#clojure – 2012-05-19

2012-05-19

02:42	tomoj	this benchmark is silly, right? https://gist.github.com/139af93a585057d4121a
02:43	Chousuke	I guess so
02:45	Chousuke	it's also completely expected, fwiw
02:46	Chousuke	the overhead from take looks large because realising the actual elements in the range seq takes next to no time
02:54	wkmanire	join #refheap
02:56	amalloy	tomoj: especially because range produces a chunked sequence and take doesn't do anything to preserve its chunkiness
02:58	amalloy	fwiw, with the new reducers from 1.5 the overhead from take is probably smaller than the cost to create a range
03:23	tomoj	amalloy: cool
03:23	tomoj	I am trying to think whether I should use reducers for this
03:38	y3di	why did clojure gain traction and not jfli, Foil, Lisplets, or DotLisp
03:40	Raynes	Because I'm here and not there.
03:41	rothbard	y3di: maybe because it came out at a time that jvm languages were becoming hot and industrially used (particularly jruby and scala)
03:41	rothbard	jvm languages other than java that is
03:42	Raynes	Well, some of it is simpler than that.
03:42	Raynes	DotLisp was a Rich Hickey project. It didn't gain traction because he moved on to Clojure.
03:42	Raynes	One is the result of the other.
03:42	fliebel	all of them seem to be form rich
03:43	Raynes	Right.
03:43	Raynes	It's kind of a matter of what he decided on.
03:43	y3di	fliebel: yep
03:43	y3di	ahh
03:43	rothbard	Raynes: well if DotLisp came out in 2003 that gave it several years chance to become popular before Clojure was released.
03:44	Raynes	But how long was he working on Clojure during that time?
03:44	Raynes	How much did he work on dotLisp during that time
03:44	fliebel	There where a lot of lisps on the JVM before Clojure too. Did Dotlisp offer any sgnificant advantage over a CL on the JVM?
03:44	rothbard	I don't see how that's relevant. first Clojure release probably in 2007 probably wasn't all that much more featureful than DotLisp release in 2003.
03:45	rothbard	(not sure on date of first clojure release)
03:45	Raynes	fliebel: dotLisp is .net
03:45	rothbard	fliebel: I think using .net types instead of some wrapper types and not botherin gwith backwards compatibility
03:45	Raynes	rothbard: It's relevant because if he wasn't as active in the community of dotlisp as he was in the early Clojure days, it would have made every bit of difference.
03:46	rognv	Is clojureCLR any good?
03:46	fliebel	rognv: No idea, it doesn't run on Mono.
03:46	rognv	that means no then :(
03:47	Raynes	I don't understand the correlation between goodness and mono.
03:47	Raynes	Why does it matter if it runs on Mono? Isn't the point of .NET Windows?
03:48	rognv	I guess the word "better" would be more appropriate.
03:48	fliebel	Did the early Rich lisps show any of the treats that make Clojure so nice to use, or where they just his toy languages and experiments?
03:49	fliebel	rognv: IIRC, it's just some dependency issue. It depends on some native lib that doesn;t run on Mono
03:50	rothbard	Raynes, well it matters if rognv runs Linux/Mac. many .net users want to deploy to Linux or iOS.
03:51	fliebel	Oh, yea... phonegap, or the other one, they use mono, right?
03:51	rothbard	monotouch
03:51	fliebel	yea, clojure-clj depends on vjslib
03:53	y3di	what are the arguments for clojure not being a real lisp? are there even any remotely valid ones?
03:53	rothbard	fliebel: I haven't looked closely but they didn't appear to have clojure's niceties other than basic java interop
03:54	Raynes	rothbard: Right, but I'm not sure why they would.
03:54	rothbard	y3di: for some arbitrary definitions of "real lisp" there are good arguments.
03:54	fliebel	y3di: That it doesn't use enough parens? I don't know.
03:54	rothbard	Raynes, clojure-clr specifically or .net in general?
03:54	Raynes	.net in general
03:55	rothbard	Raynes, why they would want to deploy to Linux/iOS?
03:55	fliebel	rothbard: Which defs?
03:55	Raynes	Yes.
03:55	rothbard	Raynes: 1) they already have linux servers 2) linux servers are cheaper 3) the devices run iOS
03:56	Raynes	But why would they write .NET with the intention of running it on Linux?
03:56	Borkdude	y3di: Rich wanted to use Lisp while clients decide they want Java/.NET. The solution is Clojure. (story short)
03:56	rothbard	Raynes, they like C#/F#/etc
03:56	Raynes	Meh, it doesn't matter. People do things. Life goes on.
03:57	Borkdude	Raynes: there are people who don't want to learn Objective-C to create apps for the iPad, but want to use C#
03:57	Borkdude	Raynes: just like some people want to use Clojure instead of Javascript
03:57	Borkdude	Raynes: or Java...
03:59	rothbard	Raynes: there's actually a lot of good linux software written in C#, e.g. Tomboy
04:01	Borkdude	I know a student who did an internship at Microsoft-stack based company, his assignment was to check out if MonoTouch would be suited for them to build iPad/iPhone apps (http://xamarin.com/monotouch)
04:03	fliebel	Hm, does anyone actually have mono installed?
04:05	tomoj	I do
04:05	tomoj	I don't remember why
04:06	daniel___	what would be the quickest way of finding the index of the least significant or most significant bit in a binary number?
04:08	Borkdude	fliebel: I have
04:08	tomoj	daniel___: look it up by type? guess I don't understand
04:08	fliebel	I was trying to see if clojure-clr works, but I don't seem to have it, neither does my package manager.
04:08	tomoj	the index of the least significant bit of any number on the jvm is 0, no?
04:09	amalloy	$javadoc Long
04:09	lazybot	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/Long.html
04:10	amalloy	has highestOneBit and lowestOneBit
04:11	daniel___	oh, thanks amalloy
04:11	daniel___	thats what i meant
04:13	daniel___	looks like that gets me a Long with that bit, but doesn't get me the index
04:13	Borkdude	fliebel: I installed it manually
04:13	daniel___	i think in combination with numberOfLeadingZeros i can work it out
04:14	Borkdude	"Why isn't Clojure a real Lisp?" - "Why isn't the Java Virtual Machine a real Machine?"
04:14	fliebel	Borkdude: to much work. and then I can't uninstall.
04:16	Borkdude	fliebel: what OS are you on?
04:19	Borkdude	btw, I installed mono to see if I could show .NET examples without a VM, but I mostly use the VM now anyway and don't really use mono(develop)
04:19	rothbard	fliebel: looks like dotlisp did have vector literal syntax and maybe multiarit functions but not hashmap syntax ({} was used for records)
04:20	Borkdude	although some students even got creating webservices with WCF working under OSX
04:26	Borkdude	something else, what is the current status of developing mobile apps with clojure?
04:27	Borkdude	is it possible?
04:27	rothbard	Borkdude: possible on android but startup time is slow. possible with clojurescript+phonegap, haven't seen any examples though
04:28	muhoo	4 hours in, and i almost understand how defpage works
04:45	Borkdude	has anyone tried the android emulator on osx lately? last time I checked it was unusably slow
04:52	alexyakushev	Borkdude: I'm working on simplifying the Clojure/Android development process right now. You can look at this group for some info: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/clojure-android
04:58	Borkdude	alexyakushev: tnx
05:04	muhoo	android simulators are in general quite slow. easier to test on an actual device.
05:50	mudphone	anyone have examples of good write-ups for use cases of Clojure vs. Haskell?
05:54	scottj	mudphone: pretty simple. if you want static typing, haskell. if you want jvm, clojure. otherwise pick preference.
05:54	mudphone	scottj: interesting, thanks
05:55	mudphone	I don't know much about the Haskell concurrency story
05:55	mudphone	i'm assuming people use monads for state (in Haskell)
05:57	fliebel	scottj: Clojure also does static typing, right?
05:57	scottj	fliebel: nope, there are people working on it though
05:57	fliebel	scottj: yea: http://cloud.github.com/downloads/frenchy64/papers/type-inference-review.pdf
05:58	scottj	mudphone: I don't know Haskell but I believe it has STM builtin, perhaps even partially the inspiration for Clojure's, though I suspect like clojure's stm it is rarely used
06:02	mudphone	with monads, i guess
06:49	daniel___	are there any problems using '-' or '+' in a function name?
06:49	daniel___	defn bitscan+ defn bitscan-
06:50	babilen	daniel___: No, why? Do you have a problem with that?
06:51	daniel___	babilen: i have a problem, just wanted to rule that out
06:51	daniel___	havent worked it out yet
06:51	Borkdude	if you want to call it from java it might be problematic ;)
06:52	daniel___	yeah, not planning on doing that
06:52	daniel___	somethings wrong with my logic atm, think that function is fine
06:52	daniel___	its how im using it
06:52	y3di	commonlisp has static typing right?
06:52	Borkdude	y3di: no
06:52	raek	calling such functions from java is not a problem
06:53	babilen	daniel___: Would it make sense to paste the code to, say, http://refheap.com so we can take a look?
06:53	daniel___	yeah, maybe
06:54	raek	RT.var("some.ns", "bitscan+").invoke(...);
06:57	daniel___	might be hard to work out whats going on: https://gist.github.com/2730452
06:57	daniel___	works for positive (bitscan+) attacks but not negative (bitscan-) attacks
06:58	y3di	is the clojure compiler progressively being rewritten in clojure
06:59	Borkdude	,(-> (clojure.lang.RT/var "clojure.core" "+") (.invoke 1 2 3))
06:59	clojurebot	6
07:00	scottj	y3di: no, but some steps have been taken to make that easier when it eventually happens (clojurescript and protocols)
07:00	daniel___	it's not a real situation at the moment, i have all 32 pieces plus an extra bishop
07:00	daniel___	still should work though
07:17	ro_st	anyone using monger?
07:17	ro_st	got your book yet, matessim?
07:18	Borkdude	hmm, ##(-> (clojure.lang.RT/var "clojure.core" "defn") (.invoke nil nil 'foo '[a b] '(+ a b)))
07:18	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! class clojure.lang.Var is bad!
07:18	Borkdude	,(-> (clojure.lang.RT/var "clojure.core" "defn") (.invoke nil nil 'foo '[a b] '(+ a b)))
07:18	clojurebot	(def foo (clojure.core/fn ([a b] (+ a b))))
07:21	Borkdude	so when you invoke defn this way, you get the macroexpansion back?
07:21	Borkdude	or how does this work, defn isn't even a macro
07:22	Borkdude	it is a function which returns a clojure expression…
07:25	mfex	Borkdude, defn is a macro
07:26	gfredericks	and macros can be seen as functions which return clojure expressions :D
07:26	gfredericks	I think maybe in the source it looks like a function because defmacro doesn't exist yet
07:26	ForNeVeR	Macros are such functions.
07:26	Borkdude	mfex: gfredericks ah that's it: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L263
07:27	Borkdude	(. (var defn) (setMacro)) …
07:27	matessim	ro_st, its in the mailbox office
07:28	matessim	it didn't fit my mail box, so i need to pick it up, its open tomorrow only :)
07:28	matessim	closed on weekends :/, but can't wait to start reading it.
07:28	ro_st	it's a great book. i finished it recently, although there are plenty of places i need to revis
07:28	ro_st	it
07:30	gfredericks	ForNeVeR: not quite just that, but mostly just that
07:30	gfredericks	I could write a function that returns code and it would not be a macro
07:31	raek	"macro functions" also take two extra arguments
07:32	raek	so when you write (defmacro foo [a b] ...) a function like (fn [a b &env &form] ...) will be created
07:32	raek	(not sure about the ordering of the extra args, though)
07:34	Borkdude	hmm, so the metadata (:macro true) decides wether the expansion will be evaluated: https://www.refheap.com/paste/2795
07:35	Borkdude	raek: the extra args are the first two
07:36	raek	Borkdude: it decides whether the compiler should call the macro at all
07:36	raek	macro functions are never applied at runtime
07:36	Borkdude	raek: right
07:37	raek	so when the compiler sees (foo a b c) it will check the macro flag. if it set the form will be replaced by the macro expansion. if it's not, then code for an ordinary function application is generated
07:37	Borkdude	raek: yeah, cool.
08:16	Vinzent	Hi. Any idea why this function https://www.refheap.com/paste/2796 throws StackOverflowError when called?
09:50	glitch99	Quick question: in lisp afaik, data and code are the same thing. so if I were to (def foo '(println "hello")) then I can funcall that foo - (funcall foo) but clojure doesn't have this ability?
09:52	glitch99	nevermind - (eval foo)
10:29	jweiss	is there a way to package an uberjar with lein, so that when it's run, it runs a swank server instead of the "main" class?
10:30	jweiss	i'm guessing i just make swank the main class, and a real dep instead of a dev dep?
10:52	jweiss	hm.. trying to make swank.swank the main class of an uberjar doesn't seem to work. even if i precompile swank.swank, when i run lein uberjar, it seems to remove the "classes" dir.
10:58	fliebel	What would it take to automatically answer emails? You know, NLP and all that...
11:20	ifesdjeen	hi guys!
11:21	ifesdjeen	does anyone know why (contains? [ :id :another-field ] :id) evaluates to false?
11:21	ifesdjeen	whereas (contains? [1 2] 1) evaluates to true
11:22	ifesdjeen	and (= :id (first [:id :another_field])) evaluates to true, too...
11:22	metellus	it's based on the index, not the contents
11:22	ifesdjeen	not sure why contains on a vector of keywords returns false
11:22	ifesdjeen	ah
11:22	metellus	,(contains? [:a :b] 1)
11:22	clojurebot	true
11:23	ifesdjeen	i see now
11:23	ifesdjeen	(contains? [1 3] 3) is false
11:23	ifesdjeen	makes sense, actually
11:24	ifesdjeen	i guess i'll use some
11:24	ifesdjeen	thank you metellus
11:35	lemoq	hi folks!
11:38	lemoq	Got some trouble with declare... my code keeps throwing an exception that i am trying to call an unbound function. Did I get that right that I can use declare to make some like "early" declarations, i.e. before actually implementing the code?!
11:42	lemoq	here's the code that's causing trouble http://pastebin.com/hPd6846r
11:44	tmciver	lemoq: I don't see a definition for blank . . .
11:46	tmciver	lemoq: also, it looks like you could just put the defn for col-parser after the defs for blank and expr?
11:46	tmciver	lemoq: in which case you don't need declare. I don't think I've ever had the need for declare myself.
11:48	lemoq	tmciver: I omitted the def of blank, because I could narrow down the problems to expr. If I put the definition of col-parser to the bottom I will have to make other declares beforehand.
11:48	lemoq	But I'm trying that now
11:52	daniel___	i want to restrict a functions argument to within a certain range and if it isn't in the range, return 0
11:52	daniel___	i remember reading about ways to restrict the arguments but i suppose this will return an error
11:53	tmciver	daniel___: you can use pre (and post) condition but these throw Assertion errors if their tests don't pass.
11:53	daniel___	i guess i need an if statement
11:54	tmciver	daniel___: yes, otherwise I think you need to manual check for that in your function to return 0.
11:54	daniel___	yeah, i think i need to wrap the whole function in an if else
11:54	daniel___	how can i check if a number is within a range
11:55	tmciver	daniel___: (if (not (< a arg b)) 0 ...)
11:55	tmciver	,(< 1 2 3)
11:55	daniel___	yep, that'd do nicely
11:55	clojurebot	true
11:55	tmciver	,(< 1 3 2)
11:55	clojurebot	false
11:55	daniel___	i thought there might be a function like (if (within [1 2 3] 1) ..
11:56	tmciver	daniel___: well, you can check if a number is a part of a collection with 'some'
11:57	hyPiRion	Either (some = [1 2 3] 1) or (contains? #{1 2 3} 1)
11:58	tmciver	or (some #{1} [1 2 3])
12:01	daniel___	don't worry, i used an if and it's working perfectly
12:01	daniel___	using some wouldnt be any more concise
12:02	adeelkh	tmciver: clever
12:03	tmciver	adeelkh: nah, it's right out of the doc: ##(doc some)
12:03	lazybot	⇒ "([pred coll]); Returns the first logical true value of (pred x) for any x in coll, else nil. One common idiom is to use a set as pred, for example this will return :fred if :fred is in the sequence, otherwise nil: (some #{:fred} coll)"
12:05	adeelkh	tmciver: yeah but that only works because a set can actually be treated as a function that tells you whether something is in it
12:05	adeelkh	,[(#{1} 1) (#{1} 2)]
12:05	clojurebot	[1 nil]
12:21	gfredericks	well it doesn't quite
12:21	gfredericks	'(#{false} false)
12:21	gfredericks	,(#{false} false)
12:21	clojurebot	false
12:26	adeelkh	gfredericks: well, to be exact, it (s x) for some set s returns x if x is in s or nil otherwise
12:26	adeelkh	-"it"
12:46	lemoq	I am still having problems with declare, and I think I can narrow it down to some weird behavior: I declare a symbol which I bind to a function, and this function is called several times with a pretty deep nesting... it seems that the more times I evaluate all my code the deeper the nestings can be done without getting an error?!
12:48	lemoq	here's some code... http://pastebin.com/cpGMWp0u
12:49	adeelkh	i'm trying to set up a clojurescript repl. where exactly do i put (repl/connect "http://localhost:9000/repl")?
12:49	lemoq	happens in the REPL as well as in clooj, the editor i am using... you can safely ignore everything until the symbol other is defined
12:50	xeqi	ohh, a parser combinator
12:51	gfredericks	this is-valid function is strange
12:51	lemoq	gfredericks: y?
12:52	lemoq	xeqi: yes, it's a parser combinator... fun fun fun :)
12:52	gfredericks	lemoq: because I forgot you had your own and/or :)
12:52	gfredericks	(def expr (or llist other)) was pretty weird otherwise
12:53	lemoq	gfredericks: yeah :)
12:53	gfredericks	lemoq: what's the error?
12:54	lemoq	copy the code into your REPL, and you will see that the tests fail with an "attempting to call unbound function: expr" error... do that 4 times, and everything works fine
12:54	lemoq	which seems pretty odd to me
12:55	lemoq	it seems like the stuff declared in the (declare ...) part is not redefined later on, as I would expect
12:56	tmciver	lemoq: hmm, I don't seem to be getting any error, though the calls at the end all return nil.
12:57	xeqi	I get the nil returns too in swank
12:57	tmciver	lemoq: wait, (is-valid "(a)") gives that error
12:57	xeqi	but if I call (expr "(a)") I get the unbound error
12:59	lemoq	errors will vanish if you copy the stuff 4 times into the REPL... you can then reproduce it by adding parenthesis to the calls, which gives an error, and then copying again, and the error is gone
13:01	hiredman	lemoq: do you understand what def and declare do?
13:01	hiredman	lemoq: they create vars, which are implicitly deref'ed when you name them
13:02	hiredman	def gives the var a value, declare doesn't
13:02	lemoq	yeah, that's my understanding: declare kind of "reserves" a name, and def binds it
13:02	gfredericks	do they create new vars each time?
13:02	mfex	adeelkh, put it in your .cljs file?
13:03	adeelkh	mfex: i'm using node.js, so then i would just compile and run it with node?
13:03	hiredman	gfredericks: no
13:03	lemoq	so my understanding is that I can resever a name via declare and use it when passing functions around, but the functiona that is finally called has to be def'ed to the symbol
13:04	hiredman	but you refer to the var expr before the def that gives it a value is reached
13:04	hiredman	so the var expr is deref'ed, but it has no value
13:04	hiredman	line 39
13:04	mfex	adeelkh, repl/connect is for the browserrepl
13:05	adeelkh	mfex: i thought so. so how would i get it working with node?
13:05	lemoq	hiredman: yes, because that what i understood - i can use the name and making the binding later
13:05	lemoq	expr is bound in any way before the first real call
13:06	mfex	adeelkh, node.js is the server side right? repl/connect is for the browser on the client side
13:06	gfredericks	lemoq: you could use the name inside a function if you didn't call that function till later
13:06	adeelkh	mfex: that's right. i'm trying to make a command line script you can run with node.
13:07	gfredericks	but if you use the name at the top-level and it hasn't been bound to anything yet then it'll just be nil
13:07	gfredericks	or unbound
13:07	adeelkh	mfex: and i'm wondering how i would get `lein trampoline cljsbuild repl-listen` working
13:07	gfredericks	either way not what you want
13:07	xeqi	lemoq: (def inlist expr) immediately derefs expr and binds it to inlist
13:07	xeqi	you can use (def inlist #'expr) instead
13:08	hiredman	xeqi: only if the value of expr is going to be a function
13:10	lemoq	xeqi: what does #' stand for? kind of a delays deref?
13:10	gfredericks	#'foo === (var foo)
13:11	gfredericks	it gives you the var itself instead of the var's value
13:11	gfredericks	not normally useful except that when the var's value is a function, you can call the var as if it were a function, which gives you an extra level of indirection
13:12	mfex	adeelkh, I don't know of a client side version of the repl to be used inside nodejs scripts
13:12	xeqi	gfredericks: ah, yeah, thanks for catching that it has to be a function
13:12	gfredericks	xeqi: hiredman caught it. I wouldn't've
13:12	xeqi	heh, thanks hiredman
13:13	lemoq	works perfect, I am only passing functions around here
13:13	lemoq	thank's a lot guys!
13:40	kumarshantanu	Hey guys, anybody familiar with Lein2 profiles looking at this?
13:41	Borkdude	kumarshantanu: whatever you're going to ask, try #leiningen
13:42	kumarshantanu	Borkdude: Thanks!
13:47	tomoj	short variadic accumulator generator: (comp #(partial swap! % +) atom)
14:07	tankpilot	hi all. I'm about to pick noir for beginning web development with clojure
14:08	tankpilot	it seems like the clojure way of web dev... am I right? is there any more common/popular framework around the community now?
14:08	gfredericks	tankpilot: I think that's it. I've never used it though.
14:10	xeqi	tankpilot: noir seems to the popular starting point
14:13	xeqi	at a lower level there is compojure, which noir uses underneath
14:15	tankpilot	xeqi: thanks for the answer
15:23	LauJensen	Evening gents
15:23	hyPiRion	Evening.
15:34	Bronsa
16:05	patchwork	Hmm… any reason running lein deps on a freshly cloned repo would give "Operation timed out" errors?
16:05	patchwork	I can't run any lein commands
16:06	xeqi	is there a repo defined that is unaccessible?
16:06	patchwork	No extra repos are defined
16:07	patchwork	All the dependencies are on clojars
16:07	patchwork	It is quil, I was hoping to try it out
16:09	patchwork	Hmm… lein commands are not working on any repos
16:09	patchwork	They all have httpclient timeouts
16:09	patchwork	But I am connected to the internet?
16:09	Raynes	Are you sure? (har har har)
16:10	patchwork	Is there some repo lein depends on that could be down?
16:10	xeqi	do you have any maven proxy settings?
16:10	xeqi	not sure if that could cause it
16:10	patchwork	Raynes: I seem to be, since you can read my bewildered messages
16:11	patchwork	xeqi: Hmm… not that I know of. How could I check that?
16:12	xeqi	~/.m2/settings.xml I think, never used them
16:12	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
16:13	Raynes	clojurebot: Thanks for your clever interjection.
16:13	clojurebot	thanks for your suggestion, but as usual it is irrelevant
16:13	Raynes	Sick burn.
16:13	xeqi	haha
16:14	xeqi	patchwork: it should just be central and clojars for repos
16:14	patchwork	xeqi: That file doesn't exist, so I assume I don't have proxy settings
16:14	patchwork	should I create them?
16:14	xeqi	no
16:14	patchwork	I am using the latest leiningen binary from master
16:15	xeqi	lein version?
16:16	patchwork	`lein version` times out!
16:16	patchwork	what… is going on
16:16	xeqi	`cd .. && lein version`
16:16	Borkdude	patchwork: are you sure you are not making up our reactions yourself and you are indeed connected to the internet?
16:16	patchwork	Yeah, I'm in no project dir
16:17	patchwork	Borkdude: entirely possible, I will explore this further
16:17	patchwork	Yeah lein version won't complete!
16:17	neotyk	hello everyone
16:18	Borkdude	patchwork: did you just "install" leiningen, or change it's version?
16:18	Borkdude	neotyk: hi
16:18	patchwork	Borkdude: Yeah, I have the latest lein binary from the master branch on github
16:19	neotyk	patchwork: you compiled it?
16:19	Borkdude	what does it say when you just do "lein"?
16:19	patchwork	It hangs
16:20	Borkdude	patchwork: OS?
16:20	patchwork	neotyk: I would compile it, but `lein compile` hangs!
16:20	patchwork	MACOSX 10.6.8
16:21	patchwork	Is there another way to compile the lein binary without lein?
16:21	neotyk	patchwork: have you removed your ~/.m2/repository already?
16:21	patchwork	neotyk: Not lately
16:21	patchwork	you think that will help?
16:21	neotyk	patchwork: lein is there
16:21	patchwork	Does maven get into some inconsistent state somehow?
16:22	xeqi	or in ~/.lein/self-installs/
16:23	patchwork	removed ~/.lein/self-installs, it redownloaded, and is hanging again!
16:23	Borkdude	patchwork: fwiw, I'm on 10.7.4., just downloaded the lein script (which uses 2.0.0-snapshot) and when I run it it starts downloading the leiningen jar
16:23	neotyk	xeqi: right, I don't see it in m2 repo, but I see them in .lein
16:23	patchwork	blowing away .m2
16:24	patchwork	Thanks for the help guys, this is really weird
16:24	Borkdude	lein self-installs are stored in ~/.lein/self-installs
16:24	neotyk	patchwork: you can C-\ hanging lein, and gist output
16:25	Borkdude	patchwork: to be sure, throw away ~/.m2 and ~/.lein
16:25	Borkdude	patchwork: also if you have previous version of the lein script, be sure not to confuse them
16:26	neotyk	Borkdude: maybe we should do install party next ams-clj?
16:26	Borkdude	neotyk: why not
16:27	Borkdude	neotyk: if there are actually people who need this
16:27	neotyk	Borkdude: but then, it just works for us
16:28	patchwork	Alright, blew away ~/.m2 and ~/.lein, redownloaded, many deps started downloading right away but then it started hanging again!
16:28	patchwork	I wonder if this is because one of my plugins
16:28	Borkdude	patchwork: what plugins?
16:28	patchwork	Well, I have a ~/.lein/profiles.clj with some plugins defined
16:28	neotyk	there you go
16:28	Borkdude	neotyk: what do you mean?
16:28	Borkdude	patchwork: throw it able
16:28	Borkdude	away
16:28	patchwork	Alright
16:28	Borkdude	patchwork: or just rename .lein to .lein-backup or smth
16:29	patchwork	Oh brutal
16:29	patchwork	yeah one of the plugins was causing it
16:29	patchwork	Is there something that maps plugins to their respective repos?
16:30	patchwork	one of these must be coming from somewhere else
16:30	Borkdude	patchwork: maybe lein-newnew or smth?
16:30	Borkdude	patchwork: I can only guess, but nice that it's solved...
16:31	Borkdude	patchwork: I had also problems with profiles.clj causing the leiningen plugin in Eclipse to not work correctly, it's tricky
16:32	patchwork	Yeah that is rough, having lein's working properly depending on whether all plugin repos are functioning or not
16:33	patchwork	I don't even have that many, time to do some process of elimination
16:33	patchwork	Thanks for the help
16:33	Borkdude	patchwork: maybe you can let us know what caused the bug, it's helpful to share the knowledge
16:33	Borkdude	neotyk: I didn't understand what you meant by "it only works for us"
16:35	Borkdude	neotyk: how were the previous install fests, people actually came for that specifically?
16:37	neotyk	Borkdude: it only works for us ~ if there are actually people who need this
16:38	neotyk	as in, we don't need it
16:38	neotyk	Borkdude: after first Amsterdam October, we organized one install session, and once before
16:39	neotyk	Borkdude: but nobody asks for it, or we didn't ask
16:41	neotyk	Borkdude: it was basically getting lab repl setup in eclipse and intellij
16:41	gfredericks	what's the emacs thing that does the remote filesystems?
16:41	gfredericks	nm
16:41	Borkdude	neotyk: I see
16:43	espeed	What's the clojure naming convention for funcs that would have the same name as a built-in?
16:43	espeed	Do you add a hyphen? e.g. (defn long- [] ())
16:43	Raynes	No, you can just name them the same.
16:43	Borkdude	espeed: the same name is the same name ;)
16:44	Raynes	They will either shadow built in functions or clients can (require ...) them so as to not shadow the built ins.
16:44	Raynes	This is a common thing.
16:44	gfredericks	mildly annoying though
16:44	amalloy	well, it's not common. but it happens
16:44	neotyk	espeed: (:refer-clojure :exclude [await])
16:44	amalloy	sometimes people give them different names to avoid the confusion/difficulty, sometimes they use the same name. the latter is probably better
16:44	Raynes	amalloy: It's pretty common.
16:44	stuarthalloway	please use good names and namespace qualify
16:45	gfredericks	Raynes: amalloy: okay both of you specify an exact percentage of clojure libs that do this and then we will not bother to determine who was closest.
16:45	Raynes	See, stuarthalloway agrees with me. It was originally my idea though.
16:45	stuarthalloway	chronological order of IRC appearance != orginality :-)
16:45	neotyk	gfredericks: http.async.client uses it
16:46	Borkdude	good names like "contains?" so each day people come in asking why (contains? [4 5] 4) is false :P
16:46	Borkdude	(sorry)
16:46	hyPiRion	I like the difference between next and rest better.
16:47	hyPiRion	,(list (next [1]) (rest [1]))
16:47	clojurebot	(nil ())
16:47	stuarthalloway	re: contains? -- people who refuse to read even the first five words of docstrings should expect to be confused often :-)
16:48	gfredericks	,(->> contains? var meta :doc (re-seq #"\S") (take 5) (clojure.string/join " "))
16:48	clojurebot	"R e t u r"
16:49	gfredericks	ah, that explains it
16:49	gfredericks	,(->> contains? var meta :doc (re-seq #"\S+") (take 5) (clojure.string/join " "))
16:49	clojurebot	"Returns true if key is"
16:51	amalloy	&((juxt next rest) [1]) ;; hyPiRion
16:51	lazybot	⇒ [nil ()]
16:51	Raynes	Nuts.
17:00	gfredericks	so you can extend a sub and super type with the same protocol, and it picks the most specific implementation?
17:12	amalloy	yes
17:13	gfredericks	that is cool.
17:13	gfredericks	java methods work the same way?
17:14	gfredericks	wait
17:14	gfredericks	of course
17:14	gfredericks	O_O
17:15	gfredericks	where's -?> defined these days?
17:15	Bronsa	core.incubator
17:15	gfredericks	ah right, thx
17:15	Borkdude	,(doc -?>)
17:15	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
17:16	Borkdude	nice documentation ;)
17:16	gfredericks	Borkdude: is like -> but short-circuits as soon as nil
17:16	Bronsa	it's not part of clojure.core
17:16	Bronsa	it's in a library
17:17	LeNsTR	,(clojure-version)
17:17	clojurebot	"1.4.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
17:17	gfredericks	man incubator is on version 0.0.25
17:17	gfredericks	0.1.0 is a milestone now?
17:22	zakwilson	ring.adapter.jetty seems to lack any way to shut a server down. Is that inherent, or just missing?
17:23	weavejester	zakwilson: If you set :join? to false in the options, the adapter doesn't block and returns a Jetty Server object you can use to stop the server.
17:23	weavejester	zakwilson: Under normal use, the adapter blocks until the application ends.
17:29	zakwilson	weavejester: is destroy the correct method to call to shut it down?
17:29	weavejester	zakwilson: I believe there's a method called "stop" on the Server class.
17:30	zakwilson	Oh, there it is, from org.mortbay.component.AbstractLifeCycle. Ugh. Java APIs.
17:33	tmciver	weavejester: Just noticed in ring.mock that the header function lower-cases the header name. Is there a reason for that? Headers typically begin with a caplital letter.
17:35	weavejester	tmciver: Headers are case insensitive, while Clojure maps are case sensitive, so there needs to be some normalization.
17:35	gfredericks	lower-case letters are pretty
17:36	weavejester	tmciver: For instance, if there was a header "Content-type: text/html" you wouldn't want it to be parsed into a map {"Content-type" "text/html"} because that lowercase "t" would mean your code wouldn't work.
17:36	weavejester	tmciver: The easiest way to normalize a case insensitive string is to lower or uppercase it.
17:36	weavejester	tmciver: So Ring request maps use lower-case header names.
17:37	tmciver	weavejester: so Ring also lower cases the headers in the request?
17:37	weavejester	tmciver: Yep
17:38	tmciver	weavejester: which 't' are you referring to that would break the code?
17:38	weavejester	tmciver: "Content-type" with a lower "t" in the type, as compared to "Content-Type" which is the usual way of writing it.
17:38	weavejester	tmciver: In HTTP both are equivalent. In a Clojure map, they're different.
17:39	weavejester	,(let [headers {"Content-type" "text/html"}] (headers "Content-Type"))
17:39	clojurebot	nil
17:39	gfredericks	,(dotimes [n 5] (println "(inc weavejester)"))
17:39	clojurebot	(inc weavejester)
17:39	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:39	clojurebot	(inc weavejester)
17:39	lazybot	⇒ 2
17:39	clojurebot	(inc weavejester)
17:39	lazybot	⇒ 3
17:39	clojurebot	(inc weavejester)
17:39	lazybot	Do I smell abuse? Wait a while before modifying that person's karma again.
17:39	clojurebot	(inc weavejester)
17:40	lazybot	Do I smell abuse? Wait a while before modifying that person's karma again.
17:40	TimMc	haha!
17:40	tmciver	weavejester: OK, good enough. As long as Ring is self-consistent. :) Thanks.
17:41	TimMc	weavejester: Any new thoughts on the file-change event thing?
17:42	weavejester	TimMc: Yep, I did this: https://gist.github.com/2732467
17:43	weavejester	It could probably be made more general
17:44	weavejester	But basically I add a watch on the atom, which means I don't have to make or use a separate event-registering service
17:44	weavejester	And then I use a promise to wait for the value.
17:44	weavejester	Using a promise to deliver a boolean that's always true is a little… bad I guess.
17:45	weavejester	But a more general function that returned a more specific result would, I think, be idiomatic.
17:45	weavejester	Since we want to watch a ref, and then deliver a value when something happens, which is a promise.
17:46	weavejester	The full code is here: https://github.com/weavejester/ring-refresh/blob/master/src/ring/middleware/refresh.clj
17:47	gfredericks	in dnolen's new extending-core.logic wiki page, why is there no need to unify Datum with LVar?
17:50	gfredericks	and why does this fail? (macrolet [(foo [] (list 'deftype 'FOO ['x]))] (foo))
17:53	TimMc	weavejester: Did you see this suggestion? http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2012-05-18.html#16:12
17:54	weavejester	TimMc: Oh, no, but I kinda did that by using a timestamp
17:54	weavejester	TimMc: Each time a file is updated, an atom is reset with the most recent modification date.
17:55	weavejester	TimMc: Then each page creates a watcher on the atom that looks for when the timestamp in the atom is more recent than when the page was loaded.
17:57	TimMc	weavejester: It looks like your current code will wait up to 60 seconds, but has no minimum.
17:57	weavejester	TimMc: Right
17:58	weavejester	TimMc: I guess it would make sense to limit it
17:58	weavejester	TimMc: In case some automatic process is rapidly updating a file in a watched directory
17:59	weavejester	TimMc: Though that would be more "rate" than a minimum wait time.
18:17	TimMc	weavejester: Maybe what you want is this: Wait for up to 1 minute for any event, but return no sooner than 100 ms after the first event.
18:17	TimMc	A double-timer system.
18:18	weavejester	TimMc: Maybe… I'm not too worried, though, as people can always kill the tab or the server if it starts refreshing too much.
18:19	TimMc	Certainly, build for what you know is needed.
18:21	weavejester	It's basically for development only
18:25	TimMc	Oh!
18:25	TimMc	That makes it easier.
18:27	weavejester	TimMc: It's so I can make changes to a web page without needing to switch to the web browser and hit the refresh button
18:36	madsy	Anyone know if seesaw's xyz-panel or when-mouse-dragged behavior is buggy? It jumps all over the place here.
18:47	muhoo	i find clojure code a lot easier to reason about than other OOP, except now that i'm getting into ring and noir. wrappers around wrappers around handlers, i'm getting lost.
18:48	muhoo	it's starting to remind me less of FP and more of OOP, in particular, diving down rabbit holes to figure out what is actually happening.
19:07	agriffis	how can I get a sorted-map from zip-map? (I'm new to clojure.)
19:08	agriffis	zipmap I mean.
19:08	amalloy	(into (sorted-map) ...)
19:10	agriffis	heh, I was about to paste that.
19:10	agriffis	(into (sorted-map) (zipmap old-ids new-ids))
19:10	agriffis	needing to call sorted-map threw me there.
19:10	agriffis	amalloy: thanks
19:13	agriffis	out of curiosity, if you wanted to do it with apply, how would that go? (apply sorted-map ...)
19:14	amalloy	ugh don't :P
19:14	agriffis	ok :-)
19:14	amalloy	but: (apply sorted-map (interleave olds news))
19:14	agriffis	oh, gotcha
19:14	amalloy	i mean, that's actually a more performant solution in this case, i guess
19:14	amalloy	maybe
19:14	agriffis	it avoids the conversion, which is kinda nice.
19:16	amalloy	i'd probably write (into (sorted-map) (map vector olds news)), just because i don't like using interleave to construct argument lists, but i'm probably wrong
19:17	agriffis	thanks, I appreciate seeing the possibilities.
19:25	madsy	Any people with seesaw here who could confirm a bug for me?
19:39	agriffis	This is almost what I want: (.quote #"" mystring)
19:39	agriffis	IllegalArgumentException No matching method found: quote for class java.util.regex.Pattern clojure.lang.Reflector.invokeMatchingMethod (Reflector.java:53)
19:39	agriffis	The reason it's almost is because I want the class method...
19:41	agriffis	The java interop page doesn't really give clues about importing Java classes.
19:41	amalloy	&(java.util.regex.Pattern/quote ...)?
19:41	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: ... in this context
19:42	agriffis	oh! dots instead of slashes
19:42	agriffis	perfect! thanks again amalloy
19:45	ethanis	hey all
19:45	ethanis	I'm writing my first clojure-backed web application
19:45	ethanis	and I've just started fiddling with using clojurescript for the client-side code
19:46	ethanis	I'm managing the project with leiningen
19:46	ethanis	and since changing the source-path to "src-clj", I'm getting a ClassNotFoundException when I try doing lein run
19:46	ethanis	here's a gist with relevant documents: https://gist.github.com/2732826
19:46	ethanis	any idea what the cause might be?
19:47	ethanis	lein version is 2.0.0-preview4 if that's at all helpful
19:50	muhoo	how would i flatten a list, not completely, but just the FIRST level
19:51	amalloy	~flatten
19:51	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
19:53	muhoo	concat, thanks
19:59	zakwilson	Thinking about the various lisp-to-sql compilers I've seen... might it be better to directly manipulate maps that represent the query rather than try to express things in terms of functions? Korma does something like that internally, but why not make that the interface you use directly?
20:02	muhoo	why couldn't you? doesn't korma expose those?
20:06	zakwilson	muhoo: you could. It's not idiomatic though, and the representation might be subject to change.
20:10	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/polycosm is kind of neat
20:14	zakwilson	hiredman: that looks very useful. I have some code that uses clojure data structures serialized to byte strings for performance, and this would provide a cleaner way to keep on top of different versions.
20:16	hiredman	it still needs a nice clean way to communicate between runtimes, what I have now is via a local messagebus, but that seems kind of silly for things in the same jvm
20:16	hiredman	and a clean unloading of modules, but that will be very tricky
21:02	muhoo	is this even a legal defn form: (defn foo {:something "bah" :somethingelse "baz"} [{:id somesym}] (do soemthing)) ?
21:03	muhoo	if so, what does that first map do?
21:05	gfredericks	(defn foo {} [] nil) compiles
21:06	ibdknox	looks like a failed attempt at metadata to me
21:06	gfredericks	it sounds vaguely familiar but I can't remember anything about it
21:07	muhoo	ibdknox: it's in noir.core/defpage :-)
21:07	muhoo	i'm trying to figure out what it does and why
21:07	ibdknox	hm?
21:08	muhoo	https://www.refheap.com/paste/2799
21:08	ibdknox	ah
21:08	ibdknox	yeah
21:08	ibdknox	that adds meta
21:08	ibdknox	,(doc defn)
21:08	clojurebot	"([name doc-string? attr-map? [params] prepost-map? ...] [name doc-string? attr-map? ([params] prepost-map? body) + ...]); Same as (def name (fn [params* ] exprs)) or (def name (fn ([params ] exprs*)+)) with any doc-string or attrs added to the var metadata. prepost-map defines a map with optional keys :pre and :post that contain collections of pre or post conditions."
21:09	gfredericks	any advantage to that form?
21:09	ibdknox	no
21:09	muhoo	ok thanks
21:09	ibdknox	at least not that I know of
21:10	ibdknox	I think at the time I thought it would add the meta to function
21:10	ibdknox	but it doesn't :(
21:11	muhoo	ah! that'd explain why (meta GET--foo) returns nil
21:12	ibdknox	muhoo: yeah you need to do it on the var
21:12	muhoo	(meta #'GET--foo), gotcha, but none of that other stuff is in there. ok.
21:13	muhoo	might just patch that and pull request. i know you're busy these days.
21:21	netrino	do we have for clojure something like slim or haml?
21:27	hiredman	netrino: yes, it is called "reading data structure literals from a file"
21:27	muhoo	netrino: stencil/moustache , or hiccup?
21:28	netrino	I don't want sexpr-ed html
21:29	muhoo	maybe https://github.com/davidsantiago/stencil then
21:31	netrino	muhoo: thanks, I'll take a look at it
21:31	derrida	netrino: what's wrong with sexp mappings?
21:32	netrino	derrida: it looks ugly for me when writing html
21:32	muhoo	:-o
21:34	netrino	arrr, mustache even uglier :(
21:34	netrino	moustache*
21:35	muhoo	you keep using that word. i do not think it means what you think it means :-)
21:37	netrino	muhoo: ok. i mean that's it doesn't looks nice for my eyes, it that correct meaning? :)
21:38	derrida	look nice compared to what
21:39	muhoo	i guess there's no accounting for taste, as the saying goes.
21:41	derrida	;)
21:42	netrino	derrida: slim looks ok for me. much less noise comprarely to html or sexpr. maybe i'll get used to sexpr-ed html in the future
21:43	derrida	netrino: are you new to lisp(s)?
21:44	muhoo	for example, i'm trying to understand how macros work by taking apart noir.core, and trying to understand hof's and fp by taking apart ring/compojure. i'm suspect that might be considered insane, but that's what i'm doing.
21:44	ethanis	if you're requiring a protocol from another package
21:44	ethanis	can you use the standard (:require bla :only (MyProtocol)) syntax?
21:45	ethanis	I mean: (:require [bla :only (MyProtocol)])
21:45	ethanis	:require/:use
21:47	netrino	derrida: not exactly. i'm ok with lisp syntax. i just don't like how html looks in terms of lisp. i also don't like how html looks by itself. that's why i tried to find something instead of hiccup, which would be similar to slim (which is the most easy to read as for me)
21:49	muhoo	ethanis: while procrastinating, i tried that, and it works
21:49	muhoo	also, wow, speaking of metadata, protocols have a buttload of metadata on them, looks like
21:49	ethanis	ha, thanks muhoo
21:50	muhoo	ah, it's not metadata, protocols seem to be maps. a rabbit hole for another time.
22:10	XPherior	How does Clojure handle persistence abstraction? Whenever I look up how to do persistence in Clojure, I see lots of MySQL or MongoDB calls scattered throughout code. Not good!
22:16	jasonjckn	XPherior: datomic.com
22:16	XPherior	jasonjckn: I thought Datomic is a specific type of database. It's a service layer, too?
22:16	jasonjckn	XPherior: spit/slurp api's do file I/O, which is a form of persistence
22:17	XPherior	Datalog is so intimidating, at least for me.. Hah
22:17	jasonjckn	What exactly are you looking for, persistence is a pretty general thing
22:17	XPherior	jasonjckn: That's true. I just wish that persistence services extended to the database realm.
22:17	XPherior	jasonjckn: Well, I come from the Rails world. So something akin to Active Record?
22:18	jasonjckn	i'm not familiar with active record, but there's definitely some options available to you, ibdknox would know better
22:18	jasonjckn	i'll google one sec
22:18	XPherior	jasonjckn: It's just an ORM. You never have any database specific code on your model layers.
22:19	jasonjckn	Right, yah, if you're looking for the clojure interpretation of ORM it's datomic :)
22:19	ibdknox	hm?
22:19	jasonjckn	but i'm sure there's already some library in clojure for ORM style
22:19	ibdknox	datomic is a datastore
22:19	XPherior	I'm finding Datomic a little hard to understand. Maybe I just need to keep at it.
22:19	jasonjckn	ibdknox: he wants something akin to active record
22:20	ibdknox	there isn't one
22:20	XPherior	I figured.
22:20	ibdknox	doesn't make much sense in Clojure
22:20	ibdknox	the closest thing is clj-record
22:20	ibdknox	but don't use that
22:20	ibdknox	you'll be sad
22:20	XPherior	It just feels so wrong to see raw SQL in the model files
22:20	XPherior	Like, say I want to swap out my DB's. That'll be a massive pain
22:20	ibdknox	why would you want to swap dbs?
22:20	XPherior	Also, ibdknox, it already made me sad. Haha.
22:21	XPherior	Because requirements and needs change. You never know, dude
22:21	gfredericks	(swap! db mysql->postgres)
22:21	XPherior	Har har
22:21	ibdknox	I've never seen that really work in practice
22:21	ibdknox	lol
22:21	ibdknox	but I guess if you don't care about optimizing
22:21	ibdknox	then it would work
22:21	XPherior	Clojure is big on abstractions, right? Why not with the database details?
22:22	gfredericks	clojure.java.jdbc is a bit of an abstraction, isn't it?
22:22	ibdknox	clojure.java.jdbc does that
22:22	ibdknox	korma is built on top of that
22:22	ibdknox	http://sqlkorma.com
22:22	XPherior	Everytime I see JDBC I run in the other direction screaming. I'll look into it then
22:22	gfredericks	that's funny every time I see activerecord I have the same reaction
22:22	XPherior	Ah, yeah I've seen this. But I feel like I'm just sticking in SQL still
22:23	XPherior	Haha, gfredericks
22:23	XPherior	Eh, you know what. I'll just suck it up and try to write something with Korma and see how I feel about it when I'm done.
22:25	XPherior	Wish I could get a Clojure job out of college. That would make me very happy.
22:26	ibdknox	XPherior: ReadyForZero is hiring
22:26	gfredericks	at clojure west folks had so many jobs in their pockets their pants were falling down
22:26	XPherior	gfredericks: Hahaha
22:26	XPherior	ibdknox: Where are they located?
22:26	ibdknox	SF
22:26	ibdknox	downtown
22:26	ibdknox	great guys
22:26	XPherior	Ah, darn. I'm moving to Philly.
22:27	XPherior	Sounds like it
22:27	ibdknox	good problem
22:27	XPherior	Philly/NYC is probably best for start up on East coast
22:27	ibdknox	why stay east?
22:27	XPherior	Family.
22:27	gfredericks	weather!
22:28	amalloy	just tell 'em they're holding you back. family loves that
22:28	ibdknox	weather?
22:28	amalloy	ibdknox: intended counterargument, i think
22:28	gfredericks	weather.
22:28	ibdknox	west coast weather is much nicer than the east coast
22:28	ibdknox	:p
22:28	XPherior	amalloy: You tryin' to get me killed?
22:28	gfredericks	for incorrect definitions of "nicer", perhaps
22:29	ibdknox	lol
22:30	gfredericks	this extending core.logic thing is not straightforward
22:31	jasonjckn	XPherior: i'm leaving my family in canada for technological jobs in san fran
22:31	jasonjckn	XPherior: listen to your inner geek
22:31	XPherior	Hah, jasonjckn. I wouldn't enjoy my job as much, honestly.
22:31	XPherior	Wouldn't be worth it for me.
22:31	XPherior	More power to you, though
22:32	XPherior	The only thing more boring than sitting through a software requirements class is studying for the exam. Dear God.
22:33	gfredericks	XPherior: what's a use case?
22:33	yoklov	hm, puting mutable things in a set, bad idea, right?
22:33	gfredericks	yoklov: bad idea
22:33	XPherior	gfredericks: Just shoot me in the head. We had like 4 lectures on UC's
22:33	jasonjckn	mutable things… bad idea
22:33	gfredericks	gotta mutate _something_
22:33	yoklov	gfredericks: how about atoms?
22:34	ibdknox	I don't go for use cases, I try to make completely useless things as much as possible. Ends up much simpler that way :D
22:34	gfredericks	yoklov: why the hookie are they in a set?
22:34	ibdknox	that will technically work
22:34	ibdknox	because of the way hash is implemented
22:34	gfredericks	XPherior: draw the use cases out in a sequence diagram
22:35	yoklov	gfredericks: yeah, was just curious about that, these aren't atoms
22:35	XPherior	My answers for that class are usually "Uh.. Let's just write acceptance tests."
22:35	XPherior	Hookie... Haha
22:36	gfredericks	,#{(atom 4) (atom 4)}
22:36	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: (atom 4)>
22:36	jasonjckn	yah that's really annoying
22:36	ibdknox	lol
22:36	gfredericks	,(let [a (atom 3) b (atom 4) s #{a b}] (swap! a inc) (count s))
22:36	clojurebot	2
22:36	jasonjckn	You can't do this in your DSL: (my-macro {_ 3 _ 4} )
22:37	jasonjckn	because the symbol _ is duplicate key
22:37	yoklov	and yeah, mutation is a bad idea, but i've been making games in clojure, and i'm trying to find the balance between 'a total pain in the ass to manage due to having state' and 'a total pain in the ass to manage due to having no state'
22:37	ibdknox	it will work in CLJS because hash uses some magical goog id thing
22:37	yoklov	huh, good to know
22:38	jasonjckn	yoklov: I made a very simple game, a single atom, and it was so refreshing compared to my C++ days
22:38	gfredericks	(->> 50 (range) (map atom) (def united-states))
22:38	jasonjckn	yoklov: i developed the whole game interactively, never restarted the process
22:38	gfredericks	oh forgot to put them in a set
22:38	ibdknox	lol
22:39	yoklov	jasonjckn: it doesn't really scale up that well though
22:39	ibdknox	yoklov: have you looked at my sub-atom implementation?
22:39	yoklov	ibdknox: i have not
22:39	jasonjckn	yoklov: I know :(
22:39	ibdknox	it's in crate
22:39	ibdknox	under binding
22:39	jasonjckn	yoklov: if you're doing serious game dev, you care about every cpu cycle
22:39	yoklov	jasonjckn: well, you do during the render loop at least
22:39	gfredericks	well not _every_ one. just most of them.
22:40	jasonjckn	nods
22:40	yoklov	the issue is more that you can't have any cyclic data
22:41	yoklov	i think thats my problem at least, some game type things just end up being absurdly hard to do without state, but I feel like there might be a balance somewhere.
22:41	ibdknox	subatoms let you fake it a bit
22:42	ibdknox	that won't address the speed issue though
22:44	yoklov	ibdknox: yeah, i'm looking at it right now, so what exactly is it? just what it sounds like?
22:45	ibdknox	more or less
22:45	ibdknox	it lets you keep a reference to some part of an atom
22:45	ibdknox	and swap it and deref and such
22:45	yoklov	oh, that's really interesting
22:46	ibdknox	it reconciles the one atom to rule them all thing
22:46	gfredericks	so if you had an (atom {:apple 2 :pear 4}) you could get a reference to your atom's apple?
22:46	ibdknox	~rimshot
22:46	clojurebot	Badum, tish
22:49	yoklov	yeah, i haven't been that big of a fan of the 'state of the world in an atom' thing, seems like a nice fix (though, it seems somewhat out of place in crate)
22:50	ibdknox	I needed it for databinding to work
22:50	jasonjckn	yoklov: why can't you have cyclic data?
22:50	gfredericks	cyclic data and immutable data structures hate each other
22:50	yoklov	jasonjckn: how would you make cyclic data without any reference types?
22:50	jasonjckn	i was assuming ref types, nvm
22:51	yoklov	ibdknox: yeah, by the way, is that stuff in clojars/usable from lein yet?
22:51	ibdknox	I thought I pushed it
22:51	ibdknox	maybe I didn't
22:51	yoklov	you may have, but hadn't last i checked (a while ago)
22:52	yoklov	seems to be
22:52	ibdknox	just pushed an alpha3 with the absolute latest I have
22:52	ibdknox	well
22:52	ibdknox	clojars is being slow
22:52	ibdknox	but it'll be there in a sec
22:54	gfredericks	,(let [a (atom nil) b (atom a)] (reset! a b) a)
22:54	clojurebot	#<Atom@146d732: #<Atom@1da2ce4: #<Atom@146d732: #<Atom@1da2ce4: #<Atom@146d732: #<Atom@1da2ce4: #<Atom@146d732: #<Atom@1da2ce4: #<Atom@146d732: #<Atom@1da2ce4: #>>>>>>>>>>
22:54	gfredericks	who knew after five cycles it finishes.
22:56	yoklov	i remember in racket there was a way to make immutable cyclic data structures, which would be nice in clojure, but i think it required even more primitives and i can't imagine it would be worth it in clojure.
22:57	yoklov	it's nice to use a language which cares about the size of it's core
23:06	muhoo	what in the world would @foo# mean? and no, it's not an atom or ref
23:07	gfredericks	it means (deref foo#)
23:08	muhoo	hmm, i guess you can deref things that aren't atoms? interesting
23:08	gfredericks	if it's inside a backtick the foo# will get gensymed
23:08	muhoo	it is indeed
23:08	gfredericks	,(-> 1 (+ 2) delay deref)
23:08	clojurebot	3
23:08	gfredericks	you can deref all sorts of things
23:08	gfredericks	atoms, refs, vars, agents, futures, promises, wedding cakes
23:09	tmciver	the cake is a lie!
23:09	muhoo	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IDeref
23:09	gfredericks	hell I once saw a feller deref an old sheep dog what couldn't walk on all fours anymore
23:11	muhoo	functions can't be derefed, apparently, either
23:11	gfredericks	in clojureql you would build query objects and then deref them
23:12	muhoo	ah, but the var that holds the function can. got it light bulb
23:12	muhoo	(deref #'argh) --> does not blow up
23:13	muhoo	heh @#'argh
23:13	gfredericks	muhoo: that's a good way to get at private vars
23:13	muhoo	i wonder what's the longest string of looks-like-cursing characters that can be put together without the compiler puking
23:13	tomoj	it's unfortunate that IDerefWithTimeout doesn't fit well with cljs
23:14	gfredericks	,(read-string "@#'!?")
23:14	clojurebot	(clojure.core/deref (var !?))
23:14	muhoo	heh
23:15	gfredericks	,(read-string "@#'!?$%*")
23:15	clojurebot	(clojure.core/deref (var !?$))
23:15	gfredericks	hm
23:15	gfredericks	,(read-string "(@#'!?$%*)")
23:15	clojurebot	((clojure.core/deref (var !?$)) %*)
23:16	gfredericks	symbols can't have %'s after the first character apparently
23:16	metellus	,(read-string ";@$%&%^#%^^(^#%$%%(&($^&#")
23:16	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
23:17	metellus	,(read-string "(@#'!?$%);@$%&%^#%^^*(^#%$%%(&($^&#")
23:17	clojurebot	((clojure.core/deref (var !?$)) %*)
23:17	metellus	success!
23:27	amalloy	tomoj: why not? ajax calls happen on another thread; you could try-to-deref them
23:35	tomoj	and it blocks for timeout-val if the call doesn't finish? what does 'block' mean?
23:37	tomoj	maybe there's some sensible semantics, I dunno
23:37	tomoj	but I want protocols in cljs that don't exist in clojure yet, whatever cljque is an attempt at finding
23:38	tomoj	actually I can't think of any sensible semantics unless you have continuations baked in to cljs or something
23:39	tomoj	s/timeout-val/msec/
23:40	tomoj	or something like lamina's async macro?
23:41	tomoj	then you could translate a deref with a timeout into the async analogue of lamina's IDerefWithTimeout impl
23:47	gfredericks	I am putting ~' all over the place. It is time for misquote.
23:50	tomoj	for writing macros?
23:50	tomoj	I don't understand the use case for misquote I mean
23:50	gfredericks	sexp templating
23:51	gfredericks	but yeah writing macros
23:51	tomoj	like hiccup style?
23:51	gfredericks	in the rare cases where you don't want the backquote symbol expansion
23:52	tomoj	wouldn't dropping ` just make them hairier?
23:52	gfredericks	not in this case
23:52	gfredericks	this is more like code generation
23:52	gfredericks	generating giant deftypes and related things
23:53	tomoj	are you actually saving out the code to files? I ask because I have wondered about that
23:53	gfredericks	no
23:53	gfredericks	compile-time
23:54	gfredericks	so rather than (deftype Foo [x1 x2 x3 ... x100]) I have a macro that does that