#clojure – 2011-10-28

2011-10-28

01:06	hiredman	the lack of unsigned values in java makes my head hurt some times
02:05	daaku	what is the right way to reference a third party library in a macro in my library intended for use by yet another party?
02:06	daaku	i had a :use X :only a directive which failed, i'm thinking a fully qualified require is the right way?
02:08	cemerick	daaku: your macro emits code that is evaluated in the user's namespace; how you set up your namespace's requires/uses has no impact.
02:09	cemerick	The failsafe way is to use fully-qualified references to the third-party library's functions/macros.
02:09	daaku	cemerick: ah, i see. do fully qualified names not need :use or :require directives?
02:11	cemerick	They only require that the namespace in question has been loaded. You can :require it in your namespace to be sure of that, but that :require has no impact on how the code your macro(s) emit is evaluated.
02:11	daaku	cool, got it. thanks!
02:11	cemerick	np :-)
02:17	amalloy	using ` is a shorthand for fully-qualifying things anyway
02:18	ibdknox	and we all like to use shorthand :D
02:18	amalloy	&(require '[clojure.string :as str])
02:18	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.string
02:18	amalloy	Raynes: ^? seriously?
02:18	amalloy	,(require '[clojure.string :as str])
02:18	Raynes	I don't know anything about that.
02:18	clojurebot	nil
02:19	amalloy	,`str/join
02:19	clojurebot	clojure.string/join
02:21	ibdknox	how would clojure.string be missing?
02:21	ibdknox	lol
02:21	Raynes	It isn't. That isn't even the right error.
02:21	cemerick	amalloy: I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that daaku wasn't using `.
02:21	cemerick	shrug
02:22	amalloy	cemerick: he probably wasn't. i just want him to use (`foo whatever) instead of ('otherns.third-party.tool/foo whatever)
02:22	daaku	i'm also learning clojure.test, so i'll see how it breaks soon :)
03:04	bobnodes	hi
03:05	bobnodes	I get the following error when using sandbar's wrap-stateful-session
03:05	bobnodes	"java.lang.IllegalStateException: Can't dynamically bind non-dynamic var: sandbar.stateful-session/sandbar-session"
03:05	bobnodes	ideas anyone?
03:11	mrh0057	bobnodes: what version of clojure are you using
03:11	bobnodes	1.3.0
03:12	mrh0057	bobnodes: ring doesn't support 1.3.0
03:12	bobnodes	haha no way
03:12	mrh0057	use 1.2.1
03:12	bobnodes	that explains that then
03:13	bobnodes	thanks mrh0057
03:33	amalloy	ring doesn't support 1.3? that would sorta surprise me - perhaps it's just sandbar that doesn't?
03:34	amalloy	(or, more likely still, the particular version of sandbar or ring that you're depending on)
03:35	amalloy	huh. well, apparently it's ring. who knew? it looks like ring has a clojure13 branch, but i don't know how developed it is
03:36	pyr	ring works fine with 1.3
03:36	pyr	I'm using ring and clout on a 1.3 project
03:36	pyr	no pb whatsoever
03:40	bobnodes	I'm using sandbar 0.4.0-SNAPSHOT
03:43	bobnodes	no-one here is using sandbar with clojure 1.3?
03:49	bobnodes	no sandbar users here?
03:57	bobnodes	sigh
04:30	rmrfchik	anyone uses vimclojure? where I can find vimclojure.jar for nailgun server?
04:39	ibdknox	Ring definitely works with 1.3
04:45	ibdknox	rmrfchik: https://github.com/ibdknox/lein-nailgun
04:58	rmrfchik	ibdknox: something went wrong. "Exception in thread "main" org.apache.maven.artifact.resolver.ArtifactNotFoundException: Unable to download the artifact from any repository"
04:58	rmrfchik	shoul I add something to maven?
05:00	ibdknox	what were you doing that caused that?
05:19	lucian	has anyone tried batmanjs on phonegap? there are some caveats in the project's .html about file://
05:41	bobnodes	any way of having lein-ring start a REPL as well?
06:34	algal	Hi, quick newbie question on preferred setup on OS X: is it sensible to install leiningen from macports? or better just to install it directly?
06:35	algal	I find macports usually makes stuff easier, but sometimes not when the "stuff" effectively includes its own distro system.
06:39	walter	You could try this: http://www.unschooled.org/2011/10/how-to-setup-emacs-for-clojure-on-mac-os-x-lion/
06:42	algal	walter: thanks. But I'd rather steer clear of homebrew. I've already got the basics up and running (Aquamacs + SLIME + macports/leingen + swank-clojure), but I'm starting to need to make changes to things and I'm trying to make sure my current setup is a recipe for pain down the road...
06:43	ejackson	algal: just install in straight, its easy and the preferred method
06:44	algal	For instance, I'm noticing that the plain vanilla REPL leon offers doesn't include contribs in the class path. What's the "correct" way to fix this? I'm a bit leery of modifying the swank-clojure shell script that was setup by leiningen itself.
06:44	algal	ejackson: thx
06:47	algal	(meaning, the script in ~/.lein/bin/swank-clojure )
06:52	ejackson	algal: you need to include any libraries in your project.clj, the contrib stuff should be there by default though
06:52	ejackson	no i'm lying, include it in your project.clj, sorry.
06:54	algal	The swank-clojure project.clj ( https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/blob/1.3.x/project.clj ) doesn't seem to explicitly include contrib stuff. Is it including it implicitly in some way I'm not seeing?
06:54	algal	I think the effect of this is that, on the plain-vanilla REPL it offers, I can't do (require '(clojure contrib trace)) . But I'm new to the system so I'm still wrapping my head around how namespaces, class path, defproject, etc., interact with each other...
06:55	ejackson	yeah, ok your mental model is off
06:55	ejackson	you need to create a project in which you work. you describe the dependencies you need in your project.clj file (such as contrib, say)
06:55	ejackson	in the directory you run lein deps to grab the deps
06:56	ejackson	then run lein repl and it will load you up a repl with your deps classpathed in
06:57	ejackson	so heres an example of a really small project: https://github.com/Raynes/hobbit
06:57	ejackson	you'll see the deps are in its, no leiningen's, project.clj
06:59	algal	ejackson: hmm, okay. But what happens when I run "lein swank" to get a default REPL from emacs, or just run "lein repl" from a directory without a project.clj file ? Both those also give me a REPL, presumably with some kind of "default" config. Is there way to tweak that default configuration?
06:59	algal	Or maybe the lesson is, always always always work within a leiningen-created project, because otherwise the dependency management is too painful -- even for just a quick hack. ?
07:00	ejackson	exactly
07:00	ejackson	you'll very soon want more than clojure itself
07:01	algal	But I can't ask for more easily once I'm already up and running? For instance, let's say I did "lein repl" in a plain directly. Now I've got my REPL. But I can't require contrib stuff because the contrib jar isn't in the classpath. Is there a straightforward and blessed way to add it to the CLASSPATH from in the REPL and just get on with things?
07:02	algal	Or is it strongly preferred/required to declare all your dependencies before you start your REPL?
07:02	ejackson	it is strongly preferred, the whole classpath thing is a real PITA
07:03	ejackson	i think there is dark magic to fiddle the classpath in a running JVM, but its not something you want to be doing AFAIK
07:03	joshnz	Can you set a environment variable? Is there a CLASSPATH (i think)...? Then (require....) as needed? You can do this with the Ruby REPL.
07:03	ejackson	certainly not during your first steps of learnig it
07:03	algal	Okay. Good to know....
07:04	ejackson	joshnz: the JVM is not as flexible in this regard, again, AFAIK
07:04	algal	I've been mostly doing Common Lisp, where you just (load …) whatever you need once you're up.
07:04	lnostdal	i see there's a few json libs out there .. is this https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire what people use now?
07:05	ejackson	yeah, its a total PITA, which is why lein and cake exist !
07:06	semperos	I have a function that, for one of its params, takes a list of functions
07:06	kzar	lnostdal: I used clojure.data.json last time
07:06	semperos	the function does one thing if all of the functions in that list evaluate to true
07:06	semperos	and another if any one of them is false
07:06	algal	Hmmm.. Just stumbled into clojure.core/add-classpath, but it's marked deprecated.
07:07	semperos	what is the best way to structure that logic in Clojure, such that I evaluate the minimum number of functions to discover whether there is a false value in the list and "change course" in the program logic?
07:07	semperos	thoughts?
07:07	kzar	semperos: use and I suppose
07:08	kzar	semperos: (and true true false (print "hello"))
07:08	ejackson	,(doc while)
07:08	clojurebot	"([test & body]); Repeatedly executes body while test expression is true. Presumes some side-effect will cause test to become false/nil. Returns nil"
07:09	ejackson	not what I thought it was
07:09	semperos	kzar: the list is not fixed, and `and` as a macro doesn't allow `apply` type logic
07:09	ejackson	,(doc take-while)
07:09	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of successive items from coll while (pred item) returns true. pred must be free of side-effects."
07:10	kzar	ejackson: Oh, right (take-while identity stuff)
07:10	ejackson	yup
07:11	lnostdal	ok, kzar
07:12	semperos	is the take-while comment directed by way?
07:15	ejackson	i don't understand ?
07:17	algal	for this following along at home on the mystery of add-classpath, it seems like it was deprecated b/c it didn't work in the presence of OSGi and nontrivial class loaders. Someone is trying to replace it with something that does work: https://github.com/cemerick/pomegranate
07:17	timvisher	anyone know where swank/slime redirects their stdout?
07:17	timvisher	as in what buffer?
07:18	timvisher	I'm trying to see logging information from tools.logging and I can't find it anywhere
07:18	timvisher	but when I run `lein repl` from a shell, I get the log output nicely inline in the console
07:19	timvisher	The config I'm using is here https://github.com/timvisher/tools.logging-testing
07:20	raek	timvisher: if you use clojure-jack-in it will appear _at the top of_ the swank buffer (before the slime.el text)
07:20	raek	if you use lein swank, it will appear in the terminal you ran the lein swank command in
07:21	timvisher	i generally use jack-in
07:21	timvisher	i was expecting it, thus, to show up in swank, but it doesn't appear to
07:22	timvisher	nor in slime-events
07:22	timvisher	nor in SLIME Compilation
07:22	ejackson	raek: at the top !
07:25	timvisher	oh gosh
07:25	timvisher	raek: sorry I didn't notice that first line
07:25	timvisher	lol
07:25	timvisher	now I feel like an idiot. :)
07:26	timvisher	well that is confusing
07:28	timvisher	so now that I've got this figured out, how might i, without changing any code, log the inputs and outputs of all function calls?
07:28	timvisher	something like defadvice in emacs
07:28	timvisher	or aop?
07:28	clgv	timvisher: robert.hooke might help you
07:30	timvisher	shucks, that technomancy kid's so friggin smart... :)
07:30	timvisher	thanks for the pointer, that looks like exactly what I want
07:32	ejackson	timvisher: share some thanks for the man and get a shirt! http://www.cafepress.com/technomancy?utm_medium=cp_social&utm_source=addthis&utm_campaign=CafepressShop#.TqoexsC5DuE.twitter
07:33	timvisher	Woah! _and_ he's enterprising!
07:33	mbac	has anyone written a clojure web framework that uses CPS for to provide http statefulness
07:33	timvisher	i may have to get me thath mug
07:33	mbac	a la weblocks for common lisp?
07:38	timvisher	is there any way to attach a repl to a running `lein ring server`?
07:57	semperos	drawing a blank...is there an "all" equivalent of `some`, such that it makes sure all elements of a list return true for a given predicate?
08:01	tordmor	(not (some (complement pred) coll))
08:02	semperos	that makes sense (and is what I coded), but was just trying to remember if a specific core fn already existed...
08:10	terom	(doc every?)
08:10	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns true if (pred x) is logical true for every x in coll, else false."
08:14	semperos	terom: thanks
08:45	fdaoud	persistence
09:01	edw	With semantic versioning, is 1.0.0-SNAPSHOT "headed toward 1.0" and therefore possibly in flux with respect to API, etc? I'm tryin' to Do The Right Thing here...
09:05	moogatronic	edw: That is how we did it in the java shop I worked in (maven/pom). I don't know if SNAPSHOT necessarily carries any implications with API flux by definition though.
09:07	moogatronic	The SNAPSHOT in maven is just indicating that there could be (1..n) releases / builds of the current version until the release happens, since you're in development mode.
09:09	cemerick	edw: SNAPSHOT doesn't carry any specific semantics about the scope of changes.
09:09	cemerick	it just means HEAD
09:11	edw	cemerick: So if I have 1.3.2 out there and I've got a branch with backwards incompatble changes checked it, it would be a decent idea to tag it as let's say 2.0.0-SNAPSHOT?
09:12	edw	s/checked it/checked in/
09:12	cemerick	s/tag/version
09:12	cemerick	yes
09:12	edw	Cool. Thank you.
09:13	fdaoud	cemerick: your book has been delayed another month! argh!
09:14	cemerick	oh?
09:14	cemerick	fdaoud: I have no idea how those projections are generated in the first place :-)
09:14	cemerick	We'll be done with it this month, FWIW.
09:15	edw	moogatronic: Thanks too! Was AFK; didn't see your comments.
09:16	moogatronic	edw: no problem. =)
09:41	fdaoud	cemerick: I think it's 2-3 months after the authors are done. copyediting, typesetting, indexing, and production.
09:42	cemerick	fdaoud: I've been told 4-6 weeks. shrug
09:42	cemerick	We'll see how good O'Reilly is, I guess. :-P
09:42	edw	I have yet to figure out a command for shutting down a REPL in SLIME that doesn't require I go manually kill buffers in order to have M-x clojure-jack-in work in Emacs. Is there a secret "obliterate all SLIME state" command?
09:42	fdaoud	cemerick: do you guys do the indexing?
09:42	cemerick	nope
09:42	edw	(I've tried ,sayonara ,quit and ,close)
09:43	cemerick	Isn't indexing an automated process these days?
09:43	fdaoud	cemerick: indexing, yes. indexing worth something, no.
09:44	cemerick	That's interesting.
09:44	jcromartie	how to know your software project is bloated: when the Git change summary for a branch that adds a single dropdown to a single web form is "35 files changed, 702 insertions(+), 437 deletions(-)"
09:44	mdeboard	Ha.
09:46	cemerick	fdaoud: I would have thought some n-gram analysis would get you 90% of the way there.
09:47	fdaoud	cemerick: sure, professional indexers must have tools to do a lot of the grunt work, but it's definitely a wholly automated process.
09:47	fdaoud	*definitely not
09:47	fdaoud	at some point at manning authors had to produce the index. not sure if that's still the case.
09:48	cemerick	ouch
09:48	cemerick	That may have been enough to keep me from doing the book! :-P
09:49	cemerick	Especially since I wouldn't have the tools to do the grunt work.
09:49	fdaoud	yeah. to me that's a service the publisher must provide.
09:51	kzar	cemerick: I was just scrolling through the history to see what I missed and I wondered, what's the book about?
09:51	cemerick	kzar: http://oreilly.com/catalog/0636920013754/
09:52	kzar	When it's done will there be a version for Kindle?
09:53	cemerick	Should be, yeah.
09:54	kzar	Cool I'll wait for that then
09:55	jcromartie	I'd imagine you could build an index from metadata added to the text itself
09:55	jcromartie	by basically annotating words you want in the index, kind of like WikiLinks or something
09:56	cemerick	oh, the pain ;-)
10:00	fdaoud	jcromartie: yes, but you would have to do it as you write, so that you don't have to do it all at the end. that's painful and wasteful because you constantly add/edit/remove material. or you could do it all at the end so you don't waste your time. more pain.
10:01	fdaoud	it's all bad :(
10:03	theignorati	is there a function like time that doesn't print the result but returns it as well as the result of the expression?
10:03	jweiss	any suggestion for navigating a tree structure in a ref? zippers are no good cuz they are not multithreaded. i am currently trying update-in style paths, since my trees just edit nodes, don't add/remove any, but this seems fragile
10:04	theignorati	or should I just copy the time macro and modify it
10:05	andrewclegg	theignorati: http://pastie.org/2773296
10:05	andrewclegg	I happened to write my own just yesterday :-)
10:06	andrewclegg	use it like: (timed + 2 3)
10:06	andrewclegg	gives [5 <time_in_milliseconds>]
10:08	theignorati	thanks!
10:11	andrewclegg	theignorati: btw that catches and returns the exception as I wanted to count how many exceptions I got (and how long they took)
10:11	andrewclegg	you may want to do something less crazy, like just letting them bubble thru
10:22	gtrak	does cliff click's final fields stuff apply to clojure?
10:23	gtrak	the optimizations he mentions in last couple of blog posts
10:30	gtrak	http://www.azulsystems.com/blog/cliff/2011-10-27-final-fields-part-2
10:36	Fossi	gtrak: how would that apply or not?
10:36	gtrak	Fossi, well, I know we use final fields all over the place, but the other condition is to have accesses be deeply nested and available for inlining
10:37	gtrak	I feel like it should apply, I just don't know enough to say definitively
10:38	Fossi	you mean whether an optimization would do anything performancewise?
10:38	gtrak	yes
10:38	gtrak	apparently it would for jruby
10:41	Fossi	ah, ok
10:46	cemerick	andrewclegg, theignorati: you might want to prefer criterium (by hugod) instead: https://github.com/hugoduncan/criterium/
10:47	theignorati	yes I saw that but that's like for testing how fast things are and comparing them?
10:48	andrewclegg	cemerick: I was actually testing the performance of a remote thrift service, so in my case, all the subtle things to do with my jvm's performance were probably unnecessary :-)
10:48	theignorati	I want this so I can add it to my Compojure app and log how fast things are
10:48	theignorati	then look at pretty graphs all day
10:58	patchwork	anyone here use sandbar? looks like it recently stopped being maintained.
10:58	patchwork	is there a canonical fork yet?
10:58	patchwork	I just found out that it was the reason clojure.contrib.jar was getting added to my project
11:08	patchwork	So, I am getting to the point where I may have to switch from 1.3 back to 1.2
11:08	patchwork	I feel like I am fighting a losing battle here
11:13	patchwork	is that where everyone is at? have we abandoned 1.3?
11:14	gtrak	patchwork, have people abandoned python 3?
11:15	patchwork	gtrak: I think they have. I know a lot of people who use python, and no one uses python 3
11:17	patchwork	The problem is a transition like this takes the coordination of everyone, which inevitably fails because we are all so widely distributed and disagree etc.
11:17	gtrak	it just takes a little time i think
11:17	patchwork	I think python 3 is the perfect example
11:17	patchwork	there comes a point when I have to balance idealism with getting work done
11:18	gtrak	well, people are going to scratch their own itches, it might not be that hard to port sandbar over
11:20	gtrak	seeing as you have an itch :-)
11:22	patchwork	gtrak: that is reasonable, and that is what I am going to do today. it is frustrating because I have a lot of other things that need to get done on my own project. It is getting tiresome that whenever I want to use a library I have to spend time to figure out how to extract contrib, test it, debug it, post it as an alternative on clojars etc etc. it takes a lot of time I should be spending on what I'm getting paid to do.
11:23	gtrak	perhaps the sandbar google group might have something to say about it? I know, this is kinda the rub with open source
11:23	patchwork	gtrak: that is why the temptation to just revert to 1.2 and quit fighting it grows stronger
11:24	gtrak	yea, the clojure contrib split is probably more of a pain than 1.3
11:24	gtrak	has no one ported old contrib to 1.3?
11:24	patchwork	gtrak: as I understand no one is going to
11:24	patchwork	the idea is to let each library continue on its own, so that they don't have to coordinate releases etc
11:25	patchwork	contrib as a whole moved way slower than any of its subprojects
11:25	Raynes	IIRC, there is an unofficial old-contrib compiled against 1.3.
11:25	patchwork	which is the reason for the splitup in the first place
11:25	Raynes	But please, for the love of God, don't use it.
11:25	patchwork	Raynes: exactly, that would just exacerbate the problem
11:26	patchwork	That is the deal, I believe in the split, monolithic contrib was/is a problem
11:26	gtrak	maybe we just need a script to munge the source of stuff using contrib 1.2 to the new libs
11:26	gtrak	how hard would that be?
11:26	patchwork	gtrak: It is not that easy. going through sandbar there are a number of different contrib libraries with specific functionality that themselves have not been ported to 1.3
11:26	Raynes	Extremely.
11:27	patchwork	so updating one library ends up being a task of updating a whole tree of libraries
11:27	gtrak	ugh
11:27	patchwork	or figuring out how to replicate the functionality without the library
11:27	patchwork	which takes debugging, deep understanding of what it is doing there in the first place
11:27	patchwork	etc etc
11:28	gtrak	yea, looks like sandbar is a few thousand lines
11:28	patchwork	I think I am talking myself into reverting to 1.2, I just don't want to give up on the dream
11:28	patchwork	Like, if I revert, then I am becoming part of the problem
11:28	gtrak	noir has some of that functionality too, doesn't it?
11:29	TimMc	Are there any major libraries that maintain both 1.2 and 1.3 versions?
11:29	patchwork	but if I stay, I am taking on the charge of updating the entire clojure ecosystem
11:29	TimMc	I suppose you could use separate git branches...
11:29	dnolen	TimMc: core.match supports 1.2, 1.3 and ClojureScript. core.logic supports 1.2 and 1.3
11:29	patchwork	gtrak: I have not heard of noir
11:29	dnolen	but I also didn't wait around to try out 1.3
11:29	TimMc	dnolen: How do you manage it?
11:30	Raynes	It isn't really that hard to write Clojure than runs on both 1.2 an 1.3.
11:30	patchwork	TimMc: most libraries that are being maintained have both 1.2 and 1.3 support
11:30	gtrak	patchwork, http://webnoir.org/autodoc/1.2.0/index.html
11:30	cemerick	TimMc: nREPL supports 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3; same for clutch
11:30	patchwork	Raynes: I agree, really it is using contrib that is the problem
11:30	cemerick	Hrm, sorry, clutch is 1.2+
11:31	TimMc	Raynes: My question is how the sausage gets made. Separate git branches? Automatic conversion scripts that munge headers and cut releases?
11:31	patchwork	TimMc: I have seen people use lein multi-deps
11:31	cemerick	That's just for testing
11:31	cemerick	It doesn't take much to make the same source files compatible with both.
11:32	patchwork	cemerick: Ah I see
11:32	cemerick	i.e. no sausage :-)
11:32	patchwork	cemerick: Yeah, the language itself really only has the ^:dynamic issue
11:32	patchwork	the big problem is all the requiring of contrib that happens
11:32	cemerick	some old contrib libraries are 1.3-safe
11:33	cemerick	it's a big hairball to pull in, but it's not like the whole thing is marred.
11:33	patchwork	cemerick: sure, but you still have to make the change
11:33	cemerick	What change?
11:33	patchwork	track down where the new library is (since it's not in contrib)
11:33	bsod1	how can I use clojure 1.3 with counterclockwise?
11:34	patchwork	change the require from 'clojure.contrib.* to whatever it is now
11:34	cemerick	clutch still just depends upon contrib 1.2.0; it just happens to use 1.3-safe namespaces
11:34	TimMc	patchwork: Was just referring to contrib deps, not language features.
11:34	cemerick	(a situation we'll be eliminating eventually, but it's not a huge priority)
11:34	patchwork	: (
11:36	cemerick	heh
11:36	dnolen	TimMc: I realized early on never to use anything from contrib. I rarely used binding. So supporting 1.2 and 1.3 was easy
11:36	cemerick	the most significant dependency is the http agent stuff, which has no immediate corollary
11:36	llasram`	OOC, why is `add-classpath' deprecated (and not seem to work at all in 1.3)?
11:36	dnolen	supporting ClojureScript is easy if you're library is macro-centric.
11:37	dnolen	llasram`: because it's too hard to get working everywhere and noone has owned it.
11:38	cemerick	llasram`: it's very limited, and not generalized. Maybe try https://github.com/cemerick/pomegranate
11:38	llasram`	cemerick: Heh. I was actually just trying to get that working :-). The finding-and-pulling dependencies works fine, but nothing seems to be actually getting added to the classpath
11:39	cemerick	llasram`: by all means, file a bug, especially if you have a repeatable testcase
11:39	cemerick	I'd very much like to get pomegranate working well.
11:39	llasram`	cemerick: Oh, is it supposed to work under 1.3?
11:40	llasram`	I was assuming that whatever broke core/add-classpath for 1.3 was doing the same for pomegranate
11:40	cemerick	Yes, pomegranate should work under 1.2 and 1.3
11:41	llasram`	Ok, cool. I'll make sure I don't have anything funky in my environment
11:41	cemerick	Nah, I'm sure it's just a bug — or perhaps some characteristic of your environment that's getting in the way? In any case, definitely file a bug, esp. if you think you have a repeatable testcase.
11:44	TimMc	dnolen: I see, thanks.
11:47	llasram`	That is weird... lein project with just clojure 1.3 and pomegranate as deps. Works fine from 'lein repl', but under swank the effect is as if the add-classpath silently fails
11:47	jamiltron	dnolen: I know you have some experience with OpenGL + Clojure. I've been toying around with LWJGL and I've been getting some pretty choppy display. Did you ever find a similar issue?
11:48	dnolen	jamiltron: hmm I never messed w/ it much, only in the context of Penumbra. I don't recall choppy display issues.
11:48	dnolen	jamiltron: since that involves a lot of interop calls, probably a good idea to have reflection warnings on.
11:49	jamiltron	dnolen: I noticed that penumbra's tests often have choppy display too. And I've ran the tests on three different machines.
11:49	jamiltron	dnolen: good idea
11:49	dnolen	jamiltron: huh, what OS ?
11:50	jamiltron	dnolen: OSX, Arch Linux x64, and Windows 7 x64
11:50	dnolen	I would sometimes see choppiness as the JVM gets warmed up, but that would get smoothed out.
11:50	jamiltron	Pretty much everything I could get my hands on
11:50	dnolen	jamiltron: yeah I ran them on OS X, asteroids, tetris, pong were all pretty smooth.
11:51	jamiltron	Huh, that's interesting.
11:51	dnolen	jamiltron: http://ideolalia.com/creating-a-simple-game-in-clojure
11:52	dnolen	it was always as smooth as the linked video.
11:52	jamiltron	dnolen: are you running it via lein?
11:52	dnolen	jamiltron: I would run via swank
11:53	dnolen	jamiltron: I'm assuming you're running the JVM w/ a good chunk of memory in server mode.
11:55	jamiltron	dnolen: I actually have a poor understanding of the jvm, so I should look into that :P
11:57	dnolen	jamiltron: that's probably it. JVM starts off with very little memory, you'll start GC'ing all the time. server mode is important, you won't get all the crazy optimizations w/o it.
11:58	jamiltron	dnolen: Are there any good articles or tutorials on running the jvm in server mode? I'm pretty green regarding all this stuff.
12:04	zilti	Are there some kind of "access modifiers" for clojure functions?
12:05	clgv	jamiltron: java -server .... ;)
12:06	clgv	"Select the Java HotSpot Server VM. On a 64-bit capable jdk only the Java Hotspot Server VM is supported so the -server option is implicit."
12:07	dnolen	jamiltron: http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/wasinfo/v6r0/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.ibm.websphere.express.doc%2Finfo%2Fexp%2Fae%2Ftprf_tunejvm.html
12:07	dnolen	jamiltron: the important thing is -server and the memory options
12:07	jamiltron	dnolen: thank you!
12:10	cemerick	Is there any justifiable use of aset-XXX rather than just using aset (along with an appropriate hint on the array in question)?
12:11	cemerick	llasram`: hrm, swank may be causing an issue there…
12:11	mabes	is this the best reference documentation about 1.3's new primitive support? http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Documentation+for+1.3+Numerics
12:12	mabes	it doesn't talk about primitives in collections which is what I'm curious about
12:12	cemerick	There is a primitives-bearing vector implementation (see vector-of)
12:13	cemerick	Beyond that, values in collections remain boxed.
12:13	mabes	oh, I guess I got the wrong impression by following a recent thread on the list
12:15	cemerick	right, aset-XXX works with multidimensional arrays
12:20	mabes	cemerick: thanks for the vector-of tip
12:20	dnolen	cemerick: there's no reason to use aset-XXX ever, it does not inline - I think its there purely for higher order usage.
12:23	mabes	so, if you wanted to sum a collection of primitives you can't use reduce... you have to write a loop, correct?
12:23	dnolen	mabes: areduce
12:23	cemerick	mabes: see areduce
12:23	cemerick	heh
12:24	cemerick	dnolen: but this:
12:24	cemerick	,(aset ^ints (make-array Integer/TYPE 5 5 5) 1 1 1 (int 5))
12:24	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: argument type mismatch>
12:24	cemerick	,(aset-int (make-array Integer/TYPE 3 4 5) 1 1 1 (int 5))
12:24	clojurebot	5
12:25	cemerick	The latter's value is getting boxed anyway, but at least it's not an error. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing.
12:26	dnolen	cemerick: look at the implementation of aset, it supports setting multi dim arrays as well, don't have time to look into why your code isn't working at the moment.
12:28	cemerick	right, this works:
12:28	cemerick	,(aset (make-array Integer/TYPE 5 5 5) 1 1 1 (Integer. 5))
12:28	clojurebot	5
12:28	mbac	when i seq "1000" it becomes (\1 \0 \0 \0)
12:28	mbac	what is that representation?
12:28	cemerick	multidim aset goes through apply,
12:28	mbac	and how do i make it a string again?
12:28	cemerick	(class \c)
12:28	cemerick	,(class \c)
12:28	clojurebot	java.lang.Character
12:29	cemerick	(apply str (seq "foo"))
12:32	Raynes	mbac: That would be a sequence of characters.
12:32	jamiltron	dnolen: Thanks for all your help. I don't have my issue fixed yet but I think I'm getting closer.
13:00	ejackson	what is the accepted way to extend a protocol to clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap and clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap with the same code ?
13:01	jcromartie	ejackson: can you implement it on a shared superclass
13:01	jcromartie	?
13:02	ejackson	yeah, why not... suggestions ?
13:05	ejackson	i guess that's lazy... I'll go look it up sheepish
13:05	cemerick	ejackson: IPersistentMap
13:06	ejackson	cemerick: you are a superhero ! I'm bringing you a cape at the conj... Thanks.
13:06	cemerick	:-)
13:06	ejackson	cemerick: btw - were you also thinking of Bayesian nets during Sussman's talk ?
13:07	cemerick	A union jack as a cape would be not bad :-P
13:07	ejackson	seemed like a node that stored a distribution and updated it on upon new distributions on its inputs would hack it.
13:08	cemerick	ejackson: Some. I was already very familiar with Radul's work on propagators that he dug into some, so I had that in mind as well.
13:08	ejackson	lol. No no, we don't have supreheroes here, "overly keen".
13:08	cemerick	The thing about biological systems is that there's lots of scale-specific processing, vision being the canoncial example.
13:09	technomancy	ejackson: what about Angle Grinder Man?
13:09	ejackson	OK, the propogators was new to me, so I was tacking backwards.
13:09	technomancy	http://www.google.com/images?q=angle%20grinder%20man&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&sa=X&oi=image_result_group
13:09	ejackson	technomancy: LOL !
13:09	jcromartie	the fact that you can extend an interface with a protocol implementation is really brilliant
13:10	cemerick	At least in my naive conceptualization of bayesian nets, getting to a point where you have different "granularities" present in the network and the JPDs doesn't seem obvious.
13:10	cemerick	ejackson: ^
13:10	cemerick	feature-isa-feature-isa-feature, etc.
13:11	ejackson	cemerick: yeah, I've not thought about scale either.
13:11	cemerick	e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocognitron
13:13	ejackson	interesting. I see almost everything in the hierarchical model way, and then just try figure out marginals. Haven't thought of less directed or scaled things.
13:15	ejackson	but the notion of updating distributions in response to fresh data and propogating that all about the place is a natural fit
13:32	cemerick	ejackson: I agree. Once I get my feet under me a bit more, I'd like to start experimenting with hybrid networks; interop between bayesian + e.g. core.logic + declarative propagator-style bits.
13:33	ejackson	cemerick: yeah, I hate to invoke Dementors, but the probability monad really seemed to be useful for that sort of thinking.
13:33	cemerick	probably just a pipe dream until I level up quite a lot, but oh well.
13:33	ejackson	naaaaah
13:33	cemerick	Dementors?
13:33	cemerick	some harry potter thing?
13:34	ejackson	i'm not going to ask
13:35	Raynes	cemerick: You don't know what you're missing. Not sure I'd have survived a life without every flavor beans.
13:35	ejackson	for the record, dementors are nasty bits of spectral horror that suck the joy out of everything
13:35	cemerick	ejackson: I can (and have) hacked around with bayesian networks and such, but I'm still lacking in the formalisms — and that's where such things meet.
13:35	ejackson	i'm always stunned to read tutorials like "monads are like x", when x is clearly Dementors, in all cases.
13:35	ejackson	or should be, but never is.
13:35	pjstadig	technomancy: with your talk recently about Dune, did you see this? http://twitter.com/#!/msimoni/status/129916820076503040
13:35	redinger	Funny, I googled Dementor and Bayes and found http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/45/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality. I was trying to figure out what you were referring to :)
13:36	cemerick	Raynes: My first impression that it was a kiddie LoTR, so I didn't bother.
13:36	Raynes	cemerick: Admittedly, the first few are cheesy and kiddish, but I get the sense that it was done on purpose because they were kids. Things and people grow up significantly in the later books/movies.
13:37	Raynes	As a whole the series is good.
13:37	ejackson	cemerick: the secret (don't tell) is that everybody is lacking in this background, there's just so much, and it all written in different formalisms.
13:37	cemerick	hah!
13:37	cemerick	Makes me sad for the world.
13:40	mdeboard	Do any of the bots have github support?
13:40	blooper	what are people here's thoughts on Clojure's performance in the language benchmark shootout thing? (http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=clojure&lang2=java)
13:41	hugod	cemerick: the stanford ai-class is covering bayesian network theory
13:42	cemerick	redinger: Whoa, that has ~70 chapters!
13:42	cemerick	Not quite sure what to make of it.
13:42	redinger	Fan Fic :)
13:42	cemerick	hugod: I heard!
13:42	cemerick	That means that everyone at the conj is going to own my ass when I give my talk :-P
13:43	ejackson	cemerick: I really doubt that
13:43	ejackson	have I recommended this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Probabilistic-Graphical-Models-Principles-Computation/dp/0262013193/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319823371&sr=8-1 ?
13:43	chewbranca	harry potter and the methods of rationality was a surprisingly good read
13:44	chewbranca	I stay away from fan fiction, but checked it out after seeing it top HN 3 times
13:44	hugod	cemerick: it was poorly explained - I think that particular lesson will be responsible for a huge drop out rate
13:44	ejackson	its solid, but I keep failing to get into it.
13:44	cemerick	ejackson: I opted for this instead: http://www.amazon.com/Modeling-Reasoning-Bayesian-Networks-Darwiche/dp/0521884381/ref=pd_luc_sbs_02_01_t_lh#reader_0521884381
13:44	cemerick	Of course, in addition to the Pearl and such.
13:45	ejackson	so many books, so little few hours
13:47	cemerick	ejackson: The Darwiche outline was somewhat more compelling, IMO. Covers various topics that Killer doesn't (including compilation to circuits, which I'm particularly interested in).
13:47	ejackson	redinger: LOL, I was just making it up, how funny.
13:48	cemerick	Also, Darwiche is at UCLA; I took the proximity to Pearl as a positive signal.
13:48	ejackson	cemerick: circuits, yes, the other thing Sussman kept invoking for me were FPGAs
13:49	cemerick	well, bayes net -> circuit -> clojure code is my roadmap :-)
13:49	technomancy	pjstadig: niiiice
13:50	ejackson	gotta hop. Its Friday in England, I have sausages and ale to find.
13:50	ejackson	cheers all
13:50	dnolen	cemerick: http://okmij.org/ftp/kakuritu/index.html is pretty fascinating, mixing logic programming with probabilistic programming.
13:51	technomancy	sausages and ale... I should go to England.
13:54	gtrak	hugod, are you also taking the ml class? I think I'm going to pull back on the AI one
13:55	mdeboard	gtrak: why's that?
13:55	gtrak	also working a full-time job and having a social life :-)
13:55	mdeboard	ah
13:55	gtrak	the ml class programming assignments seems like it'll be more fun, and there's some overlap
13:56	hugod	gtrak: I am, and it is a lot less demanding than the ai class
13:57	gtrak	yea
13:57	hugod	luckily I have seen most of the maths before
13:57	gtrak	i've done some statistics, but it was a long time ago
13:59	mdeboard	,(+ 1 2)
13:59	clojurebot	3
13:59	mdeboard	wake up clojurebot
14:00	gtrak	4
14:01	mdeboard	,commits
14:01	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: commits in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
14:02	mdeboard	,commits mattdeboard/saved-search
14:02	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: commits in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
14:02	mdeboard	Hm
14:25	srid	so ... (range) can't be used with only a "start" argument?
14:26	srid	,(take 5 (drop 3 (range)))
14:26	clojurebot	(3 4 5 6 7)
14:26	srid	no better way?
14:29	gtrak	whoa, ([] (range 0 Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY 1))
14:32	llasram`	To POSITIVE_INFINITY and... no further!
14:34	gtrak	it's bugged
14:34	gtrak	,(range Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY (- Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY 1))
14:34	clojurebot	()
14:36	Raynes	srid: ##(take 5 (iterate inc 5))
14:36	lazybot	⇒ (5 6 7 8 9)
14:36	Raynes	That's essentially range with only a start value.
14:42	gtrak	,(+ 5 (range 5))
14:43	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
14:43	theignorati	how would I get the first part of an expression in a macro, like (first `(println "hello")) ?
14:44	jcromartie	theignorati: can you restate the question?
14:44	gtrak	,(map (partial + 5) (range 5))
14:44	clojurebot	(5 6 7 8 9)
14:47	theignorati	heh
14:48	theignorati	how would a macro look that does this: (ma (println "foo")) => (handle-name "clojure.core/println") (println "foo")
14:50	stuartsierra	,(resolve 'println)
14:50	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/println
14:50	stuartsierra	,(name (resolve 'println))
14:50	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Var cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Named>
14:51	stuartsierra	,(let [m ((resolve 'println))] (str (name (:namespace m)) "/" (name (:name m)))
14:51	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
14:51	stuartsierra	,(let [m ((resolve 'println))] (str (name (:namespace m)) "/" (name (:name m))))
14:51	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
14:51	stuartsierra	eh whatever
14:51	hiredman	.sym and .ns
14:52	stuartsierra	that's cheating
14:52	hiredman	thats all there is
14:52	stuartsierra	(meta (resolve 'println))
14:52	stuartsierra	,(meta (resolve 'println))
14:52	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name println, :arglists ([& more]), :added "1.0", :static true, ...}
14:52	technomancy	yeah, it always struck me as a bit funny that namespaces aren't named
14:52	theignorati	doesn't have to be the full name, I just don't get how to get it at all in a macro
14:53	stuartsierra	(defmacro foo [form] `(do (something-with ~(first form)) ~form))
14:54	theignorati	cheers
14:54	cemerick	namespaces could use some sprucing up in general
14:55	stuartsierra	There's always tension there: adding more stuff for interactive development, removing stuff for leaner/faster production code.
14:57	cemerick	Sure.
14:57	technomancy	but I can understand reluctance to add flags for things like that
14:57	cemerick	I'm sure I'll agitate in that direction eventually
14:58	cemerick	I'd really like to see namespaces become ARefs, not just AReferences.
14:59	theignorati	is there a way of checking if a something supports metadata?
14:59	cemerick	Transactional code loading would be even better, but I'm willing to be incremental. :-)
15:10	stuartsierra	The problem with transactional code loading is the same problem as Vars: every function call is a volatile read.
15:10	seancorfield	someone just tweeted that try-clojure.org is down (nginx bad gateway error)
15:10	stuartsierra	theignorati: (instance? IMeta %)
15:14	joegallo	IMeta if you want to read it, IObj if you want to write it, iirc.
15:15	jcromartie	technomancy: can functions have metadata?
15:18	stuartsierra	yes
15:19	ibdknox	they can't in CLJS right?
15:20	stuartsierra	not sure
15:20	stuartsierra	Most runtime stuff doesn't exist in ClojureScript.
15:20	ibdknox	yeah
15:21	dnolen	ibdknox: there's no IFn protocol, I looked at this for a bit and didn't see any obvious reason why it couldn't be supported.
15:22	dnolen	if there was you could just reify IMeta + IFn
15:22	ibdknox	yeah
15:22	ibdknox	that would be cool
15:24	moomin	Hi, I was wondering if there's a sensible way to tell whether code is running under lein-ring.
15:25	moomin	I've tried various tricks with hooks but I'm banging my head against a brick wall. :(
15:25	dnolen	ibdknox: extending IFn just needs a special meaning, implement call.
15:27	cemerick	stuartsierra: But every addition to ns-interns/aliases/publics doesn't have to be.
15:29	stuartsierra	That's the cheap part.
15:29	cemerick	gotta start somewhere
15:29	stuartsierra	Namespaces can change without changing any running code.
15:29	stuartsierra	But if you really want hot code changes, you have to change root Var bindings.
15:31	cemerick	That's not a problem; I can already attach watches to vars.
15:32	stuartsierra	cemerick: So what is it you're looking for exactly?
15:32	cemerick	There's some things that end up being out of band (i.e. what the prior value of #'foo's meta was, etc.), but that's good enough.
15:34	cemerick	stuartsierra: I want my tooling to get notified of code changes in a REPL, rather than it needing to poll.
15:34	stuartsierra	ahh
15:34	cemerick	:-)
15:35	mabes	I'm unclear when, if ever, I should declare a fn to be static (via ^:static).. Is the static implied when I have a primitive return type hinted?
15:35	mabes	(I got the :static from http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Enhanced_Primitive_Support)
15:35	stuartsierra	:static is no longer used; it was only an experiment
15:35	stuartsierra	Assembla is deprecated, use http://dev.clojure.org/
15:35	mabes	okay, because it didn't seem like it made a difference
15:36	cemerick	Thus, transactionality isn't actually important a.t.m. (though it seems like it could solve a lot of "oh, I just horked my environment because some file loaded only halfway), but being able to get watches on namespaces and their component maps is.
15:38	stuartsierra	HAHAHAHA
15:39	cemerick	stuartsierra: I was joking of course, but now that I think of it…
15:40	stuartsierra	Why not put the hook in the editor, before it gets to the Clojure compiler?
15:41	stuartsierra	Or capture anything that returns a Var, like def/defn.
15:42	cemerick	oh, send each form one at a time?
15:42	cemerick	Hrm.
15:44	cemerick	This is complicated somewhat by the fact that the code loading in question is being done automatically by the eclipse builders (the framework that builds code in the background), which supports all the markup for e.g. compilation errors.
15:44	stuartsierra	eek
15:45	ibdknox	we just need our own IDE ;)
15:46	cemerick	stuartsierra: Sounds scarier than it is. It actually pushes the runtime closer to the "image" notion. All your project's code is loaded all the time, etc.
15:46	stuartsierra	interesting
15:46	stuartsierra	cemerick: By the way, how far did you get with your ClassLoader thingy?
15:46	cemerick	That's how ccw is able to maintain a comprehensive namespace browser for a given project.
15:47	cemerick	stuartsierra: you mean this? https://github.com/cemerick/pomegranate
15:47	stuartsierra	yes
15:47	cemerick	it works :-)
15:47	Raynes	"(I got the :static from http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Enhanced_Primitive_Support)"
15:47	lazybot	Assembla is deprecated. Use http://dev.clojure.org
15:47	cemerick	apparently not under swank for some reason
15:47	Raynes	stuartsierra: ^ There you go.
15:47	Raynes	lazybot automates your life. Embrace it.
15:47	cemerick	ibdknox: Laurent has tossed around the notion of producing a Clojure-only Eclipse distribution.
15:48	cemerick	Building an editor/IDE from scratch terrifies me.
15:48	ibdknox	eh
15:48	ibdknox	it's not so bad ;)
15:48	cemerick	Given resources, no. Handful of part-time-at-best volunteers? Eeek.
15:49	Raynes	cemerick: I was aiming to try it out a couple of days ago. Found myself wishing there was a Clojure-only distribution. I didn't actually download Eclipse though. Couldn't bring myself to pull down 100+ megs for ccw.
15:49	stuartsierra	cemerick: Ha, clojure-mode highlights add-classpath in red
15:49	ibdknox	cemerick, yeah, it's an interesting thing to think through. I think you can steal the base editor from someone pretty easily
15:49	Raynes	Though, I didn't have much motivation given that I never intended to use it. Mostly just planned to look at it and smile.
15:50	cemerick	Raynes: emacs is 50MB, and that's before all the additional packages… 0.o
15:50	Raynes	(< 50 140) = true
15:50	ibdknox	Raynes, are you sure?
15:50	Raynes	&(< 50 140)
15:50	lazybot	⇒ true
15:50	cemerick	ibdknox: The question is, from who.
15:50	ibdknox	woah
15:50	ibdknox	it' is
15:51	ibdknox	:p
15:51	ibdknox	cemerick, depends on the platform we target :)
15:51	Raynes	ibdknox: Also, I looked at Noir a few days ago. Fantastic. I'm moving try-clojure to it on my next round of revisions.
15:51	Raynes	It's so magical.
15:51	cemerick	ibdknox: orthogonal concern, no?
15:51	Raynes	I could have swore I saw a unicorn run through my peripheral vision.
15:52	mefesto	ibdknox: lemme +1 that... I've been messing with it the past two days. great stuff :)
15:52	ibdknox	Raynes, I've been chasing him for a while. Bastard won't stop moving.
15:52	dnolen	ibdknox: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-96
15:52	ibdknox	dnolen, thank you, sir!
15:53	ibdknox	cemerick, is it really orthogonal? I was considering doing it in HTML, that would change what editor was used dramatically
15:54	cemerick	ha
15:54	ibdknox	cemerick, to be clear, not as a web app, just using a webkit view or something locally
15:54	cemerick	oh, ok
15:54	cemerick	whew
15:54	ibdknox	haha
15:54	ibdknox	yeah.
15:54	ibdknox	I'm not crazy.
15:54	ibdknox	well
15:54	ibdknox	I am crazy... but not stupid. (most of the time) ;)
15:55	ibdknox	that was mostly pragmatic though, I know codemirror could do what we'd need for an editor and it's easy to hack the source to bend it to my will
15:55	cemerick	I dunno, I think you're shaving about the same order of magnitude of goats no matter what platform you target.
15:55	ibdknox	maybe a solid java alternative exists that's even better though
16:04	tsdh	Hi. I'm trying to define a one-off leiningen task foo in my project. For that, I've created a file src/leiningen/foo.clj with a proper namespace declaration and a foo function. However, that function uses a class in a jar that is a dependency of the overall project and I get a ClassNotFound when running the task. How do tell leiningen to add that dep also for leiningen tasks?
16:05	tsdh	Or even better, only for that single leiningen task.
16:06	tsdh	Adding the required project to :dev-dependencies doesn't do the trick.
16:10	cgray	is there documentation for the reader macros that one generally uses in defining macros?
16:11	tsdh	You mean, ~, ~@, and `?
16:11	Raynes	Syntax quote?
16:11	cgray	tsdh: yeah
16:12	tsdh	Hm, indeed http://www.clojure.org/macros doesn't contain them...
16:13	Raynes	http://clojure.org/reader
16:13	gtrak	tsdh, could also use robert.hooke potentially, this would use your dev dependencies
16:13	Raynes	tsdh: cgray: ^
16:13	cgray	Raynes: thanks
16:16	tsdh	gtrak: Ok, I'll have a look at that, although I don't feel happy to add another dependency only to be able to call (SomeClass/main "--foo" "--bar") from leiningen...
16:16	dnolen	ibdknox: clooj has some traction. would be nice to get something built off of ACE+Webkit wrapper, but that's a lot of work. Upside would be the ability to customize your IDE w/ ClojureScript.
16:16	gtrak	tsdh, yea, i don't know why it doesn't work, it probably should
16:17	gtrak	but just a suggestion
16:17	ibdknox	dnolen, codemirror is a bit nicer than ACE these days, but yes
16:17	ibdknox	dnolen, problem with Clooj is that it's starting completely from scratch
16:17	ibdknox	dnolen, and as cemerick said, without a few truly dedicated folks, that's a monumental undertaking
16:18	cgray	so i'm having a macro problem: http://pastebin.com/Hj53Q221
16:18	dnolen	ibdknox: is codemirror based off of Ace?
16:18	tsdh	gtrak: Hm, the robert.hook descriptions looks like it would allow me to hook into existing lein tasks. That won't solve my problem of leiningen not adding the jar I need to the CLASSPATH of task execution.
16:18	ibdknox	dnolen, different effort I believe
16:18	ibdknox	dnolen, very active
16:19	ibdknox	dnolen, http://codemirror.net/mode/clojure/index.html
16:19	ibdknox	it does the indenting correctly and everything ;)
16:19	gtrak	do some tasks use different dependencies than the dev-dependencies? obviously test uses dev-dependencies
16:20	gtrak	or possibly test uses regular dependencies, hmm
16:20	dnolen	ibdknox: but didn't Ace merge Bespin which had the emacs design choices to provide many hooks for scripting? Is that the case w/ codemirror as well?
16:20	cemerick	ibdknox: Reading stuff like that about web-based code editors is exactly why I'm skeptical of the entire endeavor ;-)
16:21	technomancy	tsdh: dependencies that are needed by lein tasks need to be specified as dev-dependencies
16:22	technomancy	using hooke should be a measure of last resort
16:22	technomancy	tsdh: if you need access to regular dependencies you have to use eval-in-project
16:22	dnolen	cemerick: given the state of Java hosted Clojure IDEs, I not sure what there's to be skeptical about ;) Font rendering in every Java IDE I've ever used ... sucks to put it lightly.
16:23	moogatronic	I may have missed this already, but what is the problem that CodeMirror is trying to solve?
16:23	cemerick	dnolen: font rendering?
16:23	dnolen	cemerick: yes they can't even get that right.
16:23	ibdknox	no
16:23	dnolen	much less the feature set
16:23	hiredman	maybe the javafx code dump will make it better
16:23	ibdknox	now*
16:24	cemerick	I mean, what font rendering issues are you talking about?
16:24	Raynes	cgray: Do you plan to actually use this macro, or are you just doing it for fun?
16:24	dnolen	cemerick: nuff said ;)
16:24	cgray	Raynes: I would like to use it
16:24	ibdknox	in any case
16:24	Raynes	Don't. Just catch the divide by zero exception and return nil.
16:24	ibdknox	it doesn't make sense to write an editor from scratch
16:24	ibdknox	so my goal would be to start with that in hand
16:24	moogatronic	Fonts look okay to me in IntelliJ on os x. I think the font rendering is platform dependent?
16:24	ibdknox	and build around it
16:25	technomancy	is jedit any good?
16:25	cemerick	moogatronic: Yeah, eclipse does quite well, too. Still not sure what dnolen means.
16:25	hiredman	http://gochev.blogspot.com/2009/08/ria-technologies-lets-compare-font.html
16:25	technomancy	I'm kind of surprised I don't hear about it more often
16:25	cemerick	technomancy: man, jedit keeps on keepin' on, all these years.
16:25	cgray	Raynes: good idea
16:25	tsdh	technomancy: Ah, stupid me. I correctly added the project as :dep-dependency, but I forgot to run "lein deps" afterwards.
16:26	technomancy	tsdh: add :checksum-deps true to project.clj
16:26	technomancy	then it will happen for you whenever your dependencies change
16:26	abrooks	Anyone have experience with jswat Clojure debugging?
16:26	dnolen	technomancy: it's passable Emacs competitor, but doesn't offer anything compelling to me. Tried it for a few months as my main editor for a while.
16:26	cemerick	It's supported, and used by many, but it's sort of a death watch.
16:26	technomancy	dnolen: sure, I don't mean as a competitor to Emacs, but as a bootstrapping mechanism for something clooj-like
16:27	dnolen	technomancy: there's already a Clojure mode, but it's not as nice as Clooj at least from the parentheses matching REPL experience.
16:27	ibdknox	cemerick, the reason I don't want to start from eclipse is that it is built on several assumptions about how an IDE should work that I don't think are necessarily true for the ideal Clojure env.
16:27	hugod	technomancy: does checksum-deps work for dev-dependencies when :local-repo-classpath is set?
16:27	tsdh	technomancy: Awesome, thank you.
16:27	technomancy	hugod: it should be orthogonal to :local-repo-classpath, but actually I'm not sure it will trigger for dev-deps now that I think about it
16:27	ibdknox	cemerick, also, the sheer weight of it both in the size sense and the general baggage the platform carries with it is rather undesirable
16:27	cemerick	ibdknox: That's fair, but perhaps also a worthy discussion. :-)
16:27	moogatronic	ibdknox: most of the java teams i've worked with have dumped eclipse in favor of intellij, but that doesn't help with regards to an open paltform to start from.
16:28	technomancy	it may only affect tasks that use eval-in-project
16:28	moogatronic	you're right about the assumptions for sure.
16:28	stuartsierra	I think to really be better than existing tools, a Clojure IDE would have to get away from source-code-as-text-files.
16:28	abrooks	Some of the frames (via jswat) have full locals but other frames have nulls for all their locals. Is this a known issue with jswat? Is there some way that the JVM is GC'ing stack objects before I can see them?
16:28	cgray	Raynes: actually, I think it might be better to use a macro like the one I had, because I would like to take the negative reciprocal of infinity
16:28	dnolen	stuartsierra: and replace that w/ what?
16:28	technomancy	hugod: the checksum is saved to disk separately, it's not actually based on the jar files on disk. so you can screw it up if you poke around manually
16:28	stuartsierra	dnolen: Code-as-data. All the way down.
16:28	hiredman	seems unlikely
16:29	ibdknox	moogatronic, we were always impressed by intelli-j when I worked on VS
16:29	moogatronic	the only improvement I would like to have for emacs is an easy to use visual file browser. maybe there is one. i've tried lots and have not found one that makes me happy.
16:29	hiredman	you would have to convert to text files anyway for the compiler
16:29	Raynes	(defmacro possibly-infinite [body] `(try ~body (catch ArithmeticException e# (when-not (re-find #"Divide by zero" (.getMessage e#)) (throw e#)))))
16:29	moogatronic	emacs makes it seem like i'm having fun while programming. IDEs remind me of my enterprisey days.
16:29	Raynes	cgray: ^ In any case, there is a macro that catches that error.
16:29	technomancy	hiredman: you can skip the reader
16:29	moogatronic	(as i type this, I have intelliJ loaded with java and scala code.. heh..)
16:29	technomancy	serializable-fn style
16:29	hiredman	maybe for dev
16:29	hiredman	I guess
16:30	ibdknox	moogatronic, you should have seen my designs for VS-next :)
16:30	stuartsierra	hiredman: no, the compiler takes data structures.
16:30	technomancy	not saying it's a good idea, but it's probably feasible
16:30	hiredman	stuartsierra: Compiler/compile takes a LispReader
16:30	moogatronic	ibdknox: minimalized VS?
16:30	stuartsierra	easily fixed
16:30	hiredman	shrug
16:30	hiredman	seems unlikely
16:31	ibdknox	moogatronic, very, it was much lighter weight, while being much more contextual with information when you needed it
16:31	ibdknox	moogatronic, the concepts would work even better for a Clojure IDE actually :)
16:31	moogatronic	my only objections to anything VS is that it requires windows to run it. =)
16:31	ibdknox	haha
16:31	ibdknox	that too
16:31	hiredman	there is certainly a lot of room for richer text abstractions and a bridge to clojure datastructures
16:32	hiredman	drag and drop of forms
16:32	ibdknox	sounds like the makings of a structured editor ... :-p
16:33	dnolen	ClojureScript + webkit + websocket + nRepl, would be fun.
16:33	dnolen	the biggest pain being webkit
16:33	cgray	Raynes: I got the original to work: all i needed to do was replace (quote ~args) with (list ~@args)
16:33	hiredman	sure, but you wouldn't want to abandon text at the bottom, you have an overlay of structure data
16:33	technomancy	yeah, I'm not eager to port git and emerge
16:33	hiredman	:)
16:34	cgray	Raynes: I'm sure it'll eventually be a pain in the ass, but for now I'm holding out hope that it'll work :)
16:34	ibdknox	I guess paredit is very close to the notion of a structured editor
16:34	cemerick	It seems like everyone is excited by the notion of a better editor and such, when all the other stuff that surrounds it is the real tricky part, IMO.
16:35	ibdknox	cemerick, the key is actually not to have it surround it :)
16:35	hiredman	cemerick: excited? bleh, sounds annoying, I'll stick with trying to decode mp3s in clojure in my spare time, thank you very much
16:35	cemerick	ibdknox: git, profiling, debugging, introspection (code completion / hinting), etc etc
16:36	hiredman	need more hooks exposed in the compiler
16:36	ibdknox	cemerick, done correctly that's all just in an editor
16:36	hiredman	clojure's compiler as a service
16:36	technomancy	"any discussion of rewriting Emacs expands until it becomes a discussion of rewriting an OS" -- some corollary to jwz's law
16:36	dnolen	cemerick: you're assuming everyone wants / needs that all in one place. Where's the $$$!
16:36	cemerick	dnolen: What's the "other place" we're all going to get it from?
16:37	cemerick	ibdknox: I look forward to your becoming available in December, then. :-)
16:37	dnolen	Ruby on Rails succeeded w/ TextMate which didn't exactly work that well compared to IDEs on the surface.
16:37	cemerick	:-(
16:37	cemerick	Not the kind of role model I'd like.
16:37	moogatronic	TextMate seemed sort of popular in the same way that Instragram is though.
16:38	dnolen	cemerick: people want different things.
16:38	ibdknox	cemerick, maybe I'll bring some "drawings" to the conj :)
16:38	cemerick	True enough, and they can coexist.
16:38	ibdknox	what's wrong with TextMate? other than its abandonment?
16:38	moogatronic	tho, if i could add Text Mates project drawer to my emacs setup, i'd be super happy.
16:38	ibdknox	moogatronic, that has to exist... VIM has nerdtree
16:39	dnolen	ibdknox: nothing. TextMate shows that plenty of people weren't satisfied w/ complex IDEs
16:39	zilti	If I have a function how do I find out 1. how many arguments it takes and 2. what type the arguments are (if they're typed)?
16:39	technomancy	ibdknox: what's wrong with TM is that it can't be extended in-process
16:39	cemerick	TM is great. Having "just" a text editor doesn't cut it for real work (or, not for how I work, anyway).
16:39	moogatronic	ibdknox: i've used ECB before, but it's a bit combersome
16:39	Raynes	Sublime Text 2 is nice, but I nearly hung myself while trying to write Python plugins for it.
16:39	zilti	moogatronic: There's e.g. sr-speedbar or ECB
16:39	technomancy	you have to work through its explicit plugin interface, which by definition isn't flexible enough. no dogfooding.
16:39	dnolen	cemerick: how you is the key idea here :) you have something comfortable and that's what you like.
16:39	ibdknox	technomancy, that's fair
16:40	technomancy	moogatronic: why does it have to be visual?
16:40	ibdknox	fun fact: many of the devs on the VS Editor used VIM
16:40	moogatronic	technomancy: cause i am a weak minded former enterprise java developer!
16:40	technomancy	moogatronic: at least you're honest. =)
16:40	ibdknox	I've never bought the "you need and IDE" argument, ironically
16:40	cemerick	dnolen: Fully aware. :-)
16:41	zilti	I'd say that, with Java, you definitely need an IDE. But with languages like Clojure you don't
16:41	moogatronic	technomancy: honestly, i just get lost if my projects have more than a couple of directories worth of files.
16:41	moogatronic	my projects lately have been all over the map with respect to languages, data, etc...
16:41	moogatronic	currently i'm working on a Hadoop/Pig/Java/Scala/Python project.
16:42	technomancy	moogatronic: I use the "tree" shell command in combination with find-file-in-project
16:42	Raynes	I don't even use dired. I use 'ls', 'mv', 'rm', and 'cd'. :>
16:42	moogatronic	find-file-in-project… will investigate. =)
16:42	cemerick	I used jEdit almost exclusively up through 2005 coding Java & python, so I'm very familiar with the editor + console philosophy. It gets very tiresome after a while though.
16:42	technomancy	moogatronic: I don't really buy the notion that learning the project's layout necessarily needs to use the same UI as jumping to a file.
16:42	moogatronic	so far all the tips I get out of #clojure have been money.
16:43	moomin	Just because you don't need an IDE doesn't mean one wouldn't be nice...
16:43	technomancy	moogatronic: well, I don't even really use find-file-in-project much these days; I just work in more smaller projects that are trivial to navigate =)
16:43	technomancy	cemerick: all I know is that it was created by Slava Pestov, so I assumed it was pretty rockin' =)
16:43	moomin	e.g. refactoring to split a namespace
16:43	moogatronic	On a given day I just have to jump around a lot.. RA work, course work, actual get paid work, etc.
16:44	cemerick	technomancy: It was. Even better when paired with Verdana. :-P
16:44	moogatronic	vim has become my textmate, emacs is my happy place, and intellij makes me money.
16:45	technomancy	haha... from the #emacs channel: "Emacs continues to amaze me - even after a year of usage there are many cool features to be discovered!" / "That's like saying even after a year of listening to music i still discover new bands!"
16:47	zilti	If I have a function how do I find out 1. how many arguments it takes and 2. what type the arguments are (if they're typed)?
16:47	cemerick	moogatronic: Hopefully we can make eclipse more like emacs…happy capitalists all around. ;-)
16:48	Raynes	&(:arglists (meta #'println))
16:48	lazybot	⇒ ([& more])
16:48	technomancy	zilti: there's no way to do it from a function, you need a var. I think there's an open issue about this though.
16:48	Raynes	This only works with functions defined with defn, or functions that explicitly add arglists meta.
16:49	Raynes	And, like he said, you need the var.
16:49	zilti	And with a macro?
16:50	zilti	something like (defmacro get-arguments [function] ...)
16:50	moogatronic	is there an easy way to get dark backgrounds in eclipse yet?
16:52	jcromartie	moogatronic: are you on a Mac? Try Control-Option-Command-8 :)
16:52	jcromartie	(kidding... but not... but yeah...)
16:52	moogatronic	jcromartie: yes i know of this solution.. =)
16:52	zilti	jcromartie: Why, what does this?
16:52	moogatronic	i did actually use it for a while
16:52	moogatronic	it's just late nite coding on white backgrounds that hurt.
16:52	moogatronic	F.lux has helped a lot with that actually.
16:52	cemerick	jcromartie: That's not bad, actually.
16:53	jcromartie	yes I was going to say, moogatronic
16:53	jcromartie	F.lux is good
16:53	jcromartie	but not the total solution
16:54	moogatronic	zilti: inverse video
16:54	ibdknox	Well.. there should be lots of good discussion at the Conj about tools :)
16:54	cemerick	moogatronic: http://www.eclipsecolorthemes.org/ ?
16:54	jcromartie	it's amazing, when I hit that key combo, I can feel my eyes adjust
16:55	moogatronic	cemerick: awesome. did not exist at the time I switched to IntelliJ
16:55	moogatronic	honestly, having dark backgrounds was high on my list of reasons.. kind of lame I admit.
16:55	ibdknox	I really hate white backgrounds... so I can understand that
16:55	dnolen	moogatronic: you got stare at the damn screen all day, it better look how you want it to look ;)
16:55	jcromartie	I don't like white backgrounds
16:56	jcromartie	but I hate light-on-dark text rendering almost as much
16:56	moogatronic	dnolen: agreed. Each computer I setup will always have my programming fonts now, and proper color themes.
16:56	jcromartie	the letters are all thick
16:56	jcromartie	the sub-pixel rendering is just not right
16:56	moogatronic	<- Inconsolata fan.
16:56	ibdknox	font rendering is hard.
16:56	moogatronic	lol.= )
16:56	jcromartie	just look at the actual text in those color themes (http://www.eclipsecolorthemes.org/)
16:57	jcromartie	the light background ones look a lot better, typographically
16:57	jcromartie	Zenburn is OK
16:57	moogatronic	is that a function of the size of the text?
16:57	jcromartie	(my personal fave anyway... always count on a classic)
16:57	jcromartie	moogatronic: nope
16:58	jcromartie	moogatronic: it's just the consequences of rendering light text on a dark background... the AA is different
16:58	moogatronic	i guess that makes sense.
16:59	jcromartie	http://jcromartie.tumblr.com/post/370728317/dark-vs-light-text-smoothing-on-os-x
17:00	jcromartie	notice the light text, inverted, is actually heavier than the plain dark text
17:02	zerokarmaleft	i tried solarized light and dark, but went back to zenburn
17:02	moogatronic	jcromartie: interesting. I wonder what the long term cognitive/strain effects are of light.vs.dark and dark.vs.light, if there are any at all.
17:02	moogatronic	i'm sure someone has studied this.
17:02	jcromartie	possibly
17:03	zerokarmaleft	the highlight on solarized dark was the deal breaker
17:04	jcromartie	moogatronic: actually, light-on-dark can be more of an eye strain than dark-on-light
17:04	jcromartie	I think the key is lower overall display brightness
17:04	jcromartie	and color temperature
17:04	jcromartie	and ambient lighting
17:04	jcromartie	if the wall is as bright as the monitor in front of it, your eyes will be fine
17:05	moogatronic	and proper diet and exercise and ergonomic furnature. =)
17:05	jcromartie	heh sure
17:06	jcromartie	if you want to get really sciency abou tit
17:06	jcromartie	about it
17:06	jcromartie	you can use green text on a yellow background
17:06	jcromartie	with a serif font
17:07	bsod1	why are there some commented lines in LispReader.java like syntax-quote symbol(line 43) in clojure 1.2? I'm trying to understand how reader macros implemented in clojure
17:07	moogatronic	i need to strike a balance between looks beautiful / inspiring and hurts my face. =)
17:07	jcromartie	moogatronic: yes, minimize face-hurting where possible
17:08	moogatronic	anyone who's attening the conj a runner? (slightly ontopic…)
17:09	moogatronic	could possibly organize an unconference event as a reset-break between the conference and the other unconference events.
17:10	moogatronic	plus its like er, alan turing year next year, so theres the computational tie in.. =)
17:10	technomancy	what I want to know is when we are going to fit all these unconference events into the schedule
17:10	technomancy	seems like we need another whole day
17:10	joly	I was curious about that too; seems like there's a lot lined up
17:10	moogatronic	technomancy: I was wondering what the scheduling was going to be for those!
17:10	zippy314	When compiling a clojurescript app on an Ubutnu box, I'm getting this error: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No implementation of method: :make-reader of protocol: #'clojure.java.io/IOFactory found for class: nil. Full stack trace here: http://pastie.org/2775324. I don't see that on my dev box (a mac). Any ideas what this means? I notice that js is produced for most of the clojurescript files, but not the addition of
17:11	bsod1	whe .get on a java.reflect.Field needs a third parameter? (.get field) IllegalArgumentException but (.get field nil) works
17:11	cemerick	technomancy: after dinner, presumably. We'll have to get things aligned so that there is a minimum of conflict w.r.t. declared attendees, etc.
17:12	cemerick	Besides, who sleeps at the Conj? I certainly didn't last year. :-P
17:12	moogatronic	any decent brewpubs in the area? I usually try to make it a goal to try locally produced good beer if possible.. =)
17:12	moogatronic	I'm a homebrewer.. it's my duty.
17:13	technomancy	cemerick: yeah, no matter how late you head to bed you can't shake the feeling of "oh man, if I sleep now I'll be missing out on all kinds of cool stuff!"
17:13	moogatronic	you just need to chart your dependencey on caffeine with the half-life of caffeine in your system and dose appropriately.
17:14	cemerick	moogatronic: but how does alcohol fit into that protocol?
17:15	moogatronic	technomancy: If i would have had that foresight, I could have avoided the expense of hotels all together and just pulled a multi-all-nighters.
17:15	technomancy	moogatronic: economical! I like it.
17:15	moogatronic	cemerickl: yes, alcohol wrecks the equation.
17:15	moogatronic	at least for my system. I cant cope with the mixture of depressants and stimulants.
17:16	moogatronic	though, I consider beer to be a holy sacrament, not a depressant. =)
17:19	moogatronic	technomancy: i'm almost regretting my hotel booking now that i thnk about this more...
17:19	moogatronic	I would be pretty wrecked by the end.
17:19	moogatronic	if alive.
17:19	technomancy	but what a way to end it!
17:20	zilti	You can't stay awake 3 days in a row
17:20	technomancy	not without severe hallucinations anyway
17:20	erldave	simple question: how should I store a list of maps?, e.g. (def x {:a 1 :b 2}) (:a (first (seq (s))) ;; doesn't work
17:21	erldave	since the map entries end up appearing in the seq
17:21	bsod1	what is clojure way to build strings in a loop? (str old_string string_to_add) ?
17:21	moogatronic	zilti: yeah, and priceline wont' refund my hotel purchase anyway.
17:21	zilti	moogatronic: A win-win-situation :)
17:22	moogatronic	I could totally be that crazy dude at the conference who got arrested for running around the hotel lobby naked while battling invisble demons.
17:22	jcromartie	bsod1: build a seq of what you want to concatenate, then use clojure.string/join
17:22	jcromartie	bsod1: which internally uses a stringbuilder and an actual loop
17:22	jcromartie	but your code is better off passing a sequence to string/join
17:23	bsod1	jcromartie: thanks
17:24	cemerick	zilti: but you can crash on the roof, especially if you've been up too long enjoying moogatronic holy sacraments.
17:24	cemerick	s/moogatronic/moogatronic's
17:24	zilti	lol
17:26	erldave	should I be wrapping the maps in the list inside atoms? that seems a bit odd
17:27	TimMc	erldave: What do atoms have to do with anything?
17:27	TimMc	,'({:a 1} {:b 2 :c 3}) ; erldave
17:27	clojurebot	({:a 1} {:b 2, :c 3})
17:27	erldave	it would maybe stop (seq from reducing the type of the map to a mapentry, since the map/list of mapentries are now hidden in an atom
17:28	erldave	so if I have x and y, both maps, how do I make a list containing those two maps?
17:28	TimMc	erldave: (list x y)
17:29	erldave	ahhh, thanks
17:29	TimMc	,(first '({:a 1} {:b 2 :c 3}))
17:29	clojurebot	{:a 1}
17:31	dnolen	erldave: also unless you really want a list, why not put them in a vector?
17:31	dnolen	,[{:foo 1} {:bar 2}]
17:31	clojurebot	[{:foo 1} {:bar 2}]
17:31	erldave	sorted, I now have what I want: (vector x y) instead of (vec x y) ;; doesn't run
17:31	erldave	thanks
17:32	zilti	How are those wrapping macros ( [] and {} ) defined anyway? Are they hardwired into the language?
17:32	Raynes	&(vec '(1 2 3 4))
17:32	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 3 4]
17:32	erldave	oddly fn list doesn't appear to be in Joy of Clojure
17:32	Chousuke	zilti: yes
17:33	dnolen	erldave: you don't need to say vector, just [x y]
17:34	Chousuke	zilti: they're reader macros but reader macros are reserved for the implementation
17:34	dnolen	zilti: reader macros
17:34	zilti	Ah I see
17:35	erldave	dnolen: better, ta
17:35	Chousuke	I'd sort of like to see user-definable reader macros in clojure but since I can't think of a sane way to solve the problems they would cause I'll go with the status quo :P
17:35	technomancy	Chousuke: I never understood why reader macros couldn't be namespaced.
17:36	ibdknox_	what problems would they cause?
17:36	mdeboard	Can I have help with something rudimentary? How do I turn http://p.mattdeboard.net/fibowhat.html into a single fn?
17:36	Chousuke	technomancy: what do you do if you want to use two reader macros that happen to use the same characters?
17:37	technomancy	Chousuke: you'd declare which reader macros to use in the ns clause, and it would fail to compile if there was any overlap.
17:37	Chousuke	technomancy: that doesn't solve the clash though, that just avoids running code that makes no sense
17:37	Chousuke	you still can't use the macros together :/
17:37	zilti	That would make code much less readable
17:38	technomancy	Chousuke: well if the reader macros only apply to code in a given namespace that explicitly requires them, there would be no clash.
17:38	stuartsierra	You can get most of what you'd want reader macros for with regular macros.
17:38	ibdknox_	what reader macros would you really want?
17:38	technomancy	ibdknox_: I want regex literals that are callable
17:38	technomancy	having to use re-find for conditionals is silly
17:38	ibdknox_	technomancy: I don't understand why we don't have those anyways
17:39	technomancy	(filter #"what up" ["bunch" "of" "strings"])
17:39	ibdknox_	I completely agree
17:39	technomancy	ibdknox_: "for interop" =(
17:39	Chousuke	ibdknox_: because of clojure no-wrapping policy
17:39	ibdknox_	but barring that... I can't think of anything else I'd really want
17:39	technomancy	yeah, that's pretty much it for me. =)
17:39	Chousuke	maybe someday there will be a "interop-callable" protocol or something
17:39	hiredman	well, there are multiple strategies for getting there, each one has objections
17:39	technomancy	IFn as a protocol would solve it too, but that's also been shot down.
17:39	hiredman	the cleanest path is invokedynamic
17:40	Chousuke	and you can use Patterns as functions. I just don't know how it could be done without interfering with fast function calls.
17:40	psyllo	I like the callable regex idea.
17:40	technomancy	yeah, I have never in all my years seen Patterns used in interop scenarios
17:40	ibdknox_	I suspect everyone likes the callable regex idea
17:40	Chousuke	I like it too, if we consider only the benefits
17:40	technomancy	but I see them used as predicates all the time.
17:40	Chousuke	but lets not do that :)
17:40	technomancy	(partial re-find #"yuuuuck")
17:40	psyllo	I'd like to have reader macros in Clojure. I'm for it. Arguments about legibility don't matter to me.
17:41	ibdknox_	psyllo: for what?
17:41	psyllo	Power to the user... Lisp blurs the line between user and designer.
17:41	Chousuke	psyllo: how about arguments about fragmentation
17:41	technomancy	I don't necessarily want reader macros, I just don't understand why namespacing them doesn't address the collision objections.
17:41	dnolen	psyllo: it will probably never happen. rhickey has said as much.
17:41	Chousuke	technomancy: I suppose it just doesn't solve enough of the problem
17:42	technomancy	Chousuke: because the motivation is usually "I want it to be like CL"? =)
17:42	ibdknox_	lol
17:42	dnolen	it's doesn't blur the line between user and designer. it just encourages bad taste.
17:42	technomancy	has anyone ever used #"" for interop?
17:43	cemerick	good enough for me! :-P
17:43	Chousuke	technomancy: it solves a bit of it, but you're still left with not being able to use two reader macros from arbitrary sources if their dispatch characters clash
17:43	dnolen	the amount of awful requests for syntax in CoffeeScript is mindblowing.
17:43	ibdknox_	technomancy: nope
17:43	technomancy	Chousuke: you could say the same thing about function names
17:43	psyllo	Have reader macros fragmented CL?
17:43	Chousuke	technomancy: you can rename functions, but changing the dispatch character just creates more problems :P
17:44	ibdknox_	dnolen: haha you should've seen some of the suggestions we got for C#...
17:44	psyllo	(no they haven't)
17:44	dnolen	psyllo: CL community is too small to fragment. Their just one name among the various Lisps.
17:45	dnolen	psyllo: like it or not Clojure is the only Lisp in years to generate a community from the buzz.
17:45	Chousuke	technomancy: at best you might get to something like where , say, $ starts a custom reader macro, followed by an arbitrary character (decided at import time), followed by whatever dispatch character the custom reader macro uses :P
17:45	Chousuke	and that's getting a bit perlish
17:46	technomancy	Chousuke: I don't see why :reader [my.reader.macros :only [a b c] :rename {b l}] wouldn't work like :use.
17:47	Chousuke	technomancy: but if the dispatch character for your macro is < you probably want it to end with >. Then if you change the dispatch it gets weird
17:47	psyllo	I typically have problems with these sorts of restrictions... I tend to fall on the side of more options not less. I also understand where I typically fall on the spectrum of opinion.
17:48	Chousuke	psyllo: more options usually implies more costs
17:48	Chousuke	psyllo: in this case Rich simply decided that the benefit from reader macros does not justify the cost
17:48	technomancy	Chousuke: I see. I don't think it's insurmountable, but yeah, I don't care enough about it to solve the problem since I just want regexes to be more useful.
17:48	ibdknox_	I still haven't heard a concrete example other than the regex one
17:49	Chousuke	technomancy: yeah. You can cheat and hack the reader though if you REALLY want :P
17:49	technomancy	nope!
17:49	psyllo	technomancy: But that's exactly why you want reader macros.
17:49	Chousuke	technomancy: or you can figure out how to add a callable protocol without screwing up performance
17:49	technomancy	I mean I might consider a patch if I had conclusive proof that no Clojure user had ever used regexes in an interop situation.
17:49	psyllo	You've just tapped into a real legit reason to not have the restriction.
17:49	dnolen	psyllo: that's not a real reason.
17:49	psyllo	Oh?
17:49	technomancy	Chousuke: that's way more interesting. but probably beyond my skillset. =)
17:50	ibdknox_	once case does not justify something as scary as reader macros
17:50	Chousuke	psyllo: it's a reason, but not a good enough one.
17:50	dnolen	we're just talking about minor conveniences.
17:50	technomancy	psyllo: why not just fix the mistake in the reader?
17:50	psyllo	You're tending to want to make the decision for others, I'm tending to leave that door open.
17:50	Chousuke	psyllo: you need to make decisions
17:51	psyllo	technomancy: Why not just let the user do that?
17:51	Chousuke	psyllo: if you try to allow everything you end up with a mess
17:51	dnolen	psyllo: I'm not tending to do anything, I'm not in charge about reader.
17:51	ibdknox_	a language without opinion is useless
17:51	psyllo	Again, I understand where I fall on the spectrum of opinion in this.
17:51	Chousuke	psyllo: see: scala (tongue firmly in cheek :P)
17:51	ibdknox_	lol
17:51	psyllo	ibdknox: You're black-and-whiting the issue.
17:52	technomancy	psyllo: seems like an awful lot of work to fix a simple design flaw.
17:52	dnolen	in anycase, fortunately the world isn't black and white. There are other Lisps with different design decisions.
17:52	dnolen	and man are they fun and useful.
17:52	psyllo	... anyway it's fun to talk about because it's so fundamental to design.
17:52	Chousuke	technomancy: #"" not being callable is not a design flaw though, just an unfortunate consequence of the interop policy
17:53	technomancy	Chousuke: Rich has said that he doesn't use regexes himself, so I think it's pretty understandable that he would make a small mistake in this area of language design. =)
17:54	Raynes	Rich doesn't use regexes? My hero.
17:54	dnolen	technomancy: well he uses then in the Clojure(Script) tokenizer
17:54	dnolen	s/then/them
17:54	technomancy	dnolen: yeah, this was a couple years ago; I guess my info could be out of date.
17:54	Chousuke	And in the reader :P
17:54	eiro	hello
17:54	Chousuke	but that's java
17:54	dnolen	Chousuke: the tokenizer in the reader I meant
17:55	dnolen	Chousuke: the ClojureScript has a reader in ClojureScript that uses regexes as well.
17:55	Chousuke	I wonder if I still have my clojure reader code somewhere
17:56	Chousuke	I got it working well enough that I could compile a version of Clojure with it.
17:57	Chousuke	but not quite in good enough shape to dare propose that someone use it :P
17:58	psyllo	If Rich Hickey doesn't use regexes it's likely because the problems he's solving are better solved in some alternative way and not because you has somehow moved beyond regexes is his programming mastery.
17:58	psyllo	s/you has/he has/
18:00	Chousuke	or he doesn't solve problems that involve figuring out the content of strings :P
18:00	Raynes	I don't think anybody was implying that Rich is a God because he claims to not use regexes. ;)
18:02	psyllo	Raynes: Yeah, gotcha ;)
18:02	bsod1	is there a better way to get a string's last char than (nth str (dec (count str))) ?
18:02	Raynes	&(last "foo")
18:02	lazybot	⇒ \o
18:03	technomancy	dakrone: apparently my :insecure? branch uses connection pooling faultily.
18:03	technomancy	'nother patch comin' your way
18:03	technomancy	did you want to do general connection pooling for 0.2.3?
18:04	psyllo	bsod1: Also you typically don't want to use 'str' as a variable name since there is a function 'str'. Also interesting is 'butlast'.
18:05	bsod1	Raynes: isn't it O(n) ? I thought my solution is O(1) since we already know string's length(or don't we?)
18:06	Raynes	If he isn't using the 'str' function, it isn't necessarily bad to shadow it. I tend to avoid shadowing it in my own code just because it's such a common function that I might end up using it later and not think about the shadowing.
18:06	psyllo	Raynes: "typically don't want to use"
18:06	Raynes	I'm not the guy to talk to about performance.
18:07	Raynes	But that's how you get the last of any sequence, disregarding hacky more performant solutions that I can't come up with.
18:07	psyllo	bsod1: You might want to look at the performance of 'count' in this case.
18:07	TimMc	technomancy: The problem I see is that regexen can be used for either finding or matching.
18:08	bsod1	psyllo: yeah, strings are not counted so count is linear time on string (I think)
18:09	TimMc	I guess I would be OK with callable regex if it always used find -- I could just put in ^anchors$ if I needed full match.
18:09	bsod1	&(counted? "str")
18:09	lazybot	⇒ false
18:09	hiredman	no
18:10	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java#L509
18:10	hiredman	use count
18:10	hiredman	people always seem to think count most convert it's arg to a seq first, that is not the cast
18:11	hiredman	case
18:11	hiredman	it is fast for arrays, strings, etc
18:11	hiredman	I am sick of people using alength and such, please knock it off
18:13	psyllo	bsod1: Cool. Just counted 9k characters as a string vs seq and counting a seq was 10x slower. So, yeah.
18:13	Raynes	Or else he'll shoot lightning bolts from his fingers and call upon the forces of hell to destroy your city.
18:16	psyllo	hiredman: Piper down
18:16	hiredman	psyllo: excuse me?
18:16	Raynes	psyllo: Don't bother. :\
18:17	psyllo	:D
18:17	psyllo	Sorry, hiredman. I didn't see any mention of not using count.
18:17	psyllo	I don't make assumption about those things. I usually look at the source or just do a simple test.
18:18	psyllo	Been fun. Have a good weekend y'all
19:09	seancorfield	clj-time 0.3.2-SNAPSHOT uses Joda Time 2.0 and should be compatible with both Clojure 1.2.x and 1.3.0
19:21	moogatronic	seancorfield: joda is awesome. I definitely need to check out clj-time.
19:22	moogatronic	it saved me on a few giant ugly java projects so far.
19:22	technomancy	does it still not have a generic "figure out how this time string is formatted and parse it" function?
19:22	mdeboard	Hm so I just installed Leiningen on a new machine (ubuntu 11.10), have the executable on my path, but when I go to clojure-jack-in, it said "lein: command not found"
19:23	technomancy	having to pick a formatter up front is annoying
19:23	mdeboard	When I go to terminal emulator, even, and type `lein` it's runs properly.
19:23	mdeboard	Anyone have any idea why?
19:23	moogatronic	technomancy: not sure. I think not though. Its main feature, as far as java is concerned, is that it has an API that was not designed by random people in mental hospitals.
19:23	technomancy	moogatronic: oh absoultely; it's a huge improvement over anything in the JDK
19:24	technomancy	moogatronic: I've considered having Leiningen issue a warning if it sees any reference to java.util.Date.
19:24	aperiodic	technomancy: as far as I'm aware, you still have to specify a formatter upfront
19:24	duck1123	there's DateTime/parse, but I'm not sure how far that goes
19:24	technomancy	mdeboard: must be a $PATH issue
19:24	moogatronic	technomancy: not a bad idea. =)
19:24	mdeboard	technomancy: Well, color me puzzled :\|
19:24	hiredman	mdeboard: what happens if you try and run lein in eshell?
19:25	mdeboard	hiredman: Command not found
19:25	hiredman	or M-x shell-command
19:25	mdeboard	same
19:25	hiredman	right, so for some reason or other emacs has a different idea of PATH
19:25	hiredman	how did you start it?
19:25	mdeboard	Mmkay. Huh.
19:25	hiredman	most likely fork()ed from somewhere that didn't read some shell config somewhere
19:26	technomancy	actually it should be able to figure it out by launching a shell
19:26	technomancy	(defvar clojure-swank-command (if (locate-file "lein" exec-path) "lein jack-in %s" "echo \"lein jack-in %s\" \| sh"))
19:26	technomancy	given a new enough clojure-mode
19:26	technomancy	that may not have made it into a release yet though
19:27	hiredman	why would sh have a differnt idea of PATH there?
19:27	technomancy	hmm... does sh need a special flag to source profile?
19:27	technomancy	.profile, rather
19:27	technomancy	man
19:28	technomancy	if only unix had a standard user-writable directory on the $PATH by default. ಠ_ಠ
19:28	hiredman	most likely his PATH is set in some other shell specific file, which is why it isn't seen by emacs
19:28	Raynes	technomancy: That's in the latest release.
19:28	Raynes	I saw it when I was playing with defcustom.
19:28	technomancy	Raynes: ok, must be that sh doesn't honor profile when launched like that.
19:30	technomancy	seems like sh -l will source .profile on dash
19:30	mdeboard	hiredman: yeah the lein executable is on a path set in .bashrc
19:30	technomancy	anyone with a classic sh want to confirm that's portable?
19:30	technomancy	mdeboard: ah yeah
19:30	technomancy	that belongs in ~/.profile instead
19:30	mdeboard	I see
19:31	Raynes	Really? I put all my PATH mods and such in .bashrc.
19:31	mdeboard	Is that a change?
19:31	mdeboard	in emacs 24/ubuntu 11.19
19:31	mdeboard	11.10*
19:31	technomancy	no, .bashrc has always been for bash-specific settings
19:31	mdeboard	eh never had a problem before
19:31	Raynes	Good to know.
19:31	mdeboard	but I'll give it a go
19:31	hiredman	meh
19:32	hiredman	I would just use some thing like (setenv "PATH" ...)
19:32	technomancy	mdeboard: actually before you change it
19:32	technomancy	can you try (setq clojure-swank-command "echo \"lein jack-in %s\" \| sh -l") ?
19:33	technomancy	wait that won't actually help here since it's dash
19:33	mdeboard	lol
19:34	technomancy	but just for the record, would (setq clojure-swank-command "echo \"lein jack-in %s\" \| bash -l") do it?
19:35	Raynes	technomancy: Did you know that slamhound makes Java think that your code is a Swing application?
19:35	technomancy	maybe "echo \"lein jack-in %s\" \| $SHELL -l" would be better?
19:35	Raynes	I'm not sure why, but whenever I use it, I get a Swing dock icon.
19:35	Raynes	(on a mac)
19:35	technomancy	heh
19:35	technomancy	well it does preload every namespace on the classpath
19:35	technomancy	so it could be triggering latent functionality in your codebase?
19:35	technomancy	or does it happen to empty skeleton applications too?
19:36	Raynes	Not in all of them.
19:36	Raynes	I've ran it against a bunch of applications.
19:40	daaku	what is the right way to trigger evaluating a seq returned form map (my deftest has a single map form)
19:40	mdeboard	well, shit, even if i run it from command line
19:41	mdeboard	:-\|
19:41	mdeboard	er
19:41	mdeboard	even if I start emacs from the command line, that is.
19:41	technomancy	mdeboard: oh? that's really weird.
19:43	mdeboard	hiredman: Can you re-enter the elisp command you suggested?
19:43	technomancy	is that emacs launched from bash where you've confirmed the same bash instance can launch it?
19:43	hiredman	(setenv "PATH" ...)
19:45	technomancy	heh; the way "lein ring" launches a swing web browser is adorable.
19:46	ibdknox	daaku: ##(doc dorun)
19:46	lazybot	⇒ "([coll] [n coll]); When lazy sequences are produced via functions that have side effects, any effects other than those needed to produce the first element in the seq do not occur until the seq is consumed. dorun can be used to force any effects. Walks through the ... https://gist.github.com/1323858
19:46	daaku	ibdknox: thanks!
19:46	ibdknox	or if you need the results
19:46	ibdknox	,(doc doall)
19:46	clojurebot	"([coll] [n coll]); When lazy sequences are produced via functions that have side effects, any effects other than those needed to produce the first element in the seq do not occur until the seq is consumed. doall can be used to force any effects. Walks through the successive nexts of the seq, retains the head and returns it, thus causing the entire seq to reside in memory at one time."
19:47	daaku	dorun worked great
19:48	dnolen	support for js literals in ClojureScript, https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/compare/37-support-for-js-literals
19:48	dnolen	who wants it?
20:11	mdeboard	So, I think now the problem is that I don't even have "jack-in" as a command. I'm missing swank-clojure, yeah?
20:12	mdeboard	don't answer that, my idiocy is rhetorical.
20:12	Raynes	$dict rhetorical
20:12	lazybot	Raynes: adjective: Of or relating to rhetoric.
20:12	Raynes	Man, I hate when he does that.
20:12	mdeboard	Yeah, me no talk good
20:12	Raynes	$dict rhetoric
20:12	lazybot	Raynes: noun: The art or study of using language effectively and persuasively.
20:13	mdeboard	ME AM BAD TALK
20:14	moogatronic	mdeboard: Yesterday I didn't have jack-in either. My clojure mode was just old.
20:14	mdeboard	Eh once I installed swank-clojure I was rhetorical
20:14	mdeboard	Working fine, now
20:14	mdeboard	the lesson is to never upgrade
20:14	mdeboard	anything
20:15	moogatronic	nah, i did a emacs 23-24 upgrade yesterday, and everything is working.
20:15	moogatronic	well, everything that i've tried so far. =)
20:15	mdeboard	This is all fresh/clean
20:15	mdeboard	so, there
20:15	moogatronic	=)
20:16	moogatronic	well, my upgrade method involved porting over my previous settings.el to my current one, etc.
20:18	mdeboard	got me
21:41	jacobsen	Hi all, Clojure on Mac question from a total clojure newbie here — I'm following along with Stuart Halloway's "Programming Clojure" book. At one point there is an import: (use '[clojure.contrib.str-utils :only (re-split)]) … which barfs on my MacPorts install: FileNotFoundException Could not locate clojure/contrib/str_utils__init.class or clojure/contrib/str_utils.clj on classpath: clojure.lang.RT.load (RT.java:430) — any
22:02	aperiodic	jacobsen: are you using leiningen or cake?
22:07	jacobsen	hi aperiodic, I wasn't using either - just "clj" plus the REPL
22:09	aperiodic	jacobsen: i'd really recommend using one or the other. they'll automate things like managing the classpath and fetching dependencies, which will make your life much easier
22:11	aperiodic	jacobsen: leiningen seems to be more popular (it's what I have experience with), and it's available through macports (as well as brew)
22:12	jacobsen	aperiodic: 'lein' followed by 'lien repl' followed by the previously failing command worked — thanks!
22:13	aperiodic	jacobsen: see what i mean? ;)
22:13	jacobsen	:-)
22:13	aperiodic	glad to help!
22:13	jacobsen	thanks again
22:17	jacobsen	should 'lein test' on a brand-new, unmodified project fail?
22:20	aperiodic	yes, it should fail with an error message that no tests have been written
22:21	jacobsen	Cool, thanks
22:39	jacobsen	Next question — lein test with only a single trivial test takes 6 seconds to execute on a MacBook Pro — seems slow to me, is this typical (I assume this is mostly the JVM overhead?) — how are people dealing w/ this for TDD?
22:39	technomancy	jacobsen: most people run tests in an existing session
22:39	technomancy	either via swank or the repl
22:39	technomancy	jacobsen: you can improve boot time by switching to the client JVM, but I'm not sure how to do that on macosecks.
22:40	jacobsen	I'm interested in setting up Eclipse to auto-run tests when I save files (something I do in Python, which is quite handy for TDD) — I'll have a look at Swank
22:40	technomancy	the other option is lein interactive. it's not terribly polished, but it's often better than relaunching the whole process.
22:41	technomancy	if you're using eclipse it's probably best to just call (run-tests) in the repl
22:41	technomancy	or if there's a way to trigger it on save that would be cool too
22:42	jacobsen	maybe i'll take that on as a Clojure learning project — watch for save times in files and auto-run tests when they update
22:47	technomancy	feel free to crib from clojure-test-mode
22:47	technomancy	(you would have to tie into the reporting mechanism for that, which I've already implemented in clojure-test-mode)
22:47	jacobsen	I'll take a look, thanks
22:48	jacobsen	Hmm, maybe I'll go back to Emacs for this stuff — seems like the center of mass is (unsurprisingly) there rather than in IDEs
22:54	jacobsen	signing off, thanks to technomancy and aperiodic for the help
23:15	seancorfield	any windows / emacs folks around?
23:32	ThreeCups	How can I print a ratio to look like n.nnn?
23:33	archaic	whats a good way to alter err redirection using clojure-jack-in from the swank buffer to the clojure repl?
23:44	callen	technomancy: never mind, answer me here if you do so at all.
23:49	technomancy	callen: yeah, clojure is a library and not really meant to be and end-user application. most of your direct interaction comes through leiningen on the command-line and slime in emacs.
23:50	technomancy	archaic: for now you can use alter-var-root. the next version of swank should do it for you.
23:51	ThreeCups	FYI, I ended up using the (double) function to cast my ratio
23:51	technomancy	callen: there's a bug in the current ubuntu apt package, so installing by hand as per the readme is your best bet
23:51	callen	technomancy: I'll have to re-familiarize with "jack-in". Thanks, that's the use-case/design I thought I was supposed to follow.
23:51	callen	technomancy: debian user, but I never trust apt packages for this sort of thing anyway.
23:52	technomancy	callen: yeah, apt and the JVM don't get along so well
23:52	technomancy	callen: the swank-clojure and leiningen readmes are the best places to start.
23:52	callen	technomancy: shanks.
23:54	technomancy	heh; the debian version of lein actually has the fix, ubuntu just screwed it up in oneric.