#clojure – 2012-05-18

2012-05-18

00:00	fil512	it kinda feels like you have to be above-average smart to develope in it, and it's easy to write code that's hard to understand...
00:00	PeregrinePDX	I don't think I am above average smart for a programmer.
00:00	PeregrinePDX	I'm also pretty new to clojure and it takes me awhile but I can figure out a lot of clojure.
00:01	ivan__	fil512: i think you have to be open minded more than smart - so many developers never seem to want to try anything new
00:01	fil512	I want to have the confidence that anyone from any team could walk up to the clojure code and understand what it's doing. but I worry this is not the case with clojure the way it is with more structured languages like java
00:02	fil512	I work on million dollar software projects. Our code has to be maintainable.
00:02	fil512	I'm always keeping an eye out for the next big thing.
00:02	fil512	Clojure is a candidate right now.
00:03	fil512	But is it a "business grade" programming language.
00:03	fil512	That's what I'm trying to figure out...
00:03	ivan__	fil512: should watch the infoq presentation the guardian did on there move to scala - its maybe not directly related to clojure but it was interesting about java guys trying something new
00:04	fil512	I've heard disastrous things about scala. Definitely not an option for us.
00:04	fil512	My impression of scala is some guy got impatient with java not having all the stuff he wanted in a language and so he invented a way to extend java so he could put all that cool stuff in...
00:04	ivan__	haha i dont think thats true at all
00:05	fil512	clojure feels orders of magnitude better thought out than scala
00:05	fil512	variable immutability as a way to deal with multi-core
00:05	fil512	super-clean kernel
00:06	fil512	when the robot overlords take over the world, they will code in clojure
00:06	brehaut	immutable data is a way to deal with reason in general. multi-core happens to fall out of that
00:06	brehaut	but its far more valuable than just that
00:06	ivan__	clojure is nice - but scala has its good points to. One of them is that its easy for java guys to get started
00:07	eggsby	ya ivan__
00:07	fil512	C# is easy for Java guys to learn too. That's not a criteria for me.
00:07	eggsby	we have a lot of scala guys at work, only a few clj
00:07	ivan__	yeah, immutable data is the way to go - scala provides nice things for that too
00:07	fil512	been good chatting
00:07	fil512	gtg
00:07	fil512	thanks for the help!
00:08	ivan__	seeya
00:08	ivan__	idk, im all for clojure - but if you have 120 guys that dont know it, but know java - it seems like it would be a big deal to move to it heh
00:08	eggsby	I think the biggest practical difference between clojure and scala, while both can mostly implement the features of the other without too much pain, if you switch from java to scala you don't need to learn anything, just a bit of syntax
00:09	mtkoan	I shudder at the thought of 120 programmers
00:09	eggsby	but if you switch to clojure, you'll have to completely change how you think about writing programs
00:09	eggsby	i.e. you can have 10 years of java experience and pick up scala in a few days, clojure would probably take a few weeks/months if you haven't had prior FP experience
00:09	ivan__	there arent many scala guys at work (and no clojure), but i can get away with using scala as long as I keep it nice and clean and dont try and do stuopid stuff with type system - java guys can read the code
00:10	eggsby	if you are using groovy you could probably switch to scala without people really noticing :p
00:10	ivan__	eggsby: yeah - for me I started by writting scala in a very java way, over time i learnt how to work with immutable data, fp stuff etc
00:11	ivan__	not that i want to rant on about scala in #clojure haha - but i was just finding it wierd the objections that guy has to it
00:11	eggsby	I liked fogus' talk about macros, where he implemented BASIC as a DSL in scala, then showed how because it didn't have macros parts of the language peeked through in the implementation
00:12	ivan__	this was before 2.10?
00:12	ivan__	(2.10 has macros)
00:13	ivan__	macros in scala dont make a lot of sense to me yet - ive seen one example but i understood the use in clojure a lot easier
00:13	eggsby	ah, must've been
00:13	eggsby	but ya lol @ scala not being enterprise grade, hi twitter
00:14	eggsby	ONE MILLION DOLLARS
00:14	eggsby	:)
00:14	ivan__	The Guardian... they started out by using scala for doing the java test code - to make it interesting
00:14	ivan__	would be cool if i could do the same thing with clojure
00:15	eggsby	Clojure has been an enlightening experience. Kind of a lesson in the power of abstractions
00:16	eggsby	I've been making the finishing touches to a system I built for work in clojure, the architecture from it was lifted from ring's middleware implementation, seemed like a good way to model transformations over data... then I ran into this article today: stuartsierra.com/2012/05/16/syntactic-pipelines
00:16	eggsby	I had a lot of the same problems, repeated logic deep inside function bodies, seeing that repetition just plucked away with macros is so beautiful
00:17	eggsby	I guess any language with metaprogramming capabilities can make something like that happen, but it just seems so elegant/general in clj/lisp
02:09	Raynes	People should be talking in this channel.
02:10	PeregrinePDX	Sorry I was reading Clojure Programming
02:14	PeregrinePDX	I suppose I could put my random thoughts regarding learning clojure in here rather then in a PM window to someone I know.
02:14	PeregrinePDX	But really I don't know that people are that interested that I find the existance of empty as a pleasant surprise.
02:20	PeregrinePDX	Although my cat seems to think learning clojure is a poor choice of my time and it would be better spent petting her.
02:21	Raynes	PeregrinePDX: It is late enough and quiet enough that your random thoughts should be socially acceptable.
02:21	Raynes	And if they serve to keep me entertained, rest assured that I will hold off the beasts.
02:43	PeregrinePDX	Oh I like the existance of transients although I imagin some people prematurely optimize things by using them too much.
02:50	amalloy	PeregrinePDX: i don't think that happens very often
02:51	amalloy	clojure is very...firm on the topic of immutability, and nobody uses transients just for fun. records, now...those get used prematurely all the time
02:51	PeregrinePDX	Then clojure programmers are far more disciplined then some of my former coworkers.
02:52	amalloy	as a nice aside, i (and probably you) often write code that benefits from transients without having to think about it: ##(doc into) uses a transient under the hood
02:52	lazybot	⇒ "([to from]); Returns a new coll consisting of to-coll with all of the items of from-coll conjoined."
02:52	PeregrinePDX	Yeah, the clojure programming book I am reading was explaining that about into.
03:02	aperiodic	speaking of records, i have a thing (bezier curve) that i want to be able to use like a map is basically every way besides when it's invoked
03:02	aperiodic	what's the easiest way to do that?
03:03	aperiodic	s/is basically/in basically/
03:20	amalloy	aperiodic: maybe (defrecord Bezier [] clojure.lang.IFn (invoke [this arg] ...))?
03:30	kral	namaste
03:33	aperiodic	amalloy: is that sufficient? i remember hearing something about a gotcha if you don't implement all the arities for invoke in BG's clojure/west talk, but it might've been minor
03:33	amalloy	i guess you probably also have to implement applyTo
03:36	aperiodic	i should really get in the habit of checking clojure's source
03:38	amalloy	good habit to have
03:41	aperiodic	yeah, i'm just a little irrationally reluctant about reading java, and the style will probably take me a little getting used to
05:50	xumingmingv	can some one explain this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4921566/clojure-returning-a-vector-from-an-anonymous-function
05:50	xumingmingv	(explain the accepted answer)
05:50	xumingmingv	i know list is function call
05:51	xumingmingv	vector is also function call?
05:52	babilen	&([1 2 3] 0)
05:52	lazybot	⇒ 1
05:52	Borkdude	xumingmingv: ##([1 2 3]) ;; calling a vector from function position with no args
05:52	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: PersistentVector
05:52	Borkdude	xumingmingv: ##(vector 1 2 3) ;; calling the vector "function" to construct a vector
05:52	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 3]
05:52	babilen	xumingmingv: You can use (vector index) to get an element at the given index
05:54	xumingmingv	ah, ok, i got it
05:54	xumingmingv	do you guys feels it confusing?
05:55	Borkdude	xumingmingv: anonymous function with #-notation tricked me before as well
05:55	babilen	Not much -- The same works with maps (i.e. ##({:a 1} :a} == (get {:a 1} :a)
05:55	Borkdude	xumingmingv: ,((fn [] [1 2 3]))
05:55	Borkdude	xumingmingv: ##((fn [] [1 2 3]))
05:55	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 3]
05:56	Borkdude	xumingmingv: with this notation #( … how to return a vector directly? I think you can't )
05:57	Borkdude	xumingmingv: a literal that is. by calling the vector "fn" you can
05:57	Borkdude	,(#(vector 1 2 3))
05:57	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
05:59	xumingmingv	thanks you guys, Borkdude babilen
06:00	Borkdude	wow this is ugly… ##(+ 1 2 3 nil)
06:00	lazybot	java.lang.NullPointerException
06:03	myarray	please, can anyone explain, what is the motivation of max-key / min-key functions in returning the last match instead of first?
06:03	myarray	(apply max-key count [[1 2] [3 4] [5] [6 7] [8]])
06:04	Borkdude	,(doc max-key)
06:04	clojurebot	"([k x] [k x y] [k x y & more]); Returns the x for which (k x), a number, is greatest."
06:04	Borkdude	myarray: it probably uses reduce
06:05	Borkdude	myarray: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L4419
06:06	Raynes	Well, it has too...
06:06	Raynes	I mean, if you want a sane algorithm.
06:06	Borkdude	Raynes: yes
06:06	Raynes	It has to go through all of them to know what the greatest is, so it makes sense for it to return the last greatest it finds.
06:07	Raynes	Though it could return the first it finds.
06:08	Borkdude	Raynes: or all the maxima
06:09	Borkdude	(what is the plural of maximum in English? maximums?)
06:10	Raynes	&(apply (fn [k & xs] (reduce #(if (> (k %2) (k %)) %2 %) xs)) count [[1 2] [3 4] [5] [6 7] [8]])
06:10	lazybot	⇒ [1 2]
06:11	Raynes	myarray: ^
06:11	Raynes	If you need that behavior.
06:17	Borkdude	Raynes: sleep well
06:17	Borkdude	TEttinger: did you see my refactoring yesterday of your function?
06:19	myarray	&(apply max-key count [[1 2] [3 4] [5] [6 7] [8]])
06:19	lazybot	⇒ [6 7]
06:19	myarray	it returns the last matching element
06:20	myarray	imho its not very intuitive
06:20	Borkdude	myarray: it is because it has to traverse all of the collection
06:20	myarray	should be [1 2]. I am curious why it is so, what is the idea behind returning the last
06:21	Borkdude	myarray: see the source https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L4419
06:21	Borkdude	myarray: if you want it the other way, use Raynes his variation
06:21	myarray	no its not. Well, it does have to traverse, but it can keep the already found max value if it has found the same max value
06:21	Borkdude	myarray: this is what Raynes his version does
06:23	myarray	My question is not "how to". My question is why it does it, what is the motivation?
06:24	myarray	other FP languages that have max-key like functions return the first match if there are few equal max values
06:24	myarray	is it some kind of Lisp behavior legacy?
06:25	Borkdude	myarray: I think with these kinds of functions you should not depend on order anyway, so what's the big deal?
06:26	Borkdude	myarray: it's just a choice. the version in core is a short elegant version, which produces a valid result
06:26	myarray	There is only one character in max-key function that should be changed in order to get the intuitive behavior.
06:27	TEttinger	Borkdude, yes! thanks for that.
06:27	babilen	I don;t necessarily find that behaviour to be more intuitive. max-key makes no promises regarding the order.
06:29	myarray	well, may be it should :-)
06:29	myarray	consider a solution for this task http://www.4clojure.com/problem/53
06:29	Borkdude	myarray: you mean replace > with >= ?
06:30	myarray	one of them would be building a sequence of all possible seqs and then getting the first max
06:31	myarray	otherwise, you have to "reverse" it before. But returning the first "winner of the hill" seems to be more intuitive to me
06:31	myarray	Borkdude: yes
06:31	TEttinger	Borkdude, just so you know, it won't compile as-is
06:31	myarray	Borkdude: or swapping left and right args
06:33	myarray	Borkdude: it depends on reduce1 which private, if you are trying to make a copy of max-key in your own ns, you should have your reduce1 as well
06:35	Borkdude	TEttinger: ah yes, you have to reverse the order of the function definitions
06:36	TEttinger	Borkdude, yeah, all it took was that, and changing a call to left? to left-col?
06:39	Borkdude	TEttinger: ok changed it
06:39	Borkdude	TEttinger: I think the algorithm can be much simpler though ;-)
06:39	TEttinger	thanks, yeah
06:40	TEttinger	how do you think it would, though?
06:41	TEttinger	oh. i think i have a bug already
06:41	TEttinger	(path-in-matrix 0 11) will walk over a corner, which it isn't supposed to do
06:42	Borkdude	TEttinger: I don't know what your algorithm is supposed to do exactly
06:42	TEttinger	yeah, it is meant to be a highlighter for a 1D-imitating-2D vector
06:43	TEttinger	so it should highlight the line between a starting corner square and a target square
06:43	Borkdude	TEttinger: it should walk also in diagonals or smth?
06:43	Borkdude	TEttinger: so the shortest path?
06:43	TEttinger	i could use bresenham, but for some reason i thought making one turn would look better to the user (which is a goal in this)
06:44	TEttinger	and with orthogonal-only movement, it currently does highlight the shortest line, except when it walks over corners
06:44	Borkdude	TEttinger: good luck, the only thing I wanted to point out is that making a giant function into more smaller functions is easier to test =)
06:44	TEttinger	ah ok
06:45	TEttinger	i will look into how to implement bresenham's line algorithm in clojure, i think it isn't very complex
06:48	mduerksen	myarray: i think the preference of max-key is more intuitive the way its implemented now: left-to-right, just like e.g. merge. but intuition aside (which may vary), it should be explicitely written in the doc.
06:53	hyPiRion	Would jumping directly over Leiningen 1.x to Leiningen 2 be smart? I haven't used any, and I'm going to port a 1.2 project over to 1.4.
06:53	Borkdude	haha
06:54	Borkdude	technomancy: http://twitpic.com/9mc9aw ;-)
06:54	hyPiRion	Borkdude: yeah, I noticed as well. :p
07:00	hyPiRion	Well, I cannot see why it shouldn't be smart.
07:02	xumingmingv	a silly question
07:02	xumingmingv	we know that we use ; for comments in clojure
07:02	xumingmingv	why most clojure code use ;; ...
07:02	xumingmingv	double ;
07:03	ejackson	haha, I guess due to // from java
07:04	ejackson	and still having ; mean line end, so not wanting to put it at the front of a line :)
07:04	hyPiRion	Lisp convention. ; is for comments in code, ;; is for comments before/after code
07:04	ejackson	well that makes more sense !
07:05	xumingmingv	after code?
07:06	hyPiRion	As in, after the closing paren of an expression. E.g. after a defn.
07:29	TEttinger	gah, why is there no floor function? org.clojure/math.numeric-tower has some issue that prevents floor from working
07:31	TEttinger	http://pastebin.com/Ha8vkKsS my lengthy error
07:31	Borkdude	TEttinger: ##(int 3.567) ?
07:31	lazybot	⇒ 3
07:31	TEttinger	,(int 15/2)
07:31	clojurebot	7
07:31	TEttinger	oh ok
07:31	TEttinger	thanks
07:34	Borkdude	,(* (int 3.5) 2.3)
07:34	clojurebot	6.8999999999999995
07:37	babilen	TEttinger: ##(Math/floor 42.23)
07:37	lazybot	⇒ 42.0
08:16	Borkdude	sometimes I wonder about clojuredocs, if I search for "def", why doesn't "def" turn up.. http://clojuredocs.org/search?x=0&y=0&q=def
08:19	foxdonut	Borkdude: strange indeed.. it shows up in the autocomplete but not in the search results :/
08:20	Borkdude	foxdonut: I have had this with other searches as well
08:21	Borkdude	foxdonut: also the autocomplete representation is broken in Chrome on my system
08:22	foxdonut	Borkdude: works on Chrome/Ubuntu and Chrome/Mac.. what are you on?
08:23	Borkdude	foxdonut: Chrome / OSX
08:23	Borkdude	foxdonut: http://twitpic.com/9md5xd <-- I get this
08:24	Borkdude	foxdonut: try typing a "d", let the autocomplete come up and then press "e"
08:24	foxdonut	Borkdude: huh. that's whacked.
08:25	Borkdude	foxdonut: you don't get this?
08:25	foxdonut	Borkdude: I don't get any truncated autocomplete, but doing the d-then-e thing makes 'def' not show up.
08:26	Borkdude	foxdonut: with me the autocomplete results get positioned over the search box
08:51	solussd_	Could anyone tell me why this won't compile (I get a java.lang.InstantiationException when it tries to compile the macrolet form): https://www.refheap.com/paste/4fb64515e4b0225aed0333ec
09:01	hyPiRion	solussd_: I don't know why, but I would've tried to get rid of that macro: https://www.refheap.com/paste/4fb647aae4b0225aed0333ed
09:03	hyPiRion	I screwed up the indentation, but the idea is that if you're able to make a macro into a function by using apply, then do that istead.
09:04	neotyk	solussd_: where did you get macrolet from, I want one as well
09:06	TimMc	foxdonut: The autocomplete and search results most notably differ on things with hyphens.
09:06	solussd_	macrolet is in clojure.tools.macro
09:07	solussd_	hyPiRion: I cant use apply-- the args list is conditional on the args, and simply building the arg list and then applying the command is no better than the macro. I like macrolet. :)
09:08	solussd_	I'm concerned about what looks like perfectly valid code not compiling.. :/
09:14	foxdonut	TimMc: ic
09:15	mmarczyk	solussd_: actually the expansion seems to depend on the runtime values of dest-name and submodule-recursive -- so, not valid code at all
09:15	mmarczyk	solussd: ^
09:16	mmarczyk	solussd: CLHS says "the consequences are undefined if the local macro definitions reference any local variable or function bindings that are visible in that lexical environment" (i.e. the lexical environment where the macrolet form appears) http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm -- that applies to CL, but I'd expect the same from tools.macro
09:25	goodieboy	I'm having the problem described here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10289617/clojure-ring-jetty-i-am-using-lein-ring-server-how-do-i-configure-the-jetty
09:26	goodieboy	I have to keep using "lein ring server", so somehow I need to configure jetty within my project.clj -- I tried the example in that ^^ link, but nothing is working
09:27	goodieboy	anyone know how to deal with this -- summary: In development mode, jetty is giving me a "FULL HEAD" response
09:27	mmarczyk	goodieboy: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9285096/clojure-ring-using-the-ring-jetty-adapter-large-requests-give-me-a-413-full-h/9286288#9286288
09:28	goodieboy	mmarczyk: thanks! I'll give that a shot.
09:28	weavejester	goodieboy: If you specify the configurator as a symbol, that might work.
09:29	weavejester	goodieboy: e.g. {:ring {:adapter {:configurator some.config/foo}}}
09:29	goodieboy	weavejester: ahh, ok
09:29	mmarczyk	I'd still expect unquote to be necessary
09:30	mmarczyk	but if it isn't, I'll be interested to learn that :-)
09:30	weavejester	mmarczyk: I believe the adapter arguments are passed as-is to eval-in-project
09:31	weavejester	So in theory they should be evaluated.
09:32	mmarczyk	weavejester: ah, then it shouldn't matter, fns are self-evaluating currently
09:33	weavejester	mmarczyk: Yes… an anonymous function should work in theory...
09:33	michaelr525	weavejester: hi
09:34	michaelr525	weavejester: i don't want to bother you with this, but can you tell me whether you've seen my comment here: https://github.com/weavejester/lein-ring/issues/10
09:35	goodieboy	weavejester mmarczyk: hmm, i can't get it to work. Using :ring {:adapter {:configurator app/configure etc.. doesn't ever execute my function
09:35	weavejester	goodieboy: Which version are you using?
09:35	goodieboy	weavejester: of lein-ring?
09:35	weavejester	goodieboy: Yep
09:35	goodieboy	weavejester: 0.7.0
09:35	weavejester	michaelr525: I have, but haven't had time to look into it.
09:37	michaelr525	weavejester: ok, thanks.. i intent to tackle this problem myself sooner or later anyways, thought maybe you have an idea what could it be
09:37	weavejester	michaelr525: No idea, since I wasn't able to reproduce the original issue. Which version of Tomcat are you using, btw?
09:38	michaelr525	7.0.21
09:39	weavejester	goodieboy: Hm, not sure why that wouldn't be working, but I haven't tested using configurator with lein-ring before
09:40	goodieboy	weavejester: ok. Using ~(prn "configure!") does work, but I guess that doesn't really mean that lein-ring is doing anything with the :configurator value, just that the prn is getting evaluated immediately right?
09:41	goodieboy	like this: {:ring {:adapter {:configurable ~(prn "configure!")}}}
09:42	weavejester	goodieboy: This might need a patch for it to work
09:43	goodieboy	weavejester: if you could point me in the right direction, i could attempt doing this if you'd like
09:44	weavejester	goodieboy: I'm afraid the only direction I can point you in is the lein-ring source code
09:44	goodieboy	weavejester: gotcha ok, checking that out now
09:45	weavejester	goodieboy: Out of interest, why are your headers so big?
09:46	goodieboy	weavejester: we store a lot of data in cookies, i'm assuming that's it?
09:46	weavejester	goodieboy: That's probably it.
09:52	solussd	mmarczyk: thanks!
10:06	goodieboy	weavejester: is this function called somewhere when running "lein ring server" ?
10:06	goodieboy	https://github.com/weavejester/ring-server/blob/master/src/ring/server/standalone.clj#L56
10:07	goodieboy	it looks like lein-ring recognizes :adapter here: https://github.com/weavejester/lein-ring/blob/master/src/leiningen/ring/server.clj#L27
10:08	goodieboy	sorry wrong link, ring-jett-adapter: https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-jetty-adapter/src/ring/adapter/jetty.clj#L61
10:09	goodieboy	anyway, that config setting is getting lost somewhere along the way
10:10	jsabeaudry_	Is there any point to doing @(future (dostuff)) instead of (dostuff)?
10:14	rhc	jsabeaudry_: not that i can see, just extra overhead
10:15	jsabeaudry_	rhc, thanks for the confirmation, that was my impression too
10:19	gfredericks	(-> (dostuff) future deref future deref future deref future deref) ;; make sure
10:24	pjstadig	gfredericks: needs syntax shorthand like caadar
10:29	jsabeaudry_	hehhehe
10:34	gfredericks	googling caadar tells me nothing. This is some mashup of car and cdr?
10:34	gfredericks	(def caadar (comp first first rest first))?
10:34	jweiss	I think it's (car (car (cdr (car x))))
10:34	jweiss	or maybe i got that backwards
10:35	gfredericks	lisp complects forwards with backwards
10:36	pjstadig	common lisp lets you use any combination of a's and d's between the c and r
10:36	gfredericks	O_O
10:36	gfredericks	wtf.
10:36	pjstadig	and it just becomes the composition of all the cars and cdrs
10:36	jweiss	pjstadig: you mean, even caaadadaddaddadaddddddaaaar ?
10:36	gfredericks	so you can't name anything #"c[ad]+r" because it will be misinterpreted?
10:36	pjstadig	sure i think so, i'm not sure if there is some theoretical or practical limit
10:37	llasram	Is that really true? In /LoL/, one of the things the author does is define a macro w/in which one can use any #"c[ad]+r"
10:37	llasram	Wouldn't think he'd need to do that if support already existed, but I don't know my CL v well..
10:37	pjstadig	to the hyperspec!
10:38	pjstadig	http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm#car
10:38	pjstadig	looks like only up to four compositions of car and cdr
10:38	gfredericks	#"c[ad]{1,4}r"
10:38	jweiss	i have some data. most of the data is fixed, iow, always evaluates to the same thing. pieces of it are not - for instance it evaluates to a timestamped string. so far i've been enclosing this literal in (fn [] ...) so that i can call the fn and get a "new" piece of data each time. but that creates an awful lot of functions to compile. i'm wondering if i can implement this where the data is consumed, maybe with protocols.
10:38	llasram	That seems... er, sensible?
10:39	hyPiRion	pjstadig: There's a practical limit. Most of the common lisp implementations is limited at around 4 or 5.
10:39	hyPiRion	Though that being said, nothing limits implementators to have more.
10:39	gfredericks	reminds me of the generated IFn primitive interfaces or whatever that was
10:41	llasram	Oh yeah. Those make me slightly sad every time I think about them. But generating them dynamically seems pretty fraught with peril
10:43	llasram	jweiss: Like have an object which represents "the time at which you examine the object"?
10:43	misislavski	neotyk: with today's bleeding edge cljs, I'm seeing Unaught Error on robots discussed here about a month ago / CLJS-35. Do you know a workaround?
10:44	jweiss	llasram: yeah, but i don't see how i can do it. some of the data need to refer to the same timestamped string.
10:45	llasram	jweiss: Yeah, I was thinking that would make it kind of problematic... What's the down-side of having a function generate the data? Do you have a v large number of these functions being dynamically `eval`ed or such?
10:46	jweiss	llasram: as i add more data i'm adding more functions that need compiling, doesn't seem very scalable. functions seem a little heavyweight here
10:48	ibdknox	Hey folks
10:48	Borkdude	hi ibdknox
10:48	llasram	jweiss: So really your data are essentially templates? And you need something to generate the actual data from the templates? (thinking out loud)
10:48	ibdknox	I have an exciting announcement :) Light Table was accepted late to YC
10:49	llasram	ibdknox: Congratulations! And since I haven't been on #clojure since the Kickstarter project got funded, congratulations on that too!
10:49	jweiss	llasram: yeah, when you put it that way, sounds like we're talking about macros
10:49	ibdknox	can a couple people help me spread the word: http://news.ycombinator.com/newest
10:50	timvisher	hey all
10:50	ibdknox	It's important that people know circumstances have changed :)
10:50	ibdknox	llasram: thanks!
10:50	timvisher	how would you go about converting an io/input-stream into a byte[]?
10:50	llasram	jweiss: Wellll. Not necessarily. That might be an easy way to implement things at first, but still locks your data into executable code. I don't know -- it probably depends on the details of the data
10:50	raek	timvisher: use the read method of the InputStream class
10:51	TimMc	ByteArrayOutputStream + a pumper?
10:52	raek	(.read input-stream buffer)
10:52	timvisher	raek: recursively, i suppose?
10:52	timvisher	i'm trying to understand how I would terminate
10:52	timvisher	ah yes
10:52	timvisher	while
10:52	jweiss	llasram: have stuff like (fn [] {:a (unique-name "joe")}) which produces a different value each time. but then sometimes i need to refer to the same thing twice: (let [x {:a (unique-name "foo")}] (dothing x))
10:52	raek	timvisher: how much data do you need to read each time?
10:53	timvisher	few megabytes
10:53	timvisher	or less
10:53	jweiss	sorry llasram forgot to add (dootherthing x) :)
10:53	raek	do you need to fill the buffer completely, or do you just want to read what's available?
10:53	timvisher	only what's available
10:53	gfredericks	if he wants a byte[] doesn't he have to read everything first?
10:53	Borkdude	ibdknox: can I ask a dumb question, does this mean you don't need the kickstarter money anymore?
10:53	raek	timvisher: how are you using the byte-array?
10:53	timvisher	i'm trying to read a file from the web once, then turn it into both a bufferedimage as well as an md5 hash
10:54	gfredericks	ibdknox: I can take the kickstarter money if you don't need it
10:54	gfredericks	I don't mind
10:54	llasram	jweiss: What's the data ultimately being used for?
10:54	timvisher	i don't believe i can use just the stream anymore because one or the other would consume it
10:54	raek	timvisher: if you want to put all the bytes into an output-stream, use clojure.java.io/copy
10:54	timvisher	so my thought is to read it once an then use it both places
10:54	ibdknox	Borkdude: it's still very useful, but it is not needed. The project is safe. That's why I'm letting people know it's ok if for them that means they no longer feel the need to pledge
10:54	raek	ah
10:54	jweiss	llasram: functional tests. the reason i need unique values, is so I can run the same test twice, and the data being used doesn't collide with data that's already in the system under test.
10:55	timvisher	and i don't think it'll be possible for me to download the data twice, especially in quick succession
10:55	Borkdude	ibdknox: what happens if people take their pledge back and the sum gets below 200k?
10:55	timvisher	if that were possible then i could probably just stick with opening 2 streams
10:55	goodieboy	anyone know if it's possible to add repositories for "lein plugin install xxx" ?
10:55	raek	I would repeatedly fill the buffer (say 2048 bytes) using the read method and give the array (and size) to the two sinks that need it
10:56	ibdknox	Borkdude: then the project isn't funded and no money transfers
10:57	Borkdude	ibdknox: so what about Python support now, already safe as well?
10:57	raek	so something like (loop [] (let [n (.read input-stream buffer)] (when-not (neg? n) (... buffer ... n ...) (recur)))
10:57	ibdknox	Borkdude: That I'm not sure about
10:57	timvisher	seems reasonable
10:57	llasram	jweiss: Ah, so generated text fixtures? Functions actually seems a perfectly sensible way to go. Esp if you're ultimately just generating Clojure data-structures. You can compose them, refer to the same generated value multiple times... They seem pretty much perfect
10:57	Borkdude	ibdknox: and how about licensing? or will it be free?
10:58	llasram	jweiss: I guess I'm not seeing the scalability problem, unless you're creating 100ks of them?
10:59	ibdknox	Borkdude: if the KS fails a few of the details around that might change, I'm not sure. In the long run maybe it isn't worth charging for the distributions
10:59	cmiles74	Has anyone see a Clojure library for working with Hazelcast? I don't want to reinvent the wheel.
10:59	jsabeaudry_	When lein uberjar fails with a compilaiton error, it seems like I'm still in the process, is there a way to tell it to retry without C-c'ing it and restarting it?
10:59	Borkdude	ibdknox: anyway, congrats!
11:00	jweiss	llasram: i'm not sure it's a problem, just thought there might be another way. i'm ok with leaving it as is, just sometimes gets confusing as to exactly when something gets evaluated, because as i compose data, each level needs to be wrapped in a function. and then of course i need a construct to explicitly call it.
11:01	jweiss	llasram: seems like lisp's quote/unquote constructs kind of do the same thing
11:03	llasram	jweiss: Do you have an example of where it gets confusing? The version I have in my head of just normal functions returning and composing normal data-structures seems fairly straightforward to me
11:04	Borkdude	ibdknox: I don'tknow the details of ycombinator's process, but I read they invest 18k and you get to be three months over there.. isn't 200k better?
11:04	solussd	dependency question: I'm using a version of (lein-marginalia dev-dependency) marginalia in my project that itself depends on hiccup 0.3.7 (in this version escape-html is in hiccup.core), in my project I use hiccup 1.0.x. Running marginalia (lein marg) results in an exception complaining about not being able to find escape-html. it seems that marginalia is using hiccup 1.0, even though it has a dependency on hiccup 0.3.7. How do I get it to us
11:04	solussd	the older hiccup while continuing to use hiccup 1.0 in my project?
11:04	ibdknox	Borkdude: there's another guaranteed 150k as well. But the value of YC isn't the money, it's the guidance, the name, and the network.
11:04	jweiss	llasram: https://github.com/weissjeffm/katello.auto/blob/master/src/katello/tests/permissions.clj#L97
11:05	ibdknox	Borkdude: those things in combination are worth untold sums of money
11:05	Borkdude	ibdknox: I guess Arc support is now closer than Python ;-P
11:05	ibdknox	lol
11:06	ibdknox	Borkdude: certainly not :p
11:07	llasram	jweiss: Ahhhhh. Why the nested functions? Are those actually intended to be functions in the "final" data-structure, or are they evaluated before being used as fixtures?
11:09	jweiss	llasram: well, the outer fn's need to be functions because of data like starting line 97. and the inner ones often need to be functions too, because of line 122
11:09	jweiss	so the test harness needs to either take maps or functions. at both levels it has to take functions
11:10	jweiss	actually the inner fn's have to be fn's no matter waht
11:11	jweiss	but they can't be partials, they really have to be fn's
11:11	llasram	jweiss: The code ultimately under test consumes functions, or the existing test harness needs them to be functions?
11:12	timvisher	is it possible to clear the slime repl buffer?
11:12	jweiss	llasram: the harness is my code too, so it's not required in that sense.
11:13	jweiss	timvisher: M-x slime-repl-clear-buffer
11:13	llasram	timvisher: which is bound to C-c M-o by default
11:13	jweiss	llasram: i guess there's no getting around things needing to be evaluated at runtime.
11:14	llasram	Though of course thinking about bindings always makes me unable to correctly apply them...
11:14	misislavski	Is anybody else having problems with the Uncaught error with robots.txt from clojurescript master?
11:14	misislavski	I can't get my browser to connect to the repl.
11:14	timvisher	jweiss, llasram: very cool
11:14	misislavski	both chrome and ff throw: "Uncaught Error: URI file:/robots.txt is invalid for field ppu"
11:14	llasram	jweiss: Right. I think the part I'm questioning is the function nesting. It seems like the whole system would be really straightforward if you ultimately just have functions which produce fully evaluated datastructures
11:15	llasram	jweiss: You could compose those functions by having higher-level functions call lower-level ones, just like in normal code
11:15	foxdonut	who wants to be Light Table backer #5000 ?
11:17	jweiss	llasram: that's what it's doing. the inner fn's i have no choice - they really are functions no matter what, even if there's no
11:17	jweiss	u
11:17	jweiss	unique data in them
11:17	jweiss	the test is "assign this user these permissions, then as that user, run these functions"
11:18	jweiss	so the test is sort of a HOF
11:18	TimMc	foxdonut: 4,998 backers now.
11:19	foxdonut	TimMc: yeah saw that, didn't know you could back out of being a backer!
11:20	TimMc	That's what ibdknox was saying in his post, though: You can back out now, it's OK. There's guaranteed funding.
11:20	TimMc	I'm keeping mine in. It's still an investment.
11:21	llasram	jweiss: Oh, ok. Well. Seems good as-is to me then :-) Or at least, I can't contribute any ideas as to how it could be simpler
11:21	llasram	jweiss: It's an interesting problem though -- curious to find out if you settle on some other way of doing it
11:22	jweiss	llasram: certainly seems possible to me that there is no better way, but i'm not totally convinced of that yet :) i'll let you know if i find anything
11:22	jweiss	thanks for your time
11:23	foxdonut	TimMc: what does this YC thing imply? and why might one not be a backer anymore because of it?
11:23	gfredericks	&(->> [oh boy] quote cycle (take 10))
11:23	lazybot	⇒ (oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy)
11:23	pbostrom	KS backers still get early access I believe
11:23	gtrak`	ibdknox: congrats
11:24	ibdknox	gtrak`: thanks! :)
11:24	gtrak`	I'd like to do some cool startup one of these days, too :-), sounds exciting
11:25	ibdknox	foxdonut: the main thing is that before people threw in money to ensure that the project had a chance, now it does, so the circumstances under which that "investment" was made have changed.
11:25	ibdknox	foxdonut: ultimately getting YC is a very, very good thing for the project
11:25	TimMc	foxdonut: I know nothing about YC. :-P
11:25	pbostrom	ibdknox: just curious, did you approach YC, or did they come after you?
11:25	jweiss	i'm a little confused, KS and YC seem totally different. i thought KS was "if you really want this thing built, contribute so you can get it". and then for all the developer might care, everyone else can get it for free. YC doesn't seem like they would want anyone getting it for free.
11:25	llasram	ibdknox: OOC, was the successful Kickstarter effort a factor in getting YC?
11:26	foxdonut	ibdknox: thanks for the explanation. my contrib remains, for sure.
11:26	ibdknox	pbostrom: we applied, though the whole thing was very interesting. we'll probably blog about it at some point
11:26	ibdknox	llasram: definitely. Half the partners had actually contributed :)
11:27	ibdknox	jweiss: there's tons of potential for a business even if the platform is open source :)
11:28	rkz	ibdknox: was the interview intense or were they sold before you even walked in? did they ask you how you were going to make money?
11:28	`fogus	ibdknox: We?
11:28	ibdknox	rkz: it was rough as hell
11:28	ibdknox	`fogus: best friend from high school (ibdthor) :)
11:29	`fogus	ibdknox: Congratulations to both of you. Huge news!
11:29	ibdknox	rkz: they really laid into us, I found out later that was because they really liked us, but boy it didn't seem like it when we walked out of that room
11:30	rkz	ibdknox: i had an interview too, one of the most intense things I've ever done in my life
11:30	rkz	this was when all the partners were in the same room
11:31	rkz	so it was like 11 people
11:31	rkz	grilling 3 of us
11:31	rkz	questions from all directions
11:31	TimMc	How does YC work? They invest money and get partial ownership?
11:32	TimMc	Is it a loan?
11:32	rkz	no, cash
11:32	mmarczyk	ibdknox: wow, congrats!!! :-)
11:32	rkz	for 5-7 %
11:32	ejackson	am i reading this correctly - KS got YC !
11:33	TimMc	yes
11:33	TimMc	All of the acronyms!
11:33	ejackson	BRILLIANT !
11:33	ejackson	s/KS/LT/
11:33	ejackson	of course :)
11:34	TimMc	That too.
11:34	foxdonut	VFC!
11:34	ibdknox	mmarczyk: thanks :)
11:34	TimMc	LT's KS probably helped them get VC from YC.
11:34	ejackson	OK
11:34	TimMc	:-D
11:34	foxdonut	IIRC RTFM OMG WTF BBQ
11:34	RickInGA	ibdknox: congrats!
11:35	ejackson	i hope this doesn't mean Clojure loses one if its most prolific project contributors
11:35	ejackson	but am thrilled nevertheless
11:35	TimMc	foxdonut: No, only DAs. (Dyadic Acronyms)
11:36	TimMc	ejackson: Eh, we'll get spinoffs.
11:37	foxdonut	TimMc: so no TLA then, huh
11:37	TimMc	right
11:38	Borkdude	ibdknox: maybe you should explain now what happens to the "reward structure"
11:38	foxdonut	TimMc: RO. TF. LM. AO.
11:39	RickInGA	foxdonut: LOL
11:39	ibdknox	Borkdude: yeah, I'll be posting a second update about that
11:39	ache	ibdknox: will LT be able to support LP some time in the future, perhaps with a plug-in? (literate programming)
11:40	ibdknox	ache: there's some neat stuff you could do with an LP plugin
11:40	ibdknox	ache: not sure I'll be the one to build it, since I'm already stretched pretty thin
11:40	ibdknox	but I imagine someone will :)
11:40	ache	as long as the door's open :)
11:41	ache	it would be a dream within a dream. congrats!
11:46	cldwalker	hi all, does leiningen support an rc file i.e. leiningenrc? I'm calling (load-file my-file) each time I start lein repl
11:47	TimMc	cldwalker: There's some sort of init.clj or user.clj in ~/.lein
11:47	TimMc	One is for running code in Lein itself, the other is run for your repl session.
11:48	cldwalker	TimMc: Thanks!
11:49	bhenry	has anyone had the following problem? with :main in project.clj lein repl gives "REPL server launch timed out" but with no :main in project.clj it works fine. this is lein2
11:50	foxdonut	RickInGA: :)
11:50	bhenry	even stranger is that i can run the (-main) function defined in the :main namespace from the repl that works.
11:56	gfredericks	bhenry: it might be trying to load the repl in your main ns. Does than ns do anything interesting at load-time?
11:57	gfredericks	(e.g., read a config file that is missing)
11:57	TimMc	bhenry: Try increasing Lein's REPL-start timeout. I forget how...
11:58	bhenry	it reads a config file, but it's not missing. and i can run (-main) from that namespace just fine once i load the repl after deleting the :main line from project.clj
12:01	zakwilson	ibdknox: congratulations on YC. Just don't forget about Korma and stuff!
12:02	TimMc	and us!
12:03	TimMc	bhenry: I used to have that problem. It's basically just slow JVM startup.
12:03	hyPiRion	ibdknox: Seems like I'm late to the party, but congratulations from me too. :)
12:04	ibdknox	thanks guys :)
12:04	y3di	holeeee shittt
12:04	y3di	gratz
12:05	ejackson	well done Chris, awesome
12:05	ibdknox	zakwilson: Korma is really orthogonal to what I'll need to be doing in the near future, so I'm going to be looking for someone to help keep it moving forward
12:05	ibdknox	Yeah, exciting times ahead
12:05	zakwilson	I'd volunteer, but I'm bad at SQL.
12:05	ibdknox	zakwilson: me too, don't tell anyone ;)
12:05	zakwilson	Heh.
12:06	eggsby	I showed a db friend who is learning clojure korma and he got excited
12:07	eggsby	composable sql... mm
12:07	zakwilson	As he should. SQL is a really terrible language.
12:07	eggsby	meh, it's not bad or hard or anything, just limited
12:07	fliebel	ibdknox: Congrats. It seems some people wonder about Python. Are you still lurking in the HN thread?
12:07	pipeline	korma is the reason i wanted to learn clojure, no joke
12:07	zakwilson	Yes, that's why it's terrible.
12:08	pipeline	i heard about clojure a couple years ago and it sounded neat but there was no particular reason i wanted to learn it
12:08	eggsby	woah YC changed their mind about light table?
12:08	eggsby	sup pipeline cobol4life
12:08	zakwilson	I can't remember why I wanted to learn Clojure now. I was using Common Lisp at the time.
12:08	eggsby	ibdknox: I thought you initially got rejected from yc?
12:08	ibdknox	eggsby: we were haha
12:09	eggsby	heh
12:09	ibdknox	eggsby: for a different idea though
12:09	zakwilson	A dev tool written in a lisp that's at the top of HN every time it's mentioned is kind of a natural fit for YC.
12:09	eggsby	pg looked at the kickstarter results... 'welp'
12:09	ibdknox	I got recognized at a restaurant the other day
12:09	ibdknox	this whole thing is a bit surreal
12:09	eggsby	nice
12:10	eggsby	you are dev famous now
12:10	ibdknox	haha
12:10	zakwilson	I'm assuming this is in the bay area?
12:10	eggsby	you work at msft right ibdknox ?
12:10	ibdknox	used to
12:10	ibdknox	zakwilson: yeah
12:10	eggsby	ah
12:11	llasram	zakwilson: That's funny -- I too forgot for a while what had motivated me to learn Clojure in the first place. I'm now pretty sure it was Yegge's forward to /JoC/, although I couldn't tell you why exactly
12:11	eggsby	Did they let you use clojure there...
12:12	llasram	s,forward,foreword,
12:28	gfredericks	if ibdknox is famous, then I am famous because I am in the same IRC channel he is. So I will henceforth expect recognition.
12:30	zakwilson	I don't want to be famous. Just rich.
12:31	TimMc	zakwilson: Best is to be rich but not famous. Then people don't ask you for money.
12:31	zakwilson	Yeah, but I'd buy a Ferrari and ruin it.
12:32	gfredericks	I didn't ask for fame, but here I am having to deal with it anyways.
12:32	jodaro	i can't complain, but sometimes i still do
12:33	zakwilson	I said Ferrari, not Maserati!
12:33	gfredericks	thanks ibdknox for ruining all our lives. damn paparazzi won't leave me alone.
12:33	ibdknox	's my job. Making the world a little bit more awful one blind step at a time :D
12:34	gfredericks	it's nobody's business which movie star I'm marrying this month
12:36	wink	gfredericks: that's the quick route to "not having money"
12:37	zakwilson	So I came up with this idea for a Clojure-inspired replacement for C. Should I quit drinking?
12:37	gfredericks	what would it take to make the CLJS compiler emit C? just a GC impl?
12:38	zakwilson	No idea, but that's far from what I have in mind.
12:38	jodaro	either quit drinking, or drink more
12:39	zakwilson	Actually, I think that would be hard. CLJS uses Google's java->js thing, IIRC.
12:39	gfredericks	zakwilson: if someone needs the performance of C can they afford all the dynamicity and immutability?
12:39	yoklov	zakwilson: no, it doesn't
12:39	llasram	zakwilson: Basic idea has been done, if I understand. I'm trying to find it...
12:39	zakwilson	jodaro: http://xkcd.com/323/
12:39	yoklov	zakwilson: it uses googles js->js optimizer
12:40	progo	gambit-clojure is in the works
12:40	llasram	zakwilson: Here we go: http://voodoo-slide.blogspot.com/2010/01/amplifying-c.html && https://github.com/deplinenoise/c-amplify
12:41	jodaro	hah
12:42	zakwilson	llasram: yeah, I remember something called SC that was, I think similar to that.
12:43	jodaro	hah
12:43	jodaro	todays xkcd is good
12:43	zakwilson	Anyway, what I have in mind is slightly more ambitious than just compiling to C or doing C with Lisp syntax, but less ambitious than trying to do systems programming with Clojure semantics.
12:43	llasram	What's the middle ground?
12:44	krawitz	hi, does anyone knows a convenient way to parse multipart responses in clj-http, except using commons-fileupload? i found only functions to make multipart requests, but not to parse responses. :-(
12:44	TimMc	zakwilson: Taken a look at Rust, by the way?
12:46	zakwilson	Clojure-like syntax, avoidance of complecting whenever possible, LLVM backend, static typing (but the option of an unchecked cast if you really need it), pointers, ad-hoc hierarchies... just some brainstorming at the moment.
12:46	ibdknox	we should just do LLVM clojure :)
12:49	llasram	+1
12:49	zakwilson	I like that idea, but so much Clojure depends on Java libraries.
12:54	llasram	zakwilson: Well, ClojureScript and clojure-py are having a go of it
12:55	llasram	Maybe start by creating a native-feeling C FFI layer which works in JVM Clojure by dynamically mapping to JNA, but could directly generate native code for an LLVM version
13:03	TimMc	And since we've seen LLVM compile to JS...
13:03	TimMc	We could run Clojure in the browser! :-D
13:05	pjstadig	llasram & zakwilson: there's also this http://nakkaya.com/2011/06/29/ferret-an-experimental-clojure-compiler/
13:11	TimMc	"Since there is no support for vectors, they are converted to lists."
13:12	TimMc	Ummm... there goes most Clojure code right there.
13:12	zakwilson	Wouldn't any of many dynamic array implementations do for that?
13:13	gfredericks	TimMc: most?
13:14	TimMc	zakwilson: Not if they use mutation...
13:14	gfredericks	does it mean vectors in code or vectors the data structures?
13:15	TimMc	Presumably the data structure.
13:15	zakwilson	Well, there is that. I think compiling Clojure to C or C++ sounds like a terrible idea, personally.
13:40	dnolen`	ibdknox: congrats on YC12!
13:40	ibdknox	dnolen`: thanks!
13:50	dnolen`	ibdknox: your talk for Strange Loop looks cool :)
13:50	ibdknox	did he post it?
13:51	ibdknox	ah he did
13:51	ibdknox	:)
13:52	gfredericks	there are a lot of SL talks O_O
13:53	technomancy	they should just make it a full week conference
13:53	dnolen`	gfredericks: yeah they run like 3 tracks or something.
13:53	hiredman	sl is totally sweet
13:53	technomancy	I think it was more like six tracks last year
13:53	gfredericks	ibdknox: the "Kodowa" link under your name goes nowheres
13:53	gfredericks	yes it was like six
13:54	gfredericks	my favorite six talks were all at the same time
13:54	ibdknox	hm
13:54	dnolen`	technomancy: heh, misremembered.
13:54	Licenser	ibdknox congrats to the LightTable startup :)
13:54	technomancy	it's wild
13:54	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
13:55	technomancy	that too
13:55	ibdknox	gfredericks: there's nothing there yet anyways: http://kodowa.com/
13:57	zakwilson	ibdknox: your stuff is always so pretty.
13:57	ibdknox	I have on idea what that site looks like on a non-mac
13:57	ibdknox	probably pretty shitty
13:57	ibdknox	lol
13:58	gfredericks	pritty shetty
13:59	ibdknox	man the reddit community is so depressing
13:59	solussd	ibdknox: congrats, btw. :D Can't wait to play with light table
13:59	ibdknox	well, sounds like you'll get to play with some of it in not too long :)
14:03	zakwilson	Yes, reddit can be depressing. I've been there for nearly seven years and moderate a largish subreddit. Did I mention I drink?
14:03	technomancy	21st-century slashdot
14:03	solussd	currently using emacs/swank- i don't know if I can untrain myself of paredit mode. wonder if codemirror supports something similar. :)
14:04	zakwilson	reddit actually did replace slashdot for me, so... yes.
14:04	technomancy	slashdot was never that slow though
14:04	TimMc	Ugh, being a moderator kind of sucks.
14:04	technomancy	well, maybe it was and I just didn't notice because everything was slow back then
14:05	zakwilson	I wonder if I pointed a text classifier at the reddit API if I could stop moderating by hand...
14:05	gfredericks	TimMc: I bet it's more fun to be an extremerator
14:07	neotyk	dnolen`: attached reduced patch to cljs-204
14:09	dnolen`	neotyk: it looks good. Will apply later today.
14:13	TimMc	gfredericks: There are subreddits like that.
14:14	TimMc	zakwilson: One of these days I will write a ROBOT9000 bot that has reddit mod credentials.
14:15	weavejester	Does anyone know of a good way to block until a trigger in Clojure?
14:15	technomancy	weavejester: promise is good for that
14:15	hiredman	a queue?
14:15	weavejester	technomancy: Yeah, but a promise only works once
14:16	technomancy	sure
14:16	LauJensen	Evening gents
14:16	technomancy	a seq of promises =)
14:16	weavejester	I was thinking a lazy seq or a promise in an atom that keeps changing
14:16	zakwilson	TimMc: that could be hillarious. I've done quite a bit with text classification lately. Even used it to write a chat bot.
14:16	technomancy	a queue would be better I think
14:16	weavejester	A queue isn't really what I want because each trigger resets the event.
14:17	hiredman	resets the event?
14:17	weavejester	I basically want to block until a file has been changed, or until a timeout.
14:17	hiredman	sounds like a queue to me
14:17	weavejester	So I don't care how many files have been changed
14:18	hiredman	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/LinkedBlockingQueue.html
14:18	weavejester	But if I get 10 file changes all at once I don't want to keep triggering the refresh.
14:19	weavejester	Maybe I just want a lock
14:19	hiredman	you have a source of events > queue > a consumer of the events, which component has the responsibility to throttle?
14:19	zakwilson	pg says "When we realized that multiple YC partners had already independently contributed to the Kickstarter project because they wanted to use Light Table themselves, it was not a hard decision."
14:20	zakwilson	I'd contribute too if I wasn't poor.
14:20	weavejester	I was thinking of having a thread that watches a filesystem, and then to raise events when something changes.
14:21	weavejester	And then I'd have a route that blocks until a file is changed, or until a timeout.
14:21	nDuff	Hrm.
14:21	mebaran151	weavejester: have you seen the WatchService in JRE7?
14:21	nDuff	Looks like shutting down swank-clojure and starting a new thread later is still reusing some state (particularly, a classloader)
14:22	hiredman	weavejester: it really sounds like a queue to me, you just have a particular consumer that has sme throttling requirements
14:22	weavejester	mebaran151: I don't really want to rely on Java 1.7...
14:22	y3di	dnolen`: where did you see chris's SL talk? I can't seem to find it
14:22	hiredman	so the consumer can look at the time from the "file modified" event from the queue and decide "well the last one was less than M minutes ago, so I will do nothing"
14:22	mebaran151	weavejester: a quick google found an Apache port that is supposed to be pure java
14:23	mebaran151	Apache VFS
14:24	weavejester	mebaran151: I'll look into that
14:25	mebaran151	it doesn't give you resolution as precise as the WatchService, but its DefaultFileMonitor polls once a second, and I think you can register multiple files too
14:26	weavejester	mebaran151: I think it would be easier for me to use ibdknox's watchtower
14:26	weavejester	I'm just not certain what's the best way to block...
14:27	mebaran151	weavejester: watchtower looks neat
14:27	mebaran151	couldn't you just do a promise and deliver it from the on-change handler?
14:28	weavejester	mebaran151: Yep, and that would work once… but when a promise has been delivered, the value doesn't change.
14:29	weavejester	I guess...
14:29	weavejester	What I want to say is "has the filesystem changed since time X"
14:29	weavejester	That could be the promise.
14:31	neotyk	dnolen`: thanks
14:31	mebaran151	throw the promise in an atom and reset it everytime?
14:32	weavejester	mebaran151: Yeah, but that somehow seems a little… wrong, maybe
14:33	weavejester	From a functional point of view, I'm asking when the filesystem last changed.
14:34	weavejester	I think I need to mull this over a bit. I've a feeling I should tie this to a time somehow.
14:34	clojurebot	multimethods are http://clojure.org/multimethods
14:34	gtrak	mul?
14:35	gtrak	whatcha talking about, clojurebot?
14:35	Chousuke	"mull this" -> multi? :P
14:35	gtrak	lol
14:35	gtrak	I think I need to mull this
14:35	raek	I think clojurebot has a built-in probability of randomly interpreting an irc message as directed to itself
14:35	Chousuke	yeah
14:35	pjstadig	~mull
14:35	clojurebot	Pardon?
14:35	pjstadig	and i don't think the content of the message matters
14:35	hiredman	weavejester: seriously, an event queue, and the consumers can keep some kind of state if they wish
14:36	weavejester	Each time we think we understand Clojurebot, it because something even more inscrutable
14:38	weavejester	hiredman: Hmm...
14:38	hiredman	the way it got from what weavejester said to the bit about multimethods is 3-4 (faulty) inferences
14:39	hiredman	"..time.." -> something chouser said about time -> something chouser said about multimethods -> multimethods
14:41	gfredericks	~time
14:41	clojurebot	multimethods seperate the 20% from the 80%
14:41	gfredericks	so the fact that "time" is a substring of "multimethods" is an unrelated coincidence?
14:41	hiredman	I think so
14:42	hiredman	but I dunno, the inference seems be acting more generally than intended
14:42	weavejester	hiredman: It doesn't really feel like a queue. I mean, if I don't care about how many events there are when I poll.
14:43	hiredman	I don't follow how caring about "how many" has anything to do with a queue
14:43	weavejester	hiredman: I guess I could have a queue of size 1 :)
14:44	weavejester	hiredman: Well, if there are zero events, I want to block until an event. If there are many events, I return immediately.
14:45	mwillhite	hey all - pretty new to clojure here…I'm trying to get some ring middleware going so that I can process params in the form of json in my compojure app
14:45	mwillhite	in my project.clj I have the following: [ring-middleware-format "0.1.1"]
14:45	hiredman	weavejester: seems reasonable
14:45	mwillhite	ran lein deps and it pulled down the repo
14:45	mwillhite	in my core.clj in the use call I have this: [ring.middleware.format-params :only [wrap-json-params]
14:46	mwillhite	as specified in the readme
14:46	mwillhite	but when I go to boot up the app I get the following error:
14:46	mwillhite	Caused by: java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: clojure.core/ring.middleware.format-params
14:46	mwillhite	am I missing something super obvious here?
14:46	hiredman	weavejester: you have some kind of file watcher thread that generates filesystem events, that thread has a list of weak or soft references to queues, you have listeners on each side of the queues
14:46	hiredman	the listeners don't have to consumer their entire queue
14:47	weavejester	mwillhite: Are you using (ns … (:use )) or just (use …)?
14:47	mwillhite	the former
14:47	weavejester	mwillhite: I'd need to see your whole ns declaration, I think...
14:48	mwillhite	sure lemme pastie it
14:48	raek	"clojure.core/ring.middleware.format-params" sounds suspicious
14:48	weavejester	hiredman: I'm still not sure why I'd want a queue when I don't care about the events themselves, just if there are any.
14:49	weavejester	hiredman: It feels more like a concurrency primitive than a queue.
14:50	TimMc	There's gotta be a way to use core.logic here.
14:50	mwillhite	oh jeez, I'm an idiot…I had tacked it on after the closing paren :P
14:50	mwillhite	thanks! haha
14:50	hiredman	weavejester: the queue approach is more general and provides a better separation between the event generator and the consumer
14:50	hiredman	weavejester: if you ever think some day you might care about the events
14:51	hiredman	if you are set on using something else, maybe a cyclicbarrier?
14:52	mebaran151	a promise that unpromises itself after reference would have some utility
14:52	hiredman	:(
14:52	hiredman	that's not a promise
14:52	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
14:53	hiredman	the power of a promise is the one shot nature
14:53	weavejester	hiredman: But it kinda feels like the wrong solution. I mean, I'd need to either poll and then clean the queue each time, ignore events, or set the queue size to 1 or something.
14:53	weavejester	hiredman: And a queue of size 1 doesn't seem like a queue anymore.
14:54	hiredman	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.5.0/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/CyclicBarrier.html
14:56	weavejester	hiredman: That doesn't seem quite right either… It feels one step too complex - it still cares about the number.
14:58	eggsby	so... I'm trying to dip my feet into macro lake, I have something passed to a macro, I want it passed in as a value to another function, but not evaluated... do I want to use ~ ?
14:59	eggsby	~@ will evaluate it, right?
14:59	clojurebot	@ is like the macro version of apply
15:00	Caffeine	How to keep the REPL open? I would like to start the REPL with a script (passing it a clj file in param) and keep it opened after. Can I do that???
15:00	lazybot	Caffeine: Yes, 100% for sure.
15:00	AimHere	eggsby, you probably want ` to keep code from evaulating inside a macro
15:00	AimHere	Then you use ~ or @ for the bits you DO want to evaluate
15:00	eggsby	AimHere: this is inside the body of a `() statement
15:01	eggsby	oh, ok
15:01	raek	eggsby: do you know enough about macros to write one without syntax-quote?
15:01	TimMc	It's not about evaluating, it's about syntax transformation!
15:01	eggsby	raek: mm, this is my first time writing a macro, and a lot of it is code borrowed from an article :3
15:02	eggsby	so say I have a list inside a `() form... would I go `(my-func ~@(first my-list) ~@(rest my-list)) if I wanted it to expand to (my-func first (rest-my-list)) ?
15:02	raek	I think it best to start with thinking of macros as functions from that is applied to the source code data structures
15:03	stuartsierra	Caffeine: Pass the -r option to clojure.main
15:03	raek	eggsby: do you have a simple example of a call to your macro and what it should expand to?
15:03	eggsby	I don't really want the (rest-my-list) to be evaluated, I just want it passed in as a list minus the head
15:03	hiredman	weavejester: if you have a design with an X shaped hole, and it turns out no one has ever created an X, what does it say about the design?
15:03	stuartsierra	Check the command-line syntax by running clojure with -h
15:03	eggsby	let me make one raek
15:04	raek	eggsby: the macro code is executed at compile time. it does not know about the runtime values.
15:05	Caffeine	stuartsierra: It works! Thanks!
15:06	stuartsierra	'welcome
15:06	raek	eggsby: one important thing that you need to know is that syntax quote is not tied to macros in any way. it's just a template language for lists, vectors and other data structures
15:07	TimMc	,(let [x [1 2 3]] `[a b ~@x c d])
15:07	clojurebot	[sandbox/a sandbox/b 1 2 3 ...]
15:07	amalloy	i'm hopping in late here, but weavejester's problem sounds like a queue to me too
15:08	eggsby	raek: https://www.refheap.com/paste/2790
15:08	eggsby	that's an inner function used by a macro
15:08	weavejester	It would have to be a queue of capacity 1
15:09	eggsby	oops, every occurance of myargs should be 'real-args'
15:09	weavejester	Which seems like not a queue
15:09	eggsby	derp... so many syntax errors there
15:10	eggsby	raek: https://www.refheap.com/paste/2791 is what I meant
15:10	raek	eggsby: ok, so the macro should look at action and generate either a call to do-something or do-something else?
15:10	eggsby	yes raek
15:10	raek	ah
15:11	raek	basically (my-macro :otheraction <a> <b> <c>) ==> (do-something-else <a> (list <b> <c>))?
15:12	eggsby	ya, but looking back maybe I should just rewrite how 'do-something-else' works...
15:12	eggsby	and just use ~@ to flatten the remainder of the args, then have do-something-else use & to splat
15:13	eggsby	cause just going '(some-call ~@(real-args)) results in (some-call my real args) expanded, right?
15:13	raek	do you want do-something-else to take <b> and <c> as separate args?
15:13	eggsby	ya basically
15:13	Raynes	Refheap is getting lots of paste love lately.
15:13	raek	ok, let's wait with the implementation details a bit
15:14	eggsby	but I think I should just manage that in the implementation of do-something and do-something-else, right raek ?
15:14	eggsby	ok
15:14	raek	I just want to understand what the macro should to first :-)
15:14	gtrak	Raynes: mmm paste love
15:14	eggsby	raek: basically I have some expression that I want to pass to a function to conditionally evaluate
15:15	raek	eggsby: a macro can rewrite an expression into another one. is (my-macro :otheraction <a> <b> <c>) ==> (do-something-else <a> <b> <c>) fine?
15:15	raek	so this will "compile away" the conditional that checks for :otheraction
15:15	eggsby	right
15:16	muhoo	i love it. an exception in projectname.views.something/eval24214
15:16	raek	the defmacro form could look like this then: (defmacro my-macro [action & args] ...)
15:17	raek	action will be a keyword and args will be a sequence of code expressions
15:17	amalloy	eggsby: you know this macro can only recognize :some-action if you pass it as a compile-time literal, right? you can't do (let [action (if foo :some-action :other-action)] (my-macro action a b c))
15:18	raek	if the call looks like (my-macro :someaction (+ 1 2)), action will be bound to :someaction and args to '((+ 1 2)), and not '(3)
15:19	raek	(defmacro my-macro [action & args] (case action :someaction ... :otheraction ...))
15:19	weavejester	A promise in an atom might be the best solution
15:19	raek	the ...s should return data that looks like (do-something <arguments-here...>) or (do-something-else <arguments-here...>)
15:20	hiredman	weavejester: :(
15:20	raek	so let's build some lists and symbols
15:20	weavejester	hiredman: I don't think there's a way to use a LinkedBlockingQueue to do what I want
15:20	eggsby	hm
15:20	hiredman	weavejester: why don you just create a singe element array and lock it
15:20	weavejester	hiredman: If I poll, I can get the head of the queue
15:21	weavejester	hiredman: How would that be different from an atom with a single value?
15:21	mebaran1`	weavejester: you have two elements of state anyway, so it seems like you would need two concurrency primitives
15:21	raek	(defmacro my-macro [action & args] (case :someaction (cons 'do-something args) :otheraction (cons 'do-something-else args)))
15:21	mebaran1`	whether the atom has been read and whether the filesystem has changed
15:22	eggsby	cons... hm
15:22	hiredman	weavejester: I don't know, a promise in an atom is just so disgusting
15:22	weavejester	hiredman: I know… :(
15:22	raek	now, instead of building lists like (cons 'foo (cons x (list 'bar 'baz))), we can use `(foo ~x bar baz)
15:22	raek	&'`(foo ~x bar baz)
15:22	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.core
15:23	TimMc	Yeah, lazybot is down for the count.
15:23	raek	that is actually expanded to this by the reader: (seq (concat (list 'foo) (list x) (list 'bar) (list 'baz)))
15:24	amalloy	huh
15:24	eggsby	what in the
15:24	eggsby	hm
15:25	weavejester	hiredman: Well, I don't know. A promise is for a value we don't yet know, like… when's the next file going to be changed?
15:25	raek	if we instead write `(foo ~@x bar baz) then we would get this: (seq (concat (list 'foo) x (list 'bar) (list 'baz)))
15:25	weavejester	hiredman: So ideally you'd want to tie it to a time...
15:26	eggsby	hmm
15:26	S11001001	,'`(foo ~@x bar baz)
15:26	clojurebot	(clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote sandbox/foo)) x (clojure.core/list (quote sandbox/bar)) (clojure.core/list (quote sandbox/baz))))
15:27	weavejester	hiredman: And an atom ties a value to an identity at a certain time.
15:27	hiredman	I think I may jsut stick my fingers in my ears and say "queue queue queue queue ..."
15:27	weavejester	hiredman: But the queue would only have one element! That's not really a queue, right?
15:27	hiredman	weavejester: why would it only have one element?
15:27	amalloy	i put a delay in an atom recently. not as weird as a promise, but still feels a little weird
15:28	raek	eggsby: the macro can the be written like: (defmacro my-macro [action & args] (case :someaction `(do-something ~@args) :otheraction `(do-something-else ~@args)))
15:28	hiredman	weavejester: your current consumer may only care about 1 element
15:28	eggsby	raek: what if x was a primitive and couldn't be "flattened" like that
15:28	weavejester	hiredman: Because I want to trigger a refresh when any amount of files change
15:29	TimMc	,(let [x 5] `[a b ~@x c d])
15:29	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
15:29	eggsby	so if x were (2 3) `(1 ~x 4) would be (1 (2 3) 4) and `(1 ~@x 4) would be (1 2 3 4), right?
15:29	pjstadig	don't do that
15:29	TimMc	eggsby: Just what you'd expect.
15:29	raek	eggsby: like 123? then the code would expand to (seq (concat (list 'foo) 123 (list 'bar) (list 'baz))) and you would get an error when that is evaluated
15:29	weavejester	hiredman: But there's no atomic operation to block and consume all of a blockingqueue
15:29	eggsby	ah, okay raek
15:29	eggsby	that helps a lot, thanks
15:29	raek	the macro constructs new code that is sent back to the compiler
15:29	weavejester	hiredman: I can poll it to get the head
15:29	eggsby	so what is the difference between ' and ` ?
15:30	ieure	Is there a Clojure/Java equivalent to Python's cmd library? http://docs.python.org/library/cmd.html
15:30	ieure	It's a REPL building framework.
15:30	raek	eggsby: with ' you can't have "holes" like ~ and ~@
15:30	raek	also, ` makes symbols namespace safe
15:30	eggsby	ah, I see
15:30	weavejester	hiredman: But I don't see how I can use a blockingqueue to do this
15:30	TimMc	raek: Don't forget gensyms.
15:31	hiredman	weavejester: https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/FSEvents_ProgGuide/KernelQueues/KernelQueues.html http://linux.die.net/man/7/inotify http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?EventQueue
15:32	hiredman	you pull a message from the queue, check it meets some set of conditions, and if it does you trigger some action, then go back to polling
15:33	TimMc	and throw timeouts into the queue as well?
15:33	hiredman	TimMc: most queues let you poll with a timeout
15:33	hiredman	lbq definitely does, and so does every messagebus I know of
15:34	weavejester	hiredman: That's a point...
15:35	hiredman	weavejester: you can even push the state management even farther down, by making it all internal to the refresh function, so refreshing is always throttled no matter how you call it
15:35	hiredman	throttled to 60hz or something :)
15:37	hiredman	refresh can be a scheduled function that checks a "re-render" flag
15:37	hiredman	so refresh runs every S seconds and just looks at an atom to see what needs to be redrawn
15:38	weavejester	Hm...
15:39	weavejester	Because the "refresh" is a response returned, I can't do that exactly
15:44	weavejester	Hm, also, a queue wouldn't work because there could be multiple consumers.
15:47	TimMc	weavejester: To recap, you need to take an action iff at least one event has occurred since the last time you took action, but only once x milliseconds have passed since the first such event?
15:48	hiredman	weavejester: that does not preclude a queue
15:48	TimMc	(with the delay intended to allow grouping)
15:48	hiredman	you each consumer gets a queue
15:49	weavejester	TimMc: I basically have a route in my web app that tells a javascript function whether or not to refresh the current page.
15:49	weavejester	So the javascript sends an XHR to the route
15:50	weavejester	If no files are changed it waits up until a timeout before returning false
15:50	weavejester	If any files are changed it returns true
15:51	TimMc	I think you can separate the blocking -- "taking action" could mean signaling all waiters on an object.
15:52	weavejester	Right...
15:53	hiredman	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/Object.html#wait%28long%29
15:53	weavejester	But because each consumer is temporary, I can't assign them a queue.
15:53	TimMc	weavejester: False positives are bad?
15:53	hiredman	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/Object.html#notifyAll%28%29
15:53	weavejester	hiredman: Yeah, I was thinking about that...
15:54	weavejester	hiredman: But is keeping an lock object any better than a promise?
15:54	weavejester	TimMc: Well, I don't want to change 10 files, and then have it refresh 10 times
15:54	hiredman	weavejester: yes
15:55	TimMc	weavejester: So each waiter needs to have its own notion of a timeout, but they all rely on the same event stream.
15:55	weavejester	TimMc: Yes...
15:56	hiredman	"spurious wakeup" ugh
15:57	weavejester	This is making me feel dumb. It feels like such an easy problem :)
15:58	TimMc	I'm having trouble with the idea of uses queues here. Queue read timeouts are a different kind of timeout than what you need.
15:58	hiredman	you need broadcast queues, which java.lang.concurrent doesn't have, but you can build them
15:59	weavejester	I think I need a broadcast something, but I don't see why it should be a queue, when I don't care about the items being queued.
16:00	hiredman	right, which is why you want a broadcast queue that goes away when no one is listening
16:00	weavejester	A promise seems like the right way of delivering a single value to multiple threads when it's ready.
16:00	weavejester	I mean, that's what it's for, right?
16:01	hiredman	for a one shot value
16:01	weavejester	Yes, but you could have a function returning a promise
16:03	weavejester	Like… (next-modification-date dirs)
16:03	weavejester	Which would return a promise of the next modified date in the directories
16:03	weavejester	I guess it would be more like (next-modified dirs timestamp)
16:05	weavejester	I guess I'll think about it.
16:08	TimMc	weavejester: When a waiter comes in, it creates an atom and registers a closure over it with the notification service, then sleeps for 100 ms. Each time a file event happens, all the closures are called with the event info. In this case, each closure sets its atom's state to true. When the timeout is over, the waiter returns the atom's value.
16:08	TimMc	(Oh, and unregisters its atom.)
16:12	TimMc	weavejester: Alternatively, the notification service maintains a file event count. Client-side code keeps this as an opaque data value and sends it along with the XHR, getting a replacement value back each time -- along with whether to refresh as calculated by (!= old new).
16:12	Raynes	TimMc: Man, I thought you were talking about a restaurant for a moment there.
16:13	TimMc	This approach does not rely on any queue, and each waiter simply sets a timeout and does that simple calculation when the timer fires.
16:14	TimMc	Raynes: I'm not? :-(
16:14	Raynes	I see what you did there./
16:19	TimMc	Raynes: What I did == killed the channel?
16:19	gtrak	is there a = that treats nested seqs/vectors within a map the same?
16:19	Raynes	TimMc: Yes.
16:19	gtrak	like... I don't want it to fail if the thing's a vector instead of a seq
16:20	TimMc	&(= {:a [1]} {:a (seq [1])})
16:20	lazybot	⇒ true
16:21	TimMc	gtrak: vectors and seqs are in the same equality partition
16:21	gtrak	ah, I'm just doing something wrong :-) thanks
16:21	gtrak	that's good to know anyway
16:21	TimMc	gtrak: Last table: http://www.brainonfire.net/files/seqs-and-colls/main.html
16:22	gtrak	neato
16:22	TimMc	Technically it only shows a list vs. a vector, but whatevs. :-P
16:22	gtrak	what i did was I used defn vs def accidentally, so it tried to equate a map and a function xD
16:22	gtrak	but i've never seen a defn without an arglist, why would that work?
16:23	gtrak	,(defn parsed {:graphs '("graph1" "graph2") :endpoint "http://url" :all? true})
16:23	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
16:23	gtrak	&(defn parsed {:graphs '("graph1" "graph2") :endpoint "http://url" :all? true})
16:23	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
16:23	gtrak	&(fn {:graphs '("graph1" "graph2") :endpoint "http://url" :all? true})
16:23	lazybot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: PersistentArrayMap
16:23	gtrak	hmm..
16:52	devn	Raynes: do you know off the top of your head, is it possible to capture out from (sandbox (safe-read "(println 1)"))? I'm using (with-out-str and I'm just getting back empty string. How would I capture out here?
16:54	ibdknox	devn: you can supply a set of bindings to the sandbox, you need to bind out to your own thing and then read from that
16:54	Licenser	devn not sure how it is in raynes sandbox but for clj-sandbox stuff like out and stuff were bound on the creation of a sandbox
16:57	devn	ibdknox: im not seeing where
16:58	muhoo	it is so funny how much the vc/tech business reminds me of the music business
16:58	devn	Licenser: yeah im not sure that happens anymore
16:58	dgrnbrg	what's the easiest way to print a double w/ 2 digits of decimal places?
16:58	muhoo	you develop an indie following, then you get signed by a major
16:58	dgrnbrg	or just to convert a double to a string w/ 2 digits of decimal places?
16:59	technomancy	,(format "%0.2f" (/ 2 3))
16:59	clojurebot	#<MissingFormatWidthException java.util.MissingFormatWidthException: 0.2f>
16:59	technomancy	,(format "%.2f" (/ 2 3))
16:59	clojurebot	#<IllegalFormatConversionException java.util.IllegalFormatConversionException: f != clojure.lang.Ratio>
16:59	Raynes	devn: lazybot has examples of rebinding out.
16:59	technomancy	,(format "%.2f" (float (/ 2 3))) ; FINE CLOJUREBOT
16:59	clojurebot	"0.67"
16:59	Raynes	What ibdknox said is spot on.
17:00	devn	Raynes: thanks, and thanks ibdknox
17:00	dgrnbrg	technomancy: thanks
17:00	devn	and thanks Licenser for starting the whole thing :)
17:00	Raynes	devn: Also, I showed an example in my talk. Did you not pay attention? :(!
17:00	Licenser	^^
17:00	Raynes	I'm hurt, devn.
17:00	devn	Raynes: lol. i have that one coming.
17:00	devn	i was out until 4am the night before and walked in near the end :X
17:01	Licenser	Raynes if there's one thing you should have learned ins school it's: students never listen to what the teacher sais
17:01	Raynes	I slept through most of the conference, so totally understandable.
17:01	muhoo	ok, so snoir send-request blows up with clojure.lang.Var$Unbound when there is a noir.session/flash-get in the page
17:02	muhoo	apparently noir-flash doesn't exist when send-request is used
17:02	devn	Raynes: wicked. thanks.
17:05	TimMc	&(defn oops {:some :map})
17:05	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
17:06	Raynes	muhoo: Those things are only bound inside of a request.
17:06	TimMc	Urr... right. ANyway, if you then do (oops), you get a NPE
17:06	devn	Raynes: seems like some of the stuff in lazybot could maybe be brought over to clojail? maybe?
17:06	Raynes	devn: Perhaps.
17:07	devn	seems like someone like me could do that...
17:07	devn	;)
17:07	Raynes	:p
17:07	devn	what does box? do?
17:07	devn	(skimming the lazybot clojure.clj plugin)
17:08	Raynes	devn: You can run lazybot and let his eval plugin work without a sandbox. It is useful in private company channels and stuff where you know your employees and coworkers aren't going to delete your machine.
17:08	Raynes	Or if you run it on a work machine or something.
17:08	muhoo	so i'm confused then how to mock/test a noir app. i figured send-request would do it, but i guess not.
17:08	Raynes	I added it because we do at Geni.
17:08	devn	Raynes: gotcha
17:08	Raynes	devn: It probably isn't particularly elegant. I sometimes add things on the fly without really thinking them through.
17:08	Raynes	It's a character flaw.
17:09	Raynes	muhoo: There is a way to mock all of those things, but I sure don't remember what it is.
17:09	Raynes	ibdknox:
17:09	Licenser	Raynes you trust your coworkers enough for that?
17:09	Raynes	^
17:09	Raynes	Licenser: Sure, it runs on a company server.
17:09	Raynes	Not my problem if they delete stuff on that. :p
17:10	Licenser	wow I'd not trust any of my colegues furthen then I can throw them - and many of them are rather heavy
17:10	Licenser	hah
17:10	TimMc	"Raynes' bot deleted some stuff on the server!"
17:10	devn	It could be a lot of fun. send messages to raynes by popping up swing guis
17:10	Raynes	Haha
17:11	TimMc	"Including its own logs, mysteriously!"
17:11	devn	i actually ran everything from #clojure without safe-read the first time
17:11	devn	and no issues
17:11	technomancy	now that you said that though...
17:11	Raynes	TimMc: You should send me a lazybot pull request fixing the escaping problem in the logs.
17:11	devn	technomancy: lol
17:11	TimMc	devn: I remember when you found out about read-eval...
17:12	Raynes	Man, watching Stuart Sierra's talk was the scariest thing about the Conj.
17:12	TimMc	Raynes: Why so concerned about it suddenly?
17:12	Raynes	We all thought he was going to pretty much cover the topic of my talk. It turned out to be an excellent primer for my talk though.
17:12	Raynes	He talked about read-eval and stuff which is highly relevant to how clojail works.
17:13	muhoo	aha! (with-noir (send-request "/")) ftw
17:13	Raynes	TimMc: because you're malevolent and I'd rather have you on my side.
17:14	TimMc	Also, OMG, you haven't <b>fixed</b> that yet?
17:16	TimMc	I don't know where that code even lives. Not up for archaeology at the moment.
17:16	Raynes	TimMc: src/lazybot/plugins/logger.clj
17:17	TimMc	But it logs to text file, yeah? Not the place to escape stuff, really.
17:17	TimMc	At least, not the place for HTML-encoding.
17:18	TimMc	What's broken is the web server, perhaps the JS.
17:19	Raynes	TimMc: Yeah, but it'd be cool if lazybot served the text files himself. So do that.
17:20	TimMc	OK, but I'll make it only respond to SPARQL queries.
17:21	TimMc	Raynes: $('#log').html(lines.join("\n")); is the culprit. Map over lines with an html-encoding function, then join on "<br>".
17:22	TimMc	I also shudder to think what kind of path traversal exploits you might have in the server.
17:26	TimMc	Raynes: Or hell, you may be able to just dump the contents in via .text() and use a CSS style to force line breaks to be respected.
17:28	eggsby	hey raek with your help I was able to get my macro working, thanks!
17:29	raek	eggsby: np :)
17:32	muhoo	now, if only there were a way to maintain a cookie store through several (with-noir (send-request)) requests, hmm
17:32	muhoo	putting several send-requests inside one (with-noir) does not cut the mustard
17:58	fil512	how can I turn a string into a BufferedInputStream?
17:58	fil512	when I try (io/input-stream string)
17:59	fil512	it interprets my string as a filename
17:59	weavejester	ByteArrayInputStream
17:59	fil512	what would the syntax be?
17:59	S11001001	fil512: there's no syntax, it's just normal java calls
17:59	fil512	I've never made a normal java call before
18:00	fil512	in clojure
18:00	S11001001	http://clojure.org/java_interop
18:00	weavejester	fil512: (ByteArrayInputStream. (.getBytes s))
18:00	weavejester	So (.getBytes s) is equivalent to the java s.getBytes()
18:00	weavejester	And (ByteArrayInputStream. foo) is equivalent to: new ByteArrayInputStream(foo)
18:03	nDuff	What's the CCW equivalent to paredit's ctrl+right, ie. [(foo\|) bar] => [(foo\| bar)]
18:05	fil512	weavejester: thank you
18:09	fil512	is there a quick way to turn my map keys to keywords?
18:09	fil512	from strings
18:11	raek	fil512: clojure.walk/stringify-keys
18:14	devn	Raynes: hehe -- just found out why all the stuff in my DB started to magically get "I'm a string: ..." in them:
18:14	devn	Raynes: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-11-09.html#16:34
18:15	Raynes	Hahahaha
18:15	devn	lol
18:16	devn	Raynes: other question for you: are these sandbox local? WARNING: next already refers to: #'clojure.core/next in namespace: sandbox5320, being replaced by: #'clojure.zip/next
18:16	espeed	is there a way to define a default value to return if a record doesn't contain a key?
18:16	devn	I'm allowing def, those won't persist will they?
18:16	hiredman	devn: that's the result of someone doing (use 'clojure.zip)
18:16	TimMc	espeed: ##(doc get)
18:16	lazybot	⇒ "([map key] [map key not-found]); Returns the value mapped to key, not-found or nil if key not present."
18:17	devn	hiredman: any idea what would cause this one? WARNING: map already refers to: #'clojure.core/map in namespace: sandbox5320, being replaced by: #'clojure/map
18:17	devn	hiredman: that's just all alone
18:17	TimMc	espeed: And records probably support that syntax directly, too.
18:17	hiredman	devn: that is just weird
18:17	devn	happened somewhere around 10-22
18:17	devn	(2008)
18:18	hiredman	(do (in-ns 'clojure) (def map 1) (in-ns 'sandbox) (use 'clojure))
18:18	hiredman	oh
18:18	hiredman	2008 would have been around the time the clojure ns became clojure.core
18:18	hiredman	maybe late 2008
18:20	technomancy	late 2008; the scars were still fresh when I joined.
18:22	espeed	TimMc: thanks. I am for something more like __getattr__, which is a function that's called if an object doesn't contain an attribute; so that the default value doesn't have to be explicitly passed to "get"
18:22	espeed	(__getattr__ in Python)
18:22	devn	hiredman: so, still -- how did that happen?
18:22	devn	hiredman: do you see what did it here? http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-10-22.html
18:24	hiredman	devn: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-10-22.html#00:59
18:24	hiredman	if sometime ealier someone had done (in-ns 'clojure) (defn map ...) or similar
18:25	devn	hiredman: bingo. thanks
18:28	yoklov	espeed: if you implement IFn, and use the record as a function (as you also often do with maps and such), you can handle it the way you would like. there might be another way, but I'm not aware of it
18:40	espeed	yoklov: thanks
18:41	TimMc	espeed: "implement IFn" is a minor nightmare, by the way
18:42	nDuff	espeed: ...oh, hey, you're the one porting the graph library? Think I've seen a few of your questions over on StackOverflow
18:42	espeed	nDuff: yes, as a Clojure learning exercise
18:42	nDuff	espeed: ...very much IMHO, but trying to Python idioms over to a non-Pythonic language seems a bit silly.
18:42	yoklov	TimMc: why is implement IFn a nightmare? You don't have to implement all the arities
18:42	nDuff	s/trying to/trying to port/
18:43	espeed	nDuff: part of this process if figuring out the "Clojure-way" of doing things
18:43	TimMc	yoklov: No?
18:43	espeed	*is
18:44	yoklov	TimMc: at least, you don't in ClojureScript, though maybe it's different because in cljs IFn is a protocol and not a java interface?
18:45	hiredman	(for [i (range 20) :when (not= arity-I-care-about i)] `(invoke ~(vec (repeat i '_)) (throw (IllegalSomethingOrOther.))))
18:45	hiredman	then you just copy and paste the output of that for into your deftype
18:47	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/clojure/blob/41df324e8e6699af82d6d3d2ccaae4ae840904ad/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RIC.java#L1864
18:50	amalloy	don't forget the this-arg
18:50	hiredman	sure
18:50	hiredman	that
18:54	devn	Raynes: i conj'd 'defmethod onto secure-tester-without-def, but it still seems to eval it
18:57	devn	Raynes: maybe not
19:27	eggsby	hmm, say I have a sequence of functions, how can I expand those out into individual function calls?
19:28	eggsby	like (list even? (partial = 2)) etc and I have some value I want to apply to every function
19:28	eggsby	more specifically I want to say (and (pred1 data) (pred2 data) (pred3 data)) etc
19:29	eggsby	so it'd be expanded to something like (and (even? 2) (= 2 2))
19:30	amalloy	(every? #(% data) fns)
19:31	technomancy	couldn't you use juxt for that?
19:32	technomancy	(apply every? ((juxt f1 f2 f3) x))
19:33	technomancy	that's wrong, but it uses juxt, so it's better
19:33	raek	:)
19:33	eggsby	grr this stupid problem won't bend to my will
19:34	eggsby	every works amalloy thanks, I'll just have to make stuff play nice with it
19:35	amalloy	technomancy: laziness, though
19:36	amalloy	i think a version with juxt that works (laziness aside) is like (every? identity ((apply juxt fs) x))
19:36	technomancy	every? true?
19:39	raek	juxt is better - even when it's wrong
19:39	raek	that should be the motto of the juxt fan club
19:40	amalloy	technomancy: i'm pretty sure we want identity here, unless you're insisting on every function returning a boolean
19:41	technomancy	guess it depends on the domain
19:41	clojurebot	excusez-moi
20:46	gfredericks	I was shown speclj for the first time today and cannot figure out why the (with) macro creates a derefable
20:49	nDuff	Is ccw.clojure available as part of any published Maven repository?
21:25	dnolen`	a page describing how to extend core.logic http://github.com/clojure/core.logic/wiki/Extending-core.logic-(Datomic-example)
23:22	ForSpareParts	Is there any way to examine a clojure function from clojure? Like as a list of function calls, maybe?
23:27	xeqi	ForSpareParts: are you looking for ##(doc source) or something like https://github.com/frenchy64/analyze
23:27	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: source in this context
23:27	xeqi	&(doc clojure.repl/source)
23:27	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([n]); Prints the source code for the given symbol, if it can find it. This requires that the symbol resolve to a Var defined in a namespace for which the .clj is in the classpath. Example: (source filter)"
23:28	ForSpareParts	Not sure which would do it. I'm thinking about unit testing and regression -- it would be useful to be able to list all the functions called by a given function.
23:29	ForSpareParts	Unless there's a much better way of doing that sort of thing that I'm just missing...?
23:29	dnolen`	ForSpareParts: it's possible but you would need to adapt an analyzer like the one that ships with ClojureScript
23:30	ForSpareParts	hm. Does vanilla Clojure not come with one?
23:31	brehaut	not currently
23:31	ForSpareParts	Interesting.
23:32	ForSpareParts	Am I missing a better approach to this problem? I was thinking about a Java implementation, but it turned into a big OOP mess in my head.
23:32	brehaut	clojurescript is sort of a proof of concept for clojure in clojure. its also clojure implemented with 3 or so years hindsight, so its got tricks that jvm clojure does not
23:34	dnolen`	ForSpareParts: I believe Clojure does have an analyzer but I don't think it's very easy to use.
23:34	dnolen`	ForSpareParts: just use the one in ClojureScript, analyzer is like <500 lines of code or something.
23:34	brehaut	ambrosebs has a port of it to clojure doesnt he?
23:35	ForSpareParts	Yeah, I found something about the Clojure analyzer on dev.clojure.org that links to the Frenchy64 project that xeqi linked me to.
23:39	zakwilson	I can't find the new comment reader syntax with google. What is it?
23:40	dnolen`	zakwilson: new?
23:40	zakwilson	dnolen`: there's something new in 1.4, as I recall.
23:41	dnolen`	zakwilson: tagged literals
23:44	zakwilson	dnolen`: found it in the reader source: #_
23:45	dnolen`	zakwilson: that's not new
23:46	zakwilson	dnolen`: I'll take your word for that. I only learned about it recently and I made a mental note of it being new.