#clojure – 2012-04-13

2012-04-13

00:07	kenneth	so i've narrowed it down
00:07	kenneth	https://gist.github.com/8df116ff0fbe53eef0a1
00:07	kenneth	if i replace line 6 with the two lines commented out above, it doesn't work
00:07	kenneth	can't tell why
00:08	devn	FWIW i dont like using ->> in that context
00:08	devn	(dorun (pmap (map (line-seq (io/reader f ...)))))
00:09	devn	err, you know what i mean
00:12	kenneth	alright let me try it this way
00:12	andyfingerhut	partition is adding a level of nesting that the final map doesn't handle
00:14	andyfingerhut	sorry, I was confused there for a bit. What do you mean by 'it doesn't work'? The result is different?
00:21	kenneth	hmm, i though i was handling it with the two maps, andyfingerhut
00:21	kenneth	devn: here, tried it your way, and adding a with-open, https://gist.github.com/df78a51e447c3a7f80bf
00:21	kenneth	it's still printing nil
00:22	devn	what is printing nil?
00:22	devn	you dont have any (println) calls
00:23	kenneth	devn: i do, process-line printlns
00:23	kenneth	devn: pasted the whole code, same gist (reload)
00:23	devn	oh, sorry -- saw it was (str ...) earlier
00:23	kenneth	thanks for the help btw, much appreciated
00:24	devn	kenneth: not a problem :)
00:25	devn	kenneth: do you mean to process the file in parallel? or to process lines in parallel?
00:26	kenneth	i want to process the file in parallel, 10 threads at a time
00:27	kenneth	since there's some blocking i/o on the line processing, running 10 at a time ought to speed up the whole thing a lot
00:30	devn	kenneth: http://meshy.org/code/wf2-faster.clj
00:30	devn	that's pretty ancient, so type hints and so on have changed
00:30	devn	as have the libraries
00:30	jblomo	can i change the Details section of a Jira ticke?
00:31	jblomo	ticket
00:31	kenneth	devn: i think that's somewhat above my level right now
00:31	kenneth	:p
00:31	devn	kenneth: i felt the same way, but try to just skim it and look at the recipe
00:33	devn	kenneth: have you timed this without trying to parallelize it?
00:33	devn	are you optimizing prematurely?
00:34	kenneth	i have not timed it, but i don't think it's too premature
00:34	kenneth	the script is meant to process a 140M line file, and i've run a php version of the script before and it ran almost 10x faster with 10 instances running
00:49	kenneth	devn: do you have any idea why this works (map process-line (line-seq r)), but this doesn't: (pmap #(map process-line %) (partition 10 (line-seq r)))
00:53	Iceland_jack	kenneth: #(apply map process-line %) ?
01:07	kenneth	Iceland_jack: hmm, could you explain that, i'm not sure i get it
01:09	amalloy	kenneth: i think the reason you don't get it is that it's incorrect
01:09	kenneth	haha
01:10	Iceland_jack	Honest mistake amalloy
01:10	amalloy	anyway, your transformation to pmap looks fine except for the danger of using partition instead of partition-all
01:11	amalloy	compare ##(partition 2 [1 2 3 4 5]) to ##(partition-all 2 [1 2 3 4 5]) and make sure you're using the one you want
01:11	lazybot	(partition 2 [1 2 3 4 5]) ⇒ ((1 2) (3 4))
01:11	lazybot	(partition-all 2 [1 2 3 4 5]) ⇒ ((1 2) (3 4) (5))
01:11	amalloy	so at that point i'd ask you what you're doing that makes you think the pmap version doesn't work and the other does
01:11	amalloy	(it's probably laziness-related though)
01:12	kenneth	amalloy: actually, does partition X create a collection with X collections, or a collection of collections of size X?
01:12	muhoo	wow it's so weird dealing with a java api that has mutable state
01:12	amalloy	&(partition 2 (range 10))
01:12	lazybot	⇒ ((0 1) (2 3) (4 5) (6 7) (8 9))
01:13	kenneth	oh shit. is there a way to do the opposite? split the collection in 10?
01:13	kenneth	also, here's what i'm doing: https://gist.github.com/df78a51e447c3a7f80bf
01:13	amalloy	well, one option would be to transpose the partitions: ##(apply map vector (partition 2 (range 10)))
01:13	lazybot	⇒ ([0 2 4 6 8] [1 3 5 7 9])
01:14	amalloy	that gets them out of order, of course, and has serious issues with incomplete partitions
01:14	kenneth	i see, then that's probably a little dangerous for a lazy partition with 140M items
01:14	amalloy	if i wanted to do this, i'd use https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/seq.clj#L51
01:15	amalloy	but you can't split into 10 equal-sized pieces lazily, how do you know how big to make the first one?
01:15	kenneth	hmm, good question.
01:16	kenneth	maybe i'm thinking about this the wrong way
01:17	kenneth	here's my use case: i'm processing a huge file, and for each line process there's some blocking i/o (database write), so i want to run 10 at a time in parallel
01:18	amalloy	you want seque
01:18	amalloy	&(doc seque)
01:18	lazybot	⇒ "([s] [n-or-q s]); Creates a queued seq on another (presumably lazy) seq s. The queued seq will produce a concrete seq in the background, and can get up to n items ahead of the consumer. n-or-q can be an integer n buffer size, or an instance of java.util.concurrent ... https://refheap.com/paste/2072
01:19	amalloy	so i think your function is just (defn process-in-parallel [items] (seque 10 (map process-blocking items)))
01:21	amalloy	though i wonder how that interacts with the chunkiness of map...
01:21	kenneth	oh, sweet! i think that's what i'm looking for
01:21	kenneth	mad kudos, amalloy :) you've cracked it i think
01:22	amalloy	yeah, i think that actually doesn't work well because of map chunking though
01:23	kenneth	oh?
01:23	amalloy	i guess line-seq probably doesn't produce a chunked sequence, so you're fine
01:24	amalloy	yeah
01:24	kenneth	so unrelated question: when i run `leon run` and it's done processing, it doesn't exit
01:24	kenneth	do i need to add some kind of exit statement at the end of my -main function?
01:24	amalloy	$google lein shutdown-agents threadpool
01:24	lazybot	[Issue #455: Shutdown agents after repl is disconnected ...] https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/455
01:25	amalloy	well, i was looking for http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8695808/clojure-program-not-exiting-when-finishing-last-statement
01:36	jblomo	ahh thank you technomancy for a repl that works after being backgrounded :)
02:16	aperiodic	muhoo: got a link for that presentation?
02:22	aperiodic	is this is his strangeloop talk?
02:25	ibdknox	it was his ClojureWest talk
02:26	aperiodic	is that up?
02:26	aperiodic	i've been kicking myself for missing that since lynaghk told me about it
04:02	xumingmingv	a simple question, what type of thing is the Exception in a try/catch? https://gist.github.com/2374971
04:02	xumingmingv	not a type hint, right?
04:11	samaaron	xumingmingv: I think it's just a java class
04:12	xumingmingv	a java class in clojure? seems not so clojure..
04:14	samaaron	xumingmingv: Clojure is a parasitic language - it needs a host, and talking directly to the host language is idiomatic
04:17	Chousuke	You should call it symbiotic rather than parasitic :P
04:17	xumingmingv	samaaron: ah, thanks. is there any other similar usage? because i see type hint a lot, like ^Exception, but directly use Exception seems rare.
04:18	samaaron	xumingmingv: I think it's a fairly special case
04:18	Chousuke	xumingmingv: the exception class is just part of catch syntax
04:19	Chousuke	you have to specify what exceptions (or throwables) you want to catch
04:19	Chousuke	a type hint just tells the compiler what class you expect a value to be, so that reflection can be avoided
04:21	aperiodic	samaaron: ping
04:21	xumingmingv	Chousuke: thanks
04:22	samaaron	aperiodic: pong
04:24	aperiodic	so, i tried the quil 1.0.0 release, and it didn't solve that weird def/defn problem i was having
04:25	samaaron	aperiodic: ok, shame - so remind me about the issue
04:25	aperiodic	samaaron: it's summed up in the gist: https://gist.github.com/2341911
04:26	aperiodic	in one line, once i instantiate this java class, nothing i def/defn in the namespace can be cast to the core language interfaces
04:27	aperiodic	i am rewriting that processing library to make it more palatable to use in clojure, and that'll remove the weird reflection stuff that it currently does to the applet that it's passed
04:28	aperiodic	which might solve this issue, but i don't know
04:28	samaaron	yeah, i'm staring at the code right now
04:31	aperiodic	my current plan is basically just "wow, that's a weird exception i don't understand, maybe if i remove this reflection stuff i don't understand either, everything will be better?"
04:32	aperiodic	so i was hoping you might have some sort of clue as to why this is happening, cause i don't :)
04:37	samaaron	aperiodic: not that it helps, but i might restructure your code like this: https://refheap.com/paste/2075
04:38	aperiodic	oh, that is handy
04:39	aperiodic	(set-state!, that is)
04:39	samaaron	so I wonder what SimpleOpenNI does to the applet
04:39	samaaron	aperiodic: yeah, set-state! adds applet-specific state
04:39	samaaron	you can only call it once though :-)
04:41	aperiodic	heh, fair enough
04:42	aperiodic	the source for that SimpleOpenNI class is here: https://code.google.com/p/simple-openni/source/browse/trunk/SimpleOpenNI/src/p5_src/SimpleOpenNI.java
04:43	aperiodic	the part that is unfamiliar to me is the stuff going on in getMethodRef, but it's not obvious to me why that would cause the cast exceptions
04:45	clgv	"quil kinect" sounds interesting
04:46	amalloy	aperiodic: to me it sounds like that class is probably mucking up your classloader somehow
04:46	amalloy	but i don't really know anything about a cause or a solution to that problem
04:47	amalloy	you could probably verify by doing something like printing (.getClassLoader clojure.lang.IDeref) before and after the thing that breaks it
04:47	aperiodic	clgv: it's up on github (https://github.com/aperiodic/quil-kinect), but unfortunately right now you can only get the depth image out
04:48	aperiodic	oh man, classloaders, i've heard about these
04:49	clgv	classloaders are mysterious fun when using some javalibs ^^
04:49	amalloy	they are deep magic. hopefully that's not the real problem
04:50	samaaron	aperiodic: sorry but i'm way out of my depth here - the code you've written seems good to me, but clearly the kinect lib must be doing some strange futzing
04:51	aperiodic	samaaron: no worries! thanks for giving it the look-see
04:52	aperiodic	yeah, i'd always that i wouldn't run into a classloader issue, since that's farther down the rabbit hole than i think i want to be
04:52	aperiodic	let me see if that's actually the case here
04:52	aperiodic	s/always/always hoped/
04:57	clgv	aperiodic: what's the exception you encounter?
04:58	aperiodic	clgv: https://gist.github.com/2341911
04:59	clgv	aperiodic: wow thats weird
05:00	aperiodic	yeah, so it's the same classloader before and after the thing that breaks it happens
05:00	aperiodic	clgv: right?
05:00	aperiodic	that's why i've been bugging sam to take a look at it for the past few days. i'm clueless.
05:01	clgv	aperiodic: as to classloaders - is the (-> (Thread/currentThread) .getContextClassLoader) still Clojure's DynamicClassLoader after importing?
05:02	clgv	you can also check if there are uncommon changes to the classloader hierarchy via .getParent
05:03	clgv	aperiodic: the only thing that gets executed when loading should be that static-block
05:05	aperiodic	so the classloader is always "#<AppClassLoader sun.misc.Launcher$AppClassLoader@535ff48b>"
05:05	clgv	in your Clojure repl?
05:05	aperiodic	in the slimv buffer, yeah
05:05	aperiodic	even when i don't import
05:05	aperiodic	which seems... impossible
05:06	clgv	in "lein repl" and CCWs repl I get Clojure's DynamicClassLoader
05:07	aperiodic	i blame my not knowing how to use swank well at all
05:07	aperiodic	i launched a lein repl and have the dynamic classloader
05:07	aperiodic	now to import the class
05:07	clgv	and the bug as well?
05:10	aperiodic	the classloader appears to be switched after the import, but before the functions in my namespace are called by quil
05:11	aperiodic	i printed out the classloader in a top-level statement, and then before and after instantiating a SimpleOpenNI object
05:11	aperiodic	only the top-level statement prints out the dynamic class-loader
05:12	clgv	so it breaks afte the constructor of the SimpleOpenNI?
05:12	aperiodic	no
05:12	aperiodic	it's already broken by that point
05:13	clgv	System.loadLibrary shouldnt break anything, I would guess
05:13	aperiodic	well, i wonder if it's an interaction with anything quil might be doing in, say, defsketch
05:14	wei_	what's the good way to dynamically bind based on the value of a var? e.g. (binding [(symbol test-type "config") my-config] (do stuff))
05:14	wei_	that ^ gives me PersistentList cannot be cast to Symbol
05:15	wei_	is it because binding is a macro?
05:15	clgv	wei_: yeah. and it expects a symbol or destructuring form there
05:18	aperiodic	clgv: this is what i'm seeing now: https://gist.github.com/2375349
05:22	ibdknox	Video is recorded, blog post is written. Light Table will be making its debut tomorrow :)
05:23	wei_	would it be better to use a dynamic var for that? config?
05:24	clgv	aperiodic: hmmm. (setup) is called from within the quil-applet, so I think the AppClassLoader can be expected since its the one of the applet - but that is my limited knowledge about classloaders guessing here
05:24	clgv	or is it different without the import?
05:26	aperiodic	it's still the AppClassLoader without the import
05:27	aperiodic	so is processing's classloader is stomping all over clojure's?
05:27	clgv	then it's probably not the spot to investigate
05:28	aperiodic	ok
05:28	aperiodic	huh
05:29	clgv	oh. you are printing the ClassLoader of clojure.lang.IDeref not the one of the current thread inside (setup)
05:29	clgv	the one of IDeref won't change
05:31	senthil	just learned about clojurescript, seems interesting
05:32	senthil	is it just a fun side project of clojure?
05:33	clgv	senthil: no it is maintained by the clojure team on github
05:34	aperiodic	clgv: if i print the current classloader, it's always the dynamic one, regardless of whether the class has been imported or the constructor has been called
05:35	aperiodic	it definitely seems like the constructor is the cause, since if i omit it, then the class cast exception does go away
05:35	senthil	clgv: how would you rate its popularity? (i'm new to clojure and want a benchmark)
05:36	clgv	senthil: there are often development questions about it here but the project itself claims it's in an alpha stage
05:37	ibdknox	it's gaining a lot of steam
05:37	twem2	there is quite a buzz around clojurescript
05:37	aperiodic	clgv: i should go to sleep, though. thanks for your suggestions; i hope i can bug you about this later, if it's still an issue after i remove everything that looks fishy from the constructor
05:38	clgv	aperiodic: good luck. combination of quil with kinect sounds interesting
05:40	aperiodic	yeah, i'd really like to get this working, since processing is pretty much the only code i wrote that's not clojure these days
06:01	mccraig	cemerick: i've got a case in friend i would like to behave differently : wondering about your favoured approach : i'm using interactive-form workflow, but i would like ::friend/redirect-on-auth? meta to be set false afterwards, so the handler gets called
06:02	mccraig	i'm happy to do a pull-request… maybe modify interactive-form workflow to take more config if that works for you ?
06:32	senthil	clgv: ah
06:33	senthil	clgv: thx!
06:33	clgv	senthil: and like ibdknox said ;)
06:33	Fullmoon	Am I overlooking something, or are there no named captures in clojure regular expressions? Would be lovely with deconstruction
06:34	clgv	Fullmoon: Clojure's regular expression are implemented via Java's
06:38	Fullmoon	I see... hm... then, is it possible to create a map from a vector with restructuring? Let's say a re function returns the triplet ["k=v" "k" "v"], and I want to create {k: v} via restructuring, doesn't seem to be able easily, right?
06:41	clgv	Fullmoon: there is zipmap ##(doc zipmap)
06:41	lazybot	⇒ "([keys vals]); Returns a map with the keys mapped to the corresponding vals."
06:42	clgv	Fullmoon: e.g. (zipmap [:kv :k :v] (re-find ...))
06:56	Fullmoon	clgv: Nice!
06:58	mccraig	cemerick: did it that way. pull request in the post
07:08	dsabanin	hi guys
07:08	dsabanin	I wonder what's the best and the simplest way to put clojure app in production?
07:09	dsabanin	I tried nohup lein trampoline run & but for some reason my noir app stops right away once I do that
07:20	samaaron	ls
07:45	cemerick	mccraig: thanks, comment added
07:55	mccraig	cemerick: oops, sorry: sent u a new pull-request
08:35	gfredericks	jure
09:50	huangjs	any chance that I can use swank with clojurescript?
10:12	Borkdude	I was wondering about macro's, is this one "idiomatic" Clojure? https://gist.github.com/2377114
10:15	fliebel	Borkdude: Looks fine, although I always forget what stuff like ~' does.
10:16	Borkdude	fliebel: I want literaly the symbol args, and not a qualified symbol
10:16	fliebel	Maybe that should be a gensym instead? I forgot the syntax for that too, I think it's symbol#
10:16	Borkdude	fliebel, yes how?
10:16	fliebel	&`(foo bar#)
10:16	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/foo bar__6687__auto__)
10:17	Borkdude	ah tnx
10:17	Borkdude	https://gist.github.com/2377114
10:18	fliebel	Borkdude: Why define an adder in the first place??
10:18	lazybot	fliebel: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
10:18	Borkdude	fliebel: good question, I just want an example of a customly defined macro, instead of showing one that's already present in clojure
10:18	Borkdude	fliebel: to show to students, but I can't think of a good example right now
10:18	fdaoud	define an adder?
10:18	fliebel	Borkdude: If you want to over-engineer things, you should first define adder as a function, and the def-adder as a macro.
10:19	fliebel	I don't know, maybe??
10:19	lazybot	fliebel: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
10:19	Borkdude	fliebel: don't undestand your suggestion
10:19	fdaoud	anything with two question marks??
10:19	lazybot	fdaoud: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
10:19	Borkdude	??
10:19	lazybot	Borkdude: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
10:20	Borkdude	fliebel: Any suggestions for a different macro that is not too difficult to understand, welcome.
10:23	fliebel	Borkdude: I improved that for you :D https://gist.github.com/2377174
10:24	fliebel	Borkdude: I think some control flow is very powerful.
10:25	Fullmoon	What is the function that returns for (1 2 3) (a b c) all combinations? I mean 1a 1b 1c 2a 2b 2c.. ?
10:26	fliebel	Fullmoon: Woudl a for loop do? ##(for [l '[a b c] n [1 2 3]] (str l n))
10:26	lazybot	⇒ ("a1" "a2" "a3" "b1" "b2" "b3" "c1" "c2" "c3")
10:26	pbalduino	morning
10:28	Borkdude	fliebel: tnx.
10:28	Fullmoon	fliebel: Sure, but I could swear that there was a function that did just that.. or was that in Haskell perhaps.. hm
10:28	Borkdude	fliebel: what about this one, https://gist.github.com/2377228
10:28	fliebel	Borkdude: nice...
10:29	fliebel	Fullmoon: Maybe it was called permuations, and lived in contrib.
10:29	jkkramer	Fullmoon: there's https://github.com/clojure/math.combinatorics
10:29	babilen	Fullmoon: Something like lazy-cross from https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/seq.clj ?
10:29	babilen	Fullmoon: (or just cross if you don't need lazyness)
10:30	Fullmoon	Ah interesting, thanks
10:30	fliebel	Borkdude: You could go full ruby style. There was this aprils fool joke, with had all these different if statements, to read like english.
10:31	TimMc	never go full ruby
10:32	S11001001	a version of let that provides setq for each binding
10:33	fliebel	TimMc: As an example of how to define things like whenever and notwithstanding in Clojure ;)
10:33	Borkdude	fliebel: do you have a link?
10:33	fliebel	$doc setq
10:33	fliebel	Borkdude: I'm googling. Was on HN.
10:34	S11001001	fliebel: http://www.xach.com/clhs?q=setq
10:36	fliebel	Borkdude: Found! http://nathan.ca/2012/04/introducing-sdfry-the-modern-programming-language/
10:37	Borkdude	fliebel: tnx :)
10:38	fliebel	(assuming (= 1 2) (+ 2 2)) => ???
10:38	lazybot	fliebel: How could that be wrong?
10:40	pbalduino	fliebel: have you any code sample of this sdfry?
10:40	fdaoud	I guess lazybot doesn't like multiple question marks, right??
10:40	lazybot	fdaoud: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
10:41	fliebel	pbalduino: Look at the publishing dat
10:41	timvisher	hey folks
10:41	pbalduino	fliebel: thx ;-)
10:42	timvisher	could anyone point me to why the haskell folks consider full currying vs. partial applicability to be important?
10:43	fliebel	Borkdude: You could implement prolog! (def foo 2) (def foo 3) => No
10:44	Borkdude	fliebel: haha, then I would first have to explain prolog to them
10:45	fliebel	Borkdude: Prolog is just a programming language that talks back to you, and has a soul.
10:45	Borkdude	logic doesn't have soul
10:46	fliebel	Borkdude: Then how do we explain that robots in storage stand together, instead of where we left them? ;)
10:46	Borkdude	fliebel: lol
10:46	Borkdude	fliebel: maybe because of magnetic forces?
10:47	clgv	fliebel: "I Robot"? ;)
10:47	S11001001	timvisher: because point-free programming is cool, and calling partial over and over is tedious
10:48	Borkdude	fliebel: clgc I actually have that Asimov book here, but I never read it
10:48	fliebel	Can someone point me to the difference between the two itseld?
10:53	fliebel	ah http://stackoverflow.com/questions/218025/what-is-the-difference-between-currying-and-partial-application
10:54	fliebel	Hey, that'd be nice for a macro. exploding a function to pieces, and the stick it back together again.
11:03	ibdknox	And here it is! http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/04/12/light-table---a-new-ide-concept/
11:04	TimMc	Blah, can't play the video.
11:04	ibdknox	aw
11:04	ibdknox	that's the best part!
11:04	TimMc	Not your fault, Adobe's.
11:05	ibdknox	ah
11:05	ibdknox	Can a few kind souls vote the HN post up from here: http://news.ycombinator.com/newest
11:05	ibdknox	I have it on good authority what activates the voting ring nonsense is the direct link
11:05	ibdknox	TimMc: I added lots of pictures!
11:05	ibdknox	TimMc: does youtube work for you? I uploaded it there too
11:06	fliebel	Borkdude: https://gist.github.com/2377464
11:09	pandeiro	ibdknox: is there a crate/jayq syntax that lets me create and bind html elements at the same time?
11:09	ibdknox	(crate/html ...)
11:09	TimMc	I figured out the vimeo link (http://vimeo.com/40281991) but it wants me to log in to download...
11:10	Borkdude	ibdknox: I vote
11:10	Borkdude	d
11:10	ibdknox	thanks :)
11:10	ibdknox	TimMc: youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H58-n7uldoU
11:10	pandeiro	ibdknox: sorry those will be DOM elements though right? no way to have them as jq selectors?
11:10	Borkdude	fliebel: cool
11:11	ibdknox	pandeiro: not sure I understand
11:11	ibdknox	TimMc: fwiw, everything I cover in the video is in the post too I think
11:11	Borkdude	ibdknox: it already made its way in to the @newsycombinator twitter account
11:11	pandeiro	ibdknox: me neither :)
11:11	pandeiro	sorry let me get my throughts straight
11:12	Borkdude	gotta go, bye folks
11:13	scriptor	hah, I was just about to paste the light table link
11:13	jimduey	ibdknox: Nice work on light table. Having a fn be the smallest unit of code rather than files is something I've wanted for a long time.
11:14	clgv	ibdknox: ah you carried on the ideas of code bubbles. interesting
11:14	ibdknox	jimduey: we built code bubbles for VS over a weekend
11:14	ibdknox	people were mostly uninterested at MS
11:14	jimduey	You did code bubbles? I thought that was a great idea.
11:14	ibdknox	they saw value in the debugging case, but not much else
11:14	ibdknox	ah, no some guy from brown did the original in Eclipse
11:15	ibdknox	the day after it came out, I got a few of our devs together and made it happen for VS :)
11:15	clgv	ibdknox: is that "Light Table" running in a browser for ClojureScript only?
11:15	ibdknox	that was a neat little project
11:15	ibdknox	clgv: actually it's JVM clojure
11:15	scriptor	damn, the real-time evaluation think seems really slick
11:16	TimMc	ibdknox: thanks
11:16	clgv	ibdknox: but the rendered game is cljs?
11:16	ibdknox	clgv: ah yeah
11:17	ibdknox	TimMc: didn't you post stuff on reddit last time?
11:17	TimMc	yeah
11:17	clgv	ibdknox: you have the running demo as a github project, I guess?
11:17	ibdknox	clgv: I haven't released the code
11:17	ibdknox	I'm not sure what to do about it quite yet
11:18	ibdknox	my prototype is decently robust, but it has a lot of rough edges and isn't necessarily that useful in practice (it doesn't even let you save :)
11:18	clgv	ibdknox: oh ok. a live testing would have been great ;)
11:18	timvisher	S11001001: recommend anything i could read on point-free programming?
11:18	ibdknox	clgv: I agree, unfortunately, trying to put that on the internet would be a disaster ;)
11:19	clgv	ibdknox: maybe in some months ;)=
11:19	TimMc	ibdknox: Yes, and I'll probably post this one as well unless someone beats me to it.
11:19	ibdknox	TimMc: as you are far more familiar there, should you believe it merit's it - feel free to plop it on there :)
11:20	timvisher	Raynes: should tryclj.com be down?
11:21	jsabeaudry	Is there a way to have an incremental "lein uberjar" so that not everything is recompiled everytime when only 1 file changed?
11:23	S11001001	timvisher: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Pointfree
11:23	ibdknox	lol: 880 people on the site right now
11:24	TimMc	ibdknox: It's more a matter of my internet connection and reddit both being up at the same time. :-(
11:25	ibdknox	TimMc: haha
11:25	ibdknox	the differences between HN and reddit traffic are interesting
11:25	scriptor	TimMc: tried http://www.downforeveryone.com/?
11:28	timvisher	S11001001: thanks!
11:30	scriptor	wait, is the light table demo up anywhere?
11:31	ibdknox	scriptor: couldn't put it up as a website, the world would've destroyed that server in seconds
11:32	ibdknox	plus the real-time bit of it sucks with latency
11:32	scriptor	ah, cool
11:33	hhutch	ibdknox: this is very very cool
11:35	ibdknox	hhutch: :)
11:37	ibdknox	in its completed state it would address the "getting an env set up for Clojure" issue nicely
11:37	ibdknox	you'd just download a jar, run it, and open a browser
11:39	scriptor	ibdknox: have you thought about how lein/cake integration would work?
11:39	ibdknox	I don't think you'd need to do anything special really :)
11:40	hhutch	ibdknox: so it is clj->cljs stack, I can't wait to play with it :)
11:40	ibdknox	I would just use lein like I do with vim
11:40	ibdknox	there are lots of things I didn't talk about in that post/video though
11:40	scriptor	you're a vimclojure user?
11:40	ibdknox	like the idea of having access to all of the projects on your machine
11:40	ibdknox	scriptor: yessir
11:42	Bronsa	ibdknox light table seems insananely cool.
11:42	Bronsa	*insanely
11:45	TimMc	Bronsa: insananananananana
11:46	ibdknox	lol
11:46	Bronsa	lol
11:48	dnolen	ibdknox: impressive!
11:49	ibdknox	:)
11:52	pbostrom	ibdknox, I'll add to the chorus that this is indeed awesome. You're a pretty prolific dev, just curious, when do you find time to get all this stuff done? 20% time at work? nights and weekends?
11:54	TimMc	ibdknox: Got a question for you over on the reddit page: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/s80qs/_/
11:54	scriptor	time machine
11:54	ibdknox	TimMc: just answered :)
11:54	TimMc	That fast!
11:55	ibdknox	pbostrom: it was nights and weekends until fairly recently :)
11:59	ibdknox	wow
12:00	dnolen	ibdknox: ?
12:00	ibdknox	200+ points in an hour - didn't expect that
12:01	lynaghk	ibdknox: if you think that's a lot of points, you should try pinball =P
12:01	ibdknox	hahaha
12:01	ibdknox	I love pinball
12:02	dnolen	ibdknox: haha, it's a pretty sick video - definitely something that resonates - our tools could be way better.
12:02	autodidakto	Oooo, ooo, wutcha playin?
12:02	devn	ibdknox: i want light table. i want it so bad.
12:03	devn	ibdknox: awesome work man.
12:03	hoeck1	and the top comment is of course: 'the smalltalk guys did this stuff back in the 80ties'
12:03	scriptor	of course
12:03	autodidakto	That's what she said
12:03	scriptor	I guess this is how normal programmers feel when the top comment is about lisp doing it already
12:04	hoeck1	I'm wondering if such environments will succeed this time (hoping so)
12:04	dnolen	hoeck1: sometimes it takes a long time for old ideas to really catch on.
12:04	dnolen	hoeck1: at JSConf I presented right before Dan Ingalls. It was a Lisp Smalltalk double whammy.
12:04	autodidakto	dnolen: link!
12:05	dnolen	autodidakto: whenever JSConf releases the videos
12:05	autodidakto	gotcha
12:05	hoeck1	dnolen: maybe, also the hardware is way better now than 20 years ago, big screens and such
12:06	dnolen	hoeck1: heh, that too. GCs come a long way, people actually know how to make dynamic languages fast at runtime, etc.
12:07	ibdknox	we needed a lot of things to happen before something like this could come into being and actually catch on, I think
12:07	ibdknox	we needed more programmers and bigger programs, for one thing
12:08	scriptor	would this eventually be a stand-alone editor or be integrated into existing stuff?
12:08	hoeck1	ibdknox: would you use a lib to render clojure datastructures directly to html, for example in order to render the code in lighttable?
12:09	hoeck1	If shuch a thing would exist?
12:09	lynaghk	ibdknox: I think there's a lot of value for something like LightBox in just debugging and exploring other people's code. When I was diving into core.logic a while back I would have loved to just see a visual trace of the execution paths and values.
12:09	autodidakto	dnolen: which video were you talking about just now?
12:09	ibdknox	scriptor: I'm not sure how it could be integrated, putting it in something kind of defeats the point
12:09	ibdknox	hoeck1: not sure I understand, like to show results?
12:10	ibdknox	I have a little ipad prototype that lets you drag things around and code - it does something sort of like that
12:10	dnolen	autodidakto: my Lisp presentation at JSConf, and Dan Ingall's far, far superior one on Lively Kernel.
12:10	scriptor	true, I was trying to think of any editor that could let you completely change its behavior like that
12:10	ibdknox	lynaghk: totally
12:10	muhoo	is "lein cljsbuild auto" required in order to use cljs-template built projects?
12:10	ibdknox	muhoo: no
12:10	devn	ibdknox: everyone in the office is saying "minority report"
12:11	devn	i dont want that necessarily, but fwiw, that seems to be a common response to seeing it
12:11	dnolen	lynaghk: one dream I've had for a long time - a tracer that can graphically show the core.logic search nodes. Mozart/Oz has this.
12:12	lynaghk	dnolen: the thing that scared me away from that project is getting the data/internals. If we can figure out a nice way to do that for core.logic traces or general clojure execution debugging, I'd be happy to kick together some UIs.
12:12	ibdknox	devn: haha, a bit :)
12:13	dnolen	lynaghk: that would be beautiful.
12:13	hoeck1	ibdknox: http://pastehtml.com/view/bun1zr4o7.html
12:13	dnolen	lynaghk: I just need to think some about how to get the hooks in there.
12:14	lynaghk	dnolen: Sure. Maybe in a month I'll take a week or two off and go on holiday somewhere to hack on funsies projects only.
12:14	hoeck1	ibdknox: needs more work, currently a dead and unreleased project
12:14	ibdknox	gah
12:14	ibdknox	does anyone remember how to make lists in HN markup?
12:14	ibdknox	I seem to have done it wrong
12:14	ibdknox	lol
12:16	wink	wow,
12:16	wink	that looks ace
12:20	cemerick	ibdknox: nice presentation :-)
12:21	ibdknox	cemerick: you should've seen me, I was doing the voiceovers and at the very end iMovie adjusted all my clip lengths - I didn't notice until about halfway through. Not a happy camper. Hopefully I don't sound angry in the last few clips lol
12:22	lynaghk	ibdknox: have you tried ScreenFlow?
12:22	cemerick	ibdknox: seriously, screenflow :-)
12:22	lynaghk	It's $100, but it's an AWESOME piece of screencasting software
12:22	ibdknox	I haven't
12:22	ibdknox	oh
12:22	ibdknox	hm
12:22	ibdknox	might need to look into that then
12:22	lynaghk	and since you're killing it on HN every few weeks now, might be worth it
12:23	cemerick	ibdknox: does lighttable mean I'm 5 days further away from medical record salvation? ;-)
12:25	ibdknox	cemerick: yeah... got distracted. Though for good reason - needed some time to think. A YC company magically appeared doing the same thing, so had to figure out what course corrections needed to happen :)
12:25	cemerick	Huh. Well, don't be swayed just by the brand.
12:26	ibdknox	not at all
12:26	ibdknox	the problem is they have a serious head start
12:26	ibdknox	I think I've come up with a clever way to win though :)
12:26	ibdknox	Same problem, just a different way to get there
12:26	cemerick	good :-)
12:29	ibdknox	lol I was actually worried I didn't do a good job selling it
12:30	ibdknox	in the video at least
12:30	ibdknox	I kind of glossed over the last bit, which I think is by far the most interesting
12:31	dnolen	ibdknox: you could probably do a KickStarter for LightTable and retire.
12:31	ibdknox	lol
12:31	RickInGA	ibdknox: don't listen to dnolen, you should never retire, just keep building things for the rest of us to use
12:31	wink	only if it's not clojure-only though :P
12:31	ibdknox	I thought about it, but I'm not sure. What people don't know (and probably isn't that apparent) is that implementation isn't necessarily that interesting to me
12:32	ibdknox	wink: I'd build it for JS
12:32	wink	:(
12:32	ibdknox	that's easily worth millions done correctly - VS was a billion dollar business :)
12:32	wink	ok, JS means money, but doesn't make me happy :P
12:32	ibdknox	haha
12:32	ibdknox	me neither :p
12:32	ibdknox	I'm really a designer by trade
12:33	wink	ibdknox: you just reused noir's CSS, right? :P
12:33	lynaghk	ibdknox: your coding hobby seems to be working out
12:33	ibdknox	not graphic, but in general - the design of things, whether they be code, interfaces, products, whatever
12:33	ibdknox	that's what's interesting to me
12:33	ibdknox	wink: every damn time ;)
12:34	wink	unique enough to instantly recognize it
12:34	lynaghk	ibdknox: have you met Bret Victor? That was the impression I got from reading his stuff, Magic Ink in particular. That's up there with Tufte, in my book.
12:34	muhoo	ibdknox: if you don't like implementation, there's enough money in this for you to hire a team to do that part
12:35	ibdknox	lynaghk: I haven't, though I probably should. I think he's the closest example to a person I'd like to be like
12:35	ibdknox	it's one of the reasons I want to make sure I end up at StrangeLoop
12:35	muhoo	but then you'd be stuck doing icky business crap, not necessarily fun.
12:36	lynaghk	ibdknox: yeah, I feel similarly. We'll have to get him to spill the beans on all the secret cool stuff he must have worked on in Apple R&D.
12:36	ibdknox	yeah :D
12:37	wkmanire	ibdknox: I'm watching your presentation. Neat ideas.
12:37	cemerick	muhoo: the business crap is the fun part a lot of the time for some of us ;-)
12:38	wkmanire	ibdknox: I'm always hesitant to mess with new IDEs because I'm addicted to emacs keybindings. Namely for movement, "copy and paste", deleting lines etc...
12:38	dnolen	ibdknox: you should definitely try to get into StrangeLoop, I wouldn't sell your talk as ClojureScript specific. I think you have a lot to say - Clojure/Script just made implementing it easy (though that's worth mentioning)
12:38	wkmanire	ibdknox: Even IDEs that have emacs keybindings always fall short in that regard, for me at least.
12:39	muhoo	cemerick: it takes a special kind of person to actually enjoy dealing with vc's, making pitches, managing people, dealing with accounting stuff, hiring, interviewing, dealing with lawyers, dealing with the press, etc.
12:40	dnolen	ibdknox: ahaha https://twitter.com/tlberglund/status/190839949921234944
12:40	RickInGA	ibdknox: does light table do macro expansion?
12:40	lynaghk	muhoo: that's startup crap. Good business is just meeting people, convincing them you can solve their problems, and then high fiving and taking their money
12:40	RickInGA	dnolen: haha
12:41	rickbeerendonk	lynaghk is right :)
12:41	muhoo	lynaghk: true, but if you were starting up a company to make a new ide, that'd be your life for 5 years or so
12:42	ibdknox	dnolen: lolol
12:42	muhoo	or more if it succeeds
12:46	ibdknox	RickInGA: not a visual of it, though it could be added in
12:46	ibdknox	I haven't decided what I'm going to do with this yet, but if I ultimately carried it forward, I'd write it in such a way that new elements for the canvas could be really easily added
12:47	ibdknox	there's lots I didn't talk about in that post and they'd require some interesting extensibility mechanisms to make them possible
12:50	pandeiro	ibdknox: do you use any additional abstraction on top of jayq/js for custom events?
12:50	ibdknox	nope
12:51	pandeiro	so your webapps follow the controller-less noir approach?
12:51	pandeiro	sorry i mean client-side apps
12:55	ibdknox	yeah, I mostly use statemachines and such
12:56	mrb_bk	dnolen: fucking with cljs today
12:56	dnolen	mrb_bk: sweet!
12:57	mrb_bk	dnolen: yeah it's "hack day" here, playing with a client side parser for a quick NLP experiment
12:57	dnolen	mrb_bk: nice, it's still pretty wild west - you're a brave soul.
12:58	mrb_bk	dnolen: i ain't scurred
12:59	mrb_bk	actually i'm a little scurred
13:00	dnolen	mrb_bk: ha, thought so.
13:00	RickInGA	ibdknox: sorry for slow response, 2 yr. old nephew visiting the office today... re:macro expasion, I was thinking of your function that showed the functions that were called and the values they were passed, might apply to macros too
13:00	gfredericks	my group is having spooki issues with the compiler crashing while trying to read input files
13:00	ibdknox	RickInGA: totally could make it happen
13:02	pandeiro	ibdknox: i think the answer to my unclear questions earlier about crate/jayq lies in jayq.core/->selector ... hadn't really understood that until now, that's why i was doing weird things with partials and on/delegate/etc
13:12	sadger	hello clojarians or whatever the term is. I'm trying to get started with clojure and vim any suggestions the best way to integrate with using a repl, i tried some clojure-vim plugins that use the nailgun server but they seem a little outdated especially when using the contrib since it has been split up
13:19	dnolen	sadger: there's a few VIM users have you looked at the getting started confluence pages for vim?
13:19	sattvik	sadger: Well, there are two major options: VimClojure, which uses nailgun and is maintained, and SLIMV, which uses the same swank-clojure back-end as does Emacs.
13:20	sadger	do you have a link dnolen ?
13:21	dnolen	sadger: http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started+with+Vim, comments seem informative
13:21	sadger	thank you
13:22	sadger	perhaps my issue was not with the nailgun server but how I can use the latest contrib with nailgun
13:22	dnolen	ibdknox: it looks like you're well on way to doubling your HN karma w/in 24 hours ;)
13:22	sadger	from what I understand you add the jars to the classpath of the nailgun server and it can then use them in the repl
13:22	ibdknox	lol
13:23	wkmanire	How can I pull the doc string of a function from the REPL?
13:23	dnolen	sadger: sadly can't offer more help - I used Emacs & Sublime Text 2 for my Clojuring.
13:23	sattvik	sadger: Are you using Leiningen? That's probably the easiest way to deal with the classpath issues.
13:23	ibdknox	dnolen: I'm still surprised to be honest - I figured people would see Clojure and be like "meh, doesn't work for me"
13:23	sadger	dnolen: emacs is the devil! ha ha, thanks anyway
13:24	ibdknox	sadger: https://github.com/ibdknox/lein-nailgun
13:24	sadger	sattvik: Not at the moment, I think I used an old way to install clojure, just run the jar etc, so then nailgun didnt work because of that
13:24	ibdknox	sadger: run that in any leiningen project, it will include all your classpath and such for you
13:24	ibdknox	and you'll be good to go
13:24	wkmanire	nvm
13:24	wkmanire	doc
13:24	jkrueger	i have successfully migrated people to emacs with one of the vi modes
13:25	sadger	right ok I will have a look at this later on this evening, appreciate your help guys
13:25	sadger	jkrueger: vi mode isn't vim though!
13:25	ibdknox	For those interested, there have been approximately 17,000 uniques to the site. Hovering at a constant 850 +/- 50 people since I posted it
13:25	ibdknox	it has been a little over 2 hours
13:25	RickInGA	sadger: all clojure getting started instructions should begin "install leiningen"
13:26	sadger	RickInGA: I will probably learn that shortly, from what I gather it just used to be run from the jar
13:26	dnolen	ibdknox: nice. btw, if we can get this column stuff into 1.5, we should push to adapt the CLJS analyzer for that and make it a real stand alone contrib lib.
13:26	sadger	But appreciate the help guys I will go make some dinner and be back and fix it perhaps :)
13:27	sattvik	ibdknox: Is that the best/most maintained version of lein-nailgun? It's actually kind of confusing to figure out which version is the one to use.
13:27	ibdknox	dnolen: I agree, I didn't want to take the time to do that quite yet, but absolutely. We'd need to change a couple things (the names of functions have . prepended)
13:27	ibdknox	sattvik: I use Clojure all the time and I only use VIM (for now), so it's a decent bet :)
13:28	RickInGA	ibdknox: you may be diehard vim for now, but if that guy that's working on it ever finishes lightbox, I bet even you will switch
13:29	sadger	RickInGA: I saw that it looks pretty, vim all the way
13:29	ibdknox	RickInGA: I dunno, not really a fan of the guy to be honest. ;) And I would totally add vimbindings
13:29	sadger	ibdknox: do you use pentadactyl or vimperator?
13:29	jimduey	ibdknox: That bodes well for having VIM keybindings in light table.
13:29	sadger	integrate vim as the editor
13:29	sadger	sorted
13:29	sadger	:)
13:29	ibdknox	sadger: vim's UI layer isn't powerful enough
13:30	ibdknox	jimduey: there's actually a vim plugin for codemirror
13:30	ibdknox	and emacs one too
13:30	sadger	sattvik: aww
13:30	sadger	ooops
13:30	sadger	wrong person damn autocomplete
13:30	ibdknox	I'm sure with some more work they could be dramatically improved :)
13:30	sadger	and so they should be, I have seen sort of vim embedded in eclipse
13:31	sadger	basically gvim stripped of the bars
13:31	scriptor	the bars?
13:31	sadger	toolbars
13:31	sadger	that you can remove anyway
13:31	scriptor	ah
13:31	scriptor	so, like vim in a console?
13:32	sadger	yeah essentially just the pane where you edit text in eclipse is vim
13:32	sadger	but you lose all the eclipse mouseover and completion etc
13:32	sadger	so
13:32	sadger	not really worth it
13:32	sadger	a better plugin just adds vim keystrokes
13:40	dnolen	ibdknox: heh some heavyweights retweeting Light Table, just saw one from Ajaxian founder then retweeted by Paul Irish from Google.
13:40	ibdknox	dnolen: I suck at twitter
13:40	ibdknox	Don't even really know how to figure that out in a reasonable manner
13:40	ibdknox	lol
13:40	ibdknox	I just look through everything every once in a while
13:41	scriptor	it's getting several tweets a minute
13:41	dnolen	ibdknox: between Paul Irish & Dion Almaer that's showing up in like 50,000 twitter streams.
13:41	ibdknox	sweet :D
13:42	ibdknox	I guess we can call it viral :) It's staying at over 1000 people now
13:42	ibdknox	hopefully we'll get some new Clojure devs!
13:44	scriptor	shoulda plugged the irc channel!
13:44	pandeiro	ibdknox: i think you took down vimeo too or something b/c i still can't watch the demo
13:44	scriptor	although it'd just be a stream of people joining and asking for the demo/source
13:44	scriptor	video works fine for me
13:45	pandeiro	huh lemme try firefox
13:45	scriptor	hmm, using chrome on osx 10.6.something
13:45	scriptor	here
13:45	pandeiro	oops i forgot i didn't have flash installed :)
13:45	pandeiro	just set up this OS
13:46	pandeiro	i thought chromium had flash builtin though
13:46	scriptor	don't think so
13:47	pandeiro	how many more years til youtube and vimeo & co will be embeddable with video tags?
13:48	dnolen	ibdknox: haha, did you have a chat with al3x about Clojure?
13:48	ibdknox	yeah at ClojureWest
13:49	ibdknox	I told him fundamentally there are two differences, one that matters short term and one that matters long term
13:49	ibdknox	short - overall complexity of the language is much lower (the book for Scala is huge)
13:49	ibdknox	long - you simply can't create the same level of abstraction in Scala
13:50	ibdknox	the latter is by far the most important, because that's all programming is
13:53	ibdknox	dnolen: ^
13:54	ibdknox	He seemed to really like our community
13:55	irc2samus	hi guys, why does partition and partition-all return an infinite list of empty lists when you pass zero as argument?
13:55	irc2samus	I mean, I understand the idea of "if you partition on chucks of zero elements..." but isn't it useless? and dangerous
13:56	dnolen	ibdknox: I pretty much agree w/ your analysis.
13:56	AimHere	irc2samus, it's kindof the logical behaviour, and clojure sequences are all about infinite lists of things
13:56	AimHere	It's no more dangerous than ANY use of the iterate function, for instance
13:57	RickInGA	I went to a Scala user group meeting last week, where they showed a demo of lift. Made me like Noir even more
13:57	irc2samus	AimHere: it's way different, with partition and partition-all you're not generating anything, you're splitting
13:58	AimHere	You can split up an infinite sequence with partition just as easily as a finite one
13:58	irc2samus	I suppose if you ask to partition an infinte list you'll get another infinite one, but that has nothing to do with the size of each chunk
13:58	irc2samus	in fact I would never expect to get an infinite list when partitioning a finite one
13:58	AimHere	What behaviour would you like instead, that wouldn't surprise the programmer?
13:58	irc2samus	an error
13:58	mknoszlig	irc2samus: unless the chunk size is 0 :)
13:59	irc2samus	but that's the point, partitioning by zero is an error
13:59	AimHere	It's not an error
13:59	AimHere	It's the logical behaviour
13:59	irc2samus	I don't see how that ebhaviour could be more useful that actually failing
13:59	irc2samus	no it's not
14:00	mknoszlig	irc2samus: chunk size -1 would be an error, i'd agree there ... for chunk size 0 an empty seq sounds logical...
14:00	AimHere	Sure it is. you partition your set into (/ count #{ ... } n) sets of size n; if n = 0, it's obvious what you get
14:01	irc2samus	it sounds like an error, this is programming not set theory and here if you want an infinite sequence of empty lists you'll ask for that right?
14:01	irc2samus	using this method to achieve that isn't actually useful
14:01	AimHere	(partition 0 <foo>) is one way of asking for that
14:01	irc2samus	and pretty much will happen on actual errors
14:02	irc2samus	AimHere: you're missing the point, that is not the way to do it it is instead A way to do it (now) which I find useless and dangerous
14:02	irc2samus	will you really do that in your code?
14:03	mknoszlig	irc2samus: fwiw, using -1 returns the empty list
14:03	irc2samus	my point is, it's more important to prevent possible errors that to follow philosohical reasonings about what "makes sense"
14:03	irc2samus	and also, it "makes sense" as a logical reasoning, not as a programming one
14:04	AimHere	I think not violating programmer expectations is the way to prevent possible errors
14:04	mknoszlig	irc2samus: i'd say that's a matter of opinion...
14:04	irc2samus	sure it is, but I wonder if there's actually a valid use for it
14:04	irc2samus	as for expectations, I would expect an error
14:04	AimHere	And if you keep your functions logically consistent, then it's easy to build up a fair set of expectations
14:04	AimHere	You're basing your expectations on what you get from other programming languages though
14:05	irc2samus	specially since code that generates that value might end up getting zero and that would definitely be unexpected
14:05	irc2samus	it's not about other languages, it's about a useless feature imho
14:06	irc2samus	which WIL cause bugs if you don't guard against
14:06	irc2samus	*WILL
14:06	mknoszlig	irc2samus: the utility of the feature is determined by context i'd say...
14:06	AimHere	So guard against them yourself, if you're worried
14:07	irc2samus	I would like to see an actual example of its usage
14:07	irc2samus	AimHere: you're proving my point
14:07	AimHere	Why?
14:07	clojurebot	AimHere: because you can't handle the truth!
14:07	irc2samus	(fwiw this isn't important to me, I noticed it and am curious but nothing else)
14:08	AimHere	I mean, if you've got code that barfs on an infinite stream of empty lists, you guard against it
14:09	irc2samus	AimHere: because that infinite list shouldn't be there in the first place, no one will expect that
14:09	irc2samus	not even you guys, you've reasoned it after I asked, but even the guess for -1 was incorrect
14:09	dnolen	irc2samus: there are many functions that don't validate inputs.
14:09	irc2samus	that's definitely not meeting expectations
14:09	irc2samus	it seems so
14:10	AimHere	When you asked, you stated what happened, so it's a bit unfair to accuse us of not getting it
14:10	ibdknox	dnolen: lol I just got asked if I want a phd :p
14:11	dnolen	ibdknox: HAHA
14:11	dnolen	ibdknox: why not man?
14:12	dnolen	ibdknox: hammock time on someone else's dime I say.
14:12	ibdknox	but being a student sucks :p lol
14:12	ibdknox	dnolen: that is true
14:13	dnolen	ibdknox: WHOA, props from Avi Bryant!
14:13	dnolen	ibdknox: you blowing up man!
14:13	dnolen	ibdknox: don't forget the small people, k?
14:14	RickInGA	ibdknox: I knew I should have gotten your autograph when I had the chance!
14:14	ibdknox	haha
14:14	ibdknox	funny what such a short amount of time can do
14:33	wkmanire	Help, newb question. (def m { :wat "wat" }). (m :wat) returns the same value as (:wat m).
14:33	wkmanire	I read that :wat is a function that looks itself up in a map.
14:33	zakwilson	Yes, that is intended behavior.
14:33	wkmanire	That made sense
14:33	wkmanire	but are maps functions that take keys?
14:33	wkmanire	as well as a data syntax?
14:33	Bronsa	yes
14:33	wkmanire	Ah... ok
14:33	wkmanire	Thanks.
14:34	zakwilson	Keywords are special here. A string key won't look itself up in a map.
14:35	jondot1	hi all. is there any way to improve error reporting from clojure? im trying to figure out where is my error but i get a blunt stack trace
14:36	dnolen	jondot1: 1.3 has better stack traces but no tools I know of expose it.
14:36	wkmanire	zakwilson: (def m { "wat" "wat!" }). (m "wat") -> "wat!". ("wat" m) -> java.lang.ClassCastException
14:36	wkmanire	understood.
14:36	jondot1	i see. i was wondering if there is a debug or verbose flag to turn on
14:37	zakwilson	Also, I think the compiler optimizes the keyword-as-a-function case, so (:wat m) is faster than (m :wat)
14:37	wkmanire	I sure hope my learning curve starts getting exponential pretty soon.
14:37	wkmanire	zakwilson: That's good to know.
14:37	zakwilson	It might. What's your background?
14:37	dnolen	jondot1: I suggest bugging the maintainers of the particular tool you use - better, submit a patch
14:38	wkmanire	zakwilson: OOP.
14:38	wkmanire	zakwilson: .Net, Javascript, Python etc...
14:38	jondot1	dnolen: well currently using compojure
14:38	wkmanire	zakwilson: Very little Java
14:38	dnolen	jondot1: even better would be patch to Clojure that exposes this stuff as a rich map so tools can present whatever they want.
14:39	wkmanire	zakwilson: I'm working out of cemerick's book.
14:39	lynaghk	cemerick: I just added friend 0.4.0 to my clojure 1.3 project and am getting an unzip error.
14:39	wkmanire	I'm chomping at the bit to get the point that I can start a web app with clojure and clojurescript.
14:39	zakwilson	wkmanire: well... you have a bit to learn then. Clojure is pretty different.
14:40	wkmanire	I just watched a slide show illustrating how clojurescript uses the closure compiler in advanced comp mode.
14:40	ibdknox	wkmanire: have you looked at my overtone-ipad thing?
14:40	wkmanire	I've used google's closure before so all in all, very enticing.
14:40	ibdknox	there's a video of me building it
14:40	wkmanire	ibdknox: Have not.
14:40	ibdknox	and it's an easy project to get started with
14:40	ibdknox	even easier now that cljs-template exists
14:41	ibdknox	wkmanire: http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/02/20/overtone-and-clojurescript/
14:41	wkmanire	ibdknox: I was just about to ask for the link. Thank you!
14:43	wkmanire	zakwilson: Functional programming is like an alien planet to me, not just clojure. I'm understanding everything I'm reading so far though.
14:43	wkmanire	This channel has been excellent at answering all of my questions too.
14:44	wkmanire	zakwilson: I have a feeling that the experience is going to be like learning chess. You learn the rules quickly but it takes a long time to get good at the game.
14:44	zakwilson	wkmanire: glad to hear it. Python, JS and many .NET languages support some degree of FP, but it's not the default paradigm.
14:44	sadger	wkmanire: I know it's probably a bit of a tangent but learn you a haskell is very good at intro level to the functional way of thinking
14:44	sadger	wkmanire: The joy of clojure has a section on thinking functionally actual
14:44	sadger	actually*
14:44	wkmanire	sadger: Yeah, I've gone through lyah once. Haskell was a bit too hardcore for my spare time.
14:45	sadger	wkmanire: get your hands on the joy of clojure
14:45	wkmanire	The plan is to get my footing with clojure and then pick up Haskell after not everything about it is differnet.
14:45	wkmanire	different*
14:45	wkmanire	to me that is.
14:45	scriptor	wkmanire: it's definitely worth a reread, but you have to go through it slowly and not just read through the whole thing in one go
14:45	AimHere	SICP has a fun way of dealing with FP. They introduce you to programming, and don't bother doing anything imperative until about page 160 or so
14:46	scriptor	one trick I found really useful was to try and implement a function when it describes one, before it shows you the source
14:46	AimHere	And even then, it's a kind of necessary evil to make some problems easier
14:46	zakwilson	Haskell is very mathy. That's not to say it isn't practical, but Clojure is entirely focused on practical concerns where Haskell is also focused on research.
14:46	wkmanire	Yeah, and I'm not a researcher.
14:46	wkmanire	I have bills to pay.
14:46	wkmanire	:D
14:46	wkmanire	I was recommended clojure by several people in #python.
14:46	zakwilson	I've written a little non-trivial Haskell. I ported most of it to Clojure. It was the right decision.
14:46	wkmanire	So far it's been great.
14:46	sadger	wkmanire: maybe they wanted rid of you :D
14:46	ibdknox	Clojure ftw
14:47	wkmanire	sadger: Probably, I babble a lot.
14:47	sadger	wkmanire: Might I suggested going to #php I hear it's great
14:47	wkmanire	But I'm (arguably) good at Python.
14:47	sadger	my typing is fail
14:47	wkmanire	Its fun being a newb again.
14:47	wkmanire	It's*
14:47	sadger	my fail typing is contagious it seems
14:47	zakwilson	Though if I wanted to transcode some structured text data, I think I might still reach for Haskell. Parsec just makes it so easy.
14:47	wkmanire	sadger: We've just met and you're already telling me to go to hell?
14:47	Wild_Cat	wkmanire: remember, #python is watching you. :p
14:48	sadger	wkmanire: in some way yes
14:48	sadger	ha ha
14:48	sadger	I jest
14:48	wkmanire	Wild_Cat: Yes, I'm sure it is.
14:48	emezeske	ibdknox: I'd just like to state for the record that, wow. (re light table).
14:48	sadger	I am a java programmer (well use it in my research) but starting with haskell and now clojure probably left haskell for the same reasons as wkmanire
14:48	ibdknox	emezeske: :)
14:49	zakwilson	ibdknox: are you making cool toys instead of working on libraries to make my life easier?
14:49	ibdknox	maybe
14:49	ibdknox	:p
14:49	zakwilson	This is not acceptable.
14:49	emezeske	zakwilson: his cool toy might also make your life easier
14:49	ibdknox	I was thinking of mocking up meteor, how about that?
14:49	RickInGA	zakwilson: he is making cool toys to make your life easier
14:49	sadger	is raynes still making a lyah style book about clojure?
14:50	ibdknox	sadger: yeah
14:50	sadger	not heard about it in ages
14:50	sadger	see I know him from dreamincode
14:50	ssideris_	emezeske: light table?
14:50	sadger	or OF him at least
14:50	emezeske	ssideris_: Yeah
14:50	zakwilson	Oh, I see. That's a code editor. I was thinking of a homebuilt MS surface clone or some such when I heard "light table".
14:51	Wild_Cat	how do hexadecimal escape codes work in Clojure? I want a string that contains a NUL character, how do I do that?
14:51	RickInGA	I was talking to somebody the other day who wants to do Clojure on a Surface table, not sure exactly what he had in mind, but I bet it will be cool
14:51	zakwilson	This might be acceptable. I like Emacs and Slime... but it doesn't really have anything on a Lisp Machine from 30 years ago.
14:52	ibdknox	RickInGA: I have lots of thoughts there
14:52	ibdknox	if only microsoft would give me a surface... ;)
14:52	hiredman	shrug
14:52	RickInGA	ibdknox: actually, I think he said he was submitting a proposal to you, GSOC, his name was Eric Caspray
14:52	ibdknox	oh yeah
14:52	ibdknox	he did
14:52	hiredman	I played with a surface a little, it was not very impressive
14:53	zakwilson	I thought you could buy them.
14:53	ibdknox	hiredman: because of the software though, right
14:53	ibdknox	?
14:53	ibdknox	zakwilson: they're like 10k
14:53	ibdknox	don't care that muc
14:53	hiredman	the whole thing
14:53	zakwilson	That's like two prototypes.
14:53	ibdknox	haha
14:53	hiredman	it was in a little table
14:53	zakwilson	I'm curious - did that work?
14:53	hiredman	at some the NERD cetner
14:53	hiredman	center
14:53	ibdknox	if I could have a drafting table sized surface...
14:53	ibdknox	that would be awesome
14:53	solussd	ibdknox: do you pronounce sqlkorma s-q-ljorma, or sequalkorma ? :)
14:54	solussd	*korma
14:54	ibdknox	solussd: it's just korma
14:54	solussd	crap, right. :)
14:54	ibdknox	sqlkorma only because I couldn't get korma.com :)
14:54	hiredman	but, like, I navigate and do everything via the keyboard, which lets me swizzle stuff around as good as the surface, and I can do it without looking
14:54	RickInGA	that's what you get for naming things pinot, noir and korma... already taken
14:55	wkmanire	ibdknox: http://www.internic.ma
14:55	wkmanire	The kor domain is available.
14:55	locojay	hi sry it's my first clojure day. why do i get a list of objects when doing json-str on a clojure map.
14:55	ibdknox	wkmanire: haha, not sure I care that much :)
14:55	locojay	using clojure via zmq to talk to some python code via json.
14:55	wkmanire	:D
14:56	ibdknox	hiredman: I want both. In no way would I try to replace the keyboard with it
14:56	ibdknox	hiredman: for the very things you're talking about
14:56	wkmanire	ibdknox: Besides, if you tell someone kor.ma, they're going to remember you having said "korma.com"
14:56	ibdknox	yeah
14:56	zakwilson	I rarely remember domains anymore. I google things.
14:57	zakwilson	"clojure korma" gets me what I want.
14:57	ssideris_	wow@light table (just watched the video)
14:57	ibdknox	zakwilson: me too
14:57	ibdknox	lol
14:58	ssideris_	so does it exist at all?
14:58	zakwilson	And now I'm looking at light table when I should be finishing learning Django.
14:58	ssideris_	even as a prototype?
14:59	zakwilson	(and why would I do that? because it has a bunch of pre-built apps so I can get certain kinds of client work done really fast)
14:59	RickInGA	zakwilson: Django?
14:59	ssideris_	oh it does
14:59	zakwilson	RickInGA: are you asking what it is? Why I would use it? If I'm crazy?
15:00	RickInGA	zakwilson: I am putting together a 'real quick' thing, and I am doing it in C#, becuase my clojure skills are not there yet. I already regret that decision. I want my clojre data structures!
15:00	ssideris_	ibdknox == cgrand?
15:00	ibdknox	== chris Granger
15:00	ssideris_	this is an amazing prototype
15:01	ssideris_	I really really like the drafting table metaphor
15:01	zakwilson	RickInGA: I understand. I default to Clojure when it makes sense. I don't think it really does for a generic brochure website + cms + e-store. Using something already built and customizing as little as possible makes sense to me.
15:01	raek	cgrand = Christophe Grand
15:01	ssideris_	I think it would take a lot of work to make the navigation easy for drafting tables, but it would really be worth it
15:01	ssideris_	where do I enlist to help with this? ;-)
15:02	ibdknox	once I figure out what in the world I'm going to do with it
15:02	zakwilson	Sell it on ebay!
15:02	RickInGA	zakwilson: yeah, I think the issue is, I can still get work done in C#, I just can't enjoy it anymore :)
15:02	ibdknox	I thought it would make a splash, but I didn't expect it to drain the water from the pool :p
15:02	muhoo	never underestimate the power of a good idea, perfectly timed
15:02	zakwilson	RickInGA: I know what you mean. I felt that way last time I used Rails.
15:03	zakwilson	Every step of the way, I was thinking "this is not simple".
15:03	wkmanire	I'm reading about destructuring. (def v [1 2 3]). In the expression (let [[x _ z] v]) (+ x z)), "_" just the goto variable name for place holders or does it have a special meaning syntactically?
15:03	alexyakushev	625 points in 3 hours for Light Table post on HN. That is pure win.
15:03	ssideris_	ibdknox: the other obvious thing (altough I
15:03	wkmanire	is "_" just the....
15:04	eggsby	hey light table
15:04	raek	wkmanire: it isn't treated specially
15:04	ssideris_	ibdknox: the other obvious thing (altough I'm sure you're being bombarded with ideas) is examples from clojuredocs along with the online help
15:04	eggsby	ibdknox: is this inspird from that bret victor talk? :p
15:04	zakwilson	Oh, good. It's above "a year with mongodb". Die, mongodb, die.
15:04	raek	it's just a convention
15:04	wkmanire	raek: If it is used repeatedly is it going to be reassigned?
15:04	ibdknox	eggsby: some, more from my time on VS
15:04	raek	wkmanire: you cannot mutate local variables in clojure
15:04	wkmanire	raek: Same as destructuring (let [[x x x] v]...
15:04	wkmanire	?
15:04	eggsby	it looks very cool either way ibdknox
15:05	wkmanire	raek: I know that.
15:05	raek	&(let [[_ _] [1 2]] _)
15:05	lazybot	⇒ 2
15:05	ibdknox	30k uniques
15:05	wkmanire	lazybot gave my client a character it couldn't interpret.
15:05	muhoo	"You release an album, one you quite like, and you wake up the next morning to find the entire rock press has sewn its tongue to the back of your trousers" -- review of "OK Computer", 1997
15:05	ibdknox	so far
15:05	solussd	ibdknox: light table looks awesome- where do you find the time for noir, korma, table table, etc ?
15:06	ssideris_	ibdknox: and search to include clojars. with the option of loading the libs with pomegranade. I think I'm having a nerdgasm
15:06	ibdknox	still averaging 800+
15:06	ibdknox	solussd: I'm quickly running out of it haha :)
15:06	wkmanire	raek: Ok, I've got it. Thank you for the clarification.
15:06	jondot1	whats the correct construct to say "I want to map in parallel, but only return a subset of the mapped-on collection" ?
15:07	zakwilson	Combine pmap and filter in the appropriate manner.
15:09	jondot1	zakwilson: you mean filter identity pmap (and return nil from pmap) ?
15:09	zakwilson	jondot1: I don't know what you're trying to do, so... maybe.
15:11	solussd	wait a tick… 1. the ability to generate or load code at runtime coupled with centralized repos (clojars/maven) and potentially runtime dependency management/fetching (reader + pomegranate)… did we give clojure programs everything they need to construct skynet?
15:11	jondot1	zakwilson: well im validating a list of items, using pmap. however i'd like items that are not valid by definition not to appear in the result list
15:11	zakwilson	Maybe you want to filter it first. Maybe you have a big collection and you need to chunk your pmap (I wrote a library function for that - see https://github.com/zakwilson/zutil-clj)
15:11	Wild_Cat	other question: I have a string with a significant number of literal double quotes and backslashes inside it. I don't suppose Clojure supports "nicer" forms of quotation, e.g. Python's raw strings or single-quoted/triple-quoted strings?
15:12	zakwilson	So what you really want is a parallel version of filter.
15:13	wkmanire	solussd: It still doesn't have my boots, my jacket or my motorcycle.
15:14	jondot1	zakwilson: yes
15:15	zakwilson	jondot1: (filter identity (pmap ...)) is probably the easiest route to that. Be advised that pmap doesn't work very well if the sequence is long and f is fast.
15:16	Null-A	ibdknox: are you planning to implement light table?
15:16	jondot1	zakwilson: yes, is what i'm doing currently. hoping to verify that its good enough
15:17	zakwilson	jondot1: see my above link if you don't get a roughly linear speedup from pmap over map.
15:17	zakwilson	(specifically zpmap in util.clj)
15:20	wkmanire	Wow. This is addictive.
15:20	wkmanire	You get a piece of code you don't understand and you just start (doc foo) and re-reading.
15:20	wkmanire	eventually it makes sense.
15:21	Null-A	wkelly: clojuredocs.org
15:21	Null-A	wkmanire: *
15:21	wkmanire	Null-A: tab completion failure.
15:21	Null-A	aigh
15:22	Null-A	clojure code is actually really readable even without comments I find
15:22	wkmanire	Null-A: Perhaps if you're familiar with the different FP strategies and core library functions.
15:22	wkmanire	I know neither. he he he
15:22	wkmanire	So these docstrings are awesome
15:22	wkmanire	I wish I had a REPL like this in VB.Net land.
15:23	Null-A	FP is definitely a big learning curve
15:23	Null-A	it'll change the way you write in all programming languages
15:23	Null-A	my python looks more like clojure code now
15:23	cduffy	Is there a way to terminate a sequence generated through iterate? I notice that returning nil doesn't.
15:24	Null-A	cduffy: (take 5 (iterate inc 0))
15:24	Null-A	it's a lazyseq
15:24	Null-A	if your logic for termination is a function, you can use take-while
15:24	jkrueger	cduffy: or in your case (take-while (complement nil?) (iterate ...))
15:26	cduffy	Null-A: ...yar, I realize that; just seems a shame to put the burden on the consumer
15:26	Null-A	cduffy: did jkrueger's solution meet your criteria?
15:27	cduffy	Nicely.
15:30	zakwilson	wkmanire: you think (doc ...) is awesome? Try Slime. Go to a symbol, C-c C-d C-d and you have its docs in a buffer.
15:31	wkmanire	zakwilson: Does this work from an inferior-lisp buffer?
15:31	AimHere	Aha
15:31	zakwilson	Want to see where it's used? There are a bunch of cross-reference functions for that too.
15:31	AimHere	(doc ...) works from inferior lisp
15:32	AimHere	I didn't know about C-c C-d C-d until now
15:32	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class clojure.lang.RT>
15:32	S11001001	AimHere: try M-. on a function name
15:32	AimHere	So I was annoyed that (doc ... ) didn't work in slime
15:32	wkmanire	zakwilson: What is slime exactly?
15:32	zakwilson	wkmanire: Slime has its own repl buffer.
15:32	wkmanire	zakwilson: I was able to install clojure-mode.
15:32	zakwilson	wkmanire: slime is... an IDE of sorts based on Emacs and the idea of talking to a running Lisp process.
15:32	AimHere	Slime is a lisp mode for emacs, able to handle multiple lisps
15:32	wkmanire	zakwilson: But I wasn't able to get the slime plugin installed. I'm unfortunately learning clojure from a windows box.
15:32	wkmanire	not slime
15:32	wkmanire	swank
15:33	AimHere	Lisp mode as in inferior-lisp, not a lisp programming mode
15:33	zakwilson	The server component is called Swank, and there's a Clojure port of that.
15:33	zakwilson	https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure <-- read all about it. I know nothing about using it on Windows.
15:33	lynaghk	cemerick: ping
15:33	zakwilson	I'd answer questions, but I must be off to the store before it closes.
15:34	wkmanire	zakwilson: Yeah, that won't install for me.
15:34	cemerick	lynaghk: pong
15:34	wkmanire	zakwilson: I already spoke with technomancy about it, he isn't sure why its failing either.
15:34	wkmanire	zakwilson: I'll pick your brain another day, you'll permit me that is.
15:34	wkmanire	:D
15:34	wkmanire	Have fun at the market.
15:34	wkmanire	if you'll permit me
15:34	zakwilson	wkmanire: there may be alternative ways to make it work, like using leiningen. I'll be back in half an hour or so, but I'm no expert on this.
15:35	lynaghk	cemerick: I'm just kicking the tires on friend 0.0.4. I think the credential-fn option in friend/authenticate isn't getting called.
15:35	wkmanire	zakwilson: Okeydokey.
15:35	wkmanire	My english grammar is going to hell. man. What is happening to me? I'm not just making typos, I'm literally forgetting entire words.
15:35	lynaghk	cemerick: moving the key to the first (and only) workflow works, but it doesn't get called if it's at the toplevel map.
15:35	emezeske	wkmanire: No problemo, signor.
15:35	scriptor	that's not grammar, wkmanire, :p
15:36	wkmanire	emezeske: señor?
15:36	wkelly	scriptor: case in point!
15:36	cemerick	lynaghk: Hrm, ok. Note that the app used in the lib's functional tests uses a top-level :credential-fn.
15:36	emezeske	wkmanire: Ah, si, si.
15:36	cemerick	Not that that's a bulletproof example. :-)
15:37	scriptor	wkmanire: signor is italian, I think
15:37	cemerick	lynaghk: is the usage small enough to paste?
15:37	lynaghk	cemerick: yeah, that's where I'm taking it from. If you put a "throw" in it though, everything runs fine, which suggests that it's not getting called.
15:37	cemerick	whoa
15:37	wkmanire	emezeske: Tá tentando falar em español comigo?
15:37	wkmanire	emezeske: ÇD
15:38	lynaghk	cemerick: yeah, let me whittle together a minimal example.
15:38	emezeske	wkmanire: No recuerdo mucho espanol, para quiero comprehendo tu
15:39	wkmanire	emezeske: Yeah, same here.
15:39	emezeske	^_^
15:39	wkmanire	emezeske: But that was portuguese, not spanish. :P Now if only I could speak clojure.
15:39	RickInGA	yo tambien
15:39	cemerick	lynaghk: FWIW, changing the :credential-fn in mock-app to this dumps all the credentials to out during the tests:
15:39	cemerick	(comp (partial creds/bcrypt-credential-fn users) #(do (println %) %))
15:40	emezeske	wkmanire: I always fail at telling the difference :(
15:42	wkmanire	emezeske: Well, I made a typo in my sentence to you. It should have been espanhol. Portuguese doesn't use ñ, and as far as I know spanish doesn't use ç, or at least not often.
15:42	lynaghk	cemerick: https://refheap.com/paste/2098
15:42	wkmanire	emezeske: But the indefinite verb forms are the same, -ir, -er, -ar, so sometimes it can be really difficult to tell if you don't understand the sentences.
15:43	cemerick	lynaghk: so what happens when you try to log in?
15:43	lynaghk	cemerick: that returns 302. If the credential-fn was actually called, it should return 500
15:44	lynaghk	er, 400.
15:47	cemerick	lynaghk: fiddling w/ your paste now
15:48	lynaghk	cemerick: thanks.
15:51	RickInGA	I had a situation that I couldn't figure out how to solve without mutating state... I built a little slide show that showed each picture for 5 seconds and then when it got to the end, it started the loop over
15:52	RickInGA	I set a variable that had the index to display, and incremented it each time
15:52	RickInGA	I figured there was some way to do it with vector and cycle, but I wasn't sure how
15:53	lynaghk	cemerick: inside friend.clj#authenticate* the credential-fn isn't being used anywhere
15:54	lynaghk	cemerick: at least, the default you've provided isn't. Presumably the kwarg map config is getting processed downstream as part of the request.
15:54	cemerick	lynaghk: yeah, it's only used in workflows; the top-level is available via the config attached to the request via ::auth-config
15:57	cemerick	oh, hah
15:58	cemerick	lynaghk: handler/site needs to be outside of friend/authenticate; no params are being parsed out
15:58	lynaghk	cemerick: ah!
15:58	lynaghk	cemerick: yeah, I was just looking at that stuff. Thanks
15:59	cemerick	handler/site or handler/api should generally be the last bit of middleware you apply.
15:59	lynaghk	site includes file serving from public, yeah?
15:59	lynaghk	it's been a while since I've been on the, er, serverside = )
15:59	cemerick	nope
15:59	cemerick	site ~= session, cookies, params
16:00	cemerick	api is just params
16:00	ibdknox	noir ftw :p
16:01	ibdknox	that was obligatory
16:01	cemerick	I'll bet this is going to be a common oversight. Maybe friend/authenticate should just compose in the param middlewares.
16:01	lynaghk	ibdknox: I'm actually using a noir-free fork of Fetch on this project =P
16:01	wkmanire	I have to admit, I really don't like the way certain expressions can end with "))))))".
16:01	cemerick	ibdknox: see, now you need to swap out noir's ad-hoc auth stuff :-P
16:02	wkmanire	If your editor doesn't do paren matching for you, it could be really difficult to deal with that.
16:02	gfredericks	wkmanire: well see that's where you're wrong. you DO like it.
16:02	emezeske	wkmanire: You need to have your editor match parens. Oh, and rainbow parens are helpful too.
16:02	wkmanire	emacs matches parens thanfully.
16:02	wkmanire	thankfully*
16:02	ibdknox	lynaghk: whyyyyy
16:02	gfredericks	also I think it's true that any instance of )))))) can be flattened with ->>
16:03	gfredericks	though that would probably be obnoxious
16:03	wkmanire	emezeske: rainbow parens == different color for each level of nesting?
16:03	emezeske	wkmanire: yeah
16:03	Iceland_jack	aka Lisp on acid
16:03	lynaghk	ibdknox: I wanted to use it as a super minimal API layer. All of my apps are static files
16:03	wkmanire	technomancy: I really really like your clojure-mode, and rainbowparens sound sexy....
16:03	ibdknox	ah
16:03	wkmanire	:D
16:04	wkmanire	gfredericks: what is ->>?
16:04	gfredericks	wkmanire: a macro that, along with ->, can clean up deeply nested s-expressions
16:04	lynaghk	ibdknox: yeah. Once instant literal stuff gets sorted out in CLJS I might make a proper public fork and contribute back, if you'd be willing to take those patches. I think Fetch should work without Noir though.
16:05	gfredericks	(foo (bar baz (bang (gee (whiz (man)))))) becomes (->> (man) (whiz) (gee) (bang) (bar baz) (foo))
16:05	jkkramer	,(->> (range) (filter even?) (map inc) (take 5))
16:05	clojurebot	(1 3 5 7 9)
16:05	wkmanire	gfredericks: What does that do? curry them together?
16:05	Iceland_jack	wkmanire: it's just list manipulation
16:05	gfredericks	it sticks each form at the end of the next form
16:05	wkmanire	Is this used commonly?
16:05	gfredericks	I think so
16:06	wkmanire	Is it reserved for special circumstances?
16:06	lancepantz	ibdknox: dude, i may have missed the conversation, but light table looks amazing
16:06	solussd	ibdknox: ok, so bret victor's video was inspiring, light table looks like it couple become real for clojure… so… when?! :D
16:06	lynaghk	cemerick: so basicially this app is going to have a login route and then an authorization required fetch route to serve XHR. From the CLJS I should just be able to POST to the former, and on success use the latter as usual. Does that sound reasonable?
16:06	gfredericks	wkmanire: nope; it's a macro, so it works at the syntactic level
16:06	gfredericks	the only concern is readability
16:06	cemerick	lynaghk: assuming you've got the session middleware up in front (via handler/site or otherwise), yes
16:07	lynaghk	cemerick: awesome. Thanks again for putting this library out there. I'm glad I saved this part of the project to the end, because the timing worked out = P
16:08	wkmanire	gfredericks: Thanks for the explanation. And what is ->?
16:08	gfredericks	wkmanire: inserts in the second position (first argument) instead of at the end
16:08	gfredericks	,(-> 8 inc dec (+ 10) str)
16:08	clojurebot	"18"
16:08	gfredericks	I guess that example would do the same thing with ->> :/
16:09	wkmanire	Wow, that knocked out most of the parens.
16:09	gfredericks	,(-> 8 inc dec (+ 10) (str "foo"))
16:09	clojurebot	"18foo"
16:09	Iceland_jack	,(->> 8 inc dec (+ 10) (str "foo"))
16:09	clojurebot	"foo18"
16:09	gfredericks	yeah; whenever you would have a list with a single element you can leave the list part out entirely and the macro adds it back for you
16:09	zakwilson	-> often feels like method chaining.
16:10	gfredericks	yeah
16:10	gfredericks	and ->> ends up being more useful with collections, due to the argument orders in the api
16:10	gfredericks	,(->> [1 34 8] (map inc) (filter even?) (clojure.string/join " -- "))
16:10	clojurebot	"2"
16:11	wkmanire	Well, I need to write some notes and then hang up clojure for the day. Otherwise I won't get anything else done. I haven't had this much fun with learning a new language in a long time.
16:11	zakwilson	I agree, and Clojure wasn't my first Lisp.
16:11	cemerick	lynaghk: Sure; ping me if you hit any further bumps. :-)
16:12	lynaghk	cemerick: will do.
16:12	lynaghk	thanks
16:12	wkmanire	How do I leave a message on the lazy bot?
16:12	wkmanire	I've forgotten.
16:12	lancepantz	paging amalloy
16:12	amalloy	$help mail
16:12	lazybot	amalloy: Send somebody a message. Takes a nickname and a message to send. Will alert the person with a notice.
16:13	wkmanire	$mail zakwilson I had to take off. Hopefully you'll be able to help me get swank working another day.
16:13	lazybot	Message saved.
16:14	wkmanire	later folks.
16:15	kasterma	I am trying to understand (some #{2} [2 3 4]), practical clojure doesn't seem to have #{} and I don't know how to google for it.
16:15	gfredericks	#{} is a set
16:15	gfredericks	clojure sets are also functions that return the argument if the argument is in the set
16:16	gfredericks	&[(#{2} 2) (#{2} 1) (#{3 4 5} 5)]
16:16	lazybot	⇒ [2 nil 5]
16:16	kasterma	Ahh, thx, gfredericks! Explains it all.
16:16	gfredericks	(some #{2} [2 3 4]) is essentially equiv to (some #(= % 2) [2 3 4])
16:16	gfredericks	for that purpose anyways
16:17	kasterma	That is the purpose I had, and now I realize I should have (class #{2})
16:17	kasterma	That would have given me the answer.
16:20	lancepantz	ibdknox: will you create a lighttable channel where we can all harass you about it in the same place?
16:21	edw	technomancy: Do you know if clojure-jack-in works with lein2?
16:24	gfredericks	how do I give defaults when destructuring a map?
16:24	gfredericks	oh it's :or not :defaults I bet
16:28	Null-A	lancepantz: i harassed him first
16:28	Null-A	he still hasn't answered my question
16:31	edw	technomancy: clojure-jack-in does not work with lein2, is that correct?
16:31	Null-A	Interactive development is not realistically feasible in most languages besides clojure because you need strong support for concurrency if you're going to have one thread executing your program and another thread changing state while the program is running
16:31	llasram	edw: Works fine for me
16:31	edw	Huh.
16:32	llasram	edw: Are you using the new lein-swank plugin?
16:32	Null-A	Once this IDE gets developed, Clojure will have yet another compelling argument why to use it
16:32	edw	llasram: What is "new"?
16:32	edw	1.5? 1.4?
16:33	llasram	Well, maybe it was just new-to-me. I was running swank-clojure with lein1, running lein-swank 1.4 now
16:33	llasram	(with lein2)
16:34	edw	OK, I'm hacking at clojure-mode.el let me configure it with a specific lein binary so I can switch between 1.7 and 2, and it's dying when I run lein2.
16:34	llasram	?
16:34	llasram	clojure-swank-command didn't work?
16:35	llasram	Er, setting it, it being a variable and all
16:36	livingston	is there any way to get a backquoted expression to read a symbol without a namesapce short of this mess `(~'x)
16:37	gfredericks	probably not...what do you need it to "read a symbol" for?
16:38	livingston	symbols as data
16:38	dnolen	livingston: then why not '[x] ?
16:38	gfredericks	it's not easy to do because it's not normally what you want to do when defining macros, which is backquote's most common use
16:39	gfredericks	so without knowing your higher-level purpose it's hard to suggest anything else
16:39	livingston	dnolen: because I need to have some other things evaluated and spliced in with ~ and ~@
16:39	livingston	yeah it's not for a macro, I just need to cons up some s-expressions as data
16:39	dnolen	livingston: no, there's no way to clean that up since syntax-quote is generally used for macros, and ~' is not the common case.
16:40	livingston	is there a way to specify the null or no namespace e.g. what you might expect if this was legal: /x
16:41	dnolen	livingston: not in a syntax-quoted expression.
16:42	livingston	most of my symbols are ns qualified, I just have a few "special" ones that don't need a ns, but I might have to give them one to avoid this :(
16:42	scriptor	hmm, getting some weird indenting issues with vimclojure
16:42	livingston	the reader accepts it, but is "?" a valid namespace? as in ?/x
16:42	gfredericks	livingston: maybe it'd be easier to de-qualify them with clojure.walk afterwards?
16:43	scriptor	it seems to keep adding an extra level of indentation, but only when there shouldn't be any identation at all
16:43	dnolen	livingston: the guarantees are enumerated here http://clojure.org/reader
16:43	dnolen	you can't depend on behavior not explicitly described there.
16:43	livingston	gfredericks: I can. and will if I must. I'm just trying to do as little as possible and make the reader work for me, so that I don't have something I have to maintain
16:44	gfredericks	I wonder if backquote being turned into a macro would help out this situation
16:45	livingston	so it looks like the namespace "?" is valid, as I'm reading the constraints on symbols.
16:47	livingston	this could be a huge sweeping re-write, but in the long run it might actually help a lot... sigh not the thing to discover friday afternoon.
16:47	gfredericks	at least it's friday the 13th
16:47	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/syntax-quote
16:48	gfredericks	,(read-string "[~foo ~@bar]")
16:48	clojurebot	[(clojure.core/unquote foo) (clojure.core/unquote-splicing bar)]
16:49	gfredericks	hiredman: why do you def your own versions of those ^?
16:50	hiredman	no, I have differently named things
16:50	livingston	gfredericks: oh so it is
16:51	hiredman	and it wouldn't really matter if you did, because the current implementation of syntax quote is in the reader
16:51	hiredman	so the macroexpander wouldn't get a chance to do anything
16:51	gfredericks	the purpose is to get ` without the symbol expansion, right?
16:51	gfredericks	maybe not
16:51	gfredericks	I don't know what this is for
16:51	hiredman	,[(clojure.core/unquote-splicing [1])]
16:51	clojurebot	#<IllegalStateException java.lang.IllegalStateException: Attempting to call unbound fn: #'clojure.core/unquote-splicing>
16:52	livingston	yes backtick with no symbol expansion would be ideal in this case.
16:52	gfredericks	hiredman: if the usage didn't include a literal backtick I would think it could work
16:53	gfredericks	,'(foo ~bar ~@baz)
16:53	clojurebot	(foo (clojure.core/unquote bar) (clojure.core/unquote-splicing baz))
16:53	gfredericks	macro just has to process that ^
16:53	gfredericks	but again that doesn't seem to be the purpose of this lib
16:54	hiredman	the problem is expansion
16:54	hiredman	e.g. if you are just passing this through the reader macros will not get expanded
16:55	hiredman	so you may as well just write a pre processor
16:55	hiredman	which is really what you should be doing anyway
16:55	lynaghk	cemerick: woo, I have it all working now. I feel like I'm hacking around your framework and/or HTTP though---I'm using the "interactive-form" workflow with :redirect-on-auth? false (just serving "success: true" JSON on the POST /login route) and my own handler that serves "success: false" JSON on failure.
16:55	hiredman	before you actually start in on the data you scan it for pattern X and change it to pattern Y
16:56	gfredericks	I don't understand, but I don't want to bother you further about it
16:57	cemerick	lynaghk: That may be a common workflow for non-refreshing frontends, for all I know.
16:57	cemerick	You should just use HTTP codes to indicate success and failure, though. :-)
16:57	hiredman	gfredericks: are you talking to me?
16:57	gfredericks	hiredman: yes, sorry
16:57	cemerick	anyway, it's hardly hacking around HTTP or the library, though.
16:58	hiredman	the purpose of my syntax-quote is to rewrite syntax-quote as a macro so it could/can be moved out of the reader
16:59	lynaghk	cemerick: yeah, I have no idea what non-refreshing frontends do. I kind of get the impression everyone just hacks it together somehow, but I'll dig into it and see what's what.
16:59	lynaghk	cemerick: and yeah, status codes sound good. If only because they're a great excuse to look at http://httpcats.herokuapp.com/
17:00	cemerick	that's the only way I use 'em :-)
17:01	gfredericks	hiredman: and I was talking about isolating the sexp-templating part of the functionality and trying to implement that by itself. as far as I understand things it could be done with a macro that's compatible with the unquote syntax; if that's what you were objecting to, then I don't understand why "the reader macros will not get expanded" -- everything I'm thinking of happens after read-time
17:02	kenneth	hey, so i
17:03	kenneth	so i'm working on a clojure script to process and import a massive dataset into a mongo db, and i have a simple php script that does the same thing to benchmark it against
17:03	kenneth	it runs orders of magnitude slower: the php script did 100k items in 12s, clojure has been running for 15min on 100k items and is still not done. what am i doing wrong?
17:03	kenneth	https://gist.github.com/df78a51e447c3a7f80bf
17:04	hiredman	kenneth: you are doing it sequentially
17:05	kenneth	(also couldn't figure out how to use cli params on a `lein run` so i had to hardcode the filename in the script)
17:05	kenneth	hiredman: in php i'm doing it all in one big while loop, sequentially, i even tried to parallelize in clojure using (seque 50 …)
17:05	hiredman	seque does not parallelize
17:06	hiredman	(doc seque)
17:06	clojurebot	"([s] [n-or-q s]); Creates a queued seq on another (presumably lazy) seq s. The queued seq will produce a concrete seq in the background, and can get up to n items ahead of the consumer. n-or-q can be an integer n buffer size, or an instance of java.util.concurrent BlockingQueue. Note that reading from a seque can block if the reader gets ahead of the producer."
17:06	franks42	Need some help understanding what it would take to implement a meta-data protocol for classes/deftype... (http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-304)
17:07	hiredman	kenneth: clojure.data.json is also the slowest clojure json library I've seen
17:07	franks42	Is the idea to define an interface/protocol to meta-data for the java.lang.Class class and store the meta-data map in a java-annotation?
17:08	y3di	omg this granger do some cool shit again
17:08	kenneth	hiredman: i thought that that would let the new seq get ahead of the current item by 50, ie. it'd always process 50 concurrently, ie. wouldn't wait for item 1 to be finished processing before starting 50
17:08	hiredman	kenneth: no
17:10	kenneth	hmm, crap. okay might have to revisit that, then. do you think that's why my performance is laughably bad?
17:10	franks42	chouser: are you around? would you mind to momment on http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-304 ?
17:13	septomin	so is ibdknox's thing real or just a faked demo (trollface)
17:13	hiredman	kenneth: I think mongo is junk, so who cares how fast you can write to it
17:13	dnolen	septomin: real.
17:14	dnolen	kenneth: regardless of hiredman's opinion of Mongo, it's very hard to say w/o profiling. If you can't load the data as fast as PHP something is up.
17:14	kenneth	hiredman: i quite like mongo. it can be a bitch to scale effectively.
17:14	kenneth	either way, though, mongo is not the issue in this case, since the same php script that does the same query on the same file runs 100x faster
17:14	hiredman	https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire note the SPEED section
17:15	hiredman	kenneth: if it doesn't scale well then what is the point? just use a nice sql database
17:16	hiredman	you just gave up the power of the relational model for nothing
17:17	kenneth	that's a huge controversial debate and there's good points on either side. for us, the trade off was worth it, and we've managed to scale quite effectively, even though there was some pain
17:17	hiredman	shrug
17:18	kenneth	but we serve > 1B requests a month on mongo effectively, so it works out alright
17:18	hiredman	so?
17:18	gfredericks	,(/ 1000000000 (* 30.5 24 3600))
17:18	clojurebot	379.47783849423195
17:19	kenneth	https://github.com/mmcgrana/clj-json -- is this a good option?
17:19	Wild_Cat	we have Mongo running 2500+ queries per second and it works out all right.
17:20	dnolen	kenneth: it uses jackson so it's pretty fast.
17:21	kenneth	ok script just finished, 13m in clojure, 12s in php
17:21	kenneth	gonna try to use the other json lib
17:21	dnolen	kenneth: you can keep trying libs or profile.
17:21	kenneth	dnolen: i have no idea how to profile clojure. do you have a link / direction?
17:22	dnolen	kenneth: http://visualvm.java.net/
17:22	dnolen	kenneth: you can attach to the Clojure process.
17:23	dnolen	kenneth: if a sequential Clojure version doesn't take < 12s then something is wrong.
17:23	pjstadig	kenneth: you want to parse JSON on JVM Clojure?
17:24	jsabeaudry	kenneth, keep us updated, I'm still trying to figure out why ajax request on my local server take up to 200ms for trivial stuff and the JSON might play a role
17:26	dnolen	kenneth: also there's no guarantee that monger itself is tuned for perf. looks like they use clojure contrib JSON.
17:34	kenneth	ok, is there an efficient way to keep a mutable count of how many items have been processed?
17:35	dnolen	kenneth: use an atom.
17:35	cemerick	Man, this JDK 1.5 thing is getting to be a real drag.
17:36	ibdknox	what'd I miss?
17:36	cemerick	ibdknox: REPL stuffs killing on 1.6, and bombing hard on 1.5.
17:37	ibdknox	:(
17:37	ibdknox	septomin: totally fake, I'm pretty sure he has the most elaborate mirror setup you've ever seen.
17:38	dnolen	ibdknox: :P
17:38	septomin	i heard there was actually a guy in a box behind the screen, moving the variables around
17:39	ibdknox	these are not the vars you are looking for
17:39	septomin	so are you working on this "for real" then?
17:40	ibdknox	I'm not sure to be honest
17:40	ibdknox	I'm a bit surprised at the response
17:40	ibdknox	and I've got lots of interesting people to talk to it sounds like
17:40	septomin	it's just a thing that seems obvious we should have and yet don't
17:41	septomin	that tends to get people interested!
17:41	ibdknox	:)
17:42	alexyk	what's the status of incanter? I see some pull requests merged but not much activity from @liebke
17:45	kenneth	,(deref (atom 10))
17:45	clojurebot	10
17:48	raek	kenneth: it's even more efficient if you can manage to keep the count in a function parameter or a loop binding and recur
17:48	raek	but then it's not really mutable
17:48	kenneth	dnolen: hmm, visualvm seems to be a GUI app. is there anything CLI? i'm running this on a fire walled server cluster with no GUI
17:49	dnolen	kenneth: I'm only familiar with VisualVM and YourKit
17:50	arohner	kenneth: there's jconsole, which has some of the same functionality, but not a complete replacement
17:50	arohner	X forwarding is another option
17:51	amalloy	kenneth: most reasonable profilers connect to remote apps. so you probably want to forward a port through the firewall and run the gui remotely
17:53	kenneth	ok i'll give that a shot
17:53	kenneth	your kit any good?
17:54	dnolen	kenneth: your use of dorun is suspect. you probably want doseq. Your script might be thrashing in GC if it's that slow.
17:54	kenneth	(doc dorun)
17:54	clojurebot	"([coll] [n coll]); When lazy sequences are produced via functions that have side effects, any effects other than those needed to produce the first element in the seq do not occur until the seq is consumed. dorun can be used to force any effects. Walks through the successive nexts of the seq, does not retain the head and returns nil."
17:54	kenneth	(doc doseq)
17:54	clojurebot	"([seq-exprs & body]); Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with bindings and filtering as provided by \"for\". Does not retain the head of the sequence. Returns nil."
17:55	dnolen	kenneth: also you should start the script with the server flag set and a good amount of memory.
17:57	kenneth	(doc doall)
17:57	clojurebot	"([coll] [n coll]); When lazy sequences are produced via functions that have side effects, any effects other than those needed to produce the first element in the seq do not occur until the seq is consumed. doall can be used to force any effects. Walks through the successive nexts of the seq, retains the head and returns it, thus causing the entire seq to reside in memory at one time."
17:57	dnolen	kenneth: https://gist.github.com/e0fb72743c3c9d94d646
17:59	dnolen	kenneth: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/1b45c27dc4627b99
18:01	kenneth	hmm
18:01	dnolen	kenneth: if that gist doesn't work for you after giving the JVM a reasonable amount of memory and setting the -server flag - then I'd take serious look at a profiler.
18:02	dnolen	kenneth: whenever people show up asking why Clojure is orders of magnitude slower than X it boils down to 2 things.
18:02	dnolen	1) GC thrashing
18:02	dnolen	2) Reflection
18:02	hiredman	(also using line-seq when you where advised against it)
18:03	pipeline	that particular example
18:03	pipeline	is one of the places old school CL implementations are good
18:03	pipeline	you never doubt how much one function implementation versus another conses in cmucl
18:03	pipeline	but we're on the jvm, so, live with jvm tools :\
18:04	alexyk	so anybody using in canter nowadays here?
18:06	kenneth	ok, so i've got it down to executing the whole thing minus the mongo part both in clj/php. clj does it in 2.3s, php in 1.2s. seems acceptable
18:07	dnolen	kenneth: did you try CongoMongo?
18:08	kenneth	i did not, will try
18:08	hiredman	kenneth: how are you timing this?
18:08	kenneth	`time php …`
18:08	kenneth	`leon repl; (time (import-file "…"))`
18:10	dnolen	kenneth: and how are you running the Clojure?
18:12	kenneth	dnolen: what do you mean?
18:12	kenneth	also i haven't figured out how to do the server flag / set max memory yet, trying to look that up. lein doesn't like flags on the cli, and uberjar gives me a jar that exceptions out when run (can't find importer.core)
18:19	dnolen	kenneth: if you're using lein run - you're probably seeing the cost of starting JVM compiling all of Clojure and your script - then running it. so the actually time spent doing work is probably a small slice of 2.3s.
18:20	kenneth	well i'm doing (time …) in clojure in the repl
18:20	kenneth	`time lein run` is actually 7.5s or so, with 5s of start the hvm
18:20	kenneth	dnolen: ^
18:20	dnolen	kenneth: ah k.
18:27	kenneth	congomongo doesn't seem to support upsert
18:27	kenneth	does it?
18:32	mdeboard	Is clojure-hadoop the standard lib for working with hadoop still?
18:33	amalloy	of course it does
18:33	amalloy	it's true by default iirc
18:34	jayunit100	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSONP this makes me think about macros
18:36	jayunit100	mdeboard : Unless your doing something complex you don't really need a custom lib for doing hadoop via clojure - i would consider using the standard lib and calling the java functions. They are easily callable from clojure b/c the m/r api is pretty simple. Alternatively, use streaming.
18:36	mdeboard	Eh I like the ease of the defjob abstraction
18:37	mdeboard	Streaming isn't an option
18:45	sritchie	mdeboard: have you used cascalog?
18:45	kenneth	if the doc says: ([collection old new {:upsert true, :multiple false, :as :clojure, :from :clojure}])
18:45	kenneth	is the correct syntax (update! :collection {old…} {…} :upsert true)
18:45	kenneth	or (update! :collection {old…} {…} {:upsert true})
18:45	sritchie	it's a much higher level abstraction over Hadoop
18:46	sritchie	jayunit100: even for simple stuff, it's much easier than setting all these damned formats, etc --
18:46	sritchie	tuples and tuples
18:46	sritchie	tuples and taps, ratehr
18:46	sritchie	rather*
18:46	mdeboard	sritchie: Well, I'm just learning about Hadoop and mapreduce jobs in general. I know what Cascalog is and what it does, but I'm still fumbling around with general concepts of hadoop
18:47	sritchie	mdeboard: cascalog sort of protects you from all of that jank
18:47	sritchie	and eases you in slowly :)
18:47	sritchie	but go for it, good to get a handle on the low level
18:47	mdeboard	sritchie: In what way?
18:47	sritchie	you don't have to cast your problem in terms of manipulations of key-value pairs
18:48	sritchie	you can use tuples of multiple fields, group on those fields without writing custom comparators, etc
18:48	sritchie	it's really hard to do that stuff in MR
18:48	sritchie	also, you can use any clojure function and data structure out of the box w/ cascalog
18:48	mdeboard	Yeah, I'm trying to parse some log files as an exercise, it's kind of hurting my brain
18:49	sritchie	mdeboard: I definitely recommend cascalog for that
18:49	sritchie	got an example, 1 sec
18:49	kenneth	excellent, switching to congomongo fixes the performance issues
18:49	kenneth	i have the whole thing running in 14s, which is almost as good as php's 12s
18:49	sritchie	https://gist.github.com/7627b0c9cdf4c9e551b7
18:49	sritchie	mdeboard: ^^
18:49	mdeboard	I started with cascalog but it kind of seemed like I was missing something so I went for a dive into lower level stuffs
18:50	mdeboard	hm
18:50	mdeboard	huh
18:50	mdeboard	sritchie: Thanks, this is actually really helpful
18:51	sritchie	np
18:51	sritchie	happy to help w/ anything
18:51	sritchie	feel free to head over to #cascalog
18:52	bbloom	i'm going through some #clojure logs looking for a faster way to build sorted sets. in particular i found this conversation: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2010-02-04.html#11:01
18:53	bbloom	i'd like to be able to quickly save/load reasonably large sorted sets for a database-index-like operation i'm doing
18:54	bbloom	i can use transients or something when loading vectors, which is much faster, but it doesn't seem like there is an efficient way to load pre-sorted data
18:56	kenneth	if anybody can find more stuff to critique in my new code: https://gist.github.com/df78a51e447c3a7f80bf
18:56	kenneth	i have the performance to be almost as good as the equivalent php script, but not completely. i'm okay with this though
18:57	hiredman	bbloom: have you considered using an embedded sql server?
18:57	kenneth	i'd be interested in hearing if you have any ideas of how to implement parallelism / concurrency, so i can process, say, 10 lines at a time
18:58	bbloom	hiredman: nope. once my datastructures are in memory, everything is fast and simple & nice… the issue is loading a saved sorted-set is slower than i'd like
19:00	bbloom	ideally, i'd like to serialize the internal structure of the sorted-set… so that no rebalancing etc needs to happen on load
19:00	hiredman	bbloom: sure, but switching to something like derby or hsqldb (which can persist data to disk) might be easier than figuring out how to store a sorted set
19:01	jayunit100	i want to try cascalog to we need a query language thats more dynamic than hive.
19:02	bbloom	hiredman: and bring along a lot of other stuff i don't want or need :-P
19:03	hiredman	shrug
19:04	gfredericks	I am using the aleph http client and having trouble when the request has a body; the effect is that the result channel gets nil enqueued for some reason
19:04	gfredericks	no explicit failure that I can tell
19:09	devn	how can I scroll to the bottom of the page using clojurescript + google closure?
19:19	dnolen	bbloom: you could re-implement PersistentTreeMap in Clojure and support that. would simplify getting that into ClojureScript as well ;)
19:19	bbloom	dnolen: haha i was just thinking about that
19:20	bbloom	i'm reading PersistentTreeMap.java
19:20	dnolen	bbloom: it's not crazy amount of code and we definitely want that in CLJS :D
19:22	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, looks like this file is 1,000 lines and doesn't have any real dependencies
19:22	wei_	I'm sending a series of http requests, and I want to block until either I receive a response (via callback function) or 1 second has passed. what's the clojurey way to do this?
19:22	bbloom	what I really need is a way to get to the private red black tree & the private constructor which accepts such a tree node
19:23	wei_	the callback function lives inside a proxy- so I think that complicates things a bit
19:24	bbloom	dnolen: cljs just got persistent hash maps right? no one is working on persistent tree maps?
19:24	dnolen	bbloom: so probably means 450 lines of CLJ tops ;)
19:25	dnolen	bbloom: yes mmarcyk is working on PHMs. We still need to assess.
19:25	dnolen	bbloom: probably stick w/ ObjMap for small sizes and bump up to PHM when update time dominates ObjMaps
19:26	bbloom	makes sense
19:27	bbloom	is there any stance for or against migration of core data structures form java to clj ?
19:27	bbloom	from* java
19:28	bbloom	ignoring cljs for a moment
19:28	dnolen	bbloom: not really beyond low priority since we already have them working in Java.
19:28	bbloom	makes sense. and we'd expect the perf to be comparable? i've gotten good perf out of clj, but don't know relative to java "natively"
19:29	dnolen	bbloom: case where you might get more response - new better stuff. Like RRB-Tree in CLJ
19:29	wei_	^ just looping back.. I think I can do that with a promise
19:29	dnolen	bbloom: perf should be competitive, all the tools are there to accomplish this, see gvec.clj
19:30	dnolen	gvec.clj is a bit of complex case since gvec can store types beyond objects. But it shows competitive perf w/ Java is possible.
19:30	eggsby	aleph looks interesting
19:30	dnolen	bbloom: certainly if you want to get something into CLJ I think it would need to be as fast as if you'd written it Java.
19:31	bbloom	dnolen: what exactly is this gvec file?
19:31	bbloom	what uses it?
19:31	dnolen	bbloom: clj/clojure/gvec.clj
19:31	bbloom	yeah, i have it open
19:31	bbloom	but i also have PersistentVector.java open
19:31	bbloom	:-)
19:31	dnolen	bbloom: nothing uses it, but people can use it if space dominates.
19:33	dnolen	bbloom: a gvec of bytes, char will be much smaller than the standard PV
19:33	bbloom	ah, i see vector-of
19:34	bbloom	interesting
19:42	bbloom	dnolen: I could also just do a little bit of evil reflection to get at the Node implementation and the constructor i'd need… heh
19:44	bbloom	it's a shame that the serialization format wouldn't really be general enough. the reader would need to be able to read the comparator
19:44	bbloom	for a sorted-set, that is
19:46	bbloom	=> (binding [print-dup true] (println (sorted-set-by #(compare (:foo %1) (:foo %2)))))
19:46	bbloom	#=(clojure.lang.PersistentTreeSet/create [])
19:46	bbloom	sadly loses information
19:46	hiredman	(hypersqldb...)
19:47	bbloom	heh
19:49	bbloom	hiredman: i have a very particular query pattern that i'm optimizing for. i got much better results out of intersecting zsets on redis than i did out of postgres. i'm getting comparable results in memory with clojure, avoiding the complexity of another networked server for durability
19:49	dnolen	bbloom: thus I think constructing a new type to do this better instead of trying to bend what exists to your will.
19:49	dnolen	bbloom: it's an interesting idea to explore, I think has some neat implications for CLJS, higly optimized loading of data structures.
19:50	dnolen	bbloom: but trying to reuse the existing data structures for this is a waste of time IMO.
19:50	Raynes	I am in West Hollywood. :D
19:50	bbloom	dnolen: the issue is that i don't want to throw out some of the really nice core libraries that are hard coded against clojure.lang.Sorted — subseq for example
19:51	bbloom	although i just started thinking about this
19:51	bbloom	i guess i could implement Sorted :-P
19:51	dnolen	bbloom: yep
19:51	dnolen	bbloom: your new thing can interop with everything because that's how Clojure was designed.
19:51	bbloom	:-)
19:51	amalloy	hey Raynes, welcome
19:52	Raynes	amalloy: :D
19:55	bbloom	dnolen: i think i'm just gonna ignore optimizing loads for now & see how far i can get without it… if it gets too slow, i'll investigate rewriting PersistentTreeMap&Set in clj. If I do that, I'll make sure it runs on cljs. Note that there are a lot of "IF"s in that sentence
19:56	muhoo	what is #= and where is it documented?
19:56	dnolen	bbloom: sounds like a plan ;)
19:56	dnolen	muhoo: it's not documented and probably won't be.
19:58	muhoo	what does/did it do though?
19:59	bbloom	my understanding is that it's a reader macro used by print-dup for ensuring the loaded type matches the printed one
19:59	muhoo	ah, thanks
19:59	bbloom	,(binding [print-dup true] (print-str {}))
19:59	clojurebot	"#=(clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap/create {})"
20:19	muhoo	why would one use ::foo instead of :foo?
20:20	muhoo	i understand what's different-- ::foo is really :user/foo-- , but my question is, why would you use it?
20:21	dnolen	muhoo: to prevent clashes.
20:21	dnolen	muhoo: keywords are also used to create hierachies for multimethods.
20:22	muhoo	thanks
21:03	kenneth	whoops
21:03	kenneth	accidentally added 10 million records to the wrong db
21:03	kenneth	damnit congomongo
21:07	muhoo	damn hammer keeps hitting me in the thumb :-)
21:18	rhc	sorry for the noob question, but how do you switch from the repl buffer to the clojure buffer in emacs? i'm trying C-c C-z like this says https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/blob/master/README.md
21:18	kasterma	C-x b is the switch buffer function.
21:19	rhc	ah, thanks
21:19	rhc	figured it was finally time to learn emacs :)
21:25	muhoo	it's good to know emacs, but you can use clojure from a bunch of other editors/ide's too, fyi
21:28	muhoo	huh, that's weird. org.openid4java:openid4java-consumer:jar:0.9.6 supposedly depends on org.apache.maven:super-pom:pom:2.0, but super-pom 2.0 is not in maven central?
21:30	kenneth	woohoo
21:30	kenneth	all this work has paid off
21:31	kenneth	my clojure importer is getting like 2x the performance than the php script did
21:31	septomin_	kenneth: what were the main bottlenecks?
21:32	kenneth	in clojure or php?
21:32	septomin_	in the clojure version
21:32	kenneth	i was getting 100x worse in clojure when i started
21:32	kenneth	the json parsing library i was using was ridiculously slow
21:33	kenneth	(data.json from contrib)
21:33	muhoo	oh, that's old. you've switched to cheshire?
21:33	kenneth	no, using clj-json
21:33	muhoo	supposdely cheshire is e'en better
21:33	kenneth	seemed equivalent from the mechmark on cheshire's page
21:34	kenneth	the other thing was monger is also ridiculously slow
21:34	kenneth	no idea why, but switched it for congomongo
21:34	kenneth	and had to rewrite some funky code, i think i was not understand (seque …) right
21:34	kenneth	so i'm doing it sequentially now, instead of attempting to parallelize
21:34	muhoo	great, good to know!
21:37	alex_baranosky	if I want to call a private function I can just access the var
21:37	kenneth	this is the final code btw. i'm sure i could probably shave off a couple more issues if i tried, but i don't know enough to—https://gist.github.com/df78a51e447c3a7f80bf
21:37	alex_baranosky	that approach seems to be failing me when trying to use a private macro
21:38	gfredericks	alex_baranosky: if you do it that way you end up calling the macro as a function, right?
21:38	gfredericks	at runtime rather than compile-time?
21:38	gfredericks	,(#'and false false true)
21:38	clojurebot	true
21:38	alex_baranosky	yeah I figured... Is there any way to get at this code without copy-n-paste?
21:39	alex_baranosky	,(#'let [x 3] x)
21:39	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
21:39	gfredericks	you might be able to def a local macro that defers to the other one
21:39	alex_baranosky	let me try that
21:40	gfredericks	or maybe there are some plumbing commands for macroexpansion that you could call manually... :/
21:40	gfredericks	alex_baranosky: be careful that you pay attention to the first two args, which are special
21:40	gfredericks	&env and &form I think?
21:40	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: env in this context
21:41	alex_baranosky	don't see &env and &form being useful here
21:41	gfredericks	alex_baranosky: right but the first two args to a macro are those two things
21:41	gfredericks	thus ##(#'and false false true)
21:41	lazybot	⇒ true
21:41	gfredericks	whereas ##(and false false true)
21:41	lazybot	⇒ false
21:42	alex_baranosky	oh, funky
21:42	alex_baranosky	I see
21:43	alex_baranosky	gfredericks, there seems to always be something new to learn
21:43	gfredericks	so you could maybe pass them through (though not sure which order), but since your private macro probably doesn't use them it probably doesn't matter
21:43	gfredericks	alex_baranosky: heck yes there does.
21:44	muhoo	sorry for the stupid question, but why not make the macro public then?
21:44	alex_baranosky	I didn't realize you could call a macro as a function like that
21:44	gfredericks	usually I learn by saying something and then amalloy corrects me
21:44	gfredericks	muhoo: probably not his code
21:44	alex_baranosky	yeah, dude's a machine
21:44	alex_baranosky	not my code
21:44	alex_baranosky	I could copy and paste
21:44	alex_baranosky	but I hate doing that
21:44	alex_baranosky	plus, I'm learning stuff now :D
21:45	gfredericks	calling a macro as a function might be secret unsupported behavior; but if you're trying to call private things that's probably not something you care about
21:45	alex_baranosky	I'm doing somethign wrong
21:45	gfredericks	wut ur macro look like
21:46	alex_baranosky	(defmacro defnilsafe2 [a b c]
21:46	alex_baranosky	(list #'incubator/defnilsafe nil nil a b c))
21:46	gfredericks	I think if you remove the word list it'll work
21:46	gfredericks	you're probably trying to emit code that calls the other macro, when you really want to actually call the other macro
21:46	gfredericks	and return the result of that from your macro
21:46	alex_baranosky	that makes sense, since it is happening at compile time
21:47	alex_baranosky	BAM!
21:47	gfredericks	BAM!
21:47	alex_baranosky	thanks
21:47	alex_baranosky	that did the trick
21:47	gfredericks	~bam
21:47	clojurebot	Pardon?
21:47	gfredericks	clojurebot: bam is BAM!
21:47	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
21:47	gfredericks	~bam
21:47	clojurebot	bam is BAM!
21:47	muhoo	emiril iin the house
21:47	gfredericks	hmmm
21:47	gfredericks	I've forgotten how to make him leave off the first part
21:47	alex_baranosky	feels great to learn that new piece of Clojure tonight
21:48	gfredericks	clojurebot: forget bam
21:48	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
21:48	alex_baranosky	do you know if &form or &env comes first?
21:48	gfredericks	nope
21:48	gfredericks	easy to find out though now that I think about it
21:48	muhoo	cloujurebot never forgets :-)
21:48	gfredericks	form then env
21:49	alex_baranosky	I'm adding nilsafe arrows to the swiss-arrows project
21:49	gfredericks	wtharetheswiss-arrows
21:49	alex_baranosky	final macro: (defmacro defnilsafe2 [docstring non-nilsafe nilsafe]
21:49	alex_baranosky	(#'incubator/defnilsafe &form &env docstring non-nilsafe nilsafe))
21:50	alex_baranosky	gfredericks, https://github.com/rplevy/swiss-arrows
21:51	gfredericks	oh man I've wanted some tricked out arrows before
21:51	alex_baranosky	I'm falling in love with the diamond wand
21:53	gfredericks	oh crap that diamond wand is slick
21:54	gfredericks	I was imagining you'd give an index but that was a terrible idea
21:55	alex_baranosky	I feel like it makes code like this clearer: https://github.com/marick/Midje/blob/master/src/midje/ideas/facts.clj#L80
21:55	alex_baranosky	I don't think it is the normal solution, but sometimes ->>/-> aren't as easy to read imo
21:56	gfredericks	yeah I think otherwise you'd use an outer (->) with a single ->> on the fourth line
21:56	alex_baranosky	or wrap a funciton in #( ... % ...)
21:56	gfredericks	yeah it's ewy :(
21:56	alex_baranosky	and even then in long forms like that it becomes confusing where the arguments are getting put
21:57	gfredericks	<<- looks interesting too
21:57	muhoo	i am very glad to have <> for cases where i can't gerrymander the args i want to thread into the first or last
21:57	muhoo	though, i have to say, rhickey seems to have put a LOT of work into making functions threadable by either first or last arg
21:58	gfredericks	there are some things arrows can buy. for everything else, there's the diamond wand.
21:58	alex_baranosky	I agree I do -> then ->>, then -<> when the first two don't look clean
22:00	gfredericks	welp. I'm using this from now on.
22:01	alex_baranosky	I just submitted a pull requesto adda nilsafe wand, -?<>
22:01	gfredericks	-<?> will have some other behavior presumably
22:01	gfredericks	perhaps questionable behavior
22:02	alex_baranosky	-?< would fork to a random path
22:02	gfredericks	yeah I was just thinking of a randomized version
22:04	gfredericks	lisp has existed for decades but we still don't have vertical lists
22:29	jayunit100	howcome you cant dereference a list outside a macro ?
22:29	jayunit100	@(list 3)
22:29	jayunit100	,@(list 3)
22:29	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IDeref>
22:30	jayunit100	ooops i meant
22:32	jayunit100	the thingy where you "unlist" a list... i.e. bring all its elements up one level.
22:32	gfredericks	splice-unquote?
22:32	alex_baranosky	you can
22:32	jayunit100	splicing yup
22:32	alex_baranosky	it just has to be done inside of syntax quote:
22:32	gfredericks	,`(foo bar ~@[4 5 3] haha)
22:32	clojurebot	(sandbox/foo sandbox/bar 4 5 3 ...)
22:32	alex_baranosky	,`(~@[1 2 3])
22:32	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
22:32	jayunit100	hmm okay i was doing '
22:33	alex_baranosky	' is quote
22:33	jayunit100	(~@'(list 3))
22:33	jayunit100	,(~@'(list 3))
22:33	clojurebot	#<IllegalStateException java.lang.IllegalStateException: Attempting to call unbound fn: #'clojure.core/unquote-splicing>
22:33	alex_baranosky	quote is much less complicated
22:33	alex_baranosky	,'foo
22:33	clojurebot	foo
22:33	jayunit100	,(~@(qoute (list 3)))
22:33	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: qoute in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
22:33	yoklov	,`(~@'(list 3))
22:33	clojurebot	(list 3)
22:34	yoklov	,`(~@(list 3))
22:34	clojurebot	(3)
22:34	jayunit100	Ah oops okay
22:34	alex_baranosky	misspelled quote there jayunit100
22:34	jayunit100	:)
22:34	jayunit100	yup
22:36	jayunit100	Why do we need that syntax quote.
22:36	jayunit100	I mean, in a normal macro it makes sense, but in this case, I would think that the splicer should still work
22:36	jayunit100	macro or not, splice should... splice ? right.
22:37	ibdknox	it is
22:37	ibdknox	what does that splice turn into?
22:37	ibdknox	(list 3) => 3 :)
22:37	gfredericks	syntax quote and normal quote are two different kinds of quoting
22:37	gfredericks	the difference between them is independent of whether or not you're using them in a macro
22:38	gfredericks	syntax quote has splicing, normal quote doesn't
22:38	ibdknox	~@(list 3) => list 3
22:38	clojurebot	No entiendo
22:38	ibdknox	and then you wrap it in parens
22:38	ibdknox	causing it to execute
22:40	ibdknox	nm, that's not really true
22:51	alex_baranosky	ibdknox, so how far is LightTable from being usable :)
22:52	gfredericks	and what will be the monthly cost for using HeavyTable
22:54	alex_baranosky	also, will it come with paredit?
23:00	yoklov	wait, syntax-quote is different than quote?
23:00	yoklov	i thought it was just like quasiquote
23:00	yoklov	(from scheme)
23:00	yoklov	oh, it also resolves symbols?
23:01	gfredericks	resolves symbols and does the insertion thing and also the foo# symbols
23:01	gfredericks	&['foo# `foo#]
23:01	lazybot	⇒ [foo# foo__6774__auto__]
23:01	yoklov	oh, didn't know the foo# only worked in syntax quote
23:03	yoklov	still makes lists though.
23:04	yoklov	(unlike rackets syntax-quote, which make syntax objects, which are like lists but the compiler yells at you _much_ more)
23:05	gfredericks	that sounds...strange
23:23	yoklov	its really annoying, to be honest. it's for hygene, i guess.
23:26	yoklov	another reason i'm happy to be writing clojure :p
23:53	muhoo	ibdknox: congratulations, you win HN today