#clojure – 2012-03-28

2012-03-28

00:00	ibdknox	many are golfed into hell
00:09	mk	nsxt: not the long ones then, and the ones that you can understand without needing to think through them
00:09	mk	ibdknox: I think there's a bigger issue with newbies using long or awkward constructs than with people trying to golf their solutions down. You don't get points for a short solution
00:10	ibdknox	huh?
00:10	ibdknox	we're talking about 4clojure right
00:10	ibdknox	?
00:10	mk	yes
00:10	ibdknox	the guys who are really into 4clojure are absolutely golfing the solutions down
00:10	ibdknox	you do get points, in a way :)
00:11	ibdknox	the league mode is about trying to get the shortest possible answer
00:12	ibdknox	which is definitely very neat to look at
00:12	ibdknox	but often far from idiomatic
00:12	mk	ibdknox: do you have an example? Most of the initial ones look just fine.
00:12	ibdknox	the earlier ones probably don't have particularly clever solutions
00:12	stirfoo	Is there a document that describes exactly what immutable means when applied towards the persistent data structures in clojure? The thing that bugs me is I can place say, a StringBuffer instance in a PersistentVector, then .append to it.
00:13	stirfoo	I want to say, that's mutating the vector, but I just don't know.
00:13	ibdknox	stirfoo: did the vector change? or the things inside of it?
00:13	stirfoo	ibdknox: right, right. and that was frontmost in my mind.
00:13	ibdknox	mk: I don't have one at hand, don't spend much time there. I'm sure amalloy could point you to some though
00:14	mk	ibdknox: I see - I think for the earlier problems the shortness heuristic is good - like I said, more newbies will end up doing something huge than experts will end up with something too short
00:14	ibdknox	stirfoo: if you use a mutable structure in an immutable one, that structure will still be mutable. In general, you have to dip down into java-land for that to happen
00:16	mk	stirfoo: immutable means that clojure will never mutate your structures, and that clojure's structures will never mutate
00:17	mk	stirfoo: if you use java code on java structures inside clojure, then you lose the expectation of immutability
00:17	stirfoo	I actually understand the persistent aspect fairly well. How a history of actions is kept. You conj onto a vector, you get the 'tail' back and a reference to the original vector. The original is unchanged.
00:18	stirfoo	mk: ok, you've both cleared it up a bit for me, thanks
00:19	mk	stirfoo: the underlying mechanics of clojure differ from most lisps, but you usually don't have to worry about that - what's really important is the distinction between values and identities
00:19	qbg	the reference identities never change
00:19	mk	rich hickey has some nice talks about this up on infoq
00:20	mk	the important thing is that what you usually think of as a value (like an object), isn't really a value, it's an identity (which is a bit like a changing sequence of values)
00:21	mk	values never change, in the way that 1, "abc", and so on never change
00:22	mk	and this extends to composite values, like collections and struct-like things
00:27	stirfoo	The internals of clojure are just a joy to study. There's some mind-boggling stuff going on in there, and I don't even know java that well. ;)
00:29	lynaghk	What do you guys think about embedded languages that compile down to HTML or CSS (e.g. HAML and SASS in the ruby world, or Hiccup in Clojure world)
00:29	ibdknox	lynaghk: ?
00:29	lynaghk	I'm pretty happy with HAML, but I'm looking at CSSgen (a Clojure project) and am on the fence about jumping over to it from Sass
00:30	lynaghk	(er, Hiccup, not haml. I'm using both, actually.)
00:30	ibdknox	I've not seen a lot of benefit with cssgen really
00:31	xeqi	the big gain for me in the ruby world was compass
00:31	lynaghk	Yeah; maybe it's just the amount of syntax compared to SASS but it doesn't look like a clear win to me (especially since I'm not doing any crazy CSS like I do crazy markup)
00:31	lynaghk	xeqi: that is the collection of Sass mixins so you could just say "+container" and stuff to get a grid going, yeah?
00:32	xeqi	that was part of it
00:32	ibdknox	a watcher
00:32	ibdknox	and such
00:32	xeqi	there were other parts that would abstract all the browser specific tags
00:33	lynaghk	xeqi: ah yeah. I can see that being a lifesaver if you need to worry about browser compatability.
00:33	xeqi	for gradients, rounded corners, etc
00:33	xeqi	clearfix back to ie6
00:33	lynaghk	xeqi: you do a lot of frontend work?
00:34	xeqi	did web contracting for awhile
00:35	xeqi	so yes, but not great at the design part
00:36	xeqi	I haven't tried cssgen yet, but it would be hard to make me use it over bootstrap, less, or compass
00:36	lynaghk	ibdknox: the appeal of CSSgen for me is to get everything in Clojure where it's easier to handle dependencies and compilation workflow. There is no mechanism in C2 right now to do CSS, and I feel gross either inlining strings (as in the examples) or just ignoring the issue and letting people fend for themselves.
00:36	lynaghk	xeqi: yeah, the ecosystem is a huge win.
00:37	ibdknox	lynaghk: weavejester was working on a less compilation middleware I think
00:37	ibdknox	seems to me that the simplest solution would be to just build a simple asset chain
00:38	ibdknox	and let people use whatever
00:38	pandeiro	cljs still has no official way to turn a clojure map into a js obj right?
00:38	lynaghk	ibdknox: I'm not sure what you mean.
00:39	lynaghk	ibdknox: in the case of something like noir, yeah, just give them extend via middleware or whatever. I'm not sure what would be analogous for C2
00:40	ibdknox	lynaghk: why not have middleware there too? :)
00:40	yoklov	pandeiro: not that i've been able to figure out, i think you're just supposed to do it manually.
00:40	lynaghk	ibdknox: uh oh...
00:40	ibdknox	haha
00:40	ibdknox	yoklov: pandeiro: there's one in jayq
00:40	ibdknox	but nothing official
00:41	lynaghk	ibdknox: though, now that I think about it, these kinds of styles aren't dynamic at all. Maybe just write a macro that calls out to Sass on Jruby or whatever at compile-time.
00:41	mk	pandeiro: a js map must take strings as its keys
00:41	ibdknox	lynaghk: mhm
00:41	pandeiro	ibdknox: what does jquery do on that front?
00:41	ibdknox	pandeiro: nothing, but I needed it, so there's a util for it
00:41	yoklov	mk: yeah but keywords in cljs are just strings
00:41	yoklov	though if you want it in normal js you'd have to call name on them
00:42	yoklov	or enter weird unicode
00:42	mk	yoklov: right - I was thinking of maps that map arbitrary values
00:42	yoklov	oh, yeah those would be trickier.
00:42	pandeiro	just reflected on that being a major part missing while playing with the online compiler tonight
00:43	mk	pandeiro: I haven't heard the issue come up for people using cljs to do things
00:44	mk	that may or may not be reassuring
00:44	ibdknox	it's a common need if you do any interop
00:45	lynaghk	mk: I think everyone just googles around until they find mmgrana's gist
00:45	pandeiro	yeah i mean json is the language
00:45	ibdknox	yep lol
00:45	pandeiro	lynaghk: `fogus should add that link to his compiler maybe
00:47	pandeiro	lynaghk: btw i did battle with c2 for hrs today, it won
00:48	lynaghk	pandeiro: what were you having trouble with?
00:48	pandeiro	i concluded it's not possible to use c2.geo.core in a noir view - vrepl works great
00:48	pandeiro	but geo->svg doesn't work when i require the ns
00:48	lynaghk	were you AOT compiling?
00:48	pandeiro	shit
00:48	ibdknox	ok
00:49	ibdknox	we should turn that off
00:49	lynaghk	there is a bug in core.match
00:49	pandeiro	was i supposed to? or not?
00:49	ibdknox	pandeiro: in project.clj :main add ^{:skip-aot true}
00:49	ibdknox	so it'll look like
00:49	lynaghk	I opened a ticket on JIRA a few weeks ago about it, but it's not a priority for David or I to dig into
00:50	ibdknox	:main ^{:skip-aot true} mycool.server
00:50	lynaghk	yeah, that bug with geo->svg took me a few hours to track down because everything is peachy in the REPL.
00:50	pandeiro	weird i was trying to test that match expression too but i thought the prob was geo->svg
00:50	pandeiro	the way it defines project and the other fn i cant remember now
00:50	pandeiro	those are present but unbound when you require c2.geo.core
00:51	lynaghk	As far as I know, it works, but I've only tried with the geoJSON that is included in vomnibus. If you keep having trouble feel free to open up an issue on the githubs.
00:51	pandeiro	alright i will check it out again tomorrow after skipping aot
00:52	pandeiro	hopefully that resolves it
00:52	Wrecktum	Anybody here sick of niggers?
00:52	Wrecktum	I sure as hell am!
00:52	Wrecktum	That is why I joined
00:52	Wrecktum	chimpout
00:52	Wrecktum	.com
00:52	Wrecktum	/forum
01:01	yoklov	so, in clojurescript how do people deal with the state inherent in js events? (e.g. click toggling)
01:02	yoklov	throw caution to the wind and let there be atoms?
01:03	pandeiro	yoklov: yeah most code i've seen uses atoms
01:35	ibdknox	statemachines!
01:47	muhoo	yoklov: waltz :-)
01:48	Raynes	ibdknox: Blue butterflies!
01:48	muhoo	flying spaghetti monsters!
01:49	muhoo	sorry, finite state machines. still, everytime i see FSM, i thank His Noodly Appendage.
01:49	yoklov	i looked at that, it seems really neat but i don't know if it makes sense here… i have several button-like objects
01:49	yoklov	several as in a large 2d array
01:50	ibdknox	do they all only have single states?
01:50	ibdknox	if so just use classes
01:50	yoklov	they all have a finite number
01:50	yoklov	hm
01:50	yoklov	ctually they are all exactly finite state machines themselves
01:50	ibdknox	:p
01:51	ibdknox	I win ;)
01:51	yoklov	haha, yeah.
01:52	jblomo	is it possible to use gen-class to extend a parameterized type?
01:53	jblomo	i noticed http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/5efd692804df3f47 and see that the work around was to create an intermediate class in Java, but wanted to see if that had changed
01:53	jblomo	or if i was misunderstanding it
02:08	amalloy	jblomo: i don't think it is, exactly, but the good news is you don't really have to - type parameters are a nicety for javac, not a key component of the classfile
02:16	jblomo	amalloy: it looks like the framework expects a java.lang.reflect.ParameterizedType, so somehow it seems like Java is recognizing it after erasure
02:16	jblomo	hmm, maybe I could just implement that interface
02:17	amalloy	yeah, i think if they're using reflection they can manage to make it impossible for you
02:18	lynaghk	Does anyone know how exactly GSoC students are supposed to sign up?
02:19	lynaghk	I know they have a deadline in a week. Some people have emailed me about working on C2; should I just tell them to submit something at http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/homepage/google/gsoc2012
02:37	beffbernard	How do I make this unlazy? (read-string (take 1 lines))
02:38	ibdknox	lynaghk: yeah I think they have to submit a project proposal
02:38	ibdknox	I'm kind of confused about it myself
02:42	Raynes	ibdknox: It's late.
02:42	Raynes	ibdknox: Y U NO SLEEP?
02:42	ibdknox	srsly
02:42	ibdknox	cuz I'm retarded
04:41	echo-area	Suppose I specify A as dependency, and B as dev-dependency, but B depends on A too. Leiningen complains there are multiple A's in the classpath.
04:42	echo-area	How to resolve this besides setting LEIN_SNAPSHOTS_IN_RELEASE?
04:50	echo-area	Oh, there are two different problems
04:53	clgv	I am experimenting with JPPF to execute Jobs on remote computers. Therefore I derive a task implementation from JPPFTask via proxy. The JPPF framework needs to load that class when submitting the task. unluckily, I get a ClassNotFoundException at that time. THe first thing I noticed is that JPPFClient (and all the other JPPF classes) have AppClassLoader as ClassLoader while my task implementation has Clojure's DynamicClassLoader as ClassLoader.
04:55	clgv	It makes sense that the AppClassLoader does not find my task implementation since the DynamicClassLoader is a child of the AppClassLoader and lookup is performed in parent direction. what can I do to solve this?
05:05	Lajjla	So, gentlemen, again, is ##(let [some-datum (list (symbol "I worship His Shadow"))] (= some-datum (read-string (print-str some-datum)))) a bug or a feature?
05:05	lazybot	⇒ false
05:06	clgv	Lajjla: symbols must not contain whitespaces. there should be an error. hopefully that will be implemented
05:07	Lajjla	clgv, yes, one would assume, so it's a bug that ##(symbol? (symbol "I worship His Shadow"))
05:07	lazybot	⇒ true
05:07	Lajjla	Or (symbol ":appparently-this-is-not-a-keyword")
05:08	clgv	Lajjla: yes. but it is also known - there were several other examples that violated symbol rules
05:09	Lajjla	clgv, ah, okay, I guess people have more important things to do then I guess, I'm no expert, the MicroSoft Chief Software Architect is stilla biove but it seems reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallly trivial to fix this to me.
05:10	clgv	Lajjla: there are other issues where warnings/errors are also missing, e.g. usage of & in protocols
05:10	Lajjla	Ah okay
05:10	clgv	I have no clue why they are still around
05:10	Lajjla	My earnest opinion is that this is very sloppy honestly.
05:11	Lajjla	To just stick a symbol tag on a string like that without any form of validation
05:14	clgv	hmmm but a quick search on the issues with "symbol" in their topics doesnt yield any matching ticket.
05:16	Lajjla	clgv, ah, okay
05:16	Lajjla	clgv, would you for me make it?
05:16	Lajjla	I would appreciate it and be aeternally thankful
05:18	clgv	I have no jira account there
05:18	Lajjla	No idea what that is, but bawww.
05:18	clgv	there management system where you can create issues.
05:18	Lajjla	Can has hug instead?
05:18	Lajjla	Ahh
05:18	clgv	;)
05:23	clgv	Lajjla: are you writing some macro or why do you need to create symbols indirectly via 'symbol?
05:25	Lajjla	clgv, not at all, I don't use clojure, I was just fooling around and noticed that (symbol "string which isn't a symbol") didn't return an error, then I decided to print it out and I found it sloppy so I wanted to know if it was a feature or a bug.
05:29	clgv	hmm would have been a good issue for clojure 1.4 since they wanted to improve documentation and errors afaik
05:29	clgv	but I dont see any change in the master branch
07:59	solussd	ivan: are you referring to that thread on the mailing list?
08:00	solussd	{{'this 'is 'ugly 'and 'inconsistent}}, #{'at 'least 'I 'know 'this 'is 'a 'reader 'macro}
08:23	Belaf	Hello everybody, if I have a java class with a private constructor, is there any way to extend it (gen-class) in clojure?
09:26	Chiron	I need to use MongoDB, I create a couple of vars like (def mongo-url url "...") (def collection "....") . Any better idea? how to be idiomatic?
09:41	acagle	/flush
09:41	duck11231	Chiron: Have you looked at the two big mongo libraries for clojure? They both do a pretty good job of making it idiomatic
09:42	Chiron	actually I need to use Mongo with Storm, I found a library for that called Storm-Mongo
09:43	Chiron	https://github.com/christkv/mongo-storm
10:41	TimMc	Just changed the Wikipedia article on Clojure to have an italicized "j". We'll see how long that lasts.
10:41	TimMc	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clojure
10:59	clgv	TimMc: lol is that the TM version? ;)
11:00	TimMc	clgv: trademark?
11:00	clgv	yeah :P
11:00	TimMc	No idea.
11:11	clgv	I have an old project.clj where a leiningen plugin for native deps is used - is that still the way to go?
11:31	clgv	args. is there no working leiningen support to get native dependencies transitively?
11:51	dnolen	lynaghk: metadata core.logic patch applied, thanks much
12:24	lynaghk	dnolen: thank you. I had quite the adventure in logic.clj figuring out what I needed to change = )
12:24	dnolen	lynaghk: haha, I'm excited about how many people have looked at core.logic's internals now :)
12:25	lynaghk	dnolen: while I have you here---what should I tell students about GSoC
12:25	dnolen	lynaghk: hmm, what do you mean?
12:25	lynaghk	several people have contacted me about working on C2 this summer.
12:26	lynaghk	Should I tell them to go over to the google melenage site and sign up and submit a proposal?
12:26	dnolen	lynaghk: yes, or say they are applying for an existing proposal.
12:26	dnolen	there's only a week 1/2 or so for them to submit.
12:26	lynaghk	And does Google just fund everything we come up with, or will the core team be sitting down to pick out the most promising projects from the student proposals?
12:27	lynaghk	dnolen: yeah, thankfully the first student who contacted me mentioned that, so I rushed out some posts to various mailing lists = )
12:29	dnolen	lynaghk: we'll have to pick the most promising proposal/student/mentor combinations
12:29	lynaghk	dnolen: any idea how many slots Clojure/core will get from The Google?
12:30	dnolen	In our organization form I said we'll have at least 4 killer projects we absolutely want to move forward with, and I've requested that in an ideal world we could do 8
12:31	lynaghk	dnolen: alright, sounds good. I'll keep my fingers crossed that some old-hat schemers are on the GSoC funding committee = )
12:31	dnolen	lynaghk: yes :)
12:38	pandeiro	lynaghk: was the aot with c2.geo.core, thanks ... want me to fork and add to the README or something?
12:39	technomancy	echo-area: the dev-dependencies/dependencies split in lein1 is really nasty; lein2 does away with it entirely
12:41	technomancy	clgv: lein should pull in native deps transitively as long as they're formatted correctly
12:41	technomancy	but it doesn't support cakes jar-in-a-jar scheme
12:41	technomancy	oh, and good morning everyone
12:41	clgv	technomancy: what do I have to add to project.clj for native-deps in 1.7.1?
12:43	technomancy	clgv: it should scan all the jars brought in by :dependencies for native components
12:44	clgv	technomancy: so I dont have to add anything to project.clj?
12:45	technomancy	shouldn't have to
12:46	clgv	hmm maybe the layout of the dependency is wrong. its: jriengine 0.8.4
12:48	technomancy	yeah, some older jars use a cake-specific layout
12:48	clgv	technomancy: jriengine has a "native" and " lib" dir. seems the lib dir is not extracted
12:49	technomancy	yeah, you'll have to declare the jars in there as real dependencies if jriengine doesn't declare them
12:50	clgv	ah ok
12:53	lynaghk	pandeiro: what exactly do you want to change?
12:54	lynaghk	pandeiro: if you itchin' for a project, you could try figuring out what the underlying issue is in core.match and submit a patch for that.
12:56	bsteuber	in cljs, I am trying to generate (try ... (catch js/Error ..)) from a macro, which gives an "Assert failed: Can't qualify symbol in catch" - any ideas?
12:58	chouser	technomancy: btw, I have most of the longbottom features in clj-stacktrace, but there are a couple bugs yet.
12:58	pandeiro	lynaghk: actually the little testing i did of match didn't reveal any bug, but you think the issue is there? i just changed the readme to recommend skip-aot, is that not a good idea?
12:59	lynaghk	pandeiro: I am pretty sure it is an AOT issue with match---if you manually macroexpand the match clause in a REPL and inline it, then AOT will work fine.
13:01	autodidakto	I wish people would provide more info about their projects on clojars. Sometimes it's just half a sentence and no github link. Am I right or am I right?
13:01	chouser	technomancy: unfortunately, other priorities have come up so I've pushed what I've got to https://github.com/LonoCloud/clj-stacktrace and hope to get back to it in a week or so.
13:01	lynaghk	pandeiro: It's a pretty specific bug, so I don't really want to confuse people by mentioning it in the README---if you want, open up an issue on github and I'll look into it after I push through on cljs code generation stuff (though, that could be a week or two)
13:05	technomancy	chouser: no worries
13:12	autodidakto	Can anyone suggest good, general purpose leiningen plugins to pimp my lein? I found difftest and clj-stacktrace. I'm wondering what else I'm missing out on.
13:14	RickInGA	autodidakto: cljs-build
13:17	RickInGA	autodidakto: Assuming you are not on version 2 yet, lein-newnew
13:27	autodidakto	RickInGA: thanks, I'll check those out
13:27	TimMc	wait wait wait
13:28	TimMc	Hiccup just concats strings into its HTML? It doesn't escape them?
13:29	TimMc	https://github.com/andrewvc/rocksandsand/blob/master/src/rocksandsand/views/index.clj <-- I'd expect line 21 to have " <> " instead of " <> "
13:29	autodidakto	TimMc: I think you need to use escape-html googling
13:29	TimMc	ugh
13:30	autodidakto	"One thing to watch out with hiccup is that content is not escaped by default; you need wrap it in escape-html or its alias h. This is an unfortunate default that you definately need to be aware of if you choose to use hiccup."
13:30	TimMc	I thought we got over this shit a decade ago.
13:30	autodidakto	http://brehaut.net/blog/2011/ring_introduction
13:30	autodidakto	heh
13:32	TimMc	Every time you write an HTML templating toolkit that doesn't escape by default, an Estonian bot herder eats a kitten.
13:32	autodidakto	what's a bot herder?
13:33	TimMc	Controller of a botnet.
13:33	alexyakushev	Does anyone tried dynamic compilation on Android?
13:34	autodidakto	TimMc: ahh, gotcha. Reasonable complaint though. I wonder what the hiccup guys' excuse is.
13:35	TimMc	There is none.
13:35	pandeiro	does this map literal have an even number of forms? {:advanced {:externs ["resources/jquery.js"]}}
13:36	TimMc	,{:advanced {:externs ["resources/jquery.js"]}}
13:36	clojurebot	{:advanced {:externs ["resources/jquery.js"]}}
13:36	TimMc	yup
13:37	autodidakto	TimMc: Heh. Yeah, I'm a HAML fan, and I wasn't overly excited when I checked out clojure's templating options...
13:37	TimMc	autodidakto: Luckily, the web server I am contemplating writing will not need to produce HTML.
13:38	autodidakto	TimMc: Web server? Sounds interesting. What are the servers clojure has now?
13:39	TimMc	I guess "web server" is ambiguous, isn't it. Web service, actually.
13:39	TimMc	I'm looking into noir.
13:39	autodidakto	TimMc: ahh ok I see
13:39	autodidakto	TimMc: Something interesting for public consumption?
13:41	TimMc	Nah, just an API server for something internal.
13:42	pandeiro	TimMc: speaking json or clo/j/ure?
13:45	TimMc	json
13:46	TimMc	It's an experimental platform with a couple of query endpoints and a UI server that talks to them... except we keep experimenting with new UIs, and it's time to separate out some of the business logic into an API server.
13:47	TimMc	I'm advocating for Clojure, since it's fast to write and rewrite.
13:47	TimMc	(off to a meeting)
13:49	autodidakto	TimMc: Keep fighting the good fight, homeboy
13:52	jaen	autodidakto: HAML is pretty cool, but I think Enlive isn't that bad either
13:53	devn	what do i need to do here? ##(map #(symbol (str "\u" %)) (range 800 850))
13:53	devn	,(map #(symbol (str "\u" %)) (range 800 850))
13:53	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid unicode escape: \u">
13:55	autodidakto	jaen: I'm reading about enlive right now. It's approach is different and interesting
13:56	devn	what do i need to do here? ##(map #(symbol (str "\u" %)) (range 8000 8025))
13:56	devn	whoops, figured out the issue, disregard
13:56	autodidakto	jaen: you recommend it?
13:57	devn	&(map #(symbol (str "\u" %)) (range 8000 8025))
13:57	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid unicode escape: \u"
13:57	devn	maybe not, heh
13:57	autodidakto	devn: heh
13:57	Chousuke	you sure you don't want "\\u"
13:57	jaen	autodidakto: actually, I didn't try it yet in anything big, but I like the approach
13:57	jblomo	does clojure expect to use sun/oracle java? does it reply on it?
13:57	Chousuke	+? :p
13:58	autodidakto	,(map #(symbol (str "\\u" %)) (range 800 802))
13:58	clojurebot	(\u800 \u801)
13:59	devn	autodidakto: nah, i figured out the problem
13:59	devn	it's this:
13:59	devn	,(str "\u" "8000")
13:59	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid unicode escape: \u">
13:59	devn	,(str "\u8000")
13:59	clojurebot	"耀"
13:59	devn	,(symbol "\8000")
13:59	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Invalid digit: 56>
13:59	devn	,(symbol "\u8000")
13:59	clojurebot	耀
14:00	devn	i want to build up a string that is \u8000, but str will make it a string and i want it as a symbol
14:00	autodidakto	hmm
14:00	devn	not sure how to accomplish that
14:01	autodidakto	,(symbol (str "\u8000"))
14:01	clojurebot	耀
14:02	autodidakto	,(symbol (str "\\u" "8000"))
14:02	clojurebot	\u8000
14:03	jblomo	,(char 8000)
14:03	clojurebot	\ὀ
14:03	pjstadig	you probably just want to use a method on java.lang.Character or something
14:03	devn	haha, doh
14:04	pjstadig	the \u is evaluated before the string object is even returned, so I don't think you have a chance of doing what you want
14:04	devn	nono that's fine -- i didnt know that char of int would handle higher values
14:04	Bronsa	,(str "\…u8000")
14:04	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unsupported escape character: \…>
14:04	Bronsa	,(str "\\u8000")
14:04	clojurebot	"\\u8000"
14:04	Bronsa	duh
14:04	autodidakto	hehe
14:05	devn	,(map char (range 8500 8510))
14:05	clojurebot	(\ℴ \ℵ \ℶ \ℷ \ℸ ...)
14:05	devn	That's really all I wanted. Thanks guys.
14:05	autodidakto	lol np
14:05	pjstadig	,(char (Integer/valueOf "8000" 16))
14:05	clojurebot	\耀
14:05	autodidakto	,(char (Integer/valueOf "8503" 16))
14:05	clojurebot	\蔃
14:06	autodidakto	,(char 8503)
14:06	clojurebot	\ℷ
14:06	pjstadig	,(char 0x8000)
14:06	clojurebot	\耀
14:07	autodidakto	,"clojurebot: you break it, you buy it"
14:07	clojurebot	"clojurebot: you break it, you buy it"
14:14	samaaron	how can i read a binary file into a byte array?
14:14	technomancy	samaaron: for some reason to-byte-array got dropped when clojure.contrib.io got promoted to clojure.java.io
14:14	samaaron	boo
14:15	technomancy	I think you can c.j.io/copy a j.io.File into a ByteArrayInputStream though
14:15	samaaron	oh, interesting
14:15	pjstadig	i was just going to suggest that
14:15	samaaron	technomancy: oh, and whilst we're chatting - lein2 fails for me when I'm trying to start a swank server and I don't have a network connection
14:16	samaaron	I think it's trying to grab latest snapshots or something
14:16	technomancy	samaaron: oh, but not lein1?
14:16	technomancy	oh, I see
14:16	samaaron	nope, lein1 wins
14:16	samaaron	oh, also..
14:16	technomancy	I just added an :offline profile to lein2
14:16	samaaron	lein2 blows up if I have a .#foo.clj file in my project
14:16	samaaron	which emacs kindly places there for edited files
14:17	technomancy	samaaron: do you have :aot :all set?
14:17	samaaron	nope
14:17	samaaron	i've never used aot in my life
14:17	technomancy	wonder why it would care about that
14:17	samaaron	sounds too much like aol for my liking
14:17	technomancy	oh buuuuurn
14:17	technomancy	yeah, aot sucks
14:19	technomancy	can you open issues for those two?
14:19	samaaron	sure
14:19	autodidakto	samaaron: I suppose you're going to complain about the new :fasebuk option, too, eh?
14:19	technomancy	thanks
14:22	samaaron	autodidakto: what on earth is the :fasebuk option?
14:22	gtrak	:fasebuk = files attributes since every batch unknown kool-aid
14:23	samaaron	sounds like gobbeldygook to me
14:23	gf3	ahem
14:23	gf3	it's obviously the FACEBOOK option
14:23	gf3	pfffft
14:23	samaaron	:-p
14:23	samaaron	i know that
14:23	samaaron	i just couldn't come up with similar puns in time
14:23	gf3	just like the new :maispaec
14:24	samaaron	:siri
14:24	autodidakto	new? only the overtone kids use that
14:24	samaaron	the overtone kids are a crazy bunch
14:25	samaaron	speaking of overtone, i just got my new nanoKontrol2 hooked up
14:25	samaaron	i can even light up the buttons too
14:25	samaaron	sweet
14:25	autodidakto	googles nice
14:26	samaaron	the bonus is that it fits in my bag
14:26	autodidakto	got plans for it?
14:26	samaaron	well, i'm always wanting to explore synth params
14:26	samaaron	and i'm sick of hitting C-x-C-e with new vals
14:27	samaaron	i want to slide a slider
14:27	samaaron	so now i can
14:27	samaaron	basically, i'll expose the controller as a map where the vals are atoms
14:28	samaaron	which store the latest vals for all the controller components
14:28	samaaron	so you can start usign it for whatever you want
14:28	samaaron	you can either poll with derefs or add watchers
14:29	autodidakto	sounds good. Having the right tools that let you quickly experiment is important for creativity.
14:29	gtrak	adding a watcher is kinda equivalent to skipping the atom altogether, no?
14:29	gtrak	event to event, i mean
14:30	samaaron	gtrak: yeah, overtone has an event stream you can listen in on
14:30	samaaron	but it should also be possible to ask for the current state
14:30	samaaron	without having to have had already observed all the events
14:31	samaaron	so we'll have both :-)
14:31	gtrak	right, nice
14:31	gtrak	I was just thinking about the same thing recently, using an atom for the state in an update loop
14:31	gtrak	in a little physics simulation that happens to use quill :-)
14:32	samaaron	gtrak: you mean like this monstrosity: https://github.com/samaaron/gen-art/blob/master/src/gen_art/awful_animated_rotated_lines.clj
14:33	gtrak	samaaron, something like that but much more monstrous, in fact, my update loop runs at 500Hz and the Processing loops polls it at 60 for drawing :-)
14:33	samaaron	gtrak: you should be careful about using atoms within the Quil draw loop - you need to ensure that they're local to a given sketch
14:34	gtrak	samaaron, yea, I did that, I used applet/applet directly instead of defsketch
14:34	samaaron	one way to acheive that is to declare your atoms in a call to set-state!
14:34	gtrak	there are still some subtleties about the dynamic scoping that I have to work through
14:34	samaaron	which stores the state within the atom
14:35	gtrak	if you're curious: https://github.com/gtrak/quilltest/blob/master/src/quilltest/core.clj for the loop and https://github.com/gtrak/quilltest/blob/master/src/quilltest/balls.clj for the main prog, though it's not ready yet
14:36	samaaron	wow
14:36	gtrak	I also proxied KeyListener so I could take control of keys
14:36	samaaron	you're doing much more work than necessary
14:36	gtrak	heh, I imagine :-)
14:36	gtrak	just messing around
14:36	samaaron	you don't need to do any of that proxying stuff
14:36	samaaron	I need to document stuff too :-)
14:37	gtrak	samaaron, that semaphore thing, I stole from stackoverflow, it's actually interesting :-)
14:37	samaaron	so, first declare all your sketch state in set-state! within your setup fn
14:37	gtrak	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5274619/investigation-of-optimal-sleep-time-calculation-in-game-loop
14:37	samaaron	then take a look at the handler options in https://github.com/quil/quil/blob/master/src/quil/core.clj#L4300
14:38	samaaron	you've got :key-pressed, :key-typed, :key-released
14:38	samaaron	I've done the proxying for you :-)
14:38	gtrak	yea, I tried to use the key-pressed functions, but it seemed like it was only happening once per frame? maybe I was doing it wrong
14:38	Raynes	samaaron: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/477 Respond, damn you
14:38	samaaron	oh yes, definitely once per frame
14:38	samaaron	at the end of a frame draw
14:39	gtrak	samaaron, mine is not once-per-frame
14:39	samaaron	oh, weird
14:39	samaaron	why do you want that?
14:39	samaaron	Raynes: what happened to your gentlemanly manners?
14:39	gtrak	I keep a set of currently pressed keys, then I look at the atom in my update loop
14:39	gtrak	it works well
14:39	Raynes	samaaron: They began to wane along with the length of time I sleep at night.
14:40	samaaron	Raynes: you should be careful about that - good sleep is super important
14:41	technomancy	Raynes: maybe it's all the elixir you're consuming
14:41	Raynes	Bahaha
14:41	gtrak	samaaron, it acts just like the midi device you just described, would you rather poll a keyboard at 60fps or act on it as an event stream?
14:41	technomancy	are you sure it isn't a jekyll/hyde kind of brew?
14:42	gtrak	basically I couldn't make the 'set of currently pressed keys' thing work unless I did that
14:42	Raynes	technomancy: My URI library is now in Elixir proper. Hard work payed off.
14:43	technomancy	so they accept pull requests then? =)
14:43	technomancy	that's cool
14:44	samaaron	gtrak: if i'm using the keyboard events to control my sketch, i'm happy to poll at the current framerate
14:44	samaaron	given that i can't do anything faster than the current framerate anyway (in terms of drawing)
14:44	gtrak	right, I think it's a consequence of my asynchronous update loop existing
14:44	Raynes	technomancy: Yeah, dude, it's like they want contributions. Blew my mind.
14:44	technomancy	must be refreshing
14:44	Raynes	technomancy: I actually have commit rights now though.
14:44	technomancy	sweet
14:45	Raynes	technomancy: To put it in perspective, I started using this language less than a week ago.
14:45	autodidakto	Is this elixir-lang you speak off?
14:45	autodidakto	of
14:45	Raynes	Aye
14:45	gtrak	samaaron, well, the key thing works great, but I notice there's a little jitter in the drawing, probably due to GC
14:46	autodidakto	I just stumbled across it's webpage. Looks interesting.
14:46	samaaron	gtrak: the problem is that processing isn't as effecient as it could be
14:47	gtrak	samaaron, I imagine I'll end up implementing most of it if I keep on this path, haha :-). I'm new to processing,awt,swing and stuff
14:47	technomancy	samaaron: according to some guy in #android they considered using processing for the android graphics, but they found they could get better perf out of an 800MHz phone with their own stuff vs processing on a 2GHz desktop =(
14:47	technomancy	"they" being google
14:47	samaaron	technomancy: doesn't surprise me at all
14:48	samaaron	I see Quil more as a fun toy and a prototying tool
14:48	samaaron	it's like a graphics gateway drug
14:48	gtrak	i do very much like how easy it is for me to visualize stuff and focus on business logic, without having to worry about the specifics so much
14:49	samaaron	gtrak: yeah, that's exactly the point :-)
14:49	samaaron	also, if you use the :opengl renderer, things tend to go faster too
14:49	Bronsa	WHAT'S A GOOD INTRO TO HASKELL?
14:49	samaaron	but you need lein2 for that
14:49	Bronsa	oh gosh, sorry for the caps
14:49	Iceland_jack	Bronsa: ...
14:49	samaaron	Bronsa: LEARN ME A HASKELL
14:49	gtrak	samaaron, I'll show it to you once I get collision detection working :-), I'm a few days away
14:49	Bronsa	thanks
14:49	samaaron	gtrak: awesome
14:49	Bronsa	didnt mean to yell it
14:50	samaaron	Bronsa: THAT'S OK!
14:50	Bronsa	now you're making me feel unconfortable.
14:50	samaaron	Bronsa: I suggest remapping your CAPS LOCK key to CTRL
14:50	samaaron	it's much handier that way
14:50	Bronsa	emacs?
14:50	clojurebot	emacs is best configured for Clojure with instructions at http://technomancy.us/126
14:51	samaaron	clojurebot: you're forgetting the overtone/live-coding-emacs config
14:51	clojurebot	No entiendo
14:51	Bronsa	i do actually like the position of CTRL
14:51	RickInGA	samaaron: that live coding config is fantastic
14:52	samaaron	RickInGA: why thank-you very much
14:52	RickInGA	or, at least I started to think so once I learned to live without a menu bar :)
14:52	samaaron	haha
14:52	llasram	That one line patch to clj-processing has really paid off! :-)
14:52	samaaron	llasram: haha :-)
14:53	RickInGA	samaaron: probably means nothing to you, but I am racked with guilt..... I am sooo sorry that I missed overtone hack night at clojure west
14:53	samaaron	RickInGA: ah, that's a shame - it was a lot of fun
14:53	samaaron	are you coming to EuroClojure?
14:54	RickInGA	samaaron I am trying to think up an excuse why I have to, and I just can't come up with one yet
14:54	samaaron	RickInGA: well I'm sure there will be plenty of other awesome opportunities to get your Overtone on
14:54	gtrak	cheaper wine?
14:54	RickInGA	I need to find out when my nephew is graduating from high school, if it is that weekend I have to stay here, if it is the previous weekend.... we'll just see
14:56	gtrak	samaaron, is quil purely a processing wrapper, or could it use some extra stuff?
14:57	gtrak	in terms of contributions
14:57	autodidakto	Bronsa: Book length, Learn You a Haskell has a free and well formatted online version. Lisperati guy (conrad or wutever) has a intro to haskell for lisp people tutorial too
14:58	emezeske	Bronsa: I second "Learn You a Haskell...". It was really, really good.
14:58	Bronsa	i'll go with that then
14:58	Bronsa	thanks all
14:58	RickInGA	emezeske is it available to read free online?
14:59	Raynes	http://learnyouahaskell.com/
14:59	autodidakto	http://learnyouahaskell.com/chapters
14:59	emezeske	RickInGA: Yeah, definitely!
14:59	emezeske	RickInGA: Although I'd recommend paying for it, it's that good ^_^
15:00	emezeske	RickInGA: It's under the CC license, so I think someone ported it to the ebook formats too
15:01	RickInGA	I have an online subscription from oreilly, and it is available there
15:01	RickInGA	does any one know if authors get any royalties when I read books on the oreilly site?
15:02	autodidakto	RickInGA: Real World haskell, from oreilly, seems to be the second best book
15:03	fdaoud	emezeske as in lein cljsbuild auto?
15:03	ibdknox	fdaoud: that's him
15:04	fdaoud	very cool--thank you for that :)
15:04	ibdknox	emezeske: you're famous!
15:04	emezeske	Woo!
15:04	emezeske	fdaoud: Thanks, that's nice to hear.
15:04	fdaoud	you guys are my heroes :)
15:04	amalloy	ibdknox is just trying to deflect his own unwanted internet fame
15:04	emezeske	amalloy: hahaha
15:04	ibdknox	amalloy: shhhh
15:05	samaaron	gtrak: at its core, Quil is just a processign wrapper, but there's definitely room for namespaces of associated goodies such as physics, scenegraphs etc.
15:05	fprefect	is there any advantage using send instead of send-off with agents?
15:05	gtrak	ah, you see where I am going with this, then :-)
15:05	mfex	hey guys, i wrote a demo for cljs <-> clj communication with browserchannel: https://github.com/thegeez/clj-browserchannel-demo
15:06	samaaron	gtrak: that's why i created the quil organisation ;-)
15:06	jaen	As for Haskell I second the Learn You A Haskell For Great Good then Real World Haskell route
15:06	RickInGA	mfex thanks for link
15:06	samaaron	i see a sea of sister projects
15:07	gtrak	coolio, I'll let you know if I come up with stuff, I can definitely break out the physics part of what I'm doing
15:08	gtrak	though I'm no expert, pretty sure it will explode all over the place unless I use some real algorithms
15:09	autodidakto	jaen: I think what haskell needs next is a good learn-by-example, play-while-learning style book/tutorial. Like the "Haskell for the Evil Genius" tutorial, but longer
15:10	rhc	autodidakto: isnt that supposed to be what "learn you a haskell" is?
15:10	jaen	autodidakto: well yes, that was pretty short
15:11	autodidakto	rhc: Doesn't seem that way to me. It's well structured, building block by building block, but not really "have fun while learning". It's kind of intense. methinks
15:11	autodidakto	rhc: but definately well written, funny, and enjoyable
15:16	Zoka	mfex: Looks good. At what number of concurrent connections one might see performance impact regarding sync vs async?
15:16	samaaron	technomancy: unfortunately you can't c.j.io/copy from a File to a ByteArrayInputStream
15:16	emezeske	autodidakto: I thought Learn You A... was one of the most "fun while learning" books I've read in a long time
15:17	mfex	Zoka: I have no idea, the current deployment on heroku runs out of allowed connections before threads
15:18	jaen	Certainly does good job of not scaring people away
15:18	autodidakto	emezeske: I believe you. I guess my criteria aren't very objective....
15:18	jaen	Haskell was my first foray into functional programming and I didn't bounce off with an attituted of FP being weird shit for weird people most people I know have ; d
15:18	Zoka	mfex: So Heroku has limit on connections?
15:19	emezeske	autodidakto: Well yeah, humor is pretty darn subjective :)
15:19	autodidakto	emezeske: I like the humor alot..
15:20	autodidakto	But after doing the first several chapters, I still wondered "ok and this is a superior way of doing things because..?" Like, nteresting little applications of what you just learned
15:21	mfex	Zoka, that's what I gathered. I haven't done any load testing comparisons of sync vs async
15:22	autodidakto	A lot of what I've seen, concerning the power of haskell, are clean implementations of algorithms and math stuff. I'd like to see more variety... I know there are games too, though
15:22	alfborge	Is there a better way to do this: (zipmap v (map #(and nil %) v))
15:22	alfborge
15:23	alfborge	I just want to create a hash-map with values key => nil for each key in v
15:23	amalloy	(zipmap v (repeat nil))
15:24	alfborge	amalloy: Ah, nice... thanks.
15:24	alfborge	Makes so much sense when you know it.
15:24	mfex	the demo is here: http://cold-stream-6156.herokuapp.com/index.html
15:24	amalloy	#(and nil %) is atrocious, btw. if you want a function that always returns nil, just use (constantly nil)
15:26	Raynes	Bahaha
15:26	autodidakto	amalloy: that sounds like a good self-deprecating clojure blog name. (constantly nil)
15:26	Raynes	That's pretty awesome though, amalloy.
15:26	amalloy	Raynes: what is?
15:26	Raynes	#(and nil %)
15:26	alfborge	amalloy: Thanks, that's why I'm here asking for how to do it better.
15:27	amalloy	yeah, i confess it is a clever trick. i kinda prefer #(do % nil) if we're looking for clever/short ways to write it
15:27	Raynes	alfborge: You'll come to love amalloy. He may tell you your code is disgusting, but he always helps you make it non-disgusting.
15:28	autodidakto	,(#(and nil %) 42)
15:28	clojurebot	nil
15:28	autodidakto	,(#(nil) 42)
15:28	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call nil, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
15:29	autodidakto	,(#(do nil) 42)
15:29	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox$eval83$fn>
15:29	Bronsa	,((fn [& _]) 42)
15:29	clojurebot	nil
15:29	autodidakto	ah
15:31	autodidakto	,((constantly nil) 42)
15:31	clojurebot	nil
15:34	Prasad	how do I break out of for loop in clojure? i am trying to iterate over a vector and on some condition being true, there is some action and I want to break out of the loop
15:34	autodidakto	Speaking of atrocious code, I'm looking for advice on my pull request on clojure.dongs (https://github.com/danlarkin/clojuredongs/pull/3#issuecomment-4769820)
15:34	Raynes	You can't 'break' out of a loop from any given location. You have to stop recuring at some point.
15:35	Prasad	when I am using for like a for each, how do I do that?
15:35	autodidakto	prasad, you're talking about the for [ list list :when cond] list comprehension thingie?
15:36	Prasad	for [i some-vector]
15:36	amalloy	:while
15:37	Prasad	(for [i list] (if (something) (break-after-doing (do-something) ) )
15:37	Prasad	wanted something like that
15:38	AimHere	amalloy's :while might be what you want
15:38	amalloy	if you're using `for` for side effects, it will only end in tears
15:38	amalloy	switch to doseq
15:38	autodidakto	it sounds like you looking through a list for the right thing, then doing something and exiting?
15:38	Prasad	autodidakto, yes
15:38	amalloy	oh, good point. don't use for or doseq
15:39	amalloy	(do-something-to (first (filter something the-list)))
15:39	AimHere	If this sequence is lazy enough, couldn't you wrap it in a take-while?
15:39	Prasad	its a vector not a sequence
15:39	autodidakto	filter the list, do run a function on the result
15:39	AimHere	take-while works happily on a vector too
15:40	hhutch	Prasad: a vector is an ISeq, doseq works on any ISeq
15:40	autodidakto	AimHere: I think he's like for a specific thing, then doing something with just that and moving on. not really manipulating the whole list
15:40	autodidakto	*he's looking for
15:41	AimHere	Well if he's just looking for a vector/sequence/whatever entry that fulfils a condition, then won't 'filter' work?
15:41	AimHere	Erm, no, sorry, because it'll keep riffling through the rest of the seq, unless you put a 'first' in it and it's lazy or sth
15:42	amalloy	&(instance? clojure.lang.ISeq [1])
15:42	lazybot	⇒ false
15:42	autodidakto	AimHere: it looks like amalloy is way ahead of us
15:42	AimHere	So he is
15:42	amalloy	hhutch: vectors are seqable, not seqs. your point about filter is fine, just the details (ie, ISeq) are wrong
15:43	Prasad	so should I be trying filters?
15:43	autodidakto	,(println (first (filter #(= "yes" %) ["yes"])))
15:43	clojurebot	yes
15:44	kurtharriger	is it possible to compile a clojure class file that (:imports a jova class without the static initializers in the java class being run?
15:46	TimMc	amalloy: ##(#(do %& 45) 1 2 3)
15:46	lazybot	⇒ 45
15:46	TimMc	Moar general purpose.
15:46	amalloy	yes, i'm aware
15:46	TimMc	and still terrible
15:47	amalloy	kurtharriger: no. it's not possible to do that in java, either
15:47	kurtharriger	when using zookeeper-clj :aot compilation will result in a bunch of zookeeper log output during compile... I found it seems to be that simply (import java class) runs the static initializers... not sure if there is a way to prevent that during clojure compile
15:47	Prasad	autodidakto, what does that line do? println..
15:47	kurtharriger	yeah but you can compile java without running the code... kind of a weird mix here where compiling clojure code runs also runs it
15:48	autodidakto	Prasad: type (doc println) in your repl
15:48	Prasad	autodidakto, I mean the complete s-exp that you suggested
15:49	TimMc	kurtharriger: What's the use-case?
15:49	amalloy	it's kinda gross that zookeeper logs/activates just when you load the class. surely it should only do that if you call some methods at it
15:49	autodidakto	Prasad: ok so... ["yes"] is the vector... i should have done ["yes" "no" "maybe"] as a better example
15:49	amalloy	you can kinda fake it, if you're willing to forego the import
15:50	amalloy	using the Class/forName trick to delay loading to runtime, if you don't need the class at compile-time (but then you can't, eg, typehint it)
15:50	kurtharriger	It looked like my project was attempting to connect to zookeeper during compile, which would fail if zookeepr is not running
15:50	autodidakto	Prasad: I filter that vector with an anonymous function (using the #( %) shortcut). It tries to find the word "yes"
15:50	Raynes	Man, where is brehaut. We need to talk about music and the merits of coffee.
15:50	Prasad	autodidakto, aah, got it, thnks
15:50	kurtharriger	it seemd that simply importing a java class with static initializer is causing the issue... but not sure how to prevent it from doing that... perhaps I could move the import into the defn
15:50	autodidakto	Prasad: first grabs the first result (there could be many "yes"'s), then i print it :)
15:51	autodidakto	Prasad: np
15:51	gtrak	kurtharriger, eval
15:52	alfborge	amalloy: Thanks, that's why I'm here asking for how to do it better.
15:52	alfborge	sorry, wrong buffer...
15:52	TimMc	Raynes: brehaut is in NZ. Next question?
15:53	Raynes	TimMc: Yes, but he is always around when I'm around. At least, usually.
15:58	gtrak	kurtharriger, check out https://github.com/clojure/tools.logging/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/logging/impl.clj#L41 for an example
16:00	devn	just compiled core.cljs to C
16:00	devn	crazy.
16:00	alfborge	Is there a reason why the following won't work: (map #(ref-set m (assoc @m % %)) input)? It's within a dosync and m is a ref.
16:01	alfborge	to a hash-map
16:02	kurtharriger	gtrak: ah cool thanks
16:02	gtrak	np
16:02	replaca	dnolen: does core.match do any binding? I want to match a map/vector nested crazy combo and pull some values out in addition to verifying the structure.
16:02	gtrak	kurtharriger, actually the line above is the one that actually causes the class to get loaded
16:03	gtrak	the eval is there so the code doesn't have to compile to it
16:03	dnolen	replaca: it does do binding - word of caution core.match has many edge case bugs and few patches at the moment.
16:03	kurtharriger	ok, I'll play around with it
16:04	replaca	dnolen: is there a binding example? I don't see anything in the readme (but I may be blind)
16:04	dnolen	replaca: :as
16:04	kurtharriger	it looks like its just reading config and logging config values not actually trying to connect
16:04	dnolen	if you want to capture a whole part of the pattern and give it name, otherwise just using variable will create bindings
16:04	Raynes	alfborge: Using ref-set is a 'side effect'. You don't want to use map for that. Besides that, ref-set is a huge warning side. You almost certainly don't need it for what you're trying to do. Do you have a larger example of what you're aiming for that we can look at?
16:05	replaca	ahh, ok so {:a a} is like (let [a (get ... :a)] ...) ?
16:05	gtrak	kurtharriger, well, if you want more control over when a class gets loaded, you'll have to use reflection, as in that example
16:05	alfborge	Raynes: I'm playing with the Anagram kata and I'm generating an anagram dictionary.
16:05	kurtharriger	I don't need aot here either but I find that during development if I compile with aot I find typos and such I wouldn't find otherwise till runtime
16:07	pipeline	all we need is a flymake-clojure ;)
16:08	ibdknox	dnolen: what'd you show for your demo the other day? :)
16:08	alfborge	Raynes: I was just surprised that the ref-set within the map didn't work.
16:08	gtrak	pipeline, flymake-clojure is paredit, I thought :-)
16:09	pipeline	gtrak: I can't stand paredit for whatever reason
16:09	deech	Hi all, does anyone know if Clojure has a Spring DSL? Something like this: http://code.google.com/p/dynaspring/
16:10	dnolen	ibdknox: I have a whole file that I can run in Sublime Text 2 running against Chrome (I don't reveal that to the end)
16:10	gtrak	well, not sure what else would count as 'syntax' to be checked
16:10	dnolen	ibdknox: I show the basic of the language - yesterday I showed core.logic running, people were pretty impressed by that.
16:10	dnolen	ibdknox: folks were also pretty impressed by GClosure compression
16:10	ibdknox	:)
16:10	samaaron	how can i read in a file containing binary data into a byte array?
16:10	samaaron	dnolen: I started reading the Reasoned Schemer yesterday
16:11	samaaron	I need to find some jam to make the required stains
16:11	ibdknox	dnolen: you're using st2 for your clojurescript stuff?
16:14	alfborge	How about this? How would I make this work? (hash-map (map #('(sort %)) v))
16:15	samaaron	alfborge: what are you trying to do?
16:17	gtrak	alfborge, map creates a lazy sequence, a ref-set is a side-effect, it will only perform it when you realize the seq
16:18	alfborge	gtrak: Thanks, that explains it. :)
16:18	gtrak	np :-)
16:18	alfborge	samaaron: The latter is an attempt to, given a vector, create a hash map of the items in the vector with the sorted item as key and the item as value.
16:20	samaaron	alfborge: so is v a seq of seqs?
16:20	alfborge	v is a seq of strings
16:20	samaaron	(def v ["foo" "bar" "baz"])
16:21	samaaron	and what would you like the output to look like?
16:21	alfborge	{"abr": "bar" "abz": "baz" "foo": "foo"}
16:22	samaaron	,(sort "bar")
16:22	clojurebot	(\a \b \r)
16:22	samaaron	so you have to deal with the fact that you'll get a seq of chars
16:22	samaaron	,(apply str (sort "bar"))
16:22	clojurebot	"abr"
16:22	alfborge	I don't really need to :)
16:22	alfborge	I don't mind a seq of chars
16:23	mfex	,(group-by sort ["foo" "bar" "baz" "zab"])
16:23	clojurebot	{(\f \o \o) ["foo"], (\a \b \r) ["bar"], (\a \b \z) ["baz" "zab"]}
16:23	mfex	handles doubles as well
16:24	alfborge	mfex: nice
16:24	samaaron	mfex: oh awesome
16:24	samaaron	hadn't thought of group-by
16:24	pandeiro	ibdknox: any idea what would be causing weird reader errors (map literal requires even number of forms) from noir.cljs.watcher/start or thereabouts? off-hand? (i have skip aot)
16:24	alfborge	mfex: But I'd love to know how I'd make my naive attempt work as well.
16:24	alfborge	mfex: As that paints a picture of a hole in my understanding. :)
16:24	samaaron	,(into {} (map (fn [s] [(apply str (sort s)) s]) ["foo" "bar" "baz"]))
16:24	clojurebot	{"foo" "foo", "abr" "bar", "abz" "baz"}
16:24	ibdknox	pandeiro: gist of server.clj?
16:25	ibdknox	what version noir-cljs?
16:25	samaaron	alfborge: that's more like your solution
16:25	gtrak	ugh, I needed group-by last night, thanks mfex :-)
16:25	samaaron	but group-by is far more elegant
16:25	gtrak	this is why I hang out with you guys
16:25	alfborge	samaaron: thanks, and I totally agree
16:26	pandeiro	ibdknox: http://sprunge.us/MhbO
16:27	ibdknox	pandeiro: which version of noir-cljs?
16:27	pandeiro	0.3.0
16:28	ibdknox	not sure
16:29	Raynes	ibdknox: Howdy friend.
16:29	pandeiro	i tried to build the cljs-template scaffolding in an existing project by copying stuff over manually
16:29	pandeiro	i guess i can eventually create the template and migrate my work over
16:29	mattmitchell	i have a ring/compojure app here, and I want to test that one of my handlers properly sets a session value... anyone know how i can do that?
16:30	ibdknox	Raynes: hola
16:30	ibdknox	pandeiro: can you put up the full stack trace?
16:31	TimMc	devn: What are you on about.
16:34	pandeiro	ibdknox: son of a bitch is working now, i am completely baffled... sorry...
16:34	ibdknox	haha
16:34	ibdknox	yay!
16:34	ibdknox	:)
16:34	weavejester	mattmitchell: You can just check the :session key on the response
16:34	alfborge	#(do [(sort %) %]) <- Is this right or is this atrocious?
16:35	alfborge	As opposed to (fn [s] [(sort s) s])
16:35	samaaron	i much prefer the latter
16:35	alfborge	Any rules or style guides saying what's more apropriate?
16:35	mfex	alfborge, that do thing is imho nasty and for golf only
16:36	alfborge	golf?
16:36	samaaron	alfborge: golf - writing the shortest program possible
16:36	TimMc	alfborge: (juxt sort identity)
16:37	mfex	when you want #() to return a vector use #(vector key value) or instead of map use (for [i items] [key value])
16:37	mattmitchell	weavejester: that's what I thought, but it's not there. I must be doing something wrong hmm.
16:37	alfborge	TimMc: interesting, thanks. :)
16:37	TimMc	oy, that's mine!
16:38	Somelauw	goldcode?
16:38	Raynes	gloldcode.
16:38	weavejester	mattmitchell: I'm not sure how it can not be there if you're setting the session on the response...
16:38	johnkpaul	using clojurescript, is there a way to use the closure compiler to give type warnings for unimplemented protocols?
16:38	zamaterian	le
16:38	weavejester	mattmitchell: I mean, you've added a :session key to the response map you're returning, right?
16:39	weavejester	mattmitchell: And you're then saying that the response map you've added the :session key to doesn't have the :session key?
16:39	mattmitchell	weavejester: yes. It must be the app test helper I'm using
16:39	TimMc	Raynes: Well, I guess xe's been juxted. Close enough.
16:39	weavejester	mattmitchell: Hm… Are you testing before or after the standard middleware?
16:40	mattmitchell	weavejester: i believe its after, but clearly i'm needing to dig a bit on this one
16:41	weavejester	mattmitchell: If it's after, then the session middleware will have already consumed the :session key.
16:41	mattmitchell	weavejester: ahh ok
16:41	weavejester	mattmitchell: If you're using an in-memory session, you can supply your own atom and look inside it.
16:42	beffbernard	Anyone know if nth on a string is constant time?
16:43	weavejester	On a completely different topic, I really hate how Google documents things sometimes. Or rather doesn't. :(
16:43	mattmitchell	weavejester: hey thanks for your help!
16:43	maio	how should I write InputStream to file?
16:44	weavejester	maio: clojure.java.io/copy
16:44	maio	weavejester: thanks
16:47	alfborge	I'm off. Thanks a lot for all the help. Wish I'd come here sooner :)
16:48	pandeiro	what do most of you use for use/require substitutes at the cljs repl?
16:49	ibdknox	pandeiro: just re-evaluate the ns form
16:50	pandeiro	ibdknox: that's what i figured, thanks
16:51	espringe	I have a clojure.lang.Cons of characters, and I'd like to create a string. How is this possible?
16:51	espringe	I can't find a 'flatmap' style function, and flatten doesn't do anything
16:52	eggsby	flatmap... catmap?
16:52	eggsby	mapcat
16:52	eggsby	or (apply str [\a \b \c \d \e \f \g])
16:53	eggsby	&(apply str '(\a \b \c \d \e \f \g))
16:53	lazybot	⇒ "abcdefg"
16:53	espringe	Ah, great. Thanks eggsby
16:53	espringe	mapcat is really what im after
16:53	espringe	thanks again
16:54	eggsby	np espringe
17:00	dnolen	samaaron: cool!
17:00	samaaron	dnolen: it's beautifully written
17:00	samaaron	i'm only at p20 though
17:00	samaaron	it takes a lot of brain power to push through
17:00	dnolen	ibdknox: not my own stuff, but it's great for presentations - the no-distraction mode is great for focusing on code during presentation.
17:01	dnolen	samaaron: it is beautiful written and incredibly deep. I had to read it 4 or 5 times I think.
17:02	samaaron	dnolen: I have the feeling I'll have to do the same
17:03	dnolen	samaaron: it's a radically different way of thinking about programs - you have to unlearn quite a bit I think. Once you do it seems obvious and simple :)
17:03	samaaron	yep, i get that feeling already
17:05	dnolen	samaaron: I think we'll be able to get a lot of mileage out of core.logic - jim duey's work on getting it to work under fork/join is still blowing my mind.
17:05	samaaron	what's he up to?
17:06	eggsby	what are you guys discussing? the reasoned schemer?
17:06	jaen	Huh, I just googled for st2 not realizing you mean sublime text and found a REPL plugin for it, how cool is that ; D
17:06	samaaron	eggsby: yup :-)
17:06	dnolen	samaaron: he figured out how to make core.logic run it's goal in parallel. Will & Dan et al have been working on that problem for a long time. jim duey got it working well enough for most tests to pass and not cause zebrao to take a perf hit - which is insane IMO.
17:06	samaaron	woah
17:06	eggsby	ah, I am just reading 'The Seasoned Schemer', only just finished The Little Schemer last month
17:07	samaaron	is he seeing any performance improvements?
17:08	dnolen	samaaron: no, I think he's taking a break I think it required a lot of hammock time - even though in the end the modifications seem simple.
17:08	dnolen	samaaron: there's a fork-join branch on the main repo so anyone can take a look and he has a good blog post on it - http://www.clojure.net/2012/03/26/Messin-with-core.logic/
17:09	samaaron	i guess it's a granularity problem
17:10	dnolen	samaaron: probably - but it's promising that perf didn't decrease which is usually the case.
17:14	samaaron	dnolen: for sure :-)
17:29	jsabeaudry	What is the appropriate way to access /dev/mem from clojure?
17:29	jsabeaudry	From what I have read you can't mmap device files
17:30	pandeiro	would it be possible to run a browser repl and a noir server in the same java process?
17:33	TimMc	Does this still represent a sane way of using Clojure in a Jetty + Maven context? http://cemerick.com/2010/01/08/sane-web-development-with-compojure-jetty-and-maven/
17:34	cemerick	TimMc: not really
17:34	Lajla	Chousuke, mitä perkeleen vittua on ##(let [some-datum (list (symbol "Minä palvon Hänen Varjoansa"))] (= some-datum (read-string (print-str some-datum))))?
17:34	lazybot	⇒ false
17:35	TimMc	What has changed?
17:35	Raynes	Everything.
17:35	TimMc	Other than that.
17:35	TimMc	&"ping"
17:35	lazybot	⇒ "ping"
17:36	mk	what are the various notations for the bots?
17:36	weavejester	& and ,
17:36	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/and
17:36	weavejester	&(+ 1 1)
17:36	lazybot	⇒ 2
17:36	weavejester	,(+ 1 1)
17:36	amalloy	and also ##(inc 1)
17:36	lazybot	⇒ 2
17:36	clojurebot	2
17:37	mk	~help
17:37	clojurebot	http://www.khanacademy.org/
17:37	TimMc	hahaha
17:37	cemerick	TimMc: depends on what your environment is
17:37	amalloy	(inc clojurebot)
17:37	lazybot	⇒ 9
17:38	mk	that does not seem functional
17:38	cemerick	if you are starting maven from the command-line, then it's pretty straightforward to ensure that your webapp starts an nREPL or swank server when it is loaded, whichyou can then connect to using emacs+SLIME or Counterclockwise or leiningen or repl-y or vimclojure, etc.
17:38	TimMc	oooh, nREPL, right
17:39	TimMc	I'd basically like to be able to stand up a noir instance and hack on it live, but also have a Maven-y way of packaging it up for use with a launcher, in this case Tanuki
17:40	mk	so &atstart and # #anywhere trigger the 1.3 bot, while ,atstart triggers the older one. ~ is the dictionary, and (inc name) does something inappropriate with usernames
17:40	mk	is that all?
17:41	TimMc	mk: And $ is the command trigger for lazybot
17:41	TimMc	$fire
17:41	mk	$isthatlike~
17:41	TimMc	$kill
17:41	lazybot	KILL IT WITH FIRE!
17:42	mk	$google clojure
17:42	lazybot	[Clojure - home] http://clojure.org/
17:42	mk	so not just a string-string map
17:42	cemerick	TimMc: Any ring app is amenable to packaging as necessary; I wouldn't let those requirements impact your interactive development objectives
17:43	cemerick	i.e. if you like hacking with SLIME, keep doing that, and leave the packaging bits off to the side
17:43	TimMc	I think I've some homework and archaeology to do.
17:44	TimMc	(to learn about how this stuff is done in the standard Java case)
17:47	wei_	is there a "time" function that returns the time elapsed instead of printing it out? (I'm writing an http load test client)
17:47	Iceland_jack	(time (def a (printing-function))?
17:48	Iceland_jack	s/printing-//
17:50	amalloy	wei_: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/47b2cf43e404c906/876d8f439b3a8334?show_docid=876d8f439b3a8334
17:53	wei_	amalloy: ty! exactly what i needed
17:56	prasad	guys, is there semantic difference between (first (filter #(not (bit-test 2r000000000 %)) [4 3 1 5 7 0 2 6 8])) and replacing a vector with one defined earlier in the code
18:01	chouser	no
18:02	prasad	&((first (filter #(not (bit-test 2r000000000 %)) [4 3 1 5 7 0 2 6 8])))
18:02	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
18:02	chouser	&(first (filter #(not (bit-test 2r000000000 %)) [4 3 1 5 7 0 2 6 8]))
18:02	lazybot	⇒ 4
18:02	prasad	&(first (filter #(not (bit-test 2r000000000 %)) [4 3 1 5 7 0 2 6 8]))
18:02	lazybot	⇒ 4
18:03	prasad	chouser, if I replace the vector with one defined before as (def moves [4 3 1 5 7 0 2 6 8])
18:03	prasad	it returns 0
18:03	prasad	instead of 4
18:03	prasad	m I going wrong somewhere
18:04	chouser	yeah, the problem must be elsewhere, or 'moves' doesn't have the value you think it does.
18:05	prasad	chouser, i think i got it, i had changed some stuff, and forgot to recompile things
18:05	prasad	working with counterclockwise
18:05	prasad	thnkx
18:06	prasad	chouser, is there any way to display the binary value upto 8 bits for number returned by this expr ?
18:08	chouser	what do you mean?
18:08	chouser	&[1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0]
18:08	lazybot	⇒ [1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0]
18:09	chouser	&(apply str [1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0])
18:09	lazybot	⇒ "10011010"
18:09	chouser	sorry, gotta run.
18:14	prasad	chouser, i mean from 4 get 100
18:15	prasad	chouser, ok c ya l8r
18:26	jblomo	if you try to add metadata to an object not implementing IMeta, it'll be silently ignored?
18:28	amalloy	it'll explode violently
18:28	amalloy	but surely it's easier to just try it than to ask
18:29	jblomo	,^:has-meta Class
18:29	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
18:29	jblomo	,(meta ^:has-meta Class)
18:29	clojurebot	nil
18:29	jblomo	,(meta ^:has-meta [])
18:29	clojurebot	{:has-meta true}
18:29	jblomo	fair enough
18:31	ipostelnik	will code like this (doseq [n (take 1000000 (iterate inc 0))] ....) actually create an internal list 1M entries while doseq runs?
18:35	technomancy	Zoka: hey, having some fun with ringmon; thanks
18:35	technomancy	do you know why I'd periodically get org.codehaus.jackson.JsonGenerationException: Cannot JSON encode object of class: class javax.management.ObjectName: java.lang:type=OperatingSystem?
18:35	ipostelnik	apparently the answer is yes
18:35	technomancy	ipostelnik: it will create a lazy seq
18:35	ipostelnik	why can't leading entries of of lazy-seq get gc'ed?
18:36	technomancy	they will get GC'ed if no references exist to them
18:36	technomancy	you must be holding on to the head of the seq
18:39	amalloy	jblomo: you're not attaching metadata to the object java.lang.Class, you're attaching it to the symbol Class
18:40	amalloy	&(meta (with-meta Class {:has-meta true}))
18:40	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Class cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IObj
18:41	ipostelnik	technomancy, the simple case does work as expected
18:41	ipostelnik	what qualifies as holding onto the head?
18:42	jblomo	amalloy: oh interesting. so why is the return value java.lang.Class in the first example?
18:42	amalloy	because that's what the symbol Class resolves to once you eval it
18:42	amalloy	&Class
18:42	lazybot	⇒ java.lang.Class
18:42	jblomo	aah
18:42	jblomo	cool, thanks
18:42	arohner	ipostelnik: that means you have a reference to the beginning of an infinite seq
18:43	technomancy	ipostelnik: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5698122/explanation-of-lose-your-head-in-lazy-sequences
18:43	amalloy	&' ^:has-meta Class
18:43	lazybot	⇒ Class
18:43	amalloy	&(meta (quote ^:has-meta Class))
18:43	lazybot	⇒ {:has-meta true}
18:47	samaaron	technomancy: so this is what i ended up with w.r.t. binary file slurping: https://gist.github.com/2231226
18:48	technomancy	samaaron: man... that sucks
18:49	technomancy	samaaron: I think at my last job we ended up copying to-byte-array out of clojure.contrib.io
18:49	samaaron	technomancy: i'm not proud of it - but it does work
18:49	samaaron	i just ended up translating an java algorithm
18:49	technomancy	is it worth opening a bug re: c.j.io/copy?
18:50	technomancy	seems reasonable to expect it to work with an input-stream arg
18:50	samaaron	good question
18:50	samaaron	do you have any idea how i might go about that - i've not used any of the jira nonsense
18:50	samaaron	perhaps an email do the dev mailing list might be a good start?
18:51	technomancy	just opening a bug is not too horrible
18:52	technomancy	but yeah, probably emailing clojure-dev first would be good
18:59	slyrus	technomancy: fwiw, trying to do java interop from abcl makes me appreciate lein :)
19:01	technomancy	slyrus: heh; cool
19:17	technomancy	is passing :join? false in the opts map of run-jetty supported by other ring handlers?
19:17	technomancy	or is it specific to ring?
19:18	weavejester	It's not part of a standard, but other adapters might implement it.
19:18	technomancy	weavejester: thanks; good to know
19:18	technomancy	better not rely on it here then
19:29	ForSpareParts	Could anyone answer a noob question?
19:30	aperiodic	only if you ask it
19:30	ForSpareParts	fair enough
19:30	ForSpareParts	I'm working through some simple exercises to get a handle on Clojure
19:30	ForSpareParts	and I want to try storing some functions in a map
19:31	ForSpareParts	I'm not exactly sure what the right syntax is to pull them out (or to store them, I guess)
19:31	ForSpareParts	I've tried something like
19:31	ForSpareParts	{"a" (+) "b" (-)}
19:31	ForSpareParts	and various similar things
19:32	ForSpareParts	I'd like to be able to look up a function in the map and apply it to args somewhere else. How should I do that?
19:32	arohner	ForSpareParts: + refers to the fn itself. (+) tries to call the fn with no args
19:32	arohner	if you have the fn, you can call (apply + [1 2 3])
19:32	arohner	,(apply + [1 2 3])
19:32	clojurebot	6
19:32	arohner	apply takes a fn, and a seq of args to use
19:33	ForSpareParts	arohner: brilliant, thanks!
19:34	ForSpareParts	I'm still a little confused about apply, though -- why would I use that instead of just invoking the function?
19:34	eggsby	sometimes you need to because the context demands it
19:35	eggsby	what if a function generates something that you want to use as parameters for a function?
19:36	ForSpareParts	OK. So I'd use if, say, a function returned a sequence, and I wanted to feed that sequence into another function?
19:36	eggsby	(apply custom-fn (gen-params my-data))
19:36	eggsby	yes
19:36	ForSpareParts	cool
19:36	ForSpareParts	thanks again, guys
19:36	eggsby	if you have a list like [1 2 3 4] and you want to sum them you couldn't sum [1 2 3 4] since summing a vector with nothing makes no sense
19:36	eggsby	however, (apply sum [1 2 3 4]) makes perfect sense
19:37	eggsby	toodles ForSpareParts
19:37	ForSpareParts	later!
19:40	mk	incidentally, summing a vector with anything makes no sense as well
19:41	qbg	mk: Unless it is a vector sum function
19:41	mk	qbg: right, or the map function
19:42	mk	another way to explain apply is to say that it injects the function into the start of the given list
19:43	qbg	Or tacks on the seq as extra arguments
19:43	mk	yeah, that's the other way to see it
19:43	qbg	Especially the vararg form of apply
19:45	mk	qbg: the vararg form?
19:45	qbg	&(apply + 1 2 [3 4])
19:45	lazybot	⇒ 10
19:47	mk	I see what you mean, though I'd say (apply + [1 2]) is the 0-vararg form
19:48	mk	anyway, in that case it injects everything on the left into the list on the right
19:58	Lajla	Is there a difference in expensiveness to (apply + [1 2 3]) and (apply + '(1 2 3)) ?
20:00	amalloy	no
20:05	alexyakushev	Meh, this {{set}} thing is not even funny anymore
20:08	emezeske	alexyakushev: Yeah, no kidding
20:08	alexyakushev	I wonder why some people love to complicate things so much
20:09	aperiodic	i haven't followed many mailing lists, but it seems like the clojure mailing list is fairly easy to troll
20:10	technomancy	aperiodic: either that or the trolls who have decided to infest it are just damn good at what they do
20:10	Frozenlock	Is there a way to empty a namespace without restarting slime/swank?
20:10	lynaghk	don't get any big ideas aperiodic, I live right down the street.
20:10	technomancy	Frozenlock: remove-ns, I think
20:10	Frozenlock	Seems like it, thanks!
20:10	emezeske	I lean toward technomancy's idea. The perpetrator on the set thread is, otherwise, very intelligent seeming (from his other posts to the ML)
20:15	aperiodic	I usually just ignore any thread that gets more than five or six replies in a day
20:22	amalloy	"looks like a great idea. don't waste your time discussing it on the mailing list: put together a patch and attach it to a jira issue so core can tell you what they think of it"
20:26	cemerick	aperiodic: that probably describes any group of generally well-meaning folk
20:29	aperiodic	cemerick: good point. the clojure community's general helpfullness and enthusiasm leads to troll-feeding.
20:32	cemerick	that, and the newness of the language leaves open a whole new set of attack vectors
20:33	cemerick	and lispers are notoriously trollable anyway, it seems
20:39	halarnold2000	does anyone know where one should put certain files using lein's uberjar? I have a configuration file that has def's for vars, the I use with load-file. I put this file at the root of the project and it works fine with lein run. But the file doesn't get into the uberjar. Any help? should I put the configuration file under src, say in the resource dir?
20:39	zakwilson	If I want to spit a string and have it escaped, is there an easy way to do that?
20:40	technomancy	halarnold2000: highly recommend doing config with (read-string (slurp (io/resource "config.clj"))) instead of load-file
20:40	technomancy	but yeah, it goes in the resource/ dir
20:41	halarnold2000	and the "config.clj" should be in the src/recource somewhere?
20:41	technomancy	right
20:41	halarnold2000	thanks..I'll look at read-string
20:42	halarnold2000	any clue as to why (read-string (slurp (io/resource "config.clj"))) is mo betta than load-file? technomancy?
20:43	technomancy	halarnold2000: it's a clearer separation of declarative files vs executable
20:44	halarnold2000	ah..thx
20:44	ivan	this is one of those little things, but the implementation of drop-last surprised me and continues to amuse
20:52	technomancy	Zoka: https://github.com/technomancy/lein-webrepl/blob/webrepl-client/src/leiningen/webrepl_client.clj
20:52	technomancy	not ready for prime-time yet, but this should allow you to do an inferior-lisp connection to a running heroku dyno
20:56	ibdknox	woah, what?
20:56	technomancy	ibdknox: have you seen ringmon?
20:57	ibdknox	oh, not tcp
20:57	ibdknox	yeah
20:57	technomancy	aye, a CLI client for ringmon basically
21:04	halarnold2000	technomancy: I'm getting a funny exception when trying the io/resource : IllegalArgumentException No implementation of method: :make-reader of protocol: #'clojure.java.io/IOFactory found for class: nil clojure.core/-cache-protocol-fn (core_deftype.clj:495)
21:04	halarnold2000	Can I assume that I have some dependency clash? I'm on 1.3 of core
21:04	halarnold2000	hmm "class nil"
21:04	technomancy	if io/resource returns nil it means it couldn't find the file on the classpath
21:04	technomancy	maybe restart your repl if the resources/ dir is newly-created
21:05	halarnold2000	got this also at the lein compile stage
21:05	halarnold2000	but you've gotten me further
21:07	Zoka	technomancy: it looks interesting! By the way I have cheshire embedded, since I had problems with clj-json
21:08	Zoka	technomancy: so you can get out of the dependevies in project.clj
21:18	Zoka	technomancy: I am in the middle of adding some new stuff, as soon as I fisnish I will try out webrepl-client with the latest (not yet on github) .
21:20	cemerick	Zoka: I think I found the source of the rogue threads you found
21:22	seancorfield	anyone using lein expectations?
21:22	seancorfield	it seems to "hang" for about a minute at the end of its run before exiting...
21:23	Zoka	cemerick: was it not closin properly?
21:23	amalloy	seancorfield: sounds very much like an agent threadpool problem
21:23	cemerick	Zoka: https://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/nrepl/transport.clj#L38 :-P
21:24	cemerick	Haven't confirmed it, but that expr stinks bad.
21:24	cemerick	I think I probably intended for the close fn to be wrapped with one that stopped the future.
21:25	amalloy	i don't see anything obvious after a quick scan of the source, but they're probably starting up a future or an agent somewhere
21:34	Frozenlock	I toyed a little with webserver in clojure, enough to send a file to the webserver using the browser (wrap-multipart-params). Now I'm more interested in sending directly to a clojure webserver from a desktop clojure application. Is this relatively straightforward?
21:35	seancorfield	amalloy: thanx, i'll go digging
21:36	xeqi	Frozenlock: have you looked at clj-http or http.async.client?
21:37	Frozenlock	No, will do immediately, thanks!
21:54	Frozenlock	http://neotyk.github.com/http.async.client/docs.html looks like an org-mode user :)
22:04	methodmissin	Good evening, friends
22:05	jweiss	I'm trying to do an interviewstreet.com problem in clojure, just for fun. Here is the code, it fails because of slow performance. I tried turning on warn-on-reflection, didn't get any warning. Turned on jvisualvm and see clojure.lang.Reflector.getMethods() eating 98% of cpu time. what do i do to narrow it down? https://refheap.com/paste/1466
22:05	echo-area	methodmissin: Good evening. I read that as ``good night'' :-P
22:06	methodmissin	I have a question! I can't figure out Refs, Atoms, and ^:dynamic definitions. I'm working on Land of Lisp and it calls for a big and small that get updated by (bigger) and (smaller) functions.
22:07	methodmissin	For a binary search, guess-my-number game. The simplest game in the book. :P
22:08	emacsen	methodmissin, That book's written for CL I think
22:09	methodmissin	Yep. I'm doing it in clojure.
22:09	methodmissin	Not easy.
22:09	methodmissin	But very instructive.
22:09	autodidakto	hi method. still working on Land of lisp?
22:09	emacsen	methodmissin, sadly Conrad doesn't come on iRC
22:09	methodmissin	autodidakto, Thanks for remembering me. :) Yeah, It keeps me blogging, even if my blogs aren't very insightful, I need the practice to work up to the insightful stuff.
22:09	autodidakto	emacsen: Do you know why not?
22:10	autodidakto	methodmissin: what's your blog link?
22:10	emacsen	autodidakto, because he has a life?
22:10	methodmissin	http://carlthuringer.com
22:10	autodidakto	emacsen: ahh, the normal excuse for not being on IRC
22:12	autodidakto	methodmissin: SecurityNow fan? :)
22:13	methodmissin	Of course! A PDP8 emulator lies in my future for poking and learning machine code when I get past a couple more practical languages. Clojure's popular among my peers and I've been excited about it since attending SCNA and seeing Aaron Bedra last year.
22:15	autodidakto	methodmissin: gibson keeps saying he's going to retire and write the pdp8 OS from scratch :P
22:15	autodidakto	methodmissin: I think the world needs a secure, open source VoIP solution first though
22:15	methodmissin	autodidakto, I think some months ago he said he'd grown tired of pdp8s after building like 40 of them and programming the blinkenlights. :D
22:16	autodidakto	(another project he once mentioned but put to the side)
22:16	autodidakto	methodmissin: and recently he discovered javascript and was like "oh wow this is easy and fun". Welcome to the 90s, gibson
22:16	autodidakto	downloading the lastest SN as we speak, hehe
22:17	methodmissin	Heh, yep. Javascript is something else I fiddle with a lot but never devote much serious time to.
22:18	methodmissin	At least I try not to write any that I'm embarassed about.
22:18	autodidakto	methodmissin: yeah i've been avoiding it for 10 years... something about crufty languages that should have died a long time ago...
22:18	methodmissin	Looking forward to a talk next week on ClojureScript. The future!
22:18	autodidakto	methodmissin: your magic hat rails app could use some jquery/ajax magic when you add a task, though :)
22:19	autodidakto	Oh, next week?
22:19	methodmissin	Lol, it still works, of course. It has a few outstanding problems.
22:19	methodmissin	Yeah, a co-worker is presenting.
22:20	autodidakto	Cool, where do you guys work at? Presenting where?
22:21	methodmissin	Groupon, Chicago
22:22	autodidakto	Group -> users in this group, no back button. I just removed myself, hehe
22:22	autodidakto	methodmissin: I remembered your name, btw, because me comes from the rubies too
22:22	methodmissin	Yeah, that's one of the issues. Is that so, autodidakto?
22:22	methodmissin	Zomg I'm famous!
22:23	autodidakto	I think rubyist are sympathetic to clojure/lisp in general because of ruby's heritage, and because of our shared quest of Real Ultimate Programming Power (and Happiness)
22:25	methodmissin	Indeed. And learning clojure makes me happy even if it's frustrating. There's a time learning any language when you have to get over the hump of basic syntax and core functions.
22:26	autodidakto	methodmissin: and just stupid basic things like trying to get out of the repl
22:26	methodmissin	Well, I can clj my way out of a paper bag, a wet one.
22:26	autodidakto	I'm typing (quit), (exit), :q, contrl x, control d, heh
22:27	methodmissin	Ctrl-D works for Lein for me, but yeah. Glad my general knowledge of UNIX has grown since I became a full-time mac user and programmer.
22:27	methodmissin	Try all exit-program things
22:28	methodmissin	Ooh, Just thought of Ctrl-z
22:28	methodmissin	That might be useful.
22:28	autodidakto	Also about ruby: we're more tolerate of using primitive data structures (hashes, arrays) and their useful and varied API instead of always jumping to making a class for it.
22:28	autodidakto	methodmissin: ah yeah. mac user here too. power of unix when you need it, but good design for everyday stuff
22:29	methodmissin	Yes. I've read a few cool blog posts that suggest just that. Why use a class when a Hash is just as good? That sort of thing.
22:30	autodidakto	methodmissin: I've even occasionally seen people go crazy and subclass hash and add a method or two. But I don't know about that.
22:32	autodidakto	It's liberating though, to just use powerful primitives. and not think about constructing the perfect noun
22:33	autodidakto	simple, flexible concepts like namespaces make a lot of sense. Using a module to namespace methods, comes with baggage (making sure the methods are in the singleton-class, etc).
22:33	autodidakto	</rant>
22:34	methodmissin	Hah, yes, I'm just starting to figure out module patterns, but getting a lot of exercise with core ruby.
22:35	methodmissin	And Rails, which confounds me daily.
22:35	methodmissin	Did you know that {:foo => "bar"}.first returns [:foo, "bar"]?
22:35	methodmissin	I guess that makes more sense when working with a hash with more than one key, actually, but only slightly more sense.
22:36	autodidakto	hehe, well, I guess it could return a hash
22:37	methodmissin	I'd expect that more than a different type, but anyways, I want to talk about Land of Lisp
22:38	autodidakto	methodmissin: Ok one last thing though while no one is complaining about being offtopic: go grab Metaprogramming in Ruby and earn your name :)
22:39	methodmissin	Good advice.
22:40	methodmissin	I'll see if it's in the library tomorrow
22:40	methodmissin	And if not, request it
22:40	autodidakto	methodmissin: i doubt I can be of much help with LoL, but ask away
22:41	technomancy	Zoka: the webrepl-client is a bit strange because I don't really think it's much use outside the context of something like heroku, so maybe it should be in its own plugin
22:41	methodmissin	Folks, excuse me reposting what I said just before autodidakto arrived. :)
22:41	methodmissin	I can't figure out Refs, Atoms, and ^:dynamic definitions. I'm working on Land of Lisp and it calls for a big and small that get updated by (bigger) and (smaller) functions.
22:42	methodmissin	I tried a bunch of permutations and read some about each, and dug around in Joy of Clojure for alternatives/explanations, but it's in the later chapters and I can't understand most of what is written there.
22:42	autodidakto	methodmissin: also, there are some other blog/projects about translating lisp into clojure, they might give you clues (there's one on On Lisp, and another that hasnt begun yet, but will try to do SICP)
22:43	autodidakto	methodmissin: oh, you're trying to have a global var hold state for the guessing game
22:43	methodmissin	Yeah
22:43	meiji11	I'm struggling through that book right now. joy of closure.
22:43	autodidakto	Refs and Atoms and dynamic definitions go way beyond that, that's why the explanations are confusing you
22:44	methodmissin	Which, it occurs to me, is kinda un-Clojure, and I also noticed that the guessing game exploits the repl for its functionality, so it's a pretty hard use case to find example code for.
22:44	autodidakto	meiji11: is it your first clojure book?
22:44	meiji11	sure is.
22:45	meiji11	i read a lisp book by seibel years ago, which I've long since forgotten.
22:45	autodidakto	methodmissin: and to tell you the truth, it's really bad style, the guessing game. Conrad said he had to do messing bad practices to keep the reader's motivation high, and then show the better practices later
22:45	autodidakto	meiji11: Joy of Clojure should be your second or third book
22:45	meiji11	heh, I thought it would be easy to pick up a lisp again.. any recommendations for a first?
22:46	autodidakto	meiji11: Right now there's the partially out of date "practical clojure" the slightly out of date "Clojure in Action", and new editions of the "Programming Clojure" and "Clojure Programing" (or something) are abouth to come out this month
22:46	autodidakto	online vers already out
22:46	meiji11	right, I was thinking of buying the rough cuts of programming closure.. you say the full version's out online?
22:47	autodidakto	I think the (print?) release date is this month, which means it should be finalized or nearly so
22:47	emacsen	autodidakto, will it be more up to date than the other clojure book? For someone like me, I knew clojure pre-1 and now there's a lot that's unfamiliar
22:48	autodidakto	ahh, Programming Clojure is out April 5th. so I think it should be ready to read...
22:48	autodidakto	http://pragprog.com/book/shcloj2/programming-clojure
22:48	autodidakto	emacsen: That's the word
22:48	methodmissin	autodidakto, I'm glad he acknowledged that in the Ruby Rogues podcast that inspired me to pick up the book.
22:49	meiji11	ah, okay. here I thought you were referring to the one by christophe grand or whomever.
22:49	technomancy	emacsen: 90% of the changes since pre-1.0 can be summed up by "don't use monolithic contrib" =)
22:49	autodidakto	meiji11: A, "Clojure Programming" by oreilly
22:50	meiji11	right.
22:50	autodidakto	meiji11: that's about to come out even sooner. this month it says -> http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920013754.do
22:50	cemerick	autodidakto: it's at the printers now, AFAIK
22:50	meiji11	I'm feeling a little like mr. burns in the supermarket aisle with bottles of "ketchup" and "catsup" right now..
22:51	methodmissin	meiji11, They both taste the same
22:51	autodidakto	methodmissin: ah, you're way ahead of me then. But yeah, I don't know clojure best practices for setting global state
22:51	methodmissin	How about worst practices? :D
22:51	methodmissin	Another of my goals is to work back through old chapters and revise the projects into better clojure code
22:52	Frozenlock	Oh I can write that!
22:52	autodidakto	meiji11: I think "Programming Clojure" (prag programmers / Stuart Halloway) has been the defacto first book
22:52	technomancy	meiji11: at least you don't have to choose between "Programming Scala", "Programming Scala", and "Programming in Scala" (all different books)
22:52	autodidakto	cemerick: Thanks, good to hear
22:52	meiji11	I'll go with Halloway then. Thanks.
22:53	cemerick	meiji11: just FWIW: http://www.clojurebook.com
22:53	autodidakto	meiji11: np
22:54	autodidakto	cemerick: hehe why shilling?
22:54	emacsen	technomancy, keyword args, interfaces, and some function renames
22:54	technomancy	emacsen: renames?
22:55	cemerick	autodidakto: I'm a coauthor of the afore-linked book. Most tech folks are allergic to self-promotion. :-)
22:55	emacsen	technomancy, I would swear some funtions have had a renam
22:55	emacsen	but what do I know
22:55	technomancy	emacsen: only contrib functions
22:55	technomancy	oh, and the metadata syntax changed
22:55	emacsen	technomancy, plus, the workflow is different now, lein and friends didn't exist back then :)
22:55	autodidakto	cemerick: ahh. makes sense. Yeah well, tech guys need to get better at marketting :)
22:56	cemerick	I'd agree. I certainly have no problem with it, as you can see.
22:57	technomancy	emacsen: yeah, it's the ecosystem that's changed the most
22:57	technomancy	we have libraries now =D
22:57	emacsen	the ecosystem?
22:57	autodidakto	cemerick: well, i mentioned that Programming Clojure has been the defacto, but yours (Clojure Programming) is new effort, right? Coming out at the same time, it remains to be seen which will be better (we should all get both of course :P)
22:57	meiji11	eh, I'll support the new book. not often you run across one of the authors.
22:57	oakwise_	cemerick: there's a difference between off topic spam and very relevant references that just happen to be self authored!
22:58	emacsen	technomancy, yeah now we just need a fancy name for serialized clojure and we'll be all set
22:58	autodidakto	yeah, I'm checking out the text on clojurebook.com and it sounds compelling
22:58	cemerick	oakwise_: sure. I never hesitate to toss out the link. I just ask for forgiveness afterwards to cover my social-signaling bases. :-P
23:00	cemerick	autodidakto: Yeah, we're the new authors on the block. Our focus (i.e. focusing on on-boarding Ruby/Python/Java devs via their existing skills) is unique AFAIK.
23:00	cemerick	It's either going to flop or fly :-)
23:01	meiji11	that sounds appealing. I'm coming at this from more of a python thing, ie an imperative languages with lispy features..
23:01	eggsby	when you have hard text file dependencies in a lein project, is there any way to get them to bundle with the uberjar it builds?
23:03	autodidakto	cemerick, meiji11: yeah, that's angle i'm coming from too
23:03	autodidakto	*that's the
23:04	cemerick	autodidakto, meiji11: there are direct comparisons between the four languages throughout the book as appropriate, e.g. http://twitpic.com/92nsxr
23:04	technomancy	eggsby: try the resources/ dir
23:04	methodmissin	cemerick, Neato
23:05	eggsby	technomancy: ya, I got it to work a few seconds after I asked the question... :p
23:08	methodmissin	eggsby, The best kind of proactive question asking. :)
23:09	amalloy	seancorfield: is the resultset-seq created by with-query-results lazy/dynamically-scoped? i'm trying to transition from clojureql and i can't tell if i can do something like (do-stuff-with (with-query-results rows ["SELECT ..."] rows)), or if i have to do all my processing inside the dynamic scope of with-query-results (like with with-open
23:09	amalloy	)
23:09	autodidakto	I've noticed that articulating my question often leads me right to the thing i've overlooked
23:13	autodidakto	methodmissin: Have you tried Atoms for your global var hack thingie? (def high-guess (atom 100), @high-guess, (reset! high-guess 50)
23:14	methodmissin	autodidakto, I was trying that, gimme a few minutes with that example in the REPL. :)
23:14	methodmissin	Found a stackoverflow on the subject too
23:16	autodidakto	methodmissin: If you do figure it out, be sure to rewrite as a proper functional program (i mean, passing the low and high guess around as parameters :) )
23:17	methodmissin	autodidakto, We'll see. :D
23:18	autodidakto	cemerick: in your twitter avatar, you kind of look like mr bean with that face you're making
23:18	cemerick	heh, yeah
23:18	cemerick	I've been told multiple times I should update the avatar…
23:22	seancorfield	amalloy: sorry, was away reading stuff... resultset-seq is such that, yes, you need to do all your processing inside with-query-results otherwise you'll get an exception
23:22	seancorfield	it's part of what i really don't like about c.j.jdbc at the moment
23:22	amalloy	thanks. not surprised, was just hoping i wouldn't have to deal with that
23:22	methodmissin	autodidakto, Getting a fn as the return value from (bigger)... Even though the last statement is @big
23:22	seancorfield	after using it extensively at world singles, there are lots of changes to the API i plan to add :)
23:23	amalloy	really? given the difficulty of managing resources/scopes in a dynamic context, it seems like you can't do anything much better
23:23	methodmissin	hold on, refheap...
23:24	methodmissin	https://refheap.com/paste/1468
23:24	methodmissin	@big is #<ch2$bigger$fn__279 ch2$bigger$fn__279@17a73d30>
23:25	autodidakto	,(def big (atom 50))
23:25	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
23:25	autodidakto	then @big
23:25	seancorfield	amalloy: a functional API - SQL operations that take an optional function to apply to the result set or to the rows but whose result is non-lazy is much easier to use
23:25	autodidakto	gives you fn?
23:25	autodidakto	checking refheap..
23:25	methodmissin	I'm using a (fn [] stuff...) to set the new value of big
23:25	methodmissin	or try to
23:26	methodmissin	mmm (fn) returns a function, not the return value of the function....
23:26	methodmissin	what to do.
23:28	amalloy	are you trying to learn clojure, or common lisp? all the unnecessary side effects in that code make me want to cry, irrespective of the fact that currently it doesn't work
23:28	autodidakto	amalloy: it's a long story
23:29	autodidakto	amalloy: he's trying to translate some beginner, nonfunctional clisp code into clojure
23:29	amalloy	right, i remember
23:29	autodidakto	(as a translation of the Land of Lisp book, which starts out this way)
23:29	cemerick	seancorfield: You could always ape what I did in clutch to make the dynamic scope optional. It's worked out well, I think.
23:30	amalloy	cemerick: are you talking about the dynamic/optional database-connection var?
23:30	cemerick	amalloy: I think we're talking about the same thing, yes.
23:31	sholva	hey
23:31	amalloy	i don't think that's really germane to the issue of returning a lazy-seq that depends on a result-set, though. yours is about the user needing to establish a dynamic scope, but the jdbc issue is that the db returns a lazy-seq depending on some resources that it needs to somehow clean up "when you're done"
23:31	autodidakto	methodmissin: this is painful lol. can you paste in the LoL clisp code?
23:31	autodidakto	sholva: hi
23:31	methodmissin	autodidakto, Sure! just a moment
23:31	methodmissin	Dead Tree Format, gotta type
23:32	autodidakto	methodmissin: ouch sorry
23:32	amalloy	if you want to fake some common-lisp with lots of setfs, don't try to use any of clojure's advanced concurrency constructs. just use atoms and reset!/deref them
23:32	seancorfield	amalloy: you could always wrap your entire program in with-connection :) :) :)
23:33	amalloy	seancorfield: does that work, though? you're closing the resultSet anyway
23:33	autodidakto	amalloy: yeah that's i'm having him do. (i was just guessing at the time. nice to see your confirm that :) )
23:36	methodmissin	CLISP code: https://refheap.com/paste/1470
23:37	autodidakto	methodmissin: dear god, that ash function... hrm
23:38	autodidakto	methodmissin: I dont think making your own ash counts as a translation
23:38	autodidakto	methodmissin: is more like trying to embed clisp in clojure :P
23:38	methodmissin	ash: https://refheap.com/paste/1471
23:39	methodmissin	I could've just used bit-shift-right instead of ash, since it never shifts left.
23:39	methodmissin	I implemented it because it was fun. :)
23:39	autodidakto	methodmissin: i think he's just using it as a "cleaner" hack to get an average, no?
23:39	methodmissin	Yeah, that too...
23:41	autodidakto	methodmissin: it's BASIC written in clisp... hehe
23:41	methodmissin	lol
23:43	autodidakto	i think ash and the 1- 1+ stuff could be replaced with call to average + rounding/floor/truncate (wutever)
23:44	choffstein	Is it possible to add pre/post conditions to anonymous functions?
23:47	aperiodic	choffstein: not with #(...) syntax, i'd think, but with the (fn [x ..] ..) form, i don't see why not
23:49	methodmissin	I'm stumped.
23:51	mbriggs	methodmissin: still trying to work through that clisp?
23:51	autodidakto	mbriggs: talk some sense into him
23:51	methodmissin	mbriggs, Hahah
23:51	methodmissin	Yes
23:52	choffstein	aperiodic: okay, thanks
23:53	mbriggs	methodmissin: land of lisp is a neat book for learning clisp, but clojure is a bit of a different beast
23:53	mbriggs	methodmissin: you just wouldnt take the same approaches to those kinds of problems
23:54	methodmissin	mbriggs, Yes, I know you're right.
23:54	methodmissin	I was encouraged to see http://www.adrianmouat.com/bit-bucket/2011/02/common-lisp-clojure-and-evolution/ apparently made it though.
23:54	technomancy	clisp is actually a particular implementation of common lisp
23:54	autodidakto	mbriggs: the author uses certain ugly hacks that you can get away with with multiparadigm-swiss-army-knife clisp that clojure just outright rejects
23:54	technomancy	probably not what you meant to say
23:55	mbriggs	yeah s/clisp/common lisp/
23:57	autodidakto	methodmissin: that book is stressing you out, you need to have a little fun. checkout my practicing of multimethods -> https://refheap.com/paste/1473
23:58	mbriggs	methodmissin: the thing is, if your goal is to learn clojure, check out joy of clojure or clojure in action
23:58	mbriggs	methodmissin: both are really good books, and will get you there way easier then land of lisp
23:58	autodidakto	methodmissin: yeah, learn good clojure first, then come back and translate LoL for fun :)
23:59	methodmissin	mbriggs, Joy of clojure is underneath Land of Lisp on my desk right now. ;) I've been poking into it for answers and explanations. I read the first couple of chapters already but it gets heavy, fast. There's a lot of recommendations for books in the scrollback.