#clojure – 2011-12-11

2011-12-11

00:56	georgek	I have an array map of rss feeds, I then got a sequence by mapping :entries over the values of the map. Now I want to get the :title of each entry, but I can't figure out how to map :title over each item of :entries; the sequence I have is a sequence of sequences basically
00:56	tomoj	you want a seq of all the titles of all the entries, or a seq of seqs of titles for each feed?
00:58	georgek	a sequence of all the titles for all the entries; basically the result of combining (map :title (first seq)) and (map :title (second seq)), etc.
00:58	tomoj	where combining = concatenating?
00:58	georgek	when I (map :title seq) I get nil nil returned
00:58	georgek	yes tomoj
00:58	tomoj	first off, why an array map? just curious..
00:59	tomoj	I think maybe you're looking for (map :title (mapcat :entries (vals feeds))) though?
00:59	georgek	no reason, it's just what I got back when I zipmapped a vector of strings as keys over a bunch of structmaps (the feeds)
01:00	tomoj	that will actually return a hash map if you have enough feeds - does order matter?
01:00	georgek	nope
01:01	tomoj	(mapcat :entries seq-of-structmaps) will give you one seq of all the entries (mapcat = map+concat)
01:02	georgek	ahh cool, thanks tomoj that's it
01:20	alexbaranosky	duck1123, are you around?
01:32	duck1123	yes
01:38	alexbaranosky	duck1123, care to add your thoughts to this issue?: https://github.com/marick/Midje/issues/72
01:39	duck1123	sure, I'll add it to the ticket
01:46	duck1123	done
01:51	alexbaranosky	thx
02:00	duck1123	just realized I didn't have Midje cloned on this machine. Go long download time. :)
02:17	amalloy	duck1123, alexbaranosky: as i understand it, you can put facts inside of deftests, and then the usual clojure.test mechanisms work
02:17	amalloy	cake certainly has the option to run just a single test (eg, cake test my.ns/test-name), and i wouldn't be surprised if lein does too
02:18	amalloy	i guess that belongs as a comment on the issue. all right, all right, no need to hassle me
02:20	alexbaranosky	hey amalloy, glad to have your input
02:30	pierre-renaux	Hi, my first time here, I'm playing around with Clojure, I have a "test" problem for which I build a binary tree. It works fine, but... I'm wondering if anyone would be willing to check out the implementation to see if there's a way to make it faster, its quite a bit recursive (not 'recur' recursive :s)
02:37	amalloy	trees generally are
02:40	pierre-renaux	the main issue I have is that each node as a min/max value (an integer)
02:41	pierre-renaux	and every time I insert a value in the tree each parent node "before" the leaf have to update their min/max
02:41	amalloy	yep. that's pretty much how it has to work
02:42	pierre-renaux	one way I can think of is to index those min/max in an external (mutable) array... but well, I suppose its pretty obvious that it isnt pretty :P
02:42	pierre-renaux	... since the min/max is the only thing that really change when I insert... and of course the leaf node added every time...
02:43	pierre-renaux	... I'm looking at this because its by far the most time consuming part of the test...
02:43	amalloy	pierre-renaux: if you're interested in data-structure stuff, you might like okasaki's Purely Functional Data Structures. or you can read some bloggy things online
02:43	pierre-renaux	an implementation in C++, using mutable structure, doesn't even register the tree building part...
02:44	pierre-renaux	(I mean its almost free, looking at profiling data)
02:44	pierre-renaux	in the Clojure implementation its ~70-80% of the time spent...
02:45	pierre-renaux	I've read quite a bit of stuff, its not that I dont understand how it works, is just that I'm not sure if there's a better way...
02:45	amalloy	pierre-renaux: you're trying out a new language, and the first thing you're doing is comparing the speed of your back-of-the-envelope implementations against a C++ impl you're comfortable with? what's the point?
02:45	pierre-renaux	I have 4 different implementations :P
02:46	pierre-renaux	well, that's not my point
02:46	pierre-renaux	I'm pretty sure that if I use the Java - mutable structures in Clojure
02:46	pierre-renaux	I'll get the same perf as the C++ implementation...
02:46	pierre-renaux	I'm trying to figure out how to build the immutable tree efficiently
02:47	amalloy	why?
02:47	clojurebot	amalloy: because you can't handle the truth!
02:47	pierre-renaux	:P
02:55	amalloy	seriously this seems like a complete waste of your time. learn how to use the language, get comfortable with how to write expressive code. if what you really want is to write code that looks like C++ and performs exactly as well, then just write C++
02:57	pierre-renaux	right, point well taken
02:58	pierre-renaux	but I can't really think of a "better" way for this particular case, which is why I'm asking
02:58	pierre-renaux	I have a tree A[min,max] -> B[min,max] -> Leaf[value,index]
02:58	pierre-renaux	min/max are min/max of the index in the Leaf
02:58	pierre-renaux	so if I add another value in the tree, I have to update the min/max at each node...
02:59	amalloy	if you add another value to the tree, you have to update all the nodes on its path to the root whether you're tracking min/max at all
02:59	pierre-renaux	mmm
02:59	pierre-renaux	right indeed
03:00	amalloy	$google clojure persistenthashmap higher-order
03:00	lazybot	[Assoc and Clojure's PersistentHashMap: part ii \| Higher-Order] http://blog.higher-order.net/2010/08/16/assoc-and-clojures-persistenthashmap-part-ii/
03:00	amalloy	you might find that useful if you want to read about trees
03:00	pierre-renaux	right I have read that
03:00	devn	great article
03:00	pierre-renaux	I've reimplemented those in C++... so I do know how it works fairly well
03:01	pierre-renaux	I'm wondering if there's some idiomatic way to build that type of trees with immutable datastructure that could be more efficient than the "naive" way...
03:05	amalloy	mutably or immutably in c++? it seems like immutability is what's giving you pause, so having implemented a mutable version in c++ isn't necessarily a very useful exercise
03:05	amalloy	seriously though, if you've implemented those in c++ you probably know your stuff, data-structure wise, so okasaki would be a great book to dive into
03:07	amalloy	for me it's a bit too heavy but it sounds like it's targeted at exactly what you want to learn
03:07	pierre-renaux	right, its about immutability, the PersistentHashMap in C++ as the same "issue" as the one in Clojure, I mentioned the C++ implementation as an example of what I'm seeing with a "mutable" implementation... not really anything particualr to the language
03:08	pierre-renaux	my main "pause" is about how to efficiently initialize those immutable structure
03:08	pierre-renaux	using a transient version helps a bit (about 50%) better, but I'm wondering if there isn't even a better way to do it :P
03:09	pierre-renaux	what I didn't try yet, is to build the tree concurrently, I'm concerned "merging" it at the end could be quite painfull...
03:12	tomoj	pierre-renaux: do you mean like this? http://www.sitepoint.com/hierarchical-data-database-2/ ...not to suggest I can help you, just trying to understand what you mean :)
03:13	tomoj	..or is it min/max of the values on the nodes?
03:15	pierre-renaux	well, the min/max isn't really the main issue - as amaolly pointed out - I guess it just boils down to "what is the most efficient way to build an immutable binary tree whith a fairly deep hierarchy when each new insert starts at the root node"
03:16	pierre-renaux	the efficiency issue comes - I'm supposing - from the fact that the "whole path" the leaf inserted has to be rebuilt
03:17	amalloy	pierre-renaux: well, the efficient way is not not build deep trees :P
03:17	amalloy	which is why clojure's built-in trees have a branching factor of 32
03:17	pierre-renaux	yes :P
03:17	tomoj	hmm.. zippers don't solve that?
03:17	pierre-renaux	zippers is good to mod in the "middle" of the tree
03:18	pierre-renaux	but when I build a deep tree and insert from the root for each new value
03:18	pierre-renaux	it doesnt really help :P
03:22	amalloy	pierre-renaux: zippers do solve some cases of this problem
03:22	pierre-renaux	do you know of any article that explains what happens when a large XML file is loaded ?
03:22	pierre-renaux	its essentially the same issue I believe...
03:22	amalloy	haha. here's my article: "you run out of memory"
03:22	pierre-renaux	:D
03:22	pierre-renaux	I meant something that might explain how to do it efficiently ;)
03:23	amalloy	zippers let you "queue up" a number of sorta "local" changes to the tree, and apply them all at once when you walk back up to the root
03:24	pierre-renaux	mmm
03:24	pierre-renaux	oki, so it kinds of "buffer" the build, and "commits" it when you ask for the root back ?
03:24	amalloy	doesn't help if you have a bunch of random changes all over the tree, but if you're working on one area for a while...
03:25	pierre-renaux	right, that was my understanding
03:25	amalloy	yes, that is one effect it has
03:26	devn	The more I use noir the more I enjoy it.
03:39	tomoj	huh.. is the idea that you only have one app?
03:40	tomoj	i.e. defpage anywhere in the code defines a page in that one web app?
03:41	tomoj	oh, or just one per namespace passed to noir.server/start..?
03:42	tomoj	no, wow, there is one global route table? is it just me or is that odd?
03:46	amalloy	tomoj: i mean, i guess it seems a little short-sighted, but it's pretty normal to have one jvm per app?
03:50	duck1123	I wonder, what are the performance differences between checking every route in your app, vs splitting of into sub-matches based on url path components
03:51	duck1123	I'm sure it's highly dependant on the number of routes
03:51	tomoj	yeah.. I'm not thinking "man I really want to have two apps at once" but "man defpage -> swap! noir-routes.. weird"
03:51	tomoj	I mean, it's religious :)
03:53	duck1123	you could use binding on the var that holds the ref to run each site within it's own binding
03:54	duck1123	not that I'm actually sugesting that
03:54	amalloy	duck1123: only if you want each site to have only one thread...?
03:55	duck1123	amalloy: I'm sure if you're masochistic enough to do something like this, you could find a way around that
03:56	duck1123	I've been wanting to find a more efficient way to do the routes in my framework
03:56	tomoj	(defn foo-handler [req] ..) is so beautiful
03:56	duck1123	I run a series of checkers over the route data and the request. and it's a bit wasteful
04:08	tomoj	hmm.. so if e.g. storm's web UI were written with noir instead of compojure, just having storm as a dep might infect my noir app and break everything
04:18	amalloy	oh. wow, yeah, that's a good point
04:18	tomoj	or maybe the :ns option to server/start helps
09:46	cmiles74	I'm moving some code from Clojure 1.2 to 1.3, does anyone know if 'clojure.contrib.mmap' was migrated to one of the modular contrib libraries?
09:48	cmiles74	It's not a lot of code if it wasn't. Handy though :)
09:52	capotribu	hi, don't see any comment for nmap here http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
09:53	cmiles74	Yeah, me neither.
09:54	cmiles74	I work with some big files, I think for now I'm just going to just build a little JAR just for these functions. It's not much code, really.
10:12	ambrosebs	here an example of using the ClojureScript analyzer (with modifications) on Clojure code to detect misplaced docstrings
10:12	ambrosebs	https://github.com/frenchy64/typed-clojure/blob/master/src/clojure_analyzer/docstrings.clj
10:12	ambrosebs	work in progress, but you get the idea
10:53	Borkdude	this might be a dangerous question, but has anyone tried (just for fun) to make a Common Lisp lib for Clojure (so you can just write defun and cond with extra parens etc)?
10:57	Borkdude	,(defmacro defun [name arg-list body] `(defn ~name [~@arg-list] ~body))
10:57	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
11:07	kzar	Does anyone else get that "Debugger entered--Lisp error: (end-of-file)" error using slime, emacs and clojure? I always get it after I evaluate something that returns a lot of data, like if I'm testing a scrape function interactively
11:08	kzar	and then once I get that error I have to disconnect and reconnect slime before I can evaluate anything, it's really annoying
11:20	kzar	Also I'm trying to figure out, what should I use for XML generation? It seems that clojure.xml isn't recommended and lazy-xml is being superseded by data.xml but that's not ready yet.
11:24	Borkdude	kzar I've had this and I had to change some encoding setting, let me find it
11:24	kzar	Borkdude: sweet thanks
11:25	Borkdude	kzar: put this in your init.el or whatever: (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix)
11:25	Borkdude
11:29	kzar	Borkdude: Ah now I'm getting that "error in process filter: Variable binding depth exceeds max-specpdl-size", brb going to restart emacs
11:31	kzar	Borkdude: Yea, that fixed the end-of-file thing, thanks!
11:31	Borkdude	:)
11:31	kzar	Borkdude: Do you know how to fix the max-specpdl-size problem? I always have to just restart emacs
11:31	Borkdude	kzar: can't remember to have seen it
11:34	kzar	shucks OK, still I'm stoked about the end-of-file fix
11:35	mrb_bk	sup, anyone around use gloss at all?
11:35	mrb_bk	seems to not work well with clojure 1.3?
11:36	Borkdude	kzar: tried this? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1322591/tracking-down-max-specpdl-size-errors-in-emacs
11:37	kzar	Borkdude: Ah I'll give that a try later, cheers
11:45	Bronsa	scgilardi: why is it slingshot.slingshot and not slingshot.core or just slingshot?
11:47	ambrosebs	how can you call a macro from apply?
11:47	ambrosebs	,(apply #'-> {} {} [:a :b])
11:47	Bronsa	you cant
11:47	clojurebot	(:b :a)
11:48	ambrosebs	the ClojureScript compiler does, I'm trying to work out how
11:48	Bronsa	there was apply-macro in old contrib
11:48	Bronsa	https://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/blob/2ede388a9267d175bfaa7781ee9d57532eb4f20f/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/apply_macro.clj#L32
11:49	ambrosebs	any idea how the above code that I entered works?
11:53	Bronsa	hm
11:55	Bronsa	no idea
11:55	ambrosebs	this is the line in question https://github.com/frenchy64/typed-clojure/blob/master/src/clojure_analyzer/compiler.clj#L578
11:56	ambrosebs	looks like &form and &env become explicit
11:58	duck1123	Borkdude, thanks for that fix to kzar's problem. (I've had that same one myself)
11:58	ambrosebs	,(apply #'-> 'a {} [#'-> {:a :b} :b])
11:58	clojurebot	(clojure.core/-> (clojure.core/-> #'clojure.core/-> {:a :b}) :b)
11:59	duck1123	mrb_bk: which version of gloss are you using? I know that gloss works because it's used in aleph
11:59	mrb_bk	duck1123: aleph with clojure 1.3?
12:00	duck1123	yeah, I did the patches that made it work, but ztellman merged them in
12:00	mrb_bk	oh yeah i saw that
12:00	mrb_bk	duck1123: 0.2.0
12:00	duck1123	you need 0.2.1-SNAPSHOT for 1.3
12:00	mrb_bk	oh okay cool
12:00	mrb_bk	thanks!
12:02	mrb_bk	duck1123: perfect!
12:06	Bronsa	ambrosebs: i think i got it
12:06	Bronsa	when using a macro as a function, the first two parameters get binded as &form and &env
12:06	Bronsa	oh, you said it too
12:07	ambrosebs	do you know what the "rest" args are for?
12:08	Bronsa	im not sure i understood your question
12:09	ambrosebs	oh I see, the first 2 args are special, then the rest are as normal
12:09	Bronsa	yes
12:09	ambrosebs	awesome thanks :)
12:16	ambrosebs	is there a difference between using `in-ns` and binding ns to change namespace?
12:19	wiseen	is there a way to start lein test as a "server" so I don't have to restart JVM all the time with lein test ?
12:22	Bronsa	ambrosebs: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java#L204 it seems this is actually what in-ns does :P
12:23	ambrosebs	Bronsa: I'm glad you found it, I figured the impl would be deep down :P
12:38	ambrosebs	,(.startWith "asdf" "asd")
12:38	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: startWith for class java.lang.String>
12:38	ambrosebs	,(.startsWith "asdf" "asd")
12:38	clojurebot	true
12:39	ambrosebs	,(.startsWith (str "asdf") "asd")
12:39	clojurebot	true
12:39	ambrosebs	:) nvm, typo
12:52	devn	Never forget that it is a waste of energy to do the same thing twice, and that if you know precisely what is to be done, you need not do it at all. -- E. E. "Doc" Smith (1930)
13:13	cemerick	So, just how evil would it be to define a type that implements e.g. IPersistentMap, but proxies database state?
13:15	lnostdal	with a cache that would be evil cool, cemerick
13:16	cemerick	what would the cache get you?
13:16	ambrosebs	what's the function to print a Java class's fields and methods?
13:16	lnostdal	hm, yeah, i guess the map would "be" the "cache" actually
13:17	cemerick	ambrosebs: see clojure.reflect/reflect
13:17	cemerick	lnostdal: There wouldn't be any storage; assoc would put, get would get, dissoc would delete, etc.
13:17	cemerick	It strikes me as a really bad idea. :-P
13:18	Bronsa	wouldn't this be mutable state?
13:18	ambrosebs	cemerick: cheers
13:18	cemerick	yeah
13:19	Bronsa	and mutable state is bad right?
13:19	cemerick	All databases are mutable state.
13:19	Bronsa	that's a good point
13:20	cemerick	Part of me wants to be able to utilize the vocabulary provided by assoc/dissoc/into/update-in, etc.
13:36	TimMc	cemerick: ORM!
13:36	TimMc	It would be pretty evil, since the DB is not... persistent.
13:38	TimMc	cemerick: OR... "Duh, what did you think 'persistent" meant."
13:39	technomancy_	devn: is that the same doc smith as the guy who pioneered the space opera?
13:41	Borkdude	I have always disliked working with databases because of their mutability
13:43	TimMc	At least they have a good concurrency story...
13:44	Borkdude	Why does everyone use the word "story" in Clojure world
13:44	Bronsa	also "to complect"
13:44	Borkdude	just wondering where that came from ;)
13:44	TimMc	Borkdude: I think it's an enterprisey thing.
13:44	Borkdude	and "mitigate"
13:45	Borkdude	TimMc: I don't like enterprisey things
13:45	TimMc	"complect" comes from Rich's talk "Simple Made Easy", which is worht a watch
13:45	Bronsa	yeah, i watched it
13:45	Borkdude	is it like Scrum "user stories"?
13:45	TimMc	Borkdude: That's my guess.
13:46	TimMc	A lot of Clojurians (conj-urers?) come from the Java world, which is pretty enterprisey.
13:47	Borkdude	TimMc: I get critized for using Clojure because it is too immature (un-enterprisey), this guy believes you cannot do "big" projects with it
13:48	Borkdude	TimMc: because in OO world there are a lot of tools, methods, notation (UML) and documentation, unlike in the functional/Clojure realm.
13:49	mbac	(ns foo (:require clojure.contrib.json))
13:49	mbac	(read-json "{}")
13:49	mbac	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: read-json in this context (NO_SOURCE_
13:49	mbac	say what?
13:49	Bronsa	s/require/use/
13:49	Borkdude	mbac: you have to prefix it with the namespace name you required
13:49	Borkdude	mbac: or "use" it like Bronsa suggests
13:49	mbac	oh, is that the difference between require and use?
13:49	Borkdude	mbac: yup
13:49	cgray	just curious: why is last not implemented as (nth coll (dec (count coll))) ? wouldn't that at least make it constant-time for vectors?
13:50	Borkdude	,(source last)
13:50	mbac	why does require exist at all then?
13:50	clojurebot	Source not found
13:50	Borkdude	mbac: so your namespace does't get polluted with vars you don't need
13:51	cgray	Borkdude: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/last#source
13:51	TimMc	mbac: Use :require with :as.
13:51	Borkdude	mbac: or to distinguish clearly, for example you can do : require :as json and then every json function you can call like: (json/function ...)
13:52	TimMc	http://blog.8thlight.com/articles/2010/12/6/clojure-libs-and-namespaces-require-use-import-and-ns
13:52	Borkdude	cgray: hmmm, I didn't know that it walked the entire seq in case it is a vector
13:53	cgray	Borkdude: yeah, I was surprised too... I bet there's a good reason that I'm not seeing though
13:53	Borkdude	cgray: maybe there is some trickery going on with protocols or smth, I don't know
13:54	TimMc	Huh, that's an ugly surprise.
13:54	mbac	what i mean is if you still have to fully qualify the package even after you say require, what's the point of require
13:54	TimMc	mbac: :as
13:54	TimMc	you don't
13:55	Borkdude	mbac: if you don't do require at all, it doesn't even know it I guess?
13:56	TimMc	mbac: Are you asking why you have to require at all if you just use a FQNS?
13:56	mbac	yeah
13:56	TimMc	Ah, I see. That's a good question.
13:57	TimMc	It doesn't have parity with import, does it.
13:57	TimMc	I can do java.io.File without importing.
14:00	Borkdude	,(loaded-libs)
14:00	clojurebot	#{clojure.java.io clojure.repl}
14:00	Borkdude	,(clojure-version)
14:00	clojurebot	"1.3.0"
14:05	Borkdude	mbac: https://gist.github.com/1462160
14:07	Scriptor	where did Hiccup get its name from?
14:08	chessguy	howdy ya'all
14:09	Raynes	... partner.
14:09	mbac	Borkdude, what's this? :)
14:09	Scriptor	wait, better question, is james reeves on irc?
14:10	TimMc	&(keyword "-)")
14:10	lazybot	⇒ :-)
14:10	Borkdude	mbac: an answer to your question about require?
14:10	mbac	just checking
14:10	mbac	:)
14:12	chessguy	so i'm a bit confused about how to use clojure.test. can i just feed a file with tests to clojure from the command-line?
14:13	mbac	why are def and defn different?
14:13	mbac	can't clojure just treat defs with more than 2 atoms as a function definition?
14:14	kumarshantanu	mbac: that sounds leaky; what do you mean?
14:14	Borkdude	mbac: defn is a special case of def
14:15	Borkdude	mbac: it is shorthand for (def my-var (fn ....))
14:15	Borkdude	,(source defn)
14:15	clojurebot	Source not found
14:15	Borkdude	this doesn't work right?
14:15	mbac	sometimes i say (def base_url "http://example.com/") but then i go oh wait it's a function of your session-id so i change it to (def base_url [session_id] (str "http://example.com/" session_id))
14:15	mbac	and then clojure's like fuck you you forgot to say defn
14:15	mbac	and i'm like damnit you can figure it out
14:16	mbac	:(
14:16	Borkdude	mbac: you should just write defn if you want to define a function
14:16	Borkdude	mbac: or (def my-var (fn [session-id ...)))
14:16	mbac	i'm simply asking if there's a reason clojure can't overload the meaning of def
14:16	flashingpumpkin	hey guys. how would I access a hash-map value when I've got the key in a variable?
14:17	Borkdude	mbac: such cleverness will only lead to more confusion
14:17	ssideris	flashingpumpkin: (get map key)
14:17	Bronsa	mbac: since 1.3 def supports an optional doc argoument for def
14:17	Scriptor	yea, (def base-url [session-id]) would be assigning a one-element list to base-url
14:17	Bronsa	so you can (def a [] "doc")
14:17	mbac	borkdude, disagree. i have this expectation from using ocaml
14:17	Bronsa	and this means a has value [] and as doc "doc"
14:17	kumarshantanu	defn also adorns the var with metadata (type hints, documentation etc)
14:17	Bronsa	but (defn a [] "doc") is different
14:17	Borkdude	mbac: ocaml isn't a lisp
14:18	Bronsa	it's a function that returns the string "doc"
14:18	mbac	where let base_url = "http://example.com" can extend smoothyl to let base_url session_id ("http://example.com/" ^ session_id)
14:18	flashingpumpkin	ssideris, https://gist.github.com/889a2535b84ef1d3b996
14:18	mbac	borkdude, no, but it aspires to functional platitudes :)
14:18	mbac	(clojure does)
14:18	mbac	i think?
14:18	Borkdude	mbac: clojure doesn't have currying
14:18	Borkdude	mbac: and I think what you are showing has to do with currying
14:18	mbac	anyway, i was wondering if there was a reason why this wouldn't work and bronsa had a good answer
14:18	mbac	doc strings
14:19	mbac	borkdude, this has nothing to do with currying
14:19	Scriptor	mbac: you're asking why (def base-url [session-id]) isn't detected as being a function definition?
14:19	mbac	scriptor, yeah
14:19	wiseen	can anyone help me figure out how to run clojure tests with lein so that I don't have to reload JVM every time I run lein ?
14:19	Scriptor	mbac: because that's also valid as assigning a list to base-url
14:19	mbac	yeah, i see the error of my ways now
14:19	Scriptor	namely, a one-element list containing session-id
14:19	flashingpumpkin	ah. ssideris if the key is actually a string it works :)
14:19	ssideris	flashingpumpkin: yeah, :foo is not the same as "foo"
14:20	flashingpumpkin	yep
14:20	ssideris	if you have the string, you have to convert it to a keyword first
14:20	kumarshantanu	wiseen: you should pester @icylisper to release Jark with Lein integration
14:20	ssideris	(get map (keyword s))
14:20	ssideris	where s is the string
14:22	wiseen	kumarshantanu, what's Jark ? google isn't helpful
14:22	cemerick	TimMc: I'd never suggest an ORM ;-)
14:22	kumarshantanu	wiseen: http://icylisper.in/jark/
14:23	wiseen	kumarshantanu, tnx will look in to it
14:24	Borkdude	mbac: you're right; let in ocaml can be used for simple values or functions, it is just clever syntax, whereas clojure is more like other lisps: if you want to write things more clever, write a macro (like defn)
14:25	daniel___	(def conn mongo/make-connection "iskine" :host "127.0.0.1" :port 27017)
14:25	mbac	i was more curious if there was a reason wasn't feasible
14:25	mbac	than anything
14:25	daniel___	Caused by: java.lang.RuntimeException: Too many arguments to def
14:25	daniel___	im trying to use congomongo, getting this error
14:26	Bronsa	should be (def conn (mongo/make-connection ..))
14:26	Borkdude	daniel___: you are forgetting parens before mongo/... and after 27017
14:26	ssideris	daniel___: (def conn (mongo/make-...))
14:26	daniel___	i see, github readme is wrong then
14:26	daniel___	should have realised anyway
14:30	daniel___	docs also tell you to use mongo/make-connection but on the import line they dont create the mongo namespace
14:31	Borkdude	mbac: you might also want to read this SO question http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2570628/difference-in-f-and-clojure-when-calling-redefined-functions
14:31	Borkdude	mbac: I was confused when I just started clojure after doing some F# (derived from Ocaml)
14:33	mbac	borkdude, yikes
14:33	mbac	that's good to know
14:34	Bronsa	mbac: if you defined g as (defn g [x] (#'f x))
14:34	mbac	what's the term for this behavior? the top-level defs are dynamically scoped?
14:34	Bronsa	the resoul would be the same as in f#
14:34	Bronsa	omni5cience:
14:34	Bronsa	ops
14:35	Borkdude	vars have a root binding and you can give them a thread local binding, but I'm always confused about vars, so maybe someone else can explain this better
14:36	Borkdude	mbac: http://clojure.org/vars
14:37	Borkdude	mbac: I guess the example in F# you can read as nested lets right
14:38	mbac	yeah
14:47	chessguy	i'm a bit confused about how to use clojure.test. can i just feed a file with tests to clojure from the command-line?
14:48	Borkdude	chessguy: I guess you can do (run-tests) and then it runs all tests from all referenced namespaces
14:48	chessguy	Borkdude: i've tried doing a (load-file ...) at the repl, and then doing (run-all-tests), but it's not working
14:49	chessguy	it doesn't recognize the run-all-tests symbol
14:50	Borkdude	chessguy: hmm..
14:50	chessguy	let me show the code
14:50	Borkdude	chessguy: what clojure version?
14:50	chessguy	Borkdude: umm, i cloned github and built that, so whatever that is
14:50	Borkdude	chessguy: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.test/run-all-tests < 1.3.0
14:51	Borkdude	chessguy: do you have a repl? type: (clojure-version)
14:51	chessguy	ah, nice
14:51	chessguy	1.4.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
14:52	chessguy	it's unable to resolve (run-tests) too
14:52	Borkdude	chessguy: did you use clojure.test?
14:52	Borkdude	chessguy: or require
14:53	chessguy	Borkdude: here's the code: https://gist.github.com/1462396
14:54	chessguy	Borkdude: i did a use
14:55	Borkdude	chessguy: from where are you calling run-tests then
14:56	chessguy	Borkdude: from a repl, i did a (load-file "unify_test.clj")
14:56	chessguy	and (run-all-tests)
14:56	Borkdude	chessguy: you typed all of this into a repl?
14:56	chessguy	Borkdude: the code in the gist is in two files. i put comments with the filenames
14:57	Borkdude	chessguy: right. you need to use clojure.test also from the repl
14:57	chessguy	Borkdude: oh really? why?
14:57	chessguy	ah, you're right, that worked.
14:57	Borkdude	chessguy: because then the test lib gets loaded and run-tests will become available from your namespace
14:58	chessguy	Borkdude: does it not get loaded when i specfy ":use clojure.test" in the namespace?
14:58	Borkdude	chessguy: now it is only available from building-problem-solvers, not from your repl namespace, unless you do (in-ns 'building-problem-solvers)
14:58	chessguy	ah. which is probably notn what i want anyway
14:59	daniel___	in noir, how can i pass content through to the general layout from a defpage? i have some links that are in the layout but they depend on attributes like :id from each page
14:59	Borkdude	chessguy: use doesn't work transitively, it would mean a cluttered namespace
15:00	daniel___	in other words i need some kind of placeholder in the layout that i later define in the defpage
15:00	chessguy	hmm. it looks like i still need to use clojure.test from within the namespace, to be able to define the test
15:00	Borkdude	daniel___: sounds like a perfect use for Enlive
15:01	TimMc	chessguy: I just use `lein test`. -.-
15:01	Borkdude	chessguy: yes, you need to 'use' it everywhere you 'use' it ;)
15:01	chessguy	Borkdude: thanks for your help
15:01	daniel___	Borkdude: dunno what that is but ill have a search
15:01	chessguy	TimMc: i haven't gotten around to lein yet
15:01	TimMc	How is that possible? :-P
15:02	Borkdude	daniel___: Enlive is a templating library
15:02	Borkdude	daniel___: so you don't have to construct html from clojure, but just plain html file which you can use as a template with selectors etc
15:03	Borkdude	daniel___: I bet you can also use html contructed with hiccup but I haven't used it like that
15:04	TimMc	daniel___: Enlive's documentation is terrible, but it is a pretty useful lib.
15:05	daniel___	TimMc: most clojure libs seem to have terrible documentation, at least for beginners
15:05	daniel___	noir/korma are quite good
15:13	Borkdude	daniel___: I guess this is an argument for the immaturity of Clojure libs for enterprise
15:14	Borkdude	daniel___: missing docs, things are still moving fast
15:15	chessguy	TimMc: ok, i've almost got it turned into a lein project. it still complains when i try to 'lein test', though
15:15	chessguy	TimMc: says it can't find the .class or .clj file on the classpath
15:19	Borkdude	chessguy: move your .clj into a dir named project/src/name and make the name of the dir and the namespace of your .clj file the same
15:19	Borkdude	chessguy: but you might have figured this out already
15:24	chessguy	Borkdude: i'm almost there, but something's still not quit lining up right: https://github.com/arwagner/bps-clojure
15:26	chessguy	i'm guessing it's because i was inconsistent about sometimes abbreviating bps and sometimes not
15:31	Borkdude	chessguy: normally, when you have a project and a src dir with a clj file directly in it called core, you have to refe it like: projectname.core
15:32	Borkdude	chessguy: but when you use an extra subsir you have to refer it like: projectname.subsir.core and also declare it like this
15:32	chessguy	Borkdude: i just pushed a change to make some stuff more consistent. lein created a projectname subdir under src
15:33	Borkdude	ok
15:33	Borkdude	and did it also create the core.clj?
15:33	chessguy	yes
15:35	Borkdude	chessguy: my advise, just make a new project with "lein new" and move in your code gradually
15:35	Borkdude	chessguy: also _ and - can be tricky
15:35	chessguy	Borkdude: that's what i tried to do
15:35	chessguy	i guess i'll start over again...
15:38	mbac	i don't quite grok how to deal with the 1.3 contrib world
15:39	mbac	am i supposed to download the modules i need and somehow tell clj where to find them?
15:39	Borkdude	mbac: http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Clojure+Contrib
15:39	Borkdude	mbac: are you using leiningen?
15:40	flashingpumpkin	mbac, Borkdude, same puzzling here - and yep using leiningen
15:40	mbac	i do for quick development, but i'm also using a ~/bin/clj script which doesn't seem to line up with whatever leiningen does
15:42	mbac	borkdude, i don't know how to use the information on that page
15:42	Borkdude	mbac: from project.clj just [org.clojure/core.logic "0.6.8-SNAPSHOT"]
15:42	mbac	i want to usea standalone script without leiningen
15:43	mbac	or, better yet, put leiningen into my #! line
15:44	Borkdude	mbac: I only did it the leiningen way so far, sorry
15:44	mbac	yeah, i guess i'll give up and use leiningen
15:48	gfredericks	There are 7 times more google results for "vim to emacs" than "emacs to vim"
15:49	companion_cube	that must mean that more people use vim :]
15:49	gfredericks	I had not thought of it that way.
15:52	duck1123	more people want to leave vim
15:54	gfredericks	maybe the switch to emacs is much more painful and so more likely to be blogged about.
15:54	companion_cube	yeah, the amount of blogging does not reflect the popularuty
15:54	companion_cube	popularity*
15:55	duck1123	I guess if you know emacs, then vim is just one big annoying piece of cake. Not so the other way
15:56	daniel___	Borkdude: i realised by reading the noir tutorial that i can achieve what i wanted by just passing extra variables through to defpartial
15:57	gfredericks	is there an argument to emacs that makes it open in a terminal?
15:57	daniel___	i thought you could only do it on defpage, but it works with something like (defpartial layout [id name & content] ...
15:57	daniel___	gfredericks: -nw
15:57	gfredericks	daniel___: thx
15:58	duck1123	gfredericks: if you already have emacs running somewhere else: emacsclient -ct
16:01	Borkdude	daniel___: ah good
16:01	gfredericks	duck1123: man I don't even know what that means. emacs is/can-be client-server?
16:02	Borkdude	duck1123: emacsclient -nw or emacsclient -ct does exactly the same thing for me when I have emacs running
16:02	duck1123	gfredericks: put (start-server) at the bottom of your init file, then you can open multiple connections to the same emacs session
16:03	duck1123	I have two computers here, so I'll open a x11 forwarded ssh session and have them both work on the same emacs instance
16:03	gfredericks	I think I will have to learn some basics first.
16:03	Borkdude	duck1123: I think -t just means -nw
16:03	gfredericks	I just looked up how to move the cursor up/down/left/right.
16:03	Borkdude	duck1123: -c is only useful if you want to use it from a window
16:04	duck1123	Borkdude: are you sure client takes the -nw flag, i thought that was only for emacs
16:04	Borkdude	duck1123: according to emacsclient --help it does
16:04	gfredericks	I was hoping C-h would backspace like it does everywhere else. Unfortunately it helped.
16:04	daniel___	gfredericks: what editor are you more used to?
16:04	gfredericks	daniel___: the other one
16:04	daniel___	me too, tried vimclojure?
16:05	gfredericks	yep
16:05	gfredericks	couldn't get it to do anything fancy
16:05	duck1123	Borkdude: hmm, looks like you're right. I seem to remember at one time that not working
16:05	gfredericks	mostly it just indented exactly the way I didn't want
16:05	daniel___	i like it for syntax-highlighting, paren matching, and indenting
16:06	gfredericks	I probably didn't learn it well enough
16:06	duck1123	gfredericks: C-h is for help-related options. You can rebind it (as with everything) but I wouldn't recommend it
16:06	daniel___	i am also trying to learn emacs because lein-nailgun doesnt seem to be as good or easy to use as swank
16:06	gfredericks	I've tried to learn emacs maybe twice before.
16:07	daniel___	still wishing there was a better option for vim though
16:08	daniel___	i find myself trying to make emacs as much like vim as i can
16:10	gfredericks	I will learn emacs and org-mode and xmonad in parallel. Maybe.
16:10	daniel___	had never even heard of org-mode tbh, isnt it just an extension of emacs?
16:11	duck1123	org-mode is concentrated awesome
16:11	gfredericks	I'm trying to get off of tomboy
16:12	daniel___	org-mode looks interesting, tbh i just use a textfile or something like notepad.cc
16:15	duck1123	I need to revise my use of org-mode. I used to be really into, but I fell out of practice
16:15	daniel___	do people have any preferences when working with javascript with a clojure web framework? are there any worthwhile advantage si can get from using something like clojurescript? just write plain javascript/jquery? any good libraries for coffeescript?
16:16	amalloy	daniel___: my experience is that the clojure community mostly scoffs at coffeescript; some see an advantage in using clojurescript; others stick with javascript
16:17	amalloy	scoffeescript?
16:19	daniel___	tbh i think coffeescript has nice syntax but doesnt seem to provide any real advantages and it's just one-more thing to learn
16:19	gfredericks	amalloy: really? I'm curious why somebody would prefer javascript over coffeescript.
16:19	daniel___	im worried clojurescript is a bit immature
16:19	lnostdal	this doesn't apply for 1.3 anymore (or i'm testing with 1.4-SNAPSHOT really)? http://cemerick.com/2009/11/03/be-mindful-of-clojures-binding/
16:20	Scriptor	coffeescript fixes a bunch of things that irked js developers for years, there's definitely a point to using it
16:20	gfredericks	I've used coffeescript in a big project at work the last few months, and have never regretted it. Wished clojurescript had been around sooner, but certainly didn't want to use JS
16:21	Scriptor	yea, you can scoff at it all you want, but it grew extremely quickly after it was released
16:22	Scriptor	I'm still debating on that, I like having it set to esc for now
16:22	duck1123	gfredericks: you actually have a reason to retain caps?
16:23	gfredericks	Yeah I was just thinking there wasn't much of a point to that.
16:23	gfredericks	but this forces me to retrain
16:23	gfredericks	Any recommended alt uses for the LCtrl?
16:24	gfredericks	it's so far away I can't imagine anything being all that compelling...
16:24	Scriptor	caps lock :p
16:24	duck1123	bind it to hyper, then program a whole new level of commands
16:24	gfredericks	duck1123: is that a real thing?
16:24	amalloy	gfredericks: i leave it as another ctrl; in a few combinations it's easier to use than caps
16:24	JaegerBar	hi
16:25	duck1123	gfredericks: yes
16:25	amalloy	eg, for ctl-shift-tab it seems better. and i already have a super key i don't use; not much value in hyper :P
16:26	gfredericks	I've been wanting to map from C-Space to Tab, but google doesn't produce any magic xmodmap code for it, and the whole subject seems too complex to learn easily
16:26	TimMc	daniel___: ClojureScript is immature.
16:26	gfredericks	TimMc: does it have rationals yet?
16:26	TimMc	No idea.
16:27	amalloy	gfredericks: i don't think xmodmap lets you do that. i'm not sure it's a good idea either; c-spc is pretty handy in emacs
16:27	gfredericks	amalloy: what's it do?
16:27	amalloy	set the mark
16:27	gfredericks	my pinkie gets tired during tab-completions
16:27	amalloy	gfredericks: M-/
16:28	amalloy	(and in C-u C-spc it pops the mark)
16:28	gfredericks	amalloy: is that supposed to work with bash, or just in emacs?
16:28	duck1123	gfredericks: setting the mark allows you to start selecting text. (for cutting or whatever)
16:28	duck1123	there's something similar in screen
16:28	amalloy	gfredericks: probably just emacs, since i think it's supposed to be "dynamic completion", whatever that means
16:29	amalloy	btw, on a barely-related note, C-/ is undo in bash
16:29	gfredericks	I'm always tab-completing stuff at the command line. Maybe I'll do that less w/ emacs? :/
16:29	companion_cube	amalloy: wow, didn't know that
16:30	amalloy	companion_cube: a huge percentage of things you do in emacs work at the command-line, because bash uses readline
16:30	mbac	is there a zip function? (zip [1 2 3] ["a" "b" "c"]) evaluates to [[1 "a"] [2 "b"] [3 "c"]] ?
16:31	companion_cube	but i thought C-/ was 'search' in emacs
16:31	amalloy	~zip
16:31	clojurebot	zip is not necessary in clojure, because map can walk over multiple sequences, acting as a zipWith. For example, (map list '(1 2 3) '(a b c)) yields ((1 a) (2 b) (3 c))
16:31	Chousuke	mbac: map vector
16:31	mbac	neat
16:31	gfredericks	clojurebot: that is handy
16:31	clojurebot	In Ordnung
16:31	gfredericks	ha
16:31	gfredericks	clojurebot: that?
16:31	clojurebot	that is handy
16:32	gfredericks	very nice.
16:32	weavejester	companion_cube: Isn't C-/ undo?
16:33	companion_cube	never mind, i don't know much emacs commands
16:33	JaegerBar	i'm trying to get started in Clojure, which compiler do i need
16:34	weavejester	JaegerBar: You can download the jar from the main site, or use Leiningen, which is a build tool and dependency manager for Clojure.
16:34	duck1123	JaegerBar: you need Java, and while you don't need it, you need leiningen
16:35	JaegerBar	ok
16:35	JaegerBar	does this compile like normal java
16:35	JaegerBar	like do i have to say something similar to "javac ....java"
16:35	weavejester	Not usually. It's more like Python or Ruby
16:36	JaegerBar	so it's a scriptable language
16:36	gtrak```	JaegerBar, it's kinda hard to explain it all over IRC, let me find you a good tutorial
16:36	weavejester	In that it's compiled when you execute it.
16:36	duck1123	clojure's kinda a little of both
16:36	JaegerBar	i saw a book at the store called "The Joy of Clojure: Thinking the Clojure Way" should i get it?
16:36	gfredericks	JaegerBar: yes.
16:36	gtrak```	it's good, but pretty advanced
16:36	JaegerBar	i read the part where it tried to explain functional programming
16:37	JaegerBar	identity vs. state
16:37	JaegerBar	i still am not super sure i understand that but i'm getting there
16:37	gtrak```	http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html#Intro
16:37	amalloy	JoC is the best clojure book. i don't think it's "advanced", it's just "fast"
16:37	JaegerBar	gtrak do you program clojure professionaly
16:38	gtrak```	not so much myself right now, but we have a lot of stuff written in it
16:39	gtrak```	I've read through JoC and done some toy programs, plus some work in an existing large clojure project
16:40	gtrak```	amalloy, I've seen lots of folks say it's a good second book, not first
16:40	JaegerBar	who is "we"
16:40	JaegerBar	your company
16:40	gtrak```	Revelytix
16:40	duck1123	Programming Clojure was a good intro book
16:40	JaegerBar	is clojure used exclusively for threaded programming
16:41	gfredericks	nope
16:41	duck1123	who was the guy at Revelytix that came to michigan for CloudDevDay ?
16:41	JaegerBar	Revelytix is a big time company
16:41	gtrak```	probably Alex?
16:42	JaegerBar	how do you pass a function
16:42	gtrak```	ah, Ryan
16:42	JaegerBar	that's a confusing concept
16:42	gtrak```	Ryan Senior, I've worked with him a little, all those guys are really great
16:42	daniel	is Practical Clojure any good? thats the one im reading
16:43	gfredericks	JaegerBar: that's a fundamental concept in functional programming -- functions can be treated as objects
16:43	JaegerBar	is someone gonna hold my hand on this
16:43	gfredericks	JaegerBar: what programming languages are you most familiar with?
16:43	JaegerBar	or am i on my own
16:43	JaegerBar	just C
16:43	JaegerBar	well C and java i guess
16:43	gfredericks	doesn't C have a bit of that?
16:43	JaegerBar	java i suck at though
16:43	gtrak```	JaegerBar, it's too much for hand-holding, imo :-)
16:44	JaegerBar	i don't know i am not a hardcore C programmer
16:44	amalloy	gfredericks: you can pass functions in c, but you can't return them
16:44	gfredericks	amalloy: C so weird.
16:44	amalloy	well, that's not true
16:44	JaegerBar	i didn't know you could pass a function in C =p
16:44	duck1123	that's what I was thinking
16:44	amalloy	you can't make closures, which is as near as possible as not being able to return them :P
16:44	gtrak```	duck1123, we have a team of 9 in St. Louis doing full clojure, I work mostly on a big java thing, 300k lines :-D
16:45	gfredericks	JaegerBar: one of the things it lets you do is create abstract algorithms. For example I can easily define a function called "do-twice", that takes a function as an argument and calls it twice
16:45	JaegerBar	ha that's really cool
16:45	weavejester	gtrak: Out of interest, how maintainable do you find 300k lines of code?
16:45	duck1123	I'm so happy that I finally got to start using Clojure at work. We've been doing Ruby, but I've re-written a large portion of my app in Clojure
16:45	gfredericks	Not so easily done imperatively
16:46	JaegerBar	is Clojure mainly used now for web programs
16:47	gfredericks	JaegerBar: I think that's a signifiant portion of its uses, but probably not even a majority
16:47	weavejester	JaegerBar: I don't think so... I've seen a lot of data-processing done in Clojure, for instance...
16:47	JaegerBar	duck, what did you write in Ruby/Clojure at work
16:47	gtrak```	weavejester, ha, well, it's my first big project, I'm just out of school 2 years ago so I have no standard to compare against. I find that I have to read every line in whatever subsytem I'm working on before I can make changes confidently. It takes time, but it's doable. Tests help.
16:47	gtrak```	weavejester, honestly, I'm much more scared of other people's clojure code :-)
16:48	weavejester	gtrak: I haven't worked on a software project anywhere near that size before, so I was curious :)
16:48	duck1123	I do data processing, reading streams of blog posts and twitter streams, etc which we process and index for another team
16:48	arkh	it takes 38 seconds for my vm to run cljsc on some simple clojurescript - any recommendations to speed things up? (besides a faster computer)
16:48	gtrak```	weavejester, I'd definitely be lost without the expertise of the senior guys, sometimes they can say in one sentence what would take me days to figure out
16:49	Turtl3boi	show me how to pass a function C
16:49	Turtl3boi	in the C language........because i've never seen dat b4
16:49	gtrak```	hey there Turtl3boi
16:49	Turtl3boi	hi Gtrakh
16:49	duck1123	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9410/how-do-you-pass-a-function-as-a-parameter-in-c
16:50	Turtl3boi	oh yea you pass it as a pointer to function
16:50	Turtl3boi	i don't generally do that very often for whatever reason haha
16:51	gtrak```	well, in C you can't actually have closures since there's no GC
16:51	gtrak```	might be possible with reference counting
16:51	Turtl3boi	what's a closure? haha
16:52	weavejester	CPython ref-counts and has closures, I believe.
16:52	brehaut	weavejester: yes, although its got some stuff in addition to the ref counter for cycles
16:52	gtrak```	,((let [a 1] (fn [] (inc a)))
16:52	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
16:52	gtrak```	,((let [a 1] (fn [] (inc a))))
16:52	clojurebot	2
16:53	bobhope	hello clojuristas, can anyone explain to me what the consequence of disabling occurs-check in a kanren implementation is?
16:53	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, that thing I just wrote calls an anonymous function that closes over the value of a
16:53	weavejester	Turtl3boi: A closure is a function that references the environment in which it was defined.
16:53	weavejester	I think :)
16:53	weavejester	There might be a more accurate description.
16:54	Turtl3boi	ooo anonymous functions again
16:54	gtrak```	it's binding a heap-allocated object to a value that was local at one point
16:54	gtrak```	and then invoking it
16:55	duck1123	the point is, you capture the value of a when you define that fn, then you can pass that fn around, do whatever, and it''l return 2 whenever you do call it
16:55	gtrak```	and it's easy to make functions that make functions
16:56	gtrak```	,((fn [] (fn [] (+ 1 2))))
16:56	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval79$fn__80$fn__81 sandbox$eval79$fn__80$fn__81@611faa>
16:56	gtrak```	,(((fn [] (fn [] (+ 1 2)))))
16:56	clojurebot	3
16:56	Raynes	weavejester: In my experience, the definition of 'closure' is "That's an okay working definition, but it isn't correct."
16:57	Turtl3boi	deconstruct that for me gtrak
16:57	gfredericks	(apply partial (repeat partial)) is a function that makes functions ad infinitum
16:57	Turtl3boi	what does "fn[] (+ 1 2)" do ?
16:57	gfredericks	Turtl3boi: that's a function that adds one and two
16:57	Turtl3boi	does that define a function which adds 1 + 2
16:57	gfredericks	so it returns 3
16:57	weavejester	Turtl3boi: You mean (fn [] (+ 1 2)) ?
16:57	gtrak```	creates a function, the arglist goes in the []
16:57	weavejester	Raynes: Yeah, there's a more accurate computer-sciencey definition
16:58	gtrak```	,((fn [x] (+ 1 x)) 2)
16:58	clojurebot	3
16:58	Turtl3boi	why do you put parens around it weavejester?
16:58	duck1123	to call it
16:58	gtrak```	(fn .. defines the function
16:58	weavejester	Turtl3boi: Because that's the syntax
16:58	gtrak```	((fn .. calls the function that was defined
16:58	Turtl3boi	kk gotcha
16:58	gtrak```	(fn ... actually returns a function
16:58	gfredericks	,(+)
16:58	clojurebot	0
16:58	Turtl3boi	what does the outer "fn [] " do?
16:59	gtrak```	that's just defining a function that returns a function :-)
16:59	gtrak```	you call it once to get the inner, then call that to get the value
17:00	gtrak```	((fn [x] (+ 1 x)) 2) calls the function with 2 as the first parameter, x
17:01	Turtl3boi	,((fn [] (+ 1 2)))
17:01	clojurebot	3
17:01	Turtl3boi	if i add another "fn [] " to the left, what does it do in the above statement?
17:01	Turtl3boi	is that the same as calling it
17:01	gfredericks	,(fn [] (fn [] (+ 1 2)))
17:01	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval221$fn__222 sandbox$eval221$fn__222@12aeb08>
17:02	gfredericks	that just returns the outer function
17:02	TimMc	&(((fn [] (fn [] 5))))
17:02	lazybot	⇒ 5
17:02	TimMc	&((fn [] ((fn [] 5))))
17:02	lazybot	⇒ 5
17:02	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, (fn calls fn
17:02	TimMc	Turtl3boi: This is more clear when you bind the fns to names and then call them.
17:02	gfredericks	is there an alt keybinding in emacs for backspace?
17:03	gtrak```	(let [add (fn [x] (+ 1 x))] (add 6))
17:03	gtrak```	,(let [add (fn [x] (+ 1 x))] (add 6))
17:03	clojurebot	7
17:03	Turtl3boi	,(fn [] (fn [] (+ 1 2)))
17:03	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval55$fn__56 sandbox$eval55$fn__56@d7cdf1>
17:03	Turtl3boi	^ why doesn't athw rok
17:03	Turtl3boi	lol
17:03	gtrak```	it does, that's how a function shows up
17:03	TimMc	,(let [boring (fn [x] (+ 2 x))] (boring 3))
17:03	clojurebot	5
17:03	gfredericks	it does work. what do you want it to do?
17:04	duck1123	gfredericks: If you ever want to get any info about a key sequence: C-h k <sequence>
17:04	TimMc	Oh, gtrak``` beat me to it.
17:04	gtrak```	TimMc, :-D
17:04	daniel	whats the simplest way of password protecting paths with noir? i have a path like /model/:id and this model may or may not have a password attribute set...if it has a password i want to check for the password or redirect
17:04	mindbender	functions are first class objects in clojure just like classes are in java
17:04	TimMc	gtrak```: lazybot was feeding me NPEs on that for some reason
17:04	Raynes	(fn [x] x) <-- returns a new function that returns its argument. Functions are first class in Clojure. You can create this function and then call it immediately like any other function. That's what they did earlier.
17:04	daniel	this is my attempt https://gist.github.com/1463038
17:05	daniel	but seems to pass the when-not, even if i dont pass in any password variable
17:05	Turtl3boi	,(let [bullshit (fn [x] (+ -1 x))] (bullshit 33))
17:05	clojurebot	32
17:05	amalloy	gfredericks: none built in
17:05	gfredericks	duck1123: that's a useful thing to know, but I don't see how it helps me answer my question? I tried it with backspace, and from what I can tell it displayed unrelated information
17:06	Turtl3boi	are functions first class in python?
17:06	mindbender	Turtl3boi: lmao
17:06	gfredericks	amalloy: so you just reach all the way up there all the time?
17:06	gtrak```	i think so
17:06	amalloy	and duck1123 is right - i got that answer by pressing C-h k BACKSPACE
17:06	Turtl3boi	why are you laughing
17:06	mindbender	your choice of symbol
17:07	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, try dir(len) in your python interpreter
17:07	Turtl3boi	ahh haha ok
17:07	gfredericks	amalloy: all I got was some stuff about org-self-insert-command; didn't really understand it
17:07	weavejester	Functions are first class in Python.
17:07	amalloy	gfredericks: well, it generally shows you what other keys it's bound to if there are any
17:07	Raynes	One-line lambdas ftw!
17:08	amalloy	try C-h k C-/ for comparison
17:08	mindbender	weavejester: as it is in any other functional language
17:08	gfredericks	are functions considered first-class in ruby?
17:08	weavejester	mindbender: Well, Python's not a functional language...
17:08	weavejester	gfredericks: No, because technically it just has methods, not functions :)
17:08	mindbender	what makes a language functional?
17:08	Raynes	List comprehensions considered harmful.
17:08	gfredericks	weavejester: that's what I figured
17:08	brehaut	Raynes: one expression, not line
17:09	Raynes	A language creator that doesn't abolish the paradigm, probably.
17:09	weavejester	mindbender: A functional language tries to reduce or restrict side effects
17:09	Turtl3boi	(fn [x] x) <-- returns a new function that returns its argument.
17:09	Turtl3boi	what does that mean
17:09	weavejester	weavejester: So in Clojure, we have atoms and refs for handing state change. We need to be explicit
17:09	gtrak```	,(fn [x] x)
17:09	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval169$fn__170 sandbox$eval169$fn__170@b952ad>
17:09	weavejester	mindbender: But in Python, everything's mutable by default
17:10	lucian	weavejester: except when it isn't
17:10	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, that's the .toString() on the function object
17:10	Turtl3boi	hmm
17:10	lucian	(ints, floats, strings and tuples are immutable)
17:10	weavejester	lucian: Well... okay, the core data structures in Python are all mutable
17:10	gfredericks	Turtl3boi: it means that whatever argument you pass to that function is its return value
17:10	Raynes	It is the identity function.
17:10	Raynes	&(identity 0)
17:10	lazybot	⇒ 0
17:10	Turtl3boi	hahaha ok that's what i thought
17:10	weavejester	lucian: ... except for those :)
17:10	gfredericks	,(let [returns-its-arg (fn [x] x)] (returns-its-arg "HAAAA"))
17:10	clojurebot	"HAAAA"
17:11	Turtl3boi	why did the other guy say it "returns a new function that returns its argument"
17:11	Turtl3boi	why did he say "new function"
17:11	gtrak```	,(source identity)
17:11	clojurebot	Source not found
17:11	gfredericks	Raynes: you just passed the additive identity to the functional identity
17:11	weavejester	lucian: I wouldn't class Python as functional though. Aside from tuples and maybe strings, it doesn't make much effort to avoid mutability.
17:11	TimMc	Turtl3boi: Well, it's a new function, it's not the same object as `identity`.
17:11	Raynes	Turtl3boi: Because it isn't an old function...?
17:11	Turtl3boi	lol k
17:11	Turtl3boi	i'm going too far into it as i usually do
17:12	Turtl3boi	brb
17:12	lucian	weavejester: sure, it makes little effort. i sort of see any language with first-class functions as functional
17:12	TimMc	&(identical? (fn [x] x) (fn [x] x))
17:12	lazybot	⇒ false
17:12	gfredericks	Turtl3boi: "new" functions can be created just as easily as "new" strings
17:12	TimMc	&(let [boring (fn [x] (+ 2 x))] (boring 3)) ;; let's see if lazybot is still broken...
17:12	lazybot	java.lang.NullPointerException
17:12	TimMc	haha
17:12	gfredericks	rather than only being declared at some kind of higher level
17:12	gtrak```	,&(= (fn [x] x) (fn [x] x))
17:12	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: & in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
17:12	Raynes	$reload
17:12	lazybot	Reloaded successfully.
17:12	lucian	weavejester: so in that sense, python has functional concepts (decorators, properties, object creation, comprehensions, immutable iterators, etc)
17:12	TimMc	&(let [boring (fn [x] (+ 2 x))] (boring 3)) ;; let's see if lazybot is still broken...
17:12	lazybot	java.lang.NullPointerException
17:12	gtrak```	,(= (fn [x] x) (fn [x] x))
17:12	clojurebot	false
17:13	Raynes	TimMc: Meh, I'll figure that out later.
17:13	TimMc	Raynes: SANBOX DENIED
17:13	gtrak```	&(= (fn [x] x) (fn [x] x))
17:13	lazybot	⇒ false
17:13	gtrak```	if only :-)
17:13	brehaut	lucian: if you think pythons iterators are immutable, you are sadly mistaken
17:13	weavejester	lucian: Why is object creation functional?
17:13	mindbender	weavejester: a bit of reading up confirms you're right
17:13	bobhope	what's the best way to return multiple values in clojure?
17:13	lucian	brehaut: i meant the original object to be iterated on is not mutated
17:13	gtrak```	bobhope, a vector or a map
17:14	Raynes	&(fn [] [1 2 3])
17:14	lucian	weavejester: because it act like functions (classes are first-class callables)
17:14	lazybot	⇒ #<sandbox28697$eval30931$fn__30932 sandbox28697$eval30931$fn__30932@3e51ed>
17:14	daniel	whats the simplest way of password protecting paths with noir? i have a path like /model/:id and this model may or may not have a password attribute set...if it has a password i want to check for the password or redirect
17:14	daniel	this is my attempt https://gist.github.com/1463038
17:14	daniel	but seems to pass the when-not, even if i dont pass in any password variable
17:14	weavejester	lucian: Oh right. I think functional programming is more about avoiding state change, though.
17:15	weavejester	lucian: At least, that's what wikipedia says ;)
17:15	lucian	weavejester: sure, i guess. but i find the first bit (first-class functions) much more necessary than the latter
17:15	lucian	without the first you're fucked. without the second it's just a little uncomfortable
17:16	weavejester	lucian: Yeah, but that makes for a really broad definition of functional programming
17:16	brehaut	HoFs with pervasive mutability results in higher order imperative code though, not functional code
17:16	gtrak```	it's all imperative on some level
17:16	weavejester	lucian: Usually when people talk about functional programming, it's all about restricting state change.
17:17	amalloy	the definition of functional programming has evolved over time, as more languages adopted what was originally called "functional"
17:17	weavejester	Yeah...
17:18	licenser	nooo
17:19	amalloy	in the very early days, lisp was functional because it had first-class functions
17:19	gtrak```	clojure's mutability default inverts the control, but it's still imperative
17:20	weavejester	Well, there are places where Clojure is imperative...
17:20	Turtl3boi	Gtrak i believe i talked to you along time ago in the java channel
17:20	weavejester	But most of the code I write in Clojure is very functional.
17:20	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, yea
17:20	gtrak```	I think I told you to look at clojure :-D
17:20	Turtl3boi	i guess i don't know what "first-class"means yet though
17:21	Turtl3boi	all these computer science terms are coming back to bite me
17:21	Turtl3boi	because, alas, i was not a comp sci major
17:21	gtrak```	they're not first-class in java, since you can't make one at run-time easily
17:21	Turtl3boi	yeah you did tell me to look at it but i delayed on that
17:21	weavejester	Turtl3boi: It just means you can treat functions the same way you'd treat any other data
17:21	Turtl3boi	ahhh.....i see
17:21	weavejester	Like, they're not second-class citizens, so to speak.
17:21	gtrak```	yea, check it out
17:21	Raynes	Turtl3boi: For the most part, it just means that a function is just a value like anything else. For example, a function and an integer are on the same level in Clojure.
17:22	weavejester	So does this mean Clojure is communist? :)
17:22	gtrak```	((first [(fn [] (+ 1 x)) (fn [] (- x 1))] 5))
17:22	gtrak```	,((first [(fn [] (+ 1 x)) (fn [] (- x 1))] 5))
17:22	Turtl3boi	wow that's pretty nifty....so a function can be modified at run time
17:22	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
17:22	gtrak```	oh oops
17:22	gtrak```	,((first [(fn [x] (+ 1 x)) (fn [x] (- x 1))] 5))
17:22	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$first>
17:22	gtrak```	fail!
17:23	weavejester	Turtl3boi: Well... kinda. It's more that you can create functions at runtime.
17:23	daniel	can anyone help me password protect this? https://gist.github.com/1463136 im not supplying a password but it doesnt redirect
17:23	weavejester	Turtl3boi: Once a function has been created, it's pretty much immutable, but every other data structure in Clojure is too.
17:23	gtrak```	((first [(fn [x] (+ 1 x)) (fn [x] (- x 1))]) 5)
17:23	gtrak```	,((first [(fn [x] (+ 1 x)) (fn [x] (- x 1))]) 5)
17:23	clojurebot	6
17:24	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, that picks the first function in that vector and invokes it with 5 as the arg
17:24	weavejester	daniel: Use if-not instead of when-not
17:24	gtrak```	,((second [(fn [x] (+ 1 x)) (fn [x] (- x 1))]) 5)
17:24	clojurebot	4
17:24	bobhope	Sorry if my question was already answered, but i'm on a laggy train connection and it may have blown by without my getting a chance to see it: is destructuring let the best way to return multiple values?
17:24	TimMc	bobhope: Pretty standard, yeah.
17:24	gtrak```	bobhope, destructuring is for input not output
17:25	daniel	weavejester: still the same problem :(
17:25	TimMc	bobhope: return a vector or map, capture and dissect it in a let
17:25	bobhope	thanks guys :)
17:25	weavejester	daniel: You want something like... (if (password-protected?) (redirect) (show-page))
17:26	weavejester	daniel: right?
17:26	daniel	yeah weavejester
17:26	bobhope	has anyone used relations/facts with core.logic?
17:26	weavejester	daniel: Redirect doesn't have side-effects. You need to return it from your function for it to have an effect.
17:26	daniel	i see
17:26	bobhope	I'm trying to understand how to use them with a typechecking system
17:27	bobhope	should I input the declared types as facts, and see if the relationships can be inferred?
17:27	bobhope	and how could I report errors in the type verification?
17:27	daniel	weavejester: can i force that somehow in its current form?
17:28	daniel	can you issue return statements in clojure? or is it always the last to be eval'ed
17:29	TimMc	daniel: "last to be eval'd" is correct, but misleading
17:30	gtrak```	daniel, all the code is compiled before it's run, to eval something means to read it in, compile it, and run it
17:30	TimMc	daniel: A (do ...) form's value is the value of the last contained form, and let, fn, etc. have an implicit do form around their body.
17:30	weavejester	daniel: https://gist.github.com/1463164
17:30	TimMc	gtrak```: That's nitpicking.
17:30	Turtl3boi	does "immutability" mean the same thing in clojure as it does in java
17:30	gtrak```	,(eval '(inc 1))
17:31	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
17:31	TimMc	Turtl3boi: And in every other language, yep.
17:31	TimMc	gtrak```: The SANBOX has DENIED you!
17:31	bobhope	is there a way to evaluate in a new, empty namespace, or a namespace that you explicitly control?
17:31	gtrak```	hmm, why eval bad?
17:32	daniel	weavejester: thanks, that looks good. lets see if it works
17:32	TimMc	,((resolve (symbol "eval")) `(inc 1))
17:32	clojurebot	2
17:32	gtrak```	ah, i know why, eval must skip the check Raynes put in on his own eval :-)
17:33	TimMc	I don't think clojurebot uses clojail.
17:33	gtrak```	TimMc, wtf
17:33	TimMc	haha
17:33	weavejester	Well, that's Ring 1.0.0 finally released. Now I can start going through all patches for all the other projects :)
17:33	Raynes	gtrak```: If you allow eval, you've allowed everything.
17:33	Raynes	And clojurebot definitely does not use clojail.
17:33	weavejester	Oh, except I probably need to write a mailing list post.
17:34	TimMc	weavejester: Congratulations.
17:35	Turtl3boi	,((first [(fn [x] (+ 1 x)) (fn [x] (- x 1))]) 5)
17:35	clojurebot	6
17:35	Turtl3boi	^what's the point of that gtrak?
17:35	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, shows you that functions are data like anything else
17:35	Turtl3boi	oh right you can have an array of functions
17:35	gtrak```	gets the first thing in the vector, invokes it
17:35	Turtl3boi	oh sorry vector not array
17:36	gtrak```	you could probably do array, too
17:36	Raynes	Good thing you apologized. I was about to call the terminology police.
17:36	Turtl3boi	i'm so used to C++ vector vs array being different
17:36	Raynes	&(into-array [(fn [])])
17:36	lazybot	⇒ #<sandbox6862$eval9045$fn__9046[] [Lsandbox6862$eval9045$fn__9046;@573068>
17:37	gtrak```	wait, is it actually a typed array?
17:37	gtrak```	err, no
17:37	gtrak```	(into-array [(fn [x] (+ 1 x)) (fn [x] (- x 1))])
17:37	gtrak```	,(into-array [(fn [x] (+ 1 x)) (fn [x] (- x 1))])
17:37	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: array element type mismatch>
17:37	gtrak```	,(to-array [(fn [x] (+ 1 x)) (fn [x] (- x 1))])
17:37	clojurebot	#<Object[] [Ljava.lang.Object;@177d7db>
17:38	Turtl3boi	what does the ampersand do?
17:38	gtrak```	that's just telling the bot to run it
17:38	gtrak```	there's two bots in here
17:38	weavejester	TimMc: thanks :)
17:38	Turtl3boi	that's the same as using the comma
17:38	gtrak```	,is lazybot
17:38	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: is in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
17:38	gtrak```	rather, clojurebot
17:38	gtrak```	& is lazybot
17:38	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: is in this context
17:39	Turtl3boi	awesome
17:39	daniel___	weavejester: unfortunately it doesn't work, but i think it must be that fetch-one is returning something other than false or nil
17:40	weavejester	daniel: I guess that means its time to add in some debug code :)
17:40	gtrak```	ah, it is a typed array
17:41	TimMc	gtrak```: It is base don the first arg, I think.
17:41	TimMc	&(doc into-array)
17:41	lazybot	⇒ "([aseq] [type aseq]); Returns an array with components set to the values in aseq. The array's component type is type if provided, or the type of the first value in aseq if present, or Object. All values in aseq must be compatible with the component type. Class obj... https://gist.github.com/1463238
17:41	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, you'll notice that each function is its own class
17:42	TimMc	&(class +)
17:42	lazybot	⇒ clojure.core$_PLUS_
17:42	gtrak```	&(class (fn [] nil))
17:42	lazybot	⇒ sandbox6862$eval9073$fn__9074
17:43	Wild_Cat	interesting. I'd have thought there'd be a single Function class (or at worst, one per arity).
17:43	gtrak```	nopers
17:43	TimMc	Wild_Cat: Each fn (inline or not) becomes a .class file.
17:43	gtrak```	TimMc, Wild_Cat, only on AOT
17:43	TimMc	This is because of the JVM.
17:44	gtrak```	you can load classes from a byte-array object dynamically
17:44	qbg	Is there something special you need to do to get Counterclockwise's REPL to work with Clojure 1.3?
17:44	TimMc	gtrak```: But that's an in-JVM class, even if it isn't a .class file.
17:44	gtrak```	yes
17:44	TimMc	CLOSE ENOUGH o\__/o
17:44	gtrak```	nevar!
17:45	Turtl3boi	so one set of parens around a funcion defines it
17:45	Turtl3boi	two around it actually calls it
17:45	TimMc	Turtl3boi: The parens in (fn [x] x) are a call as well, to fn.
17:45	cgray	where is unquote defined?
17:45	gtrak```	(..) calls the first item in the list
17:45	Wild_Cat	yeah, I should have guessed it was due to a JVM implementation issue.
17:45	gtrak```	with the rest as parameters
17:46	gtrak```	it's all just lists
17:46	TimMc	It's calls all the way down.
17:46	TimMc	&`unquote
17:46	lazybot	⇒ clojure.core/unquote
17:46	TimMc	cgray: ^
17:46	cgray	nope
17:46	cgray	at least not in my clojure.core
17:46	TimMc	Oh, right -- Compiler special.
17:46	cgray	really?
17:46	cgray	too bad
17:47	cgray	,(apply ~'/ '(1 3))
17:47	clojurebot	#<IllegalStateException java.lang.IllegalStateException: Attempting to call unbound fn: #'clojure.core/unquote>
17:47	Turtl3boi	all just lists?
17:47	Turtl3boi	what's a list
17:47	gtrak```	,(class '(1 2 3 4))
17:47	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
17:47	gtrak```	,'(1 2 3 4)
17:47	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
17:47	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, like a linked-list
17:48	TimMc	Turtl3boi: Any (...) form is a list. (+ 2 3) is a list of three elements to the compiler.
17:48	Turtl3boi	oh right basically some array-like datastructure
17:48	Turtl3boi	thanks Tim
17:48	gtrak```	but you have to quote if you want it to not eval the list
17:48	gtrak```	(+ 2 3)
17:48	clojurebot	suffusion of yellow
17:48	gtrak```	,(+ 2 3)
17:48	clojurebot	5
17:48	gtrak```	,'(+ 2 3)
17:48	clojurebot	(+ 2 3)
17:48	TimMc	Turtl3boi: The [x] in (fn [x] x) is a vector (to the compiler).
17:49	Turtl3boi	thanks for the deconstruction TimMc, very helpful
17:49	gtrak```	,(first '(+ 1 2))
17:49	clojurebot	+
17:49	gtrak```	get it?
17:50	Turtl3boi	&(second '(+ 1 2))
17:50	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:50	Turtl3boi	&(fourth '(+ 1 2))
17:50	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: fourth in this context
17:50	Turtl3boi	aiya!
17:50	TimMc	Turtl3boi: The thing is that vector literals [+ 2 3] get reconstructed as vectors, whereas list literals (+ 2 3) are reconstructed as function calls.
17:50	TimMc	&[+ 2 3]
17:50	lazybot	⇒ [#<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@14f6e3f> 2 3]
17:50	daniel___	if should treat false and nil the same right? cant work out why this function isn't working,
17:50	TimMc	&(+ 2 3)
17:51	lazybot	⇒ 5
17:51	qbg	daniel__: As long as the false is the real false value
17:51	daniel___	clojure.core=> (has-access? "daniel" "daniel")
17:51	daniel___	{:_id #<ObjectId 4ee526709a1785d4dbe3f148>, :name "daniel", :password "daniel"}
17:51	daniel___	clojure.core=> (has-access? "daniel" "da")
17:51	daniel___	nil
17:51	Turtl3boi	makes sense since [ ] means an argument list so you wouldn't want it to be a function call
17:51	daniel___	should (if has-access?... work?
17:51	cgray	does unquote only work inside a backtick?
17:52	qbg	cgray: yes
17:52	devn	technomancy: you gotta tell #heroku that they need some sort of representation in #heroku besides a bot that posts the same message over and over.
17:52	TimMc	Turtl3boi: That's not why [ ] is used, though.
17:52	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, that's just sugar, in lisp and scheme they use ( ) for arglists
17:52	qbg	daniel__: You mean (if (has-access? ...) ...)
17:52	cgray	qbg: how can you unquote something outside a backtick then?
17:52	daniel___	yeah cgray
17:52	daniel___	qbg: even
17:52	qbg	cgray: Just don't quote it?
17:52	qbg	cgray: you have an example?
17:52	cgray	qbg: I don't have that option :)
17:53	daniel___	isnt ~ reverse of a '
17:53	cgray	qbg: http://www.4clojure.com/problem/121
17:53	Turtl3boi	Why is [ ] used TimMc
17:53	cgray	qbg: I can't figure out how to apply '/
17:53	gtrak```	it improves readability
17:54	TimMc	Turtl3boi: [ ] as a syntax form is used to represent bindings of some sort -- such as in let or fn. It's visually distinct from ( ) and has the additional (sort of) connotation of a fixed-length collection.
17:54	TimMc	That last bit is debatable.
17:54	TimMc	Basically, it's just convention to do it that way.
17:55	qbg	cgray: Take a look at resolve
17:55	qbg	cgray: Or ns-resolve
17:56	TimMc	cgray: clojure.lang.LispReader defines unquote, I think...
17:56	TimMc	cgray: #isUnquote ... return form instanceof ISeq && Util.equals(RT.first(form),UNQUOTE);
17:56	TimMc	All hardcoded.
17:57	cgray	qbg: thanks, ns-resolve worked
17:57	daniel___	hmm seems i needed to restart the noir server
17:58	cgray	qbg: but ns-resolve trips the 4clojure alarm :(
17:58	qbg	cgray: The problem says you only need to support the 4 basic math operations
17:58	Turtl3boi	it's a binding? eh?
17:59	qbg	cgray: You could just use case to dispatch on the symbol
17:59	Turtl3boi	so "let [a 2]" means a = 2
17:59	cgray	qbg: true, but I wanted to do it the "right" way :)
17:59	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, ya
17:59	qbg	cgray: I think the point of the problem is to implement a simple eval
17:59	cgray	qbg: that's what I'm doing
17:59	qbg	cgray: So that would be the right way :p
17:59	Turtl3boi	what if i said "let [a 2 2]" does that means " a = 2 = 2"
18:00	gtrak```	it means you break clojure :-)
18:00	weavejester	Turtl3boi: Nope
18:00	TimMc	Turtl3boi: Try it, you'll get a complaint about a wrong number of elements.
18:00	qbg	Turtl3boi: That is invalid
18:00	Turtl3boi	then how do i bind 3 items
18:00	gtrak```	,(let [a 1 b 2 c 3] [a b c])
18:00	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
18:00	qbg	Turtl3boi: You need an even number of elements
18:00	TimMc	Turtl3boi: and add commas to taste.
18:00	weavejester	It's a [key1 value1 key2 value2 ... keyN valueN] deal
18:00	gtrak```	normally, i'd line them up vertically, since i'd have more than one line
18:01	Turtl3boi	&(let '[a 1, b 2])
18:01	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: let requires a vector for its binding
18:01	Turtl3boi	&(let [a 1, b 2])
18:01	lazybot	⇒ nil
18:01	gtrak```	,(class '[1 2])
18:01	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
18:01	TimMc	Now put something in the body of the let for it to evaluate.
18:01	gtrak```	huh?
18:01	Scriptor	Turtl3boi: you can use commas in there to make it more readable, (let [a 1, b 2, c 3]), commas don't have any syntactic significance otherwise
18:01	alexbaranosky	~turtleboy
18:01	Turtl3boi	&(let [a 1, b 2] [a b ])
18:01	clojurebot	Excuse me?
18:01	lazybot	⇒ [1 2]
18:01	qbg	cgray: For this language, those ops are the special forms, so dispatching on them is the way to go
18:02	Turtl3boi	yes alex?
18:02	alexbaranosky	just playing with clojurebot :)
18:02	alexbaranosky	sorry to interrupt
18:02	Turtl3boi	lol you guys make programmign so fun
18:02	TimMc	yay!
18:02	gtrak```	,(let '[a 1])
18:02	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: let requires a vector for its binding>
18:02	gfredericks	$inc us
18:02	lazybot	⇒ 2
18:03	gtrak```	why does that break? ^^
18:03	TimMc	gtrak```: (quote [a 1])
18:03	qbg	let is a macro
18:03	TimMc	let's see...
18:03	gtrak```	TimMc, well yea :-)
18:03	gtrak```	why does that break it?
18:03	TimMc	&`(let '[broken stuff])
18:03	qbg	(let (quote [a 1])) is invalid for it
18:03	Turtl3boi	still hazy on the "closure" concept
18:03	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/let (quote [clojure.core/broken clojure.core/stuff]))
18:03	TimMc	gtrak```: let looks at the first arg, finds a list instead of vector, SHIT GOES DOWN
18:04	gtrak```	ahhh
18:04	gtrak```	too much magic
18:04	qbg	Turtl3boi: A closure is a function that isn't at the top level in terms of lexical scope
18:04	alexbaranosky	TimMc, finds a symbol no?
18:04	weavejester	Turtl3boi: Do you know Python?
18:05	qbg	(fn [x] (fn [y] (+ x y)))
18:05	alexbaranosky	&(list? '[a 1])
18:05	lazybot	⇒ false
18:05	qbg	The inner function is a closure
18:05	alexbaranosky	&(symbol? '[a 1])
18:05	lazybot	⇒ false
18:05	qbg	and has access to x
18:05	brehaut	qbg: thats not really true
18:05	gtrak```	,`'(+ 1)
18:05	Turtl3boi	so it's a function within a function
18:05	clojurebot	(quote (clojure.core/+ 1))
18:05	Scriptor	Turtl3boi: before you take on closures, understand lexical score first
18:05	Turtl3boi	k
18:05	Scriptor	*scope
18:05	TimMc	(╯°□°）╯︵ lɐʌǝ)
18:05	weavejester	Turtl3boi: It's basically a function that can access variables from outside.
18:06	gtrak```	,`(list '(+ 1))
18:06	clojurebot	(clojure.core/list (quote (clojure.core/+ 1)))
18:06	gtrak```	,(list '(+ 1))
18:06	clojurebot	((+ 1))
18:06	alexbaranosky	&(vector? '[a 1])
18:06	lazybot	⇒ true
18:06	TimMc	alexbaranosky: It's a cons, really
18:06	weavejester	So... (let [x 1] (fn [y] (+ x y)))
18:06	alexbaranosky	vector!
18:06	gtrak```	,(apply list '(+ 1))
18:06	clojurebot	(+ 1)
18:06	weavejester	Is the same as: (fn [y] (+ 1 y))
18:06	alexbaranosky	ok enough lazybot for one day
18:06	TimMc	alexbaranosky: That's not what the compiler sees!
18:06	TimMc	alexbaranosky: You have to check (first `'[a 1]), with the syntax quote.
18:07	weavejester	The anonymous function can access "x" defined outside.
18:07	TimMc	&(seq? `'[a 1])
18:07	lazybot	⇒ true
18:07	qbg	&(vector? ''[a 1])
18:07	lazybot	⇒ false
18:07	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, it's like running an anonymous inner class that uses a value in local scope after the function has terminated
18:08	Turtl3boi	i know a tiny bit of python weavejester kun
18:08	weavejester	Turtl3boi: Okay, so in Python it would be like...
18:08	TimMc	In Python this would require newlines, I think.
18:08	weavejester	Yeah, I was going to copy-paste :)
18:09	gtrak```	"A closure retains a reference to the environment at the time it was created (for example, to the current value of a local variable in the enclosing scope)"
18:09	Scriptor	...it's pretty intuitive once you understand how lexical scope works
18:09	weavejester	def add(x):
18:09	weavejester	def add_x(y):
18:09	weavejester	return x + y
18:09	weavejester	return add_x
18:10	TimMc	(Note: Multi-line copy-paste was performed by a professional. Do not attempt this at home.)
18:10	weavejester	So if I wrote add(1), this would return a function that added 1 to things
18:10	weavejester	TimMc: Haha :)
18:10	weavejester	The key point is that the inner "add_x" function remembers the value of x
18:10	weavejester	That might seem obvious
18:11	gfredericks	but you can't do it in java
18:11	weavejester	yeah
18:11	gtrak```	sure you can, why not?
18:11	TimMc	It's just ugly as hell.
18:11	weavejester	Well, not 100% anyway
18:11	alexbaranosky	can't is not the same as is ugly
18:11	TimMc	Add a Box<T> class and you're good.
18:11	weavejester	I think Java has some restrictions. Like in Java, "x" would have to be final.
18:11	qbg	Or use a one element array
18:11	alexbaranosky	just create an anonymous class factory :)
18:12	qbg	weavejester: Same as clojure
18:12	TimMc	alexbaranosky: Like... an AbstractSingletonProxyFactoryBean?
18:12	qbg	The variables become a hidden field
18:12	weavejester	qbg: True :) - but Clojure is kinda built around immutability.
18:12	qbg	So that is why they need to be final
18:12	TimMc	A great example of closures is a let that binds an atom or ref and then returns some functions that have that ref in scope. The let is gone, but the closures retain a shared reference to that "box".
18:12	gtrak```	TimMc, is the joke that those modifiers have no associativity?
18:13	TimMc	gtrak```: The joke is that there is no joke. http://static.springsource.org/spring/docs/2.5.x/api/org/springframework/aop/framework/AbstractSingletonProxyFactoryBean.html
18:13	alexbaranosky	nice
18:13	gtrak```	Abstract(SingletonProxy)(FactoryBean)? or (AbstractSingleton)(ProxyFactory)Bean?
18:14	qbg	I think the first
18:14	TimMc	gtrak```: Like all dadaist art, it is up for the viewer to decide.
18:14	lucian	gtrak```: i've actually seen those
18:14	TimMc	gtrak```: The real gold is the description: "Convenient proxy factory bean superclass for proxy factory beans that create only singletons."
18:15	TimMc	convenient
18:15	gtrak```	lol
18:15	qbg	Well, it does define some stuff for you
18:15	gtrak```	i think spring is way more complex than clojure
18:15	qbg	It makes Java better though
18:16	TimMc	qbg: As far as I can tell, Spring just makes it harder to follow the code path.
18:16	gtrak```	qbg, the line blurs once they start adding spel to the xml :-) at some point it just becomes a language
18:16	Turtl3boi	gtrak do you still do java or not?
18:16	gtrak```	yea
18:16	qbg	That is why you go for the anotations
18:17	qbg	Avoid most of the xml
18:17	gtrak```	qbg, right, that's when they realize what they've done :-)
18:17	TimMc	gtrak```: "spel"... please don't tell me that's "Spring Expression Language"...
18:17	gtrak```	TimMc, yup
18:18	TimMc	That's terrible.
18:18	TimMc	and I hope to never see it.
18:18	qbg	Avoid AOP I guess
18:18	gtrak```	it's just funny
18:19	Turtl3boi	so gtrak do you do heavily multi threaded programming now with clojure
18:19	gtrak```	<property name="randomNumber" value="#{ T(java.lang.Math).random() * 100.0 }"/>
18:19	alexbaranosky	TimMc, what languages do you use predominantly at work?
18:19	qbg	<property name="randomNumber" value="4"/>
18:19	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, not so much, I'm mostly stuck on java right now
18:20	TimMc	alexbaranosky: Java. Trying to wedge in some Clojure.
18:20	qbg	Spring MVC isn't so bad though
18:20	qbg	Except for the V and the C :)
18:21	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, if you recall, last time we talked I told you how scared i was of multi-threading :-), I still haven't started studying that stuff
18:21	TimMc	BeanFactoryTransactionAttributeSourceAdvisor -- this library is so far up its own ass...
18:21	Turtl3boi	rofl.....
18:21	alexbaranosky	TimMc, we do mostly Java then Scala then ruby for scripting
18:21	qbg	Check out Spring 3
18:22	gtrak```	but I'm working on backend rdf graph management code right now
18:22	lucian	alexbaranosky: that seems to me at least one language too many :)
18:23	alexbaranosky	lucian, don't forget the javascript then
18:23	gtrak```	TimMc, that's what you get when you try to mix code and data badly, though I kinda like the approach for ui's like with mxml
18:23	TimMc	and HTML and CSS -- not to be trifled with
18:23	Scriptor	alexbaranosky: how do you split what's done in java and what's in scala?
18:23	Turtl3boi	im supposed to know what rdf graphs are lol
18:23	TimMc	Turtl3boi: Haha, I'm trying to learn that stuff at work right now!
18:23	lucian	Turtl3boi: is that a reference to you rnick?
18:23	TimMc	SPARQL and all that.
18:23	alexbaranosky	lucian, to be fair the Ruby stuff isn't production code, just scripts, perhaps for performance testing etc
18:23	gtrak```	I don't really know what they are yet and I've been writing the code for a few months :-)
18:24	gtrak```	TimMc, what are you doing with that stuff?
18:24	TimMc	alexbaranosky: Yeah, Python occupies that niche where I work.
18:24	Turtl3boi	reference to my nick? nani?
18:24	lucian	alexbaranosky: i guess i just dislike scala a lot. i would use java + jruby or something
18:24	alexbaranosky	Scriptor, we do new modules in Scala, and write additions to old modules in Java ...... mainly that is the method we use to choose
18:24	TimMc	Turtl3boi: "TURTLE" is an RDF format.
18:25	TimMc	"terse triple"
18:25	Turtl3boi	hahaha computer sci is so hard
18:25	alexbaranosky	lucian, what do you dislike about Scala, specifically?
18:26	lucian	alexbaranosky: syntax and type system
18:26	alexbaranosky	I'm a clojure guy, but given the option between Java and Scala I can't think of any time I'd choose Java
18:26	lucian	alexbaranosky: but if jruby were added to that list, i'd choose that
18:26	lucian	even though i don't really know ruby that well
18:26	alexbaranosky	Scala's type system is much better than JAva's
18:26	TimMc	Hey, wow! I actually need to optimize something! :-D
18:26	lucian	sure, but it's worse than almost everything else
18:26	gtrak```	alexbaranosky, I guess i could probably figure out scala in a few weeks, but I don't see the point
18:27	alexbaranosky	but that makes it more complex of course
18:27	lucian	it's not as clean as haskells and it's not as simple as clojure/python's
18:27	lucian	and the syntax just makes my eyes bleed
18:27	gtrak```	qbg, yea
18:27	alexbaranosky	yeah to each his own, but if you like Java over Scala, I'm sorry but we can't be friends :D
18:28	lucian	heh
18:28	lucian	no, i don't
18:28	gtrak```	i'd say i like java over scala for familiarity reasons
18:28	alexbaranosky	to me it's a practical thing... I'm taking what options I have
18:28	lucian	but if i were in your position, i'd keep java for old code and use clojure/jruby/jython for new code
18:29	lucian	alexbaranosky: sure, i know it's not always an option
18:29	lucian	i'm not criticising you for writing it. i'm just saying if i had the choice, i'd do differently
18:29	lucian	and i was thinking if ruby is already in the door, jruby might be an easy sell
18:29	gtrak```	qbg, dependency injection is the new spaghetti code
18:29	alexbaranosky	Mayyyyybe, except I'd rather be selling Clojure
18:30	alexbaranosky	and also Ruby is really only used by a small number of us for scripting stuff
18:30	lucian	i see
18:30	TimMc	I think we tried using Python embedded inside a Java project and it failed miserably.
18:31	qbg	gtrak```: Yeah, don't try to test the result
18:31	gtrak```	jython's dead
18:31	lucian	a little, yes
18:31	TimMc	Not jython -- embedding a Python VM.
18:31	TimMc	something like that
18:31	alexbaranosky	are ny of you looking for Clojure positions? (sorry can't help, just curious)
18:32	lucian	TimMc: oh. that does sound failure-y
18:32	Turtl3boi	is it possible to get a programming job without being super pro
18:32	alexbaranosky	yes
18:32	Turtl3boi	like, being a EE major instead of CS
18:32	TimMc	Turtl3boi: Absolutely.
18:32	lucian	alexbaranosky: i'm looking for a new job and i like clojure
18:33	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, most important thing about being a programmer is knowing the ins and outs of programming
18:33	Turtl3boi	i only took the data structures class in C/C++, but i didn't take compilers and all those other hard ass CS courses
18:33	TimMc	Turtl3boi: All those CS courses may or may not help you, depending on the profs.
18:33	lucian	Turtl3boi: don't worry much. the vast majority of graduates can't write fizzbuzz
18:33	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, learn that ish on your own
18:33	TimMc	but the stuff they should be teaching you is really important.
18:34	Scriptor	there's also computer engineering, get a mix of both cs and ee
18:34	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, I can give you a thirty book reading list - it'll make you better read than 99% of candidates
18:35	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, by that mean you would know important stuff
18:35	Scriptor	alexbaranosky: make that list ofr all of us!
18:35	qbg	Turtl3boi: It isn't hard to get to thedailywtf level, and somehow those people have jobs...
18:35	Turtl3boi	the only thing i've done is embedded programming on a 8051
18:36	Turtl3boi	and i wasn't the lead programmer. i was the bench testing guy who would test out how well the code works in the chip, and give feedback
18:36	Turtl3boi	so in other words i didn't have a programming job
18:36	alexbaranosky	qbg, thing is if you want to get into the business, but don't have credentials (like the wtf programmers do have) then it's best to know what you are doing really well
18:37	Turtl3boi	i really want to apply to google
18:37	Turtl3boi	i'm scared i will get smoked in the interview though
18:38	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, my approach is to come well prepared - if you do that, then you have nothing to be scared of ---- if you aren't well-prepared, you're just relying on luck to sneak into a job
18:39	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, Google, MS, those guys are willing to waste a lot of money on interviewing too many people, and aren't afraid of turning away good guys
18:39	alexbaranosky	Scriptor, seriously? If you want just contact me on github or something and I'll send a list
18:40	Scriptor	alexbaranosky: same username on github?
18:40	Turtl3boi	yeah, right, i need to become a solid programmer and now's my chance
18:40	Turtl3boi	i think i get OOP now
18:40	Turtl3boi	but that's not going to be enough
18:40	Turtl3boi	i need more experience in new ideas
18:41	gtrak```	these things take time
18:41	TimMc	Turtl3boi: What you need is exposure to idioms and thought patterns. Knowing syntax isn't enough.
18:42	TimMc	Speaking of which, has anyone here read this? http://www.aosabook.org/en/index.html
18:42	TimMc	"The Architecture of Open Source Applications"
18:43	alexbaranosky	getting a job takes multiple factors: programming skill, good community presence, good resume, good interview skills, networking
18:44	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, concepts trump syntax
18:46	Turtl3boi	i have zero community presence lol
18:46	Turtl3boi	jesus
18:46	Turtl3boi	that's probably what i need to work on
18:47	gtrak```	fundamentals
18:47	technomancy	devn: I know; it's so embarrassing =\
18:49	TimMc	(for anyone else who was confused, that was re: #heroku)
18:49	alexbaranosky	figured
18:49	Turtl3boi	it's funny how google has jobs right up my alley (hardware design), didn't expect that (not that i want those jobs)
18:50	alexbaranosky	TimMc, that open source book looks interesting
18:53	TimMc	I've been poking through it, it's kinda interesting.
18:53	TimMc	All high-level stuff.
18:54	Turtl3boi	do you think i could have a "community presence" simply by making some stupid image processing java or clojure app and putting in a website to sell it
18:55	gtrak```	only if people give a shit :-)
18:55	alexbaranosky	I meant more like activity in the open source community or whatever
18:55	alexbaranosky	the jobs I've worked at would consider that a good thing for a potential junior develoepr hire
18:56	alexbaranosky	of course it also depends on what kinds of jobs you are targeting
18:56	alexbaranosky	I'd hone my resume and persona towards the specific place of business I most want to work at
18:56	alexbaranosky	darnit: see now I'm giving out my secrets ;)
18:56	Turtl3boi	hahaha
18:57	alexbaranosky	it is good to know what kind of work people need done, and make sure you're good at that.
18:57	Turtl3boi	lol google is such a pain because they have so many different personas working there
18:57	alexbaranosky	know what kind of person they look for too, and then do your best to achieve that
18:57	Turtl3boi	i just want to work for a company that is not gonna go belly up in 6 years from now
18:58	alexbaranosky	six years? That's like an eternity
18:58	Turtl3boi	yeah well i figure google is one of the few companies
18:58	gtrak```	if you can get a job at google, you can get a job at lots of places
18:59	alexbaranosky	what is your thought-process that led you to wanting to work somewhere that won't be belly up in 6 years? Curious to hear
18:59	alexbaranosky	gtrak```, definately
19:00	qbg	Turtl3boi: You could get a job a place that doesn't produce software for external use
19:01	TimMc	qbg: What's your thought process on that?
19:02	Turtl3boi	well alex, my first company i had a bad experience. i worked really hard for 5 years and at the end of 5 years i had seen 9 layoffs and 2 years straight of no raises. i barely made more than i had started off at
19:02	qbg	Software business can be volatile. Other industries need software and can be less volatile
19:03	Turtl3boi	this was a hardware company
19:03	qbg	Downsides to that though
19:03	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, it might depend on what region of the US you're in too... I'm in Boston, where there are lots of options for SW
19:04	Turtl3boi	i don't mind living in boston but i would prefer california only because my family is there
19:04	Turtl3boi	i have family both in so and norcal
19:04	alexbaranosky	San Francisco has lots of SW jobs too right?
19:04	Turtl3boi	yes but then it also is very competitive
19:05	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, there's really no way to escape the need to be awesome
19:05	alexbaranosky	at least a little awesome
19:05	alexbaranosky	life is competitive, you know?
19:06	Turtl3boi	the only thing i'm awesome in is probably like writing documentation
19:06	Turtl3boi	lol
19:07	gtrak```	if your documentation is coherent, then your code might be too
19:07	Turtl3boi	i did analog and RF test, i was pretty slick at that
19:07	Turtl3boi	but then, i'm trying to convert to more programming-ish....yeah good point gtrak
19:07	Turtl3boi	i can write great code gtrak, but then again i also take forever to do it
19:08	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, well, if you're writing the same code over and over you're doing something wrong
19:09	gtrak```	writing it the second time takes me about 1/10th the time as the first
19:09	Turtl3boi	alright gtrak, how do i make an app in clojure
19:09	gtrak```	start with leiningen
19:09	Turtl3boi	like an app with a frontend GUI
19:10	Turtl3boi	you know how java uses Swing right? does CLojure use that too
19:10	gtrak```	ah, there's a couple projects out there, you can write straight-up swing if you like or use another layer
19:10	Turtl3boi	k
19:10	alexbaranosky	leiningen with seesaw for gui programming or maybe noir for a webapp
19:10	gtrak```	clojure has java interop
19:10	Scriptor	Turtl3boi: clojure can make use of swing, but otherwise it has its own web frameworks
19:10	gtrak```	i've been meaning to take a look at seesaw myself
19:10	alexbaranosky	I personally wouldn't do swing straight
19:13	Turtl3boi	so clojure is more for web apps
19:13	gtrak```	i wouldn't say that..
19:14	gtrak```	but java on the desktop is classically not so good
19:14	Turtl3boi	it is for making a stupid little image processing demo GUI
19:15	ssideris	hello
19:15	gtrak```	well that will be fine
19:15	Turtl3boi	i just want to try out some of the multi threaded feature of clojure
19:15	Turtl3boi	and image processing is perfect for that
19:15	ssideris	what's the best way to check the clojure version at runtime?
19:15	Turtl3boi	well a lot of image processing algorithms do better when you multi thread them i would say
19:15	gtrak```	,clojure-version
19:15	clojurebot	{:major 1, :minor 3, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
19:16	ssideris	gtrak```: thanks
19:17	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, so, what clojure's really good at is dealing with lazy-sequences
19:18	gtrak```	i don't think it's the best for implementing a low-level image-proc algorithm, but it'd be great for gluing together filters, for instance
19:18	Turtl3boi	you mean they consume and return sequences incrementally
19:19	gtrak```	yea
19:19	gtrak```	delayed computation
19:19	gtrak```	for example:
19:19	gtrak```	,(map (fn [x] (+ 1 x)) [ 1 2 3 4 5])
19:19	clojurebot	(2 3 4 5 6)
19:19	gtrak```	,(class (map (fn [x] (+ 1 x)) [ 1 2 3 4 5]))
19:19	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazySeq
19:20	gtrak```	give me a sec
19:21	gtrak```	lol, how do I turn it into a vec :-)
19:21	alexbaranosky	(doc vector)
19:21	clojurebot	"([] [a] [a b] [a b c] [a b c d] ...); Creates a new vector containing the args."
19:22	gtrak```	,(doall (map (fn [x] (+ 1 x)) [ 1 2 3 4 5]))
19:22	clojurebot	(2 3 4 5 6)
19:22	gtrak```	,(class (doall (map (fn [x] (+ 1 x)) [ 1 2 3 4 5])))
19:22	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazySeq
19:22	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, well, the point is, map doesn't actually compute the value until you ask for the first element of the lazy seq :-)
19:22	gtrak```	i'm just not demonstrating it :-)
19:23	alexbaranosky	,(class (vec (doall (map inc [ 1 2 3 4 5])))
19:23	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
19:23	alexbaranosky	,(class (vec (doall (map inc [1 2 3 4 5]) )))
19:23	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
19:24	gtrak```	,(vec (map (fn [x] (+ 1 x)) [ 1 2 3 4 5])))
19:24	clojurebot	[2 3 4 5 6]
19:24	Turtl3boi	well never hurts to try
19:24	Turtl3boi	maybe i should just do a web app in clojure
19:24	gtrak```	point is, you can keep gluing stuff on for free
19:25	gfredericks	(second (concat (range) (range) (range) (range)))
19:25	gfredericks	,(second (concat (range) (range) (range) (range)))
19:26	clojurebot	1
19:26	gfredericks	^ concatenating four infinite sequences
19:26	gtrak```	haha
19:26	gtrak```	,(range)
19:26	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
19:26	gtrak```	&(range)
19:26	lazybot	java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
19:26	gtrak```	hehe :-)
19:26	Turtl3boi	this actually seems great for image processing
19:27	Turtl3boi	but it's not going to be as fast as C or Java
19:27	qbg	You can use clojure as the glue between java components
19:27	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, well, depends on the algorithm, right? if you're doing a lot of mutable state, clojure's not right for that
19:28	Turtl3boi	mutable state.....image processing probably does better in a purely functional world
19:28	Turtl3boi	nix that last sentence
19:28	Turtl3boi	uhh what am i trying to say
19:29	Turtl3boi	oh actually i can see what you're saying
19:29	Turtl3boi	what's mutable state lol
19:30	gtrak```	haha
19:30	mbac	i made this with clojure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZGCnDSC4Rc
19:30	mbac	source available if anyone's interested
19:30	mbac	;)
19:30	gtrak```	overtone?
19:30	mbac	no just scraping memegenerator really
19:31	mbac	people here helped with it today so i thought i'd offer it up if anyone cared
19:31	blakesmith	Speaking of lazy sequences... Will this actually walk the sequence once or twice?
19:31	blakesmith	&(map inc (filter #(= 0 (mod % 2)) (range 10)))
19:31	lazybot	⇒ (1 3 5 7 9)
19:31	gtrak```	once
19:31	weavejester	Once
19:31	blakesmith	Awesome.
19:31	blakesmith	I dig it.
19:32	blakesmith	I got worried doing too much chaining. ;-)
19:32	gtrak```	it can take it
19:32	gtrak```	if you can dish it out
19:32	Turtl3boi	what is mbac talking about
19:32	weavejester	filter and map are both lazy, so they don't do anything until you start iterating
19:32	qbg	And the results are cached
19:33	ben_m	Wow, that's pretty cool.
19:34	blakesmith	Are lazy sequences a common feature of most Lisps?
19:34	qbg	No
19:34	blakesmith	Seems like you'd pay some big performance penalties otherwise...
19:34	ben_m	Most lisps are more multi paradigm
19:34	qbg	How so?
19:35	qbg	Memory consumption would be the most obvious one
19:35	gtrak```	blakesmith, think of lazy seqs as just a way to describe and compose computations
19:35	gtrak```	stream processing
19:36	blakesmith	Ah, I see.
19:36	Turtl3boi	is leiningen for linux only?
19:36	gtrak```	nope
19:36	ben_m	No :)
19:37	blakesmith	qbg: I was thinking higher level functions like map and filter that would walk a sequence multiple times when chained together.
19:37	gtrak```	they won't
19:37	qbg	Nope
19:37	qbg	In CL you get a new list
19:38	qbg	So that doesn't happen even there
20:01	Turtl3boi	gtrak if you take me under your wing you won't be disappointed
20:02	Turtl3boi	i promise it will be the best investment you ever made
20:09	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, ha, can I buy stake in your future earnings?
20:09	Turtl3boi	if you help me land a job of course i'll kick you back some
20:09	Turtl3boi	we can set it up as one time payment or % of paycheck
20:11	gtrak```	nah, that seems too weird :-)
20:11	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, not too weird for me though :)
20:12	gtrak```	alexbaranosky can barely handle his emacs though
20:12	Turtl3boi	lol
20:12	alexbaranosky	emacs does not a programmer make
20:12	alexbaranosky	still not sold on it
20:12	alexbaranosky	:P
20:12	gtrak```	indeed :-)
20:12	gtrak```	alex, remember me from conj? i think we hung out a couple of times
20:13	alexbaranosky	yes! definitely
20:13	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, there aren't any shortcuts really, but i'm always willing to learn new stuff to help people out
20:14	Turtl3boi	you guys hung out?
20:14	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, I'm a big believer in reading great books and lots of practice
20:14	Turtl3boi	i read a lot actually
20:14	Turtl3boi	but i don't have any study partners
20:14	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, yea, at the last clojure conference
20:14	Turtl3boi	i wish i could do a project with someone decent
20:15	gtrak```	(un)fortunately, my job takes a lot out of me :-)
20:15	gtrak```	but the next thing I really want to look at is logic programming
20:16	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, you could work on some open source project
20:16	alexbaranosky	another great way to learn is to work with really smart people... best if in real life, but open source could be good too
20:18	Turtl3boi	can i work w/ you alex
20:18	Turtl3boi	gtrak what logical programming? like hardware description languages
20:19	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, I'd be inclined to say sure
20:19	Turtl3boi	however......
20:19	Turtl3boi	but......
20:19	Turtl3boi	unfortunately.....
20:19	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, no, like prolog
20:19	Turtl3boi	this is what i hear from women when i ask them out
20:19	Turtl3boi	ahh ok
20:19	ben_m	Where do you meet women that know Prolog?
20:19	ben_m	:P
20:20	alexbaranosky	ha
20:20	gtrak```	where do you meet women that can tolerate a conversation about prolog? :-)
20:20	alexbaranosky	MIT!!!
20:20	ben_m	?- like(prolog, women)
20:20	ben_m	no.
20:20	gtrak```	damn, that was fast
20:20	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, in all seriousness, I love helping people, but one thing I hate is people who don't try
20:21	brehaut	ben_m: to start with you ask it like knows_prolog(X), sex(X, female), current_location(X, Y).
20:21	alexbaranosky	so ben_m are you saying something about women and logic???
20:21	lazybot	alexbaranosky: How could that be wrong?
20:21	ben_m	alexbaranosky, I would never!
20:22	Turtl3boi	alexbaranosky i try super hard at everything i do
20:22	ben_m	brehaut: awesome(X) :- likes_prolog(X), sex(X, female). ? :)
20:23	ben_m	actually
20:23	ben_m	Everyone who likes Prolog is pretty awesome.
20:23	ben_m	and/or crazy
20:24	brehaut	its been a while since i wrote prolog, but i didnt think you had to created a predicate for a query?
20:24	Turtl3boi	does prolog help for control systems
20:24	Turtl3boi	ie, programming feedback for a microcontroller system
20:24	ben_m	You don't have to and that's not necessarily a query
20:30	alexbaranosky	Turtl3boi, you should probably send me an email telling me more about yourself, what you know, and what you want to know/achieve andw e could go from there alexander dot baranosky at gmail dot com
20:30	Turtl3boi	wow thanks now i have you and gtrak both
20:30	Turtl3boi	on my mailing list
20:30	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, always open to questions or talks, I'm just overcommitted
20:31	Turtl3boi	i understand
20:31	Turtl3boi	you probably also have a gf ,etc
20:31	Turtl3boi	haha
20:31	gtrak```	nobody's perfect :-)
20:33	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, but the clojure community's full of smart guys, i recommend getting involved, even if you don't end up writing clojure, you'll learn a lot
20:34	Turtl3boi	do you guys belong to a forum of clojure?
20:34	Turtl3boi	if so let me sign up
20:34	gtrak```	there's a mailing list, yea
20:35	gtrak```	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure
20:36	gtrak```	and the dev list is fun to watch but it's not for regular clojure users
20:39	Turtl3boi	damnit i might have to put my real identity out in cyberspace to grow my programming presence
20:39	gtrak```	just get over it
20:39	gtrak```	especially if you're a programmer
20:40	alexbaranosky	employers will google you
20:40	gtrak```	you can use it to your advantage
20:41	duck1123	if you're gonna show up in a google search, make sure it's for good things
20:41	Turtl3boi	k
20:41	alexbaranosky	gtrak```, exactly
20:41	Turtl3boi	maybe i should start a google+ and facebook too
20:41	duck1123	and drive that guy in california with the same name as you that was in a golf tournament and a high school play
20:42	duck1123	off the net
20:44	alexbaranosky	yeah, it depends how unique your name is I guess
20:44	alexbaranosky	there's only one other version of me I've ever run into
20:50	Turtl3boi	nice
20:50	Turtl3boi	you must be russian
20:50	Turtl3boi	err polish
20:55	Turtl3boi	i wonder if it's too late for me to convert to programming
20:55	Turtl3boi	i just turned 30 :/
20:55	gtrak```	nah
20:56	gtrak```	it just might take longer than you think
20:57	Turtl3boi	yea worth a try tho
20:57	Turtl3boi	i still feel like i'm 22 even tho i'm 30
20:59	pdk	CLOJURE REVERSES THE CLOCK
21:00	Turtl3boi	hahaha
21:00	gtrak```	clojure separates time and values
21:00	pdk	really if you can get used to putting yourself in the mindset appropriate for whatever programming paradigm you pick you'll be able to do stuff
21:00	gtrak```	if you have a good grasp of fundamentals, you will see everything is all the same under the covers
21:01	Turtl3boi	i have a weak understanding of low level stuff though
21:01	Turtl3boi	like computer architecture
21:01	Turtl3boi	x86 assembly
21:01	Turtl3boi	crap like that
21:01	gtrak```	I had a good comp arch class
21:02	gtrak```	well, my point is, programming really hasn't changed that much, what's changed are the relative tradeoffs
21:02	Turtl3boi	k
21:02	Turtl3boi	i'll trust you on that one
21:02	Turtl3boi	i am gonna go buy that clojure book at Fry's electronics now
21:02	Turtl3boi	before they close
21:03	Turtl3boi	later
21:03	gtrak```	cya
21:12	pdk	yo which book did your arch class use
21:36	alexbaranosky	whoa, is github down?
21:37	nickmbai`	hmm down for me
21:42	erewhon	scheduled maintenance
22:00	technomancy	oooh, ring 1.0.0. very nice.
22:00	brehaut	oh, its out?
22:01	brehaut	fantastic
22:03	pdk	look at that version number
22:03	pdk	two perfect circles
22:03	pdk	so fitting for ring
22:10	devn	parsing stuff is fun
22:11	devn	anyone here use parsatron? I'm surprised there's no sep-by or next-not or something, but maybe I'm missing something obvious
22:16	mbac	how do i do the equivalent of popen("zcat foo.gz") ?
22:20	bobhope	Is there a recommended way to do dataflow programming with clojure?
22:26	technomancy	bobhope: no, the dataflow contrib library is unmaintained
22:40	gtrak```	Turtl3boi, did you get it?
22:46	devn	technomancy: that project was looking for a maintainer though right?
22:47	devn	d'oh he left
22:47	technomancy	devn: welllllll... maybe. when I talked to the author he basically implied that it should be rewritten with protocols
22:47	devn	i was going to encourage bobhope to look into it and consider taking it up as his own project
22:47	devn	also, even if it's in old contrib that doesn't mean it's gone forever
22:48	devn	he could still use old contrib.
22:52	alexbaranosky	anyone planning to go to Clojure/West? I want to submit some kind of TDD-ish presentation; mostly I'm scared out of my mind to do a talk though :)
22:54	Scriptor	alexbaranosky: I'm not, but presenting is fun anyways, go for it!
22:54	alexbaranosky	Scriptor, I am going to go for it!
22:57	Scriptor	I'd like to see something about combining TDD with bottom-up programming
22:58	Scriptor	I guess you write the tests for the "bottom" parts first
22:59	Scriptor	ooh, free hotel and airfare
23:04	Raynes	Anybody here have an Ubuntu 11.10 machine with leiningen handy that can run some tests for me?
23:04	gtrak```	i've got a vm
23:04	gtrak```	with kubuntu
23:04	Raynes	That should be fine. git clone git://github.com/Raynes/fs.git
23:06	Raynes	alexbaranosky: Is reporting a couple of tests failing on his 11.10 machine, but I can't reproduce on OS X Lion or Ubuntu 10.04.
23:06	gtrak```	gimme a sec
23:07	gtrak```	someone else is welcome to beat me to it
23:07	Raynes	I'm in no hurry. Don't worry about it if it's a hassle.
23:08	technomancy	Raynes: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1)
23:08	technomancy	is what I get
23:09	Raynes	technomancy: I don't even use clojure.set anywhere in the library.
23:09	Raynes	And that is certainly not what he was getting. :\|
23:10	Raynes	I'm thinking that Ubuntu 11.10 is just broken in general. Like IE 6, only newer.
23:10	Raynes	;)
23:11	alexbaranosky	Raynes, need me for anything?
23:11	Raynes	alexbaranosky: Yeah. I need you to fix your computer.
23:11	Raynes	In all seriousness, no. Just trying to find someone else with the problem right now.
23:11	alexbaranosky	bah dump dump
23:11	Raynes	I'll email you if I need anything else.
23:12	alexbaranosky	cool
23:15	gtrak```	Raynes, works for me
23:15	Raynes	gtrak```: And that's 11.04?
23:15	gtrak```	wait, actually it says 0 tests
23:15	Raynes	Its supposed to.
23:15	Raynes	It's*
23:15	gtrak```	that's on 11.10
23:16	Raynes	'lein test' doesn't summarize midje tests, but it does run them, so if there were no failure messages, it worked.
23:16	Raynes	gtrak```: Thanks alot.
23:16	gtrak```	Raynes, I also use sun jdk
23:16	Raynes	So do I. That could very well be a thing.
23:16	amalloy	that's what cake test ouutputs for me, on 10.04, fwiw
23:16	Raynes	amalloy: It's probably running the tests.
23:17	amalloy	openjdk
23:17	Raynes	Anybody else on OpenJDK that can test it?
23:17	Raynes	Wait, we use OpenJDK on our VPS, don't we amalloy?
23:17	amalloy	yes
23:17	Raynes	So surely that isn't an issue.
23:18	mbac	what's the best way to collect the contents of a file into a buffer if you can only load it into 1k byte buffer at a time?
23:18	mbac	that is, my .read function returns 1k but the file is 50-100MB
23:20	alexbaranosky	Raynes, I use sun jdk
23:20	Raynes	I think your computer is broken, bro.
23:20	Raynes	I'll get some more people to test it later. I know a guy who can run it past the last 5-6 Ubuntu versions.
23:21	Raynes	gtrak```: Thanks a lot for the help.
23:21	gtrak```	yea, np
23:21	devn	is github back up?
23:21	alexbaranosky	devn yeah
23:22	devn	alexbaranosky: btw, what ever came of the heredoc macro discussion?
23:23	devn	alexbaranosky: I found myself in a situation tonight where we wanted to play around with a parser and we just wanted a quick and dirty way to write some short example haml blocks to test out our parser.
23:23	alexbaranosky	devn, it's on the back burner - when I get the time and inclination I may do a little statistical analysis of percentage of escape characters used like we talked about
23:24	devn	I remember being sort of iffy about the whole idea, but I found it a bit annoying to have to (apply str (rest "
23:25	devn	%here.is my-heredoc
23:25	devn	%which is indent-sensitive
23:25	devn	in order to have a clear view of the number of spaces, structure of the text, etc.
23:26	alexbaranosky	devn exactly: when you want it, you REALLY wish you had it
23:26	alexbaranosky	heredocs alla carte ;)
23:28	alexbaranosky	devn I don't consider the topic dead, I just have been waiting for either more peoplew ho care, or more data
23:39	duck1123	The thing that turns me off of heredocs in clojure is all the times I've viewed a sql file that was all messed up because emacs couldn't highlight it correctly. I like that that vary rarely happens in clojure
23:39	alexbaranosky	why should Clojure be held back by the tools?
23:40	duck1123	simple to parse is different than held back by tools
23:40	alexbaranosky	I mean... if there's a use case for them, then the tools should have to catch up with the language -- it should be driven by need for the feature, is all I'm saying
23:41	alexbaranosky	duck1123, so would you be against triple-quotes? Or some kind of quote that was a bit easier to parse than heredocs?
23:41	duck1123	alhough, I've yet to find the need for them. If it's complex enough, I'll just store it somewhere else
23:42	duck1123	triple quotes seem preferable to heredocs, but still feel icky
23:45	amalloy	"my language hates it when i use strings, so here come six tick-marks to say i really mean it..."
23:45	alexbaranosky	amalloy, where do you stand on the super-string issue?
23:46	amalloy	eh
23:46	alexbaranosky	I mostly hate escaping, so anything that keeps me from needing to escape I prefer... and to me putting test data in files isn't a solution I would use ever
23:47	alexbaranosky	because I feel tests are more readable with the data in front of me
23:47	alexbaranosky	(there are times I'd put it in files, I just wouldn't want to be forced to )
23:55	technomancy	Raynes: oh, "lein test" completed just fine for me
23:55	technomancy	it was lein midje that failed
23:55	fhd	Is there an article somewhere about the performance tweaks of Clojure? (I mean stuff like that conj doesn't copy the complete memory of a vector but only the added parts)
23:55	fhd	I once saw a talk about some of these things but I'd like to know some more
23:57	amalloy	$google higher order persistent hash tree
23:57	lazybot	[Understanding Clojure's PersistentHashMap ... - Higher-Order] http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/09/08/understanding-clojures-persistenthashmap-deftwice/
23:58	fhd	amalloy: Brilliant, thanks :)
23:58	amalloy	fhd: fwiw, if you ever try implementing a persistent data structure in a functional language, a lot of the structural-sharing will just fall into place accidentally