#clojure – 2011-11-17

2011-11-17

00:04	changbeer	http://ideone.com/4D5hj looking at this simple example, can anyone see why it cant locate clj_record
00:06	Raynes	changbeer: You're requiring clj-record.boot, but you're using clj-record.core.
00:07	Raynes	That is a problem, not necessarily the problem.
00:07	Raynes	It's a start though.
00:10	hiredman	monads?
00:10	clojurebot	monads is http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/monad-in-Scheme.html
00:10	hiredman	I tell you, runtime patching via the repl is the devil
00:23	jcromartie	hiredman: really?
00:23	jcromartie	how about Erlang?
00:23	hiredman	what about it?
00:25	jcromartie	you said runtime patching via the REPL is the devil
00:25	hiredman	and?
00:25	jcromartie	what about hot-swapped updates, a la Erlang
00:25	jcromartie	they seem to do pretty well
00:25	jcromartie	I think Clojure could do the same
00:26	hiredman	the issue with runtime patching via the repl is keeping a consistent state, it is all to easy to, change a function, change another function, reload the system, find the second function doesn't work, change it back, now your functions don't work together, etc
00:28	jcromartie	true
00:28	jcromartie	but I guess it's a matter of degrees
00:28	jcromartie	what if you design for hot-swapping, and test before deploying the update somewhere?
00:29	jcromartie	i.e. defonce, etc.
00:29	jcromartie	anyway, off to be with me
00:29	jcromartie	bed
00:29	jcromartie	goodnight
00:29	jcromartie	how the heck is it midnight already
00:31	noncom	hello!
00:32	noncom	i have a question
00:33	brehaut	noncom: just ask it, if someone can answer they will
00:34	noncom	i want to begin learning clojure (and already did), but everywhere i go, i mostly see stallnesss. the 1.3.0 version was released over a year ago. clojure box is no longer maintained since clojure 1.2.0, last comment on rich hickey blog is for almost a year ago. counterclockwise for eclipse is also only for clojure 1.2.0.... no real books to read about clojure 1.3.0.
00:34	noncom	this is SAD! since i like the language.
00:34	hiredman	1.3.0 was released a few months ago
00:34	Raynes	No way.
00:34	Raynes	1.3.0 was just released.
00:36	noncom	Raynes: hmm then my source was wrong about that
00:37	noncom	well, anyway, what development environment would you recommend then? preferably something like counterclockwise or clojure box. or is the only possibility for now - emacs?
00:37	amalloy	noncom: isn't clojurebox emacs?
00:37	ibdknox	CCW, emacs, vim, la clojure
00:38	noncom	it is, but it is all-in-a-box. i like eclipse and i see no point in learning emacs for that...
00:38	ibdknox	ccw works quite well
00:38	hiredman	so I was doing some parts of speech tagging in the inference stuff (for complex stuff it would try and just pull out nouns and infer with those) but it makes looks 100x slower
00:38	noncom	yes it does. but is there any way to integrate clojure 1.3.0 into it?
00:38	hiredman	egads
00:39	ibdknox	noncom: just replace the dependency with a 1.3.0 dependency?
00:39	hiredman	look ups
00:40	noncom	ok, i will try) then i will go on in clojure direction, you have calmed me)
00:42	noncom	thank you for your attention)
00:43	brehaut	counterclockwise has had two siginficant releases in the last month or so too
00:43	brehaut	0.4.0 and 0.5.0 ?
00:43	Raynes	And Rich just isn't a blogger.
00:43	Raynes	Which is why that doesn't get updated much.
00:44	Raynes	As far as books go, 1.2 -> 1.3 wasn't a huge jump, so older books like Practical Clojure and The Joy of Clojure still apply just fine.
00:44	noncom	yeah my ccw is 0.5.0stable002
00:44	Raynes	Clojure Programming, a new book targeting 1.3, is mostly done and not too far from the printers.
00:44	Raynes	I'm writing a book targeting 1.3 and potentially 1.4 myself.
00:45	Raynes	I assure you Clojure is no more stalled than the Earth blasting through space around the sun.
00:45	noncom	this is very good to hear since i am very interested with it as it is lisp and is for java
00:46	noncom	i am not a lisp professional but clojure seems the best for me since i am mostly from java
00:50	noncom	one more question about the books - will they be available on the main clojure site? online versions? printed versions?
00:53	noncom	ok, i have to go, see you late!
02:55	mindbender1	hi
02:55	brehaut	hi
03:46	keith_	Which language construct is appropriate for building on top of host objects that mutate. deftype? (I'm new to Clojure)
03:46	brehaut	keith_: thats a heavy weight solution
03:47	brehaut	keith_: are you new to functional programming or just clojure?
03:47	Chousuke	keith_: building in which way?
03:47	keith_	both, but mostly clojure
03:48	brehaut	keith_: you can write a huge amount of clojure without ever having to touch a deftype
03:48	Chousuke	in general if you're working with mutable java objects via interop there's little to help you. The best you can do is try to keep the code with mutable things small and separate from other logic
03:49	brehaut	keith_: the reference types are generally sufficient for most mutation, and they manage access semantics much more clearly than an ad hoc deftype
03:49	Chousuke	you can also try converting the data from the mutable object into some immutable form and process that.
03:49	Chousuke	reference types won't help with java objects though
03:49	keith_	ya
03:50	Chousuke	at least until pods appear, or whatever Rich comes up with :P
03:50	Chousuke	I wonder what happened to that idea
03:50	brehaut	oh, i misread; you have mutating objects already ?
03:50	amalloy	Chousuke: he mentioned pods again at the conj
03:50	Chousuke	oh, cool
03:51	keith_	brehaut: I'm not actually working on something specific. I'm just trying to understand the paradigm
03:51	amalloy	it still isn't very developed as an idea
03:51	amalloy	keith_: paradigm: avoid mutation
03:51	Chousuke	keith_: you can't avoid mutable things if you deal with java but you can do various things to minimise the code that touches it
03:52	Chousuke	having a clean design is a good start
03:53	Chousuke	the keyword is isolation. try to keep mutation separate from program logic that does not need mutation.
03:54	Chousuke	that way you can at least test the non-mutating code separately and you have a smaller problem to deal with :)
03:56	Chousuke	I guess something like line-seq is a good example. it converts a stateful thing into an immutable sequence. The code that consumes the seq does not need to care what the seq comes from, only the part which calls the seq-consuming function needs to deal with closing the input stream and any exceptions.
03:58	brehaut	just did a rewrite of my syntax highlighter brush; the parser now correct attaches all the prefix symbols to the following form
03:58	brehaut	(not that it does anything with them yet)
03:59	keith_	From listening to Rich's videos and what not I can understand why mutable objects (in the sense of Date, String, etc.) are bad. I'm having trouble understanding how things like web-servers or user-interfaces should be written
04:00	brehaut	keith_: leaving aside database access, a web app (and server) is actually a pretty good example
04:00	brehaut	you have a narrow interface to the world that deals with mutable state (handling sockets, accepting incoming data)
04:00	clojurebot	datatype is see datatypes
04:01	keith_	so if I were to write a UI for another programmer to consume. In OOP he'd get a class. In clojure he'd get a function that took a socket?
04:01	Wild_Cat	brehaut: indeed, webapps are mostly stateless, due to HTTP's own stateless nature. GUI apps, OTOH, are another problem.
04:01	keith_	s/UI/web-server
04:03	brehaut	keith_: i dont understand the question
04:03	keith_	If I were writing a web-server for another programmer to use. What is the programmatic interface I would give him?
04:03	brehaut	Wild_Cat: thats like saying 'inherent state is inherent'!
04:04	amalloy	Chousuke: line-seq isn't a very good example, because it's not the case taht only the seq-producing code neads to deal with closing the file
04:04	brehaut	Wild_Cat: you can still remove accidental state, just like you can in a web service. it happens that you'll probably remove less, but thats beside the point
04:04	brehaut	keith_: is the other programmer using the web server to build a website?
04:05	keith_	sure I guess, or maybe a web-service or restful API. whatever
04:05	brehaut	keith_: because if so, id expect the web server to respect the ring interface, where a server is passed a single function that takes a map representing the request and returns a map representing the response
04:06	keith_	and it calls that function for each request?
04:06	brehaut	eg, heres how you start up a jetty webserver with the ring adapter: (run-jetty your-website-handler {:port 8000})
04:07	brehaut	your-website-handler is just a function
04:07	brehaut	a really simple website might be
04:07	brehaut	(defn your-website-function [req] {:status 200 :headers {} :body "Hello, world!"} )
04:07	brehaut	keith_: yes
04:08	Wild_Cat	of course, that function will have to, at some point, query a database and/or modify session vars, and that's where the mutability is concentrated.
04:09	amalloy	or a slightly more involved example: (defn your-website-function [req] {:status 404 :headers {} :body (str "Sorry, I couldn't find " (:uri req))})
04:09	amalloy	Wild_Cat: if you drop "of course" and replace "will have to" with "might", that's more accurate :P
04:10	amalloy	for example, you could snarf the whole db into memory at load time and present a read-only view of it, like for elephantdb
04:10	Wild_Cat	amalloy: well, I ignored static websites for the purposes of this discussion, because static websites are by definition immutable ;)
04:11	Wild_Cat	likewise read-only DBs ;)
04:11	Wild_Cat	you shouldn't need mutable state to represent/render immutable data.
04:12	brehaut	Wild_Cat: and yet, if you were to use python or java or ruby, you would have buckets of the stuff
04:12	brehaut	(where 'the stuff' is mutable data)
04:13	Wild_Cat	brehaut: not really, no. In Python I'd simply start up a template engine, make a quick query to an ORM and presto.
04:13	Wild_Cat	however, Python doesn't enfore immutability.
04:13	Wild_Cat	enforce*
04:13	brehaut	Wild_Cat: neither does clojure
04:13	brehaut	this isnt haskell
04:13	keith_	but maps are immutable
04:13	Wild_Cat	brehaut: but most of its data structures are immutable, though?
04:14	brehaut	Wild_Cat: sure, but thats not the same as enforcing immutability
04:14	Wild_Cat	I mean, you have to explicitly declare stuff as mutable (or use Java classes but it's cheating), right?
04:15	brehaut	if you mean, you can suddenly treat an immutable datastructure as mutable, well of course, but mutabilty is available trivially, (and as an asside, java classes are not 'cheating' in clojure; java is first class)
04:16	brehaut	,(let [a (atom 1)] (prn @a) (reset! a 2) (prn @a) nil)
04:16	clojurebot	1
04:16	clojurebot	2
04:16	brehaut	trivial mutable state, and i can stick that anywhere in my program as needed (although i would try not to)
04:17	clgv	brehaut: yes you can. ;) but make sure that you really need it
04:17	brehaut	in contrast, if you were to try that in haskell you would be required (by the type system) to use either IO, STM or ST monads
04:19	brehaut	Wild_Cat: thing is, basically every non trivial program has state. its inherent in the whole endeavor. the important thing is that where possible the only state in the program is related to the actual problem at hand, and no accidental state forced upon you by the tools.
04:21	keith_	I'm just too used to gluing objects together inside of other objects
04:21	amalloy	keith_: it's super-easy to shove maps inside of other maps instead :)
04:21	clgv	keith_: it takes a few weeks programming clojure to get rid of that ;)
04:21	brehaut	and functions inside other functions!
04:22	amalloy	true that. i love higher-order functions
04:22	keith_	brehaut: I'm starting to see why function composition ACTUALLY works when OOP is so frustrating
04:22	amalloy	i can't really think usefully at even the third order, but second-order functions are immensely useful all over
04:22	brehaut	amalloy: +1
04:23	keith_	but, take the user-interface example, I still don't quite understand how I would abstract something like that
04:23	brehaut	im not entirely sure i even know what a third order function is
04:23	amalloy	brehaut: a function that takes, or returns, a second-order function
04:23	keith_	coming from environments where I would sub-class Control/Widget/Whatever
04:23	amalloy	according to whatshisname
04:23	brehaut	keith_: you'd have a couple of reference types holding coarse grained immutable data, and you'd defereference it when you need to update the view,
04:24	keith_	dereference meaning getting a value?
04:24	brehaut	good old whatshisname
04:24	brehaut	keith_: yes
04:24	brehaut	@ is the deference operator
04:24	amalloy	$google sixth order functions parser combinators
04:24	lazybot	[Even Higher-Order Functions for Parsing or Why Would Anyone ...] http://www.eecs.usma.edu/webs/people/okasaki/jfp98.ps
04:24	brehaut	well, reader thingimy
04:24	clojurebot	is translated to unquote by the reader, and as ` is expanded it is removed
04:24	keith_	ya I saw that. So that's intended to be used with things like atom then?
04:24	amalloy	brehaut: okasaki, apparently
04:24	brehaut	amalloy: wow. this looks like brain bending
04:25	amalloy	yeah, i don't think i finished reading it
04:25	brehaut	all the ML is hurting my simple brain
04:26	brehaut	curiously, it appears that straight forward lambda calculus never steps below second order
04:26	alex_baranosky	~ml
04:26	clojurebot	XmL is case-sensitive
04:27	brehaut	alex_baranosky: Meta Langauge; the family containg ocaml, sml, F# and distantly Haskell
04:27	amalloy	brehaut: i don't think that's true, is it? you can add two numbers in lambda calculus without involving function composition, i thought
04:28	alex_baranosky	brehaut: I don't do the ~ thing to learn... mostly just to see what silly thing ClojureBot will come up with :)
04:28	brehaut	amalloy: but every number is itself a function right?
04:28	keith_	in lambda calc aren't numbers just functions?
04:28	brehaut	alex_baranosky: aha
04:29	brehaut	i really need to head to bed
04:29	brehaut	i fear i may have extremely higher order nightmares
04:29	keith_	brehaut: thanks for the help
04:29	brehaut	no worries
07:09	clgv	which is the fastest way to create a hashmap from key-value-pair data (large) read from disk?
07:13	lucian	clgv: a lazy map backed by mmap might work, but i don't even know if java provides mmap
07:13	clgv	lucian: no, I meant I already have the data read and want to create a clojure map
07:14	lucian	i see. don't know what would be faster then
07:16	clgv	clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap/createWithCheck seems to consume a lot of time
07:21	clgv	oh it has a create-method for something implementing java.util.Map as well
07:34	raek	clgv: something like this? (loop [m {}] (if (end-of-file? ...) m (let [key (read-from-file), val (read-from-file)] (recur (assoc m key val)))))
07:35	raek	or perhaps (into {} (sequence-of-pairs-from-file))
07:36	raek	where that sequence can be lazy
07:36	clgv	raek: no thats already done. actually I have a java.util.HashMap and want a clojure hash-map. but that seems to consume a lot of time
07:37	raek	so constructing a clojure hash map takes too long time?
07:38	raek	clgv: have you tried if a transient clojure hash map sovles the problem?
07:39	clgv	raek: yeah, actually I just change that conversion to clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap/create - it's still slow and I currently prepare the benchmarkrun
07:41	clgv	fyi: create uses EMPTY.asTransient()
07:45	clgv	I only read a total of 5.6MB and its lasting pretty long
07:57	clgv	ok, the previous map related bottleneck is solved. now there is the problem that I cant write a defrecord in clojure 1.2.1 - so I store it as a normal hashmap and use into to get the data back into the instance - thats pretty damn slow.
07:57	clgv	most of the time is now spend in the reduce of into
07:58	clgv	can I do any transient stuff on the map implementation part of a defrecord?
08:00	raek	clgv: btw, what was the previous map related bottleneck?
08:02	clgv	raek: I replace the previous conversiobn from java.util.HashMap with (clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap/create java-hash-map) - before it used clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap/createWithCheck implicitly
08:09	clgv	I noticed that since a week or two the rendering of clojure's core.clj on github is pretty time consuming. did anyone experience this, too?
08:11	cemerick	clgv: using a transient hashmap will likely help your loading issues, and be cleaner than mucking with PHM static methods.
08:22	michael_campbell	are there any rules of thumb as to when to use cond vs if? Is it when you have > 2 decision paths or something?
08:23	jcromartie	michael_campbell: that's it exactly
08:23	jcromartie	michael_campbell: also, condp is even more powerful
08:24	michael_campbell	didn't know about that one yet... going to look =) Thanks
08:25	clgv	michael_campbell: 'cond expands to nested 'if statements so you may use it whenever it provides better readability
08:26	michael_campbell	Thanks. Is the :else keyword in cond used more or less where 't would have been in lisp?
08:27	clgv	michael_campbell: you only need to provide something truthy for the "catch all others" clause - it does not have to be an :else
08:28	michael_campbell	Gotcha.
08:59	Borkdude	I'm reading in the book Clean code about the opposites between procedural and OO. When adding new functions, procedural has no problem, but when new datastructures are added, functions must change to deal with them. In OO you can add new datastructures (classes) without changing code (polymorphism), but when you want to introduce new functions, code has to change. What is Clojure's take on this again? Have few datastructures and a lot
08:59	Borkdude	of functions?
09:04	duck1123	clojure has a lot of functions that work with many different datatypes
09:05	Borkdude	duck1123: say I want concat to work with my own datastructures... the take would be that my datastructure would implement ISeq right? And then we're back in OO.
09:05	duck1123	and most of the time, you use the standard clojure datatypes instead of inventing new ones. Instead of a class, you just use a hash map
09:06	duck1123	Borkdude: are you defining this type in Clojure or in something like java?
09:07	Borkdude	duck1123: preferably in clojure itself
09:07	ohpauleez	Borkdude: Clojure's approach is to have 100 functions that operate on 10 abstractions
09:08	ohpauleez	You apply transformations to generic data - that data is built up (or fulfills) certain abstractions
09:09	duck1123	Borkdude: you might want to look at defrecord if you want something map-like (holds key/vals) but is also typed
09:09	ohpauleez	if you want to build a low level data structure, you can, but you'll probably find that hash maps, sorted maps, vectors, finger trees, and records give you all you need
09:09	Borkdude	duck1123: do most functinos in clojure work on self defined records?
09:09	duck1123	but chances are, you don't even need the type and Clojure's data structures would work for you
09:09	ohpauleez	if you need a certain functionality from these generic data structures, you make a new abstraction, and extend their functionality
09:11	Borkdude	I guess I would have to see an example of this to understand this more
09:11	duck1123	Borkdude: most functions just work on sequences or maps, or whatnot. and don't really care what the type is, so long as it can do it's transformation
09:12	Borkdude	duck1123: what is the underlying type of a defrecord, a hash map?
09:12	duck1123	yes
09:12	duck1123	at least, they act like maps
09:12	ohpauleez	Borkdude: you should stop thinking of underlying types, and instead underlying abstractions
09:12	licenser	dun dun dun
09:12	Borkdude	duck1123: then why would I use that? (I never felt the need so far)
09:13	ohpauleez	Borkdude: You want to frame your problem using verbs, not the kingdom of nouns
09:14	Borkdude	ohpauleez: that's how I mostly do Clojure, I never felt the problem, but I was just wondering since I'm reading this book ;-)
09:16	ohpauleez	Borkdude: Records just fulfill protocol for map-like lookups
09:16	duck1123	Borkdude: http://cemerick.com/2011/07/05/flowchart-for-choosing-the-right-clojure-type-definition-form/
09:16	ohpauleez	so that they map interface when you use them
09:16	cemerick	more translations always wanted on that, BTW ^^
09:16	cemerick	:-)
09:17	TimMc	gfredericks: I might fork your lib-2367 and try adding getters to the macro, and maybe some support for isFoo for boolean fields.
09:17	Borkdude	duck1123: cemerick awesome
09:18	Borkdude	cemerick: translations?
09:18	cemerick	Portugese and Japanese translations are linked near the bottom.
09:18	Borkdude	cemerick: I could make a Dutch one if you'd like
09:18	cemerick	I should get Christophe to do one in French.
09:18	cemerick	Borkdude: If you make it, I'll link it. :-)
09:19	Borkdude	cemerick: in what program did you make it, Omnigraffle ?
09:19	duck1123	I could probably get it translated to Lojban, but it's doubtful that would help anyone
09:19	cemerick	yeah
09:19	cemerick	Borkdude: I can send you the source file if that would help
09:20	Borkdude	cemerick: sure, I'll download the 14 day trial and change the text
09:20	licenser	cemerick: I could offer german :)
09:21	duck1123	so where's the clojure program that will generate this as SVG?
09:22	cemerick	Borkdude, licenser: msg me your email addresses, I'll share a dropbox folder with you that contains the source diagram :-)
09:22	Borkdude	cemerick: how do I send a private message in emacs / erc? ;)
09:22	cemerick	do => /msg cemerick <your email addy>
09:23	Borkdude	done
09:23	raek	cemerick: I can provide a Swedish translation
09:28	cemerick	raek, Borkdude: licenser had a much better idea — I'll just create a github project and take pull requests. Don't know why I didn't think of that to start. :-P
09:29	Borkdude	cemerick: ok
09:29	licenser	cemerick: to make me feel smrt!
09:30	Borkdude	cemerick: maybe you could externalize the text somehow, so it would be easier for people to provide the text, without having a Omnigraffle license?
09:30	cemerick	hrm
09:31	Borkdude	cemerick: don't know how much trouble that is, or if it is possible at all
09:31	Borkdude	cemerick: we could write some clojure code that generates latex maybe instead
09:31	cemerick	It's all XML, so I think it's easily editable without omnigraffle anyway
09:31	Borkdude	cemerick: ooh that's good, problem solved
09:34	hugod	ot: if anyone can help me getting conkeror to work on lion, could you msg me…
09:43	cemerick	Borkdude, licenser, raek: See https://github.com/cemerick/clojure-type-selection-flowchart — just copy the top-level graffle file to a corresponding language-specific version in /translations, and edit there; omnigraffle would be easiest, but if you take a run at adding translations via editing the XML directly, I'll be happy to produce a corresponding png
09:43	licenser	cool cool :)
09:52	Borkdude	cemerick: working on it. Just a question. What do you mean with "statically refer to"
09:52	shtutgart	how can i find out what version of clojure.tools.macro (and other) available? There is <version>0.1.2-SNAPSHOT</version> in the pom.xml, but [org.clojure/tools.macro "0.1.2-SNAPSHOT"] doesn't work
09:53	cemerick	Borkdude: be able to use the name of a class within a JVM language source file that is to be processed via static compilation (e.g. Java)
09:53	cemerick	s/Java/Java + javac
09:55	joegallo	shtutgart: http://search.maven.org/#search\|ga\|1\|a%3A%22tools.macro%22
09:56	joegallo	which is to say -- go here http://search.maven.org/#search\|ga\|1\| and then type tools.macro in the search field ;)
09:57	joegallo	alternatively, if you are using leiningen, you can lein search tools.macro
09:59	duck1123	0.1.2-SNAPSHOT is on sonatype https://oss.sonatype.org/content/repositories/snapshots/org/clojure/tools.macro/
10:01	shtutgart	joegallo: thanks, I should remember lein search command :)
10:01	joegallo	you're welcome!
10:09	Borkdude	cemerick: I'm almost done, wondering how Omnigraffle will take care of ë in XML
10:10	raek	I have similar conserns...
10:12	duck1123	If I have a file containing a large clojure data structure, what's the best way to read that into a var?
10:12	raek	Borkdude: just make sure the text is encoded in UTF-8 (the encoding which the xml file declares that it uses)
10:15	Borkdude	cemerick: https://github.com/Borkdude/clojure-type-selection-flowchart can you try to compile that graffle?
10:15	TimMc	or Clojure AOT, yeah?
10:16	TimMc	(sorry, replying to scrollback -- referring to "statically refer to")
10:18	Borkdude	cemerick: wait, I installed omnigraffle now
10:18	Borkdude	and I see it's not yet perfect
10:19	Borkdude	cemerick: what exactly do you mean "associated with performance sensitive"
10:19	Borkdude	cemerick: do you mean: instance of the type will be used in performance sensitive situations?
10:25	cemerick	Borkdude: yes
10:26	cemerick	the .graffle file is omnigraffle's native format
10:29	raek	cemerick: I see that this flowchart never recommends 'reify' for pure-clojure uses
10:29	Borkdude	cemerick: graffle is on my repo
10:30	cemerick	raek: you mean with protocols? Yeah.
10:31	cemerick	it's already complex enough, and I didn't want to try to reorganize the layout yet again :-P
10:32	cemerick	a rare enough use case that I didn't feel bad about not including it.
10:32	cemerick	(so goes my justification anyway)
10:35	Borkdude	cemerick: sorry I send two pull requests, one when I didn't have the png on it. I also added the .graffle file for my own good.
10:37	Borkdude	I last used omnigraffle in 2005 :)
10:40	raek	cemerick: yeah, simple is good
10:44	raek	I really want to have a one-syllable word for "map" in Swedish...
10:44	lucian	i hate how the word map is overloaded, especially in functional languages
10:45	Borkdude	raek: I tend to not translate those words, because they are concepts in clojure itself
10:45	raek	"avbildning" is probably the correct translation, but unless you have been to a university you have probably never heard of it
10:46	raek	we just say "map" [mäp] in Linköping Clojure User Group :-)
10:47	TimMc	Hmm, the ä doesn't show up correctly on my work machine.
10:48	TimMc	Time to blame Linux Mint again!
10:49	lucian	TimMc: i'd blame your client
10:52	TimMc	lucian: Client is irssi under screen via SSH.
10:52	TimMc	Everything looks fine from my personal laptop.
10:52	lucian	right, so lots of things on the way to potentially fuck up :)
10:53	lucian	i bet on your terminal
10:53	TimMc	true
10:55	broquaint	Looks good from here with the same setup, TimMc, FWIW.
10:57	rafl	broquaint: o/
11:03	broquaint	o/ :)
11:05	cemerick	Borkdude: thanks! 2 things: (a) Feel free to add attribution to the png/graffle if you like, and (b) could you squash those commits into one?
11:05	Borkdude	cemerick: ok, wait a moment.
11:06	Borkdude	cemerick: I'm kind of a git n00b, how do I do this
11:06	cemerick	git rebase -i chas-origin/master
11:06	cemerick	You can then squash two of the commits and then give a single comment for the result
11:07	cemerick	lucian: once they become public, sure; before then, might as well to make the progression of things clear
11:08	michael_campbell	TimMc: I see the umlauted 'a' fine in linux mint on xchat.
11:08	lucian	cemerick: i still don't like it much :) i also use hg, that might be a factor
11:08	lucian	michael_campbell: same here, ubuntu xchat
11:09	michael_campbell	TimMc: I'm on Mint 11 though; you said you use 10, right?
11:10	Borkdude	cemerick: fatal: Needed a single revision
11:10	Borkdude	Invalid base
11:10	TimMc	michael_campbell: Yeah.
11:11	Borkdude	cemerick: what I did was a fork on github
11:11	Borkdude	cemerick: and then cloned it on my machine, edited
11:11	Borkdude	cemerick: and pushed
11:21	TimMc	OK, let's say you have a lazy seq of strings. Is there a better way than (doseq [s seq-of-str] (print s)) to print all the strings without holding onto the head?
11:22	TimMc	"Better" meaning clearer to the programmer or possibly more efficient.
11:28	fliebel	drewr: What does your map look like for multipart messages?
11:29	fliebel	TimMc: hm, this looks fine, but an alternative could be ##(dorun (map print ["foo" "bar" "baz"]))
11:29	lazybot	⇒ foobarbaznil
11:37	kephale	fliebel: any reason to use a dorun there instead of a doall?
11:38	TimMc	kephale: dorun drops the head, I think
11:38	TimMc	fliebel: I think that expresses it better, thanks.
11:39	kephale	ooo good to know
11:41	TimMc	&(doall (map print (range 5)))
11:41	lazybot	⇒ 01234(nil nil nil nil nil)
11:41	TimMc	&(dorun (map print (range 5)))
11:41	lazybot	⇒ 01234nil
11:41	kephale	gotcha
11:41	TimMc	THe purpose of doall is to realize an entire lazy seq.
11:42	TimMc	and give it back to you.
11:43	kephale	but doseq holds onto the head?
11:43	TimMc	I think not.
11:43	TimMc	,(doc doseq)
11:44	clojurebot	"([seq-exprs & body]); Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with bindings and filtering as provided by \"for\". Does not retain the head of the sequence. Returns nil."
11:44	kephale	mmm…
11:45	TimMc	(doseq [x s] foo) is like (dorun (map #(fn [x] foo) s))
11:45	kephale	right, so i'm kind of unclear why you would switch to dorun/map from doseq
11:46	TimMc	I'm not sure either!
11:46	kephale	lol
11:46	duck1123	doseq conveys the intention better
11:47	TimMc	Maybe.
11:48	TimMc	(doseq [x strs] (print x)) vs. (dorun (map print strs))... meh. They're pretty similar, aren't they.
11:49	kephale	doseq is actually kind of longer
11:50	duck1123	is there a performance difference maybe?
11:51	kephale	kind of hard to tell, the code for doseq is relatively long
11:52	TimMc	I don't like having to name the "x".
11:53	kephale	agreed
11:54	Borkdude	paradoxically x usually stands for something unnamed ;)
11:56	duck1123	It's funny. I was changing a block of my code from a map to a doseq right when this topic started
11:57	tsdh	When I have a symbol naming a namespace, how do I get the namespace?
11:59	fliebel	tsdh: find-ns?
11:59	fliebel	Why does derive require namespaced keywords?
12:00	tsdh	fliebel: Yes, that works. Thx
12:07	Borkdude	amalloy_: can I ask you in what way you prevent your own settings from a dev branch to be merged in with master's config.clj in 4clojure?
12:08	Borkdude	or anyone else
12:14	duck1123	Borkdude: http://gitready.com/intermediate/2009/02/18/temporarily-ignoring-files.html
12:16	Borkdude	duck1123: that's another way, but then I would have to do it for every time I would branch from master
12:17	Borkdude	duck1123: the thing I want to make sure it that the config.clj is never changed, without having to think about it ever again
12:17	Borkdude	in master that is
12:18	duck1123	Borkdude: I don't know of any foolproof ways other than just taking care of what you're staging
12:20	Borkdude	duck1123: I read this answer on SO, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/928646/how-do-i-tell-git-to-always-select-my-local-version-for-conflicted-merges-on-a-s
12:20	Borkdude	duck1123: it uses .gitattributes, but I wondered what way is used in the 4clojure project exactly
12:21	Borkdude	duck1123: there are several ways, I want the most git idiomatic one ;)
12:22	duck1123	In one pof my projects, I keep config.clj out of git and have it ignored, then I require the user to rename the sample file. I don't know what you'd do if the config file is already checked in like that
12:23	duck1123	of course the issue with that is I'll make new config options and then forget to add them to the template
12:24	Borkdude	duck1123: that problem would also exist with the SO solution
12:25	arohner	is there any way to control the user> prompt on slime? I'd love to change it to the hostname of the box I'm connected to
12:27	duck1123	arohner: repl takes a :prompt param. IIRC lein has a way to set the repl options
12:27	duck1123	:repl-options [:prompt (fn [] (print "your command, master? ") (flush))]
12:28	arohner	duck1123: thanks, but I think I need something different for slime
12:36	duck1123	I wish korma translated dashes to underscores. It hurts my head to do things like :venue_type_id in clojure
12:37	duck1123	I need to start playing with the transform option more
12:41	Borkdude	Just wondering, what is the origin (and exact meaning) of the expression "Blabla 101".. "in the very beginning of blabla"?
12:41	nDuff	Borkdude, 101 is the usual course number for introductory classes
12:41	Borkdude	nDuff: in what country
12:41	nDuff	Borkdude, the United States, at least; can't comment elsewhere.
12:42	Borkdude	nDuff: really, they have a system that actually saves a course id like "Blabla 101", and the next one is "Blabla 201" or ".. 102"?
12:42	duck1123	More that it's considered the introductory class. Few schools actually have a 101, oddly
12:43	duck1123	I guess that's an overly broad statement
12:43	Borkdude	it has become a standard expression, I first thought it referred to a "one on one class setting"
12:43	Borkdude	like private lessons
12:43	nDuff	Borkdude, 200- and 300-level classes typically refer to the year in which students are expected to take them -- at the university I attended, taking 300-level classes before one's second year required faculty permission
12:43	nDuff	(err, before or during)
12:44	Borkdude	nDuff: ah ok
12:44	Borkdude	duck1123: what is a broad statement, that it's a standard expression?
12:44	Borkdude	duck1123: I've seen it a lot lately, especially in the context of programming tutorials
12:46	nDuff	...been a while, though, such that I'm not sure of the extent to which my memory can be trusted.
12:46	Borkdude	ok, got that cleared up then
12:46	Borkdude	I read here in this book: "We learned in OO 101 that there are concrete classes"...
12:49	bhenry	anyone run into ie problems with clojurescript yet?
12:49	bhenry	s/anyone/anyone_else
12:51	Borkdude	bhenry: I haven't, but that's only because I didn't use it yet ;)
12:51	duck1123	users of IE deserve what they get
12:52	bhenry	duck1123: unfortunately driven by corporate policy : /
12:52	duck1123	stupid corporate policy...
12:54	bhenry	seriously
12:55	Borkdude	IE6 was the reason I quit doing anything with html, javascript or css for a few years
12:55	bhenry	clojure.browser.dom/log is using js/console and apparently that's undefined in ie.
12:55	bhenry	Borkdude: i hear that.
12:56	Borkdude	I'm still recovering
12:56	duck1123	does that undefined actually cause errors? or is it just an ignorable warning?
12:59	samaaron	cemerick: are you about?
12:59	cemerick	I am.
12:59	samaaron	cemerick: I wrote a TRULY HORRIBLE wav concat example in Overtone
13:00	bhenry	duck1123: it stops other things from working.
13:00	cemerick	heh
13:00	cemerick	samaaron: can't be that bad :-)
13:00	samaaron	cemerick: it worked though
13:00	cemerick	you also said overtone couldn't make music :-P
13:00	samaaron	cemerick: yeah, it's really bad :-)
13:01	cemerick	well, you beat me to it. I was going to take a look tomorrow.
13:01	cemerick	All of the docs are for wav -- is aiff not supported? Or does it really matter?
13:01	bhenry	if i change clojurescript source locally, do i have to run script/bootstrap again for those changes to take effect when compiling my cljs in projects?
13:01	samaaron	cemerick: https://gist.github.com/1373905
13:02	samaaron	cemerick: SuperCollider can read in a bunch of stuff - wav and aif are definitely supported
13:02	samaaron	this snippet will always output a wav file though
13:02	samaaron	regardless of what it reads in
13:02	wastrel	:[
13:03	cemerick	samaaron: surely that's not core's concat? From audio-file or live?
13:03	samaaron	cemerick: yep, that's core's concat
13:03	cemerick	you tricksy bastard ;-)
13:04	samaaron	I told you it was horrible ;-)
13:04	cemerick	so is it boxing each datum from the respective samples?
13:04	cemerick	must be!
13:04	hugod	samaaron: what do you use to generate your ascii-art?
13:05	fliebel	$mail drewr I did some email reading stuff. Not as part of Postal for now. https://github.com/pepijndevos/Wemail/blob/master/src/wemail/store.clj
13:05	lazybot	Message saved.
13:05	samaaron	I use SC to load up the source files, I then copy the normalised data across to Clojure-land through jna which comes as a Java float array, I then concat them and use JVM libs to spit out a wav file (which is currently horrendously inefficient)
13:05	samaaron	hugod: hey there, it was great meeting you at the conj
13:05	devn	samaaron: is there a way, given a sample, like for instance, say I record some guitar without a metronome and then I want to fit a midi drum track to the length of the sample
13:06	devn	is that possible programatically? I know it doesn't guarantee it will sound /good/, just curious how I might do that
13:06	samaaron	hugod: I was using some awful online image->ascii conversion site and then hand cleaning things in Emacs
13:06	cemerick	samaaron: that's OK, I can heat the house with my macbook instead of oil for a day… :-D
13:07	cemerick	samaaron: BTW, I need bumpers :-) Otherwise, I'm gonna use a one-line wobble. :-P
13:07	hugod	samaaron: likewise - it was a blast meeting you and everyone else
13:08	devn	wob wob wob, dubstep
13:08	samaaron	hugod: however I discovered this awesomely awful ascii art editor the other day
13:08	devn	samaaron: JavE?
13:08	zerokarmaleft	TheDraw!
13:09	Bronsa	EMACS
13:09	samaaron	devn: exactly!
13:09	devn	samaaron: Don't upgrade to lion!
13:09	devn	(if you're on OSX)
13:09	devn	Rosetta apps are canned in 10.7 :(
13:09	devn	Hence, no more JavE
13:09	samaaron	cemerick: bumpers are on tonight's todo list. Uni got me running round chasing admin chores today :-(
13:09	devn	JavE is the best I've seen
13:10	samaaron	devn: I got JavE working on lion
13:10	devn	! how!?
13:10	cemerick	samaaron: bummer; no worries in any case :-)
13:10	samaaron	devn: I don't quite understand your sample/midi question
13:10	clojurebot	tufflax: there was a question somewhere in there, the answer is no
13:11	devn	samaaron: I'd like a "phrase" of drums to expand to fit the length of a sample
13:11	samaaron	devn: It's totally possible to calculate the duration of a recorded sample in Overtone
13:12	devn	samaaron: I'll have to look into it more I guess -- I knew that was possible, I just didn't know if this was a normal thing to do or if I'm just bad at recording stuff :)
13:12	samaaron	devn: stretching the drums out (whether algorithmically generated or pre-recorded) would be trivial. However, correctly aligning them to the sample would be more tricky
13:12	samaaron	hugod: http://www.jave.de/
13:12	devn	samaaron: yeah, im starting to walk down that path -- I was thinking I could train it with my spacebar or something
13:13	samaaron	devn: there are basic ugens for beat detection if i remember correctly
13:13	hugod	samaaron: thanks - working nicely in lion here too
13:13	kephale	does anyone happen to know what the arguments to the constructor of java.nio.DoubleBuffer are? I can't find them for the life of me
13:13	devn	hugod: samaaron: are you guys just running the jar?
13:13	samaaron	hugod: the interface is ass - but I guess that's to be expected for an ascii-art editor ;-)
13:14	samaaron	devn: yep, I just double clicked it
13:14	devn	hmph, that's great -- the OSX version is no longer working, but if you just grab the jar it works
13:15	michael_campbell	all the doublebuffer ctors are package-private
13:15	samaaron	here's the result of an hour or so of futzing around with JavE: https://gist.github.com/2ee0b48436038208ee8a
13:16	michael_campbell	kephale: but the argsa are int mark, int pos, int lim, int cap, double[] hb, int offset
13:16	cemerick	shouldn't the UI for an ascii-art editor be build out of ascii?
13:16	michael_campbell	kephale: or: int mark, int pos, int lim, int cap which calls the other one with null and 0 for hb and offset
13:16	kephale	michael_campbell: thank you!
13:17	michael_campbell	kephale: my pleasure
13:17	samaaron	cemerick: btw, the audio concat code i gisted only works on edge Overtone - the edge version on my machine that is - i'll push in a moment
13:17	samaaron	cemerick: not if you find it useful to have rendered images in a lower layer to work with
13:18	cemerick	samaaron: that was mostly snark ;-)
13:18	cemerick	samaaron: OK, I'll see if I can interpose fade-in, fade-out transitions then
13:18	samaaron	cemerick: of course, Emacs has artist-mode
13:18	cemerick	of course! :-P
13:19	cemerick	Raynes: man, what did you do to rickasaurus?
13:19	devn	so I have JavE again -- of course the first logical thing to do is make a great clojure ascii art logo
13:19	samaaron	cemerick: now, fade-in, fade-out are in standard Overtone terratory. Although you'll be working in real time. We don't run SC in non-realtime mode (which would allow for fast audio rendering stuff like this)
13:20	cemerick	ah
13:20	samaaron	cemerick: remember, Overtone is about live production and manipulation of audio - not so much editing of actual audio
13:20	samaaron	devn: did you see my link?
13:22	samaaron	OK, I'm going to bike home - chat later
13:23	devn	samaaron: ha! I'm going to make one too :)
13:27	Raynes	cemerick: Dude. I don't know!
13:28	cemerick	Raynes: I know him fairly well, used to work 10 minutes from here. Super-nice guy, not sure what to say.
13:29	Raynes	cemerick: He went nuts last night. He tweeted about his desire to use redis, but that he was worried it wouldn't be able to handle the volume of data he wanted. I replied with "I'm sure it can handle the megabyte of data you keep under your pillow.".
13:29	cemerick	yeah, I thought that was in character :-)
13:29	Raynes	I guess I didn't realize it, but that was the most tasteless joke I've ever made or something.
13:29	Raynes	But that was it. I'm not sure what I did in the past that bothered him, but that was certainly what took him over the edge last night. :p
13:30	cemerick	I guess everyone has a bad day. shrug
13:30	Raynes	Indeed.
13:31	Vinzent	wait, array map doesn't guarrante the ordering of elems?
13:33	cemerick	it does; if it grows past its defined bounds and turns into a hashmap, then ordering becomes undefined.
13:36	drguildo	has anyone had any success with tools.cli?
13:36	Vinzent	then why it sorts the map? http://pastie.org/2879193
13:36	Raynes	drguildo: Lots of people. Go ahead and just ask your question. If anybody can answer it, they will. :)
13:36	drguildo	well, i basically can't get it to work
13:37	drguildo	i used the final example from the README
13:37	devn	https://gist.github.com/1374015 <-another clojure ASCII art logo :)
13:37	drguildo	but when i run it, passing -h to my program
13:38	Raynes	devn: https://github.com/Raynes/lein-newnew <-- Don't know if you saw this last night.
13:38	drguildo	the contents of command-line-args and options (from tools.cli/cli) are:
13:38	drguildo	(-h)
13:38	drguildo	{:help false, :faux bar}
13:38	Raynes	devn: It is backwards compatible with the old 'lein new' and shadows it, so install it and don't give me any lip about it.
13:39	drguildo	:help should totally be true
13:39	drguildo	yet it isn't
13:40	drguildo	http://pastie.org/2879215
13:40	Raynes	Strange. Might be a tools.cli bug. A lot of things were changed recently.
13:42	tsdh	When I create a namespace with stuff programatically by creating a form like (do (ns foo) (defn foo [x] x)) and evaling it, how can I use that namespace? I can do (in-ns 'foo), but (use 'foo) errors with file-not-found foo_init.class / foo.clj...
13:44	duck1123	tsdh: IIRC it's because clojure compiles the entire do form before running it, or some such.
13:45	TimMc	duck1123: I think that's a different thing.
13:45	tsdh	duck1123: The eval compiles it, doesn't it? And that works fine, and I can switch to the namespace. I just can't use it to make its vars accessible in the current namespace...
13:46	duck1123	You're probably going to hit no end of problems if you're trying to dynamically generate namespaces
13:48	tsdh	duck1123: Hm, but there's no other way when you have the information to generate new Vars only at runtime.
13:49	whidden	In Clojure 1.2.1 is there an upper limit to the number of promise an app can have?
13:49	TimMc	tsdh: Really? You need a whole new namespace?
13:50	devn	Raynes: cool
13:50	tsdh	duck1123: In my case, I define core.logic relations from some data structure. That data structure has a qualified name, so I thought it would be a good idea to define the relations in a new namespace corresponding to that qname.
13:51	devn	Raynes: i'm really interested in getting some default templates into lein for new users
13:52	devn	so you could "lein init" or something which would prompt you for testing framework of choice, web framework, etc. etc.
13:52	Raynes	devn: technomancy has not expressed interest in having templates beyond the three already included. Which is understandable, given that you can install templates just like Leiningen plugins.
13:52	Raynes	But we might be able to convince him of something like that.
13:53	Raynes	An interactive template would be very interesting.
13:54	Raynes	Even if it wasn't included in Leiningen itself, it'd be a good thing to do.
13:57	Vinzent	seriously, is there a reason why (first (array-map :b 1 :a 2)) returns [:b 1] (as expected), but (first {:b 1 :a 2}) returns [:a 2]?
13:58	apgwoz	only some maps guarantee order
13:58	apgwoz	maps created with {} do not
13:58	Raynes	&(doc sorted-map)
13:58	lazybot	⇒ "([& keyvals]); keyval => key val Returns a new sorted map with supplied mappings."
13:59	Vinzent	also, (read-string "{:b 1 :a 2}") return correct result, but after eval'ing the entries become swapped
13:59	Borkdude	Raynes: sorted here menas order preserving or really sorted and on what?
13:59	duck1123	Vinzent: also https://github.com/flatland/ordered
13:59	brehaut	sorted maps are sorted, they are not ordered
13:59	tsdh	TimMc: Do you have a better idea?
14:00	TimMc	&(sequential? {:a 1, :b 2}) ; Vinzent
14:00	lazybot	⇒ false
14:00	amalloy	Vinzent: maps make no guarantees at all about order, unless they're sorted. or, as duck1123 points out, ordered - but that's a data type that's not part of the core lib
14:00	tsdh	TimMc: Probably, I could write the code to a tmp file and then load that. Then, there would be a ns<->file association which use seems to require...
14:01	TimMc	tsdh: Not familiar with core.logic or what you're trying to do with it. :-/
14:01	brehaut	amalloy: hmm. joy of clojure advertises array-maps as an ordered map implementation.
14:01	TimMc	Vinzent: http://www.brainonfire.net/files/seqs-and-colls/collection-properties-venn.png
14:02	amalloy	brehaut: rip that page out of your book and set it afire
14:02	gfredericks	amalloy: I just got clojurebot to report that: monads is #=(str "super" "awesome")
14:02	brehaut	amalloy: i dont know how to do that to a pdf
14:02	amalloy	haha probably violates your DRM anyway
14:02	gfredericks	brehaut: print it and bind it first
14:02	TimMc	brehaut: It's easy, just use a sharpie on your screen.
14:02	tsdh	TimMc: It's not specific to core.logic. It's just that I have to create a bunch of vars dynamically that should not clobber ns.
14:03	brehaut	i dont think manning DRM their PDFs?
14:03	TimMc	tsdh: I guess I'm not sure why you want to create Vars in the first place.
14:03	Vinzent	Thanks you all for the links and explanations... That's too bad: I was hoping to use ^:metadata syntax to describe trasnformation of the args to my macro
14:04	tsdh	TimMc: That's where core.logic comes into play. (defrel male x) is a macro that expands into a def. So it's not under my control.
14:04	amalloy	whidden: just dont' run out of heap, that's about it
14:05	TimMc	tsdh: So it's actually at load-time?
14:05	hiredman	~shrimp
14:05	clojurebot	shrimp must be endofunctors
14:06	tsdh	TimMc: No, that there should be a relation male is information I get at runtime.
14:07	TimMc	yikes
14:08	michael_campbell	amalloy: At the beer/art thing, you had a mini-rant on the for comprehension. As a neophyte in this, can you explain to me where/when it should be used but isn't (and/or, shouldn't, but is?)
14:08	amalloy	$javadoc java.nio.DoubleBuffer ;; kephale - next time you get lost
14:08	lazybot	http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/nio/DoubleBuffer.html
14:09	TimMc	,((juxt sequential? associative? counted?) clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY)
14:09	michael_campbell	amalloy: the javadoc didn't include ctors
14:09	clojurebot	[true false true]
14:10	kephale	amalloy: ty
14:10	amalloy	then it doesn't have any constructors
14:10	kephale	yeah
14:10	whidden	amalloy: That's what I was hoping. Thanks for the reply.
14:10	amalloy	but it has static allocate methods
14:11	kephale	but i get a ctor error
14:11	amalloy	public static java.nio.DoubleBuffer java.nio.DoubleBuffer.wrap(double[],int,int)
14:11	kephale	when i inspect the bean i see that the constructors that michael_campbell mentioned at least match in type
14:13	amalloy	michael_campbell: i mean, i mostly use for anytime i need to walk over a sequence in which i don't have a prebuilt function to do it. like (map inc foo) - great. but (for [x foo] (* 2 (- x 10))) is way nicer than (map (fn [x] (* 2 (- x 10))) foo)
14:13	kephale	ah, i'll try the wrap. the lack of explanation about what the args are is causing some problems
14:13	amalloy	kephale: http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/nio/DoubleBuffer.html#wrap(double[], int, int)
14:13	Borkdude	Raynes: is there a preliminary preview of your book somewhere, if I dare ask? I'm looking for some easy introduction to Clojure for a class I'm giving next semester
14:14	Raynes	&(macroexpand (for [x [1 2]] (* 2 (- x 10))))
14:14	lazybot	⇒ (-18 -16)
14:14	Raynes	&(macroexpand '(for [x [1 2]] (* 2 (- x 10))))
14:14	lazybot	⇒ (let* [iter__4191__auto__ (clojure.core/fn iter__14790 [s__14791] (clojure.core/lazy-seq (clojure.core/loop [s__14791 s__14791] (clojure.core/when-let [s__14791 (clojure.core/seq s__14791)] (if (clojure.core/chunked-seq? s__14791) (clojure.core/let [c__4189__auto__... https://gist.github.com/1374112
14:14	Raynes	Borkdude: Nope. I'd happily throw you an early copy if there actually was a reasonable one to give.
14:14	amalloy	and it's especially valuable when you want to work with a nested structure, like transforming {:person {:name 'david :friends '[nancy mark]}} into a list of person/friend pairs
14:15	Iceland_jack	&(map #(- % 1) [1 2 3 4])
14:15	lazybot	⇒ (0 1 2 3)
14:15	Borkdude	Raynes: ok
14:15	brehaut	Raynes, Borkdude: i was hoping that the book was going to be entirely made up of macro expansions of core forms
14:15	Borkdude	brehaut: I already took those macro's as a no
14:16	Borkdude	brehaut: macroexpansions that is
14:16	kephale	amalloy: wrap FTY, ty again
14:16	Raynes	amalloy: I'm not sure I can agree that (map #(* 2 (- % 10)) foo) is less nice.
14:16	kephale	err FTW
14:16	Raynes	amalloy: I think it'd be better if 'for' printed incremental results, of course. ;)
14:16	michael_campbell	amalloy: I see. Thanks. Trying to get my head around some of when/why ... after I figure out "how" =)
14:17	amalloy	michael_campbell: consider how easy https://gist.github.com/1374123 is, for example
14:18	amalloy	Raynes: map is so much more limited there. for example you can't nest that inside some other #() expr
14:18	Raynes	amalloy: You gave me a limited example.
14:20	amalloy	my rule of thumb: use for unless you have a prebuilt map function, or can get one simply with comp/juxt/etc
14:20	michael_campbell	amalloy: I recall someone saying "nuts for juxt".... Raynes, maybe?
14:20	amalloy	yes, he called me nuts for juxt
14:20	Raynes	My rule of thumb: use map unless it is prohibitive or inconvenient to do so.
14:21	michael_campbell	Thanks both; I'm sure I'll develop my own sense of when, but looking for some "guardrails" to start with ;-)
14:21	amalloy	and avoid stuff like (reduce #(assoc %1 %2 (foo %2)) {} xs) - it's easier to write that as (into {} (for [x xs] [x (foo x)]))
14:21	broquaint	Feeling a bit slow - how might I treat a string as a collection e.g (contains? (sudo-make-me-a-seq "abc") \b)?
14:21	Borkdude	for has too much syntax ;-)
14:21	amalloy	~contains?
14:21	clojurebot	contains? is for checking whether a collection has a value for a given key. If you want to find out whether a value exists in a Collection (in linear time!), use clojure.core/some or the java method .contains
14:22	Raynes	contains? doesn't do what you think it does.
14:22	brehaut	Borkdude: how dare you disparage for!
14:22	Borkdude	contains? should be renamed
14:22	gfredericks	amalloy: "for example" <- pun intended?
14:22	Raynes	&(contains? [:a :b :c] :b)
14:22	lazybot	⇒ false
14:23	amalloy	hah
14:23	Raynes	broquaint: Try ##(some {\b} "abc")
14:23	amalloy	cough #{\b}
14:23	amalloy	or (.indexOf "abc" "b")
14:23	Raynes	Right.
14:23	Raynes	&(some #{\b} "abc")
14:23	lazybot	⇒ \b
14:23	Raynes	amalloy: Or maybe he can use for!
14:24	broquaint	Thanks, Raynes & amalloy!
14:24	michael_campbell	chuckle
14:24	Raynes	&(for [x "abc" :when (#{\b} x)] x)
14:24	lazybot	⇒ (\b)
14:24	Raynes	That's amalloy's preferred way of doing things, methinks.
14:24	amalloy	&(first (for [[idx char] (map-indexed list "abc") :when (= \b char)] idx))?
14:24	lazybot	⇒ 1
14:25	brehaut	Raynes: really? theres no juxt
14:25	Borkdude	amalloy: map-indexed isn't in core anymore right?
14:25	amalloy	yes it is
14:25	amalloy	&clojure-version
14:25	lazybot	⇒ {:major 1, :minor 3, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
14:25	Borkdude	amalloy: where
14:26	Raynes	clojure.core/map-index
14:26	Raynes	clojure.core/map-indexed
14:26	Raynes	My fingers are numb. :<
14:26	Borkdude	ah really, why did I think only keep-indexed was in core
14:26	amalloy	Borkdude: dude, why ask me? just ask lazybot
14:26	amalloy	&#'map-indexed
14:26	lazybot	⇒ #'clojure.core/map-indexed
14:26	Borkdude	ok, I don't know where I got that from then
14:26	amalloy	he's so helpful
14:26	amalloy	Borkdude: indexed was removed in (i think?) 1.2
14:27	Borkdude	amalloy: ah that's it
14:27	Borkdude	why actually, because you can do it with keep-indexed?
14:28	amalloy	map-indexed is more general and spends less memory
14:31	Borkdude	fair enough
14:41	nDuff	Any schedule on when videos from the conj will be available?
14:45	devn	Raynes: I disagree that forcing new users to clojure to get a special "make it easier for me" plugin is the right move
14:47	TimMc	&(doto "foo" print)
14:47	lazybot	⇒ foo"foo"
14:47	TimMc	&(doto "foo" #(print %))
14:47	lazybot	⇒ "foo"
14:47	TimMc	&(doto "foo" (#(print %)))
14:47	lazybot	⇒ foo"foo"
14:52	Raynes	devn: I don't necessarily disagree.
14:55	kzar	I have to keep a small amount of state in my web app, messages come in and sometimes they are in seperate parts so I have to assemble and decode them before storing. Running on Heroku and for now I've used a ref which works fine, messages are pretty small and generally all the parts come in at once so it's not a big deal. Problem is I figure if I scale up the web process parts of the messages might hit different proc
14:55	kzar	esses and I guess the ref wouldn't be accessible accross them all. Unless Heroku knows to root requests from the same client to the same server I'm going to need shared state, but using a database for such a small thing seems mad. What do you think I should do?
14:56	kzar	route*
14:57	gfredericks	erlang-map-reduce-storm-4j
14:59	technomancy	kzar: you pretty much have to treat your processes as disposable, so if there's any data that needs to stick around between requests, it needs to go somewhere durable
14:59	technomancy	(this is true of anything on EC2, not specific to heroku)
15:00	kzar	technomancy: Yea I mean luckily the way it is the parts come in at once and if the odd message gets dropped because the store got ditched half way through it doesn't matter
15:00	kzar	technomancy: But even so I figure I need a better store, but setting up Postgres or something for such a small thing seems mad
15:01	technomancy	well... "setting up postgres" is like a single command =)
15:01	technomancy	or redis, or couch, or whatever
15:02	technomancy	(sql/with-connection (System/getenv "DATABASE_URL") (sql/insert-record :stuffs {:data "Hello World"}))
15:02	TimMc	Can you queue the message pieces and then segment them such that all the parts of one message always go to the same process?
15:02	technomancy	schema creation is still not as streamlined as it could be unfortunately
15:02	TimMc	Never mind, just use a DB for now, worry about scaling that later.
15:07	brehaut	"<technomancy> well... "setting up postgres" is like a single command =)" holy crap
15:08	technomancy	brehaut: $ heroku addons:add shared-database
15:08	brehaut	technomancy: magic has been achieved
15:09	technomancy	any sufficiently advanced technology, &c.
15:20	gfredericks	technomancy: does this ring a bell? java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.KeywordLookupSite.<init>(ILclojure/lang/Keyword;)V at leiningen.util.paths$native_arch_path.<clinit>(paths.clj:32)
15:20	gfredericks	not holding me up or anything, but thought it was weird
15:20	technomancy	gfredericks: clojure 1.3 snuck onto your classpath?
15:20	gfredericks	hmm
15:20	gfredericks	for leiningen's execution you mean?
15:21	technomancy	right
15:21	gfredericks	huh. I wasn't doing anything funny, I don't think. okay, I won't worry about it.
15:21	gfredericks	thanks
15:21	duck1123	you need to find the dev dependency that's using 1.3, and exclude clojure from it
15:22	gfredericks	oh the dev dependencies get used by leiningen's process?
15:22	technomancy	aye
15:22	gfredericks	that makes sense, as I'm using clojure.java.jdbc for testing
15:23	gfredericks	now I'm confused as to why it hasn't been doing this the whole time
15:29	kzar	technomancy: Hey I was meaning to ask you, do you know anything about Heroku timing out when trying to launch your app?
15:30	technomancy	kzar: yeah, if you don't bind to a port in under 60 seconds it assumes there was a problem
15:30	kzar	Yea, I suppose I mean to say how to avoid the problem. I'm using Noir and a few libraries but my app isn't massive
15:31	kzar	I mean one app that times out sometimes is really tiny, it's basically noir a few libraries, one controller and a static html file
15:32	technomancy	it takes over 60s to bind the noir app to a port?
15:32	wilkes	dnolen: did you post the code from your clojurescript talk? I want to steal the extension that changes "[object Object]" to something useful.
15:35	kzar	technomancy: I guess so, just did a test on my laptop and it took about 27 seconds and part of that was Lein checking for updates for snapshot packages
15:35	Raynes	Evil things, those snapshot packages.
15:35	technomancy	kzar: dependencies should already be resolved at build time on heroku though, so it shouldn't affect process launch
15:36	dnolen	wilkes: you just need to extend IPrintable to the particular type you care about
15:36	dnolen	wilkes: https://gist.github.com/1362856#file_gistfile1.clj
15:37	wilkes	dnolen: thanks!
15:37	dnolen	wilkes: extend the type to IPrintable rather
15:40	ejackson	dnolen: took the cljs browser repl for my first spin today - WOW !
15:42	kzar	technomancy: Ah right, do you think Noir is especially slow?
15:42	technomancy	kzar: I don't think so. it may help to put ":checksum-deps true" in project.clj
15:43	duck1123	does that 60s include dep resolution an compiling?
15:44	dnolen	ejackson: pretty cool eh :)
15:44	ejackson	definitive.
15:45	technomancy	kzar: you had some trouble with BUILDPACK_URL, right? could you msg me the output of "heroku config -s" in your project?
15:46	ejackson	now just need to figure out what trickery cljs-watch is playing
15:48	kzar	technomancy: Trying that ":checksum-deps true" thing on the small project, tailing the logs now and it seems to just be downloading loads of stuff each time I do a `heroku restart`. First time I restarted it loaded second time it timed out
15:48	kzar	technomancy: buildpack problems was on the larger project, I'll message you config of both though 1 mo
15:49	technomancy	kzar: interesting, I will definitely take a look
15:49	technomancy	with :checksum-deps true it should only fetch on git push
15:49	zerokarmaleft	ejackson: my hangup was figuring out that cljs-watch's default output is resources/public/cljs/bootstrap.js
15:50	ejackson	zerokarmaleft: yeah, I've spotted that, now I just need to figure out where its stashed goog.* in its special jar file so I can include things.
15:51	goodieboy	could someone recommend a good, lightweight xml parsing library?
15:53	wink	lightweight? xml?
15:53	wink	well, jackson works. kind of
15:53	ejackson	zerokarmaleft: oh, perhaps I don't need to, seems its put just about everything into it.
15:53	ejackson	wink: what's that you say !!!!!!!!
15:53	ejackson	:P
15:53	gfredericks	ejackson: I guess he wants you to parse some xml?
15:54	duck1123	goodieboy: Do you need it to be-namespace aware?
15:54	zerokarmaleft	ejackson: yea, goog.dom.* afaict
15:54	kzar	technomancy: Thanks, arohner had this problem as well by the way
15:55	Raynes	ejackson: You know, you should talk at next year's Conj. You have an insane amount of energy.
15:55	goodieboy	duck1123: no actually
15:55	technomancy	kzar: interesting; I'll follow up with him
15:55	Raynes	I remember being super tired on like the second conference day and you were bouncing around like a pogo stick.
15:55	duck1123	clojure.xml and the zip filters are pretty easy if you don't need ns support
15:55	zerokarmaleft	ejackson + djspiewak = spontaneous combustion?
15:56	goodieboy	duck1123: great i'll have a look, thanks
15:56	ejackson	Raynes: Thanks dude.
15:57	Raynes	ejackson: At the very least, you should have sung something by Coldplay. You look a lot like Chris Martin.
15:57	ejackson	dear lord, the abuse I'm taking. First being mistaken for an XML parser, and now this...
15:58	kzar	I would rather be an XML parser than Chris Martin
16:00	ejackson	Raynes: I work alone, at home, so when I peep out into the real world, I tend to get a little excitable.
16:00	technomancy	ejackson: heh; I know how that is =)
16:01	duck1123	is it better to like Coldplay or XML?
16:01	brehaut	ejackson, technomancy: definately :)
16:01	TimMc	Coldplay.
16:01	TimMc	XML is inexcusable.
16:01	technomancy	but Coldplay's not extensible.
16:02	TimMc	I count that as a positive.
16:02	nDuff	...and XML has _namespaces_!
16:02	brehaut	nor is coldplay enterprise lisp
16:03	duck1123	I feel shame for having once written a website with an XML database, queried with XQuery, processed with XProc feeding into XSLT templates producing XForms
16:03	duck1123	far too many angled brackets
16:03	ejackson	technomancy: but Xoldplay is.
16:03	Raynes	https://github.com/fileability/self-ml
16:03	technomancy	ejackson: don't give anyone any ideas
16:04	Raynes	IIRC, self-ml is used for the Chocolat text editor's syntax files. Almost as hard to look at as XML.
16:04	brehaut	xoldplay: sounds like it should be an overtone project; markov chains based on coldplay songs to generate new xoldplay songs
16:05	Raynes	But I suppose that's because of the sheer volume of those syntax files.
16:06	Raynes	https://github.com/chocolat/clojure.truffle/blob/master/languages/Clojure/syntax.selfml
16:07	Raynes	I don't understand how you can write something like that by hand.
16:07	brehaut	unrelated: today is friday in the US right? where is the next mostly lazy
16:07	Raynes	Today is Thursday
16:07	hiredman	,(java.util.Date.)
16:08	clojurebot	#<Date Thu Nov 17 13:01:43 PST 2011>
16:08	brehaut	Raynes: line at a time
16:08	brehaut	rats
16:09	brehaut	Raynes: that is a serious grammer
16:21	TimMc	"written by humans and read by computers"
16:21	TimMc	I'd really like to have "read by humans" in there too...
16:22	brehaut	hah
16:22	TimMc	'cuz regex would fit that description as is
16:25	brehaut	TimMc: definately
16:25	brehaut	TimMc: on the other hand, not using regexps can be equally unreadable
16:26	TimMc	:-)
16:34	amalloy	Raynes: observe the comment to http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8167063/whats-the-best-way-to-handle-this-sequence-transformation-in-clojure/8167458#8167458 - in which i confess that map is way cooler than for in some cases
16:47	brehaut	im mucking about with my syntax highlighting rules some more; should the opening and closing symbols for maps, vectors and sets (and the empty list) should be styled as 'values' (using the same style as numbers and characters) or as something else?
16:48	brehaut	and how much do people care about rainbow parens?
16:52	technomancy	brehaut: I think they're an anti-pattern
16:52	technomancy	brehaut: the problem is that they make it easier to match up parens
16:54	cemerick	please no angry fruit salad
16:54	cemerick	says the guy with the IDE that uses rainbow parens :-P
16:54	brehaut	cemerick: even if i do support it, you'd have to include additional CSS for it to be visable
16:54	brehaut	technomancy: by anti pattern you mean that we shouldnt be caring about the parens anyway?
16:54	cemerick	you're certainly being comprehensive :-)
16:55	technomancy	brehaut: precisely. especially when reading, let indentation be your guide.
16:55	brehaut	technomancy: sure. ideally id like to do something where the form under the mouse was highlighted as need be, but im currently unsure if i can implement that
16:55	cemerick	I wonder if we can come up with a preprocessor to add in the parens based off of e.g. python-like indentation?
16:55	brehaut	cemerick: thats the plan :)
16:56	brehaut	cemerick: wait, the plan is related to comprehensive
16:56	cemerick	brehaut: yeah, I was trying to troll someone on sweet expressions or whatever they're called
16:57	brehaut	ah :) yeah, it doesnt sound like a very practical idea. i want less magic in my syntax, not more!
16:57	cemerick	my problem is that I'm incapable of trolling effectively because I can't hold a pose like that for long enough
16:57	brehaut	(caveat, i love haskell's layout rules)
16:58	brehaut	ive just changed my code to no longer care about rainbow parens, but it does annotate incorrectly matched closing tokens
16:58	Raynes	I don't love the fact that there are 16 different possible indentations for pretty much any point that you hit return in while editing Haskell.
17:00	brehaut	(which incidentally pulls me up on a few cases on my ring introduct. shame!)
17:59	ibdknox	quiet day
18:00	kephale	overall its been a quiet week
18:00	ibdknox	post conj recovery
18:00	brehaut	everyone is capitulating on the conj
18:01	ibdknox	yeah, I've been doing korma stuff
18:02	brehaut	ive been punishing myself with javascritp
18:02	Raynes	technomancy: So, does that mean that ibdknox and I are doing better than you since we designed and wrote the 'new' task for 2.0?
18:02	technomancy	Raynes: depends how much hammock time you put into it =)
18:02	ibdknox	technomancy: 5 man years
18:03	Raynes	technomancy: Well, precisely 1 day of work went into it, but ibdknox and I had had plenty of time to think about it since we had been working on Spawn recently. We knew what we wanted, I think.
18:03	technomancy	ibdknox: teach me the secrets of relativity
18:04	ibdknox	technomancy: we farmed a job out for hammock time to mechanical turk ;)
18:04	technomancy	couldn't have been cheap
18:05	Raynes	We wrote a lein plugin to give us hammock time transparently.
18:05	ibdknox	lein hammock
18:05	ibdknox	it's like lein trampoline, but more relaxing
18:06	amalloy	that's awesome. i should write a hammock fn for core
18:07	amalloy	(hammock some-thunk) ;; calls (some-thunk) forever until it gets a different result
18:07	ibdknox	(defn hammock [] (Thread/sleep (* 1000 60 30)) (println "Do you have an answer yet?"))
18:09	amalloy	ibdknox: make it turn off your monitor around the sleep call, and you're done, right?
18:09	ibdknox	basically
18:09	ibdknox	;)
18:09	amalloy	it should probably require you to answer y two times in a row, because the first answer is wrong anyway
18:09	ibdknox	lol
18:10	amalloy	"Do you have an answer?" "Yeah man let me type some stuff" "We'll see if you still feel that way in half an hour"
18:12	Raynes	ibdknox, technomancy: lein plugin install lein-hammock 0.1.0 && lein hammock
18:12	brehaut	,(apropos 'let)
18:12	clojurebot	(letfn let when-let if-let delete-file)
18:13	ibdknox	lol
18:13	ibdknox	Raynes: well done
18:16	Raynes	https://github.com/Raynes/lein-hammock
18:16	brehaut	lol
18:16	brehaut	that amazing
18:17	tensorpudding	what does it do?
18:17	ibdknox	Raynes: did you use something to generate the ascii?
18:17	Raynes	No, what is amazing is that I googled for 'ascii hammock' and got a relevant result.
18:17	ibdknox	wow
18:17	tensorpudding	heh
18:17	Raynes	http://ascii.co.uk/art/hammock
18:17	amalloy	(inc Raynes)
18:17	lazybot	⇒ 11
18:18	duck1123	you don't expect him to put a lot of work into something called lein-hammock
18:18	ibdknox	duck1123: why not? this is serious business.
18:18	Raynes	Indeed.
18:18	Raynes	ibdknox: Also, that plugin was created via 'lein new plugin lein-hammock'. All hail lein-newnew!
18:19	ibdknox	Raynes: I saw that :)
18:35	bbommarito	Evening all. I have a quick question: Can anyone explain juxt to me? The API is a bit terse and I am not quite groking it.
18:35	ibdknox	,((juxt inc dec) 1)
18:35	clojurebot	[2 0]
18:36	ipostelnik	,((juxt inc dec) [1 2])
18:36	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
18:36	ibdknox	bbommarito: it returns a function that takes in one value and returns a vector of the results of applying the given functions to it in order
18:36	kephale	,(map (juxt inc dec) [1 2])
18:36	clojurebot	([2 0] [3 1])
18:36	bbommarito	ibdknox: Okay, I was thinking that was what it was doing, but I wasn't sure from context. Basically, watching a Full Disclosure on FizzBuzz and was trying to understand it.
18:38	bbommarito	ibdknox: He was using ((apply juxt fb-list) 15) so the apply was confusing e.
18:38	bbommarito	me...wow m key is dying.
18:38	ibdknox	ah
18:38	ibdknox	yeah
18:38	ibdknox	that's creating the list of functions to apply dynamically
18:38	ibdknox	((apply juxt [inc dec]) 1)
18:39	ibdknox	,((apply juxt [inc dec]) 1)
18:39	clojurebot	[2 0]
18:39	ipostelnik	i think juxt is like map but for applying many functions to one value vs. applying one function to many values
18:40	bbommarito	ibdknox: I think that is what's confusing me. Looking at what you were evaling here, they both look to do the same thing (juxt vs apply juxt).
18:40	ibdknox	well
18:40	ibdknox	I couldn't do this
18:40	technomancy	ipostelnik: never thought of it that way, but it makes sense
18:40	ibdknox	,((juxt [inc dec]) 1)
18:40	clojurebot	[#<core$dec clojure.core$dec@a40b04>]
18:40	ibdknox	ipostelnik: sort of, except it returns a function as opposed to executing it
18:41	brehaut	chrome is trying to tell me that my brush will highlight all of clojure core in 1ms. that smells funny to me
18:41	ibdknox	brehaut: a bit.
18:41	brehaut	ibdknox: a lot! all of necessary-evil takes 10ms
18:41	ibdknox	haha
18:41	brehaut	core is a wee bit bigger
18:42	bbommarito	ibdknox: OH, I understand it now. Okay yea now it makes a bit of sense. You will have to forgive me, as I come from the land of C# and Ruby and Clojure is...well a bit different.
18:42	ibdknox	bbommarito: I used to work on C# :)
18:43	ibdknox	bbommarito: at MSFT
18:43	amalloy	~juxt
18:43	clojurebot	juxt is usually the right answer
18:43	amalloy	aw. i wanted the other one, clojurebot
18:43	ibdknox	amalloy: I was amazed you didn't vome into this sooner
18:43	ibdknox	come*
18:44	ibdknox	you're off your game ;)
18:44	amalloy	ibdknox: truly, i regret taking some time out of irc to do actual work
18:44	amalloy	how often does someone ASK about juxt
18:44	amalloy	usually you have to preach
18:44	ibdknox	hehe
18:44	lucian	it's a pretty useful function
18:44	ibdknox	it's very useful :)
18:45	lucian	"give me the results of these functions on this value"
18:45	bbommarito	Hey, I learn by reading source, and if I find something confusing, I ask:)
18:46	amalloy	~juxt
18:46	clojurebot	juxt is usually the right answer
18:46	amalloy	feh
18:46	bbommarito	OH, I also come from the land of Smalltalk.
18:47	lucian	that's a pretty nice land
18:47	amalloy	bbommarito: then perhaps you will like findfn?
18:47	amalloy	$findfn 1 2 4 7
18:47	lazybot	[clojure.core/bit-or clojure.core/bit-xor clojure.core/+ clojure.core/+']
18:47	amalloy	i understand y'all have something similar but better
18:48	bbommarito	amalloy: We do, but I don't think I have ever used it.
18:50	eanxgeek	I'm new to clojure and I'm trying to figure out the equal of foreach(), I'm enterin in at my repl (class (browser getAllLinks)) and I get back [Ljava.lang.String I'd like to the equal of a foreach link in (browser getAllLinks); do ..
18:50	brehaut	woo! core highlights :D
18:50	brehaut	(and heats up my mac doing so)
18:50	bbommarito	The thing that really bothered me in the land of Smalltalk is when Cincom took WebVelocity and made it paid only...
18:51	eanxgeek	what would the easiest approach be? I couldn't get doseq to work, probably bdu error
18:51	ibdknox	eanxgeek: (doseq) or (for ..) depending on what you want
18:51	brehaut	3.8 seconds to highlight all of core
18:52	ibdknox	brehaut: time to make it incremental ;)
18:52	brehaut	ibdknox: i wish i could!
18:52	eanxgeek	ibdknox: I'm probably looking at using link in another function, i.e. do click link
18:53	ibdknox	eanxgeek: (doseq [link (browser getAllLinks)] (click link))
18:54	eanxgeek	ibdknox: ah thanks sure enough I had my braces wrong.
18:59	emacsen	anyone seen Fogus?
18:59	bbommarito	Perhaps I need to sit down and watch all of the Clojure for Java Developers talk. Might help me a bit.
19:00	emacsen	bbommarito, what's your question?
19:01	bbommarito	emacsen: I got my question answered:)
19:01	bbommarito	Oh and thank you emacs for telling me I had an unbalanced paren...
19:05	brehaut	ibdknox: i think (because i cant easily profile this) that the majority of time for highlighting core isnt actually my parser, its the highlighter generating the html etc, so an incremental parser wouldnt help
19:05	Borkdude`	hmm
19:06	Borkdude`	my old self quit
19:10	bbommarito	I came across Clojure while hunting for a new language to work in. I am so burned out on Ruby that I can't even tolerate to work on it for personal projects, so I had heard about Clojure and started investigating.
19:12	ibdknox	brehaut: ah
19:13	emacsen	bbommarito, have you worked in any other "non-traditional" languages?
19:13	cemerick	Borkdude: Yup, I pulled it in. :-)
19:13	bbommarito	emacsen: I have played with Erlang for smaller things, messed with Haskell a little bit, until I hit Monads. IO as well.
19:14	Borkdude	cemerick: ah great
19:14	emacsen	bbommarito, okay, well I think you'll like Clojure then. It's like both, but without the same pain (it has its own of course)
19:14	bbommarito	emacsen: And, if you want to call them languages MUF (Multi-User Forth), and Moo (MUD Object Oriented)
19:15	bbommarito	emacsen: I think one thing I really appreciate about Clojure is: It's not OOP. Too often people try to shove everything into OOP, and more often than not, it makes no sense to do so.
19:15	emacsen	bbommarito, right. it's not OOP, but it has a lovely dispatch system
19:18	bbommarito	emacsen: And multimethods look interesting, though I haven't started to delve into them.
19:18	emacsen	multimethods are the dispatch system :)
19:19	emacsen	bbommarito, you don't /need/ to use either one though, of course
19:20	Borkdude	I really haven't needed multimethods, but maybe I'm missing out on something here
19:20	emacsen	Borkdude, nope. But it's there if you want it :)
19:23	Borkdude	I read in a survey that a lot of people come from Ruby to Clojure right?
19:24	technomancy	Borkdude: not appreciably more than from python, and less than from java
19:24	technomancy	but they tend to make more noise for some reason =)
19:25	Borkdude	Ah: http://bit.ly/sSfBzE
19:25	bbommarito	Borkdude: I could see that being the case since Ruby is...sort of functional and it's presumably a bit easier to understand Clojure. Plus, Clojure runs on the JVM which is /way/ more performant than MRI
19:26	bbommarito	Wow, only 5% from CL? That surprises me.
19:27	Borkdude	What surprises me is 3% Ada
19:27	Borkdude	Ada?
19:27	clojurebot	only when you've earned it
19:27	technomancy	Borkdude: probably a higher percent of "oops, accidentally clicked Ada" since it sorts at the top alphabetically. =)
19:28	Borkdude	Wasn't it just the first language in the list of options?
19:28	Borkdude	technomancy: right..
19:28	bbommarito	"I came to Clojure from QBasic"
19:29	bbommarito	2% from Scala. I looked into Scala, and I really can't see what the fuss is about.
19:29	Borkdude	No F#
19:30	bbommarito	Well, F# is a MS language, so if you are writing F#, you are doing so to stay in the .net world.
19:31	bbommarito	If someone was writing F# because they just loved the language, OCaml is very similar.
19:31	Borkdude	bbommarito: sometimes you're kind of forced into the .net world, at least I was in one compnay
19:31	Borkdude	bbommarito: then I started using F# to get some air
19:31	technomancy	F# doesn't have full inference though, does it?
19:32	technomancy	still have to declare args like scala?
19:32	Borkdude	full inference, like type inference? it has that
19:32	bbommarito	Borkdude: I wasn't forced into .net, and still don't mind .net. Though, I don't mind Java either.
19:32	technomancy	Borkdude: interesting. I was under the impression that it's impossible to implement in scala; I wonder why F# is different
19:32	Borkdude	bbommarito: before I came to .net I spend time in Common Lisp
19:32	technomancy	since they both have to interop with a strongly-OO host
19:33	hiredman	http://twitpic.com/6njqiz
19:33	Borkdude	technomancy: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd233180.aspx
19:34	brehaut	technomancy: as long as you stick with function, and non object records, F# can do full inference; when you cross over into classes it starts to fail
19:34	hiredman	as the only person here with an F# sticker on his laptop I demand to be heard
19:34	Borkdude	bbommarito: actually I started using Clojure because I was forced to Java
19:34	hiredman	I don't really have anything to say though
19:34	technomancy	Borkdude: that doesn't look like hindley-milner
19:35	bbommarito	hiredman: Why do you write F#? Is it to stay in .Net, or do you just like F#?
19:35	hiredman	I don't
19:35	hiredman	I have the sticker
19:35	bbommarito	Ah.
19:35	hiredman	I did a few euler problems
19:35	technomancy	brehaut: ok, interesting. I wonder why scala doesn't do that
19:36	hiredman	well, scala has way more of an oop focus
19:36	technomancy	I can buy the "static types are less trouble than they're worth" argument, but if you have to declare types for every single argument it's very clearly false.
19:36	Borkdude	technomancy: why not?
19:37	technomancy	Borkdude: never mind, I was just skimming.
19:39	Borkdude	What is the statys of ClojureCLR, are people actually using it?
19:40	Borkdude	If I knew it existed I could have tried it when I was bound to .NET
19:41	Borkdude	but that was in like 2007 or 08
19:41	bbommarito	So, my goal in learning Clojure is to learn enough to build a blog system (Yes, that old tired trend) in Compjure, Ring and Hiccup.
19:41	brehaut	technomancy: everyone should have a play with F#s units of measure type system at least once too. its pretty great
19:42	technomancy	brehaut: is it anything like frink?
19:42	amalloy	bbommarito: give ibdknox a chance to sell you on noir
19:42	Borkdude	brehaut: ah yes, that was just new when I used F#
19:42	Borkdude	brehaut: the newest cool thing
19:43	brehaut	technomancy: its less pervasive, but it ties in nicely with the rest of the type system
19:43	Borkdude	I even have the book Real world functional programming in F# and C#, and several other F# books
19:44	bbommarito	amalloy: I had not heard about noir.
19:44	ibdknox	bbommarito: yeah, you should definitely check out Noir: http://www.webnoir.org
19:44	ibdknox	bbommarito: it will make your life much easier
19:44	Borkdude	bbommarito: noir is great
19:44	Raynes	Noir is the bet.
19:45	Raynes	best*
19:45	tensorpudding	noir is pretty cool
19:45	Borkdude	I feel a survey coming.
19:45	ibdknox	better than ice cream even
19:45	tensorpudding	more fun than using compojure or ring directly
19:45	tensorpudding	better than ice cream sandwich?
19:45	ibdknox	tensorpudding: We should ask the guy who wrote it ;)
19:46	technomancy	ibdknox: did you get a chance to get rid of those nasty unqualified :use calls?
19:46	ibdknox	though I hear he's kind of an ass
19:46	tensorpudding	wrote what?
19:46	ibdknox	Noir
19:46	brehaut	some tool called chris granger i think
19:46	ibdknox	technomancy: yessir
19:46	tensorpudding	...that's you isn't it
19:46	technomancy	ibdknox: excellent
19:46	tensorpudding	i thought
19:46	technomancy	ibdknox: did you see the stuff about :require possibly deprecating :use?
19:46	bbommarito	ibdknox: He appears to be. I mean look at the Noir site, it's all minimalistic and hipster-ish.
19:46	ibdknox	technomancy: I'm all for it.
19:47	ibdknox	bbommarito: srsly. I take back the idea about asking him. Try to avoid him at all costs.
19:47	ibdknox	technomancy: it was always weird to me that those two notions were separated
19:47	technomancy	ibdknox: yeah, it confuses everyone
19:48	ibdknox	technomancy: I also want to do what hiredman was talking about (:require ..) vs (require ..)
19:48	ibdknox	that just doesn't make sense
19:48	technomancy	rich even said at dinner that he couldn't keep them straight in his head and goes to look it up every so often
19:48	ibdknox	technomancy: I've had to explain it to every person I've gotten to use Clojure
19:48	ibdknox	lol
19:48	hiredman	yes, someone start a separate thread about that on the ml
19:48	technomancy	the problem with (require ...) in the ns form is that the function form requires quoting
19:49	ibdknox	technomancy: make it an illusion
19:49	tensorpudding	the :require vs. require thing makes some sense
19:49	hiredman	ns can translate require into :require
19:49	technomancy	ibdknox: yeah, that's just to say I think you have to fix require at the repl at the same time as fixing :require in ns
19:49	ibdknox	technomancy: I don't care if it actually uses require, just that it looks the same :p Though, obviously that would be best
19:49	technomancy	otherwise it just shifts around the inconsistency
19:50	ibdknox	technomancy: I'll hide complexity from the user in the implementation any day ;)
19:50	Borkdude	and also, rename contains?
19:50	hiredman	so apparently rich wrote the ns macro, and at the time argued for keywords instead of symbols to "make it clearly declarative"
19:50	tensorpudding	why does the colon matter?
19:50	ibdknox	technomancy: but sure, I don't think require at the repl should need quoting
19:50	hiredman	so I'm not holding my breath on it changing
19:50	technomancy	Borkdude: whoa let's not get too crazy here
19:50	technomancy	Borkdude: actually contains? is part of rich's secret plan to trick people into thinking about big-o notation
19:51	brehaut	contains? has a long and proud tradition of confusing new users
19:51	Borkdude	technomancy: elaborate
19:51	technomancy	ibdknox: but that's a breaking change
19:51	ibdknox	technomancy: I'm sure there's a way to support both
19:52	technomancy	Borkdude: contains? forces you to be O(1) while clojure.core/some is O(n)
19:52	ibdknox	technomancy: the possible inputs to (require ..) are fairly limited
19:52	stevelew	heya
19:53	hiredman	ibdknox: the sane inputs
19:53	amalloy	hiredman: i don't understand why we're still talking about "making" ns support require vs :require. it already does that
19:53	hiredman	you can infact do stuff like (require ['foo :as 'bar])
19:53	Borkdude	technomancy: 'contains?' operates constant or logarithmic time
19:54	ibdknox	amalloy: that doesn't do anything bad?
19:54	ibdknox	amalloy: do you still need to quote it?
19:54	hiredman	amalloy: it may accidently, but it should explicitly treat it the same way as :require, and everyone should use that
19:55	amalloy	i agree it's probably an accident. i'm not really sold on making it the "right way"
19:55	amalloy	unless you can also retrofit the "not in ns" version
19:55	amalloy	ibdknox: try it, it just works. drop the : from all your ns decls
19:56	ibdknox	huh
19:56	hiredman	amalloy: so right now the confusion is quoting confusion and keyword confusion
19:56	hiredman	if you dropped the keyword bit you would just have quoting confusion
19:56	technomancy	Borkdude: right, the thing is that people use contains? on data structures that don't support constant-time lookup, the fact that this doesn't work forces people to think about the lookup characteristics when they otherwise wouldn't
19:56	amalloy	right. i think the keyword confusion is helping to combat the quoting confusion, though
19:57	hiredman	two kinds of confusion is always worse than one
19:57	stevelew	complected confusions
19:57	amalloy	at least this way when someone says "i'm doing (:use '[blah]) and it doesn't work", we can say "hey man you shouldn't be quoting there"
19:57	amalloy	if (use '[blah]) works in some contexts and not in others it's harder to figure out what the issue is
19:57	ibdknox	amalloy: I agree, a halfway solution is a bad one
19:58	ibdknox	there's value in figuring out a real solution though
19:58	gfredericks	you could totally switch things up and make ns more like a clojure function with opts -- so you just get one :use, one :require, and one :import
19:58	ibdknox	that being said, a big first step would be removing the use/require complexity as technomancy is suggesting
20:00	hiredman	possibly just write a ns2 macro and get it into core, so for backwards compat there is ns
20:00	Borkdude	technomancy: I think function names should be intuitive. contains? applied to a vector, my intuition is that it will check if some element is inside the vector. has-key? would have been a better name I think
20:01	ibdknox	Borkdude: I agree
20:01	TimMc	clojurebot: contains?
20:01	clojurebot	contains? is for checking whether a collection has a value for a given key. If you want to find out whether a value exists in a Collection (in linear time!), use the java method .contains
20:01	TimMc	clojurebot: contains?
20:01	clojurebot	contains? is for checking whether a collection has a value for a given key. If you want to find out whether a value exists in a Collection (in linear time!), use clojure.core/some or the java method .contains
20:01	tensorpudding	making the arguments to ns positional would be a pain
20:01	TimMc	Hrmf. I thought it had some snarky responses.
20:01	tensorpudding	it'd be less clear
20:02	ibdknox	positional?
20:02	tensorpudding	what gfredericks was suggesting, making use/require into arguments
20:02	ibdknox	they wouldn't be positional
20:02	tensorpudding	at least, what i interpreted it
20:02	ibdknox	they'd be named arguments
20:02	gfredericks	(ns2 :use [foo.bar bar.baz] :import [com.Thomas])
20:02	tensorpudding	okay
20:03	gfredericks	whoops forgot the name of the namespace :)
20:03	hiredman	:(
20:03	gfredericks	more like an implicit map is what I was thinking
20:03	tensorpudding	that'd be acceptable but i like the idea of removing the :use/:import/:require distinction somewhat
20:03	ibdknox	somewhat related, why is the guidance for Clojure libs to unpack options maps?
20:04	Borkdude	what about (ns2 {:use [x y] :importy [z]})
20:04	gfredericks	ibdknox: as opposed to explicit maps?
20:04	ibdknox	that makes composition much more difficult
20:04	ibdknox	gfredericks: yes
20:04	gfredericks	I agree
20:04	gfredericks	it feels macro-like
20:04	ibdknox	it's an anti-pattern in my mind
20:04	ibdknox	a very simple case is when using threading
20:05	TimMc	tensorpudding: Like this? (ns2 foo :use [net.cgrand.enlive-html/* org.timmc.chelydra])
20:05	hiredman	agreed
20:05	TimMc	where the first means use, the second means require
20:05	tensorpudding	that seems a bit pythonesque
20:05	ibdknox	(-> x (foo some-opts)) becomes (-> x #(apply foo % some-opts))
20:05	TimMc	tensorpudding: That's a compliment, then? I like Python's imports.
20:06	hiredman	but gfrederick's ns2 is a non-starter
20:06	tensorpudding	i like it okay
20:06	tensorpudding	python's explicitness is missing
20:06	technomancy	Borkdude: I didn't say I agreed. just that it's a cunning plan.
20:06	hiredman	mostly because of the way it makes using :use without :only easier
20:06	tensorpudding	from net.cgrand.enlive-html import * would be more expository and understandable to the newb
20:06	technomancy	has-key? is absolutely the clearest name for that function
20:07	Borkdude	technomancy: I think misnaming a function doesn't make people think about big-O ;)
20:07	hiredman	(ns2 :use [[foo.bar :only [foo]] [bar.baz :only [bar]]] :import [com.Thomas])
20:07	tensorpudding	but it's brief and once you know what it does it is readable
20:07	hiredman	yetch
20:07	hiredman	tensorpudding: no import * please
20:07	tensorpudding	no, i'm not saying put that into clojure
20:08	tensorpudding	just saying that it's very clear what it does
20:08	amalloy	only if you know what import and * do
20:08	tensorpudding	python people think that from foo import * is a bad idea anyway
20:08	amalloy	and what the names of all the functions in that package are
20:08	hiredman	(ns2 some.ns (use foo.bar :only [bar] foo.baz :only [baz]))
20:09	TimMc	Is there a Clojure Lint?
20:09	Borkdude	technomancy: is nil a value?
20:09	technomancy	Borkdude: sure?
20:09	TimMc	So... what's wrong with the current ns again?
20:10	TimMc	Borkdude: It's kind of second-class.
20:10	tensorpudding	why do .clj files use :require and :use in the ns definition instead of using explicit require and use
20:10	gfredericks	hiredman: could a generic approach to discouraging naked use's be to enforce asking for them? (:use foo.bar :all), e.g.?
20:11	Borkdude	if it wasn't then this shouldn't be true (contains? {:a nil} :a) by clojurebots definition
20:11	TimMc	I like that.
20:11	hiredman	gfredericks: it would be to go with technomancy's proposal
20:11	hiredman	and eventually get rid of use
20:12	tensorpudding	i dislike the idea of use
20:12	ibdknox	use is very useful at times
20:13	tensorpudding	well, it does cut down on the verbosity when you're using helpers from a package
20:13	hiredman	the main case is clojure.test
20:14	Borkdude	naked use is useful on the repl
20:14	duck1123	my test nses are the worst about naked uses
20:14	hiredman	yeah
20:14	TimMc	Hey, maybe if we had decent documentation, this would be less of a problem!
20:14	hiredman	generally you at least have a naked use for clojure.test and the ns being tested
20:15	TimMc	Or maybe I am being optimistic about people R'ing the FM.
20:15	amalloy	clojure.test could have a macro for doing naked-use
20:15	amalloy	and then you don't need it in the new-ns
20:15	hiredman	shrug
20:19	Borkdude	hmm you can even use nil as a key in a map
20:20	moogatronic	is there an emacs/slime command to execute an s-exp and put the results in the current buffer with a comment char in front?
20:21	scottj	moogatronic: ; C-u C-x C-e
20:22	moogatronic	scottj: awesome thanks. It doesn't auto comment, but it gets me the results!
20:23	amalloy	moogatronic: i think that's what the ; was for...
20:23	moogatronic	ah, my eyes.
20:23	moogatronic	and the size of the font in textual. =)
20:23	Borkdude	moogatronic: if you make your own elisp func you can call this slime func and do the comment after the slime func is done?
20:24	moogatronic	Borkdude: yeah, I just didn't know if there was a baked-in feature that did the ;=> type of comment, results thing that you see a lot in peoples examples on blogs / etc.
20:25	Borkdude	moogatronic: I usually type that in myself
20:25	hiredman	you can write some elisp and get it
20:27	Borkdude	I wrote my first serious elisp fns yesterday
20:27	Borkdude	it writes java files automatically for all classes listed in the buffer, compiles them and runs main :)
20:31	stevelew	that's cool
20:46	scottj	moogatronic: http://jaderholm.com/paste/eval-sexp-comment-result.html I tried to get it so you wouldn't have to C-u but couldn't. So it's C-u C-x C-E will give you ;=>result
21:06	Borkdude	scottj: replacing (slime-eval-last-expression) with (slime-eval-print-last-expression (slime-last-expression)) works better for me
21:09	rplevy	are the extensible reader plans mentioned in the keynote talk written up anywhere?
21:10	rplevy	I took notes, and then realized I didn't write down enough to remember what I saw
21:10	amalloy	rplevy: slides for most of the talks are up, so it's probably there
21:10	rplevy	that talk is not up
21:11	alex_baranosky	#=()
21:11	scottj	rplevy: rhickey does't like to release slides without video
21:12	rplevy	alex_baranosky: no, that's different
21:12	scottj	rplevy: if extensible reader has to do with recent discussion about datetime literals there's docs on that on dev wiki
21:12	rplevy	scottj: that's related, but there's a more general way of extending the reader proposed
21:13	amalloy	scottj: can't say i blame him given (for example) how nuts the twitterverse went over his "TDD hatred" from the strangeloop slides before the video came out
21:13	Borkdude	scottj: this is what I'm going to use
21:13	Borkdude	scottj: https://gist.github.com/1375329
21:13	Borkdude	scottj: tnx for the inital version ;)
21:13	scottj	amalloy: actually that's what I was basing it on, though I don't think he released his slides for strangeloop before the video
21:14	alex_baranosky	if you scour the clojure dev google group you may see the syntax mentioned there
21:14	alex_baranosky	people had strong reactions to that StrangeLoop talk
21:14	alex_baranosky	one way or the other
21:15	rplevy	so if my memory serves me, it almost seems like what is being planned approaches reader macros. The concrete implementation that the user-defined syntax gets coupled with-- is it an arbitrary function? and what is its input?
21:15	moogatronic	scottj: thanks for that elisp! (was eating dinner)
21:15	scottj	Borkdude: if you care about making it work with elisp just say so I have code to do that
21:15	scottj	working with elisp and slime that is
21:16	Borkdude	ah sure
21:18	alex_baranosky	rplevy: what do you think of the idea of colorizing Midje's command line output?
21:18	rplevy	alex_baranosky: I saw those slides. I think the exact quote was "Fuck TDD. Also, fuck Simon Peyton Jones."
21:19	alex_baranosky	rplevy: it seems like reader macros, yes, but a really limited scope.
21:19	alex_baranosky	rplevy: hehe
21:19	duck1123	colorized midje output would be cool
21:19	rplevy	alex_baranosky: what is the limitation exactly?
21:20	ibdknox	duck1123: https://github.com/ibdknox/colorize
21:20	duck1123	ibdknox: neat. I'll have to remember that if I ever have a use
21:21	alex_baranosky	rplevy: syntax is limited, right?
21:21	scottj	Borkdude: I take it back, the code didn't translate as directly as I thought
21:21	duck1123	I've been enjoying the effect of clj-stacktrace's pst+ lately
21:21	Borkdude	scottj: not a problem, I'll use it mostly for clojure anyway
21:21	alex_baranosky	duck1123: thanks, there's a namespace in lazytest as well; I'll have to steal the best bits
21:22	rplevy	I'm doing a report-back on the conj for the rest of the team that didn't go. I don't want to misrepresent it because when I say it will sound identical to reader macros, but I fairly certain this is less than that.
21:22	Borkdude	(+ 1 2 3)
21:22	Borkdude	;=>6 <-- this is elisp in action :)
21:22	Borkdude
21:22	clojurebot	suffusion of yellow
21:22	alex_baranosky	~yodel
21:22	clojurebot	excusez-moi
21:22	alex_baranosky	~yeah!
21:22	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
21:22	rplevy	did clojurebot acheive sentience?
21:23	scgilardi	long ago
21:23	scottj	duck1123: what's sad is clj-stacktrace would probably have been builtin had rich known about it when he changed 1.3's stacktraces
21:23	alex_baranosky	~shrimp
21:23	clojurebot	shrimp must be functors that map a category to itself.
21:23	duck1123	is anyone out there using Midje with lazytest? I started with lazytest, but then I switched to midje because it had better support for "around" fixtures
21:23	hiredman	I added some inference stuff to clojurebot in the last few days, still tinkering with it
21:23	rplevy	hiredman: hehe
21:24	alex_baranosky	duck1123L: funny you ask that; just tonight I was thinking about planning to figure out how to add auto.lazy powers to Midje
21:25	scottj	ibdknox: no bold in colorize?
21:25	alex_baranosky	but maybe I don't have to? Can Midje be simply composed with lazytest without needing any special purpose code?
21:25	ibdknox	scottj: I forgot to add those
21:25	ibdknox	scottj: I'll fix that tonight
21:25	rplevy	cemerick: do you know what the difference is between the new extended reader idea and full reader macro support? when the concrete implementation of a user-defined reader syntax is added, is it a function, and what is its input (character stream?, an s-expression form?)
21:26	alex_baranosky	scottj: more options here: https://github.com/stuartsierra/lazytest/blob/master/modules/lazytest/src/main/clojure/lazytest/color.clj
21:26	duck1123	It might be. I fear that the way lazytest generates the test functions might interfere with midje's backgrounds
21:26	hiredman	rplevy: I think in rich's mind a big difference is you can namespace tags
21:26	scottj	ibdknox: also I don't know about console colors or colorize but maybe (inverse (blue "foo"))
21:26	alex_baranosky	hey ibdknox: want to add all the options from the lazytest link? Seems best to have one community colorize library... I can submit patch if you don't want to
21:27	scottj	alex_baranosky: ahh cool
21:27	duck1123	scottj: trampoline with inverse to blink?
21:27	ibdknox	lol
21:27	ibdknox	alex_baranosky: sure
21:27	rplevy	hiredman: that is important, and makes sense
21:30	cemerick	rplevy: the data involved remains Clojure data literals, and the extended literals should nest and compose just like "regular" literals do today
21:30	cemerick	composition policies of reader macros is (AFAIK) left entirely up to the macro implementations themselves
21:31	cemerick	cooperative vs. preemptive multitasking, applied to reader policy and literal composition :-P
21:32	rplevy	cemerick: ok, great, that seems only slightly less powerful than user-defined reader macros. Not possible to add support for a string without escaping quotes for example.
21:32	cemerick	right
21:32	cemerick	you can define reader macros today anyway, if you're willing to go black hat :-P
21:33	cemerick	and be stoned in public, perhaps
21:33	rplevy	patch the clojure source, yup :)
21:33	cemerick	nah, at runtime
21:33	rplevy	oh
21:34	duck1123	probably still stoned in public
21:34	cemerick	doubly so, actually
21:40	scottj	I have a reader macro to do member access, #.foo:bar is (or (:bar foo) (get foo "bar"))
21:47	amalloy	i...you...what. scottj, that is terrible
21:48	scottj	amalloy: I know, I actually never use it :)
21:48	amalloy	haha k. i won't preach then
21:48	scottj	but I do think symbol syntax for lookup would be nice
21:48	hiredman	it's coming
21:48	amalloy	i don't know what "symbol syntax for lookup" means
21:49	scottj	foo:bar
21:49	hiredman	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-872
21:49	hiredman	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-89
21:49	scottj	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiaYxaONChg
21:49	scottj	at the end I show symbol syntax for lookup working in clojure
21:50	hiredman	horrible
21:50	amalloy	scottj: only works when both foo and bar are symbols. seems like pretty limited utility
21:50	amalloy	you can't, like foo:(inc bar)
21:50	scottj	it is limited, but it's a pretty common use case still
21:51	zerokarmaleft	scottj: oh man, i was wondering who did these crack videos
21:51	scottj	zerokarmaleft: guilty
21:52	zerokarmaleft	scottj: not complaining really, a lot of screencasts tend to drag
21:56	scottj	hiredman: I don't think any of those do the lookup I was talking about that doesn't require parnes
21:56	scottj	parens
21:57	cemerick	scottj: did you do a custom build, or the runtime reader hack?
21:57	scottj	cemerick: in the video custom build, but I've also implemented the same thing as a runtime reader
21:57	scottj	custom build is naturally better because you don't have to prefix with #.
21:58	scottj	s/naturally better/some description rhickey wouldn't object to/
21:58	scottj	shorter :)
21:58	cemerick	heh, right
21:59	scottj	I showed it to rhickey at the first conj and he hated it :)
21:59	cemerick	oh, I'm sure :-)
21:59	cemerick	these things happen
22:09	TimMc	cemerick: That flowchart is far too convoluted.
22:10	cemerick	TimMc: I agree.
22:10	rplevy	I'm curious to investigate this runtime reader hack, but then I might actually use it sometime, so it's better I not know the details, haha.
22:10	TimMc	cemerick: I only just realized that the "Interop zone
22:11	TimMc	" leaks, in the lower left.
22:11	cemerick	yup
22:24	TimMc	I see.
22:24	TimMc	Your publisher won't mind putting it on a centerfold, right?
22:27	cemerick	hah
22:27	cemerick	:-)
22:46	jodaro	http://code.google.com/p/clojure-cxx/
22:46	TimMc	lolwut
22:47	jodaro	yeah
22:47	jodaro	its amazing what the googles find for you
22:51	tensorpudding	qt?
22:52	tensorpudding	not a very busy project
22:52	jodaro	yeah
22:52	hiredman	well, google code
22:53	tensorpudding	google code isn't bad
22:53	tensorpudding	i contributed to projects hosted there
22:53	tensorpudding	they had the good sense to not use svn though
22:53	jodaro	yeah i used it before github
22:55	tensorpudding	no readme, no docs, no boilerplate
22:55	tensorpudding	it must not be far along yet
23:04	jodaro	wow
23:05	jodaro	you can suck a project right out of an svn repo when you create it on github
23:05	jodaro	keeps dates and commit messages intact
23:14	sritchie	hey guys, are protocols defined with defprotocol accessible from java?
23:14	cemerick	sure
23:14	hiredman	it sort of depends
23:14	cemerick	the compile down to interfaces, which you can implement
23:14	hiredman	but defprotocol generates an interface, and defrecords with the protocol inline will implement the interface
23:14	sritchie	So with aot compilation, I can import a protocol as an interface
23:15	cemerick	right
23:15	sritchie	sure, I'm just looking to create an interface for other java classes to implement if they like
23:15	sritchie	and wondering if the way to do that is to aot-compile the namespace containing the protocol
23:15	hiredman	there is also a definterface
23:15	hiredman	where you can specify argument types, etc
23:17	sritchie	okay, that's good to know about
23:18	sritchie	the docs from defprotocol state that it "has no special compile-time effect"
23:19	hiredman	shrug
23:19	sritchie	I guess I'll try it, or go with definterface
23:20	hiredman	http://clojure.org/protocols
23:21	sritchie	yeah, this looks good: "A Java client looking to participate in the protocol can do so most efficiently by implementing the protocol-generated interface"
23:21	sritchie	I'm just having trouble tracking down an example
23:21	sritchie	of the clojure-> java route, that is; java->clojure is clear and wonderful
23:26	hiredman	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2009-10-13.html#12:02
23:26	hiredman	3 years ago
23:28	cemerick	hiredman: 2 years, just 2!
23:29	hiredman	lets see
23:29	hiredman	(- 2011 2009)
23:29	clojurebot	2
23:29	hiredman	I see
23:33	sritchie	thanks, reading through now
23:33	Raynes	cemerick: Grandpa.
23:33	cemerick	Get off my lawn!!!11!!1!
23:37	tensorpudding	does clojurebot parse everything that starts with ( as a clojure statement
23:38	tensorpudding	(hmm)
23:38	hiredman	no
23:38	hiredman	just math
23:38	hiredman	(+ 5 4)
23:38	clojurebot	suffusion of yellow
23:38	tensorpudding	(- (* 2 3) 4)
23:38	hiredman	(* 2 1)
23:38	clojurebot	2
23:38	tensorpudding	not very clever
23:38	tensorpudding	,(- (* 2 3) 4)
23:38	clojurebot	2
23:39	hiredman	2d64+24
23:39	clojurebot	83
23:39	tensorpudding	2d64
23:39	clojurebot	20
23:39	Raynes	cemerick: I heard that you are going to switch to Leiningen for your projects.
23:39	tensorpudding	oh, that's random?
23:39	tensorpudding	thought it was some fancy radix magic for a moment
23:39	cemerick	Raynes: once the right pieces are in place, yes
23:40	hiredman	it's dice
23:40	tensorpudding	there's an alternative to lein?
23:40	Raynes	cemerick: Uh… Dude, we already have lein-hammock. What more can you possibly need?
23:40	cemerick	:-)
23:40	tensorpudding	i heard of cake
23:40	cemerick	not much of a hammock person, perhaps
23:41	tensorpudding	but only when i heard that it was going to get merged with lein
23:41	cemerick	tensorpudding: maven, ant, gradle, rake, buildr…various options
23:41	cemerick	bash FTW
23:43	tensorpudding	i didn't think maven was as easy to use
23:43	tensorpudding	and ant...that's java junk
23:43	Raynes	"Java junk" mostly applies to Clojure as well.
23:43	tensorpudding	i should have said, xml junk
23:43	Raynes	And maven is arguably not as easy to use, but that doesn't stop people from using it. Leiningen uses maven for dependency management.
23:44	hiredman	no xml in maven
23:44	tensorpudding	i meant ant
23:44	tensorpudding	maven seems sane enough
23:44	cemerick	no build tool is sane
23:44	tensorpudding	i've never heard of gradle and i'm pretty sure rake is from ruby
23:45	klauern	gradle is ant with Groovy instead of XML
23:45	klauern	or at least how I see it
23:45	tensorpudding	lein is the simplest project tool i've seen in a while
23:45	cemerick	I assure you, it's not simple.
23:46	cemerick	Much more pleasant learning curve, certainly.
23:46	tensorpudding	where's the complication?
23:47	klauern	http proxies, mirror/proxy maven repos, dependency / dev-dep duplication,
23:47	tensorpudding	proxies?
23:48	tensorpudding	wouldn't any tool doing dependency fetching have to deal with that?
23:49	klauern	you'd think so, but so many people don't have to worry about them that it doesn't get implemented right away
23:49	tensorpudding	i meant more of
23:49	tensorpudding	what tools get that right?
23:49	klauern	I had problems with Ruby doing it right up until about a year ago
23:50	klauern	It's an enterprise-level feature, so I would guess it's just not high priority unless you work in one
23:50	klauern	I run into it all the time, so half of my tickets for projects are "add http proxy support" or something to that effect
23:50	tensorpudding	why is http proxying enterprise?
23:50	tensorpudding	i thought http proxying was to get around firewalls
23:50	tensorpudding	and for caching performance blah blah blah
23:51	klauern	yeah, but I don't have one at home, and I don't know many startups that even worry about that kind of thing
23:51	hiredman	no, it's for keeping on eye on employees
23:51	hiredman	an
23:51	klauern	I see it as something corporations make sure they have checked on some form so they can claim "strong" security standards
23:52	tensorpudding	bleh
23:53	klauern	I tend to think that if a tool can support all that bloated enterprisey stuff, they gain a large number of dabblers that can test and patch code
23:54	klauern	I know I wouldn't be contributing much if I couldn't run Leiningen behind a proxy for 80% of my workflow
23:54	klauern	not that I'm patching code, but I'm definitely dabbling