#clojure – 2011-12-12

2011-12-12

00:00	fhd	amalloy: Reminds me of memory management in OS theory. Read-only pages are normally shared in a similar manner.
00:03	Scriptor	structural sharing is also helped out by clojure not changing the actual tree unless it has 32 elements it can add all at once
00:03	Scriptor	I think that's right
00:04	amalloy	eh?
00:04	Scriptor	er, not change the tree
00:04	amalloy	that sounds basically untrue
00:04	Scriptor	I meant creating a new tree
00:05	Scriptor	until 32 elements are added, it just does copy-on-write and creates new arrays
00:06	amalloy	i'd love to be proven wrong, but that doesn't sound like anything clojure does that i'm aware of. do you have a reference?
00:06	Scriptor	the above-mentioned link
00:07	Scriptor	amalloy: wait, not that link, this one http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/02/01/understanding-clojures-persistentvector-implementation/
00:07	Scriptor	specifically in the 3rd code listing there
00:08	Scriptor	System.arraycopy(tail, 0, newTail, 0, tail.length);
00:08	Scriptor
00:08	Anniepoo	howdy - I'm returning to Clojure after an absence. My dev environment's on 1.2 I'm upgrading to 1.3
00:08	Anniepoo	is there still a separate clojure-contrib jar?
00:10	Scriptor	amalloy: direct link to the current code https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/PersistentVector.java#L170
00:11	amalloy	ah, interesting. so it keeps a second direct pointer to the last chunk-of-32 elements of the vector, no matter where in the tree those are located
00:12	amalloy	and can therefore avoid doing copying on the way back to the root until those are finished
00:12	Scriptor	amalloy: they're not actually in the tree in the first place, when you do something like (cons 1 []) it just makes an array
00:13	amalloy	right
00:13	Scriptor	and yep, this avoids copying the nodes going up to the root every time you cons
00:14	Scriptor	same with conj, it seems
00:14	amalloy	Scriptor: (conj x y) == x.cons(y)
00:15	amalloy	pretty cool, thanks. it's been a long time since i read that article and i didn't get the significance at the time
00:15	Scriptor	amalloy: not with vectors though, righT?
00:15	Scriptor	regarding conj and cons
00:15	amalloy	Scriptor: the .cons method is just named badly - it's conj
00:16	amalloy	&(.cons [1 2 3] 4)
00:16	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 3 4]
00:16	Scriptor	ah
00:16	amalloy	well. "badly". it's named in a way that is only accurate historically
00:20	Scriptor	amalloy: heh, better to actually know clojure and be hazy on this than the reverse :)
00:26	devn	I know about fnparse and parsatron -- I seem to remember a few other parsers out there in clojure land. Anyone know what I'm forgetting?
00:26	devn	parsley just came to mind
00:26	duck1123	does gloss count?
00:26	devn	got a link?
00:27	devn	woops, parsley is not what i was looking for
00:27	Scriptor	this gloss? https://github.com/ztellman/gloss
00:27	devn	yeah gloss isn't really what i'm looking for
00:27	devn	im looking for parsec clones/rewrites
00:27	devn	i forgot clarsec, but it's a little difficult to read
00:27	duck1123	it's for parsing binary data, but wouldn't serve the purpose?
00:28	devn	duck1123: im looking for PEG stuff
00:29	devn	parser combinators
00:30	devn	http://brehaut.net/blog/2011/fnparse_introduction -- you know, when i read the tests i wasn't sure about fnparse, but it looks really nice
00:30	Raynes	devn: Also abandoned.
00:30	Raynes	devn: If you plan to use it, might want to also plan to maintain it.
00:30	Scriptor	what's the currently maintained one, if any?
00:30	Raynes	Parsley.
00:31	ihodes	what about clj-peg? http://lithinos.com/clj-peg/
00:31	ihodes	was recently updated, if memory serves
00:36	Raynes	org.apache.commons.compress.archivers.tar.TarArchiveInputStream
00:36	Raynes	Jesus.
00:36	Anniepoo	anybody know where the clojure version is stored for slime/swank for windows?
00:39	duck1123	Raynes: seems perfectly reasonable
01:02	ben_m	I need to make a nicely organised list of libraries I discover from just idling here.
01:03	ben_m	I bet sometimes in the future I'll think to myself "Mhh, I need to fiddle with some bits, but that's a pain in Clojure. Meh, seems like I'll use C." because I won't think about gloss.
01:12	tomoj	is there a workaround (e.g. lein feature?) for http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-322
01:14	accel	if you do, you should make it into a big index
01:14	accel	and call it clojure_yahoo
01:15	accel	then, when you use eigenvectors to rank (based on which libraries use which other libraries), it cal be called clojure_google
01:15	tomoj	I mean, am I correct that: if project A and project B both depend on project C, A depends on B, C is not AOT'd, B is; then A may get B's version of C because B includes C's classfiles in the jar, barring manual cleanup of B's jar?
01:48	spoon16	what is the appropriate way to "forward" kw-args to another function?
01:48	spoon16	,(letfn [(a [& kw-args] (b kw-args)) (b [& kw-args] (apply hash-map kw-args))] (a))
01:49	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: null>
01:59	amalloy	spoon16: my personal opinion is: try not to do that. make your "real" functions take actual hashmaps, and add variadic keyword versions of them as sugar only
01:59	amalloy	it's both inefficient and awkward to do this forwarding, as you've discovered
02:00	spoon16	yeah, that's the direction I ended up going… but I was wondering if there was some way to do it cleanly that I was missing
02:00	spoon16	thanks
02:00	amalloy	well, if you changed a to (apply b kw-args) it would be fine
02:03	spoon16	amalloy: that only works in this example though, if you have any other arguments you end up having to build do something like (apply b (flatten [arg1 arg2 kw-args]))
02:03	spoon16	which seems a bit gross
02:03	amalloy	uh. no, and also flatten is 100% wrong there
02:04	amalloy	(apply b arg1 arg2 kw-args)
02:05	spoon16	sorry… I meant (filter (not nil)) not flatten
02:05	spoon16	if kw-args is nil then apply will pass it through… which I guess is ok here… but if you want to destructure kw-args into a map it will fail
02:06	spoon16	because (= kw-args '(nil)) instead of nil
02:07	spoon16	(apply hash-map '(nil)) also fails
02:07	spoon16	the right thing to do is do what you recommended earlier and make b just take kw-args as a first class arg instead of & kw-args
02:08	amalloy	it is not the case that kw-args is (nil)
02:13	spoon16	you are right… let me figure out what's going on in the larger piece of code I have and see if I can distill it down
02:16	spoon16	amalloy: in my case I'm not using apply appropriately
02:17	spoon16	so using apply does work pretty nicely
02:18	spoon16	still, I think it's even cleaner to just have b explicitly take a kw-args parameter instead of making it optional
03:36	lnostdal	i read http://cemerick.com/2009/11/03/be-mindful-of-clojures-binding/ , then tried -- but i get different results: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126429#1
03:36	lnostdal	perhaps a clojure 1.2.x vs. 1.3.x thing? .. i'm testing with a 1.4 snapshot though
03:36	lnostdal	what do you guys get?
03:38	tscheibl	.
03:42	kral	when does 1.4.x will be released as stable?
03:47	Chousuke	lnostdal: that looks like the correct result to me, because of the set!
03:51	raek	lnostdal: I think work has been done to address the "Bindings do not migrate across thread boundaries." problem
03:52	raek	iirc, bindings migrate to a new thread if you use 'future' (which pmap does internally)
03:52	raek	...since clojure 1.3
04:08	lnostdal	getting really tired of nullpointerexception, unknown location ..
04:08	lnostdal	raek, that's good news i guess
04:09	raek	lnostdal: unknown location? have you looked in the stack trace?
04:09	raek	it should point to the exact point where it was thrown
04:09	lnostdal	i wonder if it migretes with regards to agents too
04:10	lnostdal	yeah, i guess it can't find location because the stacktrace ends up some other place (perhaps related to data for it not migrating across threads :P)
04:10	lnostdal	or some slime/swank try block doesn't get included in spawned threads or something
04:11	raek	you cannot catch an exception thrown by one thread in a catch block in another thread
04:11	raek	since the control flows are unrelated
04:12	raek	if you use a future, you will get the exception when/if you dereference it
04:13	lnostdal	yeah, but i guess slime or swank-clojure or something handles some cases; sets up the context needed to catch from some threads but not all
04:13	lnostdal	because it does catch e.g. (future (/ 42 0)) .. that ends up in the slime debugger
04:13	lnostdal	at least on clojure-1.4 here
04:13	raek	lnostdal: that's because the repl prints the future
04:13	raek	which will dereference it
04:14	raek	lnostdal: try this: (def x (future (/ 42 0)))
04:15	lnostdal	uh, a future doesn't execute before it is derefed? ..
04:16	lnostdal	in that case the docstring is wrong i think
04:16	raek	no, it does. but the exception is stored in the future.
04:16	lnostdal	ah, cool
04:16	raek	you get that exception when you try to look at the result of the future
04:17	lnostdal	i guess that makes sense in a world without restarts anyway
04:17	raek	futures are really made for asynchronous tasks where you want to start a bunch of processes in the background and then retrieve their values
04:18	raek	if you want a long running background thread, you should include your own try/catch block at the top level of the future body
04:18	raek	since in that case there is usually not another thread that "waits for the result"
04:19	lnostdal	yeah, loop+recur .. with a sleep at the outside in case something gets stuck in fail-over-and-over-again mode :P
04:19	lnostdal	(potentially flooding logs or out / err)
04:24	tscheibl	really funny are exceptions thrown when a lazy sequence gets realized ...
04:26	lnostdal	yeah, sometimes i wonder if what i really want is just green threads (spread over hardware threads; like done in e.g. haskell, would be nice) so i can do classic blocking i/o and exceptions and other things "make sense" again
04:26	lnostdal	no epoll .. no async .. just blocking calls with regards to http and socket i/o .. log i/o .. and db i/o .. simple
04:27	lnostdal	but i don't know .. i haven't thought about this much .. perhaps it won't solve any problems
04:28	tscheibl	don 't think so... real life is async, too... and we managed to handle it somehow for some thousend
04:28	tscheibl	years now :)
04:28	tscheibl	..thousand
04:29	lnostdal	while i'm on a roll; "Unable to resolve symbol: blabla in this context" ..what context??? give me a file name at least! :>
04:29	tscheibl	.. and using clojure it becomes quite manageable
04:29	tscheibl	i do a (print-stack-trace e*)
04:29	tscheibl	in these cases
04:31	tscheibl	..just do a (use 'clojure.stacktrace) beforehand
04:34	lnostdal	yeah, or sometimes evaling the core.clj buffer with the (ns ...) in it will yield a proper message with filename and even line numbers
05:05	AWizzArd	Moin moin.
09:53	TimMc	So... the EPL doesn't have a viral clause?
10:15	raek	TimMc: it explicitly says that a piece of code that merely uses the EPL'ed code as a library is not a derivative work of the EPL'ed code, so the library does not place any restrictions on the licence of code that uses the library
10:18	raek	(this is in contrast to the GPL, which interprets "derivative work" differently)
10:19	raek	so the EPL is not a viral license
10:42	TimMc	Ah, it's in the definition of derivative work, then. I see.
11:01	raek	TimMc: why would that be unenforcable? this is the case for all strong copyleft licenses, if I understand you correctly...
11:02	raek	I don't think there i any difference between "X is bolted onto Y" and "Y is bolted onto X" in legal terms
11:03	raek	it's more like "Z = the union of X and Y. Z is a derivative work of both X and Y."
11:05	TimMc	raek: Imagine a license that said that since your program links to libc (or whatever), libc has to be relicensed.
11:05	TimMc	Ugh, still didn't express that well. Never mind, it's a stupid joke,
11:06	TimMc	and I hate hitting comma instead of period at the end of a message, because it makes me feel like I have to type more.
11:07	raek	a crazy license indeed... :-)
11:42	sirn	What's the best way to check if item exists in a coll? e.g. in Python I could do "5 in [1, 2, 3, 4, 5] #=> True"
11:42	lucian	any idea if i could find videos for http://clojure-conj.org/schedule ?
11:42	gtrak`	,(doc contains?)
11:42	clojurebot	"([coll key]); Returns true if key is present in the given collection, otherwise returns false. Note that for numerically indexed collections like vectors and Java arrays, this tests if the numeric key is within the range of indexes. 'contains?' operates constant or logarithmic time; it will not perform a linear search for a value. See also 'some'."
11:42	sirn	gtrak`: thanks!
11:42	gtrak`	keys though
11:43	gtrak`	,(doc some)
11:43	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns the first logical true value of (pred x) for any x in coll, else nil. One common idiom is to use a set as pred, for example this will return :fred if :fred is in the sequence, otherwise nil: (some #{:fred} coll)"
11:43	sirn	ah
11:43	Wild_Cat	sirn: that won't work
11:43	Wild_Cat	contains? checks whether the index exists
11:43	sirn	yeah, just tried it
11:43	Wild_Cat	that is, (contains? n vector) just checks whether the nth item exists
11:44	gtrak`	,(some #{:theKey} [1 2 3 4 5])
11:44	clojurebot	nil
11:44	gtrak`	,(some #{:theKey} [1 2 3 :theKey 5])
11:44	clojurebot	:theKey
11:44	Wild_Cat	,(some #(= %1 2) [2 3 4 5])
11:44	clojurebot	true
11:44	Wild_Cat	,(some #(= %1 1) [2 3 4 5])
11:44	clojurebot	nil
11:45	sirn	that one works, thanks!
11:45	cmiles74	You could do a list comprehension...
11:46	TimMc	&(.contains [:a :b :c] :b) ; sirn
11:46	lazybot	⇒ true
11:47	gtrak`	cmiles74, some does that for you: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/f5f827ac9fbb87e770d25007472504403ed3d7a6/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L2353
11:47	cmiles74	Gotcha'.
11:47	sirn	TimMc: nice! Is that .contains a Java stuff?
11:48	gtrak`	yes
11:48	TimMc	sirn: It uses the fact that all the Clojure collections implement the java.util.Collection (or whatever) interface.
11:49	sirn	TimMc: ah, I see.
11:49	TimMc	&(instance? java.util.Collection [])
11:49	lazybot	⇒ true
11:49	blakesmith	TimMc: That's useful to know, thanks.
11:53	TimMc	I can't tell where it gets that interface from, though.
11:56	TimMc	Oh, got it: ##(isa? (class []) java.util.List)
11:56	lazybot	⇒ true
11:57	Wild_Cat	doesn't List specify .add, though?
11:57	Wild_Cat	I thought vectors were immutable?
11:58	TimMc	Yeah, but java.util.Collection specifies that some operations may be rejected.
11:58	cemerick	,(.add [] "foo")
11:58	clojurebot	#<UnsupportedOperationException java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException>
11:58	Wild_Cat	good point.
11:59	TimMc	Wild_Cat: cf. java.util.Collections#unmodifiableMap
12:00	TimMc	&(.containsAll [1 2 3 4] [2 3])
12:00	lazybot	⇒ true
12:00	Wild_Cat	&(.contains [2 3 4] 2])
12:00	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: ]
12:00	Wild_Cat	&(.contains [2 3 4] 2)
12:00	lazybot	⇒ true
12:00	Wild_Cat	&(.contains [2 3 4] 1)
12:00	lazybot	⇒ false
12:00	TimMc	It's a sight nicer than using "some".
12:01	TimMc	*abusing
12:01	Wild_Cat	aye.
13:03	micahmartin	,ns
13:03	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
13:04	micahmartin	,(binding [ns (the-ns 'clojure.core)] (do (println ns) (lazy-seq [ns])))
13:04	clojurebot	#<Namespace clojure.core>
13:04	mbac	what's the right way to terminate repeatedly?
13:04	clojurebot	(#<Namespace sandbox>)
13:05	micahmartin	Does anyone know why lazy-seq looses it ns binding (see above clojurebot)?
13:06	micahmartin	mbac: what do you mean "terminate repeatedly"?
13:06	gtrak`	,(doc repeatedly
13:06	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
13:06	gtrak`	,(doc repeatedly)
13:06	clojurebot	"([f] [n f]); Takes a function of no args, presumably with side effects, and returns an infinite (or length n if supplied) lazy sequence of calls to it"
13:06	Bronsa	micahmartin:
13:06	Bronsa	,(with-redefs [ns (the-ns 'clojure.core)] (do (println ns) (lazy-seq [ns])))
13:06	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
13:07	clojurebot	(#<Namespace sandbox>)
13:07	Bronsa	no wait
13:07	Bronsa	this is worse
13:07	micahmartin	mbac: ahh. it's an infinite sequence. Try 'take or 'take-while.
13:08	micahmartin	Bronsa: interesting.. didn't know about with-redefs
13:12	micahmartin	Bronsa: Do you know the history of with-redefs? Why is binding not sufficient?
13:15	dnolen	micahmartin: lazy sequences and bindings do not work well together.
13:15	micahmartin	dnolan: incidentally? or Intentionally?
13:16	mbac	i see
13:18	dnolen	micahmartin: if you consider how lazy sequences work, how can they interact with dynamic binding?
13:18	micahmartin	binding and with-redefs seem like the same thing.
13:19	dnolen	micahmartin: they are not, with-redefs is about dealing with vars that are not dynamic.
13:20	micahmartin	dnolan: with-redefs allows rebinding of non-dynamic vars?
13:20	technomancy	temporary redefinition, not rebinding.
13:20	micahmartin	I see it just redefines them.
13:20	technomancy	it's mostly intended for test-time use; I would be deeply suspicious of any code that used it at runtime
13:21	micahmartin	dang, I wish I know knew about this a few weeks ago… it's helpful
13:22	micahmartin	technomancy: makes sense… but in the case where I need to rebind/redefine ns, should I be using something other than with-redefs?
13:22	micahmartin	eg. (with-redefs [ns (the-ns 'clojure.core)] (do (println ns) (lazy-seq [ns])))
13:23	technomancy	yeah, definitely something different; the seq will escape the scope of with-redefs. you need lexical scope if you want it to stay.
13:24	dnolen	micahmartin: you don't need with-redefs w/ ns, ns is dynamic
13:24	dnolen	micahmartin: you might be able to solve your problem by forcing the lazy sequence inside binding
13:25	micahmartin	dnolen: I was just thinking the same thing
13:25	dnolen	micahmartin: I've found that technique useful when writing macros.
13:26	micahmartin	dnolen: yes, doall did the trick.
13:26	dnolen	micahmartin: cool
13:28	TimMc	If I ever write a regex lib, it's going to be called "two-problems".
13:29	TimMc	dnolen: Seems like a kind of ugly surprise. So... bindings only applies inside the current stack-tail?
13:30	TimMc	and seqs escape that?
13:30	technomancy	well yeah, that's why you shouldn't use bindings any more than you have to.
13:31	technomancy	dynamic scope doesn't compose well
13:35	gtrak`	TimMc, bindings to vars follow a threadlocal stack discipline
13:36	dnolen	TimMc: its really is not surprising if you consider lazy sequences and dynamic binding. There was some discussion about special casing IO lazy seqs but nothing much has evolved on that front.
13:36	gtrak`	hmm, what if you do the binding in a map call?
13:37	gtrak`	like, (map fn2 (map fn1 coll)) where fn1 does a binding, would fn2 see the binding?
13:38	gtrak`	wait, that doesn't make sense
13:38	dnolen	gtrak`: was about to say that :)
13:38	gtrak`	you'd have to split the binding :-)
13:39	TimMc	Someone write a "Clojure pitfalls" thngy and put this on it.
13:42	gtrak`	something like (map pop-bindings (map your-fn (map push-bindings coll)))
13:46	technomancy	has anyone used clojure.java.jdbc with postgres hstore columns?
13:46	technomancy	I'm too unfamiliar with postgres to tell the difference between unsupported features and pebkac.
14:00	technomancy	looks like the two options for jdbc+hstore are either some jar file checked into an openstreetmap subproject's git repo or a couple pages of java code someone who claims to be bad at java has posted to a mailing list.
14:00	technomancy	exciting.
14:08	cmiles74	I had never heard of this hstore thing before I read the HN article this morning.
14:09	technomancy	it's a pretty well-kept secret
14:09	technomancy	there's a single page of reference docs with zero "getting started" material
14:12	rlb	I thought it was pretty new, too.
14:13	technomancy	I think it was distributed as a contrib pre 9.x
14:13	cmiles74	I see an article on the PG mailing list from 12/2009 with some prototype code, but it doesn't look like it's made it into the actual driver.
14:16	technomancy	yeah, I have no idea what to make of that. could you just compile it and start using it, or would you have to register it as a new type with the jdbc driver?
14:16	technomancy	also: is there a reason it was never added to the driver itself?
14:21	cmiles74	My guess is that you can compile and then start using it. PG has a bunch of their own datatypes and I think it'd work in a similar way.
14:22	technomancy	it turns out the jar in osmosis's git repo is that very code: https://github.com/oschrenk/osmosis/commit/84a5fc574717b3c5bc41520f370b9fc8807798cd
14:22	cmiles74	((org.postgresql.PGConnection)conn).addDataType("geometry",Class.forName("org.postgis.PGgeometry"));
14:22	technomancy	aha; thanks!
14:23	cmiles74	Section 5.2 of this document has more sample code: http://postgis.refractions.net/docs/ch05.html
14:23	cmiles74	It's not exactly the same thing, but at least it's something.
14:24	technomancy	what better way to reintroduce myself to postgres after four years of not using it?
14:24	cmiles74	:P
14:28	mrb_bk	hey everyone, i'm working on a redis rdb file parser in clojure, i'm a complete clojure noob
14:28	mrb_bk	here's what i have going so far https://gist.github.com/6dcba245ab08354a0a8d
14:28	mrb_bk	it doesn't do much :) just reads the magic number
14:29	mrb_bk	if anyone has any comments, that would be great
14:31	technomancy_	cmiles74: for the record, it's as simple as this: (sql/insert-rows :mytable [(PGHStore. my-map)])
14:31	technomancy_	since PGHStore has a j.u.Map constructor
14:31	technomancy_	(this is with the jar from the osmosis project)
14:31	technomancy_	which is extremely sketchy, but whatever
14:32	cmiles74	Gotcha'. Thank you, I've been thinking about trying this out. :)
14:36	technomancy_	https://clojars.org/org.clojars.technomancy/osmosis-hstore for the record
14:46	TimMc	mrb_bk: Have you looked into using gloss?
14:47	mrb_bk	TimMc: I did, but I found it to be way too complex for me at this point
14:47	mrb_bk	TimMc: for example I was having a difficult time even getting file --> lazy seq --> gloss
14:48	mrb_bk	it looks like a good solution and in general i get it, but it's a lot of extra cognitive dissonance for me right now as I'm also trying to learn the language
14:50	amalloy	i just discovered git checkout has a -p option, mirroring the -p in add/reset. <3 git
14:50	mrb_bk	TimMc: does that make sense?
14:54	technomancy	is there a better way than (apply sql/do-commands (.split (slurp (io/resource "hstore.sql")) ";")) to run all the sql in a given file?
14:54	technomancy	that feels a bit gross
14:55	TimMc	mrb_bk: Makes sense.
14:55	technomancy	I guess it's fine.
14:55	TimMc	technomancy: Not if you have ; in strings.
14:56	TimMc	or comments
14:56	technomancy	TimMc: yeah, fine in this case I mean.
14:56	TimMc	Are you feeling lucky?
14:57	technomancy	seancorfield: is that something that should be added to the c.j.jdbc API?
15:02	duck1123	Has anyone had issues with delimiters and the newer versions of korma? It insists on either giving me a NPE or escaping the table names with double quotes
15:04	duck1123	I love asking a question. It's a sure fire way to make sure it works on the very next test
15:21	powrtoc	I'm having some problems with clojure-mode and clojure-jack-in :-()
15:22	powrtoc	I get the following error: error in process filter: Search failed: "(run-hooks 'slime-load-hook) ; on port"
15:22	powrtoc	any ideas?
15:22	technomancy	powrtoc: try swank-clojure 1.3.3 or 1.3.4-SNAPSHOT
15:23	powrtoc	I'm on 1.3.3, but I'll try the 1.3.4-SNAPSHOT
15:24	powrtoc	I also tried 1.4.0-SNAPSHOT
15:25	powrtoc	technomancy: cheers... 1.3.4-SNAPSHOT works
15:25	powrtoc	:-)
15:26	technomancy	better get that released I guess
15:26	powrtoc	I knew I should've logged in here and asked, rather than spend 35 minutes faffing with it :-)
15:53	ibdknox	lol
15:53	ibdknox	whoops :p
15:54	amalloy	ibdknox: (apply f (cons a (list* b [c]))) for good measure?
15:54	ibdknox	amalloy: that would be the safest.
15:54	ibdknox	;)
15:59	ilyak	https://gist.github.com/1469066
15:59	ilyak	Hi *
15:59	ilyak	I have this slow function
15:59	ilyak	profiler tells me clojure spends most of its time by converting long to int and vice versa
15:59	ilyak	how should I write this code to it become efficient?
16:03	dnolen	ilyak: did you (set! warn-on-reflection true) ?
16:04	ilyak	dnolen: One sec
16:04	ilyak	But I don't thing it would tell anything meaningful
16:05	ilyak	dnolen: No lines in this fn trigger any warnings
16:08	dnolen	ilyak: can you add the defn for color to your gist?
16:09	ilyak	dnolen: https://gist.github.com/1469066
16:09	ilyak	but it's basically instant
16:10	ilyak	range seems to be a pretty inefficient function
16:11	ilyak	But I don't really know what to replace it with
16:11	dnolen	ilyak: I see reflection warnings.
16:11	ilyak	explicit loop seems meh ugly
16:11	ilyak	dnolen: in create-image?
16:12	dnolen	ilyak: in two places, you need to figure that out first - https://gist.github.com/1469123
16:12	dnolen	ilyak: explicit loops for perf is fine, especially for something like this.
16:13	dnolen	ilyak: using seqs for control when you're dealing with side-effects like this is a waste.
16:14	Wild_Cat	hrmm. Why is there no Leiningen 1.6.x Windows distribution at https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/downloads ?
16:14	ilyak	dnolen: Color ctor and getRGB are both called exactly once
16:15	ilyak	No reason to bother, except perhaps I should fix the white as (int )
16:16	dnolen	ilyak: ah you're right, but looking at the Javadocs setRGB is suspect
16:17	ilyak	explicit loop is much much faster
16:18	dnolen	ilyak: setRGB seems strange to me, you have boxed longs in range, but setRGB takes prim int
16:18	ilyak	No, it isn't
16:19	ilyak	I'm so dumb
16:19	dnolen	ilyak: if explicit loop isn't faster then consider my last point.
16:21	ilyak	I suddently decided to stop caring about performance because it takes more human time than reduces computer time
16:21	TimMc	haha
16:23	dnolen	ilyak: what are you basing your setRGB call on? The javadocs say, int int int for the signature
16:38	technomancy	Wild_Cat: the windows maintainer is just behind schedule
16:38	Wild_Cat	OK, nothing to worry about then. Thanks.
16:45	cemerick	Odd: this emits a reflection warning for .equiv: (= (.charAt "f" 0) (.charAt "f" 0))
16:49	hiredman	there is equiv inline for characters
16:49	hiredman	or wasn't last I looked
16:49	cemerick	right, and .charAt returns a char
16:50	hiredman	and Utils.equiv may take Object Object
16:50	weavejester	I've just updated clojure-mode and I can no longer connect to SLIME...
16:50	hiredman	updated to what, the lastest master?
16:51	weavejester	Just 1.11.4
16:51	djhworld
16:51	djhworld
16:51	djhworld	> hello world
16:51	hsbot	Not in scope: `hello'Not in scope: `world'
16:51	djhworld	whoops
16:51	weavejester	Via marmalade, I believe.
16:51	weavejester	Does: error in process filter: Search failed: "(run-hooks 'slime-load-hook)
16:51	weavejester	seem familiar to anyone?
16:51	hiredman	latest according to git is 1.11.2
16:52	weavejester	package-list-packages claims 1.11.4...
16:53	weavejester	And the latest commit on technomancy's repo is "Release 1.11.4.
16:53	weavejester	So I think the release is correct :)
16:53	weavejester	I wonder whether I need to update swank-clojure or something?
16:54	technomancy	crap, yeah I need to fix that
16:54	technomancy	swank-clojure 1.3.4-SNAPSHOT should fix it
16:54	technomancy	but it's dumb for it to require a snapshot.
16:55	weavejester	I'll try that :)
16:55	weavejester	Might want to put a notice on it or something, or release a new version...
16:55	technomancy	wait... it should work with 1.3.3 actually
16:55	technomancy	what are you on?
16:56	weavejester	1.3.2
16:57	weavejester	Or I was. I've just upgraded the plugin
16:57	weavejester	Ah, it works now.
16:59	technomancy	just pushed a new clojure-mode; I think it should be more forgiving of earlier swank versions now
17:01	weavejester	Awesome :)
17:01	weavejester	By the way, is there anything I need to do to enable SLIME completions?
17:01	weavejester	I've never been able to get that to work.
17:02	technomancy	in the repl or in clojure-mode?
17:03	weavejester	In clojure-mode
17:03	technomancy	M-TAB works for me, but I don't remember if I did anything special to set it up
17:04	weavejester	M-Tab is my window switcher :) - I think by default it's M-\ ... or is that something else?
17:05	technomancy	there are a number of completion mechanisms; some of which can multiplex to others composably. M-TAB is a way to directly access the slime-specific one.
17:06	technomancy	you can tie the slime completion mechanism into hippie-expand, for instance
17:06	weavejester	Emacs completions are a bit of a mystery to me. I was thinking of smart-tab, which I assume completes on tab
17:07	technomancy	hm. I am deeply suspicious of rebinding TAB to mean anything other than indent.
17:07	weavejester	I think it either indents or completes depending on the context.
17:07	technomancy	C-i is another way to invoke TAB without triggering your WM
17:08	technomancy	so you can try C-M-i
17:08	amalloy	yeah, C-M-i is one way
17:08	weavejester	Oh yeah, that works.
17:08	weavejester	I need to find a better key combo though. Maybe I'll try hippie
17:09	amalloy	i wind up doing something similar on occasion, using C-j to insert a newline. i configured RET to automatically reindent (arguably because i'm stupid), so when i don't want to i can use C-j
17:09	technomancy	IIRC hippie-expand is the one that can cycle through a number of different completion mechanisms
17:09	weavejester	Not sure I really need that, then
17:20	weavejester	Aha, got it working.
17:28	bhenry	i need to add to the end of a list? how should i do this?
17:30	dnolen	bhenry: you should use a vector, otherwise concat might work for you.
17:30	bhenry	i have headers = [:a :b :c] and am cons-ing them to the beginning of the data formatted as a list of vectors like [1 2 3]. then i want to add the footers [6 5 4] at the end, so i can run a nice little tab-formatting function over the result.
17:30	bhenry	ah i was thinking that. didn't know if it would be super frowned upon to turn them all into vectors.
17:42	TimMc	technomancy: Hey, lein 1.6.2 is defaulting to 1.3.0 in new projects -- did 1.6.2 just get released or something?
17:43	technomancy	TimMc: a few weeks ago
17:43	TimMc	nice
17:43	Turtl3boi	why is clojure used for web programming?
17:43	TimMc	Why not?
17:44	Turtl3boi	haha i dunno just wondering. i thought php/javascript and all that was rather entrenched
17:47	brehaut	Turtl3boi: nothing is 'entrenched' on the server side
17:49	brehaut	(except for existing projects)
17:49	weavejester	Turtl3boi: Lots of languages are used for web development.
17:50	Turtl3boi	how can i start using clojure on a free web server?
17:50	Turtl3boi	or would i have to get a paid hosting and then set it up myself
17:50	weavejester	I believe Heroku has a free tier
17:50	cemerick	As does GAE and Amazon Elastic Beanstalk.
17:50	Turtl3boi	emm what is techomancy
17:51	Turtl3boi	is that a bott
17:51	weavejester	Amazon only have it for the first year
17:51	cemerick	right
17:51	Turtl3boi	what's amazon elastic beanstalk?
17:51	weavejester	technomancy isn't a bot :)
17:51	technomancy	weavejester: is it because of your childhood that you say technomancy isn't a bot :)?
17:51	weavejester	Or if he is, he's a sentient AI and we're only years away from Skynet
17:51	Turtl3boi	i had never seen someone's name italicized b4
17:51	weavejester	Clearly of superior intelligence to us mere mortals :)
17:52	technomancy	not if I can't pass the reverse turing test.
17:52	weavejester	Elastic Beanstalk is Amazon's cloud-hosting platform.
17:52	weavejester	Basically you can host Java servlets without having to worry about infrastructure, and Clojure web apps can be packaged as servlets.
17:53	technomancy	weavejester: congrats on the 1.0 release btw
17:53	weavejester	weavejester: Of Ring? Took us long enough to get there :)
17:53	weavejester	But then I guess stability is a good thing for a project like that!
17:53	technomancy	yeah, definitely want that slow-moving stability at that layer of the stack
17:54	brehaut	weavejester: its not like the pre 1.0.0 releases were shonky though
17:54	weavejester	Compojure should be going 1.0.0 soon, too. I've just released an RC version. Not much change.
17:54	weavejester	brehaut: True. That's why we figured we should go and release an official stable version :)
17:54	brehaut	hah fair enough :)
17:55	technomancy	is there still a plan to move it to a contrib, or was that just a rumor?
17:55	Turtl3boi	so what would clojure be used for in web design? the backend or the frontend
17:55	Turtl3boi	does it replace the PHP kinda
17:55	weavejester	technomancy: Weeeell... there was, and it still might happen, but not everyone who's contributed to Ring is on the Clojure's contributor agreement.
17:56	technomancy	yeah, I fail to see the upside for such a thing
17:56	weavejester	I don't really see much of an upside either, reallly...
17:56	weavejester	I mean, it would be more official, but it would take a lot of work to get people to sign or replace code.
17:56	technomancy	it's not like it needs the Blessing of the Chosen for people to realize ring is where it's at.
17:56	weavejester	And it would impede future patches.
17:57	technomancy	and you'd have to use jira.
17:57	weavejester	Turtl3boi: It's more the back end, yeah
17:57	weavejester	Turtl3boi: But Clojurescript compiles into Java, so potentially the front end too. That's still a little experimental though.
17:57	weavejester	Er, Javascript I mean
17:57	Turtl3boi	ahh ok interesting
17:58	weavejester	technomancy: Oh yeah. I prefer Github really. Clojure's process seems a little too formal, which is good for a language, but maybe not for a library.
17:58	technomancy	good to know
17:59	weavejester	technomancy: By the way, I was thinking of creating a ragtime.leiningen subproject
17:59	weavejester	which would add leiningen tasks like "lein migrate" and "lein rollback"
17:59	weavejester	But I haven't quite figured out how people would hook their libraries into that.
18:01	technomancy	weavejester: I wonder if it wouldn't be better to run migrations via "lein run -m ragtime.migrate" or the like
18:01	weavejester	Or... maybe I could keep it simple, and just provide functions that people could use in their Leiningen plugins.
18:01	technomancy	then the function can still be invoked from an uberjar or war file when leiningen isn't present
18:01	technomancy	at deploy time
18:01	weavejester	technomancy: Oh sure
18:01	cemerick	weavejester: Congrats, and thanks for everything :-D
18:01	weavejester	But having a small leiningen plugin to wrap around that might be nice...
18:02	weavejester	cemerick: Thanks :)
18:02	weavejester	I'm thinking that a library like Migratus could just pass a list of migration maps to Ragtime
18:02	weavejester	And then Ragtime handles all the rest
18:02	weavejester	Kinda like a Ring for migrations.
18:03	cemerick	weavejester: I'll have to bug you re: a lein-beanstalk release now.
18:04	weavejester	cemerick: Do you want to be added to the lein-beanstalk project? :)
18:04	weavejester	cemerick: As a maintainer
18:04	cemerick	Risky move. ;-)
18:05	cemerick	Fine by me.
18:05	cemerick	I just don't want -SNAPSHOT versions floating around in the book.
18:05	weavejester	I'm probably not going to be personally invested in lein-beanstalk for a while, so if you are, then better to have someone who is using it
18:05	weavejester	Or at least intested in its development.
18:06	cemerick	I use beanstalk quite a bit, and will be using lein more and more…so, sure. :-)
18:07	weavejester	cemerick: Perfect :)
18:07	weavejester	cemerick: Your github account is "cemerick" too, right?
18:07	cemerick	Nope, that's my doppelganger that creates bugs all the time.
18:08	cemerick	Might use a lein-beanstalk branch to figure out the new lein profiles / plugins / etc. action, actually.
18:08	cemerick	(Yes, cemerick is me nearly everywhere.)
18:08	weavejester	Just making sure
18:09	cemerick	Sorry for the out-of-place not-really-humor. It's shaping up to be an odd week.
18:09	weavejester	Okay, you should be added.
18:09	weavejester	np :)
18:09	weavejester	Let me add you to clojars as well...
18:10	weavejester	(I'm assuming you're cemerick on clojars, too :)
18:11	weavejester	You're now added on Clojars too. Feel free to push out releases.
18:11	cemerick	yup
18:11	cemerick	Great, thanks. I'll be sure to ping you on anything more than patch-level stuff.
18:12	gtrak`	Turtl3boi, take a look at noir for a full framework or ring and moustache for a minimal one
18:13	Turtl3boi	gtrak but that can't run on a free web host usually right?
18:13	gtrak`	though noir is pretty minimal too
18:13	gtrak`	Turtl3boi, yea, you can run all this stuff on heroku
18:13	Turtl3boi	so i can go setup a byethost free web server account and install heroku on it
18:13	gtrak`	Turtl3boi, no, get a heroku account: http://thecomputersarewinning.com/post/clojure-heroku-noir-mongo
18:14	gtrak`	doubtful you'll get a free web host that does jvm stuff
18:14	gtrak`	but heroku does it
18:15	gtrak`	is TimMc a bot?
18:16	Turtl3boi	yes Tim lol
18:16	Turtl3boi	i'm an IRC IDIOT so far
18:16	gtrak`	TimMc, how'd you do that?
18:16	Turtl3boi	i need to stop using chatzilla
18:16	TimMc	Turtl3boi: The first thing was me using /me to do an action.
18:17	TimMc	gtrak`: That was /notice, which is the thing clojurebot uses to announce clojars news.
18:17	gtrak`	ah
18:17	TimMc	/notice #channel message
18:18	TimMc	It's supposed to come in at a lower priority than privmsg.
18:18	TimMc	...although apparently some clients make it stand out more for no good reason.
18:19	amalloy	mine just treats it like a regular message with the string "(notice) " prepended to it. kinda silly but useable
18:20	Turtl3boi	holy crap that's so cool!
18:20	TimMc	haha
18:20	TimMc	Turtl3boi: And if you need to start a message with a slash, use /say
18:21	Turtl3boi	Program Files/SexGame/hornyphoto.jpg
18:21	gtrak`	/
18:21	Turtl3boi	what did i do wrong
18:21	gtrak`	/say ...
18:21	Turtl3boi	/Program Files
18:22	Turtl3boi	oh right....... lol see how slow i am with computer syntax
18:22	Turtl3boi	why is that guys who generally work on Clojure and other cutting edge stuff are less smug than the guys in the #C and #C++ channels
18:23	Raynes	weavejester: Being able to accept contributions > being official.
18:23	lancepantz	Turtl3boi: i like to think it's because we have a higher quality of life, due to clojure :)
18:24	Raynes	lancepantz: I think you just canceled what he said out by being smug.
18:24	gtrak`	maybe it's just harder to notice the smug b/c of the lang
18:24	Raynes	The politically correct response is "Aw, shucks. I don't know!"
18:24	Turtl3boi	ROFL
18:25	Turtl3boi	btw gtrak i'm finally starting to understand fully that python code you gave me for that graphics course you took
18:25	Turtl3boi	lol see how slow i am
18:27	Turtl3boi	do you guys all use Linux for main OS?
18:30	gtrak`	Turtl3boi, i think it has some mistakes in it
18:30	Turtl3boi	haha possibly
18:30	Turtl3boi	it's ok i get the gist of it now
18:30	gtrak`	and it was like the first python i ever wrote
18:30	Turtl3boi	still haven't been called back for an interview for that graphics position i applied for
18:31	Turtl3boi	lol ya
18:31	Turtl3boi	i think i'm gonna give up on graphics
18:31	gtrak`	it's not a large market
18:32	Turtl3boi	yeah but Nvidia does pay well if you can get in
18:32	gtrak`	yea, i have a buddy there
18:32	Turtl3boi	but yeah it isn't a large market at all
18:33	gtrak`	enterprise and web will keep you fed while you're learning
18:33	Turtl3boi	what's enterprise?
18:33	Turtl3boi	like just making apps that run locally
18:33	gtrak`	enterprise is like pornography, you know it when you see it
18:34	Turtl3boi	haha
18:35	gtrak`	enterprise is a pretty big term, like something that isn't exactly just web
18:44	srid	is there a library like lamina for ruby (preferably using eventmachine)?
18:47	Turtl3boi	what's the easiest way of writing a web app
18:47	Turtl3boi	with HTML5 and Javascript?
18:48	technomancy	first you should take a working web application, read its source, and attempt to modify it.
18:48	technomancy	you can start with the sample at http://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/clojure-web-application
18:49	Turtl3boi	where's the sample?
18:50	technomancy	it's linked to in the article
18:52	rickmode	I'm toying with the idea of deploying clojure via source file outside of jar files. I tried clojure.lang.Compiler.loadFile, however that doesn't work when using or requiring forms from other source files (refer does work).
18:52	rickmode	So I know adding my source path to the app's classpath works. Is there another way that doesn't involve changing the hosting app's classpath?
18:53	technomancy	you can go in and mangle clojure.core/loaded-libs if you want to really go nuts
18:54	technomancy	just don't tell anyone I told you that
18:54	cemerick	rickmode: are you trying to update a running app, or something else?
18:55	rickmode	cemerick: ya - I'd like to be able to edit the source, then reload it via a REPL.
18:55	cemerick	rickmode: if you make sure some directory is on the app's classpath, then you can dump source files in there to your heart's content, and load (or reload) them remotely from the REPL.
18:56	rickmode	Imagine code running on a customer site that you may want to tweak. So you extract the source from the jar, do some magic, and (perhaps after restarting the app), the app now uses the files rather than the version inside the jar
18:56	cemerick	Alternatively, you could just load all the code you want through the REPL.
18:56	technomancy	rickmode: just put a directory on the classpath ahead of the jar
18:56	technomancy	then you can place the modified source there
18:56	cemerick	what technomancy said
18:57	technomancy	(assuming you're squeamish about editing the jar directly)
18:57	qbg	rickmode: load-file doesn't work foryou?
18:57	rickmode	cemerick / technomancy: ya that sounds like the best option. And the upside is there is no config change needed.
19:00	rickmode	qbg: if I have code in two source files, then use and require fail, since those both only use the classpath. I thought using load-file dependencies first would work, but even though the dependence source loads fine (imagine it's a utils.clj thing), using require in my core.clj still searches the classpath rather than realize the namespace is already available. It makes sense actually. It's just a drag something like load-file w
19:00	rickmode	It's just a drag something like load-file would _not_ work.
19:01	technomancy	it would work if everything downstream was also implemented in terms of load-file
19:02	rickmode	technomancy - ya - but that means using (refer ..) and such. The code won't look the same as the jar'd version.
19:02	technomancy	right, I mean, people use that stuff because it's much more convenient than thinking in terms of files all the time
19:02	rickmode	it's a subtle distinction - the load-file / script style vs. the classpath / use / require style
19:03	bloop	forgive me if this is a dumb question, but what is the difference between 1N and 1?
19:03	qbg	1N is a bigint
19:03	seancorfield	,(type 1N)
19:03	clojurebot	clojure.lang.BigInt
19:04	bloop	why does (/ 1/2 1/2) produce a bigint?
19:04	rickmode	technomancy / cemrick / qdb: Ok cool - I was just making sure I hadn't missed something.
19:04	alexbaranosky	any of you all use Marginalia? I'd be excited to hear more about what it does
19:05	Turtl3boi	alex what exactly do you do now for a living
19:05	qbg	bloop: Ratios are ratios of bigints, so it makes sense...
19:05	brehaut	it rejiggers your documentation and code to be equals
19:05	Turtl3boi	would you say it's hard to do what you do
19:06	bloop	qbg: ok then...
19:06	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, program on a piece of software called the Trade Idea Monitor, a kind of network for equity (mostly) brokers and buyers
19:06	alexbaranosky	in Java and Scala, we do pretty much XP, with some twists
19:06	Turtl3boi	omg you do programming for the finance industry
19:06	Turtl3boi	i heard that can be a nice industry
19:06	Turtl3boi	what's XP?
19:06	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, hard? I guess, but fun
19:07	qbg	XP = extreme programming
19:07	alexbaranosky	programming is hard if you do it right :) Because you are always optimizing out the easy bits
19:07	qbg	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_programming
19:07	alexbaranosky	not sure if I really believe that last statement
19:08	bloop	qbg: but numerator and denominator don't always return bigints... eh, whatever
19:09	qbg	bloop: Might be a bug around here
19:09	bloop	programming should be hard like mathematics is hard; it should not be hard like lifting a box with your ears is hard
19:09	qbg	(inc bloop)
19:09	lazybot	⇒ 1
19:11	Turtl3boi	haha thx alex
19:11	Turtl3boi	alex can you tell me what are some of the difficult questions you've been asked at an interview
19:13	Turtl3boi	well this is a long term question
19:13	Turtl3boi	no rush alex
19:13	rickmode	simple != easy. Programming the easy way leads to big messes. Programming the easy way in OO languages results to an object orgy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_orgy). I've yet to see a OO project of any age that isn't a mess of slightly wrong hierarchies and broken encapsulation.
19:13	Turtl3boi	i always thought OOP was kind of messy but i couldn't quite put my finger on it
19:14	Turtl3boi	i just really never understood other people's code very quickly
19:14	alexbaranosky	rickmode, I personally avoid inheritence until I'm physically forced to use it
19:14	mbac	what's the least horrible way to turn a byte array into integers
19:15	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, can you email me? Seems like a better forum for answering specific questions, and I also have to go eat now... don't want to forget
19:15	mbac	i'm decoding signed shorts
19:15	rickmode	Flat inheritence hierarchies help. Clojure-style OO is essentially flat.
19:16	Turtl3boi	later alex
19:20	rickmode	mbac: check out DataInput in Java : http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/io/DataInput.html
19:20	mbac	blah, i already have the data loaded sadly
19:21	rickmode	mbac: it's still usable via an input stream around your data
19:22	rickmode	mbac: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/io/DataInputStream.html
19:23	alexbaranosky	rickmode, I prefer to favor composition over inheritence almost always
19:23	rickmode	mbac: if you're brave you can also use bit shifting on the elements of the byte array
19:23	qbg	ByteBuffer?
19:23	mbac	bit shifting is a much more familiar beast to me than java libraries
19:24	qbg	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/nio/ByteBuffer.html
19:24	qbg	Makes Java more like C land
19:25	rickmode	mbac: if you're data is a 4 byte array, then something like this works: (((unitbuf[0] & 0xFF) << 24) \| ((unitbuf[1] & 0xFF) << 16) \| ((unitbuf[2] & 0xFF) << 8) \| (unitbuf[3] & 0xFF))
19:25	mbac	yeah, i was wondering if clojure had magic already to do that
19:25	mbac	no worries
19:26	qbg	Byte buffer lets you turn it into a ShortBuffer, and from there into a short array
19:26	rickmode	mbac: the bitwise operators are there... however Clojure is much happier creating longs than ints, so be careful
19:26	mbac	cool
19:26	mbac	thanks
19:35	Turtl3boi	what's the purpose of Heroku?
19:36	gtrak```	it's a cloud platform
19:36	gtrak```	they sell cpus and dbs for you to deploy on, the first one is free
19:36	Turtl3boi	interesting
19:40	Turtl3boi	did you write a web app and deploy it on heroku?
19:41	gtrak```	nah, not yet
19:41	gtrak```	i'm sure lots of guys here have though
19:42	brehaut	Turtl3boi: http://clojuresphere.herokuapp.com/ http://github.com/jkk/clojuresphere
19:44	replore_	and this is a good tutorial using clojure in heroku.. http://thecomputersarewinning.com/post/clojure-heroku-noir-mongo
19:48	alexbaranosky	reoku + noir is very smooth
19:48	alexbaranosky	correction: heroku
19:49	alexbaranosky	so none of you all are using Marginalia? I'm wondering if it might be useful somehow for Midje
19:50	brehaut	im pretty sure some of us are using marg
19:50	technomancy	it's useful for potential contributors. not so sure how useful it is for users.
19:50	alexbaranosky	technomancy, that's still a useful thing though
19:51	technomancy	absolutely.
19:52	Turtl3boi	what do u mean by "smooth" alex?
19:53	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, just that you can get a deployed webapp up in 5 minutes or something
19:53	alexbaranosky	and then you can redeploy with `git push heroku master`
19:53	alexbaranosky	also smooth on the noir side, you can easily refresh your runnign web server just with `:reload` to see changes you've made
19:54	alexbaranosky	all around just easy to work with
19:55	Turtl3boi	what does it mean to 'deploy' a webapp? like have it appear in a browser when you type in the URL?
19:55	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, yes. It has to run on a machine somewhere
19:56	mbac	are seqs memoized or does clojure re-synthesize them for each consumer?
19:57	technomancy	mbac: they're memoized
19:57	mbac	cool
19:58	Turtl3boi	do you write web apps alex? or mainly just ones that run on the local machine
19:58	alexbaranosky	the application I write at work is a webapp, so yeah
19:58	bloop	so, I've been redesigning my personal GUI library in Clojure and I'm considering the possibility of having a "single mutable root" and no other mutations in the rest of the scene graph (so using custom zippers instead of refs for things that 'change') I'm not very experienced with hardcore functional programming and was wondering what you guys think of this idea. Is it mostly a performance vs. capability concern?
19:59	Turtl3boi	umm do i have to be pretty decent with network programming (understanding TCP/IP) to be able to write web apps
19:59	mbac	not as a rule, no
20:00	brehaut	bloop: have you had a look at seesaw ?
20:00	bloop	brehaut: nope, I'll look into that
20:00	brehaut	Turtl3boi: web apps are about as airy fairy as you can get
20:01	brehaut	bloop: its inspired by enlive and built on swing i believe
20:01	Turtl3boi	you mean easier to write than other apps
20:01	brehaut	Turtl3boi: no
20:01	Raynes	technomancy and I are trying to gauge how widespread the usage of nested vectors as :java-source-path in Leiningen is. Does anyone here use it or know of projects that use it?
20:01	brehaut	Turtl3boi: just that theres very few picky details
20:01	Raynes	Example: :java-source-path [["foo"] ["bar"]]
20:01	brehaut	Turtl3boi: you can get away without even knowing http when you start out
20:02	Turtl3boi	hahaha that would be me
20:02	amalloy	clojurebot: web apps \|are\| about as airy fairy as you can get
20:02	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
20:02	bloop	brehaut: the cool thing about single-mutable-root is that any state of the whole GUI can be revisited just be holding on to the value... but I'm not sure if this is really a realistic goal... or useful. It seems like "how grainular should I make my side effects?" is a question I just don't have a good instinct for, because previously, avoiding side-effects was so tough that I just took what I could get.
20:02	brehaut	apropos of nothing: http://www.rimmell.com/bbc/news.htm
20:03	alexbaranosky	Raynes, technomancy I've not seen nested vectors used in my limited exposure
20:03	Turtl3boi	bbl
20:03	brehaut	Turtl3boi: have you looked at ring yet?
20:04	Turtl3boi	nope what's that
20:04	Turtl3boi	well yeah i saw something about ring on the heroku site
20:04	brehaut	Turtl3boi: its the web / http abstraction that basicly all clojure web stuff uses as the 'lowest level'
20:04	brehaut	basicly its just an interface for functions that talk http
20:04	brehaut	'just'
20:04	Turtl3boi	haha yeah that's what made me start worrying about knowing network programming
20:05	brehaut	Turtl3boi: you get given a map of (mostly) strings, and you return a map of (mostly) strings
20:05	Turtl3boi	wow that sounds easy maybe i should try writing a lil appsy
20:06	brehaut	Turtl3boi: its a little old now (its for clj 1.2 and pre 1.0.0 ring) but http://brehaut.net/blog/2011/ring_introduction
20:06	brehaut	apologies for tooting my own trumpet
20:07	Turtl3boi	wow thanks i'll read up on it.... btw i hope you realize how newb i am. i was not a CS major and i shunned programming for quite a while
20:08	Turtl3boi	i was a geek who was into analog electronics
20:08	Turtl3boi	anyways i shall be back later
20:15	burngreg	Anybody have any experience in using SQL Korma with postgres schema's ?
20:19	TimMc	brehaut: That was pretty random.
20:19	brehaut	TimMc: ?
20:20	leo2007	is clojure slow? (http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/compare.php?lang=clojure)
20:20	TimMc	brehaut: The article by Dr. Sloof. :-)
20:20	technomancy	leo2007: alioth benchmarks are well-known for being biased against languages that use JIT.
20:21	technomancy	they're about as useful as the tiobe index
20:21	technomancy	platforms that use jit, rather
20:22	leo2007	alright, thanks for the note.
20:22	TimMc	Also, the Clojure should probably be rewritten -- there is not way it takes more lines of code than Java.
20:23	amalloy	TimMc: if you can't use any HOFs because that means boxing and lazy-seq overhead, which is too slow for the shootout...
20:24	TimMc	hmm
20:27	cemerick	leo2007: The shootout allows (and therefore demands) the use of native libraries in e.g. python/ruby/java/clojure/scala/etc.
20:27	cemerick	Makes it a total sham AFAIC.
20:28	cemerick	Someone (besides me) should start a "No Bullshit Programming Language Benchmarks Game".
20:28	technomancy	cemerick: not sure "no bullshit" and "game" can go together in that context
20:28	hiredman	cemerick: isn't there a T at the end of AFAIC
20:29	cemerick	As Far As I'm Concerned.
20:29	hiredman	ah
20:30	cemerick	technomancy: it can be gamified while still providing some value.
20:32	technomancy	cemerick: it's just so subjective; people are always going to look at absolute speed rather than the maintainability/speed tradeoff that they actually care about because the former is quantifiable.
20:33	cemerick	technomancy: maybe sort by a Speed / AST nodes column? :-P
20:34	technomancy	the proportion of people who should be picking a language based on _ato-style squeezing-blood-from-a-stone (http://meshy.org/2009/12/13/widefinder-2-with-clojure.html) is tiny, but those kind of stats are always going to be where people look.
20:34	technomancy	also: most people are going to come to the site looking for data to justify conclusions they've already made
20:34	cemerick	Most people just want to know they're within 20% of the fastest they can go, given platform limitations.
20:35	technomancy	I suspect you're looking for a technical solution to a social problem. =)
20:35	cemerick	I'm not looking at all, thank goodness.
20:35	technomancy	heh
20:35	cemerick	Annnyway…travisci is pretty slick.
20:35	technomancy	so good
20:35	cemerick	http://travis-ci.org/#!/cemerick/clutch/builds
20:36	cemerick	It lives!
20:36	bloop	my biggest issue is that it treats optimization the wrong way: as something you do early in the project (by choosing a language)
20:36	cemerick	Uses a travis-provided couchdb instance for testing everything too.
20:36	cemerick	I figured I'd have to go set up a clutch-specific account at cloudant or something.
20:56	alexbaranosky	is there any standard way to mark a Clojure function deprecated using metadata or something else?
20:56	TimMc	amalloy: It turns out the site doesn't compare SLOC, it compares gzipped size. :-P
20:58	technomancy	alexbaranosky: I came up with this: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/1.x/src/leiningen/core.clj#L12
20:58	brehaut	alexbaranosky: use :deprecated as the key and "version number" as the string
20:59	technomancy	if you're deprecating it in favour of the same function in another ns, anyway
20:59	brehaut	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L2010
20:59	technomancy	brehaut: :will-remove-in "2.0.0" if you want to really get them worried =)
20:59	brehaut	lol :)
21:00	alexbaranosky	thanks guys, will check those links
21:01	brehaut	technomancy: defdeprecated is a nice trick
21:04	cgray	i asked this the other day, but why is `last' not defined as #(nth % (dec (count %))) for types with O(1) count?
21:06	brehaut	if i were to guess, its because last is a sequence function, rather than a polymorphic function
21:07	brehaut	and not all datatypes with O(1) count are random access? (although i guess it probably wouldnt matter)
21:07	cgray	true, for lists, nth is O(n), but so is last
21:08	brehaut	cgray: so really, you are asking why isnt vector special cased?
21:08	cgray	kind of :)
21:08	brehaut	(you could always use peek if you knew you had a vector)
21:09	cgray	aha, cool
21:10	cgray	hmm, it also looks like last is defined very early in core.clj, but i guess it could be redefined later
21:11	brehaut	cgray: only if the var was defined dynamically though right?
21:11	cgray	brehaut: oh good point
21:11	brehaut	although…
21:11	brehaut	slowdown due to var lookup on a O(n) function might be a silly thing to optimize?
21:12	cgray	true
21:13	cgray	i always get confused because i assume that last is clever about different types like so many of the other seq functions
21:13	cgray	somehow i'll have to start remembering to use peek instead of last
21:23	arohner	is there a programmatic way to turn off swank?
21:34	tensorpudding	turn off swank?
21:36	tensorpudding	you can do (slime-repl-quit) to kill a running swank process and remove the slime buffers
21:39	arohner	tensorpudding: that calls (System/exit 0), right?
21:39	arohner	I'd rather just stop the swank threads, and let the process figure out whether it's time to quit or not
21:39	arohner	the problem is, swank is keeping the process from dying
21:40	duck1123	try stopping the agents?
21:41	alexbaranosky	how does {:deprecated "x.y.z} get used in the attr-map? part of a defn ?
21:41	arohner	duck1123: yes, I've tried that. I'm quite certain it's only swank that's keeping the process from dying
21:42	duck1123	you're starting swank in your tests, right?
21:42	arohner	right
21:43	duck1123	looks like swank.commands.basic/get-thread-list might get you the threads. You could halt each one maybe
21:59	bobhope	where can I learn about clojure's agent scheduling algorithm?
21:59	bobhope	on the heavyweight threads?
22:09	alexbaranosky	could anyone take a look at a gist of something I'm trying to do and explain why it is failing for me?: https://gist.github.com/1470342
22:11	mindbender	In my recent ritz update, I get these errors when I run the tests: https://gist.github.com/1470339
22:12	amalloy	alexbaranosky: well, "doesn't seem to work" is pretty dang vague. it looks to me like your alter-meta! should be quoting name: '~name
22:14	alexbaranosky	amalloy, hmmmm the alter-meta version applies the meta-data fine, the second version with the meta data done this way: ^{....} fails to apply the metadata to the unfinished defs
22:15	amalloy	alexbaranosky: you want to replace the former with the latter? but the latter works and the former doesn't? are you sure you don't have something backward?
22:15	alexbaranosky	?
22:15	amalloy	you said the alter-meta version works fine, but your gist says it's the version that doesn't work
22:16	alexbaranosky	the key is I'd like to understand why it doesn't work, I guess
22:17	alexbaranosky	amalloy, sorry, I put them backwards
22:17	alexbaranosky	just fixed it
22:18	amalloy	in that case the problem is (probably) that ~name here resolves to the function itself, not the name. and the function has not been def'd yet in the ^ version
22:18	alexbaranosky	fixed the gist, not the code
22:19	alexbaranosky	hmm, even if I replace ~name, with '~name it still doesn't get the meta-data
22:19	alexbaranosky	but that does sound like it might be why it is behaving this way
22:19	alexbaranosky	makes sense at least
22:22	alexbaranosky	ammaloy: thanks for the suggestions I will just stick with the original
22:31	blakesmith	Hrm. I'm implementing a decompression algorithm that operates on (potentially) large files, and would like the file IO and decompression to only happen when that part of the file is asked for (lazily). Has anyone else encountered a problem like this before?
22:31	blakesmith	Seems like a job for a lazy-seq, or writing against the ISeq interface...
22:32	blakesmith	But I'm unsure.
22:34	brehaut	blakesmith: it sounds like you want a buffered reader or something from clojure.java.io over some java class ?
22:35	blakesmith	brehaut: Yes, but I'd like it to wrap decompression as well.
22:35	blakesmith	So, buffered reading and decompression wrapped together, for easier usage.
22:36	blakesmith	It'd be nice to be able to use idioms like 'take' on it as well..
22:36	blakesmith	Since this is for a clojure library.
22:38	brehaut	blakesmith: still seems like it probably should be a java reader class to do the decompression
22:39	blakesmith	brehaut: Would that then need to be wrapped in some way to support Clojure idioms like 'take'?
22:39	brehaut	blakesmith: well it'd be in the IO layer not the seq layer; i think the readers are lazy anyway
22:40	brehaut	so you wouldnt worry about making it support a seq operations, just reader operations. then you can use the standard clojure java io stuff to go from the reader to other stuff
22:43	brehaut	i might well be talking out my arse though
22:43	blakesmith	hehehe
22:43	blakesmith	Aight, I'll see if I can drum up some code, since that's easier to talk about.
22:43	blakesmith	Will report back. ;-)
22:45	alexbaranosky	does anyone know, how {:deprecated "x.y.z} gets used in the attr-map? part of a defn ?
22:46	amalloy	alexbaranosky: afaik it gets recorded and ignored
22:47	alexbaranosky	recorded by whom?
22:47	amalloy	it's in the var meta
22:47	amalloy	&(meta #'struct-map)
22:47	lazybot	⇒ {:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name struct-map, :arglists ([s & inits]), :added "1.0", :static true, :doc "Returns a new structmap instance with the keys of the\n structure-basis. keyvals may contain all, some or none of the basis\n keys - where values are not ... https://gist.github.com/1470470
22:48	amalloy	&(meta #'agent-errors) ;; this one should actually have it
22:48	lazybot	⇒ {:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name agent-errors, :arglists ([a]), :deprecated "1.2", :added "1.0", :doc "DEPRECATED: Use 'agent-error' instead.\n Returns a sequence of the exceptions thrown during asynchronous\n actions of the agent.", :line 2003, :file "clojure/core.clj"}
22:48	alexbaranosky	tried to add it to a couple macros in Midje, and it doesn't seem to show up in the var meta
22:50	alexbaranosky	amalloy, dang, I'm on a roll of dumb tonight, oh well, it looks like I missed it and it is clearly in the var meta
22:50	alexbaranosky	take it easy time to relax my brain for the night with some tv :)
22:52	Turtl3boi	hi
22:53	tmciver	alexbaranosky: are we meeting at Sprout on Wednesday?
22:58	Turtl3boi	can i meet up too?
23:00	tmciver	Turtl3boi: Are you in the Boston area?
23:00	Turtl3boi	nope i live in california =(
23:00	Turtl3boi	i assumed most ppl here were from san francisco
23:01	tmciver	Nope, east coast
23:01	tmciver	Clojurians better than west coast. ;)
23:05	Scriptor	yes east coast, that's why they have the east coast conferences at the most reachable placee :p
23:07	Turtl3boi	i wonder why that is
23:07	Turtl3boi	maybe i should relocate to boston
23:08	Scriptor	well, the confs are in north carolina of all places
23:09	tmciver	Yeah, but I didn't mind; I liked driving in NC better than Boston.
23:09	tmciver	I've lived in Mass my whole life and I still can't find my way through Boston.
23:11	Turtl3boi	is boston a good place to meet girls
23:11	Turtl3boi	or is that more new york
23:12	tmciver	Not bad but probably not as good as NY or SF.
23:13	Turtl3boi	what's a better place to get a programming job? SF or boston
23:14	Scriptor	hmm, I wonder how fast I could whip up basic clojure->php
23:14	Turtl3boi	what's clojure -> php? you mean a translation program
23:15	Scriptor	something like that
23:15	tmciver	Not sure, but if you want to do Java web dev, you'd have no trouble getting a job in Boston.
23:15	Turtl3boi	can i watch you as you program it
23:15	Turtl3boi	can i view your desktop or something
23:15	Turtl3boi	java web dev? you mean like javascript web apps?
23:15	Turtl3boi	or JVM related web apps
23:15	Scriptor	sure, it's just going to have a lot of alt tabbing to irc, email, or reddit
23:16	Scriptor	jvm web apps
23:16	Turtl3boi	doesn't that mean just embedding an applet? ( i vaguely remember this from my old programming course)
23:17	tmciver	backend: Servlets, JBoss, Tomcat
23:18	Scriptor	yep, there's a huge market for server-side java
23:18	Turtl3boi	that sounds hard haha
23:27	amalloy	Scriptor: isn't that what pharen was/is?
23:27	amalloy	clojure->php, that is
23:38	Scriptor	amalloy: a lot of it is inspired by clojure, but not completely
23:38	Scriptor	no sequences, no keywords, some syntax differences
23:38	Scriptor	mostly calling it clojure would set too many expectations :)
23:39	amalloy	heh
23:39	amalloy	if you're serious about doing it, you should check in with ambrosebs - i imagine his cljs compiler/analyzer work would be relevant
23:40	Turtl3boi	what's the purpose of translating clojure into PHP
23:42	tmciver	you don't have to write PHP
23:42	amalloy	it's easy to think in clojure, and easy to run php in an enterprisey setting :P
23:43	Turtl3boi	so clojure is easier to think in?
23:43	Turtl3boi	it seems a pain in the butt for me
23:43	Turtl3boi	i thought it was just better in terms of multi threaded
23:44	amalloy	Turtl3boi: bro, if you want people to answer "no" to that question, you should hang out somewhere other than #clojure
23:44	Turtl3boi	LoL
23:44	Turtl3boi	sorry man i'm still a newb
23:45	tmciver	Turtl3boi: me too. It is hard at first if you don't have a functional programming background, as I didn't. But it's worth the mental strain.
23:46	amalloy	at my last job there were a few hard problems that i wrote first in clojure and translated to php, because it's easier to experiment in clojure, and you don't have to shout so loud to get the computer to understand what you mean
23:46	Turtl3boi	what's the best way to get started in functional programming?
23:47	amalloy	read code, write code. hang out in #clojure or #haskell
23:47	tmciver	Turtl3boi: and take a look at 4clojure.com
23:48	tmciver	in fact, I have to get back there myself.
23:48	Turtl3boi	thanks
23:48	Turtl3boi	i meant to buy joy of clojure today but didn't get back to the store
23:49	tmciver	Turtl3boi: Halloway's Programming Clojure is a great starter book.
23:49	amalloy	Turtl3boi: the store!!!!? get it from manning.com, they have pdf and mobile download versions to go with your pBook
23:50	amalloy	though to be fair i believe you get the pdf when you buy the book, even if you get a hard copy from some store
23:50	Turtl3boi	lol you serious
23:50	Scriptor	Turtl3boi: for me, the best way to get started with functional progamming was reading learn you a haskell and trying to implement functions it described before seeing the source
23:50	Scriptor	you could probably do the same with some clojure books
23:51	Turtl3boi	wow that's a good idea
23:51	Scriptor	lyah does a pretty good job of teaching functional basics, especially good recursion
23:52	Turtl3boi	amalloy are you saying it's free at manning.com?
23:52	Turtl3boi	or are you saying just don't go drive to the store to buy it
23:52	Scriptor	and lyah online is free
23:52	amalloy	Turtl3boi: the pdf is free if you get the book
23:52	Scriptor	amalloy: does cljs use a custom-built parser?
23:52	amalloy	Scriptor: no, it just uses clojure.core/read
23:53	Scriptor	oh right, I remember reading it a little
23:53	amalloy	Turtl3boi: also, i think someone recommended SICP to you already. it's an excellent book and enjoyable read, and free online, though IMO a bit heavy
23:53	Scriptor	I remember hearing of a good precursor to sicp
23:54	Scriptor	Turtl3boi: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2115756
23:55	Scriptor	Turtl3boi: also, clojure and lisp in general is definitely easier to think in for many things
23:55	skeeterbug	is practical clojure any good?
23:55	Scriptor	macros are fun too