#clojure – 2011-10-26

2011-10-26

00:00	brehaut	,(apropos #"^[^]+\$")
00:00	clojurebot	(list* with-bindings* bound-fn*)
00:01	brehaut	huh. less than i expected
00:01	brehaut	or i screwed up my regexp
00:01	aperiodic	is the half-earmuff a common idiom? i've seen it in a few places but i'm not exactly sure what it indicates
00:02	amalloy	brehaut: well, it's not correct in the strictest sense, but i don't think it matters given the names in clojure.core
00:02	tdrgabi	,(apropos #"\*")
00:02	clojurebot	(compile-path list* 3 2 ns ...)
00:02	amalloy	since you'd fail to match on names like mathematical--function
00:02	seancorfield_	i inherited it from c.c.sql so i didn't know whether it was idiomatic or not
00:03	miclorb_	amalloy: thanks for (list*) pointer - handy !
00:03	technomancy	seancorfield: it's fine
00:03	brehaut	,(apropos #"^[^].+\$") ; amalloy, better?
00:03	clojurebot	(list* with-bindings* bound-fn*)
00:03	seancorfield_	i kinda got the impression that folks used it where they had some macro foo, that was implemented with a function foo*
00:04	seancorfield_	but the library coding guidelines say to write functions first and add macros only where they help with use
00:04	amalloy	brehaut: yeah, though you still miss functions like f*
00:04	seancorfield_	which would speak _against_ foo* functions
00:04	brehaut	amalloy: now i have two problems
00:04	amalloy	chuckle
00:05	seancorfield_	,(apropos #"^[^].\*$")
00:05	clojurebot	(list* with-bindings* bound-fn*)
00:05	seancorfield_	i see no f* :)
00:06	seancorfield_	oh great, now i'm reading email in evolution and i want to press C-v to page down... sigh
00:07	ibdknox_	in Korma I used select* and so on for the function equivalents of macros
00:07	technomancy	seancorfield_: you were warned this might happen, right? =)
00:07	technomancy	seancorfield_: I highly recommend http://conkeror.org
00:08	technomancy	because a browser that doesn't have dotfiles is hardly a browser at all
00:08	ibdknox_	technomancy: lol, did you go to that link?
00:09	ibdknox_	technomancy: [Errno 122] Disk quota exceeded:
00:09	ibdknox_	:D
00:09	technomancy	ibdknox_: oh noes!
00:09	aperiodic	seancorfield_: i've seen it used in that general pattern, but where both foo and foo* are functions
00:12	aperiodic	i dunno, primes can be overlooked much more easily than stars
00:16	jkkramer	&(let [a' 1] (inc a'))
00:16	lazybot	⇒ 2
00:17	brehaut	jkkramer: how long has that been the case?
00:17	jkkramer	brehaut: since 1.3
00:17	brehaut	aha!
00:17	brehaut	(inc jkkramer)
00:17	lazybot	⇒ 2
00:17	jkkramer	because of ##(doc +')
00:17	lazybot	⇒ "([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns the sum of nums. (+) returns 0. Supports arbitrary precision. See also: +"
00:18	brehaut	so is +' 1.2's + ?
00:19	brehaut	##(doc +'')
00:19	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: +'' in this context
00:19	brehaut	oh. haha
00:19	brehaut	##(doc +)
00:19	lazybot	⇒ "([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns the sum of nums. (+) returns 0. Does not auto-promote longs, will throw on overflow. See also: +'"
00:37	mindbender1	please can someone recommend the best way to manage images on a website for someone who wants to operate something like a social network
00:45	technomancy	if you use the actual unicode prime mark it works in 1.3
00:45	technomancy	1.2 rather
00:47	technomancy	apostrophes are for weaklings
00:48	aperiodic	,(let [☃ :frosty] (print-str ☃))
00:48	amalloy	technomancy: it's also a big savings on source-code size since you can use ⁗ instead of '''' for very-internal functions
00:48	clojurebot	":frosty"
00:49	aperiodic	awesome
00:51	aperiodic	,(let [☃ "frosty"] (print-str ☃ "the" '☃))
00:51	clojurebot	"frosty the ☃"
01:13	seancorfield_	i liked the trick posted on the ML to allow code that needs +' etc to work on both 1.2 and 1.3...
01:13	seancorfield_	(def plus (first [+' +]))
01:13	seancorfield_	on 1.2, that parses as [+ '+] and yields +
01:14	seancorfield_	on 1.3, it parses as [+' +] and yields +'
01:14	seancorfield_	helped me get clojure.math.numeric-tower passing the test suite on 1.2!
01:14	amalloy	seancorfield_: you're welcome :)
01:15	seancorfield_	sorry, couldn't remember who posted it
01:16	seancorfield_	hope i credited you in the code :(
01:16	amalloy	heh
01:18	seancorfield_	apologies... i did not credit you... i'll add that next time i touch that code...
01:19	amalloy	seancorfield_: no worries
01:28	amalloy	i signed the CA, rich probably owns any code i write for the rest of my life anyway
02:27	spoon16	best way to go from (\a \b \c \d \e \f) -> ((\a \b) (\c \d) (\e \f))
02:27	spoon16	?
02:27	amalloy	&(doc partition)
02:27	lazybot	⇒ "([n coll] [n step coll] [n step pad coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of lists of n items each, at offsets step apart. If step is not supplied, defaults to n, i.e. the partitions do not overlap. If a pad collection is supplied, use its elements as necessary to compl... https://gist.github.com/1315613
02:27	mbac	yeah that
02:34	hiredman	partition-all
02:34	hiredman	partition will bite you
02:37	amalloy	ah, good point. i use (partition 2 1 coll) so often that i forgot (partition 2 coll) has gotchas
04:32	kzar	I'm scraping a webpage that's massive (about 7 megs at the moment), so I just want to grab the first part of the page. I'm going to be parsing it lazily as it comes in and I want to avoid waiting for the whole thing to download first. Is java.io.reader the right thing to use to grab the page?
04:41	kzar	Or, actually I've realised I can't parse it lazily because xml library doesn't like the badly written html and the html parsing libraries aren't designed for massive files. Is there a way to say (head rdr 200) or something to just grab the first 200 lines?
04:44	kzar	Best I can figure is to do do (take 200 (line-seq rdr)) and then join lines back up again, seems crap though
04:45	tsdh	Hi. I've taken clojure.xml and adapted it to create another output structure. It works pretty well, except that it doesn't recognize attributes as IDs or IDREFs. I've set the SAXParserFactory to create a validating parser, but that seems to do the trick only for DTDs. Ok, I could use SAXParserFactory/setSchema, but I want it to get the declared schemas automagically. Is there something like that, or do I need to
04:45	tsdh	reimplement all the stuff using javax.xml.streams?
05:09	raek	kzar: to answer the original question: yes, Readers (text) and InputStreams (binary) are Java's stream abstractions. I you open a stream for a file, the data will be read incrementally (i.e. not in one big blob)
05:10	raek	(those classes have annoying constructors, so clojure.java.io makes it much simpler to "just get a stream")
05:10	kzar	raek: It's working great, I just need to figure out a way to do a head on the reader now. my first (simplistic) attempt was (defn head [rdr lines] (apply str (take lines (line-seq rdr))))
05:10	kzar	raek: But ideally I don't want to do it like that, I want to keep the buffered reader but just have it stop after x lines or x characters
05:10	raek	kzar: what kind of unit of data are you interested in? bytes, chars or lines?
05:11	kzar	raek: I'm interested in lines but ideally I don't want to mess up the formatting, my example above strips the newlines unless I try and put them back in
05:12	raek	kzar: https://gist.github.com/661631
05:12	raek	those examples give you a sequence of bytes or characters
05:14	raek	kzar: you can use the java methods directly to a byte, line, or char. clojure does only have a function to make a lazy seq of the lines
05:14	raek	so don't be afraid to dive into the java stuff when doing IO
05:15	kzar	raek: Aha, gotya. So really I can take line-seq source and add in a limit like you've done in those examples
05:15	raek	oh, the first example has a bug...
05:16	raek	I haven't exactly added a limit
05:16	raek	(take n lazy-seq-of-something) would be to add a limit
05:16	kzar	raek: Oh wait, as well the thing I'm using it for expects something like a reader. Surely a lazy seq doesn't help me
05:17	raek	if you just look at the first n lines of the result of (line-seq ..), you will only read enough to get you those n lines
05:17	raek	(plus some extra chars, depending on the buffer size it uses internally)
05:18	raek	kzar: you can implement your own Reader (e.g. with proxy) that reads from another Reader, but stops at a given number of chars, or something similar
05:19	raek	kzar: a lazy seq is like an immutable and persistent version of a stream or iterator
05:22	raek	kzar: so, to add a limit in clojure-land you just use 'take'. in java-land you implement a wrapper class for Reader.
05:24	kzar	raek: Yea gotya, I'm thinking taking x lines, joining them and then converting back into a reader is a bit ugly. I'm having a look at doing your proxy idea
05:26	robermann	kzar: you could use a BufferedReader
05:27	robermann	http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/io/BufferedReader.html
05:27	kzar	robermann: Yea I am but I need a limit to what it reads, so I'm making a proxy of it to add the limit
05:27	kzar	robermann: Otherwise the things that uses it grabs too much and dies
05:27	raek	calling 'clojure.java.io/reader' will wrap the reder in a BufferedReader automatically
05:28	robermann	you coud call the constructor with the size limit
05:28	raek	(buffered reader is what gives you the readLine method)
05:28	robermann	and exit on the first .read
05:28	robermann	or http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/io/BufferedReader.html#read%28char[],%20int,%20int%29
05:28	robermann	read just a chunk of an array
05:29	robermann	when that read returns, you can throw away your BufferedReader
05:32	robermann	probably the problem is not the bufferedreader, but the destination string which is going too long
05:32	kzar	robermann: Yea but I can't change that part
05:32	kzar	Well I had a change of heart, after looking into the proxy thing it seemed to be a bit tricky so I've done this (defn head [rdr lines] (java.io.StringReader. (apply str (take lines (line-seq rdr)))))
05:32	kzar	pretty shoddy I know!
05:37	Blkt	good morning everyone
05:38	kzar	raek: Defo going to do a bit of reading on proxies and things soon though, can't keep bodging my way along!
05:40	raek	kzar: well that code does what it supposed to do...
05:41	raek	the only improvement you get from making a custom Reader implementation is more laziness
05:41	raek	which maybe is not that big deal for a fixed size sequence
05:48	kzar	raek: Yea, it has to all get read for the html parser which isn't lazy anyway. I didn't have time to dick around with it too much today so it's a good solution for now. Don't like taking the easy way out though, would prefer to do it right but nevermind!
06:25	Arafangion	kzar: Which html parser?
06:28	kzar	Arafangion: I'm using enlive, the html-resource function. So now instead of passing it (URL. "url..") I pass it a Stringreader that's made from taking the first x lines from a clojure.java.io.reader of the url
06:29	kzar	Arafangion: https://github.com/marktriggs/xml-picker-seq let's you handle this sort of thing better but it is for XML so badly formed HTML is a no-go
06:29	Arafangion	kzar: That's the trouble with html. :/
06:30	kzar	Arafangion: Yea, on the plus side though the html parser didn't bawk when the file is truncated so my hack works
06:30	Arafangion	kzar: Nasty. ;)
06:33	erldave	is this the right place to ask general programming questions on clojure? or is there a different channel?
06:36	ejackson	erldave: this is the place, although the time is often later once the US has awoken :)
06:37	erldave	my question is pretty basic: trying to work out how I should re-code this kind of java style idiom
06:37	erldave	java: class MyObjectCollection { Map<String, Object> all; public void add(String key, obj).... public Object get(String key) }
06:38	erldave	create one of those, use it to keep a big collection of objects / clojure maps
06:38	Arafangion	erldave: What's wrong with a Map?
06:38	erldave	in clojure, would you do this using atoms?
06:38	ejackson	erldave: it depends entire on your concurrency needs
06:38	erldave	where does the map live?
06:38	erldave	I have no concurrency req at the moment
06:38	ejackson	if there is no concurrency that an atom is an nice easy choice
06:39	ejackson	its the closest thing that Clojure has to a 'variable'
06:39	erldave	so put the map into an atom, wrap it with a few functions to add and get from whatever version of the map that is in the atom?
06:39	ejackson	yup.
06:39	erldave	cool, this is my first venture into writing any actual code, so didn't want to get step one completely wrong :-)
06:39	erldave	ta
06:39	ejackson	there is no wrong.
06:40	ejackson	not on the first step anyway
06:40	erldave	really, I've seen plenty of (java) code that would indicate that statement is not accurate
06:40	ejackson	:)
06:42	ejackson	erldave: if its just a map you're storing remember that you can use the keys as 'accessors'. so (:key @my-map-containing-atom) will give you the current value of :key in the map.
06:42	ejackson	no need for fancy footwork
06:43	erldave	yep, I was thinking more of the reading functions iterating over the whole map to filter the (complexish) contents
06:44	erldave	so I guess they could just work on the deref'd atom
06:45	erldave	I've read a lot about clojure, just never actually written any code, so lots of concepts floating around in my head, I think now I need to get in there, and was stuck at first hurdle...
06:45	ejackson	zakly
06:45	ejackson	enjoy, enjoy.
06:45	erldave	thanks
07:09	kzar	I've got a lein project that's a noir webserver, when I type `lein run` the webserver launches. I now need to add a command to run a background job, my first approach was to add a lein plugin called cron that ran my code. Two problems though, it's a bit ugly adding loads of dependencies into dev-dependencies and worse a new clojure process is started when you run `lein cron`. Is there a way another way to add a shell
07:09	kzar	command that runs some part of my code in the existing java process?
07:17	erldave	do you mean you want to run your process as a daemon, i.e. in the background?
07:18	kzar	erldave: I want a shell command that runs some code in my project, in the already running process containing the webserver
07:19	erldave	have you considered using http://clojuredocs.org/swank-clojure/swank.swank/start-repl in your running code?
07:19	erldave	then you could attach to that and run your code
07:20	erldave	although it opens a big door, you'd want to be very sure that nobody else had access
07:20	cemerick	Running a repl server with an appropriate firewall and an ssh tunnel is perfectly pleasant.
07:38	kzar	erldave: Hmm but I need to trigger the code from a shell command
07:51	kzar	Hmm well I found that lein -run let's you specifc the namespace and function, so at least I can use that to run the code quite easily. No idea how to get it in the same process though
08:39	gensym``	Moinsen
08:39	gensym``	(wrong channel)
09:10	lucian	i'm spoilt by python's stack traces. is there something equivalent for clojure@
09:10	lucian	telling me there's a nullpointerexception somewhere in my program doesn't help
09:11	llasram	lucian: https://github.com/mmcgrana/clj-stacktrace can help
09:11	llasram	(I'm assuming you're running in a raw REPL and not in SLIME via swank or such?)
09:12	lucian	llasram: yeah, raw repl
09:13	lucian	hmm, it assumes a project
09:13	lucian	llasram: haven't gotten around to setting up emacs with clojure and a good vim mode
09:17	raek	lucian: in a raw repl, type (.printStackTrace *e) to get the stack trace
09:21	raek	that should give you source file and line numbers too
09:39	Arafangion	lucian: I use vimpulse, but evil's the hot new kid.
09:40	lucian	Arafangion: i tried evil, seems nice. but it appears i'll have to learn some emacs commands for things like clojure
09:40	Arafangion	lucian: You should, but at least with vimpulse, you don't have to make a completely clean break.
09:41	Arafangion	lucian: Also, evil gives sane buffer switching.
09:41	lucian	with evil, you just press ctrl-z to go to emacs-mode
09:41	lucian	and i noticed i can just do alt-bla directly from insert or normal mode
09:41	Arafangion	Same - evil is basically vimpulse revised.
09:41	lucian	sane buffer switching sounds good
09:42	Arafangion	Also, unlike vim, emacs won't hang while trying to syntax colourise your text. :)
09:54	lucian	Arafangion: heh
09:55	lucian	Arafangion: it still hangs while package.el fetches things
09:57	Arafangion	I haven't gotten that far with my emacs education :)
09:57	Arafangion	But vim would regularly hang while editing or loading files. :(
10:00	mindbender1	please I'm getting error in process filter: Symbol's value as variable is void: Listening when trying to clojure-jack-in to a project
10:01	mindbender1	I'm using emacs-snapshot
10:04	jweiss	I have a map of test names to the result of the test. The results are promises that are delivered when the test completes. I need the blocking behavior of the promise to delay dependent tests until their deps have completed. But I'd also like to use watchers so I can use callbacks to notify others about tests failing/skipping/whatever. any suggestions for how to get both features?
10:05	lucian	Arafangion: oh, it's not far. i was looking for packages, and google got me to marmalade (package repo)
10:39	lucian	odd. 4clojure gives me "java.security.PrivilegedActionException: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to clojure.lang.MapEntry ", but it works in the repl just fine
10:40	jweiss	lucian: i think that's because 4clojure is in a 'jail' environment where it won't let you wreak havoc with the host system
10:41	lucian	jweiss: i know that, but i can't see what i'm doing wrong
10:42	lucian	https://gist.github.com/1316540
10:42	lucian	i can't see where i'm turning vectors into maps
10:44	jweiss	lucian: me either :)
10:45	jweiss	lucian: maybe card fn is being called with a single string instead of a list
10:45	jweiss	or other way around
10:47	bhenry	,(let [s (first "D5") r (last "D5")] [s r])
10:47	clojurebot	[\D \5]
10:47	lucian	jweiss: hmm. afaict it's being called with strings
10:47	lucian	jweiss: i want to split the string in two http://www.4clojure.com/problem/128
10:51	jweiss	lucian: i tried putting the calc of suit and rank in the let, and just plugging the values into the map literal
10:52	jweiss	then it gives "You tripped the alarm! catch is bad!"
10:53	jweiss	https://gist.github.com/1316582
10:53	jweiss	sorry for ugly indenting
10:57	bhenry	jweiss that's only because it makes the catch trip the alarm before it gets to the error.
10:58	jweiss	bhenry: so the error is in constructing the map literal then?
10:58	bhenry	apparently
10:58	bhenry	can't tell you why though
10:58	lucian	hmm
10:59	jweiss	maybe the catch inside the literal just hides the real problem, which is the catch
10:59	lucian	jweiss: precisely, it seems
10:59	lucian	changed to hash-map and now it tells me catch is bad
11:00	bhenry	i did it without catch and get the same error.
11:01	bhenry	i just converted 2-A characters to the appropriate rank inside case, and it still did the same thing.
11:03	bhenry	jweiss, lucian: my fn works in my repl, but not in 4clojure
11:04	bhenry	https://gist.github.com/e4c60f16c99ea9b30bb7 works in emacs repl. fails with 4clojure error that lucian first saw
11:04	lucian	bhenry: same for mine
11:05	lucian	ok, that's just weird
11:08	lucian	it would appear that 4clojure bans returning maps
11:10	dpritchett	Has anyone here ever heard of an ORM that automatically detects the structure of a SQL table so that it can handle writes to tables with arbitrary compound key structures?
11:11	lucian	dpritchett: they usually require migration before anything like that. but clojureql seems general enough to handle anything
11:11	dpritchett	thanks lucian
11:12	dpritchett	i'm trying to figure out how to get from a json object to an "update x set values a b c d where keys are j k l m" sort of a statement
11:23	kzar	Can you use defmethod between namespaces? Say if I have a different namespace for each seperate parser and I want each one to add a method to the parse multimethod for it's type of file. (I could just add them all in the place I've made the multimethod but then I have to require/use all the parser namespaces + it seems a bit crap.)
11:24	cemerick	kzar: certainly
11:24	cemerick	(defmethod other-ns/multimethod :dispatch-val …)
11:26	kzar	cemerick: Oh cool :)
11:31	pjstadig	you would still have to (require other-ns) or (use [other-ns :only multimethod])
11:32	lnostdal	wierd .. enlive strips the xmlns away from the html tag here
11:35	kzar	lnostdal: I saw it mentioned somewhere that namespaces aren't supported
11:35	kzar	pjstadig: thanks, good point
11:37	lnostdal	kzar, ok, yeah, i tried loading the resource using xml-resource instead of html-resource .. that seems to not strip it away
11:38	kzar	lnostdal: Yea, just found it at the bottom of the github page: "No namespaces support (hence unsuitable for most XML)"
11:40	zilti	I have some problems with the custom-dialog from seesaw. It says "usage: (custom-dialog & {:keys [width height visible? modal? on-close size], :or {width 100, height 100, visible? false}, :as opts})" But I don't know how to read that stuff. (custom-dialog {:keys [:width 400 :height 200 :visible? true :modal? true]} ;content here; does not seem to work
11:45	simard	is there a gain when running clojure on a 64 bits jvm instead of a 32 bits one ?
11:49	jweiss	is add-watch really still alpha? or i should ask, is it unwise to rely on it still?
11:52	duck1123	simard: there's a gain if you want to use a whole bunch of memory
11:53	jkkramer	zilti: that's map destructuring. it expects something like (custom-dialog :width 400 :height 400 :visible? true :modal? true)
11:57	llasram`	duck1123, simard: I think there'd also be a big gain with Clojure 1.3 for primitive math ops, since they're all in terms of (64-bit) longs
12:10	AWizzArd2	For Leingen I saw some days ago an example of how to block it from checking the maven repo. It was a combination of setting :omit-default-repositories to true and a manual :repositories entry. Does anyone have a link?
12:11	scgilardi	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/211 may have a pointer to useful info
12:15	AWizzArd2	scgilardi: ah hmm yes, I may have read this in one of the issues. So, perhaps I could just configure the repo "central" and point it to a bogus URL. I will try that.
12:16	duck1123	you might also be able to pull something off with ~/.m2/settings.xml leiningen uses that, right?
12:18	AWizzArd2	I could also try to make a host entry that blocks central.
12:22	duck1123	so was :omit-default-repositories true not working for you?
12:22	duck1123	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/1.x/sample.project.clj#L122
12:28	AWizzArd2	It works for me. But I don't want it to go to central.
12:28	AWizzArd2	I want it to only go to my Artifactory repo.
12:29	AWizzArd2	But before I tell it about this repo I first want to make sure that my minimal showcase project.clj file can not successfuly download anything. From that point on I will try to get it using my own repo.
12:30	simard	when typing "lein repl" it says "REPL started; server listening on localhost port 4005" but "netstat -a" doesn't list port 4005 as being listened to, what's wrong ?
12:31	duck1123	AWizzArd2: Artifactory should give you some code you can put into the m2 settings, I'd start there
12:31	simard	lol, ok forget it, I'm wrong
12:35	technomancy	kzar: if you're still figuring out lein run, you can set LEIN_NO_DEV to keep dev deps and test/ off the classpath
12:37	kzar	technomancy: I'm OK thanks, I realised lein run has an optional parameter for ns/function. So I've used that to launch my worker. It works OK but doesn't start in same java process, still good enough for now anyway
12:37	technomancy	yeah, you need to start a repl listener if you want it to be in the same process
12:37	technomancy	maybe jark could do that
12:38	duck1123	I just open up a nrepl and a swank connection inside of my -main. that way I can just lein run and I'm all ready to go
12:38	kzar	Hey if I want a lazy-seq of the result of running a function with side-effects is this the cleanest way? (take-while identity (repeatedly side-effect-fn))
12:41	duck1123	kzar: when dealing with side effects and lazy seqs, chunking is probably going to kill you
12:41	kzar	duck1123: How do you mean?
12:42	duck1123	kzar: this might help https://github.com/duck1123/ciste/blob/master/src/ciste/routes.clj#L8
12:42	duck1123	kzar: there's the posibility that more records will be realized than you actually want
12:43	duck1123	although I don't know if repeatedly does that
12:45	duck1123	I think the 'next' in that fn is actually supposed to be 'rest' I saw someone else post roughly the exact same thing the other day
12:46	llasram`	`repeatedly' doesn't appear to produce a chunked seq
12:46	llasram`	,(let [x (atom 0)] (dorun (take 10 (repeatedly #(swap! x inc)))) @x)
12:46	clojurebot	10
12:46	llasram`	But still, probably not best practice to depend on that
12:47	daaku	is there a way to break a regex specified using #"xx"? i'm a bit pedantic about 80-col
12:47	daaku	s/break a regex/break a regex into multiple lines/
12:48	duck1123	daaku: you could str a bunch of segments together, then compile the result as a pattern
12:49	duck1123	,(doc re-pattern)
12:49	clojurebot	"([s]); Returns an instance of java.util.regex.Pattern, for use, e.g. in re-matcher."
12:50	daaku	cool, thanks duck1123
12:59	duck1123	I'm looking for something like DaemonKit's exception logger in Clojure. Something that can take an exception and log the stack trace in a log-friendly manner. Does anyone know of something like that already? http://rdoc.info/github/kennethkalmer/daemon-kit/master/DaemonKit/AbstractLogger:exception
13:00	ibdknox	technomancy, ping
13:00	chouser	daaku: #"(?x) .... whitespace ignored in here, should be able to line-wrap"
13:00	technomancy	ibdknox: what are the haps
13:02	ibdknox	technomancy, this issue is cropping up with people trying to do file uploads with noir: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/262
13:02	ibdknox	technomancy, and I didn't fully understand what the fix was
13:02	technomancy	ibdknox: 1.6.1.1 was basically fixing just that bug.
13:02	ibdknox	technomancy, awesome, so they just need to upgrade lein?
13:02	technomancy	if they're seeing it in 1.6.1.1 then it means someone else is peeing in the thread pool
13:02	technomancy	yeah
13:03	ibdknox	fantastic
13:03	technomancy	I'll add a comment to that specific issue
13:03	ibdknox	technomancy, thank you sir :)
13:03	technomancy	np
13:08	kzar	So I've got a multimethod in one namespace, I've got methods for it in other namespaces. I tried to do something like this http://goo.gl/z3RNU to require all the other namespaces but I get a cyclical dependency error. I understand why but equally if I can't force the other namespaces to be loaded none of the methds for my multimethod will be avaliable for use
13:15	daaku	chouser: can't seem to figure out how to make it work. here's what i've tried: https://gist.github.com/34cc0f9b5076ebac3f2b -- i seem to get exceptions in parsing the regex if i try to split it up
13:17	chouser	daaku: you need the leading (?x), after which whitespace (and regex comments) are ignored
13:17	chouser	oh, sorry
13:17	llasram`	kzar: one namespace does defmulti, other namespaces defmethod, then a final namespace to pull in defmulti and defmethod namespaces?
13:17	chouser	hang on
13:20	duck1123	cyclical dependencies are clojure's way of telling you that you that you're not using enough namespaces
13:21	dnolen	duck1123: or that you have too many ;)
13:23	duck1123	kzar: If you're willing to use Ciste's config and environment system, you could use definitializer to defer loading some parts of your code. https://github.com/duck1123/ciste/blob/master/src/ciste/config.clj#L82
13:24	chouser	daaku: you have to escape the #'s, since they're being understood as comment-to-end-of-line
13:24	chouser	daaku: replace every # with \# and you'll be all set
13:26	daaku	chouser: you sir are awesome
13:26	daaku	chouser: thank you
13:27	chouser	daaku: np
13:28	chouser	though I have to say -- a regex being multiline is probably a little hint that you should be solving your problem a different way.
13:33	michael_campbell	jwz's quote comes to mind.
13:33	TimMc	2 problems?
13:33	michael_campbell	exactly
14:23	zilti	I have a collection of items, a map and a function. Now I basically want to (fun (nth coll 0) (fun (nth coll 1) (fun (nth coll 2) mp))) recursively apply the function to the result of the previous call. Is there some "for"-like way to do this or do I have to use loop or recursion with manual end-of-collection-detection?
14:23	licenser	zilti: reduce?
14:24	zilti	licenser: Thanks!
14:24	raek	(reduce f 0 [1 2 3 4]) is the same as (f (f (f (f 0 1) 2) 3) 4)
14:24	licenser	:)
14:25	zilti	:)
14:25	raek	so you might need to flip the argument order
14:26	zilti	No need for that in my case, the order doesn't matter
14:26	licenser	is fun + :)
14:26	zilti	But good to know
14:27	TimMc	zilti: What are you doing with the map?
14:27	TimMc	There may be a better way to do what you want to do.
14:29	zilti	TimMc: What alternatives are there?
14:32	raek	if mp is {} and fun is (fn [m x] (update-in m [x] (fnil inc 0))), you can use frequencies instead
14:32	zilti	TimMc: Actually each entry in the collection is a collection itself, containing four booleans. The map contains, besides other stuff, :vspeed and :hspeed. Those are set to zero if certain booleans are true (it's a collision detection for a small game)
14:36	kylpo	ibdknox: Where do you work again? I don't see it on your blog.
14:37	ibdknox	kylpo, ReadyForZero
14:37	kylpo	ibdknox: thanks
14:38	kylpo	ibdknox: Oooh, has it switch off of Django and onto Noir?
14:39	ibdknox	launching tomorrow :)
14:39	ibdknox	so yep
14:42	jodaro	nice
14:43	ibdknox	I've built several other sites with Noir though, outside of just ReadyForZero's
14:43	jodaro	oh hey, you guys are near me
14:43	jodaro	i'm at 2nd and folsom
14:43	ibdknox	haha
14:43	ibdknox	sweet
14:44	ibdknox	jodaro, where do you work?
14:44	jodaro	symantec
14:44	jodaro	"messaging and web security" group
14:44	jodaro	or whatever the hell they've decided to call it this week
14:44	ibdknox	lol
14:45	ibdknox	jodaro, we're hiring, if you want to move down the road ;)
14:45	technomancy	so can someone explain to me the actual problem that your typical "clean" task is meant to solve?
14:45	technomancy	(leiningen or otherwise)
14:45	jodaro	rm -rf
14:45	ibdknox	technomancy, old versions of generated files sticking around for whatever reason
14:46	jodaro	except the good parts
14:46	technomancy	ibdknox: right, but I need more detail on "for whatever reason" =)
14:46	technomancy	because it seems like the kind of thing you shouldn't have to worry about
14:46	moomin	I'm a bit puzzled about the behaviour of non-dynamic vars. How come alter-var-root works, but nothing else does?
14:46	chouser	frequently clean is used to cover errors in dep rules
14:46	jodaro	makes more sense in like c/c++ builds
14:46	pjstadig	there are also packaging files generated
14:46	jodaro	remove all the .o and whatnot
14:46	technomancy	we established one reason .class files would stick around longer than necessary was due to a shortcoming of leiningen's handling of a certain condition
14:46	pjstadig	that you may want to delete
14:47	jodaro	i guess .class files too, yeah
14:47	technomancy	pjstadig: I don't understand why that should be conflated with bytecode though
14:47	technomancy	it seems like they are separate issues
14:47	pjstadig	sure, but usually a clean task cleans everything
14:47	technomancy	pjstadig: yeah, right now it is totally a cargo-cult thing
14:47	technomancy	"clean does this because clean has always done this"
14:48	jodaro	tradition!
14:48	technomancy	jodaro: I read that as being sung a la Fiddler on the Roof
14:48	technomancy	I hope that's what you intended
14:48	jodaro	exactly what i intended.
14:48	hiredman	moomin: nothing else meaning, what? binding? that is exactly what non-dynamic means, no binding
14:48	jodaro	i even stood on my desk and yelled it in my best yiddish accent
14:49	jodaro	now my coworkers are afraid
14:49	todun	help: is there a way to pass a symbol from a function to a macro? As an example, http://pastebin.com/JCg7MfUS thanks.
14:49	zilti	technomancy: Is it possible that leiningen gets delivered with swank-clojure 1.3.2? I found out that the reason why on my two PCs the swank task wasn't available was because I had both swank-clojure 1.3.2 and 1.3.3. It worked fine after uninstalling one of them
14:49	hiredman	now break in to "if I were a rich man..."
14:50	technomancy	zilti: yeah, it definitely gets confused; am working on a fix for that in 1.6.2
14:50	technomancy	jodaro: extra style points for you!
14:50	jodaro	hiredman: i like to change it to "when i am a rich man ...", the power of positive thinking
14:50	moomin	Sorry, yes. I think I just don't understand why alter-var-root still works.
14:50	moomin	I'd have assumed it meant that you couldn't remap the var to anything else.
14:51	hiredman	it means you can only change the value of the var globally
14:52	moomin	Ah, so it simply means no per-thread bindings.
14:53	hiredman	well per thread bindings are dynamic scope, so removing that gives you non-dynamic vars
14:53	moomin	Ah ok.
14:53	moomin	Is there an easier way to redefine a var than alter-var-root?
14:54	hiredman	don't
14:54	duck1123	if you alter-var-root a ref while another thread is in a dosync, does that thread still get consistent values?
14:54	hiredman	alter-var-root and friends should really only be used in tests for mocking/stubbing
14:54	moomin	That's exactly what I'm trying to use them for. :)
14:55	hiredman	1.3 comes with a with-redefs you might find useful then
14:55	hiredman	,(doc with-redefs)
14:55	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); binding => var-symbol temp-value-expr Temporarily redefines Vars while executing the body. The temp-value-exprs will be evaluated and each resulting value will replace in parallel the root value of its Var. After the body is executed, the root values of all the Vars will be set back to their old values. These temporary changes will be visible in all threads. Useful for mockin...
14:55	pjstadig	duck1123: alter-var-root is for vars, when using a ref you would use ref-set, which is transactionally safe
14:56	moomin	Ah, perfect.
14:56	moomin	Hadn't understood the distinction between bindings and redefs. Thankyou very much.
14:58	duck1123	pjstadig: right, but you store refs in a var. My question was if you redef that var in the middle of a dosync, then it will read that var as a different ref. I was wondering if you still get that consistency.
14:59	duck1123	I'm thinking no, which is all the more reason why altering vars like that can be dangerous
15:10	fdaoud	jimduey: I listened to your talk about monads. Thanks for pointing me to it, it was excellent!
15:11	jimduey	thanks for the compliment. feel free to hit me up if you have any questions.
15:11	fdaoud	I do have one question if you have a minute
15:11	jimduey	sure
15:12	fdaoud	there was just one thing I wasn't clear on (ok a few things, but most of them are just a matter of sitting down, trying stuff, and figuring it out)
15:12	fdaoud	when you said you could easily go from the list monad to the set monad, so that you could have unique values without changing any other code
15:13	fdaoud	it seems that the half-double and increase functions did have to be rewritten to use (hash-set ...) instead of (list ...)
15:13	fdaoud	I would have thought those functions were part of the code that wouldn't have to be changed..?
15:13	TimMc	todun: Macros rewrite syntax, they don't accept runtime values.
15:14	todun	TimMc: ok. thanks. So there is no way to achieve the same goal?
15:14	TimMc	todun: I couldn't understand your paste, so I don't know.
15:15	todun	TimMc: the code example or my question?
15:15	jimduey	fdaoud: you might be able to get a way with not changing those since both the set and the list have list interfaces.
15:16	jimduey	but you're right, it would probably be more correct to change those as well.
15:16	jimduey	the point I was shooting for was you didn't have to change the structure of the domonad forms.
15:17	fliebel	Is there any Clojure lib for interacting with IMAP and SMTP?
15:17	fdaoud	jimduey: understood. thanks! this is really interesting, and I am particularly intrigued by your Ring experiment.
15:18	fdaoud	Ring is a great example for us web developers because it gives us a concrete and practical example that we can relate to
15:18	manutter1	fliebel: do you want to read email or just send it?
15:19	jimduey	I didn't pursue that much farther since I doubt people would change. But I did enough to satisfy myself that Ring would be easily written in a monadic form.
15:19	fliebel	manutter1: read, move, send, the whole thing.
15:20	manutter1	I've been playing with writing one, but so far only the "send email" bit actually works
15:20	duck1123	fliebel: did you see this? http://nakkaya.com/2010/04/15/using-clojure-to-connect-to-gmail-via-imap/
15:20	jimduey	fdaoud: you might take a look at https://github.com/jduey/appraiser/blob/master/src/appraiser/scripter.clj for a monadic DSL for testing Ring handlers.
15:21	fliebel	duck1123: Yes. I'll save that for future reference.
15:21	fliebel	manutter1: Is it on GH?
15:22	fdaoud	jimduey: excellent
15:22	manutter1	fliebel: yes, https://github.com/manutter51/nonomail
15:22	fliebel	jimduey: What do I need to read to understand Ring handlers in monadic form?
15:22	manutter1	duck1123: cool, I can use some of that info myself
15:23	manutter1	nakkaya.com has some good stuff
15:24	fliebel	manutter1: Cool. I'll keep that in mind. Maybe I'll contribute a bit later, you never know.
15:24	manutter1	that would be cool
15:29	fliebel	First I need to study the javax.mail API. But if I survive that... I'm not sure what's more complicated, IMAP or Java. I don't dare to say complicated anymore, maybe it's just hard :(
15:30	jimduey	fliebel: I'd say that presentation I did at CodePaLOUsa would be a good place to start if you don't already have a grasp of monads.
15:31	jimduey	I talk a little about monadic Ring at the end of it.
15:32	jimduey	Here's where I did some work in that direction: https://github.com/jduey/ring
15:32	fliebel	jimduey: Link?
15:32	jimduey	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Monads-Made-Easy
15:33	fliebel	jimduey: Thanks. Where is Louisville?
15:33	manutter1	shoot it was there a second ago...
15:34	manutter1	:)
15:34	manutter1	Ok, actually, it's in Kentucky USA
15:42	fliebel	&((comp inc +) 1 1)
15:42	lazybot	⇒ 3
15:43	cemerick	FYI: Enabling rich(er) interactions in the Clojure REPL: http://wp.me/p10OJi-cc
15:43	fdaoud	manutter1: I just got your joke, ha ha :)
15:43	manutter1	:)
15:44	Raynes	cemerick: The fact that you referenced Factor made me all tingly inside.
15:44	cemerick	:-)
15:44	cemerick	Big inspiration in this area.
15:44	Raynes	Factor's documentation is insanely awesome.
15:45	cemerick	Outpaces Racket, AFAIK.
15:45	cemerick	'course, the last time I used it, it was DrScheme
15:46	fliebel	cemerick: information overload! I can't learn monads and nREPL at the same time and hear about Factor still.
15:48	phf	is there a recommended strategy for running slime with both clojure and common lisp? i've not worked with clojure in a while, and i see that clojue-swank now forks slime.el. is that version eventually synced with upstream, and does it work with cl?
15:49	ibdknox	cemerick, given my background, I'm really excited to talk about dev tools at the Conj
15:49	cemerick	fliebel: Maybe I should have implemented the new nREPL feature using monads? :-P
15:49	fliebel	cemerick: In Factor!
15:49	cemerick	ibdknox: Rock. It's going to be my primary Clojure focus for 2012, I think.
15:50	arohner	cemerick: your video/site eats my mouse cursor while the tab is open. OSX + chrome
15:50	cemerick	huh
15:50	cemerick	arohner: it's wordpress.com and vimeo; I'm not sure I can do anything about it :-/
15:51	cemerick	arohner: Can't replicate. Sorry, in any case.
15:52	arohner	cemerick: np. It's probably chrome + vimeo's fault
15:52	cemerick	"I'm having a problem in Chrome." "What vers…oh, nevermind."
15:52	fliebel	jimduey: Why rename all that stuff?
15:53	arohner	cemerick: true, but it is a nice experience for the user when things work
15:53	cemerick	agreed :-)
15:53	arohner	"I'm having a problem in Chrome. When will it be fixed?" who knows
15:54	arohner	Anyone have experience with "com.sun.jdi.IncompatibleThreadStateException" when trying to use CDT?
15:54	ibdknox	cemerick, my non-compete will fall out of effect in december... then I can hack on a Clojure IDE all I want :D
15:54	jimduey	fliebel: what stuff? shoot me an email and I'll get back to you later this evening.
15:54	ibdknox	cemerick, so I'd probably be very interested in helping out
15:54	cemerick	ibdknox: A non-compete that impacts Clojure tool development?
15:54	fliebel	jimduey: nvm, aliasing mapcat
15:55	ibdknox	cemerick, I was one of the primary interaction designers for VS
15:55	cemerick	ah-ha
15:55	Raynes	ibdknox: That's one hell of a non-compete.
15:55	cemerick	ibdknox: I have some ideas for you. :-)
15:55	amalloy	it seems pretty reasonable, insofar as non-competes are ever reasonable
15:55	ibdknox	lol yeah
15:56	ibdknox	I doubt they'd come after me
15:56	ibdknox	but still..
15:56	ibdknox	I was in Seattle
15:56	cemerick	Yeah, no point in taking a risk over 3 months
15:57	Raynes	cemerick: He is my technical reviewer, btw. Did your book get tech reviewed by a guy who worked on VS? No? Well, not all of us can be me.
15:57	ibdknox	haha
15:57	cemerick	nice
15:57	technomancy	phf: there's not really any good way; you have to choose between being set up for CL or Clojure
15:57	amalloy	technomancy, phf: doesn't scottj claim he does this all the time?
15:57	brehaut	ibdknox: brave announcing that to the wide world ;)
15:57	cemerick	ibdknox: I got the impression you were partial to emacs though?
15:57	Raynes	Nope, Vim.
15:57	technomancy	amalloy: yes, but he doesn't claim he has a good solution. =)
15:57	ibdknox	cemerick, I use vim :D
15:58	Raynes	He is a masochist. Likes it rough.
15:58	cemerick	brave, brave mutha :-)
15:58	cemerick	brehaut: Brave? VS is legendary for being the benchmark of tool usability.
15:58	cemerick	(mainstream tools, anyway)
15:59	fliebel	VS?
15:59	clojurebot	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/fd0371eb7238e933
15:59	brehaut	ibdknox: that explains a lot about VS then :P
15:59	ibdknox	Visual Studio
15:59	Raynes	fliebel: Visual Studio.
15:59	Raynes	ibdknox: I demand that you remove yourself from my head.
15:59	ibdknox	haha
15:59	brehaut	cemerick: its a mainstream tool for mainstream tools ;)
16:00	ibdknox	haha
16:00	ibdknox	well
16:00	ibdknox	to be fair
16:00	brehaut	cemerick: i found it clunky up to 2010
16:00	ibdknox	the stuff I worked on hasn't seen the light of day yet
16:00	brehaut	cemerick: exception being the F# stuff, thats great
16:00	ibdknox	brehaut, it's terrible IMO ;)
16:01	ibdknox	and they did a bastardized version of what I designed for the next version :(
16:01	brehaut	ibdknox: based on VC++ 6 or whatever, 2003 - 2008 are amazing
16:01	cemerick	I've always been able to do what I needed, even though I don't know anything about .NET fundamentally. That's pretty remarkable to me.
16:01	brehaut	ibdknox: :(
16:02	ibdknox	that's ok, we can do awesome things for Clojure :D
16:02	ibdknox	though, that's something I definitely can't accomplish on my own.
16:02	brehaut	cemerick: its default project is sensible, its text editing widget is pretty powerful, and the debugger just works, but ocne you step outside of that its a quagmire
16:02	ibdknox	we'll be a far cry from VS, but even 1% the size of VS is GIGANTIC
16:03	cemerick	ibdknox: there's a lot of pieces laying around; a ton of progress could be made just by gathering them up and beating the bushes a bit.
16:03	simard	perhaps debugging for clojure would be a nice start :)
16:03	simard	a debugger*
16:03	phf	technomancy: that's sad :( is that a permanent direction of things now?
16:03	cemerick	Of course, that doesn't help out with the client-specific, interaction types of things.
16:03	brehaut	simard: you have print‽ what more could you want!
16:03	technomancy	phf: it's an unavoidable side-effect of the fact that the slime devs refuse to make stable releases.
16:04	cemerick	simard: I think there's a lot of lower-hanging fruit that can (and should) be knocked out first.
16:04	cemerick	At least, that's what I'm going to focus on.
16:04	amalloy	technomancy: s/stable//
16:04	technomancy	phf: with a lot of work we could update swank-clojure to work with upstream slime, and then it would break soon later.
16:04	technomancy	amalloy: =(
16:05	chouser	nREPL is roughly in the same solution space as slime, is that correct?
16:06	technomancy	chouser: yeah, basically.
16:06	cemerick	no, it's corollary is swank
16:06	technomancy	though to be pedantic, slime is a client, so nrepl is more like swank.
16:06	technomancy	heh
16:06	chouser	ah, I thought slime was the server. sorry
16:06	simard	brehaut: seriously, not much hehe.. that, combined with being connected to the repl through slime, modifying as you go some functions in an already running program
16:07	phf	technomancy: i see. i guess heller is not the easiest person to work with, but further fragmentation of lisp community is unfortunate
16:07	technomancy	yeah, it's a shame. there are things you can do; maybe scottj can comment further.
16:07	cemerick	Is there a unified lisp community? Sorta like talking about an algol community.
16:08	technomancy	he's one of the only folks still interested in CL around here
16:10	brehaut	cemerick: the rich interactions vid is great btw
16:11	cemerick	Thanks. Thought it might have been a little weak, actually.
16:11	brandel	if anyone recalls, yesterday someone mentioned that Rich Hickey gave a talk recently about expressing rules in clojure, does anyone have a link to that?
16:11	cemerick	The ccw UI for it is nonexistent at the moment. :-P
16:11	phf	technomancy: ok, thank you
16:12	jodaro	brandel: the simple/easy talk?
16:12	brehaut	cemerick: mucking round with the config for the repl in the repl is pretty cool :)
16:12	cemerick	It needs a decent drop-down so you can choose among the different representations you want to opt into, at the very least.
16:12	brandel	not certainly jodaro
16:12	brandel	err certain
16:13	jodaro	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy
16:13	brandel	I'll watch that - I see it's on InfoQ
16:13	brandel	yep cheers
16:13	cemerick	brehaut: yup, it's wide open. That actually makes things a little tricky if you have multiple clients connecting to the same REPL server, but we'll skin that cat when we get to it.
16:13	brehaut	ah true
16:13	brehaut	progress is progress
16:14	Raynes	cemerick: I'm on the phone with PETA. They want your address.
16:14	brehaut	i now regret jumping back into emacs; i could have jumped into new ccw!
16:14	dpritchett	anyone using M-x clojure-jack-in lately?
16:14	dpritchett	the last time i looked this was durendal.el
16:14	Raynes	brehaut: Bite your tongue!
16:14	dpritchett	now I have a new emacs-nox install on ubuntu and i ran elpa/marmalade and got clojure-mode but M-x isn't finding a clojure-jack-in yet
16:14	dpritchett	Did I miss a step?
16:14	cemerick	brehaut: Just keep an eye out. I'm far from done. :-)
16:14	technomancy	dpritchett: maybe you got an older clojure-mode from elpa instead of the latest one from marmalade?
16:14	dpritchett	probably
16:15	dpritchett	i haev 1.7.1, i'd love to know how to fix that
16:15	cemerick	though cgrand and lpetit did a killer job on sprucing up the editor lately
16:15	dpritchett	probably shouldn't have tried elpa to begin with
16:15	Raynes	Yeah, that's definitely ancient.
16:15	technomancy	dpritchett: make sure marmalade is on your package-archives source and run M-x package-refresh-contents; then M-x package-install clojure-mode
16:15	dpritchett	i should jsut nuke emacs.d, it's not like i have anything worthwhile there
16:15	cemerick	(the subject of cgrand's talk, actually, IIRC)
16:15	technomancy	or that =)
16:15	jodaro	am i the only one that uses inferior-lisp?
16:15	brehaut	cemerick: the 0.4 release looks very compelling on its own
16:15	jodaro	is that deprecated?
16:15	fdaoud	brandel: that's a great talk for sure, but there isn't much about expressing rules in clojure
16:16	technomancy	jodaro: it's fine. it's not that much simpler than slime anymore now with M-x clojure-jack-in though.
16:16	Raynes	jodaro: Certainly not. Just that using SLIME is just as easy as using inferior Lisp now.
16:16	brehaut	cemerick: is parsley driven largely by ccw atm?
16:16	technomancy	in the past the only reason inf-lisp was supported was because slime was a huge pain to configure.
16:16	jodaro	ok
16:16	cemerick	brehaut: you mean its development?
16:16	brehaut	yeah
16:16	cemerick	I don't know all of Christophe's motivations, but yeah, I know that parsley's latest significant progress was a blocker for ccw.
16:16	jodaro	it's been working great for me so i'll leave well enough alone and keep going
16:17	Raynes	jodaro: Do you use Leiningen or cake?
16:17	jodaro	leiningen
16:17	Raynes	jodaro: lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.3.3
16:18	brehaut	cemerick: one thing ive not been sure about is does ccw support lein projects?
16:18	jodaro	ok let me see
16:18	Raynes	Then, just because I said so, run M-x clojure-jack-in. Just try it once. ;)
16:18	cemerick	brehaut: There's a very low-tech way at the moment. project.clj support for ccw is very high on my list of things to do next.
16:18	mefesto	When it comes to clojure web frameworks with routing, html templating and form validation is webnoir the place to start?
16:18	jodaro	yeah that works too
16:18	jodaro	nice
16:19	brehaut	mefesto: a framework is the wrong way to start; theres a handful of good options for all those
16:20	cemerick	brehaut: There's https://github.com/abrenk/lein-eclipse and http://sexp.posterous.com/poor-mans-integrating-leiningen-into-counterc
16:20	cemerick	both are decidedly suboptimal
16:20	Raynes	jodaro: You don't have to use it. Just wanted to demonstrate the simplicity of the thing. I didn't use it either until I was floored by it the first time I used it.
16:20	jkkramer	project.clj support and an option to turn off rainbow parens might tempt me away from emacs
16:20	ibdknox	mefesto, in terms of starting quickly, I believe Noir is the fastest start->finish solution. But I wrote it, so take what I say with a grain of salt
16:20	mefesto	brehaut: well i've been using plain ring with moustache for some restful apis. now i need more of a typical web app framework a user facing app
16:21	brehaut	mefesto: have you looked at hiccup and enlive ?
16:21	mefesto	brehaut: recommendations on alternatives?
16:21	brehaut	mefesto: webnoir is a layer ontop of compojure and hiccup
16:22	mefesto	ibdknox: nice tutorial btw :)
16:22	dpritchett	i must have screwed up my marmalade install i guess
16:22	ibdknox	mefesto, thanks :)
16:22	mefesto	brehaut: yeah but it's handy that webnoir has pre-packaged these libs for me
16:23	brehaut	mefesto: if you see value in that, then perhaps it is the right choice
16:26	ibdknox	brehaut, what would make it a lesser choice?
16:27	brehaut	ibdknox: i have a strong preference for web stuff to be closer to the library end of the library / framework spectrum.
16:28	ibdknox	noir is far from a framework in the traditional sense
16:28	ibdknox	it's tiny
16:28	brehaut	ibdknox: indeed :)
16:28	ibdknox	and I agree
16:28	ibdknox	I've built sites with all the big frameworks
16:28	ibdknox	I hated all of it
16:28	ibdknox	lol
16:28	brehaut	ibdknox: i use moustache and enlive because compojure is too frameworky for my tastes ;)
16:28	ibdknox	lol
16:28	brehaut	haha yeah, i write django stuff for my day job
16:29	cemerick	brehaut: wow, that's sensitive ;-)
16:29	cemerick	I have fond memories of pylons
16:30	fliebel	cemerick: I remember the state monad was mentioned in reference to your config macro. What became of that?
16:31	cemerick	fliebel: I took gfredericks up on his suggestion; it's in clutch HEAD right now.
16:32	fliebel	cemerick: What did gfredericks say?
16:32	cemerick	state (or reader) is a general solution, but isn't dynamic scope, which I still wanted to support
16:33	cemerick	fliebel: see his comment on the original post (Gary Fredericks)
16:34	dpritchett	am i going to have trouble using emacs 23.1?
16:34	technomancy	dpritchett: should be fine
16:34	technomancy	24 is nicer mostly since package.el is built-in, but it's not required
16:34	dpritchett	ok, i've just wiped and reinstalled elpa/marmalade about 5x and i haven't figured it out yet
16:35	dpritchett	never had quite such an issue, i must be screwing something up
16:35	jodaro	only 5?
16:35	technomancy	there is an open issue with marmalade that the instructions on the splash page are a bit misleading
16:35	technomancy	http://code.google.com/p/marmalade/issues/detail?id=20
16:35	dpritchett	so i install elpa the traditional way, paste 5-6 lines of elisp into scratch and C-j eval right?
16:36	technomancy	no, that gives you the old version that can't support multiple sources
16:36	dpritchett	ah
16:36	technomancy	damn thing has been open forever; the marmalade maintainer is basically MIA =(
16:36	dpritchett	so how do i install from the new huge file you link to
16:36	technomancy	and it's implemented in node.js so nobody else dares to touch it
16:36	technomancy	you don't really need marmalade; just install clojure-mode from git if you're having trouble
16:37	technomancy	the fact that elpa and marmalade are so neglected just makes me so thankful that clojars works as well as it does.
16:42	fliebel	&(let [[&[bar :as baz]] [1 2 3]] [bar baz])
16:42	lazybot	⇒ [1 (1 2 3)]
16:42	fliebel	Why is bar only the first value and baz the whole?
16:43	hiredman	cause thats how destructuring works
16:43	Raynes	That's what :as does.
16:43	amalloy	fliebel: because...that's what you destructured it as?
16:43	Raynes	:\
16:43	Raynes	"Destructure like I just said, but go ahead and give me everything bound to this so that I can use it as well."
16:44	fliebel	ah, right... so...
16:44	fliebel	&(let [[&[bar & boo :as baz]] [1 2 3]] [bar boo baz])
16:44	lazybot	⇒ [1 (2 3) (1 2 3)]
16:45	fliebel	:as aplies to the whole thing, not just to bar.
16:45	amalloy	fliebel: what would it mean to just apply to bar?
16:45	scottj	amalloy, technomancy: the way I run slime w/ clojure and CL is pretty simple. I use a version of slime that works with both :)
16:45	hiredman	~clojure
16:45	clojurebot	clojure is the bestest programming language available.
16:46	simard	scottj: what version is that ?
16:46	fliebel	amalloy: That it's just an alias. But that doesn't make much sense. It just reads like that, and I'm sleepy.
16:47	scottj	simard: I use 10-15-09 but the version technomancy recommends (10-04-09 I think) may work too I haven't tried
16:47	scottj	in a couple years that is
16:48	technomancy	oh well; he's gone =\
16:48	technomancy	I wonder why I get so many people complaining about CL then?
16:48	scottj	I bet a lot are using latest slime
16:48	scottj	and some are possibly using swank from latest slime and old slime
16:48	brehaut	isnt that the CLers role in the lisp community ;)
16:49	technomancy	brehaut: bingo
16:49	hiredman	cemerick: http://www.thelastcitadel.com/images/Screenshot-Repl.png
16:49	scottj	and very likely there are bugs that I simply haven't encountered
16:50	cemerick	hiredman: nice :-) That looks familiar…which repl impl is that?
16:50	hiredman	mine
16:50	cemerick	that's what I thought
16:50	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/Repl
16:50	technomancy	scottj: actually it may come from the slime-contrib libs too
16:50	hiredman	my first lein project
16:50	cemerick	in-process, I presume?
16:50	hiredman	yes
16:50	hiredman	you just launch a repl
16:51	scottj	technomancy: the elpa version? I use slime-fancy but I don't use anything from elpa
16:51	cemerick	hiredman: before your time, per usual? ;-)
16:51	scottj	technomancy: of course slime-fancy doesn't include all the sliem-contribs
16:52	hiredman	I dunno about that, the implementation launchs something like 20 threads at start up, which may be over kill
16:52	technomancy	scottj: could be it. for the most part they are not too keen letting things like details get in the way of telling me how broken the current situation is. =)
16:52	cemerick	ah, the joys of swing
16:52	cemerick	Seems like a good REPL only needs to ramp up ~15 threads.
16:53	hiredman	the whole thing is a bit of a hack, since no one seems to make a nice simple embeddable rich terminal component
16:54	hiredman	even getting an embeddable terminal component for a simple gui repl is a pain
16:54	cemerick	"rich terminal" is a contradiction in terms for the most part, no?
16:55	scottj	dpritchett: make sure to do make bootstrap, that got me
16:55	dpritchett	scottj, somehow i've managed to fail at "git clone"
16:55	dpritchett	this is a first for me
16:55	dpritchett	i use git pretty regularly too
16:55	technomancy	dpritchett: what OS? it's not hard to find precompiled binaries.
16:55	dpritchett	i'm on ubuntu
16:55	brehaut	git contains traps for plays of any experience level
16:55	dpritchett	i tried the ppa and it wasn't going so well
16:56	technomancy	dpritchett: http://emacs.naquadah.org
16:56	technomancy	or git clone --depth 1
16:56	hiredman	cemerick: well, a terminal like gui widget that allows for content beyond text
16:56	cemerick	right
16:56	hiredman	my repl there can embed any jcomponent
16:56	cemerick	Eclipse actually gets very close
16:56	technomancy	dpritchett: bit of a yak shave though; manual install of clojure-mode is going to be the path of least resistance
16:56	hiredman	but, well, you need all of eclipse :(
16:57	hiredman	not terribly reusable
16:57	cemerick	well, for what you want, you just need swt to get the embeddable webkit view
16:57	dpritchett	and to think, a month ago i was in here wondering aloud about ipython-grade Clojure repls to use with vim and i was told to bite the bullet and use emacs
16:57	technomancy	cemerick: are you drawing from that json-powered mac gui-ish terminal that was floating around a while ago?
16:57	fliebel	jimduey: Would there be a monad to handle the asynchronous case well? Like, websockets and stuff.
16:57	cemerick	technomancy: I don't think I saw that.
16:57	hiredman	the termkit
16:57	hiredman	~google termkit
16:57	clojurebot	First, out of 3630 results is:
16:57	technomancy	cemerick: probably relevant: http://acko.net/blog/on-termkit
16:57	clojurebot	On TermKit \| Steven Wittens - Acko.net
16:57	clojurebot	http://acko.net/blog/on-termkit
16:57	dakrone	ugh, termkit was so ugly
16:57	hiredman	yeah
16:57	technomancy	clojurebot: too slow, bro
16:57	clojurebot	bartj: it's not broken. Unless you know the performance hit there is actually a problem, I'd recommend leaving it alone.
16:57	hiredman	well, but it the right direction
16:58	cemerick	technomancy: thank you, that looks very tasty
16:58	cemerick	Certainly in the right direction.
16:58	scottj	dakrone: as ugly as xterm?
16:58	technomancy	dakrone: heh; yeah, proportional-width fonts are a real facepalm
16:59	dakrone	scottj: more ugly, at leas xterm is readable
16:59	jodaro	hrm
16:59	cemerick	hey, don't hate on my verdana!
16:59	dakrone	plus, it's built on nodejs
16:59	jodaro	wasn't there a from scratch clojure ide written in clojure?
16:59	cemerick	We'll have to see what I can do about getting the REPL view built on top of webkit in ccw.
16:59	srid	has anyone used aleph to plot real-time graphs?
16:59	technomancy	cemerick: oops; I haven't watched the video yet; it's still downloading. =)
16:59	dakrone	I think we only have to think a moment on marmalade-repo to know how bad of an idea that is
16:59	jodaro	i remember playing with it but i can't remember the name now
17:00	scottj	I think a term (and emacs) with these two features would be cool. 1: don't move the cursor block all at once, have it slide to the new position. 2: fade/slide in new text.
17:00	scottj	basically the effects you seen in all hollywood movies
17:00	jodaro	oh clooj
17:01	dpritchett	btw thanks technomancy et al for your patience with my emacs adventuer
17:01	cemerick	So, for those that have seen what I'm trying to do: anyone want to try to convince me that we should swallow mime types to identify different representations?
17:01	dpritchett	adventure
17:02	technomancy	dpritchett: np. these are still the early days as the package manager is still in the process of getting uptake.
17:03	dpritchett	i can tell! a year ago this process was actually easier because all of you bright chaps were targeting the emacs23 that ubuntu was giving me ;)
17:03	technomancy	never mind that package.el has been around longer than leiningen; everything just moves several orders of magnitude more slowly than clojure land.
17:07	jweiss	anyone have advice on whether it's easier to add-watch on a ref for a large tree structure, and then do a diff to find out what changed, OR, use refs on bits of the tree, and apply the same watch fn to all of them?
17:07	cemerick	jweiss: the former
17:07	cemerick	the latter is the path to insanit
17:07	cemerick	insanity*
17:07	jweiss	cemerick: yeah that's what I'd rather do, but by what means do i do the diff?
17:08	cemerick	jweiss: clojure.data/diff? http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.data-api.html
17:08	cemerick	Never used it myself, but fits the bill.
17:12	scottj	images in slime repl http://collison.ie/code/slime-repl-pics.png
17:13	technomancy	scottj: stock slime or patched?
17:13	scottj	technomancy: patched
17:13	technomancy	bummer
17:13	hiredman	oh! are you sure, it seems like the other side of slime can send back "eval in emacs" messages
17:13	hiredman	so maybe a stock slime could do it
17:14	scottj	yeah, that image is from 3 years ago so something similar might be in slime now
17:14	hiredman	http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/elisp/html_node/Showing-Images.html#Showing-Images
17:14	technomancy	hiredman: I don't see why not
17:15	hiredman	just that swank-clojure is disgusting :(
17:15	scottj	slime/contrib/slime-media.el
17:15	scottj	:display things other than text in slime buffers"
17:16	hiredman	kinda cool
17:16	scottj	s/slime-media/swank-media
17:22	jweiss	cemerick: ah, that clojure.data/diff is great, appears to be 1.3 only, maybe i should just make the move
17:23	hiredman	jump to a snapshot of 1.4
17:23	Raynes	jweiss: Please, for the love of God, make the move. Otherwise I'm doomed to have to update one of your projects at some point.
17:24	Raynes	That'd make sense, since lazybot is running 1.3 now. Always good to have different Clojure versions between the bots.
17:24	cemerick	FWIW, I don't think inlining is so critical, if that's an issue.
17:25	jweiss	Raynes: ok ok :) i WANT to move. i'll just have to add a bunch of ^{:dynamic true} or whatever the syntax is, and some libs that are stuck in the contrib blob means i'll have to keep using it
17:25	hiredman	at least the sandbox, the amount of work to move clojurebot over to post 1.2 is scary
17:25	cemerick	Though I guess there's no latitude for getting slime to send something useful to swank.
17:25	jweiss	i think prxml is the only lib i still need from the old contrib
17:26	cemerick	jweiss: clutch continues to use old contrib for a couple of namespaces that don't have easy corollaries.
17:26	cemerick	so, it's far from verboten
17:26	hiredman	1.4!
17:26	hiredman	the alphas are already out
17:27	jweiss	hiredman: what do i get with 1.4 aside from an extra year before my bits rot?
17:28	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/b5f5ba2e15dc2f20e14e05141f7de7c6a3d91179 is the big one so far
17:29	hiredman	using clojure's own hash function which is consistent with equiv for clojure collections
17:29	brehaut	jweiss: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Release.Next+Planning
17:29	hiredman	as opposed to .hashCode
17:31	jweiss	hiredman: that doesn't really entice me :)
17:32	hiredman	"this house that has had it's foundation fixed up doesn't entice me"
17:33	jweiss	hiredman: but some of the windows are stuck and cabinet doors are missing.
17:33	jweiss	(it's alpha after all)
17:34	jweiss	i'm happy that the foundation is fixed though
17:34	hiredman	pffft
17:34	amalloy	jweiss: it really should entice you
17:34	hiredman	it's not like they went through and trashed the rest of the house with sledge hammers
17:34	hiredman	the changes are alpha
17:34	hiredman	most of it is still the same as 1.3
17:34	amalloy	&(contains? 1 #{(Integer. 1)})
17:34	lazybot	⇒ false
17:35	hiredman	wrong arg order
17:35	amalloy	&(contains? #{(Integer. 1)} 1)
17:35	lazybot	⇒ true
17:35	amalloy	squint hiredman, shouldn't that say false?
17:35	amalloy	,(contains? #{(Integer. 1)} 1)
17:36	clojurebot	true
17:36	hiredman	(type #{(Integer. 1)})
17:36	hiredman	,(type #{(Integer. 1)})
17:36	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet
17:37	hiredman	,(type (first #{(Integer. 1)}))
17:37	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
17:37	hiredman	damned if I know
17:38	dpritchett	technomancy: now i'm stuck on a weird udev/initramfs-tools apt problem in turnkey ubuntu
17:38	dpritchett	c'est la vie
17:53	technomancy	I'm not sure what that means, but it sounds like a hoot and a half.
18:00	seancorfield	quick emacs Q since my google fu is failing me... i ran package-list-packages - what key marks a package for installation?
18:00	Raynes	seancorfield: i
18:01	seancorfield	obvious really... sigh... then x to execute the staged commands...
18:01	hiredman	i maybe? dunno I haven't used the package manager in a long time
18:01	seancorfield	i'm going thru the leiningen / emacs install process on windows xp... for 'fun' :)
18:03	eipiten	Is there a way to do something like #(eval (cons 'and %&)) without using eval?
18:04	amalloy	&(doc every?)
18:04	lazybot	⇒ "([pred coll]); Returns true if (pred x) is logical true for every x in coll, else false."
18:04	seancorfield	nice... leiningen / emacs all up and running on windows!
18:04	seancorfield	now i "know" what i'm doing, it's all much easier
18:04	hiredman	^-- largly the kind of thing I am talking about when I say "don't be an idiot"
18:05	hiredman	really that question has nothing to do with eval
18:05	hiredman	and bringing eval in only muddies the water
18:05	hiredman	really it's about and and what and does
18:05	hiredman	which is return true if all the values you pass it are true
18:06	Raynes	He asked the wrong question -- I think we can forgive him just this once.
18:06	hiredman	which even if every? did not exist is simple to write
18:06	hiredman	anyway
18:07	dpritchett	ok, so i got ubuntu fixed (sort of) and since i've failed to get the ppas working for a second consecutive hour i'm trying git clone emacs again :P
18:07	seancorfield	ok, that was a success... now i need to write a blog post about it!
18:08	hiredman	please don't
18:08	hiredman	~blog post
18:08	clojurebot	make a note of http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/11/the_c_is_efficient_language_fa.php it is yet another article about picking c or c++ for performance being naive
18:08	hiredman	grr
18:08	clojurebot	Huh?
18:08	hiredman	~blogs
18:08	clojurebot	make a note of http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/11/the_c_is_efficient_language_fa.php it is yet another article about picking c or c++ for performance being naive
18:08	hiredman	clojurebot: you suck
18:08	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
18:08	jodaro	make it more of a challenge: tweet it.
18:09	tncardoso	hi, I want to use map to change one value in a given list and i want to return [list true] in case of changes. (for efficiency sake) so I should do a dynamic bind or is there a better way?
18:10	eipiten	You're right: I guess my real question is about how to manipulate structure. I don't really understand how to un-list a bunch of elements elegantly.
18:10	hiredman	eipiten: unlist?
18:10	sean_winxp	hiredman: so what were you actually trying to tell me about blogging?
18:11	hiredman	sean_winxp: people blogging about their emacs setups are the primary source of misinformation about how to setup emacs
18:11	amalloy	sean_winxp: if a blog becomes popular enough to be useful, it is already out of date by then
18:12	eipiten	hiredman: the difference between #(eval (cons 'and %&)) and #(and %&). I'm afraid I don't have the vocab to really explain what I mean. The first function has the desired effect; the second doesn't.
18:12	technomancy	seancorfield: I used to recommend M-x list-packages, but in most cases M-x package-install is simpler if you know what you're looking for
18:12	sean_winxp	i've been good about updating old clojure blog posts to keep them up to date... at least i try :)
18:13	sean_winxp	technomancy: good point - i wanted to ensure clojure-mode was at least in the least of packages before i installed it tho'...
18:13	hiredman	eipiten: step back and think about what you actually want, forget about and and eval
18:14	brehaut	eipiten: every time you call eval you fire up the compiler
18:14	hiredman	you have a list of true or false values and you want to check if they are all true, right?
18:15	hiredman	brehaut: when you are trying to teach a man to fish the brand of tackle box is not important
18:15	sean_winxp	technomancy: on windows, i hit a problem that my classpath var had a bad path in courtesy of quicktime (gee, thanx QT!) but otherwise the whole leiningen / emacs install process was pretty slick
18:15	eipiten	hiredman: yes.
18:15	technomancy	sean_winxp: great. did you install from the .zip distribution?
18:15	hiredman	eipiten: so you have a list of stuff you want to do stuff with, how do you process lists?
18:15	brehaut	hiredman: what if one of the tackle boxes is labled 'dynamite' ?
18:16	eipiten	hiredman: so the catch-all paramter returns a list, and I want to pass all of the elements of the list to a macro. If it were a function, I guess append would work?
18:16	hiredman	brehaut: certainly a valid method of fishing in some cases
18:16	hiredman	eipiten: why do you want to pass it to a macro?
18:17	hiredman	I hope you are not going to mention 'and' again, as I said you should forget about it
18:18	tncardoso	hi, I want to use (map) to change one value in a given list and i want to return [list true] in case of changes (for efficiency sake). I should do a dynamic bind or is there a better way?
18:19	hiredman	eipiten: how do you process a list of values? if you cannot answer this you are in for a world of hurt
18:19	brehaut	tncardoso: map is not the right function for changing just one function in a list
18:19	Raynes	s/function/element/
18:19	brehaut	Raynes: thanks
18:19	eipiten	hiredman: usually I'd go for some sort of reduce
18:19	amalloy	Raynes: all of brehaut's elements are functions. he's crazy about the HOFs
18:20	Raynes	amalloy: He's crazy in general.
18:20	tncardoso	brehaut: i need 2 values: the list with changed value and a flag if the list was changed or not
18:20	hiredman	eipiten: which is exactly the way to go, so why didn't you use reduce (or really every?) in the first place?
18:20	tncardoso	brehaut: i wanted to do llike this in order to avoid reading the list twice
18:20	brehaut	amalloy, Raynes: if you arent creating your tarpit from first principles of lambda calc, why even bother?
18:20	amalloy	i assume the objection here is that reduce doesn't short-circuit
18:21	sean_winxp	technomancy: with lein i downloaded the .bat file, downloaded curl.exe and did lein self-install
18:21	hiredman	then why not write a reduce that does?
18:21	gtrak`	why change an element in a list? should probably be using a vector instead
18:21	technomancy	sean_winxp: do you think it makes sense to have people do that rather than just downloading the .bat and .jar?
18:21	hiredman	solve the actual problem instead of deciding you must want 'and and eval
18:21	sean_winxp	then got emacs 24 from the emacs for windows site (i need to dbl chk my browser history for the url)
18:21	technomancy	sean_winxp: seems like curl is an unnucessary manual step.
18:22	sean_winxp	then did lein plugin install swank "1.3.2" per swank-clojure instructions
18:22	tncardoso	gtrak`: i am using a vector
18:22	tncardoso	gtrak`: but I dont know the element position
18:22	sean_winxp	technomancy: i needed wget or curl tho', yes?
18:22	technomancy	sean_winxp: curl/wget is only used for self-install
18:22	gtrak`	well, you can either check each one, if it's sorted do a binary search, etc...
18:22	technomancy	sean_winxp: so if you are going to have to manually download curl, you might as well just manually download the jar and skip the entire self-install process
18:22	sean_winxp	the lein wiki page doesn't explain what to do with the downloaded jar tho'...
18:22	tncardoso	gtrak`: i have to check each one
18:23	technomancy	sean_winxp: right, I'm just wondering whether the instructions should be changed.
18:23	gtrak`	tncardoso, probably worth it to do reduce conj at that point
18:23	sean_winxp	if it had told me what to do with the jar, i would have gone with that
18:24	sean_winxp	but having curl might be useful anyway :)
18:24	tncardoso	gtrak`: the vector is not the right structure, I will change it later. My question is more a clojure one.. if I reduce and conj the list, how do I set a flag if the list was changed?
18:24	gtrak`	tncardoso, with a closure and an atom
18:24	eipiten	hiredman: I'm afraid I'm just learning right now. I haven't actually used every? before (although it looks like it is exactly what I need). As for reduce, I was hoping for something more elegant. Thanks for your help.
18:24	sean_winxp	so technomancy if i had downloaded the jar, where should i have put it?
18:24	tncardoso	gtrak`: dynamic biding?
18:24	gtrak`	no
18:24	hiredman	more elegant than reduce?
18:24	technomancy	sean_winxp: I'm not sure quite where it goes on windows, but what I'm getting at is that maybe documenting that would be simpler than the current instructions.
18:25	hiredman	sigh
18:25	tncardoso	gtrak`: how is that then?
18:25	gtrak`	tncardoso, bind an atom at the caller, that's your flag, pass in a function that replaces it to your work function that actually performs the search and replace to swap it out
18:26	gtrak`	those concerns can be separated
18:26	hiredman	ugh
18:26	hiredman	atom?
18:27	clojurebot	atom discussion is http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/fd0371eb7238e933
18:27	hiredman	you can just compare
18:27	hiredman	(= list result-list)
18:27	tncardoso	gtrak`: thanks
18:27	tncardoso	gtrak`: i will give it a try
18:27	gtrak`	that's the same speed if it didn't change, slower if it did, right?
18:28	hiredman	benchmark it
18:28	gtrak`	but i suppose you'd also have to check if you're replacing the element with the same elemnt
18:28	hiredman	why?
18:28	gtrak`	unless you don't care, in which case you'd get different results with = vs atom
18:28	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
18:29	gtrak`	hiredman, depends on what you want I guess
18:29	mrh0057	technomancy: Its probably easier to download curl and let lein put it in the correct place. Microsoft keeps changing around were the home directory is and where applications specific files go.
18:29	technomancy	mrh0057: oh, I see.
18:30	technomancy	now that you mention it I have had a number of bug reports around that, especially differing between cygwin vs the JVM
18:30	hiredman	technomancy: you wouldn't have a link to your map vs. reduce tweet handy would you?
18:31	technomancy	hiredman: you mean the one about which one is better?
18:31	hiredman	yeah
18:31	technomancy	fraid not
18:31	hiredman	I suppose it doesn't matter
18:31	hiredman	(if I get the link or not)
18:32	gtrak`	map's better, right?
18:32	gtrak`	if you can do it with map?
18:33	hiredman	map can be implemented in terms of reduce (if the lanague is lazy it will be lazy, if not strict) but not the reverse
18:34	gtrak`	hmm, you couldn't?
18:34	hiredman	well, go ahead and do it
18:34	gtrak`	if you had mutable state it seems like you can
18:35	gtrak`	but it won't be lazy
18:36	mrh0057	technomancy: On Windows 7 the config are either in C:\Users\<username>\ or C:\Users\<username>\AppData\Roaming\ . The path depends on what you use to get the user's home directory.
18:36	technomancy	mrh0057: and you can't just rely on the HOME environment variable?
18:38	amalloy	technomancy: $HOME is a recipe for sadness on windows, isn't it?
18:38	technomancy	amalloy: apparently
18:39	mrh0057	technomancy: I think the HOME environment variable gives you C:\Users\<username>\
18:39	guns	Hello. Is there a dissoc for vectors? Currently I (filter identity (apply assoc v (interleave indices (repeat nil)))); but that's pretty slow
18:40	hiredman	you can only remove elements from the end of vectors efficently
18:40	mrh0057	technomancy: However emacs looks for .emacs.d in C:\Users\<username>\App\Roaming .
18:40	guns	hiredman: mmm that's something to think about
18:40	hiredman	if you want random access for remove use a map
18:40	amalloy	hiredman: i don't think you can actually do that though, can you?
18:41	hiredman	do what?
18:41	amalloy	,(dissoc [1 2] 1)
18:41	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentMap>
18:41	hiredman	,(pop [1 2])
18:41	clojurebot	[1]
18:41	amalloy	well yes
18:41	technomancy	mrh0057: what if leiningen just told you where it was expecting to find the jar in the error message?
18:41	amalloy	i guess i took the question/statement too literally
18:42	mrh0057	technomancy: That would seem to work.
18:44	guns	hiredman: thanks; I had the impression that using a hash table would be less efficient for working with indices
18:44	mrh0057	technomancy: If people are having problems with emacs on windows, it expects config files to be C:\Users\<username>\App\Roaming . I had problems setting up erlang with emacs because it was looking in the wrong spot for the cookie.
18:44	guns	but I guess I should rethink that
18:44	technomancy	mrh0057: this should be orthogonal to emacs though
18:48	gtrak`	what's a vector do on removal that makes it slow?
18:48	mrh0057	technomancy: It may affect some of the scripts if you really on emacs for getting the home directory.
18:51	technomancy	I think it's all funneled through the .bat file
18:53	bpr	technomancy: how do you do slime/swank? via "lein swank" or M-x c-j-i?
18:53	technomancy	bpr: jack-in
18:53	bpr	with swank-clojure 1.4.0?
18:54	technomancy	bpr: I'm using 1.3.4-SNAPSHOT right now but 1.3.3 is probably best
18:54	bpr	I'm struggling to find a stable dev environment with useful debuggin utilities
18:54	bpr	ok
18:55	bpr	I'm looking forward to having cdt available :)
18:55	bpr	I can do almost everything, except debug threads very well. And I'm findind it really painful when that need crops up
18:56	bpr	anyhow, thanks for the amazing tool(s)!
19:24	seancorfield	hmm, my windows xp emacs install doesn't seem to be reading from .emacs.d in my home folder... so i wonder where it thinks it should be looking for that?
19:25	simard	seancorfield: what about your .emacs file, is it reading it fine ?
19:26	_ulises	seancorfield: afaik, in windows 7 emacs will read from /C/Users/username/AppData/Roaming/.emacs.d/
19:26	simard	seancorfield: try C-x d ~/ to see where it gets you
19:27	simard	iirc this is where emacs looks for .emacs, and, I guess, .emacs.d
19:30	seancorfield	thanx... $HOME was the Application Data/ subfolder
19:30	seancorfield	found junction which creates symlinks on windows so now my .emacs.d folder is sync'd via dropbox between mac / win / ubuntu on three separate systems...
19:31	_ulises	seancorfield: I use git for that which isn't that ... automatic :)
19:31	technomancy	yeah, I've never understood the appeal of dropbox for code
19:31	_ulises	I thought dropbox was based on svn?
19:32	simard	seancorfield: I've been using rsync/unison for years, then I found git
19:33	simard	seancorfield: and github !
19:34	zakwilson	Doing a project in Rails for the first time in a while makes me want to write a batteries-included web framework in Clojure... and not have it be anything like Rails.
19:34	seancorfield	with dropbox and symlinks, i can keep config stuff in one place and it auto-shares changes across all machines... i don't have to do anything
19:35	seancorfield	finding how to do symlinks on windows was a pain tho'
19:35	gtrak`	seancorfield, I use the same method, works great
19:35	simard	seancorfield: git allows you to keep track of changes you made to configs, for times when you go "I wish I hadn't deleted that line"
19:35	gtrak`	does emacs work properly on windows too?
19:35	seancorfield	is there a way to get emacs to reload a file from disk if something else changed it?
19:35	gtrak`	with the same configs?
19:35	zakwilson	More or less, I think.
19:35	simard	gtrak`: not without a full cygwin behind it
19:36	seancorfield	gtrak`: so far, yes, because i'm not using full file paths anywhere
19:36	gtrak`	simard, you have to run cygwin emacs, or just have the progs available?
19:36	_ulises	seancorfield: I try to edit it; emacs asks me whether I want to reload
19:36	seancorfield	no cygwin
19:36	zakwilson	revert-buffer
19:36	seancorfield	thanx zakwilson
19:37	seancorfield	auto-revert-mode apparently
19:37	simard	gtrak`: not sure about that, but things will tend to fail if you don't have an ssh program etc, especially with tramp
19:37	simard	or grep even
19:37	gtrak`	i use dropbox with hg for code
19:37	zakwilson	I always forget how much work it takes to make Windows useful.
19:37	gtrak`	free hosting
19:38	simard	zakwilson: yeah, it's a pain, I feel like I'm missing a few limbs when I have to use it
19:38	zakwilson	I more or less don't ever do anything but browser testing and gaming on Windows.
19:40	simard	there's a few damn good programs on Windows that I have to use for work as well
19:40	simard	it's sad :)
19:40	gtrak`	though you have to use n+1 repos or risk corruption if stuff gets out of sync
19:43	seancorfield	clearly i haven't fired up my win xp vm for a while... 16 important updates to install...
19:43	simard	huh, are you running emacs from within a windows vm ?
19:44	simard	over linux ?
19:44	sritchie	@technomancy, is there some way to trigger an uberjar from within a running project?
19:44	sritchie	technomancy: I'm running into a previously reported issue where a dependency with maven ant tasks will cause an error
19:47	technomancy	sritchie: dependency or dev-dependency?
19:47	sritchie	I'm including lein as a dependency
19:47	technomancy	that's going to cause trouble
19:47	technomancy	have you tried :eval-in-leiningen true in project.clj?
19:48	technomancy	leiningen is not a library
19:48	stevel_	Is it possible to set a system property in leiningen?
19:48	sritchie	let me check it out
19:48	stevel_	Like a -Dfoo.bar="baz
19:49	technomancy	stevel_: you can set :jvm-opts ["-Dfoo.bar=baz"]
19:49	stevel_	awesome, thanks
19:49	sritchie	technomancy: I'm writing a script that deploys some project's uberjar up to a cluster
19:50	sritchie	technomancy: so I'm trying to figure out how to get the project to package itself up during the deploy
19:51	technomancy	it sounds like you should write a plugin
19:53	sritchie	I have a plugin that does this, but the goal was to write a phase for pallet, which works as a library
19:54	sritchie	the phase would accept a remote path and send the project's uberjar to that path
19:57	technomancy	hm; you can try it, but it's definitely not designed to be used that way
19:59	sritchie	okay, I'll keep thinking
20:00	hugod	sritchie: you could write a pallet task, and then make it depend on the uberjar task
20:00	sritchie	yeah, that's true;
20:01	sritchie	it's easier to think about as a phase, but that will definitely work better
20:01	hugod	the pallet task can just run a phase
20:20	simard	wow these webgl javascript samples found over the web are so far from side-effect free :S
20:26	bpr	simard: haha, yeah i wrote a javascript RFB client, and was feeling dirty about all the mutation
20:27	simard	that, and functions accessing public vars all the time, read/write
21:06	_ulises	how can I create a BigInt from clojure.lang?
21:06	hiredman	why?
21:06	clojurebot	why not?
21:07	_ulises	I'm seeing a bug with Math/abs whereby my code is passing different types and one of them is making the reflection fail
21:07	_ulises	I want to confirm it's BigInt and not, say, Long
21:07	_ulises	right now I've worked around it with (int ...)
21:07	seancorfield	(bigint 42)
21:07	_ulises	ta
21:07	seancorfield	in clojure 1.3
21:07	_ulises	yup
21:08	_ulises	and effectively, that was the culprit, so thanks!
21:08	_ulises	hum that's a question I haven't answered: why should I migrate to 1.3? or even, should I?
21:09	_ulises	I mean, I'm a light user of clojure, so 1.2.x serves me just fine
21:09	seancorfield	improvements in numeric performance?
21:10	_ulises	ok, what else?
21:10	zakwilson	You should migrate because the libraries have changed and eventually third-party libraries won't work with 1.2 anymore.
21:10	seancorfield	yeah, the monolithic contrib 1.2.0 is no longer maintained - there are new modular contrib libs that work with 1.2 and 1.3
21:11	_ulises	ah, that's a good point, I can't find any of the contrib stuff I generally use (not that before it was any easier)
21:11	seancorfield	so it's more important to use the new libs, even if you're on 1.2
21:11	zakwilson	That's because contrib is gone, most of it having been either integrated or spun off.
21:11	_ulises	sorry, I probably sound like a moany b...
21:11	_ulises	don't mean to complain, etc.
21:11	seancorfield	clojure 1.2 was very compelling in terms of features, 1.3 less so in many people's eyes
21:12	_ulises	interesting
21:12	seancorfield	but using the new - well-maintained - modular contrib libs is worthwhile, esp. if you're new to clojure
21:12	_ulises	I still need to get around doing that
21:12	_ulises	I've been writing clojure code for over a year now
21:12	zakwilson	Clojure is a new language. Breaking changes are expected in point releases, and I think that's a good thing. The language shouldn't stop evolving in big ways this early.
21:12	_ulises	but most of my code is generally reliant on just the core stuff
21:13	zakwilson	Change because why not?
21:13	_ulises	is there any doc. I could read on the mapping between old contrib <-> new modular contrib?
21:13	zakwilson	Yes, but I don't remember where it is.
21:13	seancorfield	http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
21:14	_ulises	fantastic
21:14	seancorfield	if you have any Qs, let me know since i seem to be maintaining that page :)
21:15	seancorfield	back in a bit, gotta go feed the kitties...
21:15	_ulises	will read it and then come back to you
21:15	_ulises	need some sleep in any case, it's 2:14am over here :'(
21:20	sdeobald	Just installed 1.3 for the first time. Is running tests within swank broken now? Getting "No matching field found: getRoot for class clojure.lang.Var" when I try to run my tests in emacs.
21:23	duck1123	sdeobald: are you using Midje?
21:24	cemerick	anyone know what happened to the git docs @ http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/ ?
21:24	cemerick	OT, I know. :-\|
21:31	archaic	anyone use org-babel-mode with clojure recently? the org page is out of date and im getting 'org-babel-execute not found for clojure'
21:48	seancorfield	cemerick: was just reading http://cemerick.com/ideal-clojure-development-environment/ - looks like it hasn't been updated in a long while?
21:48	cemerick	quite a long time, yeah
21:48	seancorfield	it links to the assembla wiki was my first hint :)
21:48	cemerick	I had it in mind to maintain a grid of all the various tools and how they fared on each criterion.
21:48	cemerick	hah
21:48	seancorfield	be nice to see an updated version with your current thoughts, esp. since you're working with CCW so much now...
21:49	cemerick	Been using it full time since last fall :-)
21:49	seancorfield	it was linked from your recent blog post about richer interfaces in the repl
21:49	cemerick	I don't think a lot has changed, though I only skimmed it earlier.
21:49	cemerick	Yup, I know.
21:50	cemerick	Is that your gentle hinting that I should at least get rid of the assembla links? ;-)
21:50	brehaut	cemerick: what were you using before ccw?
21:50	cemerick	brehaut: Netbeans + Enclojure
21:55	seancorfield	i am liking the memory footprint of emacs compared to eclipse + ccw :)
21:56	duck1123	So those of you that use eclipse, what do you use to connect to a running clojure process?
21:57	duck1123	I tried hooking up to a nrepl, but I couldn't figure out how to access my command history
22:04	cemerick	duck1123: Ctrl-up
22:04	cemerick	seancorfield: I eliminated the old links, and updated the Netbeans and Eclipse sections at the bottom
22:04	duck1123	cemerick: didn't work for me on OSX
22:04	cemerick	oh, right
22:05	duck1123	Installing on Ubuntu atm
22:05	cemerick	duck1123: If you have spaces enabled, that binding conflicts with one of its keyboard shortcuts.
22:05	cemerick	A fix for that is coming in the next release, IIRC.
22:06	duck1123	cemerick: good to know. I was trying to test it out for a co-worker that I'm trying to get to learn clojure and won't make the jump to emacs
22:07	cemerick	sure
22:07	cemerick	The current workaround is to disable spaces, or just change its Ctrl-up keyboard shortcut. :-\|
22:07	cemerick	seancorfield: we've tossed around the idea of producing a Clojure-only Eclipse distribution, which would help there.
22:08	brehaut	cemerick: i could get behind that
22:08	duck1123	cemerick: putting the update site on the project page would help
22:08	brehaut	eclipse seems even more daunting to me than emacs
22:08	cemerick	duit's the first "quick link"? http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/
22:09	cemerick	wow, that was a bizarre typo
22:09	cemerick	s/duit/it
22:10	duck1123	cemerick: what I'm saying is the eclipse update site should be listed there, I had to go to the main documentation
22:11	cemerick	duck1123: it is on that page…
22:11	cemerick	"Update site: http://ccw.cgrand.net/updatesite"
22:12	duck1123	hmmm... missed it. I take it back
22:12	cemerick	Not to say we wouldn't all like a prettier main site. :-)
22:18	seancorfield	cemerick: thanx for the updates... "So, except for Enclojure, these are very brief impressions indeed." :)
22:18	seancorfield	i know, i'm never satisfied :)
22:32	cemerick	seancorfield: :-P
22:33	cemerick	Fixed.
22:33	cemerick	But then, that page is beyond repair in a sorts of ways anyway.
22:49	brehaut	cemerick: theres nothing like a blog for content rot
22:49	brehaut	except maybe a wiki
22:50	cemerick	well, it's not a blog post, just a static page
22:50	cemerick	so, it's even worse :-)
22:50	brehaut	hah :)
22:50	cemerick	Translating it to a gdocs spreadsheet shouldn't be too difficult, but I never got around to it
22:53	simard	hum socket.io or websocket, anyone ?
22:54	simard	(vs)
22:54	simard	it seems that chrome and firefox handle websockets differently :S
22:54	brehaut	simard: it depends which chrome and ffx probably; the spec has changed dramatically in its short life
22:55	duck1123	aleph handles websockets pretty well
22:56	simard	brehaut: and do you know about socket.io ?
22:57	brehaut	simard: its a wrapper layer right?
22:57	simard	yeah, it claims to handle websocket on all browsers.
22:57	brehaut	(designed to work with a node.js backend in particular right)
22:57	simard	in fact, it does nore than that.. it CAN use websocket, or some other protocol
22:57	simard	(that's my reading of their website anyway)
22:58	brehaut	i presume they shim it with either long poll or browser specific backends (or flash / java fallbacks) as necessary
22:59	simard	yeah, and it's probably best like that
22:59	simard	I had webgl working fine under firefox, and websocket working fine under chrome
22:59	simard	:)
23:00	brehaut	simard: yes and no i think; if you just want bidirection messaging, you are probably fine, but i would expect some fun bugs if you were trying to do fast (near real timeish) communication over something that silently picked up a long polling shim
23:00	simard	I need real time
23:01	duck1123	the clojure library seems a bit sparse
23:01	duck1123	for socket.io, that is
23:02	brehaut	simard: http://caniuse.com/#search=websockets
23:02	simard	duck1123: hum yeah that's another good point in favor of websocket
23:03	simard	brehaut: hum... probably the way I use them doesn't please firefox
23:03	brehaut	simard: are you on ffx6 + ?
23:03	simard	I have up to date version of both ff and chrome
23:04	duck1123	simard: fwiw, I didn't have much trouble getting my simple case working in both using Aleph
23:04	simard	ff 7.0.1-1
23:04	simard	chromium 14.0.835.202-1
23:04	brehaut	simard: btw, for your webgl stuff are you doing browser detection or feature detection?
23:04	simard	brehaut: not at the moment, no.
23:05	simard	I've just seen this "Moz" text in the firefox column though
23:05	simard	that says I must use a prefix
23:23	gsymons	Hi...
23:23	gsymons	I'm kinda running into a brick wall on what seems like it should be really simple...
23:25	brehaut	gsymons: just go ahead and ask your question, if someone can help they will
23:25	gsymons	What I want to do is find the first item in a collection that returns true for a predicate.
23:25	amalloy	brehaut: ibdknox tweaked ~anyone to sound less hostile, so you can probably just use that
23:25	brehaut	~anyone
23:25	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
23:26	brehaut	(inc amalloy)
23:26	lazybot	⇒ 18
23:26	gsymons	I looked at some, but it seems that that does a linear search. I'd really prefer to use an ordered collection or map and do a binary search.
23:27	amalloy	gsymons: you can't do that for a general predicate
23:27	amalloy	if you have an ordered set or ordered map, and you want to look for keys in the right "range", you can use ##(doc subseq)
23:27	lazybot	⇒ "([sc test key] [sc start-test start-key end-test end-key]); sc must be a sorted collection, test(s) one of <, <=, > or >=. Returns a seq of those entries with keys ek for which (test (.. sc comparator (compare ek key)) 0) is true"
23:30	ibdknox_	huh
23:30	ibdknox_	never knew about subseq
23:31	gsymons	That is exactly what I was looking for... thanks.
23:32	amalloy	ibdknox_: it's kinda funny using subseq on a coll that's sorted weirdly. like, i have a set sorted in descending order, so to find the first item less than x, it's like (first (subseq coll > x))
23:32	ibdknox_	haha
23:33	ibdknox_	amalloy: I don't think there's a place where I've really needed to use it yet
23:34	ibdknox_	amalloy: I bet there are some really clever solutions that would involve weirdly sorted collections though...
23:49	cemerick	So, who here has complete trust that Google Closure is something that can be relied upon to stick around over the long haul?
23:51	sdeobald	duck1123: not midge, just clojure.test (sorry for the slow reply... was at a meetup when I installed 1.3 for the first time)
23:55	mrh0057	cemerick: I don't see them using anything else for now. I think the real questions when will they wise up and create a VM spec for the browser with all of the major players agreeing on it.
23:56	cemerick	mrh0057: I mostly agree, though Dart is a wildcard. But still, there's Closure the compiler, and Closure the set of APIs
23:57	cemerick	The latter seem particularly vulnerable to a degree of churn that many people wouldn't expect/appreciate, compared to precedents set by e.g. jquery, extjs, etc.
23:57	duck1123	sdeobald: np. I just saw that issue in migje, but it's fixed in the latest version
23:57	duck1123	sdeobald: I assume you're using clojure-test-mode, then?
23:58	sdeobald	duck1123: yep
23:58	duck1123	There's a point in the code where it calls .getRoot, should be .getRawRoot now
23:58	duck1123	I'm pretty sure it was checked in somewhere
23:59	sdeobald	duck1123: Ah. clojure-test-mode itself is calling that?
23:59	duck1123	sdeobald: yes. in the el file, there's a string that has clojure code. change it there