#clojure – 2012-04-12

2012-04-12

00:52	technomancy	quil! http://p.hagelb.org/quilin-villain.png
00:54	wkmanire	technomancy: Nice
00:55	i_s	i'm trying to build a list recursively and i'm having some issues. can someone take a look? https://gist.github.com/950c2fcd2b5ef5c66024 (see line 81 for the problem)
00:57	technomancy	i_s: you're using `for` for side-effects; you should use doseq.
00:58	i_s	technomancy: you mean the print statements?
00:58	technomancy	i_s: oh, I see; those are just for debugging
00:58	i_s	yeah
00:59	technomancy	that's a pretty convoluted recursion; are you sure it can't be expressed in a single reduce?
01:03	i_s	hmm, i'll think about it. was worried about blowing the stack, so i tried this seq
01:22	i_s	hm, i can't think of a good way to do that technomancy
01:54	tmciver	technomancy: is there a method to add paths to the classpaths used by 'lein repl' that are outside the project directory?
02:09	emezeske	Woo, lein-cljsbuild 0.1.7 released: https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/blob/0.1.7/doc/RELEASE-NOTES.md
02:09	emezeske	Maybe, just maybe, I didn't break anything this time
02:15	wei_	I have a proxy with an onMessage handler, that listens for messages on a channel. how would I send a message, then sleep until I received the message? (this is for a load test btw)
02:38	katratxo	emezeske: i tried the simple sample example project, but the main.js is not present after starting the server
02:39	katratxo	emezeske: i followed the instructions in the README
02:39	emezeske	katratxo: Oh, it looks like those instructions are wrong. How'd that happen?
02:40	emezeske	katratxo: You just need to run 'lein cljsbuild once'
02:40	katratxo	emezeske: ok, testing
02:42	emezeske	katratxo: Thanks for catching that! I pushed a doc fix to master.
02:43	katratxo	emezeske: now i get the expected alert :)
02:43	katratxo	emezeske: thanks
02:44	emezeske	katratxo: Cool beans.
02:56	Iceland_jack	Is there any way of getting a list of Java methods?
02:57	Iceland_jack	so for (“methods” "HI") you might get charAt, concat, format, substring, etc.
02:58	xumingmingv	a have simillar question: is there a function to list all the methods of a namespace?
02:58	xumingmingv	e.g. (methods 'clojure.lang)
02:58	hiredman	namespaces don't have methods
02:58	hiredman	there is no namespace called clojure.lang
02:59	xumingmingv	oh, sorry, i mean the methods declared in a namespace
02:59	Iceland_jack	xumingmingv: maybe look at: (map ns-map (all-ns))
02:59	hiredman	methods are things classes have
02:59	xumingmingv	oh, sorry again, i mean functions lol
03:00	Iceland_jack	(all-ns) lists existing namespaces
03:00	Iceland_jack	,(doc ns-map)
03:00	clojurebot	"([ns]); Returns a map of all the mappings for the namespace."
03:06	xumingmingv	Iceland_jack thanks
03:07	Iceland_jack	No problem xumingmingv
03:09	Iceland_jack	I found the answer to my question if anyone was wondering the same
03:09	Iceland_jack	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5821286/how-can-i-get-the-methods-of-a-java-class-from-clojure
03:13	muhoo	Iceland_jack: this is how i usually do it: https://refheap.com/paste/2026
03:13	muhoo	actually, or this: https://refheap.com/paste/2027
03:14	Iceland_jack	ah
03:14	Iceland_jack	thanks muhoo
03:15	Iceland_jack	it would be nice to have that provided by (doc …), similar to Python's dir()
03:15	muhoo	that's exactly what i was going for :-)
03:15	muhoo	and spoiled by
03:15	Iceland_jack	heh
03:35	clizzin	anyone know what the equivalent of ruby's capistrano is for clojure? or just generally, what is the story for deploying clojure web applications?
03:45	amalloy	muhoo: it's rather simpler to write as (map :name (remove (comp :private :flags) (:members ...)))
03:45	emezeske	clizzin: There's "pallet", which I think can be used similarly
03:46	clizzin	emezeske: i've looked at pallet, but it looks more like a tool for provisioning nodes and installing dependencies. i can't find a clear examples for actually deploying a web app. do you know where i might find one?
03:49	emezeske	clizzin: It's hard to point at a specific example without knowing more about how you, specifically, want to deploy your app
03:49	emezeske	clizzin: I mean, you can deploy by just sticking the app on the server and doing a "lein run"
03:50	emezeske	clizzin: Or you might need to fire up some EC2 instances and configure databases, etc
03:50	clizzin	emezeske: sure. i come from a rails web background, so the way i usually do this is by running "cap deploy," which SSH's into the production server, git pulls down the latest revision from origin, installs dependencies, compiles assets, and then restarts the server
03:51	clizzin	emezeske: from what i know of clojure, it sounds like the equivalent would be to SSH into the production server, git pull the latest revision from origin, build an uberwar, copy the uberwar into place, and then restart the server.
03:52	clizzin	emezeske: or i could build the uberwar locally, rsync it into place on the production instance, and then restart the server
03:52	clizzin	does that clarify things a bit?
03:52	clizzin	i'm also open to hearing about better ways to deploy
03:52	ibdknox	deploying a webapp is just a matter of calling lein trampoline run with nginx as a reverse proxy :)
03:53	ibdknox	no war needed
03:53	emezeske	Yeah, ibdknox' way is definitely the simplest
03:53	emezeske	If you want to automate the setup of that, I still think pallet is the right thing
03:53	emezeske	Check this out: http://palletops.com/doc/how-tos/using-pallet-with-existing-servers/
03:54	emezeske	You could extend that example to run the commands you need to copy things and configure them, etc
03:56	clizzin	ibdknox: what is lein trampoline?
03:56	ibdknox	it tells lein to shutdown and then start your process
03:57	ibdknox	just saves you a little memory by cleaning up the extra JVM
03:57	ibdknox	not important per se
03:57	ibdknox	but might as well
03:59	ibdknox	clizzin: if you use Noir lein trampoline run prod is all you need
04:00	clizzin	ibdknox: what server is it actually running in that case? is jetty embedded or something?
04:00	ibdknox	yep
04:00	ibdknox	embedded jetty
04:00	ibdknox	anyways, gotta run.
04:00	clizzin	ibdknox: ahh cool
04:01	clizzin	ibdknox: cool, thanks for the tip
04:01	ibdknox	but fwiw, I run numerous websites that way
04:01	ibdknox	never had any issues
04:01	clizzin	emezeske: thanks as well
04:09	emezeske	clizzin: NP, good luck with that!
04:11	muhoo	amalloy: i do not think that kibit will be able to replace you anytime soon :-)
04:12	amalloy	the day the language itself does better static analysis than i do, i'ma switch languages
04:29	muhoo	sorry (filter #(not ...)) with (remove #(...))
04:35	amalloy	you can replace most of your #(not ...) with (complement ...) too
04:54	clgv	cemerick : ping
04:54	cemerick	wow, that was fast
04:55	cemerick	clgv: pong
04:55	clgv	cemerick: thunderbird is open here ;)
04:56	clgv	cemerick: the completion idea was meant like the behavior that you get when using rlwrap with clojure.
04:57	cemerick	I can't say I've ever used rlwrap
04:58	clgv	cemerick: it behaves similar to the current CTRL+UP-ARROW that goes back to the previous history entry except that it takes the content before the cursor and searches the previous hirstory entries for the last that starts with the same content
04:58	cemerick	In any case, I think I grok what you'd like to have happen, but: what should be done when paredit is being used? Just lop off the content to the right of the cursor for search purposes?
04:58	clgv	you mean paredit in REPL view?
04:59	cemerick	yeah
05:00	clgv	the amtch could be a regular expression "LEFT-PART.*RIGHT-PART" - I dont know if that makes much sense. otherwise I would restrict it to "unrestricted edit mode"
05:01	cemerick	heh, yeah, we could do that
05:02	amalloy	we're talking about C-r from readline?
05:02	amalloy	or M-p from emacs, i guess
05:03	clgv	amalloy: a feature request for CCW REPL view that allows searching repl history
05:03	amalloy	that's one reason i don't use paredit in my repl
05:03	amalloy	clgv: right, i can tell. i'm just confirming what the feature you want added is
05:03	cemerick	as you can all tell, not something I've ever thought to want :-)
05:05	clgv	cemerick: I am working with incanter on datasets that are loaded from files and its pretty handy to be able to search repl history for the command that loaded the datasets in the last sessions
05:06	cemerick	sure
05:08	clgv	cemerick: by the way, is the repl history limited? I don't see any option for that
05:10	cemerick	clgv: yeah, 1000 entries
05:11	clgv	cemerick: shall I make a ticket requesting an option for that?
05:17	cemerick	clgv: what, configurable history? Sure.
05:19	lpetit	cemerick, amalloy, clgv: paredit shouldn't be a problem if we just try to match what is on the left of the cursor. Seems simple and good enough for me, he ?
05:20	clgv	lpetit: +1. but you could also use the above reg exp trying to match both sides in paredit mode if that makes sense
05:21	amalloy	i don't see any point in matching the right side. with paredit mode on, anything that matches the left and the middle will also match the right
05:22	cemerick	clgv: and this is supposed to work in bash with Ctrl+PageUp?
05:22	clgv	cemerick: in bash it works when you uncomment the corresponding line in /etc/inputrc
05:23	cemerick	heh, ok
05:23	clgv	cemerick: it's one of my first changes to a fresh linux ;)
05:23	cemerick	I just `history \| grep xxx` at that point :-)
05:24	clgv	I often just type "ssh" + CTRL+PAGE-UP + ENTER ;)
05:24	cemerick	The fewer customizations I make to my env, the less irritated I am when things aren't just right. :-)
05:24	lpetit	If often find myself, while in a middle of typing, wanting to just drop it and start fresh from the previous history entry.Wouldn't this addition force me to first delete all the contents of the input area ?
05:25	amalloy	clgv: it works in bash out of the box
05:25	amalloy	bound to C-r, not C-pgup
05:26	cemerick	lpetit: shouldn't; as it is, you can go back in history, and then go forward until you're back at your original input
05:26	clgv	amalloy: didnt know about C-r - bu it seems different
05:26	amalloy	C-r ssh RET
05:26	lpetit	cemerick: i was talking "after" having added what clgv suggests
05:27	amalloy	or tbh if you're just using it for something as primitive as "repeat previous ssh command", you should just do !ssh RET
05:27	cemerick	amalloy: C-r gives me an odd (reverse-i-search) prompt.
05:28	clgv	amalloy: wow, something new again. I guess I am a bash noob ;)
05:28	amalloy	indeed, cemerick
05:28	cemerick	!foo is in every shell, I think ;-)
05:28	amalloy	C-r <thing to search for> RET [...further editing if you want...] RET
05:28	amalloy	you can hit C-r again instead of RET to continue searching back
05:29	cemerick	C-r "git pu" RET ===> "git: 'pu' is not a git command"
05:30	amalloy	i guess it's...possible bash on osx has a broken version of C-r? but i don't think it does. that interaction works fine for me
05:30	amalloy	assuming you're not actually typing those quotes
05:31	amalloy	clgv: imo any time i have to use an arrow key or something in the PGDN area i realize i'm misusing bash :P
05:31	cemerick	amalloy: all the better to grief you with :-D
05:31	amalloy	hm?
05:31	cemerick	But, no. Not sure why it's borked here.
05:32	amalloy	clgv: a related bash tip: !?push -- repeat most recent command that included push
05:33	clgv	amalloy: the backsearch via PAGE-UP (it is PAGE-UP only - no CTRL) is similar to ARROW-UP has no overhead like C-r
05:33	amalloy	overhead?
05:33	clgv	amalloy: awesome
05:34	amalloy	the overhead for PGUP is taking your hands off home row, just like for ARROW-UP. that's why i prefer C-r and C-p, respectively
05:34	clgv	amalloy: the command line ui "(reverse-i-search)`': ..."
05:35	amalloy	btw cemerick: just SSH'd to an osx machine, it still works for me. i wonder what dark rituals you've performed to break it
05:36	cemerick	amalloy: you've probably ssh'd to that OS X machine before, found it broken, and tweaked it out without remembering. :-P
05:36	amalloy	haha, no. it's just a coworker's machine that i happen to have an account on
05:37	amalloy	ANYWAY, i guess all this bash discussion isn't that important now that everyone knows what clgv wants in ccw, so i can shut up about it
05:37	amalloy	and go to bed. night folks
05:37	cemerick	My .profile has one alias and three env vars in it. I wouldn't know how to break bash. ;-)
05:38	clgv	amalloy: the additional information about ! and !? is appreciated :)
05:39	andyfingerhut	My .profile has lines that I can recall putting in there in 1990 :-)
05:43	wei_	functionally what's the difference between these two functions? one uses "let" and the other "def" https://gist.github.com/2365902
05:44	Iceland_jack	don't use def
05:46	andyfingerhut	wei_: Is the first one missing ( after doall?
05:46	andyfingerhut	Not sure if that is typo, or part of the problem.
05:48	wei_	typo, thanks. just amended it.
05:54	andyfingerhut	I'm not sure why there would be a difference in behavior between those two, but use of def inside a function like that is at least bad style, and often not what you want.
05:54	andyfingerhut	It is defining symbols globally, not locally. let keeps the symbol scope local to the body of the let.
05:56	andyfingerhut	My only guess at why the behavior might be different is if somehow one of those is postponing evaluation of some API call due to lazy evaluation, and the other is not.
05:56	andyfingerhut	Have you Googled for the exception message?
06:02	sandbags	hi. been a while since i poked around with Lisp so I just bought the 2nd ed. Prag's programming clojure
06:03	sandbags	last time i bought Paul Graham's Lisp book and noodled my way through most of that
06:03	sandbags	always liked it but was put off by the environments and cruft, looking forward to trying clojure
06:04	sandbags	i'm coming from mainly Ruby in the past 6 years or so, and most recently Obj-C
06:05	ngw	sandbags: you'll have lots of fun then
06:06	sandbags	i'm hoping the book is good, i nearly went for the O'Reilly one but i missed the 50% off sale
06:06	sandbags	i buy a lot of prag books
06:06	sandbags	the Erlang one was pretty good
06:07	sandbags	i really enjoyed Erlang but couldn't see myself ending up using it
06:07	sandbags	but it definitely gave me a taste for functional stuff
06:08	andyfingerhut	I'm curious what you were put off by that you call environments and cruft? I'm not saying there isn't anything to be put off by -- just curious what you disliked.
06:09	sandbags	andyfingerhut: it was a few years ago but all the decent (i.e. i could imagine i'd build end-user software) environments seemed really expensive
06:09	sandbags	Lispworks, for example, is way more than i could justify at this point
06:09	sandbags	so i was cobbling stuff together with emacs & slime and I hate emacs
06:10	ngw	I personally prefer the O'Reilly one
06:10	andyfingerhut	Commercial Common Lisp dev environments definitely aren't cheap, at least once you get past the free trial versions, e.g. you want to ship something commercial based on it.
06:10	sandbags	and by cruft i'm largely referring, i think (as I say it was a while ago), to the syntax cruft in the language
06:10	sandbags	looks like Clojure goes some way to addressing that
06:11	sandbags	i'm not really making a cogent argument, just trying to dredge up what i remember :)
06:11	sandbags	ngw: oh well :)
06:11	andyfingerhut	You'll definitely find a lot of Emacs users among Clojure programmers, but there are other editors fairly commonly used.
06:11	sandbags	i just can't get on with Emacs.... Vim i clicked with in 2 minutes
06:11	sandbags	i've tried emacs 3 times already but... it just won't go :)
06:12	andyfingerhut	I'm weird enough to use VI key bindings inside of Emacs :-)
06:12	sandbags	heh
06:12	ngw	sandbags: http://writequit.org/blog/?p=386 this was very helpful to me
06:12	sandbags	oh, nice, thanks
06:18	rodnaph	sandbags: this looks better, but i've never gotten it to work: https://github.com/vim-scripts/slimv.vim
06:18	andyfingerhut	sandbags: I'd recommend reading the book first, but if you get into hacking and trying to figure out and remind yourself what functions there are and what they do, you might find the cheatsheet useful: http://jafingerhut.github.com/cheatsheet-clj-1.3/clojure-1.3-cheatsheets.html
06:19	sandbags	ta
06:19	andyfingerhut	Several flavors there -- my personal favorite is the one you get from clicking the upper leftmost link.
06:19	sandbags	i tend to get 2/3rd of the way through a book then go off-road :)
06:19	andyfingerhut	That one will probably be available at clojure.org/cheatsheet some day
06:20	sandbags	cool, thanks
06:20	sandbags	i guess the only thing that makes me sad about Clojure is that (I guess) I'm not going to be writing Cocoa apps with it
06:20	sandbags	but, realistically, i think that about every language that is not Obj-C :)
06:21	rodnaph	i'm sure someone will write a clojure -> obj-c compiler pretty soon.
06:22	Iceland_jack	lol, don't hold your breath
06:24	sandbags	i think a clojure->objc compiler would be a pretty horrible solution
06:25	clgv	sandbags: I think rodnaph meant a Clojure implementation in obj-c similar to the one for .Net
06:27	sandbags	i'd love to see it happen but think that would be quite a challenge
06:27	rodnaph	yup. haven't thought about it too much, but i don't see any reasons obj-c couldn't be a clojure host.
06:28	clgv	does obj-c have a vm underneath it?
06:28	sandbags	no
06:28	sandbags	i was goign to say
06:28	sandbags	i may be missing something, but the challenge of porting Clojure to .Net
06:28	sandbags	would not be the same thing at all, you'd have to invent your own VM on top of the Objective-C runtime
06:28	sandbags	it's doable, this is essentially what MacRuby does
06:28	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
06:29	sandbags	using LLVM
06:29	clgv	yeah, no vm makes it hard, I guess
06:29	sandbags	harder still since OSX is deprecating libauto
06:29	sandbags	so no free GC
06:29	sandbags	although the code, IIRC, is open so I guess it could be maintained and used
06:30	sandbags	the MacRuby guy seems to have some plan to port ruby to use ARC type semantics
06:30	sandbags	(ARC is compile-time automatic retain/release if you're not familiar with it)
06:32	sandbags	but if anyone wanted to scale that mountain, it'd make me happy :)
06:34	andyfingerhut	Nathan Sorenson has developed a Clojure->Scheme compiler, which can then with Gambit be compiled to C. He said he confirmed that Clojure's core library runs on the iPad simulator. https://mail.google.com/mail/?shva=1#label/clojure/136130a4b12bc21d
06:35	andyfingerhut	Not sure if I used a good link there. Intended to be to the email thread on the clojure Google group.
06:35	maio	doesn't work
06:36	wei_	andyfingerhut: thanks for your help on https://gist.github.com/2365902. I found the error
06:37	wei_	it was just a typo :)
06:38	andyfingerhut	Just Google search on: clojure scheme gambit
06:38	andyfingerhut	Top 5 links all look relevant.
06:40	andyfingerhut	That phrase tickles my funny bone: "yak shaving"
06:41	andyfingerhut	Explanation: In Nathan's email announcement, he refers to a lot of yak shaving that still needs to be done to make his work more useful.
06:57	hoeck	http://www.infoq.com/interviews/hickey-clojure-reader
07:14	sandbags	hoeck: interesting, i didn't follow 98% of it but interesting none the less
07:16	hoeck	sandbags: haven't seen it in action (the extensible reader), but I imagine you can do funny stuff with it in IDEs
07:48	ngw	does someone have any idea what this is about? https://gist.github.com/0cc62ad7996b9c5177e1
07:49	Raynes	It's about 4 lines long and a real pain in the ass.
07:49	Raynes	ngw: This is Noir validation stuff?
07:49	ngw	Raynes: yep
07:50	ngw	I honestly can't understand the error
07:50	ngw	I guess something that should be bound is unbound
07:50	ngw	go figure what, seems basic to me...
07:51	samaaron	ngw: it's hard to know without knowing what vali is all about
07:51	Raynes	ngw: This stateful stuff works because, inside of request, noir binds and keeps track of an atom/ref of the data it needs to keep track of for the duration of the request.
07:51	Raynes	samaaron: I know what it is. Go doctor or something.
07:51	Raynes	:p
07:51	samaaron	Raynes: bully for you
07:51	ngw	oh, I see
07:51	Raynes	ngw: The problem here is that you're calling valid? outside of a request, so noir hasn't bound the var. When the vali/* stuff tries to access it, it isn't bound.
07:52	ngw	ok, now it's clear Raynes, thanks
07:52	ngw	definitely not how I would validate stuff...
07:52	samaaron	ngw: does the documentation make it clear that you need to call valid? within a request?
07:52	Raynes	ngw: This makes testing a little more difficult. If you really need to run this in the repl, you can likely use binding to mock the var up. You'll have to see which var it is (it'll be named with asterisks).
07:53	ngw	well, I was looking inside the blog example samaaron, and validation is inside the model
07:54	ngw	I didn't think that the request was available in there too
07:55	Raynes	This sort of function has to be called from inside a defpage or from something that it calls.
07:55	samaaron	Raynes: if you're so awesome at fixing issues - perhaps you can figure out why REPL-y doesn't like Overtone atm
07:55	clgv	ngw: there is noir.util.test/with-noir that sets all bindings
07:55	Raynes	For example, if you have a defpage that calls function foo and it calls bar and it calls valid?, the var will be bound. It just has to originat from defpage.
07:55	Raynes	samaaron: REPLy is a big dark box of evil and fire. Only trptcolin can put it out.
07:56	samaaron	nice to hear your vote of confidence
07:56	Raynes	I've been pretty ticked off at it too lately.
07:56	Raynes	But my problem isn't REPLy itself.
07:56	ngw	yes, I got it Raynes
07:56	Raynes	It's jline, which is even more evil.
07:57	samaaron	oh ok
07:57	ngw	but check from line 88 on: https://github.com/ibdknox/Noir-blog/blob/master/src/noir_blog/models/post.clj
07:57	samaaron	so would you have any idea why REPL-y might interfere with Overtone's boot process?
07:57	samaaron	Could it be blocking the main thread or something?
07:57	ngw	it seems validation is at the data level: at least this is my interpretation of what a model is
07:57	Raynes	I've never really looked at how REPLy works. Or Overtone for that matter.
07:58	samaaron	Raynes: but you seem to know everything... ;-)
07:58	Raynes	I know your dress size.
07:58	samaaron	crazy scenes
07:58	Raynes	ngw: Where would you put validation?
07:59	ngw	at the data level :)
07:59	ngw	meaning that the request is not needed
08:00	ngw	but I'm not an expert by any means, very noob with clojure as you can see
08:00	Raynes	Well, you can certainly do that if you want, just not with noir.validation.
08:00	clgv	ngw: have you tried calling your valid? with 'noir.util.test/with-noir yet?
08:00	Raynes	I expect that noir.validation does things the way it does at least partially to isolate state.
08:07	groovemonkey	is there a reference that explains the different REPL errors?
08:09	groovemonkey	I'm getting an 'IllegalStateException Attempting to call unbound fn' error. Not sure where to look for an explanation
08:17	mccraig	cemerick: just getting started with friend… the authenticate function takes the ring-handler as the second arg, whereas most (all?) handlers take the ring-handler as the first arg… is there a reason for this ?
08:18	clgv	groovemonkey: what did you do?
08:20	cemerick	mccraig: That was mostly to make it usable with partial, though I think that might have been not worth it at this point.
08:26	mccraig	cemerick: ah, i see. i've had similar problems too. perhaps there should instead be a variant of partial which can fix args at the front of the list ?
08:27	cemerick	mccraig: heh, well, that's #(afn % known-arg) :-)
08:35	gfredericks	,(-> 8 (/ 0) (try (catch Throwable t "threading is fun")))
08:35	clojurebot	gfredericks: Huh?
08:36	gfredericks	&(-> 8 (/ 0) (try (catch Throwable t "threading is fun")))
08:36	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! catch is bad!
08:36	gfredericks	fine
08:41	mccraig	cemerick: i meant fix args at the end of the list.. more like : (defn rpartial [f & fixed] (fn [& args] (apply f (concat args fixed))))
08:41	cemerick	mccraig: oh; well, bummer about something like that is that you can't stack rpartials.
08:46	mccraig	cemerick: what does 'stack' mean in that context ?
08:48	cemerick	mccraig: nm, I misread your defn
09:25	Raynes	cemerick: You're pink.
09:26	cemerick	Huh, ok.
09:26	Raynes	cemerick: I felt it important to note the color of your nickname in my IRC client.
09:27	fdaoud	cemerick: and you think I'm insane?
09:28	progo	Raynes, so are you :p
09:28	cemerick	fdaoud: I'll bet Raynes will only write one book. ;-)
09:28	fdaoud	cemerick: :-D
09:29	TEttinger	fdaoud is pink in my client.
09:29	fdaoud	TEttinger: there is no pink in my client, because, you know, you can customize those colors.
09:30	Raynes	To adjust the pink would be to reject the pink. This is not the way of the Clojurian.
09:30	TEttinger	fdaoud, I have a really wide variety of colors in mine (Floe on windows)
09:33	Raynes	cemerick: http://code.google.com/p/clementine-player/issues/detail?id=219
09:34	cemerick	Raynes: I couldn't quite remember where the last pink reference came from, but I knew it was lingering back there somewhere.
09:35	fdaoud	Every time I think I have a good ballpark figure for the number of insane people on the intrawebz, that number goes up by another order.
09:37	Raynes	fdaoud: Did you see the Clojure pull request where the guy renamed it to Lava?
09:37	fdaoud	Of course, I'm not judging, since I'm part of that number. Like being stuck in traffic at a non-rush-hour part of the day and wondering "what are all these people doing here? Uh, then again, what am I doing here?"
09:38	Raynes	You need better problems.
09:38	fdaoud	Raynes: yeah I saw that! heh
09:39	fdaoud	me? better problems?
09:40	fdaoud	I have two toddler-aged daughters who have dedicated every second of their existence to driving me crazy enough that I want to go jump off the roof. I don't need better problems.
09:40	Raynes	Your problems are boring. Traffic.
09:41	Raynes	Now that's a decent problem.
10:00	dgrnbrg	Where can I see an example usage of the extensible reader in 1.4?
10:02	trptcolin	is this behavior surprising to others, or just me? https://refheap.com/paste/2034
10:04	trptcolin	specifically, the fact that an agent dispatch within a different agent's action seems to be delayed until the calling agent's action completes
10:11	sattvik	trptcolin: Interesting.
10:11	antares_	trptcolin: I use agents very rarely but it makes sense to me. I think agents interact with STM the same way?
10:12	antares_	trptcolin: it is basically to avoid unexpected race conditions, I think
10:12	trptcolin	antares_: for a single agent dispatching to itself, totally makes sense
10:19	cemerick	trptcolin: all sends are held within an agent action until it completes; as antares_ said, same semantics as sends within a transaction.
10:20	trptcolin	yeah. kind of wondering why, though. agent sends don't retry, right? holding off on sends to the same agent makes sense, so only 1 action runs per agent at a time, cool.
10:20	trptcolin	also couldn't find any docs on it
10:22	cemerick	an agent's queue can stack up plenty of sends. i.e. you can send multiple actions to an agent within the same transaction or other agent action.
10:23	trptcolin	the problem i'm trying to solve (tm) is: https://github.com/overtone/overtone/issues/85
10:24	cemerick	The rationale is to simplify the semantics of the reference through time. All of the effects of an agent action (changing the agent's value and all of its sends) occur at the same point in time.
10:27	cemerick	trptcolin: so each native dep is loaded via an agent send?
10:27	trptcolin	right
10:27	cemerick	why?
10:27	clojurebot	why is the ram gone is <reply>I blame UTF-16. http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/but-why-is-the-ram-gone
10:29	trptcolin	well, i mean, it's so the "main" thread can Thread/sleep until they're all done
10:30	trptcolin	seems like a reasonable thing to do. maybe eventing would be better, but it still seems like it ought to work.
10:30	trptcolin	(of course given what i now know i understand why it doesn't)
10:32	cemerick	so, various parts of overtone register callbacks for when the various bits come online, but none of those end up actually being sent because the thing that triggers the loading of all of the deps is later on in the (use 'overtone.live) call?
10:32	cemerick	(that's probably wrong, but mostly rhetorical anyway)
10:33	cemerick	trptcolin: so does overtone never work, or sometimes work?
10:33	trptcolin	never w/ nrepl, as far as i can tell
10:34	trptcolin	always w/ reply --standalone
10:34	cemerick	trptcolin: that's true for technomancy's report as well?
10:35	trptcolin	the native deps/ java 7 thing (#86)? not sure on that one.
10:36	cemerick	no, his comment on #85
10:38	trptcolin	as far as i've heard so far, the timeout always happens this way w/ lein2 repl (after we got the Long/MAX_VALUE timeout in the repl task)
10:38	alexyakushev	Is there a way to connect to an external nREPL using Counterclockwise? I'm feeling very stupid right now:)
10:38	cemerick	alexyakushev: Window -> Connect to REPL
10:39	cemerick	You need 0.7.0, I think.
10:41	trptcolin	cemerick: i'll do some more thinking/looking into this after work today, need to get back
10:42	cemerick	trptcolin: Sure. If it really comes down to it, we can stop using agents for sessions. :-(
10:43	alexyakushev	Chas Emerick: Thanks a lot, the old version of CCW was the issue
11:10	Licenser	(filter #(= "dhcp") ("172.16.8.5" "172.16.1.1"))
11:11	Licenser	,(filter #(= "dhcp") ("172.16.8.5" "172.16.1.1"))
11:11	Licenser	&(filter #(= "dhcp") ("172.16.8.5" "172.16.1.1"))
11:11	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
11:11	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class clojure.lang.RT>
11:12	hroarke	Licenser: Your list of IPs should either be quoted '() or a vector [].
11:13	Licenser	hroarke you're right :) I was just pasting the prn'ed output
11:13	Licenser	but I found my bug it's a missing %
11:14	samaaron	Raynes: howdy pardner
11:15	Raynes	samaaron: Hi there Dr. Aaron.
11:15	samaaron	Raynes: so this refheap thing...
11:15	samaaron	I think I want to use it..
11:16	samaaron	I'm looking at the elisp thing you wrote - which has an ominous readme
11:16	Raynes	Hahaha
11:16	samaaron	is it in a workable state?
11:16	Raynes	Should be fine for use.
11:16	samaaron	I must admit, my elisp-reading skills need a lot of work
11:16	Raynes	muhoo uses it, IIRC.
11:17	samaaron	so what's the defcustom thing do?
11:17	Licenser	Raynes you've a emacs plugin for refheap?
11:17	Raynes	The original issue was a problem with connection closing on the server, but that has long since been fixed.
11:17	samaaron	how do i plug in my usename/token?
11:17	Raynes	samaaron: Allows you to customize the variable via Emac's pretty customization UI.
11:18	Raynes	Emacs's? Whatever.
11:18	Raynes	samaaron: Should be... M-x customize-group RET refheap? Something like that.
11:19	samaaron	Raynes: is there anyway to do that in my elisp?
11:19	samaaron	I never use the pretty customisation thingy
11:19	Licenser	Raynes can you share a link to your emacs thing? ^^
11:20	samaaron	Licenser: https://github.com/Raynes/refheap.el/blob/master/refheap.el
11:20	Licenser	thanks :)
11:20	samaaron	np
11:20	Raynes	Well, doing that will produce elisp. That said, you should be able to do (custom-set-variables '(refheap-token "") '(refheap-user ""))
11:21	samaaron	oh ok - and fill in the empty strings with my golden details?
11:21	Raynes	Yessir
11:21	Raynes	That emacs thing is on marmalade too, so accessible via ELPA. I think it's up-to-date enough.
11:21	Raynes	I haven't used this in quite a while since I switched to Vim.
11:21	samaaron	oh, can some friendly people upvote this link: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3832499
11:22	Raynes	DONE
11:22	samaaron	i think overtone can help increase awareness of Clojure in general
11:23	Raynes	Who doesn't like music, right?
11:24	Licenser	Raynes sweet :D
11:24	samaaron	Licenser: did you get the refheap thing working?
11:25	Licenser	yea just put it in my .emacs.d folder and laoded it in the .emacs
11:26	samaaron	i'm struggling to log into refheap
11:26	Raynes	custom-set-variables not working?
11:27	Licenser	Raynes how can I bribe you to support dtrace scripts?
11:27	samaaron	no, i'm having issue logging in with a browser atm
11:27	Licenser	samaaron oh I just did it w/o the login part
11:28	Raynes	samaaron: What's going wrong?
11:28	Raynes	Licenser: First step is to write a lexer for pygments.
11:28	Licenser	oi
11:28	Raynes	Second step is to send me a pull request adding it to the language list.
11:28	Raynes	:P
11:29	samaaron	Raynes: I think I must have registered a while back - but have no idea what password I used
11:29	samaaron	and their password reset thing is broken
11:29	Raynes	Well that sucks.
11:30	samaaron	indeed
11:30	TimMc	poker face
11:30	samaaron	I can't even create a new account
11:30	Raynes	samaaron: It works for me.
11:30	Raynes	What browser is this?
11:30	samaaron	safari
11:31	Raynes	I'm using Chrome.
11:31	Raynes	Safari is for people who write musical code.
11:31	samaaron	i get the same issue with Chrome
11:31	Raynes	Your computer is broken.
11:31	llasram	Refheap's login has also never worked for me, but I consider that my own fault for using Conkeror
11:31	samaaron	clearly
11:32	samaaron	i'm actually on https://browserid.org/signup
11:32	TimMc	Raynes: I gave up on using BrowserID. It doesn't work with the Firefox password manager (despite being made by Mozilla).
11:32	Raynes	llasram: Yeah, technomancy pointed that out.
11:32	Licenser	Raynes acutaylly you support D already
11:32	TimMc	It's not worth it to look it up in my password manager every time.
11:32	llasram	Licenser: Are you sure that isn't Digital Mars D?
11:32	Raynes	It is.
11:33	Licenser	no I'm not but it does not seem to be that off :P I don't get errors in example code
11:33	Raynes	TimMc: Shame.
11:33	samaaron	Raynes: try registering with a fake email - see if you get past the "Verify Email" button...
11:33	Raynes	TimMc: I don't use password managers for that exact reason. I just use 'password' for all my passwords and I get by fine.
11:34	samaaron	Raynes: that's WEEEEEEAK. I use P455w0rd
11:35	Raynes	samaaron: Yup.
11:36	Raynes	If someone wanted to send me a patch to add github authentication, I'd accept said patch.
11:38	fdaoud	samaaron: love the comments in that ycombinator link.
11:38	samaaron	fdaoud: haha.
11:38	samaaron	why can't people comment on the CONTENT?
11:39	Raynes	samaaron: "better video, 4 minutes, no crappy foreplay, just some guy live-coding with overtone"
11:39	Raynes	Seems like that's about the content.
11:40	fdaoud	samaaron: same reason there's always this one guy who reviews an amazon book saying that the book arrived fast and in good condition.
11:40	samaaron	haha
11:40	samaaron	crappy foreplay???? wft?
11:40	samaaron	twf?
11:40	samaaron	ftw?
11:40	samaaron	WTF?
11:41	Bronsa	lol
11:41	fdaoud	no such thing.
11:41	samaaron	haha
11:44	Raynes	samaaron: That was an excellent talk. I think I stayed awake during it, even.
11:53	samaaron	Raynes: what did you think of the crappy foreplay?
11:54	hhutch	Raynes: darn but that refheap.el is handy
11:55	gfredericks	look I don't know what is being discussed here but now I have this image in my head of Raynes falling asleep during foreplay and I need someone to blame for it.
11:56	samaaron	gfredericks: hahaha
11:56	Bronsa	lol
12:17	Bronsa	is there a better way to achieve this than (take-while not-empty (iterate rest (range 10))) ?
12:18	S11001001	! (doc tails)
12:19	S11001001	&(doc tails)
12:19	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: tails in this context
12:19	S11001001	uh, maybe
12:19	goodieboy	could someone tell me what i'm doing wrong with this? I'm expecting this to match: (re-find #"(?m)a.*b" "a\nasdfasdf\n\nb")
12:19	goodieboy	,(re-find #"(?m)a.*b" "a\nasdfasdf\n\nb")
12:19	clojurebot	nil
12:19	S11001001	goodieboy: you're looking for s, not m
12:19	goodieboy	,(re-find #"(?s)a.*b" "a\nasdfasdf\n\nb")
12:19	S11001001	m changes how ^ and $ work
12:19	clojurebot	"a\nasdfasdf\n\nb"
12:20	goodieboy	S11001001: Woohoo! Thanks :)
12:23	amalloy	Bronsa: well, seq rather than not-empty, at least
12:23	S11001001	goodieboy: interesting aside: in posix extended regexp, s is called p, for "posixline". I'm not sure s is less ambiguous
12:24	goodieboy	S11001001: interesting, good to know
12:27	Bronsa	right amalloy
12:37	jondot1	hi all. what should i do if i need a to use a project that is not on clojars yet (it has an older version), but i can clone and build from github?
12:38	jondot1	its not my project so i can't push a new build
12:38	technomancy	samaaron: feel free to yoink those sketches as quil samples btw
12:38	technomancy	samaaron: were you able to run the jar with "java -jar [...]"L
12:39	technomancy	it would be cool if there were some kind of visual chooser you could include in a collection of sketches like this so people can just double-click on the uberjars and have them work
12:41	samaaron	technomancy: ah, that works fine
12:41	samaaron	I just tried to double click it
12:41	samaaron	so instead I just unzipped the jar and ran the sketches manually
12:41	samaaron	they're lovely :-)
12:41	technomancy	thanks =)
12:42	samaaron	btw, did you know about set-state! and state
12:42	juhu_chapa	hi clojurians, what is the clojure way to use a properties file? maybe defining a global var a then loading and binding the properties or just passing the properties to the method?
12:42	technomancy	most of them are from 2½ years ago
12:42	samaaron	:-)
12:42	technomancy	samaaron: I was just thinking something nicer could be done wrt state
12:42	samaaron	technomancy: I'm all up for ideas
12:42	technomancy	like if the update function just took an argument like a reducer function
12:42	samaaron	I just thought that adding per-sketch state was very useful
12:43	technomancy	or it seems like having the frame-count as a function argument would be useful too
12:43	technomancy	man, it sucks that fn literals don't have :arglists metadata, or you could do this automagically without breaking backwards-compat
12:44	samaaron	so whatever was returned by #'draw was passed to it as an arg?
12:44	technomancy	yeah
12:44	samaaron	yeah, i thought about that - I just thought it was adding a lot of boiler plate
12:44	samaaron	I wish we could support both
12:44	technomancy	maybe you could have an :update function as an alternative to draw that took state as an argument
12:44	amalloy	jondot1: you have two reasonable options
12:44	samaaron	hmm, interesting
12:45	technomancy	state and possibly frame-count
12:45	samaaron	yeah, precisely
12:45	samaaron	frame-count is super useful
12:45	technomancy	would help make sketches more functional
12:45	achin	weavejester: Have you had a chance to take a look at my web.xml PR?
12:45	amalloy	you can tell lein to have your project depend on the git repo. i don't know the details of this, and i think technomancy frowns on it, so it's sorta an option you should try to avoid
12:45	samaaron	i also would prefer it if things like the x and y coords were passed to mouse handlers
12:46	technomancy	oh yeah, absolutely
12:46	technomancy	btw; is there an equivalent to defonce for defsketch?
12:46	samaaron	but for version 1.0 i just wanted things to be as similar to processing as possible
12:46	technomancy	so C-c C-k doesn't open up a new window?
12:46	weavejester	achin: Didn't I already merge that? Hang on...
12:46	samaaron	technomancy: no, there's not - but that's an excellent idea
12:46	amalloy	or you can build it from git and release it to clojars yourself under a different groupid. eg, instead of overtone/overtone (if samaaron were so rude as to not update his version on clojars) you could use org.clojars.jondot/overtone
12:47	achin	weavejester: Thanks.
12:47	amalloy	then lein can pull it down like any other dependency
12:47	jondot1	amalloy: i see. isn't the second option considered rude?
12:47	amalloy	meh. it wouldn't hurt you to ask them to update their version first
12:47	amalloy	but i don't think it's terribly rude to push your own version, is it? anyone?
12:47	samaaron	amalloy: what are you suggesting?
12:48	weavejester	achin: Okay, it's merged. Sorry about that, I thought I had already done it.
12:48	technomancy	jondot1: have you tried checkout dependencies?
12:48	samaaron	I'm not the one that ate a pint of bacon...
12:48	amalloy	samaaron: i just dragged you in as an example
12:48	jondot1	amalloy: i see. is it possible that i built the jar and check it into source control?
12:48	amalloy	i shared! i didn't eat it all
12:48	Raynes	Rude...?
12:48	Raynes	Why would it be rude?
12:48	amalloy	jondot1: i will strangle you
12:48	amalloy	if you do that
12:48	Raynes	jondot1: I'll cut you.
12:48	jondot1	yep.
12:48	amalloy	(i totally would have eaten it all)
12:48	achin	weavejester: No worries. Thanks. Do you think you're going to cut a 0.6.4 anytime soon?
12:48	samaaron	cor, there's some brutality in here
12:49	samaaron	jondot1: I woudl neither strangle nor cut you. I'd just politely suggest that there was a better option
12:49	Raynes	The only resolution for people who check jars into source control is seppuku.
12:50	weavejester	achin: I can. Have you used the web.xml behavior from a fork or something? i.e. is it tested?
12:50	amalloy	for example, jondot1, there are at least five different groupids for org.clojure/data.xml on clojars, because it took so long for clojure/core to release a jar to maven
12:50	samaaron	amalloy: you'd have no competition from me. I never understood why people eat other animals flesh. In pint glasses or not.
12:50	TimMc	But but but... the Twelce Factor app tells me to vendor things in!
12:50	TimMc	*Twelve
12:50	Raynes	Because they rewrote it 6 times and couldn't figure out how to make it build on 80 different JVM/OS combinations.
12:50	jondot1	ok.. and now for another option. im thinking about running a pure java image analysis or shelling out to image magick. imagemagick is around 3 times faster. is there a point to keep the pure java code?
12:51	achin	weavejester: Yeah, I've been using the version that I had before I ripped out server-uberwar and changed :webxml->:web-xml in production for a few months.
12:51	Raynes	jondot1: I'd just shell out.
12:51	samaaron	Raynes: ah man, again, that's not such a nice thing to say. You should celebrate life - not describe hideous suicidal methods
12:51	weavejester	achin: Okay, I'll push out 0.6.4 in a few minutes then
12:51	Raynes	samaaron: Apparently this was at one time acceptable behavior.
12:52	achin	weavejester: Great. Thank you!
12:52	samaaron	Raynes: many awful things were once acceptable. i.e. slavary
12:53	Raynes	You mean to tell me I'm supposed to give up my slave!?!?
12:53	amalloy	i have a master/slave relationship with my databases. what we do behind closed doors is not samaaron's business
12:53	samaaron	Free him/her immediately!
12:53	technomancy	why you gotta be hatin' on a man's hobbies? http://wondermark.com/152/
12:53	samaaron	amalloy: don't bring up your databases again - we've been through that before
12:54	Raynes	Hahaha
12:54	weavejester	achin: Done
12:54	samaaron	technomancy: haha
12:54	RickInGA	it is difficult coming in the middle of a conversation... samarron says somethings used to be acceptable, but aren't any more, and I wonder how he knows I am working in C# today
12:55	samaaron	RickInGA: :-)
12:56	samaaron	RickInGA: as long as you dont' start talking about strangling, cutting, killing or selling yourself to slavery, then I'm cool
12:56	achin	weavejester: Thanks. Pulling it now.
12:56	jondot1	is there any mapping between clojure 1.2.0 and 1.2.0 contrib to clojure 1.3.0 (and merged contrib functionality) ?
12:56	gfredericks	are you asking where contrib went?
12:56	achin	jondot1: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go is what I use.
12:56	weavejester	Sometime I've got to make lein-ring reload the checkouts folder as well.
12:57	jondot1	great, thanks
12:57	weavejester	Or add something to the options to customize it.
12:57	RickInGA	samaaron: on an unrleated subject, I am using your live config, but I don't have any of the features when I am editing a cljs file in emacs. did I break something?
12:58	samaaron	RickInGA: no, I just haven't added cljs support yet. For now you can force it into clojure mode with M-x clojure-mode
12:58	RickInGA	samaaron awesome, Thanks!
12:58	technomancy	cemerick: so did you follow https://github.com/overtone/overtone/issues/85? what does this mean for reply/nrepl?
13:00	fdaoud	juhu_chapa: did you get an answer to your question?
13:00	cemerick	technomancy: it probably means it needs to stop using agents for REPL sessions.
13:00	samaaron	cemerick: agreed
13:00	cemerick	which is ironic, since that's the path I took ~2 years ago. :-P
13:01	samaaron	I had composing agents issues about ~1.5 years ago
13:01	juhu_chapa	not yet, but i think the def var and binding later is the right choice
13:01	samaaron	it was super frustrating to debug
13:02	technomancy	cemerick: so that sounds like a fairly involved change
13:02	cemerick	technomancy: not particularly. Doesn't change semantics a whit.
13:02	cemerick	I mean, except for not causing the current PITA.
13:03	cemerick	hiredman: Yeah. Back to the nREPL 0.0.x-series approach.
13:05	gfredericks	(defroutes test-server (GET "/foo" [] "bar")) (test-server {:uri "/foo"}) => nil
13:05	gfredericks	^ what am I misunderstanding about compojure?
13:05	technomancy	cemerick: but probably not something that should block preview3 any more
13:05	weavejester	gfredericks: You haven't specified a :request-method
13:05	cemerick	technomancy: no
13:06	gfredericks	weavejester: haha quite; thanks!
13:06	weavejester	gfredericks: ring-mock is a good library for creating Ring requests, btw
13:06	gfredericks	weavejester: I'm just doing some sanity checks
13:07	technomancy	at least the overtone issue has a workaround with just requiring it twice
13:07	samaaron	technomancy: and I expect most overtone users aren't using lein repl anyway
13:08	cemerick	well, they'll be able to in short order
13:08	samaaron	indeed :-)
13:08	samaaron	having it work in lein is super important
13:09	technomancy	cemerick: will this require changes in reply or just nrepl?
13:09	cemerick	just nrepl
13:09	technomancy	cool; so it'll be easy for people to bump without upgrading lein once the fix is out
13:10	cemerick	though reply has a separate issue as well: https://github.com/trptcolin/reply/issues/49#issuecomment-5083824
13:10	cemerick	yeah, overtone + nREPL 0.2.0-betaX will do it
13:10	sattvik	About the overtone thing… It also seems to cause my VimClojure to hang, though it's not using any agents as far as I can tell.
13:11	cemerick	technomancy: I've come to enjoy this long prerelease thing quite a lot ;-)
13:12	technomancy	cemerick: it's great; I love it =)
13:12	samaaron	sattvik: did you write VimClojure?
13:12	samaaron	oh i misread it's for I'm
13:13	sattvik	samaaron: No, that's Meikel Brandmeyer.
13:13	samaaron	sattvik: could you send an email to the overtone mailing list? There's a bunch of people on there that use Vim that are probably better positioned to help you out
13:14	sattvik	samaaron: OK, I'll probably do that. It works fine with slimv and clojure-swank, but I am used to using VimClojure.
13:14	samaaron	so what's the current solution for cljs in emacs?
13:15	technomancy	there's a clojurescript-mode; don't know much about it
13:16	samaaron	i currently use clojure-mode for both
13:16	technomancy	I think it just has some inferior-lisp setup for a cljs repl
13:16	technomancy	oh, it uses script/repl; gross
13:16	samaaron	oh ok
13:17	samaaron	technomancy: are you referring to this: https://github.com/carllerche/.emacs.d/blob/master/extra-packages/clojure-mode/clojurescript-mode.el
13:17	cemerick	it can't really use anything more sophisticated because of how browser-repl works.
13:17	technomancy	samaaron: that looks like a copy; the canonical version lives in the clojure-mode repo
13:17	samaaron	oh ok
13:17	technomancy	probably needs to be updated to work with lein-cljsbuild
13:21	lynaghk	-clojurebot-: Thanks for the intro. ANN: cljs-chosen, a ClojureScript wrapper for everyone's favorite <select> library.
13:21	Bronsa	what's the reason of doing Util.ret1(something, something = null) ?
13:21	samaaron	lynaghk what's a <select> library?
13:21	samaaron	does it choose things for me?
13:21	Raynes	lynaghk: Cool. I use chosen in refheap. Speaking of that, go write refheap's js in clojurescript for me.
13:21	Bronsa	i see this done a lot of times in the clojure codebase
13:22	lynaghk	samaaron: it makes giant <select> tags not suck in the brower by adding things like in-line search field and clickable tags for multiselects
13:22	lynaghk	As for the cljs-wrapper, it handles everything for you using atoms, so you can listen for changes and update the options in the selector using cljs data structures instead of having to muck with html.
13:22	Raynes	samaaron: The language dropdown on refheap is chosen.
13:22	samaaron	what is my favourite select library?
13:23	samaaron	oh ok, so <select> is a cljs lib, and chosen adds useful helpers?
13:23	samaaron	or is <select> some js thing?
13:23	Raynes	samaaron: It's a html tag.
13:23	lynaghk	Raynes: refheap is pretty cool, but I don't have bandwidth for community-rewrites at the moment. I'm looking to finish up some big CLJS projects that can be open sourced and demo the possibilties for the platform.
13:23	Raynes	Have you ever done anything besides music?
13:24	lynaghk	samaaron: <select> is the html tag that makes drop down menus.
13:24	samaaron	Raynes: nope
13:24	Raynes	lynaghk: I would hope that you would realize I was joking.
13:24	technomancy	is that for hypertext? that markup thingy language?
13:24	lynaghk	Raynes: a bottle of whiskey in the mail can turn jokes like that INTO REALITY
13:24	samaaron	lynaghk oh, I knew that - you just described it as "for everyone's favourite <select> library"
13:25	true_droid	hi! I'm curious, is ClojureScript different in many fundamental ways from Clojure? For instance, afaik this trick isn't available in Clojure https://gist.github.com/2346460 . Is it just a design decision or a technical limitation?
13:25	samaaron	so i thought you meant an existing lib
13:25	lynaghk	samaaron: I don't appreciate you adding extra 'u's to my language. I saw what you did there, okay.
13:25	lynaghk	= P
13:25	samaaron	lynaghk your language? Ahem!
13:25	scriptor	brits...
13:26	samaaron	I'm English, I live in England and I speak English
13:26	lynaghk	samaaron: americans have been around the longest, everyone knows that.
13:26	scriptor	*Englandish, you mean
13:26	amalloy	true_droid: some of both
13:26	samaaron	lynaghk oh, yeah I forgot - since I spent so long today studying at a university OLDER THAN AMERICA!
13:26	technomancy	I've heard of Englandish before; isn't that what they speak on the BBC?
13:26	amalloy	it's technically impossible to do that without decreasing performance of the whole language by a factor of like five (made-up guess, but it's large). so a design decision was made not to allow it
13:27	scriptor	clojurescript can't have true tco either, right?
13:27	lynaghk	Raynes: how come you didn't write refheap using CLJS?
13:27	scriptor	without trampolining and such
13:27	mefesto	what is the proper way to round bigdec? i'm doing the following which must be the looong way :)
13:27	mefesto	,(with-precision 10 (-> (/ 1M 3) (.setScale 3 RoundingMode/HALF_UP)))
13:27	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: RoundingMode, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
13:27	mefesto	doh
13:27	mefesto	,(with-precision 10 (-> (/ 1M 3) (.setScale 3 java.math.RoundingMode/HALF_UP)))
13:27	clojurebot	0.333M
13:27	cduffy	scriptor: ...neither does Clojure on the JVM (without loop/recur), so that's not exactly a difference.
13:27	Raynes	lynaghk: Because 1) there isn't enough js for cljs to really help with anything 2) I've not yet developed the hatred towards js that everyone else has 3) I didn't want another compilation step.
13:28	scriptor	cduffy: right, hence "either" :)
13:28	cduffy	ahh.
13:28	amalloy	scriptor: i imagine some js implementations would have it
13:28	lynaghk	Raynes: give #2 some time, maybe add some more features to refheap...
13:28	Raynes	Oh, I'm sure.
13:28	Raynes	But #2 is directly related to #1.
13:28	Raynes	I don't need much js to add features to refheap.
13:28	Bronsa	true_droid: technical limitation
13:29	Raynes	At least, not the features I've planned to add.
13:29	samaaron	Raynes: like github authoriSation?
13:29	amalloy	you should add a bear that dances around the page when you hit Paste
13:29	Raynes	samaaron: Someone else can do that. :p
13:29	Raynes	browserid isn't broken for me.
13:30	Raynes	amalloy: Didn't we plan to add a secret button that would play video game music?
13:30	amalloy	i do recall that
13:30	true_droid	amalloy: thanks
13:48	technomancy	and it's out. ladies and gentlemen, leiningen 2.0.0-preview3: https://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/91079a531ee1f1c8
13:53	ibdknox	it's a real-time web week lol
14:01	sattvik	dnolen: Any ideas on how to coordinate selecting proposals for GSoC?
14:03	samaaron	Raynes: awesome, I now have refheap working from my emacs with authentication. Thanks so much :-)
14:13	Raynes	samaaron: I'm just happy it works. I don't know elisp. Most of that was copied from various libraries.
14:26	llasram	technomancy: And there was much (belated) rejoicing!
14:26	samaaron	Raynes: well, it was a good job :-)
14:26	Raynes	<3
14:32	dnolen	sattvik: yes details forthcoming in the next couple of days.
14:32	Raynes	Maaaaaaaan, why is brehaut never here when I need to spew now playing information to him? :(
14:34	sattvik	dnolen: Sounds good. I am really looking forward to seeing what GSoC will produce for Clojure.
14:39	sandbags	user=> (clojure.repl/source applyTo) -> "Source not found"
14:39	sandbags	does that mean applyTo is a built-in of some kind?
14:39	sandbags	or am i doing it wrong?
14:39	aperiodic	samaaron: i tried the quil 1.0.0 release with my kinect thing yesterday, to no avail
14:39	sandbags	(i was looking at the source of apply using c.r/source)
14:40	technomancy	sandbags: source only works on Clojure functions; applyTo is a Java method I believe
14:40	sandbags	ahhh
14:40	sandbags	thanks
14:40	technomancy	np
14:40	S11001001	sandbags: it is also easier to browse with M-. if you are using slime
14:40	sandbags	S11001001: thanks for the tip, but i'm not
14:40	technomancy	are there any fans of Leiningen shell wrappers who would be offended if they were replaced with a more general post-install mechanism?
14:41	sandbags	technomancy: leiningen yours?
14:41	technomancy	sandbags: indeed
14:41	sandbags	technomancy: cool beans, using it now
14:44	technomancy	excellent
15:03	sandbags	not far into this clojure book and the questions are piling up already... but i will spare you all my newbness and hope they get answered as I go along :)
15:06	fdaoud	sandbags: which book are you reading?
15:06	sandbags	fdaoud: the new ed of the prag's book
15:07	sandbags	so far i kind of wish i'd bought the O'Reilly book
15:07	sandbags	but i missed the half-price deal and balked at paying full-price
15:07	sandbags	i guess this one will hit it's stride
15:08	sandbags	but the O'Reilly one seemed a better introduction out of the gate
15:08	cemerick	sandbags: not too late, eh? ;-)
15:08	sandbags	cemerick: too late for what?
15:09	AimHere	Too late to turn back now, and learn PHP before it's too late
15:10	cemerick	sandbags: sorry, I was being cheeky. If you're really just trying to get moving, the first chapter is free; maybe it'll get you up to speed enough to be comfortable with PC? http://cdn.oreilly.com/oreilly/booksamplers/9781449394707_sampler.pdf
15:10	sandbags	cemerick: yes i have the first chapter
15:10	sandbags	cemerick: that's how i know it was a better introduction :)
15:10	headius	speaking of PHP...I found this entertaining: http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
15:10	sandbags	headius: that is some scary shit in there
15:11	sandbags	i found it hard to read
15:11	headius	I couldn't believe it doesn't provide stack traces of any kind
15:11	headius	I only got about halfway through, but jesus, PHP isn't even a programming language as far as I can tell
15:11	S11001001	headius: it sort of does, you just have to write your own catcher and trace printer for every project :)
15:13	headius	as a language implementer I can certainly appreciate the reduced complexity of no stack traces by default, but yeah :)
15:13	Wild_Cat	headius: good to see this paper is going around every community... We've been alternately laughing and crying about it in #python-offtopic for a few days now :D
15:13	headius	jruby doesn't get its pretty stack traces without a lot of fiddling
15:14	mrb_bk	dnolen: high five man, wish i could go to that conf
15:21	dnolen	mrb_bk: thx. StrangeLoop is way fun.
15:21	dnolen	mrb_bk: Emerging Languages looks extra hot
15:22	mrb_bk	dnolen: damn i know
15:22	scriptor	ooh, cool, the cfp is still open
15:22	scriptor	wait, is this the emerging languages camp?
15:23	fdaoud	sandbags: I'm waiting for both (paper) books to arrive..
15:23	mrb_bk	learn ALL OF THE LANGAUGES
15:24	dnolen	scriptor: i believe Emerging Langs CFP is now closed. but CFP for StrangeLoop open till mid May I think.
15:24	sandbags	fdaoud: cool, the prags book has an uneven style so far
15:24	sandbags	but the content is good
15:24	sandbags	but i'm taking it on trust they're going to explain a heap of shit
15:25	ibdknox	dnolen: now I have to figure out what I'm going to talk about :p
15:25	sandbags	because they don't stop to explain much as they go
15:25	scriptor	dnolen: really? Their last thing on their blog is that the cfp is open
15:25	dnolen	scriptor: I could be wrong!
15:25	scriptor	but I've seen confs not updating this stuff before
15:26	scriptor	eh, the submission page is open, don't have anything to lose
15:26	dnolen	ibdknox: haha, I'm sure Alex will be up for more than one Clojure related talk. Mine is all nerdy internals stuff.
15:26	ibdknox	I have a couple ideas
15:27	ibdknox	one that I think might be a lot of fun is titled "Behind the mirror" - I spent hundreds of hours behind a one way mirror watching people solve problems and code. Some neat lessons there
15:27	ibdknox	I'd love to do a bret victor-ish talk about the possibilities with clojure/clojurescript too
15:27	scriptor	ibdknox: whereat will you talk?
15:27	ibdknox	As many places as I can this year
15:28	ibdknox	hopefully strangeloop
15:28	lynaghk	ibdknox: I would love to hear a "Behind the mirror" talk.
15:28	ibdknox	definitely oredev in sweden
15:28	scriptor	ah, nice
15:28	dnolen	ibdknox: you should, especially since Bret Victor will be there!
15:28	ibdknox	I know :)
15:30	ibdknox	light table would be another potential thing to talk about
15:31	sandbags	technomancy: is there a way to get tab-completion of symbols in leiningen repl?
15:33	autodidakto	sandbags: ohmyzsh has a plugin for it
15:33	autodidakto	oh wait, lol nm
15:33	autodidakto	I thought you mean "of commands in bash"
15:33	llasram	sandbags: the terminal repl for lein 2.x has tab-completion
15:33	autodidakto	note to self: don't start answering questions within 5 minutes of waking up
15:34	sandbags	ah, homebrew gave me 1.7.1
15:34	llasram	Ah, homebrew
15:34	llasram	Actually, lein2 isn't stable yet
15:35	sandbags	i can live without, just lazy
15:35	llasram	There was just a new preview release, and I've had no problems with it, but there are apparently still a few issues to shake out
15:35	llasram	sandbags: You can have both at the same time for individual deving
15:35	llasram	I doubt homebrew buys you anything over the "self install"
15:35	llasram	which consists of putting the 'lein' shell script in your path, and running it
15:37	autodidakto	llasram: that's pretty much it. it copies it to your PATH and runs it for you
15:38	llasram	Oh, what homebrew does? Er, nice?
15:38	llasram	I try to pretend proprietary operating systems don't exist la la la
15:39	autodidakto	llasram: don't blame homebrew. blame technomancy for much an awesome script/program
15:40	autodidakto	llasram: usually though, homebrew leverages thousands of unix loving mac guys to give you the perfectlly tweaked make/config file ready to build
15:41	autodidakto	well, apt-get for mac is a better way to put it
15:43	llasram	Well, maybe `emerge` for Mac OS X? Doesn't it typically pull in source and compile it?
15:43	llasram	Or maybe... whatever the *BSDs use
15:43	llasram	Anyway
15:44	llasram	At my current office we spend waaaay too much time arguing about packaging :-)
15:46	alfborge	Are there any good blogs or articles about testing in clojure? Currently I'm using deftest, testing and is, but my tests are too fragile...
15:47	alfborge	As in I'm using many is-statements in one deftest, and if one of these causes and error then they all seem to fail.
15:48	S11001001	alfborge: further failures/errors would probably be cascades
15:49	S11001001	alfborge: and the best way is to look at various libraries' tests and see how they do it
15:51	S11001001	alfborge: one thing you'll see that way is that no one uses inline tests; everyone puts tests in separate files, usually in a parallel module hierarchy, as is encouraged by leiningen
15:51	scriptor	ah, emerginglang's cfp is closed for this year
15:51	emezeske	alfborge: That seems fishy to me; when one of my (is ...) fails, it doesn't cause any others to fail
15:51	alfborge	emezeske: The test isn't failing, it's throwing an error.
15:52	emezeske	alfborge: Oh, that would be hard to help with without seeing the code.
15:53	alfborge	Not a problem, I'm able to fix the error (despite clojure and the testing macros every attempt to confound me)
15:53	alfborge	I'm just annoyed that an error causes all other tests to stop running.
15:54	alfborge	Which is a sure sign that I'm "doing something wrong"
15:54	S11001001	so split up your deftests
15:54	S11001001	if you need common setup, use fixtures
15:54	emezeske	So it's actually the testing library that raises the error?
15:54	hcumberdale	Hi guys ;)
15:55	alfborge	emezeske: Nah, the current error was just me being stupid and shadowing a function with my let. :)
15:55	hcumberdale	Does anybody know how efficient clojure is when macros are used a lot?
15:55	hcumberdale	Or do macros cause memory holes?
15:55	S11001001	hcumberdale: macros slow down the compiler, not the execution speed of the running code
15:55	alfborge	hcumberdale: macros are evaluated to code at compile-time
15:55	progo	no matter since the macros are gone by runtime
15:56	hcumberdale	yeah but the runtime needs to allocate memory for it?!
15:56	alfborge	the runtime doesn't know about macros
15:56	hcumberdale	And the macros stay in memory after execution!?
15:56	S11001001	the macro definitions stay loaded, not the uses
15:56	hcumberdale	confused
15:56	alfborge	hcumberdale: the macros are replaced with actual code during compilation
15:56	joegallo	technomancy: is checksum-deps no longer a thing?
15:56	alfborge	hcumberdale: so the runtime only sees regular code
15:57	alfborge	hcumberdale: think of it as code generation at compile time
15:57	emezeske	hcumberdale: Are you familiar with C programming?
15:57	hcumberdale	alfborge, how should this be possible? with the dynamic they offer? Does the compiler check where the macro is used and then "x times" the f(n) is generated?
15:58	hcumberdale	yes emezeske
15:58	hcumberdale	But I thought lisp macros are different from c macros?!
15:58	emezeske	hcumberdale: Well, the thing is, they are both evaluated at compile time
15:59	emezeske	hcumberdale: So if you have #ifdef 0 ... #endif, that happens at compile time, right?
15:59	S11001001	hcumberdale: they are, but "different" doesn't mean "there are no similarities whatsoever"
15:59	hcumberdale	^^ crazy yes.
15:59	emezeske	hcumberdale: So picture clojure macros as similar to #ifdef and friends, except vastly more powerful. ^_^
15:59	hcumberdale	and (macro x) (macro y) => two instances that are generated at compile time ;)
16:02	alfborge	hcumberdale: when you compile code with a macro in it, the compiler executes the macros and replaces them with the resulting code, so yes to your question to me
16:03	jkrueger	i had a rather interesting issue with tools.logging today. I AOT compile code, which makes calls to logging functions from tools.logging. Those functions turn out to be marcos, which in turn emit calls to a library internal protocol into my code, which seems seems to break it. could anybody here tell me whether there is a known issue with protocols and AOT compiled code, when a protcol is not compiled but code using it is ?
16:04	hcumberdale	jkrueger, i'm using slf4j and logback to capture all the logging output (including the clojure logging output) and filtering it if needed
16:05	hcumberdale	I recommend this if other java libs are used that write dirty logging output to SYS_OUT
16:06	hcumberdale	or to SYS_ERR. Most java libs write errors to SYS_OUT ;(
16:06	jkrueger	i'm less curious about workarounds, than to understand why my code breaks
16:07	llasram	jkrueger: How is your AOTed code getting loaded when it breaks?
16:08	jkrueger	tools.logging does a reify at some point on a protocol called LoggingFactory, which appears to make my code depend on the the protocol's interface. when the name space is required, which contains the logging calls, a class not foind excpetion is thrown
16:08	jkrueger	naming the protocol from tools.logging
16:08	technomancy	joegallo: checksum-deps isn't needed in lein2
16:09	cduffy	How expensive is proxy? I'm currently calling it within function that's called in a loop (to allow a local ref to be closed over), but pondering if doing something different would be better.
16:09	llasram	jkrueger: Ah, gotcha. So the .class file contains hard references to the LoggingFactory interface, and the JVM is attempting to resolve those interfaces prior to executing the initializer code loading the tools.logging interface
16:09	joegallo	technomancy: ah, okay. also, i have lein tar in my dev profile's dependencies (new version). but it says it's not a task. :(
16:09	jkrueger	that's what it looks like
16:10	_312matt	sorry for this really really stupid questions
16:10	_312matt	(def hello (fn [] "Hello world"))
16:10	jkrueger	i wonder if this dependency could be removed if the logging interface in tools.logging used functions instead of macros
16:10	_312matt	how do i execute that and get it's return value
16:10	_312matt	when i execute it and try to do (prn hello)
16:10	_312matt	it goes
16:10	mefesto	_312matt: (println (hello))
16:11	_312matt	mafesto: it prints #<user$helloA user$helloA@755c62bc>
16:11	llasram	s,tools.logging interface,tools.logging namespace,
16:11	llasram	Hmm
16:11	llasram	I thought though that references to a class weren't enough to force class resolution and initalization
16:11	llasram	Is your code making logging calls in what ends up in static initializers?
16:11	technomancy	sandbags: yeah, give lein2 a try if you are using the command-line repl; the one that comes with lein1 is not very good
16:11	mefesto	you need parens around hello
16:11	raek	cduffy: proxy uses "reflection-ish" parts of java and methods are looked up via a clojure map from strings to functions
16:11	_312matt	THX! mafesto
16:11	_312matt	sorry for the stupid question, so bored today so i thought i would mess with clojure, i assure you i am not retarded
16:11	sandbags	technomancy: will do, thx
16:11	technomancy	just be prepared to fall back to lein1 for some projects; not everyone is onboard with the full awesomeness yet
16:11	raek	cduffy: reify on an interface generates a new jvm class that implements the methods directly
16:12	sandbags	technomancy: this is clojure day 1, i suspect i will not be straying into interesting areas of awesomeness any time soon :)
16:12	jkrueger	llasram: it's used in a multimethod dispatch at one point to emit a warning
16:12	jkrueger	otherwise no unusal places
16:14	mefesto	so does lein2 use nailgun?
16:14	technomancy	mefesto: no, it uses nrepl
16:16	llasram	jkrueger: Sorry, I don't have any other ideas. It seems like the sort of problem people would have run into before if it's a pervasive issue...
16:17	llasram	I know that I've AOTed code referencing Protocols without issue
16:19	sw1nn	Any zipper experts around?
16:19	sw1nn	I was looking at this question on SO - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10127023/filter-a-map-with-complex-nested-structure
16:19	mefesto	on first run lein2 launches an nrepl server?
16:20	sw1nn	There's an answer already, but I was trying a zipper based solution without much luck
16:20	technomancy	mefesto: oh, no that is not implemented. hopefully jark will allow that to work though.
16:20	sw1nn	I don't follow the make-node param to (zipper branch? children make-node root)
16:21	sw1nn	Where can I find examples of zipper usage?
16:21	sw1nn	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.zip/zipper isn't helping me
16:23	kephale	sw1nn: you probably dont want to use the function "zipper" directly, but instead seq-zip, vector-zip, or xml-zip
16:26	sw1nn	kephale: problem is that doesn't seem to work for maps
16:28	sw1nn	because (seq my-map) returns a sequence of [key val] which doesn't recurse presumably?
16:29	mefesto	if the latest version of lein-swank is 1.4.4 why doesn't that show up in: lein2 search lein-swank ?
16:30	technomancy	mefesto: probably your search indices are stale
16:30	technomancy	rm -rf ~/.lein/indices/http___clojars.org_repo_/
16:32	autodidakto	technomancy: that's what she said
16:32	jkrueger	llasram: i think i may have verified my working theory. i only use the "info" macro from logging at the moment. if i replace it with a function the dependency on the protocol interface disappears
16:32	mefesto	if i wanted to run a project in production using lein2 is there any special env vars or other configuration stuff i should know?
16:33	mefesto	im guessing it'd be something like: lein2 with-profile prod run
16:33	autodidakto	mefesto: did you read the Upgrading page on the leiningen githubs?
16:34	mefesto	autodidakto: nope, i'll check that out. thanks
16:34	kephale	sw1nn: well you can write a recursive seq-ing function
16:34	autodidakto	mefesto: you mean, as opposed to lein1? in either case, check out the sample.project.clj
16:34	kephale	, (require '[clojure.zip :as zip])
16:34	autodidakto	it's on the githubs, or you can type "lein help sample"
16:34	clojurebot	nil
16:35	kephale	, (zip/down (zip/seq-zip ((fn recseq [s] (if (or (vector? s) (map? s) (seq? s)) (map recseq (first s)) s)) {:a {:b 3}})))
16:35	clojurebot	[:a {:l [], :pnodes [(:a (:b 3))], :ppath nil, :r ((:b 3))}]
16:35	llasram	jkrueger: I'm confused as to how that happens though. AFAICT, the code emitted by the macros never mentions the protocol interface directly
16:35	jkrueger	i think the special case here may be that the protocol is implemented in a reify
16:35	jkrueger	and that is emitted into my code
16:35	jkrueger	not sure though
16:36	llasram	jkrueger: I don't think that should matter? The code I'm looking at calls impl/get-logger on a dynamic var. The reified protocol gets bound to the var, but that shouldn't be resolved at macro-expansion time
16:37	sw1nn	kephale: hmm, thanks I'm gonna have to study that a bit!
16:38	Bronsa	?
16:40	technomancy	mefesto: yeah, "with-profile prod" is the way to go for something like that
16:41	jkrueger	llasram: i agree. it shouldn't. but i can definitely reproduce this behavior by switching from macro to function and back
16:42	llasram	jkrueger: Very very strange. If tools.logging isn't doing anything especially unusual, then that may be a Clojure compiler bug
16:44	dnolen	looks like we're getting very close on PersistentHashMaps for CLJS.
16:44	rplevy	does anyone have a util library with condp-let in it?
16:46	lpetit	dnolen: you're doing my day, everyday :)
16:48	pandeiro	have the recent optimizations on CLJS made it into an official release?
16:48	dnolen	lpetit: ha not me, other people :)
16:48	dnolen	pandeiro: not yet.
16:50	hcumberdale	technomancy what is the advantage of lein2?
16:51	technomancy	oh man... where to start? =)
16:51	llasram	hcumberdale: Even though most people thought there was only room for another 17% more awesome in tool, he and the other contributors have squeezed in about 117% more
16:52	technomancy	hcumberdale: http://technomancy.us/158 is a good overview
16:52	technomancy	though it doesn't really mention the fact that the repl has been totally rewritten to use jline2 and have full tab completion
16:52	pandeiro	technomancy: like in slime?
16:52	hcumberdale	yeah!
16:53	technomancy	pandeiro: pretty much
16:53	afoolsuchasi	hey, bit new to clojure. trying to get a basic noir project up on beanstalk. tried to follow documentation on noir page and lein beanstalk page. ran "lein beanstalk deploy development" but got error INFO: I/O exception (java.net.SocketException). First guess is wrong port or something but does anyone have a link to a sample project that I could try to run to help diagnose? thx.
16:53	technomancy	I think it's actually the same codebase driving the completion
16:53	pandeiro	that is terrific
16:53	pandeiro	would that mean that it works with cljs?
16:53	technomancy	hm; I don't think so
16:53	technomancy	cljs doesn't have reified namespaces, does it?
16:54	pandeiro	paging dr nolen
16:54	pandeiro	i assume not
16:54	technomancy	there's technically no reason the new repl couldn't be ported to lein1 except that it would be less reason for people to upgrade, so I'm not going to do it =)
16:54	dnolen	technomancy: if the files have been analyzed tools can look inside of the cljs.compiler/namespaces atom for the same info.
16:55	hjs	hey, anybody using clojurescriptone here? is there any better combination of libraries for web dev?
16:55	llasram	Profiles are definitely the big draw for me. The :user profile alone is incredibly helpful, and it being provided by a general mechanism is just great for everyone
16:55	hcumberdale	super-awesome
16:57	technomancy	dnolen: yeah, I'm sure it's doable; it's just that a different approach would be needed from the library the new lein repl uses
16:58	technomancy	has anyone tried cljs with swank-js?
16:58	AWizzArd	hcumberdale: one interesting example is to have different profiles with different optional JVM parameters, such as “-Dcompile.time.flag=x”. Your code can include macros which lookup those properties and expand to nil in cases where you don’t want to include customer-specific code into some .jars. Very useful for some projects.
16:59	hcumberdale	Is the emacs clojure repl better than the one from vimclojure
17:00	hcumberdale	It really frustrates me! Start nailgun, open vim, \sR ESC ^ww v \eb \p ^ww ... begin to work here
17:00	AWizzArd	hcumberdale: depends on who you ask. Ask this question an emacs user (like me), or a vim user (:
17:01	hcumberdale	I like vim cause it seems so simple and I never understood this str+?! things in emacs
17:01	hcumberdale	>> http://mrozekma.com/editor-learning-curve.png
17:02	antares_	I am trying to refer to a function that's part of a protocol from a different function in the same deftype definition. it only works if I extract a helper function like so (see info, error and so on): https://gist.github.com/46f0563836ff51e9b13e. Is this how it supposed to be? or what I am trying to do should be possible?
17:02	emezeske	hjs: I'm using clojurescript, but did not base my project on clojurescript one
17:03	technomancy	profiles are definitely the biggest new feature in lein2; I'm very pleased with how they turned out
17:03	emezeske	hjs: A good start is just to use a combination of ibdknox' libraries (noir, crate, fetch, etc)
17:04	AWizzArd	technomancy: yes, this finally allows me to use Leiningen for every project, also in my company. We needed parameterized compilation, which is now provided.
17:08	ibdknox	bwahaha
17:08	ibdknox	time to write a blog post
17:10	emezeske	ibdknox: Uh oh, am I feeding people misinformation?
17:10	mefesto	lein2 repl is nice. is there any emacs / nrepl integration?
17:10	ibdknox	emezeske: oh no, that was completely unrelated
17:10	emezeske	ibdknox: oh haha
17:10	ibdknox	I just got something very, very cool to work
17:10	emezeske	awesome!
17:10	ibdknox	And I think that's enough to finally talk about this thing I've been playing around with :)
17:11	hjs	ibdknox: i'd like to know too :)
17:11	hjs	emezeske: looks very good, thanks
17:11	dnolen	ibdknox: bring it on!
17:11	ibdknox	hjs: cljs-template is the quickest way to get going
17:12	ibdknox	dnolen: should get the post + video out tonight or tomorrow :)
17:12	hjs	ibdknox: thanks, i'll play with it. any thoughts on clojurescriptone?
17:13	technomancy	mefesto: no nrepl.el yet; it's a long way off from being competitive with slime
17:13	ibdknox	hjs: awesome example with fantastic documentation, not a great starting point for a new project though. So it depends on what you want to do :)
17:15	hjs	ibdknox: why it's not a good starting point for new project?
17:15	ibdknox	hjs: too much going on that's unrelated to what you're probably doing
17:16	hjs	ibdknox: i have little to worry about the front-end, but need to help testing and provide some basic functions for the front-end developer, so i think clojurescriptone might be a good choice
17:16	ibdknox	I know some do use it as a starting point, but it's kind of in this weird limbo of including what are essentailly libs in its source and such
17:16	hjs	ibdknox: i see
17:17	ibdknox	either way, there's nothing wrong with starting from it
17:17	ibdknox	whatever works :)
17:18	ibdknox	as a clean, simple starting point for something new, cljs-template is probably the right place to look
17:18	hjs	ibdknox: yeah, i'll give it a shot :) and then probably cleanup libs for my specific need.
17:22	tmciver	I'm seeing some unexpected behavior when trying to call a method of a proxied object when creating an instance using (.newInstance my-proxy-class). Does anyone have any advice to get around this problem? https://refheap.com/paste/2063
17:23	amalloy	tmciver: don't do that
17:23	hiredman	tmciver: don't do that
17:23	hiredman	tmciver: the class generated by the proxy macro is not for you
17:24	amalloy	and even if it were, (.newInstance foo) wouldn't work if the proxy body closed over any locals
17:25	tmciver	hiredman, amalloy: I wouldn't normally do that but a JavaFX application requires you to pass the java.lang.Class and I assume it's instantiating one of these internally.
17:25	muhoo	i vaguely remember there being a way to get lein to symlink jars into lib instead of copying them, but i don't rememebr what it was
17:25	kjellski	ls -lh
17:25	kjellski	arch, sorry guys
17:25	amalloy	you probably can't do that with proxy, tmciver. code that uses reflection is pretty fragile/finicky, so you probably have to write some glue in java or with gen-class
17:26	antares_	tada! lein2-preview3 is live on travis-ci.org. (cc cemerick)
17:26	technomancy	antares_: nice!
17:26	tmciver	amalloy: yeah, that's what I thought. I just wanted to make sure.
17:26	tmciver	and it looks like deftype won't work either becasue it only accepts Object, correct?
17:27	amalloy	if you only need to implement interfaces (not extend a class), you can use deftype. but i remember javafx causing problems for hordes of clojure devs, so that's probably not true
17:27	tmciver	amalloy: OK, thanks for the help.
17:29	mmarczyk	dnolen: ping?
17:29	dnolen	mmarczyk: hello
17:29	mmarczyk	hi
17:30	mmarczyk	fighting git atm, but almost done with it
17:30	dnolen	mmarczyk: excellent!
17:30	mmarczyk	about the #_-commented-out-code
17:30	mmarczyk	do you want the old map-emitting code in the compiler removed?
17:31	mmarczyk	I originally left it in on the off chance there are some uncaught bugs, so there's a natural quick fix
17:31	mmarczyk	of course, there are no uncaught bugs
17:31	mmarczyk	(right?)
17:31	mmarczyk	but anyway.
17:33	mmarczyk	I expect it'll be going back in eventually too, since I imagine ObjMaps at least may be more efficient in certain small map scenarios
17:35	dnolen	mmarczyk: yes replace the map emitting code. We can figure out later whether to emit ObjMaps or ArrayMap or whatever for small maps.
17:36	mmarczyk	ok
17:37	mmarczyk	about proto perf vs. direct impl via Object
17:37	mmarczyk	the difference is rather striking in Rhino
17:37	mmarczyk	thanks for the hint
17:37	dnolen	mmarczyk: mark the current maps as deprecated.
17:37	mmarczyk	ok, will do
17:37	dnolen	mmarczyk: np.
17:37	mmarczyk	does gclosure shave any of that off?
17:38	dnolen	mmarczyk: no gclosure optimizations are very specific. remove deep property access and unwrapping needless functions are the biggest wins.
17:38	mmarczyk	ok, got it
17:44	mmarczyk	dnolen: all-in-one patch posted to JIRA
17:55	hjs	the latest swank-clojure seems broken? my lein version is 1.7.1
17:57	dnolen	mmarczyk: Thanks. I think I'll need to look more closely at the patch. Doing some quick perf tests I think the hit on small maps vs. ObjMap is too just big to merge this in just yet.
17:58	amalloy	hjs: and what is your swank-clojure version? 1.4.2 is pretty stable afaik, and if you're complaining that a snapshot is broken i wouldn't really be too surprised
17:58	kjellski	technomancy, can you give me a hint on this? Its an installation error from starter-kit in emacs… https://gist.github.com/2371270
17:58	hjs	amalloy: 1.4.4, i got this error message "java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate swank/swank__init.class or swank/swank.clj on classpath: (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)", but second run made it works, no idea
17:59	mmarczyk	dnolen: sure
17:59	amalloy	i dunno, hop into #leiningen and give technomancy a ring
17:59	hjs	amalloy: ok
17:59	dnolen	mmarczyk: that said, update perf on V8 is pretty sick.
17:59	mmarczyk	:-)
18:00	amalloy	kjellski: those look like warnings, not errors. i don't know a lot about elisp culture, but code with a million warnings seems surprisingly acceptable
18:00	kjellski	amalloy, lol okay… is there a way to check wether it finished completels?
18:01	technomancy	kjellski: yeah, that's expected
18:01	amalloy	uhhh, you could open up emacs and hit M-x clojure-mode -- that should work iff the compile succeeded? not really my area of expertise
18:01	technomancy	it's dumb; the elisp compiler whines about silly things sometimes
18:01	kjellski	technomancy, thanks =) ...
18:01	technomancy	so nobody pays attention to the warnings
18:02	mmarczyk	dnolen: as a quick fix, I could add thresholding using ObjMap / HashMap; or maybe ObjMap + a port of ArrayMap (which would take slightly longer)
18:02	amalloy	technomancy: referring to a free variable sounds bad. is it okay because of the pervasive dynamic scope? like, i can refer to this variable that's not lexically scoped because emacs has no lexical scope?
18:03	zerokarmaleft	technomancy: is there a way to turn off elisp compiler warnings? does elisp have multiple warning levels?
18:03	dnolen	mmarczyk: I think we're at the point where some tests on jsperf.com would be useful like we did for various PersistentVector uses cases.
18:04	dnolen	mmarczyk: specifically we care about access / update perf on small / big maps - we want to be able to assess that easily.
18:04	technomancy	amalloy: in that gist it's a case of setqing something before it's required because the lib that contains that defvar isn't strictly required. but some of the warnings are bona fide stupid, like "ooooh, looks like you required cl.el; that won't do."
18:05	technomancy	zerokarmaleft: I don't know; I haven't looked into it
18:05	mmarczyk	dnolen: right, I'll look into it
18:05	dnolen	mmarczyk: exciting stuff - thanks for taking this on!
18:06	mmarczyk	not at all, it's a fantastic experience
18:08	mmarczyk	and cljs "just works" in a way which is absolutely amazing
18:08	dnolen	mmarczyk: it's pretty mind blowing.
18:08	mmarczyk	it is
18:09	dnolen	mmarczyk: and JS engines are getting so finely tuned. The perf of persistent data structure on modern JS engines is shocking.
18:09	mmarczyk	right
18:10	mmarczyk	well, I've got an unusually busy weekend ahead of me (incl. Friday), but I'll definitely be squeezing in some cljs time
18:10	mmarczyk	I'll look into jsperf.com, thresholding etc.
18:11	dnolen	mmarczyk: no problem, I'll try to take a look as well.
18:11	mmarczyk	great, thanks
18:11	dnolen	mmarczyk: it may be as simple as using ObjMap up until we hit 32 keys or we get complex keys.
18:12	mmarczyk	I've been reading the transient map impl in Clojure too and I'll definitely be experimenting with adding an equivalent to the cljs port
18:13	dnolen	mmarczyk: cool!
18:28	Licenser	In cljs r1011 I keep getting odd situatiosn where it claims "Cannot read property 'cljs$lang$maxFixedArity' of null" on the line: "cljs.core.apply.call(null, cljs.core._STAR_main_cli_fn_STAR_, cljs.core.drop.call(null, 2, cljs.nodejs.process.argv));"
18:28	Licenser	any idea?
18:30	dnolen	Licenser: did you not have that problem before?
18:31	Licenser	I've seen the error message before -when I use a wrong function name for example - but in this place never and that is generated code
18:31	kjellski	I've installed starter-kit now, then I browse to a leon project… and do the clojure-jack-in… I've already https://gist.github.com/2046593 in my .emacs file… and it still tells me lein is not a recognized command...
18:32	Licenser	it looks like apply was not declared which is odd
18:33	hiredman	do you have reason to believe set-exec-path-from-shell-PATH works?
18:33	hiredman	have you checked you path in emacs and seen that it contains the right directories?
18:33	hiredman	(getenv "PATH")
18:34	dnolen	Licenser: what I mean is did your code work before r1011
18:35	kjellski	hiredman, I've now just linked the ~/bin/lein to /bin… so this is gone, now slime-clj is an unrecognized symbol…
18:35	technomancy	you'll want to get rid of slime-clj
18:35	hiredman	slime-clj means you are mixing bits
18:36	Licenser	yes but I also had changes since then - when I saw this the first time make clean and make fixed it
18:36	hiredman	slime-clj is part of a fork of swank-clojure that is named ritz
18:36	technomancy	clojurebot: slime-clj
18:36	clojurebot	I don't understand.
18:36	Licenser	dnolen what confuses meis that the like looks like boilerplate code, it does not find cljs.core.apply
18:37	Licenser	and the call seems to be the entry call for node.js
18:37	kjellski	actually this is really frustrating… I'm now trying to get an acceptable emacs setup for 2 evenings… why is it so hard?
18:37	technomancy	clojurebot: slime-clj is deprecated.
18:37	clojurebot	c'est bon!
18:38	dnolen	Licenser: I'm not that familiar with the Node.js stuff in CLJS. It would be helpful if you did a git bisect to figure which commit broke your code.
18:38	Licenser	my main problem is that the line isn't techincally 'my' code o.o
18:38	Licenser	and the error pops on and off when I cahnge stuff in different places
18:39	dnolen	Licenser: i suspect that cljs.core._STAR_main_cli_fn_STAR_ is null sometimes.
18:40	kjellski	You know, when there would exist clojurebox anymore, I would've already installed windows in a vm to get rid of this… is it easier for others?
18:40	Licenser	this time it works again - after changeing a string constant o.O
18:40	technomancy	kjellski: in general it's not bad if you follow the official docs
18:40	dnolen	Licenser: if you can enumerate the steps to repro - then open a ticket in JIRA.
18:41	technomancy	though the macosecks path stuff is frustrating no matter what
18:41	kjellski	technomancy, for clojure, google is not able to find an really easy way to get you started locally… any reasons?
18:42	technomancy	google indexes a lot of things; good and bad.
18:42	technomancy	it's a known bug.
18:42	Licenser	dnolen I'll try to track it down further
18:42	technomancy	unfortunately I haven't been able to find the URL for the bug report form for Google Search =)
18:42	kjellski	technomancy, soooo? ^^ tell me how to find the good.
18:42	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure is probably your best bet
18:43	technomancy	or dev.clojure.org's Getting Started with Emacs, though the comments on there are misleading and I haven't been able to fix them
18:58	kjellski	technomancy, thanks for the hints… and I'm extremely sure that you have already done extremely much to make things easier… but for me, this is unacceptable as a staring point to get into a development environment. I'll leave this for someone with more time and get back to lein repl… which is none but works.
18:59	technomancy	yeah, learning Emacs at the same time as learning Clojure is not going to work very well.
19:00	kjellski	technomancy, could you point me to somewhere I could file this in a matter of a community problem? I tried clooj, I tried counterclockwise, I tried Emacs, Aquamacs and Emacs.app… I mean this is really no way to start…
19:01	technomancy	I think most people in the community would give the same advice; use what you already know and don't try to learn a new environment at the same time as a new language.
19:03	kjellski	technomancy, okay. nevermind. maybe everybody else is just fine with this ;)
19:03	kjellski	technomancy, thanks again, I'll try to get into clojure questions...
19:04	brehaut	i learnt clojure with textmate and the basic repl (pretty much the worst enviroment for learning clojure)
19:04	brehaut	and then picked up emacs later
19:04	brehaut	much less pain
19:04	brehaut	oh hes gone
19:22	kenneth	hey, so i want to try to use clojure to read a massive (140M lines) file in parallel (10 concurrent executions or so) and process & import into mongo. i think congomongo will handle the mongo part, but do you have any recommendations for the parallel part, or any gotchas in reading massive files
19:22	kenneth	?
19:23	kenneth	or maybe this might be a better packageL https://clojars.org/mongo-clojure-wrapper
19:25	hiredman	kenneth: a. https://mobile.twitter.com/roflscaletips/status/189397614813384704 b. use RandomAccessFile
19:34	guns	Is the mailing list moderated? I sent off a message yesterday, but it hasn't shown up.
19:34	technomancy	it's moderated, yeah
19:34	guns	It's not terribly important, but I don't want to make a mistake of double posting
19:39	emezeske	guns: It can take a couple days to show up sometimes :/
19:40	kenneth	so, i can never figure out how to require clojure-contrib properly
19:40	kenneth	is there a trick to it? with lein
19:40	brehaut	kenneth: first trick, dont use clojure-contrib with 1.3+
19:41	kenneth	aha? what to use instead then?
19:41	brehaut	~contrib
19:41	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
19:41	antares_	kenneth: individual libraries under github.com/clojure
19:41	guns	emezeske: ah. kind of makes discussion difficult. I guess it's better than the spam death most google groups go through though
19:41	emezeske	guns: Yeah, it makes discussion impossible. I feel for you; I didn't get un-moderated for several weeks
19:42	kenneth	ah, okay
19:42	kenneth	package management is one of the most confusing part of using clojure for me. i have no java background, which certainly doesn't help :p
19:44	brehaut	theres not really to much to it: you specifiy your dependancies in your project rather than installing them site wide, and you let lein manage fetching them and sticking them on the class path
19:44	technomancy	the most confusing thing about it is contrib
19:45	technomancy	which only ever existed because clojure lacked dependency management
19:45	brehaut	kenneth: the only trick with the new contrib is that some of the libs are only available via the snapshot repo which i don't believe defaults to not being in your dependancies list
19:50	AWizzArd	guns: the list is semi-moderated: after your first post a moderator (i.e. Rich Hickey) must activate you. From that point on your posts will appear seconds later.
19:51	guns	AWizzArd: That makes sense. What a chore for Rich though
19:59	emezeske	guns, AWizzArd: You don't necessarily get off the "needs to be hand-moderated" list after your first post.
20:00	guns	I'm fine with moderation. Achieving high signal to noise in a list is pretty difficult.
20:01	guns	I don't have much to say as a Clojure neophyte atm, anyhow
20:06	antares_	guns: any reasonably popular google group is moderated these days. Otherwise, spam.
20:10	guns	Google has a rating system in the groups interface. If they were truly interested in the problem, they could implement a stackoverflow style rep system
20:11	guns	Not much money in newsgroups though
20:12	antares_	guns: the point of groups is to pipe you into google+
20:12	guns	ick
20:12	antares_	guns: everything else is not too interesting to the big G
20:13	antares_	guns: for example, if you join a group now, they do not prefill your name. You either have to type it in (inconvenient), or sign up for a google+ account.
20:24	kenneth	so i'm having trouble with this: https://gist.github.com/0de71c218fea3ec83c6f -- i get FileNotFoundException Could not locate monger/core__init.class or monger/core.clj on classpath: clojure.lang.RT.load (RT.java:430)
20:25	kenneth	i have monger in my deps and did `lein deps`
20:25	antares_	kenneth: can you show me your project.clj?
20:25	kenneth	https://gist.github.com/ff1450649c6b40a42b1f
20:25	antares_	kenneth: also, monger is 1.3-only. clojure.contrib.json is not necessary since monger integrates with clojure.data.json (data.json under github.com/clojure)
20:25	antares_	kenneth: you don't have monger on your dependency list
20:26	antares_	you have congomongo
20:26	kenneth	er
20:26	kenneth	i'm silly
20:26	kenneth	very very silly
20:26	antares_	[com.novemberain/monger "1.0.0-beta4"]
20:27	kenneth	for multiple requires, should i make a new (:require …) for each, or try to combine them some other way?
20:27	antares_	you shoudl combined them
20:28	antares_	kenneth: https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/blob/master/test/monger/test/collection_test.clj#L7
20:28	antares_	[monger core util] is the same as monger.core monger.util
20:28	technomancy	don't put bare :use calls outside tests though
20:28	technomancy	"only use :use with only"
20:29	antares_	kenneth: you said you don't have Java background, what is your background?
20:29	hiredman	antares_: ugh
20:29	kenneth	antares_: objc / php / ruby
20:30	antares_	kenneth: also, monger was my 2nd clojure library ever so it sure has pieces I am dying to tidy up :)
20:30	hiredman	antares_: don't combine namespaces like that
20:30	kenneth	i wrote a mongo library too :) php orm
20:30	hiredman	antares_: and don't tell other people to do it
20:30	antares_	kenneth: ok. Then require is very similar to Ruby's Kernel#require and use is like require + include except that you can include only individual bits (functions)
20:30	antares_	hiredman: why?
20:31	kenneth	but yeah, i find dependency management / namespacing etc in clojure / java extremely confusing
20:31	hiredman	antares_: because it is bad style
20:31	antares_	kenneth: dependency management part is very similar to rubygems + bundler (combined)
20:31	antares_	hiredman: then what is good style?
20:31	technomancy	antares_: good style encourages greppability
20:32	hiredman	[monger.collection :as mgcol] ;; good
20:32	technomancy	you should be able to determine all uses of monger.util with a single grep call
20:32	hiredman	[monger core util] ;; bad
20:33	antares_	I agree that [monger core util] is not a good idea and also rarely helpful anyway. I thought the suggestion was to use (:require …) (:require …) which I don't see any upsides to.
20:34	antares_	I will tidy monger up tomorrow, good to know
20:35	kenneth	antares_: does this make sense?https://gist.github.com/dd1e10668d25dac35208
20:35	kenneth	gets me a ClassCastException clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to java.lang.Comparable clojure.lang.Util.compare (Util.java:104)
20:35	antares_	technomancy: as for greppability, I am a heavy emacs user but I also love intellij idea. I think tools should move to the point when you have better ways of finding namespace usages than grep.
20:35	kenneth	added the correct dep
20:35	technomancy	antares_: I'll take that further: I don't think humans should have to write ns clauses except in edge cases.
20:36	emezeske	antares_: I'm all for better ways of finding namespace usages, but please don't break my grep
20:36	antares_	kenneth: you don't need quotes in ['clojure.contrib.json :as 'json]. Also, I strongly recommend you use github.com/clojure/data.json or cheshire
20:36	technomancy	but it's good to make concessions to the lowest common denominator
20:36	technomancy	because you may want to investigate things when you don't have the full force of your tooling to bring to bear
20:36	antares_	emezeske: sorry but I am not formatting my code just for grep friendliness. that's just too much to ask for in 2012.
20:36	kenneth	i am using data.json, i think, antares_
20:37	antares_	same for 80 characters-wide columns, we are no longer on tiny terminal windows
20:37	kenneth	or wait
20:37	kenneth	ugh
20:37	antares_	kenneth: if so, you need https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/blob/master/src/monger/json.clj#L12
20:37	emezeske	antares_: I don't care what you do on your own projects, of course
20:37	kenneth	yeah, nice catch, thanks
20:38	technomancy	antares_: FSVO "we"
20:38	technomancy	I'm chatting in a window that's 87 columns wide
20:38	emezeske	Well, and most people that care about 80 columns care about it because they split their screen
20:39	emezeske	Not because their screen is literally only 80 characters wide
20:39	amalloy	my source files are 100 characters wide only by compromise - i'd rather our company standard were 80
20:40	hiredman	we have tests in our test suite that scan the source looking for lines over 80 characters and fail if they are found
20:40	technomancy	hiredman: also it bumps up your name in the on-call rotation if it finds them, doesn't it?
20:40	technomancy	=)
20:41	amalloy	i can't see things at the tiny fonts/resolutions most people use; the most i can comfortably fit on my entire monitor is 157 columns. there are still plenty of good reasons to have 80 be a standard, even if it's not totally inviolate it's a good starting point
20:41	hiredman	and one emacs per screen
20:41	antares_	emezeske: I split my screen as well. However, if I go above 80 or 90 on some lines, that's not a problem for me. Maybe it is a habit of using large screens.
20:42	antares_	for example, failing builds if one line is 81 character long is just a waste of time in my opinion
20:42	antares_	anyway
20:42	emezeske	I didn't mean to start a religious war
20:43	antares_	I will clean up old ns macro issues in my projects. monger was started when I was 2+ weeks into clojure.
20:43	amalloy	antares_: one advantage of hiredman's approach is now it's totally impossible to use ridiculous classes like IMavenProjectFileImmutableArtifactConfiguratorProxyBeanFactoryCacheImpl
20:44	amalloy	sorry boss, can't fit that on a line
20:44	hiredman	I didn't say I added the tesst
20:44	amalloy	neither did i. it's the approach you just mentioned; i suppose you can object to my calling it "yours" if you like
20:45	antares_	amalloy: but isn't that fixing a social problem with tools? we all know how far that goes
20:49	kenneth	antares_: can monger upset?
20:49	wkmanire	Good eeevening.
20:49	kenneth	upsert*
20:50	antares_	kenneth: yes, see monger.collection/update and /save
20:51	antares_	kenneth: monger tries to follow Java client API conventions where they make sense. It both makes it more familiar to at least some people and makes it very lightweight and fast.
20:51	antares_	even in "safe" mode that it uses by default
20:52	wkmanire	Is let implemented in clojure or is it part syntax?
20:52	antares_	kenneth: https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/blob/master/test/monger/test/updating_test.clj#L112. You can find plenty of examples under this dir https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/tree/master/test/monger/test
20:53	wkmanire	part of the syntax*
20:55	dnolen	mmarczyk: question, why are you using the undefined? predicate the PHM impl?
20:56	dnolen	in the PHM impl I mean.
20:56	emezeske	wkmanire: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/let
20:56	emezeske	wkmanire: showing source reveals it's a macro.
20:56	mmarczyk	dnolen: hm, I'm pretty sure I put it in while trying to fix some bug or other
20:56	mmarczyk	dnolen: which did go away, but I'm not sure about the causal relationship
20:56	dnolen	mmarczyk: yeah undefined? is only for interop.
20:57	mmarczyk	dnolen: I'd say it was probably to do with undefined values with which some array was initialized
20:57	mmarczyk	presumably ArrayNode's array
20:57	wkmanire	I don't know much about the language yet, I've been reading Cemerick's book.
20:57	emezeske	wkmanire: although the macro expands to (let* ...)
20:57	wkmanire	When I got to the part on destructuring I was just thinking...
20:57	mmarczyk	if -- and that's a significant if -- it's actually needed
20:57	wkmanire	How in the world was that accomplished.
20:58	emezeske	wkmanire: This is how: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/destructure
20:58	emezeske	wkmanire: :)
20:58	dnolen	mmarczyk: you should never need undefined in CLJS
20:58	emezeske	wkmanire: better link: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L3900
20:59	mmarczyk	dnolen: in Rhino, (make-array 5) returns an array of 5 x undefined
20:59	wkmanire	jeese
20:59	wkmanire	I've a long way to go yet.
20:59	mmarczyk	dnolen: (nil? (aget (make-array 5) 0)) returns false
21:00	S11001001	sure, but null == undefined
21:00	emezeske	wkmanire: To be fair, that is a pretty gnarly piece of code :P
21:00	S11001001	just that null !== undefined
21:00	mmarczyk	not sure how to get at js's == in cljs
21:00	mmarczyk	except through (js* "~{} == ~{})
21:01	mmarczyk	but thanks, that's a great point
21:01	mmarczyk	one check less
21:01	mmarczyk	I'll make the change sometime soon
21:01	dnolen	mmarczyk: thinking ...
21:02	mmarczyk	incidentally, I'm working on the transient impl atm
21:02	wkmanire	emezeske: I think I can recognize some of this...
21:04	dnolen	mmarczyk: k, you need to flip your tests.
21:04	wkmanire	Its nice when major components of a language are expressed in the langauge itself.
21:04	wkmanire	It's*
21:04	dnolen	mmarczyk: cljs.core.truth_ tests with != null && !== false
21:05	dnolen	mmarczyk: note that != is coercive.
21:05	emezeske	wkmanire: Agreed!
21:05	kenneth	hiredman: hey earlier, you mentioned using randomaccessfile to read and execute a file line-by-line in parallel. is there any helpful tutorials you know of that will show me the way? i've been trying to research it and can't find anything helpful
21:06	mmarczyk	dnolen: ok, so do I write (or (undefined? node) (nil? node)) or perhaps (js* "(~{} != null)" node) ?
21:06	hiredman	kenneth: oh, well randomaccessfile can let you read out chunks of a file without have to seek through it linearly
21:06	hiredman	depending on the format of the data in the file
21:06	dnolen	mmarczyk: no, you keep handing the nil case first, just handle it last
21:07	mmarczyk	?
21:07	kenneth	my file is a file with 140M lines each containing a json document
21:07	dnolen	(if (or (nil? ...) (undefined? ...)) case1 case2)) -> (if ... case2 case1)
21:07	hiredman	multiline json document?
21:07	hiredman	that is really almost the worst case
21:08	antares_	kenneth: take a look at http://blog.malcolmsparks.com/?p=17
21:08	mmarczyk	dnolen: ahhh, ok
21:08	mmarczyk	got it this time
21:08	antares_	kenneth: plus, if you have 1 document per line, I believe mongoimport can do what you need w/o any code on your part
21:08	kenneth	each line = a new json document. {…}\n{…} etc. wanted to see if i could read it and process it in parallel, something like 10 at a time
21:08	kenneth	antares_: yeah, but i have to process 'em before importing them, not a straight import
21:09	antares_	kenneth: ok
21:09	kenneth	i could have done it fairly easily in ruby/php, wanted to try it in clojure for the hell of it
21:09	mmarczyk	dnolen: I'll wrap up a couple of loose ends in the transient stuff and make the change
21:09	kenneth	almost starting to regret it, i'm like a few hours into the project already, it would've been done a long time ago haha
21:09	hiredman	well, the like from antares_ shows how to read from the file linearly, and parallelizing after that is trivial
21:10	hiredman	the link
21:10	antares_	kenneth: well, you can turn it into a lazy sequence with (line-seq (io/reader "bigfile")) and then split it into groups of N and use pmap
21:10	hiredman	parallelizing reads from a big file of json blobs is less trivial
21:10	antares_	kenneth: if ordering of input does not matter, using a thread pool (execution service in JDK parlance) is another easy option
21:12	antares_	kenneth: for pmap to have good effect you'll probably need to use groups of 10,000 or so. Plus, make sure to use monger.collection/insert-batch and not just /insert in a loop.
21:18	cemerick	antares_: thanks for lein preview 3 on travis :-)
21:18	antares_	cemerick: friend is green now? :)
21:18	cemerick	yup; it was ~2 minutes after you mentioned the upgrade
21:18	antares_	cemerick: very cool
21:19	antares_	cemerick: next up, getting ring, noir and korma on travis. May be a bit more challenging :)
21:19	cemerick	what, you haven't bribed ibdknox and weavejester yet? :-P
21:20	antares_	cemerick: I submitted PRs (for noir and korma) ;)
21:20	devn	so...i guess i never came across this, but if i have an (atom ()) and I want to (swap! my-atom cons ...), what is the right way to do that?
21:21	devn	i know i can use conj, but i just had never considered using cons there, and got some weird behavior
21:21	devn	,(cons '() "bar")
21:21	clojurebot	(() \b \a \r)
21:22	dnolen	mmarczyk: are you inlining bitpos?
21:22	dnolen	mmarczyk: also probably want to replace bit-count with something like this, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/109023/best-algorithm-to-count-the-number-of-set-bits-in-a-32-bit-integer
21:24	mmarczyk	dnolen: bitpos -- no, nor mask
21:24	mmarczyk	dnolen: probably worthwhile, though I'm not sure it's possible to make a compiler macro private at this time?
21:25	dnolen	mmarczyk: no, but I don't really consider that a priority.
21:26	dnolen	mmarczyk: CLJS doesn't currently respect private defs at all.
21:26	dnolen	mmarczyk: less of an issue in CLJS since we don't have naked use anyway.
21:26	mmarczyk	dnolen: thanks for the SO link; I used the "Brian Kernighan's way" algo from the bit twiddling hacks page, but I'll switch
21:26	mmarczyk	dnolen: right, I completely withdraw that remark
21:27	dnolen	mmarczyk: might as well compare, I'm not sure which is faster.
21:27	kenneth	antares_ hiredman okay will look into that
21:27	mmarczyk	dnolen: right, will do
21:28	kenneth	antares_: is there an update batch functionality?
21:28	mmarczyk	dnolen: though as mentioned above, I'll make the small changes after a just a little extra coding on the transient stuff, which is coming along nicely :-)
21:29	dnolen	mmarczyk: sounds good. PHM is a monster compared to PV.
21:30	technomancy	I feel like any discussion of line-based I/O is incomplete without mentioning _ato's widefinder2: http://meshy.org/2009/12/13/widefinder-2-with-clojure.html
21:30	mmarczyk	~430 lines at first attempt :-)
21:30	clojurebot	Pardon?
21:30	technomancy	kenneth: ^
21:30	technomancy	if you want super mega speed
21:31	livingston	I have a situation where I'm reading in some data files (just using read, not evaling them), but I have some repetitive constructs in these files (that are created by hand) I have no problem leaving read-eval on, and I have no problem with reader macros (but they aren't directly supported)...
21:32	livingston	... the problem is the input is something like {:k1 v1 :k2 ((x x x) (a p b) (b p c) (c p d) (y y y))}
21:33	devn	technomancy: im still surprised that tbray never put ato's implementation on the results page
21:33	livingston	I'd like to be able to do something like {:k1 v1 :k2 ((x x x) (do-something-here a b c d) (y y y ))} and have the common pattern seen by the reader instead
21:34	livingston	there's really nothing I can do to do that is there?
21:34	antares_	kenneth: you want to update multiple documents or upsert them?
21:34	kenneth	antares_: upsert
21:35	antares_	kenneth: I think it's :multi true (right after :upsert true)
21:35	dnolen	mmarczyk: there's also some places where you have complex boolean tests because you aren't following the Java implementation closely
21:35	jkkramer	livingston: reader literals?
21:35	antares_	kenneth: but I am not entirely sure, I haven't used multi upserts, let me take a look at our test
21:35	antares_	*tests
21:35	mmarczyk	dnolen: ouch :-(
21:36	mmarczyk	dnolen: I'll fix anything you point out, then go over the code again a couple of times
21:36	dnolen	mmarczyk: yeah I can improve the boolean stuff but only so much.
21:36	antares_	kenneth: https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/blob/master/test/monger/test/updating_test.clj#L68
21:36	kenneth	basically, i have a dump of {uuid:…, otherid:…, …} documents, and i want to transform them into {uuid:…, otherids:[otherid, otherid,…], …} documents
21:36	livingston	jkkramer: like a reader macro that would expand (do-something-here a b c d) into (a p b) (b p c) (c p d)
21:36	dnolen	mmarczyk: calling not stinks.
21:36	antares_	kenneth: if mongo supports it, you should be able to use both :upsert true and :multi true, but I am not sure I understand what exactly that would do :)
21:37	livingston	jkkramer: as if the whole thing was back-ticked, I would want to ~@ splice stuff in...
21:37	mmarczyk	dnolen: ok, I'll try and refrain from that dodgy activity :-)
21:38	dnolen	mmarczyk: it's not your fault - this is low level stuff and not at all clear what the latest optimizations can actually do :)
21:38	jkkramer	livingston: maybe use data readers, new in 1.4? https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L6609
21:38	mmarczyk	dnolen: "only so much" seems euphemistic in this case... but I'll try to do my part, of course
21:39	mmarczyk	dnolen: it's fun to be exposed to that :-)
21:39	jkkramer	{:k1 v1 :k2 ((x x x) #foo/bar (a b c d) …}
21:39	amalloy	i don't think data readers can do this, because he wants to return multiple objects
21:39	jkkramer	ah true
21:39	jkkramer	they would need to be spliced in somehow
21:40	dnolen	mmarczyk: yeah, I'll probably add a not-nil? compiler macros to support PHM.
21:40	amalloy	likewise for macros, and reader macros in general. nothing in the lisp ecosystem i know of lets you do that
21:40	dnolen	macro I mean.
21:40	mmarczyk	dnolen: woot!
21:41	livingston	yes. ideally multiple forms.
21:41	amalloy	however you could do {:k1 v1 :k2 #with/magic ((x x x) (magic a b c d) (y y y))}
21:41	dnolen	mmarczyk: yeah looking over PHM.java I would follow it's pattern of very simple boolean tests where you can.
21:42	dnolen	mmarczyk: no or/and/not if you can help it.
21:42	amalloy	livingston: sufficient for your needs?
21:43	mmarczyk	dnolen: well, I'm definitely getting rid of the undefined? stuff, and I guess also if-not (though I'd sort of expect it to be a flipped if rather than a hidden not call)
21:43	mmarczyk	dnolen: and then I'll reexamine the code to see where it deviates from PHM.java
21:43	amalloy	mmarczyk: i feel similarly about if-not and when-not. it baffles me that they have a not call
21:43	livingston	maybe, although then with/magic would have to scan for magic or whatever and know how to expand it. ideally I don't want to have to know what macros were "user" defined to expand them.
21:44	amalloy	wat. whatever macros are user-defined will do their own scanning
21:44	mmarczyk	amalloy: exactly.
21:45	amalloy	livingston: you really can't get away from doing some scanning though, because someone has to be responsible for the splicing, and it can't be the "function" itself - one form can't expand to multiple forms
21:46	livingston	I really thought you could make a splicing reader macro (at least in common lisp)
21:47	mmarczyk	dnolen: ouch, I really am using not unnecessarily... what was I thinking. will fix this shortly.
21:47	amalloy	perhaps you can. i don't know everything about common lisp, not by a long shot
21:47	mmarczyk	in a way that's cool, cause it means this is gonna be faster than it is now :-P
21:47	livingston	I'm trying to avoid the scanning, because the forms are arbitrary
21:47	dnolen	mmarczyk: not-nil? compiler macro in master.
21:48	livingston	so something like with/magic would have to disassemble the whole form and reassemble it if it found magic
21:48	mmarczyk	dnolen: thanks!
21:48	amalloy	mhm
21:50	livingston	but more importantly I would have to know all the types of magic that could be used. I guess I could have one flag and then dispatch on a second argument... ideally I want the users defining and using the expansions, without my code having to see them or know.
21:51	livingston	how frowned upon / stable is the read-eval #= macro?
21:52	amalloy	it's frowned upon, relatively stable, and not any more useful for your purposes
21:53	livingston	well it would crud things up but I could eventually get to a back-tick form that way
21:55	dnolen	mmarczyk: I looked more closely at PHM.java, I think we need something more general than not-nil?
21:56	kenneth	so with pmap, is there a way to only use the side-effects, not create a new collection?, if the function i map with returns nil?
21:56	dnolen	mmarczyk: I think a private != is called for here.
21:57	mmarczyk	dnolen: that would be great
21:57	mmarczyk	dnolen: coercive-not= ?
21:57	dnolen	mmarczyk: != is JS !=
21:57	dnolen	mmarczyk: so very dangerous.
21:57	dnolen	mmarczyk: but I think the only way to get PHM in CLJS fast.
21:58	mmarczyk	dnolen: right
21:58	mmarczyk	dnolen: I know I'm not planning to use it for any other purpose
21:58	dnolen	mmarczyk: I like that name, tedious and dangerous sounding, lets go w/ coercive-not=
21:58	mmarczyk	dnolen: cool
21:59	livingston	jkkramer: amalloy: do you know where I can find the timeline for 1.4? when might it be available?
21:59	amalloy	well, they're on the Nth beta, for some N
22:01	livingston	have you used it? stable?
22:01	dnolen	mmarczyk: done
22:01	mmarczyk	dnolen: great, I'll be switching to that
22:06	dnolen	mmarczyk: excellent.
22:20	livingston	this is as close as I've gotten to a splicing reader macro - and it's kinda ugly: https://gist.github.com/9dbbb5e1a9a796d93d99
22:20	kenneth	can you critique this script? i'm running it on a 20-line file, but the goal is to run it on a 140M line file
22:20	kenneth	https://gist.github.com/1253f5c5800672324e38
22:20	kenneth	i'm a clojure newbie, but tried to follow best practices
22:22	devn	why's it private? (the gist)
22:22	devn	the host/port?
22:23	Null-A	kenneth: (:uuid decoded) instead of (get decoded :uid)
22:23	Null-A	(in terms of style)
22:23	devn	i would also move the parens on 38 to the end of 37
22:24	kenneth	devn: oh my gists default to private, i don't care about the host / port, it's firewalled off
22:24	devn	i'd also move ; comments to hang off the end of a line instead of breaking up the fn
22:25	kenneth	Null-A: neat, is that shorthand syntax for accessing hash data?
22:25	livingston	kenneth: I don't think you need the do on line 27 it's an implicit do in the function body (although maybe that needs to be a try/catch if your db connection fails?
22:26	livingston	kenneth: the reader should probably be in a with-open also so that you're sure it gets cleaned up
22:26	Null-A	kenneth: Yah, keywords are actually functions and you can pass collections to them and they look themselves up in the collection
22:27	Null-A	you'll also want to learn about destructing syntax
22:28	Null-A	also that (do ) on 27 can just be removed.
22:29	Null-A	(->> file io/reader line-seq (pmap each-line) (map println))
22:30	livingston	that map println is ugly, but if it's what you want fine. I'd have each-line return something more useful or do it's own logging / printing if that's what you want
22:30	Null-A	yah and generally you should separate pure from impure functions
22:30	Null-A	but as a beginner you can postpone that
22:32	livingston	from a more nit-picky point of view, "each" implies that you are getting a list of things and you are going to do something to all of them, that function would be more appropriately named process-line or process-single-line or something...
22:33	kenneth	livingston: i was mostly doing the (map println) to force the lazy sequence to be evaluated, is there another way to do that that returns nil? that'd be ideal
22:34	Null-A	that actually doesn't force lazy sequences to be evaluated
22:34	Null-A	well it depends on what level we're talking about I guess
22:35	Null-A	in anycase, you probably want doall or dorun
22:35	Null-A	that forces evaluation
22:35	livingston	dorun doall will hold the head pointer and that might kill you dorun for side-effects
22:37	livingston	I made a suggestion for simplifying that last let, although potentially you need a dorun if you want to force the side effects
22:38	Null-A	kenneth: i recommend joy of clojure, it'll teach you all this stuff.
22:38	devn	kenneth: https://gist.github.com/1e4e397ffb267b737ef9
22:38	devn	i'd probably write something more like that FWIW
22:38	Null-A	devn: you wrote clarsec right?
22:39	devn	Null-A, no, just made it a little bit easier to read - https://github.com/mmikulicic/clarsec
22:40	kenneth	wow that looks a lot better
22:40	Null-A	devn: ah, cool. i wrote a java compiler with it, and man did the performance of clarsec suck :)
22:40	Null-A	still got the job done though.
22:41	Null-A	I believe some of the java files were taking 30 seconds just to parse
22:42	devn	kenneth: I think it's better to require :as than to use the ns-qualified/name. that can really make things difficult to read, but mainly i would say, extract more functions and data in general.
22:42	devn	kenneth: small bits are nice
22:42	devn	Null-A: :\ sorry about that
22:43	Null-A	hah, no worries, combinator parsers are inherently slower compared to LR1/LL1 parsing.
22:43	Null-A	i suspect all the lambdas being created were a source of bottleneck too
22:43	Null-A	not sure how fast clojure is at this
22:48	devn	kenneth: this is probably going a bit overboard, but here's another pass: https://gist.github.com/1e4e397ffb267b737ef9
22:49	devn	i like it more personally, but i think some people might be inclined to disagree with the make-connection fn
22:50	devn	kenneth: i also made the ()'s in the :import section of the import macro []s, and finally added an arg to import-file-to-db to make it a bit more flexible
22:54	kenneth	so, running this with `lein run` i get an exception: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: importer.core
22:54	kenneth	which i don't when i run it via leon repl
22:55	kenneth	this is my current code: https://gist.github.com/1253f5c5800672324e38
22:55	kenneth	refactored like devn suggested, plus a couple other changes
23:08	devn	pmap might not be your best bet FWIW
23:09	kenneth	devn: is there a way to say "i want to run 10 at a time"
23:09	devn	kenneth: as in 10 lines?
23:10	kenneth	essentially, run 10 threads at a time / process with a parallelism of 10
23:12	devn	kenneth: you could partition the file by 10 lines, and then (pmap (map process-line lines) line-group)
23:13	kenneth	ever seen something like this? Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading, starting at line 40, compiling:(importer/core.clj:45)
23:14	mmarczyk	dnolen: I've done some adjustments -- if branch reordering, use of coercive-not= -- and put them on a branch at https://github.com/michalmarczyk/clojurescript/tree/phm-wip-2
23:14	kenneth	devn: how would i partition the file?
23:15	mmarczyk	dnolen: unfortunately I think I'm going crazy, because currently all tests I run complete in about 2.5x the time they used to previously, regardless of which version I use (including the first all-in-one commit)
23:15	mmarczyk	no idea what's going on here :-/
23:16	devn	kenneth: (partition 10 lines-of-file-as-strings)
23:16	devn	,(partition 10 (range 100))
23:16	clojurebot	((0 1 2 3 4 ...) (10 11 12 13 14 ...) (20 21 22 23 24 ...) (30 31 32 33 34 ...) (40 41 42 43 44 ...) ...)
23:17	mmarczyk	at any rate, I'm closing in on a transient hash map implementation, which should be ready some time this weekend... I'm still hoping today, but Monday at worst, if time contraints prove overwhelming
23:18	devn	kenneth: the benefits of pmap go down if you aren't granular enough. there is overhead in managing futures, so it is usually better (from my understanding) to use pmap for expensive operations
23:19	devn	or to spend some time tuning how big the chunks should be to get the best hockey stick graph
23:20	devn	kenneth: finally, read this:
23:20	devn	,(use 'clojure.repl)
23:20	clojurebot	nil
23:20	devn	,(doc pmap)
23:20	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f coll & colls]); Like map, except f is applied in parallel. Semi-lazy in that the parallel computation stays ahead of the consumption, but doesn't realize the entire result unless required. Only useful for computationally intensive functions where the time of f dominates the coordination overhead."
23:20	devn	Note that last sentence.
23:20	devn	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/pmap
23:25	devn	kenneth: as the above link shows: when in doubt, use (time ...)
23:35	kenneth	hmm, i must have fucked up something here… https://gist.github.com/1253f5c5800672324e38
23:36	kenneth	trying to implement your partition idea, devn, in `read-parallel`
23:37	kenneth	when i run import-file, it evaluates to `nil` and doesn't print anything…