#clojure – 2011-12-13

2011-12-13

00:09	amalloy	one way that lisp makes it easy to think about your problem is exactly the "notorious" parens. there are no special-cases for special syntax built into the language (eg, java's for loop). instead, everything is just (operator arg arg arg). this means that when you add new domain-oriented constructs, they look exactly like the built-ins you're used to reading and writing. at that point the language can "get out of your way" and you only have
00:20	Turtl3boi	huh?
00:21	Turtl3boi	java's for loop has special syntax?
00:21	companion_cube	yes, for iterators
00:22	amalloy	java's for loop is special syntax. for (x = 1; x < 10; x++) {...}
00:22	amalloy	can you add a similar construct to the language yourself? no; all you can do is write methods and classes
00:23	Turtl3boi	Ahh i see
00:23	Turtl3boi	well i don't get exactly what you're saying, not until i go see a lisp in action
00:24	amalloy	whereas in lisp, suppose you're writing a card-game player. you can easily define something called each-card such that you can write (each-card [rank suit] (...do something with rank and suit...)) - now it looks like each-card is a language built-in
00:50	Turtl3boi	damn i should've gotten some experience in a Lisp sooner
00:50	Turtl3boi	but i do suppose Matlab is like that to an extent
03:07	replaca	does anyone with a deeper understanding than I have know why clojure.reflect doesn't seem to work on classes created with deftype?
03:08	replaca	is it a class loader problem?
03:22	replaca	ahh yes (if anyone cares), you need to specify :reflector (clojure.reflect.JavaReflector. (cloj\
03:22	replaca	ure.lang.DynamicClassLoader.))
03:23	replaca	(that \ was an articat of cutting and pating from a terminal
03:23	replaca	*pasting
03:42	AWizzArd	Moin
03:43	AWizzArd	replaca: what would you like to reflect about?
03:51	replaca	AWizzArd: I'm extended autodoc to understand protocols, types and records
03:51	replaca	*extending
03:52	replaca	but now I need to go to sleep :)
05:58	lnostdal	it's really not possible to "subclass" (i guess sub-deftype, or something) a class defined using deftype? .. i have to copy/paste the body to the new deftype and add protocols to it? .. hmm
05:58	lnostdal	perhaps i'm looking for extend
05:59	lnostdal	..or something
06:25	bsteuber	lnostdal: yes extend seems the way to go
06:26	bsteuber	if that's too low-level for you feel free to build some macros on top of that
07:59	rads	when you compile clojurescript with advanced optimizations, what exactly gets included with your application code? a clojurescript runtime? google closure?
08:08	Fossi	i'd guess both, if you use them
08:08	Fossi	the closure compiler only pulls in the parts you use though
08:09	thearthur	not sure how much of the runtime makes it into the final either?
08:11	rads	it seems like a lot of javascript to include if I wanted to use both clojurescript and jquery
08:12	rads	34kb for clojurescript runtime and 31kb for jquery before any application code. is that too much?
08:12	Fossi	depends
08:12	Fossi	also: who needs jquery anyway? :>
08:13	Borkdude	Has anyone read "Test Driven Development By Example" and has it near him/her?
08:13	rads	Fossi: what do you recommend instead? closure's dom stuff?
08:13	raek	in theory, only the parts of the clojurescript standard library you use should be included, right?
08:14	rads	34kb seems to be the minimum from my tests
08:14	Fossi	i'd always use closure instead of jquery these days
08:14	rads	how come?
08:14	raek	rads: JQuery cannot be compiled in the advanced mode, so the compiler cannot use remove the parts of JQuery you don't use
08:14	Fossi	it just feels better and has the saner design
08:15	Fossi	also most jquery plugins are a mess
08:15	lucian	Fossi: have you used it from js?
08:15	Fossi	even the ui stuff is not really nice (weird hidden config options if you extend for example)
08:15	rads	maybe I'll take a look at closure then. I just wanted to use jquery because it's a lot more popular and I'm more familiar with it
08:16	Fossi	it's different
08:16	Fossi	but i like it better
08:18	raek	but because you can hot-link JQuery from google, it's also very likely that the browser alread has it cached
08:19	lucian	raek: for some cases, that's not an option (phonegap)
08:19	kephale	what graph libraries are folks using?
08:19	cemerick	Does hiccup not provide a way to get a "standard" clojure.xml-style representation given a hiccup-style representation?
08:20	Borkdude	Never mind, I just had to read a bit further.
10:04	jeremyheiler2	Anybody see this? http://blog.8thlight.com/uncle-bob/2011/12/11/The-Barbarians-are-at-the-Gates.html
10:06	samaaron	jeremyheiler2: yep, i read it the other day
10:14	jeremyheiler2	samaaron: Now I am interested in how someone would properly scale Clojure across 1024 CPUs.
10:15	raek	it would be interesting if clojure would run on a platform that performs automatic parallelization
10:16	raek	clojure make concurrency easy excellently, but not parallelism
10:17	jeremyheiler2	raek: maybe with an event-loop similar to node.js?
10:19	raek	jeremyheiler2: one event queue but with one event processing loop per CPU?
10:22	jeremyheiler2	raek: yeah; something like that. essentially allow the CPUs to greedily steal work from whatever processes are running.
10:24	gtrak``	jeremyheiler2, ever heard of amdahl's law?
10:25	raek	for purely functional code, the language runtime could even do that for expression evaluation
10:25	raek	which I think some SML and Haskell implementations does
10:26	gtrak``	are the 1024 cpus NUMA?
10:26	lucian	gtrak``: amdahl's law doesn't entirely apply to event loops, since they already do work in small increments
10:27	gtrak``	i think the limit for cache-coherency is like 128 cores
10:27	lucian	so you'd "just" need a distributed event loop
10:27	gtrak``	well, the real issue with that many cores is memory
10:28	TimMc	gtrak``: Yay persistent data structures.
10:29	gtrak``	TimMc, well, :-)... that might not be all you need. Think of unified memory as requiring a lot of protocol overhead. Message passing becomes more natural than shared memory at some point
10:30	gtrak``	the message passing to sync up state is there whether you want it to be or not, but maybe you can have more control if you do it yourself, that's what I'm trying to say
10:32	gtrak``	so, if avout ends up being a good idea, you could apply a similar model for inter-core state
10:33	gtrak``	but having it transparently might not work as well
10:38	gtrak``	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Uniform_Memory_Access
10:39	gtrak``	it even has the pic :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AmdahlsLaw.svg
10:41	gtrak``	95% parallizable asymptotes at 20x, clojure helps us to get there more effectively, but there's still a limit
10:42	jeremyheiler2	gtrak``: interesting stuff.
10:42	gtrak``	it's why i'm interested in clojure in the first place :-)
10:46	gtrak``	jeremyheiler2, speaking of event loops, you read the LMAX article?
10:46	jeremyheiler2	gtrak``: i have not
10:47	gtrak``	http://martinfowler.com/articles/lmax.html
10:47	gtrak``	totally badass
10:47	gtrak``	i think the insight here is they took control of the transaction model and made different assumptions than a RDBMS would
10:49	jeremyheiler2	nice, i think i gonna get a coffee and read through this
11:05	pjstadig	not every algorithm can be parallelized
11:05	pjstadig	and even if it can there are limits
11:05	pjstadig	...aaaand this is something that has been well researched
11:06	pjstadig	yet another thing that we'll benefit from that was solved in the 70's and 80's
11:16	pjstadig	hmm...NUMA...didn't some guy do a youtube video about that? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmtzQCSh6xk :)
11:21	gtrak``	pjstadig, numa numa yay.. he must have been talking about computer architecture
11:25	otremblay	Hi, this is probably not the right place to ask this, but I'm setting up emacs with clojure, and I wondered when I pressed C-x C-e where did my println output go?
11:34	gtrak``	otremblay, probably the swank repl buffer?
11:34	gtrak``	slime repl, i mean
11:35	otremblay	I'm going to try again
11:35	gtrak``	do you have the repl buffer open?
11:36	otremblay	In about 5 seconds I will
11:36	gtrak``	it looks like it's just C-x e, not C-x C-e
11:36	otremblay	Oh
11:36	gtrak``	ah wait, that's a thing, too, nevermind
11:36	gtrak``	C-x C-e evaluate the expression behind the cursor
11:36	otremblay	When I do C-x e, it doesn't do anything, no kbd macro defined
11:37	otremblay	I get a message in my Message buffer when I do C-x C-e
11:37	otremblay	in my slime-repl clojure buffer, not a thing
11:37	gtrak``	ah
11:38	otremblay	The command goes through in my code buffer, I get "#'clojure-loc.core/clojure-loc" in my message buffer, but nothing anywhere else.
11:38	otremblay	No error, no nothing
11:39	gtrak``	is there a println in the code itself?
11:41	otremblay	The code I execute is just (println "lol")
11:42	otremblay	I honestly can't explain why I used an acronym for the expression of laughter, but I can't see it printed nowhere. No lols for me.
11:42	gtrak``	despair is when you println but there is no println
11:44	gtrak``	otremblay, it shows up for me in the slime repl buffer
11:45	otremblay	Configuration is wrong then. Oh, the indignity.
11:45	otremblay	Wait
11:46	otremblay	Oh, no, false hope. It "showed up" right after my slime version number.
11:46	gtrak``	otremblay, make sure you've got clojure-mode on
11:46	gtrak``	otremblay, that's right
11:46	otremblay	How do I do that?
11:46	gtrak``	try it again, and it'll be under that
11:46	otremblay	No, it doesn't work.
11:46	gtrak``	yes it does
11:47	gtrak``	you just said it 'showed up' right after your slime version number
11:47	otremblay	It does when I load slime.
11:47	otremblay	I have this in my .emacs
11:47	otremblay	(add-to-list 'load-path "~/opt/clojure-mode")
11:47	otremblay	(require 'clojure-mode)
11:48	gtrak``	ah
11:48	gtrak``	you can always load clojure-mode manually with M-x clojure-mode
11:50	otremblay	When I compile the code using C-c C-k it shows up in my repl window under the version number
11:51	gtrak``	yea, compiling the namespace runs the init for the namespace, which will run that line
11:51	gtrak``	rather, compile and run are kind of the same thing, though C-c C-k does more
11:52	otremblay	I don't understand why it doesn't throw it in my repl when I C-x C-e
12:04	otremblay	I think I'll make do with C-c C-k until I'm at least two orders of magnitude more proficient in the use of emacs.
12:10	gfredericks	anybody know if I can turn an aleph channel into an input stream or something?
12:14	duck1123	gfredericks: is this a ChannelBuffer?
12:14	gfredericks	or synchronously slurp a channel...
12:14	gfredericks	duck1123: no, it's not
12:14	gfredericks	duck1123: this is an http server which is receiving a req with a streaming body
12:15	gfredericks	I'm trying to forward the request, so any manner of getting the channel to feed into my synchronous call to clj-http would be acceptable
12:16	gfredericks	I should probably try using aleph client stuff instead of clj-http, but now is not a good time for refactoring...
12:16	duck1123	ok, look in aleph.formats, there's a ton of useful fns there
12:16	gfredericks	k
12:17	gfredericks	holy crap look at all that
12:17	duck1123	Unfortunately, many of them are private on 0.2.0, but that changed in the clj-1.3 branch
12:19	duck1123	of course, if this is a normal lamina channel, you'll probably want to look at pipelines. (I'm still not very good with pipelines)
12:19	gfredericks	hrm....
12:19	gtrak``	nothing in clojure is really private
12:20	gfredericks	gtrak``: yes but it indicates the intentions of the author
12:20	gfredericks	duck1123: the format functions seem to be only useful after I already have the content
12:21	tomoj	bytes->input-stream ?
12:21	gfredericks	don't have bytes, just have channel
12:21	duck1123	where is this channel coming from?
12:21	gfredericks	bytes are preferable to input-stream actually
12:22	tomoj	map* it?
12:22	gfredericks	aleph wiki says: Streamed requests will have a channel as their body. To check for this, see if (channel? body) returns true.
12:22	tomoj	hmm
12:22	tomoj	that would be odd
12:22	gfredericks	by which I mean bytes are easier atm, not simpler :)
12:22	gfredericks	This present moment is all about easy.
12:23	duck1123	and you're trying to take that channel and send it over http somewhere else, right?
12:23	gfredericks	yeah, using clj-http
12:23	gfredericks	atm clj-http is expecting a byte-array, which is the only reason that's preferable
12:24	gfredericks	obviously a stream is better performance
12:24	gfredericks	tomoj: does map* not return a new channel?
12:25	tomoj	yeah, it does, but each message will be an input stream. don't think that's what you want..
12:25	duck1123	gfredericks: then you can take that channel and get a lazy seq
12:26	gfredericks	duck1123: yeah? (seq ch)?
12:27	duck1123	lazy-channel-seq
12:27	duck1123	gfredericks: must read: https://github.com/ztellman/lamina/wiki/Channels
12:28	gfredericks	duck1123: I must!
12:36	dnolen	if anyone is interested in hacking on a CLJS debugger, I've started sketching things out here https://github.com/swannodette/cljs-debug
12:41	samaaron	dnolen: just looking at it now
12:41	samaaron	very exciting
12:42	dnolen	samaaron: hardly anything there yet :) but hopefully I can get someone else excited enough to help out.
12:42	samaaron	:-)
12:43	samaaron	i've not used cljs beyond following basic tutorials atm
12:43	dnolen	samaaron: the WRDP (webkit remote debugging protocol) really makes it trivial to build a robust debugger.
12:43	samaaron	but i do have a large project which i'm intending to use it for
12:44	dnolen	samaaron: setting breakpoints in the JS and instrumenting top level forms will be simple - the real challenge will be around getting a sensible sexpr level debugging behavior.
12:45	samaaron	what's the impedance mismatch between JS and CLJS?
12:45	samaaron	within the context of the dubugger
12:45	dnolen	samaaron: in CLJS you have macros - how we debug those? do we debug the macroexpanding source?
12:46	dnolen	samaaron: simple CLJS sexprs map to multiple JS statements, how map multiple JS steps to a simple CLJS one?
12:46	dnolen	stuff like that
12:47	dnolen	ideally it would be very robust for user. you only deal w/ stepping through sexprs
12:47	samaaron	cool
12:47	dnolen	you can ask to macroexpand an expression and step through macroexpanded source.
12:47	samaaron	i guess that's always the issue with a hosted language
12:48	dnolen	samaaron: yeah, I'm optimistic though, we have a very easy to use analyzer
12:48	samaaron	you have to be able to interprete errors/operations in the host and understand how they correlate to operations in the hosted language
12:48	dnolen	samaaron: yup.
12:50	technomancy	anyone want to take a look at http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-879 and possibly +1 it?
12:52	samaaron	technomancy: what's the lein way of overriding jar deps with local projects in folders?
12:52	samaaron	can I do it without using symlinks or changing my project.clj?
12:52	technomancy	samaaron: it's called checkout dependencies; I think it's covered in the readme or tutorial
12:53	technomancy	typically symlinks are used, but there's no reason you couldn't place the original directory right in the checkouts/ dir
12:53	samaaron	oh
12:53	samaaron	i don't want to do either of those really
12:53	samaaron	with cake i could just add projects to my classpath in a config file
12:53	technomancy	why not?
12:54	samaaron	because i'd have to teach my .gitignore about my checkout deps
12:54	samaaron	whereas with cake i just teach .gitignore globally about .cake dirs
12:54	TimMc	just the checkouts dir
12:54	technomancy	yeah, it's just a single line in gitignore
12:54	samaaron	oh ok, so i have a checkouts dir, but then i have to put symlinks in that?
12:54	technomancy	right
12:55	technomancy	it should already be in the gitignore of a fresh project
12:55	samaaron	sure, but that sounds like more effort than the cake approach
12:55	TimMc	...
12:56	technomancy	if it sounds like a nontrivial amount of effort you may be misunderstanding =)
12:56	samaaron	actually i might just be being unecessarily frictionful
12:56	samaaron	:-)
12:56	solussd	how do I require the clojure.math library in my source file?
12:56	samaaron	so if i created a checkouts dir, woudl lein just pick it up automatically and favour that over any jar in the lib dir?
12:57	technomancy	samaaron: it reads the project.clj file from each dir in checkouts/ and places the :source-path and :resources-path on the classpath ahead of all jars
12:57	samaaron	oh, but i don't want to edit the project.clj with dev stuff
12:58	samaaron	because i check that into a repo that everyone else including non-dev people use
12:58	TimMc	samaaron: No editing involved.
12:58	samaaron	oh sorry, i misunderstood
12:58	technomancy	sure if there's no :source-path etc, it will use the defaults
13:00	samaaron	technomancy: so if i placed the source of a subproject in my checkouts dir of a parent project, it would take precidence over the jar of the same project in the lib directory of the parent project without having to add :source-path and :resources-path statements to any project.clj file?
13:01	technomancy	right
13:01	samaaron	perfect
13:01	technomancy	I should look into revamping the checkout deps docs; people always get confused over them.
13:02	technomancy	though it's usually from people who think that adding checkout deps means they should drop it from project.clj.
13:02	samaaron	ah, sure
13:02	samaaron	i guess people don't know which would take priority
13:02	samaaron	so drop it from project.clj to make sure
13:03	TimMc	technomancy: What happens when they do that?
13:03	technomancy	TimMc: it works for them, but not for anyone else
13:03	TimMc	Nice.
13:03	samaaron	:-)
13:03	technomancy	samaaron: aha, so clarifying the precedence should help in that case.
13:03	samaaron	technomancy: definitely
13:04	TimMc	technomancy: Is there any way to tell someone is doing that? Like checking the group.artifact?
13:04	TimMc	s/\./\//
13:04	technomancy	TimMc: hmm... yeah, issuing a warning would be possible I suppose
13:05	TimMc	`lein lint` :-)
13:05	technomancy	I'd rather make it clearer in the docs, but maybe misunderstanding is inevitable
13:05	technomancy	yeah
13:06	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/commit/26be8a23fee3eef865ebe956c3ce1d6353172c03
13:36	samaaron	dnolen: is WRDP supported in Chrome?
13:40	dnolen	samaaron: I've only got it to work in the Chromium builds
13:40	samaaron	perhaps it might work with Safari?
13:40	dnolen	samaaron: I'm planning on creating exact instructions soon on how to play w/ the repo
13:41	samaaron	or at least the Webkit nightlies?
13:41	dnolen	samaaron: yes it should, but I haven't figured out how to get it to work yet.
13:41	samaaron	:-)
13:41	samaaron	why not? it's not like you do much with your spare time...
13:42	samaaron	;-)
13:42	dnolen	heh
13:42	samaaron	to be honest i'm flabberghasted by the amount of stuff you hack on
13:42	samaaron	it's extraordinary
13:42	samaaron	you could probably hack up overtone in a few weekends :-)
13:43	dnolen	samaaron: ha! no way, overtone is like 3 years of work :)
13:44	samaaron	did you see that someone used overtone to make a simple sequencer in their first night of hacking?
13:44	dnolen	no but that's great, it's really cool to see it taking off.
13:45	samaaron	and someone else sequenced Prokofiev's Troika with full bell synthesis in one gist: https://gist.github.com/1467356/886db6ce94fc393877629620659f3af81739ac1b
13:45	samaaron	insanely cool
13:49	dnolen	wow
13:50	samaaron	stuff like that totally makes my day
13:51	samaaron	right, home time :-)
14:00	seancorfield	quick emacs Q: I want to this Pig mode https://github.com/motus/pig-mode/blob/master/pig-mode.el but I'm not sure where to put the file - what's "site-list"?
14:01	seancorfield	s/want to/want to add/
14:01	technomancy	seancorfield: try M-x package-install-file first; if that doesn't work you'll need a manual install
14:02	seancorfield	pig isn't on the package list (hence that question :)
14:04	seancorfield	misread that... site-lisp... is there a standard place i'll find that? somewhere inside ~/.emacs.d ?
14:06	technomancy	it just means put it on your load-path somewhere
14:06	technomancy	~/.emacs.d is fine
14:06	clojurebot	In Ordnung
14:06	technomancy	...
14:07	Bronsa	lol
14:07	technomancy	clojurebot: forget /.emacs.d \|is\| fine
14:07	clojurebot	I forgot that /.emacs.d is fine
14:16	ljos	I was just wondering, what is the rational for having the doc-string before the arg-list in a function declaration and not after? I think it looks tidier with it after, but there might be a good explenation for why?
14:17	arohner	ljos: because if you have a fn with multiple arities, where should the docstring go?
14:17	arohner	(defn foo "a doc string" ([x] (+ x 2)) ([x y] (+ x y))
14:18	Bronsa	why not?
14:18	Bronsa	oh
14:18	Bronsa	that's right
14:20	ljos	That looks like a good explenation, but the two are distinct. In the event of multiple arities it should be before, but when the arity is 1 it should be after. It looks cleaner imo.
14:20	ljos	Though I see that that might cause confusion.
14:21	technomancy	better to be consistent
14:26	ljos	I agree with that usually, but in this case I just think it makes it less readable when you have arity 1, and in my experience most functions have arity of 1. What I could imagine though is the possibility to choose where to put the meta-data yourself by using the tag in the outmost body. Like this: (defn foo [x] ^:doc "A doc string" (+ x x))
14:31	tmciver	cleanliness is in the eye of the beholder. Consistency is cleaner to me.
14:35	technomancy	http://neptune.cocollage.com/people/jmeowmeow/items/6252/
14:35	technomancy	just saw that come up on the screen at the coffee shop I'm at.
14:35	technomancy	looks like midje has a new logo?
14:37	ljos	What I mean by consistent and cleaner is that when I the docstring after the arg-list I just have to look at the first line to know how to access the function, but with the other I will not know if I have to look at the first or the second. But I agree it is more consistent; and consistancy is usually better.
14:38	duck1123	personally, I prefer my arg lists to almost always be on their own line. (with the exception of very short fns)
14:40	ljos	Either way it is still cleaner. In my case you will always know that it is the next argument in the defn that is the arg list, but not so in how it is now since there might be a docstring or not.
14:41	duck1123	but if you have multiple arities, then the next element is a list, so it's not that easy already
14:42	duck1123	(defn foo "calculate foo" ([] 0) ([x] x))
14:43	ljos	That is true, but with multiple arities you already have the problem with finding the arg-list.
14:44	amalloy	since we're on the topic of defns, am i the only one who thinks it's crazy that defn (a) allows attr-map at all, and (b) allows it before-or-after the docstring? does this feature predate an easy way to attach reader metadata?
14:45	technomancy	I'm guessing yes on the latter.
14:47	hiredman	technomancy: I don't think it does
14:51	TimMc	amalloy: Why is it crazy to allow attr-map? (You mean (defn foo ^{:foo :bar} [x] x), right?)
14:51	amalloy	TimMc: no, i mean (defn foo {:foo :bar} [x] )
14:51	amalloy	hiredman: maybe it predates the implicit copying of symbol-name meta onto the var meta?
14:52	TimMc	Oh, I see -- no caret, of course.
14:52	amalloy	it just seems so weird to me that you would add this feature if it were already possible&easy with metadata
14:53	TimMc	And apparently the attr-map can go after the body too.
14:53	amalloy	no way, really?
14:54	TimMc	yep, in the explicit-arities verison
14:54	amalloy	i know you can have per-arity attr-maps, but those are after the arglist, not the body
14:54	TimMc	&(doc defn)
14:54	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([name doc-string? attr-map? [params] body] [name doc-string? attr-map? ([params] body) + attr-map?]); Same as (def name (fn [params* ] exprs)) or (def name (fn ([params ] exprs*)+)) with any doc-string or attrs added to the var metadata"
14:55	TimMc	The second form allows (defn foo ([x] x) {:foo :bar}) -- just tested it.
14:56	amalloy	gratuitous inconsistency!
14:56	TimMc	Where does it allow it before the docstring?
14:56	amalloy	TimMc: am i wrong? i thought it did
14:56	TimMc	I tried adding 3 attr-maps and it didn't work.
14:57	amalloy	apparently i'm wrong. fair enough
14:57	TimMc	Still pretty weird.
14:57	amalloy	TimMc: you could squeeze in ~23 attr-maps in a multi-arity function :P
14:58	TimMc	I don't see how to add attr-maps per-arity.
14:58	amalloy	man am i wrong about this too? i thought the point was to have different preconditions for different arglists
14:59	TimMc	Good point.
14:59	amalloy	ah, yes
14:59	amalloy	http://clojure.org/special_forms#fn
15:01	ambrosebs	I brought up the attr map after the body with rhickey, he was saying he thought it would be nice if you had a ton of metadata so it didn't dominate the start of the fn. But it's a little known and unused feature
15:01	technomancy	in 1.7.8: "git diff learned --function-context option to show the whole function as context that was affected by a change" <- I wonder if this is extensible or just assumes an ALGOL-like.
15:01	Raynes	ambrosebs: Your logic tutorial thing is directed at people with no prior experience with logic programming, right?
15:02	ambrosebs	Raynes: yes, I tried
15:02	TimMc	(defn foo "doc" {:a 2} ([x] {:b 4} x) {:c 3}) <- but :b never makes it into (meta #'foo), of course
15:02	Raynes	ambrosebs: Then thank you and I'll read it later. I'm tired of not having any clue what the big deal is.
15:02	`fogus	TimMc: It wouldn't. That's a pre/post map
15:03	Turtl3boi	what is the definition of "meta data"
15:03	TimMc	Can it contain arbitrary keys/values?
15:03	Raynes	`fogus: I've decided to call our little marginalia console app 'marg'. Is that appropriate?
15:04	Raynes	`fogus: I figured the command would be 'marg', so naming the project itself that made sense.
15:04	ambrosebs	Raynes: also check out the Lojic series on clojure.org by stuartsierra
15:05	`fogus	TimMc: The pre/post map? Yes, it's a regular map. The :pre/:post keys are privileged, the rest go bai
15:05	TimMc	aha
15:05	`fogus	Raynes: Marg++
15:05	Raynes	I did. It was fun, but a little too brief and I didn't really get the "oh, so that's the point" feeling from it.
15:05	Raynes	More posts will probably fix that.
15:05	arohner	Turtl3boi: metadata is extra data you can attach to a value that doesn't change its value
15:06	Turtl3boi	is this something for the compiler usually
15:06	TimMc	In practice, yes.
15:06	TimMc	You attach metadata to the lists and vectors and maps that make up your code's structure.
15:06	ambrosebs	Raynes: that's the trick. It's hard to convince people this stuff is useful without first doing the hard yards
15:07	gfredericks	Turtl3boi: ##(= [1 2 3] (with-meta [1 2 3] {:foo "bar"}))
15:07	lazybot	⇒ true
15:08	Turtl3boi	what is that? like a #define?
15:08	Raynes	ambrosebs: I think the problem is that when you're so passionate about a certain technology, it can become difficult to explain why it is so great to other people. I sometimes get a "why don't they just get it naturally!" feeling sometimes.
15:08	gfredericks	Turtl3boi: no ## is what lazybot uses for inline eval
15:09	Turtl3boi	so what's going on there? are you attaching metadata to [1 2 3]
15:09	gfredericks	Turtl3boi: so I was just getting it to evaluate (= [1 2 3] (with-meta [1 2 3] {:foo "bar"}))
15:09	gfredericks	yep
15:09	Turtl3boi	what's the metadata in this case? the {:foo "bar"} ?
15:09	gfredericks	yep
15:09	gfredericks	,((juxt meta first) (with-meta [1 2 3] {:foo "bar"}))
15:09	Turtl3boi	now tell me WHY you would want to do that in this case
15:09	clojurebot	[{:foo "bar"} 1]
15:10	TimMc	,(instance? clojure.lang.IMeta [1 2 3])
15:10	clojurebot	true
15:10	gfredericks	Turtl3boi: no reason :) I was just demonstrating that it doesn't change the value
15:10	ambrosebs	Raynes: I'm usually lost for words when people ask. I wrote that tutorial while I was learning logic programming, so I'd hope I covered the common misunderstandings
15:11	arohner	Turtl3boi: metadata is used for a lot of fun things. docstrings are metadata, the debug information about file and line number are metadata
15:11	arohner	and it's left open so users can discover new uses for it
15:11	Raynes	ambrosebs: It should be great. As long as there are no more than 2 uses of the word 'cheeky' in it. Are all aussies attached so attached to that word? :P
15:11	ambrosebs	:D
15:11	Raynes	Minus one attached. Donating that one to charity.
15:12	TimMc	either one?
15:12	TimMc	I guess it makes sense either way.
15:13	amalloy	TimMc: Raynes tries to write fault-tolerant IRC messages
15:14	Raynes	Fault tolerance! Speaking of that, Tentacles has that now. Doesn't throw exceptions every time Github flips you off anymore.
15:14	Raynes	And oauth2 support, given arohner.
15:14	Raynes	<3
15:14	`fogus	Raynes: Thanks for taking marg BTW.
15:15	`fogus	s/taking/tackling/
15:15	Raynes	If people don't start writing tentacles crap soon, I might just explode.
15:15	Raynes	`fogus: I'm taking it to the bank.
15:15	ambrosebs	chaching
15:16	Raynes	`fogus: Without needing to copy run-marginalia, it's like a 6 line application. I'm just lazy. Should have had it done by now.
15:17	daniel	https://gist.github.com/1473695 can anyone see why im getting this error?
15:20	ambrosebs	this will probably interest a few here (if you know haskell, think protocol=typeclass) https://github.com/frenchy64/typed-clojure/blob/813e8c0e0b7b1beec522bbc70e90034111a8b674/src/typed_clojure/test.clj#L11
15:20	brehaut	whoa
15:20	`fogus	Raynes: Understood. 6 lines of code. 635 lines of marg docs!
15:21	brehaut	ambrosebs: is all that working‽
15:21	ambrosebs	experimenting with syntax of course, but I have got a very simple type checker working
15:21	ambrosebs	no
15:22	TimMc	daniel: Where is that error originating?
15:22	dnolen	ambrosebs: nice
15:22	pjstadig	`fogus: i ran into a bug in unk yesterday
15:23	pjstadig	at least i think it's a bug
15:23	daniel	TimMc: when i try to open /:id/login in my browser, seems to originate from the (defpartial login line
15:23	pjstadig	not sure how to handle it mid transition to contrib
15:23	daniel	I have another partial which is giving me a different error: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: notepad$lock - (class clojure.lang.ArityException)
15:23	daniel	(defpartial lock [{:keys [id password]}]
15:24	daniel	(2 args) is what it should be
15:25	`fogus	pjstadig: A ticket at http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CMEMOIZE would be great
15:26	brehaut	what is this clojurescript analyzer that typed-clojure's readme mentions?
15:26	TimMc	daniel: Well, login expects a map, but (login id) is probably not passing it one.
15:26	nickmbailey	is there an idiomatic way to take a map of properties and convert it to 'setProp' calls on a java option for interop?
15:27	ambrosebs	https://github.com/frenchy64/typed-clojure/blob/874ab3f5ab62a15f0cafa1006f8c5b3c00eec7d1/src/clojure_analyzer/compiler.clj
15:27	ambrosebs	I've converted the CLJS compiler (analyzer portion) to work on CLojure code
15:27	ambrosebs	example usage: https://github.com/frenchy64/typed-clojure/blob/874ab3f5ab62a15f0cafa1006f8c5b3c00eec7d1/src/clojure_analyzer/docstrings.clj
15:28	ambrosebs	not all things work, but enough to get some work done
15:28	nickmbailey	like {:prop1 100 :prop2 200} -> (doto (new Object) (.setProp1 100) (.setProp2 200))?
15:28	TimMc	nickmbailey: Basically, convert to bean accessors?
15:28	daniel	TimMc: same error if i change to (defpartial login [id]
15:28	nickmbailey	bean setters yeah
15:28	brehaut	(map munge params) <- lol
15:29	nickmbailey	dammit i have to leave for a sec but thanks in advance for any advice
15:29	ambrosebs	brehaut: heh, (def munge identity)
15:29	brehaut	haha
15:30	ambrosebs	the whole thing is a bit of a hack of course
15:30	ambrosebs	(my conversion)
15:30	ambrosebs	I'll start a serious attempt soon
15:31	brehaut	ambrosebs: what information does the analyzer produce?
15:32	brehaut	oh. dont worry, i just found analyze and its docstring
15:32	ambrosebs	it's lots of fun to play with
15:35	pjstadig	`fogus: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CMEMOIZE-3
15:37	daniel	it seems like my error is due to the form-to helper, i have another partial which works fine
15:37	daniel	also uses a map of :keys
15:45	TimMc	daniel: "Named" indicates something is calling (name ...), perhaps for a map key or a field name. "Character" means maybe a string is getting turned into a seq.
15:52	daniel	TimMc: think i've found the problem, i need to pass form-to a vector
15:52	daniel	thanks
15:52	`fogus	member:pjstadig: Thanks! Even better would be to assume that the underlying cache is an associative structure. So maybe it's enough to get the snapshot via (into {} (.cache @cache))
15:53	`fogus	pjstadig: ^^^
15:54	pjstadig	`fogus: oh right, yeah that would be better
15:55	`fogus	But, yes. Patches welcomed. :-)
15:59	pjstadig	`fogus: actually wouldn't (into {} x) treat x as a seq, maybe just returning (.cache @cache) is all that's needed if the underlying cache can be assumed to be associative?
15:59	pyr	`fogus: I see that you mention AsyncCacheProtocol in the core.cache 0.5.0 announcement
15:59	pjstadig	i guess we have to deref the delays though
16:03	`fogus	pjstadig: We can return the cache directly if it's immutable I suppose, but they might not all be.
16:03	`fogus	pyr: Indeed
16:03	`fogus	gotta run gentle-persons
16:04	`fogus	bai now
16:11	daniel	can anyone enlighten me on this error? Key must be integer - (class java.lang.IllegalArgumentException)
16:13	daniel	nevermind, i think im passing around anull value somewhere
16:15	amalloy	daniel: you will get about twenty times as much help with errors if you gist an actual stacktrace instead of excerpting the part you think might be relevant
16:16	amalloy	for this particular error it's easy though: you're looking up an index in a vector, and the index isn't an integer
16:16	amalloy	&(get [1 2 3] 1)
16:16	lazybot	⇒ 2
16:16	amalloy	&(get [1 2 3] "test")
16:16	lazybot	⇒ nil
16:16	amalloy	&([1 2 3] "test")
16:16	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Key must be integer
16:32	Turtl3boi	OH "Lisp" stands for "List processing"
16:32	daniel	amalloy: thanks
16:33	Somelauw	john mccarty died this year in october
16:33	Somelauw	He was the inventor of lisp
16:34	TimMc	daniel: Ah, so your string was getting seq called on it, and then name was getting called on the first char.
16:34	Turtl3boi	awww man
16:34	Turtl3boi	i didn't even know that
16:35	Somelauw	I didn't saw it in any newspapers and learned it by actually visiting wikipedia.
16:36	daniel	well they were busy reporting on Steve Jobs
16:37	Turtl3boi	well i should've known more about the Lisp language
16:37	amalloy	re mccarthy: https://twitter.com/#!/danbernier/status/128599665737338882
16:39	amalloy	(point being, i guess, that the CS "media" was pretty busy at the time)
16:40	Somelauw	What!? Is Ritchie dead as well?
16:40	amalloy	yes
16:40	amalloy	october was a sad month
17:25	lobotomy	argh, how the heck is binding supposed to work
17:26	lobotomy	is it not supposed to cascade down function calls? or is there something else wrong here
17:27	cgray	in compojure, is it possible to have a route like "/foo/:bar" and have that get called when the url is "/foo/bar.baz"?
17:28	cgray	i.e., have dots in the url
17:30	cgray	aha, it looks like you can with ["/foo/:bar" #"[a-zA-Z0-9\.]*"] or so
17:31	cgray	oops ["/foo/:bar" :bar #"[a-zA-Z0-9\.]*"]
17:32	amalloy	cgray: fwiw, the \ in \. there is irrelevant
17:32	cgray	amalloy: thanks
17:33	cgray	and I guess it should be + instead of * at the end, so that the empty string isn't accepted
17:33	amalloy	actually that whole regex is #"[\w.]+"
17:33	amalloy	i think? you can put \w inside character classes, right?
17:34	nickik	some emacs hacker around?
17:34	amalloy	&(re-seq #"[\w.]+" "words. more words.")
17:34	lazybot	⇒ ("words." "more" "words.")
17:34	amalloy	~anyone
17:34	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
17:38	cgray	can the percent symbol not go in a character class?
17:39	lobotomy	on binding: why doesn't the following code work? -> http://pastebin.com/NZegZQSw
17:39	cgray	&(re-seq #"[\w.+-\%]+" "words.+with-pluses%")
17:39	lazybot	java.util.regex.PatternSyntaxException: Illegal character range near index 7[\w.+-\%]+ ^
17:39	cgray	needed another \
17:39	amalloy	cgray: \%, really? take all the \s out of your regexes :P
17:39	cgray	amalloy: didn't work that way
17:40	amalloy	well \\% is certifiably crazy if you just want to allow %. it's identical to % except that it also allows backslashes
17:41	amalloy	it's the - that's causing you problems
17:41	cgray	damn it
17:41	amalloy	#[-\w.+%]
17:41	amalloy	#"[-\w.+%]"
17:41	cgray	yep, you're right
17:41	_ulises	ahoy
17:42	lobotomy	(also, how the hell do i disable the pause in emacs after slime returns an error)
17:42	amalloy	lobotomy: i think it's fair to say that the odds of anyone reading-and-executing all that code and telling you what's wrong is roughly 0%.
17:43	_ulises	lobotomy: ref. 1st question, that's quite some code, which bit doesn't work?
17:43	_ulises	oh, heh
17:43	lobotomy	the last 15 lines are the relevant ones
17:43	amalloy	but you're probably experiencing issues related to the interaction between laziness and binding
17:43	amalloy	yes, definitely
17:43	lobotomy	binding works when i do one thing, when i do multiple things it doesn't
17:44	lobotomy	if i put the for inside a binding, that also doesn't work
17:44	amalloy	no, it works when you do N things, but you are doing 0 things. for returns a lazy sequence
17:44	weavejester	cgray: The latest RC of Compojure supports "." in keywords.
17:44	weavejester	By default
17:44	lobotomy	even though all the things work individually
17:44	amalloy	by the time elements of that lazy sequence are evaluated, the binding is no longer in place
17:44	lobotomy	my theory is that whoever coded up this stuff is even less capable with clojure than i am
17:45	amalloy	no, it's just you
17:45	cgray	weavejester: good to know, though I am hacking on 4clojure, so I guess it's up to the team if they want to use the RC
17:45	_ulises	nice theory
17:45	lobotomy	i mean, that isn't my code
17:45	lobotomy	except for the last 15 or so lines
17:45	amalloy	cgray: the only issue is in the last 15 or so lines
17:46	amalloy	cgray: what are you adding?
17:46	cgray	amalloy: openid support
17:46	amalloy	er, lobotomy: the only issue is in the last 15 or so lines
17:46	amalloy	nice, thanks
17:46	lobotomy	so you mean i can't use for in the code?
17:46	cgray	amalloy: thank me when it's done :P
17:46	lobotomy	what do i do then, use doseq instead?
17:46	amalloy	lobotomy: you need to understand how lazy sequences and binding interact. once you understand that, you can use for whenever you want
17:47	lobotomy	well, how do they interact?
17:47	amalloy	for immediately returns a lazy sequence. by the time elements of that lazy sequence are evaluated, the binding is no longer in place
17:47	lobotomy	yes, i got that
17:47	amalloy	it's the difference between lexical scope and dynamic scope
17:48	amalloy	&(let [f (binding [clojure-version 10] (fn [] clojure-version))] (f))
17:48	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! pop-thread-bindings is bad!
17:48	amalloy	,(let [f (binding [clojure-version 10] (fn [] clojure-version))] (f))
17:48	clojurebot	{:major 1, :minor 3, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
17:49	amalloy	,(let [f (let [clojure-version 10] (fn [] clojure-version))] (f))
17:49	clojurebot	10
17:49	lobotomy	now that i've understood that, how do i get for to work?
17:50	amalloy	any number of ways. you could wrap a doall around the body of try-things
17:51	amalloy	you could have try-things capture game-info lexically, and then rebind it dynamically at each iteration of the for
17:58	Somelauw	Something that really annoys me is that all lisp dialects have a different order in which to supply the arguments to reduce.
18:06	amalloy	Somelauw: really? what do scheme and CL use?
18:09	amalloy	fwiw, haskell uses the same order clojure does, for both foldl and foldr
18:10	brehaut	it happens to be the most useful order for partial application
18:11	Somelauw	amalloy: scheme does (foldl cons '() '(1 2 3))
18:11	Somelauw	'(3 2 1)
18:11	amalloy	that's the same order as clojure?
18:11	Somelauw	CL does (reduce #'cons '(1 2 3))
18:11	Somelauw	((1 . 2) . 3)
18:12	Somelauw	clojure does lisp order, but clojure can't use cons that way
18:12	brehaut	,(reduce conj () '(1 2 3))
18:12	clojurebot	(3 2 1)
18:12	Somelauw	(reduce list [] [1 2 3])
18:12	Somelauw	((([] 1) 2) 3)
18:12	brehaut	i think you mean that the reduce function takes the arguments in reverse order
18:12	weavejester	If I want to remove a piece of data from a vector whilst maintaining its order...
18:13	amalloy	weavejester: don't use a vector :P
18:13	weavejester	Is there a better way than just (vec (remove (partial = blah) d))
18:13	weavejester	amalloy: What would I use instead?
18:13	kephale	cant you use ordered.set?
18:13	weavejester	There's an ordered set?
18:13	amalloy	nah, ordered.set is pretty bad at disjoins too
18:13	amalloy	weavejester: i implemented one; it keeps a backing set and vector internally
18:14	weavejester	I'm not worried about performance; it's more an example.
18:14	amalloy	updates both, reads from one or the other, depending whether you want ordering or membership test
18:14	amalloy	weavejester: i don't think a good data structure for what you want really exists ready-made (in clojure)
18:15	amalloy	a vector would be fine for an example, though using seqs probably makes more sense if you're going to be doing much removing
18:15	weavejester	amalloy: So is (vec (remove (partial = item) coll)) the best way of writing it, do you think?
18:15	Somelauw	The code for cl was wrong, it should be: (reduce #'cons '(1 2 3) :initial-value '())
18:15	Somelauw	(((NIL . 1) . 2) . 3)
18:16	amalloy	weavejester: well, unless you have duplicates in the list
18:16	weavejester	amalloy: Fortunately nope
18:17	amalloy	if you wanted to be careful about that case you could write ##(let [v [1 2 3 1 2 3] [before [x after]] (split-with (complement #{3}) v)] (vec (concat before after)))
18:17	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long
18:18	amalloy	or...apparently not actually that, but something close?
18:18	Somelauw	And clojure and scheme don't use the same order. conj just takes the arguments in opposite order than cons.
18:19	brehaut	Somelauw: _reduce_ takes the functions in the same order, the function to reduce takes them in reverse order
18:19	_ulises	amalloy: would you mind explaining to me the interaction between lazy seqs and bindings? I've been bitten before with binding and threading so I wouldn't mind understanding a bit more about the interplay there. Alternatively, I'm happy with an RTFM and a pointer :)
18:20	amalloy	if you've already read my explanation to lobotomy i'm not really up to something more detailed
18:20	amalloy	&(let [v [1 2 3 1 2 3] [before [x & after]] (split-with (complement #{3}) v)] (vec (concat before after))) ;; forgot the &
18:20	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 1 2 3]
18:20	_ulises	ok, no worries, thanks anyway :)
18:31	lobotomy	i went with doall, seems to work and is simple enough for now
18:38	cgray	amalloy: if you want to play with the openid code, have a look at the openid branch in my github https://github.com/chrismgray/4clojure/tree/openid ... I think it's getting pretty complete
18:38	sdeobald	Does anyone know if clojure.math.expt has found a new home yet in 1.3?
18:43	amalloy	cgray: if you're interested in getting feedback or a dialog about your changes, you can open a pull request. if the feature isn't "done" yet, then just make a note that you don't want it actually pulled. pull requests are great for review/discussion, because they're a centralized place to have a discussion
19:14	cgray	amalloy: ok, will do
20:19	wiseen	is there a logging library (like tools.logging) for clojurescript ?
20:22	cgray	wiseen: I don't know tools.logging, but for simple logging, you can use (.log js/console foo)
20:25	wiseen	cgray, will that work cross browser ?
20:25	wiseen	by work I mean not fail :)
20:27	cgray	wiseen: I think so
20:27	cgray	it works on chrome and firefox
20:28	amalloy	i think console.log is part of the js spec (and a part that is actually implemented by everyone)
20:33	dnolen	cgray: console.log will not work on < IE 8, if that matters.
20:34	cgray	dnolen: it doesn't to me, it might to wiseen :)
20:36	wiseen	will just add dummy log-error and log-info to my lib
20:36	wiseen	so I can turn it off/on when I want
20:57	TimMc	It's only available if you have a debugging tool, AFAIK.
20:58	TimMc	IE 8 and Chrome come with dev tools by default.
21:25	TimMc	gtrak```: I think it is (abstract (singleton ((proxy factory) bean)))
21:25	TimMc	after much deliberation
21:48	jhirn	This may be unorthodox, but is it possible to bind the result of a :when test to return in a list comprehension.
21:48	jhirn	EX; (for [x xs :when (fn x y)] [x (fn x y)])
21:49	licenser	jhirn: map it beforehand?
21:50	licenser	(for [[x r] (map (fm [x] [x (f xs)) xs) :when r] [x r])
21:50	licenser	or along the line
21:50	jhirn	Let me see if that works for my case
21:51	licenser	not when you just copy since I messed yup f and fn ^^
21:51	licenser	also I forgot your y
21:51	jhirn	=) I'll interpolate
21:51	licenser	fine fein :)
21:51	licenser	pets on the head and tosses a cookie good programmer, what a goooood programmer
21:56	jhirn	Still working on it, pulling a function out atm
21:57	licenser	^^
21:57	dnolen	ambrosebs: starting to dig into the CLJS analyzer, it's pretty nice how much is already there. do you use the cljs.compiler/namespaces atom at all?
22:06	jhirn	So this is my actual comprehension. I'm not convinced it has to be a comprehension but this is the wall my head is currently cozy with.
22:06	jhirn	(for [original-filename (:deleted-files files)
22:06	jhirn	:when (moved-file-location original-filename (:new-files files)) ]
22:06	jhirn	[original-filename, (moved-file-location original-filename (:new-files files))])
22:09	brehaut	jhirn: i think (keep (fn [original-filename] (when-let [loc (moved-file-location original-filename (:new-files files))] [original-filename loc])) (:deleted-files files))
22:09	brehaut	is equivalent
22:10	jhirn	it passes the test, thanks.
22:11	brehaut	jhirn: you might find :let useful in your comprehension version too
22:11	jhirn	ah.... can you combine :let and :when?
22:12	brehaut	,(for [a (range 10) :let [b (* a 3)] :when (odd? b)] b)
22:12	clojurebot	(3 9 15 21 27)
22:15	jhirn	That is exactly what was I was looking for brehaut!
22:15	jhirn	Many thx.
22:21	reiddraper	Any ideas why defrecord and deftype don't take docstrings? Or am I missing something?
22:28	melipone	hi! what's the best way to find an element in a collection in clojure?
22:28	brehaut	reiddraper: presumably because they generate classes, and classes come from javaland and thus cant have meta data
22:28	brehaut	melipone: it depends on the collection
22:28	melipone	msg brehaut how about '(a b c d e f) and I want to find the position of d?
22:29	brehaut	melipone: its uncommon to use a list for a list in clojure, you probably mean a vector or a seq?
22:29	melipone	brehaut: yes
22:30	brehaut	(that was terribly imprecise english)
22:31	melipone	LOL
22:31	brehaut	so with a vector you can do
22:31	brehaut	,(.indexOf [1 2 3 4] 3)
22:31	clojurebot	2
22:31	melipone	oh, I can do that?
22:31	reiddraper	brehaut: that makes sense, thanks
22:32	melipone	thanks, I thought that indexOf was only for strings
22:32	melipone	but strings are vectors too ...
22:32	brehaut	melipone: clojure's collections implement the appropriate java collections api methods
22:32	brehaut	melipone: strings are assuredly not vectors
22:33	brehaut	but both are able to be coerced into sequences
22:35	brehaut	melipone: i dont know how you would find the index of something in sequence though
22:35	brehaut	huh. apparently .indexOf works again
22:35	brehaut	melipone: in both cases i would expect it to be an O(N) operation
22:40	brehaut	melipone: the other comment is that if you are using either a seq or a vector and wanting the index of things, you are probably using the wrong datastructure
22:48	amalloy	brehaut: java.util.List has .indexOf - vectors and seqs implement that, but maps don't
22:49	brehaut	amalloy: yeah i realised that vectors didnt, i wasnt aware that seqs did
22:49	amalloy	List being, basically, "an ordered Collection"
22:51	gtrak```	TimMc, glad we got that cleared up :-)
22:52	amalloy	but i'd like to echo brehaut's last point: if you're trying to look up something's index in a collection, you're probably using either a bad algorithm or a bad data structure. i tried to make that point myself but apparently wasn't connected to irc at the time :P
23:01	melipone	amalloy: what should I be using then?
23:01	amalloy	impossible to answer in isolation
23:17	reiddraper	is autodoc popular outside of clojure.org? It seems that people have been putting their own releases on clojars because there haven't been official releases in forever
23:28	technomancy_	reiddraper: yeah, there are issues with autodoc. most people seem to prefer marginalia.
23:29	reiddraper	technomancy_: thanks, i think marginalia is awesome, and was hoping to have both types of documentation. oh well
23:31	technomancy_	I never really saw the point; having docstrings available at runtime always seemed a lot more convenient than reading HTML
23:31	technomancy_	unless you need to send a link to someone, I guess
23:32	reiddraper	technomancy_: the point of marg or autodoc?
23:32	technomancy_	mostly autodoc, but I guess the same point applies to marginalia
23:33	technomancy_	marginalia is a bit different since it's all on one page though, which you don't get with reading source
23:33	reiddraper	I think there is something to having the "public" api in one place, which is what i was hoping to get from autodoc
23:34	technomancy_	do you use slime?
23:34	reiddraper	nope
23:34	reiddraper	vim user
23:36	reiddraper	either way having html docs is nice for new users who haven't even necessarily got a repl open with your project, just starting to see if it's well documented, etc.
23:36	technomancy_	yeah, I guess so
23:39	reiddraper	technomancy_: otherwise why would heroku have html docs :)
23:40	technomancy_	welllll...
23:40	reiddraper	hehe
23:40	technomancy_	documenting an application is very different from documenting a library
23:40	technomancy_	lots of docs here: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/tree/master/doc
23:41	tmciver	I've got a project with a print method and when I use it I get a warning that 'print already refers to clojure.core/print' which is fine. But when I (use :reload my-ns) I get an IllegalStateException. What should I do about that?
23:41	dnolen	anyone got opinions about this ClojureScript enhancement? https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/compare/master...analyzer-plus, it brings back some of the functionality that was lost from Vars and Namespaces not being reified in ClojureScript.
23:42	reiddraper	technomancy_: and those are another great type of documentation. I sort of like the idea that there are three types of documentation. 1. high level tutorial or narrative type. 2. public api ala clojure.org 3. code comments
23:43	technomancy_	reiddraper: yeah, I just think most of the time reading comments from the files themselves is more convenient than a web page
23:46	reiddraper	technomancy_: sure, fair enough
23:51	ambrosebs	dnolen: what exactly is it doing?
23:51	dnolen	ambrosebs: storing the line numbers of all defs
23:51	dnolen	ambrosebs: that's normally done on vars in Clojure
23:51	ambrosebs	ah cool
23:52	dnolen	ambrosebs: but really it's more than just about line numbers, cljs.compiler/namespaces becomes the place to go after running cljs.compiler/analyze-file
23:53	technomancy_	ambrosebs: curious what the rationale for not using type hints for typed-clojure is
23:53	ambrosebs	technomancy_: heh, actually still juggling. It's starting to look like an ok idea
23:54	technomancy_	ambrosebs: if it were me I would have just taken it for granted, so it's good that you're thinking it through. =)
23:55	ambrosebs	technomancy_: seemed funny to me to use a compiler "hint" as static type information
23:55	ambrosebs	but it's clean
23:55	ambrosebs	and has type information :)
23:56	technomancy_	yeah, I can see how you wouldn't want to complect "here's something to help you avoid reflection" with "help me tell if this program is correct" but I don't really see them diverging at all in practice
23:57	ambrosebs	exactly, I just need a little more convincing
23:58	technomancy_	technically right now types that don't match the hint are not bugs by definition, but it's hard to imagine real cases where they are intended.
23:58	technomancy_	best-case is they're harmless.
23:59	ambrosebs	yes