#clojure – 2011-10-27

2011-10-27

00:00	sdeobald	duck1123: Awesome. Thanks.
00:02	mrh0057	cemerick: I really don't like the closure set of libraries but I bet closure api is probably not going to change munch with google heavy investment in GWT and Dart.
00:16	mdh	any reason why clojurescript wouldn't compile this: (defn f [x] (case x true (recur false) false nil))
00:18	michaelr525	,(defn f [x] (case x true (recur false) false nil))
00:18	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
00:19	mdh	denied!
00:19	michaelr525	err
00:19	michaelr525	does clojure compile this?
00:19	mdh	nicely
00:20	michaelr525	what
00:20	michaelr525	's
00:20	michaelr525	the syntax
00:20	michaelr525	for the other bot?
00:20	michaelr525	&(defn f [x] (case x true (recur false) false nil))
00:20	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
00:21	Raynes	Neither one of them are stupid enough to allow that, unfortunately.
00:21	michaelr525	you mean smart enough to be stupid enough?
00:25	michaelr525	there has to be M-x clojure command that just starts a repl
00:28	duck1123	michaelr525: this is what I use https://gist.github.com/1318774
00:28	duck1123	I by no means claim the binding is good
00:32	amalloy	duck1123: C-c <single letter> is reserved for your personal use
00:32	amalloy	i use C-c s for slime-connect
00:33	amalloy	michaelr525: you can easily test this by not using defn
00:33	amalloy	&((fn f [x] (case x true (recur false) false nil)) true)
00:33	lazybot	⇒ nil
00:33	duck1123	I know, the <f9> is a historical thing. I've tried binding it to other letters, but I'm used to it now
00:34	duck1123	I have C-c s bound to slime selector. C-c s r ir my repl
00:35	michaelr525	for this to work there has to be a swank instance running, no?
00:35	amalloy	michaelr525: yes, which is what M-x clojure-jack-in is for
00:36	duck1123	yes, if you want it to start swank for you, that's what clojure-jack-in is for. I always have a screen session bound to F12
00:36	amalloy	duck1123: a screen session of what?
00:37	duck1123	I have GNU screen running in a terminal in Guake. (hides shows on F12)
00:37	amalloy	i was getting more at: what does this have to do with slime/swank
00:38	duck1123	My point was more that I almost always have a running swank session in the terminal
00:38	duck1123	I guess it really all depends on what type of apps you're writing
00:42	michaelr525	amalloy: but to run clojure-jack-in you have to be in a project
00:43	michaelr525	and i just want to start a repl - see what i mean?
00:43	amalloy	meh
00:43	michaelr525	probably not so hard to implement
00:43	duck1123	but it's one of those things that really shouldn't be encouraged
00:44	michaelr525	why?
00:44	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
00:44	duck1123	it causes people too many problems that they wouldn't have if they just created a project
00:46	michaelr525	i guess you are right but this is an implementation detail :)
00:46	duck1123	"just create a repl" raises the question of which version? Any contrib libraries, any other libraries. lein new does 90% of it anyway
00:46	michaelr525	and i just want to start a repl
00:46	duck1123	classpaths are hard. let's go shopping
00:47	amalloy	clojurebot: The classpath is hard. Let's go shopping!
00:47	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
00:49	technomancy	michaelr525: if you don't want any deps you can do ~/.lein/bin/swank-clojure followed by M-x slime-connect
00:50	technomancy	as soon as you want to add deps you should start a project though
00:50	michaelr525	cool
00:51	michaelr525	how do i bind it to F12 in emacs?
00:51	duck1123	(global-set-key (kbd "<f12>") 'slime-connect)
00:51	Iceland_jack	michaelr525: (global-set-key (.. damn
00:51	duck1123	fair warning, F12 don't go through ssh
00:52	duck1123	err.. fkeys
01:49	lancepantz	is anyone aware of any comet / long polling implementations in clojure?
01:52	michaelr525	lancepantz: maybe websockets with aleph
01:53	lancepantz	i actually already have a websocket implementation
01:53	lancepantz	they don't support websockets
01:53	lancepantz	fair enough though, those details are just getting ironed out
02:47	Knekkebjoern	I have a list (a b c) . Is there a simple way to stringify it into "(a b c)" ?
02:47	Knekkebjoern	alternatively, how can I serialize and deserialize code/data easily?
02:48	raek	Knekkebjoern: use pr-str and read-string
02:48	Knekkebjoern	raek: thanks!
02:48	raek	,(pr-str (range 5))
02:48	clojurebot	"(0 1 2 3 4)"
02:48	raek	,(read-string "(0 1 2 3 4)")
02:48	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4)
02:49	raek	(as you might have discovered, 'str' does not do the right thing if you want to serialize data)
02:52	Knekkebjoern	it does not
03:02	sploop	before I implement a redundant fn, I wanted to check with you guys to see if there is a library fn for extracting values from a nested map, where the keys form a path. Anyone know if that exists?
03:03	sploop	something like (get-path {:people {:name "bill"}} [:people :name])) -> "bill"
03:05	ejackson	sploop: try (-> mymap :k1 :k2 :k3)
03:05	sploop	thrush it through
03:06	ejackson	yup
03:06	terom	,(get-in {:people {:name "bill"}} [:people :name])
03:06	sploop	hadn't thought of that, nice.
03:06	clojurebot	"bill"
03:06	sploop	awesome, thanks. I knew there had to be something in core already...
03:23	amalloy	sploop: there's not much redundant to implement, though. get-in is just (reduce get m ks)
03:30	Blkt	good morning everyone
03:31	sploop	amalloy: yeah, that's basically what I did on the first cut, but I'm real sticky about trying to use what appears to be idiomatic. If the concept of tracing a path through a nested associative data structure is agreed tobe (get-in), then I'll defer
03:32	sploop	Blkt: good morning
03:49	mindbender1	please what problem does parallel programming and concurrency solve?
03:50	Chousuke	mindbender1: the problem of being able to utilise multiple separate processing units.
03:50	Fossi	mindbender1: was that a rethorical question?
03:50	Chousuke	mindbender1: and/or being able to perform tasks simultaneously without interrupting either one.
03:51	mindbender1	I've read stuart's book, chouser's book , etc I can't just get my head around it
03:51	mindbender1	Chousuke: that's in a multi processor enviroment
03:51	mindbender1	?
03:52	Chousuke	mindbender1: it can be, but it's not limited to just that.
03:52	mindbender1	So do I have to worry about not implementing it in my codes?
03:53	Chousuke	depends on the problem you're solving. Though in general it's good to at least consider concurrency issues when you code
03:53	mindbender1	Where can I get good materials on dead brain examples of concurrency application?
03:53	Chousuke	and since individual processors are unlikely to get significantly faster, not writing parallel code is ignoring a source of performance
03:54	mindbender1	ok
03:54	Chousuke	concurrency and parallelism are not easy, but Clojure provides you with good tools... At least better than most languages :P
03:55	mindbender1	Chousuke: I'll be glad to experience those first hand
03:55	Chousuke	I think nowadays the most common example of concurrency is in UI code though
03:55	raek	mindbender1: clojure was designed to make the step from non-concurrent to concurrent simple. basically, the style you are forced to write code in in clojure makes it fairly simple to make that step
03:55	mindbender1	Chousuke due to multiple events?
03:56	mindbender1	raek: ok
03:56	Chousuke	you want to be able to update the UI and react to input while doing processing on some data without interrupting the data processing
03:56	Chousuke	so you need concurrency
03:56	Chousuke	if you have a single thread then your UI simply will not work while any processing is going on
03:56	Chousuke	and your users will complain
03:57	mindbender1	But I rarely see that happening with most UIs I've experienced
03:57	raek	in "traditional" programming languages, programs do not "just work" after adding more threads the way they can in Clojure
03:57	Chousuke	that's because most UI toolkits nowadays force you to do UI operations on a separate thread
03:58	mindbender1	raek: So Clojure makes multi-threading easy with concurrency tools?
03:58	Chousuke	there's concurrency going on though the inattentive programmer might not notice (and consequently is likely to write broken code due to false assumptions.)
03:59	pyr	hi
03:59	Chousuke	mindbender1: multi-threading is never easy, but Clojure's tools are powerful
03:59	pyr	are there release notes for sub libraries
03:59	pyr	i wonder what's changed in tools.logging 0.2.3
03:59	mindbender1	Chousuke: so that means clojure makes it easy?
03:59	Chousuke	mindbender1: and immutable data structures remove the main worry in writing concurrent code, which is accidental modification of global state
04:00	Chousuke	mindbender1: I'm wary of the word "easy"
04:00	Chousuke	mindbender1: I don't think it can ever be easy no matter how good your tools are
04:00	mindbender1	Chousuke: not as in not thinking
04:01	raek	mindbender1: Clojure makes the concurrency bit (multiple "actors" that need to modify common resources) simpler by eleminating unrestricted mutation
04:01	mindbender1	Chousuke: what are the kind of things you worry about when doing concurrency?
04:02	Chousuke	mindbender1: two concurrent threads accessing the same (mutable) data without synchronisation mainly
04:02	mindbender1	raek: please just a real life example will do
04:02	raek	mindbender1: traditionally: locking. Clojure as another approach than locking
04:03	raek	mindbender1: say you want to modify multiple collections in a complex manner atomically
04:03	raek	this is hard to get right with locks
04:03	mindbender1	raek: ok
04:03	Chousuke	mindbender1: Clojure has several datatypes called references that are mutable containers for immutable data.
04:04	mindbender1	Chousuke: yes I'm following
04:04	Chousuke	the difference between references and plain mutable data is that references have strictly defined APIs/behaviour for concurrent access
04:05	raek	the most basic example would be to have two accounts and an operation that moves money from one to the other. when you observe the account you want the amount of the transfered money to either be in account A or B, but never in both or none
04:05	Chousuke	different references have different semantics (for different usecases)
04:06	mindbender1	Chousuke: understood
04:07	Chousuke	mindbender1: in most languages, all you have is a single kind of "reference" (direct access to the object) which is unmanaged and can be mutated at any time
04:07	raek	in traditional programming languages you have to remember to lock the accounts. if you forget it your program just behaves strangely sometimes.
04:07	mindbender1	raek: ok
04:08	raek	in clojure, it's as simple as (def a1 (ref 100)) (def a2 (ref 200)) (defn transfer [src dest amount] (dosync (alter src - amount) (alter dest + amount)))
04:09	raek	every access (read or write) to a ref in a transaction will happen atomically
04:09	sploop	not unlike a database
04:09	Chousuke	I prefer not putting dosyncs inside functions
04:09	Chousuke	keeps them explicit at the top level
04:10	mindbender1	raek: (dosync) takes care of that right?
04:10	raek	mindbender1: yes
04:11	mindbender1	raek: so what are the selling point for refs
04:12	Chousuke	mindbender1: it establishes a transaction that lasts until its scope ends. if you do (dosync (transfer foo bar 50) (transfer bar zonk 50)) then both of the transfers must succeed or neither does
04:12	mindbender1	Chousuke: where would you rather have (dosync)?
04:12	Chousuke	mindbender: outside the transfer function
04:12	raek	mindbender1: Rich Hickey (the creator of Clojure) gave a presentation on why these things matter and what problem Clojure solves: http://blip.tv/clojure/clojure-concurrency-819147
04:13	Chousuke	mindbender1: it's dynamic so having a dosync inside transfer won't affect my example, but if you forget the dosync and it's not in transfer, you get an error
04:13	raek	(I agree with Chousuke about the dosync placement)
04:14	Chousuke	mindbender1: if you know anything about sql, refs give you similar transactions except for data in memory.
04:14	mindbender1	Chousuke: exactly what I was thinking
04:15	mindbender1	more like constraints
04:15	Chousuke	mindbender1: in addition to refs there's another reference type called atom that just gives you an atomic read operation and atomic update. no synchronisation
04:16	Chousuke	it's good for eg. incrementing counters without worry about race conditions
04:16	mindbender1	Chousuke: please code sample
04:16	mindbender1	for atom
04:17	Chousuke	(def a (atom 0)) then do from as many threads as you want: (swap! a inc) ; a's value will stay correct even if two threads do the inc operation exactly at the same time
04:18	Chousuke	which is not true for uncontrolled mutation :)
04:18	Fossi	i guess it's harder to understand these solutions if you don't understand the problems
04:18	Chousuke	maybe
04:18	Chousuke	I don't really know a good tutorial to issues with concurrency :/
04:19	mindbender1	Chousuke: that's why I had to ask here
04:19	Chousuke	At one point I envisioned starting a blog or something where I write short essays/tutorials about various problems and how Clojure helps solve them
04:19	Chousuke	but I never got around to it :P
04:19	mindbender1	I want to see the problem and I want to see the solution according to Fossi
04:20	Fossi	basically if you don't have locks and such thread A reads for example 0
04:20	mindbender1	Chousuke: I'll be glad about that
04:20	Fossi	thin the threads get swapped and thread B is on
04:20	Fossi	it reads 0, increases, so the counter is 1
04:21	Fossi	then the other thread will write 1 as well
04:21	Chousuke	since it has already read "0"
04:21	Fossi	there's gotta be some graphs about this on the intertubez, but i also lacked the mojo to find them :>
04:21	Chousuke	and in the end you end up with the value 1 in the counter instead of the correct 2
04:23	mindbender1	Chousuke: did such problems burn you at any point in time?
04:24	Chousuke	not yet, fortunately. I haven't written very complicated multithreaded code.
04:26	Chousuke	but if I ever have the need to, I hope I'll be able to use Clojure :P
04:27	mindbender1	What language do you use mostly?
04:28	raek	mindbender1: you might want to browse around for explanations of race condition bugs. this class of bugs is especially nasty... :-)
04:28	Chousuke	Lately I haven't written much code at all. :/ need to get back into programming
04:28	Chousuke	as well as finish my studies :P
04:29	mindbender1	raek: ok
04:29	mindbender1	Chousuke: ok
04:30	mindbender1	raek: I remember looking up something on race conditions but couldn't get the hang of it..
04:30	Fossi	mindbender1: even though most problems here at my work are inherently easy to paralellize (webpage requests) you sometimes need to deal with such problems
04:30	Fossi	and yes they are a big pain in the ass
04:30	mindbender1	I'll try again... I need to be sure I leave no stones unturned
04:31	Fossi	because they alse happen "randomly"
04:31	Fossi	and are veary hard to find
04:31	mindbender1	Fossi: what kind of issue does it result in.. downtime?
04:31	Fossi	all kinds of things, sometimes downtimes
04:32	Fossi	if the state of your application gets thrown into a state you didn't expect, that could happen
04:32	raek	mindbender1: race conditions often result in incorrect behaviour of the code and are especially hard to reproduce in tests
04:33	Fossi	mostly it's things like wrong orders, screwed up data in the database, all kinds of things really
04:33	raek	since they depend on timing
04:33	mindbender1	raek: please more example situation
04:33	Fossi	it can happen that a process begins to run wild of not programmed defensively enough and fill up the harddrive or such
04:33	mindbender1	Fossi: ok
04:33	Fossi	then you can be in trouble as well
04:34	Fossi	take a logging system for exampre
04:34	Fossi	if you have 2 shop instances and write values into them that you wannt to aggregate
04:34	Fossi	if you do that in a bad way and screw up a downtime could occur
04:35	Fossi	or at least you could loose all your data
04:35	raek	mindbender1: here is an article about race conditions from a security perspective: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-sprace/index.html
04:35	clgv	I have a collection of items that I parsed from a file that represents a table with 4 columns. it's a really ugly copy so I used string/split with \n\t and space. if all columns would be filled I could use (partition 4 %) to get the table. but some rows have only the first column filled. what is the easiest way to do that with standard clojure operations? is there one? otherwise I have to fall back to loop-recur...
04:36	Chousuke	mindbender1: traditional bugs are "easy" because they're just some part of the program not doing what it's supposed to do. race conditions are nasty because all parts of the program might be completely correct by themselves, but because of concurrency they might end up doing their thing on some bit of data at the same time, and you end up with the wrong result.
04:37	mindbender1	Fossi: do you think clojure helps avoid these problems completely or to some degree?
04:37	Fossi	the biggest problem arising from such bugs is most of the time imho not the direct result, but also the aftermath it causes
04:38	Fossi	because if such a bug leaves your application in a state you didn't expect to ever occur lots of other things go to hell
04:38	Fossi	especially with mostly mutable languages like java
04:38	mindbender1	Fossi: that sounds scary
04:38	Fossi	and it's very hald to find out what caused the problem in the first place
04:38	Fossi	since it's most likely not reproducible
04:39	Chousuke	mindbender1: immutable data does away with most of those problems. if you work with immutable data there is no way you will ever modify it concurrently and thus you can run as much concurrent code as you want :P
04:39	raek	Fossi: functional programming with immutable data is always threadsafe
04:39	Fossi	it is. there is lots of safeguarding you have to do to avoid that in a classical business java app
04:39	mindbender1	Fossi: because such things may be triggered by complex events which may not be repeatable?
04:40	Fossi	yes, and not all the time. take for example the counter problem above
04:40	Chousuke	mindbender1: immutable data also removes worry from single-threaded programming too
04:40	Fossi	it might be the counter for your database connection
04:40	raek	mindbender1: yes, they are triggered by certain complex interleavings of events
04:40	Chousuke	mindbender1: you will never have to worry about what a function does to your data :)
04:40	Fossi	so if you only have 5 connections to the db at any time, you loose connections one by one
04:40	Fossi	so what happens next, is that the webservers have more traffic
04:40	mindbender1	Chousuke: that sounds interesting
04:41	Fossi	because they have to wait longer for the database
04:41	mindbender1	I'm such a believer in modular programming
04:41	Fossi	then the loadbalancer fails or something and your site is down
04:41	Chousuke	mindbender1: a pure function is the ultimate in modular programming
04:41	Fossi	now try to find that error that caused the problem in the first place
04:41	Chousuke	mindbender1: it depends only on its arguments and nothing else.
04:41	mindbender1	Fossi: I'm following
04:41	Fossi	you wan't be looking in your db code
04:41	Fossi	*won't
04:42	mindbender1	Chousuke: exactly.. that how functions should behave.. like slaves
04:42	Fossi	then even if you somehow find out that that must have been the problem, you don't know why it happened
04:42	Fossi	because most of the time everything is fine
04:43	Fossi	it only happens if two webserver try to make/release a new connection to your database
04:43	Fossi	which will of course be mostly during deployments
04:43	mindbender1	Chousuke: but it seems not everyone share such views
04:43	Fossi	then you start questioning your new features nistead etc pp
04:43	Fossi	so it can take days to find such a problem
04:44	mindbender1	Fossi: that leads to been inefficient with time
04:44	mindbender1	which I hate
04:45	Fossi	and downtime might be worse
04:45	Fossi	:)
04:45	mindbender1	hmmm
04:46	Fossi	clojure makes it easier to get things like this right in the first place
04:47	Fossi	and having mostly immutable objects helps much as well
04:47	Fossi	because errors/bad state don't spread so wide
04:47	mindbender1	Fossi: I see the point
04:47	Fossi	then, i haven't coded nearly as big systems with clojure as i have with java
04:47	Fossi	but it feels much better
04:48	mindbender1	raek: any link to where I could download that hickey's presentation?
04:55	raek	mindbender1: I don't know if blip.tv have download links...
04:56	raek	I'm not aware of any other locations for that video
04:56	mindbender1	raek: they don't
04:56	mindbender1	I need to get this video on my hard disk
04:59	AWizzArd\|work	Anyone here who works with Artifactory + Leiningen?
05:04	ibdknox_	~anyone
05:04	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
05:07	thorwil	i recently switched to ubuntu 11-10. trying to run my appengine-magic project, i get http 500, "Directory does not exist: /media/sda4/app_engine/tlog-clj-gae/file:/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/jre/lib/ext/pulse-java.jar!/../war"
05:08	thorwil	a search so far suggests that pulse-java.jar has to do with pulseaudio
05:11	thorwil	i have no need for pusleaudio support. any ideas how i either get that missing jar / get it to be found if present, or make it work without?
05:11	AWizzArd\|work	ibdknox_: this "anyone" does not apply in this case. What the bot replied is just personal experience of some people, not a law of nature.
05:11	ibdknox_	AWizzArd\|work: huh?
05:12	thorwil	laws of nature are just personal experiences of a whole lot of people
05:13	ibdknox_	Seems to apply... you didn't ask a question that has any useful answer
05:13	ibdknox_	the best you'd get is "yes"
05:14	Fossi	maybe that's what he wanted to know :>
05:15	ibdknox_	perhaps :)
05:18	thorwil	/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/jre/lib/ext/pulse-java.jar does exist
05:19	thorwil	i have not the slightest clue how that monstrosity of a path "/media/sda4/app_engine/tlog-clj-gae/file:/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/jre/lib/ext/pulse-java.jar!/../war" comes into being
05:44	thorwil	so on starting the server, the following hierarchy is created in my project dir, if not already present: http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/498911/
06:39	fliebel	To those of you writing books in LaTeX: is that MacTeX really the way to go? It looks old and big.
06:41	ejackson	fliebel: i just emacs it
06:41	ejackson	C-c C-c compiles w/ pdflatex, open that in Preview and it keeps up to date with the pdf. Happy Days.
06:42	fliebel	ejackson: emacs? it really is an complete os
06:42	fliebel	so you do need to install pdflatex.
06:42	ejackson	i do, but you can get away without, the C-c C-c will turn it into a dvi
06:43	ejackson	emacs can view that inline, but ultimately you want a pdf anyway so I don't muck about
06:44	fliebel	the thing is, pfdlatex is part of that 1gb mactext thing.
06:45	ejackson	hmm, I'm sure there are other ways to get it, can't recall offhand though
06:45	ejackson	pdflatex way precedes mactex
06:49	fliebel	everything seems to point back to mactext or tex live
06:52	ejackson	ugh... just install the hairball to get Mac working binaries, but work in emacs. Whats a gig between friends ?
06:52	ejackson	or at least, that's what my lazy self would do
06:57	fliebel	ejackson: Yea, I'm downloading the gb now. I wish I had fiber internet.
06:58	ejackson	Hah. raw nerve with me right now, been unable to convince my ISP to lay it down my driveway. Its on the road, but I'm too far from that road...
06:59	ejackson	right now enjoying fabulous 1Mbps intertweets.
07:01	ejackson	fliebel: whatcha writing ?
07:02	fliebel	ejackson: I have a friend who worked for my ISP. He said that if I;d dig a hole from Deventer to Loenen, he'd but a cable in it. :(
07:03	fliebel	ejackson: I'm trying to compile thinking forth for kindle.
07:03	ejackson	nice one.
07:03	ejackson	you been reading Fogus' blogs then :P
07:03	fliebel	ejackson: Yes, but I learned about Forth pre-perlis
07:04	fliebel	The trouble is that I emailed the maintainer, and he was like "yea, lets make a kindle version", but then he did it with very small print.
07:05	ejackson	I guess doesn't compile to .mobi ?
07:05	fliebel	Either I don;t understand LaTeX or we don;t understand each other.
07:05	fliebel	no, PDF
07:05	ejackson	crapola
07:05	fliebel	so i said I read about latex2html, bt he said it wasn;t possible.
07:05	ejackson	oh no, you don't want to do that, ugliness results
07:06	fliebel	And in his signature, it says "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
07:06	ejackson	lol
07:06	ejackson	once you have TeX setup it'll be trivial to increase the font size for the pdf
07:06	fliebel	oh, so what do you suggest? Just make the PDF work?
07:07	fliebel	he muttered something about the text size being connected to some other things that'd break, but I'll see
07:08	ejackson	sounds like you're on the right track. Get Latex, alter the font size tag, and see what happens :)
07:08	ejackson	LaTeX is one of my favourite things, its fabulous.
07:09	fliebel	I probably don't do it justice by looking at it as verbose markdown.
07:10	ejackson	true statement.
07:48	andrewclegg	is there a clojure equivalent of python's defaultdict?
07:48	andrewclegg	i.e. a map that will instantiate a key with a default value on first read on an unknown key?
07:49	andrewclegg	I guess that's hard to reconcile with immutable structures
07:50	ejackson	andrewclegg: only in the special case of nil :P
07:57	licenser	hmm anyone familiar with clojureQL here?
07:59	ejackson	licenser: somewhat
07:59	licenser	:) I noticed that I start running into huge problems as soon as I get past a very simple query and I wonder if it is me doing something wrong or clojureql just not being that mature yet?
08:00	ejackson	there are some niggles, but I have got some pretty huge queries working.
08:02	licenser	my main problem is 'in' and functions in general it makes a huge mess I needed to write half my query with hand which kind of takes the fun out of clojureql :(
08:03	licenser	https://gist.github.com/f8a9496b3173dffc62c2 <- that is what I run into
08:05	ejackson	hmm, I construct those as where ... or ... or ... or....
08:05	ejackson	not the nicest
08:07	ejackson	a la https://gist.github.com/1319377
08:08	licenser	but that isn't really nice :P
08:08	ejackson	i know
08:09	licenser	I think I stick with my in
08:10	ejackson	not really nice either :p
08:11	clgv	is there no (in ... [min max])?
08:11	licenser	no not in the clojure way but the SQL that comes out is likely a good bit more performant
08:11	licenser	clgv: in does not work with functions
08:11	clgv	I meant, that you dont have to enumerate every value but specify only the min and max value
08:12	licenser	between I think
08:12	licenser	at least in SQL not sure if there is in sql
08:12	clgv	oh you skip the 17 in your example ;) didnt see that before^^
08:13	licenser	:)
08:13	licenser	okay I feel silly (disj {:a 1} :a) does not work
08:14	licenser	dissoc ah dissoc
08:16	clgv	;)
08:41	licenser	is there something like a seq product function? as in (* [1 2] [:a :b]) == [[1 :a] [1 :b] [2 :a] [2 :b]]?
08:42	clgv	licenser: yeah that looks like a cartesian product
08:43	ejackson	just for I guess
08:43	licenser	yap but I don't find that, there is supposed to be in contrib combinatorics but I don't find that sadly
08:43	clgv	licenser: there is an implementation of that in contrib
08:43	ejackson	,(for [a [1 2] b [3 4]] [a b])
08:43	clojurebot	([1 3] [1 4] [2 3] [2 4])
08:43	licenser	ejackson: nice!
08:44	clgv	licenser: there as well http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/combinatorics-api.html#clojure.contrib.combinatorics/cartesian-product
08:44	clgv	btw: is there any comprehensive survey page for "the new contrib"?
08:44	licenser	clgv: so I did not manage to call that
08:49	duck1123	clojure.algo.combinatorics
08:50	duck1123	s/algo/math/
08:50	clgv	duck1123: yeah thats the new standalone project of the previously mentioned^^
08:51	duck1123	clgv: right, I was just mentioning that there was a new version
08:51	clgv	good :)
09:21	snurmine	should i use javacc for parsing "sql"-queries or is there some more preferable way to do it in Clojure?
09:25	AWizzArd\|work	snurmine: you could have a look at fn-parse.
09:36	babilen	Hi all ... I find myself to be using something like "(filter (comp not nil?) xs)" once in a while. It doesn't feel completely right. Are there better ways to deal with nil in sequences? is this idiomatic?
09:43	duck1123	babilen: identity should be better for you
09:43	duck1123	but you want false to pass, don't you
09:44	hugod	,(doc keep)
09:44	clojurebot	"([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the non-nil results of (f item). Note, this means false return values will be included. f must be free of side-effects."
09:47	babilen	hugod: yay! That looks good
09:48	ejackson	hugod: nice one !
09:49	joegallo	does anybody here have the @ClojurePgh twitter handle?
09:49	joegallo	If so, the pittsburgh clojure users group would like to get in touch with you.
09:50	dpritchett	technomancy: installing emacs24 from github solved my packaging issues unsurprisingly. thanks for the help yesterday
09:51	babilen	duck1123: Thanks for the identity trick, I'll use that. (I don't have another predicate I want to filter by)
09:52	duck1123	for being somewhat useless on it's own, identity is great as a predicate
09:54	snurmine	AWizzArd\|work: thank you
09:55	hugod	snurmine: also https://github.com/cgrand/parsley
09:56	fdaoud	,(keep identity [1 false 2 nil 42])
09:56	clojurebot	(1 false 2 42)
09:58	snurmine	hugod: thank you
10:01	dpritchett	anyone in here happily using a vim mode for emacs?
10:01	dpritchett	the last time i tried e.g. viper it was too slow to bother with
10:02	dpritchett	that might be my fault of course
10:03	AWizzArd\|work	Yes, parsley is also very nice I must say, and currently maintained.
10:04	babilen	dpritchett: evil is quite OK
10:04	AWizzArd\|work	The thing is that fnparse can work on arbitrarily token sequences, while parsley can work only on Strings.
10:05	dpritchett	thanks babilen
10:07	babilen	dpritchett: http://gitorious.org/evil/pages/Home (The query "evil vim emacs" is certainly not optimal)
10:21	ejackson	fliebel: :)
10:24	fliebel	ejackson: TeX worked, btw. But the guy was right, some smamples fall of the page if you make the text bigger of the page smaller.
10:24	ejackson	rats.
10:24	ejackson	TeX is very arsy about where it puts figures, you really cannot tell it "put it here dammit"
10:25	ejackson	usually they don't vanish though...
10:25	ejackson	just get moved to where TeX things they should go
10:25	fliebel	nu, just overflow of the page
10:26	fliebel	But he said he would decouple the scale of the figures and the text, and hten it'd work
10:26	fliebel	But now I can at least start reading.
10:27	fliebel	&(javax.quantum.Universe.)
10:27	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: javax.quantum.Universe
10:27	fliebel	I bet it's singelton.
10:28	ejackson	:D
10:58	bhenry	best SMTP library… go!
11:02	andrewclegg	bhenry: guess that wasn't the torrent of responses you were hoping for
11:02	bhenry	andrewclegg: haha
11:02	TimMc	I am fairly sure I saw someone using something clled "smteepee" in here yesterday. It has a funny name...
11:02	bhenry	sfteepee
11:02	bhenry	but if there is an equivalent of that i'm all for it, because sfteepee is great
11:03	bhenry	TimMc: aww doesn't look like it
11:04	fliebel	ejackson: I see what you mean. TeX moved all figures to the end of the chapter :(
11:04	TimMc	sfteepee, right
11:04	TimMc	never mind
11:05	TimMc	javax.mail.smtp.oh.god.shoot.me.now
11:05	ejackson	fliebel: yup, you can put in modifiers, like [htb], around the figures, but TeX scorns them :(
11:06	fliebel	TimMc: What are you doing with javax.mail?
11:06	fliebel	ejackson: Oh, interesting...
11:07	TimMc	fliebel: Nothing! I was just suggesting that there is probably a standard (and terrible to work with) Java lib for SMTP.
11:08	fliebel	TimMc: https://github.com/manutter51/nonomail/
11:37	PPaul	can i use js libraries with clojurescript?
11:38	lucian	PPaul: yes
11:47	zackmaril	How does one force a LazySeq to eval?
11:47	mefesto	zackmaril: doall or dorun
11:48	mefesto	zackmaril: doall when you want all the results, dorun for forcing side-effects but no need for results
11:48	Raynes	Or avoid getting a lazyseq in the first place, if possible.
11:49	Raynes	For example, use ##(doseq [x [1 2 3]] (println x)) rather than ##(map println [1 2 3]).
11:49	lazybot	(doseq [x [1 2 3]] (println x)) ⇒ 1 2 3 nil
11:49	zackmaril	Not entirely sure where the lazyseq is getting induced actually.
11:49	lazybot	(map println [1 2 3]) ⇒ (123nil nil nil)
11:50	dnolen	zackmaril: most of the sequence fns produce lazy sequences (map, filter, interleave, concat etc.)
11:50	zackmaril	Then I am working mostly with lazy sequences then.
11:51	zackmaril	Can you have nested lazy sequences?
11:52	zackmaril	I am running doall on a variable and the result is of type LazySeq
11:55	zackmaril	Solved. I had some weird nesting of maps going that resulted in strangeness
12:05	andrewclegg	I'm using (:name (meta func)) to get the name of a function
12:06	andrewclegg	but this returns null for multimethods
12:06	andrewclegg	anyone know the right way?
12:07	Raynes	andrewclegg: You can look up the metadata on the var.
12:08	Raynes	&(meta #'print-method)
12:08	lazybot	⇒ {:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name print-method, :line 3253, :file "clojure/core.clj"}
12:08	Raynes	^ print-method is a multimethod.
12:09	andrewclegg	hmm, maybe it's the particular one I've got that's the problem
12:09	andrewclegg	expt in clojure.contrib.math
12:09	andrewclegg	(meta expt) returns nil
12:38	jcrossley3	is there a recommended clojure test mocking lib?
12:39	technomancy	jcrossley3: binding is popular =)
12:39	danlarkin	clojure.core/binding
12:39	technomancy	danlarkin: oooooh
12:39	technomancy	o/
12:39	danlarkin	gah you beat me by a second
12:40	jcrossley3	technomancy: danlarkin: thanks. like this? http://blog.n01se.net/?p=134
12:41	technomancy	jcrossley3: that blog post references working around a feature of Clojure that has thankfully been removed.
12:41	hiredman	not true, :static still exists
12:42	technomancy	is it the same thing?
12:43	hiredman	yes
12:43	hiredman	it's use is just frowned on(a lot)
12:43	technomancy	and it's not automatically applied to a bunch of useful functions
12:44	hiredman	it is, actually, a lot of core is :static
12:45	technomancy	huh; I guess it's been a while since I did any core reading
12:45	hiredman	my bad, it does look like it is commented out in the compiler
12:46	dnolen	hiredman: yeah :static doesn't do anything anymore.
12:46	hiredman	(thank god)
12:53	jcrossley3	technomancy: binding works much better than i thought mocking would. :)
12:54	hiredman	well, binding only sort of works in 1.2 and will fail in 1.3+
12:54	hiredman	you want with-redefs
12:57	jcrossley3	hiredman: regardless, i like having a "built in" solution
12:59	hiredman	with-redefs in 1.3 came about as a response to someone asking rhickey about mocking now that vars aren't dynamic by default, "he said what do you mean?" they said "well we can't use binding to mock anymore" he said "are you crazy? you shouldn't be using binding for that" (all paraphrased of course)
13:02	gtrak	ha, hiredman do you have a reference for that? I always enjoy those kinds of responses from him
13:04	hiredman	it was at the conj
13:29	mefesto	in noir, what benefit does defpartial have over just a normal function that returns elements for hiccup to process?
13:30	mefesto	i see that the macro wraps the body in `(html ~@body) ... just wondering if this is better?
13:35	mefesto	well not "if it's better" but more the why of it
13:45	bhenry	is there a class that will catch any errors? i could use a finally, but want to capture the class of the exception in E so i can use it in the expr*
13:46	bhenry	no matter what the exception is
13:47	fliebel	bhenry: reflection?
13:47	raek	bhenry: Throwable
13:47	raek	it is the superclass of Exception and Error
13:48	bhenry	coool.
13:49	bhenry	so if i replace Exception here https://gist.github.com/98aaad781edaee81ab81 with java.lang.Throwable it will catch everything?
13:49	bhenry	raek: ^^
13:49	raek	bhenry: yes
13:49	bhenry	raek very nice. thank you
13:50	raek	you don't need the java.lang. prefix
13:51	bhenry	hmm. it's not emailing and it's not doing what it's supposed to. i think it's missing that catch, but i don't know why
14:28	jodaro	off topic and thoroughly entertaining: http://gizmodo.com/5853729/
14:29	fdaoud	following Rich's "Simple made Easy" talk, I'm trying to tease apart this ball of mud into nice straight unbraided strings, but I don't know where to start
14:29	fdaoud	https://gist.github.com/1320378
14:29	fdaoud	there has to be a nice way to isolate the conditions from the function calls, and chain everything together in a nice way
14:29	amalloy	fdaoud: i don't think mud is composed of strings :P
14:30	jodaro	well unless you are talking quantum physics
14:30	fdaoud	amalloy: sorry, got my analogies mixed up ;)
14:30	jodaro	but as nice as clojure is, i don't think it has quite reached that point
14:31	Squee-D	excuse my very sensational newbiness, but when i do ([1 2 3] 2) i get the last entry in the collection, because as i understand it, this particular list type also acts as a function
14:31	Squee-D	but (`(1 2 3) 2) is a cast error because PersistantList doesn't behave as a function
14:32	fdaoud	Squee-D: [] is a vector
14:33	Squee-D	fair enough, makes sense mathematically too. but why is a PersistantList not functionally similar?
14:34	amalloy	because lists don't have fast random access
14:34	Squee-D	that makes sense
14:35	Squee-D	but they are sequences right?
14:35	Squee-D	that is i can use the sequence functions on them
14:35	amalloy	yes
14:35	Squee-D	ta
14:35	amalloy	such as nth, if you don't mind slow random access
14:35	Squee-D	sorry, really am very new to this...
14:35	Squee-D	I'll worry about speed later, I'm just trying to come to terms with the syntax first.
14:36	Squee-D	but its useful information, thankyou :D
14:37	Squee-D	http://www.4clojure.com/problem/19 I was doing this practice question
14:39	Squee-D	and the golf thing i think makes it rather poor, it needs scoring for things like optimisation i think.
14:39	Squee-D	i look at other solutions and of course i see how to use the least chars, not how a veteran may approach the problem.
14:40	TimMc	amalloy: Could you set it up to say "Golf League" next to usernames when showing solutions?
14:40	amalloy	TimMc: what do you mean?
14:41	Squee-D	to identify people who are solving for 'in least char count'
14:41	TimMc	exactly
14:41	Squee-D	Still, I think a discuss page or a 'the experts say' might be helpful to newbs, especially for those 'easy' questions
14:42	amalloy	there's not really a way to identify that? for the non-trivial problems i usually don't maximize for brevity, but for the trivial ones i do. what would you put next to my name, TimMc?
14:42	Squee-D	nonetheless, it's great to have problems to solve, makes me research
14:43	TimMc	amalloy: I think it might still help.
14:43	amalloy	Squee-D: fwiw i just changed my solution to #19 to how i would write it if the last function didn't exist
14:43	TimMc	amalloy: How many of the (say) Top 50 users are not in the Golf League?
14:43	amalloy	TimMc: no idea
14:43	drewr	is clojure.contrib.duck-streams/slurp* somewhere in 1.3 contrib world yet? I'm failing at finding it
14:43	amalloy	not that easy to find out, either
14:44	TimMc	drewr: clojure.java.io I think...
14:44	technomancy	drewr: clojure.core/slurp does what slurp* used to do
14:44	hiredman	drewr: I believe slurp can do most of what slurp* could do now
14:44	amalloy	slurp is in core. what does slurp* do?
14:44	technomancy	I think they forgot to document that though
14:44	TimMc	drewr: duck-streams didn't make the transition to 1.3, so it is a bit scattered.
14:45	Squee-D	amalloy that's quite a function :D
14:45	drewr	technomancy, hiredman: ah yes, I knew I was missing something obvious
14:45	amalloy	Squee-D: eh?
14:46	Squee-D	amalloy for an easy question, it introduces heaps of new ideas to me. especially if-let.
14:46	Squee-D	Not complaining, just proves my point i think. the solutions page can be a bit of mix bag of good and bad.
14:47	fdaoud	perhaps my question was too vague
14:47	hiredman	Squee-D: mixed bag by what criteria?
14:47	TimMc	Squee-D: Also note that amalloy has shadowed rest with a local. Potential pitfall.
14:47	hiredman	I dunno that I would ever use code I found on 4clojure for anything in practice
14:48	amalloy	TimMc: i introduce pitfalls on purpose so that i have practice leaping over them (only half-joking here)
14:48	hiredman	so it that sense it is all bad
14:48	Raynes	amalloy: Guess everybody is at his mercy.
14:48	hiredman	(no mix)
14:48	Squee-D	hiredman yeah and it's a great learning tool if i remember to not consider the solutions as 'common' or 'good' practice
14:49	hiredman	shrug it's a great learning tool up to a point, beyond which you are better of writing real code that solves a real problem
14:49	hiredman	off
14:49	TimMc	Squee-D: It's a good way to find out about core functions.
14:49	Squee-D	TimMc if it's not too annyoing. 1. what's shadowing and 2. whats the pitfall?
14:49	Squee-D	TimMc yeah
14:50	Raynes	&(let [rest identity] (rest [1 2 3]))
14:50	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 3]
14:50	Raynes	^ That is shadowing.
14:50	TimMc	Squee-D: "rest" is a function in clojure.core. By creating a local binding called "rest", you are making it impossible (well difficult) to use the clojure.core version in the enclosed code.
14:51	TimMc	Squee-D:You are also setting up a situation where you might accidentally call the local where you intended the clojure.core version.
14:51	fdaoud	Maybe this could be a starting point. How would you chain together several function calls such that the result is the first function that returns a non-nil result?
14:51	TimMc	fdaoud: some
14:51	Squee-D	hiredman yep well my first real code project is to replace a reactive system written with ruby eventMachine, pub/subbing with amqp, storing in redis/memcache or similar, and ocassionally talking to psql... I'm still quite a ways from using that as a practical project.
14:51	Raynes	But if you know you aren't going to do that, then I wouldn't worry about it. Just keep it in mind if you ever have a chance of calling it. If I didn't shadow in my code, I'd kill myself trying to name locals.
14:52	Squee-D	Only been at clojure for one day :D
14:52	amalloy	fdaoud: chain them? that implies passing the result of one to the next, but if they're returning nil there's nothing to chain
14:52	TimMc	fdaoud: Oh wait, you want the function...
14:52	Squee-D	Timc now i get shadowing. thanks.
14:53	TimMc	Squee-D: Like Raynes said, it's fine to do, just be mindful.
14:53	hiredman	Squee-D: and you think rewriting functions in clojure core in the least amount of characters is going to get your to that place?
14:53	Squee-D	hiredman no. that was actually my point.
14:53	hiredman	(seems unlikely)
14:53	fdaoud	TimMc: I think you're right. something like (some identity [(f1 x) (f2 y) ...])
14:54	amalloy	fdaoud: no, then you're calling them all regardless, which it sounds like you don't want to
14:54	hiredman	so what is the problem with the ruby evenmachine version that you are going to solve with clojure?
14:54	fdaoud	amalloy: perhaps chain isn't the correct term. each function is independent, but in a certain order and when one returns nil, go on to the next
14:54	Squee-D	I was saying the golf league attitude causes a lot of those solutions to be terse to the exclusion of good practice. but i think we've covered the topic now :D
14:54	amalloy	(some #(%) [#(f1 x) #(f2 y) ...])
14:54	amalloy	Squee-D: i agree, and i wish it weren't that way. but characters are easy to measure, so we measure them :P
14:55	fdaoud	amalloy: that will make it lazy?
14:55	TimMc	fdaoud: But you want f2, not the result of (f2 y)...
14:55	fdaoud	TimMc: actually I do want (f2 y)
14:55	antares_	Squee-D: just curious, are you replacing an amqp/Ruby system with amqp/Clojure? I maintain AMQP clients for both :)
14:55	TimMc	Oh! OK.
14:55	amalloy	fdaoud: you'll probably be happier if you read the code and understand it rather than having me answer whether it's lazy
14:56	Squee-D	hiredman I am taking clojure into consideration for 2 reasons. 1. i can live debug. 2. Our current code is cumbersome and innellegant. it needs a heavy refactor (the previous team did not have the same standards around elegance that this team does)
14:56	fdaoud	amalloy: you are absolutely right
14:56	Squee-D	antares_ considering it.
14:56	fdaoud	amalloy, TimMc, thanks
14:56	hiredman	amalloy: maybe some kind of distance from a the clojure.core implementation, or some kind of mean
14:57	antares_	Squee-D: ok. Then maybe take a look at https://github.com/michaelklishin/langohr if you decide to go with Clojure.
14:57	fdaoud	amalloy: so really you are telling _me_ not to be so lazy. :D
14:57	amalloy	hah. indeed
14:58	Squee-D	antares_ a previous dev wrote https://github.com/visfleet/pipeline_toolkit which seemed nice on paper, at the time. but it's a nightmare to orchestrate
14:58	fdaoud	I definitely need to sit down and figure this stuff out. I think I got overwhelmed from listening to both Rich's and Jim's talks back-to-back.
14:58	Squee-D	antares_ rather than patch it up with dsl's for orchestration, i figure at the very least we should just have full ruby process per 'pipeline' rather than this chaing of piped processes
14:59	Squee-D	fdaoud that's pretty much the command pattern in fp?
14:59	antares_	Squee-D: with Clojure the chaining part will be significantly easier. I kind of do chaining with just functions and threads, much more manageable than processes.
15:00	Squee-D	antares_ i also expect a boon from being able to attach the repl to the process.
15:00	Squee-D	because debugging evented code in ruby is pretty difficult.
15:01	Squee-D	I prefer not to have to debug, but the system has a lot of open ends that could be abused, and are routinely abused.
15:01	antares_	Squee-D: absolutely, that was another change I personally am very happy about. And tools like VisualVM will help, too.
15:01	amalloy	haha sounds kinda like 4clojure, Squee-D
15:02	Squee-D	it's quite strange to be able to talk like a modern architect at one level with you fellows, and like a complete gumby when it comes to anything clojure related.
15:03	Squee-D	I love the days you feel both reasonably intelligent and drooling-special-needs in the same breath.
15:03	Squee-D	I dont get enough of them
15:03	mdeboard	Trade bodies with me, that's my every day
15:04	Squee-D	I spend considerably more time mentoring than being mentored. It's not a good balance.
15:05	Squee-D	antares_ so whats the several layers of DSLs that langhor is avoiding?
15:05	fdaoud	Squee-D: to me the command pattern in fp is just a function
15:06	timvisher	could anyone tell me how to add a file to the classpath in leiningen?
15:06	amalloy	timvisher: usually the answer is "don't do that"
15:06	timvisher	i'm trying to add log4j.properties
15:06	antares_	Squee-D: it is just a small layer of Clojure on top of the Java client. I am also incorporating good things from amqp gem into it over time. The goal is to make error handling & recovery great (Java client does not really offer much by default, like many other clients) and provide ways to implement common patterns by just function composition.
15:06	timvisher	i like asking these sorts of questions lately, it would seem. :)
15:06	raek	timvisher: put it in resources/
15:06	amalloy	i keep my .properties files in ./resources
15:07	Squee-D	fdaoud wait isn't anything not a type 'just a function' :P
15:07	antares_	Squee-D: so my code that uses Langohr pretty much has no macros or DSLs in them. But heavily uses clojure.core/comp and a couple of other small libraries of mine that compose functions.
15:07	Squee-D	antares_ when did you first start with fp?
15:08	antares_	Squee-D: 1.5-2 years ago, with Scala. I have been using functional-ish idioms in Ruby and Java since 2006 or so.
15:08	raek	timvisher: that directory is not created by default, but leiningen will include it if it exists (you may need to restart the process after creating the dir, though)
15:08	antares_	Squee-D: it is much easier to pick up than you think. Much easier than get really good at DSLs, for example.
15:08	timvisher	raek, amalloy: working on that. :)
15:09	Squee-D	antares_ im pretty tight with ruby meta
15:09	antares_	Squee-D: and certainly the cost of experimenting is lower compared to DSLs
15:09	Squee-D	antares_ i'm sure i'll change my tune, but i guess what scares me is i feel like im reaching the top of my imperitive game
15:10	timvisher	hmm, I'm just seemingly incapable of setting up tools.logging...
15:10	Squee-D	antares_ so fp feels like a very steep climb at the moment
15:11	Squee-D	So is there such a thing as 'Clean Code' for functional programmers?
15:11	antares_	Squee-D: I know what you mean. I also know a few people who kind of grew out of Ruby/DSLs and found Clojure very worth using because they have a ton of additional options to choose from (in addition to DSLs) without going through all the Scala/ML type system jazz even when it does not help much.
15:11	Squee-D	Scala,i think, has an even worse leaning curve, its TIMTOWTDI on steroids whenever i look at it.
15:12	antares_	Squee-D: I think learning about Haskell is the best way to absorb FP ideas. And I have no plans to use Haskell at work, just learning many things from it. Apparently it influenced Clojure more than people think.
15:12	Squee-D	I did start with haskell, but ditched it for Clojure as soon as i saw the jvm .
15:13	amalloy	is there something wrong with there being more than one way to do it? clojure heavily encourages functional programming and sequences, but often there are a number of ways to express the same idea
15:13	antares_	Squee-D: haskell has many ideas about function composition that you can use from Clojure. But in haskell they are very much at the core so you absolutely cannot not notice them.
15:13	Squee-D	amalloy it can get burdensome. conventions, obvious patterns and recognizable patterns assist the programmer
15:14	dnolen	antares_: Squee-D: I think Standard ML is a better place to start IMO. In Haskell you have to deal w/ ubiquitous laziness and monads.
15:14	Squee-D	dsl's are nice in that it's code for programmers. if you approach DSL writing with a strong ethos of high-usability, you can make daily tasks much less arduous
15:14	antares_	amalloy: I think Scala has a bit of a bad reputation in this regard, often undeserved.
15:14	antares_	dnolen: agreed. OCaml or F# are "smaller" yet many ideas are basically the same.
15:15	amalloy	eg, a little toy in that neighborhood: you can write (foo (bar (baz sam))), (-> sam baz bar foo), or even something like (foo (-> (baz sam) bar)) depending on what you want to emphasize - they're semantically identical
15:16	Squee-D	the same is true of a lot of languages. like python. But the 80/20 rule is to find a readily readable pattern for a desired outcome. composing functions and dsls are both means to that end.
15:16	Squee-D	the example you give i can read fairly easily, as a novice.
15:17	Squee-D	and omg in ruby you can do things in a lot of different ways. What I found with Scala tho, is a lot of projects that were not showing any care for the next guy to read the code.
15:18	Squee-D	antares_ and i could be giving Scala undeserving flack here.
15:18	Squee-D	it just felt that way whenever i tried to accomplish something.
15:18	antares_	Squee-D: to get a feeling of how function composition can make your code drastically simpler and shorter, take a look at https://github.com/michaelklishin/validateur. It is by no means finished but it is like 6-7 times shorter than the original Ruby version. And Ruby is considered a concise language.
15:19	antares_	Squee-D: and also you can add any kind of validator you want, each validator is just a function. So they are trivial to test, compose and reuse.
15:19	fdaoud	antares_: what's with the French in naming Clojure projects? (not that there's anything wrong with that)
15:19	fdaoud	Validateur, Noir, Moustache, et quoi encore?
15:20	antares_	fdaoud: I am out English names for just about anything. Langohr is German and I have a bunch of libraries named after Italian drinks (like Limoncello) ;)
15:20	bhenry	moustache was written by a french guy right?
15:20	chouser	I think cgrande is German
15:20	Squee-D	oh i cant wait for chinnoto
15:20	fdaoud	I'd guess Christophe Grand is Fernch
15:20	fdaoud	*French
15:21	fdaoud	J'en suis presque certain.
15:21	redinger	Yeah, I thought he was French, too
15:21	bhenry	cgrand.net is in french
15:21	Squee-D	antares_ yeah so im still so un-lispy that i'd rather read ActiveRecord::Validations right now :D
15:23	fdaoud	he's not impressed with GWT; "the Maven presentation was well done despite the PC spontaneously rebooting" hehe
15:23	fdaoud	jcromartie, the man
15:23	jcromartie	hey
15:24	jcromartie	you flatter
15:24	chouser	I don't think cgrande.net has anything to do with our cgrande
15:24	bhenry	our cgrande got cgrand.net
15:24	chouser	our cgrande is actually cgrand :-)
15:24	bhenry	haha
15:25	chouser	oh, I see. cgrand.net is also french. Hm.
15:25	redinger	He's definitely flying to the Conj from France. :)
15:26	chouser	See, I originally assumed he was Franch, but thought I was disabused of that notion at the previous Conj. Hm.
15:26	fdaoud	yeah it's Grand not Grande
15:26	Raynes	chouser: Isn't cgrande.net spanish?
15:26	fdaoud	Grand means Tall
15:26	Raynes	I'm not much for languages.
15:26	Raynes	Spoken languages, anyway.
15:26	fdaoud	Grande means Tall woman
15:26	TimMc	antares_: I'm going to start naming things after the scientific names of plants and animals
15:26	redinger	Raynes: Now that's funny
15:26	antares_	Raynes: looks like Catalan to me
15:26	bhenry	cgrande.net is catalan according to google
15:27	TimMc	Why not cgrande.cat, then? :-)
15:27	Squee-D	Reading validateurs code, I find myself looking for classifications and local state for anchor points. It feels like snow crash.
15:28	raek	I find it amusing that the two of the most famous french clojurians are called "Grand" and "Petit"
15:28	Squee-D	Anyone remember having a "a-ha i'm no longer decoding the code, i'm reading it" moment? I want that
15:28	antares_	raek: hahaha
15:29	antares_	Squee-D: you will be there in a couple of weeks. Clojure Programming from O'Reilly is the best place to start, I think. The Joy of Clojure is your ultimate destination ;)
15:29	Squee-D	okeedokes
15:30	Squee-D	thanks for your time guys
15:31	Squee-D	I go do some 9-5 stuff now :D
15:31	Raynes	redinger: I'm all about funny. I plan to tape a whoopie cushion to my back so that I can even be funny when I faint before giving my talk at the conj.
15:32	fdaoud	antares_: I don't do rough cuts so impatiently waiting for its release, still a month or two to go..
15:32	redinger	Raynes: Sounds like a riot. Hopefully the other Geni guys are brining smelling salts
15:32	Raynes	Hopefully.
15:32	Raynes	I'll just call amalloy up to hold my hand if I get scared. <3
15:33	redinger	he should prepare some kind of magic show act to entertain the crowd
15:35	amalloy	i'll reimplement some of the clojure.core functions in as few characters as possible
15:35	amalloy	the crowd goes wild
15:54	gtrak	is it possible to steal the counter-clockwise repl and use it as a external tool on normal java projects, with auto-complete and such?
15:55	gtrak	I managed to do it manually with just the clojure jar, but the repl is very lacking
15:58	amalloy	gtrak: cake repl has autocomplete
15:58	amalloy	otherwise, rlwrap probably does most of what you need
15:59	gtrak	yea, i'm working in eclipse, it's console is full of suck
15:59	gtrak	i'll check out rlwrap
16:00	gtrak	it sucks working in java-land
16:16	Squee-D	antares_ you sure you meant the oreilly book? Its yet to be published. There's a prag bookshelf one
16:18	fdaoud	Squee-D maybe he got the rough cut
16:18	fdaoud	the prag one has a second edition coming up btw
16:18	Squee-D	perhaps. just wanted to be certain of what he was recommending
16:18	fdaoud	also clojure in action is coming out in about a month
16:19	Squee-D	yeah i might just dive in with the other manning one
16:19	Squee-D	Joy
16:19	fdaoud	I'm about halfway through Joy, it's excellent
16:25	moomin	Hi, I'm hoping someone can help me with another variable resolution problem.
16:25	moomin	This may be seriously leiningen specific.
16:25	chouser	I personally recommend Joy. You can probably guess why. ;-)
16:25	moomin	I've got a variable called handel.config/port-override
16:26	moomin	I've got a hook that attaches to ring
16:26	moomin	(a prepend)
16:26	moomin	This then changes the value of the variable.
16:27	moomin	If I check the value within the hooks file, it's changed.
16:27	moomin	But when it actually runs, it's unchanged.
16:29	moomin	Could anyone explain to me what I'm doing wrong here?
16:31	bloop	This is probably the most common question here, so I'll ask carefully: What's the best link on list vs vector? :)
16:33	moomin	Don't know of one, I'm afraid. Biggest observations are that vectors have fast nth access and conj puts values at the end.
16:33	Squee-D	chouser: i hope you got at least 50cents from my purchase
16:34	Squee-D	Publishers are notoriously cheap
16:34	fdaoud	chouser: you and fogus did a fantastic job
16:35	fdaoud	(cue chouser to say "it was all me, fogus just piggybacked") ;)
16:35	fdaoud	Squee-D: actually it's 25cents because he has to split it with Fogus
16:36	Squee-D	nah i hear fogus get's $1.10
16:36	Squee-D	but dont tell chouser
16:38	moomin	More generally, is there a way to detect whether or not your code is running within leiningen?
16:41	antares_	Squee-D: I sure meant the O'Reilly book. The pragprog one is outdated and has low signal/noise ration in my opinion. It was the 1st book on Clojure so it caters to absolute noobs heavily.
16:41	antares_	*ratio
16:42	Squee-D	The O'Reilly one is due in december
16:43	redinger	antares_: The prag one has a rewritten second version in beta right now
16:43	mefesto	moomin: this may not be the best way but when run in leiningen the env var LEIN_VERSION is set
16:44	fdaoud	there's one more book in the works I believe
16:45	antares_	redinger: I know. I feel that it won't change its target audience, though. I may buy it either way :)
16:45	fdaoud	no starch press?
16:45	antares_	Squee-D: I have O'Reilly Safari subscription so I read the rough cut version :)
16:45	amalloy	fdaoud: Raynes's book?
16:45	redinger	fdaoud: There's Raynes book and Amit's book
16:45	Squee-D	Oh i havent had a safari sub in a long while, it was a money sync, i kept ordering books and not having time to read them
16:45	fdaoud	Amit's is Manning's Clojure in Action, so yeah amalloy I think you're right. That one is meant for beginners, yes?
16:46	Squee-D	sink*
16:46	dpritchett	Do I need to do anything to emacs24 to get really detailed colors with clojure-mode?
16:46	antares_	Squee-D: there is also Practical Clojure from apress that I like. Clojure in Action, I did not finish reading.
16:46	dpritchett	i seem to remember there being more variety the last time i used this
16:46	Squee-D	going to see how i get along with Joy, although it's aimed hi
16:46	fdaoud	http://meetclj.raynes.me/
16:46	Raynes	I really need to rewrite that text.
16:47	Raynes	Just a big ol' block of long-windedness.
16:47	dpritchett	mine looksl ike this http://i.imgur.com/63jzy.png and its not too exciting
16:47	fdaoud	Raynes! How's your book coming along?
16:47	Raynes	Smoothly.
16:47	Raynes	Still far, far from being done.
16:47	Squee-D	oh i want.
16:50	Squee-D	Learn you haskell made me feel ok to feel dumb
16:51	amalloy	dpritchett: you want to customize your faces
16:51	bhenry	dpritchett: http://i.imgur.com/7W7MF.png
16:51	dpritchett	yeah bhenry that's more like what i had in mind
16:51	amalloy	though i don't care for rainbow parens, personally
16:52	dpritchett	i don't really need rainbows either, but the string literal is the same color as defn and all the other stuff
16:52	bhenry	amalloy: they don't matter if you have paren-highlighting on, but i imagine you want at least one of those things.
16:52	dpritchett	i have paredit on too fwiw
16:52	amalloy	bhenry: nope, no thanks
16:53	amalloy	having it highlight the matching paren when i close one is enough for me
16:53	amalloy	with paredit, at least
16:53	bhenry	amalloy: what are you a robot?
16:53	amalloy	bhenry: http://i.imgur.com/d63Op.png is mine, but perhaps a bit too high-contrast for some
16:53	dpritchett	in other news, newlines are for sissies
16:53	Squee-D	That i can read
16:54	dpritchett	that looks nice amalloy!
16:54	brehaut	amalloy: your terminal is a window into 1992!
16:54	Squee-D	i code for sissies, like me
16:54	amalloy	dpritchett: i started with color-theme and installed tty-dark, then customized the colors for several of the faces
16:55	Squee-D	whats the font, looks like anonymous
16:55	dpritchett	i'll need to mess with the faces i guess, amalloy
16:55	amalloy	it's uh, whatever is default on linux
16:55	dpritchett	i just typed in your abort-transaction function
16:55	dpritchett	and my exception didn't get a special color like yours does
16:55	amalloy	DejaVu Sans Mono apparently?
16:55	hiredman	Mensch!!!
16:55	Squee-D	yeah that sounds like a default
16:56	hiredman	(we are talking about fonts right?)
16:56	brehaut	incidentally, the ubuntu mono is quite nice. maybe not quite as good as inconsolata, but it has bold and oblique faces
16:56	Squee-D	hiredman oooh not bad
16:57	amalloy	dpritchett: clojure-mode sets faces for a bunch of different semantic things (eg, classes), but the default colors for many of those are the same
16:57	Raynes	I <3 DejaVu
16:57	dpritchett	where would i go to recolor the faces?
16:57	amalloy	dpritchett: M-x customize-face
16:57	hiredman	http://robey.lag.net/2010/06/21/mensch-font.html <-- look at those huge angle brackets
16:58	dpritchett	thats cool hiredman
16:58	fdaoud	Raynes: don't change your book cover :)
16:58	amalloy	dpritchett: if point is on a form, customize-face defaults to customizing whatever is in control of that form
16:58	dpritchett	sweet, you read my mind
16:58	amalloy	for java interop, it's apparently font-lock-preprocessor-face
16:58	fdaoud	I'd love to write a book focused on clojure web development
16:59	Raynes	My book will have a chapter on web development with noir.
16:59	brehaut	hiredman: mensch is good. thanks for the pointer
16:59	fdaoud	great to hear Raynes
17:00	fdaoud	I'm hoping there's some good web stuff in cemerick's book too
17:01	brehaut	fdaoud: i understand that there might be some good SQL stuff from brian carper, which is tangentially web stuff
17:02	fdaoud	brehaut: that might be interesting
17:02	brehaut	fdaoud: otherwise, what sort of web stuff do you want? theres a wide range of good material available for free
17:04	aperiodic	taking the discussion back 8 minutes, I have never wanted for another monospace font since discovering inconsolitas
17:05	fdaoud	brehaut: what do you use for serious clojure web development?
17:06	brehaut	fdaoud: i use the ring ecosystem. particularly moustache and enlive (although there are times when i think hiccup might be more appropriate)
17:06	brehaut	fdaoud: i pick and choose other libs as needed
17:08	fdaoud	brehaut: cool. so typically it's ring, then either compojure or moustache, and finally enlive or hiccup, yes?
17:08	brehaut	fdaoud: yes. if you want some more handholding, webnoir collects things together and is a little more prescriptive, but its just a layer on top
17:10	brehaut	fdaoud: webnoir also has a strong set of docs and tutorials on its project's website
17:10	fdaoud	brehaut: thanks.. the tools have evolved since I last wrote a webapp with clojure, back then it was pretty much just ring and compojure, and I used Velocity for templating
17:10	TimMc	aperiodic: Inconsolata
17:11	TimMc	(to be precise)
17:11	dpritchett	i just use consolas
17:11	TimMc	dpritchett: THat's the MS one, right?
17:11	dpritchett	it's not perfect but it's good enough to not bother looking further afield
17:11	dpritchett	i think so TimMc
17:11	dpritchett	i guess i'm using a different one at home on my mac
17:11	brehaut	dpritchett: does consolas have true bold and oblique faces?
17:12	dpritchett	i am not enough of a typesetter to be able to answer that brehaut
17:12	dpritchett	maybe i use menlo on my mac, not sure. it's running snow leopard and i poked around til i found one
17:12	dpritchett	maybe inconsolatas
17:12	fdaoud	brehaut: on linux anyway, the answer is yes
17:12	dpritchett	inconsolata i mean
17:15	aperiodic	TimMc: ah, thanks. I've never heard it out loud so it's hard to remember how it's pronounced, thus spelled.
17:15	TimMc	It's pretty nice.
17:16	aperiodic	I really like it
17:17	aperiodic	I am using the variant with straight quotes and apostrophes, though
17:17	fdaoud	I keep going back and forth between consolas and monaco
17:18	fdaoud	sometimes droid sans mono
17:21	technomancy	no terminus fans?
17:22	fdaoud	used to be, but it doesn't work well on large monitors
17:23	technomancy	large monitors or high DPI?
17:23	fdaoud	both I guess
17:23	fdaoud	2x27" 1980x1080
17:24	hiredman	hah!
17:25	hiredman	2560x1440 is nicer, I mean
17:25	fdaoud	my favorite in the terminus days was vt100
17:25	technomancy	I don't think it has much to do with the display size, just the density.
17:26	fdaoud	I'm sure you're right
17:27	fdaoud	hiredman: how much do those go for?
17:28	hiredman	it was $800 or $900
17:28	fdaoud	ok.. over my budget, I paid $500 for the pair!
17:29	fdaoud	dual monitors are a must
17:36	fdaoud	$2500 on monitors?
17:36	fdaoud	what exactly are you hired for? ;)
17:37	srid	idiomatic way to call a function N times and accumulate the results in a collection?
17:37	srid	this doesn't work - (map #(rand-nth choices) (range 100))
17:37	amalloy	repeatedly
17:38	brehaut	fdaoud: http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/archives/pictures/matrix-architect.jpg
17:38	amalloy	fdaoud: software. if you hire someone for (say) $100k a year, and can increase their productivity by 25% at a cost of $2500, that's a thousand percent return on investment
17:38	srid	,(repeatedly 10 #(rand-int [1 2 3]))
17:38	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
17:39	amalloy	it's silly to skimp on those things
17:39	hiredman	oh, I paid for the monitors my self, they are not matching
17:39	technomancy	I'd buy a number close to 25% for the second monitor. the third and fourth... meh.
17:39	srid	,(take 10 (repeatedly #(rand-int [1 2 3])))
17:39	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
17:39	fdaoud	amalloy: I'm not talking about skimping on # of monitors, but for $250/monitor is decent, no? is it necessary to get a $900 monitor?
17:39	TimMc	,(doc rand-int)
17:39	amalloy	technomancy: fortunately i have a 900% margin for error in my calculations :P
17:39	clojurebot	"([n]); Returns a random integer between 0 (inclusive) and n (exclusive)."
17:40	hiredman	my 17" and 23" predate my current gig
17:40	technomancy	even with a second monitor it depends on what you're doing
17:40	srid	,(repeatedly 10 #(rand-nth [1 2 3]))
17:40	TimMc	,(take 10 (repeatedly #(rand-int 3)))
17:40	clojurebot	(2 1 2 3 3 ...)
17:40	hiredman	I work from home so it falls under home improvement
17:40	clojurebot	(2 2 2 0 2 ...)
17:40	technomancy	I don't miss external monitors nearly so much when I'm not doing web work
17:40	TimMc	clojurebot: Out Of Order!
17:40	clojurebot	Praetor: The ordering is usually such that (partial ...) is useful. :-)
17:41	amalloy	i just use one monitor because i'm not very good at utilizing the second
17:41	chewbranca	fdaoud: depends on how big of monitors you want, 30" monitors are just now getting into the $900-$1100 range
17:42	TimMc	amalloy: I have a standing workstation and a 1920x1200 monitor. Where would I put another one?
17:42	amalloy	TimMc: arrange them in a V shape
17:42	chewbranca	personally I can't stand even numbers of monitors, because then they aren't symmetrical, as your center of vision would be at the border where the two monitors connect
17:42	TimMc	I guess I could put them in portrait mode.
17:42	fdaoud	chewbranca: ok. I have 2 computers, one with 2x21" and one with 2x27". Personally I find the 27" too big. The 21" have the same resolution so are nicer IMO.
17:43	fdaoud	all were in the $250 range
17:43	chewbranca	fdaoud: ahhh nice
17:43	llasram`	chewbranca: Oh god. Thanks a lot. It's never bothered me before, but now I can't unsee it!
17:43	chewbranca	fdaoud: oh I agree, I picked up 3 24" monitors from costco (btw best place to get monitors) for $199 each
17:44	technomancy	my external monitor is too heavy to go in portrait orientation
17:44	hiredman	http://www.biscade.com/office/ (not me, I live in envy)
17:44	technomancy	oh, uh... #firstworldproblems
17:44	chewbranca	llasram`: hahaha yeah that's why odd numbers of monitors are key
17:44	jweiss	clojure.data/diff is nice, but i'd like to be able to reverse it to get the path i gave to update-in to make the change in the first place. i am sure it is possible, but having trouble figuring it out
17:44	chewbranca	only problem with multi monitors now is that they're all widescreen, so you end up with extra triple wide wide screen
17:44	dnolen	any opinions about the following for high-performance property access? http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/MATCH-4
17:45	fdaoud	chewbranca: you're right, I'd prefer 3 "not wide" monitors
17:45	chewbranca	I'm currently sitting on 5940x1080 res, which don't get me wrong, I love the horizontal screen space, but it lacks on vertical space for code
17:45	dnolen	for core.match
17:45	chewbranca	fdaoud: yeah tough to find these days
17:46	fdaoud	gotta go, later all
17:46	aperiodic	chewbranca: mount your monitors sideways?
17:46	chewbranca	fdaoud: I managed to find a cheap 19" dell 4:3 monitor on craigslist for my standing desk, but I think everything has gone widescreen now
17:46	chewbranca	fdaoud: later
17:46	fdaoud	chewbranca: yes that's the mainstream I guess
17:46	fdaoud	ciao
17:47	cemerick	dnolen: .-bar hurts, but this is bikeshed territory
17:47	chewbranca	aperiodic: the thought as crossed my mind, but, if you watch any movies or tv shows on your computer, then vertical monitors are rough
17:47	chewbranca	aperiodic: I'm trying to find a balance
17:47	technomancy	also many monitors don't have good vertical viewing angles
17:47	chewbranca	or better yet: http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/graphics/ati-radeon-hd-5000/hd-5870-eyefinity-6-edition/pages/overview.aspx
17:47	technomancy	so you get a slightly different color in your left eye vs your right eye, which will drive you nuts
17:48	chewbranca	:D
17:48	chewbranca	would be hilarious to have emacs full screen across 6 monitors
17:48	chewbranca	technomancy: oh interesting, I'll have to keep that in mind
17:48	moogatronic	Noob question: I have emacs 24/Swank/Slime working. Do most people remap their evaluate last expression key stroke? My pinky is already getting tired. =)
17:48	chewbranca	technomancy: is that common for vertical monitors?
17:48	technomancy	chewbranca: yeah, be sure to test it by turning your head sideways before you invest in anything =)
17:49	technomancy	moogatronic: most people make caps lock their ctl
17:49	chewbranca	technomancy: will do
17:49	aperiodic	oh, good point
17:49	chewbranca	moogatronic: I have caps lock and ctrl set to 'ctrl' so I can use whichever is more comfortable
17:50	moogatronic	technomancy: I do have my keyboard mapped that way, but if I'm treating my buffer like a repl, i'm hitting that keystroke all the time. Maybe my question should be is there a repl in emacs that you can just type sexps and hit enter to have them evaluated?
17:50	technomancy	moogatronic: sure, are you currently using slime without slime-repl?
17:50	aperiodic	the only time i've used vertical monitors was with crappy dell ones, and i chalked it up to their build quality rather than orientation
17:50	amalloy	moogatronic: isn't that M-p anyway? meta isn't usually a pinky key for me
17:51	moogatronic	technomancy: That's a good question - I don't know the answer. =)
17:51	amalloy	oh, you mean C-x C-e. i see
17:51	moogatronic	amalloy: yeah
17:52	moogatronic	whoa
17:52	moogatronic	nice.
17:52	moogatronic	=)
17:52	moogatronic	I thought about getting their completely separated keyboard
17:52	moogatronic	but dollars won out and I ended up with a MSFT natural 4k.
17:53	amalloy	anyway, yes, you probably want to use the slime repl
17:53	chewbranca	ahhhh yeah I can tell right nowby looking at my monitors sideways, looking at them horizontally, I have a wide angle of viewing where I can move left or right and still see it cleary, but vertically I can see a noticable difference with how centrally I need to be looking
17:53	chewbranca	amalloy: nice, how useful have you found that?
17:53	moogatronic	technomancy: is slime-repl something I need to install separately from slime et al ?
17:53	technomancy	moogatronic: if you are installing manually, yeah
17:54	technomancy	if you use M-x clojure-jack-in you get it all for free
17:54	moogatronic	I can work the google.. now that I know what i'm looking for. =)
17:54	moogatronic	I like the sound of free.
17:54	technomancy	moogatronic: the swank-clojure readme should get you what you need
17:54	technomancy	clojurebot: swank?
17:54	clojurebot	swank is try the readme. seriously.
17:54	amalloy	chewbranca: eh. i've had them for a month or two now. i don't think it will ever be as fast as using the modifier keys, but it's nice to give my fingers a break when i'm just editing or reading, rather than typing
17:54	technomancy	there ya go; clojurebot wouldn't lie to you.
17:54	chewbranca	amalloy: I've been toying around with the idea of picking up the kinesis advantage pro, I'm concerned with the keyboard being too small though as I'm pretty big, but I saw they have a 60 day return policy so I might have to check it out
17:55	amalloy	chewbranca: people who use the kinesis swear by it. personally i don't get it
17:55	chewbranca	amalloy: yeah don't always need speed
17:55	moogatronic	didn't know about the 60 day return policy. a few guys in my lab have the kenesis freestyles
17:55	chewbranca	amalloy: I've typed on it for maybe 30s, it feels potentially very comfortable
17:56	chewbranca	amalloy: I use an ergo keyboard and a trackball and still have issues, so looking to go more ergonomic than the microsoft natural keyboard
17:56	technomancy	chewbranca: I have the kinesis solo if you want to try it
17:56	moogatronic	I converted from the apple tiny kbd to this msft monstrosity. wrists are happy, but it takes so much space on my desk.
17:56	technomancy	you don't get the cupped shape, but you get to hold your arms straight out, which I think is of equal importance
17:56	amalloy	moogatronic: under-desk keyboard tray
17:56	chewbranca	technomancy: nice, yeah that would be cool, been struggling with the keyboard lately
17:56	technomancy	take a hacksaw to the numpad. show it who's boss
17:57	moogatronic	amalloy: I'm not allowed to attach stuff to the desk i've been assigned. lol
17:57	amalloy	i have vision problems, so i keep my keyboard entirely under the desk. means it costs me no desk space, and i can get the monitor right on the edge of the desk
17:57	moogatronic	but at home, my desk is glass… i'm pretty tall, most keyboard trays annoy me due to my knees ramming into them all the time. wrist comfort wins over appearance though.
17:57	aperiodic	i just got a Das Keyboard about a month ago, which i've been loving
17:58	moogatronic	chew: do you swap right and left hand mousing?
17:58	moogatronic	that helps me a bit.
17:58	mtm	maybe not ergonomic but I love the feel of the keys: http://matias.ca/tactilepro3/index.php
17:59	chewbranca	hiredman: I can use laptop keyboards for decent stretches, but I have to be more concious about sitting properly and keep my hands in correct posture
17:59	chewbranca	moogatronic: ahhh interesting, no I haven't tried that, good idea
17:59	moogatronic	I was drooling over this for a while: http://www.getsmartfish.com/Reflex-Keyboard-w-Anti-Fatigue-Comfort-Motion_p_8.html
17:59	chewbranca	moogatronic: I just ordered a bigger trackball mouse yesterday that is symmetric, so I'll have to give that a shot
17:59	moogatronic	it's windows only. no mac release yet.
17:59	moogatronic	has magic drivers or something for the key mappings, or some such nonsense.
17:59	chewbranca	mtm: I would love a tactile ergo keyboard
17:59	moogatronic	but the keyboard moves and adapts to the amount of time you've been typing.
18:00	chewbranca	moogatronic: oh crazy, wonder how noticable the movement is
18:01	moogatronic	the video was full of convincing propaganda about how it will make every aspect of your life more fulfilling, etc. =)
18:01	chewbranca	lol
18:02	moogatronic	if I don't have M-x clojure-jack-in, that probably means something on my system is out of date I'm assuming. =)
18:03	amalloy	moogatronic: it'd mean you're using a clojure mode from like 1995
18:03	moogatronic	time travel shit! i knew my computer was special.
18:04	dpritchett	i spent half the day yesterday trying to get m-x clojure-jack-in moogatronic
18:04	dpritchett	i wound up nuking emacs23, building emacs24 from source, and then install clojure-mode to get it
18:04	dpritchett	these are only the steps that worked, i'm leaving out all the hours of aborted attempts
18:04	moogatronic	… I'm really trying to learn clojure and overtone, but i don't want to eat up half a day screwing up my configuration in the process
18:05	moogatronic	i suppose its what is needed.
18:05	dpritchett	i didnt have anything in my emacs configs to begin with so i aws happy to start over
18:05	dpritchett	are you on v24 at least?
18:05	moogatronic	god knows i've spent multiple days getting my org-mode babel R and xelatex exporting all working
18:05	moogatronic	yeah, i'm on 24, but i'm running an old emacs starter kit
18:05	Raynes	cp -r ~/.emacs.d ~/.emacs.d.backup
18:06	moogatronic	emacs configuration is still in the voodoo-state with respect to my conceptual model, and everything i have working now is essential to completing required work.. =)
18:06	moogatronic	Raynes: good call.
18:09	moogatronic	unrelated: anyone aware of the taxi cost for late night rides in Raleigh, NC? (due to late booking, etc, I missed all the good/deal/prices for the conj venue hotel)
18:09	moogatronic	also, can you safely navigate the streets of downtown after midnight on foot?
18:18	hiredman	not if there are conj goers about
18:20	Raynes	moogatronic: Well, I certainly didn't get raped last time I did that.
18:20	Raynes	Though I wasn't exactly in a secluded dark alley.
18:22	moogatronic	You can usually tell by the frequency of cop cars per normal car in a neighborhood as to whether or not you should be walking on that street. =)
18:23	moogatronic	hiredman: my only concern is that my hotel is around 1.5 miles from the conference hotel. not a big deal, i'm a decently big guy, but avoiding the tempting of random criminals is always good.
18:23	moogatronic	(speaking from experience -- have been attacked on the street before)
18:23	moogatronic	jiu jitsu comes in handy..
18:23	hiredman	which hotel?
18:23	moogatronic	eh, I took the price line gamble, i'll look
18:24	moogatronic	Holiday Inn Raleigh-Brownstone Downtown
18:24	hiredman	actually if the conj is in the same hotel as last year (I think it is, not sure) the area around it is very empty/office park
18:24	iris1	Dear experts, I have run into what I assume is a minor problem, but I am having trouble figuring it out. I would like to start a SWANK server from leiningen, but when I type "lein swank", it tells me "That's not a task". In order to install SWANK, I have previously typed "lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.3.3" and "lein deps", which seemed to not fail. (Ultimately I am trying to get SLIME working in emacs but I think my problem is that
18:24	iris1	swank" does not work, rather than something on the emacs side.) Please advise. Thank you!
18:24	hiredman	I was in the area for the week following the conj too, walked around a little
18:24	moogatronic	I couldn't afford the full price and i missed the pre-reservation price, because i only found out that I could attend very recently.
18:25	hiredman	oh
18:25	hiredman	no, different hotel
18:25	hiredman	(last year was the hilton)
18:25	hiredman	so I dunno what the area is like
18:25	moogatronic	I suppose we'll find out. =)
18:25	moogatronic	I centered all around atlanta last year at pycon. No muggings. =)
18:26	moogatronic	This fantastic vegan soul food restaurant was in a questionable neighborhood.
18:26	moogatronic	lots of foot-patrol police, squad cars, and shady characters dodging in and out of alleys
18:26	moogatronic	The food was worth it. =)
18:26	moogatronic	gah.. auto-spell correct fail… centered == wandered
18:28	brehaut	moogatronic: if this is mac os x lion, system preferences > lanuage & text > text > correct spelling automatically
18:29	iris1	lein swank
18:29	iris1	(ah sorry, wrong prompt...)
18:29	moogatronic	brehaut: awesome. i was just under the assumption that the latest version of this client added terrible auto-correct.
18:30	brehaut	moogatronic: what client? if its colloquay i'd love to know about a new version
18:30	moogatronic	that client, but i've not ran it for a while, so I figured maybe it auto-updated or something.
18:30	moogatronic	programs sometimes have a mind of their own. =)
18:31	brehaut	moogatronic: haha i wish. i dont think theres been a new release build in 2 years
18:35	moogatronic	like magic. clojure-jack-in and slime-repl.
18:35	moogatronic	=)
18:35	moogatronic	much better
18:37	Raynes	brehaut: Textual is excellent.
18:38	brehaut	Raynes: thanks
18:39	brehaut	Raynes: it looks a lot more like IRC than colloquay ;)
18:39	Raynes	Yeah, I couldn't tolerate colliwhatever.
18:40	moogatronic	ohh nice
18:40	Raynes	It can't handle bouncers over multiple servers properly either.
18:40	Raynes	Textual is fantastic.
18:40	Raynes	Also free if you build it yourself, I think. Cheap if you don't.
18:40	brehaut	Raynes: looks that way; BSD FTW
18:41	moogatronic	that's an interesting way to release software.
18:45	amalloy	isn't that basically how (eg) red-hat works? the code is free, but for $N we'll bundle it up for you and provide some support
18:45	moogatronic	well, i got my emacs24/new clojuremode/latest starter kit working with swank and slime-repl, but now i'm not sure if my libraries are loading.
18:46	technomancy	for a while it was the only way to get gimp on macs
18:46	moogatronic	does clojure-jack-in start a server based on what's in project.clj ?
18:46	amalloy	moogatronic: yes
18:47	moogatronic	it looks like its probably working, but i'm seeing stacktraces when trying to load overtone, I guess its debug time. Was working in my old setup though.
18:47	manutter	hey, has anybody heard from the guy that does jark? His site has been down for a few days.
18:47	manutter	icylisper.in
18:51	moogatronic	thanks for the help wrt my swank/slime/repl setup! dinner time… =)
19:19	zerokarmaleft	oh snap, no rooms left at the sheraton :(
20:30	archaic	juxting zipper fns on a single node is really really nice
20:34	amalloy	~juxt
20:37	amalloy	clojurebot: you okay over there?
21:36	moogatronic	two wins today. new irc client, thanks Raynes for the tip, and my emacs setup has been updated to modern times. =)
21:38	napping	which client?
21:39	moogatronic	Textual
21:39	moogatronic	osx… i guess it's for sale, OR you can just compile it yourself which was easy enough.
21:39	ibdknox	looks a lot like limechat
21:39	moogatronic	i like that it's not occupying as many pixels as possible
21:40	moogatronic	though, I still wish you could run alternate window managers in osx, like xmonad or something.
21:40	napping	lately I've tried ERC a bit
21:40	napping	If only for the TeX input method
21:40	moogatronic	i'm slowly coming up to speed on various emacs things.
21:41	moogatronic	i use emacs/org-mode/babel/r daily.
21:41	brandel	moogatronic: there are some utils that give you window snapping in os x.. not quite xmonad, but better than the defaults
21:41	moogatronic	fantastic for the tex output / literate programming
21:41	moogatronic	brandel: i have a divvy license, it's pretty nice
21:41	moogatronic	but it's not automatic.
21:42	moogatronic	i can quickly tile a few arrangements with some quick key tapping. =)
21:42	moogatronic	napping: does ERC interpret TeX from others in the chat window?
21:42	brandel	yeah I know what you mean, I do like xmonad
21:43	brandel	you could check out SizeUp - it gives you bindings for moving windows around
21:43	archaic	moogatronic: are you using clojure in babel?
21:44	moogatronic	archaic: not yet. currently all of my babel use is for course assignments.
21:44	moogatronic	archaic: have you?
21:45	archaic	ahh just wondering - its easy to setup in emacs 23 but 24 is real painful
21:45	archaic	i was hoping to copy your 24 config if you were :)
21:45	moogatronic	I do have one little problem with my LaTeX output… When I generate my document, it specifies the language syntax as R, capital R, but pygments expects lowercase r...
21:46	moogatronic	Well, my config for generating xelatexable docs from org worked in 24, but it was only running R.
21:46	moogatronic	just this evening tho, i refreshed my configs and upgraded to the latest emacs starter kit, clojuremode, etc..
21:46	moogatronic	so i have to backport all of my customizations.
21:46	moogatronic	using the ugly default color scheme even.. but i was too excited to get going with some Overtone hacking
21:46	moogatronic	(to the dismay of my wife)
21:47	archaic	i was using default color scheme fairly long time, then i found https://github.com/sellout/emacs-color-theme-solarized
21:47	brandel	wives often seem to be a in state of dismay I find.
21:48	brandel	at least mine is.
21:48	moogatronic	brandel: haha! mine gets cranky when my studio monitors are cranked and I am generating random saw waves.
21:48	moogatronic	brandel: but I know what you mean. =)
21:49	brandel	you should give her brief respites with sine waves
21:49	moogatronic	she's been trained a bit.. sometimes I make beats and play with samples… and sometimes the same 3 seconds for hours.
21:49	moogatronic	then there's the moog voyager.
21:49	moogatronic	=)
21:49	moogatronic	i've been commanded to wear headphones.
21:51	brandel	I've done some composition in logic - worth exploring Overtone? it's more geared towards generated/algorithmic music right?
21:51	moogatronic	well, that's how I am planning to use it anyway. =)
21:51	napping	moogatronic: It's just for typing in unicode
21:52	brandel	can you wire up midi triggers?
21:53	moogatronic	I wanted a really solid reason to learn clojure that I could justfiy time wise… so it's now a course project to use bioinspired computing (evolutionary and other algorithms) to build something fun.
21:53	moogatronic	brandel: not sure yet.
21:53	moogatronic	brandel: I'm a major noob on many fronts at current moment.
21:54	brandel	sounds neat. meh everyone is a noob at most things.
21:54	moogatronic	yeah, you have to be a noob at everything at some point in time. i've just been admiring clojure from afar for too long now.
21:55	moogatronic	i naively thought that leaving full time employment and starting a PhD would free up time for explorations like this.
21:55	moogatronic	LOL.. wrong.
21:55	moogatronic	though, as long as I work it in somehow, it is no longer "playing".. it's "working". =)
21:57	moogatronic	archaic: everyone loves solarized it seems. I should give it a shot. I do prefer any non-white background. and inconsolata.
23:55	hiredman	~ping
23:55	clojurebot	PONG!