#clojure – 2012-03-29

2012-03-29

00:00	autodidakto	(TL;DR, get Clojure Programming and Programming Clojure 2nd when they come out within a month, then do Joy of Clojure)
00:00	mbriggs	yeah
00:00	mbriggs	i would agree with that
00:01	autodidakto	methodmissin: Oh! I know something you can have fun with -> https://github.com/ibdknox/live-cljs
00:02	autodidakto	cljs implementation of the game editor in "inventing on principle talk". git clone, and lein run it and open chrome
00:03	autodidakto	gotta run. was fun doodling the wednesday away in IRC :)
00:03	methodmissin	autodidakto, I love that talk! I'll check it out, thanks. For now, though, goodnight :)
00:03	muhoo	i made this thing, but it feels stupid to me: https://refheap.com/paste/1474
00:04	muhoo	sure, it works, but seems... ugly
00:04	muhoo	i have a feeling amalloy will show me how it could be done in one line :-)
00:08	brehaut	muhoo: how is num ever going to not be a seq?
00:09	muhoo	when it's nil
00:09	brehaut	huh. so it is
00:09	brehaut	muhoo: however, (first nil) is nil
00:09	brehaut	i think
00:09	brehaut	,(first nil)
00:10	clojurebot	nil
00:10	muhoo	oh, when it's a num
00:10	muhoo	,(first 1)
00:10	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
00:10	muhoo	see
00:10	muhoo	so in the recur, it's sent a num
00:10	muhoo	hmm, i guess i could send it [num] instead
00:11	brehaut	oh huh. i dont think ive ever recured on a vararg function
00:11	brehaut	stupid java varargs
00:11	technomancy	brehaut: recur with varargs is weird even without java's weirdness
00:12	brehaut	technomancy: maybe thats why ive never tried it ;)
00:13	muhoo	well weird is my middle name
00:13	muhoo	i tried it with the multiple arity form of defn, but it involved repeating code, which was even uglier
00:14	brehaut	muhoo: can you explain what this function does? (eg, inputs and outputs)
00:14	muhoo	oh, it just generates unique names
00:14	brehaut	(comp name gensym) ?
00:15	muhoo	so if i give it (gen-unique #{"fubar"} "fubar"), it gives me "fubar1"
00:15	muhoo	no, unique as in, the user gives it a username, that username is taken, it gives them "username1" instead
00:16	brehaut	oh right
00:16	muhoo	very pedestrian stuff :-)
00:16	brehaut	and your using varargs for a single optional argument?
00:17	muhoo	right
00:17	muhoo	is there a better way to have a single optional argument?
00:18	brehaut	i tend to do (fn f ([a b] (f a b ni)) ([a b c] …))
00:18	brehaut	(or some other sensible default in the n-1 args form)
00:19	muhoo	i like that approach. but when i tried it, i ended up with duplicated code in the [a b] and [a b c] bodies
00:19	brehaut	,(or nil 0)
00:19	clojurebot	0
00:19	muhoo	ooh, nice
00:19	brehaut	,(or 1 0)
00:19	clojurebot	1
00:19	brehaut	theres only two falsy values in clojure: nil and false
00:19	brehaut	muhoo: right, so just dont duplicate the code ;)
00:26	brehaut	,(re-pattern (str #"^" "foo" #"(\d*)$"))
00:26	clojurebot	#"^foo(\d*)$"
00:27	brehaut	,(map second (keep (partial re-find (re-pattern (str #"^" "foo" #"(\d*)$"))) ["a" "foo" "b" "foo23"]))
00:27	clojurebot	("" "23")
00:35	technomancy	aperiodic: do you remember who was in the rogue vim group for the swarm coding session?
00:35	technomancy	they said they were adapting the bootstrap script for vim
00:36	aperiodic	technomancy: no idea, unfortunately. i came in too late.
00:36	aperiodic	what does the bootstrap script do?
00:36	technomancy	just gets all the necessary dotfiles and keys set up on a fresh account
00:37	brehaut	muhoo: https://refheap.com/paste/1477
00:37	Lajla	technomancy,
00:38	brehaut	muhoo: its still a bit larger than it needs to be, but at least its a bit more declarative
00:38	Lajla	What's with the (symbol "string whose characters do not make up a valid symbol") stuff
00:38	muhoo	brehaut: now i have two problems :-)
00:38	brehaut	muhoo: (and i dont think it covers the case of the name not being in the set)
00:39	muhoo	it's very cool though, thanks
00:39	brehaut	im sure someone could come up with a cleaner way to do the keep and then map
00:42	brehaut	muhoo: infact https://refheap.com/paste/1478
00:43	muhoo	now it's shorter than mine :-)
00:43	brehaut	less crashy too ;)
00:44	brehaut	(than my previous attempt0
00:44	brehaut	i need to sign up to this refheap thing so that i can edit these pastes
00:44	muhoo	and uses regexp instead of recur. interesting.
00:44	brehaut	ive got to cook dinner now
00:44	muhoo	thanks!
00:44	muhoo	brehaut: that's a whole new way of looking at it. i learned a lot, thanks
03:07	kral	morning
03:46	Raynes	$(Character/toUpper \é)
03:46	Raynes	&(Character/toUpper \é)
03:46	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: toUpper
03:46	Raynes	&(Character/toUpperCase \é)
03:46	lazybot	⇒ \É
04:31	_andrew_k	$(Character/toUpperCase \й)
04:31	_andrew_k	$(Character/toUpperCase \ъ)
04:32	_andrew_k	&(Character/toUpperCase \й)
04:32	lazybot	⇒ \Й
04:32	_andrew_k	&(Character/toUpperCase \ъ)
04:32	lazybot	⇒ \Ъ
04:33	_andrew_k	&(Character/toUpperCase \어)
04:33	lazybot	⇒ \어
04:35	progo	oh man
05:01	stirfoo	(nth (subvec [:??? 1 2] 1) -1) ; bug?
05:03	clgv	(nth (subvec [:??? 1 2] 1) -1)&
05:03	clgv	&(nth (subvec [:??? 1 2] 1) -1)
05:03	lazybot	⇒ :???
05:04	clgv	&(nth (subvec [:??? 1 2] 1) -10)
05:04	lazybot	java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException
05:04	clgv	&(nth (subvec [:??? 1 2] 1) -2)
05:04	lazybot	java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException
05:05	clgv	stirfoo: I'd vote for bug
05:05	stirfoo	I would say it's ok, but it's not consistent, you can access beyond the upper bound of the subvec. assoc gives funky behavior on subvec's too.
05:05	stirfoo	*can't access beyond the upper bound
05:06	alexyakushev	&(doc subvec)
05:06	lazybot	⇒ "([v start] [v start end]); Returns a persistent vector of the items in vector from start (inclusive) to end (exclusive). If end is not supplied, defaults to (count vector). This operation is O(1) and very fast, as the resulting vector shares structure with the original and no trimming is done."
05:06	clgv	&(nth (subvec [:? 1 2 :??] 1 2) 2)
05:06	lazybot	java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException
05:06	clgv	&(nth (subvec [:? 1 2 :??] 1 2) 1)
05:06	lazybot	java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException
05:06	clgv	&(nth (subvec [:? 1 2 :??] 1 3) 1)
05:06	lazybot	⇒ 2
05:06	clgv	&(nth (subvec [:? 1 2 :??] 1 3) 2)
05:06	lazybot	java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException
05:06	alexyakushev	clgv: "This operation is O(1) and very fast, as the resulting vector shares structure with the original and no trimming is done."
05:06	stirfoo	That's a hell of fast way to nice way to to a sub vector though.
05:06	stirfoo	what alexyakushev said ;)
05:07	clgv	alexyakushev: yeah but that -1 behaviour should also be avoidable in O(1) ;)
05:07	stirfoo	I'm not sure if it is a bug but I thought I'd mention it here where a few devs hang out.
05:07	clgv	stirfoo: if you can report it as a bug. It's definitely no feature ;)
05:07	alexyakushev	clgv: you mean to put additional warts on the input argument to nth?
05:08	clgv	alexyakushev: no on the class implementing the subvec
05:09	stirfoo	it's in the bounds test: if (start + i > end) throw...
05:09	stirfoo	it's only checking the upper bound
05:10	clgv	here: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/612fba9159c6986cf875f97e086337f24a5ea3d8/src/jvm/clojure/lang/APersistentVector.java#L524
05:10	clgv	stirfoo: report it if you can. btw: can everyone create a clojure jira account for reporting?
05:11	stirfoo	clgv: I have no idea, I looked into before on another bug but gave up.
05:11	clgv	stirfoo: well there is still the google group
05:12	stirfoo	the dev group? that's invite only, no?
05:12	clgv	stirfoo: I think the normal will be sufficient
05:12	stirfoo	ah
05:18	stirfoo	posted
05:25	GeoffSK	has anyone used clojure to talk to riak?
05:26	clgv	stirfoo: is it already visible on the group? I dont see it yet ;)
05:26	stirfoo	has to be approved
05:27	clgv	ah ok. that list is moderated?
05:27	stirfoo	I don't use groups much at all any more, might be because it's my first post there.
05:28	stirfoo	I'm sure someone will handle it if it's actaully a bug.
05:41	zamaterian	geoffeg, I have
05:41	zamaterian	GeoffSK, I have used riak
05:42	zamaterian	GeoffSK, https://github.com/reiddraper/sumo
05:42	GeoffSK	does it work with the latest riak client jar?
05:46	zamaterian	GeoffSK, it uses 1.0.3,
05:47	GeoffSK	yep, it looks (so far) easier then clj-riak
05:48	zamaterian	GeoffSK, reiddraper is a basho employee - so its maintained :-)
05:49	GeoffSK	oh, nice.
05:51	rdsr	how do I fetch "test-jars" with lein. By test-jars I mean the ones we specify as "<type>test-jar<type>" under the <dependency> tag in maven...
05:53	GeoffSK	thanks zamaterian - worked well.
05:56	lytton	Check your private channnels zamaterian :)
06:09	clgv	stirfoo: :)
06:13	_andrew_k	&(Long/toBinaryString 1)
06:13	lazybot	⇒ "1"
06:13	_andrew_k	&(Long/toBinaryString -1)
06:13	lazybot	⇒ "1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111"
06:16	lytton	ser=> (Long/toBinaryString -5)
06:16	lytton	"1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111011"
06:16	lytton	user=> (Long/toBinaryString -5)
06:36	clgv	_andrew_k: lytton: what is the issue?
06:38	lytton	my guess is that it was a ex in two's complement in binary form
06:51	zamaterian	lytton, how goes
06:55	_andrew_k	i wanted to check bits and it was closest repl i had )
07:03	zamaterian	frankvilhelmsen, enjoy my day off :-)
07:08	zamaterian	frankvilhelmsen, :-) i'm one my out in the sun
08:08	makkalot	Hi everyone, i'm reading some stuff about refs, what is not clear to me is the reader part of the model. I understand if you have shared data to modify you put it in a transaction,but what does reader part see ?
08:10	makkalot	For example suppose i have a mutual list and some threads modify it. My reader part prints the list to screen, what happens when i start printing it and in the middle of the print action some other thread changes it in some transaction ?
08:13	samaaron	makkalot: so the first thing to grok is that your vector is immutable
08:13	samaaron	so it can't be changed by any threads
08:15	makkalot	samaaron, so when i do (println myvect) there is no way someone to change it implicitly ? when i get its reference i got its snapshot ?
08:15	samaaron	exactly
08:15	samaaron	the only thing that changes is the ref - not the vector
08:16	samaaron	once you dereference a ref, you have an immutable value that will never change
08:16	samaaron	(unless of course you stored a mutable thing in there like a standard Java object)
08:17	makkalot	samaaron, ah it is clear now, thanks
08:20	samaaron	makkalot: have you seen this talk: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickeyhttp://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey
08:21	samaaron	if not, it's definitely worth watching
08:21	makkalot	samaaron, thanks will watch it
08:24	alexyakushev	Could anyone tell me how to call String.format function from Clojure?
08:24	alexyakushev	,(String/format "%s is bar" "foo")
08:24	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to [Ljava.lang.Object;>
08:24	alexyakushev	I know that I can use format, but I'm interested in getting around the particurlar set of issues
08:26	samaaron	alexyakushev: use #'format
08:26	samaaron	,(format "%d green bottles" 10)
08:26	clojurebot	"10 green bottles"
08:27	alexyakushev	samaaron: yes, I am aware of format
08:28	samaaron	so what's the issue?
08:28	alexyakushev	I'm interested whether there is any mechanism in Clojure to force the certain overloaded method to be called
08:28	samaaron	arity
08:28	alexyakushev	And if the arity is the same for both?
08:29	alexyakushev	take a look at the two definitions so you see what I'm talking about:
08:29	alexyakushev	static String format(Locale l, String format, Object... args)
08:29	samaaron	can you have two methods in Java with the same arity and different signatures?
08:29	alexyakushev	static String format(String format, Object... args)
08:29	samaaron	so, they have different arities
08:30	samaaron	the first takes a Local, a String and an Array
08:30	samaaron	the second takes a String and an Array
08:30	alexyakushev	Well, not actually. They both have variadic arities
08:32	samaaron	alexyakushev: that's probably only in the Java syntax, not the JVM semantics
08:33	samaaron	just take a look at the implementation of #'format and you'll see what I mean
08:33	samaaron	:-)
08:34	samaaron	Rick Ceme!
08:37	samaaron	Sid Eriss!
08:37	samaaron	Due Yjim!
08:38	alexyakushev	samaaron: Thank you. Type hints are the answer, I supposed something like that
08:38	alexyakushev	But...
08:38	alexyakushev	,(let [^String formstr "%s is bar"] (String/format formstr "foo"))
08:38	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to [Ljava.lang.Object;>
08:39	samaaron	,(String/format "%d green bottles" (to-array [10]))
08:39	clojurebot	"10 green bottles"
08:40	samaaron	it's not a type hint thing
08:40	alexyakushev	ah, the to-array thing
08:40	samaaron	the method signature is String, Array
08:40	samaaron	at least from the Clojure side
08:41	alexyakushev	Thanks again for help
08:41	alexyakushev	Sorry, my bad
08:41	fdaoud	Aron Sama!
08:43	samaaron	fdaoud: your vowels and consonants aren't evenly distributed
08:43	samaaron	Da Oudf!
08:44	fdaoud	:-)
08:44	samaaron	alexyakushev: you're very welcome :-)
08:44	fdaoud	,(sort "fdaoud")
08:44	clojurebot	(\a \d \d \f \o ...)
08:45	fdaoud	,(apply str (sort "fdaoud"))
08:45	clojurebot	"addfou"
08:45	samaaron	:-)
08:45	fdaoud	,(apply str (sort "samaaron"))
08:45	clojurebot	"aaamnors"
08:45	ssideris_	almost "add foo"
08:45	samaaron	Da Food!
08:45	fdaoud	ssideris_: yeh :D
08:45	jimduey	samaaron: How goes The Reasoned Schemer?
08:46	samaaron	jimduey: I'm only on page 20
08:46	samaaron	but it's been amazing so far
08:46	fdaoud	ah I still have to read the Seasoned
08:46	samaaron	jimduey: dnolen pointed me to your recent blog post - looks like crazy cool work
08:46	jimduey	Thanks.
08:47	fdaoud	this one? http://www.clojure.net/2012/03/24/Continuation-monad/
08:47	jimduey	TRS is pretty mind bending. I couldn't understand it until I actually implemented it.
08:47	jimduey	fdaoud: The next one.
08:47	samaaron	I must say, I still haven't managed to get my head around monads
08:48	samaaron	That "aha" moment is waiting for me in the future
08:48	jimduey	samaaron: Feel free to ping me if you're stuck on anything in particular.
08:48	fdaoud	jimduey: I see, thanks.
08:48	ssideris_	my main question about monads is: what's the benefit?
08:48	samaaron	jimduey: that might be helpful - I'll try working through your posts again
08:49	jimduey	Once you get the "aha" you'll be like "Is that all there is?" :)
08:49	samaaron	ssideris_: from what I can perceive, making code more readable for DSLs is a big benefit in Clojure
08:49	fdaoud	jimduey: so far almost everything I've read that you have written has made my brain hurt.
08:50	jimduey	ssideris_: Because they're cool! Actually, my last post tells how thinking in DSL's helped me make core.logic multi-threaded.
08:50	samaaron	Also, jimduey's latest post implied that monads helped him reason about something super complex
08:50	sthuebner	a friend told me, Clojure is not the right language to learn Monads. Haskells types would help the beginner to understand easier, what Monads are.
08:50	jimduey	fdaoud: :) That was how I felt when I was trying to get a handle on monads the first time.
08:51	jimduey	sthuebner: Probably true. But I didn't want to have to learn the Haskell syntax, so I learned just enough to read papers.
08:51	fdaoud	jimduey: right. I'm still trying to "get" monads. I know there is something very cool in there, but I haven't "aha"'d yet.
08:51	ssideris_	ok, thanks. I started reading about monads, but I couldn't see the motivation (the motivation for making my brain hurt, as fdaoud mentioned)
08:51	ferd	sorry to interrupt the monad philosophy talk... Anybody managed to make Cobertura (code-coverage tool) work with Clojure?
08:52	sthuebner	yeah, learning Haskell would too much, I think, just to get my head around Monads
08:52	ssideris_	jimduey: in fact, I was reading your blog posts last night
08:53	ferd	jimduey: I'm feel I'm getting closer to the "aha" moment thanks to your posts
08:53	bulters	`w
08:53	jimduey	ferd: Good to hear.
08:53	bulters	whu, there goes my lurking
08:53	ssideris_	thanks, they're great, but it's a very tricky subject anyway
08:54	fdaoud	jimduey: Ideally I need to see a piece of code in its "before" state, probably something with an ugly bunch of if's and so on, and then in its "after" state, all cleaned up and much nicer looking thanks to monads.
08:54	jimduey	ssideris_: Let me know if you need a hand getting over a particular hump.
08:55	jimduey	fdaoud: That's kind of what I was trying to do in showing how DSL's can often be written easily using monads.
08:55	ssideris_	jimduey: thanks, much appreciated
08:55	samaaron	jimduey: sorry to be an apostrophe-fiend but it's DSLs not DSL's :-)
08:56	jimduey	To me, the core.logic fork/join work was pretty compelling.
08:56	samaaron	although i understand it's me that should stop whincing with misplaced apostrophes rather than people misplacing them
08:56	jimduey	samaaron: :) I'll correct my usage immediately.
08:57	samaaron	unless you're talking about the properties of a specific DSL, then it's this DSL's properties
08:57	jimduey	So you can save your whincing for other things.
08:57	samaaron	:-)
08:57	fdaoud	samaaron: I understand how you feel. Its something that let's me get upset sometimes as well ;)
08:57	samaaron	haha - you just did it too!
08:58	samaaron	it's lets not let's
08:58	samaaron	:-)
08:58	fdaoud	um, both were on purpose :)
08:58	samaaron	argh!
08:58	samaaron	Da Food!
08:59	samaaron	Da Foud!
08:59	fdaoud	the Its was wrong too
08:59	samaaron	yeah, i noticed on a re-look
08:59	samaaron	it always got me when people were talking about Rails
08:59	ssideris_	samaaron: there is something way more annoying
09:00	fdaoud	don't "loose" your mind over it-- there's another mistake that keeps coming up.
09:00	[[ssideris]	<- this
09:01	fdaoud	samaaron: don't "loose" your mind over it-- there's another mistake that keeps coming up.
09:01	samaaron	haha, i just this moment got some recruitment spam:
09:01	samaaron	"I have a position in Central London that I think may interest you. It would be heading up a team of RoR Developer’s with the view..."
09:01	fdaoud	haha
09:02	fdaoud	let's the good time rolls!
09:02	samaaron	:-)
09:24	tacoman	I installed leiningen via the bootstrap script on Ubuntu 11.10, but I'm getting a "could not find the main class: clojure.main" error on attempts to run lein swank (full trace at http://pastebin.com/DSiUxdS9); is it not finding Clojure itself? I have 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3 all installed
09:25	tacoman	1.1 and 1.2 through the package manager, 1.3 by downloading it and placing it where it would go if it had been installed via package manager (not the best approach I now realize, but this install only has another month to live anyway)
09:36	alexyakushev	Do you have swank plugin installed?
09:36	alexyakushev	z
11:10	lynaghk`	ping: jonasen
11:21	jonasen	lynaghk`: yes?
11:22	lynaghk`	jonasen: what's the story with the new rules format?
11:23	jonasen	what do you mean? If we're going to use it in kibit?
11:23	lynaghk`	jonasen: do you think that will be integrated into kibit? What needs to be done before that can happen, and what (if anything) would you like my help on?
11:23	jonasen	does it do what you want?
11:23	lynaghk`	Yes, I think it's the most general solution that's appropriate for Kibit
11:24	lynaghk`	since you can throw around anything that'll work with core.logic; not just forms that can be unified-with.
11:24	jonasen	I think so too. I've been working on some macros to get the rules to look nicer...
11:25	lynaghk`	jonasen: ok, great. I was thinking about doing the same thing.
11:26	jonasen	lynaghk`: I'd be very interested in what you could come up with.
11:26	lynaghk`	jonasen: for basic matching what is the most appropriate core.logic goal that I should be using? E.g., to match (symbol ?x . ?rest) you'd expand into...matche?
11:27	lynaghk`	jonasen: I'll give it a shot this weekend; I'm actually sitting down to start porting big pieces of C2 to "cljx" this morning.
11:28	jonasen	lynaghk`: I saw you struggled with metadata and core.logic
11:28	lynaghk`	jonasen: but won = )
11:28	jonasen	I think the struggle continues with clojure.walk :(
11:28	lynaghk`	that it was silently eating metadata didn't help build my learning-logic-programming confidence though.
11:29	lynaghk`	jonasen: ohhhh. I'm only dealing with toplevel forms right now, but I wouldn't be surprised if core.walk was using some fn that didn't preserve metadata.
11:30	jonasen	lynaghk`: But if it turns out to be a problem we can always write our own prewalk. It's just a few lines anyway
11:32	lynaghk`	jonasen: yep. Okay, well I'm going to dig into translating C2, which is a decently sized codebase. That should inform any more modifications to kibit (which I don't anticipate) and the kind of rules that could use tidying up via macros.
11:34	jonasen	I think you can count on the new rule system. I'll include it in master when I've got some macros I'm happy with, but it should alway be possible to fall back on "raw" rules.
11:36	lynaghk`	jonasen: okay, rad. Have a great day.
12:35	dnolen	CLJS PersistentVectors are looking good
12:36	bobzhang1988	hi all, just read the source, what does fn* mean? I googled, but found nothing
12:37	jimduey	dnolen: Realized last night how I could aggregate fork/join tasks to reduce the overhead in core.logic.
12:38	dnolen	jimduey: excellent! I was pondering that myself today :)
12:38	dnolen	bobzhang1988: it's a special form - the primitive function constructor
12:39	bobzhang1988	dnolen: can you give me a link? Yes, I guess it's a special form
12:39	jimduey	Pretty simple really, just don't fork at every level of the search tree. Only fork every other, every third or somethig.
12:39	jimduey	Also, don't fork on every clause in a conde. Group them in pairs or triples.
12:39	dnolen	jimduey: have you given this a go yet?
12:40	jimduey	Nah, I've kind of moved on to something else. Looking at arrows and also writing a java bytecode->x86 compiler in Clojure.
12:40	dnolen	jimduey: nice :)
12:41	jimduey	And maybe a state machine DSL for writing distributed apps sparked by this: http://blog.incubaid.com/2012/03/28/the-game-of-distributed-systems-programming-which-level-are-you/
12:41	jimduey	Overwhelmed by too many interesting things to work on. :)
12:43	dnolen	jimduey: definitely. Thanks for doing the the fork-join core.logic - definitely a good starting point for taking it further.
12:46	jimduey	Another interesting thing to look at would be distributing core.logic programs over a cluster. Should be pretty easy to do.
12:47	jimduey	Then you could have a database sharded and do some cool queries, I think. For example.
12:47	dnolen	jimduey: definitely! I also like the generality of your solution. There's talk of task parallelism in the browser - would be easy to make your mods work in CLJS if/when that happens.
12:48	jimduey	Yeah, that would be cool. In the back of my mind I'm curious if I didn't miss something that makes the whole approach unusable. I'm too close to the code now to see it if there was.
12:48	dnolen	jimduey: how do you mean?
12:49	jimduey	Don't know. It's those dang unknowns that bite you. :)
12:49	dnolen	jimduey: you said most of the tests pass right? :)
12:49	jimduey	Yeah. :) So I'm not too worried about it.
12:59	dsabanin	hi guys
12:59	dsabanin	I have a possibly stupid java+clojure question
12:59	dsabanin	I never used java for anything real
13:00	dsabanin	my problem is: I call a factory and get back an instance of the Blah class. That class is a subclass of an abstract class Meh (Blah extends Meh). However, instance of class Blah is missing the methods from class Meh
13:01	dsabanin	I'm using highly popular java library so I think there's something wrong with my code or I'm doing clojure/java interop incorrectly
13:02	fdaoud	dsabanin: which library, if you may tell?
13:02	dsabanin	svnkit.com
13:03	fdaoud	dsabanin: so how are you trying to invoke a method on a Blah object?
13:05	dsabanin	here's some code: http://pastie.org/3692894
13:05	dsabanin	actually, that's my whole code :)
13:05	dnolen	nice, CLJS PersistentVectors are nearly 100X faster to use then Vector
13:06	TimMc	than which Vector? Java's Vector?
13:06	TimMc	the old CLJS impl?
13:07	dnolen	TimMc: old CLJS impl
13:07	TimMc	(I guess that's the only one it makes sense to compare against...)
13:08	fdaoud	dsabanin: it looks like it's the other way around. You're getting a Meh class back and are trying to call a method only defined in Blah.
13:09	dsabanin	fdaoud, but if "FSRepository extends SVNRepository", that means that FSRepository should have SVNRepository's methods, right?
13:10	sattvik	dsabanin: Actually, I think it's just a matter of the arguments being wrong…
13:10	dsabanin	I checked the list of methods on the FSRepository instance I get, and it's missing "log" method at all
13:10	dsabanin	it has logImpl (which is used in log method implementation in SVNRepository)
13:11	dsabanin	sattvik, or are you talking about some other arguments?
13:11	fdaoud	dsabanin: that's right. but SVNRepository does not have a log method. And, from what I can tell from the Javadocs, it doesn't look like FSRepository has a log method, either. Where do you see this log method?
13:11	dsabanin	I'm looking here http://svn.svnkit.com/repos/svnkit/tags/1.3.7/svnkit/src/main/java/org/tmatesoft/svn/core/io/SVNRepository.java
13:11	dsabanin	search by "public long log"
13:12	dsabanin	also here: http://svnkit.com/javadoc/org/tmatesoft/svn/core/io/SVNRepository.html#log(java.lang.String[],%20java.util.Collection,%20long,%20long,%20boolean,%20boolean)
13:13	dsabanin	and I checked the source java code for the version of svnkit I'm using, and it has that method too
13:14	fdaoud	dsabanin: if you don't see the log method by inspection at runtime, maybe it's a classpath issue? you have a different version on the classpath?
13:15	dsabanin	I use leiningen, and I see jar with proper version in the lib/
13:16	dsabanin	I don't use any custom classpaths (don't know how yet :)
13:16	technomancy	best to keep it that way
13:16	sattvik	dsabanin: Have you tried into-arry instead of to-array. The latter gets an Object[], not a String[].
13:16	gtrak	cemerick, what is this I hear about emacs-ifying eclipse?
13:17	cemerick	gtrak: just noodling on some things
13:17	dsabanin	sattvik, you did it!!
13:17	dsabanin	thank you :)
13:17	fdaoud	dsabanin: just trying to think of what it could possibly be,the problem.. probably sattvik is right, it has to do with types of args
13:18	dsabanin	so is it possible to not see the method in the list and yet the method will still be there?
13:18	dsabanin	does it not show you the methods of ancestors?
13:18	sattvik	dsabanin: No problem.
13:18	gtrak	cemerick, it sure sounds really exciting :-)
13:18	gtrak	I use the emacs+ plugin myself for java work
13:22	dsabanin	fdaoud, thanks for your help too!
13:23	fdaoud	dsabanin: you're very welcome
13:25	dnolen	CLJS PersistentVectors have landed, https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/e615f4cd326e7c608050272c64c4dfaff9a34689
13:26	RickInGA	very cool
13:27	ibdknox	dnolen: what were the numbers on that?
13:27	dnolen	ibdknox: insanely faster all around, http://jsperf.com/persistentvector-norecur-js/11
13:27	dnolen	ibdknox: those tiny bars are Vector
13:28	ibdknox	nice! :D
13:29	dnolen	ibdknox: notice how fast the handwritten PersistentVector.js is on Chrome, something to look forward to when we get more compiler optimizations in :D
13:30	ibdknox	dnolen: yeah, what a big difference :) definitely room for awesomeness there.
13:30	dnolen	ibdknox: I think in 6-7 months we can look forward to all around good performance from CLJS.
13:31	dnolen	ibdknox: PersistentHashMap is another big one to do.
13:31	ibdknox	I like that outlook.
13:31	ibdknox	hehe
13:32	gfredericks	where's the hippest library with a -?>> macro?
13:32	ibdknox	core.incubator might have that one
13:33	gfredericks	ibdknox: looks like it does; thx
13:38	cemerick	gtrak: that's probably just keybindings though?
13:39	gtrak	cemerick, keybindings, and it does M-x stuff as well, but not the full experience of course
13:39	cemerick	right; I'm not concerned with UI
13:39	cemerick	IMO, that's solidly part of "the rest" of emacs :-)
13:40	gtrak	so, like an emacs backend for eclipse? could you hook up emacs to it?
13:40	cemerick	It's far more important to be able to interactively extend and modify the environment from userland, and do it in Clojure
13:40	cemerick	no, no unholy unions ;-)
13:41	gtrak	neat though, I suppose if you're writing clojure you may be in emacs anyway, so there's that :-)
13:41	gtrak	repl-driven java refactoring?
13:43	cemerick	I'm never in emacs; I was talking more about adding the easy runtime-modifiability of emacs to eclipse / counterclockwise.
13:43	gtrak	very cool
13:43	jimduey	I would love an editor I could program in Clojure that had VIM keybindings and a repl that understood more than just text.
13:44	Iceland_jack	jimduey: viper?
13:44	jimduey	Bonus points if it ran in a browser and multiple people could connect to the same session.
13:44	Iceland_jack	Editor in a browser?
13:44	cemerick	jimduey: vimclipse + ccw + future magic sauce, perhaps.
13:44	Iceland_jack	You can use one of many terminal multiplexers that support shared sessions
13:44	jimduey	Iceland_jack: I might have to look at viper in the future.
13:45	jimduey	cemerick: yet another thing on my todo list. :)
13:45	Iceland_jack	I believe Emacs offers some multi-user support but I just use GNU Screen
13:45	cemerick	bah, it's eclim, not vimclipse :-P
13:45	jimduey	Iceland_jack: Yeah, I've used tmux and emacs to great effect when pairing.
13:46	technomancy	multi-user emacs doesn't work unless you have nearly zero latency
13:46	technomancy	concurrency =(
13:46	gtrak	ideally, you would want to share buffers but not keyboard control, right?
13:46	Iceland_jack	gtrak: yes
13:46	cemerick	jimduey: BTW, I really appreciate the work you've been doing with monads, as well as the f/j core.logic stuff.
13:46	Iceland_jack	create an Emacs server, connect to it using two Emacs clients from different screen sessions
13:47	jimduey	cemerick: thanks. It's been fun to have something to talk about.
13:47	ibdknox	jimduey: GSOC might start to get you exactly that this summer
13:47	RickInGA	technomancy: you talked about emacs and vim for swarm coding. do you think it is feasable to do swarm coding with eclipse?
13:47	jimduey	ibdknox: Cool!
13:47	technomancy	RickInGA: if you have a very fast local network and/or a high tolerance for latency, maybe
13:48	RickInGA	technomancy: translation, don't count on it :)
13:48	TimMc	I've seen multi-user Eclipse.
13:48	TimMc	It communicates over XMPP.
13:48	technomancy	well, I don't think swarm-coding would work nearly as well if you had to install a bunch of stuff on every machine
13:49	technomancy	it works because all you need is a terminal emulator and an SSH client; otherwise you've got That Guy holding up the whole group because he's got the wrong version of something or other
13:50	technomancy	at least for a user group. maybe in other contexts (inside a company or during a workshop session where folks are prepped) it wouldn't be as big of a deal.
13:51	simard	I read in JoC that you shouldn't use clojure.lang.PersistentQueue accross threads, why ?
13:55	raek	simard: it works perfectly fine with multiple threads (since it's persistent), but there are more effecient ways of implementing work queues
13:55	simard	persistent == immutable ?
13:55	Bronsa	no
13:55	mk	simard: sort of, and a few other things
13:56	simard	so, no, and sort of :)
13:56	mk	like same-performance guarantees
13:56	Bronsa	well, it was a "not only" :)
13:56	gtrak	I thought persistent is just about performance
13:56	raek	simard: normally you'd use something like this for work queues: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/BlockingQueue.html
13:56	Bronsa	it means also that they do structural sharing
13:57	gtrak	ah, I suppose I was wrong, then it's redundant to say persistent immutable data structures as folks do
13:57	raek	my assumption was that persistent implies immutable
13:57	TimMc	it does
13:57	Bronsa	i guess so
13:58	mk	I guess it's just extra-immutable, in that the performance isn't supposed to change either
13:59	mk	wasn't there a structure in clojure that works as a blockingqueue?
13:59	eggsby	Hola #clojure, I had a quick question about load-file vs. (eval (read-string ..)). If I were to use the read-string method, Assuming what I'm reading is a clojure data structure, how would I read in more than one def from a file?
14:00	Bronsa	clojure.lang.PersistentQueue maybe?
14:00	ibdknox	eggsby: wrap it in (do .. )
14:00	simard	as for the BlockingQueue, why is it more efficient than PersistentQueue ?
14:01	eggsby	ibdknox: I'm new to clojure, I understand the do construct, but how would I loop over each def in the file?
14:02	ibdknox	you wouldn't have to if you did (eval (read-string (str "(do " some-str ")")))
14:02	ibdknox	you're turning it into one form that way
14:02	mk	simard: it's not immutable, but it's not broken when it comes to threading
14:03	mk	(is my guess)
14:03	raek	simard: you can't really compare their performance because they do different things
14:04	mk	I was thinking of something more like what seque uses?
14:04	eggsby	oh interesting ibdknox
14:04	raek	a BlockingQueue does thread synchronization (so that threads can wat for each other) and maintains state
14:05	eggsby	thank you, I will try that
14:05	raek	a persistent queue is stateless, so to have something that changes over time you need a reference primitive too
14:06	simard	Ok, I have two threads, I want to send immutable objects (say strings) between them (bidirectionaly), and asynchronously. What's the best data structure in that case ?
14:06	raek	maybe you could say that a persistent queue wrapped in an atom is comparable to a blocking queue
14:06	simard	raek: that's what I use at the moment
14:06	raek	but the atom lacks blocking features
14:06	mk	raek: well, it abstracts much of that away, since you can treat it as a simple function (since it blocks), and to add things to the queue is a lot like using an agent
14:07	simard	and I don't need to block.
14:07	mk	simard: could you explain the bidirectionality?
14:07	simard	so I guess a persistent queue wrapped in an atom is what I needed after all.
14:07	raek	simard: what do you want to do when you try to pop when the queue is empty?
14:07	simard	mk: well, I'll just use two queues.
14:08	simard	basically, one thread reads, the other writes, and I'll have two such queues, one each way.
14:08	mk	simard: are you talking about return values? do you want two server-like things?
14:08	simard	raek: go on doing something else, and peek later.
14:08	raek	I guess you could use both approaches
14:08	clojurebot	Excuse me?
14:09	raek	if any of the threads need to way for a value, then blocking queue is a better fit
14:09	simard	mk: hum no there would not be request/reply, but I guess it COULD happen sometimes (that would be an exception)
14:10	mk	simard: it might help if you give a bit of a broader picture
14:10	raek	or if you are thinking of implementing an infinite loop that polls for values
14:10	autodidakto	ibdknox: thanks for noir, btw. I'm messing with it now, trying to get my head around it (coming from a sinatra/padrino/rails perspective)
14:11	raek	the biggest difference between the approaches is how the reading end behaves, I think
14:11	simard	ok I have an opengl rendering loop (thread 1), and some clojure sandbox (thread 2). thread 1 sends commands to thread 2, thread 2 sends results back. Note that thread 1 could send events to thread 2 (that do not require a reply from thread 2).
14:12	simard	the opengl thread must not be blocked by a long operation of thread 2.
14:12	mk	do you mean that the sandboxT2 sends commands to the renderT1?
14:12	raek	what does thread 2 do while the queue is empty?
14:13	raek	you can also use thread pools through executors
14:13	mk	I'd guess that it renders more frames
14:13	simard	raek: sleep ?
14:13	raek	so it's blockgin, then?
14:14	ibdknox	autodidakto: you're quite welcome :)
14:14	raek	or do you alternate between pop and Thread/sleep?
14:14	simard	raek: hum actually no it doesn't sleep, it could do some other jobs.
14:14	eggsby	thank you ibdknox I was able to solve my problem :)
14:14	simard	but I guess the thread could be awoken by some message from that queue.
14:14	raek	re. executors: http://blog.raek.se/2011/01/24/executors-in-clojure/
14:15	fdaoud	ibdknox: so much for hiding from the fans ;)
14:15	ibdknox	srsly
14:15	ibdknox	haha
14:16	mk	simard: what does the sandbox do?
14:17	gtrak	anyone, any thoughts on what's useful to say about clojure(script) to normal js/ruby who haven't heard or considered clojure?
14:18	simard	basically the idea is to allow the player to script his own actions, and perform some tasks based on timers etc.
14:18	gtrak	normal js/ruby web dev guys*
14:19	simard	mk: you could, say (defn jump-twice [] (jump) (jump)) in the sandbox, then bind that function to a keypress. thread1 (UI/GL) would send keypress events to the sandbox, sandbox would reply asynchronously by sending two strings "jump" "jump".
14:19	gtrak	"it's a lisp on the jvm" is not persuasive :-)
14:19	mk	gtrak: you can recite the usual 4 things, which are immutability, lispyness, functions?, and... something else
14:20	lynaghk	gtrak: tell them Clojure is expressive and fun like Ruby, but without all of the magic. That should appeal to anyone who has had to go into a Rails project he/she didn't write.
14:20	gtrak	ah, yea
14:20	ibdknox	on the JS side, reasonable semantics
14:20	ibdknox	lol
14:20	mk	gtrak: one big pull might be that it's really set up for multi-processor computing
14:20	autodidakto	gtrak: as a way to convince them to check out clojure in general? or try to replace their ruby/js frameworks?
14:20	technomancy	"metaprogramming you can still understand next week"
14:20	lynaghk	technomancy: hells yes.
14:20	autodidakto	technomancy: lol. nice
14:20	fdaoud	no more "what the hell 'this' is this?"
14:20	Bronsa	lol
14:20	Wild_Cat	lynaghk: I wouldn't so much say "without the magic". I mean, macros are pretty magical.
14:21	gtrak	those guys don't really get shared memory, php/ruby/python is all about launching a process per your request
14:21	gtrak	so concurrency means 'add another box'
14:21	lynaghk	Wild_Cat: yes, but people in the community are wary of them much more than Ruby folks are wary, of, well, everything they do.
14:21	ibdknox	Wild_Cat: not really, they're just functions that take in a form and spit out a new one
14:22	Wild_Cat	gtrak: IMO the awesome thing about Clojure is that it's a Lisp with more syntax, which makes it saner, and it has kickass STM support.
14:22	ibdknox	I think the real argument is the level of abstraction you can achieve in Clojure
14:22	fdaoud	as RH put it, if you want syntactic sugar, clojure macros give you your own personal chocolate fudge machine!
14:22	mk	simard: I see. And both sides have other things to do when not waiting for the other side to do something?
14:23	Wild_Cat	ibdknox: you can also halt/resume form evaluation in macros, and rebind surrounding vars, which as a Python dev I find weird.
14:23	lynaghk	wild_cat: this is the best critique of ruby programming style I have ever seen: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/blog/2011/one-base-class-to-rule-them-all
14:23	simard	mk: the GL side, definitely, the sandbox side, yes, maybe.
14:23	Wild_Cat	lynaghk: note that I'm not defending Ruby programming style. I hate it because it appears to rely so much on monkeypatching.
14:24	simard	unless timers are dealt with from thread1 and sent as events to the sandbox
14:24	gtrak	well, the main issue I found is immutability, concurrency, lisp metaprogramming are both core motivations of clojure and totally unrelatable to those guys, the 'fun like ruby but less magic' is a great one though
14:24	simard	in which case the sandbox could be blocking
14:24	lynaghk	Wild_Cat: yeah, I hear you. I think I've still written more Ruby code than I have Clojure code at this point. You can probably bend Clojure to do terrible things too, but I love that the community is very much against that kind of thing.
14:24	fdaoud	aot straight JS, definitely that in ClojureScript I don't worry about JS weirdness lurking and just waiting to ruin my day.
14:24	mk	simard: on the gl side, you don't need to block. If you want to block on the sandbox side, you can have it block on a blockingqueue
14:24	Wild_Cat	lynaghk: and I agree with that paper, although Ruby isn't my thing much. I'm a hardcore Python guy currently learning Clojure (and liking it)
14:25	gtrak	Wild_Cat, python was my schtick before clojure, too, I haven't looked back really
14:25	ibdknox	gtrak: the old you write the language you write your program in is also interesting to those folks
14:25	lynaghk	Wild_Cat: glad to hear you're liking Clojure thus far.
14:25	fdaoud	Wild_Cat, gtrak: Django too?
14:25	Wild_Cat	gtrak: Python is kinda like my job, so... :p
14:25	Wild_Cat	fdaoud: no, Pyramid.
14:25	gtrak	i tried django to learn web dev, and got really bogged down :-)
14:25	mk	I've been wondering about opengl actually, because it's hard to map on to clojure's persistent collections...
14:26	autodidakto	Matz: "Some may say Ruby is a bad rip-off of Lisp or Smalltalk, and I admit that. But it is nicer to ordinary people." :)
14:26	Wild_Cat	fdaoud: although that's a recent development. I used to do embedded work with Python
14:26	gtrak	ibdknox, i think you typo'd there?
14:26	simard	mk: so basicaly, two queues, both blocking, t1->t2 and t2->t1. t2 blocks on t1->t2 and sends results on t2->t1, t1 peeks t2->t1 and never blocks on it.
14:26	ibdknox	left off the quotes
14:27	ibdknox	gtrak: the old "you write the language you write your program in" is also interesting to those folks
14:27	gtrak	ah, got it
14:27	eggsby	django is fun, pyramid is better
14:27	eggsby	:p
14:27	eggsby	I'm playing with a coworker using noir right now
14:27	Wild_Cat	Django is kind of a PITA if you're not using its ORM, which I strongly dislike.
14:27	mk	simard: one of them would be non-blocking (the one that gl reads). Presumably you'd use an atom for that
14:27	autodidakto	one last quote: "Ruby is the love child of Lisp and Smalltalk, raised by Perl the eccentric nanny"
14:27	fdaoud	just asking out of curiosity, because my publisher has a django book in the works now.
14:27	Wild_Cat	(plus, since I'm working with DynamoDB these days, I couldn't use Django's ORM even if I wanted to)
14:27	eggsby	Wild_Cat: it's not so different than sqlalchemy declarative, but.. ~wrong channel~
14:28	Wild_Cat	eggsby: fair enough, let's drop that :p
14:28	eggsby	So, what are peoples thoughts on enlive vs hiccup?
14:28	gtrak	fdaoud, I went to pycon to try to get better at all that stuff, including django, but my style is to understand things thoroughly, which is harder than it looks there
14:28	autodidakto	eggsby: coming from haml, both scare me.
14:29	eggsby	lol
14:29	ibdknox	hiccup is not far from haml
14:29	ibdknox	why does it scare you?
14:29	eggsby	Do you have a reason why you prefer hiccup over enlive ibdknox ?
14:29	mk	simard: does the sandbox simulate the environment?
14:29	technomancy	enlive is more elegant, hiccup is more straightforward.
14:29	ibdknox	enlive is probably the single most complicated library I've seen, which is somewhat ridiculous given what it does :)
14:30	autodidakto	ibdknox: going through the noir examples now... just feels really weird to see the html defined inline, i guess
14:30	ibdknox	I don't necessarily prefer hiccup to anything really.
14:30	eggsby	autodidakto: it makes sense if you just think of it in terms of the dom structure
14:30	eggsby	ah ibdknox sorry for the assumption :p
14:30	ibdknox	In talking to people these days, I usually list 3 solid solutions to templating:
14:30	eggsby	dom structure is just a tree, easy to represent in clojure
14:30	ibdknox	hiccup, comb (erb-like), and stencil (mustache)
14:31	icey	autodidakto: I felt the same way initially, but give it a go in a project or two… it ends up being really nice once you start thinking about your UI in terms of pieces that are disconnected from styling
14:31	icey	autodidakto: then use CSS to push stuff around on the page / style
14:31	mk	simard: it sounds like you're dealing with proper-object or actor (?) communication / message passing
14:31	autodidakto	icey: Thanks, I'll keep that in mind
14:31	technomancy	hiccup has a cooler namesake: http://tinyurl.com/y7ncrur
14:31	icey	autodidakto: being able to treat your markup like everything else in clojure (data) ends up being really powerful feeling
14:32	ibdknox	yeah, true composability is really nice. That coupled with the simplicity of hiccup are its main values
14:32	autodidakto	ibdknox: second-ing your enlive comment, i like how enlive is a templating language... and a web scraper!.... and a cold-press coffee brewer!
14:32	icey	ibdknox: btw, I'm checking out Korma for the first time today. It's nice, I like it :)
14:32	technomancy	from a tooling perspective, erb-like tools are a mess
14:32	fdaoud	icey: +1
14:33	technomancy	I tried to write Emacs support for ERB and had to abandon it; it is simply not worth the trouble.
14:33	ibdknox	technomancy: sure, but some people want them shrug
14:33	mk	"also makes chili and fries"
14:33	fdaoud	I hate writing an app and need to switch mindsets just because I'm working on the template part
14:33	technomancy	ibdknox: people want for loops too.
14:33	ibdknox	there are times when you need that level of complexity
14:33	technomancy	ibdknox: times when you don't have time to do it the right way, I guess
14:33	ferd	fdaoud: +1 ?! come on!... it's (inc %) here ;-)
14:33	autodidakto	icey: haha yeah, I was checking out noir, then korma, then live-cljs and i was like "hey wait this is that one guy in irc"
14:34	ibdknox	technomancy: haha :p
14:34	fdaoud	ferd: :)
14:34	ibdknox	icey: glad you like it :)
14:34	icey	autodidakto: afaik ibdknox is actually quadruplets who all happen to hack
14:34	ibdknox	technomancy: in any case, I think those three cover all the bases
14:34	fdaoud	git clone https://github.com/ibdknox/everything
14:35	autodidakto	fdaoud: about switching mindsets: that's how i got use to things in sinatra/rails... You program controller, you structure in html, you design in css...
14:35	ibdknox	lol
14:35	mk	shouldn't it be (inc! username)?
14:35	technomancy	ibdknox: I think stencil gets you the familiarity of looking erb-like without opening the door to doing stupid things you'll regret later.
14:35	fdaoud	{ibdnox,technomancy,weavejester,mmcgrana}
14:36	ibdknox	I think the place hiccup really shines is on the client
14:36	ibdknox	using hiccup (via crate) in CLJS is awesome
14:36	ibdknox	technomancy: I agree, it's my first suggestion for those looking to write html in html
14:36	technomancy	it's like having pure functions; it's not really about adding restrictions, it's about being able to offer guarantees about a function/template.
14:36	autodidakto	ibdknox: ahh, makes sense. one reason i've stayed around from client side javascript mvc stuff is the hideous templating/views..
14:37	ibdknox	yeah
14:37	ibdknox	they're terrible
14:37	autodidakto	not that i know what i'm talking about, but it all kind of looks like a hack the browser/javascript was never ment to do
14:37	autodidakto	*meant
14:38	autodidakto	cljs is a tempting promise of better days
14:38	fdaoud	autodidakto: yeah it gets a bit crazy. I'm mainly a Java guy and JSP just drives me nuts.
14:39	lynaghk	autodidakto: I feel the same way. I just do all of my dynamic templating with hiccup / C2.
14:40	lynaghk	Seeing all of the {{ }} in JS just makes me long for a better Clojure set literal synatax, anyway.
14:41	autodidakto	fdaoud: I don't know much about jsp. What is it that drives you nuts?
14:42	autodidakto	lynaghk: what's C2?
14:42	ibdknox	lynaghk: lol
14:42	lynaghk	autodidakto: http://keminglabs.com/c2/
14:43	lynaghk	ibdknox: (lil' kevin's first troll!)
14:43	ibdknox	haha, like I said, I think we should switch the syntax for maps ;)
14:43	fdaoud	autodidakto: essentially what I hinted at earlier, that you work with a solid full-featured language (Java,Clojure,whatever), then you get to the template side (which in Javaland usually means JSP) and then it's a whole different syntax, watered down features, and a ton of "oh but in JSP you can't do that.."
14:44	lynaghk	ibdknox: actually, I do all of my clojure programming with inline JSON literals = P
14:44	autodidakto	lynaghk: cool thanks
14:45	scriptor	hey guys, so I'm tinkering with a clojure->php thing right now
14:45	ibdknox	oh god
14:45	ibdknox	lol
14:45	ibdknox	that's scary :p
14:45	autodidakto	fdaoud: well said. It's like you leave the power and world of the language, and enter into a not-quite-right dsl-disconnect
14:45	scriptor	got a question on how you guys suggest how to tag whether an expression should be used as an expression or a statement
14:46	autodidakto	fdaoud: or at least that's how I feel when I do rails stuff
14:46	chouser	scriptor: are you trying to generate idiomatic php? or something that has clojure symantics?
14:46	scriptor	(for example, an if expression that's just by itself is compiled as a statement, one embedded in a function call needs to be an expression)
14:46	scriptor	chouser: clojure semantics, preferably
14:47	scriptor	at best the php should be readable, but doesn't have to be idiomatic
14:47	chouser	scriptor: ah. Well, the Clojure analyzer (but not the cljs one) figures this out
14:47	ibdknox	scriptor: are you starting from the ClojureScript ocmpiler?
14:47	scriptor	ibdknox: nope
14:47	scriptor	I looked through the cljs compiler a bit
14:47	simard	mk: sorry someone passed by my office, yes, I use actors
14:47	simard	mk: elsewhere in the app anyway
14:47	scriptor	it seems to package sexprs into...hashes? lemme check again
14:47	simard	not from clojure code right now, I was considering using queues instead
14:48	technomancy	I don't think it's possible to have a clojure implementation on a runtime that has mutable strings
14:48	hiredman	scriptor: it is easy, everything is an expression unless it is not the last expression in a do
14:48	simard	mk: the sandbox doesn't simulate anything, there is another (a third) thread for that running jbullet
14:48	technomancy	you would have to call seq on every string before you compare it for equality, which is just horrible
14:48	chouser	scriptor: The Clojure analyzer keeps track of "context", whether an expression is in return, expression, or statement position
14:48	scriptor	right, context
14:49	dnolen	chouser: I thought CLJS analyzer did that as well
14:49	technomancy	you would have to choose between broken equality semantics (in which case it's not really Clojure anymore) and losing host interop for strings.
14:49	scriptor	technomancy: as long as strings are never actually mutated, would there still be a problem?
14:49	chouser	dnolen: It may. I meant to say that I didn't think the cljs one did. I wasn't trying to claim knowledge there.
14:49	chouser	dnolen: and now that you mention it, I think I do recall that.
14:50	dnolen	chouser: k, it does :) I was deferring to you're generally deeper knowledge about these things :)
14:50	scriptor	ah, if other php code mutates the strong
14:50	scriptor	*string
14:50	chouser	dnolen: ha!
14:50	technomancy	scriptor: you simply cannot make the kind of guarantees you need
14:50	technomancy	I recommend reading http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html before you sink too much time into the project =)
14:50	mk	simard: hmm. Since you're sending keystrokes to the sandbox, if the sandbox is a single thread, and it might be busy, you might end up with something very unresponsive
14:50	technomancy	I've thought about this for elisp as a compilation target, and I can't see any way around the problem.
14:51	chouser	clojure deals with mutable platform things all the time that it just pretends are immutable.
14:51	chouser	it would be a shame if strings were in that category, but I think not a deal breaker.
14:51	scriptor	technomancy: so the issue is if, say, you call a function in some external code, pass it a string, and that function mutates the string?
14:51	dnolen	scriptor: just use the CLJS analyzer, it should be easy to modify ClojureScript to emit PHP, save yourself a lot of time.
14:51	scriptor	chouser: that's what I was thinking
14:51	fdaoud	autodidakto: I agree, and that's why I like hiccup
14:51	technomancy	,(= (into-array [0]) (into-array [0]))
14:51	clojurebot	false
14:51	technomancy	chouser: ^
14:52	chouser	hmm
14:52	chouser	that's an excellent point
14:52	dnolen	scriptor: a CLJS->PHP would be kind of awesome - all the work has pretty much been done for you in ClojureScript, it wouldn't even be difficult I think.
14:52	scriptor	dnolen: true, I'll have to look at it closer, but one issue is that js can do some things that you can't do in php
14:52	dnolen	scriptor: CLJS relies on lowest common denominator JS, what specifically are you thinking of?
14:53	scriptor	for example, if you want to compile a do block as an expression, it wraps the resulting code of that into: (function(){...})()
14:53	scriptor	with the result of the do block inside the function
14:53	fdaoud	chouser: because in person you are always right, so coming here keeps you honest? :D
14:53	simard	mk: yeah, there's a timeout in the sandbox, but of course the user could make it rather unresponsive if he wished to. Did you have something on your mind about that ?
14:54	chouser	fdaoud: I didn't say that. Not out loud.
14:54	fdaoud	chouser: ok. I didn't hear you say that, either.
14:54	technomancy	it bothers me because this is the argument I use against CLers who loudly proclaim how CL is so great because it can be made to do anything with macros
14:54	dnolen	scriptor: seems like that wouldn't be hard to work around.
14:54	technomancy	and it's a really good argument against CL
14:54	ibdknox	php has lambdas now
14:54	technomancy	but unfortunately it's also a really good argument against a bunch of otherwise-interesting runtimes
14:54	hiredman	you don't need lambdas
14:55	chouser	you could use non-host strings. :-P
14:55	pjstadig	technomancy: i don't get why mutable strings matters
14:55	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/php.lisp/blob/master/compiler.php
14:55	pjstadig	even immutable strings are compared char for char for equality
14:55	technomancy	pjstadig: because you can't define meaningful equality predicates against mutable objects
14:55	technomancy	,(= (into-array [0]) (into-array [0]))
14:55	clojurebot	false
14:56	technomancy	,(= (seq (into-array [0])) (seq (into-array [0]))) ; you have to seq it first
14:56	clojurebot	true
14:56	pjstadig	so
14:56	chouser	pjstadig: the problem is if two strings are mutable, you should always say they are unequal, even if they happen to have the same contents at any given moment
14:56	technomancy	pjstadig: you can implement it, but it's going to be very annoying to use in practice
14:57	chouser	but having strings always be unequal ruins their usefulness (I was going to say "value" haha) as map keys
14:57	scriptor	so in clojure equality for arrays is based on identity, not contents?
14:57	chouser	scriptor: exactly
14:57	pjstadig	i don't follow the argument
14:57	pjstadig	there are all kinds of mutable objects that are compared for equality all the time
14:57	chouser	for pretty much anything mutable, equality is based on identity
14:57	pjstadig	sure it isn't as nice as immutable objects
14:57	mk	simard: I think mostly I'm just trying to think through how I would end up doing this in clojure... the way gl handles state is ugly (if you want it to be efficient)
14:58	pjstadig	and you can argue that they should rightly be considered unequal (or at the least only equal at that moment)
14:58	pjstadig	but practically people compare mutable objects
14:58	scriptor	technomancy: so we only treat strings as if they were immutable, is the problem then that the strings can be mutated by outside code?
14:59	mk	simard: I guess there should just be the simulation code, which needs a dropbox for incoming keystrokes/input (though these could be converted into specific :right :left :jump keywords)
14:59	technomancy	pjstadig: right; the point is that clojure.core/= makes a certain set of guarantees, and if you want to compare the current value of two strings, you will have to use something else.
14:59	chouser	technomancy: what about a combination of a str= function, an immutable non-host string type, and not using host strings as map keys?
14:59	chouser	a bit of a mess, but maybe not too bad in practice?
14:59	scriptor	interop could be a pain
15:00	chouser	yeah. as would two different string types.
15:00	technomancy	chouser: yeah, the map keys issue is moot in elisp since you would be using symbols for that anyway. it might not be too horrid in practice; I don't know.
15:00	scriptor	yep, and PHP doesn't let you extend the string class in any meaningful way
15:00	chouser	maybe just str= and then use keywords not strings as map keys
15:01	technomancy	chouser: funnily enough, elisp case actually refuses to consider strings as equal, which I hated until I read the Baker paper.
15:02	dnolen	scriptor: nor does Java, Clojure implementation will need to work around those kinds of host details in various ways.
15:02	technomancy	anyway, everyone should read http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html and keep a copy on hand in case you are accosted by a CLer.
15:02	mk	simard: if you're not using the advanced gl stuff which caches collections on the gpu, then maybe the gl thread can just run on its own, and occasionally read the "worldstate" atom or whatever, and then render it
15:03	autodidakto	technomancy: Here's that link in Reability: http://www.readability.com/articles/nme17i9w :)
15:03	scriptor	technomancy: can you explain what the problem is with just treating strings as if they were immutable, interop?
15:03	mk	simard: (I'm just thinking out loud here - the way you seem to have it set up with a pair of atoms, or an atom+blockingqueue, will probably work out just fine)
15:03	dnolen	scriptor: CLJS is immutable by convention as well
15:03	technomancy	hmm; it could be possible to make strings in clojure-in-elisp read as symbols
15:03	chouser	oh I forgot js strings are mutable
15:04	scriptor	wait, they are?
15:04	dnolen	scriptor: anybody could take a CLJS PersistentVector and mess things up if they want to.
15:04	technomancy	what
15:04	dnolen	chouser: they are not
15:04	technomancy	ok, whew
15:04	technomancy	scriptor: the problem is that clojure.core/= makes a very specific set of guarantees; you either have to break those guarantees or always return false.
15:04	simard	mk: actually, the rendering (scala) and the simulation (java) both work at the moment and communicate with each other using actors (sending force application to objects) and locks (setting objects position by physics engine)
15:04	scriptor	any place where those guarantees are documented? :)
15:04	chouser	seriously, I need to keep my mouth shut. I wonder if there's something about today I can blame it on.
15:05	technomancy	scriptor: yeah, the paper I just linked to =)
15:05	technomancy	clojure.core/= is an implementation of egal
15:05	simard	mk: the sandbox (clojure) is something else, that must communicate with the GL thread (same thread as UI)
15:05	scriptor	ah, got it
15:05	mk	simard: I see - though I thought that the sandbox was a sort of secondary simulation
15:06	simard	mk: no, however if the user wants to do some calculation there (say AI), he could.
15:06	dnolen	chouser: haha, no way :) easy to forget what can be changed in a language as loose as JS
15:08	technomancy	the baker paper on equality will help you appreciate the huge mountain of crap that Clojure neatly lets you totally avoid.
15:08	technomancy	it's up there with Out of the Tarpit IMO
15:08	scriptor	so, even if strings are never actually mutated, it'll break the set of guarantees core/= has?
15:09	autodidakto	technomancy: "crap clojure neatly lets you totally avoid" makes me think of design patterns
15:09	chouser	scriptor: yes
15:09	Wild_Cat	technomancy: what paper is that, I'm afraid to ask?
15:09	technomancy	clojurebot: equal rights for functional objects
15:09	clojurebot	Equal Rights for Functional Objects is Baker's paper on equality and why it's impossible to define sensible equality in the presence of mutable data structures: http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
15:09	technomancy	Wild_Cat: there ya go
15:10	autodidakto	clojurebot: Out of the Tarpit
15:10	clojurebot	Out of the Tarpit is a short, accessible paper on FP and reducing complexity by identifying and minimising state: http://ben.moseley.name/frp/paper-v1_01.pdf
15:10	technomancy	clojurebot: botsnack
15:10	clojurebot	Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
15:10	Wild_Cat	technomancy: it's appropriate to break out the "mother of god" memeface.
15:10	chouser	scriptor: imagine (let [a {"foo" "bar"}] (baz a) (get a "foo")). I clojure, I promise that returns "bar". I don't have to look at baz
15:10	autodidakto	technomancy: the link for out of the tarpit is way behind wrong
15:11	technomancy	clojurebot: forget Out of the Tarpit \|is\| a short, accessible paper on FP and reducing complexity by identifying and minimising state: http://ben.moseley.name/frp/paper-v1_01.pdf
15:11	clojurebot	I forgot that Out of the Tarpit is a short, accessible paper on FP and reducing complexity by identifying and minimising state: http://ben.moseley.name/frp/paper-v1_01.pdf
15:12	gtrak	aikido is pretty awesome though
15:12	chouser	scriptor: but if strings are mutable and = compares their contents, then the definition of baz could reach into a and change the contents of the the string "foo" or "baz"
15:12	technomancy	clojurebot: Out of the Tarpit is a short, accessible paper on FP and reducing complexity by identifying and minimising state: http://web.mac.com/ben_moseley/frp/paper-v1_01.pdf
15:12	clojurebot	Ok.
15:12	technomancy	autodidakto: thanks
15:12	autodidakto	gtrak: hehe
15:12	autodidakto	technomancy: no prob
15:13	chouser	scriptor: if "foo" changes, the map is then completely broken with hashs leading to the wrong branches of the tree.
15:13	gtrak	immutability, use your mutable-state's energy against itself in a circle-like motion
15:13	chouser	just an example of what happens when you break the guarantees provided by =
15:14	technomancy	"even if strings are never actually mutated, it'll break the set of guarantees core/= has?" is a bit like "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it make a sound?"
15:14	technomancy	if you can guarantee that strings are never mutated, then you don't have mutable strings anymore =)
15:16	mk	simard: I see - I don't think I'll be able to come up with something better than suggesting blockingqueue for cases when the thread has nothing else to do (ie, it sleeps then polls), and agent/persistentqueue communication otherwise
15:17	pjstadig	look i'm not saying that mutable strings are better than immutable strings
15:17	pjstadig	i'm just saying it's not impossible to use mutable strings
15:17	pjstadig	it's just very, very precarious and fragile
15:17	simard	mk: well thanks for your time, the discussion itself was worth it :)
15:18	pjstadig	the java.util.Map javadoc gives you a stern warning about using mutable objects as keys, because it most definitely can be disastrous if a key changes after being put into a map
15:18	gtrak	that's what you have to do in C, but they're already ok with precarious/fragile
15:18	mk	simard: :)
15:18	technomancy	pjstadig: yeah, it's just a question of whether the hassle would be enough to render the runtime impractical
15:19	HaakonKL	Why would you want to use mutable keys in the first place?
15:19	technomancy	certainly it's possible
15:21	amalloy	HaakonKL: presumably because you're in a language where everything is mutable by default, and it's just easiest
15:21	sritchie	technomancy: trying out leiningen 2, finally!
15:21	sritchie	For some reason I'm getting no output from lein2 deps
15:22	sritchie	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: array element type mismatch
15:22	sritchie	lein2 compile is silent as well, strange
15:22	technomancy	no output is what you should expect from lein deps, right. where are you getting the exception?
15:25	scriptor	technomancy: right, so even though php's strings may be implemted to be mutable, clojure semantics would still hold if you could guarantee that it is never actually mutated
15:25	scriptor	*they are never
15:25	cemerick	interesting bits on the ML today…dum de dum…trademark law?! o.0
15:25	dnolen	scriptor: hmm can't you copy PHP strings?
15:25	autodidakto	ibdknox: It's huge shock to the system to be reading the html tutorial on the beautiful noir site, then clicking on the "StringTemplate" link.
15:25	technomancy	scriptor: if you could guarantee that it's never mutated then it's immutable.
15:25	scriptor	dnolen: I think it uses copy-on-write, so probably
15:25	ibdknox	autodidakto: lol
15:26	scriptor	technomancy: yes! that's what I was thinking
15:26	scriptor	now to guarantee that in a language so friendly to things like this
15:26	technomancy	but you can't guarantee that without rewriting the interpreter
15:27	sritchie	technomancy: exception's on lein swank --
15:27	sritchie	technomancy: lein2 deps doesn't populate a lib folder either, though
15:27	technomancy	sritchie: yes, that's by design
15:27	scriptor	off the top of my head I can't think of too many functions that change a string as a side-effect
15:27	technomancy	the lib/ dir was an accident of history
15:27	emezeske	technomancy: Would it not be sufficient (although perhaps inefficient) to implement an immutable string class in the host language, and use that?
15:27	sritchie	ah, interesting
15:27	technomancy	scriptor: that's a far cry from a guarantee though
15:27	sritchie	lein2 repl is throwing the exception
15:27	scriptor	technomancy: true, but a start
15:28	technomancy	emezeske: depends on the runtime I guess
15:28	technomancy	you can never entirely avoid hosty strings
15:29	sritchie	technomancy: here's what I've got: https://gist.github.com/2242587
15:29	sritchie	that's my initial stab at conversion
15:29	technomancy	emezeske: "no wrapper classes" is very central to the design of Clojure
15:29	technomancy	basically you'd end up doing (into "" (hosty-function)) all over the place
15:30	technomancy	sritchie: there's currently a bug in :javac-options handling; lemme find the issue
15:30	technomancy	I think the workaround is easy
15:30	scriptor	yea, it wouldn't be worth it
15:30	sritchie	technomancy: fixed, it was my javac-options
15:30	sritchie	cool
15:30	technomancy	sritchie: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/450 for the record
15:31	emezeske	technomancy: Ahh, I see, that does make sense. You'd have to also make sure all the hosty-functions were wrapped so as to return immutable strings, which might not be tenable
15:32	scriptor	emezeske: yep, or have all string handlling functions call my-stringify in some way
15:32	emezeske	Yeah, that does get pretty ugly
15:33	scriptor	on the other hand, that's pretty much what I do with pharen's sequences
15:33	technomancy	not saying you shouldn't try it; just be mindful of the pitfalls
15:33	technomancy	even if it's a bit of a mess, it'll be much more pleasant than using PHP =)
15:33	cemerick	weavejester: Q: what was the rationale for lower-casing HTTP header names?
15:34	cemerick	eh, I withdraw the question. :-)
15:34	scriptor	it's easy with strings, since a lot of it boils down to first/rest
15:34	scriptor	*with seqs
15:34	ferd	technomancy: I'd like for slime's macroexpand to show me metadata (like when setting print-meta on the REPL). Is it possible?
15:36	ferd	technomancy: If it needs changes on swank-clojure, I can look into it (some pointers welcomed ;-))
15:38	Frozenlock	Hmm... lein asks me for javac.exe. Do I need to install another java package? (Development Kit?)
15:40	TimMc	JDK, not JRE
15:41	weavejester	cemerick: You'd have to ask Mark, but I suspect it was because HTTP headers are case insensitive, and keys in a map are case sensitive.
15:41	weavejester	cemerick: So you need some normalization, and lower-casing it probably the easiest.
15:43	cemerick	weavejester: Sure; I was mostly asking in frustration after not grokking why my (headers "Some-Header-Name") refused to work for a bit. :-)
15:44	Frozenlock	TimMc: Thanks, downloading now :)
15:46	samaaron	does lein handle plugin and support dirs in a special way?
15:47	weavejester	samaaron: What do you mean by plugin and support dirs?
15:48	samaaron	weavejester: i'm trying to figure out how the lein-cljsbuild plugin works
15:48	samaaron	it seems to have two internal 'projects' - one in a dir called plugin, and another in a dir called support
15:48	samaaron	when you do a `lein deps` lein seems to know to pull the deps for both
15:48	emezeske	samaaron: That's not handled by lein specially, they are literally two separate projects
15:49	ibdknox	samaaron: emezeske separated the primary library from the leiningen plugin
15:49	samaaron	so lein knows to look for subprojects?
15:49	emezeske	samaaron: 'lein deps' doesn't pull deps for both; it pulls only the plugin. Then, when the plugin executes, it uses eval-in-project, at which point the dependencies for that subproject are pulled.
15:49	samaaron	oh, interesting
15:50	emezeske	So technically the plugin/ doesn't depend on the support/, in it's project.clj file
15:51	emezeske	It's the subproject that the plugin creates that depends on it.
15:51	emezeske	BTW, I wouldn't use lein-cljsbuild as an example of how to do things -- I have no idea what I'm doing! ^_^
15:52	samaaron	emezeske: :-)
15:52	samaaron	emezeske: it just seems like magic to me
15:53	samaaron	in fact, most of lein seems like magic
15:53	samaaron	perhaps that's the point?
15:53	weavejester	samaaron: Lein's not that magical, honestly :)
15:53	weavejester	samaaron: The command "lein foo" just runs leiningen.foo/foo
15:53	samaaron	weavejester: oh, i'm sure - when you understand it thoroughly enough
15:54	Raynes	I can attest that there is very little magic in Leiningen.
15:54	samaaron	weavejester: yeah, i grok that simple usecase
15:54	weavejester	samaaron: And then the eval-in-project macro evaluates a Clojure form with all the project's dependencies
15:54	Raynes	It only looks like magic because Clojure is like magic.
15:54	weavejester	samaaron: That's really all you need to know
15:55	weavejester	samaaron: The way people make dependencies is they assoc them into the project map before calling eval-in-project
15:55	samaaron	oh ok
15:55	samaaron	so `lein deps` calls eval-in-project with an empty form?
15:56	weavejester	So instead of: (eval-in-project project `(foo.core/foo "foo") `(require 'foo.core))
15:56	Raynes	eval-in-project isn't even magic. All it does is spin off a separate JVM with the classpath set up for the project. It then sends the code to that JVM for evaluation.
15:56	Raynes	Now classloaders (which we haven't quite gotten right yet) are a bit like magic.
15:56	weavejester	You'd first update the project like: (update-in project [:dependencies] conj ['foo "1.0.0"])
15:56	HaakonKL	Classloaders: Because otherwise you could get viruses from the internet...
15:57	weavejester	What was that add-classpath project called...
15:58	samaaron	ok, so let me try and get this straight...
15:58	weavejester	Ah, pomegranate
15:59	samaaron	when i call `lein deps` in a new project that i'm using cljsbuild in
15:59	samaaron	it creates me a .lein-plugins dir with a bunch of dependencies in
15:59	samaaron	is that lein doing that or cljsbuild?
15:59	samaaron	and how would I know?
16:00	emezeske	samaaron: That's lein. You know that because you haven't typed 'lein cljsbuild' yet :)
16:00	samaaron	ah ok
16:00	weavejester	samaaron: Lein loads the plugin. When you run the plugin, it will update the project map with its own dependencies.
16:00	emezeske	samaaron: (Technically lein cljsbuild could hook into deps and do it's own thing, but it doesn't)
16:00	weavejester	samaaron: Leiningen automatically downloads any deps needed, so there's no need for "lein deps" strictly speaking
16:01	weavejester	You could just go "lein cljbuild" straight off
16:01	weavejester	And Lein would make sure its deps were up to date before trying to resolve the command.
16:01	samaaron	that makes sense
16:02	weavejester	There's an implicit "lein deps" before every command, and before any "eval-in-project"s
16:02	samaaron	:-)
16:03	samaaron	so when i do `lein cljsbuild` i don't see any new deps downloaded
16:04	weavejester	samaaron: In new versions of Leiningen it doesn't bother creating a "lib" or "classes" directory
16:04	Raynes	Yeah, it doesn't copy deps to your project anymore.
16:04	weavejester	samaaron: I believe it just downloads the deps into your $HOME/.m2 folder and adds them to the classpath directly.
16:04	Raynes	It uses them from where they sit in ~/.m2
16:05	sparkleshy	why are some "special forms", like fn, implemented with just ordinary clojure code? Isn't that against the definition of "special form"?
16:05	weavejester	sparkleshy: Implementation detail :) - don't look behind the curtain
16:05	weavejester	sparkleshy: In future, they might be "real" special forms, so it makes sense to treat them that way.
16:08	samaaron	so how do i get access to the the google closure libs?
16:08	Raynes	Call google and ask for permission.
16:08	samaaron	haha
16:08	emezeske	samaaron: The base google closure library is a dependency of the clojurescript compiler
16:08	samaaron	but if they're in a jar in my ~/.m2 directory...
16:09	emezeske	samaaron: So you can just (:require ...) and you're good. They will always be on the classpath.
16:09	samaaron	oh, cool
16:09	emezeske	samaaron: Note that the base library doesn't include any third party stuff (soy templates, etc)
16:17	benDos	Would this be the channel for clojurescript questions?
16:17	lynaghk	benDos: it would.
16:17	Raynes	Yep.
16:18	benDos	Ah cool, was going to start with it this weekend and wanted to make sure i could find an irc :)
16:19	Raynes	$max
16:19	lazybot	The most users ever in #clojure is 420
16:19	Raynes	He lies.
16:19	Raynes	amalloy: Fix that plugin.
16:19	scriptor	make it say 69
16:19	benDos	Out of curiosity, do I still get access to browser native js libs like JSON?
16:20	scriptor	JSON isn't a lib, as far as I know
16:20	TimMc	~max
16:20	clojurebot	Most users ever in #clojure: 404
16:20	Raynes	At least clojurebot is closer.
16:20	Raynes	Er, lazybot.
16:20	TimMc	a broken clock...
16:20	scriptor	benDos: you'll have access to anything the browser provides
16:20	benDos	I've tested in chrome firefox and opera, they all seem to recognize JSON.stringify etc
16:21	scriptor	ah, didn't know they had that now
16:21	benDos	Cause of the super loose typing the compiler is able to not care about that type of run time stuff?
16:21	solussd	is defstruct/create-struct actually going away sometime? I think I'd prefer using them in some cases- e.g. when I'm threading a datastructure through several functions that conj data onto a map
16:21	benDos	I mostly work in java and c, but need javascript for a new project
16:22	benDos	Having not used clojure in a few years maybe less, seems like clojurescript will be a little nicer to work in
16:22	scriptor	I don't see why it wouldn't be able to use JSON.stringify
16:23	hiredman	ls
16:23	dnolen	benDos: (.stringify js/JSON ...) is what you want
16:23	dnolen	benDos: in generally if you want to access global JS functionality you need to prefix with js/...
16:24	benDos	Forgive me, I don't remember clojure syntax v lisp'n'friends but the cadr looks like part of the function call there?
16:24	dnolen	benDos: cadr?
16:25	benDos	second element in the list :x
16:25	scriptor	(car (cdr ...)) ?
16:25	scriptor	ah, yes
16:25	scriptor	it's (.method-name object ...)
16:25	Bronsa	,(macroexpand '(a/b))
16:25	clojurebot	(a/b)
16:26	Bronsa	no wait.
16:26	benDos	Maybe I'll start with some clojure docs before getting into clojure script clearly i thought i remembered more than I do
16:26	Bronsa	oh.,
16:26	Bronsa	,(macroexpand '(Math/pow))
16:26	clojurebot	(. Math pow)
16:27	dnolen	benDos: someone needs to write a good ClojureScript book - I heard perhaps one was in the works?
16:27	benDos	From the readme, clojurescript is clojure less the jre?
16:27	benDos	but compiles to js etc
16:28	dnolen	benDos: it's an implementation of Clojure that compiles to JS yes.
16:28	technomancy	less the JRE and less eval
16:28	benDos	cool
16:29	hiredman	less vars
16:30	amalloy	dnolen: won't a good clojurescript book be out of date by the time it's published?
16:30	ibdknox	dnolen: isn't it a bit early for that?
16:30	pjstadig	less the stm
16:30	ibdknox	it will certainly be out of date by the time it is published
16:30	dnolen	pjstadig: anything JVM concurrency related really
16:31	cemerick	something is underway
16:31	pjstadig	isn't clojurescript still alpha?
16:31	benDos	clojure's stm uses the jre?
16:31	dnolen	amalloy: ibdknox: well I don't forsee the language changing dramatically. Many things going forward is optimization oriented.
16:31	cemerick	pjstadig: very, but the process of nailing down a book will be a decent forcing function for that
16:32	dnolen	are
16:32	autodidakto	I heard cemerick has the ear of tim oreilly himself
16:32	eggsby	What is the difference between binding and let?
16:32	ibdknox	dnolen: but any book on the subject will need to talk about libs and ways to do things..
16:32	eggsby	It seems to me that they do the same thing...
16:32	cemerick	hah
16:32	Raynes	Oh man.
16:32	Raynes	Am I obligated to have a chapter on clojurescript in my book now?
16:32	amalloy	i think you're more obligated to have a book that's finished
16:32	cemerick	autodidakto: keep spreading that; enough of a whisper campaign might end up making it so :-P
16:33	cemerick	Raynes: goodness no
16:33	Raynes	his*
16:33	dnolen	ibdknox: I think a good book could cover libs and tooling in an appendix with caveats about change
16:33	scriptor	eggsby: binding rebinds already existing vars, then when it's finished executing it reassigns those vars to their previous values
16:33	dnolen	I think there are many people who might use ClojureScript who are thoroughly unfamiliar w/ Clojure.
16:34	eggsby	scriptor: but effectually, that is the same as let? Is it just the implementation that is different?
16:34	benDos	dnolen, google is throwing a shitton of money at dart maybe that'll end up working out
16:34	technomancy	eggsby: the two differences are that binding is "deep" and that let only applies to locals.
16:34	scriptor	eggsby: let doesn't assume that the vars exist, nor does it try to return them to their previous values
16:35	technomancy	vars and locals look sort of alike, but are very very different
16:35	dnolen	I also think ClojureScript might appeal to advanced JS devs who've been doing JS long enough to be interested in other approaches.
16:35	dnolen	who don't really care about the JVM at all.
16:35	scriptor	how much production use does cljs see, if any?
16:36	dnolen	scriptor: I think there's stuff happening tho perhaps under the radar, and I think in the next 6 months could pretty quick.
16:37	eggsby	Thank you scriptor and technomancy
16:37	benDos	I understand that concurrency with imperative languages is hard but do so many feel to claim it just doesn't work :/
16:37	benDos	Was reading http://clojure.org/state
16:37	eggsby	I'm not sure I understand the use cases, but at least I understand the difference :)
16:37	flazz	is there a way to have stack traces be in terms of clojure?
16:38	pjstadig	binding and vars are a concurrency mechanism and a way of managing mutable state
16:38	technomancy	flazz: look at clj-stacktrace
16:38	pjstadig	a binding is mutable and can be set within the same thread
16:38	pjstadig	locals are immutable
16:38	Chousuke	eggsby: binding alters dynamic scope
16:38	dnolen	benDos: note that's written by someone who's done C++/Java/C# concurrent programs for 20 odd years.
16:39	Chousuke	eggsby: ie. the binding is changed for all code that runs while the binding is in effect.
16:39	Chousuke	eggsby: even if it's not in the current visible lexical scope.
16:39	autodidakto	technomancy: btw, why do stacktraces have the error at the top and not the bottom? everybody is constantly scrolling up.
16:40	technomancy	dunno
16:40	Chousuke	eggsby: let, on the other hand, just binds names (not vars) and creates a new lexical scope.
16:40	dnolen	flazz: 1.3 has very Clojure-y stacktraces, but I think few tools expose it.
16:41	flazz	dnolen: does emacs with swank/slime expose it?
16:42	dnolen	benDos: even w/ Gilad Bracha's involvement, I find Dart insanely boring. But I believe it also pushing the multi-lang browser support we're seeing now.
16:42	dnolen	flazz: nope
16:42	technomancy	swank uses clj-stacktrace, which is a lot more readable
16:43	eggsby	thank you Chousuke and pjstadig
16:43	eggsby	that clears it up, but wouldn't it be better to explicitly change state via a ref using the STM ?
16:44	autodidakto	ibdknox: it seems noir begins to embrace MVC with it's directory structure, but then mixes views and controlers routers?
16:44	Chousuke	not always
16:44	technomancy	eggsby: each of the four reference types is useful in different contexts
16:44	Chousuke	eggsby: dynamic vars are often used for a "context" sort of thing.
16:44	sritchie	autodidakto: that's kind of like saying you embrace bisexuality by dating girls, then losing steam
16:44	Chousuke	eggsby: ie, you have a bunch of functions using some global var, then you rebind that var to a value to provide a context for the functions, and proceed to use the functions while the binding is in effect.
16:45	ibdknox	autodidakto: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clj-noir/FxipsTEhVtM/nDH3JH48LFAJ
16:45	autodidakto	sritchie: hehe, ibdknox: ok i'll check that out
16:46	eggsby	ah Chousuke
16:46	technomancy	ibdknox: does the default noir skeleton still spit out files that have non-def forms in the top-level?
16:46	ibdknox	it has one
16:47	ibdknox	which is sugar over require
16:47	Chousuke	eggsby: dynamic vars should be used sparingly though. After all, when you rebind a var you are affecting something that you can't see.
16:47	technomancy	I don't like it, but I'm stumped to come up with an alternative =\
16:48	Chousuke	that can get you in trouble.
16:48	ibdknox	technomancy: yeah, I'm not sure what else I could do
16:48	ibdknox	one line isn't so bad
16:49	ibdknox	given what it does
16:49	technomancy	sometimes I wonder what life would be like if ns were extensible
16:50	ibdknox	lol
16:50	ibdknox	if it had wildcards everything would be fine ;0
16:50	ibdknox	;)
16:50	ibdknox	(:require [my-views.*])
16:50	technomancy	(ns my.noir.app (:require [noir.server]) (:noir-views [my.noir.app]))
16:50	ibdknox	ooo
16:50	ibdknox	that would be neat
16:50	ibdknox	didn't think about that
16:50	technomancy	but there's no way to namespace them
16:51	technomancy	so you'd run into nasty collisions
16:51	ibdknox	yeah
16:51	technomancy	ns+ is pretty sweet; I would love to see something like :like in core
16:51	technomancy	doesn't help here though
16:53	ibdknox	technomancy: what does :like do?
16:53	technomancy	it defines a template ns form
16:53	technomancy	http://code.google.com/p/clj-nstools/
16:53	technomancy	ibdknox: have you considered using bultitude to load views?
16:54	ibdknox	I don't know what that is :)
16:54	Raynes	He does something similar and probably terribly.
16:54	Raynes	ibdknox: https://github.com/Raynes/bultitude
16:54	technomancy	~bultitude is for finding namespaces on the classpath https://github.com/Raynes/bultitude
16:54	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
16:55	ibdknox	ooo
16:55	ibdknox	do you know if that works in a war?
16:55	technomancy	anything on the classpath
16:55	technomancy	should be fair game
16:55	autodidakto	ibdknox: I was looking at noir from a sinatra/padrino perspective, hence both familiarity and confusion. But I read the link and I like what you have to say. I'll give it a try (side note: i might be helpful to lots of people to have this rational on the website)
16:56	ibdknox	autodidakto: yeah, I need to update the noir site sometime soon.
16:57	ibdknox	technomancy: I use clojure.tools.namespace right now
16:57	ibdknox	unfortunately it doesn't work in wars which has been the source of a fair amount of confusion
16:57	technomancy	ditch it!
17:02	sritchie	ibdknox: it fails w/ clojure 1.2 if you have any lein-newnew templates on the classpath
17:03	ibdknox	say what?
17:04	technomancy	ibdknox: bug in clojure.tools.namespace
17:04	ibdknox	wow
17:04	ibdknox	weird
17:04	ibdknox	ok
17:04	ibdknox	I'll switch it over
17:04	Raynes	ibdknox: A bug that stuartsierra says he wont fix.
17:04	ibdknox	unless Raynes gets to it before I do
17:04	Raynes	Just FYI.
17:05	Raynes	Is that a hint?
17:05	Raynes	:p
17:05	ibdknox	fixing wars will eliminate what I think has been the largest source of questions on Noir lol
17:05	scriptor	also world peace
17:05	ibdknox	I looked into it at one point but didn't understand how classloaders worked in that context well enough to know how to fix it
17:06	ibdknox	I'm woefully uninformed on the ridiculousness of loading things into the JVM :)
17:06	technomancy	well double-check for yourself; I have never used a war file before and could be gravely mistaken
17:06	Bronsa	what's the bug?
17:07	benDos	dnolen, sorry had to run earlier i'll bbiab
17:08	ibdknox	Raynes: no I don't mind either way
17:08	Raynes	ibdknox: But yeah, it might actually not work in wars, but I don't really see why it wouldn't. It's pretty thorough.
17:08	hiredman	the thing is, all these "load namespaces" things are based on the classpath, when really the way you find resources and load code is via classloaders, there is really only one classloader that uses the classpath
17:09	Raynes	bultitude iterates through every classloader.
17:09	ibdknox	ah
17:09	TimMc	crazy talk
17:09	ibdknox	that should fix it then
17:09	technomancy	hiredman: isn't it more like there's one classpath per classloader?
17:10	technomancy	and thus there's only one classloader with the classpath provided at boot?
17:10	cemerick	ibdknox: fixing wars?
17:10	hiredman	technomancy: but other classloaders don't have a classpath
17:10	technomancy	they can have an internal path by which they load classes though
17:11	hiredman	they can, but is not required at all
17:11	hiredman	and in most cases they don't
17:11	technomancy	right; ok, that's a bit different I guess
17:11	Raynes	Java is a giant horror show.
17:11	technomancy	still, only one classpath seems like an oversimplification given clojure.lang.DynamicClassLoader
17:11	hiredman	and classloaders don't give you a way to list the resources available
17:12	hiredman	technomancy: clojure.lang.DynamicClassLoader is an example of a classloader with no classpath
17:12	hiredman	it loads classes right from memory
17:13	hiredman	the classpath is just a bootstrapping mechanism used by the system classloader
17:13	technomancy	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.5.0/docs/api/java/net/URLClassLoader.html#getURLs() <- what does this return then?
17:14	hiredman	technomancy: that is only for a particular subclass of classloader
17:14	technomancy	sure
17:14	hiredman	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.5.0/docs/api/java/lang/ClassLoader.html
17:15	hiredman	what you really want is, given a classloader, find on the namespaces available through it, which is hard
17:16	hiredman	of course that also precludes dynamicly created namespaces
17:17	technomancy	it's not terribly difficult given an URLClassLoader, but it can be slow
17:17	ibdknox	cemerick: dynamically loading view ns's doesn't work in wars
17:18	cemerick	ibdknox: unless they're exploded, I wouldn't expect so, no
17:18	cemerick	or, do you mean via the REPL?
17:25	aperiodic	how do folks usually use swank when working with multiple projects in parallel?
17:26	aperiodic	i'm starting a standalone swank server with lein-swank and connecting to it from multiple editor instances, but only one of my projects is on its classpath
17:26	aperiodic	i suppose i could just make a fake project that has all of the projects i want to use as dependencies, and start the server there
17:28	cemerick	aperiodic: lein checkout deps + clojure-jack-in should handle that, I think
17:29	lynaghk	Is there a way to get clojure-jack-in working with Lein2 projects? My src-paths [... ...] doesn't get picked up when I try it.
17:34	aperiodic	cemerick: putting all the checkout deps into a catch-all project, then? the projects themselves actually don't have much to do with eachother, i'm just a bit ADD.
17:34	cemerick	Yeah, that world work, though it seems like an odd thing to do if they're unrelated.
17:35	aperiodic	yeah, i felt that way, too. but it seems like the alternative is killing and starting swank servers whenever i switched between the two
17:35	scriptor	ooh, non-copy-on-write persistent vectors
17:35	lynaghk	aperiodic: can't you just start swank servers on different ports?
17:37	aperiodic	lynaghk: as far is a can tell, the swank server port for slimv is configured globally, so that would mean juggling a few different vimrcs
17:37	lynaghk	aperiodic: sounds like you're using an inferior editor.
17:37	aperiodic	:P
17:37	lynaghk	=P
17:38	pandeiro	ibdknox: iyo is there any advantage to using fetch if i'm just serving predefined clojure maps, not running remote functions?
17:39	ibdknox	what's the disadvantage?
17:39	pandeiro	dep i guess?
17:39	ibdknox	the lazy-store stuff would cache the result locally
17:39	ibdknox	but that's about it
17:40	aperiodic	ooh, there's a "localvimrc" plugin for project-specific vimrcs. sweet.
17:47	amalloy	seancorfield: is there an easy way to get c.j.jdbc to show the query it's running? i'm trying to switch from clojureql, and it had this handy feature where you could ask for any query's sql (with ? replaced with actual values)
17:48	amalloy	we were only using it for logging, of course
17:49	ibdknox	I couldn't find a way
17:49	cemerick	Perhaps of interest to some here: Drawbridge, an HTTP nREPL transport, implemented as a Ring handler. http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/2c78990f8a49188c
17:50	weavejester	cemerick: I noticed you working on that. I've been meaning on writing something similar, but I'm glad you beat me to it!
17:50	amalloy	arohner: it should be pretty simple to implement yourself, right?
17:50	arohner	amalloy: how?
17:51	dnolen	arohner: huh, I'm not sure why CLJS doesn't have delay - would take a patch for that. That's an easy one.
17:51	arohner	I must be missing something simple. Why is that easy to implement?
17:51	dnolen	arohner: delay is just thunking
17:51	amalloy	arohner: it's just a macro wrapped around an "is it done yet" atom
17:52	ibdknox	cemerick_away: are you storing serializable things in the session?
17:52	arohner	dnolen: oh right. I was thinking of promise
17:52	ibdknox	cemerick_away: er, only printable things I guess
17:52	arohner	I want promise as well :-)
17:52	amalloy	promise is just about as easy
17:53	arohner	but if you block waiting for a result, when does the other 'thread' run?
17:53	dnolen	amalloy: not really
17:53	amalloy	oh right, threading
17:53	ibdknox	yeah, that one is hard
17:53	dnolen	arohner: promise is hard, and I'm personally not convinced it makes much sense, tho others might disagree
17:53	arohner	I'm seeing a race in knockout.js that would be trivially solved w/ promise
17:54	pandeiro	arohner: are you doing interop with knockout.js?
17:54	ibdknox	dnolen: why doesn't it make sense?
17:54	arohner	pandeiro: I'm using knockout, but not interop yet
17:55	dnolen	ibdknox: promise, at least in my mind, thread semantics - blocking on read
17:55	pandeiro	just curious because i know knockout uses custom attributes, and it's a little bit painful manipulating them from cljs imo
17:55	amalloy	(defmacro delay* [& body] `(let [value# (atom nil)] (reify clojure.lang.IDeref (deref [this#] (:value (swap! value# (fn [{done# :done :as curr#}] (if done# curr#, {:done true, :value (do ~@body)}))))))))
17:56	ibdknox	dnolen: I guess the real solution is async from F#/C#
17:56	amalloy	except you'd want delay instead of delay*, and whatever cljs's protocol is called
17:56	ibdknox	where while that is blocking the thread yields
17:56	amalloy	dnolen: i can send that as a patch if you want?
17:57	dnolen	ibdknox: yes inside an async construct it could make sense - and that could be done via a lib
17:57	dnolen	amalloy: sure! but it should just be delay, not delay* right?
17:58	amalloy	yes, i mentioned that. i copy/pasted my clj-jvm version, where i was avoiding overwriting
17:58	arohner	btw, knockout seems like a great lib for clojurescript. it's essentially clojure cells for web UI
17:59	dnolen	amalloy: actually there's a broken looking implementation of delay in core.cljs now
17:59	dnolen	amalloy: for some reason delay is a fn instead of a macro.
17:59	amalloy	haha weird
17:59	amalloy	i do prefer their approach though, of deftyping for it, rather than my atom/reify
18:00	amalloy	so i'll just patch the existing impl
18:00	dnolen	amalloy: cool, thx
18:01	amalloy	dnolen: how do i make a macro in cljs?
18:02	dnolen	amalloy: inside of core.clj, the same folder as complier.clj
18:02	dnolen	in the same folder as compiler.clj I mean
18:02	amalloy	yeah, just found that
18:02	dnolen	amalloy: I'm assuming you're going to remove broken fn too :)
18:02	amalloy	yeah
18:03	amalloy	it's a bit weird, because i want the macro in clj to depend on the deftype in cljs. is that not a problem?
18:03	amalloy	i guess it's not; lazy-seq does the same thing
18:04	Raynes	amalloy: What are you using cljs for?
18:05	amalloy	Raynes: i'm not
18:14	amalloy	dnolen: how do the macros in core.clj get "imported" into core.cljs? i don't see any require-macros calls for me to add delay to
18:15	dnolen	amalloy: core.clj is required in compiler.clj
18:21	cemerick	weavejester: :-) hopefully it stands up to scrutiny
18:22	cemerick	ibdknox: yeah, the session holds the nREPL transport (in this case, just a pair of queues) that the backend drops response messages into
18:22	cemerick	nothing says the responses must be printable though; I've yet to address nontextual REPL interactions in drawbridge
18:23	ibdknox	cemerick: I'm thinking about times when you can use the memory session store
18:23	ibdknox	can't*
18:23	cemerick	ah
18:24	cemerick	that would get very dicey very fast
18:24	cemerick	ibdknox: the backend is necessarily single-host; when would memory sessions not work?
18:25	ibdknox	basically anytime you have more than one box and can't do sticky sessions :(
18:25	ibdknox	i.e. heroku
18:26	cemerick	technomancy may have a more useful response to that
18:26	cemerick	anyway, for textual REPL interactions, using a persistent session store would work fine
18:27	ibdknox	cool
18:27	hiredman	why use in memory queues? why not rabbit or similar?
18:27	ibdknox	I just know a fair amount of people are using alternate session stores and that might cause some very weird errors if what's being added to the session can't be printed
18:28	ibdknox	cemerick: that was my only concern ^
18:28	Raynes	ibdknox: refheap uses a mongodb session store.
18:28	hiredman	if you use a message bus, do you need sessions at all?
18:28	cemerick	hiredman: a rabbitmq transport would be quite trivial.
18:29	hiredman	I am aware
18:29	cemerick	Well, I don't use it, and the extra dep would be a PITA for most people, so…
18:29	hiredman	infact, just hooking clojure.main/repl up to queues instead of io streams is trivial
18:30	hiredman	cemerick: I just mean it could actually make drawbridge work on heroku (if the session thing is a problem)
18:31	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/vespa-crabro/blob/master/test/vespa_crabro/test/core.clj#L57
18:31	cemerick	ibdknox: Sure; I don't think there'll be any problem given the publicly-available nREPL middlewares that are around so far.
18:32	cemerick	hrm, actually, it's more complicated than that. The REPL session's dynamic scope would need to be persisted as well.
18:32	hiredman	:\|
18:33	arohner	I'm starting to think everything should be serializable. Even fns and infinite seqs
18:33	arohner	maybe especially fns
18:34	TimMc	$google serializable fn
18:34	lazybot	[technomancy/serializable-fn · GitHub] https://github.com/technomancy/serializable-fn
18:34	arohner	TimMc: yes, I'm aware. I mean production-ready serializable
18:34	TimMc	:-P
18:34	aperiodic	how do you serialize the lexical scope?
18:35	arohner	aperiodic: the same way it's in the compiler, as a stack of maps of immutable values
18:35	cemerick	ibdknox: I'll lay in wait for problem reports and science done by technomancy et al. before thinking too hard about it.
18:35	hiredman	lexical scope is just fields in a class
18:35	aperiodic	ah right, immutability rocks
18:35	hiredman	TimMc: you mean vars?
18:36	arohner	TimMc: obviously many Java things won't be serializable, but I'd be happy with a solution that worked on pure clojure
18:36	ibdknox	cemerick: oh, I wasn't interested in a solution so much as a warning :)
18:36	cemerick	ibdknox: Good thing! ;-)
18:36	hiredman	to make fns serializable you would have to ship the fn's class around too
18:37	cemerick	I'm a Heroku noob myself, so I'm far from knowing where all the bodies are buried.
18:37	ibdknox	also no free variables
18:37	hiredman	and clojure's gensym (used a lot for naming classes) isn't safe between vms
18:37	ibdknox	in these functions to be serialized
18:38	arohner	ibdknox: free variables?
18:38	hiredman	ibdknox: not a problem
18:38	ibdknox	hiredman: hm, resolve them before?
18:38	hiredman	when a fn object is created, the values it closes over are passed to the constructr and stored as fields
18:38	ibdknox	ah
18:39	hiredman	top level values are resolved to vars at compile time
18:39	hiredman	(before the class is generated)
18:40	arohner	hiredman: do you need the classname to be unique? why not just hash the input clojure source of the fn?
18:40	arohner	i.e. rather than (gensym foo), store (sha1 (str (quote (fn foo [x] (inc (bar x)))
18:41	hiredman	arohner: it doesn't actually have to be uniqueue, but your stack traces become much harder to read
18:41	amalloy	dnolen: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-173 opened, patch and test attached, marked as waiting on you
18:42	arohner	hiredman: that seems like a minor problem compared to getting this to work at all :-)
18:43	sritchie	technomancy, have you seen "error in opening zip file" at all?
18:43	sritchie	w/ leiningen 2
18:43	sritchie	or any idea how to debug it?
18:43	sritchie	error's at at leiningen.core.classpath$extract_native_deps$fn__255.invoke(classpath.clj:42)
18:45	amalloy	sritchie: probably a corrupt jar file on your classpath somewhere
18:45	sritchie	amalloy: this is that same issue as before, I think, where someone references a dependency that's just a pom, but doesn't mark it as such
18:45	sritchie	maven doesn't choke on those, but leiningen does
18:45	sritchie	I'll see if I can track it down
18:47	sritchie	amalloy: lein 1 is fine
18:47	sritchie	lein 2 chokes on this particular dep
18:55	technomancy	sritchie: oh yeah, I think there was a bug reported with pom dependencies
18:55	technomancy	are you on master or preview2
18:55	technomancy	?
18:55	sritchie	preview2
18:58	technomancy	do you have a :type :pom that I could test on?
18:58	technomancy	oh, and is your stack trace the same as https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/481 ?
19:02	kurtharriger	Is it possible to turn this into a leiningen plugin https://gist.github.com/2244645, what step would I need to hook to get it to run for any command?
19:35	TimMc	hiredman: No, it was a joke about serializing C-style pointers
19:47	sritchie	technomancy: sorry, I need to turn my alerts back on
19:47	sritchie	this one's private, but yeah, that's the exception
19:47	sritchie	funny, that's the exact jar I was using
19:47	sritchie	perfect
19:47	sritchie	gotta start reading issues :)
19:49	technomancy	so ... with dependencies that aren't jars, does it make more sense to keep them off the classpath via a blacklist or a whitelist?
19:49	technomancy	thinking maybe only allowing dependency jars/zips to be on the classpath would make sense, but I've never worked with non-jar dependencies
19:51	technomancy	if only cemerick were here
19:53	aperiodic	is it just jaring that chokes on non-jar deps?
19:54	technomancy	it's the search for native deps
19:54	technomancy	also screws up eclipse though https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/330
19:55	mebaran151	I'm trying to play with Apache Pivot, but I'm having a tiny bit of a hard time getting it to see clojure's classes. It is using the wrong classloader
19:55	mebaran151	how can I get the awt thread (threads?) to reference the clojure classloader?
19:55	kurtharriger	technomancy: hadoop usually adds the configuration directory is added to the classpath so that configuration files can be accessed as resources
19:56	kurtharriger	I currently do this with extra-classpath-dirs
19:56	technomancy	kurtharriger: oh sure; I mean classpath entries that come in via dependencies
19:56	technomancy	gotta have directories on the classpath
19:57	kurtharriger	I guess I wasn't following the question well enough, getting dependencies that aren't jars or folders?
20:00	mebaran151	or change the classloader to default to clojure (right now Class/forName is failing to find classes created with defrecord / deftype)
20:00	technomancy	kurtharriger: yeah, you can have dependencies that are just bare pom files
20:01	sander	I think I have a (non-empty) solution to the 4clojure quine problem, but it says "Empty input is not allowed"
20:01	xeqi	technomancy: I ran into this with 457 as well, and decided a .pom in the classpath didn't make sense
20:01	amalloy	sander: care to share?
20:01	xeqi	I thought a whitelist to just zip/jar would work
20:01	sander	if i am not ruining it for anyone here, sure
20:01	sander	its probably not a very elegant one..
20:02	amalloy	shrug gist it then, and if someone doesn't want spoilers they won't click
20:02	sander	right. didn't think about that one
20:02	technomancy	xeqi: yeah, I think I'll go with that
20:04	amalloy	oh whoa. something is wrong with 4clojure now, apparently, sander. it thinks every input is empty
20:04	aperiodic	mebaran151: i've never had to screw around with classloaders to get hadoop to find my classes, but they're all AOT'd so that might not be relevant
20:04	amalloy	it was working fine this morning, and i haven't touched anything since then
20:05	sander	amalloy: uups
20:05	aperiodic	mebaran151: as long as .class files are being generated and placed on the classpath, i don't think you should have to resort to using the clojure classloader
20:06	sander	amalloy: here it goes anyway: https://gist.github.com/2245072
20:07	sander	amalloy: good luck for finding the problem, I'll go to sleep now
20:08	amalloy	sander: fixed it
20:08	amalloy	if you want to submit your thing
20:08	amalloy	i didn't find the problem, but a restart fixed it :P
20:08	sander	ammalloy: thanks
20:08	sander	amalloy: what was the problem?
20:08	amalloy	dunno. didn't find it
20:09	mebaran151	aperiodic: not running havoc: trying to play with Apache Pivot (neat looking gui toolkit)
20:09	mebaran151	stepping through the source it's failing with a Class not found exception at Class/forName
20:09	sander	amalloy: restart?
20:09	sander	:-)
20:09	amalloy	yep
20:09	mebaran151	I'm pretty sure aot would solve a lot of my problems, to be sure
20:10	mebaran151	but I'd like to play dynamically at the repl :)
20:10	aperiodic	that shouldn't be an issue, as long as you're not changing the class interfaces
20:11	mebaran151	so I'd have to restart my repl first right?
20:13	aperiodic	yeah, but i think you'll be able to play around in the repl as long as the interfaces don't change
20:13	mebaran151	how do I AOT?
20:13	aperiodic	lein compile
20:13	mebaran151	cool I'll try that next
20:13	mebaran151	thanks
20:14	mebaran151	(I'm willing to bet I'm going to run into resource problems next actually
20:14	aperiodic	heh, don't thank me until it actually works ;)
20:17	aperiodic	mebaran151: oh, firstt you'll need to set the :aot key in your project.clj to a list of namespaces (or a regex) that you want to be AOT'd
20:32	mebaran151	aperiodic: that mostly worked!
20:33	mebaran151	now I just have to figure out a way to get it to find my resources
20:38	aperiodic	mebaran151: cool! for the resources, try the :extra-classpath-dirs key in project.clj (see https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj)
20:38	mebaran151	I was just dropping it resources
20:42	mebaran151	actually it isn't lying to me, getResource is returning nil
20:42	mebaran151	where am I supposed to put things like xml gui descriptions, etc
20:42	mebaran151	(i.e. what do the best practices say; resources seems like a slightly poor fit)
20:44	aperiodic	why is resources a poor fit? they sound like resources to me.
20:45	mebaran151	maybe, they seem to have a code fit too. I put them in resources at first just because I didn't know if there was a better place
20:49	mebaran151	hey it's working now! Though I have to recompile my app every time I make a change
20:53	aperiodic	what happens if you remove all the .clj files from the classes directory?
20:53	mebaran151	there are none there
20:53	mebaran151	I think the main thing is that Pivot is looking to load a class file (and now it can find my ApplicationRecord)
20:59	aperiodic	oh, the application record is coming out of defrecord?
21:01	aperiodic	that might have a different behavior than classes created using gen-class. such classes dynamically seek the implementation in .clj files, which is why you only need to AOT them when you add/remove functions, or change their signatures
21:01	mebaran151	ah yeah
21:01	mebaran151	I was using defrecord
21:02	mebaran151	seems like in this case gen-class might be a stronger fit
21:02	aperiodic	i'd agree
21:08	mebaran151	I also have a minor quibble: when I ctrl-c lein on windows, it doesn't close and I have to use taskmgr to reset it
21:10	ihodes	so, i want to finally give clojurescript a try. i'm wondering what the best workflow/environment is? i'm using ring/moustache for my backend stuff, but i'm wondering what's the best way to update the javascript in the browser from my cljs repl and not refresh?
21:13	aperiodic	mebaran151: seems to be a known issue https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/319
21:36	technomancy	mebaran151: according to someone on the mailing list it's an intrinsic problem with cygwin
21:53	matt444	Wow, Himera is a game-changer
21:53	ihodes	hmmm, anyone? (previous question asking about a setting up a good workflow for developing in clojurescript; i'm going to be doing graphics programming, so i don't want to be refreshing the page each time)
21:56	mebaran151	technomancy: I'm not running lein in cygwin: I'm running lein in Powershell
21:57	technomancy	hm; I don't know then.
21:58	mebaran151	I see the lein process die, but not its child swank
21:58	technomancy	matt444: still trying to figure out what game exactly it is that's been changed
21:58	mebaran151	btw, has there been a lein release that fixed clojure-jack-in for windows?
21:59	technomancy	mebaran151: 1.7.1 is the latest release; I don't know if jack-in works on it
21:59	mebaran151	ah I'm there
22:00	technomancy	it's unlikely to get fixed unless some enterprising windows user dives in and tries to fix it
22:02	oakwise	ihodes: run a browser connected repl and have your editor send code to it
22:03	oakwise	are you using emacs?
22:04	ihodes	oakwise: i am
22:05	oakwise	ihodes: great. I just M-x shell and start a repl with `lein trampoline cljsbuild repl-listen` and then do something like this to send forms to that repl: https://github.com/brentonashworth/one/wiki/Emacs
22:06	ihodes	oakwise: oh nice--thanks!
22:07	oakwise	np
22:07	Zoka	technomancy: This is far fetched, but are you by any chance running some incarnation
22:07	Zoka	of webrepl-client against ringMon demo site at http://noirmon.herokuapp.com/ringmon/monview.html ?