#clojure – 2011-11-16

2011-11-16

00:06	klauern	$implement-thought-in-brain ?
00:07	klauern	once that works, I'll quit the internet and computers
00:12	aperiodic	&(doall (filter good? aperiodic/thoughts))
00:12	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: good? in this context
00:12	aperiodic	darn
00:13	amalloy	aperiodic: you forgot (map implement) too
00:13	aperiodic	oh, right
00:15	aperiodic	unless my thoughts turn out to be functions that implement themselves without requiring further input
00:15	wtfcoder	so i have clojure-contrib pull in via lein deps (i see it in /libs) however ('use clojure.contrib.sql) seems to throw class not found error from lein run, is there any thing else i should be doing?
00:19	aperiodic	well you want to run (use 'clojure.contrib.sql), not ('use clojure.contrib.sql)
00:20	aperiodic	you quote the symbol you want to use to avoid it being evaluated
00:20	amalloy	unless he's doing it in a ns form...
00:25	aperiodic	i thought you could only use keywords in the ns form
00:25	amalloy	aperiodic: that might be the case, but adding a quote to c.c.sql would only make it worse. my point is we can't suggest a fix without context
00:28	aperiodic	amalloy: point taken
00:30	amalloy	fwiw, aperiodic, (ns foo (use clojure.java.io)) works fine - the ns macro just calls ##(doc name) on the grouping thingy
00:30	lazybot	⇒ "([x]); Returns the name String of a string, symbol or keyword."
00:32	wtfcoder	No matching field found: getRoot for class clojure.lang.Var, compiling:(sql.clj:29)
00:32	wtfcoder	at clojure.lang.Compiler$DefExpr.eval(Compiler.java:388)
00:32	wtfcoder
00:32	aperiodic	amalloy: thanks, good to know
00:32	wtfcoder	this comes up by just including clojure.contrib.sql via use or require and doing nothing else
00:32	wtfcoder	how should i start to debug/troubleshoot this..
00:32	amalloy	wtfcoder: don't use contrib
00:32	amalloy	(especially not in a clojure-1.3 program)
00:33	wtfcoder	using contrib is considering bad practice now? (my study book is halloways first edition ~2yrs old)
00:34	amalloy	clojurebot: what happened to contrib?
00:34	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
00:34	amalloy	clojurebot: where did contrib go?
00:34	clojurebot	well... it's a long story: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
00:41	devth	what's a good way to handle date/time in clojure?
00:41	devth	looks like several of the previous libs went missing.
00:42	Raynes	devth: clj-time
00:43	aperiodic	what's the canonical location of clj-time?
00:43	devth	Raynes: i saw that recommended a lot but the github page is gone. know of another place to find its docs?
00:43	aperiodic	i was using github/getwoven/clj-time, but i just checked, and it's gone now
00:43	Raynes	Yeah, just noticed that.
00:43	Raynes	Strange.
00:44	Raynes	https://github.com/seancorfield/clj-time <-- I think.
00:44	amalloy	wow, sean took that over too?
00:44	Raynes	Looks like it.
00:44	Raynes	Man is a trooper.
00:44	amalloy	dude is a machine
00:45	Raynes	But mostly it's sad that everybody abandons their libraries.
00:45	devth	Raynes: thanks
00:45	amalloy	Raynes: don't look at me! just tonight i released an updated version of a library i haven't touched in half a year
00:45	Raynes	amalloy: Remember clj-config? Yeah, I still maintain that.
00:45	wtfcoder	how can I change leiningen to use the jdk at /opt/bin32-jdk/ rather than the system one (sun 64bit) I dont want to change the global JVM that intellij uses for its IDE app etc..
00:47	wtfcoder	looks like just exporting JAVA_CMD will work from reading the lein script?
00:48	Raynes	Try it.
00:48	aperiodic	btw, Raynes, I really enjoyed your clojail slides
00:48	Raynes	aperiodic: :D!
00:48	aperiodic	learned a lot even without having the video
00:48	wtfcoder	just going to check if other bootstraps such as intellij launcher use this, but i think that uses JAVA_HOME instead
01:27	ollim	hmm.. why is this not working: (into (sorted-set) (map vec (sequence-of-lazy-sequences))) ? i get a clojure.lang.PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq cannot be cast to java.lang.Comparable exception
01:30	amalloy	&(sort [(range 2) (range 3)])
01:30	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to java.lang.Comparable
01:41	aperiodic	ollim: it's because vectors aren't comparable. you could work around that, but i think it would involve evaluating all of each lazy sequence, which is probably undesirable
01:42	amalloy	aperiodic: incorrect, vectors are comparable
01:43	amalloy	but seqs are not sortable, and his vectors contained seqs, so the vector couldn't compare its elements to the other vector's elements
01:44	ollim	amalloy: what i was trying to accomplish is in fact to turn the lazy sequences into a collection of vectors
01:44	amalloy	you succeeded, but those vectors contained lazy sequences
01:45	amalloy	&(sort [ [(range 5)] [(range 9)] ] )
01:45	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to java.lang.Comparable
01:46	aperiodic	amalloy: is the motivation for making vectors but not seqs comparable mainly performance?
01:46	amalloy	shrug
01:56	ollim	i still don't get it. my example data shows ((0 2) (0 1 2)) turned into ([0 2] [0 1 2]). and then i get the PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq cannot be cast to Comparable exception. I think I am just not properly understanding how the "chunked" plays into this. i think i will convert the code to use vectors all-round and forget entirely about lazy seqs for the time being.
02:00	amalloy	chunked doesn't matter
02:00	amalloy	(in this context)
02:00	amalloy	&(into (sorted-set) (map vec (for [n (range 10)] (range n))))
02:00	lazybot	⇒ #{[] [0] [0 1] [0 1 2] [0 1 2 3] [0 1 2 3 4] [0 1 2 3 4 5] [0 1 2 3 4 5 6] [0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7] [0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8]}
02:01	amalloy	so if your input really were a seq of lazy seqs of "atoms", this would work fine
02:02	amalloy	but it sounds like you're getting something else you don't expect
02:03	ollim	amalloy: it seems so. thanks for clarifying.
02:04	amalloy	though a sorted-set of vectors is something you might be surprised by the sort order of anyway
02:05	amalloy	eg, ##(sort [[0 1 2] [3] [4 5]])
02:05	lazybot	⇒ ([3] [4 5] [0 1 2])
02:13	ollim	yes, what i
02:14	ollim	.. am in need of is a string-like sort but on integer sequences
02:14	ollim	thanks again
03:42	Blkt	good morning everyone
03:43	ejackson	Good morning all
03:58	dbushenko	morning!
04:53	wtfcoder	on this snippet http://ideone.com/HVUXk where is the magic happening with param-groups, is this just a redundant local variable?
04:55	wtfcoder	sorry ignore figured it out, duh
05:17	frankieboy	,(+1 1)
05:17	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
05:17	frankieboy	,(+ 1 1)
05:17	clojurebot	2
06:06	leo2007	"Identities are modeled using one of the three reference types: refs, agents, atoms and vars."
06:06	leo2007	but he listed 4 types.
06:07	leo2007	a type?
06:07	leo2007	typo*
06:07	Borkdude	lol
06:09	raek	There are exactly three (4) reference types in Clojure.
06:10	lucian	raek: i'm sure it's just a concurrent modification error :)
06:10	Borkdude	lol
06:10	lucian	text must've been generated with Java
06:14	Bahman	Hi all!
06:20	leo2007	OK, I think I read the sentence wrongly.
06:30	samaaron	morning, morning
06:35	cemerick	samaaron: Morning — good move on the nick change :-)
06:39	samaaron	cemerick: thanks :-)
06:40	samaaron	cemerick: the previous one had some interesting symmetric properties, but this one is far more transparent ;-)
06:40	cemerick	hah, so it did, I'd never noticed :-P
06:41	cemerick	when I started using irc again some years ago, I was la_mer for a while. Things got a whole lot simpler when I claimed cemerick.
06:42	samaaron	cemerick: are you a closet nin fan?
06:42	cemerick	samaaron: very astute!
06:42	samaaron	cemerick: it's one of the best tracks on that album
06:43	samaaron	cemerick: apparently it's one of the first tracks he wrote as he moved out of depression after sitting in a studio unproductively for a year
06:45	arbscht	cemerick: that was you? I never noticed!
06:46	samaaron	ambrosebs: morning/afternoon to you goodly sir
06:46	samaaron	that was a fleeting visit...
06:47	cemerick	samaaron: it's certainly on the better side of that double-album
06:47	cemerick	that could have easily been a single CD
06:47	samaaron	cemerick: when that album was released I listened to it for a couple of months non stop
06:48	cemerick	likewise
06:48	samaaron	I haven't listened to it in a long while though - I kind of got bored of him being so angsty
06:48	cemerick	heh
06:48	cemerick	angsty since 1994 or whatever :-P
06:48	samaaron	"cheer up already!"
06:49	cemerick	arbscht: do you actually remember when I was still la_mer? That was years ago…
06:50	arbscht	cemerick: as far back as 2007 or something
06:50	cemerick	that's about right
06:50	cemerick	switched ~mid '08 IIRC
06:51	cemerick	got tired of people always saying "who are you again?"
06:51	arbscht	haha
07:10	clgv	,(println "cemerick: Who are you again?")
07:10	clojurebot	cemerick: Who are you again?
07:12	cemerick	one of the bots should have a way for people to direct messages to people in-channel via privmsg
07:12	cemerick	That'd be fun for about 10 minutes :-P
07:30	Bahman	What's the convention for defining constants in Clojure with 'def'? Using '+' like (def +some-const+ 100)?
07:31	Bahman	defining = naming
07:31	raek	Bahman: the convention is to not have any extra chars around the name
07:31	samaaron	Bahman: I think the official stance is just to use lower case as normal
07:31	raek	since all vars ideally are constants
07:32	samaaron	However, in Overtone we often use CAPS
07:32	raek	and things that change at runtime should be wrapped in a ref/atom/agent
07:32	Bahman	I see the point. So no need to add '*' or '+', right?
07:33	raek	earmuffs actually means something else in Clojure (dynamically rebindable var)
07:33	raek	i.e. vars meant to be rebound with 'binding'
07:33	Bahman	Oh! Alright...then I will simply use (def some-const 100).
07:36	cemerick	Bahman: I've used +const+ before given the scheme convention, but that is pretty unpopular in Clojure-land.
07:37	cemerick	That tendency has almost been beaten out of me. ;-)
07:37	kephale	a leading ♥?
07:37	frankieboy	jay, just discovered the pleasure of auto-complete.el and ac-slime
07:38	frankieboy	one of the few things I really missed from IntelliJ
07:50	leo2007	I am using JDK 7 but the javadoc function always open java 6 documentation.
07:50	leo2007	Ideas?
07:51	Arafangion	"javadoc function"?
07:51	leo2007	(javadoc Math) for example.
07:51	leo2007	I am using java version "1.7.0_147-icedtea"
07:52	Arafangion	Ah, from clojure.contrib.javadoc.
07:52	leo2007	clojure.java.javadoc
07:58	raek	leo2007: what does (System/getProperty "java.specification.version") return for you?
08:00	leo2007	raek: 1.7
08:07	dbushenko	guys, do you have autocompletion of java standard library in your emacs?
08:09	frankieboy	have just got it to work for clojure/lisp, have not experimented yet with java
08:09	dbushenko	frankieboy, how did you manage that?
08:09	dbushenko	M-/ ?
08:09	dbushenko	etags?
08:09	frankieboy	used auto-complete and ac-slime.
08:10	kzar	Is there a shorthand for something like this? (get (get {"example" {"silly" 1}} "example") "silly")
08:11	frankieboy	You can get them using the package manager, using the marmelade repository
08:11	frankieboy	I think you need to use emacs 24
08:12	mange	kzar: (get-in {"example" {"silly" 1}} ["example" "silly"])
08:12	kephale	,(get-in {:a {:b 3}} [:a :b])
08:12	clojurebot	3
08:12	Arafangion	Someone needs to make a patch for emacs, such that it eventually becomes emacs 24.7
08:13	frankieboy	dbushenko: watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH0gOE7rj7g to see how it works
08:13	frankieboy	I really like it
08:13	kzar	,(get-in {"example" {"silly" 1}} ["example" "silly"])
08:13	clojurebot	1
08:13	kzar	kephale: Cool thanks
08:13	dbushenko	frankieboy, thanks!
08:16	frankieboy	dbushenko: read this for something similiar for java: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AutoJavaComplete
08:16	frankieboy	haven't played with that yet, have to do some real work now
08:17	dbushenko	thanks!
08:20	cemerick	leo2007: `javadoc` directs you to JDK 6 documentation by default; it doesn't check your JDK version.
08:27	leo2007	cemerick: thanks.
08:36	frankieboy	Is the video of the Overtone presentation already available?
08:37	frankieboy	I am doing a presentation next week, and I would like to show sam aaron playing the monome
08:44	cemerick	frankieboy: not yet.
08:44	cemerick	When it becomes available, you won't likely miss it. :-)
08:50	duck1123	frankieboy: you have caused me to get auto-complete working again, and for that, I thank you
08:52	leo2007	duck1123: auto-complete?
08:53	duck1123	leo2007: the auto-complete and ac-slime packages for emacs
08:53	leo2007	thx
08:57	frankieboy	I really, really love auto-complete. It was the final missing piece to make emacs for Clojure in the same league as IntelliJ for Java
08:59	duck1123	I had it working a while ago back before it was available in elpa. I lost it when I yanked a bunch of stuff out of my init file. This was the final push I needed to get it set back up
09:00	frankieboy	the package system, starter-kits, auto-complete and ac-slime, in addition to clojure-jack-in make my init.el really small, sane defaults and immediate productivity
09:02	frankieboy	the only wish is some kind of link into clojuredocs from the popup, so that I can look at documentation and code examples
09:03	frankieboy	but that is nitpicking
09:14	fliebel	What do you use for routing? Compojure? Moustache? core.match?
09:16	bendlas	fliebel: moustache
09:17	fliebel	I think core.match could be really interesting, has anyone tried that? I've been suing Moustache as well.
09:23	duck1123	I wrote my own tool for routing
09:26	fliebel	duck1123: Can I see it?
09:28	duck1123	I've yet to document how the routing system works, but it takes a sequence of predicates that take a matcher map and match it against the request map and pass the request on to the next checker. If all the checkers match, then the action is invoked
09:28	duck1123	https://github.com/duck1123/ciste/blob/master/src/ciste/routes.clj
09:29	duck1123	And here's an example of some of the routes in action https://github.com/duck1123/jiksnu/blob/master/src/jiksnu/routes.clj
09:30	duck1123	I really need to go back and fix up that namespace. I haven't needed to touch it in a while
09:30	fliebel	duck1123: So you basically have your own "regex" format?
09:32	duck1123	fliebel: each "predicate" (still need a better name) can read data from the matcher and use that to determine if the request matches. For HTTP routes, I just use Clout. But I can use this system for any request/response system
09:33	fliebel	ah
09:34	fliebel	interlude: How are checkout deps in lein supposed to work? I made a checkouts folder, but dependency resolution doesn;t work.
09:35	fliebel	If I add them to the project.clj, lein deps errors, if I don't I don't get the deps of the checkout deps.
09:36	duck1123	I believe checkouts adds those source folders to the classpath, but you still need to install the artifact for maven's dependency resolution
09:36	duck1123	a simple lein install in that project once should do it
10:02	kzar	Where's the function to take an array map and filter away some of the keys? I'm sure someone showed me in the past but I can't find it
10:04	bendlas	kzar: are you looking for &(dissoc {:foo "foo" :bar "bar" :moo "moo"} :foo :bar)
10:04	cemerick	kzar: select-keys
10:04	cemerick	dissoc will do, too; depends on whether you know which ones to keep vs. which ones to drop
10:05	bendlas	xctly
10:05	kzar	cemerick bendlas: cheers
10:05	kzar	did the trick :)
10:05	cemerick	dammit! No pint.
10:27	ninjudd	cemerick: of bacon?
10:28	cemerick	ninjudd: frightening :-)
10:40	Bahman	How can I make an executable jar out of lein project?
10:41	Fossi	,(macroexpand (let [a 1] (let [b 2] 3)
10:41	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
10:41	Fossi	,(macroexpand (let [a 1] (let [b 2] 3)))
10:41	clojurebot	3
10:41	Fossi	,(macroexpand '(let [a 1] (let [b 2] 3)))
10:41	clojurebot	(let* [a 1] (let [b 2] 3))
10:41	Fossi	why doesn't the second let not get expanded?
10:42	bendlas	because macroexpand and macroexpand-all always work on the outermost form
10:42	bendlas	to do full expansion, you need to walk the source tree
10:43	bendlas	i think there might be a helper for that somewhere in contrib
10:44	fliebel	clojure.walk/macroexpand-all
10:44	bendlas	it's clojure.walk/macroexpand-all
10:44	Borkdude	What is the best thing to use in emacs for java support?
10:44	bendlas	yep
10:44	Borkdude	I mean compiling etc
10:44	Fossi	thanks i'll try
10:45	bendlas	Borkdude: (shell-command "eclipse") IMO
10:45	klauern	Bahman: I haven't done it before, but I would think that specifying a :main in your project.clj and then doing `lein uberjar` would be enough to get it working
10:46	Bahman	klauern: Thanks.
10:46	Borkdude	\
10:46	fliebel	Does core.match provide access to all bindings? Like a macro has a hidden &env variable.
10:47	klauern	See `lein help sample` for an exploded project.clj with mention of how the :main should look
10:47	klauern	or easier: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/stable/sample.project.clj
10:47	Fossi	is clojure.walk new in 1.3?
10:47	klauern	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/stable/sample.project.clj#L95-L100
10:47	Bahman	klauern: Excellent...thanks again.
10:48	Fossi	ah, just too dumb to type
10:48	klauern	love that GitHub line highlighting thing
10:50	dfilimon	hi everyone! i'm trying to develop my first larger clojure program and i need to extend JPanel and override its paintComponent method in the process
10:50	dfilimon	i've made new class with gen-class and overrode the paintComponent method
10:50	dfilimon	but i also want to first call the superclass' implementation before i do my own drawing
10:51	dfilimon	will simply calling (.paintComponent this) work?
10:54	churib	,(meta ^test 'x)
10:54	clojurebot	nil
10:55	churib	,(meta (with-meta 'x {:key :myval}))
10:55	clojurebot	{:key :myval}
10:55	churib	why does the former not work?
10:55	Bahman	What are the parameters to '-main'? only [args]?
10:56	Chousuke_	churib: it puts the metadata on the (quote x) list, not the symbol x
10:57	Chousuke_	,(meta '^meta x)
10:57	clojurebot	{:tag meta}
10:57	churib	Chousuke_: aah, thanks!
10:57	Chousuke_	^ is a read-time thing which is why it works like that.
10:58	churib	yes, of course. Didn't thought about that...
10:58	Chousuke	it's not obvious :)
10:58	TimMc	dfilimon: Do you actually need to call the super's paintComponent?
10:59	dfilimon	i don't really think i need to, but that's how it seems to be done in every java tutorial
10:59	dfilimon	anyway, i just tried something that seemed to work
10:59	dfilimon	i exposed the paintComponent method in the superclass under a different name
10:59	dfilimon	and then called that
11:00	dfilimon	but that really feels like a nasty hack
11:01	TimMc	dfilimon: proxy-super
11:01	dfilimon	but i'm not using proxy at all, i'm using gen-class
11:01	TimMc	appears to be a way to call a superclass' method from inside a proxy.
11:01	TimMc	ah
11:02	fliebel	Does let expose a hidden variable with all the bindings?
11:03	TimMc	dfilimon: Here's how I made a Swing app -- I just proxied a JComponent as a canvas: https://github.com/timmc/CS4300-hw6/blob/master/src/hw6/core.clj#L25
11:04	dfilimon	thanks for that!
11:04	cemerick	fliebel: "hidden variable"?
11:05	fliebel	cemerick: Yea, like a macro exposes &env
11:05	cemerick	ah; nope
11:05	dfilimon	TimMc: will that work when resizing?
11:06	fliebel	... or any other way to get to all the binding of a let
11:06	TimMc	dfilimon: I don't recall.
11:08	klauern	Bahman: If it follows java, it's probably analagous to "public void main (String[] args), "
11:10	TimMc	dfilimon: I think that app was not resizable. However, in a different app, I see that I added a (proxy'd) ComponentListener: https://github.com/timmc/CS4300-HW3/blob/master/src/timmcHW3/core.clj#L525
11:12	Kototama	hi, what's the best solution to have a bidirectional communication between two clojure processes?
11:13	dfilimon	TimMc: right now, i'm unsure whether to go for gen-classes of my own or try using proxies like you did
11:13	lucian	Kototama: possibly sockets
11:16	scgilardi	fliebel: here's a let variant that exposes bindings (has had approximately zero testing) https://gist.github.com/1370491
11:18	Kototama	i guess java pipes are more the solution but i was expecting something from clojure here
11:18	fliebel	scgilardi: yay. Only I don;t feel like patching clojure.match to use that ;)
11:19	fliebel	I'll just opt for the moustache approach.
11:20	clgv	fliebel: scgilardi's macro has the disadvantag to show you every binding from &env and not just the ones from the let.
11:22	clgv	or was that the intention?
11:22	fliebel	clgv: Hm, I guess it't better to use argv directly.
11:22	clgv	you might use destructure from clojure.core
11:25	fliebel	Basically what I want to do is (match [1 2 3] [a 2 c] (f {:a 1 :c 3})) as a macro, so that you only need to supply the pattern and function.
11:27	Kototama	or maybe that: http://clj-me.cgrand.net/2009/11/18/are-pipe-dreams-made-of-promises/
11:28	cemerick	samaaron: feh, I should have thought about doing the automation in overtone from the start :-P
11:29	tsdh	technomancy: Hi. I'm just trying to convert my documentation generator into a standalone leiningen project, but I have a bootstrap issue.
11:29	samaaron	cemerick: it would be totally possible, but might be a bit of overkill for such a simple task (firing up a JVM and a SC ServeR)
11:30	samaaron	cemerick: this might work for you: http://sox.sourceforge.net/
11:30	tsdh	technomancy: The plugin project's deps are clojure and hiccup, but since its sources reside in src/leiningen/gendoc.clj, invoking "lein <whatever>" wants to eval that and errors because hiccup is not there...
11:30	cemerick	I don't usually write scripts, but when I do, I like to wait for a JVM first.
11:32	cemerick	samaaron: certainly seems right; don't know how I didn't find that before. :-/ Might do it in overtone anyway, just as an excuse to see the relevant parts of the API.
11:32	cemerick	thanks in any case :-)
11:33	samaaron	cemerick: cool - it might also be the case that we need to brush up the wav output parts of Overtone too. It's been a while since I recorded some output.
11:33	samaaron	cemerick: the documentation is pretty sketchy in this area, so it would be useful use this experiment to beef things up.
11:34	samaaron	cemerick: I can totally help you work out what's necessary to get it to work if you like.
11:34	michael_campbell	Going to be one of those days... can't even spell my name right.
11:34	cemerick	samaaron: thanks; I've got you on speed dial in case I hit a wall ;-)
11:35	samaaron	cemerick: the "Overtone bat phone"!
11:35	cemerick	right on
11:37	cemerick	samaaron: is there autodoc somewhere?
11:37	samaaron	what's autodoc?
11:37	cemerick	samaaron: it's what produces e.g. clojure.github.com/clojure/
11:37	cemerick	http://clojure.github.com/clojure/
11:38	samaaron	ah, nice
11:38	samaaron	no, we don't have that
11:38	samaaron	does it use the namespaces, fn names and docstrings to generate the docs?
11:38	cemerick	right
11:38	samaaron	well we're jam full of docstrings
11:40	cemerick	samaaron: If you're interested, I'll see about adding autodoc to the project.clj; you could add the results to the pages so it appears as a subdir on http://overtone.github.com/
11:40	cemerick	s/pages/pages branch
11:40	samaaron	sounds perfect
11:41	samaaron	btw, do you know if BG lurks around in irc?
11:41	cemerick	very occasionally
11:41	cemerick	G0SUB is his handle.
11:41	samaaron	nice
11:41	samaaron	he had some advice regarding licensing
11:42	samaaron	Overtone is currently MIT and he was suggesting Eclipse or GPL
11:42	cemerick	Certainly gives you more latitude for e.g. selling a supported version
11:43	fliebel	$findfn 1 '(1)
11:43	lazybot	[clojure.core/xml-seq clojure.core/vector clojure.core/pvalues clojure.core/list]
11:43	samaaron	yup, that was one of the arguments
11:44	cemerick	I think you have a wide array of commercialization opportunities, really.
11:53	samaaron	cemerick: it would be interesting to explore them
12:00	zerokarmaleft	mmm, the moog minimoog overtone select badass series, just 3k quid
12:01	samaaron	zerokarmaleft: or you could build your own minimoog within Overtone for free ;-)
12:02	zerokarmaleft	true, i think the attraction to moogs is largely to decorate studio apartments
12:03	cemerick	samaaron: see, you shoulda thrown in an ipad with touchosc preinstalled for £4k ;-)
12:03	samaaron	cemerick: are you the first customer? ;-)
12:04	cemerick	I'm just the ideas guy :-P
12:05	cemerick	I didn't even know what a moog was before ducking it.
12:05	samaaron	it would be cool to have a dedicated touch display that had an ethernet port and talked OSC
12:05	samaaron	I imagine trusting wifi at gigs isn't that sensible...
12:05	cemerick	why would it need to be wired?
12:05	cemerick	dedicated secured wireless?
12:06	cemerick	hard to jam on a thing trailing an ethernet cable, perhaps shrug
12:06	samaaron	cemerick: exactly and just fewer moving parts to go wrong
12:06	gtrak	bluetooth?
12:07	gtrak	samaaron, what order of magnitude of latency are you dealing with right now?
12:07	samaaron	gtrak: from where to where?
12:07	cemerick	I think an android-based overtone/touchosc "appliance" sold with "premier" auto-updating, smooth documentation and a crazy asset library tucked in would be a killer offering that would see a lot of interest.
12:08	gtrak	with the matrix-button-box to sound
12:08	gtrak	through overtone, through supercollider
12:08	samaaron	gtrak: ah, super low - 10s of ms
12:09	gtrak	well, the jump from say 5 to 20ms is meaningful, 20 to 60 is just as meaningful i think
12:10	samaaron	gtrak: I measured it a while ago and it was plenty fast. Sadly I forget the numbers though. However, when I play the monome I can't perceive any latency
12:12	nickmbailey	:q
12:12	nickmbailey	doh
12:18	kzar	I use org.apache.commons.codec.binary for Hex and Base64 but now I need Base16 and I can't see it there. Anyone know of a Base16 library?
12:20	lucian	kzar: it should be easy to implement with java's Integer
12:28	hiredman_	~ping
12:28	clojurebot	PONG!
12:42	Borkdude	Did I miss anything on Java in emacs while I was disconnected?
12:43	nDuff	Who's baby is the Clojure/conj survey? It's only allowing one selection each for favorite/good/excellent/poor talks
12:44	rabbler	:nDuff, I had the same issue.
12:44	cemerick	nDuff: I've emailed them, and thickey tweeted them, but…
12:44	samaaron	I emailed them too...
12:44	samaaron	:-)
12:44	Raynes	Yeah, I was just about to whine.
12:45	rabbler	meaning that I had the same 'concern'. But I already submitted.
12:45	Raynes	I mean, it isn't fair if I can only select my own talk as my favorite. ;)
12:45	samaaron	Raynes: you can even select your talk as your favourite AND as excellent!
12:46	Raynes	Heh
12:46	cemerick	I wonder if they'll send us our ratings
12:46	Raynes	cemerick: I hope not.
12:46	cemerick	Raynes: oh, please :-P
12:46	cemerick	you killed it
12:46	rabbler	raynes: your presentation was awesome.
12:47	samaaron	Raynes: it's super hard to have any idea how your talk is being perceived when you're doing the speaking
12:47	Raynes	Oh I know, but I'd hate for others to feel lesser in the shadow of my greatness.
12:47	cemerick	nice
12:47	samaaron	hail almighty greatness!
12:47	Borkdude	haha
12:48	rabbler	samaaron: That is why rotten fruit/veg should be brought to cons. Then you know if you are tanking.
12:48	samaaron	"Turn your phone off - that's rude!"
12:48	cemerick	samaaron: I know, it's tough to tell how things are going over those standing ovations ;-)
12:48	Raynes	I did feel pretty fantastic after the talk. For example, I seem to recall telling chouser "good luck following that" while putting my laptop away.
12:48	Borkdude	I saw Rich programmed on a national exit poll in linux magazine of 2010, so probably I know who the auther of this survey code is? ;-)
12:48	samaaron	Raynes: haha, you smug mofo
12:49	cemerick	poor chouser got jammed up :-D
12:49	Raynes	I think I had two favorite talks. samaaron was one of them.
12:50	samaaron	Raynes: you're too kind
12:50	cemerick	samaaron's is going to be at least one SD above anyone else
12:50	Raynes	The other was Spiewak's functional data structure talk.
12:50	samaaron	yeah, sadly I missed Daniel's talk - I was taking it easy before my own
12:50	samaaron	I'm looking forward to the video though
12:51	Raynes	I really enjoyed Stuart Sierra's talk, but they can't all be my favorites.
12:51	michael_campbell	Spiewak's was as much performance art as a talk. I loved it.
12:52	dfilimon	guys - question: i want to represent some sort of regular polygon in my code. i would be tempted to make a record or structure it somehow. should i rather leave it a map?
12:53	devn	Raynes: technomancy ninjudd -- good to hear you guys are going to devote efforts to the same build tool
12:53	Raynes	Build tool powers -- UNITE!
12:54	devn	Alphazord megazord power, NOW!
12:54	samaaron	dfilimon: I tend to start out with a map first - and if it becomes a perf bottle-neck I'll move to a record
12:54	dfilimon	can i restructure records like maps?
12:54	dfilimon	*destructure
12:54	devn	samaaron: Unfortunately I didn't get to see your talk -- had to leave the last day right after Craig's talk.
12:54	devn	I really liked Craig's talk.
12:54	samaaron	dfilimon: it also depends how extensible you see the structure - maps are only fast if you know all the keys at compile time
12:55	dfilimon	samaaron: i will not be adding more entries to the maps
12:55	Raynes	devn: Unfortunately, samaaron won the Dancing On Stage During A Presentation badge instead of me.
12:56	technomancy	devn: yeah, I'm looking forward to rolling on 2.0
12:56	samaaron	dfilimon: I'd still start with a map, and if after perf measurement you see an improvement with records, then use them - the transition is simple
12:57	dfilimon	also, i'm feeling somewhat uncomfortable not having types for everything… is this normal for a beginner?
12:58	Raynes	Depending on your background, most likely.
12:58	Borkdude	dfilimon: everything has a type, but they're not always relevant
12:58	samaaron	dfilimon: everything does have a type
12:59	technomancy	dakrone: how hard would it be to support a bring-your-own-thread-pool model?
12:59	technomancy	for clj-http?
12:59	dfilimon	yes they do, but if i put stuff in maps, most things are just maps, they don't have a type per-se
12:59	cemerick	samaaron: re: "maps are only fast if you know all the keys at compile time": I think you meant records
12:59	samaaron	cemerick: yep, I totally meant records :-)
13:00	devn	technomancy: I'm going to continue to bug you on the status of clojars -- is it ready for local dev work yet?
13:00	cemerick	dfilimon: you can attach metadata to maps to indicate "type"
13:00	cemerick	used most often with multimethods, in my experience
13:00	samaaron	dfilimon: everything you throw in a map does have types, they're just not statically declared by default
13:00	devn	technomancy: I'd like to do a bit of design and help make clojars better
13:00	cemerick	,(type ^{:type :foobar} {:a 5 :b 6})
13:00	clojurebot	:foobar
13:00	Raynes	technomancy, devn: Whatever you do, if you do anything for clojars, make the usernames not be case sensitive.
13:01	danlarkin	case insensitivity is bad
13:01	devn	:) I want to work on it, but it sounds like a local dev clojars (per technomancy) is a real pain to set up. There was some work by hiredman IIRC that would make that easier.
13:01	dfilimon	cemerick: did not know about that, thanks!
13:01	Borkdude	devn: and allow me to remove a jar file I accidentally pushed
13:01	technomancy	danlarkin: case insensitivity on lookup is, but case insensitivity on validation rules is not necessarily
13:01	cemerick	dfilimon: read the docs for type so you know what it's doing ;-)
13:02	technomancy	devn: I mostly need to knock out this lein-as-a-lib question since the merge conflict potential is blocking others. then I'll be ready to roll on clojars
13:02	Raynes	danlarkin: Case sensitivity is terrible when you can't remember if you signed up as Raynes raynes rayne Rayne DiscipleRayne disciplerayne et al.
13:02	cemerick	I have one thought for clojars if the suggestion box is open. :-P
13:02	dfilimon	also, unrelated question: why is it that the default repl doesn't import namespaces like clojure.repl or clojure.java.javadoc by default?
13:03	hiredman	win 20
13:03	dfilimon	or rather, why aren't functions like doc always available without having to import them?
13:03	samaaron	dfilimon: it doesn't make sense to pollute all namespaces with repl/javadoc fns by default
13:04	dfilimon	sure, not all the time, just when playing around in the repl
13:04	dakrone	technomancy: it's actually already built-in, just not documented
13:04	technomancy	dakrone: cool
13:04	dfilimon	always having a help function seems to me pretty useful
13:04	technomancy	dakrone: is it easy to just use the built-in agent thread pool
13:04	technomancy	?
13:04	devn	maybe clojars should just get a rewrite? :X
13:05	dakrone	technomancy: call core/make-reusable-conn-manager and bind the result to core/connection-manager whenever you make calls
13:05	technomancy	devn: it works amazingly considering it hasn't been updated in about two years
13:05	devn	technomancy: nod ato did a great job without much work.
13:06	technomancy	dakrone: rock. I want to make sure ability to share pools is considered a basic feature for every library that uses them.
13:06	technomancy	http://blog.ometer.com/2011/11/13/task-dispatch-and-nonblocking-io-in-scala/ <- actually a pretty interesting read on the subject
13:06	dakrone	technomancy: it's not documented because I wasn't sure of the API, lemme know how it works for you
13:06	technomancy	apparently they really wish they had Clojure's send/send-off pools built-in
13:07	technomancy	dakrone: it's for zkim actually. =)
13:07	devn	(maybe)
13:07	technomancy	though I don't know if he's having trouble with clj-http specifically, I just know in general the problem needs attention
13:10	algernon	hrm. I have a bit of a problem, possibly not clojure related, but perhaps someone here can shed a light on where I should look.. I'm using Storm, and from one of the bolts, I'm poking redis (via the accession lib). At work, everything's fine, and all that. On my home box, however, a new connection gets opened for each message passing through the bolt. I'm at a loss why this would happen. :\|
13:11	dakrone	devn: eh? what's this about the clojuredocs' API?
13:11	dfilimon	cemerick: (= ^{:type 'cookie} {:x 1} {:x 1}) this seems to be true
13:11	dfilimon	,(= ^{:type 'cookie} {:x 1} {:x 1})
13:11	clojurebot	true
13:12	dfilimon	why is this?
13:12	cemerick	dfilimon: yes, metadata does not impact equality
13:12	cemerick	concrete type doesn't impact equality either
13:12	cemerick	(= (array-map :a 5) (hash-map :a 5))
13:12	cemerick	bah
13:12	cemerick	,(= (array-map :a 5) (hash-map :a 5))
13:12	clojurebot	true
13:12	Raynes	&(identical? ^{:type 'cookie} {:x 1} {:x 1})
13:12	lazybot	⇒ false
13:12	devn	dakrone: Since we're talking about adding a "shot of easy" to Clojure, I really like the idea of bringing ClojureDocs into the fold as a sensible default development dependency
13:13	devn	dakrone: Or for the time being have a "sensible newbie project.clj" which includes the clojuredocs-api dependency
13:13	ibdknox	clojuredocs-api
13:13	ibdknox	?
13:13	dfilimon	hmm, okay then; i'm not sure if i agree with the principle but anyway
13:14	devn	ibdknox: there's a clojuredocs api querying thingamajig out there somewhere, im pretty sure dakrone wrote it
13:14	ibdknox	devn: ah, as in for the repl?
13:14	devn	yes
13:14	devn	It's handy.
13:14	ibdknox	cool :)
13:14	devn	It's great for newcomers, and dumb people like me. :)
13:15	ibdknox	me too!
13:15	cemerick	dfilimon: Clojure just pushes further in that direction than, e.g. Java does:
13:15	cemerick	,(= (java.util.ArrayList.) (java.util.LinkedList.))
13:15	clojurebot	true
13:16	dfilimon	about the clojuredocs api, how do i add it as a dev-dependency? is it an actual package?
13:17	dakrone	dfilimon: https://github.com/dakrone/cd-client
13:17	dakrone	it can be used from lein
13:17	ibdknox	yeah that's not a very useful name :p
13:17	devn	clojuredocs-client or something would be easier to find with google juice
13:18	dakrone	devn: yea, it's unfortunately named
13:18	devn	dakrone: it shouldn't be a big deal to rename right?
13:18	dfilimon	dakrone: thanks!
13:19	dakrone	devn: no, good idea, I will change it
13:19	devn	i guess where I'm headed by bringing up cd-client and so on is that it'd be cool if you could say "lein suite", "lein juice" or something -- which would fill your project.clj with some nice sensible tools for local development.
13:20	Raynes	devn: ibdknox and I are working on a new 'lein new' that uses templates and a little code gluing things together. You'll be able to distribute any kind of templates you want after we're done.
13:20	devn	One reason I love noir is that it made a lot of the annoying dependency wrangling I used to have to do with ring a lot simpler
13:21	dakrone	I really just need to rewrite it, it's very old
13:21	devn	Raynes: that's awesome. Exactly what I want.
13:21	devn	dakrone: I'll help.
13:21	devn	dakrone: I have time today after work if you want to remote pair with zkim's pair.io
13:21	dakrone	devn: timezone?
13:21	devn	CST
13:21	devn	IIRC you're EST?
13:22	Raynes	Aw, I want pair.io. :<
13:23	dfilimon	does anyone use the user.clj config file in ~/.clojure to add functionality to the repl?
13:23	dakrone	devn: MST
13:23	dfilimon	and if so, why doesn't it get loaded when i run clojure-jack-in from emacs?
13:24	dakrone	devn: also renamed cd-client to clojuredocs-client and put a redirection notice at cd-client
13:24	devn	dakrone: so what time is it for you right now? It's 12:18PM here.
13:24	dakrone	1 hour earlier
13:25	dakrone	devn: added you to the repo, tonight should work for me for a bit, ping me later?
13:26	devn	dakrone: sounds good. :)
13:26	technomancy	dfilimon: ~/.clojure is not on the classpath. you could add it with :dev-resources-path "/home/you/.clojure" in project.clj if you like
13:27	dfilimon	technomancy: thanks!
13:28	cemerick	the conj survey is fixed
13:28	ibdknox	there's a conj survey?
13:28	cemerick	ibdknox: should be in your inbox?
13:29	ibdknox	never got it.. but there was also some weirdness with my ticket
13:29	devn	technomancy: so, with marmalade on 24.0.91.1 -- Which packages do I need to get a nice working REPL with paredit
13:29	ibdknox	so it could've been related to that
13:29	devn	technomancy: does durendal still work?
13:30	michael_campbell	ibdknox: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/G9H3RF5
13:30	ibdknox	michael_campbell: thanks
13:33	technomancy	devn: hmm... probably? I mostly used it for jack-in.
13:53	ibdknox	dakrone: when you guys redo the client you should use colorize :D
13:53	cemerick	ibdknox: colorize?
13:54	ibdknox	cemerick: ansi-color wrapping for console output :)
13:54	ibdknox	(blue "hey " (red "what's up?")) and so on
13:54	ibdknox	or (color :blue "hey")
13:54	ibdknox	cemerick: https://github.com/ibdknox/colorize
13:54	ibdknox	I made that and watchtower at the conj
13:55	ibdknox	https://github.com/ibdknox/watchtower
13:56	tsdh	Is there some kind of "namespace reset"? Say, you've :use-ed some namespace in your repl, then get a warning because of name clash, and now you want to require it only :as foo.
13:56	devn	ibdknox: not sure if this at all interesting to you given it is in ruby, but my coworker Nick whipped this up, https://github.com/randland/colorful
13:57	devn	it adds backgrounds, blinks, resets, etc.
13:57	ibdknox	I have reset, I didn't really have a use for blink and such, though I should probably add it
13:57	cemerick	ibdknox: what is this "console" of which you speak?
13:58	ibdknox	devn: the cool thing about this is 256 color support :) I'll have to look into that
13:58	ibdknox	cemerick: terminal :p
13:58	raek_	tsdh: you can use remove-ns and then start over with that ns
13:58	cemerick	And here I did that manually https://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/nrepl/cmdline.clj
13:58	cemerick	ibdknox: mine is a dry irc wit ;-)
13:58	cemerick	or, none at all, depending on who you ask
13:58	ibdknox	haha
13:59	tsdh	raek: Yes, that did the trick. Thanks a ton.
13:59	ibdknox	cemerick: (blue ..) is just so much prettier ;)
13:59	raek	np :)
14:00	cemerick	ibdknox: I agree wholeheartedly.
14:00	cemerick	I was dumbfounded when chouser pointed me at those ANSI color codes, etc.
14:00	ibdknox	lol
14:00	cemerick	hardcore WTF
14:00	ibdknox	yeah it's pretty ridiculous
14:00	cemerick	can I get some CSS up in here?
14:00	ibdknox	yay for abstraction!
14:00	raek	tsdh: another more fine-grained approach is to use ns-unmap to remove mappings of the conflicting names and then use refer-clojure to bring in the original mappings
14:01	tsdh	raek: That could have spared me hundreds of skrew-up-ns/,sayonaraRET/M-xclojure-jack-inRET-cycles. :-)
14:01	ibdknox	watchtower is kind of neat: composable file/dir watchers
14:01	ibdknox	I'm on a composability kick lately
14:02	tsdh	raek: Hm, since compiling anew is so fast, I prefer the simple brute-force method. :-)
14:03	raek	yeah, it's easier to get the namespace into a known state using remove-ns
14:04	raek	but ns-unmap can be useful e.g. when you want to re-evaluate a defonce or a defmulti
14:04	raek	(so I though it could be a good idea to mention it too)
14:16	amalloy	cemerick: i never got a survey either
14:17	amalloy	oh, that's a lie. wrong inbox
14:17	tsdh	raek: Sure, I'll try to remember it, but I'm low on RAM.
14:20	technomancy	I wish ns-unmap were exposed better by slime
14:22	jcromartie	there's something weird about ring/ring-jetty-adapter
14:22	jcromartie	on clojars
14:22	jcromartie	lein deps fails to get it with some zip file error
14:22	amalloy	cemerick: i note that the age groups are "under 17" and "18-24", so Raynes has no correct box to check?
14:22	jcromartie	it says the POM is invalid and then throws a ZipException
14:22	Raynes	I just checked
14:23	Raynes	18-24
14:23	Raynes	I'm close enough to 18 to not particularly care.
14:23	jcromartie	I'm using [ring/ring-jetty-adapter "1.0.0-RC1"]
14:23	amalloy	jcromartie: rm -rf ~/.m2? fixes all kinds of problems :P
14:23	jcromartie	hm :) OK
14:23	ibdknox	it really does
14:23	ibdknox	it's magical
14:24	technomancy	except the problem of "it's taking forever"
14:24	ibdknox	a magical nuclear bomb for all your maven woes
14:24	jcromartie	bingo
14:24	jcromartie	thanks guys
14:24	jcromartie	I just rm'ed ~/.m2/repository/ring
14:25	amalloy	technomancy: that's an opportunity, not a problem. downloading the whole internet is just so dang exciting
14:32	tsdh	Does anyone use core.logic here? I wanted to play around with it, but as soon as I do (defrel man x), I get Unable to resolve symbol: to-stream in this context...
14:32	jcromartie	LauJensen: is there a ClojureQL release I can use with 1.3
14:32	tsdh	That's with 0.6.5 and clojure-1.3.0.
14:35	ibdknox	jcromartie: out of curiosity, is there something specific missing from Korma that makes it not work for you?
14:37	jcromartie	ibdknox: In the little bit of time I spent with Korma, I found problems with joins and complex relationships in our DB schema that basically "broke" everything nice about Korma.
14:37	jcromartie	ibdknox: and is there a way around the "n + 1 selects" problem?
14:37	ibdknox	jcromartie: yep :)
14:37	ibdknox	jcromartie: if you use (join) instead of (with)
14:37	jcromartie	basically, I find that being able to compose ClojureQL relations and sling them around is a lot more useful for our nasty NASTY db
14:38	jcromartie	but (join) doesn't work with has-one has-many, does it?
14:38	ibdknox	jcromartie: sure it does
14:38	jcromartie	oh ok
14:38	ibdknox	jcromartie: it's literally the equivalent of writing a sql join clause
14:38	jcromartie	I see
14:38	ibdknox	jcromartie: so you can build out whatever sql is necessary
14:38	jcromartie	is (join) documented?
14:39	ibdknox	jcromartie: that being said, if you have a couple of simple examples, I'd love for you to shoot an email to the korma list. :) I want to make sure it can handle as much as possible
14:39	jcromartie	another thing that bugged me in Korma: it doesn't normalize (all lowercase keywords) the columns like ClojureQL does
14:39	jcromartie	it makes it hard when your DB has strange capitalization going on
14:39	jcromartie	like ours
14:40	ibdknox	jcromartie: ah, part of that is due to the use of quoted identifiers, which seems to be the only safe solution to the problem
14:40	amalloy	jcromartie: blame your db for that one?
14:40	jcromartie	yeah
14:40	amalloy	like, how should it "normalize" a column name like "the user's name goes here"
14:40	jcromartie	we have a whole table where the table and all of its columns use the mis-spelling "tranaction"
14:41	ibdknox	jcromartie: I think I can potentially provide a couple things to get let you shoot yourself in the foot (basically don't use quotes at all)
14:41	jcromartie	amalloy: I mean :fooBarBaz should become :foobarbaz
14:41	jcromartie	k
14:41	jcromartie	yeah
14:41	jcromartie	:)
14:44	ibdknox	jcromartie: in any case, I'd love to hear your grievances! It's the only way I can make korma better :)
14:50	jcromartie	ibdknox: sure :)
14:50	jcromartie	ibdknox: I do like what I see with Korma
14:50	jcromartie	I hate waffling back and forth
14:50	ibdknox	I know and I want to make sure you don't have to :)
14:50	jcromartie	one thing I really like about ClojureQL is the way the returned objects just represent the query
14:51	jcromartie	and deref gets the data
14:51	jcromartie	while in Korma the default is to execute
14:51	gfrederi1ks	$findfn [4 5] [7] [4 5 7]
14:51	lazybot	[clojure.set/union clojure.core/lazy-cat clojure.core/concat clojure.core/into]
14:51	jcromartie	and sql-only or dry-run is the extra work
14:52	ibdknox	(select* ..) is the equivalent for that
14:52	ibdknox	if you want to carry around the query
14:52	ibdknox	seems the same as (-> (table "blah"... to me
14:53	ibdknox	you can also ask for the sql in that case using as-sql
14:54	ibdknox	(def my-query (-> (select user) (where {:id [> 3]})))
14:54	ibdknox	(as-sql my-query)
14:54	ibdknox	or (exec my-query)
14:55	jcromartie	yeah
14:56	jcromartie	I wish select and select* were swapped :)
14:56	ibdknox	haha I see
14:56	jcromartie	to make deferred execution the default
14:56	manutter	anybody else using cssgen under 1.3? I'm getting "Could not locate clojure/contrib/generic/arithmetic__init.class..." on compile
14:56	ibdknox	well, I think for 90% of cases execution is the default
14:56	jcromartie	it just seems like a cleaner abstraction
14:56	manutter	cssgen 0.2.5-SNAPSHOT
14:56	jcromartie	ibdknox: probably so
14:57	jcromartie	ibdknox: I think that in my case, I end up juggling and composing views because of the database schema
14:58	ibdknox	jcromartie: absolutely, I don't think an extra * is so bad for that though :p
14:58	jcromartie	no
14:58	amalloy	jcromartie: define an alias: se1ect can return the sql
14:59	ibdknox	amalloy: just for you
15:00	jcromartie	amalloy: no
15:00	jcromartie	:)
15:00	technomancy	ibdknox: that would be swell; I've always wanted to refer to clj-http as gnir
15:00	ibdknox	technomancy: haha
15:01	technomancy	not to mention clj-time as chrono
15:02	ibdknox	does someone have chrono?
15:03	ibdknox	wow
15:03	ibdknox	it's open
15:03	ibdknox	hmm
15:03	brehaut	amalloy: https://github.com/fredericksgary/lib-2367
15:03	jcromartie	ibdknox: one thing I have a problem with is where a logical "entity" in our system might exist across tables
15:04	amalloy	brehaut: classy
15:04	amalloy	glad to see someone following through on my crazy ideas
15:04	gfrederi1ks	which idea was I following through on?
15:04	ibdknox	jcromartie: is that addressed by clojureQL somehow?
15:04	brehaut	gfrederi1ks: naming lib-2367 lib-2367
15:04	technomancy	ibdknox: I wrote an early version of clj-time and called it chrono
15:04	technomancy	but that was before clojars
15:04	gfrederi1ks	brehaut: I thought that was your idea
15:05	jcromartie	ibdknox: by being able to (def some-complex-thing (joins and unions and stuff))
15:05	brehaut	gfrederi1ks: amalloys
15:05	brehaut	i was just the proxy
15:05	technomancy	disappointed to see it renamed, but I had dropped it by that point
15:05	jcromartie	ibdknox: whereas in Korma I am constrained by Korma's idea that entities <-> tables
15:05	ibdknox	jcromartie: hmm not really
15:05	jcromartie	no?
15:05	gfrederi1ks	what do people do when they want hiccup to make formatted html?
15:05	gfrederi1ks	decide not to want it?
15:06	ibdknox	jcromartie: just define that as the base of your query and compose thereafter
15:07	ibdknox	jcromartie: (def myent (-> (select* some-ent) (join some-other-thing) (join something-else)))
15:07	jcromartie	hm
15:07	ibdknox	(-> my-ent (where (= :cool 3)) (exec))
15:09	jcromartie	ibdknox: what does (fields) do in defentity?
15:09	ibdknox	(entity-fields ...) is the one you want
15:09	ibdknox	and adds fields by default to any query that uses that entity
15:10	jcromartie	right
15:10	ibdknox	I may have screwed that up with explicit join though, I'll take a look later
15:11	amalloy	gfrederi1ks: i know prxml and data.xml have a formatting setting; i wouldn't be surprised if hiccup does too
15:11	jcromartie	ibdknox: and how about being able to specify a query modifier like "TOP 1"
15:11	jcromartie	or something like that
15:11	ibdknox	jcromartie: that I don't have yet, does clojureQL allow that?
15:11	jcromartie	yes
15:11	ibdknox	jcromartie: what's it look like?
15:11	jcromartie	(modify table "TOP 5")
15:12	ibdknox	ah
15:12	ibdknox	ok
15:12	jcromartie	so I can say (defn top [this n] (modify this (str "TOP " n)))
15:12	ibdknox	well that should be relatively trivial to add
15:14	gfrederi1ks	amalloy: cool, thx
15:14	ibdknox	cemerick: when are you thinking of putting up the podcasts you did at the conj? :)
15:21	TimMc	Is there a way to get Leiningen to do static checking on my Clojure code (class not found, etc.) that references some Java classes, but without having to tell it where all the Java's dependencies live?
15:21	pmenon	,(+ 1 2)
15:21	clojurebot	3
15:21	pmenon	yay
15:21	pmenon	lol
15:22	pmenon	,(reduce + (take 10 (range)))
15:22	clojurebot	45
15:22	daniel__1	pmenon: show off
15:23	TimMc	(I have a Maven-built Java project that I am trying to wedge some Clojure into; the Clojure code is not AOT, and runs against the Java classes that Maven has compiled.)
15:25	daniel__1	i can't find the clojure documentation on the for loop, can anyone help me out?
15:25	TimMc	,(doc for)
15:25	clojurebot	"([seq-exprs body-expr]); List comprehension. Takes a vector of one or more binding-form/collection-expr pairs, each followed by zero or more modifiers, and yields a lazy sequence of evaluations of expr. Collections are iterated in a nested fashion, rightmost fastest, and nested coll-exprs can refer to bindings created in prior binding-forms. Supported modifiers are: :let [binding-form expr ...], ...
15:25	TimMc	daniel__1: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/for
15:26	daniel__1	cheers, i need the examples
15:26	TimMc	daniel__1: and http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/for
15:26	lazybot	Nooooo, that's so out of date! Please see instead http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/for and try to stop linking to rich's repo.
15:26	TimMc	oops! Thanks, lazybot!
15:26	cemerick	ibdknox: First one this Friday.
15:26	cemerick	lazybot: botsnack
15:26	lazybot	cemerick: Thanks! Om nom nom!!
15:26	TimMc	daniel__1: rather, http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/for
15:27	daniel__1	danke schoen
15:27	cemerick	does anyone know why gihub.com/richhickey/clojure is still there at all?
15:28	hiredman	~for
15:28	clojurebot	for is a loop...in Java
15:28	hiredman	~for
15:28	clojurebot	for is not used enough
15:28	hiredman	~for
15:28	clojurebot	for is complected
15:29	hiredman	clojurebot: damn your eyes
15:29	clojurebot	I don't understand.
15:29	hiredman	~for
15:29	clojurebot	for is complected
15:29	hiredman	~for is not a loop
15:29	clojurebot	Roger.
15:29	TimMc	hiredman: Maybe change clojurebot to prefer a factoid it hasn't recently said.
15:29	TimMc	I don't know how annoying that would be to code.
15:29	daniel__1	~let
15:29	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
15:30	TimMc	...and it might encourage people to iterate through the whole sequence.
15:30	amalloy	cemerick: i agree, it should be wiped from the face of the earth
15:31	hiredman	clojurebot: Titim gan éirí ort is irish for "may your recursive calls always be in the tail position"
15:31	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
15:31	cemerick	or maybe just replaced with redirects :-P
15:32	amalloy	cemerick: you could redirect richhickey.github.com/clojure, but not github.com/richhickey/clojure (i think)
15:32	cemerick	right
15:32	cemerick	empty repos with a single link in the readme have a reliable effect tho
15:32	jcromartie	hiredman: having fun?
15:32	hiredman	me?
15:32	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
15:32	hiredman	sure, always
15:33	daaku	i seem to be getting a exception in lein: "java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.KeywordLookupSite.<init>(ILclojure/lang/Keyword;)V", but i'm not sure how to backtrack from the trace: https://gist.github.com/c21a37a3e88c28a0243c
15:34	hiredman	means you are using a library compiled for one version of clojure in a project using a different version
15:34	hiredman	abi compat issue
15:34	cemerick	hiredman: is this the only (persistent) place where you ever commented on REPL protocols, etc? https://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/8b2a851d790ed0cc
15:35	hiredman	yes
15:35	daaku	hiredman: i see. would this happen for different java versions?
15:35	hiredman	actually I just started fiddling with slime.el to see if I could get it to speak nrepl
15:35	hiredman	daaku: no, just different clojure versions
15:36	hiredman	what version of clojure are you using?
15:36	daaku	hiredman: cool, thanks
15:36	daaku	1.3
15:36	hiredman	are you trying to use contrib?
15:36	daaku	i have a working env on one machine, and moving it to another and ran into this after lein deps
15:36	cemerick	hiredman: from a mechanical perspective, that should get a lot easier in the near future
15:36	daaku	i thought i got rid of contrib in my own usage, but i probably missed something, will check that too
15:37	cemerick	replacing commands w/ invocations on the remote side is potentially another story
15:37	hiredman	maybe, I dunno, there are several possible stumbling blocks to completely replacing swank-clojure
15:38	cemerick	and a few more no one knows about yet, I'ms ure
15:42	hiredman	I am sort of surprised there isn't a simple elisp client already (have slime talk to nrepl instead of swank-clojure maybe over ambitious)
15:42	hugod	cemerick: do I remember correctly that nrepl can send multiple replies to a single request?
15:43	cemerick	hiredman: it's hard to get emacs folks to stray ;-)
15:44	cemerick	hugod: yup; that always happens, insofar as the current impl doesn't happen to mix responses that contain e.g. out content and printed value content.
15:45	cemerick	the "spec" doesn't guarantee that separation, but it doesn't make sense to do anything else
15:45	hugod	cemerick: swank is definitely set up for a single reply to each request
15:45	hiredman	well
15:46	cemerick	and slime just always puts out before the value or something?
15:46	hiredman	sort of, but you have a similar separation (at least it seems like it from my mucking around in slime/swank)
15:46	hugod	stream output is handled by separate messages
15:46	cemerick	oh, ok
15:46	hugod	i.e., not linked to a request
15:47	cemerick	oooh.
15:47	cemerick	hrmph
15:48	cemerick	hugod: so multiple clients just get a muxed System/out or somesuch?
15:49	hugod	Been a while since I last looked. I'm just refreshing my memory…
15:49	cemerick	Yeah, I'll be there soon enough too.
15:49	cemerick	I need to knock out this strawman, and then we can all go to town.
15:50	hugod	the stream is connection specific
15:50	hiredman	I think it's more like a session kind of thing, you have a repl session, and you get output for that session
15:51	hiredman	where session is basically via thread id?
15:52	hugod	a session is based on the connection, at least for ritz
15:53	drewr	cemerick: straying isn't the problem
15:54	drewr	it's worse-is-better syndrome
15:54	cemerick	:-)
15:54	cemerick	sure. same-same in this case, perhaps
15:54	drewr	a sort-of working swank setup is still better than anything else
15:55	brehaut	,1.2E3
15:55	clojurebot	1200.0
15:55	brehaut	crap
15:56	TimMc	?
15:56	brehaut	clojure has a lot of variations on valid number literals
15:56	TimMc	not as many as Racket
15:57	brehaut	im glad im not writing a racket parser then
15:57	TimMc	brehaut: Writing a highlighter?
15:57	hiredman	what I really want is ensime
15:57	brehaut	TimMc: yeah
15:58	brehaut	TimMc: https://github.com/brehaut/inc-clojure-brush
15:58	hiredman	which I mostly get with swank-clojure, I just want lexical hilighting
15:58	hiredman	semantic hilighting, or whatever
15:59	brehaut	TimMc: the screenshot there is a bit antiquated; either clone the repo and check out the demo or http://brehaut.net/blog/2011/l_systems
16:00	cemerick	brehaut: in one table, FWIW: http://bit.ly/sfPJc9
16:00	TimMc	brehaut: I am fairly sure that #e1.0+3.0e7i is a valid Racket number literal.
16:00	brehaut	cemerick: thanks! apparently im missing hex numbers too
16:01	TimMc	excuse me, drop the "#e"
16:01	brehaut	TimMc: :O
16:02	TimMc	You can include some mix of exact/inexact, complex/read/imaginary, ratio/decimal/integral, base, exp, pos/neg
16:05	brehaut	,0xffE5
16:05	clojurebot	65509
16:05	brehaut	,0xffE5/3
16:05	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 0xffE5/3>
16:05	jcromartie	ibdknox: what about two-way relationships? do I need to specify those?
16:06	jcromartie	ibdknox: like, (defentity clients (belongs-to client-type)) and (defentity client-type (has-many clients))
16:06	TimMc	brehaut: If only Clojure had a formal spec for its reader...
16:06	brehaut	TimMc: it does; it just happens to be written in java
16:07	TimMc	Self-documenting code, eh?
16:07	brehaut	what other kind is there ;)
16:07	TimMc	I'm just waiting for the self-coding documentation.
16:08	brehaut	,+3
16:08	clojurebot	3
16:08	nDuff	TimMc, I think that's "literate programming". :)
16:08	Raynes	Shh, you'll wake up Tim Daly.
16:08	brehaut	cemerick: your book notes that numbers can be prefixed with a dash, but it doesnt mention +
16:09	TimMc	,[-0 +0]
16:09	clojurebot	[0 0]
16:09	cemerick	brehaut: nice :-D
16:09	cemerick	thanks
16:09	TimMc	,0/0
16:09	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero>
16:11	TimMc	How do clojure.org docs get updated? Do I open a JIRA or what?
16:14	brehaut	TimMc: http://tech.puredanger.com/2011/11/10/improving-clojures-docs/ (although its 500'ing atm)
16:14	brehaut	oh. back again
16:23	TimMc	OK, cool.
16:27	broquaint	What's the recommended way of documenting clojure code?
16:28	brehaut	broquaint: what do you mean?
16:28	brehaut	language style, amount, comments vs doc strings? tools?
16:28	broquaint	Doc strings & tools, brehaut.
16:28	ohpauleez	broquaint: Doc strings on functions are pretty typical, line comments aren't seen a lot because of the structure of code
16:29	ohpauleez	some people use literate style and marginalia
16:29	broquaint	Is there a dominant style across libraries?
16:29	brehaut	http://fogus.me/fun/marginalia/
16:29	ohpauleez	The best example to work from is clojuredocs.org if you don't use the literate style
16:29	ohpauleez	(the docs of clojure itself)
16:29	hiredman	minimal maybe the dominant style
16:30	brehaut	its uncommon to try to put fussy annotations into the docstrings themselves; metadata is a better place for that
16:30	ohpauleez	for sure, minimal is preferred - usually with an example
16:30	broquaint	I've been wondering how much fun/pain it would be to get library docs into clojars.org (ala search.cpan.org) but wasn't sure where to start.
16:31	ohpauleez	broquaint: it's not that painful, you can use an incomplete project of mine as a base: https://github.com/ohpauleez/clopi
16:32	ohpauleez	I pull the package list from clojars, then grab repo details from github and bitbucket
16:32	brehaut	syntax highlighting question: for quotes, [both '(form …) and (quote (form …))] should the heads of lists stop being highlighted as functions?
16:32	broquaint	Thanks, brehaut, ohpauleez & hiredman :)
16:32	ohpauleez	broquaint: totally welcome
16:33	ohpauleez	brehaut: good question: vimclojure leaves highlighting intact when quoted
16:33	amalloy	brehaut: i don't think so
16:34	amalloy	you're still "talking about" a function call, and it should be highlighted as such
16:34	brehaut	cool :)
16:35	brehaut	i can get behind no doing work
16:35	brehaut	s/no/not/
16:48	technomancy	amalloy: hope I didn't come across as to dismissive on the require thread. I'm up for discussing import :as, just wanted to get that thread back on track.
16:49	amalloy	no worries
16:50	technomancy	*too dismissive
16:50	technomancy	when you're pushing for a small change you don't want to get associated with the wilder brainstorming efforts.
16:51	amalloy	i don't really see require/:refer as larger or smaller than import/:as, but i understand the desire to limit scope
16:59	cemerick	amalloy: There was much gnashing of teeth around aliasing of packages years ago. Rich was dead-set against it, IIRC.
16:59	jcromartie	ibdknox: here's one MAJOR point against ClojureQL - no LIKE operator
16:59	cemerick	Things change, of course, so who knows.
17:00	jcromartie	er hm
17:03	hiredman	^- what the hell? underscores?
17:05	cemerick	hrm
17:06	cemerick	My clojars idea from before was: let's make org.clojars.* artifacts available only from their own repo URL
17:08	hiredman	interesting
17:10	cemerick	and don't search that repo's index from clojars.org's web UI unless a checkbox is marked
17:11	technomancy	ooh; I could get behind that
17:11	cemerick	http://clojars.org/search?q=compojure => oh, there's compojure, org.clojars.strongh/compojure "1.0.0-SNAPSHOT"
17:14	brehaut	is it poor form to not specify a groupid on a lein/clojars project?
17:14	technomancy	brehaut: not if you created the project
17:14	technomancy	well...
17:14	technomancy	depends on who you ask I guess. =) larger JVM ecosystem may say yes.
17:14	cemerick	there are differing opinions on this :-)
17:15	TimMc	brehaut: I get twitchy about the potential collisions.
17:15	brehaut	oh dear
17:16	cemerick	I don't think it's a question of collisions but of squatting.
17:16	TimMc	?
17:17	TimMc	brehaut: Why not just do net.brehaut/foo and be done with it?
17:18	brehaut	TimMc: i guess that would work too
17:18	TimMc	I do org.timmc for my stuff.
17:19	TimMc	Or hell brehaut.net/foo :-)
17:19	brehaut	TimMc: now im certain that whatever i do will be wrong :P
17:22	TimMc	Ugh... I'm AOT'ing Clojure, and it doesn't want to compile against Foo.class since Foo.class was compiled against off-path Bar.class.
17:23	TimMc	I don't think I can get Bar.class onto the classpath. Is my mission doomed?
17:26	technomancy	I wonder if clojuresphere could add ecosystem-wide grep.
17:27	ibdknox	lol
17:27	technomancy	ClojureSphere: how many projects have :use with :rename?
17:27	technomancy	bam
17:27	ibdknox	very, very few would be my guess
17:27	technomancy	s/guess/hope/
17:28	ibdknox	I've never seen it used
17:29	ibdknox	except in the example code I saw from chouser once
17:29	TimMc	Huh. Does that rename individual items from the use'd namespace?
17:29	ibdknox	yeah
17:29	broquaint	I feel there should be a more idiomatic way of doing this but can't think what - http://paste.lisp.org/display/125891
17:29	TimMc	Im'ma start using that!
17:29	broquaint	Also what's a good clojure pastebin?
17:30	TimMc	~paste
17:30	clojurebot	paste is http://gist.github.com/
17:30	ibdknox	broquaint: (apply alt (map lit-alt-seq ["my" "print" ...]))
17:30	broquaint	s/lit-alt-seq/lit-conc-seq/ ; oops
17:30	broquaint	ibdknox: alt is a macro :(
17:31	ibdknox	broquaint: the only solution is another macro then :(
17:31	broquaint	Everything can be solved with another layer of macros eh? ;)
17:31	broquaint	Thanks, TimMc.
17:31	ibdknox	basically
17:31	ibdknox	lol
17:31	brehaut	`(lit-conc-seq ~@(stuf)) ;)
17:31	broquaint	:)
17:31	TimMc	(applym alt ...)
17:31	ibdknox	... applym?
17:32	ibdknox	,(doc applym)
17:32	clojurebot	No entiendo
17:32	TimMc	(defmacro applym ...) :-P
17:32	ibdknox	haha :p
17:33	brehaut	the use of macros in fnparse is unfortunate :(
17:34	broquaint	Could you recommend alternative parsing library, brehaut?
17:34	brehaut	broquaint: not really. theres a bunch of combinator libs (mostly parsec ports)
17:34	brehaut	cgrand has parsley that looks intersting but isnt a combinator lib
17:34	brehaut	i want to look into parsley more though
17:35	broquaint	Thanks, will look into it too :)
17:36	brehaut	i think cgrand might have talked about parsley during his conj talk
17:36	brehaut	although perhaps only tangentially
17:37	brehaut	broquaint: https://github.com/relevance/clojure-conj/tree/master/2011-slides
17:42	broquaint	Ooh, slides from clojure-conj, thanks!
17:45	danbell	are clojure charaters != java characters?
17:45	danbell	trying to use isDigit, failing
17:45	amalloy	&(.isDigit \9)
17:45	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: isDigit for class java.lang.Character
17:45	hiredman	how are you trying to use it?
17:45	amalloy	&(Character/isDigit \9)
17:45	lazybot	⇒ true
17:45	danbell	ah
17:46	pjstadig	,(type \9)
17:46	danbell	it's a static method, then?
17:46	clojurebot	java.lang.Character
17:46	danbell	thank you much, all
17:48	brehaut	is it still reasonable to use type rather than just class?
17:48	brehaut	for some reason i thought that the :type metadata was not really the norm these days
17:49	lucian	does anyone know of any news of Clojure on Android?
17:50	samaaron	lucian: it's possible: https://market.android.com/details?id=com.sattvik.clojure_repl&hl=en
17:51	natto	hello, spending inordinate time on this simple issue: (def a {:x :y}); given "x", how get :y? (a (symbol ":x")) does not work
17:52	lucian	samaaron: i know of that, i was wondering if someone knows of anything newer (and ideally feasible)
17:52	samaaron	lucian: it's unclear to me what you mean by that
17:53	brehaut	,({:x :y) :x) ; natto
17:53	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
17:53	brehaut	({:x :y} :x) ; natto
17:53	brehaut	,({:x :y} :x) ; natto
17:53	clojurebot	:y
17:53	lucian	the approach taken by that project has severe limitations
17:53	gfrederi1ks	natto: ##({:x :y} (keyword "x"))
17:53	lazybot	⇒ :y
17:54	natto	brehaut & gfrederi1ks : thanks, gfrederi1ks answers it
18:02	cemerick	ibdknox: did you resolve jcromartie's korma concerns?
18:03	ibdknox	cemerick: mostly, there were one or two things he mentioned that aren't there
18:03	ibdknox	for the most part it's all there, it's just a matter of thinking slightly differently about it
18:04	cemerick	ok; glad the loop got closed on that anyway
18:08	cemerick	Interesting that .clone isn't handled specially…
18:08	cemerick	,(.clone (make-array Double/TYPE 10))
18:08	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: clone for class [D>
18:08	hiredman	interesting?
18:14	sritchie	do you guys have any ideas about how to extend a protocol to a byte array?
18:14	sritchie	I'm not sure how to get the class, aside from (class (make-array Byte/TYPE 0))
18:17	brehaut	sritchie: heres a slightly squirrelly version https://github.com/brehaut/necessary-evil/blob/master/src/necessary_evil/value.clj#L161-163
18:17	ibdknox	haha
18:17	ibdknox	I like that
18:18	sritchie	me too, that's great
18:18	sritchie	brehaut: thanks a lot, that'd been bugging me
18:18	brehaut	sritchie: no problem. im sure there must be a better way to do it, but i havent found it yet
18:18	ibdknox	I can't think of anything obvious
18:18	ibdknox	and that seems relatively clean
18:19	brehaut	im just glad that you can :)
18:20	simonadameit	hi
18:21	simonadameit	im somewhat lost at to what I need to install in emacs, to get clojure support with slime
18:21	TimMc	Counterclockwise doesn't seem to give me javadoc flyover support -- is there an IDE where I can get that?
18:21	simonadameit	there are slime, slime-clj, slime-ritz and clojure-mode available
18:21	simonadameit	but installing all of them seems to lead to conflicts
18:21	hiredman	~swank
18:21	clojurebot	swank is try the readme. seriously.
18:21	TimMc	simonadameit: Get clojure-mode from marmalade.
18:22	TimMc	Ph, sorry, misread.
18:22	simonadameit	TimMc: yes, I got that
18:22	simonadameit	TimMc: but where is the slime stuff?
18:22	TimMc	But yes, swank.
18:22	simonadameit	is it included in clojure mode?
18:23	TimMc	I don't know, actually.
18:23	simonadameit	hm
18:23	simonadameit	I can get clojure-mode running with a repl in the inferior-lisp buffer
18:24	TimMc	Looks like you want swank-clojure.
18:24	simonadameit	but I thought there was slime integration for clojure
18:24	TimMc	I'm an Emacs n00b -- I just use the emacs-starter-kit to get set up.
18:25	babilen	simonadameit: https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure ← use that
18:27	simonadameit	ah, ok i am somewhat confused with all the different versions of the same thing :)
18:27	simonadameit	i was using "ritz"
18:27	simonadameit	which should do the same - so I thought
18:34	andrewm`	so in 1.3 with the removal of dissoc-in is there a good func to remove keys from a nested map?
18:35	technomancy	andrewm`: doesn't update-in work with dissoc?
18:36	andrewm`	ahh yes that would be the obvious solution
18:36	Bahman	Would someone please guide me on how can I convert a vector into a byte array (i.e. byte[])?
18:36	ibdknox	,(doc to-byte-array)
18:36	clojurebot	Pardon?
18:36	ibdknox	darn
18:37	ibdknox	,(doc byte-array)
18:37	clojurebot	"([size-or-seq] [size init-val-or-seq]); Creates an array of bytes"
18:37	Bahman	Thanks ibdknox!
18:37	TimMc	,(byte-array [1 2 3])
18:37	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to java.lang.Byte>
18:38	TimMc	yuck
18:38	ibdknox	,(byte-array (map byte [1 2 3]))
18:38	clojurebot	#<byte[] [B@f7a060>
18:39	TimMc	There's no way that's the most efficient way.
18:39	ibdknox	no one said anything about efficiency!
18:39	ibdknox	:p
18:39	simonadameit	hm, how come clojure-mode on clojure-jack-in tries to download its own version of leiningen?
18:39	simonadameit	I already have leiningen installed via homebrew
18:40	hiredman	don't use homebrew
18:40	andrewm`	technomancy: hmm nevermind that doesn't work as update-in operates on the values stored and will only create new entries
18:40	andrewm`	(update-in {:a {:b :c}} [:a :b] dissoc) => {:a {:b :c}}
18:41	ibdknox	,(update-in {:a {:b :c}} [:a] dissoc :b)
18:41	clojurebot	{:a {}}
18:41	ibdknox	:)
18:41	ibdknox	andrewm`: ^
18:42	andrewm`	ibdknox: correct, but that still leaves keys in the map pointint to an empty map
18:43	ibdknox	huh?
18:43	ibdknox	,(doc dissoc-in)
18:43	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
18:43	hiredman	,(dissoc {:b :c} :b)
18:43	clojurebot	{}
18:43	hiredman	that is how dissoc works
18:43	andrewm`	whoops correct
18:43	ibdknox	,(doc dissoc)
18:43	clojurebot	"([map] [map key] [map key & ks]); dissoc[iate]. Returns a new map of the same (hashed/sorted) type, that does not contain a mapping for key(s)."
18:44	andrewm`	tyvm
18:45	simonadameit	ok, now I see how it should work
18:46	simonadameit	clojure-mode on clojure-jack-in will get slime.el passed through and evaluated from swank-clojure
18:46	simonadameit	but unfortunately emacs gives this error in the process:
18:46	simonadameit	error in process filter: clojure-eval-bootstrap-region: Search failed: "(run-hooks 'slime-load-hook) ; on port"
18:49	simonadameit	so maybe I have incompatible versions of clojure-mode and swank-clojure?
18:49	andrewm`	simonadameit: I got that error some time ago and it was due to me having an older version of lein swank installed. Remove any version of slime you may have installed already, make sure you have the newest version of lein-swank installed and install the newest version of clojure-mode and try again.
18:50	ohpauleez	Is anyone at the nyc clojure meet up right now?
18:51	brehaut	crap i started vi in my emacs shell and i cant work out how to quit
18:52	ohpauleez	brehaut: from vi? or from viper mode?
18:52	brehaut	vi running in a emacs shell mode terminal
18:53	simonadameit	andrewm`: wohoo!! thank you :)
18:54	simonadameit	andrewm`: :-*
18:54	ohpauleez	brehaut: pressing escape a bunch and then ":q" doesn't work?
18:54	ohpauleez	(no quotes)
18:54	brehaut	ohpauleez: tried that; emacs kept capturing the esc
18:54	ohpauleez	ahhh that sucks!
18:54	brehaut	(i also not that emacs was smart enough to not try to start up inside the emacs terminal)
18:55	simonadameit	technomancy: at your swank-clojure repo the readme.md says to install swank-clojure 1.3.2, while the current version 1.3.3 is the one that will work with the current clojure-mode in elpa/marmelade
18:56	paulfryzel	simonadameit: are you looking at https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure ?
18:56	paulfryzel	i see "swank-clojure 1.3.3"
18:56	technomancy	simonadameit: thanks, just fixed it
18:57	simonadameit	paulfryzel:, technomancy : wow, now I wonder wether technomancy is really that fast, or I got it wrong :)
18:57	simonadameit	a mystery
19:03	simonadameit	technomancy: thanks for bringing the slime goodnesss to clojure :) - i just saw you commited an explanation how this all connects to clojure-mode
19:03	technomancy	simonadameit: yeah, long overdue; there was a bit too much "just do this and it works, heyyyy" which sucked when it didn't
19:05	brehaut	everyone loves the mumble style guide for lisp
19:06	technomancy	simonadameit: also, I didn't really bring it to clojure; I just halfheartedly maintain it.
19:16	alex_baranosky	I'm trying to move some code of mine to 1.3, and am getting a ClassNotFoundException in the ns call re: a record I created. Mind you this error does not occur in 1.2
19:16	alex_baranosky	code is here on GitHub: https://github.com/AlexBaranosky/EmailClojMatic/blob/master/src/core.clj
19:17	hiredman	:(
19:17	hiredman	don't put dashes in type names
19:17	alex_baranosky	it can't find the CannotPArseReminderStone
19:17	amalloy	single-segment namespaces are evil also
19:17	alex_baranosky	you mean like "core"
19:18	amalloy	yes, and reminder-parsing
19:18	alex_baranosky	yeah, let me fix that
19:18	gfrederi1ks	"core" is the only namespace I use
19:18	alex_baranosky	right, basically the whole project
19:18	alex_baranosky	:)
19:18	alex_baranosky	'll fix that... do you think it's related to the failure?
19:18	alex_baranosky	I'll fix it anyway :\|
19:18	amalloy	gfrederi1ks: your core namespace is the only one i use too
19:19	amalloy	alex_baranosky: hiredman is probably closer to the actual problem
19:19	hiredman	it's very karmic, you do bad things and bad things happen to you
19:19	amalloy	hah
19:19	alex_baranosky	the record type has no dashes though
19:19	hiredman	it does
19:19	amalloy	alex_baranosky: its package does
19:19	alex_baranosky	you mean its namespace?
19:19	amalloy	yes, and also no
19:19	hiredman	you :import'ed it, right?
19:20	hiredman	it's a java class
19:20	hiredman	:import is for java classes
19:20	alex_baranosky	that's silly
19:20	hiredman	alex_baranosky: I think what you meant is "I don't understand"
19:20	alex_baranosky	its just an inconsistency
19:21	hiredman	no it is not
19:21	alex_baranosky	and those always bite people
19:21	hiredman	you just don't know anything about records
19:21	hiredman	it's ok
19:22	alex_baranosky	so, you can use a namespace anywhere in clojure using dashes, btu as soon as you want to create a Record in one, then it won't work as it once dide
19:22	hiredman	no
19:22	hiredman	java types cannot have '-' in the name, records are java types, …
19:23	dakrone	devn: ping
19:23	alex_baranosky	how does a Clojure namespace look from Java? say 'alex.reminder-parsing' ?
19:24	alex_baranosky	does it substitute dashes with underscores?
19:24	hiredman	depends on what you mean
19:24	hiredman	there is the namespace object, an object with a name attribute with the value alex.reminder-parsing
19:24	hiredman	there is the class generated when that namespace is compiled
19:25	hiredman	which is something like alex.reminder_parsing
19:25	amalloy	hiredman: alex.reminder_parsing__init, i think?
19:25	hiredman	actually
19:25	hiredman	yeah
19:25	hiredman	that
19:25	hiredman	which is written to the filesystem like alex/reminder_parsing__init if asked
19:25	hiredman	you do get a alex.reminder_parsing if you have a :gen-class
19:26	hiredman	alex/reminder_parsing__init.class
19:26	hiredman	then there is the corresponding clojure file, alex/reminder_parsing.clj
19:26	alex_baranosky	so the CannotParseReminderStone, seems to compile fine to a clss with a matching name
19:27	hiredman	the important bit is the package name
19:27	hiredman	which is namespace the record/type is defined in
19:27	hiredman	and in your case contains a dash
19:29	alex_baranosky	so why did it work fine in 1.2?
19:29	alex_baranosky	hmm...
19:29	amalloy	wait, you're creating a stone class? the whole point of slingshot is that you don't have to create new classes for exceptions
19:30	amalloy	just (throw+ {:reason :cannot-parse-reminder :other "whatever"})
19:30	alex_baranosky	I thought it would be a bit of self-documentation, considering it could be conceivably hard to follow the code between throwing of the stone, and catching of it
19:30	alex_baranosky	but maybe that's just old-fashioned oop bs talking
19:30	alex_baranosky	I'll try just nuking it
19:38	alex_baranosky	what changed between 1.2 and 1.3 to effect package names on Records
19:39	brehaut	name munging changed between 1.2.0 and 1.2.1
19:40	brehaut	foo-bar.Record is as is in 1.2.0 (and below? i cant remember when records were added) and foo_bar.Record in 1.2.1 and above
19:41	amalloy	brehaut: they're new to 1.2
19:41	alex_baranosky	so can I import records that are in dashed namespaces with: (:import [dashed_namespace.RecordName]) ?
19:41	brehaut	i cant rmemeber what the big changes in 1.1 were then. hmm.
19:42	alex_baranosky	this project shouldn't even be using Records
19:42	alex_baranosky	f me
19:42	alex_baranosky	:P
19:42	amalloy	hahaha
19:42	amalloy	a frequent realization
19:43	alex_baranosky	however the new ->Record functions are pretty sweet
19:43	brehaut	alex_baranosky: you can only _import_ a record that exists; if the namespace containing the definition hasnt been loaded, and the record hadnt been AOT compiled, then you need to require the namespace first
19:43	alex_baranosky	brehaut: thanks for the clarification
19:43	brehaut	if that ball of words was clarifying, im glad. it looks like soup to me :P
19:44	alex_baranosky	brehaut: dude I am n the soup
19:44	alex_baranosky	in
19:45	brehaut	and your guess that you dont want records is probably right
19:46	brehaut	i think ive created 2 records in all my clojure code, and one of them isnt really all that necessary
19:47	alex_baranosky	brehaut: well, I originally added them in as a experiment with readability... that experiment has gone all sorts of terribly. Considering the potential pitfalls when using records
19:47	amalloy	brehaut: the only guy in here capable of making a ball of soup?
19:48	alex_baranosky	amalloy: one of the bread bowls I assumed.
19:48	brehaut	bread bowls?
19:48	amalloy	brehaut: for putting soup in?
19:48	brehaut	is this some weirdo north american thing?
19:49	amalloy	well i didn't think it was
19:49	brehaut	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_bowl
19:49	brehaut	huh. it really is a thing
19:49	gfrederi1ks	amalloy: wow you wrote that wikipedia article fast!
19:50	amalloy	$write-wiki Bread Bowl
19:50	gfrederi1ks	that crazy lazy bot
19:50	klauern	bread bowls are pretty awesome, actually
19:50	klauern	It's like a sandwich, for soup
19:50	brehaut	relevant: http://xkcd.com/978/
19:51	brehaut	klauern: my mind is blown
19:51	klauern	lol
19:51	amalloy	i like the concept of bread bowls but usually not the execution
19:51	brehaut	amalloy: huh. so like object orientation then?
19:51	brehaut	but breadish?
19:51	gfrederi1ks	bread-oriented soup
19:52	brehaut	this has gone to a weird place
19:52	amalloy	brehaut: welcome to soup-oriented irc?
19:52	brehaut	i think its just an aspect
19:53	brehaut	ps, what the hell are aspects?
19:53	amalloy	oh god
19:53	brehaut	amalloy: PTS ?
19:53	hiredman	people always say "cross cutting concerns" which is like, what?
19:54	gfrederi1ks	my friend was asking me just the other day how clojure people do aspect-oriented things
19:54	amalloy	no, more like embarrassment at my former self. i though AOP was really cool even though i knew i didn't understand it
19:54	brehaut	amalloy: you programmed PHP professional, its hardly your greatest embarassment
19:54	technomancy	I'll orient your aspect.
19:54	gfrederi1ks	run!
19:54	hiredman	like stuartsierra saying logic programming is the next cool thing, and then saying he didn't understand it?
19:55	hiredman	maybe you didn't do it on stage
19:55	amalloy	my understanding is AOP is this great way to create spaghetti code, by secretly injecting code all over your codebase
19:55	brehaut	holy crap
19:56	brehaut	that sounds like the worst idea since C++
19:56	technomancy	amalloy: alias_method_chain!
19:56	amalloy	technomancy: outside my area, i'm afraid
19:56	hiredman	someone just wrote a blog post
19:56	technomancy	amalloy: oh, it's a ruby thing. better not to know.
19:56	hiredman	https://github.com/raganwald/homoiconic/blob/master/2011/11/COMEFROM.md
19:57	alex_baranosky	all OOP is a mess on some level or another, and I can only assume production Clojure is also a mess, but LESS of a mess :) <bitter today>
19:57	klauern	hiredman: I was just going to find that post, as I just read it
19:57	amalloy	brehaut: like there was some notion of a "join point"; you could insert code before, after, or around various classes of join points. eg, "add this logging statement before every throw(foo) statement"
19:57	brehaut	wait, doesnt emacs have a thing for that?
19:57	hiredman	so, add-hook?
19:58	amalloy	i guess? like i said i never really understood it
19:58	alex_baranosky	amalloy: it has an intricate lexicon
19:58	gfrederi1ks	I don't remember any use cases other than logging
19:59	brehaut	amalloy: im slightly more informed than i was 10 minutes ago, so win!
19:59	rippinrobr	#clojureclr
19:59	rippinrobr	woops
19:59	brehaut	theres a bit in the orielly beautiful code book about using the emacs hooks feature to make emacs work for the blind
20:00	brehaut	that was pretty cool
20:00	amalloy	brehaut: also, gravity on pluto is over ten times stronger than on earth! (pointing out here that being more informed is only useful if information is true)
20:00	brehaut	amalloy: lol. point taken
20:00	gfrederi1ks	also there's usefulness
20:00	alex_baranosky	amalloy: unless you're trying to lie
20:01	gfrederi1ks	brehaut: I had chicken and shrimp for lunch
20:01	brehaut	monads are just endofunctors in the category of monoids, whats the problem?
20:01	alex_baranosky	brehaut: is that some new Parliament Funcadelic?
20:02	amalloy	so wait, in this analogy are shrimp the monads, or is lunch?
20:02	brehaut	i think lunch is the category in this analogy
20:02	brehaut	so i think shrimp must be endofunctors
20:02	brehaut	and monads is _the whole thing_
20:03	hiredman	clojurebot: shrimp \|must be\| endofunctors
20:03	clojurebot	In Ordnung
20:03	brehaut	honestly, i think this is the most profound discussion of monads we have ever had
20:32	hiredman	~endofunctors \|are\| functors that map a category to itself.
20:32	clojurebot	In Ordnung
20:32	hiredman	~shrimp
20:32	clojurebot	shrimp must be endofunctors
20:33	brehaut	~endofunctors
20:33	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.sql.SQLSyntaxErrorException: Syntax error: Encountered "=" at line 1, column 38.>
20:33	amalloy	haha that's actually better than the expected result. he can't stand category theory
20:33	brehaut	clojurebot is not a category theorist
20:34	alex_baranosky	brehaut, so my example of mapping List[String] too List [String] would be Endofunctor??
20:34	lazybot	alex_baranosky: Definitely not.
20:34	brehaut	~monads is #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.sql.SQLSyntaxErrorException: Syntax error: Encountered "=" at line 1, column 38.>
20:34	clojurebot	Roger.
20:34	brehaut	~monads
20:35	brehaut	alex_baranosky: no idea ;)
20:35	clojurebot	Pardon?
20:35	amalloy	alex_baranosky: well, you gave the example in a different channel, so he can't be expected to guess what it was :P
20:36	alex_baranosky	oops! 8)
20:37	amalloy	clojurebot: monads is #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.sql.SQLSyntaxErrorException: Syntax error: Encountered "=" at line 1, column 38.>
20:37	clojurebot	Roger.
20:37	amalloy	~monads
20:37	alex_baranosky	amalloy: that's what I get for quadruple-tasting while falling sleep
20:37	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
20:37	brehaut	alex_baranosky: are we talking about beer now?
20:37	amalloy	oh, i wonder if he's passing the factoid through the reader
20:37	brehaut	cause thats a category worthy of some theory
20:38	amalloy	clojurebot: monads is #=(str "super" "awesome")
20:38	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
20:38	amalloy	~monads
20:38	clojurebot	Excuse me?
20:38	amalloy	dude's just confusing
20:39	brehaut	le sigh
20:40	hiredman	~shrimp
20:40	clojurebot	shrimp must be functors that map a category to itself.
20:41	brehaut	hiredman: is this the inference working?
20:41	hiredman	yes
20:41	brehaut	thats fantastic :)
20:42	hiredman	well, after I smashed on it a bit (was only working for stuff defined with "is")
20:45	gfredericks	clojurebot: itself is a reflexive pronoun
20:45	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
20:45	gfredericks	~shrimp
20:45	clojurebot	shrimp must be functors that map a category to itself.
20:45	technomancy	clojurebot has the decency to consider anaphora harmful
20:46	hiredman	if you botsnack with in 2 minutes of an infered result it becomes permanent
20:47	hiredman	https://gist.github.com/1372115
21:06	technomancy	hiredman: how about the reverse for botsmack?
21:06	Raynes	~botsmack
21:06	technomancy	unlearn an accidentally-learned factoid if botsmacked within two minutes
21:06	clojurebot	Owww!
21:07	alex_baranosky	~botsmack
21:07	hiredman	I'll think about it
21:07	clojurebot	Owww!
21:07	amalloy	best feature ever
21:07	technomancy	hiredman: it's a yin/yang thing
21:08	technomancy	two sides of the same coin
21:08	amalloy	we'll all be like terribly abusive pet owners
21:11	alex_baranosky	~botsmack
21:11	clojurebot	clojurebot evades successfully!
21:11	alex_baranosky	lol
21:11	TimMc	haha
21:11	ibdknox	~botsmack
21:12	clojurebot	clojurebot evades successfully!
21:12	ibdknox	damn him
21:12	alex_baranosky	shoot it's learning
21:12	ibdknox	lol
21:12	ibdknox	skynet here we come
21:12	alex_baranosky	I give it 200 years
21:14	alex_baranosky	~shrimp
21:14	clojurebot	shrimp must be functors that map a category to itself.
21:16	TimMc	I leave this channel for 4 hours and what the shit are you going on about?
21:16	alex_baranosky	~monads
21:17	hiredman	I may have to fiddle with the inference makes lookup expensive
21:17	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
21:18	alex_baranosky	~factoid
21:18	clojurebot	Excuse me?
21:19	TimMc	clojurebot: It's Turing complete \|is\| <reply>Turing completeness is the Godwin's Law of language arguments
21:19	clojurebot	Roger.
21:19	TimMc	technomancy: ^
21:19	TimMc	Did you come up with that or did you hear it somewhere?
21:22	hiredman	~monads
21:23	clojurebot	monads is http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/monad-in-Scheme.html
21:49	alex_baranosky	what do you say to someone who says that it is not practical (yet) to write a webapp in clojure, that Rails is more effective dollar for dollar?
21:50	brehaut	alex_baranosky: ask them why they havent jumped to node?
21:51	brehaut	you have two differing statements in your question
21:51	brehaut	a) is it practical to write web apps in clojure
21:51	brehaut	b) is rails more effective
21:51	brehaut	a) absolutely practical
21:51	brehaut	b) may be true
21:52	brehaut	id say it depends on the particular application whether or not rails comes out on top
21:52	TimMc	alex_baranosky: "dollar for dollar" depends on hiring and feeding costs of Ruby programmers as well as productiveness and stability of the resulting Ruby apps,
21:52	TimMc	.
21:52	brehaut	(the more that it is a web app rather than an application that happens to be on the web, the more it favors rails i would suggest)
21:56	brehaut	alex_baranosky: speaking from the perspective of someone who does django day to day, django still has the edge over clojure because of the admin for CRUD cms type sites, and i wouldnt rush to try to replicate that in clojure yet
21:57	brehaut	alex_baranosky: on the other hand, lein, enlive, and ring are all great
21:57	brehaut	</blather>
22:00	alex_baranosky	brehaut: good points, I just looooove clojure and want to force everyone to use it :)
22:00	alex_baranosky	we need more awesome libraries to supplement and support the great language
22:02	lghtng	visual clojure 2011
22:02	lghtng	sry
22:03	brehaut	(i mean one that isnt part of webnoir obviously)
22:03	klauern	I feel Clojure needs something like playframework, but I have no idea what that would even be: www.playframework.org
22:03	lghtng	Visual Clojure Enterprise 2011 SP11
22:04	brehaut	its 2011; can we get past needing a 'framework' for web development please?
22:05	brehaut	lghtng: i believe you have misspelt 'emacs'
22:05	lghtng	$899/yr Subscription w/ unlimited downloads for 14 days from FAST Clojure Servers
22:05	lghtng	i spell emacs M-x
22:06	klauern	I'm not sure I follow. would "starter pack" or "boilerplate" or "starter kit" make it more appealing?
22:06	brehaut	klauern: im not sure why we anything beyond a bit of documentation?
22:09	lghtng	ls
22:09	lghtng	er
22:09	brehaut	klauern: if you dont want to think about your web programming choices in clojure, theres already noir. its a good default
22:10	lghtng	modlisp
22:10	lghtng	apache speed and punch, clojure sophistry
22:10	lghtng	and security
22:10	brehaut	wait wait, apache _speed_ ?
22:11	lghtng	unless you are Oracle, yes
22:12	lghtng	i think its pretty fast if your not trawling a swamp
22:13	lghtng	ziff-davis may disagree, but then again, they run a swamp
22:19	technomancy	TimMc: I don't think I came up with that
22:19	technomancy	couldn't tell you where it's from though
22:44	duck1123	Is there any way in clojure to disallow any http connectections and mock them out with known results for unit tests?
22:45	alex_baranosky	duck1123: Midje is good for that kind of thing: https://github.com/marick/Midje
22:46	duck1123	I am using Midje, and I can mock out in known places. I'm just looking for something that can catch the ones I'm not thinking of
22:46	duck1123	There was a gem for Ruby that did the same thing
22:46	brehaut	duck1123: why not just call the ring handler directly with request maps?
22:46	technomancy	with-redefs is another good one
22:47	duck1123	brehaut: I'm concerned with http connections going out from my server
22:48	duck1123	I think I might be able to figure something out
22:48	brehaut	ah right
22:53	alex_baranosky	did something change in 1.3 affecting gen-class ?
22:54	alex_baranosky	code used to work fine on 1.2 but now when I run 'lein run' it gives a ClassNotFoundException
22:54	alex_baranosky	no dashes in namespace
22:54	duck1123	run doesn't compile
22:54	duck1123	do a lein compile first
22:54	alex_baranosky	what about uberjar ? does it compile?
22:55	duck1123	I would assume so, I don't use it though
22:55	alex_baranosky	compiled then ran run, and got same error
22:56	duck1123	Oh well, I know that after cleaning, I need to compile before I can run
22:56	technomancy	anything that runs code in the project's JVM should cause compilation of whatever's in :aot in project.clj
22:56	alex_baranosky	is that a change from 1.2 to 1.3?
22:58	alex_baranosky	what I am doing is creating a simple gen-class with a -main function. Adding that ns to project.clj, and then running lein uberjar
22:58	technomancy	duck1123: hmm; if so that's a bug; it should always detect the need to compile if classes/ is empty.
22:59	alex_baranosky	in the past this made me a jar that worked fine at the command line
23:00	technomancy	alex_baranosky: if you can make a simple repro case please open a bug
23:00	duck1123	technomancy: It may be in part related to the peculiarities of Tigase's class loader. It scans every class file and jar for the implementations it needs
23:01	technomancy	tigase?
23:01	TimMc	XMPP server, yeah?
23:01	duck1123	Yeah, I use it in my server
23:01	TimMc	I think I use their free server to host my XMPP.
23:01	duck1123	I have to gen class the plugin to hook it in
23:01	alex_baranosky	thanks guys, gotta go. If it is a bug, and not my own error, I'll submit a report
23:01	alex_baranosky	adios
23:03	spoon16	how can I get lein to stop trying to use clojars and centeral?
23:03	technomancy	spoon16: :omit-default-repositories true
23:03	spoon16	thanks
23:03	technomancy	sure
23:04	spoon16	technomancy are you up in Seattle?
23:04	technomancy	spoon16: yeah, shoreline technically
23:04	spoon16	recently moved down to the bay area, from Redmond
23:04	technomancy	cool
23:04	spoon16	was kind of bummed out to see that you were from that area and I had not gone to any of the meetups or anything you are a part of
23:05	spoon16	great work on lein btw
23:05	technomancy	thanks
23:05	technomancy	yeah we have a lot of fun at seajure
23:05	duck1123	much less hair fire
23:05	technomancy	spoon16: too bad you hadn't heard of it; anything we could do to make sure everyone doing Clojure in the area knows about it?
23:06	technomancy	maybe mention it on the main Clojure mailing list occasionally?
23:06	gfredericks	billboards.
23:07	technomancy	gfredericks: well I do have the leiningen logo in high-res now...
23:07	spoon16	I think you are doing alright
23:07	spoon16	I was just barely getting started when I moved
23:07	spoon16	so I just had not discovered much in the eco system
23:08	technomancy	spoon16: gotcha. there's a bay area meeting too, but it's not quite as cool as ours. =)
23:08	spoon16	yeah, I've started going to the bay area one
23:09	spoon16	me and two other guys from Netflix have started attending
23:09	technomancy	great
23:11	brehaut	dnolen: 'fair conjunction'? what is that?
23:11	dnolen	brehaut: logical conjunction. miniKanren has fair disjunction.
23:11	dnolen	brehaut: that means a branch in a logical or cannot steal all the computation time.
23:12	brehaut	ah right.
23:12	gfredericks	clojurebot: logic programming is the new monads
23:12	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
23:12	dnolen	brehaut: but miniKanren still has some forms of divergence in clearly finite programs - because conjuction in miniKanren is not fair.
23:13	dnolen	P & Q, where P is a recursive call that needs information from Q to fail. currently P & Q will diverge. I think I may have a fix… shouldn't get to hopeful yet.
23:13	brehaut	~monads
23:13	clojurebot	monads is #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.sql.SQLSyntaxErrorException: Syntax error: Encountered "=" at line 1, column 38.>
23:14	brehaut	bah
23:14	gfredericks	I guess it worked eventually?
23:14	brehaut	dnolen: interesting
23:14	brehaut	gfredericks: yeah. almost; apparently i dont know enough bot-fu to not have him say 'monads is'
23:15	dnolen	brehaut: if this actual works, it'll fix a big wart in miniKanren, as well as remove a fairly strange hack.
23:15	brehaut	very cool :)
23:15	gfredericks	clojurebot: monads \|are\| the new gotos
23:15	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
23:15	brehaut	dnolen: core.logic must be about a year old now?
23:15	gfredericks	~monads
23:15	clojurebot	Excuse me?
23:21	brehaut	dnolen: 9 days away from 1 year in fact
23:21	brehaut	or maybe ten if you take timezones into account
23:22	spoon16	technomancy: how can I avoid repeating my repository credentials for each entry in :repositories (in a project.clj)?
23:23	spoon16	I swear I read this in the docs, but can't find it now
23:23	technomancy	spoon16: "lein help deploying" should cover it
23:23	spoon16	thanks
23:27	dnolen	brehaut: oh yeah! wow
23:33	spoon16	it seems like you have to override "centeral" repository last in project.clj or the override will not take
23:39	spoon16	nevermind, it's some wierd local maven problem if I clear my local cache all is good
23:55	Raynes	devn: https://github.com/Raynes/lein-newnewm <-- Thing we talked about earlier.