#clojure – 2012-05-03

2012-05-03

00:00	xeqi	wei_: (map #(when (agent-error %) (System/exit 1)) agents) ?
00:01	xeqi	or doseq since map is lazy
00:02	wei_	xeql: thanks. should I use another agent to run this periodically?
00:03	xeqi	you could look at #(doc set-error-handler!) if it should happen all the time
00:04	xeqi	hmm, what is it for inline bot commands?
00:07	brehaut	##
00:08	brehaut	foo ##(inc 1) bar
00:08	lazybot	⇒ 2
00:16	wei_	,(doc set-error-handler!)
00:16	clojurebot	"([a handler-fn]); Sets the error-handler of agent a to handler-fn. If an action being run by the agent throws an exception or doesn't pass the validator fn, handler-fn will be called with two arguments: the agent and the exception."
00:18	wmealing	i didnt know about that, thanks.
00:27	emezeske	Any midje experts in here know how to deal with prerequisite functinos that take a variable number of arguments?
00:37	leo2007	last time I tried swank-clojure which is about 1 year ago it doesn't have CDT support. How to demonstrate the CDT feature in the new swank-clojure?
00:43	sritchie	ibdknox, qq
00:43	sritchie	if you were a man who used vimclojure, but had your memory wiped out --
00:44	sritchie	where would you go to rediscover the installation process?
00:47	jayunit100	how does "recur" know what the "recursion point" is in absence of a "loop" ?
00:47	sritchie	jayunit100: it jumps up to the function definition
00:47	sritchie	at the same arity
00:48	jayunit100	oh ok
00:48	jayunit100	so it looks to the nearest function definition.
00:48	jayunit100	or the one which it is immediately nested inside of .
00:49	jayunit100	hmmm one more question... Could not locate clojure/contrib/lazy_seqs__init.class?
00:50	Raynes	That is completely impossible to diagnose without more information.
00:50	Raynes	What are you doing that causes that?
00:50	jayunit100	ah nevermind. i thought it was always in the cp. forgot you have to add it.
00:50	jayunit100	raynes: yup... my bad... contrib is external. dug
00:51	Raynes	You shouldn't be using that anyways.
00:51	jayunit100	contrib ?
00:51	Raynes	http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
00:51	jayunit100	hmmm oh ok . i was looking for the prime # generator
00:52	jayunit100	clojure.contrib.lazy-seqs was killed off ?
00:52	Raynes	jayunit100: As of Clojure 1.3, monolithic contrib was split into a number of independent libraries (https://github.com/clojure). Some pieces of it that were inconsequential disappeared.
00:53	jayunit100	raynes: yup prob got rid of lazy primes. oh well thanks
00:53	jayunit100	night night gotta go sleepy
00:57	wmealing	i guess you could always move it forward in your own lib
01:23	sritchie	does anyone know how to access the previous statement in vimclojure, at the nailgun repl?
01:34	wei_	sritchie: Ctrl Up, i believe
01:34	wei_	you have to be in insert mode
01:35	sritchie	wei_: nice, thanks
01:48	wei_	i'm trying to reify a java interface, in which onMessage should dispatch an event to an agent. what's the best way to implement this? I've tried (defn make-handler [msg-fn] (reify IOCallback (on [_ msg] (msg-fn msg)))) but when I have multiple agents, each with their own socket, the messages aren't getting routed to the right agent.
02:42	leo2007	is the clojure api doc http://clojure.github.com/clojure/ built from its doc-strings?
02:52	wmealing	it does look like it
03:03	creese	having trouble with atoms. I want to assoc into an empty hash I have the keys and vals as a list
03:04	creese	(apply assoc {} (interleave (keys (get-hash seuss)) (vals (get-hash ))))
03:04	creese	gives, {\c #{"cat"}, \a #{"cat" "hat"}, \t #{"cat" "hat"}, \h #{"hat"}}, this is what I want
03:05	creese	what is correct format for swap! so I can update the atom?
03:08	creese	I'm trying (swap! dictionary (apply assoc (interleave (keys (get-hash seuss)) (vals (get-hash seuss))))), but this isn't quite it.
03:10	leo2007	wmealing: thanks
03:10	amalloy	huh? the stuff you've glossed over makes your question difficult to understand
03:10	amalloy	it sounds like you probably just want (swap! dictionary into (get-hash seuss))
03:11	creese	I didn't know you could put the hash in there directly
03:11	amalloy	(swap! a f x) => sets a to (f @a x)
03:12	amalloy	to merge two maps, you can use merge, or into, or any number of things. apply/assoc/interleave is usually not the best way
03:13	amalloy	if you wanted to do it that way, you could do (swap! dictionary #(apply assoc % (interleave ...)))
03:14	amalloy	or, equivalently, (swap! dictionary (partial apply assoc) (interleave ...))
03:15	creese	(swap! dictionary into (get-hash seuss)) does what I want
03:15	creese	thanks
04:15	leo2007	there is no equivalent of the hyperspec for common lisp, right?
04:30	faust45	is it clear to use agents to handle http req in async way?
04:39	tomoj	faust45: have you looked at aleph?
04:39	faust45	tomoj: no
04:39	tomoj	https://github.com/ztellman/aleph/wiki/HTTP
04:40	faust45	tomoj: thanks will take a look
04:41	tomoj	agents may work for your needs, dunno, but aleph is what I use for async http
04:41	tomoj	bit complicated maybe since you need to learn lamina too
04:41	tomoj	for that, http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Event-Driven-Programming-in-Clojure
04:42	tomoj	is a good high level presentation
05:07	devn	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eivzaGgnFw&feature=relmfu
05:09	leo2007	folks, clojure for android, is it realistic now?
05:09	leo2007	In a business sense.
05:10	devn	leo2007: i dont think so yet, but im by no means an authority on that topic
05:10	devn	leo2007: there's some active work being done on that front though
05:11	leo2007	devn: where to find out?
05:13	devn	leo2007: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-android/browse_thread/thread/05bc8bc4fa145e67/9c828a4946877b47?show_docid=9c828a4946877b47
05:13	leo2007	didn't know there is a dedicated ml. Thanks.
05:15	devn	leo2007: happy to help. happy clojuring. :)
05:16	leo2007	any business/startups using clojurescript?
05:47	_KY_	Under "lein run", the core.clj module cannot read from in, how to fix that?
05:56	_KY_	How can I run the project after compiling it in lein?
05:58	vijaykiran	_KY_: if you have a main class and created uberjar, you can use java -jar jar-name.jar
05:59	_KY_	I tried to run the main class
05:59	_KY_	But it doesn't work...
05:59	_KY_	Don't know why
06:02	_KY_	I tried uberjar it says cannot locate main class
06:04	pooya72	_KY_: have you followed the steps in the tutorial? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10240100/clojure-lein-package-into-jar/10244187#10244187
06:08	_KY_	Thanks... succeeded =)
06:08	pooya72	_KY_: yes!
06:08	_KY_	So.. when I run it compiled, it can read in
06:08	_KY_	But not when running under lein
06:10	pooya72	i don't see why it shouldn't work under lein
06:11	pooya72	you mean the repl or lein run?
06:27	leo2007	is idempotent a word?
06:28	bradwright	yes
06:28	bradwright	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idempotence
06:29	leo2007	thanks
06:58	leo2007	if I type '#(whatever %1) in the repl, it gives me (fn* [p1__2469#] (whatever p1__2469#))
06:59	leo2007	but to use slime's macro expansion to get the same results?
06:59	leo2007	I only have: #(whatever %)
07:00	leo2007	Is this because macroexpand-all is not yet implemented?
07:13	beffbernard	Morning
07:19	pooya72	beffbernard:Morning
07:27	cshell	morning :)
07:44	y3di	did the clojurewest vids ever go up?
07:53	creese	trying to print the value of a var inside a let, but its complaining about lazy sequences, how can I force those?
08:04	_KY_	pooya72: when I do "lein run", my code does a "read" but the input is frozen...
08:04	pooya72	creese: Force evaluation: doseq dorun doall
08:04	_KY_	Seems that in is re-directed somewhere else
08:04	creese	_ (doall (println (words-by-letter)))
08:04	creese	doesn't work, where do I put it?
08:06	pooya72	creese: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/doall
08:08	pooya72	_KY_: I don't know, I think I have to look at the code. But I'm a noob, so don't know how much I can help.
08:08	_KY_	Have you tried "read" under lein run?
08:08	_KY_	See if your setup work =)
08:09	_KY_	The code is just a simple (read)
08:09	pooya72	_KY_:
08:09	pooya72	_KY_: ok
08:09	michaelr525	padLeft in clojure?
08:10	solussd_	If I want to have my webserver reply to a GET at an arbitrary URL with a file download, can I simply return (slurp "path/to/file")? it seems to work with text, but not images
08:15	cemerick	solussd_: try returning (java.io.File. "path/to/file")
08:16	cemerick	Though you should use an existing static resource handler for that, so you're not accidentially serving files like e.g. "/etc/passwd" :-)
08:17	solussd_	cemerick: that worked. Can you tell me why? :)
08:18	solussd_	cemerick: I provide a link that doesn't contain the filename, e.g. http://<servername>/filesubmissions/<uuid>/file, and that looks up the filepath and serves it. :)
08:19	cemerick	solussd_: oh, I see. I presume you're using compojure?
08:20	solussd_	cemerick: noir
08:20	cemerick	sure, which uses compojure underneath
08:20	solussd_	yup
08:20	cemerick	I believe that's where the automatic Content-Type handling and such is done.
08:21	cemerick	Unless the files you're serving have no extension, in which case you should need to set the content type yourself.
08:21	sandGorgon	cemerick, shouldnt that be handled by something like nginx in front of the actual app ?
08:21	_KY_	How can I do (read) from a string?
08:21	solussd_	using Noir with Enlive, clojurescript+jayq for client-side, fetch for ajax (or acacs I guess), Korma for db, and Lobos for migrations. All works quite well together
08:21	cemerick	_KY_: read-string
08:22	cemerick	sandGorgon: well, not if there isn't a direct mapping between the URI and the file to be served
08:22	solussd_	cemerick: i explicitely set the content-type using (noir.response/content-type <type> <stream>)
08:22	cemerick	In any case, it's tons simpler to not have to mess with nginx or apache or lighttpd, or…
08:22	_KY_	Ahh that works =)
08:23	solussd_	jetty seems performant. I like. :)
08:23	cemerick	Good enough for almost everything.
08:23	sandGorgon	cemerick, even if there is not, shouldnt the app should just do a redirect to the actual file path and let nginx serve it ?
08:23	cemerick	Once it's not, you're probably better off using a CDN
08:24	cemerick	sandGorgon: but for what purpose?
08:24	fdaoud	solussd_: "acacs" --that's funny :)
08:24	sandGorgon	cemerick, ur comment about a CDN supersedes that anyway ;)
08:24	cemerick	:-)
08:25	cemerick	hardly anyone needs whatever performance benefits nginx et al. provide, or a CDN for that matter
08:25	cemerick	Those that do…use them. :-)
08:26	solussd_	fdaoud: yeah, it makes a lot of sense. No point in serializing clojure to XML- clojure is its own serialization format. (code is data! yay!)
08:26	fdaoud	indeed
08:26	pooya72	_KY_: I tried this (example 2) in lein run: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/read and it worked
08:27	solussd_	I convinced the right people at work to let me do a couple of the projects in the pipeline in clojure. So far, so good. Nice to write clojure at work. :)
08:28	robertstuttaford	cemerick: awesome! thanks for posting the video. quick question. i'm unable to download the video from youtube (for watching later). any clue why?
08:28	cemerick	robertstuttaford: dunno; is that supposed to be possible in general?
08:29	_KY_	pooya72: why not try example 1?
08:29	_KY_	I have problem when reading from standard input ... it freezes
08:29	cemerick	right, so: I posted an introductory 'Starting Clojure' screencast yesterday: http://cemerick.com/2012/05/02/starting-clojure/
08:29	robertstuttaford	yes. here in south africa, our connectivity isn't that fast so i download 'casts to watch so i don't have to wait for buffering
08:30	robertstuttaford	but for some reason when i download i only get a 1.7mb blob and then that's it
08:30	robertstuttaford	how big is your source vid ? :)
08:30	cemerick	robertstuttaford: I think it was ~300MB, but I have no idea what youtube does to it
08:31	pooya72	cemerick: thanks for the video :)
08:32	cemerick	robertstuttaford: how are you getting a download link?
08:33	robertstuttaford	using DownThemAll for firefox; it sniffs out the url that flash player requests
08:34	cemerick	ah
08:34	clgv	is there a predicate placed replace function in clojure where the replacement is determined by a given function?
08:35	pooya72	_KY_: because i assumed there was no way to get user feedback. so I assumed it wouldn't work in lein run.
08:35	_KY_	Did it work?
08:36	cemerick	clgv: you mean for string/regex replacements?
08:36	clgv	something like: (replace coll vector? #(map inc %))
08:36	_KY_	Any one else know why (read) fails to work under "lien run"?
08:36	pooya72	_KY_: No, and not in lein run, but works in uberjar. Ask technomancy, or the mailing list.
08:36	_KY_	Same here...
08:36	_KY_	I have to uberjar it
08:37	clgv	cemerick: no. for items in collectionc
08:38	pooya72	_KY_: try lein trampoline run
08:38	pooya72	_KY_: it worked for me
08:38	pooya72	_KY_: read up on it here: https://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/a720fbb471edc040/09521c4b02c86f30?lnk=gst&q=trampoline
08:38	cemerick	clgv: Not AFAIK.
08:39	clgv	cemerick: so everyone is composing this common task for themselves right now?
08:39	cemerick	When necessary, yeah.
08:39	clgv	ok
08:41	_KY_	But "lein trampoline run" just gave me some java help
08:45	pooya72	_KY_: really? it worked for me. given the example in clojure docs for (read)
08:46	_KY_	It prints the java usage information
08:50	robertstuttaford	is there an incantation for the repl that automatically adds closing parens upon typing an opening one?
08:50	cemerick	robertstuttaford: where is your REPL?
08:51	mdeboard	I always found paredit to be kind of hard to get used to
08:52	mdeboard	Paren highlighting has been enough for me so far
08:52	robertstuttaford	um, lein repl
08:53	robertstuttaford	right now it's either there or whatever it is la-clojure in intellij is giving me
08:53	rnika	does clojure have a function like Scheme's for-each? Apply a function to each item in a sequence? (for-each prn '(1 2 3))
08:53	robertstuttaford	rnika: that's map, surely?
08:53	kephale	or doseq
08:54	rnika	but map builds up a result, I don't need one.
08:54	robertstuttaford	doseq, yes
08:55	ssedano1	Hi, is redis-clojure the most up-to-date client?
08:55	robertstuttaford	what's the largest production deployment (in users) of clojure that anyone knows of?
08:56	vijaykiran	robertstuttaford: http://getprismatic.com/ is built in clojure AFAIK
08:58	cemerick	robertstuttaford: paredit-style editing in a terminal is probably not going to happen
08:58	cemerick	If you're not fond of IntelliJ's REPL, counterclockwise's is very nice IMO. (Of course, I'm biased.)
08:59	cemerick	robertstuttaford: also: http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Clojure+Success+Stories
08:59	robertstuttaford	ah brilliant @ success stories
08:59	robertstuttaford	i'll check the eclipse plugin
08:59	robertstuttaford	i get a bad taste in my mouth whenever i see eclipse. i blame flex/flash builder
09:00	nDuff	robertstuttaford: ...I don't see Dell in the success stories page, but they're using it too (monitoring/statistics analysis infrastructure within the SaaS division)
09:01	cemerick	robertstuttaford: a particularly bad citizen, it's true
09:01	mdeboard	Prismatic is built with clj but they've got a relatively tiny user base
09:07	robertstuttaford	simple.com too!
09:07	robertstuttaford	http://www.quora.com/Whos-using-Clojure-in-production
09:08	hhutch	robertstuttaford: Comcast also (I don't work there I just know it to be true)
09:10	leo2007	shit even after a year, lein still fails: http://paste.pound-python.org/show/20624/
09:10	clgv	leo2007: windows?
09:11	leo2007	I use rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.96.1 (Mac OS X 10.6.8)
09:12	leo2007	when in invoked lein, it downloaded the jar in current directory and somehow failed to copy it to ~/.lein/self-installs
09:12	leo2007	s/in/I/
09:19	ejlo	Is it possible to print the emitted js code from a cljs REPL?
09:23	uvtc	Using lein 2, while running `lein repl`, I see that I can run `-main` from from the repl like so: `(-main)`. However, the if I update my src/foo/core.clj file, how do I reload it in the repl?
09:24	vijaykiran	uvtc: (use 'foo.core :reload)
09:24	uvtc	Thanks, vijaykiran!
09:31	_KY_	Is there something wrong with my installation if "lein trampoline run" gives me the java usage info?
09:34	vijaykiran	_KY_: what's the output you are getting ?
09:34	vijaykiran	can you paste your project.clj somewhere ?
09:34	_KY_	Usage: java [-options] class [args...]
09:34	_KY_	(To execute a class)
09:34	_KY_	Or java [-options] -jar jarfile [args...]
09:34	_KY_	(To execute a jar file)
09:34	_KY_	All the java usage help...
09:35	_KY_	https://refheap.com/paste/2523
09:37	michaelr525	err something strange is going on here
09:39	michaelr525	meh defn instead of def and a cryptic error message
09:40	michaelr525	IllegalArgumentException Parameter declaration str should be a vector clojure.core/assert-valid-fdecl (core.clj:6465)
09:40	michaelr525
09:40	cshell	dakrone: Nice clj-http library
09:40	michaelr525	google saved the day again
09:40	clgv	michaelr525: erm, what do you do?
09:41	_KY_	"Lein run" works fine but "lein trampoline run" gives me java usage =(
09:42	michaelr525	clgv: i wrote this (defn base-path (str home-dir "/images"))
09:42	michaelr525	instead of (def
09:42	S11001001	&(doc constantly)
09:42	lazybot	⇒ "([x]); Returns a function that takes any number of arguments and returns x."
09:42	chace	should be (def :)
09:42	clgv	ah kk
09:42	vijaykiran	_KY_: which version of lein are you using ?
09:43	fdaoud	michaelr525: I did something like that once and it took me a good hour to figure it out :(
09:43	_KY_	Leiningen 1.7.1 on Java 1.7.0_03 Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM
09:44	chace	what am I missing here: (-> (list :a) zip/seq-zip zip/down zip/remove) ? gives me a null pointer exception, while [:a] vector-zip ... works.
09:45	chace	I would expect it to return the empty parent node
09:45	chace	doesn't work on deeper levels either
09:45	vijaykiran	_KY_: which OS ?
09:45	vijaykiran	trampoline seems to run this : https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/bin/lein#L203
09:46	_KY_	cygwin
09:47	_KY_	Cygwin under winXP 32bit
09:48	robertstuttaford	cygwin is old and pretty unusable these days. _KY_, why not grab virtualbox and spin up ubuntu lucid in there and use putty to ssh into the vm instead?
09:49	vijaykiran	_KY_: I guess as a work around - you can just run the jar directly. Seems like a bug with cygwin + lein trampoline
09:49	_KY_	Yeah.. you remind me install ubuntu... =)
09:50	_KY_	Right... uberjar works already
09:50	_KY_	But I'm thinking "lein run" may be more convenient during development
09:50	vijaykiran	if you are trampolining that's not much of a help anyway
09:51	_KY_	Does NetBean use lein or maven?
09:51	_KY_	Why not?
09:52	vijaykiran	Netbeans has support for Maven, I didn't use lein + netbeans
09:54	clgv	_KY_: why dont you use leiningen natively under windows?
09:55	_KY_	Can I do that?
09:55	vijaykiran	there's lein.bat
09:55	S11001001	_KY_: even more convenient is just to spawn your main call in your development repl
09:55	felideon	there's also linux ^_^
09:55	clgv	yeah. last time I checked windows was supported by leiningen ^^
09:56	_KY_	S11001001: you mean don't use lein at all?
09:56	S11001001	_KY_: you don't need lein run to test your app; you can just load the module with your main function in the repl, and call it
09:57	S11001001	_KY_: that way you can continue to make changes to your running program, notwithstanding extant stack frames and data incompatibilities, but the benefit is well worth the occasional restart instead of the constant restarting
09:58	S11001001	restart cycles are for other development environments; it's not the lisp way
09:59	_KY_	I see...
09:59	_KY_	Now "lein run" works in windows, but I still can't do "lein trampoline run"
10:00	_KY_	"Error: Could not find or load main class and" (sic)
10:02	_KY_	Also, I can't start the REPL and then change directory to my project...
10:02	S11001001	what repl is that?
10:02	_KY_	The clojure REPL
10:02	S11001001	lein repl starts in the project
10:02	S11001001	swank starts in the project
10:03	S11001001	java -cp `cd proj && lein classpath` clojure.main --repl starts wherever you want
10:03	S11001001	what particular clojure repl doesn't start in the project?
10:05	_KY_	Fine... lein repl fits my requirements
10:09	felideon	S11001001: why'd you 'switch' to clojure?
10:10	S11001001	felideon: immutable data, lazy sequences, a lisp (and emacs-centric like one), got a job in it
10:11	S11001001	felideon: why?
10:12	felideon	S11001001: just remember you from #lisp :)
10:12	S11001001	yeah
10:12	felideon	S11001001: oh, congrats on job :)
10:12	S11001001	I did a big weblocks project for a client and got extremely frustrated with explicit state management; it was a mess
10:13	felideon	that's a problem with weblocks, though, no? not that i've ever used it.
10:14	S11001001	it's a problem with having your views reflect your state, and your controllers alter your state, and not having automatic relationships between them
10:15	felideon	right, i guess my point is that that is not a problem with Lisp, but with the framework you went with.
10:15	felideon	correct me if I'm wrong, though
10:17	felideon	we can -> /q though :)
10:18	dnolen	felideon: I think it would be a problem in any language w/o good state management.
10:19	felideon	I guess I'm not understanding 'state management' at the language level. are you talking about immmutability, laziness, et al?
10:19	S11001001	I like writing functions
10:20	S11001001	the CL community doesn't lend itself to doing that for everything
10:20	qerub	Hello.
10:20	S11001001	if you stay in your own little world, using your own little okasakis, sure, all's well
10:21	felideon	okasakis?
10:21	S11001001	"purely functional data structures" :)
10:22	felideon	ah
10:27	felideon	I guess as I learn Clojure I will be enligthened. :)
10:28	mdeboard	embiggened
10:31	gfredericks	learning clojure requires a noble spirit
10:33	dgrnbrg	,(symbol (name (ns-name ns)) 'my-symbol)
10:33	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to java.lang.String>
10:33	dgrnbrg	,(symbol (name (ns-name ns)) "my-symbol")
10:33	clojurebot	sandbox/my-symbol
10:34	dgrnbrg	,'hi
10:34	clojurebot	hi
10:34	bhenry	ping ibdknox: i need to bug you again. briefly.
10:34	dgrnbrg	,`~(symbol "my-symbol")
10:34	clojurebot	my-symbol
10:34	bhenry	can i use (in) from korma with just a vector or list?
10:34	dgrnbrg	How can I take a string and get the namespace-qualified symbol?
10:35	dgrnbrg	the first thing I did works, but it seems weird to use name, ns-name, and symbol--it seems like there should be a simpler way
10:35	bhenry	ibdknox: i have tried a few different syntaxes and can't quite figure it out
10:35	Bronsa	,(symbol (str ns) "symbol)
10:35	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
10:35	Bronsa	,(symbol (str ns) "symbol")
10:35	clojurebot	sandbox/symbol
10:36	dgrnbrg	Bronsa: thanks!
10:44	TimMc	Is there a way to add something to Lein 1.x's classpath? I have a project I'd like to have available from the REPL.
10:45	mefesto	is there a way to have leiningen create checksum files when performing a `lein install` for a project?
10:48	jakemcc	TimMc: would the checkouts directory feature do what you want? http://jakemccrary.com/blog/2012/03/28/working-on-multiple-clojure-projects-at-once/
10:49	TimMc	jakemcc: No, it's a REPL util project. I've implemented a replacement for contrib's "show", and I'd like it to be available in all my REPLs.
10:49	TimMc	I could write a plugin whose sole purpose is to bring in this utility...
10:51	antares_	TimMc: you can specify multiple source locations
10:52	TimMc	?
11:06	boodle	Ok, silly ? but why is this false? https://refheap.com/paste/2525
11:06	gfredericks	boodle: contains doesn't do what you think it does
11:06	gfredericks	contains? is a n00b trap
11:06	gfredericks	&(doc contains?)
11:06	lazybot	⇒ "([coll key]); Returns true if key is present in the given collection, otherwise returns false. Note that for numerically indexed collections like vectors and Java arrays, this tests if the numeric key is within the range of indexes. 'contains?' operates constant or... https://refheap.com/paste/2526
11:07	boodle	gfredericks: so really for keys to collections, not contents per se
11:07	gfredericks	boodle: exactly
11:07	boodle	k ty
11:08	gfredericks	&(some #{58} '(58 59 60 61 62 66 69 71 72 73 78))
11:08	lazybot	⇒ 58
11:08	TimMc	Hmm, can anyone point me to some class in the Java or Clojure std lib where there is a method override with a narrowing return type or a widening param type?
11:10	S11001001	nope
11:10	gfredericks	nobody can
11:11	TimMc	I'm trying to test out this reflection lib I'm writing. :-/
11:12	TimMc	I just realized that my approach to getting all inherited methods is flawed, since I'm not shadowing out overriden methods.
11:14	stephenjb	is a "unable to resolve symbol" a scope problem?
11:14	stephenjb	trying to do a noir example getting that error
11:15	pandeiro	why does ring's run-jetty fn need the handler arg to be var-quoted?
11:16	gfredericks	pandeiro: I don't think it needs it
11:16	gfredericks	probably has something to do with reloading
11:16	pandeiro	gfredericks: ah
11:16	gfredericks	the extra level of indirection makes sure that when the var is rebound it sees the change
11:16	pandeiro	noticed noir's template does it and cemerick's screencast has it var-quoted too, so that's why. thanks
11:17	TimMc	gfredericks: Err, yes. A coworker points out that you can't override with a widening param type, only a widening exception type.
11:17	TimMc	*narrowing, gah
11:17	TimMc	I am so confused.
11:17	gfredericks	TimMc: huh? did I say something about your issue?
11:17	TimMc	"nobody can"
11:17	gfredericks	ah right
11:18	gfredericks	I was just kinda making fun of S11001001's response
11:18	TimMc	Ah, OK!
11:18	gfredericks	I don't actually know much about it :)
11:18	gfredericks	but glad I was right!
11:18	mfex	pandeiro, re #' see http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/d52bbda3ff0967c8/254a918b9ffe92b9?lnk=gst&q=run-jetty#
11:18	pandeiro	mfex: cheers
11:20	S11001001	that's what I said :)
11:21	_KY_	How come clojure has no "append" for lists?
11:21	gfredericks	&(doc concat)
11:21	lazybot	⇒ "([] [x] [x y] [x y & zs]); Returns a lazy seq representing the concatenation of the elements in the supplied colls."
11:21	S11001001	&(doc assoc)
11:21	lazybot	⇒ "([map key val] [map key val & kvs]); assoc[iate]. When applied to a map, returns a new map of the same (hashed/sorted) type, that contains the mapping of key(s) to val(s). When applied to a vector, returns a new vector that contains val at index. Note - index must be <= (count vector)."
11:21	S11001001	pick which is weirder
11:45	jonaskoelker	is there something like map-values which transforms {k v} to {k (f v)} (for all kv in that map)?
11:45	gfredericks	I bet flatland/useful has something like that
11:46	jonaskoelker	flatland/useful?
11:46	gfredericks	https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/map.clj#L47
11:48	mfex	jonaskoelker, also (zipmap (keys m) (map f (vals m)))
12:01	pandeiro	why doesn't slime allow an already defined var to be redefined?
12:04	mdeboard	pandeiro: because vars are static
12:34	pandeiro	mdeboard: you mean in slime or in clojure? the stock clojure repl allows it
12:43	dnolen	nDuff: protocols fn don't support &
12:45	clgv	dnolen: there should be an error message for '& in protocol function arguments - since it doesnt do what almost everyone supposes
12:45	dnolen	clgv: probably, but somebody needs to make a patch for that.
12:46	clgv	dnolen: and that somebody needs to have the CA signed...
12:47	dnolen	clgv: no better time than now.
12:47	clgv	it's only possible via traditional mail?
12:49	jweiss	any emacs experts know how to add another keyword to clojure-font-lock-keywords?
12:50	dnolen	clgv: yep
12:53	beffbernard	jweiss: in clojure-mode.el just look for (defconst clojure-font-lock-keywords …) then add there
12:53	jweiss	beffbernard: yeah, i was hoping to add a line to my own emacs.d file, not try to changed a packaged file :)
12:53	jweiss	but i assume "defconst" means what i think it means in elisp.
12:55	beffbernard	jweiss: not knowing what sort of effort is involved, just bust out the list of regexes out so you can append to it from outside
12:56	beffbernard	then submit the patch
12:56	jweiss	while i am asking sort of obscure questions, i am trying to run autodoc from leiningen, and use the :namespaces-to-document option. but no matter what i put there, it causes the tool to just skip everything. i tried a vector of strings, a single string with comma-separated ns's, a vector of quoted namespaces, a vector of namespaces. nothing worked.
12:56	jweiss	beffbernard: right, a bit too much work just to see a single macro name highlighted :)
12:57	beffbernard	jweiss: they aren't highlighted already?
12:57	jweiss	beffbernard: the built in ones are, i want it to highlight one of mine :)
12:57	beffbernard	Try downloading the latest clojure-mode.el
12:58	beffbernard	from technomancy I believe
12:58	beffbernard	I'm pretty sure it does highlight macros
12:58	jweiss	beffbernard: how is that possible without slime? clojure-mode has no way to know what is a macro.
12:58	dnolen	nDuff: extend-type is macro, the & in the sig is unrelated to the fact that protocol fns don't support &
12:59	beffbernard	jweiss: let me see
12:59	technomancy	it doesn't highlight macros specially
12:59	technomancy	amalloy_ would know more about adding forms to the highlighting; he implemneted that
13:00	nDuff	dnolen: ...not in the signature, but in the example usage.
13:01	nDuff	...shortening a bit, the docs include as an example: (extend-type MyType Foo (baz ([x] ...) ([x y & zs] ...)))
13:01	dnolen	nDuff: yeah that's misleading should be [x y ...]
13:05	jamii	user=> (defn var [] (Var. (swap! next-id + 1)))
13:05	jamii	#'user/var
13:05	jamii	user=> (var)
13:05	jamii	CompilerException java.lang.NullPointerException, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:20)
13:05	jamii	user=> (Var. (swap! next-id + 1))
13:05	jamii	#user.Var{:id 4}
13:05	jamii	user=> (var)
13:05	jamii	CompilerException java.lang.NullPointerException, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:22)
13:06	jamii	um....
13:06	jamii	Am I just being dense or is that weird?
13:06	beffbernard	weavejester: ping
13:06	gfredericks	jamii: you want it to make a new var for you?
13:06	gfredericks	or a better error message?
13:06	jamii	gfredericks: not a clojure var
13:06	jamii	(defrecord Var [id])
13:07	jamii	I don't understand why calling the function gives a NullPointerException but calling its body works fine
13:07	gfredericks	jamii: did you (defn var ...) somewhere?
13:07	jamii	gfredericks: ^^^
13:08	gfredericks	jamii: why would (defrecord Var [id]) allow you to call (var)?
13:08	gfredericks	they are spelt different
13:08	jamii	That was a multiline paste, did you only get part of it?
13:08	gfredericks	oh yeah
13:08	gfredericks	use refheap.com
13:08	dnolen	jamii: var is a special form, you cannot redef it.
13:08	hiredman	also, since (var ...) is a clojure special form you can never call something named var like that
13:09	gfredericks	jamii: what dnolen and hiredman just said is what I was getting to
13:10	jamii	Oh 'var' is a function which I defined but '(var ...)' is a special form.
13:10	jamii	I wondered about keywords but I thought it was ok at first because
13:10	jamii	user=> var
13:10	jamii	#<user$var user$var@329f14c3>
13:10	jamii	Thanks
13:11	gfredericks	jamii: the compiler short-circuits if it sees a special form at the front of a list, no matter what you've def'd anywhere
13:11	jamii	gfredericks: Yep, that confused me for a while.
13:15	nDuff	mefesto: ...by the way, I didn't read you as suggesting everyone define their own EOF, but doing the (def EOF (Object.)) thing seems unnecessary when we have ::EOF
13:21	TimMc	nDuff: (Object.) is a better sentinal because it is impossible for another non-`identical?` copy to appear in a data stream.
13:24	gfredericks	TimMc: and statically typed languages are better because it is impossible to call a function with the wrong type
13:24	the-kenny	It's really annoying when the functions of the same protocols differ for Clojure and Clojurescript.
13:24	the-kenny	(Example: ILookup: valAt vs -lookup
13:25	dnolen	the-kenny: except Clojure on the JVM isn't built on protocols - it's built on Java Interfaces.
13:25	the-kenny	dnolen: Yeah, I know
13:26	the-kenny	dnolen: I just think the implementations should match as much as possible. I'm currently cross-compiling a "big" codebase and want to replace a defrecord with a custom defprotocol overriding ILookup, Indexed and some other stuff
13:27	gfredericks	TimMc: (just trolling)
13:27	TimMc	gfredericks: (I know)
13:27	TimMc	I'm more awake now.
13:27	dnolen	the-kenny: it would be nice, but I think many of the decisions in CLJS are about getting Clojure "right".
13:28	dnolen	the-kenny: you might want to take a look at the library cljx that lynaghk` created
13:29	lynaghk`	dnolen, the-kenny: right now there aren't any rewrites for protocol implementation names, though I'd like to have that functionality in the future. I'm not sure if it's possible using the core.logic rules or if there will need to be another matching system.
13:30	the-kenny	dnolen: Thanks, I will
13:30	the-kenny	dnolen: Oh btw. your familiar with Closure? My team ran into a few problems with data-attributes at a hackathon last weekend
13:31	dnolen	lynaghk`: btw, I think I've got the foundation for big improvements across the board for ClojureScript.
13:31	dnolen	the-kenny: I don't use the Closure much, pretty much all my CLJS work is on the compiler
13:31	lynaghk`	dnolen: wooooo! I spent four hours sketching out a profiling system yesterday, btw.
13:32	dnolen	lynaghk`: nice we really need a comprehensive set of benchmarks to track performance / regressions
13:32	lynaghk`	dnolen: I will try to get it polished up and out the door in a usable state early next week.
13:32	the-kenny	dnolen: Hm ok, nevermind then. Closure was just silently discarding calls to set attributes with a data-prefix
13:32	dnolen	lynaghk`: with pretty graphs in C2 I hope ;)
13:32	lynaghk`	dnolen: definitely
13:32	dnolen	lynaghk`: SWEET
13:33	lynaghk`	dnolen: what would the architecture look like, by the way? I sort of punted on long-term data storage and comparison across cljs revisions. Right now you tag bodies of code in cljs or js and it stores the results in localStorage
13:33	dnolen	the-kenny: like a bug in Closure?
13:33	lynaghk`	so you can reload the browser a few times to do multiple runs, then open up "viewer.html" and see the output.
13:33	the-kenny	dnolen: Yeah. We didn't have the time to track it down, but it was REALLY annoying
13:34	the-kenny	(We used jquery as a quick hack)
13:34	dnolen	the-kenny: strange - I'd like to move to a newer version of Closure (we're almost a year out of date) but someone needs to provide a comprehensive fix for browser REPL.
13:35	dnolen	the-kenny: reproducible bug reports always welcome.
13:35	dnolen	lynaghk`: why not just dump a Clojure data structure to a file that can be loaded?
13:35	the-kenny	I'm pretty sure it was a Closure Bug. Might be documented behavior, we didn't check
13:35	lynaghk`	dnolen: any interest in tag-teaming a talk/session on clj/cljs interfaces at StrataConf in October NYC, btw?
13:36	lynaghk`	dnolen: too annoying to try and dump a file from the browser. What's in localstorage is just an array of maps though, so it wouldn't be too difficult to add new keys and serialize for more serious analysis if needed
13:37	mdeboard	emacsexpertsexchange.com
13:37	dnolen	lynaghk`: haha, I'm not sure I could talk that much about CLJ/CLJS interfaces (if by that you mean UI)
13:37	dnolen	lynaghk`: true, I'm just thinking it would be nice to be able to share performance profiles somehow ...
13:37	the-kenny	dnolen: What's broken in browser REPL?
13:37	clojurebot	you mean clojure.main
13:38	dnolen	the-kenny: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-35, http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-161
13:38	dnolen	the-kenny: I mean we're not going to move to a newer version of Closure until these tickets get resolved.
13:39	the-kenny	ah
13:39	lynaghk`	dnolen: I'm sure you could talk about the expressiveness of Clojure, power of declarative programming, &c. &c. I've got a few full-stack clojure/clojurescript projects that strataconf folks would probably eat up.
13:39	dnolen	lynaghk`: I'm up for it!
13:39	lynaghk`	dnolen: boss. I'll throw something together this evening and send it your way. Maybe we can skype or phonecall sometime tomorrow?
13:40	dnolen	lynaghk`: sounds good.
13:41	lynaghk`	dnolen: we could submit a tutorial, or if you think we could round up jashkenas, mbostock, and hadley maybe we could do a straightup panel.
13:44	dnolen	lynaghk`: that could be fun!
13:45	pandeiro	is it possible to write a function that could used to 'autoload' a set of dependencies' vars into the current slime ns?
13:46	hiredman	require?
13:46	the-kenny	Just send a require call trough the repl
13:46	pandeiro	hiredman: to be able to use them unqualified?
13:46	the-kenny	use, then.
13:47	pandeiro	yeah (defn load-deps [] (use 'foo)) doesn't work, should it?
13:49	pandeiro	gah dunno why it wasnt working before, nm
14:05	_KY_	I want to read a clojure object from a string using "read-string" and know where the object ends within the string, any clue?
14:06	technomancy	_KY_: maybe call subs on the string?
14:07	_KY_	But sometimes the clojure object changes its appearance
14:07	_KY_	For example, with "quote" and [1,2,3,4] ==> [1 2 3 4]
14:08	robertstuttaford	cemerick: LOVING this cast
14:08	S11001001	_KY_: make your own pushbackreader, pass it to read, and see what's left in the stream after read returns
14:08	robertstuttaford	conter clockwise rocks. sold.
14:09	cemerick	robertstuttaford: glad it's working for you :-)
14:10	robertstuttaford	i just love how little code you're writing
14:10	robertstuttaford	compared to gclosure (sure, different sorts of things, of course), it's miles apart
14:10	_KY_	Does counterclockwise use lein?
14:10	antares_	_KY_: it does
14:10	robertstuttaford	it doesn't need to, from what i can tell
14:10	antares_	at least there is an option to use lein from withing ccw
14:11	cemerick	it's an optional thing; the beta support plugin is solid though
14:11	cemerick	you can use maven or manage everything manually if you're a masochist, I suppose
14:11	_KY_	S11001001: so I push back my string to a stream...?
14:13	nDuff	TimMc: certainly, but I'm not sure that protecting people from themselves when they're purposely bypassing safety mechanisms (in this case, namespacing) is a concept I can get behind.
14:13	TimMc	nDuff: What's the context on this, then? I can envision accidental collisions.
14:14	nDuff	TimMc: for ::EOF (in this case, :com.mefisto.wabbitmq/EOF)?
14:15	robertstuttaford	the ccw leiningen support. is it an eclipse plugin in the marketplace?
14:16	TimMc	nDuff: I mean, what is the nature of the data being streamed?
14:21	TimMc	Also, is there any possibility of attack? Do you always control the nature of the data flowing through the system, or can a third party choose it?
14:22	TimMc	Really, my main concern is cognitive load -- if you use a proper sentinal, you don't have to think about any of this.
14:22	gfredericks	(inc TimMc)
14:22	lazybot	⇒ 5
14:24	TimMc	The only downside I know of to (Object.) is that it doesn't support serialization. I think a randomly generated string could be an effective sentinal, a la MIME boundaries.
14:24	mefesto	TimMc: it would be used in the context of a BlockingQueue (as the terminator) so this value wouldn't be serialized
14:25	mefesto	I think either approach would work. (Object.) is just the way I've always done it
14:25	_KY_	How can I create an instance of this: http: ? docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/io/PushbackReader.html ?
14:25	nDuff	TimMc: Makes sense. In my particular use case, the data will always be packaged by my own code even if it originally came from elsewhere, but that's not necessarily universally guaranteed.
14:25	gfredericks	_KY_: (java.io.PushbackReader. ...)
14:26	_KY_	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/io/PushbackReader.html ?
14:26	TimMc	nDuff: I hear you on that.
14:26	gfredericks	(deftype Sentinal [name])
14:27	TimMc	heh
14:27	TimMc	I don't think it's bad to use ::EOF in your own code, when you control the data. I just object to it being used as a default in a lib.
14:28	sattvik	ibdknox: Just noticed yout got a 10K supporter: nice.
14:28	acheng	hi :) if I have a string that contains the name of a variable (like "foo") can my code redefine the root binding of the variable? the following doesn't seem to work for me: (def (symbol "foo") 5)
14:28	nDuff	Hmm. If the library is extensible enough that others could implement its protocols, you'd need to export the sentinel object, and be open to exactly the same form of attack...
14:28	nDuff	...though that doesn't really apply in the immediate case.
14:28	ibdknox	sattvik: yeah, an interesting one at that. :)
14:29	gfredericks	acheng: I think what you're trying to do is change the root binding of a var
14:29	gfredericks	so you need to get the var
14:29	ibdknox	sattvik: I don't want to make an official announcement til I talk with them first
14:29	S11001001	_KY_: pushbackreader is required for a read call, and stringreader adapts a string to the reader interface with position-state
14:29	ibdknox	I know of a few others that should come in soonish as well
14:30	gfredericks	acheng: for day-to-day things that is a messy and ill-advised thing to do
14:30	_KY_	S11001001: do I need to create a Reader instance first?
14:30	sattvik	ibdknox: Sounds great. I'm considering whether or not to up my contribution. It seems like you have a good chance of making your 200K.
14:31	S11001001	_KY_: er, yeah?
14:31	ibdknox	sattvik: it seems pretty likely, yeah :)
14:31	_KY_	Oh, you mean create a StringReader and feed it to PushbackReader?
14:32	acheng	gfredericks: but I wants it! :-P I'm trying to create an interactive web test framework. if the code discovers that some html element locator is obsolete, I want it to help the tester discover a working locator so tests can continue.... and redefining the var for all running code would work for my case
14:32	gtrak	ibdknox do you talk about dealing with side-effects in lighttable yet? I'm curious about it
14:33	_KY_	Sounds very complicated....
14:33	S11001001	it's really not
14:33	gfredericks	acheng: yeah if you're doing something meta like that it's probably justifiable. Check out the ns-resolve function
14:33	acheng	ok
14:33	S11001001	however, you will probably want to create a unit test for your function that asserts that the post-expression whitespace consumption is exactly what you mean
14:34	S11001001	(see READ and READ-PRESERVING-WHITESPACE in the Common Lisp spec for an explanation)
14:35	dnolen	ibdknox: wow!
14:36	_KY_	How exactly to create a PushbackReader?
14:36	TimMc	_KY_: gfredericks showed you, above
14:36	ibdknox	gtrak: nope, my thought is that the normal caveats that apply to a repl apply here as well. But I have some neat ideas about how that could be taken care of in a relatively clean and simple way
14:36	ibdknox	dnolen: :)
14:36	TimMc	14:16 < gfredericks> _KY_: (java.io.PushbackReader. ...)
14:37	_KY_	So I create a new Reader inside that?
14:38	TimMc	Or pass it one.
14:38	TimMc	(PushbackReader. foo) where foo is another Reader
14:38	acheng	gfredericks: hmm... def does not like its first argument to be a return value from ns-resolve
14:39	robertstuttaford	how do i get ccw/eclipse to complete ([{ for me?
14:39	ibdknox	gtrak: one way I was thinking about handling it was through a cool way of saying something is mocked in that context
14:39	gtrak	ibdknox: yea, it's interesting, pure functions are easy
14:40	gtrak	hadn't thought about mocks, that could make sense and encourage a good programming style anyway
14:40	ibdknox	gtrak: to be honest, while the "coolest" I think that'll be one of the least valuable feature across all the languages.
14:41	ibdknox	just wait til you see the demo I have for the week before :)
14:41	gtrak	before the kickstarter deadline? :-)
14:42	ibdknox	yeah
14:42	ibdknox	it involves that verbose snake language ;)
14:42	gtrak	exciting
14:42	gtrak	python you mean
14:43	ibdknox	yeah
14:43	mdeboard	ibdknox: Well you know how to raise money, aiming for Python
14:44	ibdknox	mdeboard: the goal is two-fold: prove that it works for a "real" language (the masses are dumb :p) and hit a larger audience
14:44	_KY_	Shouldn't I write (new java.io.PushbackReader)?
14:44	mdeboard	Yeah nothing wrong with that
14:44	robertstuttaford	not dumb, ignorant :)
14:44	ibdknox	haha fair enough
14:44	robertstuttaford	don't know many stupid python developers
14:45	gtrak	actually python is still a hard sell to the masses
14:45	mdeboard	robertstuttaford: Come over my way, I'll introduceyou.
14:45	robertstuttaford	-grin-
14:45	robertstuttaford	having said that, i only know like one or two and they're total polyglots
14:45	ibdknox	gtrak: Java would've been the best, also one of the hardest
14:45	ibdknox	and probably the least valuable really
14:45	ibdknox	the python crowd will be much more receptive to these sorts of things
14:46	gtrak	dynamic langs are much more amenable to being dealt with in terms of text
14:47	sattvik	Yeah, Light Table would have an awfully hard time competing with the likes of Eclipse for Java.
14:47	ibdknox	yep
14:47	ibdknox	not worth it :)
14:51	felideon	no point anymore!
14:51	pooya72	ibdknox: wouldn't a week before the deadline be to close to the deadline? for the python demo...
14:51	ibdknox	pooya72: based on previous kickstarters, no
14:51	ibdknox	most people decide within a week whether or not it'll be worth it
14:52	felideon	(i kid, i have no nrepl.el fork)
14:52	ibdknox	the key is for me to get it to as many people as I possibly can. If the demo is cool enough, that should happen somewhat on its own
14:52	pandeiro	ibdknox: do you have any trick for finding syntax errors when using noir's automatic view ns loading?
14:53	ibdknox	pandeiro: you usually get a stack on the first load
14:53	pandeiro	i am getting 'Parameter declaration hiccup.core/html should be a vector' but no lead where in my views it is
14:53	ibdknox	pandeiro: if you just save the file again and refresh you should see the trace
14:53	pooya72	ibdknox: yeah, good luck with it! glad you did the market research...
14:54	ibdknox	pandeiro: do you have a defpartial without a [] in it?
14:54	ibdknox	pandeiro: that's what that probably means
14:54	pandeiro	ibdknox: nice
14:55	pandeiro	ahh no i was trying to use defpartial with multiple arities
14:55	pandeiro	you can't do that? :)
14:56	ibdknox	ah, no, unfortunately it's not that smart
14:56	pandeiro	i also noticed recently defpartial also can't have a docstring... am i crazy for wanting to do that?
14:57	ibdknox	pandeiro: not at all, I think there's a magic macro somewhere that gives you the base stuff for creating your own specialized functions, but never looked into it - that might make a nice, relatively simple contribution to noir :)
14:58	pandeiro	ibdknox: awesome, i think that might be within my patching abilities :)
14:58	robertstuttaford	erk. how do i remove a parens with paredit-strict?
14:58	robertstuttaford	it won't let me kill one
14:58	gtrak	I always use M-s for that
14:58	dnolen_	mmarczyk: did you see my notes about satisfies?
14:59	carllerche	robertstuttaford: unbalanced??
14:59	lazybot	carllerche: Definitely not.
15:00	robertstuttaford	not unbalanced. thanks gtrak
15:00	TimMc	ah, splice?
15:01	acheng	robertstuttaford: if unbalanced and in emacs with paredit, you can set the mark, highlight, then cut.
15:01	gtrak	yea, that's like pretty much all I know how to use at this point :-), M-s and C-Right and C-Left
15:01	TimMc	gtrak: M-x paredit-convolute-sexp
15:01	TimMc	Learn it. Live it. Love it.
15:01	robertstuttaford	um. i'm using eclipse
15:01	carllerche	gtrak: what i did to learn paredit was read the docs for every emacs function that started w/ paredit-*
15:02	gtrak	carllerche: yea, I tried to learn emacs top-down once, haha, doesn't work for me
15:04	gtrak	convolute sexp? wtf is that
15:04	TimMc	Hard to describe. Basically, it allows you to turn a nested expression inside out.
15:04	gtrak	ha
15:05	TimMc	gtrak: If your point is at the beginning of line 12, here: https://refheap.com/paste/666#L-12 ... then that command puts the let outside the for.
15:05	gtrak	I see, so I could be somewhere within a sexp and decide I need a 'let', just type it and convolute?
15:06	TimMc	Sure, that could work. I've only used it where the nesting is already backwards. :-)
15:06	gtrak	that is pretty nice
15:06	amalloy	convolute is the best, man
15:06	amalloy	(fn [x] (let [y] ...)) => (let [y] (fn [x] ...))
15:07	amalloy	oh, TimMc already showed that. links are no fun to click on
15:07	gtrak	I bet there are some gymnast paredit users out there
15:08	acheng	hm. so how can I either change the root binding of a var or reset! an atom if all I have is a string that contains the name of it? neither of these work for me... (def (ns-resolve ns (symbol "foo")) new-value) .... (reset! (atom (ns-resolve *ns (symbol "foo"))) new-value)
15:09	gtrak	the name of it being the var bound to it?
15:09	amalloy	that sounds a lot like a thing you shouldn't really want to do. why do you have a string representing a var you don't know what it is?
15:09	acheng	see 18:22
15:10	amalloy	i wasn't here and am not in your time zone anyway...?
15:10	acheng	I'm trying to create an interactive
15:10	acheng	web test framework. if the code discovers that some html element
15:10	acheng	locator is obsolete, I want it to help the tester discover a working
15:10	acheng	locator so tests can continue.... and redefining the var for all
15:10	acheng	running code would work for my case
15:11	amalloy	i dunno. still sounds like a bad idea to me, but the function you want is alter-var-root
15:12	acheng	what is the better idea?
15:12	amalloy	i don't really understand what you're trying to do, so feel free to ignore my vague prejudices
15:15	acheng	this is for when a test that is driving a web browser tries something like (enter-text element-locator "hello") and the value for element-locator is now incorrect since some developer changed the web page a bit... my framework would pause the test and let the tester poke around and find the new locator... the alternative (which the rest of the selenium world lives with) is that the test dies, you get a stack trace, the browser and the
15:15	acheng	page are gone and the tester has to manually get to the same point in a new browser before he can poke around
15:18	acheng	(did i just kill the ambiance?) :-P
15:20	_KY_	PushbackReader can only unread an integer, doesn't accept a Clojure string, what's wrong?
15:22	TimMc	acheng: Sounds like a condition system.
15:23	acheng	TimMc: sure. once the tester knows the right value to use for element-locator, is there something better i should do instead of just changing the root binding for all running threads to use?
15:25	acheng	right now these locators are vars (instead of items in a map) so that the tester has symbol completion in emacs when hand-editing tests
15:26	TimMc	Sounds like you want something threadsafe, though.
15:26	_KY_	Ok.. I figured I have to use (char-array)... problem solved
15:26	acheng	why threadsafe? these locators are basically supposed to be correct constants for all threads to use as constants.
15:27	solussd__	does clojure 1.4 still depend on java 1.5 ?
15:27	acheng	the rest of the selenium world has x % of all their tests fail simply because some element locator was wrong.
15:27	jonaskoelker	what's the go-to parser generator for clojure?
15:30	acheng	TimMc: so if i have 5 threads and 3 of them pause because of the same incorrect element locator, i can fix the locator for all threads and tell each one to try their currently failed test step again. thread safe doesn't quite sound like the right thing for my use case
15:30	antares_	solussd__: clojure 1.4 should still support Java 5 as far as I know
15:31	solussd__	excellent. I thought I remembered reading somewhere it targeted 1.6, but maybe not.
15:31	solussd__
15:31	TimMc	acheng: Hmm, you might be able to get away with that. :-)
15:32	TimMc	acheng: I wonder if you can work a watcher in there somewhere.
15:32	acheng	TimMc: yes, but if there is a better way that doesn't go against people's instincts, then i shouldld consider it. hm... watcher...
15:32	dnolen_	jonaskoelker: not sure if there's a goto lib for that. https://github.com/richard-lyman/amotoen looked promising but hasn't been updated in 4 months.
15:34	hiredman	/win 15
15:35	hiredman	pardon me
15:35	_KY_	S11001001: thanks, your solution is ingeneous =)
15:36	S11001001	_KY_: you're welcome, and congrats on implementing the generalization of read-string
15:41	fdaoud	ibdknox: I showed LT to a friend of mine and he said, "meh." Can't win 'em all, I guess. BUT he thought it was really cool that you met Sussman. Go figure :)
15:42	fdaoud	what does ibdknox mean, by the way?
15:42	acheng	TimMc: I think I'll be ok without a watcher. All threads should use the new value and they don't need to know that it's new. (But if it sounds like I'm missing something, I'm all ears)
15:52	felideon	fdaoud: I said 'meh' until I tried setting up a Clojure environment. :D
15:52	pandeiro	is it possible to expand a sequence into separate forms?
15:53	amalloy	if i've understood the question, pandeiro, no
15:53	pandeiro	amalloy: and i also can't do something like (apply fn [params body]) right?
15:54	mefesto	nDuff: ping
15:54	raek	pandeiro: you can rewrite the expression in arbitrary ways using a macro
15:55	Licenser	I am so torn apart, I have a project in clojure that compile to node.js but the whole compiling to node is a horrible (especially since the environment I deploy it is very restricitive) thing and node's stuff isn't fun either (gazillion callbacks). So I am pondering of rewriting the code in erlang but then agian it is often so beautiful to write in clojure -.-
15:55	fdaoud	felideon: depends on the environment you tried to set up..?
15:55	pandeiro	raek: yeah i thought about destructuring but there could be a variable number of items in the seq, not sure how to do it
15:57	raek	pandeiro: can you show an example of what your input is and what the desired result is?
15:57	raek	but yes, you cannot apply special forms and macros
15:58	felideon	fdaoud: slime+emacs with an existing slime config
15:58	emezeske	Licenser: What's so hard about compiling clojurescript to node?
15:59	gtrak	how can you reference the 'class' of a record without importing it?
15:59	felideon	fdaoud: granted, I had no idea who Chris Granger was and it was just a blog post. when I saw he was serious and had a track record then my interest was piqued.
15:59	pandeiro	raek: i am thinking about how to get all of fn/defn's argument parsing goodness (multiple arities, docstrings, meta) with a custom function defining macro
15:59	fdaoud	felideon: ah. I set up vimclojure using https://github.com/daveray/vimclojure-easy, nice.
16:00	nDuff	mefesto: pong
16:00	Licenser	emezeske that error messages are cryptic, the code is close impossible to debug if something goes wrong in runtime, and it seems node.js programmers get payed per callback function not per hour
16:00	Licenser	also bundeling all the required libraries with the project is a hackery
16:00	emezeske	Licenser: Oh, so it's not compiling that's the problem, it's after that
16:00	raek	pandeiro: so you want something like (my-defn <whatever>) to be equivalent to, say, (def (some-operation (fn <whatever>)))?
16:00	Licenser	emezeske unless somethign goes wrong during the compilation :)
16:01	dnolen_	Licenser: you could submit a patch to add source mapping to ClojureScript ;) then you could debug your running node.js app w/ a browser
16:01	amalloy	pandeiro: clojure.tools.macro/name-with-attributes
16:02	dnolen_	Licenser: also you could adapt cjfrisz TCO code to do gen callbacks automatically.
16:02	Licenser	dnolen_ I would if I had 42 hour days!
16:03	Licenser	but I first would patch in something like line number/file names in compiler errors :P
16:03	dnolen_	Licenser: that's what source mapping does.
16:03	Licenser	there is nothing like searching 42 (the number isn't made up :P) source files for a syntax error
16:04	gtrak	likewise, how do you extend a protocol to a record in another namespace?
16:05	Licenser	dnolen_ doesn't source mapping applie to run time code?
16:05	dnolen_	Licenser: yes, are you talking about ClojureScript compile time errors?
16:05	Licenser	dnolen_ both
16:06	Licenser	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: let requires an even number of forms in binding vector <- for example
16:06	Licenser	it would really be cool to see where :P
16:06	dnolen_	Licenser: patch
16:07	Licenser	there we are with the time problem again
16:07	dnolen_	Licenser: if you use CLJS master, I've included file + line number for some common mistakes.
16:07	Licenser	oh that is cool
16:07	mefesto	nDuff: been playing around with a few ideas. could i get your opinion on something?
16:07	dnolen_	Licenser: you're probably wasting more time hunting errors.
16:08	Licenser	heh there you might be right
16:08	daniel	maybe someone here can help me with this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10435310/ray-attacks-on-a-bitboard
16:09	Licenser	but the compile time errors are just very frustrating not time consuming :) paredit / compiling often is a good way to protect against them most of the time
16:09	dnolen_	Licenser: so you can subject yourself to those frustrations over and over again or do something about it.
16:10	Licenser	dnolen_ I hate to admit but you are right about that
16:10	emezeske	Licenser: So your options are cljs on node, or erlang, but not just regular old clojure?
16:10	Licenser	devn that is a good plan
16:11	gfredericks	does implementing the rules of chess in core.logic sound totally insane?
16:11	devn	heh
16:11	devn	gfredericks: not really
16:12	gfredericks	okay.
16:12	Licenser	emezeske I am working on something for SmartOS (the hypervisor part) and I don't want to demand extra dependencies. cljs was my first pick since a lot of the libraries there are already written in node, also I don't require extra dependencies safe for packing a directory with some additional libs. Erlang would be a choice since I write some other parts of the code in erlang already and also OTP applications bundle in a senfcontained manner -
16:12	Licenser	not forcing any kind of dependencies
16:12	fdaoud	gfredericks: "N-Queens problem? Too easy!"
16:12	gtrak	hmm, it seems rather warty that have you to java-import a record to extend a protocol to it
16:13	devn	gfredericks: http://www.fraber.de/games/chess/
16:13	gfredericks	fdaoud: I'm interested in running chess backwards
16:13	fdaoud	gfredericks: "mate check! .... .... ... e4 to pawn."
16:13	daniel	lol
16:14	gfredericks	fdaoud: I'd like to be able to concoct bizarre positions and ask the computer if they are possible to reach
16:14	fdaoud	gfredericks: oic, that's interesting
16:15	amalloy	gtrak: you have to java-import a record to do anything at all to it, so...
16:15	emezeske	Licenser: I see. One thing I'd throw out there is "lein uberjar"; AFAIK it makes a totally self-contained thing that you can just run with java. Maybe not feasible for your situation, though.
16:15	gfredericks	e.g., I wonder if it's possible to swap the positions of the two sets of pawns
16:15	Licenser	emezeske yea true, but it still requires me to deploy java with it
16:15	gtrak	amalloy: well we have factory functions now
16:16	Licenser	also clojure combines the disadvantages of erlang and clojurescript /in this case/ (as silly as it sounds) it brings some advantages over clojurescript too true
16:16	gtrak	you just need to require the ns to use the factory function
16:16	gfredericks	gtrak: would you like if (defrecord Foo []) included a (def Foo-type Foo)?
16:16	gfredericks	(would that work?)
16:17	fdaoud	gfredericks: cool, so to test your solution, any given problem from a chess book that refers to a game that really took place, should work with your program.
16:17	gtrak	something like that, or just maybe (def Foo Foo)?
16:18	gfredericks	fdaoud: yep; and certain situations you can prove to be impossible should not work, in some manner or another
16:18	gfredericks	gtrak: oh hmmmmmmm; that looks real weird but maybe would work.
16:18	dnolen_	Licenser: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-237
16:18	gfredericks	probably would screw a lot of things up though
16:18	gtrak	I just get annoyed it screws up my M-. nav to use java imports
16:19	gtrak	plus it's just gross
16:19	dnolen_	Licenser: looking more closely it looks like ns is not being communicated to the various macros.
16:20	Licenser	Oi
16:24	gfredericks	I'm not sure I get why the conde clauses are considered to have a "head" and a "tail"
16:24	gfredericks	what makes the head different from the remaining parts?
16:25	dnolen_	gfredericks: it makes a difference when using conda\|u
16:25	gfredericks	dnolen_: but not conde?
16:26	dnolen_	gfredericks: yes, makes little difference there.
16:26	gfredericks	are conda\|u part of minikanren? I'm now wondering why the reasoned schemer makes the distinction
16:26	dnolen_	gfredericks: it does
16:26	dnolen_	gfredericks: conda\|u are described in TRS
16:26	gfredericks	okay; sense has been made; thx
16:34	Raynes	ibdknox: Dude! You're 30 thousand away.
16:34	Raynes	If you don't make it at this point, the world is not fair.
16:35	dnolen_	Licenser: fixing now
16:35	ibdknox	Raynes: it's very unlikely it doesn't :)
16:35	Raynes	ibdknox: Someone pledged 10k!
16:36	ibdknox	yeah, hopefully I'll announce them tomorrow :)
16:36	fdaoud	Raynes: if he reaches $200,005 and stops there, I'm reducing my contrib by $10 at the last second.
16:36	Raynes	fdaoud: lulz
16:36	dnolen_	Licenser: BOOM, https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/29b85c289feaac6b4feca91e24d08cdc88ea7da1
16:37	Licenser	dnolen_ sweet :) you are great and I feel ashamed
16:37	dnolen_	Licenser: make sure you use Clojure 1.4.0 in your project
16:40	TimMc	gfredericks: There are also "implausible" situations -- board positions that are reachable if the two players cooperate, but will never happen because they involve one or both players opening themselves to attack.
16:41	TimMc	So you'll want to implement a crude chess AI in core.logic as well.
16:41	gfredericks	TimMc: those I'm not interested in distinguishing from reachable
16:41	gfredericks	since there's no firm definition there
16:42	TimMc	So, as long as no one moves into check or whatever?
16:42	gfredericks	any legal sequence of moves, right
16:42	TimMc	Does chess allow passing on a turn?
16:42	gfredericks	programming chess involves a lot of edge cases :/ a move can almost always be represented as a pair of squares
16:42	gfredericks	TimMc: nope
16:42	gfredericks	$google chess zugzwang
16:42	lazybot	[Zugzwang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugzwang
16:43	TimMc	You could probably explain that term to me before WIkipedia loads.
16:43	gfredericks	it is a position where you'd prefer passing if that were legal
16:43	technomancy	I've been wanting to finish up a go implementation since clojurewest
16:44	gfredericks	I bet go rules are a lot simpler than chess rules
16:44	TimMc	hella yes
16:44	TimMc	You can play Crosscram instead. :-P https://github.com/baznex/crosscram
16:45	TimMc	Some of us at BAZNEX have been writing bots to compete at that game.
16:45	fdaoud	gfredericks: zugzwang, that's interesting.
16:46	gfredericks	fdaoud: the Trebuchet shown in that article is what I think of as the canonical example
16:47	gfredericks	maybe just because it's easy to remember
16:49	gtrak	when we say local extension of protocols, does that mean only for your namespace, or for all code that you call from your namespace as well?
16:52	technomancy	gfredericks: the cool thing about nearly any board game is that it's just a reduce of the board state over a seq of moves
16:52	technomancy	which helps a lot for calculating possible move trees, etc
16:53	gfredericks	technomancy: it's determining legality that gets hairy
16:53	technomancy	totes
16:53	technomancy	I guess with ko you have to keep one past board state when calculating the legality of a move
16:53	gfredericks	mostly it's a few weird moves and also the logic of check
16:54	technomancy	plus you have to have access to the past move to detect two successive passes for endgame
16:54	gfredericks	technomancy: is this go? or something called "ko" that I haven't heard of?
16:54	technomancy	ko is one of the rules of go
16:55	technomancy	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(game)#The_ko_rule
16:55	Raynes	amalloy is better than me at Go. :(
16:55	gfredericks	xmonad will not let me select that link
16:55	Raynes	He forced me to play him several games at the Conj. I
16:55	Raynes	lost all of them.
16:56	gfredericks	I guess I can google it
16:56	Raynes	I went to my room and cried into a pillow.
16:56	technomancy	gfredericks: xmonad or your irc client?
16:56	gfredericks	technomancy: something between xmonad and urxvt
16:56	amalloy	you did that every night, though. i just tried to cheer you up afterwards with go
16:56	Raynes	His IRC client unless xmonad took away his mouse.
16:56	gfredericks	I cannot select anything in the urxvt window
16:56	technomancy	gfredericks: are you using urxvt-perls?
16:56	mmarczyk	dnolen_: yeah, I've seen your comments -- will try and act on them too :-)
16:56	technomancy	gfredericks: highly recommended
16:56	gfredericks	technomancy: is that a debian package?
16:57	technomancy	gfredericks: I'd link you to the github page, but you know... chicken/egg
16:57	fdaoud	Raynes: and while you cried, amalloy ate a pint of bacon in victory.
16:57	amalloy	technomancy: i think a lot of board games are a reduce of the board over a seq of moves...except most games have one or two niggling exceptions that ruin everything
16:57	technomancy	gfredericks: url-select in particular
16:57	technomancy	amalloy: yeah, I think you can handle most exceptions by putting metadata on the board
16:58	gfredericks	technomancy: k cool thx for the tip
16:58	gfredericks	the chess FEN notation has a few extra pieces of information to capture the niggling exceptions
16:58	amalloy	metadata doesn't feel right, since most cases will need the metadata every time; i'd rather reduce over a map, one of whose keys is the board
16:58	gfredericks	e.g., who is allowed to castle
16:59	gfredericks	amalloy: that's how I'm doing it. a position has a board
16:59	technomancy	amalloy: the cool thing about reducing over the board is that if the board's big enough then pprinting it is all you need for display
16:59	technomancy	very convenient in the repl
17:02	gfredericks	technomancy: probably a lot of the niggling things aren't typically displayed
17:03	technomancy	gfredericks: they certainly aren't in a physical game =)
17:03	technomancy	well, captured pieces would be actually; hmm
17:04	gfredericks	in chess those aren't relevant
17:07	devn	gfredericks: im jealous of your xmonad
17:07	gfredericks	it's buggy
17:07	devn	wha!?
17:08	gfredericks	I wouldn't uninstall it though
17:08	dnolen_	mmarczyk: excellent
17:08	gfredericks	devn: there there now, I'm sure it's not technically the proven xmonad which is buggy
17:08	devn	i have never crashed xmonad, but ive seen it behave weird depending on the kind of window and/or get crazy when i tricked out my config with all manner of layouts
17:08	technomancy	xmonad has no bugs. ghc has proven this.
17:09	devn	lol
17:09	gfredericks	devn: if you have used xmonad then why are you jealous of mine?
17:09	devn	because im on OSX
17:09	mmarczyk	dnolen_: your changes to satisfies? rock, btw
17:09	mmarczyk	dnolen_: the WIP patch rebased onto current master w/ added bool-expr hint actually seems like a perf regression when compared to master :-/
17:10	dnolen_	mmarczyk: yeah the hasOwnProperty test was a terrible idea and I take full responsibility :)
17:10	gfredericks	devn: I'm about to be given a mac at the new job; will look into installing linux on it and installing a tux sticker over the apple logo
17:10	mmarczyk	dnolen_: :-)
17:11	devn	gfredericks: ha :)
17:12	technomancy	gfredericks: I was using xmonad/debian on a vbox on a macbook for a few days and I could never get over having meta in the wrong place
17:12	gfredericks	technomancy: you could not rebind the keys?
17:13	technomancy	I couldn't figure out how to do it in OS X, but you could probably do it just inside the VM
17:13	technomancy	I guess you can retrain your thumb if it's the only machine you're using though
17:13	mmarczyk	dnolen_: so if I understand correctly, the next step is to change protocol methods to do the bit-and thing like satisfies? does? the consumer-facing wrappers (seq, first etc.) already do nothing except nil check & delegate
17:13	gfredericks	that would not be the case
17:13	hiredman	my brain rebels against the idea of getting a non-apple laptop, then I think I just need emacs and a browser, then I remeber I am using a bluetooth headset to listen to music, and the back and forward buttons on the headset "just work" and wonder how many hours that would take
17:14	lynaghk`	technomancy: you seem to hack the hardware a lot. Any interest in taking a month or two sabbatical from work to CNC the ultimate laptop out of bamboo + eInk?
17:14	dnolen_	mmarczyk: I don't think protocol methods can benefit.
17:14	gfredericks	hiredman: gotta pick your battles; can't be an idealist about everything
17:14	technomancy	lynaghk`: you should have caught be before I got a new laptop yesterday =)
17:14	dnolen_	mmarczyk: next steps are just reviewing which things are better implemented by following RT.java's lead.
17:15	mmarczyk	dnolen_: well currently (seq ...) calls actually seem to take a hit
17:15	mmarczyk	dnolen_: (seq ...) being just (when coll (-seq coll))
17:15	hiredman	gfredericks: and listening to daft punk on a wireless headset is the most futuristic thing in the world
17:15	lynaghk`	technomancy: this one would be a year or two out anyway.
17:16	lynaghk`	technomancy: bamboo + aluminium + eInk. Kickstarter will flip its shit =P
17:16	technomancy	renewable!
17:16	mmarczyk	dnolen_: but yeah, I'll try benchmarking the RT-like reimpl of first & a few other fns
17:17	TimMc	Only if it is farmed bamboo.
17:17	TimMc	Isn't China running out of the stuff?
17:17	lynaghk`	TimMC: each bamboo will be lovingly raised at urban farms in PDX. They will have names.
17:18	TimMc	:-)
17:18	TimMc	lynaghk`: Has to have the same screen as the XO-1
17:18	emezeske	lynaghk`: Can I visit the bamboo farm? I want to see where the bamboos are raised
17:18	dnolen_	mmarczyk: look at RT.java seq
17:18	TimMc	I've never seen anything else like it.
17:19	dnolen_	mmarczyk: if we have a seq we don't need to call -seq
17:19	mmarczyk	dnolen_: right, of course
17:20	dnolen_	mmarczyk: so many code paths will get lighter if we have satisfies? competitive with JS instanceof
17:20	mmarczyk	dnolen_: sounds exciting :-)
17:20	lynaghk`	emezeske: frequent visitors scare the bamboo! We have fairly-traded team of old Asiatic men that nurture them.
17:20	dnolen_	mmarczyk: under advanced compilation we can store all the known protocols into partitions of 32
17:21	emezeske	lynaghk`: hahaha :)
17:21	dnolen_	mmarczyk: types will store a int value for each partition they belong to.
17:21	mmarczyk	dnolen_: I see what you mean
17:21	mmarczyk	dnolen_: ok, I'll work that into the next patch
17:22	jodaro	free range organic bamboo?
17:22	mmarczyk	ok, need to dash for now, will be back with some new code soon
17:37	jodaro	heh
17:38	jodaro	there are no listings on functionaljobs.com
17:38	amalloy	jodaro: they forgot to make the page mutable
17:38	jodaro	heh
17:39	jodaro	i was considering posting one there
17:39	jodaro	i can't decide if no other listings is good or bad for that, though
17:40	jodaro	also, a little bit of pickled ginger with a dab of wasabi that just happens to have some of my sriracha and soy sauce concoction on it ...
17:43	madsy	Stupid question: Why doesn't lazy-seq work together with recur? Clojure tells me that it's not a tail call when it is at the tail position :)
17:44	madsy	I assume I'm supposed to using actual recursion (by function name), but I'm confused over the semantics vs the syntax.
17:45	hiredman	lazy-seq wraps the body in a thunk (0-arg fn) which means recur won't work
17:46	TimMc	&(lazy-seq (recur))
17:46	lazybot	Execution Timed Out!
17:50	amalloy	madsy: you could use lazy-loop: https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/seq.clj#L106
17:54	lynaghk`	dnolen: @krees from Periscopic just signed on to our lil' party.
17:55	lynaghk`	er, dnolen_.
17:55	Chousuke	madsy: if you have a function that constructs a lazy sequence recursively, then you don't need recur for the recursion (and it wouldn't work anyway, since recur is not lazy)
17:55	dnolen_	lynaghk`: cool!
17:56	dnolen_	lynaghk`: you know all the cool datavis folks I see :)
17:56	lynaghk`	dnolen_: do you work with jashkenas? you should invite him---I haven't emailed him yet
17:56	Chousuke	madsy: that's because if you're using lazy-seq right, calling the function does nothing but return an object representing the rest of the sequence.
17:56	dnolen_	lynaghk`: I do is there a specific idea behind this panel thing you want to put together?
17:57	lynaghk`	dnolen_: I'd like to keep it a little closer to the ground w.r.t. actionable tech for people who will be listening
17:58	lynaghk`	dnolen_: I'm all about big ideas, but I like to be able to have something to bring home and play with at the end of a talk. Personally, I'd be interested hearing about the intersection of data/programming with storytelling and journalism
17:58	madsy	Chousuke: Yep, thanks :)
17:58	Chousuke	madsy: so when it looks like you're "looping" due to the recursive call you're actually not because no work is done until the thing that the function returns is evaluated
17:59	gfredericks	is the core.logic API documented anywhere, or do I just look through the source file?
17:59	madsy	Yeah, recur turns into iteration which does't stop until it takes a non-recursive branch. While lazy-seq only does a recursive call based on the realization of the seq.
18:00	Chousuke	yes, and by the time the evaluation happens the original call has already returned
18:00	Raynes	gfredericks: In dnolen_'s head, most likely.
18:00	Chousuke	so there is no stack growth issue
18:04	gfredericks	can logic variables represent numbers?
18:05	dnolen_	gfredericks: very poorly, you want cKanren
18:06	dnolen_	gfredericks: which isn't for representing numbers relationally.
18:06	gfredericks	hmm. well I probably don't have to.
18:09	rmunn	I think what I'm having is a Java issue rather than a Clojure issue per se, but when I do "lein2 run" on my Clojure+SWT project, I get an error: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: Cannot load 32-bit SWT libraries on 64-bit JVM
18:09	rmunn	My project.clj specifies both [org.eclipse/swt-gtk-linux-x86_64 "3.5.2"] and [org.eclipse/swt-gtk-linux-x86 "3.5.2"] so I should have both 32-bit and 64-bit libraries available
18:10	rmunn	Any idea why it's not selecting the 64-bit library? This only seems to happen intermittently -- sometimes it runs correctly -- and I haven't been able to pin down a pattern as to when it selects the 32-bit or the 64-bit library. I certainly haven't been changing my project.clj in between invocations of "lein2 run"!
18:10	dnolen_	rmunn: did you try removing the other one?
18:10	dnolen_	rmunn: why do you need to specify both?
18:11	hiredman	rmunn: most likely both jars define the same classes, so depending on the order they end up in the classpath it loads one or the other
18:11	rmunn	I was hoping to build a single version of the program that could run on both 32 and 64 bit machines. Am I going about that the wrong way?
18:12	hiredman	it's really a swt issue, they may just expect you to build a 32bit and 64bit version of your library
18:13	technomancy	rmunn: what you want is possible, it's just an issue with the way your dependencies are packaged
18:13	technomancy	the native support for Leiningen is not well-documented unfortunately
18:15	rmunn	technomancy: Any idea how I should be specifying this? I grok Lisp a little bit, but my Java experience is almost non-existent so far.
18:19	gtrak	maybe use whatever dependency makes sense for the dev-dependency and then do some packaging tricks at the end?
18:21	rmunn	Okay, now I'm really confused. I just removed the 32-bit dependency lines out of my project.clj (so it now specifies only [org.eclipse/swt-gtk-linux-x86_64 "3.5.2"]) and I'm still getting the same "Cannot load 32-bit SWT libraries on 64-bit JVM" error. Weird.
18:22	technomancy	rmunn: I'm not 100% sure that the native bits will be removed correctly when a dependency is removed; try an explicit lein clean?
18:22	Raynes	I'd also like to point out that Swing is pretty approachable since https://github.com/daveray/seesaw.
18:23	rmunn	Nope -- "lein2 clean" followed by "lein2 run" with only the x86_64 libraries in :dependencies is still erroring. This is utterly bizarre.
18:24	rmunn	I wish I could use Seesaw, but it doesn't yet work with SWT, and Swing just looks too ugly for me to want to inflict its UI on my users. (If I ever get this project finished, that is.)
18:24	Raynes	SWT isn't ugly? :o
18:24	Raynes	Swing has a lot of different look and feels that might help.
18:25	rmunn	At least it looks native, which I haven't found to be the case even with Swing's allegedly "native" look & feel.
18:25	Raynes	Fair enough, I forgot that SWT used native stuff.
18:25	Raynes	Too bad they suck at maven.
18:26	rmunn	My target audience (if that's the right term) for this project is naive users, who don't care about the internals of the computer but just want to use it as a tool to get work done. So the less distracting I can make my UI (and the more similar I can make it to the other programs they've already learned), the better.
18:27	cmcbride	I thought swing could mock a native UI http://www.exampledepot.com/egs/javax.swing/LookFeelNative.html
18:27	Raynes	"..which I haven't found to be the case even with Swing's allegedly "native" look & feel."
18:28	rmunn	Raynes: Exactly. I tried the native look and feel, and it didn't look a thing like the rest of the windows on my screen. (Ubuntu Precise with Unity, though I expect most of my users will be running Windows).
18:29	Raynes	Ubuntu with unity looks like shit anyways, so doesn't it fit right in? :P
18:29	rmunn	I should probably check what Swing's native L&F looks like on Windows before I commit too heavily to SWT, of course.
18:30	rmunn	Raynes: No kidding. I'd love to go back to GNOME 2, but I do have to support users who will be on Unity, so I'd better use it myself so I know how to answer their "How do I do this task that used to be so simple?" questions...
18:30	gtrak	maybe try the qt bindings
18:30	gtrak	jambi
18:30	Raynes	Yeah, I understand. I'm certainly not criticizing you. Just being silly. :)
18:31	Raynes	Jambi makes REPL development a pain in the ass.
18:31	rmunn	Raynes: I didn't take it as criticism... though since you couldn't see the big grin on my face as I wrote that, I can see how you could have taken it that way. :-)
18:32	rmunn	Anyway, back on topic:
18:32	rmunn	technomancy: Does Leiningen have a --debug flag that I could use to see more output as I run "lein2 run"?
18:33	rmunn	"lein2 version" prints "Leiningen 2.0.0-preview3 on Java 1.6.0_24 OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM", in case you're wondering
18:34	rmunn	Trying "lein run" (version 1.7.1) instead of "lein2 run" gives me the same java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError, too.
18:35	rmunn	I think I'm going to give up for the day and see if I have any bright ideas in the morning.
18:35	gtrak	rmunn: if you want to package your own dependency, you can, using maven, not sure if they messed up somehow
18:35	rmunn	Is this IRC channel logged anywhere, BTW? I'd like to see if anyone comes up with the solution while I'm gone
18:36	hiredman	~logs
18:36	clojurebot	logs is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
18:36	rmunn	hiredman: thx
18:36	Raynes	rmunn: http://www.raynes.me/logs/irc.freenode.net/clojure/
18:36	Raynes	These are more greppable.
18:37	rmunn	Raynes: thanks also.
18:41	ieure	technomancy, Known issue that Clojure 1.3 / contrib 1.1.0 / lein 1.7.1 / lein-swank 1.4.4. don't play well together?
18:42	ieure	Running `lein swank' produces Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.RestFn.<init>(I)V
18:42	ieure	If you remove contrib from :dependencies it works fine
18:42	technomancy	ieure: yeah, monolithic contrib is hell of deprecated
18:42	technomancy	clojurebot: contrib?
18:42	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
18:42	technomancy	ieure: any particular namespace you're interested in?
18:42	ieure	technomancy, Logging.
18:43	technomancy	clojurebot: google clojure.tools.logging
18:43	clojurebot	First, out of 21000 results is:
18:43	clojurebot	clojure/tools.logging · GitHub
18:43	clojurebot	https://github.com/clojure/tools.logging
18:43	ieure	Sucks. I heard it was getting broken up but it's non-obvious from googling
18:43	technomancy	ieure: bingo
18:43	ieure	Yeah, I see it now.
18:43	technomancy	yeah, it's definitely an annoyance, but the old contrib was the Wrong Thing
18:44	technomancy	old misleading docs are the bane of any high-churn young language
18:46	rmunn	technomancy: Yeah, one of my biggest problems in learning clojure has been figuring out on my own where half the stuff is. I'd love more in-depth docs on Leiningen, for example. Not that that's a hint or anything. ;-)
18:47	jodaro	ieure: this was helpful to me re logging
18:47	jodaro	http://corfield.org/blog/post.cfm/clojure-and-log4j
18:47	technomancy	rmunn: what specifically about leiningen? have you read through `lein help tutorial`?
18:47	ieure	This has been the single most helpful piece of leiningen documentation: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/preview/sample.project.clj
18:48	ieure	Everything else has been very straightforward.
18:48	technomancy	ieure: also available via `lein help sample` fwiw
18:48	ieure	But finding explanations of what stuff can go in project.clj is kind of a pain.
18:48	ieure	Okay.
18:49	technomancy	ieure: you mean the comments in the sample are too terse, or it's hard to guess what they're called?
18:49	hiredman	s/log4j/logback/ of course
18:49	ieure	technomancy, No, the sample is fine. Locating the sample is not.
18:50	ieure	Looks like the situation has improved lately.
18:50	technomancy	yeah, we should probably mention `lein help sample` in more places
18:50	ieure	Search for "leiningen project.clj options" takes you right there.
18:50	technomancy	you're probably more likely to refer to it if you don't have to context-switch out of your terminal in some cases
18:53	rmunn	technomancy: Missed seeing the tutorial somehow blush, so most of my questions will probably be answered there.
18:53	technomancy	rmunn: open to suggestions on how to make it more obvious if you have any
18:55	technomancy	ieure: actually even just "project.clj" in "I'm feeling lucky" is enough; cool
18:55	rmunn	technomancy: The only suggestion I have right now is that lein's way of documenting command-line arguments looks really odd to someone coming to Clojure from another language. It wasn't until I got used to seeing Clojure function definitions that I understood what that "Arguments: ([project-name] [template project-name & args])" line in "lein help new" meant.
18:57	ieure	technomancy, Yeah, I feel like when I have looked in the past I have tried more specific things which return less relevant results.
18:58	rmunn	Oh, and another suggestion. I run "lein help new" and see "Subtasks available: default, template, plugin". This makes me think that "lein help new default" will tell me about the general project template, while "lein help new template" will tell me about the meta-template system. But "lein help new default" gives "Wrong number of arguments to help task", which is unhelpful to a Clojure newbie.
18:59	rmunn	Anyway, it's almost 6:00 PM here and I should be heading home. So I just wanted to close with thanks for making such a useful tool.
19:01	technomancy	ieure: yeah in general I'm the last person to suggest blindly following google results due to the magnitude of harm that causes with swank
19:02	technomancy	just nice that it is improving on this particular metric
19:02	technomancy	rmunn: yeah, we need to make subtask help work better. that stuff is pretty new
19:03	technomancy	rmunn: for the args in general though I think following Clojure's conventions for arglists etc makes the most sense. Leiningen's audience by definition needs to know some level of Clojure
19:05	gfredericks	clojure prereqs: clojure
19:05	gfredericks	^ this is what is meant by "clojure in clojure"
19:09	gfredericks	(run* [q] (fresh [x] (== {q 12} {:foo x})))
19:09	gfredericks	=> ()
19:09	gfredericks	so logic variables can only be map values?
19:13	hiredman	gfredericks: that seems kind of odd
19:13	gfredericks	I was imagining some fuzzy performance justifications for it
19:14	hiredman	oh, but actually that makes sense
19:14	gfredericks	perhaps the concrete-keys case is much more trivial to implement/reason-about
19:15	hiredman	gfredericks: I don't think what you want there is possible
19:15	gfredericks	I also considered that but haven't thought of why that might be
19:15	gfredericks	my special case ought to be possible, right?
19:15	hiredman	because the two maps cannot be unified
19:16	hiredman	there is no sort of "toe hold" of similarity to work with
19:17	hiredman	I suggest using tuples or calling seq on your maps (to make a seq of tuples)
19:19	gfredericks	this wasn't part of a larger thing; I didn't know maps/sets were used, so I was seeing what you could do with them
19:20	hiredman	so map is like an ordered set of pairs
19:20	hiredman	so the unifier can't tell from {q 12} and {:foo 1} that they are unifiable
19:21	gfredericks	oh sets are funny too: (run* [q] (fresh [x] (== #{q x} #{4 5})))
19:21	hiredman	#{[q 12]} #{[:foo 1]}
19:21	gfredericks	=> (5)
19:21	hiredman	it make just call seq on sets (which seems like a bad idea)
19:21	hiredman	may
19:22	gfredericks	that would certainly explain that result
19:47	hiredman	gfredericks: thinking about it it seems like you could unify maps like that, if you unifier could return multiple unifications, but I'm not sure
19:49	gfredericks	not knowing much at all about the implementation, it seems odd in the context of core.logic that the unifier can't
19:49	hiredman	which is not a feature I've seen in a unifier (not that I've seen many)
19:49	gfredericks	but perhaps not
19:50	hiredman	but there maybe other tradeoffs for that kind of thing, makes unifying maps much less exact
19:51	gfredericks	an unacceptably-awfully-performant way to do it would be given two maps, fail if different sizes; then (doseq [m1' (permutations m1)] (== m1' m2))
19:52	gfredericks	replace doseq with the logic version :)
19:52	hiredman	yeah, you'd get a possibly much larger search tree
19:52	gfredericks	I only just started on logic programming a week ago.
19:53	gfredericks	thinking about it, there might be a decent-performing way to get those semantics...
19:54	hiredman	it's neat, I played with core.logic a little a few times, but writing the datalog (outside of core.logic) really made the nature of the thing clear, searching a tree
19:55	gfredericks	I feel like I understand the components well enough, but doing anything non-contrived with them has been not easy
19:57	gfredericks	e.g., I feel like I ought to be able to write a program which, given a positive integer, returns s-expressions involving only + and *
19:58	gfredericks	I'm not sure if you can work with numbers that way in core.logic though
20:07	Frozenlock	I'm playing around with Incanter and notice that some functions use FileOutputStream (seemingly bypassing any binding attempt on out). Is there a way to redirect the stream?
20:39	Frozenlock	How does one redifine a function from another namespace?
20:40	Frozenlock	*redefine
20:40	gfredericks	alter-var-root
20:40	Frozenlock	I'll try that immediately, thanks :)
20:41	ibdknox	technomancy: does lein2 not respect ^{:skip-aot true}?
20:42	dnolen	mmarczyk: I wouldn't bother w/ benchmarking Rhino for this stuff. Rhino is indicative of JS performance circa early 2000s.
20:42	technomancy	ibdknox: not as far as I know
20:42	technomancy	I mean, if it doesn't, it's a big
20:42	technomancy	bug
20:43	ibdknox	hm, I just switched and I'm getting the aot'd compiler mess again :(
20:43	mmarczyk	dnolen: yeah, guess so; just replied to your comment to the effect that I'll be doing some benchmarks on node
20:45	mmarczyk	dnolen: btw, did you have time to look at the 232 & 234 patches? + 225 is a bug fix, I think
20:46	dnolen	mmarczyk: 232 & 234 I'd rather not apply until the satisfies stuff gets sorted out. It'll only slow things down.
20:47	mmarczyk	dnolen: well, depends on the use case -- the linear helpers actually roll over to the "direct" impl which the current default does not do
20:47	mmarczyk	dnolen: oh, sorry, reduce might actually do that
20:48	mmarczyk	dnolen: but anyway, that's fair enough
20:50	dnolen	mmarczyk: any call to satisfies? slows down many code paths
20:55	wei_	I'm having trouble configuring log4j for a java library I'm using - it seems to always send messages to (and clutter up) the console, when I'd like to suppress them or send them to a file. any ideas on configuration? I'm using clojure.tools.logging and clj-logging-config.
20:55	cshell	what's in your log4j.properties?
20:58	mmarczyk	dnolen: so do you think the satisfies?-based versions can be made to be faster than extend-type default ?
20:58	wei_	clj-logging-config does the job of a properties file I believe, and I have (set-loggers! :root {:level :error :out "/tmp/errors.log"}). going to try additivity: false so my included library doesn't inherit any settings..
20:59	dgrnbrg	How do I determine is a symbol is namespace qualified?
20:59	mmarczyk	&(namespace 'foo)
20:59	lazybot	⇒ nil
21:00	leo2007	lein help does not show swank as a task? do I need to install a plugin for that?
21:00	dnolen	mmarczyk: what do you mean?
21:02	weavejester	leo2007: Yep, there's a plugin called… swank-clojure I think...
21:03	weavejester	leo2007: Oh, the plugin itself is called lein-swank
21:03	weavejester	leo2007: https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure
21:03	mmarczyk	dnolen: well, if a protocol doesn't have a default impl, then either every type which it might make sense to call the related functions on should implement it (ICounted on LazySeq, say -- breaking the currently stated contract of ICounted, which of course could be changed) or the client-facing function needs a satisfies? check to see if it should delegate to -method or use some default approach
21:04	leo2007	weavejester: thanks, I just found it on clojars, lein-swank. I got swank running already but was using something swank-clojure installed in .lein/bin
21:05	dnolen	mmarczyk: protocol dispatch will never be as fast as a bit test via satisfies?
21:05	dnolen	mmarczyk: we need to move tests above dispatching via protocols.
21:07	dreish	So is there just no longer any reasonable way to do low-level unchecked int (not long) math, like for computing a hashcode?
21:08	mmarczyk	dnolen: protocol dispatch now is a property lookup, which on failure is followed by a bunch of fallback property lookups (on the protocol method object), right?
21:08	dnolen	mmarczyk: null check + property existence check
21:08	leo2007	I tried 'lein plugin install lein-swank 1.1.0' and it cannot find the pkg.
21:08	mmarczyk	dnolen: right.
21:09	leo2007	I then tried lein plugin install leiningen/lein-swank 1.1.0, which seems to be downloading everything from some repo.
21:09	dnolen	mmarczyk: and you have to call the protocol fn
21:09	dnolen	mmarczyk: satifies? is an inlined macro
21:11	leo2007	could someone tell me the command line to install lein-swank?
21:12	gtuckerkellogg	Has anyone here worked on the clojure entries for the Shootout computer language benchmarks?
21:13	mmarczyk	dnolen: so, if I understand correctly, you'd like to remove that whole "check if I'm applicable" business from protocol methods?
21:13	dreish	Oops, nevermind. I found them. Of course, I should have grepped the Clojure clj source for "hashCode" to see if there was an example.
21:13	gtuckerkellogg	I haven't looked at the entries in detail, but was surprised to see that the Clojure entries, when compared to Java, used more code. That just seemed impossible
21:14	gtuckerkellogg	or on average about as much code
21:15	dreish	gtuckerkellogg: Heavily optimized code can end up being lengthy. I think that tends to be true in any Lisp.
21:16	dnolen	mmarczyk: I'm not talk about changing anything related to protocols
21:16	dnolen	talking
21:17	dnolen	mmarczyk: except for tracking them for efficient calls to satisfies?
21:17	gtuckerkellogg	dreish, understood. But the performance was on average 4x slower than Java, and in once case 12x slower than Java.
21:18	gtuckerkellogg	maybe the shootout entries are just funky
21:18	dreish	Or Clojure is still incrementally approaching the ideal.
21:19	gtuckerkellogg	or that
21:19	mmarczyk	dnolen: ok, so that buys us not calling -seq on stuff if it's already a seq -- though such a call would presumably always return `this` -- at a cost of whatever it costs to call satisfies?, which will become a (possibly minor?) perf hit for things like -seq on non-seq seqables?
21:20	dnolen	mmarczyk: it allows us to adopt the code style in RT.java which is very perf-centric and highly optimizable by JS engines.
21:29	dnolen	mmarczyk: there's an incredible amount of overhead in the code paths now.
21:30	cemerick	technomancy: sweet writeup! Will RT that tomorrow.
21:30	dnolen	mmarczyk: for example, I've been looking at optimizing rest fns by emitting arrays directly for rest calls.
21:30	dnolen	mmarczyk: so for 1e6, going through JS arguments object takes 4ms or so.
21:31	dnolen	mmarczyk: if we emit an array I saw around ~20ms
21:31	dnolen	mmarczyk: calling first on the array sends timing to ~300ms
21:31	dnolen	mmarczyk: that's unnacceptale
21:31	dnolen	unacceptable
21:31	mmarczyk	dnolen: um wait, 4ms w/ arguments, 20ms w/ array?
21:32	dnolen	mmarczyk: no performance right now is like >2s
21:32	sritchie	dnolen: what's a good spot to look for cljs benchmarks?
21:32	dnolen	sritchie: there's no good spot yet.
21:33	sritchie	someone else at twitter asked me -- I told him "smoking fast"
21:33	mmarczyk	dnolen: oh, so did you mean 4ms for handwritten JS w/ arguments, 20ms for CLJS w/ array, 2s right now?
21:33	dnolen	sritchie: the persistent data structures yes, idiomatic Clojure not tyet.
21:33	dnolen	mmarczyk: something like that
21:33	mmarczyk	dnolen: oh man, that is horrible
21:34	mmarczyk	dnolen: I mean the current state of affairs, that 20ms array version needs to happen asap
21:35	mmarczyk	dnolen: so how do you envision the code path for (first arr) ?
21:36	mmarczyk	or would it be an ArraySeq
21:36	dnolen	mmarczyk: cheap satisfies, ArraySeq is already seq, direct call first.
21:37	dnolen	mmarczyk: this is the whole point about fast satisfies? we can just duplicate rhickey's genious work on RT.java
21:39	mmarczyk	dnolen: well, switching to your impl of first (from the comment on the ticket) does result in a perf win on a list -- although I'm talking Rhino again :-(
21:40	mmarczyk	dnolen: so then first on non-seqs will always take a hit and the hope would be that this can be very minor?
21:42	dnolen	mmarczyk: first on non-seqs take a hit in Clojure little difference.
21:43	dnolen	mmarczyk: and only on first, subsequent calls fast
21:43	mmarczyk	dnolen: right
21:44	mmarczyk	dnolen: that hit is like 25% though, but yeah, first call only
21:44	dnolen	mmarczyk: 25% is nothing when you're traversing anything but the smallest vectors
21:44	mmarczyk	dnolen: true
21:44	dnolen	mmarczyk: and I'm skeptical it's 25% on V8 or SpiderMonkey or JavaScriptCore
21:45	mmarczyk	dnolen: ok, so maybe a branch / patch converting stuff to the "RT.java style" w/ no modifications to satisfies? would be useful
21:47	mmarczyk	dnolen: because actually the best perf for first on an ISeq I've seen is with the recent master + your impl of first
21:48	dnolen	mmarczyk: yep, I'm nearly positive adopting RT.java style will results in massive performance boost across the board w/ a fast satisfies?
21:49	mmarczyk	dnolen: that might be "macroifiable", (defn first [coll] (proto-call :proto ISeq :arg coll :method -first :fallback (let [s (seq coll)] (when s (-first s))))) (w/ the obvious impl of proto-call, possibly w/o the keywords)
21:50	mmarczyk	(macroizable? hm)
21:51	dnolen	mmarczyk: no macros :)
21:51	mmarczyk	dnolen: oh come on :-P
21:51	mmarczyk	dnolen: ;-) of course, but out of curiosity -- why?
21:52	dnolen	mmarczyk: it just cleverness with little gain. All the different code paths will be slightly different.
21:52	mmarczyk	dnolen: ok, guess you might be right
21:53	mmarczyk	dnolen: if they turn out to be the same though I'll be sure to revisit this issue :-)
21:53	mmarczyk	dnolen: ok, another thing -- satisfies? itself
21:54	dnolen	mmarczyk: even so, I'll probably say no to any macros for this stuff. the code paths will be generally small - the code should be clear - macros add nothing.
21:56	mmarczyk	dnolen: so I guess we can store the proto mask on the instances themselves -- which will guarantee the bits are set for inlined methods, but not for protocols the type has been extended to after an instance was created
21:57	mmarczyk	dnolen: or put it on the prototype
21:58	dnolen	mmarczyk: we can deal with extend-type later
21:58	dnolen	mmarczyk: let's just focus on making core fast for the time being.
21:58	mmarczyk	dnolen: ok
21:58	mmarczyk	dnolen: satisfies? keeps the slower checks anyway, so it's not as if this could break things
21:58	dnolen	mmarczyk: yep! :)
21:58	mmarczyk	dnolen: :-)
21:59	mmarczyk	dnolen: so we've got a cljs$lang$protocol_mask$ property on Clojure type instances
21:59	mmarczyk	dnolen: (always -- even if set to 0)
21:59	dnolen	mmarczyk: we should think ahead just a bit - advanced optimization, there will be more than one mask
22:00	mmarczyk	dnolen: so now satisfies? gets that, does a bit-and against the statically looked-up bit
22:01	mmarczyk	dnolen: sure, as long as this is for core protocols, that's not a problem at all
22:01	dnolen	mmarczyk: cljs$lang$protocol_mask$partition0?
22:02	mmarczyk	dnolen: sounds good :-)
22:02	mmarczyk	dnolen: actually it's not a problem even if it's not only for core protocols
22:03	mmarczyk	dnolen: the proto -> bit maps could be held in an atom -- new ones added there when new (defprotocol ...) is encountered or (extend-type SomeUnknownProtocol ...) (if that's even possible? but I guess it probably is now with declare?)
22:04	dnolen	mmarczyk: leats avoid atoms for now.
22:04	dnolen	mmarczyk: lets deal with extend-type later :)
22:04	mmarczyk	dnolen: and of course the straightforward approach (best for now?) is to (def map1 ...) (def map2 ...) etc. in core.clj
22:04	mmarczyk	dnolen: at any rate, should be easy to extend in this direction
22:05	mmarczyk	dnolen: but what I wanted to get to: ultimately, satisfies? would use it by looking up the correct partition (statically determined, of course) and doing the bit-and
22:05	dnolen	mmarczyk: yep
22:05	mmarczyk	dnolen: so you think that's going to be faster than the native property lookup?
22:06	dnolen	mmarczyk: satisifies? currently looks up the prototype chain - slow
22:06	dnolen	mmarczyk: it's not a property look up on instances
22:07	mmarczyk	dnolen: right
22:08	mmarczyk	dnolen: it's 1 step away on success, more on failure -- but on failure we're going to do those checks anyway
22:08	mmarczyk	dnolen: hm, I think it's 1 step?
22:12	dnolen	mmarczyk: in generaly failure will not be common.
22:12	dnolen	mmarczyk: (seq 1) is silly
22:12	mmarczyk	dnolen: sure, I'm not worried about that
22:13	mmarczyk	dnolen: but if I understand correctly, on success we're going to look up a property one step away in the chain, right?
22:14	mmarczyk	^find the property would be better wording, I guess
22:14	dnolen	mmarczyk: property lookup is fast, going up the prototype chain is not
22:14	dnolen	foo.clj$core$ISeqable$ test needs to go up the prototype chain, it's not in the instance
22:15	dnolen	mmarczyk: quick tests, bit test is like <10ms, prototype chain lookup >100ms
22:16	mmarczyk	dnolen: foo.meth != null with meth attached to foo.prototype ?
22:16	mmarczyk	dnolen: for the > 100 ms timing?
22:17	dnolen	mmarczyk: yes w/ null test
22:17	mmarczyk	dnolen: ok
22:18	mmarczyk	dnolen: well, that's very interesting, thanks
22:18	mmarczyk	dnolen: I've got a much more complete picture now
22:19	mmarczyk	dnolen: and I guess the bit-and check should be wrapped in bool-expr?
22:20	mmarczyk	dnolen: (I'm switching to node for timings right now, btw -- satisfies? w/ bit-and is noticeably slower on Rhino, which it shouldn't be given this result)
22:21	dnolen	mmarczyk: wrapping bool-expr probably, though it's yucky
22:22	dnolen	mmarczyk: i would ignore Rhino perf results on this stuff - it's based on my understand of modern JS engines.
22:22	okaygolferyo	(doc pmap)
22:22	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f coll & colls]); Like map, except f is applied in parallel. Semi-lazy in that the parallel computation stays ahead of the consumption, but doesn't realize the entire result unless required. Only useful for computationally intensive functions where the time of f dominates the coordination overhead."
22:23	mmarczyk	dnolen: did you have a moment to look at the WIP patch, btw? just curious if you think that version of satisfies? looks about right
22:23	leo2007	is collection always finite?
22:24	mmarczyk	dnolen: yeah, it's easy enough to test things on Node -- will do that from now on
22:25	dnolen	mmarczyk: will do in a bit.
22:26	mmarczyk	dnolen: cool
22:29	mmarczyk	dnolen: ok, so I guess I'll go and implement this stuff -- partitioned bit masks for protocols, a version of satisfies? to go with them, RT.java-style ops (all that should avoid something like the extra call to seq in first)
22:29	mmarczyk	dnolen: and get some perf tests done in node
22:30	mmarczyk	dnolen: thank you for a very enlightening discussion!
22:45	cemerick	replaca: Looking at lein-autodoc; would you be interested in a pull req that brings it up to spec for use with lein2?
22:46	cemerick	And, if so, do you want/need to keep lein1 compatibility (either flexibly, or perhaps the impls should split based on lein version)?
22:53	jweiss	anyone here know how to use autodoc? i can't get the standalone to run at all (errors out with classes missing from classpath). The lein plugin will run, but i want to specify :namespaces-to-document, but it won't accept anything. it will either document all the namespaces, or none.
23:17	njdirk	which signature is more idiomatic in providing a HTML body alternative to plain text (message subject body) -- forking clj-aws SES support: (html-message subject body) (message subject body :as-html)
23:17	dnolen	dreish: there's unchecked-add-int
23:18	dreish	Yes, I found it by grepping for hashCode in clojure/src/clj/. Thanks, though.
23:18	dnolen	dreish: also gtuckerkellogg left but test.benchmark for fast implementation of alioth benchmarks that are competitive w/ java that aren't overly verbose.
23:19	dreish	Interesting. They're not the ones that are listed at alioth?
23:22	mdeboard	Is there a better/safer way of reloading swank when I add packages to the classpath besides killing the swank buffer and running clojure-jack-in again?
23:22	dnolen	dreish: they are not, the current crop @ alioth benchmarks are not very good.
23:23	dnolen	dreish: in the end I think the results will be pretty uninteresting - identical perf to Java for the most part.
23:23	technomancy	mdeboard: you could theoretically add the dependency using pomegranate, but nobody's plumbed through a nice interface to that via swank yet
23:24	technomancy	mdeboard: but you can just re-run M-x clojure-jack-in; it'll kill the old swank for you
23:24	mdeboard	technomancy: Ahhh ok @ killing old one.
23:25	mdeboard	Doesn't seem like Eclipse has great handling of that either based off cemerick's screencast
23:26	technomancy	pomegranate is still very new
23:31	cemerick	what would such an interface look like at all?
23:31	cemerick	mdeboard, technomancy ^^
23:31	cemerick	I suppose adding a dep to project.clj could be picked up and added to the running classpath automatically? shudder
23:31	mdeboard	No, don't mean like that.
23:32	technomancy	cemerick: possibly some interplay between leiningen and the subprocess?
23:32	technomancy	so you don't need leiningen-core as a dep of the project
23:32	technomancy	but a first-run implementation would just dump lein-core in :deps in a profile
23:32	mdeboard	I just meant a simple reload command tbh :P F5 equivalent
23:32	technomancy	(leiningen.core.injected/recalculate-deps)
23:32	cemerick	pomegranate nREPL middleware? :-O
23:32	technomancy	sure =)
23:33	cemerick	an here I thought I was trolling ;-)
23:33	mdeboard	trolls trolling trolls
23:33	cemerick	Unsurprisingly, I'm probably the most skeptical person in the room re: add-dependency
23:34	mdeboard	I agree that automatically detecing changes and reloading automatically is cringeworthy
23:36	mdeboard	e.g. http://ipython.org/ipython-doc/dev/api/generated/IPython.lib.deepreload.html?highlight=reload#IPython.lib.deepreload.reload
23:37	cemerick	oh yeah
23:37	cemerick	I've broken teeth on python's module reloading in the past.
23:38	cemerick	"Nah, you don't want reload, you want deep reload."
23:38	technomancy	"whoa; that's deep"
23:39	mdeboard	Sorry that Python is too advanced for you troglodytes
23:39	mdeboard	:P
23:39	mdeboard	(kidding, obviously I hope)
23:39	cemerick	heh
23:40	cemerick	poor python
23:41	cemerick	A friend of mine was telling me earlier how his company will simply never move to python 3. Period. They'll end up in Clojure or JRuby before that happens, apparently.
23:41	mdeboard	I like Python a lot. I write a lot of what I hope is idiomatic/"Pythonic" Python. It does what it does really well. Has some warts and stuff but nothing too awful. Sometimes it's not the right tool for the job though.
23:43	muhoo	python was my favorite language for about 7 years. until i found clojure. now i found i simply can't go back, even if i wanted to.
23:43	mdeboard	cemerick: Where did (pprint) come from at about 30:00 in your screencast? I've got lein-pprint in my profile.clj but it's not recognized
23:44	mdeboard	oh, different things I guess.
23:46	cemerick	mdeboard: that's clojure.pprint/pprint — which I should have required in, since it'd only be present within the namespace when the REPL is involved.
23:46	cemerick	lein-pprint is a plugin that will pretty-print the project map after all middleware, hooks, etc. are applied.
23:49	mdeboard	oic
23:51	LuminousMonkey	Anyone got the seven languages in seven weeks from PragProg? Worth getting?
23:56	mdeboard	One component of our stack at work where I really miss clojure is parsing XML out into dictionaries.