#clojure – 2011-11-14

2011-11-14

00:05	amalloy	no
00:08	klauern	ok
00:35	seancorfield	in a lein project file, how can i have code to build the dependencies and then specify that in the :dependencies entry?
00:44	amalloy	seancorfield: "code to build the dependencies"?
00:59	seancorfield	amalloy: i assumed i could create the dependencies in code and then drop them into the defproject but that doesn't work... so i hoping there's a trick to making it work?
01:00	seancorfield	back story: i'm switching to lein-multi and i have a long dependency list but only a small part will change across the multi-deps
01:00	seancorfield	so i want to have a main list and then conj on just the things that change...
01:35	amalloy	seancorfield: defproject doesn't get evaled, as far as i know. there's some sort of rudimentary syntax-quote support that might do what you want but i've never used it
01:40	amalloy	seancorfield: yes, that works
01:40	amalloy	defproject is a macro, but it politely looks inside its body to see if you've unquoted anything, and evals that
01:41	amalloy	so (defproject foo "1.0.0" :dependencies ~(into [...] (for [x whatever] ...)))
01:58	antares_	seancorfield: hi. I would love your opinion on https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger
03:31	licenser	so are macros actually working in cljs or is that a rumor? I've not gotten one to work yet :(
03:46	Blkt	good morning everyone
03:51	leo2007	In slime C-c C-m does not seem to expand, for example, #(.toLowerCase %)
04:19	robermann	hello
04:41	tsdh	Hi robermann
05:08	wtfcoder	for first real app experiement, Im going to port a C# console app that use nightly, it pulls information from a SQL server view (simple flat queries), builds a json representation, performs some minor transformations, and http posts this to our nosql store (couchdb)
05:08	wtfcoder	the relevants libraries exist for Java so i dont technically that it will be a problem
05:09	wtfcoder	is the best way to approach this top down, or bottom up, should I port the low-level functions from c# or start at high level
05:10	wtfcoder	im thinking the best way is high-level, should i start with say (defn sqlserver2couchdb [dbReader, couchPublisher] ) where dbReader and couchPublisher are functions?
05:49	fliebel	duck1123: How is OStatus doing?
06:17	jowag	what was Rich's talk at conj about?
06:21	fliebel	jowag: Hm, I had hoped it would be here. https://github.com/relevance/clojure-conj/tree/master/2011-slides
06:27	fliebel	Did Rich do a talk at all? I can;t find any mention of itl.
06:40	jowag	he should have had a keynote on Friday, 04:40 - 05:40pm, according to http://clojure-conj.org/schedule#fri
08:13	jcromartie	does ClojureQL support transactions across several inserts/updates?
08:28	gfredericks	jcromartie: I might be crazy, but you might be able to use the transaction macro from clojure.data.sql
08:30	jcromartie	gfredericks: you may be crazy, indeed
08:31	jcromartie	if ClojureQL uses c.c.sql underneath
08:31	jcromartie	oh clojure.data.sql? has it moved?
08:32	gfredericks	yeah
08:32	gfredericks	though clojureql may still point to c.c.sql
08:32	jcromartie	it must have only moved in an unreleased version
08:32	gfredericks	I'm sorry
08:32	jcromartie	there's no documentation of c.d.sql
08:32	gfredericks	clojure.java.jdbc
08:32	gfredericks	is what I should have said
08:33	gfredericks	but anyhow, clojureql does use c.j.jdbc
08:33	gfredericks	therefore, unless you know otherwise, I stick with my assertion that you could maybe use the transaction macro from c.j.jdbc
08:34	antares_	jcromartie: if clojureql doesn't do what you want, take a look at http://sqlkorma.com, it is new, well maintained and also uses clojure.data.jdbc under the hood
08:34	gfredericks	I looked through the clojureql source once or twice, and my impression was that it made use of c.j.jdbc in a pretty straightforward manner
08:34	jcromartie	yes
08:34	jcromartie	looks like it would work
08:34	jcromartie	I saw Korma last week
08:34	jcromartie	looks nice
08:35	jcromartie	at the moment, I might just need to use something lower level though
08:35	jcromartie	I'm trying to adapt a very old badly-designed db
08:35	jcromartie	and it's MSSQL
08:35	jcromartie	so certain things are just slightly weird enough and unsupported in ClojureQL or Korma
08:35	jcromartie	OK but riddle me this
08:35	jcromartie	has clojure.contrib.sql become clojure.java.jdbc or what?
08:36	antares_	jcromartie: yes
08:38	jcromartie	it's hard to keep up sometimes
08:38	jcromartie	:P but... mental note added!
08:42	jcromartie	the problem is all the old cruft on Google
08:42	jcromartie	I think I just need a good "starting point" for canonical information on this sort of thing
08:43	jcromartie	clojure.org is a good one :)
08:44	pyr	jcromartie: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
08:44	licenser	aloa :)
08:44	licenser	since the conference is over perhaps i get some smart people: Question is: has anyone used macros in clojurescript beyond very trivial things?
08:45	licenser	because I can't get anything more complicated then a add to work which is somewhat frustrating and I'm not sure if I'm just too dumb or cljs is seriously broken when it comes to macros
08:47	Fossi	i thought macros were pretty special in that they don't really work runtime
08:47	licenser	Fossi: yap they run at 'compile' time but for me they keep breaking things :(
08:48	Fossi	so, what's the problem? the code they generate doesnt run?
08:49	Fossi	or does the compile fail?
08:49	licenser	from what I figured is that cljs does not go along with the way macros resolve names
08:49	Fossi	i'm about to try to write some clojurescript which is also valid clojure or the other way round, so i guess i might run into those problems as well
08:50	licenser	for example from (. ~context (save)) it makes "(. 1 (clgl.macros/save))" with context 1
08:50	licenser	which is ewww
08:50	licenser	but that is a general problem in my macro I fear
08:51	licenser	I had something evil with bindings, since the binding arguments always got full namespace names :(
08:55	jcromartie	ah
08:55	licenser	or perhaps I am doing it horribly wrong o.o
08:55	licenser	hi jcromartie
08:55	jcromartie	licenser: hi
08:59	jcromartie	I guess [clojureql "1.0.2"] is not ready on clojars yet
08:59	jcromartie	LauJensen: FYI
09:20	jcromartie	yarg
09:21	jcromartie	I guess I need to use ClojureQL from source to use it with Clojure 1.3
09:30	adamh	v/win 2
09:41	michael_campbell	Morning #clojurians.
09:42	AWizzArd\|work	$seen lpetit
09:42	lazybot	lpetit was last seen quitting 1 week ago.
09:42	jcromartie	ok so, let's say I want to use Clojure 1.3 and clojure.java.jdbc ... what is my project.clj going to look like?
09:43	jcromartie	err
09:43	jcromartie	hold on
09:43	jcromartie	never mind
09:52	jcromartie	I am afraid Korma is not quite up to the challenge of our DB structure :)
09:52	jcromartie	it has some of the weirdest joins and relationships
09:52	jcromartie	things that really make no sense
09:54	jcromartie	it can get us halfway there
09:55	jcromartie	but the idea of an entity mapping to one table is pretty much out the window here
09:55	bhenry	jcromartie: i thought he made it so that you could write your own abstractions for the weird stuff.
09:56	jcromartie	bhenry: maybe... I am sure I could mix it in with raw c.j.jdbc
09:57	ejackson	jcromartie: You're already into clojureQL ? Perhaps my funky join generator (https://github.com/ejackson/relation) could help you ?
09:57	jcromartie	ORM-ish :) yeah that's where we're at
09:57	jcromartie	ORM falls apart
09:57	jcromartie	but -ish might be right
09:58	ejackson	its maintains a hierarchy of relationships between tables (nexus.clj) and then chains of joins (chain.clj)
09:58	jcromartie	interesting
09:58	ejackson	yeah, its not yet released, but I'm using it
09:59	duck1123	I'm still waiting for the ORM-ish abstraction for Korma
09:59	ejackson	an example of how its used in in my (also unreleased) simple bookeeping system (https://github.com/ejackson/bookkeeper/blob/master/src/bookkeeper/journal_entry.clj)
10:00	duck1123	I switched from clj-record, and found that I was still missing some of the abstractions that clj-record had that I had to re-write
10:00	jcromartie	I am really just trying to put a nice API on top of a really nasty DB
10:01	jcromartie	the ideas going on in the DB are not really what I want to be using in my application
10:01	jcromartie	so, yeah...
10:01	duck1123	sometimes there's no helping the really odd structures
10:01	ejackson	yeah, I've got a similar thing. transactions and joins to the rescue.
10:02	Borkdude	What would be suited material for students to begin with Clojure? (most of em are on Windows)
10:02	Borkdude	Also IDE: I think teaching them Emacs first is not an option...
10:04	ejackson	Borkdude: Counterclockwise in Eclipse.
10:04	cemerick	Borkdude: and if you run into problems, you can bug me. ;-)
10:04	cemerick	ejackson: Hi! :-D Pleasant flight back?
10:05	Borkdude	cemerick: deal :)
10:05	ejackson	cemerick: oh yes... AA is a delight.
10:05	Borkdude	cemerick: I already thought about it, because they have used Eclipse bfore
10:05	cemerick	Borkdude: there is a google group though, which is fairly active.
10:06	cemerick	ejackson: sarcasm, surely? ;-)
10:06	Borkdude	cemerick: how are dependencies handled, can you use lein in combination with ccw?
10:06	TimMc	Borkdude: Let 'em get a little experience with CLI.
10:06	ejackson	By blocking out all sensory input I found it delightful...
10:07	TimMc	ejackson: Full anaesthesia?
10:07	jcromartie	at least give them rlwrap
10:09	ejackson	TimMc: Just about :)
10:10	Borkdude	jcromartie: gotta check that out then
10:10	cemerick	Borkdude: Leiningen support is very near the top of the TODO list, but there's no integration there yet. Workarounds include http://sexp.posterous.com/poor-mans-integrating-leiningen-into-counterc and https://github.com/abrenk/lein-eclipse and just using `lein pom` in conjunction with m2eclipse (which they may have installed already for other purposes?).
10:12	Borkdude	cemerick: what is the normal way of getting dependencies then in ccw/eclipse? maven?
10:14	Borkdude	cemerick: or getting them with lein deps and then manually adding them to the classpath in eclipse?
10:14	raek	I know that some people run lein deps and add the jars that appear in lib/ to the classpath in eclipse
10:16	jcromartie	I think maybe Korma or ClojureQL can get us halfway there
10:16	jcromartie	but the hope is to create a modern API on top of the DB and then migrate the old structure away
10:16	jcromartie	so that it is sane
10:16	cemerick	Borkdude: If you're using m2eclipse, then the results of `lein pom` will be picked up automagically by the plugin. If not, then yeah, `lein deps` and then a re-selection of the updated jars from /lib does it.
10:17	cemerick	Leiningen integration in ccw is definitely 'coming soon', for some short definition of 'soon'.
10:20	jcromartie	is the developer of Korma on here?
10:22	cemerick	jcromartie: wait an hour or two, ibdknox is on PST.
10:22	jcromartie	I see
10:33	chouser	Aaaaa... I thought I knew clojure, but now I see I don't know anything.
10:33	TimMc	cemerick: Hapen to know if there are any lein plugins that set up .classpath and .project files?
10:33	cemerick	TimMc: That's what https://github.com/abrenk/lein-eclipse is.
10:34	TimMc	sweet
10:34	TimMc	Although I guess the lein pom + m2e trick would do that too.
10:34	cemerick	disclaimer: I've never used it, but it's apparently worked well for others.
10:34	cemerick	TimMc: That's what I do with leiningen projects currently.
10:35	TimMc	I'm trying to wedge some Clojure into a project at work, you see. :-)
10:35	cemerick	Sure, totally understand. Ping back if you hit issues.
10:36	cemerick	chouser: I still don't get it myself, but do share… ;-)
10:36	chouser	trying to switch from home-made vim/maven/etc. setup to emacs/lein/slime ...I have no idea what's going on anymore.
10:36	zerokarmaleft	chouser: you didn't lose a finger, did you?
10:37	cemerick	chouser: Ah, the hive mind envelops.
10:38	drewr	chouser: as a longtime user of lein+swank I often have the same feeling
10:39	drewr	I typically upgrade in a moment of weakness and then spend some amount of time fixing whatever breaks
10:39	zerokarmaleft	i can't remember who opened their talk with that weird enlightenment metaphor
10:39	drewr	zerokarmaleft: fogus
10:39	hhutch	i missed that
10:40	hhutch	i'm waiting for the video to hear the whole thing
10:40	michael_campbell	I missed most of what Fogus said, and I was 15' away from him.
10:40	cemerick	hah
10:40	michael_campbell	The scala DSL of Basic I understood... at least the output.
10:41	chouser	drewr: well, that's encouraging. :-P
10:42	tensorpudding	switching from vim to emacs is hard enough, without having to migrate to slime at the same time
10:42	drewr	it's (usually) worth it :-)
10:42	drewr	tensorpudding++
10:43	tensorpudding	oh, it's definitely worth it
10:43	drewr	for me it was 10 years ago and wanting gnus
10:43	tensorpudding	to me gnus was a fancy way of crashing emacs
10:43	drewr	oh, my other comment was directed at chouser
10:43	tensorpudding	because that's what it did every time i tried
10:45	drewr	tensorpudding: custom emacs build?
10:45	tensorpudding	no?
10:45	drewr	or emacs23, notoriously unstable for a release
10:45	tensorpudding	it was in the days of emacs 23
10:45	drewr	probably wasn't gnus's fault
10:45	michael_campbell	Gnus was much nicer when Lars started rewriting it as Ding. And the doc was fabulously funny, too.
10:46	drewr	michael_campbell: I showed up shortly after
10:47	michael_campbell	<nod> I remember quite literally laughing out loud reading the info on it. But, like anything that size, notoriously hard to get set up the way you wanted. a gajillion backends, email reading with it, automatic scoring.... (!!)
10:48	tensorpudding	i like thunderbird for mail well enough
10:50	drewr	michael_campbell: but on the other hand... all the time I've spent on it has paid off. it's the one thing in my toolchain that never breaks and never says no when I need it to do something
10:51	michael_campbell	gnus or emacs?
10:52	drewr	well, both, but I was specifically referring to gnus
10:53	michael_campbell	gotcha.
10:56	michael_campbell	nice, codebass' conj flickr album is up.
11:01	gtrak	any word on the lectures videos?
11:01	michael_campbell	That they were filmed I can confirm. Timing for release... no idea.
11:03	gtrak	i especially want the overtone one :-)
11:03	bhenry	gtrak: follow @confreaks for video release info
11:03	gtrak	thanks
11:04	bhenry	i also can't wait to show that one to everyone
11:04	michael_campbell	I was lucky enough to have landed at Sam's table (with cemerick) for dinner; he's a fantastically entertaining guy, even when not presenting.
11:05	gtrak	it was pretty priceless, i think i overheard rich hickey say 'frightening' :-)
11:07	cemerick	gtrak: Rich's first comment to Sam after his talk was "You're badass!".
11:07	gtrak	awesome
11:07	cemerick	Which is quite true. :-)
11:07	gtrak	yea, it was much more involved than his other videos
11:08	gtrak	and music was rich's thing, right?
11:08	cemerick	I had no idea of the scope of overtone beforehand. You're right, the videos that are out there now totally do not do it justice.
11:09	gtrak	should hook up overtone to core.logic next
11:10	gtrak	that could be truly frightening
11:12	TimMc	$google clojure overtone
11:12	lazybot	[rosejn/overtone - GitHub] https://github.com/rosejn/overtone
11:13	TimMc	Ah, supercollider.
11:13	Raynes	http://github.com/overtone/overtone
11:13	gtrak	TimMc, with lambdas and macros
11:14	TimMc	$google algorithms are thoughts, chainsaws are tools
11:14	lazybot	[Algorithms are Thoughts, Chainsaws are Tools on Vimeo] http://vimeo.com/9790850
11:14	TimMc	^ anything like that?
11:14	gtrak	yea, looks similar
11:15	duck1123	using just clojure.test / midje, is there a good way to focus on a particular test?
11:16	duck1123	I know you can do it with lazytest
11:17	gtrak	TimMc, yea, it was like that, except he also used some external input and explained all the thought behind it
11:17	TimMc	nice
11:18	hhutch	gtrak: Sam Aaron was already rewriting overtone to use core.logic and core.match at the conj
11:18	hhutch	small parts of it
11:18	gtrak	hhutch, oh really?
11:18	hhutch	yeah, actually you could see it in his talk
11:18	gtrak	like generative music programs?
11:18	hhutch	no, i just mean the overtone code base itself
11:19	hhutch	he had a use for core.match
11:19	gtrak	ah
11:19	hhutch	i have a feeling i will end up over using core.match for a while because it is so handy
11:19	gtrak	i think byrd's and friedman's reverse programs and genetic algos could be pretty awesome for music
11:28	TimMc	reverse programs?
11:29	ejackson	TimMc: Like an inverse function. Using logic programming you can specify the output and the engine will give you any number of programs that generate it.
11:29	ejackson	Friedman demo'd this at the conj, it was spectucular.
11:33	jcromartie	hm, clojure.java.jdbc works fine to run a query, but the same query fails with Korma
11:38	jcromartie	hm
11:38	jcromartie	apparently whatever method Korma is using requires me to specify the full database.schema.table name
11:38	jcromartie	while clojure.java.jdbc does not
11:39	gtrak	TimMc, the generated programs were more amusing than useful at this point, but you can add constraints
11:39	duck1123	jcromartie: is this for adhoc queries /
11:40	jcromartie	no
11:40	jcromartie	duck1123: I have a defentity
11:40	jcromartie	in Korma
11:40	jcromartie	and an ad-hoc query in c.j.jdbc
11:40	jcromartie	but the query generated by Korma works fine in c.j.jdbc, just not in Korma
11:40	jcromartie	...
11:41	duck1123	and I assume the connection spec is the same in both cases?
11:43	jcromartie	yup
11:43	duck1123	I know there's the issue that korma doesn't quote the names, I hit errors when I tried to have an alias named "database"
11:43	jcromartie	I don't think that' sit.
11:43	jcromartie	the SQL Server driver is complaining that there's no such thing as <table name>
11:43	jcromartie	let me paste the example
11:45	dnolen	gtrak: TimMc: to clear, the program they showed was an interpreter embedded into miniKanren. So it could run programs, generate programs, and check programs.
11:47	jcromartie	duck1123: https://gist.github.com/a518bece0b38b23ab226
11:50	duck1123	jcromartie: I don't know much about SQL server, but is the table actually named tblEmployees
11:50	jcromartie	yes
11:52	duck1123	what happens if you change :subname to include the db-name, that's how I had to do it in mysql
11:57	jcromartie	hm
12:00	jcromartie	Korma just uses clojure.java.jdbc anyway, though
12:10	jkdufair	can anyone recommend a strategy for shuffling a list but applying a set of constraints to the shuffle? i'm trying to "pick names from a hat" for our christmas list but don't want siblings to get one another
12:11	jkdufair	here's what i have so far: http://pastebin.com/z9j49kvi
12:11	joegallo	generate a seq of calls to shuffle, and then filter out shufflings where the constraints don't apply
12:11	joegallo	get the first result that wasn't removed
12:12	jkdufair	yeah i thought of that. kind of brute force but for such a quick util that would work. thx!
12:12	joegallo	yeah, computers are fast, you'll be fine ;)
12:13	joegallo	consider (zip-map (shuffle kids) kids) for that
12:14	jkdufair	yes indeed
12:28	Raynes	jkdufair: To pair the kids, you're pulling them out two at a time?
12:28	jkdufair	MayDaniel: yes
12:28	jkdufair	Hehe. sorry
12:29	Raynes	Just curious. I'm playing around with it.
12:29	jkdufair	thanks. brute force not working super well
12:33	michael_campbell	jkdufair: Not trying to suggest anything different here, but your latest pastebin reminds me very much of the toy example of Cascalog that was presented at conj. I doubt you'll need to do something like this with petabytes of Kid's, however... ;-)
12:34	jkdufair	michael_campbell: yeah, we'd have a whole different problem to solve if we had petabytes of kids. though sometimes it feels like we do
12:34	michael_campbell	hah, I bet. Still, the abstractions in the cascalog interface might give you some ideas.
12:34	ejackson	but, to take michael_campbell's statement one further, you could try logic programming :)
12:35	jkdufair	yeah, it seems to boil down to a CSP. i'll take a look at cascalog
12:35	michael_campbell	and... what ejackson said, too. My brain is too small for that just now. (or maybe, just wired incorrectly due to years of thinking wrong!)
12:36	ejackson	cascalog requires, I think, that you install all of hadoop, which is overkill
12:36	jkdufair	hehe. though i've been looking for an excuse to learn hadoop.
12:36	ejackson	i think core.logic can solve this for you
12:36	michael_campbell	Dunno; the examples at the conj were against normal flat files I thought?
12:37	ejackson	yes, but remember all the processing, i think that was dispatching jobs to a local hadoop.
12:37	michael_campbell	I was actually considering looking at it as a db layer against RDBMS' ... but then I think I want to play around with Korma, too
12:37	michael_campbell	ejackson: that could be; I think you're right, in fact.
12:38	michael_campbell	now that you say it, it looks like this is a good sized entry project for some core.logic spelunking.
12:39	jcromartie	hooray
12:39	jcromartie	Korma is working for me now, BTW... duck1123
12:39	ejackson	beware of the Mad Hatter :)
12:39	jcromartie	duck1123: I followed your subname advice
12:40	duck1123	jcromartie: good to hear
12:40	jcromartie	now to get into Korma proper
12:42	fliebel	I'm probably looking at a spelling mistake here... any ideas? http://pastebin.com/gbTWDKsM
12:43	fliebel	duck1123: How is OStatus doing?
12:43	duck1123	fliebel: I absolutely hate the Salmon protocol
12:44	Raynes	technomancy: ping
12:46	fliebel	duck1123: Yea, I've heard that before. They do some weird custom security encryption bit twidling, right?
12:47	duck1123	fliebel: yeah. I'm still trying to figure out how best to apply it. Once I do that, I should be able to send subscription notices to status.net servers pretty easily
12:49	jcromartie	fliebel: did you get it?
12:49	fliebel	duck1123: How monolithic is your implementation? In other words, can I reuse some components?
12:49	fliebel	jcromartie: ?
12:49	jcromartie	fliebel: the :refer-clojure problem
12:50	fliebel	jcromartie: no :( It looks alright to me, but it does not work.
12:50	jcromartie	after quitting and restarting the REPL?
12:51	duck1123	fliebel: the salmon part is still pretty deeply integrated. I've been trying to think of the best way to extract it, but it's tied to my notion of an activity atm
12:51	fliebel	jcromartie: yea, cake kill & cake repl, (use...
12:51	fliebel	duck1123: What do you think about activitystreams in json?
12:53	duck1123	fliebel: I have serialization as json working, but I am not yet parsing json activity streams
12:54	fliebel	duck1123: I should have a closer look at your impl, before reinventing the wheel. TBH, I'm a bit afraid of your VC framework, for no apparent reason.
12:55	fliebel	*mvc
12:56	duck1123	lol, it's a bit intimidating. I just pushed out a dev branch that has my un-cleaned up work from this weekend
12:58	fliebel	solution for the refer problem: do not overwrite core fns
13:03	TimMc	fliebel: The problem is a (defn assoc-in ...) in the same file as that snippet?
13:03	technomancy	Raynes: what's up?
13:03	fliebel	TimMc: yes.
13:04	jcromartie	loving the Korma so far... pretty early on though
13:04	TimMc	OK, should be easy for me to test locally then.
13:05	Raynes	technomancy: I was curious about your policy on giving people write access to the Leiningen repo. If it isn't inappropriate it, I'd like some of that so I can throw up branches of my cake -> leiningen and template work.
13:06	Raynes	If any of that made sense, please congratulate me.
13:06	technomancy	Raynes: once you get one accepted pull request you can have commit access, but potentially destabilizing stuff needs to be done on branches, naturally.
13:06	Raynes	Of course.
13:07	technomancy	the model that I've used so far with brand new tasks has been to get them polished in 3rd-party plugins and then merging them once they've been tested out and had a good community thumbs-up.
13:07	TimMc	fliebel: It is working for me...
13:08	TimMc	copy/pasted
13:08	fliebel	TimMc: Weird... Thanks.
13:09	Raynes	technomancy: Gotcha.
13:09	TimMc	Clearly, the problem is... "Nullified Parameter Destabilisation"
13:09	technomancy	Raynes: what did you have in mind specifically besides spawn?
13:10	Raynes	technomancy: Well, I don't really know yet.
13:10	technomancy	also, have you seen https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/VersionTwo ? I expanded it a fair bit on my flight yesterday
13:10	fliebel	TimMc: Uh? So should I flip the input of the bloom array smoke screens?
13:11	TimMc	No! That will destabilize the redundant fitler drive.
13:11	TimMc	*filter
13:11	TimMc	and then you'll have two problems
13:11	fliebel	technomancy: I read a tweet or two about a cake + lein effort, what's what all about?
13:12	TimMc	Seriously though, your computer is insane.
13:12	technomancy	Raynes: the first point on "Open Questions" is the main thing that came up with the discussions with ninjudd. I want to see if we can state the problem precisely to help reason about the complexity vs benefit.
13:12	technomancy	if it's just additional defproject entries (which may affect classpath) then it's conceptually pretty simple.
13:12	Raynes	fliebel: I don't think there has been a formal announcement, but we've all decided (cake team + leiningen) that we'd like to work together on Leiningen rather than maintain cake and do the not-really-competing thing from now on.
13:13	fliebel	Raynes: Ok, so Leiningen it is. Maybe that also solves my refer-clojure problem :)
13:13	technomancy	fliebel: http://devinewines.ca/eventAuctions/auctionImages/powers_combined.jpg
13:14	Raynes	technomancy: Yeah, I'm purposely avoiding the whole contexts discussion while silently listening in from the back. I still don't really understand the whole concept.
13:14	wastrel	so hi folks
13:14	Raynes	Or maybe I just don't understand why it is so important.
13:15	technomancy	oh, this one's not bad either: http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/9/8/128969149726151424.jpg
13:15	wastrel	semi offtopic but when i first started reading about lisp i saw a deconstruction of hello world programs from other languages, how even though they're very simple they're all quite buggy and inconsistent with the syntax/rules of the language
13:15	fliebel	technomancy: I have photoshop...
13:15	wastrel	any idea where i can find that again?
13:16	technomancy	fliebel: there are surprisingly few good captain planet image macros readily searchable
13:16	wastrel	captain planet is/was godawful
13:17	gtrak	we're the planeteers, you can be one too, cuz saving our planet is the thing to do
13:17	technomancy	fliebel: basically a bunch of kids summon an environmental superhero with their magic rings; the catchprase was "by our powers combined..."
13:17	technomancy	also he had a mullet
13:17	gtrak	he was a lot like macgyver
13:18	fliebel	"Leiningen and the Cake" or "The ants are a lie"
13:19	technomancy	wow, Jeff Goldblum briefly voiced a Captain Planet villain‽
13:21	cemerick	technomancy: Your meme prowess astonishes. :-)
13:21	technomancy	I been practicin'.
13:22	cemerick	The first thing I saw upon walking into the hotel bar on Wednesday night was pimp my ride on all screens, which was hilarious.
13:23	jcromartie	is "doc" gone from Clojure 1.3
13:23	gtrak	i always thought acid rain was pretty cool
13:23	raek	jcromartie: no, it moved to clojure.repl/doc
13:23	jcromartie	ah
13:23	jcromartie	that's kind of noob-hostile, isn't it?
13:23	cemerick	jcromartie: nearly all REPLs (including Clojure's command-line one) use it in all namespaces implicitly.
13:24	cemerick	so, it should be available as before
13:24	michael_campbell	I just tried it in a repl; worked for me
13:24	jcromartie	hm
13:24	jcromartie	well after I (in-ns 'foo) in lein repl
13:24	jcromartie	I don't have it
13:24	michael_campbell	mind you, at this stage in my clojurification, I LIVE in "doc".
13:24	jcromartie	but maybe that's not the right way to do it?
13:25	jcromartie	when I'm developing I typically do: (require 'my-ns.core :reload) (in-ns 'my-ns.core)
13:25	jcromartie	for convenience
13:25	cemerick	jcromartie: in-ns only moves you into a namespace. ns is what defines one and performs all the initial refers into said namespace (including stuff from clojure.core and clojure.repl)
13:26	jcromartie	so, what's a better way to do it
13:26	jcromartie	(ns dev (:use my-ns.core :reload))
13:26	technomancy	cemerick: oh wow, you mean clojure.repl comes along for the ride with refer-clojure if it detects you're in a repl?
13:26	cemerick	technomancy: provided by clojure.main/repl, IIRC
13:27	jcromartie	hm
13:27	jcromartie	(ns ...) doesn't include clojure.repl :)
13:27	cemerick	jcromartie: do you have doc available immediately upon starting your repl?
13:27	jcromartie	when I'm in lein repl
13:27	jcromartie	let's find out
13:27	jcromartie	yeah
13:28	cemerick	oh, I see what's happening
13:29	cemerick	hrm, maybe not
13:29	jcromartie	I'm using Clojure 1.3.0 if it makes a difference
13:30	technomancy	yeah, I don't think new nses get it
13:31	eftate	how much memory does a sequence use per element
13:32	cemerick	ah, I get the repl/pprint/etc refers automatically in every namespace because nREPL uses a new clojure.main/repl invocation for each expression.
13:32	cemerick	Not sure if that's a good thing or not. :-/
13:33	eftate	might be a bad idea for me to read a file through a sequence of tokens
13:33	cemerick	eftate: however much memory each element requires
13:34	eftate	by my calculation sequence adds 40 bytes per element
13:34	eftate	or 32 if it's not lazy one
13:34	eftate	but since a lot of core functions return lazy ones...
13:38	eftate	so a sequence of strings is 40 for sequence element + 24 for string element + string length * 2 provided no japanese or something characters are used
13:40	eftate	or on 64 bit system sequence element takes up 80 bytes + 44 for string element + string length * 2
13:40	eftate	hm... better stick with java char arrays
13:50	jkdufair	thanks for the help with the xmas gfit algorithm folks. my simple solution: http://pastebin.com/Ls4aqz95
13:52	tsdh	Hi technomancy
13:52	tsdh	Is it possible to run leiningen with clojure 1.3?
13:53	amalloy	jkdufair: you can simplify is-sibling? and related functions a fair bit
13:53	technomancy	tsdh: Leiningen 2.0 will use Clojure 1.3. If you want to execute code requiring 1.3 in Leiningen 1.x you can use eval-in-project with a dummy project
13:54	amalloy	(defn siblings? [& kids] (apply = (map :family-name) kids)), for example
13:54	tsdh	technomancy: Thanks, I'll look it up.
13:54	technomancy	tsdh: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/PLUGINS.md <- see the "Clojure Version" heading
13:54	amalloy	er, misbalanced parens there but i hope you get the idea
13:55	tsdh	technomancy: That's exactly my use case. :-)
13:56	technomancy	tsdh: for clojurescript?
13:56	jkdufair	amalloy: do tell
13:56	jkdufair	oh thx!
13:56	amalloy	anyway, you can pull that testing logic up a bit as well: (defn attr-tester [attr] (fn [& kids] (apply = (map attr kids)))), (def is-sibling? (attr-tester :family-name))
13:56	cemerick	technomancy: are different authentication bits in e.g. ~/.lein/init.clj considered "config files"?
13:57	cemerick	in VersionTwo, that is, sorry
13:57	jkdufair	cool. thk you
13:57	tsdh	technomancy: I've written a simple documentation generator that doesn't parse the sources but loads them and then generates the docs from the metadata. That means, that this leiningen plugin has to run with the project's :dependencies.
13:57	technomancy	cemerick: I was thinking specifically of properties and .clj that's read off the classpath, but user-settings would probably be another thing to add
13:58	jkdufair	amalloy: what does the & in the fxn arg mean?
13:58	cemerick	technomancy: that's actually my #1 usage of profiles in maven-land.
13:58	tsdh	jkdufair: It's a varargs function.
13:58	jkdufair	oh ok
13:58	technomancy	tsdh: in that case you should probably use eval-in-project with the actual project, not a dummy project. =)
13:58	technomancy	cemerick: interesting; good to know.
13:59	cemerick	+1 to generating pom.xml w/o maven itself, FWIW
13:59	tsdh	technomancy: Yep. Do I put that simply into the definition of the leiningen plugin?
13:59	technomancy	cemerick: oh, how so? for more reasons than just trimming the deps? =)
14:00	cemerick	Who wants to be the one to maintain leiningen.pom when some new bit of config should get surfaced in the XML? ;-)
14:01	technomancy	tsdh: yeah, you can see the test task for an example of running code in the project's classpath
14:02	tsdh	technomancy: Great, thanks.
14:04	TimMc	OK, I've got some Clojure code I'd like to run from Java. The .clj files are on the classpath, but I don't know how to effectively use gen-class and RT.var.invoke.
14:04	TimMc	Any good example projects I can look at?
14:05	gtrak	you shouldn't need to invoke if you're gen'ing a class, right?
14:05	gtrak	you can create an arbitrary facade
14:05	TimMc	The Clojure is included as source -- I need to call RT to find them.
14:05	TimMc	I don't have the luxury of a separate project compiling to a jar.
14:06	gtrak	uhh, so you're going to create a class dynamically and load it?
14:06	gtrak	and have java code reference a dynamically loaded class?
14:06	TimMc	Well, something like this I guess: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2181774/calling-clojure-from-java/6410926#6410926
14:07	gtrak	you still need to get clojure.jar to compile your namespaces
14:07	gtrak	but i suppose that will work
14:07	amalloy	TimMc: if the code isn't being AOT-compiled i don't believe you can use gen-class
14:08	gtrak	yea, gen-class makes no sense with that technique
14:08	TimMc	Hmm, right.
14:08	amalloy	so you more or less have to use RT.var to find whatever functions and invoke them
14:08	TimMc	So raek's example there on Stack Overflow is still appropriate?
14:08	amalloy	yes, that is what i would do
14:09	amalloy	(in what i understand your situation to be)
14:09	TimMc	And the "namespace" of com/company/ui/index.clj would be "com.company.ui.index", yeah?
14:10	TimMc	(I'm trying to use Enlive to generate HTML for this Java project.)
14:10	amalloy	nod
14:11	gtrak	does it automatically compile for you when you do it that way?
14:12	TimMc	I think so?
14:12	amalloy	gtrak: when you require it
14:12	gtrak	oh I see, there's a Compiler.load( that he calls
14:13	gtrak	not raek, but the other one
14:14	TimMc	hell yes
14:14	TimMc	Totally works.
14:14	tsdh	technomancy: Hm, now my problem is that in fact, I have to run the complete plugin in my project. However, I get the project not before the entry function is called...
14:16	technomancy	tsdh: gilardi scenario'd!
14:16	tsdh	technomancy: When wrapping the body of the entry fn in an eval-in-project, the functions called from there are not defined. Should I wrap every definition in an eval-in-project as well?
14:16	technomancy	you should read this: http://technomancy.us/143
14:17	technomancy	basically you have to require the namespaces you need in another form with the init arg
14:24	TimMc	Preferred method for setting up a new Emacs for Clojure work?
14:24	TimMc	My old el-get script is not quite working.
14:26	tsdh	technomancy: Argh. Then it doesn't find the leiningen.compile namespace. Does that mean that I have to add leiningen to the :dependencies?
14:27	technomancy	tsdh: eh, you're trying to configure an AOT compilation from inside the project?
14:28	tsdh	technomancy: No, but for my plugin to use eval-in-project I have to require/use leiningen.compile. But when the plugin runs in the project, then that's not on the classpath.
14:28	technomancy	oh, I see. yeah, you need to keep things in separate namespaces.
14:29	technomancy	the task goes in leiningen.mytask, but the code that needs to run in the project should be in a different namespace
14:29	technomancy	swank-clojure actually might be a better example here
14:29	technomancy	src/leiningen/swank.clj runs in leiningen's process, but it calls eval-in-project to run code from src/swank/swank.clj and such.
14:30	tsdh	Ok, then I'll check that out.
14:37	amalloy	chouser: i seem to be listed as the project lead for DXML on jira. would you like to hold that lofty position instead?
14:40	tsdh	technomancy: Yay, that does the trick!
14:41	TimMc	argggh "Symbol's function definition is void: paredit-mode"
14:42	technomancy	tsdh: if you have suggestions on how the documentation could be clearer I'm interested
14:46	TimMc	Setting up Emacs is the most frustrating thing ever.
14:46	yazirian	It isn't so much an installation as a lifestyle choice.
14:46	TimMc	It isn't so much an installation as oh god what does anything mean.
14:47	TimMc	Or, why doesn't anything work in this otherwise identical setup.
14:47	TimMc	Is el-get a bad idea? That's what I'm trying to use to get paredit-mode.
14:47	cemerick	yazirian: that's cute
14:47	technomancy	I have no idea what the point of el-get is
14:47	yazirian	:)
14:48	tsdh	technomancy: Hm, I think that the case where only one form has to be evaluated in some other context is quite rare. So I'd use another example in the plugin docs, where the "real" plugin code is in leiningen.myplugin.core and the "real" plugin function leiningen.myplugin/myplugin simply evals (and requires) that in some other context.
14:48	cemerick	"emacs is a lifestyle choice" is apparently a common phrase/notion, though I hadn't noticed it before
14:48	yazirian	I've only ever either used package-install, or done it by hand.
14:49	TimMc	The guy who set me up with a .emacs on my laptop used el-get.
14:50	yazirian	This reminds me of a thing. A couple of weeks ago I got this wild idea to use SLIME from CVS. Imagine my surprise when the repl buffer stopped working.
14:50	TimMc	Is it worth upgrading to Emacs 24 (from 23) or is that going to be another rat pit?
14:50	technomancy	tsdh: yeah, in most cases it makes sense to keep the plugin as thin as possible and have all the code in something that's totally decoupled from lein
14:50	technomancy	I've found 24 to be more stable than 23
14:53	mefesto	emacs24 available on ubuntu? i glanced through the software center but didn't see it
14:53	TimMc	Oog, dependency hell.
14:54	technomancy	mefesto: http://emacs.naquadah.org/ is the only source I know of for .debs
14:54	mefesto	technomancy: thanks
14:54	TimMc	Not gonna work on Linux Mint (not my idea).
14:55	technomancy	it's not bad to build from source as long as you get it from a git mirror rather than bzr
14:56	TimMc	That might not help with the dependencies.
14:56	TimMc	I don't want to install only to find out a week later that it really needs that version of ImageMagick, etc.
14:56	technomancy	yeah, you have to do a build-dep first, but build-dep of emacs23 gets you what you need to build 24
14:56	technomancy	no idea how to do that without apt though
14:57	TimMc	Automatic package management is only nice if you live on the cutting edge.
14:57	technomancy	huh?
14:57	TimMc	Well, if something keeps you from being at the latest release of a distro, everything goes to hell.
14:58	TimMc	Ubuntu is terrible about making backports, and my understanding is that's not unusual.
14:58	technomancy	oh, for system libraries; I see
14:59	TimMc	...and I'm on some godawful Ubuntu derivative called "Mint" which is even further removed from the latest repos.
14:59	amalloy	TimMc: i ran 24 for a week or two and had serious problems with window/frame management so i went back to 23. i understand most people don't have this issue though
15:00	yazirian	trying 24 now... it did some weird thing where it sent the initial frame to a different desktop
15:00	yazirian	but nyan-mode works, so i think we can be friends
15:01	technomancy	I'm telling you, lexical scope changes everything.
15:01	TimMc	So... `git clone https://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit.git .emacs.d` ?
15:02	yazirian	whoa... 24 has lexical? if i had known i would've been on it the day after they merged that
15:02	technomancy	TimMc: it's changed a bit with version 2; see the readme
15:02	TimMc	technomancy: Can't use v2, I'm on 23.
15:03	technomancy	TimMc: right; you will need to switch to the master branch then; the v2 branch is default now
15:03	TimMc	aha, I see the problem
15:04	TimMc	bam
15:05	scottj	does lein's :shell-wrapper actually work?
15:05	technomancy	scottj: it's certainly lightly-tested
15:06	technomancy	and it doesn't work on Java 1.5
15:06	scottj	technomancy: is it created on lein jar or lein uberjar, and it appears in ~/.lein/bin?
15:07	technomancy	the jar task just puts it in the jar; only the 2-argument version of lein install places it in ~/.lein/bin
15:07	TimMc	WHat is the emacs-starter-kit way of getting Clojure mode, paredit, paren coloring, etc.?
15:07	technomancy	scottj: probably an oversight if the in-project version of lein install doesn't do it
15:07	scottj	technomancy: what command actually creates the shell script?
15:08	technomancy	scottj: "lein install swank-clojure 1.3.3" should do it
15:08	technomancy	oh, maybe lein plugin install too
15:12	TimMc	I see, package.el
15:15	gtrak	is dynamic binding gone now?
15:15	technomancy	gtrak: in elisp? it's still default; you have to opt-in to lexical scope since otherwise you'd break tons of stuff.
15:15	gtrak	TimMc, I got fed up with ubuntu for a few years, and now I love Arch, I use ubuntu for VMs though
15:16	dnolen	gtrak: no, you just need to declare which things will be dynamic with ^:dynamic
15:16	gtrak	ah, dnolen i meant in emacs, sorry :-)
15:18	scottj	is there a command to pr-str maps, vectors, keywords etc with their meta data in a way that works with read-string?
15:18	scottj	(or maybe it's not pr-str that I want)
15:20	technomancy	scottj: pr-str with print-metadata bound, I think
15:20	gtrak	print-dup?
15:23	amalloy	print-meta
15:23	technomancy	that's the one
15:23	amalloy	&(binding [print-meta true] (pr-str (with-meta [] {:foo 1})))
15:23	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! pop-thread-bindings is bad!
15:24	amalloy	,(binding [print-meta true] (pr-str (with-meta [] {:foo 1})))
15:24	clojurebot	"^{:foo 1} []"
15:24	amalloy	Raynes: wait, does lazybot not allow any bindings at all now? if so that sounds like a mistake
15:24	scottj	cool thanks!
15:24	Raynes	amalloy: He hasn't allowed for bindings since like 10 months ago.
15:25	Raynes	Not that I exactly know why. I'm sure I had a reason.
15:25	amalloy	i guess maybe because binding is a macro expanding to push/pop of threadbindings, and you can't allow people to push without popping?
15:26	Raynes	Seems like pop was a problem.
15:26	amalloy	either direction would be
15:26	mefesto	upgrade to emacs24 went surprisingly smooth :)
15:27	Iceland_jack	mefesto: :)
15:28	brehaut	apparently i am connected to the internet via a yoyo today
15:29	gtrak	if pushed or popped, individually, that sounds bad, but if both, why not? any weirdness would be caught by other guards
15:30	Raynes	gtrak: Well, binding is a macro that expands to those things. clojail macroexpands all code. If we want to allow for bindings, we have to allow for the things that it expands to, thus allowing for those things individually.
15:33	gtrak	does binding have to be a macro?
15:34	gtrak	or rather, maybe you can check if they appear in non-macro-expanded form, if they're used within a binding it should be safe
15:35	gtrak	actually, the more i think about it, the worse it seems :-)
15:36	gtrak	how about resetting the bindings for each executed form? too slow?
15:36	gtrak	or only if one of those were called
15:39	mefesto	gtrak: would with-bindings* work?
15:39	gtrak	same problem, right?
15:39	mefesto	,(doc with-bindings*)
15:39	clojurebot	"([binding-map f & args]); Takes a map of Var/value pairs. Installs for the given Vars the associated values as thread-local bindings. Then calls f with the supplied arguments. Pops the installed bindings after f returned. Returns whatever f returns."
15:39	mefesto	it's a function
15:40	gtrak	the issue is it's hard to check if the user did the right thing, since we're not doing any static analysis
15:40	amalloy	gtrak: resetting each time isn't really possible because you can only really do it using push/pop thread bindings, which the user can break
15:40	gtrak	amalloy, directly to java?
15:40	gtrak	looking at it right now: static final ThreadLocal<Frame> dvals = new ThreadLocal<Frame>(){
15:41	gtrak	the user can break the clojure vars that have the macros :-), but resetting them through java would have the same effect, no?
15:42	gtrak	and since it's thread-local, it shouldn't affect anyone else
15:43	gtrak	ha, what if he runs another thread and does it there? :-)
15:43	gtrak	say, in an agent
15:48	amalloy	gtrak: threads are pooled anyway, so thread-localness isn't really relevant
15:48	amalloy	someone else will wind up wanting to reuse the future he's broken
15:49	gtrak	yea exactly
15:49	gtrak	ah, didn't know futures were pooled
15:49	gtrak	but same issue there
15:55	cemerick	Interesting that rest is called more in ISeq.
16:02	amalloy	cemerick: a lot of weirdness in general, on the java side
16:07	dnolen	cemerick: yeah I always found that a bit odd, fixed in CLJS
16:15	TimMc	Why do the .java files in clojure.lang have no Javadocs?
16:15	Raynes	It was just officially announced that Leiningen and Cake are joining forces: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure-cake/GG7DbCQmmW4/Uh7IdWNFmdwJ
16:15	TimMc	Makes interop hard from the Java side.
16:17	cemerick	Raynes, ninjudd, amalloy, lancepantz, et al.: seems like a win-win for everyone. Thank you. :-)
16:17	dnolen	exciting stuff
16:18	gtrak	awesome
16:18	joly	great news
16:19	cemerick	how often do "competing" open source projects "merge"? Must be a first. :-P
16:19	licenser	Raynes: awesome!
16:20	amalloy	cemerick: didn't rails soak up some competing project? i'm not much of a rubyist but i heard ninjudd mention something like that at dinner
16:20	pnicholson	cemerick: rails + merb
16:20	cemerick	amalloy: 'tis true. OK, a second instance of the phenomenon.
16:20	cemerick	:-P
16:20	fliebel	Will Lein 2 have anything to do with nREPL?
16:21	cemerick	fliebel: a lein-nrepl plugin will be appearing shortly, and ninjudd and I have been in early talks to make sure nREPL has whatever they need to make the transition for cake users as smooth as possible.
16:22	tomoj	does that mean lein gets ruby?
16:22	cemerick	I can't imagine.
16:22	Raynes	tomoj: It isn't a 'merge'.
16:22	Raynes	I hope people don't start throwing that word around.
16:23	cemerick	Raynes: sorry, I think I'm the one that threw that around.
16:23	tomoj	wonder if this is why clojure-cake.org is down
16:23	Raynes	It is "we, the cake team, are becoming a part of Leiningen. As such, we will contribute our cake features and code that make sense to Leiningen and work with the Leiningen team to make it better".
16:23	cemerick	(in quotes for a reason, FWIW)
16:24	gtrak	a people not code-merge
16:24	michael_campbell	cemerick: Struts2 also subsumed WebWork in the java UI framework world.
16:24	cemerick	michael_campbell: people still use struts, or any derivation thereof? :-O
16:24	fliebel	Pyramid did something aweful to Pylons and... whatever
16:24	amalloy	tomoj: hah no, i think that's an accident. ninjudd, any idea? i can't believe the dns record just happened to expire right now
16:25	Raynes	cemerick: No worries, just don't want it to be taken too literally. :p
16:25	moogatronic	cemerick: god help them, but yes. in fact, I consult on a struts 1 project even.
16:25	michael_campbell	cemerick: Tis true. My company does. Hence my casual throwing around of describing my day to day existence as "soul crushing" at the conj.
16:25	cemerick	Seriously.
16:25	moogatronic	the code even goes into CVS. =)
16:25	cemerick	Raynes: I'll from now on refer to it as The Goodness™.
16:25	michael_campbell	<- svn here.
16:25	Raynes	amalloy: No, it has been down for days. I told ninjudd at the conj, and he replied letting me know of his decision to work with Leiningen./
16:26	Raynes	So maybe it is related. ;)
16:26	michael_campbell	This combining of efforts seems only but good, no?
16:26	moogatronic	i tried for SVN, but then I was tasksed with producing proof on why SVN was better in the form of a giant manual.
16:26	moogatronic	LMGTFY wasn't sufficient
16:26	michael_campbell	moogatronic: "atomic commits" usually gets some attention.
16:26	moogatronic	yeah, i tried that.
16:26	moogatronic	=)
16:27	michael_campbell	moogatronic: except for PHB's, who think "atomic" means "nuke it from orbit", which, while cool, isn't what you're going after (or, maybe you are)
16:27	moogatronic	the problem was the dinosaur chair-warming programmers who still wanted to go back to RCS
16:27	moogatronic	even though they mostly watch youtube videos all day instead of do any work.
16:27	michael_campbell	oh god.
16:28	michael_campbell	SCCS...
16:28	michael_campbell	DVCS... <shudder>
16:28	michael_campbell	err, PVCS, rather
16:28	joly	I got to interact with RCS, SCCS, and PVCS through recursive makefiles. I was glad to see the end of that "fun"
16:29	moogatronic	needless to say, git was out of the question as an upgrade option. =)
16:29	seancorfield	back
16:29	moogatronic	thankfully that isn't my full time thing. when it was though, 'soul crushing' was the exact adjective I used when talking to others about my job.
16:30	michael_campbell	that's because it is.
16:30	chouser	I'm going to apologize in advance, because but I'm going to go ahead and pretend this is #emacs
16:30	michael_campbell	I was, nay, AM ready to jump ship to a clojure shop, today. But I don't feel I know enough yet to be useful; like Groucho Marx said, I don't want to join any club that would have me as a member.... yet.
16:31	chouser	what's the appropriate way to dismiss a buffer such as Help that has popped up in front of what I want?
16:31	moogatronic	I kill it.
16:31	cemerick	Just click on the…oh, nevermind.
16:31	michael_campbell	C-x k
16:31	chouser	C-x k Help seems brutal and clumsy
16:31	chouser	oh
16:31	chouser	ok
16:32	gtrak	the thing I'm most excited about after conj is the prospect of a rules-engine for a type-system or whatever, that sounds freaking awesome
16:32	chouser	brutal and clumsy it is, then. :-)
16:32	brehaut	chouser: 'brutal and clumsy' is the emacs way isnt it?
16:32	michael_campbell	If it's the current buffer, just return.
16:32	jcromartie	hm, I'm not sure I can count on Korma to deliver performance when the joins are done lazily in a 1 + N subqueries fashion
16:32	michael_campbell	Or C-x b to switch to another buffer.
16:32	jcromartie	if I just want a little bit of extra info on 1K things, that's 1K queries
16:32	chouser	ok, thanks.
16:32	michael_campbell	and just let Help sit in the back.
16:32	moogatronic	chouser: on my mac cmd-k kills it.
16:32	moogatronic	i just think of it as 'close'
16:32	moogatronic	=)
16:32	michael_campbell	Or... M-x bury-buffer to make it go WAY back.
16:32	amalloy	chouser: usually it also pops up a recommendation in the minibuffer like C-x 1 or C-x 4 C-o RET
16:32	TimMc	chouser: Your window has divided into two buffers, yes?
16:33	jcromartie	jcromartie: it would be better if the db lib would do the join and "roll up" the records on the PK
16:33	jcromartie	instead of a subquery
16:33	TimMc	chouser: Expand the current buffer using C-x 1 or the other using C-x 0.
16:33	michael_campbell	jcromartie: I havent played w/Korma yet but can you not specify the entire query? (including joins)?
16:34	chouser	I had two windows open and Help replaced one of them. Killing it is just 3 keystrokes. If that's the right thing, I'm all set.
16:34	gtrak	dnolen, this a-la-carte type system idea is an awesome one
16:34	jcromartie	michael_campbell: if you specify joins along relations, for instance, (select vendors (with accounts) ...) Korma will issue a separate account query for each vendor
16:35	jcromartie	it's the classic 1+N query problem
16:35	jcromartie	n + 1 selects
16:35	amalloy	chouser: that's a reasonable thing to do. emacs recommends C-x 4 C-o RET
16:36	amalloy	but just killing help isn't crazy, since that command is absurdly long
16:36	brehaut	jcromartie: have you looked at join as well as with ?
16:36	jcromartie	no
16:36	jcromartie	it's not mentioned in the docs
16:36	chouser	I guess I was hoping for something that would hide or kill the most recently opened buffer.
16:36	brehaut	jcromartie: http://sqlkorma.com/api/0.2.0/korma.core-api.html#korma.core/join
16:36	jcromartie	hm
16:36	amalloy	chouser: C-x 4 C-o RET is it, sadly. you can bind that function to a less stupid sequence
16:37	jcromartie	yeah at this point I may as well look back to ClojureQL
16:37	michael_campbell	chouser: C-x k <return> should kill whatever's in front of you. (Mind you, with the starter-kit, I don't know what black magic ido-mode is doing)
16:37	dnolen	gtrak: yes, tho rhickey took that idea a bit further in his talk.
16:38	brehaut	syntax hilighting question: do people prefer the symbols for marcos, special forms and functions to be highlight differently or the all the same?
16:38	michael_campbell	chouser: if you have multiple panes, C-x k <return> should kill whatever buffer in which the cursor is currently active.
16:38	gtrak	dnolen, yea, is there any groups thread for the static analysis idea or is it too fresh?
16:39	michael_campbell	brehaut: Good catch; I can't imagine Chris would have left out something as basic as joins. =)
16:39	gtrak	he doesn't seem like one to propose something that won't get done
16:40	cemerick	brehaut: you can't tell between the two statically, so symbols in fn position should be colored uniformly IMO.
16:40	cemerick	e.g. a macro whitelist is really just a "clojure.core whitelist"
16:40	cemerick	s/e.g./i.e.
16:40	brehaut	cemerick: thats what im leaning towards too; the idea of writing an inferencer in javascript is not appealing ;)
16:40	chouser	cemerick: I aussme you mean "if you can't tell ... statically" ;-)
16:41	chouser	assume. sigh
16:41	brehaut	cemerick: and having the highlighter guess incorrectly (or omiting things) could be quite annoying
16:41	cemerick	chouser: he's in javascript for the syntaxhighlighter brush, so…he can't. ;-)
16:41	dnolen	gtrak: most of those ideas were things he wasn't planning on taking on himself.
16:41	cemerick	brehaut: yeah, don't even try. Ow. :-)
16:42	gtrak	dnolen, yea it's a lot of work, I'm just interested in it and I want to know more :-)
16:42	brehaut	cemerick: lol :)
16:42	dnolen	gtrak: not much prior discussion that I know of, but Will Byrd also seem pretty interested in the ideas as well.
16:42	dnolen	gtrak: cool!
16:42	brehaut	cemerick: the repo now has a scruffy demo page in it btw
16:42	cemerick	nice
16:43	jcromartie	LauJensen: ping?
16:44	cemerick	once the cljs compiler is on par with Clojure's, then maybe two or three bootstrap phases will get a Clojure compiler in cljs and therefore js...
16:44	cemerick	and we can have some serious highlighting for the syntaxhighlighter brush
16:44	dnolen	gtrak: definitely should get the conversation started. I think it's a good idea to try and tackle the problem in ClojureScript first, where there considerably less complexity.
16:44	brehaut	cemerick: that would be fantastic :)
16:45	chouser	heh
16:45	chouser	I'm learning emacs. That's about all I can imagine accomplishing for the next 6 months or so.
16:45	cemerick	brehaut: your brush would be big, even if that worked.
16:45	jcromartie	chouser: give yourself a little more credit
16:46	seancorfield	someone at the conj said the first ten years were the hardest, then emacs gets easier...
16:46	brehaut	cemerick: i think its already the largest brush for the syntax highlighter :P
16:46	cemerick	jcromartie: chouser should give emacs more credit; it'll fight for longer than 6 months to yield up its jewels.
16:47	jcromartie	hah
16:47	raek	what convention does db-specs follow in Korma? the same as clojure.java.jdbc uses?
16:47	jcromartie	raek: yes
16:47	chouser	Ok, C-M-x works to eval a form, but the results show up in a line at the bottom of the screen
16:47	jcromartie	raek: clojure.java.jdbc (neé clojure.contrib.sql) is the standard for SQL connections and execution
16:47	chouser	is there some way to send them to the repl buffer instead?
16:47	jcromartie	like Ring for SQL :P
16:48	gtrak	dnolen, yea, I'll take a look, I had a compilers class a couple years back, but it seems like the rules are different in lisp
16:48	chouser	slime-repl clojure, specifically? Hopefully with both the expression and its results showing up?
16:48	raek	jcromartie: terrific. I'm currently checking out how smoothly sqlite works with Korma...
16:49	moogatronic	chouser: C-c C-e at the end of a s-exp?
16:50	amalloy	chouser: i don't think so. usually you send stuff "silently"
16:50	chouser	moogatronic: that prompts for a expression, the results of which still end up as a single line at the bottom of the screen.
16:50	moogatronic	yeah, nevermind. =) i thoguht i saw it down there before, but i must have hallucinated
16:50	chouser	amalloy: :-(
16:51	moogatronic	select, C-x o, paste, enter
16:51	moogatronic	=)
16:51	jcromartie	raek: I've spent the day in Korma, and I have to say... I'm going back to ClojureQL for now
16:51	michael_campbell	chouser, I've been "learning emacs" for 20+ years now.
16:51	dnolen	gtrak: I could be wrong but I think we can plug into the analyzer phase and store facts about forms as they are encountered.
16:51	gtrak	dnolen, actually before he said anything, I was already thinking of trying to build a language AST in RDF... we have an RDF rules-engine at work, built in clojure, though I've a lot to learn
16:52	amalloy	chouser: fwiw moogatronic meant C-x C-e, but that isn't what you want either
16:52	chouser	dnolen: either that or run the analyzer and consume its output entirely independantly of the normal compiler
16:53	moogatronic	amalloy: yes, thanks. =)
16:53	gtrak	dnolen, yes, so first you have to describe what constitutes a fact, then build rules that infer other facts
16:53	chouser	ok, so the slime usage pattern seems a bit different from inferior-lisp
16:53	chouser	like you're expected to perhaps load a whole file, but then switch to the slime buffer to actually try things interactively.
16:54	raek	jcromartie: what did you not like about it?
16:54	amalloy	chouser: i do a lot of interactivity from the source buffer - it's not really necessary for the stuff to show up in the repl
16:54	raek	I head something about table and column names not being quoted (and also read that there is no standard way of doing that)
16:54	chouser	amalloy: so you go along with no handy record fo what you've been trying?
16:55	jcromartie	raek: I think there's a mismatch between how "nice" the interface attempts to be, and how nice the returned results and working with the data actually can be
16:56	amalloy	chouser: rather, i get a repl buffer that's not cluttered with pastes of multiple versions of my pending function, so it has more room for the output of the function, i guess?
16:56	jcromartie	raek: for instance, relations seem to only be one-deep and they are retrieved in an "n+1 selects" fashion... and as someone mentioned there's a "join" function, but at that point you're just back to flat rows
16:56	jcromartie	flat tables
16:57	jcromartie	and you have to specify things explicitly again, instead of using the has-one has-many
16:57	jcromartie	there's also no has-many-through, that I can see
16:57	raek	oh.
16:57	chouser	amalloy: I'm not seeing the output of the function in any buffer either, just temporarily in some kind of status line at the bottom.
16:57	jcromartie	so complex stuff kind of falls apart for me
16:57	brehaut	jcromartie: there are some currently unresolved issues with with relations; they always have to be related to the original entity (ie, from the select) and aggregates cause them some trouble
16:57	amalloy	chouser: i switch to the repl buffer to call the function
16:58	chouser	ah, right, ok.
16:58	raek	is there a good comparison of the db libs somewhere?
16:58	chouser	so next is: how do you fetch a previous repl expression so you can change it and try again?
16:59	brehaut	chouser: M-p
16:59	scottj	or scroll up to it (or isearch) and press enter on it
16:59	chouser	brehaut: perfect, thanks.
16:59	michael_campbell	M-n does next, also.
16:59	raek	ah, the Mostly Lazy podcast mentions some...
16:59	seancorfield	ctl-up works for me
17:00	zerokarmaleft	chouser: http://bc.tech.coop/blog/070424.html <= i haven't tried this, but it does exactly what you're wanting
17:01	zerokarmaleft	for demo purposes, so his audience has a better idea of what's explicitly getting sent to the repl
17:02	dnolen	chouser: yes being able to run the analyzer w/o the compiler would be ideal.
17:03	moogatronic	zerokarmaleft: nice. i wanted that too. =)
17:05	technomancy	chouser: usually help buffers like that can be dismissed with q
17:07	mjwhitt	oh no chouser is learning emacs, my "chouser uses vim" excuse is faltering
17:09	mjwhitt	I guess I could always try evil, but that's just seems wrong
17:09	cemerick	mjwhitt: You can always say that vim is the 2nd most frequently used Clojure editor… :-)
17:09	mjwhitt	good point, hehe
17:15	jcromartie	I really appreciate the fact that I can just drop in the c3p0 code from Korma and use it to create a data source for ClojureQL.
17:15	jcromartie	That's a testament to the underlying library philosophy of both :).
17:16	gtrak	jcromartie, a simple wrapper for bean properties? :-)
17:17	jcromartie	no, actually not quite
17:17	jcromartie	or is it?
17:17	jcromartie	I mean is that what clojure.java.jdbc uses
17:18	gtrak	that would be the obvious thing to do unless you have a reason otherwise
17:18	chouser	zerokarmaleft: interesting, thanks!
17:19	chouser	mjwhitt: it is a little wrong -- pretty clearly a stopgap measure, as it doesn't work properly out of the box in org-mode, slime buffer, inferior lisp buffer, etc. :-/
17:20	cemerick	jcromartie: you should open a ticket on korma, FWIW
17:21	jcromartie	yah I guess I'm torn, really
17:21	jcromartie	ClojureQL seems to be a bit stale
17:21	jcromartie	but Korma has potential
17:22	ninjudd	technomancy: you're right. it looks like 'C-x o q' always does the right thing for dismissing a help buffer
17:23	ninjudd	jcromartie: i talked to ibdknox and bendlas at the Conj about the future of clojureql now that korma is here
17:24	ninjudd	bendlas may rewrite clojureql to use the same AST as korma
17:25	ninjudd	as it is right now, clojureql is more composable than korma, but korma generates better sql and is much simpler
17:33	jcromartie	ninjudd: ah ha, an insider :)
17:34	jcromartie	ninjudd: maybe korma could be built on clojureql
17:34	jcromartie	but yes, I find clojureql's composable nature a little more suited to my rat's nest of a db
17:34	jcromartie	and as far as "better SQL" what does that mean in practice?
17:35	Raynes	I highly doubt Korma would ever come near clojureql.
17:35	ninjudd	jcromartie: i absolutely think it makes sense for clojureql and korma to use the same backend. essentially, both would be built on a lower level layer that handles the SQL generation and deals with database platform idiosyncrasies
17:36	ninjudd	but it is more likely that the korma backend would be used, i think
17:36	jcromartie	hm
17:36	Raynes	Right.
17:37	ninjudd	though clojureql has done more work on db platform support, so that could possibly be extracted
17:37	Raynes	Judging by Chris's lightning talk, Korma's backend sounds great.
17:37	ninjudd	yes. the compiler for korma is much cleaner IMO
17:38	Raynes	And it is already totally detached from Korma, right?
17:38	ninjudd	though it would need some extension to support "infinite composability"
17:38	jcromartie	yeah
17:38	jcromartie	and Korma doesn't support open-ended aggregates or modifiers
17:38	jcromartie	like, if I want to add TOP for MS SQL Server
17:38	jcromartie	I can't do that in Korma
17:39	ninjudd	Raynes: you mean https://github.com/ibdknox/Korma/blob/master/src/korma/internal/sql.clj?
17:40	ninjudd	still part of korma, but could chris could easily make it a standalone library
17:40	Raynes	Right.
17:40	jcromartie	it seems like it's small, but fairly rigid
17:40	jcromartie	not like ClojureQL doesn't suffer from that in other areas...
17:41	ninjudd	jcromartie: yes, but i still think the architecture is a better starting point for compiling to SQL
17:41	TimMc	Merge all the libs!
17:42	ninjudd	that's the theme, isn't it ;)
17:43	ninjudd	in the case of clojureql and korma, i think it makes sense for both to exist, but they should take advantage of a shared backend
17:44	TimMc	RT.var("com.company.clj.file", "fn-name") is giving me an unbound var. How do I debug that?
17:44	raek	"By our powers combined..."
17:44	TimMc	Is there a way to check what all is in that namespace?
17:44	gtrak	raek, http://mustachify.me/?src=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e2/Captain_Planet.jpg/250px-Captain_Planet.jpg
17:45	jcromartie	you win
17:45	raek	TimMc: you can call ns-publics to get a map of the (non-private) vars in a namespace
17:46	raek	TimMc: did you require the ns before trying to access the var?
17:46	TimMc	yup
17:46	TimMc	And that succeeds.
17:46	TimMc	The fn is called "write", so there's no munging to speak of.
17:46	chouser	TimMc: FWIW, if you're in control of the Clojure that's being used by Java, I'd highly recommend exposing a class and/or interfaces from Clojure, rather than using RT.var...
17:47	TimMc	Debugging this from the Eclipse Display view is pretty painful.
17:47	cgray	how do you require a non-closure js library in cljs?
17:47	TimMc	chouser: AOT is not really an option at this point.
17:47	chouser	TimMc: Ah, pity. :-/
17:48	chouser	TimMc: I'd be curious why, if you have a moment.
17:48	raek	TimMc: it seems like that you get the X is unbound error even if the namespace is not existing. have you double-checked the spelling of the ns name?
17:49	TimMc	raek: If I misspell the name it throws. :-)
17:49	raek	(RT/var "foo" "bar") returns an unbound var for me
17:50	chouser	TimMc: you can call .getMappings() on the namespace object
17:50	raek	TimMc: even for the RT.var call?
17:50	TimMc	raek: RT.var for nonexistent var returns an unbound var.
17:51	raek	ah, I see. thought you mean a not found on classpath exception for some reason :-)
17:51	TimMc	chouser: Big existing Maven-managed Java project. No Clojure yet in the codebase. I'm trying to use Enlive to replace some JSPs and string concatenation, but the data objects I would be taking apart are in the same project as the Java classes that would call the Clojure -- so I would need 2-step Java compilation.
17:51	chouser	TimMc: ok, got it.
17:52	TimMc	Java servlets compiled against Clojure AOT against common POJOs.
17:52	TimMc	This way I can just stick the Clojure in src/main/resources and be done with it, but for an RT.var().invoke().
17:54	chouser	clojure.lang.Namespace.find(clojure.lang.Symbol.intern("your.namespace")).getMappings()
17:55	chouser	that should throw a NPE if the namespace wasn't loaded, otherwise return a Map of all symbols in that ns
17:55	ninjudd	TimMc: an alternative would be to split the Clojure code out into a separate library that compiles the Java code, and then the Clojure code that depends on it. then you could add that as a dependency of your main project
17:57	TimMc	Not sure if I can get away with that politically yet.
17:57	TimMc	That may depend on how well I can sell this use of Enlive. :-)
17:58	TimMc	(Also, I suck at Maven.)
17:58	ninjudd	me too ;)
18:00	TimMc	OK, time to blow away ./target... this is absurd.
18:03	TimMc	...and now it works. -.-
18:07	cemerick	ninjudd: interested in a protocol design page in the nREPL project?
18:07	gtrak	TimMc, surely if you re-write the codebase in 1/10 the size they'll consider it?
18:08	TimMc	Maven automates my build process. Now I just need something to automate Maven's rm -rf ~/.m2/repository, rm -rf ./target, mvn, refresh Eclipse cycle.
18:08	TimMc	gtrak: inorite
18:09	TimMc	gtrak: It shouldn't be too hard, since some of the execs used to work at Symbolics. :-)
18:09	gtrak	ah great :-)
18:10	TimMc	Who I actually need to convince is the product lead.
18:10	gtrak	yea, we have a really conservative senior guy as well
18:10	gtrak	i think i might sneak it in in testing
18:12	TimMc	Hmmm. I see that stopping and starting the project is not enough to pick up changes to the clj files.
18:13	TimMc	Ah, right -- I need to repackage the clj files by running mvn.
18:13	gtrak	classpath resources
18:13	TimMc	yup
18:15	jodaro	oh no
18:16	jodaro	someone sent an xkcd link
18:16	jodaro	now i can't stop
18:16	gtrak	TimMc,
18:16	gtrak	how do you like enlive?
18:16	gtrak	i was using stringtemplate, but it seems like too much trouble
18:16	gtrak	jodaro, don't stop
18:16	TimMc	gtrak: It's pretty nice. Haven't gotten deeply into it, but it seems very flexible and reasonable.
18:16	jodaro	http://xkcd.com/974/
18:18	TimMc	gtrak: This is where I have used it so far: https://github.com/timmc/seqs-and-colls (Warning: Content of generated page has not been sufficiently reviewed by people who know more about Clojure than I do.)
18:20	gtrak	TimMc, what's it do?
18:21	gtrak	some kind of table layout stuff based on clojure collections?
18:22	TimMc	gtrak: It generates the tables in http://www.brainonfire.net/files/seqs-and-colls/main.html
18:22	gtrak	ah cool
18:22	TimMc	gtrak: If you go into src/seqs/html/ you'll see the table template and the template for the rest of the page.
18:23	TimMc	The table is actually used as a snippet.
18:23	gtrak	I've been doing similar stuff with google's javascript api, i might release it in clojure
18:23	gtrak	have you seen that one? for their charts?
18:23	TimMc	nope
18:24	gtrak	i think i could knock it out pretty fast, they have a java api
18:25	TimMc	link?
18:25	clojurebot	your link is dead
18:25	TimMc	"SchrÃ¶dinger's link is dead."
18:26	raek	TimMc: nice.
18:26	raek	(seqs-and-colls)
18:26	TimMc	(and WTF is wrong with my unicode)
18:26	TimMc	raek: Please feel free to review -- I'm writing it to understand the material better myself.
18:27	raek	looks like UTF-8 reinterpreted as Latin-1 and then recoded to UTF-8...
18:27	TimMc	No doubt.
18:28	tensorpudding	someone misspelled Schrödinger
18:28	TimMc	That was me.
18:28	ninjudd	cemerick: yes, that sounds good
18:28	TimMc	I can't tell whether my terminal, my desktop computer, ssh, screen, irssi, or my home server is screwing it up.
18:28	gtrak	TimMc, http://code.google.com/apis/ajax/playground/#json_data_table
18:29	raek	TimMc: it could be mentioned that (empty? x) is just (not (seq x))
18:29	TimMc	Yeah.
18:29	TimMc	There are a lot of TODOs.
18:29	gtrak	TimMc, check out the charts
18:29	ninjudd	cemerick: here's the portal code in case you haven't looked at it yet https://github.com/flatland/portal
18:30	ninjudd	cemerick: i half finished a bash nREPL/portal client on the plane ride back
18:30	gtrak	TimMc, so I think I'll do that while I've got the library in my head, it has great possibilities
18:30	TimMc	gtrak: What do I do with that link?
18:31	gtrak	well you can play around with the different chart examples on the left
18:31	raek	TimMc: http://blog.crazyfraggle.com/2009/09/irssi-charset-issues.html
18:31	gtrak	they have a java library to generate the JSON used in the 'Edit Code" box
18:31	ninjudd	cemerick: would have taken way less time if i had been able to use google instead of the bash info page
18:32	raek	TimMc: 2. and 3. are the most important ones
18:34	raek	TimMc: sequences are not implemented as lists. ones implemented in clojure are usually built with cons'es, but then can be built with any ISeq object
18:34	raek	(I think the data structures have their own classes that implement ISeq)
18:34	mabes	is it possible to bind a var to a class and then use that var as a type hint?
18:35	mabes	I can't get it to work...
18:35	mabes	,(let [my-type String string "foo" ] (.toUpperCase ^my-type string))
18:35	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: my-type, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
18:35	raek	mabes: no
18:35	mabes	hrmm.
18:35	raek	the type hint is needed at compile time
18:35	TimMc	raek: PesistentList and LazySeq both use Cons cells though, right?
18:36	amalloy	TimMc: i think PL actually uses PL cells
18:36	raek	TimMc: a PersistentList cell and a Cons cell are very similar. I think it's just that the list is counted and the cons not that is the difference
18:36	TimMc	hmm
18:36	gtrak	cons implements ISeq but it's a different class
18:36	mabes	raek: well, so I am writing a macro that will extend a protocol over several Java classes.. they all have the same method signatures but I want to type hint them to avoid reflection.
18:37	raek	with cons I was refering to clojure.lang.Cons
18:37	raek	persistent lists also use cons cells, but another kind
18:37	amalloy	mabes: that is possible but you have to use a different syntax for it - ^foo is read-time metadata, whereas you want macroexpansion meta
18:38	raek	TimMc: a persistent list cons cell requires the rest to be a persistent list, but a seq cons cell only requires it to be a seq
18:38	TimMc	Ah!
18:38	TimMc	"Sequences are not implemented as lists, they just act a lot like them and are backed by similar data structures."
18:38	TimMc	*may be backed
18:38	amalloy	(defmacro hinted-length [s] `(.length ~(with-meta s {:tag `String})))
18:39	raek	well, a list is also a seq...
18:39	Guest68238	I want to be able to write: (map-fn [m a b c] ...body...) and have it evaluate to: (fn [map] (fn [m a b c] ...body...) map (:a map) (:b map) (:c map)). I'm trying to write a macro for this (and running into problems), but is there something clever I can do to just use a fn instead?
18:39	TimMc	A list is a seq?
18:39	TimMc	Hmm, that's right.
18:39	mabes	amalloy: thanks for the example, I'll see if I can get this to work :)
18:39	gtrak	both PList and Cons extend ASeq
18:40	amalloy	Guest68238: don't write a macro, write a function
18:40	TimMc	raek: Mainly I'm trying to figure out the ontology here.
18:40	duck1123	Guest68238: try to avoid using "map" as a variable name. It'll bite you
18:40	gfredericks	amalloy: I think he asked how :)
18:40	amalloy	oh. i missed that
18:40	Guest68238	duck1123: Ah, of course. Sorry, my actual problem is different. I was trying to make a simple example instead.
18:40	gfredericks	I probably would have missed it too if I was trying to answer it
18:40	amalloy	Guest68238: it's not clear what m and map are supposed to be in your example though
18:41	TimMc	raek: Would you say that seqs are a special type of coll?
18:42	raek	hrm
18:42	Guest68238	amalloy: Yeah, it's hard to explain. Basically, I want to be able to write a fn that has params which are symbols of a map. But, when invoking the fn, it's just given a map. So, I basically want to generate a wrapper fn that destructures the map into the relevant keywords and passes the map vals to the fn I wrote. That probably makes no sense.
18:42	amalloy	TimMc: yes
18:42	raek	I usually think of the collections as one group of things and the seqs as another
18:42	raek	they intersect at PersistentList, though
18:42	arosequist	amalloy: Sorry, didn't realize I was guest. Changed my name.
18:42	TimMc	and LazySeq
18:42	duck1123	(map #(% m) [:a :b :c])
18:43	TimMc	,((juxt coll? seq?) (range))
18:43	raek	all the collections have at least one seq implementation
18:43	clojurebot	[true true]
18:43	amalloy	arosequist: you probably do need a macro for that, if your goal is to avoid typing {:keys [a b c] :as m} in the function impl
18:43	raek	(vector has two: (seq v) and (rseq v))
18:43	raek	a list is its own seq
18:43	arosequist	amalloy: Yeah, that's my goal. It seems trivial, but there is a valid reason for it. I'll keep working on my macro. Just wanted to make sure a macro was necessary.
18:44	raek	you can think of a seq as an immutable variant of an iterator
18:44	gfredericks	(defmacro def-named-args-fn ...)
18:44	amalloy	arosequist: i think your easiest route is to have the macro just expand to a function with :keys destructuring
18:45	raek	hrm, so what exactly is a collection? something you can call conj and seq on?
18:45	gfredericks	(defmacro def-named-args-fn [name arg-names & body] `(defn ~name [{:keys [~@arg-names]}] ~@body))
18:45	gfredericks	arosequist: ^ that there might even work
18:45	arosequist	amalloy: This might be a dumb question, but can that destructuring be done in the args list of fn itself?
18:45	amalloy	yes
18:46	TimMc	raek: coll? defines it as IPersistentCollection :-)
18:46	amalloy	gfredericks: feh. don't complect creating a function with def'ing it. macros that def are on the yucky side
18:46	arosequist	gfredericks: Wow, that looks like exactly what I wanted to do, except I just want fn (not defn).
18:46	amalloy	(defmacro map-fn [keyvec & body] `(fn [{:keys ~keyvec :as ~'m}] ~@body))
18:46	arosequist	gfredericks: But that's easy to chang,e of course
18:47	raek	TimMc: also, don't forget the obscure PersistentQueue... :P
18:47	arosequist	amalloy: gfredericks: Thanks a ton. I spent way too long on this earlier.
18:47	gfredericks	amalloy: you're a wiser man than I.
18:47	TimMc	raek: Ooh, that's right -- I should raid the clojure.core repo for mentions of "IPersistentCollection", etc.
18:48	amalloy	gfredericks: it's easy to sound that way by repeating words rich has made up
18:48	gfredericks	amalloy: I thought you sounded that way _despite_ parroting rich :)
18:48	raek	,(let [q (conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 1 2 3)] ((juxt #(conj % 0) pop peek seq) q))
18:48	clojurebot	[#<PersistentQueue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue@e41ad39e> #<PersistentQueue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue@8d94bf51> 1 (1 2 3)]
18:51	gfredericks	"Macros that Def" would be a good name for something...
18:53	gtrak	an overtone band name
18:53	duck1123	there are valid cases for macros that def though
18:54	duck1123	some of my favorite macros also def
18:54	raek	indeed. but if there is no non-def'ing variant things get hard to compose.
18:55	amalloy	absolutely. i'm a big fan of defn and defmacro. but i'm glad fn and macrolet are around too
18:56	duck1123	well, presumably with any macro that defs, there's no need to compose it. it's used only in places where def is used. (top level)
18:56	amalloy	s/need/ability?
18:56	gfredericks	duck1123: I think you just said "if you use them right, then you won't be using them wrong."
18:56	duck1123	that's a good rule
19:15	gfredericks	the object returned from clojure.core/bean is rather dangerous I think :/
19:20	gfredericks	I take it back.
19:20	alexbaranosky	I've got to say, ClojureBot's pretty cool
19:21	alexbaranosky	who created it?
19:21	cemerick	hiredman: you're being paged in #leiningen :-)
19:21	technomancy	alexbaranosky: I convinced hiredman to write it
19:27	Bahman	Hi all!
19:27	alexbaranosky	Bahman: hi
19:41	Bahman	I am about to start learning Clojure. I'm familiar with both Lisp and Java. I feel at home with Emacs/Eclipse/NetBeans. Which development environment do you people recommend? If I chose Emacs, could it help me with auto-completing and documentation of Java classes?
19:42	alexbaranosky	Bahman: 70% of Clojurians use Emacs
19:42	tensorpudding	emacs won't help you autocomplete java classes while writing clojure code
19:42	tensorpudding	it's possible to get it while writing Java if that's your thing
19:42	tensorpudding	though the java experience in emacs is probably much less pleasant than eclipse
19:43	Bahman	tensorpudding: No. I meant auto-complete when using Java classes inside Clojure code.
19:43	duck1123	It'll autocomplete on classes, but ususally only if it's already seen it
19:43	Bahman	Yes...for Java I use Eclipse.
19:43	ihodes	Bahman: definitely emacs for the most functionality and using it with the cutting edge. its doc facilities are nice, and you can autocomplete clojure code with it, if necessary, of course.
19:43	tensorpudding	then what i said at first applies
19:43	Bahman	Alright...I'll go with Emacs. Thanks folks.
19:44	Bahman	I hope Clojure works with Slime.
19:44	tensorpudding	emacs will give you "documentation" of a kind
19:44	tensorpudding	with clojure
19:44	TimMc	Bahman: There's something similar to slime.
19:44	tensorpudding	slime works for clojure if you use swank-clojure
19:45	tensorpudding	the fact that errors lead to java stacktraces are a fly in the debugging ointment
19:45	cgray	Eek, a mouse!
19:45	tensorpudding	but otherwise slime is pretty much the same as it is in CL
19:46	Bahman	Would you please pass me a link on howto setup Emacs (with Slime?) for Clojure?
19:46	cgray	sorry, had to share :)
19:46	alexbaranosky	Bahman: I was pointed to this emacs code for setting my emacs up: https://github.com/samaaron/dot-emacs
19:47	technomancy	Bahman: there's a "getting started with Emacs" page on the official Clojure wiki, but the main thing to keep in mind is to stick with the official documentation of clojure-mode and swank-clojure rather than blog posts
19:47	TimMc	cgray: Actual mouse?
19:48	cgray	TimMc: yep. very small.
19:48	Bahman	Thanks folks.
19:48	bhenry	Bahman: this one is more basic without all sam's personal preferences https://github.com/overtone/live-coding-emacs works great out of the box
19:49	TimMc	cgray: Yay! Also, stop leaving food out.
19:49	cgray	TimMc: I know :(
19:49	tensorpudding	my advice is install emacs, the emacs-starter-kit, lein and swank-clojure
19:49	TimMc	They may be free pets, but they're impossible to litter-train.
19:49	Bahman	bhenry: I have Forth and Common Lisp setup in .emacs and .emacs.d ... can't use such solution.
19:50	cgray	TimMc: It's also getting cold here, so they're more likely to come inside to avoid freezing to death
19:50	TimMc	Bahman: Since you already have a working Emacs, just get clojure-mode etc.
19:50	tensorpudding	oh, you already have emacs configured
19:50	tensorpudding	get clojure-mode from marmalade
19:50	alexbaranosky	so since you know your way around Emacs well you may just be able to pilfer what you need from the link I posted from Sam Aaron's github account ?
19:50	TimMc	Bahman: Emacs 23, 24, or what?
19:51	Bahman	23.3
19:51	Bahman	alexbaranosky: That's a good approach!
19:52	TimMc	You might also poke around the emacs-starter-kit to pilfer from that.
19:53	TimMc	It has various clojure-related goodies.
19:53	tensorpudding	if you really like it you can fork it and alter it to your needs
19:54	goodieboy	anyone know how to create a custom 404 response in noir?
19:58	amalloy	{:status 404 :body {...}}
20:00	Raynes	amalloy, goodieboy: https://github.com/ibdknox/noir/blob/master/src/noir/response.clj#L32
20:01	goodieboy	oh sorry...
20:01	goodieboy	I mean override the default/built-in one?
20:01	goodieboy	there is one for 404 and 500
20:02	goodieboy	I think I found it actually? https://github.com/ibdknox/noir/blob/master/src/noir/statuses.clj#L15
20:02	Raynes	goodieboy: Looks like it, yes. Good eye.
20:03	goodieboy	Cool, I'll give that a try!
20:07	tolstoy	And specifically: http://webnoir.org/autodoc/1.2.1/noir.statuses-api.html
20:07	tolstoy	Er, documentationally.
20:23	TimMc	OK, does this come across as o-with-umlaut? ö
20:25	Bahman	The latest swank-clojure is 1.3.3, right?
20:26	brehaut	TimMc: yes, but then it was followed by [incompatible encoding]; that could just be colloquay though
20:26	amalloy	TimMc: my client renders it as a question mark, and it usually gets unicode right
20:29	Bahman	The latest Clojure is 1.3...is it possible to tell Leiningen to use that instead of 1.2?
20:30	tolstoy	TimMc: Worked for me. Textual/MacOSX
20:30	technomancy	Bahman: you can change the version in your project's project.clj file
20:31	technomancy	you can't change the version leiningen itself uses though
20:31	tensorpudding	unless you build lein by hand
20:31	Bahman	technomancy: It's probably a naive question, but swank-clojure uses Clojure 1.2.1...does this mean that my REPL will use Clojure 1.2.1?
20:32	technomancy	Bahman: no, if you specify a different version in your project then it will take priority over swank's version
20:32	technomancy	as long as you're working inside a project
20:32	Bahman	I got it...thanks.
20:35	technomancy	Bahman: "lein help tutorial" covers a lot of this stuff if you get confused.
20:35	Bahman	Excellent!
20:37	moogatronic	technomancy: i'm pretty excited about the "joining of forces" between lein and cake. mostly for what it says about the nature of the clojure community.
20:37	moogatronic	props.
20:37	bhenry	what are the contrasts between refs and atoms (specifically in clojurescript if that makes a difference)
20:37	alexbaranosky	moogatronic: me too
20:40	scottj	bhenry: cljs doesn't have refs
20:40	bhenry	perfect. that makes the decision totally easy
20:40	TimMc	amalloy: Thanks, that's good to know. Everyone else's system is probably fixing it up at render-time.
20:41	technomancy	moogatronic: it's great. the #leiningen channel has seen more activity in this one day than the entire past year.
20:43	amalloy	hah, i'm glad to hear it's not like this all the time. i was thinking i might have to leave or else never get anything else done
20:44	Bahman	I think I've got clojure-mode, paredit-mode, lein and swank-clojure installed. But when I open a project file, there is no 'clojure-jack-in' command. What am I missing?
20:46	technomancy	Bahman: probably an old version of clojure-mode; you want 1.11.4
20:47	Bahman	technomancy: That's right...it's 1.7.1
20:47	technomancy	Bahman: maybe you have an old package.el that's hard-coded to only load from tromey.com?
20:48	Bahman	technomancy: I think that's the case. I installed the one on marmalade website.
20:50	technomancy	Bahman: if marmalade is giving you issues you can just install from git. it'll be easier once package.el is standardized in emacs 24
20:50	technomancy	it used to be there were a lot of moving parts so installing by hand was discouraged, but now clojure-mode is the only necessary piece of elisp
20:51	Bahman	eval-buffer: Symbol's value as variable is void: package-archives
20:51	Bahman	I guess I better install it by hand.
20:52	technomancy	yeah, that's due to an old version of package.el
20:56	Bahman	technomancy: Should I uninstall package.el or let it be?
20:56	technomancy	Bahman: long-term you should upgrade it to http://bit.ly/pkg-el23, but short-term don't let it get in the way of learning clojure
20:57	Bahman	Will give upgrading a try. I hope it works.
20:58	gfredericks	Man there's like a whole pile of lein features I didn't know about. I'm going to start using test selectors right _now_.
20:58	alexbaranosky	gfredericks: are you looking at a webpage you could link to?
20:59	technomancy	lein help tutorial # should cover most of it
20:59	alexbaranosky	thx
20:59	technomancy	lein help sample # should get you the rest
20:59	technomancy	but it's a lot to wade through
21:00	gfredericks	alexbaranosky: I was reading `lein help tutorial` since technomancy mentioned it earlier
21:01	alexbaranosky	technomancy: just did a `lein help sample > lein-help-sample.clj `... this is serious business. I've not been using anywhere near this many of lein's features
21:02	technomancy	alexbaranosky: I certainly hope not. I would be terrified if anyone's actual project'clj file were that large. =)
21:02	alexbaranosky	I'm going to update Midje's project file to mention its mailing list, for example :)
21:02	technomancy	the mailing list actually makes it all the way into the pom
21:03	amalloy	technomancy: lancepantz showed me a project.clj that was about that big. some kind of horrible monstrosity but i forget what
21:03	technomancy	eep
21:07	Bahman	technomancy: I upgraded package.el and it seems to be working. How can I tell the version of Clojure from within REPL?
21:07	technomancy	,clojure-version
21:07	clojurebot	{:major 1, :minor 3, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
21:07	technomancy	Bahman: ^ do that (without the comma)
21:08	Bahman	Excellent. Working like a charm. Thank you technomancy for your help and your great software :-)
21:08	technomancy	glad it's working for you =)
21:09	technomancy	can't wait for emacs 24 to be released; there's too much confusion with package.el
21:10	Bahman	Yes..I can't wait for it since it's supposed to support bidi text and right-to-left languages...It'd be wonderful to name the functions in your mother language :-D
21:13	gfredericks	technomancy: the best thing about clojurebot's comma is that you don't have to conciously omit it at the repl
21:13	Bahman	Something weird...perhaps it's a problem on my side...but I can't work with slime...the moment I start to type it gets disconnected and when I press ENTER it says "Not connected. Use M-x slime to start a lisp."
21:14	Bahman	What am I doing wrong?
21:14	Bahman	I connect with slime-connect and the same thing happens.
21:18	Bahman	This is the error log I suppose: error in process filter: Wrong type argument: listp, 0
21:18	Bahman	Lisp connection closed unexpectedly: connection broken by remote peer
21:19	Bahman	Perhaps it's something with slime contribs I have loaded...checking...
21:26	scottj	Bahman: make sure you have a slime version compatible with swank-clojure
21:27	Bahman	scottj: It's something with slime contribs...I'm trying to figure it out but if I disable all of them, clojure works fine.
21:27	scottj	I use slime-fancy but ymmv
21:29	bhenry	any ideas on how to shuffle in clojurescript?
21:30	bhenry	or at least get me to the point of Math.random()?
21:30	bhenry	i don't know how to require that or make it work in cljs
21:32	Bahman	scottj: slime-fancy doesn't work..trying to activate one by one and see which ones cause failure.
21:35	bhenry	sweet found it. rand is still in. duh.
21:40	amalloy	bhenry: ACTUALLY you might want to borrow a lazy-shuffle from me
21:40	bhenry	i might, but i'm dealing with 6 items in an array and all of them will be consumed.
21:40	amalloy	specifically, line 38 of https://gist.github.com/1341292 - it assumes the collection you give it is already a vector, so wrap it with vec otherwise
21:40	bhenry	but that could come up in the future.
21:41	bhenry	wait that will work in clojurescript?
21:42	amalloy	oh, i guess cljs doesn't have transients, right?
21:42	bhenry	doubtful if they don't even have shuffle : P
21:42	amalloy	well, you can use pop/assoc instead, and drop the transient/persistent
21:42	amalloy	it all still works; transient was for perf
21:43	Bahman	scottj: Would you please send me your .emacs file?
21:43	bhenry	amalloy: i just did this for my smalltime case https://gist.github.com/b81c1b337e10b6712a13
21:44	amalloy	whoa. that is like 0% to work right, isn't it?
21:44	bhenry	?
21:44	amalloy	&((fn shuffle [seq] (map #(nth seq (rand-int (count seq))) seq)) (range 5))
21:44	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox11775$eval13910$shuffle--13911$fn
21:45	bhenry	the output looked good to me
21:45	amalloy	bhenry: if so it was unrelated to your input. there is no way this function does what you want
21:46	amalloy	map calls its function with one arg, and your #(...) accepts zero args only; that's one problem
21:46	bhenry	ah, well in javascript that doesn't matter.
21:46	bhenry	i can fix that though.
21:46	amalloy	the other is that you can wind up getting (say) 0 every time you call rand-int
21:46	scottj	Bahman: https://github.com/scottjad/dotfiles/blob/master/.emacs I use slime from oct 15 2009
21:47	amalloy	so that (shuffle (range 5)) returns (0 0 0 0 0)
21:47	Bahman	scottj: Thanks.
21:47	bhenry	ooh. good point. for my case, i want to put the tiles back in the bag so repeats are okay
21:47	amalloy	&((fn shuffle [seq] (map (fn [_] (nth seq (rand-int (count seq)))) seq)) (range 5))
21:47	lazybot	⇒ (4 0 0 2 3)
21:48	amalloy	bhenry: that's fine, but don't call it shuffle :P
21:48	bhenry	yeah
21:48	amalloy	you're just implementing rand-nth
21:48	Bahman	scottj: Oh...mine is CVS version 11-09-28 :-D
21:48	bhenry	you're right.
21:48	scottj	Bahman: duh you can't use new slime!
21:48	alexbaranosky	amalloy: I talked to Creighton on the plane trip back from the Conj. He said soemthing about wanting to add test coverage to 4Clojure, is that right? I wouldn't mind helping
21:48	amalloy	alexbaranosky: yeah, none of us have any idea how to write tests for a clojure website
21:49	amalloy	(or how to use midje)
21:49	alexbaranosky	have you seen the RObozzle video?
21:49	Bahman	scottj: How "new"?
21:49	scottj	Bahman: last two years :)
21:49	Bahman	Doh!
21:50	alexbaranosky	amalloy: this video shows how to use Midje: http://vimeo.com/19404746
21:50	scottj	Bahman: swank-clojure docs mention one date that's supported, I've had best luck with the date I mentioned earlier
21:50	alexbaranosky	I wonder if you could write checkers for checking rendered HTML
21:51	Bahman	Thanks scottj.
21:51	alexbaranosky	amalloy: say you have tests checking slightly below browser level, that don't touch the DB. You could then make assertions against the rendered HTML. Something like this........ <let me type something up>
21:53	xeqi	amalloy: for integration level tests check out clj-webdriver
21:53	alexbaranosky	xeqi: browser tests right?
21:53	xeqi	yeah
21:57	alexbaranosky	amalloy: you there?
21:57	amalloy	alexbaranosky: yeah, waiting on your <let me type something up>
22:00	alexbaranosky	amalloy: the way we usually test html/gui stuff at work is to use some very small amount of Selenium tests to make sure the code works end-to-end (could use webdriver for that), and then test most other details of HTML generation with lower-level tests
22:00	alexbaranosky	amalloy: those lower level tests would be on the layer that generates the templates for example. Then just parse them with a dom parsing library and make assertions with XPath
22:00	alexbaranosky	amalloy: <I gave up on the example>
22:01	amalloy	ugh. i don't like the idea of selenium tests. maybe that's just because i imagine it would be hard for every contributor to set up, though
22:01	alexbaranosky	When I get some time I'll look at 4Clojure to see if I can share something more concrete, but I don't know how 4clojure is set up so have to think on it
22:02	alexbaranosky	so don't use selenium
22:02	alexbaranosky	I hate them too :)
22:02	amalloy	chuckle
22:02	alexbaranosky	they're a pain in the rear
22:02	alexbaranosky	and fail for no reason sometimes, because of timeouts and timing errors with JS/AJAX etc
22:02	amalloy	i think the hard parts are (a) stubbing the db calls, and (b) figuring out how to either test or skip the html-generation part of the rendering
22:04	alexbaranosky	so stubbing DB could be simple with Midje, assuming the points of interaction with the DB are few
22:04	alexbaranosky	say you have a function (get-user-details ....) or whatever that secretly goes to the DB to get those details
22:05	amalloy	right
22:05	alexbaranosky	amalloy: then its a one line stub
22:05	spoon16	anyone else having problems with maven/lein retrieving org.apache.maven:super-pom:jar:2.0?
22:06	alexbaranosky	where the test/fact is basically saying: when I do Foo, given the DB gives me Bar, then I get Baz back
22:06	spoon16	https://gist.github.com/1366004
22:06	alexbaranosky	amalloy: if you watch the Robozzle video I'd love to hear what you think of it
22:07	amalloy	alexbaranosky: i'll check it out when i get home
22:09	alexbaranosky	amalloy: I'm opening up 4Clojure on my machine now, I'll let you know if I get any relevant ideas
22:29	Bahman	Thanks scottj, I got it working with that version.
22:30	alexbaranosky	amalloy: how have you all liked using Mongo with Clojure? I'm excited at the ease of use of the Combo
22:30	amalloy	it's fantastically simple. i haven't really used anything else (eg jdbc) to compare with, though
22:31	PPaul	how hard is it to get clojurescript running?
22:31	amalloy	s/simple/easy, i guess, is more what i meant. i haven't evaluated whether it's simple :P
22:31	alexbaranosky	amalloy: Korma looks nice, but its still dealing with a more foreign way to represent data than Clojure uses
22:32	alexbaranosky	I've used Mongo at work for a smallish project, and I'm still weighing whether it is simple or easy as well
22:32	scottj	PPaul: not hard if you use cljs-watch
22:32	PPaul	can i use lien?
22:33	scottj	not really, I think there is a clojurescript artifact on clojars but it might be very outdated
22:34	PPaul	i had a hard time with clojure until i started using lien
22:34	scottj	I guess there are newer artifacts; don't recall exactly how to use them
22:35	scottj	maybe look at lein-clojurescript
22:35	scottj	remember cljs is alpha though and getting it setup will probably be the easiest part of doing something useful with it :)
22:37	alexbaranosky	amalloy: I like this (letfn .... def... def) idiom I see, though I ponder about using macro-do in cases like that
22:37	PPaul	ouch
22:37	PPaul	i was hoping that i could use it with backbone and jquery
22:37	PPaul	manipulating js objects/arrays is a pain
22:38	alexbaranosky	PPAul: there are folks using it with JQuery
22:38	amalloy	alexbaranosky: i try to avoid macro-do, like i mentioned earlier. if you can do it with functions, it's usually simpler. sometimes i go as far as using intern instead of def, but that's more questionable
22:38	PPaul	intern?
22:38	alexbaranosky	amalloy: I think I agree, but I have a new toy, and everything looks like it might work with macro-do now :-\
22:39	amalloy	&(doc intern)
22:39	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! intern is bad!
22:39	amalloy	,(doc intern)
22:39	clojurebot	"([ns name] [ns name val]); Finds or creates a var named by the symbol name in the namespace ns (which can be a symbol or a namespace), setting its root binding to val if supplied. The namespace must exist. The var will adopt any metadata from the name symbol. Returns the var."
22:39	alexbaranosky	is this too complicated?: (macro-do [[name host]]
22:39	alexbaranosky	`(def ~name (get-in config [:hosts host]))
22:39	alexbaranosky	[static-host :static]
22:39	alexbaranosky	[dynamic-host :dynamic]
22:39	alexbaranosky	[redirect-hosts :redirects])
22:40	alexbaranosky	amalloy: I guess the fact is that ANY macro is complicated, and that use of macro-do only saves a little code, so in production I probably wouldn't use it
22:40	amalloy	alexbaranosky: probably it is, because you got it wrong in your paste :)
22:40	alexbaranosky	amalloy: well, no tests to run it against
22:40	amalloy	touche
22:40	alexbaranosky	something funky with the ~name bit?
22:40	amalloy	(you missed the ~ in ~host)
22:41	alexbaranosky	ahhhh oops
22:41	alexbaranosky	I can have 4Clojure covered in 400 tests asap ;)
22:41	amalloy	sounds like a plan! i'm headed home now though
22:42	alexbaranosky	adios
22:46	alexbaranosky	anyone know how to fast-forward a fork on github? Can't find it on there, but a blog post says it is... maybe it has been taken off the interface?
22:54	alexbaranosky	technomancy: hey thanks for fixing lein int's exception bug - helps me out a lot
23:04	amalloy	alexbaranosky: some reason not to just do it with git? having github do it might be possible but seems silly
23:04	alexbaranosky	lazy
23:09	alexbaranosky	amalloy: thanks for kicking me in the lazy butt, just did it by hand
23:13	biallym	Hey! how would I access class.STATIC_CONST
23:13	biallym	namely I have a class and I can't seem to be able to get clojure to like the static variables declared in it
23:14	biallym	I have tried Class/STATIC and Class.Static
23:20	bhenry	biallym: did you try (.STATIC_CONST class)
23:23	scottj	is there a 4clojure workflow I'm missing that involves git checkout 4clojureproblems, filling in the code, running tests with clojure-test-mode, and M-x submit-solution? :)
23:23	biallym	that worked... which means the static must not live where I thought it did >.>
23:25	joeblow2006	Hi, can I ask syntax related questions here?
23:25	scottj	joeblow2006: yes
23:26	joeblow2006	Ok. I'm working on a simple Clojure program right now. I'm trying to work out the following function:
23:26	joeblow2006	(defn fun3 [[x y z t]] (if (= x y z) (vector x y z t) (iterate fun2 [x y z t])))
23:27	joeblow2006	If I do something like (fun3 [10 10 10 1])) where the 1st 3 values are equal, the function returns the vector.
23:27	joeblow2006	What I want to happen is to check for x=y=z each time fun2 returns.
23:28	joeblow2006	instead of checkin only initially as it does now.
23:28	joeblow2006	I'm thinking it's not possible to do this in one method, so I'm trying out fun4 which is as follows: (defn fun4 [[x y z t]] (take-while #(not= %1 %2 %3) (fun3 [x y z t])))
23:29	brehaut	(defn fun3 [[a b c :as s]] (when (= a b c) s))
23:29	joeblow2006	I think I need to destructure the vector in order to test the components, but I can't seem to figure out that part.
23:29	joeblow2006	OK, let me try that.
23:30	brehaut	or (defn fun3 [s] (when (apply = (take 3 s)) s))
23:30	bhenry	brehaut, i think he wants fun2 to be in there when the first three aren't equal
23:30	brehaut	bhenry: ah, my bad
23:30	joeblow2006	Exactly. It needs to check for equality and evaluate fun2 if it is not.
23:31	brehaut	then switch the when for an if ?
23:32	joeblow2006	Isn't that what I have? (defn fun3 [[x y z t :as v]] (if (= x y z) (vector x y z t) (iterate fun2 [x y z t])))
23:33	joeblow2006	I can't replace the when with an if because I have no place to put the v
23:40	joeblow2006	Oh I see. (when (= a b c) s)) returns s. My problem is different.
23:40	joeblow2006	I think it's best to make a "dumb" fun3, just the following: (defn fun3 [[x y z t]] (iterate fun2 [x y z t]))
23:41	joeblow2006	And then try to manipulate fun4: (defn fun4 [[x y z t]] (take-while #(not= %1 %2 %3) (fun3 [x y z t])))
23:43	joeblow2006	Scratch that...
23:43	joeblow2006	(defn fun4 [[x y z t]] (take-while #(not= %1 %2 %3) (iterate fun2 [x y z t])))
23:44	amalloy	scottj: someone has a lein 4clojure plugin, which does a fair chunk of that
23:44	scottj	amalloy: cool I'll check it out
23:45	joeblow2006	The %1 stuff seems to be wrong. The problem is that fun2 returns a vector and I need to access the components of the vector to check equality.
23:49	amalloy	joeblow2006: simplest replacement function is (partial apply not=)