#clojure – 2011-11-18

2011-11-18

01:23	archaic	i just spent ages figuring out that i needed dollar signs to get at a java enum i.e Renderer$VertexLabel$Position/AUTO is this kind of interop documented anywhere?
01:23	amalloy	archaic: that's the class's name in the jvm, for real
01:24	amalloy	as specified in the java language specification
01:24	archaic	ahh k . i have never used java before
01:24	amalloy	it's nothing to do with enums in fact
01:24	amalloy	it's just that Position is an enum class nested inside two other classes, and it "inherits" the name
01:25	amalloy	and that's just The Way It Is
01:25	archaic	kinda like underscores for hyphens :)
01:30	amalloy	well, except that's clj-specific. doesn't have to be that way
01:41	keith_	in clojurescript, is there a special form that emits foo["bar"]
01:42	keith_	assuming foo is a regular javascript object
01:42	amalloy	aget
01:43	hiredman	(.bar foo)
01:43	keith_	hiredman: won't that get munged?
01:43	hiredman	depends on information you've not divulged
01:43	keith_	with advanced optimizations
01:44	hiredman	it still depends
01:44	hiredman	is foo some global object?
01:44	keith_	no it's a local variable
01:44	hiredman	then everything will get munged as it should
01:44	hiredman	and not as it shouldn't
03:13	daaku	how would one model an operation that involves mapping over a tree recursively & modifying it, while aggregating some information from the nodes and maintaining that thru the entire iteration? would it essentially be like reduce? or is there some better pattern i could use as a reference?
03:21	amalloy	if you need aggregated data, some kind of reduce will likely be needed at some point. but you map be able to use map (or for) for sub-operations, or possibly use a zipper or tree-seq for the walking part
03:47	Raynes	amalloy: He map be able to use map? Sure sign of sleep deprivation.
03:47	amalloy	map map map
03:47	Raynes	Pacman!
04:37	Borkdude	What is the best Common Lisp environment on OSX? (subjective, I know)
04:37	Borkdude	(that's why I wont post it on StackOverflow...)
04:39	Borkdude	Clozure CL maybe?
04:45	bbommarito	Borkdude: LispWorks is a pretty nice one from what I have heard.
04:50	bbommarito	Buddy who works for GS loves Lispworks.
04:52	gko	He uses LW in GS for work?
04:52	bbommarito	No, they use some weird Lisp, but he himself enjoys LW and uses it for personal projects.
04:53	bbommarito	And, since he is such a huge lover of lisp (His license plate is CARCDR for crying out loud), I am assuming LW is a pretty decent lisp.
04:53	Borkdude	bbommarito: ah tnx
04:53	gko	The IDE is nice.
05:07	Borkdude	Actually I just want to use it from emacs
05:07	Borkdude	to run some code from PAIP
05:08	Borkdude	so simple is good here
05:08	Borkdude	it should be easy to get a swank server running
05:10	Borkdude	ah I read here that that is also easy with lispworks
08:23	clgv	can multimethods be overloaded?
08:32	raek	clgv: in what way? varying number of arguments? default arguments?
08:33	clgv	raek: varying number of arguments. in the source it's directing the implementation to 'fn so that should be possible
08:34	raek	yes. just make sure that both the dispatch function and the methods can receive varying number of arguments
08:35	clgv	raek: I did. The tests worked well.
08:36	Chousuke	yeah it should work just fine
09:38	Borkdude	Raynes: I'm trying out lein findn
09:39	Borkdude	Raynes: after I installed it and try it, it says it can't find findfn/core.clj
09:40	Borkdude	Raynes: should I include it in a project or smth? I expected it to "just work"
09:40	Borkdude	Raynes: I wondered if you could use findfn to solve this question on SO: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8182956/standard-version-or-idiomatic-use-of-fn-f-args-apply-f-args
09:56	Sindikat	hello! how can i launch a Clojure subprocess besides using leiningen? (i am emacs user)
10:02	kephale	you'd really be best off with lein + swank-clojure
10:05	Borkdude	Raynes: strange, if I just use findfn in a project, it can't find the function find-fn either
10:05	kephale	Sindikat: err.. probably should have tagged your handle. then use slime, there is also clojure-jack-in, but i've never used that
10:06	raek	Sindikat: this is the most common way: http://technomancy.us/149
10:07	raek	you have to install clojure-mode in emacs and the swank-clojure leiningen plugin.
10:07	Borkdude	Raynes: ah wait, now it's working inside a project
10:07	Sindikat	raek: yeah, i already read through swank-clojure readme, thanks! currently i'm just playing with clojure-repl
10:08	Borkdude	Raynes: the lein plugin isn't working yet, maybe I should update lein?
10:12	Borkdude	Raynes: ah upgrading to 1.6.2 and then re-installing the plugin worked
10:16	TimMc	$findfn 1 [clojure.core/* clojure.core/*']
10:16	lazybot	[]
10:16	TimMc	:-P
10:21	Borkdude	Should find-arg be able to find out what % should be? (find-arg [2 3 4] (map '% [2 3 4]))
10:23	Borkdude	Ah, should call it like this: (find-arg [2 3 4] map '% [2 3 4])
10:23	Borkdude	syntax...
10:24	TimMc	sin tacks
10:28	Borkdude	hmm... (find-arg [-1 6 27] map '% [- + *] [1 2 3] [1 2 3] [1 2 3]) ;=> (clojure.core/trampoline)
10:28	Borkdude
10:29	bhenry	(map trampoline [- + *] [1 2 3] [1 2 3] [1 2 3])
10:29	bhenry	,(map trampoline [- + *] [1 2 3] [1 2 3] [1 2 3])
10:29	clojurebot	(-1 6 27)
10:29	bhenry	noice
10:29	TimMc	Wow, so you can use trampoline as a "call" fn.
10:30	clgv	,(doc trampoline)
10:30	clojurebot	"([f] [f & args]); trampoline can be used to convert algorithms requiring mutual recursion without stack consumption. Calls f with supplied args, if any. If f returns a fn, calls that fn with no arguments, and continues to repeat, until the return value is not a fn, then returns that non-fn value. Note that if you want to return a fn as a final value, you must wrap it in some data structure and un...
10:30	clgv	a function^^
10:32	TimMc	$findarg (some % [nil 2 true false]) 2
10:32	lazybot	[]
10:32	Borkdude	Every element will be like: (trampoline - 1 1 1), (trampoline + 2 2 2), (trampoline * 3 3 3). Pretty useless but it works :)
10:32	TimMc	$findarg some % [nil 2 true false] 2
10:32	lazybot	[clojure.set/union clojure.set/intersection clojure.set/difference clojure.core/+ clojure.core/* clojure.core/+' clojure.core/macroexpand-1 clojure.core/comp clojure.core/rationalize clojure.core/macroexpand clojure.core/*' clojure.core/max clojure.core/identity cl... https://gist.github.com/1376743
10:33	TimMc	really?
10:34	TimMc	,(map (juxt dissoc macroexpand comp +) [2 nil true false])
10:34	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.ClassCastException>
10:34	TimMc	,(map (juxt dissoc macroexpand comp +) [2 nil])
10:34	clojurebot	([2 2 2 2] [nil nil nil nil])
10:35	clgv	$findarg some '% [nil 2 true false] 2
10:35	lazybot	[]
10:35	TimMc	clgv: no quoting % in lazybot's findarg
10:35	clgv	oh ok
10:36	clgv	$findarg % 2 2 4
10:36	TimMc	Don't know why, come to think of it.
10:36	lazybot	[clojure.core/unchecked-multiply clojure.core/+ clojure.core/* clojure.core/unchecked-add clojure.core/+' clojure.core/unchecked-multiply-int clojure.core/*' clojure.core/unchecked-add-int]
10:36	clgv	$findarg '% 2 2 4
10:36	melipone	can I do destructuring in clojure just like in Lisp where a function can return more than one value?
10:36	lazybot	[]
10:37	jcromartie	melipone: yes
10:38	TimMc	&(let [[a b] ((juxt + *) 2 3)] (str a " and " b))
10:38	lazybot	⇒ "5 and 6"
10:39	TimMc	melipone: ^ destructuring in a let binding
10:41	Borkdude	$findarg map (% - + *) [1 2 3] [1 2 3] [1 2 3] [-1 6 27]
10:41	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: Symbol
10:41	Borkdude	room for improvement
10:41	jcromartie	melipone: read about let here http://clojure.org/special_forms
10:44	TimMc	Borkdude: Not quite... you're asking for the result of evaluating ('% - + *)
10:44	TimMc	melipone: Long story short, return a map or vector of the return values.
10:46	TimMc	$findarg ((constantly 4) %) 4
10:46	lazybot	[]
10:46	TimMc	$findarg (constantly 4) % 4
10:46	lazybot	[]
10:47	TimMc	I don't know why that didn't work.
10:47	Borkdude	timmc I'm asking for %
10:47	TimMc	hrm, right
10:47	TimMc	Sorry, brain fart.
10:49	TimMc	Anyway, I don't think there's a function that does that.
10:54	dfilimon	hi! i'm looking for a version of map catered to functions with side-effects
10:54	dfilimon	so, i'm drawing a seq of shapes using map
10:54	dfilimon	but i don't want to get a seq of nils back
10:54	dfilimon	i just want one nil
10:55	clgv	dfilimon: you can use 'doseq
10:56	dfilimon	seems to be like what i need
10:56	dfilimon	will try
10:56	dfilimon	thanks!
10:58	dfilimon	clgv: yup, that works! thanks!
11:33	TimMc	Ugh, I'm having problems with Enlive.
11:34	TimMc	There's no clear distinction between fns that operate on nodes now vs. return a closure to do it later, and no distinction between fns that operate on seqs of nodes vs. single nodes.
11:38	clgv	Is there any implementation of accessing a File via a BlockingQueue in Clojure?
11:52	clgv	guess I have to implement a producer+consumer scenario for that one myself
12:01	cemerick	samaaron: I don't think that's going to work :-P
12:02	cemerick	Can I get you to dump the files into the subdirectory here? https://github.com/cemerick/mostly-lazy
12:25	devn	I wish clojure/conj was every 3 months.
12:26	devn	So many new things to toy with, so many upgraded libraries, so many discussions about what to do next.
12:37	cemerick	devn: not long 'til clojure west :-)
13:01	TimMc	I missed the Conj. :-(
13:02	TimMc	I didn't think registration would fill up that wuickly.
13:02	TimMc	*quickly
13:34	alexbaranosky	~shrimp
13:34	clojurebot	shrimp must be http://www.bolour.com/papers/monads-through-pictures.html
13:40	michael_campbell	It lasted through the entire early bird time.
13:40	michael_campbell	but just
13:46	jweiss	how hard is it to run my own clojurebot? is this the place to go? https://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot
13:47	hiredman	I run clojurebot via java -jar clojurebot.jar some-config.clj
13:47	hiredman	I run 2 instances and I don't know of any others
13:49	hiredman	the one I run for work does things like running builds and spaming the channel with open pull requests
13:49	jweiss	hiredman: i'm just looking for the eval functionality - teaching coworkers on our internal irc
13:49	jweiss	hm, lein deps failed - org.clojars.thnetos:opennlp:jar:0.0.3
13:50	hiredman	interesting, maybe thats no longer on clojars, but I still have it in my m2
13:51	jweiss	also conduit-xmpp:conduit-xmpp:jar:1.0.0-SNAPSHOT
13:51	jweiss	if i'm reading this output correctly
13:51	hiredman	that really shouldn't be required
13:52	jweiss	hiredman, can you push opennlp, or tell me where to find it?
13:53	hiredman	it's someone elses library, they must have moved it
13:56	drewr	perhaps dakrone can be of assistance
13:57	hiredman	jweiss: pull and try again
13:58	hiredman	the new opennlp bits don't work exactly, but the build and irc+eval should work fine
13:58	hiredman	I don't have time to fix the opennlp stuff right now
13:58	jweiss	hiredman: that's fine, but i am not getting any new commits
13:59	jweiss	ah
13:59	hiredman	oh, right, need to push
13:59	jweiss	git pull origin
14:03	R4p70r	Anyone knows if some of the Conj videos are online now?
14:03	Raynes	R4p70r: Not yet.
14:05	hiredman	jweiss: if you need ssl support I have a little command line thing I run that creates an ssl tunnel for the bot
14:05	jweiss	hiredman i don't think i need ssl
14:05	R4p70r	hiredman, dows that use stunnel?
14:05	R4p70r	*does
14:05	ibdknox	,(group-by :blah [])
14:05	clojurebot	{}
14:05	ibdknox	,(group-by :blah nil)
14:05	clojurebot	{}
14:06	ibdknox	is there some rhyme or reason to which functions will take nil in place of a collection and not choke?
14:07	technomancy	ibdknox: depending on whether they were implemented before or after Clojure's stance on nil-punning solidified? =)
14:07	cemerick	hah
14:07	hiredman	R4p70r: no
14:07	ibdknox	lol
14:07	ibdknox	:p
14:07	cemerick	ibdknox: anything that processes collections sequentially will generally implicitly `seq` the coll.
14:07	hiredman	rm -rf in out && mkfifo in && mkfifo out && cat in \| openssl s_client -connect irc.sa2s.us:6667 -quiet > out & cat out \| tee out.log \| nc -l localhost 7776 \| tee in
14:08	hiredman	oops, please ignore that host name there
14:08	ibdknox	cemerick: I see
14:08	hiredman	anyway, hostname:port of the server with ssl, and then nc running on the localhost with the port the bot connects to
14:09	cemerick	ibdknox: he says, unconvinced ;-)
14:10	ibdknox	cemerick: haha, well I guess that makes sense, but is a level of indirection that seems a little weird to me. Consistency would be nice.
14:10	cemerick	example of a fn that bombs on nil that you'd expect to succeed?
14:11	hiredman	ibdknox: which functions that take a collection and don't take nil have you puzzled?
14:11	ibdknox	cemerick: hiredman: I don't have a concrete example right now, I was just surprised actually that group-by worked with nil
14:12	cemerick	all due to
14:12	cemerick	,(seq nil)
14:12	clojurebot	nil
14:12	hiredman	,(type (lazy-seq nil))
14:12	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazySeq
14:13	hiredman	,(seq (lazy-seq nil))
14:13	clojurebot	nil
14:13	hiredman	,(lazy-seq nil)
14:13	clojurebot	()
14:13	pmenon	,(take 10 (range))
14:13	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
14:14	ibdknox	cemerick: though to be clear, cleanly handling nil is nice, I'm not arguing that.
14:14	cemerick	range has a zero-arg arity? That's new, yeah?
14:14	Raynes	It was in 1.2.0, iIrc.
14:14	ibdknox	cemerick: I thought that was 1.2.0
14:14	cemerick	(iterate inc 0) being less intutive, I guess.
14:15	pandeiro	clojurescript question: is there an easier way to do the equivalent of JS' el.innerHTML = 'foo' than using dom/remove-children + dom/append?
14:15	pmenon	(take 10 (map #(* %1 2) (range)))
14:15	pmenon	,(take 10 (map #(* %1 2) (range)))
14:15	clojurebot	(0 2 4 6 8 ...)
14:15	cemerick	Raynes: See? Old. :-\|
14:15	ibdknox	pandeiro: (set! el.innerHTML "foo")
14:15	cemerick	"What are these protocols of which you speak?"
14:15	pandeiro	ibdknox: great thanks, much nicer
14:16	ibdknox	pandeiro: you might have to do (.innerHTML el) I don't remember
14:16	ibdknox	I thought the first one worked
14:16	pandeiro	i'll check it out
14:17	dnolen	pandeiro: note that (.innerHTML el) probably won't work for much longer.
14:17	ibdknox	dnolen: when is that going in?
14:17	pandeiro	dnolen: ok, is the first suggestion the recommended idiom then?
14:17	ibdknox	pandeiro: in the future it will be (.-innerHTML el)
14:17	dnolen	ibdknox: just waiting for clojure 1.4.0 alpha1
14:18	hiredman	I think alpha1 is already out
14:18	ibdknox	pandeiro: denoting that it is a property
14:18	dnolen	hiredman: ah, sorry then the next one.
14:18	Raynes	That's a terrible name.
14:18	ibdknox	hiredman: it is, but it doesn't have the new property syntax
14:18	hiredman	right
14:18	Raynes	ibdknox: Maybe we should call them with .$-_*innerHTML
14:18	ibdknox	Raynes: you forgot ^
14:18	Raynes	Damn!
14:19	dnolen	Raynes: heh. I quite like the dash now.
14:19	pandeiro	this is to differentiate properites and argumentless methods?
14:19	dnolen	make understanding what's happening in CLJS much simpler.
14:19	dnolen	pandeiro: yes
14:20	hiredman	it is kind of horrible given the use of dash for stuff like the implementing fns of methods in gen-class
14:20	dnolen	pandeiro: you can try it out by using the prop-lookup branch of ClojureScript
14:20	pandeiro	has anyone implemented a client-side couchdb lib in cljs yet?
14:21	pandeiro	dnolen: cool i will
14:22	ibdknox	pandeiro: cemerick has some code for that
14:22	TimMc	lein new plugin lein-derps
14:23	cemerick	pandeiro, ibdknox: nothing for cljs, client-side
14:23	cemerick	clutch will do you server-side
14:24	pandeiro	i am working on something in my free time, but i am still at the bottom of the clj learning curve
14:24	cemerick	pandeiro: do you really want all your users to have open access to your database?
14:24	ibdknox	oh
14:24	pandeiro	cemerick: i think there are use cases
14:24	ibdknox	I misunderstood the question
14:24	cemerick	yeah, there are
14:24	cemerick	I just don't happen to have them :-)
14:25	pandeiro	cemerick: and i think finer grained read controls may eventually wind up in couch
14:25	cemerick	yeah, maybe
14:27	cemerick	I've never gotten into the whole couchapp thing. Clever, but…meh.
14:28	pandeiro	cemerick: i hear you, i am not an internet entrepreneur but an educator, so the idea of rapid prototyping functional webapps is interesting, even with the obvious data transparency
14:28	pandeiro	i'm throwing around terms like i know what i am talking about, which i really dont :)
14:29	technomancy	pandeiro: yeah, couch is fantastic for scaling down to personal-level apps
14:30	cemerick	its breadth is remarkable. "I like it for mobile/personal apps." "I like it for chewing through TBs of data."
14:30	pandeiro	technomancy: i understand for enterprisey stuff, you need heavier architecture, but for small groups of students, it's been great... plus the learning curve for couch was easy imo
14:31	dnolen	pandeiro: couchapp is amazing if you have the right concept in mind - http://datacouch.com/#/welcome is pretty sweet
14:31	pandeiro	i am a little embarrassed to put stuff on github with my very feeble skills but otoh i could use feedback/help from better programmers...
14:31	pandeiro	dnolen: seen that, awesome
14:32	technomancy	it would be interesting to see how couchapps could interact with telehash for routing around the brokenness of NAT
14:32	dnolen	pandeiro: a tool chain could leverage scraper wiki + google refine + data couch would be very useful to a log of organizations.
14:32	dnolen	that could
14:32	dnolen	log -> lot
14:32	technomancy	pandeiro: bring it to a local meetup, if there's one around
14:33	pandeiro	technomancy: i'm in brazil, do you know of anything?
14:34	technomancy	pandeiro: sorry =\
14:34	technomancy	closest I know is paraseba in .ar
14:35	cemerick	isn't he running some kind of clojure training down there?
14:35	pandeiro	i will look into it... i guess i can always throw it up on github with appropriate disclaimers, not like i have a rep to lose
14:35	technomancy	cemerick: I thought the training was in canada
14:35	cemerick	hah
14:35	cemerick	locality often being an antiquated question these days
14:36	technomancy	in general I agree, but there's nothing like a local meetup.
14:36	technomancy	though... hm. conference calls plus pair.io? maybe.
14:36	pandeiro	technomancy: i really like the idea of yours to use VMs with a pre-setup emacs... i keep thinking of doing the same for cljs/couchapp stuff
14:36	pandeiro	because it took me weeks to figure it out
14:37	pandeiro	but now i have a decent flow, despite being an emacs/clojure noob
14:37	technomancy	cool
14:37	technomancy	I really hope http://pair.io opens up soon.
14:37	pandeiro	i wondered why you use vagrant as opposed to just a vm image?
14:37	pandeiro	vdi or whatever it is for virtualbox
14:38	technomancy	pandeiro: you can't check VM images into git
14:38	ibdknox	I've been thinking about starting up some Clojure training in the bay area
14:39	pandeiro	i keep secretly hoping some of you guys get into screencasting :)
14:39	Raynes	technomancy: So do I!
14:51	joly	How would I go about accessing javax.print.DocFlavor.INPUT_STREAM.PDF? I've imported javax.print.DocFlavor, but I can't seem to get any farther.
14:52	cemerick	DocFlavor$INPUT_STREAM/PDF
14:52	cemerick	assuming INPUT_STREAM is an inner class?
14:52	joly	Thanks, totally forgot about that. Yes, it's an inner class.
15:02	Sindikat	hello everyone!
15:03	Sindikat	let's say i want to write a simple game in Clojure. like a roguelike, or IF, or text quest, or RPG. what libraries should i employ to ease my efforts?
15:04	ibdknox	Sindikat: what would you want the library to do?
15:04	pandeiro	is there a shortcut to return true if a map has a key (regardless of value), and false otherwise?
15:04	Sindikat	graphics mostly. colored 2D ascii would be fine
15:04	hiredman	pandeiro: contains?
15:05	Sindikat	also some general algorithms like shortest path and so on
15:05	pandeiro	hiredman: doh, thanks
15:05	ibdknox	Sindikat: I'm fairly certain that doesn't exist for Clojure specifically. You'll need to use a java lib
15:05	ibdknox	Sindikat: the only game "library" I know of is this one: https://github.com/pepijndevos/Begame/
15:07	cemerick	It's unfortunate that ^:foo (Record. 5 6) does not pass along that metadata.
15:07	Sindikat	ibdknox: i guess so
15:07	joly	Sindikat: http://nakkaya.com/2010/06/01/path-finding-using-astar-in-clojure/ is a blog post about an A* implementation
15:07	cemerick	And yet the reader literal does.
15:07	Sindikat	joly: oh, cool!
15:07	hiredman	uh
15:07	ibdknox	Sindikat: writing a game in a functional language is an interesting experiment
15:07	hiredman	cemerick: ^ is a reader macro, what do you expect?
15:08	cemerick	magic dammit, magic
15:08	hiredman	:(
15:08	cemerick	hah
15:08	Sindikat	ibdknox: i don't think it would be particularly hard. i already tried doing such in Python, and the only mutable data were numerous key-value collections, that i stored in JSON files (npcs, weapons etc). otherwise game logic was pretty functional-like
15:09	hiredman	cemerick: I would prefer people learn the difference between read time, macroexpand time, compile time, and runtime
15:09	pandeiro	hiredman: contains? can only do a full match, not say a substring of a key, right?
15:09	ibdknox	Sindikat: I've done it as well :)
15:09	hiredman	pandeiro: check the doc string
15:10	hiredman	pardon me
15:10	hiredman	read time, macroexpand time, inline time, compile time, and runtime
15:12	chouser	Interesting. I'm more concerned with the difference between analyze time, emit time, and load time
15:13	hiredman	read time, macroexpand time, inline time, nalyze time, emit time, load time, and runtime
15:13	hiredman	read time, macroexpand time, inline time, analyze time, emit time, load time, and runtime
15:13	Sindikat	hammer time :)
15:14	stuartsierra	Hammock time.
15:14	hiredman	inline time and analysis are kind of interleaved
15:15	cemerick	yeah, not sure if in-depth understanding of the compiler impl is a healthy thing, guys ;-)
15:15	chouser	oh, read-eval time
15:15	chouser	syntax-quote time
15:16	nickmbailey	does top level code (not in a function) in a :gen-class namespace get evaluated at compile time or run time
15:16	cemerick	In any case, (Foo.) is known to be a ctor form involving an identified class, and we have the meta on that form. Emitting the equivalent of (with-meta (Foo.) {…}) isn't exactly out of reach.
15:17	cemerick	If Foo implements IObj, of course
15:17	hiredman	cemerick: it is
15:17	hiredman	you should understand the tools you use
15:17	hiredman	which is why clojure has an edge, it is understandable
15:20	hiredman	cemerick: I see no reason to do that
15:23	cemerick	hiredman: I don't either, really.
15:39	devn	Raynes: I grabbed lein-newnew and am playing with it -- I've created a new template but lein doesn't seem to be picking up the change to my project.clj's description
15:40	devn	Raynes: `lein templates` reflects the original description text in the project.clj -- do i have to manually update my templates?
15:40	Raynes	The documentation you see is the documentation on the actual template function, not the description in project.clj.
15:44	devn	Raynes: you say that you need to have a file on the classpath leiningen/new/blah.clj
15:44	devn	could that live under ~/.lein/templates
15:44	nickmbailey	is it expected that the following code will print "Linux Stuff" when running 'lein compile'? https://gist.github.com/1377678
15:45	Raynes	devn: The idea is that templates are just maven artifacts. But allowing that would just mean adding ~/.lein/templates to the classpath.
15:45	Raynes	technomancy: ^ How do we feel about that? Is that even possible with a plugin?
15:46	Raynes	Really though, you could just 'lein install & lein plugin install ..' your template without putting it on maven, if you wanted.
15:46	devn	Raynes: what if I don't want to muck with the classpath? Could there be a default location for templates that is just added by default?
15:46	Raynes	Not sure what you mean by 'muck with the classpath'. You shouldn't ever have to touch the classpath.
15:47	devn	Raynes: I create a template `lein new template sensible_defaults`
15:47	devn	I cd into sensible_defaults and edit project.clj
15:47	devn	at this point the template is on my classpath from lein's perspective
15:48	devn	if I'm somewhere else on the system I don't have access to that template
15:48	Raynes	'lein install && lein plugin install sensible_defaults 0.1.0'
15:48	devn	^drop this in the readme please :)
15:48	Raynes	Also, lein-newnew's template template replaces hypens with underscores for you.
15:49	Raynes	All of the default templates, actually.
15:49	Raynes	And sure, good idea.
15:49	devn	that's really nice
15:49	devn	Raynes: One more suggestion would be to include more Usage to include the full story
15:50	devn	Raynes: I noticed lein new template foo is missing from usage
15:50	Raynes	It's under 'writing templates'
15:52	devn	Raynes: An example of start->finish i run `lein new template foo`, i edit project.clj, i `lein install`, `lein plugin install sensible_defaults 0.1.0`, then i want to use my template so I ...
15:52	devn	Raynes: not trying to nitpick just advocating a bit more narrative in the README
15:56	devn	Raynes: so, I am clearly not getting it -- I lein install, lein plugin install sensible 0.1.0, lein new sensible foo
15:56	devn	foo only contains a src/ dir with src/foo/foo.clj
15:57	biallym	I have the libraries working correctly with out lein
15:57	biallym	Hey so I would like to repackage a set of java libraries for clojure so that the maintainers can host them, and I'm very lost in what i need to do to make that work >.>
15:57	biallym	but I would like for lein to be able to install them it's self
15:57	Raynes	devn: So the problem is that your template didn't create the files you wanted?
15:58	devn	Raynes: so, my immediate understanding was totally flawed
16:00	devn	Raynes: I imagined that what would happen was that, after I edited some files and what-not in my sensible/ dir, I could install that, and now I could use that whole thing as a "template", where lein-newnew understood that the project name and so on would change when i created a new project with that template
16:00	devn	Raynes: looking at the default.clj, i see that was totally wrong :)
16:01	Raynes	:p
16:01	devn	Raynes: where is the best place to look in lein-newnew for a good example template
16:01	Raynes	default.clj is a decent example.
16:01	devn	and could I suggest creating an examples/ root-level dir
16:02	Raynes	Well, the idea is that the default templates serve as examples.
16:02	Raynes	Not that I'm against other examples in an examples directory, but it'll just disappear when lein-newnew moves into Leiningen itself.
16:03	devn	Raynes: nod, totally understand, just raising the level of visibility I think would stop people from having the same experience that I had
16:03	devn	nod, another totally valid point
16:03	Raynes	Mostly, I just need to write a little tutorial.
16:03	Raynes	On the wiki or something.
16:03	Raynes	That can persist even when the project moves into Leiningen.
16:04	devn	Raynes: yeah, I'm happy to help out later on this evening
16:04	Raynes	Cool. :>
16:20	hhutch	Raynes: i did not know about lein-newnew, i wrote my own for internal use. that's very handy
16:21	Raynes	Well, I wrote it like 2 days ago.
16:21	ibdknox	hhutch: it's new
16:21	hhutch	ah
16:21	hhutch	cool. great idea
16:25	yazirian	Has anyone out there taught clojure to a team of average developers? By which I mean, the clojure community seems to be self-selectedly intelligent; I have a BIG upcoming work project, and if it were just me I'd already be wearing out my parentheses, but I have to consider the team of jr. devs that will be developing and maintaining it along with me, and they aren't quite... shall we say, of precisely the same mindset.
16:26	stuartsierra	I taught Clojure to a group of high-school computer science students.
16:26	yazirian	I guess I'm talking about something tangentially related to Neal's talk at the conj, except in a world where tool acceptance is not the obstacle.
16:26	stuartsierra	But they were pretty bright.
16:27	ibdknox	yazirian: what is the current language?
16:27	yazirian	Where did you begin? The official docs, while thorough, are terse and exceptionally technical.
16:27	yazirian	We're a python shop.
16:27	ibdknox	you should do a workshop, don't just hand them docs
16:27	jodaro	yazirian: unfortunately i've gained little traction in my group
16:27	yazirian	Personally, I've spent a lot of time with the published books as well as videos on for example blip.
16:28	jodaro	i've tried scala and clojure
16:28	hhutch	yazirian: i just went through stuartsierra's 3 day training based on labrepl
16:28	yazirian	But I can't go so far as to take a bunch of guys and dedicate a week of videos and bookreading on them.
16:28	jodaro	this is a mostly perl shop and no one seems to care really
16:28	hhutch	yazirian: that's a good approach to start
16:28	yazirian	jodaro: I'm sort of in the same place.
16:28	jodaro	we have a bunch of java dudes in another country
16:29	jodaro	and they don't really get it either
16:29	stuartsierra	LabREPL is free, open-source, and full of content: https://github.com/relevance/labrepl
16:29	jodaro	so
16:29	yazirian	Like, I have a strong feeling like I've identified the right approach -- the problem is better suited than it would be in python, it's aggregating a firehose of syslog data
16:29	jodaro	i'd say the hardest part isn't the learning, its the buy-in
16:29	yazirian	I'm fortunate enough that I can just about dictate the tool, actually.
16:29	jodaro	yazirian: thats a good start
16:29	yazirian	Which is a spin on the problem; I'd be dragging them along.
16:29	jodaro	unless you piss them off with it, i guess
16:30	jodaro	yeah
16:30	yazirian	exactly :)
16:30	yazirian	stuartsierra: That looks really good, thanks!
16:30	stuartsierra	you're welcome
16:30	hhutch	yazirian: as lame as it may seem, i think the whole "interactive development" really sells clojure to people. When they see someone effeciently working in SLIME/Inferior LISP, it really makes a difference on "buy in"
16:31	yazirian	hhutch: I've had a few of those sorts of moments already, but python and in particular ipython seems to be "close enough" that until they actually do it, they don't see the distinction.
16:31	stuartsierra	That's less of a big deal for Ruby/Python folks, I think. They have similar capabilities.
16:31	ibdknox	Why are monome's so expensive? I want one :(
16:32	yazirian	I don't think syntax is too scary, but then again, I'm anecdotal on my team. :)
16:34	yazirian	The existing system is already a fairly complex group of python processes interconnected via sysv message queues. That dictates things like futures, maybe a tool like lamina, you know... the complicated stuff around concurrency.
16:35	yazirian	If the cliff is already steep, it feels like I should be that much more careful to choose the right starting place for training.
16:35	melipone	I'm trying to use with-out-append-writer in clojure.contrib.io but I get error msg "java.lang.Exception: Cannot change an open stream to append mode. (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)" Any ideas?
16:35	hiredman	stop trying to change an open stream to append mode
16:36	stuartsierra	melipone: what are you calling with-out-append-writer on?
16:36	melipone	just a filename
16:36	melipone	"(with-out-append-writer "test.arff")"
16:37	stuartsierra	that should work: probably a bug
16:37	melipone	startsierra: a bug where?
16:37	stuartsierra	in clojure.java.io
16:37	melipone	damn
16:38	stuartsierra	Please file a JIRA ticket.
16:38	zerokarmaleft	ibdknox: i know right, it's just a box with lights for buttons :-/
16:38	stuartsierra	You may be able to work around it by calling `append-writer` instead, or calling the Java Writer constructors directly.
16:38	cemerick	ibdknox: there's cheaper knockoffs
16:38	zerokarmaleft	someone told me at the conj that you could easily construct one yourself for a fraction of the cost
16:38	ibdknox	cemerick: do you know the name of any of them
16:39	melipone	stuartsierra: okay thanks
16:40	cemerick	ibdknox: http://amzn.to/tW7l7m
16:40	cemerick	No idea of the relative quality/features/ability to be easily integrated with overtone
16:40	zerokarmaleft	ibdknox: http://docs.monome.org/doku.php?id=tech:mk <= kit parts
16:41	ibdknox	zerokarmaleft: interesting
16:41	zerokarmaleft	b/c it ain't manly unless it's 64x64!
16:41	ibdknox	cemerick: yeah, I saw some of these, but it's hard to tell if any of them are worthwhile
16:44	yazirian	Is there a way to make slime open a slime-repl, if it didn't open one already? I'm using emacs-starter-kit v2 on emacs24 and it isn't opening a repl when i slime-connect to the labrepl swank...
16:45	zerokarmaleft	the novation is only $125
16:46	ibdknox	zerokarmaleft: it's very heavily tied with ableton
16:47	zerokarmaleft	yea i wouldn't bet on it being very configurable as a midi controller
16:47	zerokarmaleft	though they do claim that
16:50	candera	Has anyone run across any tools for visualizing static call graphs in Clojure code?
16:50	zerokarmaleft	technomancy: did i miss the leiningen swag handout or are those long-sleeve baseball tees available somewhere?
16:51	technomancy	zerokarmaleft: it's just a cafepress thing: http://www.cafepress.com/technomancy
16:51	technomancy	haven't quite taken it to the handing-out-free-merchandise level yet =)
16:51	zerokarmaleft	heh, fair enough
16:52	yazirian	n/m fixed by commenting out dev-dependencies in project.clj
16:52	zerokarmaleft	i thought perhaps heroku subsidized your shirts :D
16:52	stuartsierra	melipone: Wait, did you say clojure.contrib.io?
16:52	stuartsierra	or clojure.java.io?
16:53	yazirian	stuartsierra: he was looking at contrib
16:53	stuartsierra	well, who knows what state that is in.
16:54	stuartsierra	That bug may be fixed in clojure.java.io.
16:54	stuartsierra	(Or maybe the offending function doesn't exist.)
16:54	yazirian	it doesn't
16:55	stuartsierra	For good reason, it seems.
16:55	yazirian	haha yeah, if it isn't working :)
17:02	technomancy	only three watchers on https://github.com/trptcolin/reply how can this be‽
17:03	stuartsierra	never heard of it
17:03	ibdknox	I couldn't get it to work
17:04	jodaro	huh
17:04	jodaro	i get all of those from emacs i think
17:04	jodaro	re: the bullet points
17:04	technomancy	stuartsierra: it uses jline 2 to provide project-aware completion and other goodies
17:04	hiredman	technomancy: it is newish
17:04	technomancy	also non-broken unicode, yay
17:05	technomancy	jodaro: yeah, that's largely the reason the leiningen repl hasn't seen much investment too.
17:05	jodaro	oh code completion
17:05	technomancy	"luckily" trptcolin uses vim. =)
17:05	jodaro	thats kinda cool
17:05	ibdknox	hm
17:05	ibdknox	vimclojure does all of that too
17:05	technomancy	ibdknox: well don't tell colin!
17:06	hiredman	I enjoy how the dejour link is a 404
17:06	ibdknox	:)
17:06	hiredman	technomancy: the analyzer!
17:06	technomancy	aw yeah
17:06	stuartsierra	Ever notice how periodically someone will say "Why doesn't everybody use X?" only to be followed by "I couldn't get it to work with Y, Z, or Q."
17:07	hiredman	someone should write that java Expr => clojure maps thing
17:07	technomancy	stuartsierra: yeah, I was primarily attempting to counteract the "never heard of it" blocker rather than anything more substantial =)
17:08	technomancy	hiredman: another potentially awful idea: storing runtime types off a test run and using it to annotate type hints for a given set of defns
17:08	hiredman	and I used up my one night of extracurricular activities recompiling emacs and futzing with the color settings on my monitor
17:08	hiredman	so not me
17:10	devn	speaking of labrepl...
17:11	hiredman	:(
17:16	ibdknox	for those who didn't see my editor mockups at the conj: http://chris-granger.com/gallery/mockups
17:18	stuartsierra	ibdknox: What is that?
17:18	Raynes	stuartsierra: His dream editor that he'll never write.
17:18	stuartsierra	ah
17:18	ibdknox	lol
17:19	stuartsierra	It's pretty, though.
17:19	ibdknox	why won't I?
17:19	Raynes	Because you're lazy.
17:19	ibdknox	stuartsierra: yeah, just concepts of a clojure focused editor
17:19	ibdknox	well
17:20	ibdknox	I am lazy. That's hard to argue against. I also happen to use Clojure an awful lot too though...
17:20	Raynes	ibdknox: Seriously though, if you do pursue it, count me in.
17:20	ibdknox	it's codenamed sona
17:21	Raynes	But it'd probably make more sense a very nice text editor written in Clojure that just happens to have the best Clojure support of all editors ever.
17:21	technomancy	ibdknox: not interested in clooj?
17:21	zerokarmaleft	ibdknox: what's in the nodedefense folder?
17:22	ibdknox	zerokarmaleft: the game I built for the node knockout
17:22	zerokarmaleft	oh yea, i played that...no wonder it was ringing a bell
17:23	ibdknox	technomancy: the implementation would be radically different than the direction clooj is headed in
17:24	Raynes	And wouldn't have such a horrible name either.
17:24	ibdknox	I was thinking of embedded webkit so that it could leverage some the really nice editors already written in JS and could then be completely scripted in cljs
17:24	technomancy	interesting
17:25	ibdknox	plus, trying to embed controls into java textboxes?
17:25	ibdknox	ugh
17:25	technomancy	oh, I was under the impression that the textbox stuff would have to be reimplemented no matter what
17:25	technomancy	if you're going to get something that's actually usable
17:25	ibdknox	Ideally I'd steal the editor
17:25	ibdknox	which I can do in the JS world
17:25	technomancy	that is to say, I can't imagine clooj is using that because they think it's a good idea long-term.
17:26	ibdknox	writing editors from scratch is a pain in the ass. I know this first hand.
17:26	ibdknox	lol
17:26	hiredman	at some point swing is going to get a webview
17:26	ibdknox	hiredman: swt already has one
17:26	Raynes	clooj could really use seesaw.
17:26	hiredman	yeah, but I dislike swt
17:27	hiredman	I dunno, I imagine I am not the audience for new things
17:28	ibdknox	probably not
17:28	ibdknox	I'm not sure it'd make sense to think of the emacs folks as the audience for something like this
17:28	hiredman	clojure -> elisp byte code
17:28	ibdknox	textmate did a lot for the rails community
17:28	hiredman	now there's platform power
17:28	technomancy	hiredman: yeah, once that compiler is written we'll have three competing Clojure editors =)
17:29	technomancy	I wonder if that would make a good long-term seajure hack project
17:30	ibdknox	technomancy: an elisp compiler?
17:30	technomancy	ibdknox: elisp-as-a-compilation-target
17:30	technomancy	well, elisp or emacs bytecode
17:30	ibdknox	right
17:30	technomancy	modulo all the hosty deftype OO stuff, elisp would be the least semantic distance from clojure
17:30	hiredman	well, I think once we get a nice ir (what chouser was talking about) then other targets are much easier
17:31	technomancy	my main problem is I get bored with compiler books because they go on and on about "here's how you parse languages; this stuff is really hard so pay attention" ... snooooooze
17:32	technomancy	"you want to write a compiler for a language with a complicated syntax. [...] now you have two problems"
17:32	hiredman	emitting byte code and making the vm deal with the nasty compiler bits like register allocation is pretty nice
17:32	technomancy	hiredman: problem is I don't think byte code is stable between major releases
17:32	technomancy	also: debuggery
17:36	hiredman	also, symbol macros
17:36	hiredman	man, that would be excellent
19:04	seancorfield	if I have something I just want to "fire and forget", what's the recommended way?
19:05	seancorfield	in other words, I have a side-effecting function I want called async... I just want it executed "soon" but I don't really care when / where.
19:06	hiredman	future
19:07	seancorfield	'k... that's what I was considering... just wanted to make sure that was idiomatic :)
19:09	hiredman	it's exactly what you want on the threadpool you want
19:47	slyphon	technomancy: hi!
19:48	slyphon	technomancy: i'm happy to see leiningen is still alive and well
19:48	kreigly	heylo
19:48	kreigly	looking for the clojure 1.3.0 equivalent of (gen-and-load-class
19:49	kreigly	as in (gen-and-load-class 'DeadEnd :extends Throwable)
19:59	kreigly	no dice?
20:12	hiredman	kreigly: gen-and-load-class was removed many years ago
20:12	hiredman	pre 1.2 possible pre 1.0
21:02	bobhope	hello clojure friends, I am just starting out with clojure, and I'm having trouble configuring nailgun, leiningen, vimclojure to play nicely
21:03	bobhope	I added the vimclojure/server as a dev-dependency in my leiningen config
21:03	bobhope	and I downloaded the nailgun-client and set the vimclojure#NailgunClient variable
21:03	bobhope	to no avail
21:07	chouser	trying to use overtone. The JVM keeps segfaulting. :-(
21:26	chouser	ok, not longer crashing. Also, making no sound.
21:31	leo2007	good morning
21:32	chouser	woo! working now..
21:34	santa_monica_506	is there a way i can mock a deref def in my clojure test?
21:36	chouser	what's a deref def?
21:38	santa_monica_506	something like (def proxy (atom nil)) ... then (.someMethod @proxy arg1 arg2)
23:20	mdh```	my clojure-mode indents cond bad :-(
23:21	bhenry	mdh mine indents weird when using {:keys} destructuring inside of a let.
23:23	mdh```	hmm, yeah basic case of (cond a b \n c d) looks fine
23:24	slyphon	was it clojure that let you put your source in src/com.example.proj instead of src/com/example/proj ?
23:24	slyphon	sorry, i just remember one of the JVM langugaes was ok with that
23:26	mdh```	this: (cond (or \n) x \n b)
23:38	slyphon	what's the correct version of clojure-contrib to use w/ 1.3 ?
23:38	brehaut	~contrib
23:39	clojurebot	contribute is http://clojure.org/contributing
23:39	brehaut	bah
23:39	slyphon	hah
23:39	brehaut	http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
23:39	brehaut	basicly, use the individual contrib libs; there is no monolothic contrib any more
23:39	slyphon	oh
23:39	slyphon	smert
23:40	slyphon	"i can't believe nobody stepped up to maintain that huge codebase"
23:41	slyphon	(those were sarcasm quotes)
23:56	brehaut	,(apropos 'fn)
23:56	clojurebot	(fn? bound-fn letfn fn some-fn ...)