#clojure – 2012-05-23

2012-05-23

00:16	scottj	dnolen: would be nice to add a link to synonym page on main himera page.
00:22	brainproxy	+1 ^
00:25	dnolen	scottj: brainproxy: fork, fix, and send fogus a pull request.
00:29	scottj	Raynes: "Химера was a Russian band that I liked very much as a younger man." I figured it was from chimera because it's part clojure, part clojurescript, part javascript.
00:30	brainproxy	fork in progress
00:30	scottj	brainproxy: thanks
00:41	brainproxy	scottj: done, https://github.com/fogus/himera/pull/19
00:42	dnolen	brainproxy: scottj: sweet!!!
00:43	brainproxy	btw, if anyone knows the answer... http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4011404
00:44	brainproxy	someone in this chan suggested earlier today that andy fingerhut is the author of the paredit cheat sheet, but I exchanged emails w/ him and he is not the author
00:45	aperiodic	brainproxy: hah, i brain-farted and thought you meant the clojure cheatsheet
00:45	aperiodic	apologies
00:46	brainproxy	aperiodic: np, andy kindly replied and went hunting for the source file but he couldn't find it either
01:38	omasanori	hi, does anyone see me?
01:39	brainproxy	omasanori: is that a wig?
01:42	omasanori	no, I just worried there in no user here now
01:45	omasanori	s/in/is/ ... maybe I'm so tired...
01:50	omasanori	I'd like to ask about clojure.repl/doc
01:51	omasanori	doc expects that docstrings have 2 spaces every line except the first line, right?
02:08	omasanori	I'm very sorry if my manner is poor...
02:10	ivan	omasanori: #clojure is less idle during US business hours ;)
02:11	ivan	I don't think doc expects any specific format for your paragraphs
02:13	ivan	oh never mind, I see that's not the question
02:13	ivan	well, it looks like print-doc prints two spaces and then the docstring
02:14	ivan	so, "yes"
02:15	omasanori	Ah, I see. I forget timezone...
02:18	omasanori	So, I'll post a RFC patch to the ML, but I'm unsure whether my direction is right or not.
02:20	omasanori	My thought is that the algorithm described in http://docs.python.org/tutorial/controlflow.html#documentation-strings makes `doc` free from indentation details.
02:28	omasanori	I'm sorry, my client crashed.
02:30	omasanori	For example, clojure.core/conj is with 4 spaces for indent, so (doc conj) looks weird.
02:37	omasanori	So I'm writing a patch implementing the algorithm for formatting docstrings consistently, but I'm unsure whether it's right or not. any opinions?
03:13	pepijndevos	Raynes: ping
03:31	pepijndevos	$mail Raynes Maybe sexpbot was not a good idea. I have no control over it, and people want logging disabled.
03:31	lazybot	Message saved.
03:33	Raynes	pepijndevos: amalloy asked you if you wanted logging.
03:33	pepijndevos	Raynes: I wanted, but some other people don't, apparently.
03:33	Raynes	I'll happily disable it though, and I can delete the existing logs.
03:34	Raynes	Do you want me to remove him from the channel?
03:34	pepijndevos	Raynes: That'd be cool. But I don;t want to keep bothering you for every... whatever, so maybe I should just host my own instance.
03:34	Raynes	FYI, people have attitudes about bots for no particular reason.
03:34	Raynes	Just a heads up.
03:35	Raynes	Even if you host it, people will find something to bitch about until you start telling them to bug off.
03:35	ro_st	#firstworldbotproblems
03:35	Raynes	pepijndevos: Anyways, do you want me to take him out so you can host your own instance or just disable logging?
03:35	pepijndevos	There are a few people who are bots themselves in that channel, so they know how it feels, I guess.
03:35	amalloy	damn irc bots taking all our jobs
03:37	Raynes	pepijndevos: What is this channel again?
03:37	pepijndevos	Raynes: If you want to sleep at night, i think it'd be better if you remove it. I have no problem with bugging you all the time.
03:37	pepijndevos	Raynes: #hackernews
03:37	pepijndevos	school
03:37	Raynes	I'm not sure what else I'd have to do besides disable logging.
03:37	pepijndevos	ok, go for it then :)
03:37	Raynes	I mean, are people complaining about other things?
03:38	Raynes	:p
03:38	pepijndevos	well, if it starts randomy killing people with fire someday, we'll have to get one of you to kill it with fire.
03:38	Raynes	Haha
03:38	Raynes	pepijndevos: Okay, I'll just disable logs. If you decide to host your own instance, just let me or amalloy know and we'll pop him out.
03:38	Raynes	$mail
03:39	pepijndevos	Raynes: ok, thanks :)
03:39	Raynes	(he wouldn't shut up)
03:44	ro_st	do i need to restart my slime repl every time i change project.clj deps?
03:44	Raynes	pepijndevos: If lazybot offends the sensibilities of any other young girls, let me know.
03:44	pepijndevos	ok, thanks
03:44	ro_st	it seems that i do, and it's annoying
03:52	ivan	https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4011359 wants to know what code to read
03:52	ro_st	so, i have a seq of N items. i want to get a new seq of up to M items from that first seq
03:52	pepijndevos	ro_st: Do you have logging enabled? Or exclaim all commit on your git repo?
03:53	ivan	&(take 5 (range))
03:53	lazybot	⇒ (0 1 2 3 4)
03:53	ro_st	take, thanks
03:53	ivan	&(take 5 [1 2 3])
03:53	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3)
03:53	ro_st	pepijndevos: i don't understand the context of your question?
03:55	pepijndevos	"it seems that i do, and it's annoying" I placed that in the "offending young girls context"
03:56	ro_st	oh, right :)
04:03	pepijndevos	Is anyone else flying to euroclojure tonight with ryanair?
04:03	ro_st	looking forward to seeing that HN post grow
04:03	pepijndevos	?
04:04	pepijndevos	the code to read one?
04:06	vijaykiran	pepijndevos: I'm leaving at 1645 via schiphol - klm not ryanair though
04:06	pepijndevos	I lave a lot later as well
04:07	Borkdude	pepijndevos: vijaykiran have fun there!
04:08	ro_st	does anyone have a working clojure-jack-in repl-init setup?
04:08	ro_st	yes pepi. be interesting to see what gets listed
04:09	pepijndevos	ro_st: clojure itself, some other clj impls, overtone, .... hm I don't know
04:09	Borkdude	I find the clojure code itself sometimes hard to read, because a lot of times it involves the bootstrapping process
04:10	Borkdude	nevertheless interesting
04:10	ro_st	clojure core isn't idiomatic clojure, because idiomatic clojure isn't possible at that point
04:10	pepijndevos	Ring?
04:10	clojurebot	ring is http://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/tree/master
04:11	ro_st	ring, enlive, korma, monger
04:12	ro_st	i'm struggling to find docs on lein's repl-init
04:13	ro_st	ahhhh, never mind. just found lein help sample
04:14	Borkdude	a lot of clojure libraries are wrappers around java libraries
04:14	Borkdude	I think those are not so nice examples to read
04:14	wink	depends if they expose the apis in a sane manner
04:17	bobry	Can someone give me a hint why this might happen? 'java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Named'
04:17	bobry	what's 'Named' in clojure terms?
04:18	Borkdude	,(let ["foo" 1] "foo")
04:18	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: Unsupported binding form: foo>
04:18	Borkdude	hmm, that isn't the one ;)
04:18	bobry	:)
04:18	vijaykiran	ro_st: :repl-init [whatever.ns] in project.clj should work
04:18	vijaykiran	ro_st: oh, you said you found it already :)
04:18	ro_st	vijay, weird. the lein sample project says it should be :repl-options { :init-ns … }
04:19	ro_st	is your way for lein2?
04:19	vijaykiran	ro_st: I'm using lein2 - yes.
04:21	ro_st	ok thank you
04:22	Borkdude	bobry: clojure version?
04:25	Borkdude	bobry: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/4bea7a529bb14b99d48758cfaf0d71af0997f0ff
04:25	amalloy	,(ns-name "x")
04:25	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol>
04:25	amalloy	,(namespace "x")
04:25	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Named>
04:28	bobry	Borkdude: 1.4
04:30	ro_st	is it possible to write the output of pprint to a file?
04:30	Borkdude	there should be a table on clojuredocs with on the left hand side a list of exceptions and the right hand side some examples which produce those exceptions and explanations what goes wrong in that code :)
04:31	Borkdude	the first one being: ,(count (1 2 3))
04:31	Borkdude	,(count (1 2 3))
04:31	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
04:35	Borkdude	bobry: Named is an interface: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Named.java
04:35	vijaykiran	,(doc pprint)
04:35	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
04:36	vijaykiran	ro_st: pprint takes writer as second arg
04:36	Borkdude	bobry: for example Symbol implements this interface: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Symbol.java
04:41	vijaykiran	ro_st: try this (with-open [w (clojure.java.io/writer "file:///tmp/test.txt")] (pprint {:one 1 :two "two2"} w))
04:41	ro_st	awesome!
04:41	ro_st	i was trying to use (spit)
04:42	vijaykiran	ro_st: that can be tricky because pprint just returns nil
04:42	Borkdude	ah keyword also implements named
04:43	ro_st	that worked beautifully, thanks vijay (once again)
04:44	vijaykiran	yw :)
04:46	vijaykiran	is blah# a convention for files/dirs ?
04:47	Borkdude	vijaykiran: it is the notation for an autogensymmed name in a syntax quote
04:47	Borkdude	, `(let [foo# 10] foo#)
04:47	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [foo__27__auto__ 10] foo__27__auto__)
04:48	vijaykiran	I'm looking at this: https://github.com/immutant/immutant/blob/master/modules/web/src/main/clojure/immutant/web.clj#L68
04:48	Borkdude	vijaykiran: yes, f# is an autogensymmed name, which is to say a fairly uniquely generated name
04:49	Borkdude	vijaykiran: note the `, it means syntax-quote, all names get fully qualified within it, except autogensymmed ones
04:49	Borkdude	,`+
04:49	clojurebot	clojure.core/+
04:50	Borkdude	,`+#
04:50	clojurebot	+__80__auto__
04:50	vijaykiran	Borkdude: okies, thx. I still need wrap/slice/splice/unwrap/synquote my brain :)
04:50	Borkdude	vijaykiran: just to make sure, what do you mean with wrap?
04:52	Borkdude	vijaykiran: nm ;)
04:52	vijaykiran	:)
05:09	Borkdude	is there a faculty function in clojure? ##(reduce * (range 1 10))
05:09	lazybot	⇒ 362880
05:10	vijaykiran	faculty ?
05:13	pepijndevos	Borkdude: hehe, I'm not sure you can translate it that literally.
05:13	Borkdude	haha
05:13	vijaykiran	factorial ? :)
05:14	Borkdude	vijaykiran: ah, of course :)
05:16	pepijndevos	I know the concept as "whaming"
05:17	pepijndevos	(defn ! [n] (reduce * (range 1 n)))
05:17	ro_st	does emacs clojure-mode support refactorings like rename? i ask because i see that it already does mark-occurences
05:22	Borkdude	pepijndevos: it should be (range 1 (inc n)), detail
05:23	pepijndevos	ok
05:23	Borkdude	pepijndevos: because the last value is non-inclusive
05:23	pepijndevos	... right
05:24	pepijndevos	apply would also work... eternal dilemma
05:32	amalloy	pepijndevos: "whaming"?
05:33	pepijndevos	amalloy: http://www.bol.com/nl/s/boeken/zoekresultaten/Ntt/De+Telduivel/search/true/searchType/qck/N/8299/sI/true/sA/300/sc/books_all/index.html
05:34	pepijndevos	amalloy: Great book for kids to learn arithmetic, but they use funny names for some things.
05:34	amalloy	welp, i definitely don't speak enough...dutch? i'm ashamed to say i can't remember what language you speak
05:34	amalloy	oh, that's his name for factorial?
05:34	pepijndevos	dutch
05:35	pepijndevos	yea
05:35	pepijndevos	telduivel = counting devil
05:36	amalloy	it makes a little sense, given the english slang "bang" for !
05:36	pepijndevos	yea
05:36	pepijndevos	It's about a boy who sucks at mathc and has nightmares, and then the telduivel shows up in his dreams and starts questioning him about numbers and stuff.
05:37	pepijndevos	haha, at some point his whole dream is full of rabbits, because he explained fibonacci.
05:41	Borkdude	pepijndevos: what is the dutch name in telduivel for factorial?
05:41	pepijndevos	Borkdude: wham, I think.
05:41	Borkdude	pepijndevos: why?
05:41	pepijndevos	can;t remember
05:42	Borkdude	pepijndevos: I remember my wife speaking about this book, maybe it inspired her to become a mathematician
05:43	pepijndevos	Borkdude: Amazing, but yea, inspiring book. Do you have kids?
05:43	Borkdude	pepijndevos: nope, no fibonacci like procreation here
05:43	pepijndevos	haha
05:44	pepijndevos	They where all metaphors for visual surealistic things that happened in the drea
05:44	pepijndevos	m
05:46	Borkdude	pepijndevos: did you know the limit of fib n / fib n-1 for n -> infinity is the golden ratio?
05:47	pepijndevos	yea...
05:48	pepijndevos	You don;t even need to start at a valid number
05:48	Borkdude	pepijndevos: ha cool, didn't know that
05:49	pepijndevos	... I think
05:53	pepijndevos	ok, maybe I was wrong....
05:53	pepijndevos	no!
05:57	pepijndevos	Borkdude: https://gist.github.com/2774339
05:58	Borkdude	,(let [fib-seed (fn [a b] (fn ([n] (fib n a b)) ([n f1 f2] (if (= n 1) f1 (recur (dec n) f2 (+ f1 f2)))))), fib-1-1 (fib-seed 1 1), fib-10-10 (fib-seed 10 10)] [(/ (float (fib-1-1 10)) (fib-1-1 9)) (/ (float (fib-10-10 10)) (fib-10-10 9))])
05:58	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: fib in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
05:58	Borkdude	,(let [fib-seed (fn [a b] (fn fib ([n] (fib n a b)) ([n f1 f2] (if (= n 1) f1 (recur (dec n) f2 (+ f1 f2)))))), fib-1-1 (fib-seed 1 1), fib-10-10 (fib-seed 10 10)] [(/ (float (fib-1-1 10)) (fib-1-1 9)) (/ (float (fib-10-10 10)) (fib-10-10 9))])
05:58	clojurebot	[1.6176470588235294 1.6176470588235294]
06:00	pepijndevos	I'm pretty sure it's 618
06:00	pepijndevos	Borkdude: did you see my gist?
06:00	Borkdude	pepijndevos: yes, the golden ratio is 1.618.. though
06:01	pepijndevos	hm... right :(
06:01	Borkdude	look this is better, the further you go in the fib sequence the closer it will get:
06:01	Borkdude	,(let [fib-seed (fn [a b] (fn fib ([n] (fib n a b)) ([n f1 f2] (if (= n 1) f1 (recur (dec n) f2 (+ f1 f2)))))), fib-1-1 (fib-seed 1 1), fib-10-10 (fib-seed 10 10)] [(/ (float (fib-1-1 20)) (fib-1-1 19)) (/ (float (fib-10-10 20)) (fib-10-10 19))])
06:01	clojurebot	[1.6180339631667064 1.6180339631667064]
06:02	Borkdude	the second one being the fibonacci with other start values
06:02	Borkdude	10 10 in this case
06:02	michaelr`	rrr
06:02	pepijndevos	Borkdude: Your code is a bit dense...
06:02	michaelr`	anyone knows how is (defpartial) in noir deiffers from a regular (defn)?
06:03	Borkdude	michaelr`: not much, look at the src
06:03	Borkdude	pepijndevos: yes… fib-seed is a function which takes two values and provides them as the two starting values to the fibonacci function
06:03	Borkdude	pepijndevos: and I call fib-seed with 11 (normal) and 10 10
06:04	Borkdude	pepijndevos: it shows that it indeed doesn't make much difference, but what if I choose different (absurd) values?
06:05	pepijndevos	Borkdude: It just takes longer to converge
06:05	Borkdude	pepijndevos: amazing, I guess a mathematical proof is more in place here than just trying numbers :)
06:06	pepijndevos	fixed my code:https://gist.github.com/2774339
06:07	michaelr`	Borkdude: yeah, i looked at the source and saw that i doesn't do much
06:08	Borkdude	michaelr`: I think defpartial says: this function will return something which will be embedded in a page
06:08	Borkdude	michaelr`: and not much more than that
06:08	Borkdude	michaelr`: (it doesn't even allow multiple function bodies)
06:09	Borkdude	pepijndevos: cool
06:13	michaelr`	i'm trying to find out why the rendering function here takes 140ms
06:25	michaelr`	damn
06:26	pepijndevos	michaelr`: Thread/sleep?
06:28	michaelr`	hmm nope
06:28	michaelr`	i don't know what slows it down. do you know whether it's reasonable for hiccup to take 100 ms to render a page?
06:28	michaelr`	of course it depends on what functions i call in the rendering process, but it seems i didn't use anything heavy just string concatenation
06:29	pepijndevos	michaelr`: that can be very expensive, depending on how you do it.
06:29	michaelr`	i also use map destructuring on most of the partials, could this be the reason?
06:30	Borkdude	michaelr`: you can analyze each part with the time macro in a repl?
06:30	pepijndevos	michaelr`: meten is weten (to measure is to know). You could run a profiler.
06:31	michaelr`	well yes, i timed all the parts and it looks like most of the time is spent somewhere in the html compiler.
06:31	michaelr`	profiler is probably the next thing i'm going to try
06:32	michaelr`	what are you using, yourkit?
06:32	pepijndevos	visualvm
06:32	pepijndevos	bit yourkit seems to be what all the sponsored oss projects are using :P
06:33	michaelr`	:)
06:34	michaelr`	pepijndevos: can visualvm profile a remote process?
06:34	pepijndevos	michaelr`: I don't know... how remote? Like on a server remote?
06:35	michaelr`	yup
06:51	Borkdude	I'm trying out visualvm and I see a remote thing in the menu
06:54	pepijndevos	What is the timezone difference between the 2 ends of america?
06:55	pepijndevos	I'm beginning to suspect some people just never sleep
06:55	Borkdude	pepijndevos: http://everytimezone.com/
06:55	clgv	oh someone changed his nick to his real name ;)
06:57	pepijndevos	clgv: yea
06:58	pepijndevos	It happened way to often that people who read stuff by pepijndevos on twitter or elswhere on the interwebs never made the connection to fliebel on irc.
06:59	clgv	g
06:59	pepijndevos	g?
06:59	clgv	grin
07:01	clgv	pepijndevos: you arrived in london?
07:01	pepijndevos	clgv: No, I'm flying this evening
07:01	clgv	ah right
07:01	clgv	I guess most do
07:02	pepijndevos	clgv: are you coming/already there?
07:02	clgv	pepijndevos: no. maybe next year.
07:05	pepijndevos	oh, sht, do I need to print some sort of ticket fro then conf?
07:07	pepijndevos	yea, I do... phew
07:09	Borkdude	pepijndevos: I read that VirtualVM is bundled with the newest JDKs
07:09	Borkdude	pepijndevos: would that mean I would already have it on my system, if so, where? (OSX)
07:09	pepijndevos	oh?
07:09	Borkdude	pepijndevos: it looks pretty easy to use, I'm going to recommend to it a student who has heap memory problems right now
07:09	pepijndevos	no idea... /library or /developer probably
07:09	clgv	Borkdude: you mean JVisualVM?
07:10	Borkdude	clgv: http://visualvm.java.net/download.html
07:11	clgv	Borkdude: ok you meant it. yeah that one is in one of your jdk folders. it has been there already in java 6 as well
07:11	clgv	at least on linux
07:13	Borkdude	I guess it has to do with apple's jdk
07:14	clgv	openjdk is missing some tools as well
07:14	clgv	e.g. javaws
07:14	Borkdude	not a problem, I can just install it
07:29	piranha	hi all. Just installed lein2 and in 'lein2 repl' I cannot execute any command - it doesn't react to 'enter' key. It doesn't react properly to C-c either (though it prints ^C). It does react properly to other keys (including C-d). Any ideas what can cause this?
07:30	pepijndevos	piranha: No idea... try lein2 trampoline repl
07:30	piranha	sure
07:31	piranha	doesn't work either :(
07:32	pepijndevos	piranha: Update readline or jline? I have no clue what I'm saying btw...
07:32	piranha	I have tried REPLy yesterday (I had lein 1.7.1) and same problem was present. I understand that lein2 uses reply, but I have no idea how to fix this...
07:32	piranha	hm, update readline... well, I'm on osx, and I think I'm using system one
07:32	clgv	lein2 uses REPLy? not nrepl?
07:33	Borkdude	piranha: on what OS are you?
07:33	piranha	mac os x
07:33	piranha	clgv: I think both of them
07:33	piranha	that's what it prints for me on start: http://paste.in.ua/4272/
07:33	Borkdude	piranha: try this one https://www.dropbox.com/s/mw9fo73bueimtcm/leiningen-2.0.0-SNAPSHOT-bugfixed-reply-standalone.jar
07:34	piranha	Borkdude: thanks, how do I install this? :-)
07:34	piranha	(I'm sorry, I'm very new to clojure and java worlds)
07:34	Borkdude	piranha: put it in the folder ~/.lein/self-installs
07:34	piranha	should I remove current one there?
07:35	Borkdude	piranha: and update the version in the lein script
07:35	Borkdude	piranha: no, shouldn't hurt
07:35	piranha	or should I rename this one to replace? Or maybe just edit ~/bin/lein?
07:35	piranha	ah ok
07:35	piranha	:-)
07:35	Borkdude	piranha: I just wonder if you have the same bug that is fixed in this version
07:35	Borkdude	piranha: there were some concurrency problems with reply
07:36	piranha	Borkdude: http://paste.in.ua/4273/
07:36	Borkdude	piranha: can you show me your lein script?
07:36	piranha	sure
07:37	piranha	http://paste.in.ua/4274/
07:37	piranha	Borkdude: ^ here it is
07:37	Borkdude	piranha: remove the first LEIN_VERSION line
07:37	piranha	well, it should hurt :)
07:37	Borkdude	piranha: wait, that shouldn't matter of course
07:37	piranha	yep, just tried - nothing changes
07:37	Borkdude	piranha: what happens if you type "lein version" ?
07:38	piranha	Borkdude: same output (with ClassNotFound)
07:38	Borkdude	piranha: where did you put the jar?
07:38	Borkdude	full path
07:38	Borkdude	just to make sure
07:39	piranha	~/.lein/self-installs/...jar
07:39	clojurebot	Excuse me?
07:39	piranha	but!
07:39	piranha	Borkdude: it's very small, 31k :)
07:39	Borkdude	haha
07:39	Borkdude	piranha: omg, you downloaded html I guess
07:39	piranha	probably, one moment
07:39	piranha	yeah I did :D
07:39	clgv	lol :D
07:39	piranha	ah, thanks, dropbox :D
07:40	piranha	Borkdude: well, it starts, but has the same problem :)
07:41	piranha	C-j doesn't work either
07:41	Borkdude	piranha: interesting...
07:41	Borkdude	piranha: are you in a project or not?
07:41	piranha	not, just in my home dir
07:41	Borkdude	piranha: are you using a ~/.lein/profiles.clj ?
07:41	piranha	hm, I'm wondering if it looks at my ~/.inputrc...
07:41	piranha	nope, I don't have it
07:42	piranha	ha!
07:42	piranha	got it fixed
07:42	piranha	by editing ~/.inputrc
07:42	Borkdude	piranha: what was it?
07:42	piranha	I had "Control-j: menu-complete" in my ~/.inputrc
07:43	piranha	now I'm even not sure why did I put it there...
07:43	Borkdude	piranha: what do you use control-j for ?
07:44	piranha	I guess I tried to get some fancy zsh-like autocompletion in bash...
07:44	piranha	well, doesn't matter, I think I can remove it
07:44	piranha	sorry to bother you :)
07:44	Borkdude	piranha: I guess you can get rid of the custom jar then, but if you run into a hanging repl, you will need it until the next preview release
07:44	piranha	ok, sure :) thanks a lot!
07:45	Borkdude	piranha: ok, also we have #leiningen channel
07:45	Borkdude	piranha: if you have any other questions
07:45	piranha	oh, ok :) will go there next time :)
08:48	ro_st	argh. could anyone using clojure-jack-in please tell me how to automatically (use 'clojure.repl) and (use 'clojure.pprint) when my slime repl starts up? i'm going round in circles trying to get :repl-init working
08:50	ro_st	actually, is there a way to always have those two available regardless of what namespace my repl is in?
08:59	foxdonut	nice gadget on Google's home page today..
09:01	kilon	moog forever :D
09:03	gtrak	that's awesome, JS stuff?
09:04	kilon	hello by the way , I am new to clojure coming from common lisp and python (mainly python developer) is this the proper channel for all Clojure implementation including the javascript one ?
09:05	gtrak	kilon: yessir
09:06	kilon	I ask because when I aks for other python implementations (see jython) except cpython in #python and other lisp implementations of lisp excpet common lisp in #lisp people turn blue and treat me like an alien :D
09:06	ro_st	kilon: that's ok. people can not act beyond their current level of consciousness :)
09:07	kilon	yeah I have some problem undestanding the reasoning behind this, but I am optimistic one day I will.
09:08	kilon	so you think its relative easy for a pythonista like me (glanced through common lisp with "Land of Lisp" book) to learn clojure ? or should i embrace myself ?
09:08	ro_st	very easy. you're not so much learning new stuff as unlearning old stuff
09:08	ro_st	clojurebook.com joyofclojure.com vimeo.com/channels/fulldisclojure/
09:08	ro_st	pick one and get stuck in
09:08	kilon	great, I have already read partial the documentation on the website
09:09	kilon	oh you are fast i was about to ask for links :D
09:09	foxdonut	kilon: well it was good of you to ask, I respect that. Indeed, discussions of ClojureScript are welcome here as well.
09:09	ro_st	i've got both the books (first two links) and i've read the first and am about 10% into the 2nd. can't recommend both of them enough
09:09	ro_st	kilon: also watch all of rich hickey's talks on infoq and blip.tv
09:09	kilon	foxdonut: thanks i feel already welcomed
09:10	kilon	ro_st: cant thank you enough will bookmark all of them
09:10	ro_st	particularly "Are we there yet" and "Clojure Concurrency". you'll get a good sense of WHY clojure rather than HOW
09:10	ro_st	knowing the why really helps me to discover the how
09:11	ro_st	kilon: i'm about 3 weeks in, now. most fun i've had as a coder in years
09:11	ro_st	coming from php ruby js
09:12	ro_st	and an embarrassing amount of actionscript
09:12	kilon	common lisp has been a frustration, mainly because of the cryptic documenation
09:12	kilon	ah ruby is great and very similar to python , but better :D
09:15	foxdonut	ro_st: are you a flex developer?
09:15	kilon	how clojure fairs in terms of speed, I know speed is relative , but for example jython is probably very slow on JVM
09:15	ro_st	foxdonut: i used to be
09:16	ro_st	vowed to stop investing my time into the Flash runtime in november last year, haven't look back since
09:17	ro_st	kilon: jvm startup time is a pain, which is largely mitigated by doing in-repl development (in a hot JVM instance) i've done no benchmarking on production code, yet, but i've seen reports of favourable speed comparisons
09:18	foxdonut	ro_st: I understand. But, in previous years when you were in the flex world, how was it? From the outside looking it, the concept looked pretty good.
09:18	kilon	another question , does slojure has a cool debugger like most common lisps, I am extremely interested in live coding and that is what brough me to common lisp in the first place
09:18	foxdonut	I know that now they sent the framework to die over at Apache..
09:18	ro_st	foxdonut: it made a lot of promises that it never quite kept.
09:18	ro_st	performance was always horrific for anything but the simplest of apps
09:19	kilon	saying that Overtone has made me interested in Clojure as well ;)
09:19	ro_st	huge SWFs. we have a v1 app that clocks in at 3.2mb. i'm about 40% of the way through implementing v2 with gclosure style javascript, and the resultant js 'binary' is 150kb. and it's stupid fast compared to the flash version
09:20	ro_st	and, being static-typed OO just like java, you write lots and lots of code
09:21	kilon	ah nice that vimeo videos is what i needed, clojure in action
09:21	ro_st	awesome. just got my mysql to mongo converter clj code working. converting a 30 table sql db into a 7 collection mongo db using korma and monger
09:21	foxdonut	ro_st: that's all very interesting. Dare I ask if at least there were no browser issues?
09:22	ro_st	great learning experience
09:23	ro_st	foxdonut: once you had the right flash version, no, no browser issues. getting to the right flash version could be tricky, though. to give you some idea of how much of a ghost town flash has become, the state of the art of flash detection is expressed in a blog post dated 2008
09:23	ro_st	also, paying $500 for a dev tool? ridiculous.
09:24	gtrak	ro_st: I thought flex UI stuff was pretty nice, though
09:24	pandeiro	,(apply str (interpose \. (partition-all 3 "12345678910")))
09:24	clojurebot	"clojure.lang.LazySeq@13291.clojure.lang.LazySeq@13e34.clojure.lang.LazySeq@149d7.clojure.lang.LazySeq@9e0"
09:24	gtrak	in terms of development
09:25	ro_st	it was ok. nice for trivial stuff. gets hairy quickly for anything bigger
09:25	pandeiro	,(apply str (interpose \. (doall (partition-all 3 "12345678910"))))
09:25	clojurebot	"clojure.lang.LazySeq@13291.clojure.lang.LazySeq@13e34.clojure.lang.LazySeq@149d7.clojure.lang.LazySeq@9e0"
09:25	gtrak	ro_st: I enjoyed Mate
09:25	pandeiro	,(apply str (interpose \. (map doall (partition-all 3 "12345678910"))))
09:25	clojurebot	"clojure.lang.LazySeq@13291.clojure.lang.LazySeq@13e34.clojure.lang.LazySeq@149d7.clojure.lang.LazySeq@9e0"
09:25	ro_st	you had to use stuff like robotlegs and friends to keep things tame
09:25	pandeiro	k i give up
09:25	ro_st	and again, performance sucks
09:25	ro_st	Mate?
09:26	G0SUB	,(apply str (interpose \. (apply concat (partition-all 3 "12345678910"))))
09:26	clojurebot	"1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.1.0"
09:26	G0SUB	pandeiro, ^^^
09:26	gtrak	ro_st: http://mate.asfusion.com/ It's like an event-handling DSL and dependency injection framework
09:26	ro_st	ahh, like squiz and robotlegs
09:26	pandeiro	G0SUB: i want 123.456.789.10
09:26	ro_st	swiz, i mean
09:26	G0SUB	pandeiro, ok. just a sec.
09:27	pandeiro	actually i want 123.456.789-10 but there's no interpoleave fn
09:27	kilon	i wonder is there is any clojure javascript game engine out there for 2d games ? or should I stick to existing javascript libraries and call them in clojure ?
09:28	ro_st	kilon: the latter. clojurescript is still very young
09:28	gtrak	ro_st: an example of an eventmap: http://code.google.com/p/mate-examples/source/browse/trunk/examples/WeatherWidget/src/com/asfusion/weather/maps/MainEventMap.mxml
09:28	kilon	ah ok, I am trying to make a small isometric 2d rpg
09:28	foxdonut	ro_st: I was always interested in Flex but it never really took off in my area, so I only did small examples.
09:28	kilon	so far this seems my best choice ---> http://rpgjs.com/
09:29	G0SUB	,(apply str (flatten (interpose \. (partition-all 3 "12345678910"))))
09:29	clojurebot	"123.456.789.10"
09:29	G0SUB	pandeiro, ^^^
09:29	ro_st	foxdonut: consider yourself lucky. i firmly believe FOSS HTML/CSS/JS is the way to go
09:29	kilon	i am new with javascript too :D
09:29	ro_st	kilon: javascript, the good parts by douglas crockford
09:30	gtrak	ro_st: anyway I miss the declarative style a bit, it was nice if you have good xml autocomplete
09:30	foxdonut	ro_st: no disagreement here. However, to be fair, I'd venture that "gets hairy quickly for anything bigger" applies to all development environments including HTML/CSS/JS -- it's up to the developers to find a way to keep the code well-organized.
09:30	kilon	anyone knows a irc channel for javascript game developers ? ro_st any recommendations ? yes I heard about that book , I have already bough a small reference on the language (pocket book)
09:30	ro_st	gtrak: yeah. it was certainly a good idea, but the flash player was never meant to do what they asked of it
09:31	pandeiro	G0SUB: that works, thanks
09:31	gtrak	yea
09:31	ro_st	foxdonut: of course. the difference is that with html/css/js, the runtimes are improving dramatically every day. flash player only just added support for the middle mouse button in v11
09:31	uvtc	pandeiro, don't get me confused ... there's no interpolate function! :)
09:32	ro_st	it's a great example of why open is better than closed source
09:32	pandeiro	uvtc: there's interpose and interleave but what i really want is an interpoleavelate :)
09:33	G0SUB	pandeiro, how do you want it to behave?
09:33	ro_st	what's the trick for measuring how long a function call takes?
09:34	gtrak	&(time 5)
09:34	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.core
09:34	gtrak	,(time 5)
09:34	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.064 msecs"
09:34	duck11231	ro_st: (time (function-to-test))
09:34	clojurebot	5
09:34	gtrak	what's up pwith lazybot?
09:34	jsabeaudry_	begin lazy again...
09:35	jsabeaudry_	being*
09:35	gtrak	&(println 3)
09:35	lazybot	⇒ 3 nil
09:35	gtrak	&(time (println 3))
09:35	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.core
09:35	gtrak	Raynes: why doesn't 'time' work?
09:36	pandeiro	G0SUB: what i want is to be able to interpose a sequence of chars, not just one
09:36	G0SUB	pandeiro, show me an example invocation and the expected result.
09:37	foxdonut	ro_st: true
09:37	pandeiro	(format-id "12345678910") ;=> "123.456.789-10"
09:38	foxdonut	ro_st: earlier you said "most fun i've had as a coder in years" -- that's exactly how I feel as well, and last time Rich was here, I couldn't thank him enough.
09:38	Borkdude	ehm, conjing onto a vector doesn't really take n steps right?
09:38	G0SUB	pandeiro, that doesn't look like a general function. which sequence of chars are you interposing?
09:38	G0SUB	Borkdude, should be ~O(1)
09:38	pandeiro	G0SUB: '(\. \. \-)
09:39	ro_st	why do i always get these using jdbc and mysql? Message: Communications link failure
09:39	ro_st	if i rerun, it works agaion
09:39	G0SUB	pandeiro, ok.
09:40	Borkdude	Gosub: where can I see this in the clojure source?
09:40	jsabeaudry_	pandeiro, interleave?
09:40	pandeiro	jsabeaudry_: yeah, i am thinking interleave but the problem is realizing the lazy-seq created by partition-all
09:41	pandeiro	(and also i want to interpose, not interleave, but i can just trim the final whitespace char or something)
09:41	jsabeaudry_	pandeiro, interpose can take a list of separators?
09:41	pandeiro	can it?
09:42	jsabeaudry_	I assumed you knew since you said you want interpose and not interleave
09:42	pandeiro	,(interpose (list \. \. \-) (partition-all 3 "12345678910"))
09:42	clojurebot	((\1 \2 \3) (\. \. \-) (\4 \5 \6) (\. \. \-) (\7 \8 \9) ...)
09:42	pandeiro	hmm yeah getting colder
09:43	pandeiro	here's my favorite so far: ##(mapcat str (partition-all 3 "12345678910") "..- ")
09:43	G0SUB	Borkdude, the RT side of things.
09:43	lazybot	⇒ (\c \l \o \j \u \r \e \. \l \a \n \g \. \L \a \z \y \S \e \q \@ \1 \3 \2 \9 \1 \. \c \l \o \j \u \r \e \. \l \a \n \g \. \L \a \z \y \S \e \q \@ \1 \3 \e \3 \4 \. \c \l \o \j \u \r \e \. \l \a \n \g \. \L \a \z \y \S \e \q \@ \1 \4 \9 \d \7 \- \c \l \o \j \u \r ... https://www.refheap.com/paste/2843
09:44	Borkdude	GOSUB yes, this one? https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java#L548
09:44	G0SUB	Borkdude, yeah
09:44	Borkdude	G0SUB: I don't understand what is happening there, it returns coll.cons?
09:45	Borkdude	G0SUB: so when I go look at PersistentVector.java, there should be a cons method?
09:45	G0SUB	Borkdude, yes. see how cons is implemented for APersistentVector
09:46	G0SUB	Borkdude, https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/APersistentVector.java#L543
09:47	Borkdude	G0SUB: so cons on APersistenVector is implemented as: make a new one with the value appended to the right?
09:48	G0SUB	Borkdude, should be something like that.
09:49	jsabeaudry_	,(apply str (flatten (interleave (partition-all 3 "12345678910") (list \. \. \- \.))))
09:49	clojurebot	"123.456.789-10."
09:49	Borkdude	G0SUB: ok tnx. it's a bit confusing because cons is also something with sequences: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java#L554
09:49	G0SUB	jsabeaudry_, you cheated by punching that extra \. in ;-)
09:50	Borkdude	G0SUB: but I think I understand now
09:50	G0SUB	Borkdude, yes. conj is polymorphic, as you know.
09:50	jsabeaudry_	G0SUB, oops ;)
09:50	G0SUB	Borkdude, and conj ultimately calls cons.
09:50	Borkdude	G0SUB: yes, it's just a bit confusing why collection don't implement conj instead of cons, naming
09:50	pandeiro	,(clojure.string/trim (apply str (map str (map #(apply str %) (partition-all 3 "12345678910")) "..- ")))
09:50	clojurebot	"123.456.789-10"
09:51	pandeiro	yeah both map and interleave shortcircuit on the longer of the seqs, that's the problem
09:51	G0SUB	Borkdude, I think that's because on the concrete collection it's indeed a consing that happens while to the caller it need not be cons as we expect.
09:52	G0SUB	Borkdude, cons to a vector is different from a cons to a seq, for example.
09:52	Borkdude	G0SUB: in terms of java implementation yes, but not from "our sequence side of the world"
09:52	Borkdude	G0SUB: sounds reasonable
09:52	dnolen	Borkdude: conj is the name of the polymorphic function we call in Clojure, cons is how collections implement it (in Java)
09:53	G0SUB	dnolen, +1
09:53	dnolen	Borkdude: fwiw the confusion of name is removed in ClojureScript, conj -> -conj
09:53	Borkdude	,(cons [1 2 3] 0)
09:53	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
09:53	G0SUB	Borkdude, order is different in cons.
09:53	Borkdude	,(cons 0 [1 2 3]) ;; damn ;)
09:53	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3)
09:53	G0SUB	Borkdude, it's all about semantics vs. implementation.
09:54	Borkdude	dnolen: do you mean the concrete collections in cljs have an implementation fn called -conj?
09:54	dnolen	Borkdude: yes, instead of cons as it's called in Java.
09:54	Borkdude	dnolen: great improvement ;)
10:38	clgv	do type hints on protocol methods help the clojure compiler or are they just ignored?
10:45	rhc	clgv: they help
10:45	rhc	clgv: when you call java methods, clojure uses reflection, but with type hints, its a regular java call (just as fast as vanilla java)
10:46	rhc	clgv: its my understand, they're meant to be added to performance sensitive areas.. no necessarily for type correctness
10:50	S11001001	I think clgv might mean one of the numerous other meanings of "help" in this context
10:51	clgv	I meant preventing reflection on call site
10:51	dnolen	clgv: type hints on protocol methods are completely ignored last I checked. If anything they just cause problems.
10:51	clgv	dnolen: ok, thx.
10:52	matthavener	wow, i completely missed "protocol methods" and just read "functions".. need more coffee
10:52	dnolen	clgv: type hints on definterface of course very useful.
10:58	dougs87	what conferences are best for clojure & FP?
10:58	bobry	does anyone know the status of domina? github repo seems abandoned ..
10:59	cgag	strangeloop is lookin good
11:03	si14	why ClojureScript complains about use of functions before their definition?
11:03	si14	looks like 80s to me
11:04	matthavener	si14: doesn't clojure do that as well?
11:05	S11001001	yes
11:05	S11001001	I recently discovered a great benefit to that
11:05	S11001001	prevents people from just sticking functions in random order
11:05	si14	oh, then it's just my ignorance. sorry
11:05	matthavener	si14: you can use (declare fun-name) to work around it
11:05	S11001001	which is what actually happens, not the delightful "logical" order usually imagined
11:05	matthavener	if you have two functions calling each other
11:06	si14	matthavener: yeah, I can, thanks.
11:06	Borkdude	in Clean Code an auther recommends it the other way
11:06	Borkdude	first write the function that calls other functions and define them below
11:06	si14	it's just the consequence of my erlang-ish habit to put "helper" functions to the end of file.
11:06	Borkdude	author
11:07	S11001001	I rather like the other order
11:07	matthavener	me too, but i could just be extremely used to it
11:08	matthavener	the benefit of Borkdude's way is typically the interface to a module is all the "root" functions
11:08	matthavener	so when someone reads the code they're seeing all the functions they'll probably be calling at the top
11:09	Borkdude	what is the reason behind clojure's one pass style again?
11:09	S11001001	the way we have is like introducing lemma(s?) to build towards our principal theorems
11:09	S11001001	macroexpand
11:09	raek	Borkdude: one reason to evaluate namespaces incrementally is macros
11:10	Borkdude	ah, the same in common lisp right?
11:10	raek	they can be used in all following expressions and can use all previous definitions
11:11	S11001001	not quite, but an observation of the trade-offs CL takes to let you write functions in any order, and how that interacts with macros, is worthwhile
11:11	Borkdude	this is nice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSnnfUj1XCQ
11:13	Borkdude	so one pass is not the case in CL?
11:13	S11001001	no, it's quite a lot more complicated
11:14	Borkdude	I guess they way Clojure handles it is the same as it would be if you typed it all yourself in the REPL one by one
11:14	Borkdude	S11001001: ok, I can't remember it
11:16	Borkdude	(meanwhile I'm trying Entity Framework in Visual Studio to work with an Oracle Database…)
11:17	S11001001	that's not to say I don't like the CL rules; I prefer them to clojure's, which do seem to simplify at the expense of not letting you do stuff
11:17	S11001001	CL's rules have the interesting effect that you can compile without loading, for example
11:18	S11001001	it's just that there are a lot of them, and their consequences can confuse occasionally
11:21	Borkdude	pepijndevos: are you presenting smth?
11:22	pepijndevos	Borkdude: no
11:22	pepijndevos	The weather forecast has tempest in it.
11:24	pepijndevos	http://www.weather.com/weather/today/Dusseldorf+GMXX0028:1:GM
11:25	Borkdude	pepijndevos: good luck then (don't like flying)
11:25	TimMc	pepijndevos: I just see t-storms.
11:25	pepijndevos	I like flying, it's the part that comes before it.
11:26	pepijndevos	TimMc: What is T-storms?
11:26	TimMc	thuderstorms
11:26	Borkdude	pepijndevos: yeah, the waiting, checking in, pff
11:26	TimMc	thunderstorms, even
11:26	clgv	pepijndevos: you are flying from düsseldorf?
11:26	pepijndevos	TimMc: Oh, is that different from a tempest?
11:26	pepijndevos	clgv: yea, closer and cheaper than schiphol.
11:27	TimMc	I never hear people talk about tempests. I don't really know what they're supposed to be, beyond a strong windstorm.
11:27	pepijndevos	als, smaller, so less of the waiting and hurying
11:27	TimMc	windy thunderstorm, maybe?
11:27	uvtc	storms brew, tempests are in teapots. (!)
11:27	pepijndevos	TimMc: afaik, it's the same, but borrowd from french
11:27	TimMc	uvtc: !
11:28	pepijndevos	TimMc: It has a betetr sound to it that thunderstorm, imo
11:28	TimMc	So tempests... steep?
11:28	pepijndevos	steep?
11:28	TimMc	like a tea bag
11:28	uvtc	TimMc, ha ha ha. :)
11:32	pepijndevos	tempête: http://www.cinoa.org/gfx/60333.jpg
11:32	kima	hello #clojure
11:32	uvtc	hi kima
11:33	kima	I'm relatively new to clojure and used it for a few toy-mid-size projects and now i want to be also a part of the clojure community I guess this is the right place to start
11:38	S11001001	#clojure is also good if you don't want to be part of the community :)
11:38	kima	ok :)
11:41	kima	i'm reading PAIP now and am translating the code to clojure would anyone be interested when I write that in blogposts like onlisp to clojure
11:47	kilon	#lisp deleted #clojure added, a new chapter has begun :D
11:48	clgv	:D
11:48	kilon	besides emacs , what kinds of IDE works well with clojure ?
11:48	clgv	CCW
11:48	kilon	first time i hear this, googling
11:48	clgv	=> counterclockwise
11:49	TimMc	kilon: Vim, apparently.
11:49	TimMc	Well, not an IDE...
11:49	kilon	ah clojure works with vim , thats nice to know
11:49	cgag	i remember trying to set up vimclojure with nailgun and it being pretty painful
11:50	kilon	no i do consider emacs and vim ides with the right extensions
11:50	kilon	but I am more a GUI dude
11:50	kilon	and recently trying Pharo and Squeak (Smalltalk) ruined me forever :D
11:51	gfredericks	are there any clojure libs similar to the ruby vrc lib, for recording and playing back http in tests?
11:51	Borkdude	(meanwhile visualstudio/entityframework/oracle combination is driving me mad)
11:51	Borkdude	kilon: Eclipse + CCW
11:51	uvtc	kilon, ccw is an Eclipse plug-in.
11:52	uvtc	Incidentally, it's interesting that not many editors support smart-lispy style indenting.
11:52	kilon	Borkdude: uvtc oh sorry guys did not realise thanks, I kinda like Eclipse, good experience with pyDev
11:52	TimMc	I've heard some talk about IntelliJ being really good for Clojure.
11:52	kilon	and the added advantage is that Eclipse is made with Java
11:52	kilon	Do I dare assume that Clojure can script Eclipse realitivly easy ? like jython can for pydev
11:53	uvtc	kilon, someone did a screencast recently using Eclipse with Clojure ...
11:53	kilon	marvelous
11:53	uvtc	Ah. Here we are: http://cemerick.com/2012/05/02/starting-clojure/
11:54	kilon	I know it suppose to work in theory, Clojure running on VM and being java bytecode , but practice has its own suprises
11:54	TimMc	Oh, wow! It's a Clojure how-to on the web that isn't years old!
11:55	kilon	that link has my favorite 2 words "live coding" :D
11:55	kilon	thanks uvtc and everyone else
11:55	Borkdude	kilon: it's relatively easy and it plays nice with leiningen now as well
11:56	kilon	leiningen is ?
11:56	Borkdude	kilon: the build tool for clojure
11:56	dan`b	I wonder if anyone is doing live coding with TDD
11:56	kilon	ah i see, something like ant and cmake then , i assume
11:56	uvtc	kilon, I wrote this, maybe it might be helpful: http://www.unexpected-vortices.com/clojure/brief-beginners-guide/
11:57	bderooms	can someone check whether I made a mistake on the transaction here? http://pastebin.com/CHxrGFd7
11:57	Borkdude	kilon: there is a leiningen plugin for eclipse that pulls in dependencies and puts the on the project's classpath
11:57	kilon	marvelous
11:57	Borkdude	kilon: also you can connect from the console to a running repl in eclipse
11:57	dan`b	leiningen is not just for building but also for managing external dependencies (3rd party libraries etc)
11:57	bderooms	if I run the whole application on a file of 10 million lins now and then the program erros with 'max retry reached'
11:57	kilon	uvtc: bookmarked, and i am watching the screencast
11:58	Borkdude	leiningen is the emacs of building tools ;)
11:58	kilon	that powerful ? wow
11:58	Borkdude	maybe I'm exaggerating
11:58	Borkdude	but it can do a lot of stuff
11:59	kilon	is it similar to Cake ? I heard that when watching a video on Overtone (Clojure library for Supercollider)
11:59	TimMc	kilon: Cake merged into lein.
11:59	kilon	oh
12:00	kilon	will certainly look into all that , thanks guys
12:00	TimMc	They were quite similar.
12:01	kilon	I was not wrong ? thats pleasantly surprising :D
12:03	kilon	dan`b: replying to your question, in Squeak / Pharo 90% of the coding is live TDD coding
12:04	kilon	and I would like to do something similar with clojure too if i can
12:04	S11001001	checkouts, I miss checkouts
12:04	kilon	I hope Clojure debugger is as powerful as Squeak's/Pharo's/ Common lisp
12:04	dnolen	kilon: fat chance
12:05	alexyakushev	Have anyone tried to integrate non-text resource (e.g. images) into a lein-newnew template?
12:05	kilon	dnolen: fat chance means, like or unlikely ?
12:05	kilon	english is not my mother tongue
12:05	TimMc	Very unlikely.
12:05	kilon	oh
12:05	kilon	:(
12:05	kilon	oh well
12:05	clgv	kilon: you have some of the basic debugging as for java
12:05	dnolen	kilon: unlikely. Clojure is hosted (JVM, JS) so in general must rely on the host debugging infrastructure.
12:06	kilon	well there is a way
12:06	kilon	Field
12:06	clgv	kilon: breakpoints and watchlist and variables in scope
12:06	kilon	it supports Clojure too
12:06	kilon	but yeah , no powerful debnugger there too
12:07	kilon	but no problemo
12:07	dnolen	kilon: which isn't to say tools can't provide a good "reasoning" experience, but I don't think you'll find CL or Smalltalk level of debugging anytime soon. Maybe one day if somebody really spends time on it.
12:07	kilon	Clojure offers already enough
12:07	kilon	yeah i know those things look simple in practice and complicated in design
12:09	alexyakushev	OK, is it possible that clojure.java.io/resource crumbles non-text resources (if argument provided has an URL type)?
12:09	Borkdude	unbelievable.. a bug in visual studio caused a setting which I could provide through a properties view not being saved into the underlying xml
12:09	Borkdude	this cost me another hour
12:10	alexyakushev	As far as I can see, the implementation of Coercions protocol for URLs does some string replacement magic which might not be very good for PNGs:) Of course it is magic and I don't understand what it does but still
12:10	TimMc	Borkdude: Let's yell at ibdknox about it! :-P
12:11	Borkdude	TimMc: let's hope light table will be better ;)
12:11	TimMc	alexyakushev: Link to source?
12:11	Borkdude	first some rest (installing Visual Studio SP1...)
12:12	uvtc	Borkdude, not sure if (first some rest) is legal syntax.
12:12	uvtc	;)
12:13	alexyakushev	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/java/io.clj, line 53
12:14	Borkdude	,(first (some rest []))
12:14	clojurebot	nil
12:15	uvtc	Borkdude, teehehe. :)
12:15	mwillhite	hey all, trying to figure out the syntax here:
12:15	mwillhite	(defn from-sql-date
12:15	mwillhite	[#^java.sql.Date sql-date]
12:15	mwillhite	(from-long (.getTime sql-date)))
12:16	mwillhite	what is the #^java.sql.Date thing doing?
12:16	alexyakushev	mwillhite: it's a type tag
12:16	TimMc	mwillhite: That's a type hint.
12:16	technomancy	alexyakushev: you should be able to safely call input-stream on an io/resource
12:16	alexyakushev	*hint, right
12:16	TimMc	An old-style one, specifically.
12:16	mwillhite	does it have any impact on the argument?
12:16	mwillhite	what if I pass in something not of that type?
12:16	uvtc	TimMc, what's the modern style?
12:16	TimMc	Drop the #.
12:17	alexyakushev	technomancy: I'm calling io/reader on io/resource (just like in lein-newnew)
12:17	mwillhite	cool thanks
12:17	TimMc	mwillhite: It doesn't have an impact on the function, just on the .getTime callsite
12:17	alexyakushev	technomancy: but for some reason in the end my PNGs from resources are not PNGs anymore
12:17	technomancy	alexyakushev: reader will not work on binary data
12:17	technomancy	it turns everything into strings
12:17	technomancy	you need input-stream
12:18	TimMc	mwillhite: A cast to Date will be inserted at the location where .getTime is used instead of JVM reflection calls.
12:19	pandeiro	anyone familiar with the java tools for converting Date objects into localized strings?
12:19	alexyakushev	technomancy: Great, thanks. I guess this could also be a good thing to add in lein-newnew, what do you think?
12:19	TimMc	mwillhite: Things like ^long do something different -- they allow (under some circumstances) the use of primitives in function calls and local bindings.
12:19	uvtc	TimMc, what is ^java.sql.Date short for? Something like ^{:type java.sql.Date} ?
12:19	TimMc	uvtc: s/:type/:tag/, yes
12:20	uvtc	TimMc, Ah, :tag. Thank you.
12:20	technomancy	alexyakushev: add what?
12:20	TimMc	That's probably where alexyakushev got "tag hint". :-)
12:20	technomancy	input-stream is available
12:20	technomancy	oh, you mean for documentation?
12:20	alexyakushev	technomancy: I mean that the default (renderer ...) functions calls io/reader by default
12:21	technomancy	well you have to have strings for templating to work
12:21	alexyakushev	technomancy: to be more specific, I mean the renderer function from leiningen.new.templates
12:22	technomancy	templating doesn't work with binary data
12:22	alexyakushev	technomancy: yes, but there is a feature that you could just copy the file (by not providing the second argument)
12:23	technomancy	sure, but that's built-in to clojure already
12:23	alexyakushev	technomancy: I thought it would work for any kind of data since it is not altered in any way
12:23	technomancy	though it should be better documented
12:27	alexyakushev	technomancy: I think you are right that new.templates module is for templates but... What would change if io/reader in `renderer` was changed to io/input-stream? This line only is called when no data is provided, so the file should be just copied as is.
12:28	technomancy	oh, I didn't realize renderer already had a 1-argument arity
12:28	alexyakushev	Yes, exactly what I was pointing at:)
12:29	technomancy	gotcha.
12:29	technomancy	good point, feel free to open a ticket for that.
12:30	technomancy	arguably it's not a renderer if it just copies verbatim, but if that arity already exists we might as well make the most of it
12:31	alexyakushev	technomancy: Thank you, I would. And since we are already speaking about new.templates would you mind one more question?
12:31	technomancy	sure thing
12:32	Raynos	why does clojurebot annoy me with its pings
12:32	alexyakushev	technomancy: I actually had do copy the `renderer` function into my project and modify it since it searches for resources in the hardcoded path "leiningen/new/"
12:32	Raynos	I guess I can just leave the channel :D
12:32	Raynos	goodbye clojure
12:32	TimMc	Raynos: Who are you and what have you done with Raynes?
12:33	alexyakushev	technomancy: since my resource I'd like to create the new project with contain more than just source code, I've put it into different folder
12:33	TimMc	(and why do you have a shitty IRC client that puts NOTICE above MSG?)
12:33	alexyakushev	technomancy: does it make sense to make the resource in path in `renderer` customizable?
12:34	technomancy	alexyakushev: I'm not sure I understand. Why does whether you're rendering more than just source code affect the path you use?
12:34	technomancy	do you mean the resources will be used by something other than Leiningen?
12:35	alexyakushev	No, I just don't want to put the resources into src/leiningen/new/... folder because I don't have anything else there
12:36	alexyakushev	And it would be a bit confusing to keep resources (which are not only source files, but also some XMLs, PNGs etc.) in the source folder
12:36	technomancy	you can put them in resources/leiningen/new
12:36	technomancy	once the jar is generated they'll all be in the same place
12:38	alexyakushev	Hm, that sounds like a solution, thank you
12:38	technomancy	sure
13:09	brainproxy	so cool that lein repl keeps history across sessions
13:09	brainproxy	wish the nodejs and coffee repls did that
13:11	TimMc	I think rlwrap is the thing that does that.
13:13	batasrki	is there a reason why lein repl doesn't confirm matching parentheses in ubuntu. It does so in os x
13:13	uvtc	batasrki, works for me in Ubuntu (using lein 2)
13:14	batasrki	ah, lein 2
13:14	batasrki	I've lein 1.7.1
13:14	batasrki	ok, cool, I'll try lein 2
13:14	banseljaj	batasrki: lein 1,7 owrks for me in ubuntu
13:15	foxdonut	perhaps a terminal issue?
13:16	banseljaj	Possibly.
13:16	batasrki	I'm running zsh
13:16	banseljaj	I am using bash
13:16	batasrki	more precisely, oh-my-zsh
13:18	uvtc	batasrki, I'm using bash as well.
13:34	gtrak	how do you kill swank after a clojure-jack-in?
13:37	tmciver	gtrak: one way is to kill the swank buffer.
13:42	llasram	gtrak: I can't seem to figure out the actual command name, but in the REPL you can hit , on a fresh line, then enter the command 'quit' at the minibuffer prompt
13:42	tmciver	llasram: that quits slime not swank.
13:44	llasram	Are there further implications to quitting SLIME? Because it definitely also kills the swank pracess
13:44	llasram	process even
13:44	p_l	llasram: depends on whether swank was started by slime or not
13:45	llasram	Fair enough. In this case, gtrak specifically mentioned clojure-jack-in, so...
13:46	p_l	take what I'm saying with a grain of salt, though - I haven't used such ancient version of SLIME in a looong time
13:46	tmciver	llasram: hmm, so it does. I thought I've seen cases where it didn't, but maybe I just killed the repl buffer and then reconnected to the running swank with 'slime-connect'.
13:54	jweiss	I notice there are nice options for lein repls, like :init-ns and :init (to set the initial namespace and run some arbitrary expression on startup). What about swank? Is this possible when running lein swank?
13:54	jweiss	the repl options appear to be ignored
13:56	llasram	jweiss: Last I looked, the closest you could get was sending over some eval forms in a function hanging off of `slime-connected-hook`
13:56	jweiss	llasram: doh that kinda sucks, that would not be project specific :)
13:57	jweiss	ah well, right now my users have to type (load "bootstrap") which isn't so bad
13:57	jweiss	but thought i could even get rid of that
13:57	technomancy	you can load code in swank, but I haven't figured out how to set the initial namespace
13:58	jweiss	technomancy: i could just use 'user', how do i load code?
13:59	technomancy	jweiss: I don't remember; maybe :repl-init
14:00	jweiss	technomancy: the github page is a little confusing - https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/preview/sample.project.clj is that a sample for 1.x or 2.0?
14:00	technomancy	jweiss: the preview branch is 2.x
14:01	jweiss	technomancy: the master README links to the preview sample
14:01	jweiss	so that is why i was confused
14:02	technomancy	yes, master is 2.x as well
14:02	technomancy	I'll add a note at the top of sample.project.clj though
14:02	KirinDave	Hrrm. I hate to ask a specific framework question here… but...
14:02	KirinDave	Anyone here using Storm and clojure and transactional topologies?
14:03	technomancy	KirinDave: it can't be worse than inconsistent use of ellipses.
14:03	edw	I believe there's a #storm channel, though I imagine many of the users may not be Clojure developers.
14:03	technomancy	=)
14:03	KirinDave	technomancy: Bitch to colloquy, brah. ;)
14:03	technomancy	nah, Colloquy's got enough people yelling at it as it is
14:04	KirinDave	When OSX has a decent irc client somewhere anytime, let me know.
14:04	KirinDave	Basically they're all terrible. Colloquy's brand of terrible is at least manageable.
14:04	dnolen	KirinDave: I don't see nathanmarz around but you might want to check on #cascalog as well
14:04	KirinDave	/digression. My apologies.
14:05	technomancy	just messing with you =)
14:05	edw	technomancy: I've tried to stop using ellipses since considering the way their presence in original material complicates using them to indicate ellided passages. People used to write "The road to hell...good intentions." But now we need to write "The road to hell [...] good intentions." Or something similar. Chaois.
14:05	edw	s/Chaois/Chaos./
14:06	KirinDave	Chaois is the new French word for chaos. Use it in France or be fined and jailed.
14:08	llasram	edw: So when you quote someone saying "[...]" and need to elide a portion, do you bump up the level of [] nesting on all existing uses and introduce your own as "[...]", or do you pick the next level of nesting and use that for your own elision?
14:08	llasram	edw: "The road to hell [[...]] good [...]"
14:08	muhoo	shit's getting esoteric up in here.
14:20	Guest84632	Hi, would you please tell me why I'm getting this runtime error? http://pastie.org/3956864
14:21	Chiron_	Hi, would you please tell me why I'm getting this runtime error? http://pastie.org/3956864
14:21	nDuff	Chiron_: put the finally just inside the try, rather than nested inside a let
14:22	Chiron_	any more idiomatic way to code this function?
14:22	hiredman	Chiron_: :\| there are 4-5 errors easily seen
14:22	Chiron_	sorry, still learning :)
14:22	hiredman	calling server-socket as a function in the finally
14:23	hiredman	binding server-socket to nil for no reason in the let
14:23	hiredman	you don't need the when, they will be bound to something in the finally
14:24	nDuff	Chiron_: you might also consider with-open to force the close to eventually happen.
14:24	nDuff	Chiron_: ...should be both more readable and idiomatic than the try/finally thing.
14:25	nDuff	(granted, with-open is a macro that uses try/finally itself, but readability counts)
14:26	batasrki	why does clojure even have try/finally? That seems...wrong, somehow
14:27	Chiron_	thanks for help, will try (no pun intended :D) the suggested changes
14:27	gtrak	batasrki: clojure integrates with the host lang
14:27	pipeline	even if there was no real use for try/finally in clojure itself it would be important for java interop
14:29	batasrki	OK, so really, this is a misuse of a language feature
14:30	gtrak	misuse?
14:30	bhenry	ibdknox: ping
14:30	bhenry	anyone else who might know: is there an implicit do here? https://gist.github.com/1d2f02a1a4683879c42a
14:30	bhenry	it doesn't seem to clear the session
14:31	S11001001	unwind-protection (and rewind-protection in scheme's case) are well-established in many systems long preceding java
14:33	Chiron_	It is better now?
14:33	Chiron_	(defn health [request]
14:33	Chiron_	(with-open [server-socket (ServerSocket. nimbus-port) datagram-socket (DatagramSocket. nimbus-port)]
14:33	Chiron_	(.setReuseAddress server-socket true)
14:33	Chiron_	(.setReuseAddress datagram-socket true)
14:33	Chiron_	true))
14:34	gtrak	Chiron_: use a pastebin like refheap
14:34	Chiron_	ok, sorry
14:36	Chiron_	it is better now? http://pastie.org/3956931
14:38	S11001001	Chiron_: assuming you're going to add a parameter being a function to be called with your sockets
14:39	Chiron_	health-2 is a ring handler
14:40	gfredericks	so there's no built in data reader for byte-arrays yet?
14:40	gfredericks	oh wait there's the defaults map
14:40	gfredericks	I can find out for myself.
15:04	p_l	puchacz: here too? :)
15:06	puchacz	p_l: just watching now :)
15:06	p_l	heh.
15:07	puchacz	I sense the potential, but transition from CL is not straightforward one week of reading howtos....
15:07	p_l	I think I'm giving up my current clojure adventure. Maybe after I upgrade my PC few generations forward ;)
15:08	batasrki	puchacz: I bought programming clojure and joy of clojure books; Also, I'm doing the problems on 4clojure.com
15:08	batasrki	still not straightforward, but easier
15:09	puchacz	batasrki: sure, but it is a new programming language, not common lisp with slightly different flavour
15:09	puchacz	and has its own ecosystem of libraries too
15:10	p_l	yeah, and there's no compatibility with curret SLIME
15:10	nDuff	(?)
15:11	batasrki	puchacz: I guess it depends where you're coming from. My exposure to lisp/scheme is little schemer books and SICP
15:11	p_l	nDuff: SLIME used with Clojure is few years out of date
15:11	batasrki	otherwise, I've been an OO programmer my whole career
15:11	nDuff	p_l: ahh, missed that "current" was the key word there.
15:12	nDuff	(as SLIME is quite certainly the best thing Clojure has going right now; I switched over to nREPL+CCW to bypass some compatibility issues, and it's considerably more painful)
15:12	ibdknox	what do you like about SLIME?
15:12	p_l	well, I can't use SLIME with Clojure, because I'm not willing to do crazy reloading to keep two different slime versions
15:13	p_l	ibdknox: workflow, speed
15:13	ibdknox	explain?
15:13	matthavener	two different slime versions?
15:13	ibdknox	I've watched people using emacs and the only thing I see used regularly is evaling a file or an expression
15:13	ibdknox	is there something more there?
15:13	puchacz	ibdknox: google for some slime videos
15:13	p_l	matthavener: Clojure requires an ancient slime version which uses old protocol
15:14	p_l	ibdknox: it's the practice of it. I test something quickly in REPL, write code in files, etc.
15:14	puchacz	go to definition, sensible autocomplete, who calls, who macroexpands, debugger, object presentation/inspection
15:14	p_l	it "flows"
15:14	p_l	and yes, M-. etc.
15:14	p_l	debugger
15:14	p_l	well, debugger is borked with java anyway, I suspect
15:16	p_l	but given that my current try at clojure was related to a project that is in CL, having to disconnect from CL to work with Clojure was jarring
15:17	ibdknox	I was just curious if there was something specific to SLIME
15:17	ibdknox	it doesn't sound like there really is
15:17	ibdknox	just that it has been nicely honed over the years :)
15:18	p_l	ibdknox: I can't explain it, it requires showing :)
15:18	p_l	and well... Clojure isn't best-supported
15:18	jweiss	there's got to be a better way to call a fn signature like [& {:keys [a b]}] with a map, other than using (apply myfn (apply (concat (seq mymap)))) right
15:18	jweiss	?
15:18	ibdknox	Yeah, I've only seen it in the context of Clojurians
15:18	llasram	screen cast?
15:19	emezeske	jweiss: Nope, that's why functions that destructure rest maps are annoying.
15:19	jweiss	emezeske: doh, oh well
15:19	ibdknox	we should stop using them
15:19	ibdknox	I still maintain unrolling options is an anti-pattern
15:19	emezeske	Yeah, it is really more convenient overall to just pass in a map
15:19	llasram	ibdknox: Unrolling options?
15:20	ibdknox	(defn foo [& {:as args}] ...)
15:20	ibdknox	so that you can write (foo :a 4 :v 6)
15:20	ibdknox	it looks like that would be nice
15:20	ibdknox	but it breaks in a number of cases where you want to thread things
15:20	TimMc	~mapply
15:20	clojurebot	You could (defn mapply [f & args] (apply f (apply concat (butlast args) (last args))))
15:20	emezeske	Yeah.. it's not much harder to write (foo {:a 4 :v 6}), and then you can bring all of the tools to bear on that map arg
15:20	TimMc	^ but you shouldn't have to.
15:21	ibdknox	that's busted :p
15:21	ibdknox	I shouldn't have to use another function
15:21	rkz	who's going to EuroClojure tomorrow?
15:21	llasram	Ah, ok. ibdknox, emezeske, that makes sense. immediately adopts as a best-practice
15:22	ibdknox	lol
15:24	llasram	Real keyword argument are nice, and I've been thought occasionally about the "best" way to fake them, but just now it seems obvious -- just don't
15:24	llasram	s,been,,
15:24	ibdknox	it's not worth adding the complexity to save two characters
15:24	ibdknox	that's all you get
15:24	ibdknox	lol
15:25	gtrak	i just think it looks really awkward to have (func-call :arg1 val1 :arg2 val2)
15:26	gtrak	(func-call {:arg1 val1 :arg2 val2}) isn't as vague
15:26	ibdknox	me too, though I think that firmly in the realm of personal preference
15:26	ibdknox	is*
15:27	gtrak	we should personally prefer simplicity
15:27	ibdknox	hahaa
15:27	ibdknox	it's true :)
15:29	matthavener	hmm, what about the implications of forcing (func-call {:arg1 val1}) on (partial func-call {:arg1 val1}) ?
15:30	gtrak	ah, interesting, you could have a partial-merge instead
15:30	solussd	is there a clojurescript function that converts a map to an associative-array?
15:30	matthavener	basically breaks it, and now you have two classes of functions for two classes of partial, like you're saying gtrak
15:30	dnolen_	solussd: there is not - and I assume you mean js object when you say associative array.
15:31	solussd	dnolen_: yeah
15:31	solussd	dnolen_: so how does one hand javascript a map?
15:31	dnolen_	solussd: in whatever way is suitable for you application.
15:32	dnolen_	your
15:32	pandeiro	solussd: https://gist.github.com/1658431
15:32	gtrak	matthavener, I think that's probably alright, since you'd have control over all your functions
15:32	solussd	I have an ^:export ed function that I'd like to return a javascript object from…
15:33	solussd	pandeiro: thanks!
15:33	pandeiro	actually i think .strobj is deprecated
15:33	dnolen_	solussd: pandeiro: relying on .strobj is not recommended.
15:33	solussd	:(
15:33	pandeiro	dnolen_: do you have a better example for the general use-case map->obj?
15:33	dnolen_	call seq on the map if you want to iterate kvs.
15:33	gtrak	matthavener: and you could bridge it by partitioning
15:33	dnolen_	pandeiro: I do not
15:34	matthavener	gtrak: what do you mean?
15:34	pandeiro	solussd: https://github.com/fogus/himera/blob/master/src/cljs/himera/client/repl.cljs#L16
15:34	matthavener	gtrak: like (my-fun {:a 1} {:b 2}) is the same as (my-fun {:a 1 :b 2}) ?
15:35	solussd	pandeiro: well that's simple. thanks
15:35	gtrak	matthavener: kinda... you could have (named-partial :a1 :b2) that uses partition to build a map, you can make your glue complicated without making the functions themselves complicated that way
15:35	solussd	doesn't work for deeper data structures though..
15:36	gtrak	:a1 v1 :a2 v2 I mean
15:36	pandeiro	yeah i realize that
15:36	solussd	guess I can add it to the first one
15:36	pandeiro	right, it seems pretty essential for interop to have that fn
15:37	emezeske	matthavener: #(func-call (merge {:arg1 val1} %)) is not that much worse than partial, and it handles duplicate keys gracefully
15:39	emezeske	&(let [f (fn [{:keys [a]}] a)] (#(f (merge {:a 1} %)) {:a 2})
15:39	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading, starting at line 1
15:39	emezeske	Oops
15:39	emezeske	&(let [f (fn [& {:keys [a]}] a)] ((partial f :a 1) :a 2))
15:39	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: :a
15:39	emezeske	&(let [f (fn [& {:keys [a]}] a)] ((partial f :a 1) :a 2))
15:39	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: :a
15:40	emezeske	matthavener: ^
15:40	nDuff	Anyone have a feel for typical turnaround on moderator reviews for posts to clojure-tools?
15:40	clojurebot	forget clojurescript is Chouser's baby
15:40	emezeske	I am doing really bad at copy/paste today
15:40	emezeske	&(let [f (fn [{:keys [a]}] a)] (#(f (merge {:a 1} %)) {:a 2}))
15:40	lazybot	⇒ 2
15:41	matthavener	emezeske: yeah i was just pointing out that if you have some opaque function and want to add some arg to it, then you'd have two ways: merge the map or use partial
15:41	matthavener	i don't know enough to say if either way is wrong or better :)
15:42	emezeske	Well if it's unknown, merge is much better, because you can't know if adding :a 2 to the arguments will break things or not
15:42	emezeske	Whereas with merge, it will work, and the semantics are obvious
15:42	gfredericks	what's the literal for ##(type (into-array Byte/TYPE []))?
15:42	lazybot	⇒ [B
15:43	amalloy	ain't no such thang
15:43	amalloy	&(Class/forName "[B") is closest, i suppose
15:43	lazybot	⇒ [B
15:44	gtrak	,Byte/TYPE
15:44	clojurebot	byte
15:44	hyPiRion	Not exactly the same there.
15:44	hyPiRion	&(type (byte-array 0))
15:44	lazybot	⇒ [B
15:45	gfredericks	so if I want to define a #bytes data reader, and I want a function for printing things as well, am I supposed to define print-dup for byte arrays?
15:45	gtrak	,[B
15:45	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
15:45	gtrak	,\[B
15:45	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unsupported character: \[B>
15:45	TimMc	&(class (java.lang.reflect.Array/newInstance Byte/TYPE 0))
15:45	lazybot	⇒ [B
15:45	TimMc	&(class (java.lang.reflect.Array/newInstance Byte/TYPE 15))
15:45	lazybot	⇒ [B
15:46	TimMc	&(class (java.lang.reflect.Array/newInstance Byte/TYPE (int-array 15)))
15:46	lazybot	⇒ [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[B
15:46	llasram	gfredericks: You can inject a literal reference to the class object with the read-time eval reader macro: #=(java.lang.Class/forName "[B")
15:46	llasram	That works for multi-methods
15:47	gfredericks	ah ha
15:47	alfborge	I'm doing some screen scraping using enlive-html and for one of the things I'm extracting I believe the best tool is a plain regex. Is there a good way to do that given a seq of nodes?
15:47	gfredericks	print-dup is unideal though since it prints normal things all funny :/
15:47	llasram	For protocols you can use extend-type with just the normal compile-time top-level evaluation of (Class/forName "[B")
15:48	alfborge	As in, I have the result of a (html-resource input) and I want to run a regexp against input however I don't have input anymore.
15:49	llasram	Now that I think about it, the latter should probably work fine for multimethods too... I think it was just extend-protocol which needs the reader literal, because it's explicitly looking for lits vs other things to identify sections for particular types
15:50	llasram	gfredericks: Any reason not just extend `print-method` ?
16:03	solussd	can I pass a javascript function to a clojurescript function and then call it from clojurescript?
16:04	alfborge	Speaking of enlive: Anyone know a way to join this into one selector: (select (select r [:table :td :div]) [(attr-contains :title "flummoxed")])
16:05	Chousuke	solussd: I don't see why not :/
16:05	pandeiro	solussd: yep
16:06	pandeiro	i just tried it on himera, define a javascript function in the console and call it at the repl
16:06	Chousuke	it seems to me clojurescript interop is a lot better integrated than clojure interop
16:06	solussd	ok, trying to call a javascript function passed as an argument to a clojurescript function that calls the server using the fetch libs fm/remote macro-- appears that my callback is never called.. :/
16:07	Chousuke	less impedance mismatch I suppose.
16:07	Chousuke	solussd: is "this" involved? :P it's always problematic
16:07	solussd	Chousuke: no
16:08	pandeiro	solussd: i had a fun time trying to use fetch as well, it had to do with how the remotes are stored by key, can't remember specifics
16:11	alfborge	Answering my own question: (select r [:table :td #{:div (attr-contains :title "flummoxed")}])
16:11	nDuff	What's the counterclockwise equivalent to ctrl+right in paredit? That is, if I have "(foo (bar\|) baz)" (cursor being the \|), and I want "(foo (bar\| baz))", is there a keybinding to do that?
16:12	TimMc	slurp-sexp-right
16:14	nDuff	TimMc: I'm not seeing that in the counterclockwise keybinding docs (http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/wiki/EditorKeyBindingsFeatures)
16:15	TimMc	Sorry, I was just giving the name for it.
16:15	nDuff	ahh; graci.
16:15	nDuff	(incidentally, it's not a name that gets the most work-safe Google results, even when combined with "counterclockwise")
16:15	TimMc	snrk
16:16	TimMc	Well, does barf-sexp-right give less-sketchy results?
16:17	hsteak	hello
16:17	TimMc	nDuff: Huh. I guess it isn't there? I regard it as a pretty basic gesture...
16:18	TimMc	You'd have to compose at least 3 existing gestures to get the same effect.
16:18	TimMc	s/compose/sequence/
16:19	hsteak	i have a small issue, i am looking for a way to do For i, j in R x R: if i != j function(i, j), without doing the symetry. for example : say R = (a, b, c), a want to get Res = ((a, b), (a, c), (b, c))
16:19	hsteak	any idea?
16:20	TimMc	hsteak: (for [i (range 10) j (range 0 i)] ...)
16:20	raek	hsteak: ##(let [r [:a :b :c]] (for [i r, j r, :when (not= i j)] (vector i j)))
16:20	lazybot	⇒ ([:a :b] [:a :c] [:b :a] [:b :c] [:c :a] [:c :b])
16:21	hsteak	TimMc, raek thx
16:21	TimMc	raek: Not quite.
16:21	TimMc	[:b :c] conflicts with [:c :b]
16:21	raek	&(let [r [:a :b :c]] (for [i r, j r, :when (neg? (compare i j))] (vector i j)))
16:21	lazybot	⇒ ([:a :b] [:a :c] [:b :c])
16:21	raek	there :)
16:21	hyPiRion	It's already implemented in clojure.math.combinatorics.
16:21	TimMc	nice
16:22	S11001001	,(doc tails)
16:22	clojurebot	Excuse me?
16:22	matthavener	hyPiRion: i was waiting for that :)
16:22	llasram	##(do (use '[clojure.math.combinatorics :only [combinations]]) (combinations [:a :b :c] 2))
16:22	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.math.combinatorics
16:22	llasram	Oh, of course
16:33	pandeiro	ibdknox: something about SLIME i like - at the end of the day, I have a buffer with everything i did at the repl, which i can save and revisit or grep when i need to
16:33	ibdknox	that doesn't seem specific to SLIME to me
16:34	ibdknox	out of curiosity do you eval from a buffer or actually use a repl?
16:35	p_l	ibdknox: in CL it depends what I want to do
16:35	pandeiro	ibdknox: no not saying it's slime specific, just an aspect of the workflow i like.. i eval from buffers and at the repl
16:35	p_l	usually I eval from repl, but code in buffer ;)
16:35	technomancy	ibdknox: apart from the debugger the main nontrivial thing I miss from slime when I use lein repl is the inspector, which is a hyperlinked object pretty-printer/browser
16:35	p_l	(that is, I use "compile last expression/defun")
16:36	ibdknox	technomancy: I see
16:36	technomancy	jump-to-definition is definitely my most commonly-used command other than compile, but that's trivial to implement
16:36	ibdknox	technomancy: is that basically just the output of pprint that is clickable?
16:37	technomancy	ibdknox: no, it's much more capable; it works on classes, methods, interfaces, and constructors too
16:37	p_l	ibdknox: another thing I like about SLIME is presentations - something lifted from LispM/CLIM
16:37	ibdknox	technomancy: for Java stuff?
16:37	pandeiro	technomancy: can i use that to inspect a java class? how do i do that?
16:37	technomancy	ibdknox: yeah, in 90% of cases it can replace javadoc
16:37	technomancy	pandeiro: C-c S-i
16:37	ibdknox	p_l: presentations?
16:39	p_l	ibdknox: when you have something returned in REPL, it's a presentation, not text - you can copy it around and it will contain an actual reference to the object
16:39	p_l	(might be a weak ref)
16:39	ibdknox	oh neat
16:39	jhulten	Hey. If I have a vector in a ref and I want to empty it how would I do that?
16:40	ibdknox	probably less useful in CLJ since you're working with values
16:45	jhulten	ref-set … got it.
16:48	ibdknox	just gathering information :)
16:48	technomancy	I have a feeling an inspector could be mostly implemented as an nrepl middleware so it'd be usable from a variety of clients
16:48	ibdknox	if you're around me for any length of time you'll find out that I'm very inquisitive
16:49	Chiron_	Any Clojure web framework that let us pass objects/structures to a template to render? you know just like Django, SpringMVC ..
16:49	ibdknox	comb
16:49	ibdknox	or mustache
16:49	ibdknox	http://github.com/weavejester/comb
16:50	ibdknox	or https://github.com/davidsantiago/stencil
16:50	nDuff	Doesn't enlive also work that way?
16:50	nDuff	https://github.com/cgrand/enlive
16:50	technomancy	no, enlive enforces view/logic separation
16:51	ibdknox	enlive is also not actively maintained :p
16:51	ibdknox	comb is like 60 lines
16:51	ibdknox	so it doesn't need to be :)
16:51	metajack	enlive isn't maintained? what? i figured it was just "mature"
16:52	ibdknox	lol
16:52	technomancy	stencil seems nice, but I would hesitate to recommend the logic-in-views approach to a newcomer
16:52	Raynes	I wouldn't say it isn't maintained.
16:53	Raynes	I had a bug a while back and cgrand fixed it.
16:53	ibdknox	technomancy: hm? stencil is mustache no logic
16:53	cemerick	surely comparing comb and enlive is a category error.
16:53	technomancy	ibdknox: right; I would recommend stencil but not comb.
16:53	Chiron_	technomancy: true for logic-in-views. I'm a heavy JSTL user :)
16:53	ibdknox	yeah stencil is great :)
16:54	technomancy	I mean I'm glad comb is there; sometimes you need it.
16:54	ibdknox	yeah
16:54	ibdknox	also it's just so damn clever :p
16:54	technomancy	or so I'm told =)
16:54	cemerick	technomancy: BTW, you made me think of Clojure while watching Les Miserables last night. :-P
16:54	technomancy	cemerick: Javert?
16:55	cemerick	technomancy: yup
16:56	technomancy	ok, PSA: if anyone ports slime's inspector to nrepl, they have to call it Javert.
16:56	technomancy	that is all.
16:56	zerokarmaleft	Hugo's Javert?
16:57	zerokarmaleft	nvm, reading the scrollback is good
16:58	technomancy	p_l: only going to happen if someone cares enough to do it.
16:59	p_l	might work on that if I get a java-centric job, I guess
16:59	p_l	right now CL support is more important to me
17:01	Borkdude	finally entity framework/visual studio/.NET and oracle are friends now...
17:08	jtoy	can I use require so that the namespace is added into the current namespace so i don't need to type out a path?
17:12	Borkdude	jtoy: you need use for that
17:13	Borkdude	jtoy: (use 'clojure.repl)
17:13	jtoy	ok, is it that refer that actually does that or use? i
17:13	Borkdude	jtoy: or in the ns-macro: (:use clojure.repl), but even better is with only: (:use [clojure.repl :only [varx vary varz])
17:14	Borkdude	,(doc use)
17:14	clojurebot	"([& args]); Like 'require, but also refers to each lib's namespace using clojure.core/refer. Use :use in the ns macro in preference to calling this directly. 'use accepts additional options in libspecs: :exclude, :only, :rename. The arguments and semantics for :exclude, :only, and :rename are the same as those documented for clojure.core/refer."
17:14	Borkdude	,(doc require)
17:14	clojurebot	"([& args]); Loads libs, skipping any that are already loaded. Each argument is either a libspec that identifies a lib, a prefix list that identifies multiple libs whose names share a common prefix, or a flag that modifies how all the identified libs are loaded. Use :require in the ns macro in preference to calling this directly. Libs A 'lib' is a named set of resources in classpath whose contents...
17:15	Borkdude	,(doc refer)
17:15	clojurebot	"([ns-sym & filters]); refers to all public vars of ns, subject to filters. filters can include at most one each of: :exclude list-of-symbols :only list-of-symbols :rename map-of-fromsymbol-tosymbol For each public interned var in the namespace named by the symbol, adds a mapping from the name of the var to the var to the current namespace. Throws an exception if name is already mapped to somethin...
17:15	Raynes	&(doc require)
17:15	lazybot	⇒ "([& args]); Loads libs, skipping any that are already loaded. Each argument is either a libspec that identifies a lib, a prefix list that identifies multiple libs whose names share a common prefix, or a flag that modifies how all the identified libs are loaded.... https://www.refheap.com/paste/2847
17:15	Raynes	If you're using Clojure 1.4, you also have :refer that you can give to require to do the same thing that `use` does.
17:15	gfredericks	pprint is a lot slower than pr
17:17	Borkdude	Raynes: you mean like this? (:require [foo :refer [x] :as bar]), so you can write (bar/y) but (x ..)?
17:25	Chiron_	why in the repl we need to quote symbols (require ['bang.core :as 'bang]) and we don't have to quote when inside clj files?
17:25	dnolen	Chiron_: nothing to do with files. It's because (ns ...) is a macro.
17:26	Chiron_	so it won't evaluate (hence no need to quote)?
17:26	dnolen	Chiron_: yes
17:27	Chiron_	I find myself prefer require over use, it allows more documented code. is it a good practice?
17:28	technomancy	Chiron_: I'd say yes
17:31	Borkdude	since require has refer and it's a good custom to use use only with only, I guess there is even less use for use
17:31	jtoy	is there a way from the repl I can see what names spaces I have loaded?
17:32	technomancy	jtoy: (all-ns) I think
17:32	jtoy	I loaded a namespace with use but am unable to use the method i want
17:33	Borkdude	jtoy: java method?
17:34	Borkdude	jtoy: for Java classes you need import
17:35	Borkdude	use is no longer required, require is of much use
17:35	technomancy	heh
17:35	technomancy	use is still good for backwards-compatibility in libraries
17:35	jtoy	it seems (all-ns) shows the namespace
17:35	Borkdude	and for REPL-sessions
17:35	Borkdude	I tend to use use, because I have to type less
17:36	technomancy	reqTAB =)
17:36	Borkdude	that's four keystrokes
17:36	technomancy	oh, but :refer :all is more; true
17:38	technomancy	I wonder why slime's tab completion doesn't put a space after completed tokens when it knows they are fully-completed
17:38	jtoy	so from the repl I do (use :reload-all 'interests.core) which in interests.core it calls (use 'interests.test) shouldn't interests.test methods be available from the repl?
17:38	Borkdude	technomancy: because maybe you want to type ) or / or . ?
17:38	Borkdude	jtoy: no
17:38	raek	jtoy: no, you only refered the functions from interests.core. refer is not transitive. (use = require + refer)
17:39	Borkdude	jtoy: it doesn't work transitively
17:39	technomancy	Borkdude: sometimes. not for function names though.
17:40	jtoy	so is there a way to do what I want?
17:40	TimMc	Hopefully not.
17:40	Borkdude	jtoy: don't do it…
17:40	jtoy	TimMc: to me?
17:40	TimMc	yeah
17:40	jtoy	I want to have one namespace that loads everything up, how does one structure that?
17:40	Borkdude	jtoy: you must also use interest.test
17:41	TimMc	Maintenance nightmare.
17:41	Borkdude	jtoy: go read about the namespace macro
17:41	TimMc	Readability nightmare too.
17:41	Borkdude	jtoy: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/ns
17:42	aaelony	lein2 exec -e is damn cool :)
17:42	technomancy	top-level side-effects =(
17:42	Borkdude	jtoy: for example this one http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/ns#example_527
17:43	technomancy	aaelony: you can do that without a plugin: lein run -m clojure.main -e
17:43	Borkdude	I renamed lein 1.7 to lein1, lein2 is now just lein ;)
17:44	jtoy	Borkdude: what is good about that example? i don't fully understand
17:44	aaelony	technomancy: nice stuff
17:46	technomancy	Borkdude: wooo
17:47	Borkdude	jtoy: it just shows you can require/use multiple other namespaces.
17:47	Borkdude	I gtg
17:50	samedhi	I am attempting to get running in my emacs, from slime I type (d/create-database uri) I get, "Unknown location: error: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.Util.equiv(CC)Z", does anyone have any ideas?
17:50	samedhi	get datomic
17:50	zaiste	hi
17:51	amalloy	incompatible clojure versions, samedhi
17:51	amalloy	you're probably running 1.3 or lower, with code compiled against 1.4?
17:51	samedhi	I am 1.4.beta3
17:52	samedhi	let me make sure though
17:54	samedhi	I have "clojure-1.4.0.jar" in my lib directory, and I have it written as [org.clojure/clojure "1.4.0-beta3"] in my project.clj, is any of that wrong?
17:55	S11001001	samedhi: run lein deps :tree to examine the results of lib resolution
17:56	S11001001	(that's a thing now right?)
17:57	samedhi	S11001001, WARNING: passing an argument to deps is deprecated. is all I got back, is this a lein2 feature?
17:58	samedhi	yeah, it appears to be a line 2 thing, because it works with that.
17:58	samedhi	*lein2
17:58	S11001001	for lein 1 try lein pom; mvn dependency:tree, assuming you've got mvn installed
17:58	S11001001	but lein2's output probably good enough
18:06	dwierenga	is the clojure-csv the canonical library for writing CSV files? it looks like there are lots of csv libraries on clojars
18:06	Raynes	Try it free for 30 days or your money back.
18:06	Raynes	Or something like that.
18:06	samedhi	S11001001, sorry sort of took a while to run, I do see "[INFO] +- org.clojure:clojure:jar:1.3.0:compile", that does not seem right, does a different dependency of mine supersede the clojure version I specify in project.clj?
18:07	dwierenga	Raynes: um. thanks..
18:07	S11001001	samedhi: first thing, why are you asking for 1.4.0-beta3, when 1.4.0 is out?
18:08	Raynes	dwierenga: Yeah, sorry. dsantiago's stuff is always good, so go for it.
18:08	S11001001	samedhi: anyway with maven, shallowest, then leftmost wins, unless someone's speccing a hard range
18:08	samedhi	umm, I actually though beta3 would be after just 1.4.0.
18:08	samedhi	I guess that makes sense
18:08	S11001001	hard ranges are relatively rare, though some did accidentally think they were good to use (e.g. me)
18:09	samedhi	Ok, I will see if just [org.clojure/clojure "1.4.0"] makes a difference
18:09	dwierenga	Raynes: ok cool thx!
18:09	S11001001	I think there is 1.5.0-alpha1 if you'd like to try that :)
18:09	S11001001	moreover misspelling will lead to rejection, so check search.maven.org for exact version specs
18:21	seancorfield	I know this is probably a long shot but does anyone here use iChat for screen sharing / pair programming (on a Mac) and also use Emacs?
18:22	seancorfield	(and I know that's a very generic question)
18:23	technomancy	I believe fully-visual screen sharing is still too high-latency to support pairing unless you have a crazyfast connection.
18:23	seancorfield	Reason for question: my team has noticed some oddities with remote editing via iChat in several editors and, in particular, with Emacs, the various command keys don't appear to be transmitted correctly via iChat... Curious if anyone has run into that and/or found a solution?
18:23	seancorfield	technomancy: well, it's certainly less than ideal but with cable modem speeds it's not _too_ painful... so the benefits outweigh the downsides right now...
18:24	seancorfield	but i want to move the team to emacs and the fact it doesn't play nice with iChat is an obstacle right now :)
18:24	technomancy	everyone's different I guess. I couldn't stand it.
18:24	technomancy	I could see using full-screen sharing for something other than emacs
18:25	technomancy	but half the fun of emacs is that it works great over SSH
18:25	seancorfield	yeah, i know :)
18:25	S11001001	but you don't get emacs image display or speedbar over ssh :)
18:25	technomancy	haha; speedbar
18:26	technomancy	I guess if you're going for a gradual transition it might make sense
18:27	seancorfield	every member of the team has a full self-contained dev environment so we essentially have to have ssh into each other's machines - and we're all remote with dynamic IP addresses :)
18:27	seancorfield	unless i set up a shared dev server we can all ssh into... which does have some benefits :)
18:28	technomancy	at sonian we had ~/.ssh/config kept in git so everyone could keep their shared usernames and dyndns entries in sync
18:28	seancorfield	interesting idea
18:28	technomancy	which kind of sucks because there's no ~/.ssh/config.d/* support; you have to stitch files together by hand if you want to keep personal settings in there too
18:29	technomancy	what we really need to do is convince zkim to get http://pair.io out of alpha =)
18:31	zaiste	can I ask a question about compojure/ring here ? =)
18:34	emezeske	zaiste: You betcha!
18:34	zaiste	;)
18:35	zaiste	i'm trying to figure how to read POST params from a form
18:35	zaiste	(POST "/" {params :params} (...)) gives empty map
18:36	zaiste	but (POST "/" {body :body} (slurp body)) gives the params in a raw format
18:36	zaiste	not sure how should I read them...
18:36	emezeske	zaiste: It sounds like maybe you aren't using the necessary middleware
18:37	emezeske	zaiste: I think you need to set up the wrap-params middleware
18:37	zaiste	I wrapped routes with handler/site from compojure
18:38	emezeske	I think that newer versions of compojure do not add wrap-params by default
18:39	zaiste	not sure about it, but reading from compojure source
18:40	zaiste	if it's wrapped with handler/site
18:40	zaiste	it should be automatically wrapped with wrap-params as well
18:40	zaiste	https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/blob/master/src/compojure/handler.clj
18:40	emezeske	Looks like you're correct!
18:41	zaiste	=)
18:42	emezeske	In which case, I've got no idea what's going wrong
18:42	emezeske	:(
18:42	zaiste	thanks anyway!
21:19	seancorfield	technomancy: fwiw, i decided the "simple" solution to my problem, at least in part, was to start an emacs daemon at login time and use emacsclient -t in Terminal to connect to it :)
22:06	muhoo	pandeiro: i'm poking around in this couch-session stuff atm. found where it's blowing up, now trying to fix it
22:14	pandeiro	muhoo: cool where is it blowing up?
22:14	muhoo	pandeiro: https://www.refheap.com/paste/2850
22:15	muhoo	i think it's an incompatibility with latest clutch, not ring
22:16	pandeiro	makes sense, did put-document change?
22:18	muhoo	not since 2011
22:19	muhoo	oh wait, it did, 4/08/12
22:19	muhoo	to-byte-array
22:21	muhoo	but that's not the problem, the data passed in to write-session is an emty map. will track down
22:27	muhoo	arrgh... noir won't reload namespaces from checkouts, even if i (require :reload) them
22:28	muhoo	actually (require :reload) ignores the checkouts completely, and pulls stuff from a jar instead.
22:36	pandeiro	muhoo: sorry i
22:36	pandeiro	... havent been able to look
22:37	kwertii	Is it possible to get the project.clj version string from within the project's code?
22:45	muhoo	pandeiro: np, i got this :-)
23:20	muhoo	pandeiro: fixed.
23:21	muhoo	well, sort of. there's a bug in clutch where if you do (get-document db nil), you get back a document with a map of the db's status
23:21	muhoo	and couch-session expects it to return nil
23:27	ro_st	anyone using live-coding-emacs?