#clojure – 2012-05-20

2012-05-20

00:07	amalloy	i'm pretty sure a type with 100 instance variables is a disaster
00:10	rife	unless they are stored in a list?
02:07	muhoo	is there anything like ring-mock that does cookies?
02:08	muhoo	i need to test a bunch of login crap, and it'd be great to do it from in the repl and clojure test rather than having to rely on something external
02:51	muhoo	var quoting is making me crazy
02:51	muhoo	(= POST--fubar--baz (:POST--fubar--baz @noir.core/route-funcs)) ==> true
02:52	muhoo	(var POST--fubar--baz) ==> #'foo.test/POST--fubar--baz
02:52	muhoo	but!
02:52	muhoo	(var (:POST--fubar--baz @noir.core/route-funcs)) => ASSPLODE!
02:52	muhoo	Caused by: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol
02:52	ibdknox	it's not a var
02:53	ibdknox	it's a function
02:54	ibdknox	var is also a macro that only takes symbols :)
02:54	muhoo	ah, that's what it is then
02:54	muhoo	dammit
02:57	muhoo	metadata attaches to the var, so if you assign a function to a map, only the function goes in there, not the var, and metadata goes bye-bye
02:58	muhoo	afaict, anyway
02:58	muhoo	unless you do {:foo #'thething} i guess
03:13	muhoo	i got it! about 10 hours of work for this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/2801
03:14	McMartin	What does the ~ mean? I think I recognize the rest of that syntax.
03:16	muhoo	McMartin: ~ is a reader macro that means unquote
03:16	muhoo	McMartin: http://clojure.org/cheatsheet
03:17	McMartin	Aha
03:17	muhoo	most of the punctuation stuff is at the bottom, under "reader macros"
03:17	McMartin	Got it
03:17	McMartin	My initial get-feet-wet project involved translating an ancient GW-BASIC program into Clojure in a way that minimized use of variables.
03:18	McMartin	This may not have been the greatest idea, but I have managed to write a 23-clause let binding.
03:18	McMartin	Static single assignment: not just for breakfast anymore
03:18	muhoo	that must have been barrels of fun.
03:18	McMartin	It's been an interesting challenge in several ways, and it's gotten me familiar with the many differences from Scheme (my only previous Lisp)
03:20	McMartin	(And it's a 'spreadsheet game' so this was basically replacing a big chunk of code that involved computing new values for a bunch of variables, so that's now a function that does that in a let and then shoves the relevant results into a map to return)
03:21	muhoo	nice. i'll bet after a while you'll figure out a way to rewrite it more functionally without the lets.
03:23	McMartin	Well
03:23	McMartin	These are functional
03:23	McMartin	There's two places where I needed swap!
03:23	McMartin	Or swap!.
03:23	McMartin	But those are I/O-based "ratchets" for "do this thing the first time it happens and never again", so I'm OK with hat.
03:23	McMartin	*that
03:24	McMartin	The rest were "here are the 8 things that the user has given us, now give us back the 15 or so outputs to feed into the next turn"
03:24	McMartin	Put that into a loop-recur on "status" with appropriate escapes for victory or failure, success
03:31	amalloy	McMartin: you can use ##(doc delay) for "do this once"
03:31	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([& body]); Takes a body of expressions and yields a Delay object that will invoke the body only the first time it is forced (with force or deref/@), and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent force calls. See also - realized?"
03:32	McMartin	That's pretty dirty >_>
03:32	amalloy	that's...more or less what they're for
03:32	McMartin	For one-shot I/O?
03:33	amalloy	well, not exactly, i guess. but for things you want to do at most once
03:51	muhoo	hmm, seems like memoize. though i haven't had reason to use either yet.
03:51	McMartin	Yeah, memoizing the results of a specific println seems like a sleazetastic move to me.
03:52	McMartin	Hey, success, woo
03:52	McMartin	This looks like it's working
03:52	McMartin	However, I did need to use Math/ceil so I don't get to just point it at ClojureScript for the web adaptation.
03:53	muhoo	Math.floor in js?
03:54	muhoo	js/Math.floor i suppose
03:54	McMartin	Oh, nice
03:54	McMartin	Yeah, that'd do in the one place it matters.
03:55	McMartin	Does it also have a ceil to go with floor?
03:55	muhoo	yep
04:02	fliebel	Neither Java or JS Clojure provide rational versions of those, right? Like ##(rationalize (Math/sqrt 12))
04:02	lazybot	⇒ 4330127018922193/1250000000000000
04:05	fliebel	... there is an infinite number of natural number, but there are more rational numbers, and even more real numbers.
04:07	fliebel	Unfair... ##(rationalize (Math/PI)) I had hoped it'd day something like 22/7
04:07	lazybot	⇒ 3141592653589793/1000000000000000
04:09	amalloy	fliebel: it said something pretty close to 22/7
04:12	fliebel	amalloy: i can make any float into a rational n.dddddd => ndddddd/1000000
04:14	fliebel	Also, (count natural-numbers) = Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY, (count real-numbers) = Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY so Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY < Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY = true
04:17	amalloy	&(== Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY)
04:17	lazybot	⇒ true
04:17	amalloy	oh right, it's NaN that acts weird
04:23	fliebel	amalloy: In what way?
04:24	amalloy	comparisons with NaN always return false, iirc. it's not true in clojure (which is technically incorrect IEEE stuff, i think), because clojure implements (>= x y) as (not (< x y))
04:24	amalloy	&(< NaN NaN)
04:24	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: NaN in this context
04:24	amalloy	&(< Double/NaN Double/NaN)
04:24	lazybot	⇒ false
04:25	amalloy	&(< Double/NaN 5)
04:25	lazybot	⇒ false
04:25	amalloy	&(> Double/NaN 5)
04:25	lazybot	⇒ false
04:25	amalloy	&(>= Double/NaN 5)
04:25	lazybot	⇒ false
04:25	amalloy	okay, maybe i'm wrong about clojure being incorrect. anyway, point is NaN acts weird
04:37	muhoo	batNaN
04:39	muhoo	&(str (clojure.string/join (repeat 16 Double/NaN)) ", Batman!")
04:39	lazybot	⇒ "NaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaN, Batman!"
04:45	michaelr`	BaNaNa
05:31	ghengis	I have a question
05:31	ghengis	why don't people use this form of the unless macro:
05:31	ghengis	(defmacro unless [a-test then else]
05:31	ghengis	(if (not (eval a-test)) `(do ~then) `(do ~else)))
05:32	AimHere	Because that evaluates the test at compile time
05:32	AimHere	If your test gives different results when running, then your macro will be wrong
05:33	ghengis	aha! i wondered because it works in the repl
05:34	ghengis	thx much!
06:15	gtuckerkellogg	i'm having some trouble with slime
06:15	gtuckerkellogg	when I run inf-lisp (set to "clj") I get a repl just fine
06:16	gtuckerkellogg	when I run M-x slime
06:18	raek	gtuckerkellogg: is there any reason you want to start slime this way, or do you just want to get started using the simplest method?
06:18	gtuckerkellogg	no reason at all
06:20	raek	the simplest method I know of is to _only_ install clojure-mode in emacs (i.e. no slime packages), install swank-clojure/lein-swank in leiningen and use M-x clojure-jack-in from emacs
06:20	raek	also, inferior lisp and slime are two separate ways to use a repl in emacs
06:21	gtuckerkellogg	raek, i use clojure-jack-in with leiningen projects all the time, that works great.
06:21	gtuckerkellogg	but what I want to do is run clojure from outside of leiningen as wll
06:21	gtuckerkellogg	in particular, from within org-mode src blocks
06:22	raek	how are you going to set up the classpath? have you written a custom script?
06:24	raek	gtuckerkellogg: setting up inferior lisp is easy. M-x customize-variable RET inferior-lisp-program RET
06:24	gtuckerkellogg	raek, I can use inf-lisp as well
06:24	gtuckerkellogg	what I can't seem to do is connect the org-mode clojure source blocks to the inf-lisp process
06:24	raek	there you can put the path to your clojure launcher script
06:24	gtuckerkellogg	which is why I tried slime
06:25	raek	if you use slime you need to start a swank server in a clojure process
06:26	gtuckerkellogg	so for that i need the swank-clojure package?
06:26	raek	yes
06:26	gtuckerkellogg	(which doesn't seem to be on marmalade)
06:27	raek	gtuckerkellogg: it isn't. it's a clojure library
06:27	raek	you need to make a "clj" script that puts swank-clojure on the classpath and executes a function in it on startup
06:28	raek	https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure
06:28	gtuckerkellogg	thanks!
06:28	raek	then you need to tell slime to connect to the port you started the swank server on
06:28	raek	M-x slime-connect
06:29	raek	additionally, you need to set the encoding since slime defaults to ISO 8859-1 and swank-clojure uses the more sane UTF-8
06:30	raek	M-x customize-variable RET slime-net-coding-system RET <enter "utf-8-unix">
06:30	raek	(this step is done automatically by clojure-jack-in)
06:30	raek	if you don't set that option, then slime will crash when you print a non-ascii character in the repl
06:32	raek	gtuckerkellogg: this is the entry point the swank-clojure shell wrapper uses: https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/blob/master/src/swank/swank.clj#L105
06:33	gtuckerkellogg	raek, that's extremely helpful, thank you
06:51	tordmor	Hi! I found this weird behaviour on a 4clojure problem that I don't understand:
06:51	tordmor	> (apply / '(16 8))
06:51	tordmor	is 2
06:51	tordmor	(apply (first '(/ 16 8)) '(16 8))
06:51	tordmor	is 8
06:52	tordmor	does anybody know what is going on?
06:53	Bronsa	,(apply (first '(/ 16 8)) '(16 8))
06:53	clojurebot	8
06:54	tomoj	,('/ 16 8)
06:54	clojurebot	8
06:54	tordmor	also works with other operations
06:54	tordmor	ahhhhh
06:54	Bronsa	oh.
06:54	tomoj	,('/ {'/ 2} 8)
06:54	clojurebot	2
06:54	tordmor	it doesn't recognize it as function
06:54	Bronsa	it does 'get'
06:54	tordmor	because it's still quoted
06:54	Bronsa	(get '/ 16 8)
06:54	Bronsa	,(get '/ 16 8)
06:54	clojurebot	8
06:55	tomoj	right, it's just like a keyword
06:56	tomoj	,(:foo 16 8)
06:56	clojurebot	8
06:56	tordmor	,(apply ~(first '(/ 16 8)) '(16 8))
06:56	clojurebot	#<IllegalStateException java.lang.IllegalStateException: Attempting to call unbound fn: #'clojure.core/unquote>
06:57	tomoj	,(doc resolve)
06:57	clojurebot	"([sym] [env sym]); same as (ns-resolve ns symbol) or (ns-resolve ns &env symbol)"
06:58	tomoj	,(apply (resolve '/) [16 8])
06:58	clojurebot	2
06:58	tordmor	tomoj, Thank you, that's what I need
06:59	tordmor	damn! I can't use resolve in 4clojure :(
06:59	tordmor	I'll use a map to resolve it.
07:00	tomoj	that's better even if resolve were allowed, I think
07:01	tordmor	yes, might be faster for limited operations.
08:07	madsy	Does byte-array convert each element in the collection to a byte, or does it treat each element as multiple bytes?
08:08	madsy	I need to convert a collection of floats from the range [0 65535] into signed shorts, represented as byte[]. That seems a bit tricky to do from Clojure.
08:09	madsy	I guess I could cast to short, and then split it into two bytes with bit masking
08:11	hyPiRion	So the casting would be like ##(short 65535.0)?
08:11	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Value out of range for short: 65535.0
08:13	hyPiRion	Well, that doesn't sound "easy".
08:13	madsy	hyPiRion: Well, the "real" data consists of shorts, but the javax.sound.sampled expects it as byte[]
08:14	madsy	So you would get one LSB and one MSB
08:14	madsy	But, I think I know a way. But it's clumsy.
08:14	hyPiRion	I would make a function which takes in a float and returns a vector, mapcatted the floats with the fn.
08:15	hyPiRion	Then finally just spit it into an array with (into-array Byte/TYPE %)
08:16	madsy	Wouldn't into-array just coerse a type into a single byte?
08:16	madsy	Because that's what I want to avoid.
08:18	hyPiRion	What do you mean?
08:18	hyPiRion	,(seq (into-array Byte/TYPE (map byte (range 10))))
08:18	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
08:19	hyPiRion	,(into-array Byte/TYPE (map byte (range 10)))
08:19	clojurebot	#<byte[] [B@1f67043>
08:19	madsy	,(seq (into-array Byte/TYPE (map byte (range 255 260))))
08:19	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Value out of range for byte: 255>
08:20	madsy	I need something like this (defn split-short [x] (let [lsb (bitwise-and x 255) msb (bitwise-and (bit-shift-right x 8) 255)] ... )
08:21	madsy	And store both parts
08:21	hyPiRion	Ah, so 255 -> -1 then
08:21	madsy	Sure. There is no unsigned in Java afaik
08:22	madsy	The important thing is to store the previous whole range as a group of multiple bytes.
08:22	hyPiRion	It's kind of unexpected that (byte 255) doesn't work though, because it does in Java. =/
08:22	hyPiRion	Well, maybe not unexpected, but it makes stuff more complicated.
08:24	hyPiRion	,(ubyte 255)
08:24	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: ubyte in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
09:03	madsy	hyPiRion: Jeez.. the range for byte is annoying indeed
09:05	hyPiRion	madsy: It is kind of weird though. I thought things like short -> byte coercion would be simple.
09:07	hyPiRion	Ah!
09:07	hyPiRion	madsy: ##(unchecked-byte 255)
09:07	lazybot	⇒ -1
09:08	hyPiRion	Should also work for shorts: ##(unchecked-short 65535)
09:08	lazybot	⇒ -1
09:10	madsy	hyPiRion: Nice! Thank you so much
09:11	hyPiRion	madsy: You're welcome :)
09:14	madsy	hyPiRion: I ended up with: (into-array Byte/TYPE (flatten (map #([(highest-byte %) (lowest-byte %)]) coll))
09:16	hyPiRion	Looks good. (into-array Byte/TYPE (flatten (map (juxt highest-byte lowest-byte) coll)) will do the same thing (take a look at how juxt works).
09:16	hyPiRion	You can also change the (flatten (map into (mapcat, I think that is more efficient.
09:16	tomoj	that can't be right
09:16	tomoj	,(#([1 %]) 2)
09:17	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: PersistentVector>
09:17	tomoj	you need ##((#(vector 1 %) 2)) there
09:17	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: PersistentVector
09:17	madsy	Oh, yeah I forgot about juxt
09:18	hyPiRion	,(seq (into-array Byte/TYPE (mapcat (juxt + -) (map byte (range 10)))))
09:18	clojurebot	(0 0 1 -1 2 ...)
09:18	tomoj	,byte-array
09:18	clojurebot	#<core$byte_array clojure.core$byte_array@a86868>
09:19	hyPiRion	tomoj: ##(doc byte-array)
09:19	lazybot	⇒ "([size-or-seq] [size init-val-or-seq]); Creates an array of bytes"
09:21	hyPiRion	So, in fact, you can compress the whole thing down to (byte-array (mapcat (juxt highest-byte lowest-byte) coll)
09:28	xumingmingv_	i met a weird issue about lein
09:29	xumingmingv_	one of clj file depends on another clj file, let's name it a.clj
09:29	xumingmingv_	but lein does not schedule a.clj to compile first
09:30	xumingmingv_	so i got an exception like xxxx class not be found..
09:31	hyPiRion	What version of Lein and Clojure do you use? Do you import the dependency through a :use or a :require?
09:32	xumingmingv_	i use :import
09:32	xumingmingv_	i defined a java class (:gen-class) in a.clj
09:32	xumingmingv_	for java interop
09:32	xumingmingv_	lein 1.7.1
09:33	xumingmingv_	1.4.0
09:33	raek	xumingmingv_: do you require the namespace too?
09:33	xumingmingv_	raek, no
09:33	raek	import only sets up an alias for the class name. it does not cause anything to be loaded.
09:34	xumingmingv_	so if i need to import a class defined in clj file, i need to :use or :require that clj file first?
09:34	raek	xumingmingv_: yes
09:37	xumingmingv_	rake, thanks a lot, really helped!
09:37	xumingmingv_	rake, thanks a lot, really helped
09:38	xumingmingv_	… xchat changed my words…
09:38	xumingmingv_	raek, thanks!
09:39	xumingmingv_	one more question, for example a.clj depends on b.clj, but from the output of leon, a.clj is compiled first, then b.clj is compiled, why?
09:41	xumingmingv_	león -> lein, xchat's auto-correction seems annoying
09:43	raek	xumingmingv_: the compiler begins to compile a, but when it reaches the ns form it will compile b (if it hasn't been compiled already). when b is done it will resume compiling a.
09:44	raek	compiling is just executing the top-level expressions
09:44	raek	and storing the generated bytecode
09:53	ambrosebs	I'm looking for a graph of the Clojure collection hierarchy
09:54	ambrosebs	has anyone seen one around?
09:54	ambrosebs	Writing in on ye ol' paper
09:54	Bronsa	https://github.com/Chouser/clojure-classes ?
09:55	jonasen	ambrosebs: https://github.com/Chouser/clojure-classes/blob/master/graph-w-legend.png
09:55	ambrosebs	epic!
09:55	ambrosebs	thx
09:55	Bronsa	the png is not updated
09:55	Bronsa	use the svg
10:05	ambrosebs	Bronsa: cheers
10:32	lynaghk`	ping: cemerick
10:32	cemerick	lynaghk`: hi :-)
10:32	lynaghk`	cemerick: hey chas, how's it going?
10:33	cemerick	Pretty good. On vacation.
10:33	lynaghk`	cemerick: oh, boss! Chillin' in #clojure from the beach?
10:33	cemerick	Cambridge at the moment, waiting to hear from Sam and Edmund, actually. :-)
10:33	cemerick	Beaches were earlier this year.
10:34	lynaghk`	Sam & Edmund, you'll probably need to save your energy to keep up with those two
10:35	cemerick	Per usual.
10:35	cemerick	lynaghk`: so, what's cooking?
10:35	lynaghk`	cemerick: I'm moving forward a bit on that lawyertron project you saw, and I wanted to ask you if you'd used any solid exception notification stuff on clojure/heroku stack. I'd like to start aggregating things like when certain futures timeout or raise exceptions.
10:35	cemerick	Ah, nope. I'm fundamentally a heroku noob.
10:36	lynaghk`	get emails when stuff blows up, &c. I've used New Relic on a Rails stack, but that's pretty much it in terms of adv. perf/uptime monitoring
10:38	lynaghk`	cemerick: ok, thanks. I'll keep digging around.
10:38	cemerick	There's lots of options though, most (all?) unrelated to heroku. Presumably, you could bring your own? I always get antsy about thinking about such things in a vendor-specific way, though.
10:40	lynaghk`	cemerick: yeah. My needs are pretty limited too. Mostly I want something that is easy to setup and understand, and will let me know what stuff is blowing up.
10:41	cemerick	lynaghk`: I used cloudkick for a while ~18 mos ago. They've been bought though, so I don't know where that's headed.
12:06	madsy	Could someone help me with a code snippet? I have an IllegalArgumentException (Illegal Format) I have no idea where comes from
12:07	madsy	None of the classes I use is supposed to throw that
12:07	madsy	https://gist.github.com/2758323
12:09	gfredericks	madsy: side note; I don't think importing java.lang.Math is necessary
12:09	madsy	Oh, hm. I guess javax.sound.sampled.Clip throws it. Still, I see nothing wrong with the arguments
12:09	madsy	gfredericks: Oh, thanks
12:12	gfredericks	but I don't see anything notable at a glance :/
12:13	banseljaj	Hey guys. I have been trying out the "Programming Clojure" book, and I wanted the latest version of clojure from git. I have cloned it and ran "mvn package" but I can't seem to be able to use leiningen with it. any ideas?
12:17	madsy	banseljaj: If you get the latest version of leiningen, it should fetch Clojure 1.4 for you automatically
12:17	banseljaj	madsy: I have leiningen 1.7. also, isn't 1.5 the latest one for Clojure?
12:18	madsy	banseljaj: Oh, that might be. I haven't checked.
12:18	ForNeVeR	1.5 is devel version.
12:18	madsy	There is a 2.0 of Leiningen. 1.7 is the old one
12:18	ForNeVeR	Are you sure you want it?
12:18	banseljaj	ForNeVeR: Newbie. So I'll stick with the stable
12:18	rexim	ForNeVeR: O_o
12:19	ForNeVeR	banseljaj: so use 1.4 from lein, and you'll be okay.
12:19	ForNeVeR	rexim: no u.
12:19	rexim	ForNeVeR: yes me.
12:19	ForNeVeR	//_~
12:19	banseljaj	ForNeVeR: How do I check clojure's version? (version)?
12:20	gfredericks	,clojure-version
12:20	ForNeVeR	banseljaj: `lein repl` and then clojure-version
12:20	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
12:21	gfredericks	,(type #queue [])
12:21	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: No reader function for tag queue>
12:21	gfredericks	,(type #bytes [])
12:21	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: No reader function for tag bytes>
12:22	banseljaj	user=> ,clojure-verision ; java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: clojure-verision in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
12:22	banseljaj	ForNeVeR: I get the above error.
12:22	ForNeVeR	banseljaj: remove ,
12:22	ForNeVeR	, for talking with clojure-bot
12:22	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/for, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
12:23	ForNeVeR	,'(yes sir)
12:23	clojurebot	(yes sir)
12:23	twhume	I have a sequence of predicate functions (suitable for "filter") and want to run them against a candidate sequence and return the first one that fails. What would be the most idiomatic way to do this in Clojure?
12:23	banseljaj	ForNeVeR: Same error when I remove the ","
12:23	ForNeVeR	banseljaj: it cannot be!
12:23	banseljaj	ForNeVeR: Sorry. typo
12:23	banseljaj	Okay. It says I have 1.2.1
12:24	ForNeVeR	Somewhat old version.
12:24	banseljaj	Can multiple versions of clojure reside on the same system?
12:24	raek	banseljaj: yes. leiningen takes care of that.
12:24	madsy	banseljaj: I don't see why not.
12:25	raek	each project specifies its own version
12:25	banseljaj	,(str "banseljaj" \space "is" "...")
12:25	clojurebot	"banseljaj is..."
12:25	madsy	Just give them different version number names
12:25	banseljaj	In the project.clj?
12:25	raek	yes
12:25	banseljaj	Ah.
12:25	banseljaj	I apologize if I am being too noobish. I tend to learn more by asking rather than reading.
12:25	raek	this is similar to virtualenv in python-land
12:26	banseljaj	or rvm in ruby
12:26	raek	clojure is unconventional, so don't be ashamed
12:27	banseljaj	Yes. I feel like I am learning programming from scratch.
12:27	banseljaj	Is it common to make seperate project directories to work on different projects, and downloading clojure using lein each time?
12:27	gfredericks	ForNeVeR: the comma wouldn't mess him up; it's just whitespace
12:28	ForNeVeR	gfredericks: aw, you right.
12:28	raek	banseljaj: yes. each version of clojure you use is only downloaded once, though
12:28	banseljaj	I mean Should I use "lien new play-around" and use that project for my usual testing and fooling around?
12:28	raek	yeah
12:28	ForNeVeR	Sry, I just came from evil-flooded common lisp land.
12:29	ForNeVeR	Comma is significant there.
12:29	raek	that might feel a bit odd, but there's not any simpler way currently in lein
12:29	banseljaj	Thanks raek, ForNeVeR, madsy.
12:29	raek	cake had a "global project"
12:29	banseljaj	You guys mind if I stick around here? :)
12:29	gfredericks	~guards
12:29	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
12:29	raek	lein hasn't got any global project yet, because no one has bothered adding that
12:31	banseljaj	then what is the default clojure version that is run when I use lein repl? My current install obviously uses the one that it installed with programming clojure source.
12:32	raek	banseljaj: if you run `lein repl` outside a project, you get whatever clojure version leiningen uses internally
12:32	ForNeVeR	banseljaj: that's okay. You may install another version of clojure with any project.
12:32	ForNeVeR	And get that version of clojure repl.
12:33	raek	if you run `lein repl` within a project, you get the clojure version specified in the corresponding project.clj
12:33	banseljaj	Okay. So apparently leiningen uses Clojure 1.2 internally.
12:34	raek	lein repl outside a project is mainly there for when you quickly want to try something in a clojure repl
12:34	banseljaj	Oh. Nice.
12:35	banseljaj	I come from a ruby background and it is second nature for me to fire an irb session to test my code.
12:35	raek	banseljaj: yes, lein 1.x uses clojure 1.2. lein 2.x uses 1.3 or 1.4 (not sure)
12:35	banseljaj	~guards
12:35	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
12:35	raek	banseljaj: when developing in clojure you often keep a repl open during the whole session
12:36	raek	and purely functional code is often very easy to test in a repl
12:37	banseljaj	leiningen is a standard tool for clojure development, I gather?
12:38	raek	banseljaj: yes. clojure the language comes as a jvm library.
12:38	raek	from the author of leiningen himself:
12:38	raek	"For work I use Leiningen a lot. A lot of people get confused when working with Clojure because Clojure itself is just a library rather than an application, and they expect to interact directly with it. Leiningen is that application that you interact with directly."
12:39	raek	http://phil.hagelberg.usesthis.com/
12:40	raek	it's a bit sad that clojure.org doesn't mention Leiningen in big bold letter on the front page
12:40	raek	since it is the de-facto tool
12:43	Borkdude	raek: I think clojure 1.4
12:44	Borkdude	raek: and now I'm sure
12:44	raek	ah, probably changed in preview4
12:49	banseljaj	It's my opinion, as a beginner, that clojure needs a more stream lined approach to install. :( the current approach might turn people off.
12:50	wkmanire	banseljaj: What would you change to make it better?
12:51	banseljaj	Hmm. I am totally willing to actually do this stuff.
12:51	banseljaj	For one, I would see if we can package a JVM + clojure library as a single package with most deps.
12:52	banseljaj	furthermore, as leiningen is already the standard tool, I'll probably include that in the main install package too.
12:52	banseljaj	I think it should be easy to do in *nix distros.
12:52	banseljaj	And the last thing, which would take a lot more time, is that I would fork emacs to make a clojure specific editor.
12:52	wkmanire	I've done the install on both linux and windows. On linux it was a lot easier.
12:53	banseljaj	yeah. on linux it's just sudo yum/apt-get install leiningen
12:53	Iceland_jack	banseljaj: not quite, most people recommend against that
12:54	wkmanire	I think the emacs part is unecessary. You could provide a script that configures an existing emacs installation with clojure-mode and paredit-mode and install swank-slime.
12:55	banseljaj	Well, I wouldn't know about that. I am still learning emacs.
12:56	banseljaj	Overall, Clojure is my first lisp. And I like it. a LOT
12:56	banseljaj	:D
12:57	banseljaj	I sometimes hate ubuntu
12:57	wkmanire	banseljaj: I wouldn't make light of forking emacs. he he
12:57	wkmanire	It isn't a simple project.
12:58	wkmanire	But if you install the major modes that you need and the swank slime package then you've got a perfect editor for hacking clojure.
12:59	wkmanire	banseljaj: I'm new to clojure too by the way.
12:59	banseljaj	wkmanire: woo. Another newbie. :) shakes hands
13:00	banseljaj	wkmanire: Well, The question would be how to get all the needed packages. :)
13:00	wkmanire	lein handles most things.
13:00	wkmanire	Practically all the things
13:01	wkmanire	As far as setting up emacs modes, that is all pretty simple.
13:02	wkmanire	You just have to download the required .el files, put them in your site-lisp folder, then update your ~/.emacs configuration file to include the .el files in your load path.
13:02	wkmanire	You could probably use package-mode too to install the modes from marmalade.
13:03	banseljaj	wkmanire: Yeah. I'm gonna use emacs starter kit
13:03	wkmanire	Lots of options. In the case of setting up emacs, I would only suggest writing a tutorial. There already are tutorials for most things.
13:03	banseljaj	is maven repo down or some thing? Lein is not downloading the list.
13:08	madsy	Funky.. my problem seems to be OpenJDK's fault :/
13:15	raek	banseljaj: if you decide to make a stream lined installer for "clojure", please make sure you know how clojure development is done in practice first
13:16	raek	if you use leiningen (which most people do), there is no need to install clojure or any libraries.
13:17	raek	since those are handled as project dependencies
13:23	madsy	Sigh.. so javax.sound.sampled is broken in Linux with OpenJDK. Is there something else I can use for sound which actually works?
13:28	banseljaj	<raek> banseljaj: if you decide to make a stream lined installer for "clojure", please make sure you know how clojure development is done in practice first -- I shall keep that in mind. Until I know enough, I will not venture into contributing crucial pieces of software
13:30	wkmanire	he he he
13:30	wkmanire	banseljaj: I say shoot for the sky.
13:30	wkmanire	If it's good, it'll stick
13:30	wkmanire	if it isn't, you'll find out why.
13:30	Borkdude	banseljaj: what would you install? a jdk ?
13:31	banseljaj	Borkdude: I'd probably use a standlone jdk installed just for clojure. I seem to remember one such package using this kind of approach. just can't remember which it was.
13:31	devn	good weekend all
13:32	wkmanire	Hidevn
13:32	banseljaj	,(str "Hi " 'devn)
13:32	clojurebot	"Hi devn"
13:32	Borkdude	banseljaj: what would be useful maybe is a small linux distro with a jdk + some pre-configured IDEs like Eclipse + counterclockwise/leiningen, Emacs, Netbeans, IntelliJ and a version of leiningen thoroughly tested
13:33	wkmanire	Borkdude: Now that sounds like awesome.
13:33	Borkdude	banseljaj: so people can just load that up in their favorite VM program to get to work real quick
13:33	banseljaj	Borkdude: In my expreience, that would be rather easy to build than my solution. :D
13:34	wkmanire	Completely removes all barriers to entry except for knowing how to either install an OS or load a VM.
13:34	banseljaj	Well, I can't promise anything to the community but I think I should have something capable of running and failing in about two months or so. :D
13:34	Borkdude	VirtualBox is free and runs on linux/OSX/windows
13:34	banseljaj	wkmanire: Well, that can be handled quite easily.
13:35	Borkdude	you would just have to provide an image for that with all good defaults set
13:35	raek	banseljaj: please do contribute! but don't forget to gather feedback from other clojurians...
13:35	banseljaj	Yeah. an iso, cross compiled.
13:35	Borkdude	labrepl already installed, + other nice things
13:35	wkmanire	Borkdude: labrepl?
13:35	banseljaj	raek: No. I'd work in secret on this. and take over the world. :D
13:36	Borkdude	Clubuntuj ? ;)
13:36	banseljaj	wkmanire: it's a clojure lab web app
13:36	wkmanire	Borkdude: That hurt my eyeballs.
13:36	banseljaj	Borkdude: ubuntu is not a good candidate IMO
13:36	devn	Borkdude: it was used in the pragprog training by rich and stu ages ago
13:36	devn	i havent looked at it in awhile, but it was maintained once upon a beard
13:36	Borkdude	cljarch linux
13:37	wkmanire	Plain old debian+clojure. Clebian.
13:37	banseljaj	Well, I'm gonna build a very basic setup and I'll report her.
13:37	wkmanire	Clojure and debian for the plebians.
13:37	banseljaj	Clebian is a nice name. :D
13:37	banseljaj	But we need one with a flair. :D
13:37	banseljaj	One that is not a blatant ripoff. :P
13:38	matessim	my copy of Clojure programming arrived NOW!
13:38	matessim	TIEM for world domination
13:38	matessim	but first, we read.
13:38	banseljaj	What would be funny is if it's named clebian but it's based on fedora. :D
13:38	devn	I like Clebian
13:38	banseljaj	matessim: CONGRATULATION!
13:39	Borkdude	wkmanire: cljnux
13:39	devn	aw bummer, clebian wouldn't be spelled right: "plebeian"
13:40	devn	plus it has negative connotations
13:40	devn	so nevermind
13:40	Borkdude	clojuxt
13:40	devn	juxtify
13:40	banseljaj	Lambda?
13:40	Borkdude	or just "clojure linux"
13:41	banseljaj	Borkdude: Boooooring!
13:41	devn	or just "linux with clojure in it"
13:41	devn	if it doesnt have a super sweet name we cant get people who try anything with a sweet name to download it
13:41	raek	what would this distro contain?
13:41	banseljaj	Kappanix
13:41	banseljaj	Kappa = klojure
13:41	wkmanire	:(
13:41	devn	it sort of sounds like kernel panics
13:42	devn	kappanix
13:42	Borkdude	Damn functional linux
13:42	raek	a JVM, leiningen + swank-clojure, emacs + emacs-starter-kit + clojure-mode?
13:42	banseljaj	raek: Latest Clojure, OPen jdk, labrepl, and IDEs already set up for use with Clojure
13:42	wkmanire	DFL has the CLJ and the JVM and the FUN!
13:42	devn	"Cloy"
13:42	raek	banseljaj: what do you mean by latest clojure?
13:42	wkmanire	Borkdude: ^
13:42	devn	Cloy would be a cool distro name
13:43	banseljaj	raek: The latest stable release preinstalled and updatable using lein
13:43	banseljaj	devn: Cloy is nice'
13:43	devn	nono wait
13:43	devn	i got it
13:43	devn	cloister.
13:43	Borkdude	cloy?
13:43	devn	done and done.
13:43	raek	banseljaj: how would you use this installed clojure version?
13:43	devn	cloy means to disgust with an excess of richness or sweetness
13:43	uvtc	banseljaj, on Debian-based systems, it's pretty easy to apt-get install openjdk-6-jdk, then grab lein and start working. Maybe I'm not understanding what problem you're trying to solve.
13:43	banseljaj	java -cp local-version.jar
13:44	devn	cloister is a convent, monastery, college, or cathedral
13:44	jonh	i love this idea of a clojurating system
13:44	progo	lambdax
13:44	banseljaj	uvtc: the problem is to get a unified standard starting system that lets you start with repl immediately
13:44	Borkdude	linuxen… a clojure linux distro to get started without setting your hair on fire
13:44	raek	personally, I'm sceptical to going back to "java -cp clojure.jar" or "clojure scripts"
13:44	raek	now that we have Leiningen
13:44	Borkdude	leinuxen
13:45	Borkdude	or leinux
13:45	devn	leinux
13:45	uvtc	banseljaj, `lein new foo; cd foo; lein repl` is pretty immediate though.
13:45	banseljaj	the good names so far: Leinuxen, lambdax, cloister and kappanix
13:45	devn	im still going with cloy or cloister, because then you get carcassonne fans as a two for one
13:45	raek	well, I can appect this: alias clojure='lein repl'
13:46	Borkdude	I like leinux as a tribute to leiningen… I don't know carcasonne
13:46	banseljaj	uvtc: Not on windows. and that still doesn't set up the different editors/IDE
13:46	banseljaj	uvtc: Just bouncing ideas. :)
13:46	uvtc	banseljaj, Ah.
13:46	banseljaj	<Borkdude> I like leinux as a tribute to leiningen… -- +1
13:47	devn	cloister just wins -- sorry, but im stuck in the mud on that name
13:47	devn	:)
13:47	raek	banseljaj: I think the "java -cp ..." approach is bad for noobs, since becomes significanly complicated when need to done any of:
13:47	banseljaj	devn: Two votes for Leinux. :P
13:47	banseljaj	raek: noobs would just use a shortcut on the desktop.
13:47	wkmanire	What did I miss?
13:47	raek	1) load code from source files (!)
13:48	wkmanire	May laptop ate all the battery.
13:48	raek	2) use external libraries
13:48	raek	3) integrate with editors
13:48	jonh	devn: i to think cloister is win
13:48	jonh	too
13:49	banseljaj	wkmanire: the good names so far: Leinuxen, lambdax, cloister and kappanix
13:49	banseljaj	raek: that's the idea.
13:49	raek	banseljaj: be sure to include documentation on how to begin "real development"...
13:50	banseljaj	raek: A local mirror of docs and sources would be nice. :)
13:50	raek	we get a lot of people in this channel who are halfway though implementing their own Leiningen because they started with one of the "clojure scripts"
13:51	banseljaj	Also, if there is a good open source book, or one that can be released with the linux, that'd make it frickin complete
13:51	wkmanire	banseljaj: Well, there are some really good books
13:51	raek	banseljaj: a link to the Leiningen readme on the desktop
13:51	raek	essential.
13:52	wkmanire	and the authors are in #clojure all of the time.
13:52	wkmanire	So their books tend to get recommended.
13:52	wkmanire	I'm currently working through Cemerick's new book on my kindle.
13:53	jonh	which book is that?
13:53	Borkdude	I think a VM would be nice to try things out without installing things on your machine (IDEs) and see how it should work if it works (not if it doesn't work on your own machine because of some weird thing)
13:54	devn	jonh: joy of clojure, clojure programming, programming clojure, practical clojure
13:54	devn	i mean honestly without exception the authors of books hang out in here at one time or another
13:54	devn	but id say joy of clojure and clojure programming have the most presence as of late
13:55	Borkdude	the thing I learned so far from CP is that Ruby has a really weird synta
13:55	Borkdude	x
13:56	wkmanire	Borkdude: Yes it do.
13:56	wkmanire	Borkdude: Very oddish. But I'd still take ruby's syntax over C++ any day. :D
13:56	wkmanire	And I'm not even a rubyist. I fell in with the Python camp.
13:57	Borkdude	wkmanire: I like Python's syntax better
13:57	banseljaj	Borkdude: I don't find it weird. but then again, ruby was my first language.♥
13:57	wkmanire	banseljaj: Ahhh, first love.
13:57	Borkdude	wkmanire: one thing in Python though: variables introduced in for loops are global, wtf?
13:58	banseljaj	Borkdude: Python's syntax is cleaner. I personally don't work well with indentation. :(
13:58	Borkdude	banseljaj: GW Basic was my first language
13:58	Borkdude	then Turbo Pascal
13:58	Borkdude	no first Turbo Basic
13:59	banseljaj	Borkdude: GW BASIC was the forst one I did, but never did actual programming, i.e problam solving, until ruby.
13:59	Borkdude	I was so happy when I could compile my own executables… :-)
13:59	banseljaj	Borkdude: that feeling is indeed awesome. :D
14:00	banseljaj	As programmers go, I belong to the breed that has a profession that has nothing to do with programming. :D
14:00	jonh	devn: thanks, I just started clojure a few days ago and purchased the joy of clojure; so far so good :P)
14:01	Borkdude	banseljaj: what is your profession?
14:01	banseljaj	I'm 99% doctor.
14:01	banseljaj	(meaning months away from graduation)
14:01	Borkdude	banseljaj: doctor meaning PhD? in what field?
14:02	banseljaj	Doctor meaning MD. Specializing in psychiiatry
14:02	banseljaj	s/Psychiiatry/Psychiatry
14:02	Borkdude	banseljaj: ah ok
14:03	Borkdude	banseljaj: maybe you can do a research on clojure as a therapy or why it is so addictive ;)
14:03	jonh	so you can help us after we go clinically insane
14:03	jonh	or that
14:03	banseljaj	I think jonh's idea is better. :P
14:04	banseljaj	Clojure Therapy: A new frontier in recovering Imperative/Object-Oriented Programmers.
14:04	Borkdude	banseljaj: I have a mutability trauma…
14:05	Borkdude	banseljaj: can you help me?
14:05	banseljaj	Borkdude: take a seat and tell me where it touched you.
14:05	wkmanire	99% doctor? Is that contagious?
14:05	Borkdude	banseljaj: I think we have to go back to my childhood, GW BAsic
14:06	wkmanire	Borkdude: I started with QBasic.
14:06	wkmanire	:D It was awesome.
14:06	banseljaj	wkmanire: Nope. :)
14:06	jonh	can i get a "shut up and take my money!!!" ?
14:06	uvtc	uh oh, Borkdude is regressing. :)
14:06	Borkdude	wkmanire: I also used that, in the later versions of DOS
14:06	wkmanire	Borkdude: I print'd, circle'd, line'd and pset'd the night away.
14:06	wkmanire	many many weekends.
14:06	banseljaj	GW BASIC was the thing that hooked me on computers. :)
14:07	wkmanire	Borkdude: Have you ever seen the QBasic Nerd video on youtube?
14:07	Borkdude	wkmanire: no
14:07	wkmanire	It is practically the anthem of my childhood.
14:07	wkmanire	hold on, I'll link it for you
14:07	Borkdude	(on a sidenote, has anyone tried microcontroller programming as a hobby here?)
14:07	wkmanire	Borkdude: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mal6XbN5cEg
14:09	banseljaj	Borkdude: Nope. I didn't actually have my own computer till 2003.
14:11	Borkdude	wkmanire: you didn't make this video, did you? ;)
14:11	wkmanire	Can I use tags with clojure in emacs?
14:11	wkmanire	Borkdude: No, it wasn't me actually.
14:11	wkmanire	I wish it were.
14:11	wkmanire	Borkdude: Pretty kick ass though right?
14:11	banseljaj	wkmanire: Is that you? :D
14:12	wkmanire	No, I'm much prettier with my bald head and red beard.
14:12	banseljaj	:D
14:12	Borkdude	wkmanire: well, it reminds me of my childhood as well, but it doesn't included mod tracker software and floppy disks
14:12	webben	wkmanire: Good grief. via that video. people still program stuff in qbasic: http://www.qbasicstation.com/
14:12	clojurebot	profiles in clj-http is https://gist.github.com/1846759 an example of the profiles feature in Leiningen 2
14:13	Borkdude	wkmanire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RpB41Txa9M
14:15	Borkdude	I never had the fun I had in programming as a kid in GW BASIC until I discovered Common Lisp and now Clojure though
14:15	wkmanire	Borkdude: Cool video.
14:16	wkmanire	webben: I still hack a little QB when I'm feeling nostalgiac.
14:16	wkmanire	webben: Usually with a few beers.
14:17	Borkdude	.bat scripts are nostalgia and also still reality (leiningen ;))
14:17	Borkdude	show me your autoexec.bat and I'll show my .emacs/init.el? :
14:17	Borkdude	:P
14:18	banseljaj	I never did .bat scripts.
14:18	banseljaj	Windoze is for video games. :)
14:18	Borkdude	I wonder what would attract kids to programming when growing up with Windows right now
14:19	wkmanire	I want to browse through use's of a particular function in a project.
14:19	Borkdude	clearly in the 80ies it was GW Basic on DOS
14:19	wkmanire	can I set up tags to do that with clojure?
14:19	Borkdude	maybe Apple had something like it too? I didn't know much people with Apples then
14:19	wkmanire	Borkdude: Back in the day you could actually produce a box-on-the-shelf quality video game by yourself as a 16 year old.
14:19	wkmanire	Borkdude: That was pretty attractive.
14:20	wkmanire	Not really feasible anymore.
14:20	Borkdude	wkmanire: maybe the web is now more attractive, javascript?
14:20	Borkdude	wkmanire: what would a child try to make I mean just for fun
14:20	misislavski	What's a good alternative to (format) in ClojureScript?
14:20	wkmanire	"Oh wow! I make some text appear on the screen look at that!" -- 16 year old in the 80`s
14:21	wkmanire	"THis is so lame! How do I do 3d stuff?" -- 16 year old in 2012.
14:21	Bronsa	lol
14:21	Borkdude	wkmanire: I wrote programs on paper when I was 12 and bored with arithmetic, I used to type it over when I arrived home
14:21	wkmanire	Borkdude: Yes, I think Javascript is probably the winner of today. You can make things work on your mobile phone appendage.
14:22	banseljaj	I agree.
14:22	eggsby	Borkdude: were they BASIC programs
14:22	Borkdude	eggsby: yes, including line numbers
14:22	eggsby	:p
14:22	wkmanire	Ahhh.. Beginners All Purpose Symbolic Instruction Language. I still remember the acronym.
14:22	banseljaj	I attracted my little cousins to OOP by setting them up at irb.
14:23	eggsby	my first language was js then java
14:23	banseljaj	eggsby: You are closer to my age then. :D
14:24	Borkdude	eggsby: banseljaj what age are we talking?
14:25	banseljaj	Dragon Age, Obviously
14:25	wkmanire	Looks like ctags works on lisp.... I hope it works on clojure.
14:25	eggsby	I'm 23, I'd wager you're late 30s early to mid 40s Borkdude ?
14:25	Borkdude	31
14:25	eggsby	:(
14:25	wkmanire	Nope, it looks for defun
14:25	wkmanire	:(
14:26	wkmanire	eggsby: What do you wager for me? Hmm? hmm?
14:26	Borkdude	eggsby: why :( ?
14:26	eggsby	cause my guess was incorrect!
14:26	banseljaj	+this year
14:27	banseljaj	wkmanire: You are like 35 OSLT
14:27	banseljaj	+/- 5
14:27	raek	wkmanire: have you tried using M-. with slime?
14:27	Borkdude	I remember seeing Java for the first time… public static void main(String [] args) wtf?
14:28	eggsby	honestly, I was interested in programming in highschool, so I took a java class.. it really turned me off
14:28	Borkdude	it didn't really invite me to explore any further
14:28	eggsby	'why is there so much ceremony just to do this simple thing'
14:28	Borkdude	they should have used GW BASIC for web applications… GW BASIC EE
14:29	banseljaj	I read "SAMS teach yourself java in 24 hours'. I got distracted around hour 8, never went back. :(
14:30	eggsby	smalltalk webdev
14:30	Borkdude	banseljaj: did they recommend 24 hours in one go? ;)
14:30	raek	wkmanire: it probably doesn't use etags/ctags under the hood, but provide a similar interface
14:30	eggsby	every url is an object
14:30	wkmanire	eggsby: 26
14:30	wkmanire	ha ha
14:30	wkmanire	raek: Looking, sorry for the delay. Had to discipline my offspring.
14:31	wkmanire	raek: M-. definition not found.
14:31	wkmanire	eggsby: I started young. 12 years old or so.
14:31	raek	wkmanire: which version of swank-clojure / lein-swank do you use?
14:31	eggsby	nice
14:32	eggsby	I didn't get serious about dev until about 3 years ago
14:32	raek	and did you use clojure-jack-in or another approach?
14:32	wkmanire	raek: Yes, that's what I used.
14:32	pandeiro	wkmanire: are you from MT originally?
14:32	wkmanire	raek: I forgot which version of swank-clojure I have, how do I check that?
14:33	wkmanire	pandeiro: Não. I was born in Texas and grew up in Las Vegas.
14:33	raek	wkmanire: if you use lein 1.x, check your ~/.lein/plugins/ directory
14:33	wkmanire	1.4.2
14:33	raek	hrm
14:34	pandeiro	wkmanire: ah ok, you don't sound like an ESLer come to think of it
14:34	raek	also, M-. requires the code to be loaded before it can find it. have you required all involved namespaces?
14:34	wkmanire	pandeiro: He he. No. English was my first language. I am fluent in portuguese too.
14:34	wkmanire	pandeiro: I started learning about 4 years ago.
14:34	wkmanire	raek: I would do that from the repl?
14:34	pandeiro	you moved to brasil 4 years ago?
14:35	raek	wkmanire: (require 'my.namespace)
14:35	wkmanire	pandeiro: No, 3 months ago. But I've been visiting every year.
14:35	pandeiro	cool, i moved down here when i was 22, 8 years ago
14:35	raek	after that, M-. should be able to find all functions in that namespace and all namespaces it uses, etc
14:35	raek	C-c C-k in the buffer does the same thing
14:35	raek	(the source file buffer)
14:36	wkmanire	raek: ha ha ha, I know how to load a namespace. I mean if I require everything from the REPL will it do the trick?
14:36	raek	yes
14:36	raek	ah, sorry. I misread what you said... :-)
14:36	wkmanire	pandeiro: Where from?
14:37	raek	wkmanire: M-. works for me with swank-clojure-1.4.2
14:37	eggsby	I just watched that documentary 'wasteland', so beautiful
14:37	eggsby	you seen it wkmanire ?
14:37	pandeiro	wkmanire: southern california
14:38	wkmanire	pandeiro: Interesting. Why'd you move to Brazil?
14:38	wkmanire	Do you have Brazillian parents?
14:38	wkmanire	raek: No luck so far.
14:38	pandeiro	wkmanire: no, Brazilian wife and now a Brazilian kid :)
14:39	wkmanire	pandeiro: I'm about to marry one myself.
14:39	banseljaj	<Borkdude> banseljaj: did they recommend 24 hours in one go? ;) Nope. But i sure took it that way. :D
14:39	pandeiro	oh good luck with that
14:39	raek	wkmanire: does it work if you put the point inside let in a (let [...] ...) and press M-. ?
14:39	pandeiro	;(
14:39	pandeiro	that was supposed to be a ;) but freud etc..
14:39	wkmanire	We're still working on the kid. It's hard work. :D
14:39	raek	wkmanire: I just realized a thing. what clojure-mode version do you use?
14:39	pandeiro	yeah for me it was 'um chute um gol'
14:40	wkmanire	ha ha ha ha
14:40	raek	M-: (clojure-mode-version) RET
14:40	wkmanire	1.11.5
14:40	raek	same as mine...
14:41	wkmanire	raek: I'm obviously doing it wrong.
14:41	wkmanire	:/
14:41	wkmanire	pandeiro: We're working on the I129F visa. One month to go in the wait.
14:41	Borkdude	The nice thing in Python is that you can make smileys to get things from indexed collections, s = 1, X = [1,2,3], X[:-s]
14:41	wkmanire	pandeiro: I'm so tired of all of this visa crap.
14:41	raek	wkmanire: C-h k M-. shows the help for slime-edit-definition for me. what does it show for you?
14:42	wkmanire	raek: Same.
14:42	raek	:/ indeed
14:42	wkmanire	It's just telling me definition not found for whatever I try it on.
14:43	pandeiro	wkmanire: having a kid was the easiest way for me to normalize; i was here 5 years illegally before that
14:43	raek	wkmanire: in the repl or in a source file buffer?
14:43	pandeiro	process was relatively painless actually
14:43	wkmanire	pandeiro: Damn. Hell of a risk, that.
14:43	wkmanire	pandeiro: We're trying to live in the states though, not Brazil.
14:43	wkmanire	raek: IN the source file buffer.
14:44	raek	wkmanire: and M-. on the word "let" fails too?
14:44	wkmanire	raek: No, that works.
14:44	pandeiro	wkmanire: that is definitely more complicated.. was hard for my partner to get a visa
14:45	wkmanire	pandeiro: Mine was turned down on the tourist visa, which is why I'm here now.
14:45	raek	ok, so then it works (partially). it just cannot find your own definitions?
14:45	wkmanire	pandeiro: This fiancé visa aughta work out though.
14:45	wkmanire	raek: Yeah. I'm working on refheap. Raynes asked me to add to the API.
14:46	raek	wkmanire: and you ran C-c C-k in the buffer?
14:46	wkmanire	raek: but I'm having trouble getting refheap.models.api to load in the REPL.
14:46	wkmanire	raek: error: java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: (connection? conn), compiling:(paste.clj:22
14:47	raek	wkmanire: ok, this sounds like an issue with the refheap code and not with M-.
14:48	wkmanire	raek: Agreed.
14:49	wkmanire	pandeiro: Recently the US government relaxed quite a bit with Brazilians entering the country. I'm hoping that will help our case too.
14:49	wkmanire	pandeiro: You'd think it'd be enough to fall in love right?
14:49	wkmanire	That was the easiest part. sigh
14:49	pandeiro	wkmanire: now that brasil's coming along yeah, dont think either country will require a visa soon
14:49	wkmanire	raek: Thank you for your help.
14:50	wkmanire	pandeiro: The two countries only stand to gain by working together.
14:52	pandeiro	wkmanire: good luck with your process, i'm sure it'll work out. if you're ever in SP drop me a line. email is nick @gmail
14:53	wkmanire	pandeiro: I usually pass through sp entering and leaving the country.
14:53	wkmanire	But I've only left the airport once.
14:53	wkmanire	:D thanks for the invitation though. I'm sure I'll end up in sp for more than a day eventually.
14:55	banseljaj	Hmm. labrepl won't run. I wonder why it throwsa a ClassNotFoundException
15:11	Borkdude	how does keynote compare to powerpoint on mac, is it easier to use etc? any experience?
15:11	Borkdude	I'm asking this because I copy pasted some clojure code to powerpoint which turns out very urgly
15:11	Borkdude	ugly
15:11	Borkdude	and I can't get the highlighting in order
15:12	banseljaj	Borkdude: Interop between them is tough.
15:12	banseljaj	but PP is pretty awesome in its own right
15:13	ghengis	i can usually preserve syntax coloring when cutting and pasting from eclipse -> word/lotus notes, etc
15:13	Borkdude	ghengis: did you try Eclipse -> Powerpoint?
15:14	ghengis	nope
15:14	Borkdude	ghengis: I always have to fix the indenting and coloring
15:14	Borkdude	ghengis: but maybe I'm doing something stupid
15:14	ghengis	i haven't used powerpoint in ages
15:15	Borkdude	I use latex/beamer for other presentations but in this one I want to be able to change the code in a wysiwyg fashion
15:19	ghengis	all I know is that eclipse is one of the few editors that preserves coloring on the clipboard
15:20	banseljaj	Borkdude: There is a Latex editor that also has WYSIWYG
15:20	banseljaj	In othernews, suddenly lein has stopped working
15:23	ghengis	so i asked last night, why this implementation of unless is bad
15:23	ghengis	(defmacro unless [atest then else] (if (eval atest) then else))
15:24	Bronsa	(defmacro unless [atest then else] `(if ~atest ~then ~else))
15:24	Bronsa	well
15:24	Bronsa	(defmacro unless [atest then else] (list 'if atest then else))
15:24	Bronsa	ghengis: defmacro should produce a list
15:25	raek	ghengis: one reason it is bad is because it does not behave the same as Bronsa's definition
15:25	banseljaj	Umm. Guys, halp. lein and lein2 refuse to run repl.
15:25	ghengis	in the repl, it works, but i understand in compilation, it's different
15:25	Borkdude	banseljaj: what OS are you on?
15:26	banseljaj	Borkdude: Linux. ubuntu 12.04
15:26	Bronsa	well, ghengis's unless does the conditional at compile-time
15:26	raek	ghengis: don't you expect <a> in (if <a> <b> <c>) to be evaluated each time the if is evaluated?
15:26	Borkdude	banseljaj: does it look like this issue? https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/582
15:26	raek	ghengis: note that (let [x 1] (unless (= x 1) ... ...)) fails, because x is not avaiable there
15:27	raek	all expressions passed to eval are evaluated as if they were on the top level
15:27	Borkdude	banseljaj: in other words, a hanging REPL
15:27	raek	(so you can't use any local variables)
15:27	banseljaj	Borkdude: Nope. It just crashes even before repl starts.
15:27	ghengis	yeah, i see now
15:28	raek	banseljaj: can you post the stackrace (or other error message) you get?
15:28	ghengis	raek: that's a good test
15:28	banseljaj	Just a minute
15:28	raek	ghengis: a macro like that can be useful, but I wouldn't name it "unless". "compile-time-unless" would perhaps be better
15:29	banseljaj	raek, Borkdude:https://gist.github.com/9088572fce73895b60a0 --this shows everyhting I did
15:30	Borkdude	banseljaj: don't call your project clojure
15:30	banseljaj	Oh.
15:30	banseljaj	facepalm
15:31	raek	yeah, the project name interacts with the clojure runtime in surprising ways...
15:31	banseljaj	That was my problem?
15:31	wkmanire	raek: Turned out to be a problem with me. Not even a problem with refheap.
15:31	wkmanire	raek: I didn't load a needed dependency.
15:32	raek	banseljaj: when you created a project called "clojure", leiningen created a file called clojure/core.clj. this file shadows all definitions of clojure.core
15:32	banseljaj	Yes. it works now.
15:32	banseljaj	raek: Ahh.
15:33	banseljaj	raek and Borkdude, thanks. :)
15:33	raek	so 1) don't choose a project name that is already taken 2) don't choose a project name that is the same as a function in clojure.core
15:34	raek	2) causes problems if you name your project "test"
15:35	banseljaj	I am now going to set up emacs for y laptop. :)
15:36	wkmanire	banseljaj: There is no try.
15:36	wkmanire	banseljaj: There is only `do
15:36	raek	banseljaj: make sure you follow the official docs (clojure-mode)
15:37	raek	never trust the first result on google on how to setup your clojure dev tools
15:37	banseljaj	raek: I was gonna get the emacs starter kit
15:37	Raynes	raek: Boy, don't you be talkin' bout my code now.
15:38	raek	banseljaj: good choice
15:38	Raynes	It was actually just the mongodb connection hadn't been set up because server.clj hadn't been loaded.
15:38	raek	then the clojure emacs install process is just M-x package-install RET clojure-mode RET
15:41	raek	then install swank-clojure using the steps in its readme and you're all set
15:42	banseljaj	raek: Thanks. :)
15:43	madsy	Do I have to do something special to access static members inside nested class in a class?
15:43	Raynes	raek: I expect a written apology in my P.O. box by Tuesday.
15:43	madsy	(Foo/Bar Baz.Bal.someStaticVariable)
15:43	madsy	Baz.Bal isn't found even though I imported Baz
15:53	muhoo	is there a lein-ish tool to search all the clj files in a classpath for a particular string or function?
15:54	muhoo	i mean, i could write in bash in a few minutes, and might do, but if there were already something inside lein to do it, that'd be neat
16:00	muhoo	arrrgh, found it. compojure 1.0.4 requires ring-core 1.1.0, but couch-session requires ring-core 1.0.0, so that is what is getting pulled in https://www.refheap.com/paste/2804
16:01	muhoo	is this a bug in lein, or in maven, or do i have something misconfigured?
16:04	arohner	muhoo: that's kind of the design of maven
16:05	pandeiro	muhoo: i had that the other day but didn't have time to investigate.. gave up on couch-session for now.. i had bumped the version numbers a while ago but it doesn't work with ring 1.1.0
16:05	arohner	changing the order of your deps will change which one wins, I think
16:05	arohner	a more clear solution is to use :excludes in your deps
16:05	arohner	sorry, :exclusions [foo/bar baz/baz]
16:08	muhoo	pandeiro: hmm, thanks, you may have saved me hours of going around in circles!
16:09	muhoo	but couch session store is in my critical path, so, if it don't work, i'ma gonna hafta fix it. sigh
16:10	muhoo	it's only like > 100 loc anyway
16:10	muhoo	< 100
16:10	muhoo	infix operators confuse me now
16:14	pandeiro	muhoo: i am planning on doing that this week too if time permits, the previous ring/clutch bump only needed a few small changes
16:20	muhoo	pandiero: should we coordinate on that then? do you have a fork of it or are you working on sritchie's?
16:20	michaelr`	if jswat doesn't show any locals and watches what does it mean? I've connected it to a java program
16:23	muhoo	pandeiro: nm, i see you in the commit history
16:23	pandeiro	muhoo: i had a fork but deleted it after sritchie merged my changes back... i will fork again now, try to hit this on wednesday probably? unless you do it for us :)
16:26	muhoo	i'd like to get to it before wednesday. if i fix it for then, i'll send both you and sritchie a pull request
16:26	muhoo	if not, we can connect then, sure
16:28	pandeiro	muhoo: if it turns out to be something complicated, let me know here and i'll take a look earlier.. i just have a deliverable for this tuesday
16:29	muhoo	sounds good, thanks
16:40	raek	madsy: the java language hides something here. the Bal class name is acutally Baz.Bal
16:40	raek	sorry, is actually Baz$Bal
16:41	raek	so you need to import that class and then write Baz$Bal/someStaticVariable
16:43	raek	(this is mentioned briefly under "The Dot special form" at http://clojure.org/java_interop)
16:49	ghengis	i think this is my problem in a nutshell
16:49	ghengis	i need a macro like (make-let [a b c] [1 2 3] (+ a b c)) => 6
16:49	ghengis	where make-let expands to:
16:49	ghengis	(let [a 1 b 2 c 3] (+ a b c))
16:50	Vinzent	ghengis, why do you need that?
16:51	ghengis	for a larger macro i'm writing
16:51	Vinzent	why can't the larger macro generate [a 1 b 2 c 3] if it can generate [a b c] and [1 2 3]?
16:51	ghengis	i want to accept forms like [a b c] and bind them to values taken from a list
16:51	clojurebot	eg, https://github.com/clojure/tools.logging is the new version of clojure.contrib.logging
16:52	madsy	raek: Thanks
16:52	gfredericks	(defmacro make-let [a b & cs] `(let [~@(mapcat vector a b)] ~@cs))
16:52	raek	ghengis: why not (let [[a b c] [1 2 3]] (+ a b c)) ?
16:52	Vinzent	ghengis, it actually sounds like destructing
16:52	Vinzent	ah, yeah
16:52	ghengis	oh my
16:52	ghengis	that's brilliant :)
16:52	ghengis	at least from my perspective :)
16:53	ghengis	i think that'll work great
16:53	gfredericks	I like raek's idea. not sure who you're reacting to.
16:53	ghengis	raek
17:01	pandeiro	where does lein-cljsbuild stash the google closure lib and clojurescript?
17:18	emezeske	Anyone know if there's a mirror for the clojure JIRA workflow doc (http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/JIRA+workflow) ?
17:18	emezeske	Seems down right now
17:18	emezeske	Nevermind, google cache seems recent
17:50	fmw	I get No matching field found: getRoot for class clojure.lang.Var when running tests from emacs using clojure-swank in Clojure 1.3.0 and 1.4.0. Does anyone have a fix for this? I'm running swank-clojure 1.4.4
17:54	raek	fmw: are you sure you don't have multiple swank versions in ~/.lein/plugins/ or that no deps pull in another version into lib/?
17:55	fmw	raek: let me check.
17:55	raek	I recall having seen this error before, but I think it has been fixed
17:56	fmw	raek: yes, I've seen it before too and I think it has been fixed too - it turns out I have an old version in ~/.lein/plugins so let me check what happens when I remove it!
17:59	fmw	raek: ok, I removed the old file, removed my libs/ directory in my project directory and ran lein clean, but still getting the error. I guess some old version must be lurking around still.
18:01	madsy	Is there a better way to iterate over Java arrays than this? https://gist.github.com/2759686
18:01	madsy	My input order is pretty weird :)
18:01	raek	fmw: a dependency could pull in an old version. does swank-clojure appear in lib/ after you do a lein deps?
18:01	madsy	I'm probably missing something which was made specifically for this. amap, doseq or something
18:01	amalloy	madsy: just call seq on the array? i can't even find the code your asking about in that swarm of printlns
18:02	amalloy	*you're. oh god
18:02	raek	(doseq [element array] ...operations...) works for java arrays too
18:02	fmw	raek: yes, it seems there is a 1.4.0 version in lib/ for some reason, instead of 1.4.4
18:02	emezeske	madsy: You should use doseq instead of for/map (which are lazy)
18:03	emezeske	madsy: Also, (do (println ...) nil) is equivalent to just (println ...)
18:03	madsy	emezeske: Yeah, I was just confused about the order.
18:03	raek	fmw: one thing you can do is to add an :exclusions entry to your project.clj
18:03	madsy	Which probably is caused by the laziness
18:03	madsy	Thanks again
18:04	raek	fmw: and instruct the library author to remote swank-clojure from the library project.clj
18:04	raek	plugins and profiles are better suited for stuff like swank
18:04	fmw	raek: I'm guilty of putting it in my project.clj too, I realize that this is not good now ;)
18:05	raek	fmw: well, it used to be the correct way to do it... :-)
18:06	raek	the swank-clojure readme lists the current best practices for using it
18:06	raek	which differs a bit depending on your lein version
18:09	fmw	raek: ah, so putting it in :plugins for project.clj is not a problem?
18:09	fmw	because they are not pulled in if you're project is a dependency?
18:11	raek	fmw: I think so. but ideally you should put swank-clojure in your user profile
18:11	raek	since it's not really specific the project, but to your setup
18:13	raek	so in lein2, you'd have {:user {:plugins [[lein-swank "1.4.4"]]}} in your ~/.lein/profiles.clj file
18:13	fmw	raek: yes, I'm trying that now. thanks!
18:13	raek	with lein1, you install the plugin using "lein plugin install ..." and it ends up in the ~/.lein/plugins/ directry
18:14	raek	which seems to be what you had
18:15	raek	I always forget whether the :plugins option was backported to lein 1.x
18:15	fmw	raek: ok, thats what I did now. still getting the error, so restarting emacs just to be sure
18:22	bderooms_	what does the io! macro do exactly? I expected (io! (dosync (println 4) (+ 4 5))) to return an error
18:23	metellus	I think the goal is to keep things with side effects from happening inside a dosync
18:24	amalloy	&(dosync (io!))
18:24	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.core
18:24	amalloy	damn it, lazybot
18:24	amalloy	,(dosync (io!))
18:24	clojurebot	#<IllegalStateException java.lang.IllegalStateException: I/O in transaction>
18:24	bderooms_	ah so you wrap all io in 'io!'
18:24	bderooms_	to make sure it doesn't accidentally happen in a transaction?
18:24	amalloy	,(doc io!)
18:24	clojurebot	"([& body]); If an io! block occurs in a transaction, throws an IllegalStateException, else runs body in an implicit do. If the first expression in body is a literal string, will use that as the exception message."
18:24	metellus	exactly
18:25	bderooms_	k, I interpreted it as 'evaluate a transaction to check each operation and error if its IO'
18:32	fmw	raek: now swank won't start at all, I'm just going to start with a clean leiningen install
18:33	raek	fmw: just wipe the ~/.lein/plugins/ and the project lib/ directories
18:33	raek	and do a "lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.4.2" if you are on lein 1.x
18:33	raek	and then a lein deps
18:33	fmw	raek: yes, I saw that on the lein-swank github page
18:34	fmw	so I'm going to try and upgrade to lein2
18:34	raek	you need to update your project.clj file too
18:34	raek	fmw: anyway, when debugging these kind of things it's very usefule to inspect the output of "lein classpath"
18:35	raek	if you see swank-clojure (or lein-swank) there twice, you also see the full path
18:36	raek	(at least in lein 1.x. in lein 2 you can do "lein deps :tree" instead)
18:52	fmw	raek: I'm on lein2 now, there is no mention of lein-swank in my classpath or lein deps :tree. swank jack-in works again now, but I still get the error
18:54	fmw	I'm pretty confident I'm on lein-swank 1.4.4 now, since sudo find / -name lein-swank only return /home/fmw/.m2/repository/lein-swank/lein-swank/ which just contains 1.4.4
18:57	raek	fmw: the same error?
18:57	raek	(getRoot something)
18:58	fmw	raek: yes, No matching field found: getRoot for class clojure.lang.Var
18:58	raek	oh, wait. could this be a clojure-mode issue?
18:59	raek	fmw: what does M-: (clojure-mode-version) print?
18:59	fmw	raek: 1.10.0
19:00	raek	fmw: that could be it. try upgrading
19:01	raek	1.11.5 is the latest
19:05	fmw	raek: on clojure-mode 1.11.5 now, but still the same error
19:09	raek	fmw: is the only one swank on `lein classpath`?
19:10	nmishra	hi
19:10	fmw	raek: oddly enough, there is no mention of swank at all on lein classpath
19:10	nmishra	installed lein2.0.0-preview4
19:10	raek	fmw: what libraries are you using, and with which clojure version?
19:11	nmishra	and my clojure version in project.clj is 1.4
19:11	nmishra	but lein2 repl gives the version as 1.3.0
19:11	nmishra	what am I doing wrong ?
19:12	fmw	raek: see https://github.com/fmw/alida/blob/master/project.clj
19:12	raek	nmishra: I have heard that bad-behaving dependencies can pull in an older version
19:13	raek	fmw: also, :dev-dependencies does not exist in lein2
19:13	fmw	raek: yes, just figured out that it wasn't including those packages when I ran lein test
19:13	raek	fmw: and you should put lein-swank in your ~/.lein/profiles.clj
19:13	nmishra	I have a brand new project
19:13	nmishra	(defproject svm4HN/svm4HN "1.0.0-SNAPSHOT"
19:13	nmishra	:min-lein-version "2.0.0"
19:13	nmishra	:dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.4.0"]]
19:13	nmishra	:description "FIXME: write description")
19:13	nmishra	thats what it looks like..
19:13	fmw	raek: was just to mention this is an old version, without the :plugins
19:13	raek	fmw: there's a `lein precate` command
19:14	fmw	didn't push the current version yet
19:15	raek	nmishra: when do you get 1.3.0? with lein repl inside the project?
19:15	nmishra	yes
19:15	nmishra	lein2 repl
19:15	raek	not outside the project?
19:15	nmishra	nope
19:15	nmishra	outside I get 1.4
19:16	raek	ok, that sounds weird
19:17	raek	fmw: I'm confused. are you using lein2 with profiles and plugins, or are you using lein1 with lein plugin install?
19:17	nmishra	I am using lein2 with profiles and plugins
19:17	raek	nmishra: that one was for fmw...
19:17	nmishra	I still have lein1 installed ..but I upgraded using https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Upgrading
19:18	nmishra	sorry
19:18	raek	nmishra: and you restarted clojure after you made any changes to the project.clj file?
19:18	raek	it is really weird that such a small project should behave this way
19:19	nmishra	going to try this..remove the project and generate it with lein2
19:19	nmishra	see if that makes any difference
19:20	raek	if your project.clj looks exactly like what you posted, I can't imagine what's wrong...
19:20	fmw	raek: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129552
19:20	raek	that project.clj should work in both lein1 and lein2 (if you remove the :min-lein-version, that is)
19:20	fmw	that is my new project.clj (shouldn't have linked to the old one, but I thought you just needed to know the packages)
19:21	raek	fmw: ah, a dependency pulled in an old version swank, right?
19:22	raek	you should add swank-clojure to :exclusions too
19:22	fmw	raek: I'm not sure what caused that, but I'll try that
19:22	raek	you said before that swank-clojure 1.4.0 appeared in lib/
19:22	raek	but that was your project?
19:22	fmw	yes
19:23	fmw	raek: its not there anymore, though
19:23	raek	a library of yours, or this project.clj file?
19:24	nmishra	I don't know..
19:24	nmishra	it's a brand new project
19:25	fmw	raek: it wasn't my project that pulled it in, my project said 1.4.4 and it was still running some old version I had installed manually because I was still on lein 1
19:25	fmw	raek: I assume 1.4.4 wouldn't have worked in the first place, with lein1, but not sure.
19:27	fmw	raek: its not there, anymore, though, so it doesn't matter.
19:29	raek	nmishra: doing "lein2 new foo", changing 1.3.0 to 1.4.0 in foo/project.clj and then "lein2 repl" in foo/ gives me a 1.4.0 repl...
19:29	raek	nmishra: are you using any plugins or anything?
19:29	nmishra	I am not..
19:29	nmishra	this is a brand new project
19:29	fmw	raek: I don't know where my current swank is coming from, though, I've only got it in a single place and with 1.4.4, but it isn't listed in my lein classpath output
19:30	nmishra	the only thing I haven't done yet..is completely wipe my git source folder and start fresh with lein2
19:30	nmishra	let me try that
19:30	raek	I wonder what lein command clojure-jack-in uses
19:30	raek	maybe it uses your 1.x lein
19:31	fmw	raek: I removed that
19:31	nmishra	That did it
19:31	nmishra	don't know why it happened though
19:31	nmishra	thanks
19:32	raek	and in what file does [lein-swank ...] exist now?
19:32	raek	have you removed the .lein/plugins dir
19:32	raek	?
19:32	nmishra	QUIT
19:33	raek	nmishra: also, you don't need to install via git. you can download the preview lein scripts
19:33	nmishra	thanks . I will do that
19:33	raek	nmishra: and I think you are looking for /quit :-)
19:33	fmw	raek: yes, I've removed the plugins directory
19:34	raek	fmw: and you upgraded clojure-mode?
19:34	lewang	hello
19:34	fmw	raek: yes
19:35	lewang	is this a good place to ask a newb question or should i go to stackoverflow?
19:35	raek	so M-: (clojure-mode-version) yields 1.11.5 now?
19:35	nmishra	fat fingered
19:35	raek	lewang: here is fine
19:35	nmishra	thanks
19:35	fmw	raek: hmm, there still is ~/.m2/repository/swank-clojure/swank-clojure/1.4.0/ somehow!
19:36	raek	yeah, that's just the maven cache. it shouldn't case any problems
19:36	lewang	cool. What's the idiomatic way to define true-times where "(true-times 4)" yields true 4 times and nil thereafter?
19:37	fmw	raek: ~/.m2/repository/lein-swank/lein-swank/1.4.4/ is the only version of lein swank it has
19:37	raek	lewang: a sequence like (true true true true) or (true true true true nil nil nil ...)?
19:37	fmw	I removed the maven cache earlier, so it shouldn't be tehre
19:37	raek	fmw: ah, so something is pulling it back?
19:37	raek	fmw: try running "lein deps :tree"
19:37	lewang	raek: sorry, no. "(true-times 4)" should return a function.
19:37	fmw	raek: possibly, but let me confirm
19:38	fmw	raek: its not in deps :tree, but I'll check it again
19:38	raek	lewang: so it should maintain state?
19:38	lewang	yes, i guess taht's my question. keep in mind i don't understand monads fully yet please. :)
19:39	raek	lewang: in this case it's very simple to write a non-pure (but fully thread-safe) function
19:40	raek	lewang: (defn true-times [n] (let [state (atom 0)] (> (swap! state inc) n)))
19:40	muhoo	i'm writing a macro which is doing a naughty thing: it needs to call functions which are defined in the calling namespace, not in the macro's namespace. how can i call a function in a macro without it being fully qualified?
19:41	raek	lewang: sorry, got the condition backwards... should be (<= (swap! state inc) n)
19:41	muhoo	in other words, (defmacro fubar [] (somefunc-in-calling-ns)) .
19:41	raek	it will return 'true' the first n times and 'false' from then on
19:42	muhoo	it macroexpands out to ns.of.macro/somefunc-in-calling-ns, which doesn't of course exist
19:42	raek	muhoo: yes that is naughty. you have to make sure the name of the function is outside any syntax-quote
19:42	raek	so instead of `(... (f ...) ...) you need to do `(... (~'f ...) ...)
19:43	raek	but there is probably a more elegant solution to your problem...
19:44	raek	fmw: I'm out of advice and I need to go, but try asking in #leiningen, the leiningen mailing list, and/or create an issue at swank-clojure on github
19:44	muhoo	raek: ah ~' that'll do. yes, it's ugly, but if it works, it works.
19:44	fmw	raek: thanks a lot for the effort, though. I really appreciate it and you helped me upgrade to lein2 too!
19:44	raek	np
19:45	lewang	raek: thanks.
19:45	muhoo	raek: fyi, https://www.refheap.com/paste/2812 , so far so #'good, for some value of #'good
19:45	raek	lewang: sorry, the previous code is all wrong. I'm, getting tired. (defn true-times [n] (let [state (atom 0)] (fn [] (> (swap! state inc) n))))
19:46	raek	(defn true-times [n] (let [state (atom 0)] (fn [] (<= (swap! state inc) n))))
19:46	timvisher	hey all
19:46	raek	last correction now?
19:46	lewang	raek: I was just rephrasing the q in case I asked it badly. ;)
19:47	timvisher	how would one go about printing all the docstrings for a namespace? Something like `(find-doc "<namespace-prefix>/.*")` that worked
19:47	gfredericks	timvisher: just the publics okay?
19:48	lewang	raek: thanks. that worked. Would a monad also solve this?
19:48	raek	muhoo: note that eval'ed code cannot use local variables
19:48	gfredericks	,(->> clojure.walk quote ns-publics vals (map meta) (map doc) (map count))
19:48	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.repl/doc, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
19:49	raek	...from the context where the eval call is at
19:49	gfredericks	,(->> clojure.walk quote ns-publics vals (map meta) (map :doc) (map count))
19:49	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: No namespace: clojure.walk found>
19:49	gfredericks	,(->> clojure.string quote ns-publics vals (map meta) (map :doc) (map count))
19:49	clojurebot	(44 34 138 107 34 ...)
19:49	gfredericks	timvisher: there we go ^
19:50	timvisher	gfredericks: ah-hah
19:50	timvisher	nice. :)
19:51	raek	muhoo: you should probably eval the url in the macro like this: `(do (defpage [:post ~(str (:view-url fsettings) "add")] ...) ...)
19:51	raek	eval in a macro sounds very suspicious
19:51	muhoo	raek: i tried that, and i'd prefer it. it didn't work, for some reason
19:52	raek	ah, fsettings is not evaluated...
19:52	muhoo	this whole thing is a huge experiment anyway
19:53	raek	(def fsettings { ... }) (defmacro def-form-pages [] `(... ~(str (:view-url fsettings) "add") ... )) on the other hand...
19:54	raek	lewang: monads are not very common in clojure
19:54	raek	they are not included in the core language
19:55	raek	since clojure does not enforce function purity, you can always resort to side-effects when you need to
19:56	raek	my experience with the combination of clojure and monads is basically non-existing, so I can't really answer the question
19:56	timvisher	what does the `#'` reader macro do?
19:56	gfredericks	,(read-string "#'foo")
19:56	clojurebot	(var foo)
19:57	raek	timvisher: it expands to (var foo), where var is a special form. (var foo) evaluates to the var object itself instead of its value
19:57	raek	this can be done since global variables are reified as objects in clojure
19:58	timvisher	hmm... so if i were trying to turn an instance of that (as in (->> ns-publics vals)) into the symbol itself, how might I do that?
19:58	timvisher	read?
19:59	raek	it's often used to embed a callback function in a data structure when you want to be able to redefine the var and make sure all callbacks are updated too
20:00	raek	timvisher: use the name in (keys ...ns-publics...)
20:01	gfredericks	timvisher: yeah if you want the symbol get it from the ns-publics map; that'll mean you can't use ->> so slickly anymore :)
20:01	raek	I think there is an undocumented java method too
20:02	gfredericks	something more like (for [[sym var] (ns-publics 'clojure.string)] [sym (-> var meta :doc)])
20:03	raek	timvisher: ah, the name is also in the metadata of the var
20:03	muhoo	raek: ah, that worked, thanks
20:04	McMartin	Is there a way to set up leiningen to build multiple applications out of the same source tree?
20:05	emezeske	McMartin: There's a plugin that might help: https://github.com/kumarshantanu/lein-sub
20:06	McMartin	emezeske: This looks like just what I was looking for, thanks
20:14	muhoo	McMartin: you could always write an 8088 emulator in clojure to run the gw-basic program directly :-)
20:17	McMartin	This way it's easier to write psychopathic AIs and plug them into the world model.
20:18	muhoo	heh, or clojurescript http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/js8080/
20:18	McMartin	Heh
20:18	McMartin	Actually, turning this particular little game into a webapp via ClojureScript was my main goal
20:18	McMartin	Then I got distracted by the opportunity for rampant AIs.
20:18	McMartin	It's a city-sim sort of game, but it turns out that until you hit various instant-lose conditions, it's actually more economical to let your population starve and use some of the savings to entice new immigration
20:19	McMartin	COME TO WESTERN ELBONIA, WHERE YOU TOO CAN DIE OF STARVATIO
20:19	McMartin	N
20:19	muhoo	i think the donner party used that strategy
20:20	McMartin	They just took the population hit
20:20	McMartin	I haven't worked out whether it's actually a good idea to deliberately crash your population to the edge of losing the game early on or not.
20:23	muhoo	just put in a feedback loop where the news of starving population causes immigrants to avoid the place like the plague? anyway, sounds like a fun project.
20:24	muhoo	my god, this macro is not only turning into a disaster, it must turn into a disaster in order to work. time to start over with a different approach.
20:24	McMartin	Heh
20:25	McMartin	Well, there's also the minor issue that citizens are actually a drain on the economy and if it weren't for tourism money the place wouldn't be colonizable at all - the sustainable population is about a quarter of what the instant-loss condition population is.
20:25	McMartin	So it's a game about delaying the inevitable
20:26	muhoo	life is a game of delaying the invevitable.
20:26	McMartin	This also had that 20-odd element let clause where it static-single-assignments up three pages of BASIC
20:26	McMartin	https://gist.github.com/2760021
20:26	muhoo	the job of humans is to fight entropy
20:26	McMartin	Yeah, but these particular humans are really bad at it
20:28	timvisher	raek, gfredericks: boo, i was trying to use `(map doc...` over them but map doesn't work with macros. any way to apply doc to each of the symbols in turn?
20:29	gfredericks	(->> clojure.string quote ns-publics vals (map meta) (map (juxt :name :doc)))
20:29	gfredericks	timvisher: ^ that not do it for you?
20:30	timvisher	well, it gets the docstrings but really what I want is the exact behavior of doc
20:30	timvisher	i should've been more specific in my first specification
20:30	timvisher	;)
20:30	timvisher	like i said, find-doc does what i want except that i can't filter for everything in a namespace
20:31	timvisher	one of the main reasons i jump out to the source code site or to clojuredocs or something is just to browse the api
20:31	timvisher	this sort of behavior would keep me at the repl more often, which would be nice
20:31	gfredericks	well doc is side-effects
20:31	gfredericks	so what you want is doseq I think
20:31	gfredericks	which will work fine with the macroness of doc
20:35	timvisher	gfredericks: `(doseq [x (->> clj-time.core quote ns-publics keys (map (partial str "time/")) (map symbol))] (prn x))` works fine but when I s/prn/doc it says it can't find the var, i'm guessing because the macro prevents expansion?
20:39	gfredericks	oh poop right
20:39	gfredericks	sorry I was wrong because I'm stupid
20:40	gfredericks	yeah probably writing a macro is the easiest way to do that
20:41	timvisher	gfredericks: `(doseq [x (->> clj-time.core quote ns-publics vals)] (print-doc x))`
20:41	timvisher	good 'ol `macroexpand-1` to the rescue! ;)
20:42	timvisher	i do find the docs utilities to be lacking a bit in ease of use, although i suppose they are fairly simple ;)
21:02	timvisher	would someone mind mentioning me real quick? i'm trying to test out an erc feature
21:02	wkmanire	timvisher: Mention you?
21:02	wkmanire	timvisher: What do you mean by that timvisher?
21:02	timvisher	lol
21:02	timvisher	exactly what you did
21:02	timvisher	and it works!
21:02	timvisher	:)
21:02	wkmanire	timvisher: Is this what you meant timvisher? timvisher?
21:02	wkmanire	timvisher: What feature are you testing?
21:02	timvisher	now emacs beeps! i can't believe i never noticed the erc match customizations
21:03	wkmanire	timvisher: How do I does that too?
21:03	wkmanire	I want beeps
21:03	wkmanire	found it
21:04	timvisher	`M-x customize-group RET erc match RET` enable erc-beep-on-match in the erc text matched hook
21:04	timvisher	wkmanire: whew, you're fast ;)
21:05	wkmanire	timvisher: What sound file formats are supported?
21:05	wkmanire	wav?
21:05	timvisher	oh i have no idea, i'm assuming when it says beep it means to run the emacs beep function
21:05	timvisher	which you can customize elsewhere
21:05	dnolen	non-higher order keyword invoke got >10X faster in CLJS master
21:05	wkmanire	I'm looking here, you can choose all kinds of sound optons.
21:05	wkmanire	Erc Sound
21:06	timvisher	can't remember how
21:06	timvisher	dnolen: good work
21:07	timvisher	wkmanire: that looks fancy
21:08	wkmanire	timvisher: The sound stuff?
21:09	timvisher	yep
21:09	timvisher	erc track looks interesting too
21:10	wkmanire	what's that do?
21:10	timvisher	looks like maybe a supercharged watch of sorts?
21:10	timvisher	not sure
21:11	timvisher	erc's functionality is mind-blowing
21:11	replsos	LLVM-clojure
21:11	emezeske	dnolen: Awesome! I just wrote some code that does a lot of that and wants to be faster
21:19	pandeiro	is there any cljs testing lib out there yet?
21:22	dnolen	emezeske: yeah common case should be a lot faster. still pondering higher order case.
21:29	wkmanire	Kick ass!
21:29	wkmanire	My son just put his shorts on!
21:29	emezeske	dnolen: I'm not sure what a higher-order keyword invocation looks like
21:29	hyPiRion	How is the new ns-bindings for require again?
21:29	emezeske	pandeiro: You can get pretty far with phantomjs and assert, in my experience
21:29	hyPiRion	The one which replaces use.
21:29	emezeske	pandeiro: Or just V8 if it's not a web app
21:30	dnolen	emezeske: (map :foo seq-of-maps)
21:31	emezeske	dnolen: Ahhh, I see, so only direct (:foo ...) invocations are optimized?
21:31	pandeiro	emezeske: i will look into phantom, i saw it mentioned in the cljsbuild repo examples... i would love to be able to write the tests in clojure though
21:31	emezeske	pandeiro: PhantomJS is just an environment in which to run the tests
21:32	emezeske	pandeiro: You still write them in clojurescript
21:32	pandeiro	ah i see, cool
21:32	dnolen	emezeske: yes
21:32	emezeske	dnolen: Does (:foo ...) get turned into a static-fn ?
21:32	dnolen	emezeske: higher-order case needs more thought
21:32	dnolen	emezeske: no, wrapped in a new Keyword type.
21:32	emezeske	dnolen: Ah, cool
21:33	emezeske	pandeiro: PhantomJS is just a headless browser, so you can do tests on clojurescript stuff that needs e.g. a DOM to work correctly
21:34	emezeske	pandeiro: The cljsbuild advanced example does have a few lines of JS to tell PhantomJS to load the clojurescript JS. I've pondered writing that glue code in cljs itself, but there's not much to gain by doing that
21:34	emezeske	pandeiro: So I guess you could say the hand-written JS just bootstraps the cljs test code
21:36	pandeiro	emezeske: i guess i'm actually more perplexed by how to test a bunch of async functions, regardless of language
21:37	emezeske	pandeiro: Yeah, that can get really tricky
21:38	emezeske	pandeiro: I've found mocking useful when things get super async. I don't know if there's a good solution for mocking cljs calls, though (midje is clj only)
21:39	replsos	It's more on the "secret weapon" side of Paul Graham's programming language taxonomy
21:56	gfredericks	emezeske: it took me several seconds not to read the end of your last msg as a sexp
21:57	gfredericks	&'(midge is clj only)
21:57	lazybot	⇒ (midge is clj only)
21:57	McMartin	Hrm. I'm poking around at ClojureScript, but I'm not really seeing any tutorials for interacting with DOMs, JS generally, etc.
21:58	McMartin	Is that out there or is one expected to more or less go off and learn by example?
22:00	gfredericks	tutorials might be rather light yet; I've used domina and liked it
22:12	ambrosebs	is it a good idea to assume that (= (class (conj anything a)) (class (conj anything a b c d e f g h)))
22:13	yoklov	McMartin: its basically the same as in javascript
22:13	scottj	,(= (class (conj [] 1)) (class (conj #{} 1)))
22:13	clojurebot	false
22:13	yoklov	scottj: different as
22:13	yoklov	err
22:13	yoklov	anythings
22:13	ambrosebs	:) Actually, don't ArrayMaps convert to hashmaps?
22:13	scottj	yoklov: ahh, misunderstood question
22:14	ambrosebs	So it doesn't look like a good assumption
22:14	gfredericks	,(class {})
22:14	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
22:15	gfredericks	,(class (apply conj {} (map vector (range 200) (range 200))))
22:15	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap
22:15	ambrosebs	That's fine. I'm finding a type signature for conj
22:15	ambrosebs	I just need to note an ArrayMap can conj to either ArrayMap or HashMap
22:17	ambrosebs	for those interested, I'm parameterising IPersistentCollection to hold info about cons, first, rest and empty
22:18	ambrosebs	(IPersistentCollection obj-to-cons cons-result empty first rest)
22:18	emezeske	gfredericks: heh ^_^
22:19	ambrosebs	so IPersistentCollection$EmptyList is (All [a] (IPersistentCollection a (Cons a IPersistentCollection$EmptyList) Nothing IPersistentCollection$EmptyList))
22:19	ambrosebs	:)
22:19	ambrosebs	so I'm going thru each class and typing them as so
22:21	emezeske	McMartin: If you've used js before, you might like jayq
22:35	alex_baranosky	does anyone know what is the preferred way to shell out in Clojure these days?
22:36	TimMc	alex_baranosky: The question is, do you need access to the in/out streams?
22:37	alex_baranosky	I think no for this case… but I'm interested to know the differences
22:38	alex_baranosky	aha, clojure.java.shell - http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.java.shell-api.html
22:38	lazybot	Nooooo, that's so out of date! Please see instead http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.java.shell-api.html and try to stop linking to rich's repo.
22:38	alex_baranosky	thanks lazy bot :)
22:39	xeqi	alex_baranosky: https://github.com/Raynes/conch ?
22:52	amalloy	someday i'll add a feature to lazybot that can cause rich's github page to issue an http 301
23:04	muhoo	hmm, nested defns are allowed, it seems. are they considered.... evil?
23:04	muhoo	i.e. (defn fubart [y] (defn baz [x] (str y " baz " x)))
23:06	gfredericks	in clojure there's not much of a distinction between top level and inside-of-something
23:06	gfredericks	if it's not evil it's at least awful
23:06	gfredericks	ooh try putting a (ns) inside a (defn)
23:07	emezeske	muhoo: I don't know if that's considered "evil", but it is almost certainly never what someone wants to do
23:07	emezeske	muhoo: E.g. newcomers expect that to create a nested-in-scope function
23:07	emezeske	muhoo: When in reality fubart is going to redefine baz at the top level every time it's called
23:08	muhoo	it looks like that's the case. damn
23:09	muhoo	i've exhausted most of the options here, not sure what to do next
23:09	emezeske	muhoo: What's your goal?
23:09	jasonjckn	muhoo: letfn for nested-scope function
23:09	jasonjckn	or let with lambdas
23:09	muhoo	i'm trying to write something that will create a bunch of boilerplate pages for CRUD in noir
23:09	muhoo	defpage is a macro
23:10	muhoo	it generates a function, then adds that function to the noir state atoms
23:11	emezeske	muhoo: My experience has been that once I go beyond the basic "define a single page" step, that I find it easier to use compojure directly than to use Noir
23:11	muhoo	i thought about that.
23:12	emezeske	I actually wrote a macro I called defcrud that builds a full RESTful API for me using compojure
23:12	muhoo	there's a noir.core/custom-handler* function, but it uses this same defpage parse-args business
23:12	muhoo	emezeske: really? is it somewhere i could look at it?
23:12	emezeske	I wish... I keep wanting to open source it, but haven't had time
23:12	muhoo	that's very much along the lines of what i'm trying to do, except i need to do it with forms
23:12	muhoo	emezeske: are you using noir?
23:13	emezeske	muhoo: I used to, but eventually I just dropped it because I was building my own abstractions
23:13	emezeske	muhoo: Which it kind of sounds like you are doing as well
23:14	muhoo	i might do some hack like writing the whole business as a compojure app, then just wrapping the noir app in it
23:14	muhoo	the whole thing has turned out to be a harder problem than i thought it'd be.
23:15	emezeske	The nice thing about compojure is that routes are just functions, so your defcrud thing could just return a compojure handler
23:15	emezeske	No macros necessary
23:15	emezeske	I dunno, there might be some sweet way to do it with Noir as well
23:15	muhoo	right, then i could add only one handler instead of 5
23:15	muhoo	i think there is, thanks, that gives me some hope
23:17	muhoo	ah, noir.core/compojure-route !
23:17	emezeske	That's a promising name!
23:17	muhoo	it's 3 lines, and seems to do exactly what i want.
23:18	muhoo	will try. that would be sweet.
23:18	emezeske	Good luck sir
23:20	Raynes	muhoo: What is this defpage hack crap?
23:20	ambrosebs	Another question on collection invariants: does (= (-> any-coll empty class) (-> any-coll empty rest class))
23:20	ambrosebs	I think this probably holds
23:21	gfredericks	,(-> [3] empty class)
23:21	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
23:21	gfredericks	,(-> [3] empty rest class)
23:21	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList
23:21	ambrosebs	:)
23:22	ambrosebs	ok, maybe not, cheers
23:22	gfredericks	maps will do something similar I think
23:23	gfredericks	,(for [x [3] {3 3} #{3} '(3)] (= (-> x empty class) (-> x empty rest class)))
23:23	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: for requires an even number of forms in binding vector in sandbox:>
23:23	gfredericks	,(for [x [[3] {3 3} #{3} '(3)]] (= (-> x empty class) (-> x empty rest class)))
23:23	clojurebot	(false false false true)
23:24	ambrosebs	So I need to be more specific with my types. I assumed I could infer the "empty rest case" from the type of "empty" for that type
23:24	ambrosebs	but it's not consistent
23:25	gfredericks	rest mucks with things
23:26	gfredericks	,(rest "foo")
23:26	clojurebot	(\o \o)
23:26	gfredericks	,(empty "foo")
23:26	clojurebot	nil
23:27	gfredericks	,(empty 12)
23:27	clojurebot	nil
23:27	banseljaj	Hmm. Guys, do clojurians need DB servers?
23:29	gfredericks	It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man in possession of a good clojure must be in want of a DB server.
23:29	ambrosebs	gfredericks: wat ... (empty 12)
23:30	ambrosebs	sometimes nil punning goes too far :P
23:30	gfredericks	nil punning?
23:31	ambrosebs	slightly wrong context, but http://clojure.org/lazy#Making%20Clojure%20Lazier--The%20victim%20-%20nil%20punning
23:33	banseljaj	And which is the preferred DB server for Clojurians/
23:33	xeqi	banseljaj: like using clojure.java.jdbc, korma, clutch, or something similar?
23:33	banseljaj	xeqi: Ahh. Okay. :)
23:34	banseljaj	I am asking in context of the discussion here a few hours ago about a Linux for Clojure dev. A Plug-in replacement clojure development environment
23:34	banseljaj	One that can be fired from a VM, for instance.
23:35	technomancy	what does replacement mean in this context?
23:35	banseljaj	technomancy: I recognize you. :D
23:35	technomancy	hello
23:35	banseljaj	Hi.
23:35	banseljaj	And sorry, Replacement was the wrong word.
23:37	banseljaj	In its bare default, my distro has leiningen, a JDK and aall the editors configured for lisp/clojure. (emacs, eclipse, vim etc)
23:38	banseljaj	And the associated paraphernalia. an offline browsable doc, some simple text editors, a gui, an IRC client.
23:38	banseljaj	people here were interested in it. in fact, they told me to make it. :)
23:39	technomancy	you could spend all day adding databases and someone would still feel left out
23:39	amalloy	i don't think (empty 12) returning nil has anything to do with nil punning. if (rest 12) returned nil, then maybe, but...
23:40	technomancy	that said, postgres is probably the place to start
23:40	Raynes	And if you add mongodb, everyone will be afraid to touch it.
23:41	ambrosebs	amalloy: true, just the first phrase that came to mind
23:41	Raynes	amalloy is a walking correction service.
23:41	gfredericks	so the word "pun" here refers to the double meaning of nil as empty and falsy?
23:41	amalloy	Raynes: i'm sitting down. duh
23:42	Raynes	You could be standing outside and still see that damned tv of yours.
23:42	amalloy	but i agree, there are a few cases where it seems clojure goes too far in silently accepting "crazy" argument types
23:43	banseljaj	technomancy: The most used and the second most use should suffie on the basic instal
23:43	ambrosebs	gfredericks: that's my interpretation. Nil punning is usually about return values, not argument values tho
23:43	banseljaj	s/instal/install
23:43	amalloy	,((juxt keyword :foo empty) 10)
23:43	clojurebot	[nil nil nil]
23:43	ambrosebs	gfredericks: I was a bit lazy, but hey, you learnt something ;)
23:44	gfredericks	heck yes I did. It's really weird to read stuff from old-clojure days
23:44	amalloy	gfredericks: like halloway being astonished that sets are functions
23:45	technomancy	banseljaj: for people getting started with Clojure, Couch or Redis would be my second pick.
23:45	ambrosebs	amalloy: and not just boolean ones in Clojure yay!
23:45	Raynes	I was pretty astonished myself.
23:45	technomancy	since they'll be unlikely to be working with huge datasets
23:45	banseljaj	technomancy: thanks.
23:46	amalloy	ambrosebs: i'd rather they returned booleans
23:46	muhoo	Raynes: my CRUD-generating stuff
23:46	gfredericks	amalloy: ambrosebs I was about to say the same thing
23:46	technomancy	amalloy: but... c.c/some
23:46	muhoo	Raynes: i'm going to go with compojure-routes instead
23:46	Raynes	amalloy: Why?
23:46	amalloy	i don't really like some either :P. i'd like it to be more like find-first
23:46	muhoo	but i learned a lot about macros, what they are, and what the aren't, so no big loss
23:47	banseljaj	Hmm. I think gnome is too much for a window manager, lxde might be better
23:47	ambrosebs	amalloy: what's find-first?
23:47	amalloy	ambrosebs: (fn [pred coll] (first (filter pred coll)))
23:47	Raynes	&(first (filter true? [1 2 3 true 4]))
23:47	lazybot	⇒ true
23:47	technomancy	if it's meant to be used as a VM, just have people SSH in. you'll save tons of disk space =)
23:48	amalloy	Raynes: because you can't actually use sets as existence checkers, in case one of the elements is false or nil
23:48	amalloy	i never want to do something like: "oh, let's map this set over a collection" - just use it in filter or whatever, i only care about truthiness of the result, and so as things are now i have to use contains? instead to be correct
23:49	banseljaj	technomancy: :D Well, it is also meant to be used as a stand-alone distro. locally installed. :)
23:49	technomancy	banseljaj: too bad distros aren't composable
23:49	ambrosebs	amalloy: how can u distinguish between a found nil and a not-found in find-first?
23:49	banseljaj	technomancy: that's a clojure joke?
23:50	Raynes	Whoa. The 'u' bomb.
23:50	banseljaj	I'm still a noob in clojure. :)
23:50	amalloy	ambrosebs: the same issue exists for c.c/some
23:50	amalloy	just shaped slightly differently
23:50	ambrosebs	amalloy: exactly, what's the advantage?
23:50	amalloy	,(some even? (range))
23:50	clojurebot	true
23:50	amalloy	not very dang helpful. i wanted the first even number
23:51	ambrosebs	amalloy: ah
23:51	Raynes	amalloy: You should write your own language dude.
23:51	amalloy	what would i do with a "language dude"?
23:51	banseljaj	,(true)
23:51	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Boolean cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
23:51	banseljaj	,(true? true)
23:51	clojurebot	true
23:51	ambrosebs	I'm usually halfway to writing (some #(and (pred %) %) ...)
23:51	amalloy	exactly
23:51	Raynes	You could write a grammar checker.
23:52	banseljaj	amalloy: Ask him to do your work and chill. :D
23:52	technomancy	banseljaj: not specific to clojure, but commonly-used terminology around here
23:52	banseljaj	nod
23:52	amalloy	but, ambrosebs, that doesn't work if you want your predicate to return truthy for an input of nil/false
23:52	banseljaj	technomancy: I'm forking your code as soon as I am competent enough. :) I WILL REPLACE YOU! :D
23:53	ambrosebs	amalloy: :) and that's the point I stop using some
23:53	amalloy	right! if it were instead find-first, you could just use it :P
23:54	ambrosebs	find-first + not-found parameter would solve all worries, right?
23:54	amalloy	nod
23:54	banseljaj	technomancy: I'm prone to such jokes. Don't mind me. :)
23:55	amalloy	anyway, i have similar experiences with sets. i can almost use them the way i want
23:55	technomancy	emezeske: do you know how much of the browser-repl stuff is specific to the fact that browsers can't have server sockets?