#clojure – 2011-11-15

2011-11-15

00:03	amalloy	alexbaranosky: man, every time he spends two seconds waiting for compilation my teeth grind together
00:22	scottj	sritchie_: the url in project.clj of wonderdog is not very useful
01:03	alexbaranosky	anyone know how to get lazybot to send me my messages?
01:41	noob3234	Is this an appropriate place to ask a swank question?
02:02	R4p70r	Is there a naming guide for Clojure somewhere? I often see the same variable names such as "coll" for collections, "n" for number of things, "idx" for indices. Most of it is obvious but I'd like to see it all written in one place to help me write idiomatic code.
02:10	seancorfield_	http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Library+Coding+Standards
02:14	R4p70r	seancorfield, thx
02:41	tsdh	Is it possible to attach metadata to a namespace after its definition?
02:42	amalloy	&(doc alter-meta!)
02:42	lazybot	⇒ "([iref f & args]); Atomically sets the metadata for a namespace/var/ref/agent/atom to be: (apply f its-current-meta args) f must be free of side-effects"
02:42	tsdh	Something equivalent to (ns ^{:bla "blubb"} foo)? The problem with that is that clojure-mode doesn't like it. For example, `C-c t' breaks.
02:42	tsdh	amalloy: Ah, great.
02:42	tsdh	Thanks.
02:43	tomoj	hmm
02:43	tomoj	that should be fixed
02:43	amalloy	the elisp for understanding ns forms is fragile
02:44	tomoj	tsdh: what's your clojure-mode version?
02:45	tsdh	tomoj: 1.11.4
02:45	tomoj	huh, I'm on 1.11.2 and it seems fixed
02:48	tomoj	maybe your ns form is just different
02:55	tsdh	tomoj: Oh, indeed it works fine when invoking `C-c t' from anywhere in the file except when point is in the metadata map itself.
02:56	tsdh	BTW: `C-c t' is a binding that is reserved for the user and must not be bound by emacs modes.
02:57	tsdh	In fact, I've bound it globally to some other command which clojure-mode forcefully overrides.
03:13	amalloy	yeah, i'm a little surprised technomancy bound C-c t. midje mode binds a zillion C-c <letter> combos, so even if i ever figure out midje i'm just not going to use the emacs support
03:46	Blkt	good morning everyone
04:02	R4p70r	Blkt, More like middle of the night here.
04:13	licenser	R4p70r: he is using the UGT ;)
04:13	licenser	good morning everyone by the way
05:06	naeu	morning
05:07	naeu	anyone else in here still feeling completely drained by the conj?
05:07	clgv	naeu: how did you like it?
05:08	naeu	clgv: it was incredible - such an amazing aggregation of insanely cool people
05:08	clgv	naeu: that what other source say as well ;)
05:09	naeu	clgv: great minds think alike ;-)
05:09	clgv	It's a pity there are no videos up yet. Some slides aren't made to transfer knowledge without the speaker ;)
05:10	naeu	clgv: yeah, totally. In fact I'd go so far as to say the best presentations have slide decks that by necessity don't work independently
05:11	clgv	there are only few slides on the github repo yet, compared to the schedule
05:11	naeu	clgv: do you plan on watching them all?
05:12	clgv	naeu: nope, I'll select by topic and abstract
05:13	clgv	oh fogus' slides are in there now
05:13	clgv	and the bioinformatics talk sounds interesting as well
05:15	lucian	aren't these the videos? http://clojure.com/blog/2011/03/23/conj-talks-all-up.html
05:15	lucian	oh, they're from march
05:15	clgv	lucian: watch the date ;)
05:16	clgv	hmm the "hacking the genome" slides archive is empty :/
05:17	clgv	how do I open .key files?
05:17	clgv	it seems to be html
05:17	clgv	but my browser doest display it
05:19	clgv	oh well thats not the slides it seems :(
05:40	naeu	clgv: the bioinformatics talk was interesting - a real Clojure success story
05:40	naeu	and fogus's macronomicon talk was also great
05:41	naeu	also, to watch out is Byrd and Friedman's outstanding double act (which wasn't scheduled)
05:41	naeu	they were writing programs backwards!
05:47	mindbender1	In Midje, if I want to declare that a number of operations called in succession throws an Exception, how should I write it?
05:59	naeu	cemerick: hey there
06:00	naeu	cemerick: recovered yet? I'm sitting at my desk wondering how I'm going to survive the day - the conj has sapped me dry!
06:04	cemerick	naeu: hi :-D
06:04	cemerick	Yeah, it always takes a couple of days to come down from the high.
06:05	cemerick	I guess I've seen your handle before, but never made the connection that you were who you are. ;-)
06:19	frank	,(+ 1 1)
06:19	clojurebot	2
06:19	frank	aha, it works :-)
06:24	cemerick	clgv: don't think about that for too long ;-)
06:26	clgv	cemerick: I think it might be the reason for a bug in my serialization
06:37	ejackson	morning, I think, all
06:51	naeu	cemerick: yep - I am who I am :-)
06:51	naeu	ejackson: how are you doing? How's your brain? Mine is still completely fried
06:52	Arafangion	naeu: Blasthemy!
06:52	ejackson	naeu: Mine is currently beaten down by my circadian rhythms.
06:53	ejackson	i'm such a lisp-weenie when it comes to jetlag ;)
06:53	cemerick	naeu: what was your cumulative impression of the U.S.?
06:54	cemerick	(it's too bad you weren't able to take in some other locales — Raleigh is OK, but hardly NYC or D.C. or Boston)
06:55	naeu	cemerick: I liked it although it's hard to say after spending most of my time in the hotel
06:55	cemerick	yeah
06:55	naeu	I did get the impression that there were a lot of rules
06:55	cemerick	such is the nature of conferences, I guess
06:55	naeu	and I wasn't so fussed about the number of flags
06:56	naeu	but everyone I met was super friendly
06:56	naeu	but I've no idea if that was a superficial friendliness or not
06:56	naeu	I definitely felt welcomed
06:57	naeu	ejackson: you should codify your circadian rhythms into overtone
06:58	ejackson	I'm not sure the world is ready for Grunge Goop
06:58	cemerick	naeu: We're generally a friendly bunch, though it's hard to generalize over 300m people. :-)
06:58	naeu	cemerick: haha, exactly
06:59	cemerick	naeu: My question was, did the conference organizers know what you were capable of, and that's why they booked you last? ;-)
07:00	naeu	cemerick: I really don't think so. I didn't know either!
07:01	naeu	cemerick: I stopped making overtone screencasts to increase the element of suprise
07:02	cemerick	heh
07:02	cemerick	naeu: Yeah, the delta between those vimeo clips and what you produced on stage was enormous.
07:02	naeu	cemerick: I also think that speaking to such an amazing audience full of people that I repsect to the highest levels also brought out some passion in me - in addition to being terrified
07:03	cemerick	Abject terror can sometimes bring out hidden strengths. ;-)
07:03	naeu	cemerick: indeed!
07:04	naeu	cemerick: the relief that I felt when I perceived that people were appreciative of Overtone midway through the presentation really did bring tears to my eyes
07:05	cemerick	Appreciation and wonderment, really.
07:06	ejackson	i too had tears in my eyes, but it was from the pain of my jaw hitting the table
07:06	cemerick	seriously
07:06	cemerick	ejackson: you mean naeu hadn't been giving local demos and such?!
07:06	ejackson	yeah, I'd heard some of it before, but he was holding back on me :)
07:07	naeu	I guess I've been too steeped in what I do to realise how others might perceive it
07:07	naeu	Also, from a music academic perspective, there's not that much that's new in Overtone
07:08	ejackson	well, we're a pragmatic bunch
07:08	naeu	I guess it's crazy new to a typical programmer though - and with Clojure I believe we can really travel fast into cool new musical terratory together as a community
07:09	Arafangion	Pfft.
07:09	cemerick	naeu: it seems that that's not the case, insofar as language involved gives you a lot more than e.g. ruby
07:09	cemerick	(re: not much new in Overtone)
07:09	naeu	cemerick: yes, true - but that's a hard argument to make in an academic setting
07:09	naeu	cemerick: but it's precisely why Overtone exists :-)
07:09	clgv	naeu: ah, you are the overtone guy ;)
07:10	naeu	clgv: one of them, yes :-)
07:10	clgv	when is that talk video up? ;)
07:11	naeu	soon, I'm sure :-)
07:11	clgv	did you ever try fractal music?
07:12	Bahman	Hi all!
07:13	naeu	clgv: no, but that's a cool idea - I'm happy to help you hack out some ideas if you want
07:13	cemerick	naeu: so am I to understand that you have a day job that pulls you away from Overtone?! :-O
07:14	naeu	cemerick: sadly - yes :-(
07:14	clgv	naeu: oh no, I dont have the time to do it. I just read about it a while ago and was curious if you already might have something like that ;)
07:14	cemerick	goodness — that seems like something that needs to be remedied.
07:16	naeu	cemerick: It's hard. First you have to find some person/organisation that's interested in paying a guy to hack on an open source music programming language, and secondly in a way that has some form of job safety as I have a baby coming along in April
07:16	cemerick	Totally understood.
07:16	naeu	I'm working on a few funding proposals to continue doing it in an academic context - but they're long shots - especially considering the current financial climate
07:16	Borkdude	Just a quick question: what do you guys think it the most student (non-Lispers) friendly introductory book to Clojure?
07:17	naeu	Borkdude: I always recommend the Joy of Clojure - although it's a book to digest slowly and savour rather than one that blasts through the language. However, I think Clojure is best learned by careful consideration anyway.
07:18	cemerick	naeu: Maybe you could go on tour :-P
07:18	naeu	cemerick: haha, that would rock :-)
07:18	clgv	Borkdude: I started with Programming Clojure
07:19	Borkdude	I'm looking at Clojure in Action, which is soon to be published right?
07:19	cemerick	Sell Overtone-branded equipment? i.e. buy the cheaper monome devices white-label and sell them on the site.
07:19	Borkdude	In chapter 2 it tells readers to clone from git
07:19	cemerick	Borkdude: it only covers 1.2 AFAIK
07:19	Borkdude	In chapter 8 there's a mocking macro that doesn't work anymore
07:20	cemerick	Borkdude: FWIW: http://www.clojurebook.com/ We aimed to be very accessible for those who don't know a lisp already.
07:20	naeu	cemerick: my main issue is that I have a complete lack of business acumen - I just focus all my energy hacking
07:21	Borkdude	cemerick: is that book available end of January in Europe?
07:21	Borkdude	cemerick: I would maybe recommend it, if I could have a preview copy
07:21	Borkdude	cemerick: recommend as in: oblige them to buy it ;)
07:23	cemerick	naeu: The salvation and bane of the open source hacker is his enthusiasm. ;-)
07:24	cemerick	I think you may have a number of options. I'd be happy to help in whatever way I can.
07:24	cemerick	Borkdude: That sounds plausible, though I have very little visibility into the publishing side of things. Are you looking for a particular translation?
07:25	naeu	cemerick: that would be great. To be honest, I'm pretty happy about the new job as I'm able to hack Clojure and make academia more aware of its awesomeness. However, I'd like to return to Overtone full-time next year if that would be at all possible
07:25	cemerick	Borkdude: FWIW, amazon.co.uk lists it as available on 12/30 as well: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Clojure-Programming-Chas-Emerick/dp/1449394701/
07:25	cemerick	naeu: new job?
07:26	naeu	yeah, I started as a research associate at Cambridge University computer labs a couple of weeks ago
07:26	naeu	I'm going to rebuild a GUI-heavy web app with Clojure and ClojureScript
07:27	cemerick	heh, hardly a bad gig :-)
07:27	naeu	cemerick: exactly ;-)
07:27	Borkdude	cemerick: tnx, I'll maybe order it but I hope it won't be too late for the course
07:27	Borkdude	cemerick: does your book "run" on 1.3? ;)
07:27	cemerick	Borkdude: 1.3-only
07:27	naeu	cemerick: but it was funny - people were shocked that I wasn't so stoked about it. I really am, but I'm also super sad to stop hacking Overtone full time.
07:28	cemerick	naeu: no, I can understand that — compared to a web app among other web apps, overtone is your passion. I know I wouldn't find "web programming" with clojure particularly compelling.
07:29	cemerick	Though I can't say what I'm doing otherwise is my "passion", to the degree that it's clear that Overtone is yours. :-\|
07:30	naeu	cemerick: but I do have a fantastic Overtone-based project idea in the works which will fill up my evenings :-)
07:31	cemerick	naeu: just one?! ;-)
07:31	naeu	cemerick: yep - it's a big and bold idea
07:31	cemerick	bold is good
07:32	naeu	it'll also force me to focus on using Overtone instead of just hacking on the internals
07:32	cemerick	FWIW, you should definitely submit a talk proposal to clojure west — I think you have carte blanche at Clojure conferences from here on out.
07:33	naeu	cemerick: I'd like to but I'm not sure I can afford the travel etc. My savings have been totally wiped out.
07:33	cemerick	naeu: Did your stipend not cover the trip to Raleigh?
07:33	naeu	cemerick: yeah, it totally did :-)
07:33	cemerick	I suspect you'll find the same holds for clojure west.
07:33	naeu	cemerick: but the stipend Clojure/West are offering wouldn't
07:34	cemerick	oh, have they published their rates?
07:34	naeu	cemerick: yeah - $400 for international speakers
07:35	cemerick	naeu: Submit your proposal. We'll make sure you get there without nicking your savings. I have my ways. :-)
07:35	naeu	cemerick: hahaha
07:35	naeu	cemerick: that would be awesome...
07:36	cemerick	Seriously. The whole point of prior fundraisers has been to make sure that people that deserve to be at the conj can get there, despite stupid stuff like money.
07:36	cemerick	No reason it needs to be limited to students AFAIC.
07:36	naeu	cemerick: btw, I was thinking about the podcast interview we did and feel quite bad that I didn't thank my wife, Susanna, for letting me work on a crazy esoteric music system whilst not earning any money for a year. Do you think you could add that in as a comment?
07:37	cemerick	heh
07:37	cemerick	I'll see how it flows, maybe we can splice something in there without it sounding obvious. ;-)
07:38	naeu	cemerick: or just mention it at the end?
07:38	cemerick	I haven't listened to any of the audio I recorded yet. Sometime next week.
07:38	naeu	cemerick: splicing it in there would sound awful ;-)
07:38	cemerick	naeu: yeah, we can put a "special mention" at the end.
07:39	cemerick	I'll ping you later this week so we can set something up via skype
07:39	naeu	cemerick: haha, a special "shout out" "mad crazy props" "big up the Overtone massive"
07:40	cemerick	naeu: yeah, something will go on the end just fine
07:40	cemerick	So you worked on overtone full-time for the last year?
07:42	naeu	cemerick: well, monome stuff initially, then around early 2011 my knowledge of Overtone internals reached a level that allowed me to make significant contributions (I have been involved with Overtone at a conceptual level since a couple of months in)
07:43	naeu	that, coupled with Jeff having to focus on his PhD thesis, meant I turned into the maintainer and put in a huge amount of effort
07:43	naeu	Overtone is a lot more stable, documented, organised and structured as a result
07:44	cemerick	Yeah, I was able to get going in < 5 minutes.
07:44	cemerick	I fleshed out the maven sections BTW.
07:44	naeu	cemerick: awesome - thanks
07:44	cemerick	Not that I'd recommend it :-P
07:45	naeu	cemerick: have you played around with TouchOSC yet?
07:45	cemerick	not yet; I wanted to twiddle with things in code for a bit first
07:46	cemerick	Do you know if they're coming out with a tablet-sized version for android eventually?
07:48	naeu	cemerick: I'm not sure. However, it's definitely something you should slap down on your todo list. TouchOSC totally complements code twiddling
07:48	cemerick	I'll check it out :-)
07:49	naeu	Right, I'm off for a meeting regarding funding for music projects...
07:49	cemerick	good luck with that :-P
07:52	Bahman	Is it alright to use Clojure with OpenJDK? Or should I get myself an Oracle one?
07:53	Borkdude	cemerick: translation?
07:53	cemerick	Bahman: Yeah, OpenJDK will work. Just make sure you're using OpenJDK, and not something like IceaTea, etc.
07:55	Bahman	cemerick: So is this "OpenJDK Runtime Environment (IcedTea6 1.10.4) (ArchLinux-6.b22_1.10.4-1-x86_64)" Alright?
07:56	cemerick	Bahman: if you've not yet installed a JDK, why not just grab the oracle one from the start?
07:57	Bahman	cemerick: Right...thanks.
07:57	cemerick	Borkdude: yeah, I didn't know if you needed a translation to German or French or…
07:57	Borkdude	Dutch ;)
07:57	Borkdude	cemerick: but I'm not hoping for that
07:58	cemerick	Seems like a longshot, no? :-)
07:59	Borkdude	cemerick: maybe I can start writing one, but I prefer to use existing books in my courses
08:34	michael_campbell	Morning, #clojurians.
08:34	juhu_chapa	hi!
08:51	clgv	cemerick: a translation for German is probably not needed - as german computer science student you have to be capable of writing and reading english anyway ;)
08:53	cemerick	clgv: The empire is serving its purpose, then. ;-)
08:54	clgv	lol
09:01	michael_campbell	cemerick: Do you have an ETA for Mostly Lazy #2?
09:02	cemerick	michael_campbell: probably late this week
09:03	gunnarahlberg	cemerick, excellent! I was just about to ask. Heard #1 yesterday, very good conversation
09:03	michael_campbell	great, thanks
09:05	gunnarahlberg	is there a way to get more informational error messages from the repl?
09:05	michael_campbell	Not without losing a finger. (Sorry, that'll only make sense to people at the conj)
09:06	gunnarahlberg	michael_campbell, I wish I was there!
09:06	michael_campbell	not to make you feel worse, but it was spectacular.
09:06	gunnarahlberg	good to hear, I heard it on the grapvine (twitter) lots of comments
09:06	michael_campbell	I was as inspired as I was terrified.
09:07	gunnarahlberg	wow!
09:08	gunnarahlberg	so, if I were to implement informational err messages, were would I start?
09:08	gunnarahlberg	and I'm not sure what my fingers will say, or what the joke was
09:08	michael_campbell	When fogus' talk gets posted, watch it. It will explain the joke.
09:09	michael_campbell	(his was on macros)
09:09	cemerick	gunnarahlberg: best to start with what problem you're looking to solve
09:09	clgv	gunnarahlberg: filtering clj-files from the stacktraceelements helps a lot
09:10	clgv	I built my self a clj-filtered view that can be expanded to a detailed view
09:13	gunnar_	sorry, i got disconnected
09:16	gunnarahlberg	hmm, maybe I should watch my language
09:23	cemerick	gunnarahlberg: language?
09:24	gunnarahlberg	cemerick, I was disconnected shortly after my last msg
09:24	clgv	there is no censor here afaik ;)
09:25	cemerick	gunnarahlberg: not by anyone here; we don't even have an op in the room
09:25	gunnarahlberg	oh, that's a relief. Just a coincidence then :)
09:25	cemerick	er, chouser has op I think, though he might have picked it up all of once in three years. :-P
09:25	cemerick	gunnarahlberg: we're a bunch of teddy bears around here
09:26	gunnarahlberg	cemerick, that's comforting :)
09:26	gunnarahlberg	well back to my question.
09:26	gunnarahlberg	specific example: as a n00b i try vainly to concatenate a string and a function
09:27	Borkdude	cemerick: tnx http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2758783/podcasts-for-clojurians ;-)
09:28	cemerick	gunnarahlberg: why would you try to concatenate a string and a function? o.0
09:28	gunnarahlberg	cemerick, lack of foo :)
09:29	Borkdude	,(concat "a" identity)
09:29	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.core$identity>
09:29	cemerick	gunnarahlberg: fu's got nothing to do with it. :-) Would you ever try to concatenate a string and a number?
09:29	cemerick	or, a string, and a socket?
09:31	gunnarahlberg	(def greeting "Greetings")
09:31	gunnarahlberg	(defn greet[who] (apply str (who "greeting")))
09:31	gunnarahlberg	calling greet is not too good in this case
09:31	clgv	cemerick: string and number works just fine ;) ##(str "Hello Nr. " 5)
09:31	lazybot	⇒ "Hello Nr. 5"
09:33	Borkdude	,(concat "dude" 5) ;; doesnt
09:33	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
09:33	gunnarahlberg	in my greet sample, "java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>" isn't trivial to comprehend
09:34	Borkdude	gunnarahlberg: who is a string?
09:34	clgv	Borkdude: lol. there is a high probability that any random function from clojure.core wont work with random select types and values of paramters
09:35	Borkdude	clgv: of course, that's why theres doc ;)
09:35	clgv	gunnarahlberg: you want to do (defn greet[who] (str "Greetings " who))
09:35	gunnarahlberg	clgv exacty
09:36	gunnarahlberg	what is interesting is that the error message doesn't tell me that
09:36	Borkdude	gunnarahlberg: if who is a string, then (who "greeting") applies "greeting" to a string, which is not a function, hence the error
09:36	clgv	with your "variable" its just: (defn greet[who] (str greetings who))
09:37	Borkdude	why don't these error messages tell us what the value of the thing that isn't a function is, that would be helpful
09:37	gunnarahlberg	Borkdude, thank you. How do we tell that to someone new to clojure?
09:37	clgv	gunnarahlberg: you have to know that when evaling a list the first argument always is interpreted as a function and string is no function. thats what the error tells you in short
09:37	gunnarahlberg	clgv ok
09:38	Borkdude	gunnarahlberg: I agree, the error messages could be more informative
09:38	clgv	maybe it's time for one of those introdutory books to get you setup quickly. ;)
09:39	Borkdude	gunnarahlberg: you could have passed a function in the who parameter though
09:39	Borkdude	gunnarahlberg: then it would work ;)
09:39	Borkdude	gunnarahlberg: could, I must say
09:39	gunnarahlberg	I still think the error message could have said which of the parameter that the interpreter stumbled on
09:40	gunnarahlberg	clgv, i've read a few intro book. My goal is to setup othres to grok clj
09:40	clgv	gunnarahlberg: I think in this case the error message is pretty clear if you have basic knowlegde. there are other cases where the error messages could be better or exist at all ;)
09:41	Borkdude	gunnarahlberg: I agree. I would like "The string {value of string} cannot be cast to IFn" better.
09:42	gunnarahlberg	Borkdude, yeah that looks about right
09:42	gunnarahlberg	I'm talking about getting people on board clojure. as long as its non trivial to do trivial things, there is some work to be done. In my humble opinion
09:43	Borkdude	gunnarahlberg: I agree once more
09:43	gunnarahlberg	what about a repl that told you long descriptive tales of what went wrong. just give it an option, like, verbose
09:43	clgv	But I think you need at least one basic lesson in almost every programming language there is
09:44	Borkdude	,("dude" "arg")
09:44	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
09:44	clgv	and in a Clojure one the semantics of a function call certainly has to be part of this first lesson
09:44	gunnarahlberg	clgv, thats true
09:44	Borkdude	I wonder how much trying and catching it would take in what places to make it more user friendly
09:46	clgv	there are worse things: (at least in 1.2.1) the signatures of prtocols deftypes/defrecords dont signal an error when you use '& as param name intending to use the next name as multiple args
09:47	gunnarahlberg	clgv, that would solve problems for experts. I'm talking beginners
09:47	Borkdude	is it possible to inject a global replacement for the standard ClassCastException that is more informative
09:47	Borkdude	without changing too much code
09:47	gunnarahlberg	Borkdude, where?
09:48	Borkdude	gunnarahlberg: in the clojure compiler for example
09:48	cemerick	Beginners are expected to at least read some basic materials. e.g. if someone only knows BASIC, it wouldn't be reasonable to expect a Java environment to infer error messages would help them understand the object.methodName(argument) calling convention.
09:48	clgv	$(inc cemerick)
09:49	cemerick	s/would help/that would help
09:49	clgv	&(inc cemerick)
09:49	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: cemerick in this context
09:49	Borkdude	cemerick: of course. but more informative error message would be a benefit to beginner and expert ;)
09:49	clgv	$inc cemerick
09:49	lazybot	⇒ 7
09:49	cemerick	Borkdude: agreed — I was responding mostly to gunnarahlberg's "long descriptive tales of what went wrong" :-)
09:50	cemerick	Even in such cases, we have to assume that people know about e.g. function position
09:50	gunnarahlberg	cemerick, that was maybe pushing it too far.
09:51	gunnarahlberg	maybe I should write a tutorial repl for beginners, wonder how much work it would be
09:54	Borkdude	what was that site again where you could try different prog. languages?
09:54	kzar	Ring seems to give me a org.mortbay.jetty.HttpParser for the body of a request, how do I turn that into a string?
09:54	Borkdude	gunnarahlberg: sounds like a nice project
09:55	leo2007	how do people get documentation on a third party library?
09:55	clgv	gunnarahlberg: writing an own repl is pretty easy using clojure.main/repl
09:55	clgv	you could catch the exceptions and translate them in what you like them to be
09:55	gunnarahlberg	clgv cool, thx for the input
09:55	gunnarahlberg	Borkdude, thx
09:57	clgv	gunnarahlberg: as an example you can look at the debug-repl macro over there https://github.com/GeorgeJahad/debug-repl/blob/master/src/alex_and_georges/debug_repl.clj
09:57	clgv	it's using clojure.main/repl in its implementation
09:59	gunnarahlberg	a goal would be like ward says about clean code - " should do pretty much what you expected"
10:04	gunnarahlberg	clgv, looks like a starting point, thx
10:07	jcromartie	,(print \u2583)
10:07	clojurebot	▃
10:07	jcromartie	hm
10:07	jcromartie	works here but not in lein repl
10:07	frank	man, I really hate jet-lag, but at least I got my order for "the reasoned schemer" out
10:07	frank	I think there is going to be a real spike for that book after the conference
10:09	jcromartie	why does my Clojure REPL print "?"
10:10	frank	works on my emacs slime repl
10:11	joegallo	are you running it via emacs, jcromartie?
10:11	joegallo	or just in a shell, straight up?
10:11	frank	perhaps your shell, etc does not support the characterset
10:11	jcromartie	joegallo: no, OS X Terminal.app
10:12	jcromartie	other programs can print the character
10:12	jcromartie	i.e. Ruby or bash
10:13	joegallo	jcromartie: prints ? for me to, in terminal.app
10:13	joegallo	s/to/too/
10:13	jcromartie	joegallo: from lein repl, to be specific
10:14	jcromartie	and in java -jar clojure-1.3.0.jar
10:14	jcromartie	hm
10:14	joegallo	does the same thing from iterm2 on osx
10:14	jcromartie	I wonder if it's Clojure or Java.
10:14	joegallo	but, but! it works just fine if i'm sshed into a linux host and run it there
10:14	joegallo	same jars
10:14	jcromartie	http://hints.macworld.com/article.php?story=20050208053951714
10:14	jcromartie	interesting
10:15	joegallo	anyway, that's all i've got ;)
10:17	cemerick	jcromartie: what does (java.nio.charset.Charset/defaultCharset) return?
10:17	jcromartie	MacRoman
10:17	jcromartie	:P
10:17	jcromartie	who wants that!?
10:17	cemerick	that'll do it
10:17	cemerick	you can thank Cupertino for that one
10:18	cemerick	I think setting LANG is what fixes that. I've had `setenv LANG en_US.UTF-8` in my .tcshrc ~forever.
10:18	jcromartie	LANG in the shell?
10:18	jcromartie	environment?
10:18	cemerick	right
10:18	jcromartie	hm
10:19	michael_campbell	tcsh... wow.
10:19	cemerick	There's a java system property that sets it as well.
10:19	jcromartie	yes I just found it
10:19	jcromartie	-Dfile.encoding=UTF8
10:19	cemerick	sure
10:19	cemerick	easier to set everything everywhere to utf8 IMO
10:20	cemerick	michael_campbell: I try to burn as few cycles as possible on command-line rabbit holes. ;-)
10:20	michael_campbell	. /bin/sh, man! ;-)
10:20	frank	mmm, did not fix it for me: export LANG=n_US.UTF-8 still gets me ?
10:20	michael_campbell	honestly, I'm a zsh guy.
10:20	cemerick	frank: did you restart your repl?
10:21	frank	yup, got out, did the export and started again
10:21	frank	still getting ? here, same as jcromartie
10:22	jcromartie	ah JAVA_TOOL_OPTIONS
10:23	jcromartie	export JAVA_TOOL_OPTIONS="-Dfile.encoding=UTF8"
10:23	jcromartie	that does the trick
10:24	frank	yup, the -Dfile.encoding works as well
10:25	cemerick	odd, I've never set that
10:25	jcromartie	JAVA_TOOL_OPTIONS just makes the actual "java" command-line tool pick up the specified options whenever it is run
10:25	jcromartie	you can see lein running two JVMs when you set that variable :)
10:25	frank	hope mac will switch to UTF8 one of these days, I have run in these kind of problems before
10:25	jcromartie	because it says "picked up ..." for the options
10:25	cemerick	yeah, it should grab your system default though…
10:25	jcromartie	yeah really
10:25	jcromartie	it's silly
10:27	frank	lucky I never run my repl from the terminal, and Emacs seems to do the right thing by defau;t
10:27	frank	that is a first :-)
10:27	raek	it's really weird that java in OS X thinks the default encoding is MacRoman when OS X actually uses UTF-8...
10:28	frank	When working with Intellij java, default encoding is MacRoman as well
10:28	frank	You need to change some setting somewhere to change to UTF-8
10:28	raek	I saw that this was actually documented somewhere
10:29	frank	was there a reason for this or some legacy stuff?
10:29	cemerick	ah-ha — LANG doesn't actually do anything: setting "Character Encoding" to UTF8 in Terminal.app does, though.
10:30	raek	basically it acknowledged that OS X really uses UTF-8 but the default encoding is MacRoman anyway.
10:30	raek	it is really a bug in the OS X configuration of Java
10:31	raek	anyway, noone should use the "default encoding" anyway
10:31	raek	the whole idea of a platform default encoding assumes that all files, pipes and sockets the OS touches uses the same encoding
10:32	raek	which is simply not true
10:32	lucian	sadly, MacRoman is in fact the default encoding on OS X
10:32	lucian	python defaults to it as well, and several system tools
10:32	raek	really? I thought only Java had this problem. that's bad.
10:34	Fossi	is there an easy way to map over a vector until a specific condition occurs at which point i want to stop the mapping and do something completely different?
10:35	raek	what values does the condition need?
10:35	lucian	raek: it is an apple recommendation as well
10:35	Fossi	so far i only came up with using lazyness and a special marker, but that feels dirty
10:35	raek	the value before given to the map function or the value the map function returns?
10:35	ejackson	Fossi: while might be what you want
10:35	lucian	raek: it's the "right" thing to do, sort of
10:35	ejackson	,(doc while)
10:35	clojurebot	"([test & body]); Repeatedly executes body while test expression is true. Presumes some side-effect will cause test to become false/nil. Returns nil"
10:35	ejackson	no, that's not it at all
10:36	raek	,(doc take-while)
10:36	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of successive items from coll while (pred item) returns true. pred must be free of side-effects."
10:36	ejackson	yeah thats it, or (for .... :while)
10:36	raek	Fossi: if your condition only depends on the function input, you can do it like this: (map f (take-while p coll))
10:37	raek	yeah, for is a lot more flexible here (you can apply the :while before or after the function)
10:38	raek	,(for [x (range), :let [y (* x x)], :while (< y 5)] y)
10:38	clojurebot	(0 1 4)
10:38	raek	,(for [x (range), :while (< x 5)] (* x x))
10:38	clojurebot	(0 1 4 9 16)
10:39	Fossi	hmm, i need both, either the return value or the value that failed. normally i'd return the result, but in the other case i want to "break" with returning an error-handling-cod
10:41	Fossi	like http://pastebin.com/iUm1mZmK only with more params
10:41	Fossi	ie a vector
10:41	Fossi	um, ignore the stray reduce :>
10:44	Fossi	it would work with recursion, but i dislike making macros recursive
10:46	clgv	Fossi: why not? they cant blow the stack afaik ;)
10:47	Fossi	in this case it would be okay because params is always really small, but it would generate a real monster if it would be really big
10:47	raek	Fossi: recursive macros can be very simple. just let a macro (foo ...) expand into something that contains another (foo ...)
10:47	bhenry	i need some help on converting this to clojurescript or being pointed to something that already does it http://stackoverflow.com/questions/901115/get-query-string-values-in-javascript/901144#901144
10:48	raek	bhenry: I assume that the Google Closure library has such a function
10:50	raek	bhenry: http://closure-library.googlecode.com/svn/docs/class_goog_Uri.html
10:50	raek	getParameterValue
10:50	lucian	bhenry: don't you want document.querySelector[All] ?
10:50	bhenry	i don't know. i'm certainly no js expert
11:32	kzar	How do you make a reader from a string again?
11:33	kzar	oops got it (java.io.StringReader. "hello")
11:35	licenser	dun dun dun :)
11:40	Fossi	after lots of fichting them quotes: http://pastebin.com/PKF5SkLa
11:40	Fossi	any way to get rid of the into [] ?
11:41	gfredericks	(into [] ...) ~ (vec ...)
11:42	Fossi	yeah, the question was more if there is a rest/more for vectors
11:42	gfredericks	,(subvec [7 8 3 4 5] 1)
11:42	clojurebot	[8 3 4 5]
11:42	Fossi	okay
11:44	gfredericks	Fossi: I'm trying to figure out why you need params to be a vector there...
11:44	Fossi	if it's a list you get something like ("bar")
11:44	Fossi	which gets evaluated
11:45	gfredericks	hmmm
11:45	Fossi	by (first ~params)
11:45	gfredericks	[~@(rest params)] could work
11:45	Fossi	hmmm, clever :>
11:45	gfredericks	wai
11:46	gfredericks	t
11:46	gfredericks	it _does_ get evaluated?
11:46	gfredericks	isn't it only the arg to the macro?
11:46	gfredericks	I don't see you emitting it anywhere, except recursively
11:46	Fossi	ah wait
11:46	clgv	when using (keyword "my-keyword") why does it always call java.lang.String.intern() even if the keyword already exists?
11:47	Fossi	i can change (first ~params) to ~(first params)
11:47	Fossi	then it works with lists as well
11:47	gfredericks	clgv: what would you expect it to do?
11:47	joegallo	http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/String.html#intern%28%29
11:48	clgv	the problem is that call is using pretty much time
11:48	gfredericks	Fossi: ah ha; that makes sense.
11:48	joegallo	if you intern a string and it isn't in the pool, you'll add it to the pool and get back the version that was just added
11:48	gfredericks	Fossi: didn't notice that detail
11:48	joegallo	if you intern a string and it is in the pool, you get the string from the pool instead
11:49	clgv	humm somehow java serialization can avoid this behavior but kryo serialization cannot
11:49	Fossi	anyway, i (still) don't believe this recursive version is much clearer/nicer than a plain old imperative one
11:49	kzar	arohner: I saw in the logs your Heroku app was timing out, you ever figure out how to fix it?
11:49	Fossi	guess i'll try that now
11:50	arohner	kzar: not really
11:50	gfredericks	Fossi: I'd think you could do it pretty simply without recursion
11:50	arohner	kzar: clj 1.3 might help
11:50	kzar	arohner: I get it sometimes and other times I don't, it's really annoying. I'm using 1.3
11:51	Fossi	gfredericks: that's what i told my collegue about 2 hours ago ;)
11:51	gfredericks	(if-let [first-bad-param (first (filter (complement payload) (keys params)))]
11:51	TimMc	haha
11:51	gfredericks	Fossi: something like that ^ I'm not sure I'd describe that as imperative
11:52	Fossi	well, not recursive then
11:52	Fossi	is there a word for that? ;D
11:52	Bronsa	iterative?
11:52	TimMc	filter-complement -> remove
11:52	gfredericks	simplected :)
11:52	TimMc	$dec gfredericks
11:52	gfredericks	TimMc: you betcha!
11:52	lazybot	⇒ 3
11:52	babilen	Hi all. How do you restart swank from within Emacs? Or rather: How do I convince it to honour changes to the classpath? I am using clojure-mode, lein-swank and start it with clojure-jack-in
11:53	pjstadig	babilen: i usually just re "clojure-jack-in" and it kills and restarts swank
11:53	TimMc	gfredericks: You've done enough damage this morning!
11:54	babilen	pjstadig: Ah, that works. I wonder why I didn't try it :) Thanks!
11:55	TimMc	gfredericks: (the $dec was for that horrible word, not filter + complement :-P)
12:07	Fossi	if i change to the iterative way i just have to make sure i don't use our magic binding stuff
12:20	devn	hello everybody
12:22	devn	note to self: don't set :checksum-deps true in project.clj right before a flight
12:23	pjstadig	devn: bummer
12:24	ejackson	oooh
12:24	bhenry	raek: i don't know how to use that getQueryData method in clojurescript
12:30	babilen	Hmm, I just upgraded clojure-mode to .4 (from .2) and "C-c M-p" to switch the repl namespace does not work anymore. Does it use a different keybinding now, is it broken or did I break it with local modifications?
12:33	babilen	Ah, I had to remove the old .2 installation...
12:45	technomancy	babilen: C-c M-p is part of slime rather than clojure-mode
12:47	timvisher	is it possible to make difftest work with clojure-test-mode and/or slime?
12:48	babilen	technomancy: Thanks. Not sure what the problem was, but removing 1.11.2 solved it. Btw, I packaged 1.6.2 and it is waiting to be sponsored. Should be faster in the future as I will be a Debian Maintainer soon. (and don't need a sponsor then)
12:48	technomancy	babilen: thanks! glad to hear you're getting the access you need.
12:49	iok	what's the equivalent to cons for appending?
12:49	michael_campbell	conj?
12:49	clojurebot	(conj {:a 1} (when true {:b 2}))
12:50	iok	conj sticks it in at the first position :(
12:51	cemerick	iok: where a value is added to a collection is polymorphic w/ respect to the collection's type
12:51	Bronsa	concat?
12:51	cemerick	conj adds to the front for lists, rear for vectors, etc.
12:51	michael_campbell	cemerick: yeah, that's what I was going to say ;-)
12:53	iok	concat was it.. thanks!
12:54	michael_campbell	perhaps an unanswerable question, but for general REPL spelunking, do you download and run a clojure jar, or start/enter a lein project and "lein repl" with the clojure jar that lein downloaded for you?
12:57	babilen	michael_campbell: I just use "lein repl" within or outside a project.
12:57	michael_campbell	gotcha.
12:59	TimMc	Yeah, it runs from lein's own JVM.
12:59	michael_campbell	if you "lein repl" inside a lein project, does it do anything different/special with respect to the project?
12:59	zerokarmaleft	michael_campbell: i keep a lein project around that sort of acts as a staging area for half-baked ideas, and use swank from there
12:59	TimMc	michael_campbell: From inside a project, it launches a separate JVM.
12:59	TimMc	so you can choose a clojure version, etc.
12:59	babilen	michael_campbell: I should note that I mainly use "lein repl" within a project as I want 1.3 ...
13:00	michael_campbell	<nod>
13:02	babilen	michael_campbell: At least the Debian/Ubuntu packages for clojure{1.2,1.3} install rlwrapped clojure1.2/clojure1.3 scripts that get you a nice REPL .. I use that if I want to run something like "(+ 1 2)" (no fancy dependencies or anything). Not sure about your setup though.
13:04	michael_campbell	I've JUST started clojure, really, so I've d/l lein and did a self-install. I've also, on occasion, download the clojure jar directly and just run java -jar on that for a repl. But it's all been trying out things that I read about in Stu H's book. So just plinking around right now.
13:04	michael_campbell	I'm and old guy emacs user so will start playing with swank and all that soon enough.
13:05	michael_campbell	didn't realize there was an Ubuntu package, even.
13:11	gfredericks	TimMc: oh, simplected. I see. Okay good. Simplifected then?
13:11	michael_campbell	awesome. Fogus' slides from the conj are up.
13:11	michael_campbell	http://blog.fogus.me/2011/11/15/the-macronomicon-slides/ Slides 34 and 43 are the keepers.
13:14	TimMc	gfredericks: cries
13:32	technomancy	do the jark developers hang out on IRC?
13:36	shtutgart	hm, I have some weird behaviour, (class x) returns some clazz, but (instance? clazz x) returns false. Is there known reasons for that?
13:36	shtutgart	it's clojure 1.2 and I can't reproduce it
13:38	shtutgart	ok, i've recompiled the whole file and it's gone
13:39	technomancy	shtutgart: was it a defrecord or deftype?
13:40	shtutgart	defrecord
13:40	shtutgart	with one additional filed assoc'ed, if it matters
13:40	technomancy	yeah, you get really weird semantics with existing record instances when you reload the defrecord forms.
13:43	shtutgart	hm, but I can't remember recompiling the (defrecord ...) itself
13:43	shtutgart	only ns with import for that record
13:44	drguildo	which is the best data structure for checking whether it contains a value?
13:45	gtrak	set?
13:46	drguildo	how do i check whether it contains the value?
13:47	technomancy	drguildo: just call it
13:47	drguildo	(set-name value) seems to return the value rather than a boolean. maybe that'd work in a boolean context, though (i'm new to clojure)
13:47	gtrak	drguildo, http://clojure.org/data_structures#Data%20Structures-Sets
13:47	drguildo	dunno if that's idiomatic
13:47	shtutgart	anyway, lesson learned: recompile the whole program first when things getting strange :)
13:47	shtutgart	drguildo: use contains? if you want bool
13:47	brehaut	drguildo: its extremely idiomatic to use a set as a function
13:48	drguildo	shtutgart: i thought that was for maps only?
13:48	gtrak	shtutgart, just don't hang on to the old instances?
13:48	technomancy	shtutgart: bonus lesson: use more predictable language constructs if you can.
13:48	drguildo	ok thanks
13:48	drguildo	i assume hash-set is better than a standard set for my purposes?
13:49	gtrak	what's a standard set?
13:49	brehaut	,(class #{})
13:49	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet
13:49	technomancy	drguildo: hash-set is an implementation detail; you shouldn't think about them at that level.
13:49	drguildo	gtrak: dunno, whatever gets created using the #() syntax
13:49	shtutgart	drguildo: no, it works even for vectors and java arrays!
13:49	shtutgart	technomancy: what exactly do you mean?
13:50	edw	Is there a trick with calling variable argument Java methods? I'm getting a no-such-method exception when calling redis.clients.jedis/Jedis's watch method.
13:50	technomancy	shtutgart: don't use records where a map will do; don't use protocols where a multimethod will do.
13:50	gtrak	edw, try passing in an array
13:51	edw	gtrak: Will do. Thanks.
13:51	gtrak	,(doc into-array)
13:51	clojurebot	"([aseq] [type aseq]); Returns an array with components set to the values in aseq. The array's component type is type if provided, or the type of the first value in aseq if present, or Object. All values in aseq must be compatible with the component type. Class objects for the primitive types can be obtained using, e.g., Integer/TYPE."
13:51	brehaut	bonus bonus lesson: dont use regexps when a parser would do
13:51	drguildo	technomancy: i'm not sure what you mean. i should just use #() and forget about the type of set?
13:52	technomancy	drguildo: use #{}, and yes, the type is immaterial
13:52	technomancy	the point is that it's a set
13:52	drguildo	ok, thanks
13:53	technomancy	np
13:54	shtutgart	technomancy: honestly, it doesn't feel right for me when I have some 'entity' with fixed set of keys (well, most of time) and it isn't defined somewhere
13:57	technomancy	give it a try; it's not as bad as you think it is.
14:06	shtutgart	I've tried; but creating new instances without positional constructor isn't very convenient, often the type predicate is required, etc... After all, the code becomes less self-descriptional (imo)
14:18	amalloy	man, it looks like i missed a lot of bonus^n lessons
14:25	R4p70r	Is there a core function that retunrs a lazy seq of (coll, (rest coll) (rest (rest coll))) and so on?
14:26	Borkdude	R4p70r: isn't that reductions?
14:26	jcromartie	R4p70r: try (reductions rest coll)
14:26	jcromartie	I think
14:26	gtrak	neat
14:26	jcromartie	,(reductions rest [1 2 3 4])
14:26	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$rest>
14:27	Borkdude	,(doc reductions)
14:27	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f init coll]); Returns a lazy seq of the intermediate values of the reduction (as per reduce) of coll by f, starting with init."
14:27	jcromartie	err
14:27	jcromartie	yeah
14:27	gtrak	,(source reductions)
14:27	clojurebot	Source not found
14:28	shtutgart	repeatedly?
14:28	Borkdude	,(doc rest)
14:28	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a possibly empty seq of the items after the first. Calls seq on its argument."
14:29	raek	,(take 10 (iterate inc 0))
14:29	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
14:29	R4p70r	right. I don't think that's reductions... like (f [1 2 3 4 5]) would give ([1 2 3 4 5] [2 3 4 5] [3 4 5] [4 5] [5]) I have already writen one but don't want to reinvent the wheel if I don't have to.
14:30	Borkdude	,(reductions rest [[1 2 3 4]])
14:30	clojurebot	([1 2 3 4])
14:30	raek	,(take 10 (iterate rest (range 10))
14:30	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
14:30	raek	,(take 10 (iterate rest (range 10)))
14:30	clojurebot	((0 1 2 3 4 ...) (1 2 3 4 5 ...) (2 3 4 5 6 ...) (3 4 5 6 7 ...) (4 5 6 7 8 ...) ...)
14:30	shtutgart	ah, iterate, right
14:30	Borkdude	,(reductions + [1 2 3 4])
14:30	clojurebot	(1 3 6 10)
14:31	raek	,(take-while seq (iterate rest (range 3)))
14:31	clojurebot	((0 1 2) (1 2) (2))
14:31	R4p70r	,(take 10 (iterate rest [1 2 3 4 5]))
14:31	clojurebot	([1 2 3 4 5] (2 3 4 5) (3 4 5) (4 5) (5) ...)
14:31	raek	there!
14:31	R4p70r	raek, Thanks!
14:31	Raynes	&(reductions conj [] [1 2 3 4])
14:31	lazybot	⇒ ([] [1] [1 2] [1 2 3] [1 2 3 4])
14:31	Raynes	Backwards, but close enough.
14:31	Raynes	;)
14:32	R4p70r	right
14:32	raek	R4p70r: that won't include (), though (don't know if you wanted that too)
14:32	Raynes	raek, of course, wins this battle, because this is precisely what iterate is for.
14:34	shtutgart	pretty often i'm writing someting like #(if (pred? %) (f %) %). How can I get rid of this % signs?
14:37	Raynes	(fn [x] (if (pred? x) (f x) x))
14:37	gfredericks	shtutgart: write a helper HOF?
14:37	amalloy	shtutgart: well! if you want to use the "useful" library, it has that already built-in
14:37	Raynes	inb4 but how di I get rid of the xes!?
14:37	gfredericks	or use amalloy's
14:37	amalloy	(to-fix pred? f) => (fn [x] (if (pred? x) (f x) x)))
14:37	shtutgart	Raynes: no, I mean what haskellers calling point-free style
14:39	Raynes	But yeah, this is called 'fix' in useful, right amalloy?
14:39	amalloy	shtutgart: point-free style is made possible by having a few functions down at the bottom that deal with points. if you define (say) to-fix once, you can avoid introducing points later by using it
14:39	Raynes	Or given.
14:39	amalloy	Raynes: depends if he actually wants the function (use to-fix), or wants to apply it to an x immediately (use fix/given)
14:39	Raynes	I hate those names.
14:40	raek	since clojure does not use currying for functions with more than one argument, it's not as easy to write point-free function, I think
14:40	shtutgart	amalloy: "useful" is a name of library, right?
14:40	Raynes	Well, sure it is.
14:40	amalloy	http://github.com/flatland/useful
14:40	Raynes	&((partial + 2) 3)
14:40	lazybot	⇒ 5
14:40	Raynes	Just more long-winded.
14:40	amalloy	Raynes: that sounds like "not as easy" to me
14:41	shtutgart	amalloy: ok, i'll check it out, thanks!
14:41	Raynes	It sounded like "Clojure doesn't curry, so this would be hard."
14:42	Raynes	But yes, it doesn't, and if typing out 'partial' for partial application is difficult for you, this is definitely harder. ;)
14:42	amalloy	shtutgart: specifically the function you wanted is somewhere in the neighborhood of https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/fn.clj#L25
14:43	gfredericks	what do we mean by "clojure doesn't curry"?
14:44	pjstadig	,(+ 1)
14:44	clojurebot	1
14:44	Raynes	http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Currying
14:44	pjstadig	er
14:44	kurtharriger	could use the threading operator
14:44	michael_campbell	for anon funcs which take > 1 parameter, is it idiomatic to use "% %2 %3..." instead of "%1 %2 %3..."?
14:44	pjstadig	,(map +)
14:44	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$map>
14:44	kurtharriger	(-> 2 (+ 3) (+ 5))
14:44	gtrak	,(partial + 1)
14:44	clojurebot	#<core$partial$fn__3794 clojure.core$partial$fn__3794@38c6be>
14:44	amalloy	michael_campbell: either is fine
14:44	Raynes	michael_campbell: It is idiomatic to use whatever you feel like using at any given time.
14:45	pjstadig	gfredericks: if clojure curried then (map +) would return a function that takes a seq
14:45	amalloy	kurtharriger: that's not really the same thing
14:45	michael_campbell	Raynes: right now I feel like reading the "useful" source, which is where I saw it, so... you guys are making my decisions! =D
14:45	gfredericks	pjstadig: is it kind of just a syntactic distinction then?
14:45	pjstadig	which you can obviously get with partial
14:45	gtrak	,((apply partial '(+ 1)) 2)
14:45	clojurebot	2
14:45	shtutgart	amalloy: but, you know, since this fns isn't in core it's easier to write some more % than add lib to deps, require, etc...
14:45	brehaut	gfredericks: easy partial application is feature of curried functions, but curried functions are not partial application
14:46	Raynes	And here is where the fog begins to thicken.
14:46	gfredericks	brehaut: man there's like three different parts of that where I don't know what you're talking about
14:46	devn	the plot thickens!
14:46	pjstadig	gfredericks: i don't think it is just a syntactic distinction
14:47	brehaut	gfredericks: time for haskell type signatures!
14:47	gfredericks	does "curried function" mean a function which has had some of its arguments filled in?
14:47	gfredericks	I think I decently understand how currying works in haskell :/ maybe.
14:47	brehaut	gfredericks: normal_function :: (a,b,c) -> r
14:47	brehaut	gfredericks: curried_function :: a -> b -> c -> r
14:47	gtrak	hmm, why doesn't ((apply partial '(+ 1)) 2) return 3?
14:47	gfredericks	hrm.
14:47	amalloy	gfredericks: i don't think you do. currying means that any function, when called with "not enough" arguments, will return a partially-applied version of itself
14:47	gtrak	when ((partial + 1) 2) returns 3
14:48	amalloy	gtrak: i was wondering if you'd picked that example by accident or what
14:48	gfredericks	amalloy: I understand how that works in haskell, I'm just having trouble applying it to this clojure discussion
14:48	amalloy	(not= + '+)
14:48	gfredericks	I think I get it now though.
14:48	gtrak	amalloy, ah, it's just a straight symbol and not the function?
14:49	gfredericks	is currying incompatible with multiple-arities?
14:49	amalloy	gtrak: '(+ 1) is a list containing a symbol
14:49	scottj	strangeloopers: was it clear how sussman's propagator idea was different from cl-cells/dataflow?
14:49	pjstadig	gfredericks: i believe in a curried language, multiple arities are just syntactic sugar
14:50	gtrak	scottj, sussman's propagator is probably much more involved since it doesn't exist :-)
14:50	brehaut	gfredericks: its by itself no; its incompatible with multiple arities (or varargs) in combination with a lack of static generic types
14:50	shtutgart	by the way, why does ~some-seq return (...), not [...]? I've always have to do [~@some-seq] or stuff like that so clojure won't try to call first elem as a fn
14:50	gfredericks	pjstadig: so is this possible in haskell? (fn ([a b] (* a b)) ([a b c] (+ a b c)))?
14:50	brehaut	gfredericks: via deep magic ;)
14:50	scottj	gtrak: oh his code was psuedocode?
14:51	amalloy	shtutgart: it just returns whatever some-seq is. if it's a seq, then pretending to be a vector would be a lie
14:51	brehaut	gfredericks: you have to use return type polymorphism and some typeclass voodoo but yes, completely achievable
14:51	gtrak	scottj, i think the mathy stuff worked, but he was proposing something much grander
14:51	gfredericks	brehaut: it sounds ambiguous :/
14:52	brehaut	gfredericks: pervasive finickity types make it not the case
14:52	gfredericks	so if I want to call (f 2 4), then if I say I want an integer return type it calls the 2-arity version, and if I say I want a function-that-returns-integer type then it partially applies the 3-arity version?
14:53	brehaut	gfredericks: f :: int -> int -> int is different to f :: int -> int -> (int -> int)
14:53	gfredericks	what's the difference?
14:53	gfredericks	oh wait
14:53	gfredericks	sorry
14:53	gfredericks	miscounted some ints
14:53	Borkdude	If pred? would only return its arg and nil otherwise, you can just do (comp f pred?), but maybe that's not idiomatic?
14:54	brehaut	gfredericks: remeber that ML family languages dont need parens on a function call
14:54	gfredericks	brehaut: so did I summarize it poorly...?
14:54	gfredericks	was I wrong?
14:54	shtutgart	amalloy: indeed; so it's a &'s fault
14:54	brehaut	gfredericks: ah i imissed yur summary
14:55	brehaut	gfredericks: you are correct; my bad
14:55	Borkdude	no wait, sorry
14:55	Borkdude	bullshit
14:55	Borkdude	;)
14:57	gfredericks	so in haskell you can have two functions with the same name and argument types but different return types?
14:57	amalloy	shtutgart: no offense but it's kinda your fault for wanting something that would be nice in the limited scope you're working with but doesn't make sense in general. ~foo must return the value of foo without any sort of transformation on it, even though that transformation would be useful in the specific case where you're writing a macro and intend to use the result as a value rather than a function call
14:58	brehaut	gfredericks: yes, but only if you define them with a typeclass
14:58	brehaut	gfredericks: the canonical example is read
14:58	brehaut	&heval 1 + 1
14:58	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: heval in this context
14:59	amalloy	for example, consider (defmacro add-and-print [& args] (let [func (cons `+ args)] `(print ~func)))
14:59	amalloy	$heval 1 + 1
14:59	lazybot	⇒ 2
14:59	brehaut	amalloy: thanks
14:59	brehaut	$heval (read "1") :: String
14:59	lazybot	⇒ "*Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
15:00	brehaut	$heval (read "1") ::Int
15:00	lazybot	⇒ 1
15:00	brehaut	$heval (read "1") :: Float
15:01	lazybot	⇒ 1.0
15:01	brehaut	gfredericks: ^
15:01	devn	$heval (read "1")
15:01	lazybot	⇒ *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
15:01	gfredericks	brehaut: that example sure was canonical!
15:01	brehaut	gfredericks: :P
15:02	brehaut	$heval read "\"1\""
15:02	lazybot	⇒ *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
15:02	gfredericks	well. Thanks for the haskell lesson everybody.
15:02	gfredericks	amalloy: does ##(inc lazybot) do inline karma?
15:02	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: lazybot in this context
15:03	devn	there's your answer :)
15:03	gtrak	is haskell eval sandboxed too?
15:03	gfredericks	devn: that just means that's not the syntax for it :P
15:03	Bahman	Is it possible to recur from a lambda function?
15:03	brehaut	gtrak: trivially so ;)
15:03	gtrak	Bahman, trampoline
15:03	gfredericks	Bahman: you can name it with (fn foobar [a] a) also
15:04	brehaut	$heval performUnsafeIO
15:04	gfredericks	if you have limited recurring to do
15:04	lazybot	⇒ Not in scope: `performUnsafeIO'
15:04	gtrak	brehaut, ah, right, you need some sort of monad
15:04	Bahman	Thanks.
15:04	brehaut	gtrak: specifically you need the IO monad
15:05	shtutgart	amalloy: yeah I agree, that's the truth, but... that [~@coll]s just make me sad :)
15:07	amalloy	trampoline sounds like a terrible answer to this question, fwiw
15:08	gtrak	why?
15:08	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
15:10	mrnex2010	Hi, how can i convert a lazy seq back into a persistentList? i have (def a '(1 2 3)) and i can succesfully do (str a) and if i do (def b (map identity a)) and then try: (str b) it returns shite
15:10	gfredericks	mrnex2010: use (apply str b)
15:10	amalloy	unlikely to be what he wants
15:10	mrnex2010	it concatenates them
15:11	gfredericks	mrnex2010: or (pr-str b), sorry
15:11	mrnex2010	yep, i want it to respect the structure
15:11	amalloy	&(pr-str (range 4))
15:11	lazybot	⇒ "(0 1 2 3)"
15:11	mrnex2010	fucking a!
15:11	mrnex2010	thanks
15:11	mrnex2010	im building a proof of concept for non dev builds, from rhickey's keynote
15:11	gfredericks	IRC: one guy answers real fast, then the other guy sits back and figures out why he's wrong.
15:12	mrnex2010	thx a lot gfredericks & amalloy
15:12	gregh	gfredericks: also, stack overflow
15:12	gfredericks	no doubt
15:13	gtrak	gfredericks, sometimes i just say things
15:13	gfredericks	gtrak: I find that's a good way to learn
15:14	gfredericks	vectors are like eager functors, but more simplected.
15:14	gtrak	lol
15:14	brehaut	gfredericks: ouch
15:14	gtrak	vectors are hashsets with integer indicies
15:14	gtrak	and an easy iteration capability
15:15	gfredericks	index-sets of the form (range N)
15:15	gfredericks	key-sets rather
15:15	gtrak	yes, non-negative integers
15:16	brehaut	aka natural numbers
15:16	gfredericks	"The Nats"
15:16	gtrak	"There is no universal agreement about whether to include zero in the set of natural numbers"
15:17	gtrak	fool
15:17	gtrak	:-)
15:17	brehaut	goddamn mathematicians going and messing with me again
15:17	gfredericks	eh it's just about names
15:17	gtrak	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_number#History_of_natural_numbers_and_the_status_of_zero
15:18	brehaut	i thought the whole point of the term natural numbers was because whole numbers was ambigious :P
15:18	gfredericks	there should be a name for "the other set". Maybe "The Unnatural Numbers". It means whichever set the natural numbers doesn't.
15:18	gfredericks	I prefer to include 0, as otherwise "positive integers" is readily available
15:19	gtrak	i think 'non-negative' implies 0 more than 'positive'
15:19	gfredericks	yes
15:19	gfredericks	I mean positive integers is a name for Z+
15:19	gfredericks	i.e. (1,2,...)
15:19	gfredericks	I'm just going to stop talking.
15:19	gtrak	rather 'positive ints' doesn't imply 0 as much as non-negative ints
15:19	Bahman	Does anyone know to what address can I send my suggestions If I have for "Joy of Clojure"?
15:20	Bahman	...have some for...
15:21	Raynes	/dev/null
15:21	Raynes	;)
15:21	TimMc	technomancy: Oh god what is this thing where there should be "fn"...
15:22	TimMc	what have you done
15:22	Bahman	Raynes: I have received some letters from hell that asked me to stop pumping everything (mostly garbage) to /dev/null :-)
15:22	gtrak	Bahman, http://joyofclojure.com/errata/
15:22	Raynes	Heh
15:22	michael_campbell	TimMc: the function symbol in emacs?
15:22	TimMc	Yes.
15:22	Bahman	gtrak: Thanks.
15:22	TimMc	I started using emacs-starter-kit at work.
15:22	michael_campbell	TimMc: yeah, that's special, isn't it. There's a lambda in there somewhere too
15:23	TimMc	It messes up my column counts.
15:24	TimMc	technomancy: You don't know what powers you're playing with!
15:24	michael_campbell	I've installed it too; after 23+ years of emacs, I'm not sure I can make the jump to ido-mode. I'm trying, honestly, but old habits are fierce.
15:25	amalloy	<3 ido
15:25	TimMc	ido is the wonderful thing that makes buffer and FS navigation easy?
15:25	amalloy	yes
15:25	TimMc	<3
15:25	michael_campbell	"easy" in RIch Hickey's terms, sure. "Simple"... no.
15:26	TimMc	right
15:26	michael_campbell	and I'm just used to the old-school way of doing it. so my finger memory is all confused now
15:26	TimMc	It took me a while to figure out how to create a file with a space in the name. :-)
15:26	michael_campbell	I haven't tried; how do you?
15:26	TimMc	Something to do with C-q
15:27	michael_campbell	ah, right. standard emacs quoting
15:27	tyconnell	Someone says emacs, and I have a chicken lady moment.
15:27	amalloy	TimMc: you can also press C-f again to switch out of ido
15:27	michael_campbell	I had to figure out how to open "the current directory in which the file you're looking at is sitting".
15:27	michael_campbell	C-x C-f . C-j.
15:28	TimMc	C-j is enter?
15:28	TimMc	ish
15:28	amalloy	tyconnell: i would goodle for "chicken lady moment", but for fear of what i might find
15:28	pauldoo	when clojurescripting, is it sensible to have an almost empty html file, and emit the dom content through a "main()" function triggered onload?
15:30	TimMc	michael_campbell: Aha, I found the little bastard: .emacs.d/starter-kit-lisp.el:61
15:30	dnolen	pauldoo: emitting dom content from JS is going to be slower than having the markup already there on the page to manipulate via JS.
15:31	pauldoo	dnolen: slower in what sense? runtime performance, loading time, development time..
15:31	TimMc	pauldoo: http://ejohn.org/blog/dom-documentfragments/
15:32	dnolen	pauldoo: runtime performance, loading time - maybe even development time - generating DOM via code is error-prone.
15:32	pauldoo	ahh ok - I'm really not fussed about runtime performace. still "hello worlding" my way around google closure + clojurescript.
15:33	pauldoo	I was just interested if emitting from clojurescript is seen as more flexible or idiomatic in some way
15:33	michael_campbell	TimMc: Thanks!
15:33	amalloy	pauldoo: your app also won't work at all without js enabled. if you emit actual html, you can at least have nice fallbacks
15:34	dnolen	pauldoo: emitting is just not idiomatic based on how browsers work. The fastest thing is - the markup is already there, innerHTML, create elements - in that order IMO.
15:34	pauldoo	dnolen: right-o. I understand
15:35	dnolen	creating DOM trees in code is just crazy tedious.
15:35	pauldoo	even with the power of macros?! surely not… :p
15:35	TimMc	michael_campbell: I'm imagining that scene in the Matrix where they extract the "bug" from Neo's abdomen.
15:35	michael_campbell	hahahah
15:35	dnolen	pauldoo: I was going to say that :) but I consider it bad practice.
15:36	dnolen	not macros - DOM generation via code.
15:36	pauldoo	dnolen: hehe.. thanks for your advice.. :) I'm still experimenting for now. I have no experience of JS or HTML. trying to ignore them and go entirely clojurescript. (maybe it's not a sensible thing to try)
15:37	michael_campbell	TimMc: how did you remove it; just comment out the add-hook?
15:37	dnolen	pauldoo: sure, I think there are some opportunities for ClojureScript to make dealing w/ the DOM sensible - but I haven't had any time to pursue any directions along those lines.
15:38	gtrak	pauldoo, take a look at pinot
15:38	gtrak	there's a dom.cljs
15:38	gtrak	https://github.com/ibdknox/pinot/blob/master/src/pinot/dom.cljs
15:41	michael_campbell	Other than 4clojure, are there other sorts of "solve these puzzles in clojure" type sites to get one more familiar with the language?
15:41	gtrak	labrepl
15:41	klauern	I've yet to try it, but clojure koans sounds fun: https://github.com/functional-koans/clojure-koans
15:42	jjido	rosettacode
15:42	TimMc	michael_campbell: I nuked the whole top level add-hook thing, yeah.
15:42	TimMc	pauldoo: The DocumentFragment thing I linked is one thing to consider, but also check out enlive if you want to generate some markup on the server.
15:43	pauldoo	TimMc: thanks
15:43	scottj	michael_campbell: there's also a site w/ euler project solutions
15:44	michael_campbell	Thanks scottj, jjido, klauern, gtrak - all bookmarked!
15:45	R4p70r	Is clojure sort a stable sort?
15:45	TimMc	I bet it uses the Java Collections sort, so look there.
15:45	gtrak	R4p70r, java sort is timsort in java7 i think
15:45	jjido	michael: what is your prog background ?
15:46	Raynes	$cd sort
15:46	lazybot	clojure.core/sorted-map: http://clojuredocs.org/v/1494
15:46	lazybot	clojure.core/sorted?: http://clojuredocs.org/v/1558
15:46	lazybot	clojure.core/sorted-map-by: http://clojuredocs.org/v/1783
15:46	TimMc	R4p70r: j.u.Collections/sort is stable
15:46	michael_campbell	jjido: 20 years, of c, c++, perl, and java. But it's not been deep; one reason I'm coming to clojure is I've realized my "X" years of experience are really "X/5" years, repeated 5 times over. I want to do something new.
15:46	TimMc	,(doc sort)
15:46	clojurebot	"([coll] [comp coll]); Returns a sorted sequence of the items in coll. If no comparator is supplied, uses compare. comparator must implement java.util.Comparator."
15:47	TimMc	Yup, that's probably it.
15:47	gtrak	michael_campbell, lisp is a good thing to learn then
15:47	michael_campbell	jjido: That said, i'm a language whore, and have played around the edges of a lot of different langs; at least enough to get the ideas... somewhat.
15:47	Raynes	Kind of strange that searching clojuredocs for sort or clojure.core/sort gives you everything but sort itself on top.
15:47	klauern	I find myself struggling with clojure, but I think of it as a good thing. :)
15:47	klauern	Really stretches you to think about things differently
15:47	TimMc	Raynes: ClojureDocs uses different orderings for the dropdown autosuggest and the actual search page.
15:48	gtrak	clojure/lisp/scheme shows you the essence of things
15:48	michael_campbell	gtrak: <nod> I specifically am into clojure (as opposed to Scala, right now), so I don't fall back into doing "language x" in a style with which I am comfortable.
15:48	R4p70r	Thanks
15:49	scottj	Raynes: clojure.core/sort is the first result for me in the autocomplete search box and in the search results for sort
15:49	michael_campbell	and as I have said, I've been into emacs for longer than Raynes has been on this earth (plus a few years), so the lispy syntax doesn't bother me like it does some.
15:49	Raynes	scottj: I was referring to the API search endpoint.
15:49	Raynes	I can already see that becoming a meme.
15:50	gtrak	michael_campbell, i think what happens if you do enough lisp is you lose heart for specific styles of coding, since you can abstract absolutely anything
15:50	amalloy	Raynes: it's been a meme for longer than you've been alive
15:50	Raynes	Indeed.
15:50	michael_campbell	chuckle
15:51	jcromartie	signed bytes are insane
15:51	jcromartie	why does Java have signed bytes
15:51	gfredericks	signed bytes and rvm.
15:51	amalloy	i sign all my bytes. don't want anyone impersonating me
15:52	jcromartie	rvm?
15:52	michael_campbell	gpg signed bytes. only 2K overhead for each one.
15:52	jcromartie	heh :)
15:52	R4p70r	I love having these "source" links right in the documentation but loading core.clj from github makes Firefox really slow.
15:52	gfredericks	jcromartie: ruby version manager. My current source of pain.
15:52	jcromartie	ah yes
15:53	jcromartie	rvm is insane
15:53	jcromartie	Is there a good bit/byte packing/unpacking lib for Clojure?
15:53	amalloy	michael_campbell: that'll be a language primitive in the next compiler i write
15:53	jcromartie	a la Ruby's String#unpack :)
15:53	amalloy	ultra-secure
15:53	michael_campbell	amalloy: Nice. I've always wanted to write a compiler and to save space, the error message table would just be, "No."
15:54	brehaut	michael_campbell: have you looked at prolog?
15:54	amalloy	hah
15:54	michael_campbell	"looked at" in the strictest sense of the word, yes. Not even begun to delve into its idioms or usage.
15:54	TimMc	michael_campbell: "Ugh, why would you think that would work?" "Haha, as if!" "That is not valid syntax." "You're missing a thing."
15:55	Raynes	That last one is golden.
15:55	gtrak	prolog says that stuff?
15:55	brehaut	gtrak: No.
15:55	michael_campbell	TimMc: I'm reminded of my early college days; Pascal on a mainframe. The errors would be like ".... at line 6. Did you miss a semicolon?" Why, yes, yes I did. Now put it in there if you guessed I needed it and keep on going FFS.
15:55	amalloy	TimMc: elected for president of the Clojure Error Messages committee???
15:55	lazybot	amalloy: Oh, absolutely.
15:56	R4p70r	michael_campbell, Pascal has semicolons?
15:56	TimMc	michael_campbell: That might be a brilliant ues-case for a condition system.
15:56	michael_campbell	R4p70r: absolutely. But when I write it, evidently too few ;_)
15:56	brehaut	gtrak, michael_campbell: prolog answers any query it cant satisfy (or when it has exausted its results) with "No."
15:57	gtrak	michael_campbell, better than python, >>> exit replies 'Use exit() or Ctrl-Z plus Return to exit'
15:57	michael_campbell	brehaut: Hah, awesome. And I didn't patent the idea - blast it!
15:57	michael_campbell	gtrak: yes, that's a class misfeature of a UI.
15:57	gtrak	it knows unambiguously i want to exit, and insists on being pedantic :-)
15:58	michael_campbell	thus, "pythonista".
15:58	TimMc	gtrak: Luckily it knows about C-d
15:58	amalloy	(def exit (lazy-seq (System/exit 0)))
15:58	Raynes	I like Python's approach -- yo, do it right or don't do it at all.
15:58	brehaut	gtrak: there should be only one, obvious, (for a dutchman) way to do anything
15:58	gtrak	even at the repl?
15:58	Raynes	Yes.
15:59	brehaut	gtrak: it satisfies all the criteria for the pythonism :P
15:59	gtrak	lamesauce
15:59	michael_campbell	The problem is there are various ideas of "right", so really, "You do it the way we say, or you don't do it at all" is more like it. Even when "the way we say" is pathological.
15:59	TimMc	amalloy: Haha, nice!
16:00	TimMc	I demand that Leiningen use that.
16:00	gtrak	brehaut, the thing is, it's only persuasive if you agree with them, i find a lot of their decisions arbitrary wrt to their effects
16:00	R4p70r	michael_campbell, Guess you're right I've done some Turbo Pascal but it seems I have forgoten a lot of it.
16:00	brehaut	gtrak: you wont find me defending python very much ;)
16:00	amalloy	or (def exit (delay (System/exit 0))). this lets you issue a macho-sounding (force exit)
16:05	amalloy	huh. i seem to have gotten emacs into a state where clojure-jack-in displays "error in process filter: Cyclic keymap inheritance"
16:06	Bahman	I get "Unable to resolve symbol: find-doc in this context" when trying to use 'find-doc'. Anything special I should do before accessing the fucntion?
16:06	Raynes	amalloy: When that happens, the solution is usually to keep doing it until it works.
16:06	Bahman	function
16:06	amalloy	Raynes: amusingly, that's how i got into this state
16:07	Raynes	Heh
16:07	gtrak	how big of a prog is emacs?
16:07	amalloy	i think that question has a countably-infinite number of correct answers. clarify intent?
16:08	gtrak	source LOC
16:08	gtrak	just curious
16:08	amalloy	iirc it's a couple million lines if you add together the C and elisp?
16:08	gtrak	oh jesus :-)
16:09	technomancy	https://www.ohloh.net/p/emacs/analyses/latest
16:09	gtrak	so we can't rewrite it in clojure?
16:09	technomancy	that insane leap last year was the merge of cedet
16:09	amalloy	dang, who is this Other guy. he gets a lot done
16:09	Bahman	gtrak: With Swing? phew
16:10	Raynes	gtrak: Everybody tries it, everybody fails.
16:10	gtrak	ha, well the rendering could be anything
16:10	amalloy	whoa this chart is interactive
16:10	gtrak	Raynes, people actually try to write emacs?
16:10	Raynes	$google Haskell yi
16:10	lazybot	[Yi - HaskellWiki] http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Yi
16:10	michael_campbell	gtrak: a "wc -l" of all files in the pre-build windows binary distribution give 2,464,300. That's just files (which includes .exe's, so ... not 100% correct there)
16:11	gtrak	damn, that's a lot of lips
16:11	michael_campbell	and includes both .el and .elc (the compiled versions of the .el)
16:11	Bahman	gtrak: Though it would be nice to have a web-based Clojure IDE which stores the source files on the server/cloud.
16:11	gtrak	lisp
16:11	technomancy	wow, the amount of C in emacs has actually gone down since '08; that's encouraging
16:11	gtrak	Bahman, yea, you don't really need a full emacs for that though
16:12	amalloy	emacs has 195 lines of java code in it? i wonder what it does and where it is
16:12	technomancy	amalloy: tests, I'm sure
16:12	amalloy	ah. yes
16:12	amalloy	cedet-java autocomplete tests
16:12	Bahman	amalloy: That's when they tried to reduce the speed of Emacs key-reader to make programmers feel they type fast :-D
16:13	brehaut	LispReader.java is the reader implementation for clojure right?
16:13	michael_campbell	amalloy: and 776 lines of C# (!?)
16:13	amalloy	michael_campbell: if you want to do this sort of analysis you should check out cloc
16:13	Bahman	So folks, any idea about my problem?
16:14	Raynes	&(require 'clojure.repl)
16:14	lazybot	⇒ nil
16:14	Raynes	&(clojure.repl/find-doc "print")
16:14	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.tools.logging/debug ([message & more] [throwable message & more]) Macro Debug level logging using print-style args. ------------------------- clojure.tools.logging/error ([message & more] [throwable message & more]) Macro Erro... failed to gist: Connection reset
16:14	Raynes	Heh, I really, really need to update clj-github to Github's v3 API. Surely it doesn't suck as bad as the old unofficial gist API.
16:15	amalloy	michael_campbell: the C# is a miscount by cloc, afaict
16:15	Bahman	Thanks Raynes.
16:15	michael_campbell	Ah.
16:15	amalloy	it's a .cs file meaning something other than C#
16:16	michael_campbell	<nod> RMS allowing C# code in the source base did seem suspect.
16:16	amalloy	ah. a tutorial in czech
16:17	brehaut	phwoar, theres a lot of stuff happing in the reader
16:17	gtrak	yea
16:19	brehaut	the java formatting for the clj imp still surprises me
16:20	gtrak	i think it shows how little respect rich has for classes
16:20	brehaut	lol
16:21	gtrak	the try-catch is really odd though
16:21	licenser	neat neat :) I start to like clojurescript
16:22	Bahman	In which namespace can I find 'javadoc'?
16:22	gtrak	he puts { } on the same indentation as the insides
16:23	Raynes	Bahman: Pretty sure there is no 'javadoc' function.
16:23	TimMc	There was...
16:23	brehaut	clojure.java.javadoc/javadoc ?
16:23	TimMc	I think it was a contrib
16:23	Raynes	Really?
16:23	brehaut	,(apropos 'javadoc)
16:23	Raynes	Holy crap.
16:24	clojurebot	()
16:24	Raynes	http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.java.javadoc-api.html
16:24	licenser	Raynes mate :)
16:24	licenser	now are you?
16:24	Raynes	Fantastic.
16:25	licenser	great great :) I read your slides, I am seriously impressed with what you did there :)
16:25	TimMc	gtrak: He also eschews Javadocs, it seems.
16:25	Raynes	licenser: <3
16:25	gtrak	yea, it's quite hard to read
16:25	gtrak	maybe deliberately
16:26	TimMc	Trying to interop from the Java side is pretty rough.
16:26	gtrak	i wonder if he uses emacs for java
16:28	brehaut	gtrak: perhaps its to shock you into realise you are reading ordinary java code and to read it careful
16:29	gtrak	i think it's probably because he works alone most of the time
16:29	michael_campbell	The brace style is "Whitesmith", looks like.
16:30	brehaut	whatever the brace style is, ive got my work cut out making a valid tokenizer
16:30	klauern_	I'm having some trouble with the korma library and WHERE clauses
16:30	michael_campbell	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indent_style#Whitesmiths_style
16:30	klauern	For instance, if I type this:
16:31	klauern	(sql-only (select bobs (where (:ROWNUM [< 50]))))
16:31	klauern	I get back
16:31	klauern	"SELECT * FROM bobs WHERE "
16:31	klauern	Now, could it be that since ROWNUM is a pseudocolumn, it doesn't work?
16:32	michael_campbell	what do you get when you use something other than :ROWNUM?
16:32	klauern	The same
16:32	klauern	(sql-only (select bobs (where (:id [< 50]))))
16:32	klauern	"SELECT * FROM bobs WHERE "
16:32	michael_campbell	>:-\
16:33	klauern	It seems odd
16:33	brehaut	klauern: does (where (< :id 50)) do anything different?
16:33	hiredman	klauern: I think that is supposed to be a map
16:33	klauern	changes it a bit
16:33	klauern	"SELECT * FROM bobs WHERE 10"
16:33	hiredman	{:id [> 50]}
16:34	hiredman	(but I've never used korma, dunno)
16:34	klauern_	Yeah, i'm just starting to play around with it
16:34	TimMc	I've always been uncomfortable with the select/from/where syntax.
16:35	hiredman	http://sqlkorma.com/ the examples have it as a map
16:35	TimMc	It should be FROM/WHERE/GROUP-BY/HAVING/SELECT/LIMIT or something
16:36	jcromartie	I wish I could better convey my feelings about the interface for ClojureQL and Korma... for instance the (sql-only ...) vs just printing the non-deref'ed RTable object in ClojureQL.
16:37	jcromartie	like, in Korma, a dry-run or getting the SQL is the extra step, whereas in ClojureQL actually executing it is the extra step
16:37	jcromartie	right?
16:37	kephale	what is the best way to reduce a boolean sequence with or? i'm guessing #(or %1 %2) isn't
16:37	clojurebot	to be fair I dunno that I've ever had code out right rejected, it just sits in jira or assembla or where ever, or if I ask if there is any interest (before writing any code) I get told to go write alioth benchmarks
16:37	technomancy	dakrone: did I catch your intention correctly that you're planning on taking a look at the lein 1.6.2 JVM_OPT issue you found?
16:37	dakrone	technomancy: I am planning to if I ever have any time, but by all means feel free to get to it before I do :)
16:38	technomancy	dakrone: got my hands full with designing 2.0; thanks. =)
16:40	TimMc	kephale: some
16:40	licenser	technomancy: kudos for joining forces with cake
16:40	TimMc	&(some [false nil 2 true])
16:40	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$some
16:40	TimMc	&(some identity [false nil 2 true])
16:40	lazybot	⇒ 2
16:40	technomancy	licenser: thanks, but it wasn't my idea. =)
16:40	kephale	mmm with identity
16:40	kephale	TimMc: cool, ty
16:41	TimMc	Yeah, it's a little silly, but whatever.
16:41	Raynes	Because I want Leiningen stickers.
16:41	licenser	technomancy: no matter all involved showed really personal greatness I think :) so rare to see people join forces and not devide
16:42	technomancy	hm; I should see if my new employer could finance the second run of stickers.
16:44	cemerick	technomancy: it'd likely be essentially free if they were printed on the same sheets as the other heroku stickers
16:45	TimMc	technomancy: leiningen.core/exit accepts an optional exit code... do you think anyone actually uses that?
16:46	scottj	have your cake and lein it too
16:46	technomancy	TimMc: sure; it's mostly for CI contexts to communicate to jenkins/travis whether to consider the build successful
16:47	TimMc	technomancy: Ah... so it's not just for the REPL, right. But what about REPL users?
16:47	technomancy	I'd be surprised if repl users care about the exit code
16:47	devn	Raynes: you joining heroku?
16:48	technomancy	theoretically you could do "lein repl, deploy" and have the deploy task only go through if you had a zero exit code
16:48	Raynes	devn: He means the Leiningen + Cake teams.
16:48	devn	oh, sorry, just stumbled in
16:48	technomancy	I'd be surprised if anyone actually did that, but it should work.
16:53	jcromartie	so
16:53	tyconnell	@mac users: is there a preferred EMACS application?
16:53	jcromartie	this whole "spark" script thing on HN today
16:54	jcromartie	I think I wasted my day playing with UTF and weird terminal stuff
16:54	jcromartie	a
16:54	jcromartie	and doing it in Ruby, and then Clojure, and the Java just to remind me how annoying it would be
16:55	jcromartie	someone take a look at this and let me know if it's reasonable... because honestly I'm not sure https://gist.github.com/5cd0f0f31cdd9db84199
16:55	jcromartie	like, I want to believe programming in Java is not that bad
16:55	Bahman	Is there a macro equivalent to Common Lips's WITH-OPEN-FILE ?
16:55	brehaut	with-open
16:55	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
16:55	Bahman	brehaut: Thanks.
16:56	TimMc	jcromartie: Link to the HN sparklines post?
16:56	technomancy	tyconnell: http://emacsformacosx.com is the way to go
16:56	jcromartie	TimMc: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3237478
16:56	jcromartie	and now compare Java and clojure :) https://gist.github.com/3517ed2c343bbbc3adae
16:57	jcromartie	but I don't know... is there a better way to do it in Java?
16:58	tyconnell	technomancy: thanks
16:59	bhenry	is there an implicit do on when?
16:59	Raynes	bhenry: Yes.
17:00	bhenry	thanks
17:00	Raynes	&(macroexpand '(when foo bar))
17:00	lazybot	⇒ (if foo (do bar))
17:08	aaelony	hey all, I'm specifying clojure 1.3.0 in my project.clj but getting strange lein deps errors that reference 1.2.0. Details here http://pastie.org/2869248. Suggestions appreciated on what I'm missing...
17:09	TimMc	aaelony: Transitive dependency?
17:09	aaelony	TimMc: not sure what I would eliminate...
17:09	technomancy	that's weird; top-level dependency declarations should always take precedence
17:10	technomancy	aaelony: if you have maven installed, "mvn dependency:tree" is really helpful for these kind of situations
17:10	aaelony	technomancy: let try that mvn command
17:10	TimMc	`lein pom` first
17:11	technomancy	oh yeah, good point
17:11	aaelony	here's the pom: http://pastie.org/2869273
17:12	technomancy	that's a lot of snapshots. =(
17:12	aaelony	ok, I'll see about removing snapshots
17:13	technomancy	aaelony: well, it's unrelated to the problem you're having
17:13	technomancy	just a good idea to avoid them in real production apps
17:13	aaelony	makes sense
17:13	jcromartie	I wonder if this Zach Holman guy is trolling.
17:15	jcromartie	anyway
17:17	devn	where?
17:17	clojurebot	where is your source code
17:18	devn	jcromartie: what are you referring to?
17:19	jcromartie	devn: the spark thing. I seriously don't understand how a bad shell script that doesn't work correctly and takes 30 seconds to run one of its examples got 400 points on HN
17:19	devn	oh, heh, yeah I saw that
17:19	hiredman	I've been thinking about having clojurebot do inference, e.g. if 'A is X' and 'X is B' asking about A will get you 'A is X' or 'A is B'
17:19	jcromartie	jcromartie: when it could be 5% of the LoC in another language, and work right, and actually handle the data that they use for their example!
17:20	jcromartie	seriously, the earthquake data doesn't even render correctly
17:20	devn	jcromartie: it's portable
17:20	jcromartie	barely
17:20	hiredman	a long with some kind of inference budget per lookup
17:20	Raynes	jcromartie: Talking to yourself is a sign of mental illness.
17:20	jcromartie	the first version didn't work on OS X
17:20	jcromartie	Raynes: hah oops
17:21	michael_campbell	Raynes: I think NOT talking to yourself is a sign of that too. Perhaps more so!
17:21	Raynes	I'm terrible company.
17:21	brehaut	hiredman: that would be very cool
17:22	devn	michael_campbell: I like that point. If you aren't constantly thinking "stuff" that you keep to yourself, you might be even crazier. That being said, limiting the lengths to which you chat with yourself seems healthy.
17:22	joly	Talking to yourself is ok, and answering yourself isn't too bad. But if you start going "What?!", then you're in trouble.
17:22	Borkdude	You can always hit M-x doctor
17:22	michael_campbell	I find myself asking me, Dude, seriously, WTF? more often than I'd like.
17:23	michael_campbell	I work out of my house right now, so talking to myself (or rather, scolding myself for that crap I wrote "some time ago") is pretty common
17:23	devn	get a rubber duck :)
17:24	R4p70r	Anyone know if the doctor source code actually worth reading? I remember reading something about it in "Coders at work"...
17:24	Borkdude	Just wondering, is there any standard on how to annotate Java in a code review?
17:25	michael_campbell	Borkdude: that's often some company standard.
17:25	michael_campbell	have never seen a canonical way, other than "the Sun java coding standard" or somesuch
17:30	hiredman	anyone know if there is a way to get cl-format to human format numbers like -h on du?
17:31	Borkdude	michael_campbell: any suggestions on how to annotate it, just use comments, can I use javadoc to get an overview of them, etc?
17:38	devn	hiredman: oh man, it's been awhile since I looked at that. I remember there being a ton of cl printing options in clojure
17:43	tcj	I just wrote my first utility using clojure. It connects to a DB and does some stuff. What is the best way to configure this utility (e.g. DB creds). Currently, these are hard-coded in the source. I have a Java properties file with all the values that I need. It'd be cool to use that. But I'm more concerned with doing things in a "Clojure way". I have a hunch the Clojure way is to do config...
17:43	tcj	...using Clojure. Is this right? Any advice? Would it make sense to store my config as a global map?
17:44	technomancy	tcj: just a static map read off the classpath is pretty common
17:46	tcj	technomancy: Just so I'm clear... this would be something like config.clj available in my CP. Correct?
17:46	technomancy	tcj: sure
17:46	tcj	cool. Thanks!
17:51	kurtharriger	tcj: Take a look at https://github.com/4clojure/4clojure.git, it uses a config.clj file which it reads with read-eval false. It seemed like a pretty good approach to me
17:52	kurtharriger	tcj: sorry copied the git url not the http url https://github.com/4clojure/4clojure
18:04	Borkdude	kurtharriger: cool! I think I'm going to use it as well
18:05	technomancy	Borkdude: mind if I privmsg?
18:05	Borkdude	technomancy: go ahead
18:06	tcj	Borkdude: thanks. I'll have a look
18:13	mjwhitt	ok, I have a stupid question, how do I println to stderr?
18:13	technomancy	clojurebot: what is the most horrible thing?
18:13	clojurebot	most horrible thing is http://tinyurl.com/b65o8e
18:13	ibdknox	lol
18:13	technomancy	~botsnack
18:13	clojurebot	Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
18:14	Raynes	mjwhitt: (binding [out err] (println "I'm out of errs"))
18:14	ibdknox	mjwhitt: (binding [out err] (println "hey"))
18:15	ibdknox	hm
18:15	ibdknox	:p
18:15	mjwhitt	lol jynx
18:15	Raynes	I win.
18:15	ibdknox	yeah yeah. ;)
18:15	mjwhitt	thanks guys
18:17	hiredman	so the idea is, clojurebot would have some budget for infering, determining how many inferences and how deep they can go per lookup, and it would keep some kind of log of the inferences that it used, and if some "favorable response" heuristic was triggered (botsnacks or something?) all inferences made in the past minute or so would get reified as actual factoids
18:18	Arafangion	clojurebot: Do you like hiredman's idea?
18:18	clojurebot	Huh?
18:18	ibdknox	lazybot: what about you???
18:18	lazybot	ibdknox: Yes, 100% for sure.
18:18	lazybot	It's AWWWW RIGHT!
18:19	ibdknox	Raynes: wtf is that? ^
18:19	Raynes	It's a command.
18:19	Raynes	And a hook.
18:19	brehaut	questionmarks???
18:19	ibdknox	the it's awww right part?
18:19	lazybot	brehaut: How could that be wrong?
18:19	Raynes	You just triggered two things at once.
18:19	ibdknox	lol
18:19	ibdknox	cuz I'm awesome
18:19	Raynes	The 'it's awwww right" part is the 'what' command.
18:20	ibdknox	ah
18:20	Raynes	$what do you think of Noir?
18:20	lazybot	It's AWWWW RIGHT!
18:22	Arafangion	Personally, I think clojurebot's already the most realistic.
18:22	ibdknox	lol
18:22	Arafangion	I mean, most of the time i ask a girl a question, they respond much the same.
18:28	R4p70r	Sites like 4clojure.com and online REPLs use Java sandboxing I guess?
18:28	ibdknox	R4p70r: Clojail
18:29	R4p70r	ibdknox, I'll have to read about that.
18:32	Raynes	R4p70r: I gave a talk about it at the Conj, but the video isn't out yet. Keep and eye out for it if you're interested.
18:35	Borkdude	Raynes: I liked your slides, especially the one about being a Stuart Sierra groupie
18:35	Borkdude	https://github.com/relevance/clojure-conj/blob/master/2011-slides/anthony-grimes-clojail.pdf <-- slides
18:38	amalloy	technomancy: i don't remember the huge mess of php errors last time i saw that link. it kinda makes it even more horrible
18:38	ibdknox	everybody loves PHP errors
18:39	ibdknox	it's the hallmark of a great site ;)
18:39	amalloy	and they're so severe! severity 8192 is serious business!
18:41	ibdknox	that's damn near nuclear holocaust severity
19:01	ibdknox	hm
19:02	ibdknox	clojurebot appears to be showing the same thing from clojars over and over
19:03	alexbaranosky	ibdknox: I'm thinking of doing a 5-minute lightning talk on Noir at work this week
19:03	ibdknox	alexbaranosky: cool :D
19:03	alexbaranosky	ibdknox: going to see if I can somehow cram Mongo into there as well, but 5 minutes is pretty tight
19:04	ibdknox	mongo's pretty simple, so I could possibly see it working
19:04	alexbaranosky	exactly
19:06	amalloy	ibdknox: twice in a row is "over and over"? we are harsh masters to our slavebots
19:06	ibdknox	:p
19:06	alexbaranosky	rofl
19:06	ibdknox	amalloy: listen. They are here for our satisfaction
19:06	technomancy	clojurebot: eventual consistency is for losers
19:06	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
19:07	ibdknox	if they start to get out of line, we have to keep them in check... otherwise you get skynet
19:07	amalloy	technomancy: you might in fact have to tell him twice, if you want to make sure you get the same answer back before tomorrow...
19:07	ibdknox	lol
19:07	technomancy	nice
19:08	ibdknox	~eventual consistency
19:08	clojurebot	eventual consistency is for losers
19:14	ninjudd	ibdknox: we talked a bit about a unified backend for clojureql and korma at the conj. curious if you've had any more thoughts on it
19:15	ninjudd	bendlas is working on a blog post about the future of clojureql, so he'll be interested in your thoughts too
19:19	ibdknox	ninjudd: I definitely think it would make sense
19:19	ibdknox	I suspect there are a couple things that will need to happen to enable it, namely the subselect stuff I mentioned
19:26	alexbaranosky	ibdknox: does the noir+mongo tutorial still work? I got the first half working easily with Noir, but the mongo code I added is giving me an Application Error
19:26	ibdknox	hm I think so? though I didn't write that tutorial
19:27	alexbaranosky	ibdknox: you've got a link to it on Noir, so I thought maybe you're aware of it
19:27	alexbaranosky	on the Noir site)
19:27	ibdknox	alexbaranosky: yep yep, I know what you're talking about. I know it did work
19:27	ibdknox	but congomongo has been changing some
19:28	ibdknox	(for the better)
19:28	alexbaranosky	wait, let me try something, dont' spend any moe time on it
19:28	alexbaranosky	I used a newer version of congomongo, silly me
19:29	ibdknox	the latest versions of congomongo make it really easy to use
19:29	ibdknox	much easier than that older version
19:30	ibdknox	we use it for our logging code
19:30	ibdknox	and what we have isn't much more complicated than what's in the congomongo readme :)
19:31	alexbaranosky	mongo thinks about data much the way Clojure thinks of data, which makes them feel like a good match
19:31	ninjudd	ibdknox: think it makes sense to split the backend sql compiler out into a separate project we can all contribute to?
19:32	brehaut	from http://clojure.org/reader: "Symbols begin with a non-numeric character and can contain alphanumeric characters" is alphanumeric here [a-zA-Z0-9] or does it include non-english characters as well?
19:33	ibdknox	ninjudd: I'll have to think about that. It would probably make sense, but I hadn't originally built it with that level of separation in mind.
19:34	amalloy	brehaut: i mean, the current impl allows pretty much anything. it's hard to know what's "guaranteed" given that the wiki is not really canonical
19:35	brehaut	amalloy: thats a bit difficult. i guess i'll just be extremely permissive about what looks like symbols then
19:36	ninjudd	ibdknox: yeah. no hurry. FWIW, we could steal the name sqleton (pronounced sqeleton) from our incomplete schema migration library
19:36	budu	hi
19:36	ibdknox	ninjudd: haha that's a good name :)
19:36	budu	i've got a small question about ClojureScript
19:36	ninjudd	or name it after some other indian food ;) vindaloo?
19:36	ibdknox	lol
19:37	Bahman	How do I swap two characters in a string?
19:37	ninjudd	Naan or Basmati? since that's what you put your Korma on
19:37	budu	it currently doesn't support Refs nor STM
19:37	ibdknox	Naan is delicious
19:37	amalloy	ninjudd: sqeleton is not a very thorough pronunciation guide :P. neets to start more like squell
19:38	ninjudd	sqleton, rhymes with skeleton
19:38	ibdknox	I mean really you know it's got to be a good library if it's named after food
19:38	ibdknox	lol
19:38	ibdknox	now I need a library named Brisket :D
19:38	jcromartie	sqleton... nice
19:38	budu	does someone knows if it will get implemented one day?
19:38	ninjudd	the most important part of deciding if something should be a separate library is figuring out a name for it
19:38	ibdknox	budu: why do you need them?
19:38	amalloy	budu: javascript doesn't have multiple threads so there's not much point
19:39	ibdknox	ninjudd: true...
19:39	budu	ok
19:39	jcromartie	masala has a nice ring
19:39	budu	forgot about that!
19:39	ibdknox	budu: atom's exist though
19:39	ibdknox	budu: so you can pretend :D
19:39	amalloy	Raynes: you should write a lazybot plugin that registers every word ibdknox says as a library on clojars
19:39	Raynes	Sure.
19:39	amalloy	then sell em
19:39	ibdknox	noooooo those are mine
19:40	ibdknox	I was surprised I got watchtower
19:40	amalloy	ibdknox: i'll be using my new "noooooo" library to generate xml
19:40	amalloy	soap, maybe
19:40	ibdknox	amalloy: haha
19:40	technomancy	clojurebot: via soap?
19:41	clojurebot	"They enable us to send XML messages through SOAP. Through SOAP!!!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch
19:41	technomancy	=(
19:41	ibdknox	lol
19:41	budu	ibdknox: btw, congratulation on Korma
19:41	ibdknox	budu: haha thanks :)
19:41	budu	ibdknox: i haven't used it yet but it looks great
19:41	ibdknox	we'll see if you say the same thing once you use it ;)
19:42	budu	i'm thinking about adding support for delimited identifiers
19:42	ibdknox	delimited identifiers?
19:42	budu	quoted tables, columns name
19:42	ibdknox	ah
19:42	ibdknox	everything is quoted now
19:42	ibdknox	though spaces are problematic for that...
19:43	budu	already! cool
19:43	ibdknox	people actually put spaces in their table names?
19:43	ibdknox	that's terribel
19:43	ibdknox	terrible*
19:43	ibdknox	budu: yeah, check out 0.3.0-alpha
19:43	ibdknox	I was productive on the plane ride back :)
19:43	budu	yeah the SQL standard is quite permissive with delimited identifier
19:43	alexbaranosky	ibdknow: I think I've seen space-serpated reporting db table names
19:47	mabes	is there something like proxy but that takes an already existing object? I basically, want to create a delegate/proxy object that has meta data for an underlying java object
19:48	cgray	here's a strange thing... I'm putting in type hinting and at some places, ^int works, but at others I have to use ^Integer... any ideas why that would be?
19:48	technomancy	ibdknox: I love committing on a plane.
19:49	ibdknox	technomancy: gotta use that time for something :)
19:49	mabes	cgray: maybe you have an Integer instead of an int.. what version of clojure are you on? You can try doing (int foo) instead of typehinting
19:49	gfredericks	That was a movie with Samuel L Jackson, right?
19:49	technomancy	ibdknox: I also watched one of the videos from last year's conj
19:49	cgray	mabes: i'm on 1.3
19:50	mabes	cgray: okay, I'm not as familiar with 1.3 but try replacing ^Integer with (int x).. also, have you verified that the method you are trying to call accepts the primitive form?
19:52	cgray	mabes: I think the problem is trying to call subs
20:02	nickmbailey	whats the best way to get the 3rd, 6th, 9th, etc items out of a collection
20:02	nickmbailey	take-nth is almost what i want but it gives the first element than skips n
20:02	ibdknox	drop 3
20:02	ibdknox	and then take nth
20:02	cgray	(map last (partition 3 coll))
20:02	ibdknox	,(doc take-nth)
20:02	clojurebot	"([n coll]); Returns a lazy seq of every nth item in coll."
20:03	brehaut	M isnt the only suffix for numbers now is it?
20:03	ibdknox	,1.0N
20:03	hiredman	,1N
20:03	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 1.0N>
20:03	clojurebot	1N
20:03	hiredman	bleh
20:03	brehaut	thanks
20:03	ibdknox	hm
20:03	brehaut	and it always has to be capitalized?
20:03	nickmbailey	drop and take-nth should work, thanks
20:04	ibdknox	,(take-nth 3 (range 1 11))
20:04	clojurebot	(1 4 7 10)
20:04	ibdknox	,(take-nth 2 (range 1 11))
20:04	clojurebot	(1 3 5 7 9)
20:04	nickmbailey	,(take-nth 3 (drop 2 (range 1 9)))
20:04	clojurebot	(3 6)
20:05	nickmbailey	^thats what i wanted
20:05	ibdknox	yep yep, I was just playing around with it :)
20:05	brehaut	fantastic. i have working number tokenizer and its only 62 lines long :S
20:05	nickmbailey	the doc for take-nth seems confusing
20:05	nickmbailey	at least to me
20:06	cgray	,(map last (partition 3 (range 10)))
20:06	clojurebot	(2 5 8)
20:06	budu	i've got another question...
20:06	ibdknox	,(take-nth 3 (range 10))
20:06	clojurebot	(0 3 6 9)
20:06	ibdknox	,(rest (take-nth 3 (range 10)))
20:06	clojurebot	(3 6 9)
20:06	gfredericks	,(->> 10 range (take-nth 3) rest)
20:06	clojurebot	(3 6 9)
20:06	budu	does somebody knows what happened with the contrib.datalog library
20:07	technomancy	budu: its author seemed to indicate it should be rewritten
20:07	technomancy	seems doubtful it'll be promoted to 1.3
20:07	budu	i was thinking it could be rewritten using core.logic
20:08	budu	but that job seem over my current capabilities
20:08	technomancy	what better way to extend your capabilities
20:08	budu	hehehe
20:09	budu	i'll have a look at the code but i don't promise anything
20:09	budu	i'm just getting into core.logic, it's fun
20:09	cgray	how do you translate 'var foo = { bar: 4, baz: 5 }' into cljs?
20:09	ibdknox	my capabilities were directly tied to my ability to come up with names... now that amalloy is stealing all of them I fear I am a mere shell of a man
20:09	budu	and give me headashes at the same time! ;-)
20:10	technomancy	sqleton is pretty great
20:10	ibdknox	cgray: as in you need that line exactly?
20:10	cgray	ibdknox: well, that idea
20:11	ibdknox	cgray: (let [foo {:bar 4 :baz 5}] ...) ?
20:11	gfredericks	hrm..clutch still depends on contrib
20:11	cgray	ibdknox: i think i need the names not to be munged though...
20:11	ibdknox	cemerick: shame! ^
20:12	ibdknox	cgray: there's a magical js-object function I think
20:12	cgray	ibdknox: I'm looking at http://code.google.com/apis/maps/documentation/javascript/overlays.html#Markers
20:12	ibdknox	cgray: ah
20:12	Bahman	Suppose I need to swap character 0 and 2 of string 's'. Is there any way other than (str (nth s 2) (nth s 1) (nth s 0) (subs s 3)) ?
20:12	ibdknox	cgray: just provide strings as keys and you'll be fine
20:12	cgray	ibdknox: ok, thanks
20:16	ibdknox	budu: as far as you know double-quotes work for all dbs right?
20:16	ibdknox	budu: in terms of delimited identifiers
20:29	ninjudd	technomancy: thanks! =)
20:37	budu	ibdknox: no
20:38	budu	ibdknox: better answer.. nearly
20:39	ibdknox	budu: what are the corner cases?
20:40	ibdknox	the lists I found seemed to indicate "some-ident" would work everywhere
20:40	budu	ibdknox: in fact (after revision) in term of input all RDBMS accept quoted identifiers
20:41	budu	ibdknox: it's just that when querying the schema for SQL Server for example it will return bracketed identifiers by default
20:42	ibdknox	budu: ah, I see. I should be ok then, since I never interpret the results myself/ask for the schema
20:42	budu	ibdknox: also for MySQL the ANSI_QUOTES mode must be enabled, but i think it is by default now
20:43	ibdknox	budu: yeah it used to be back-tick right?
20:43	budu	ibdknox: exactly
20:43	ibdknox	budu: k, thanks :)
20:43	budu	funny example from MySQL doc: CREATE TABLE `a``b` (`c"d` INT);
20:44	budu	preceded by "The following statement creates a table named a`b that contains a column named c"d: "
20:44	budu	crazy stuff!!!
20:44	ibdknox	wow
20:44	ibdknox	this is an example of flexibility gone wrong
20:45	alexbaranosky	yikes!
20:45	ibdknox	I hate SQL. :p
20:45	hiredman	~A is X
20:45	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
20:45	budu	there's so much hilarious stuff inside the SQL standard and implementations doc, forgot about most of them to maintain my sanity
20:45	hiredman	~X is B
20:46	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
20:46	hiredman	A?
20:46	clojurebot	A is X
20:46	hiredman	hmm
20:46	hiredman	A?
20:46	clojurebot	A is X
20:46	hiredman	I guess
20:46	ibdknox	hiredman: you're trying to turn clojurebot into an inference engine?
20:46	hiredman	A?
20:46	clojurebot	A is B
20:46	hiredman	trying?
20:47	ibdknox	haha :)
20:47	budu	this is weird
21:07	aperiodic	~succ 0 is 1
21:07	clojurebot	Ok.
21:07	bhenry	working with clojurescript atom. i'm swap!ing it and then calling something that derefs it to make changes to the dom. however it appears to be asynchronous, because the second command doesn't work within the function. if i wait a few seconds and run it in the repl, it works fine. any ideas on how to get around this?
21:09	aperiodic	~succ (n + 1) is succ (succ n)
21:09	clojurebot	Ok.
21:09	aperiodic	~0 + 1 is 1
21:09	clojurebot	Roger.
21:09	brehaut	simple profiling of my syntaxhighligher brush has it at about 7 times faster than the regexp based solution im hoping to replace
21:10	ibdknox	brehaut: nice :)
21:11	brehaut	ibdknox: yeah im stoked :) brutally imperative code sometimes pays off
21:12	cemerick	ibdknox: ?
21:13	ibdknox	cemerick: oh, somebody said something about clutch uses contrib and I was being funny :p
21:13	cemerick	ah :-)
21:13	cemerick	all of its usage is 1.3-safe
21:13	cemerick	modulo irritating warnings about earmuffed vars
21:13	ibdknox	stupid earmuffs
21:14	cemerick	ibdknox: settled in again after the conj?
21:14	ibdknox	cemerick: I got back at like 9:30 last night
21:15	cemerick	oh, right
21:15	cemerick	my sense of time was totally destroyed between saturday night and monday morning
21:16	amalloy	ibdknox: almost 24 hours! why no new libraries yet?
21:16	cemerick	I got one hour of sleep before my flight on Sunday :-P
21:18	ibdknox	cemerick: lol :p
21:19	ibdknox	amalloy: I needed a dash of sleep ;)
21:20	ibdknox	I did however sketch out some stuff on the plane for some nice time helpers ;)
21:23	gfredericks	`lein search` is not kidding about taking a while to download indexes
21:25	chouser	my sense of time was destroyed from pretty much the start of the conj until yesterday
21:26	cemerick	Man, I feel bad about messing with nREPL's protocol now. :-(
21:26	chouser	I was going to follow that up with a funny anicdote, but it turns out not to be funny.
21:27	chouser	cemerick: why's that?
21:27	brehaut	syntax highlighting question: should meta stuff be highlighted a) all the same (regardless of the literal types) ie all grey, b) exactly as they normally would be, c) some halfway point ie, desaturated versions of b) ?
21:27	cemerick	chouser: https://twitter.com/#!/kotarak/statuses/136567617304543232
21:27	cemerick	He knew it was coming, but still…
21:27	cemerick	brehaut: opacity:.75?
21:27	brehaut	personally im leaning towards c) as it falls back to b) with the appropo CSS anyway
21:27	brehaut	cemerick: yeah exactly
21:27	cemerick	+1
21:28	brehaut	sold!
21:29	chouser	interesting.
21:30	cemerick	That's client #4.
21:42	TimMc	technomancy: Is the most horrible thing that that page is made almost entirely of PHP errors?
21:42	bhenry	almost ready to push our new ui into production, written entirely in clojurescript. unfortunately it's an intranet app so we can't show it off.
21:47	alexbaranosky	bhenry: sweet. Too bad you can't show it off
21:50	amalloy	show off the compiled js. nobody will be able to find the NDA-protected stuff in all that, eh?
21:51	alexbaranosky	amalloy you're always thinking these great ideas
21:51	alexbaranosky	;)
22:02	alexbaranosky	amalloy: do you know of a 1.3 ordered map implementation?
22:03	amalloy	alexbaranosky: you're referring to my Ordered library? it looks like it doesn't actually need contrib anymore; the dependency is just there because it was there earlier
22:04	alexbaranosky	we're using yours in Midje
22:04	amalloy	actually that might not be true. i have like a zillion branches of this thing and i'm not sure which one is released; hang on while i poke around
22:05	alexbaranosky	amalloy: looks like we have an entire copy of your library pasted into Midje :\
22:06	alexbaranosky	amalloy: guess Brian was rushed, and just tweaked yours
22:06	amalloy	alexbaranosky: i can't say i blame him. i released a version that contains silly benchmarking crap
22:16	amalloy	alexbaranosky: it looks like his fork fixes a number of silly issues with my released version, and works with 1.3, so i'm not sure what you mean by a "1.3 ordered map implementation"
22:18	alexbaranosky	amalloy: was looking at the code spew in the Midje source. didn't realize he had forked your project
22:19	amalloy	all the same, i'll pull in his changes and push a new version to clojars
22:19	alexbaranosky	yeah that'd be great
22:19	alexbaranosky	looks like all he really had to do was change the deps ?????
22:19	amalloy	yes
22:23	amalloy	alexbaranosky: deployed his changes to clojars. happy testing
22:24	alexbaranosky	thanks
22:35	alexbaranosky	amalloy: update Midje to use the new jar.
22:36	alexbaranosky	amalloy: correction, updated
22:49	alexbaranosky	does anyone know where I can find an immigrate function?
22:53	amalloy	alexbaranosky: in the blackest pits of hell
22:53	alexbaranosky	amalloy: or in Midje
22:54	amalloy	seriously immigrate is vile and evil
22:54	alexbaranosky	I was looking for somewhere public to grab one from, but it may in fact be a function relegated to the depths of hell, apparently
22:54	alexbaranosky	I wonder what we're using it for
22:54	amalloy	i added something like it to useful recently, though, so i can't really take a moral high ground
22:55	amalloy	alexbaranosky: probably for re-exporting stuff from semi-sweet into sweet or something like that
22:55	alexbaranosky	yep
22:55	aperiodic	does immigrate move things between namespaces?
22:56	alexbaranosky	doc: "Create a public var in this namespace for each public var in the
22:56	alexbaranosky	namespaces named by ns-names. The created vars have the same name, root
22:56	alexbaranosky	binding, and metadata as the original except that their :ns metadata
22:56	alexbaranosky	value is this namespace."
22:56	ibdknox	evil.
22:57	aperiodic	why would you do that rather than requiring the namespace?
22:57	alexbaranosky	requiring it wouldn't make it public to consumers of the namespace???
22:57	lazybot	alexbaranosky: Oh, absolutely.
22:59	alexbaranosky	looks like this way you don't have to use both midje.sweet AND midje.checkers
23:00	amalloy	i really hate using it for that purpose (folding a dependency into a "parent" ns), but i have only a strong distaste for using it to combine two non-dependent namespaces
23:00	amalloy	eg, specifically we wanted useful.core to be a conglomeration of useful.*
23:00	alexbaranosky	amalloy: I'd be open to hearing other ways of achieving the same effect
23:01	aperiodic	yeah, i can see how it could be handy for that reason, but i'd hope that you wouldn't put much else in the conglomerated ns
23:01	amalloy	aperiodic: nothing else, so far
23:01	ibdknox	ordered?
23:02	amalloy	ibdknox: maps and sets that retain insertion order
23:02	alexbaranosky	we use ordered-map for the binding map created from the tabular macro
23:03	ibdknox	I see
23:03	amalloy	alexbaranosky: fold checkers into sweet (probably not viable), or create another namespace that does nothing but re-export sweet&checkers
23:03	amalloy	even call it sweet if you want, and rename the existing sweet to sweet-impl
23:04	alexbaranosky	honestly... it is causing any harm
23:04	wtfcoder	when including clojure-contrib in dependenices of package.clj do i need to specify a repository, lein deps results in not found in repos
23:04	alexbaranosky	I'd rather spend time fixing a bug
23:04	alexbaranosky	or doing a new feature
23:04	amalloy	alexbaranosky: i kinda agree. i'm overly aggressive about this issue, like a number of others. you have to learn to ignore me
23:04	alexbaranosky	of course, I appreciate the convo about it
23:05	ibdknox	alexbaranosky: I never listen to amalloy
23:05	amalloy	ibdknox: surprisingly apropos, unless...surely you didn't listen to me in order to decide to agree!?
23:06	amalloy	wtfcoder: you probably asked for a version that doesn't exist, and also you meant project.clj
23:07	brehaut	amalloy: i have local lookup working for the brush :)
23:07	wtfcoder	yes, and yes..do I have be explicit with version number or can I just put 1.. and let it grab the latest
23:08	PPaul	(inc wtfcoder)
23:08	lazybot	⇒ 1
23:09	PPaul	(inc)
23:09	PPaul	(inc 1)
23:09	lazybot	⇒ 2
23:09	PPaul	(inc (inc 1))
23:09	lazybot	⇒ 1
23:09	PPaul	no
23:09	amalloy	wtfcoder: 1.. is [1.0.0,2.0.0)
23:10	amalloy	though there are a lot of people who think version ranges are bad for the soul
23:10	wtfcoder	okay, confused, im coming from nodejs here if I believe can specify in my project.json to get "thirdpartylib": "1.2.x" and anything from 1.2.x will be pulled in with npm install . (akin lein deps)
23:13	technomancy	version ranges are incompatible with repeatable builds
23:13	ibdknox	yeah, I don't like ranges
23:14	technomancy	which is OK for libraries (assuming you've tested it with everything in the range) but terrible for applications
23:14	technomancy	version ranges that include versions that don't yet exist are an anathema
23:14	wtfcoder	following out the box lein conventions, if i have a jar that isnt sourced from clojars/mvn, such as ms sql jdbc driver, do i just drop in the lib directory
23:14	ibdknox	you can't know if your stuff will work for a future version
23:14	wtfcoder	technomancy, idbknox, on reflective that makes sense, absolutely.
23:15	technomancy	wtfcoder: you can install it locally with the lein-localrepo plugin if it really doesn't exist in any repository, but be sure to file a bug with the library maintainers to get them to publish it
23:15	amalloy	ibdknox: in theory it would be fine if everyone followed semver strictly
23:16	wtfcoder	okay, one other question coming from node.js package manager if I want see info for a package i just type 'npm info clojure-contrib' and it tells me author, current version string, repo, license etc.., does lein/maven have such a thing or do you just bounce around from clojure to mvn etc.. to find the jar
23:16	ibdknox	amalloy: that's a big if :p
23:16	wtfcoder	s/clojure/clojar
23:16	amalloy	indeed
23:17	technomancy	wtfcoder: "lein search" will show you all the version numbers
23:17	technomancy	but you have to download the indices first, (one time) which is pretty slow
23:17	technomancy	it'll tell you which repo it comes from
23:18	technomancy	most jars have a pom inside that includes license and URL if the author has specified it
23:19	technomancy	that's an interesting idea for a feature though
23:21	technomancy	in case anyone's, you know, looking for a project idea, hint hint
23:22	wtfcoder	working on getting hello world going before given consideration ;)
23:23	klauern	I'd like to test out Aether support whenever it gets to be alpha. I'm not a Clojurian per se, but I have a really horrible enterprisey setup that would at least suss out stupid edge cases
23:24	klauern	http proxy settings, Maven settings, private Maven server, Windows...
23:24	technomancy	klauern: would love to get more folks kicking the tires, reporting bugs, etc.
23:24	technomancy	klauern: are you on the leiningen mailing list?
23:24	klauern	I don't think so
23:25	klauern	Is that the google group?
23:25	technomancy	yeah
23:25	technomancy	I'll announce it there once that's transitioned
23:25	klauern	I'll have to update some settings if I am, because I don't get emails from that group (yet)
23:26	technomancy	the main thing we still have to do before aether gets merged is to figure out what parts of leiningen make sense as a library vs what should stay in the application
23:36	choffstein	Can anyone point me to the docs for -?>
23:36	choffstein	I can't seem to find it anywhere online
23:36	amalloy	i don't think -?> made it into new-contrib
23:37	amalloy	it's really just -> with a short-circuit on any nil
23:37	brehaut	(clojure.algo.monads/domonad clojure.algo.monads/maybe-m […] …) ;)
23:37	amalloy	ouch
23:37	brehaut	no?
23:37	brehaut	fine
23:37	amalloy	brehaut the dream-crusher
23:38	brehaut	lol
23:40	rsenior	-?> is a little masked by the defnilsafe macro
23:40	rsenior	but it's here: https://github.com/clojure/core.incubator/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/incubator.clj
23:41	choffstein	awesome. thanks
23:42	choffstein	brehaut: I was trying to avoid monads ;) Try as I may, monads wreak me conceptually. Still haven't quite gotten the full handle on them yet
23:42	brehaut	choffstein: it was mostly a joke ;)
23:43	amalloy	$dict wreak
23:43	lazybot	amalloy: verb-transitive: To inflict (vengeance or punishment) upon a person.
23:44	choffstein	Man lazybot is helpful
23:55	amalloy	choffstein: we'll stop adding features as soon as it's possible to do everything you could possibly want without leaving #clojure