#clojure – 2011-10-25

2011-10-25

00:00	technomancy	sean_corfield: don't sweat the extra lisp module for now
00:00	sean_corfield	ok, i _do_ have clojure-mode but i expected the starter-kit stuff to provide slime or swank or whatever else i need
00:00	simard	is a "protocol" just a convenient way to do a "defmulti" that dispatches on the class of the object ?
00:01	brehaut	simard: thats a simplification of it
00:01	sean_corfield	i want a repl but don't have clojure-jack-in or slime-connect or swank-whatever-it-was-that-someone-recommended
00:01	simard	brehaut: what are the most striking details I'm forgetting ?
00:01	brehaut	simard: it provides performance and interop benefits in exchange for loosing some flexibility
00:01	technomancy	sean_corfield: if you don't have clojure-jack-in then you must have a really old version of clojure-mode
00:02	simard	brehaut: and apart from that, I was "right on" ?
00:02	sean_corfield	i followed the instructions... glare :)
00:02	brehaut	simard: the other major charactistic is that protocols can have multiple methods, and multis are just a single function
00:02	simard	oh..
00:02	technomancy	sean_corfield: you mentioned it's fetching from tromey.com?
00:02	brehaut	simard: go look at reify, it might be enlightening
00:02	technomancy	that would explain being way out of date if you're using that instead of marmalade
00:03	sean_corfield	technomancy: when i started trying to install the starter-kit
00:03	sean_corfield	i'm just following your starter-kit instructions
00:03	technomancy	sean_corfield: where was tromey.com mentioned?
00:03	technomancy	I thought I had removed all that
00:03	sean_corfield	i don't understand any of this emacs crap, which is why i'm following your instructions...
00:03	brehaut	simard: if you have the time and money, joy of clojure has a nice and comprehensive look at both multis and protocols et al
00:04	technomancy	sean_corfield: yeah, I'm just trying to make sure they are accurate
00:04	sean_corfield	contacting tromey.com:80 appeared in the emacs minibuffer when i was trying to install per the instructions
00:04	sean_corfield	this is the second time i've gone thru this - it didn't work properly on os x either earlier
00:05	simard	brehaut: maybe hehe :)
00:05	sean_corfield	i'm stunned at how hard it was to get emacs 24 installed on ubuntu...
00:05	technomancy	sean_corfield: even with emacs.naquadah.org?
00:05	brehaut	simard: its a very good book, even if you are familiar with a lot of its topics you'll learn valuable stuff
00:06	sean_corfield	technomancy: damein cassou's ppa for the apt-get install emacs-snapshot
00:06	simard	it seems to enjoy good reviews on amazon
00:06	sean_corfield	i recall seeing emacs.naquadah.org somewhere in my frustrating travels this evening :)
00:06	technomancy	sean_corfield: what starter-kit instructions did you use?
00:07	simard	I already own "Programming Clojure", which is why I hesitate buying a second book on Clojure
00:07	simard	for now
00:07	sean_corfield	https://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit
00:07	technomancy	the current readme mentions naquadah and not tromey.com, so you must have found something else
00:07	sean_corfield	i followed those instructions exactly
00:08	sean_corfield	tromey.com was where it looked on os x
00:08	sean_corfield	someone said i had to compile the lines in init.el and that "solved" the problem
00:08	sean_corfield	so on os x i might have .emacs file which i can remove tomorrow
00:08	sean_corfield	right now i'm focused on ubuntu
00:09	sean_corfield	so... can i query what version of things i've got in, to help debug this?
00:09	sean_corfield	ah, clojure-mode 1.11.2 it says
00:10	technomancy	if you have that version of clojure-mode, then you have M-x clojure-jack-in
00:10	sean_corfield	fwiw, it's definitely using marmalade on my ubuntu netbook
00:11	sean_corfield	when i try M-x cloj... it says no match
00:13	technomancy	wow, I have never heard of anything like that
00:13	simard	:)
00:13	technomancy	how are you finding the version?
00:14	sean_corfield	in the packages list buffer it shows the version
00:14	sean_corfield	i see clojure-mode there but can't figure out how to enable clojure-ode
00:14	sean_corfield	mode
00:14	technomancy	it's supposed to be autoloaded
00:15	technomancy	there's nothing for you to do
00:15	technomancy	you can go in and find the file in ~/.emacs.d/elpa/clojure-mode[...]/clojure-mode.el and do M-x eval-buffer
00:15	technomancy	if you want to bypass the package manager
00:15	sean_corfield	'k
00:15	technomancy	but I'm totally baffled as to why the autoloads aren't happening
00:16	technomancy	never seen anything like that.
00:16	sean_corfield	the elpa folder doesn't seem to contain clojure-mode
00:17	sean_corfield	nope... starter-kit-lisp-2.0.3 but no clojure-mode
00:17	technomancy	sean_corfield: but the package-list buffer shows it as installed?
00:17	sean_corfield	as far as i understand emacs, yes
00:18	technomancy	well, it's not installed
00:18	technomancy	maybe try M-x package-install clojure-mode again?
00:19	sean_corfield	so the starter-kit-lisp is installed but clojure-mode isn't??
00:19	lazybot	sean_corfield: Definitely not.
00:19	technomancy	right
00:19	technomancy	the lisp module of starter kit has stuff that's generic to all lisps
00:19	technomancy	it doesn't depend on clojure-mode
00:19	sean_corfield	how are folks supposed to know what to install?
00:20	sean_corfield	ok, an explicit install of clojure-mode seemed to work... sigh
00:20	technomancy	traditionally the readme? =)
00:21	semperos	I still think a "vanilla" Emacs, adding the Marmalade repo and following technomancy's instructions for swank-clojure provides the path of least resistance to getting started with Emacs
00:21	semperos	(I've not tried the starter kit myself)
00:21	semperos	for Clojure dev, I should say
00:21	technomancy	semperos: that's what I keep trying to tell folks, but everyone else insists on convincing people to use the starter kit =)
00:21	zerokarmaleft	semperos: same here
00:22	sean_corfield	but that information is not gathered in one place, is it?
00:22	semperos	https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure
00:22	semperos	three bullets
00:22	semperos	Install clojure-mode either from Marmalade or from git.
00:22	semperos	lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.3.3
00:22	semperos	From inside a project, invoke M-x clojure-jack-in
00:22	technomancy	as an overview, this covers it: http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started+with+Emacs
00:22	technomancy	possibly in more detail than is warranted, but it does focus on clojure-mode first
00:23	sean_corfield	that page starts out by recommending the starter-kit...
00:23	technomancy	yeah... I didn't write that =\
00:23	sean_corfield	but it does not make it clear what instructions cause what to be installed
00:23	technomancy	also the &#*& comments are useless, but I can't delete them
00:24	mintsoup	It implies, somewhat poorly, that installing clojure-mode is step 2
00:24	sean_corfield	oh i hadn't even gotten to the comments
00:24	sean_corfield	now i finally have clojure-mode installed(!) i can do clojure-jack-in
00:24	brehaut	people read comments anywhere in 2011?
00:24	technomancy	comments like that are unavoidable when you prohibit people from editing the wiki.
00:24	sean_corfield	but it couldn't find project.clj
00:24	sean_corfield	sigh
00:25	mintsoup	you'll want to use https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen to create a project
00:25	zerokarmaleft	good grief, these comments are complicated
00:26	zerokarmaleft	only 20+ or so steps
00:26	sean_corfield	i've got a leiningen project
00:26	sean_corfield	i've been using leiningen for ages
00:26	simard	sean_corfield: open a source file for this project before running M-x clojure-jack-in
00:26	semperos	where did you execute clojure-jack-in? what was your active buffer?
00:26	sean_corfield	the only new piece of the puzzle here is ^%$$% emacs
00:26	technomancy	zerokarmaleft: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/05/09
00:27	sean_corfield	yeah, yeah, i figured that out now...
00:27	simard	:D
00:27	sean_corfield	i got some error about symbol matching its value in reflection ???? and a buffer full of warnings
00:28	technomancy	give it a minute
00:28	technomancy	the first time you connect it has to byte-compile a few elisp libs
00:28	sean_corfield	ok, i finally found a buffer called swank
00:29	sean_corfield	also full of reflection warnings...
00:29	technomancy	sean_corfield: sooooo... where do we fix the docs, then?
00:29	sean_corfield	and it ends with proceed to jack in
00:29	zerokarmaleft	technomancy: heh
00:29	technomancy	probably start with moving the mention of the starter kit to the bottom of the getting started with emacs page?
00:29	sean_corfield	technomancy: hard to say since i've no idea where it stopped working per the instructions
00:30	sean_corfield	so at this point i have zero idea whether i have a working repl or not
00:30	technomancy	I think the main problem was there was too much distracting you from clojure-mode
00:31	technomancy	the repl buffer should be called slime-repl clojure
00:32	sean_corfield	the wiki should describe only what is needed to get this running
00:32	mintsoup	technomancy: for me, the instructions that got me up and running the fastest was https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure
00:32	sean_corfield	and it should be the single, recommended way to do it
00:33	technomancy	well, it used to be that inf-lisp was much simpler to set up than slime
00:33	sean_corfield	what about lein swank?
00:33	technomancy	but maybe it's not even worth mentioning inf-lisp
00:33	sean_corfield	i ran that in a terminal window so it's happily sitting there
00:34	sean_corfield	but none of the instructions i read got me closer to using that...
00:34	technomancy	sean_corfield: that's only necessary if you want your clojure process to outlive your emacs instance
00:34	mintsoup	clojure-jack-in should start lein swank for you
00:34	sean_corfield	that is not explained on the wiki
00:34	sean_corfield	the wiki assumes a LOT
00:35	sean_corfield	so i'm starting emacs back up
00:35	sean_corfield	what small steps should i follow to get a repl running in my project?
00:35	Raynes	I really need to get jack-in working with cake.
00:35	sean_corfield	i've opened my project.clj file...
00:36	sean_corfield	M-x clojure-jack-in ...
00:36	sean_corfield	Starting swank server...
00:36	zerokarmaleft	profit?
00:36	sean_corfield	...waiting...
00:37	sean_corfield	error in process filter: Symbol's value as variable is void: Reflection
00:37	sean_corfield	and that seems to kill it
00:38	sean_corfield	now what?
00:38	semperos	(given how many issues crop up, I now prefer a completely hands off approach; find someone who does Clojure dev in Emacs and shares their emacs config via Github; clone that puppy, symlink the init file (.emacs) to your home folder and start coding)
00:40	sean_corfield	the instructions at https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure are simpler (but don't explain how to install anything from marmalade!) and as we've just seen, clojure-jack-in does not work for me
00:41	technomancy	marmalade was a lot more important when there were three or four elisp files involved
00:41	technomancy	now that it's only one it's not so terrible to do everything by hand
00:41	sean_corfield	so, how do we debug this failure of clojure-jack-in?
00:42	technomancy	it's possible that output during startup of the process could interfere
00:42	sean_corfield	what's that "error in process filter" about?
00:42	sean_corfield	reflection warnings could cause it to fail?
00:42	technomancy	the lein process is supposed to emit valid elisp
00:42	technomancy	oh!
00:43	technomancy	it could be a :repl-init key or something
00:43	amalloy	technomancy: i think sean_corfield has warn-on-reflection set to true
00:44	sean_corfield	yes, we always run with that at world singles
00:44	amalloy	in which case Reflection would be the first word of the elisp that emacs doesn't like
00:44	scgilardi	nice one, amalloy
00:44	technomancy	oh I guess you would get that even with bare swank regardless of the project
00:44	sean_corfield	it's why i keep reporting so many reflection warnings on projects :)
00:44	sean_corfield	so i set it to false, but now i can't get it to kill the existing swank process...
00:44	sean_corfield	grrrr
00:44	sean_corfield	oh hallelujah!!! Connected!!!!
00:45	sean_corfield	i have a REPL! the angels are singing!
00:45	technomancy	ok, that is definitely a flat out bug
00:45	sean_corfield	so i can't use warn-on-reflection???
00:45	lazybot	sean_corfield: How could that be wrong?
00:45	technomancy	adding it to the "Troubleshooting" section of the readme for now
00:45	Raynes	I think the sarcasm in here is getting a little strong. Maybe we should open a window?
00:46	michaelr525	Raynes: a buffer?
00:46	mintsoup	getting emacs to work sometimes feels miraculous
00:46	brehaut	michaelr525: i think you mean a frame
00:47	sean_corfield	Raynes: it's nearly 10pm here... i've been wrestling with emacs for about five hours so far...
00:47	brehaut	the problem, when you get right down with it, is shoggoths
00:47	sean_corfield	the problem is emacs :)
00:48	brehaut	sean_corfield: and all shoggoths, emacs is corpulent, ancient, and hard to tame
00:48	brehaut	s/and all/ and like all/
00:48	technomancy	and there was one bona-fide bug there at the end
00:48	sean_corfield	so... now i have a repl... where's a nice, simple set of instructions on how to run code from one buffer in the repl...
00:48	Raynes	After using Vim and Sublime Text 2 for a couple of weeks, I appreciate Emacs in ways I can't really describe.
00:49	mintsoup	https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure has a listing of commands you can run
00:49	sean_corfield	yeah mintsoup but it's not really clear what each actually means
00:49	Raynes	One thing to keep in mind is that SLIME isn't Emacs. Slime crazy != Emacs crazy. If they're both crazy, it's for different reasons.
00:49	sean_corfield	i'm comparing this whole experience to CCW, btw, which is clarity itself compared to emacs
00:50	brehaut	sean_corfield: C-c C-e evaluates the expression under/behind the insertion point
00:50	mintsoup	well.. when i'm screwing around w/ stuff, i'll do something like C-c C-l to load my current file into the repl
00:50	brehaut	which is a decent place to start
00:51	amalloy	brehaut: that's C-x C-e
00:51	amalloy	C-c C-e evals the current top-level form
00:51	amalloy	(as does C-M-x)
00:51	Raynes	I once compared Hamburger Helper to a well-cooked new york strip steak. I was surprised to find the latter more tasty, but harder to make.
00:51	scgilardi	thanks for all your patient help, phil!
00:52	amalloy	technomancy: unclear whether your computer has run out of battery; or you're going to bed; or you're tired of helping with emacs; or your cybernetics are finally giving out
00:52	amalloy	i encourage you to not clarify
00:53	sean_corfield	in CCW, you load file into repl and then switch repl namespace, which also moves the cursor to the repl
00:53	scgilardi	bring up clj file you're interested in and verify the cursor is in it, C-c C-k to compile and load it, C-c M-p <ret> to move the repl into its namespace, C-x o (possibly more than once) to move the cursor to the repl window, run functions from that namespace by simple name in the slime repl.
00:54	sean_corfield	seems like in slime you have to do three commands? c-c c-l, c-c m-p and then c-c c-z?
00:54	sean_corfield	yeah, i noticed i also have to confirm the namespace change with RET
00:54	amalloy	scgilardi: C-c C-z nicer than C-x o
00:54	sean_corfield	makes it more work than CCW
00:54	scgilardi	yes, didn't know about it. cool.
00:54	Raynes	You could write your own command to do that.
00:54	Raynes	If you really, really wanted to.
00:55	semperos	you can always set switch buffer to whatever you like, I use C-'
00:57	sean_corfield	in CCW, you can select the form at point and expand it out to enclosing forms and then evaluate that in the repl... what's the paredit / slime equivalent?
00:59	sean_corfield	c-h a paredit brings up a lot of commands but doesn't seem to list keyboard shortcuts?
00:59	michaelr525	semperos: using right-Ctrl?
00:59	semperos	michaelr525: left Ctrl (remapped to my caps lock key) plus single-quote
00:59	Raynes	http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/PareditCheatsheet
01:00	michaelr525	semperos: i use this http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.html
01:00	semperos	michaelr525: that's for paredit, I was just referring to shortening up some of the standard C-x key chords Emacs comes with...
01:00	michaelr525	semperos: your caps lock is your Ctrl?!
01:01	sean_corfield	Raynes: gracias!
01:01	michaelr525	semperos: sorry the link was for sean
01:01	semperos	michaelr525: helps my wrist
01:01	semperos	np
01:01	Raynes	That cheatsheet is my lord and savior.
01:01	Raynes	Amen.
01:02	michaelr525	semperos: so you don
01:02	michaelr525	't use the original left ctrl?
01:02	semperos	I swap the caps and left ctrl keys
01:03	semperos	michaelr525: the only awkwardness it ever creates is doing Ctrl-Shift-Tab for going backwards in browser tabs, since it puts all three keys together; otherwise I find it quite nice across apps
01:04	michaelr525	semperos: you have something to map it globally?
01:04	Raynes	michaelr525: Your operating system likely has a way to switch the keys.
01:05	semperos	michaelr525: I use whatever is easiest on a given platform; on Mac and Ubuntu, there are built-in utilities to do that mapping; on Windows I downloaded an app
01:05	michaelr525	semperos: which app?
01:06	michaelr525	thanks
01:06	semperos	michaelr525: http://www.autohotkey.com/
01:06	semperos	from this page of the EmacsWiki: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/MovingTheCtrlKey#toc15
01:07	michaelr525	10x!
01:07	semperos	it lets you do custom key mappings, save them as executables, and even add them to your startup
01:07	amalloy	semperos: fwiw, i made ctl and caps-lock both act like ctrl. if i desperately need to SHOUT, the need to hold down shift is a good deterrent
01:07	semperos	heh
01:08	semperos	amalloy: I should quite infrequently online, but the occasional desire to capitalize my SQL commands does strike me :)
01:08	semperos	s/I should/I shout
01:09	amalloy	semperos: type lower-case, then C-a C-u M-u? :P
01:09	semperos	you got me there
01:10	michaelr525	the whole concept of remapping the ctrl seems to me amazing, it's like a new world openning up
01:10	michaelr525	;)
01:10	semperos	amalloy: for any key chord that requires more than two "clusters", I just remember the elisp function name...
01:11	semperos	as I don't like looking down at the keyboard if possible
01:11	Raynes	My hands are smarter than I am. I couldn't tell you how to spell anthropomorphism, but my hands sure can.
01:12	amalloy	Raynes: let's see if they're up to onomatopoeia?
01:12	Raynes	$dict onomatopeia
01:12	lazybot	Raynes: noun: common misspelling of onomatopoeia.
01:13	amalloy	(inc lazybot)
01:13	lazybot	⟹ 0
01:13	Raynes	Close enough.
01:13	michaelr525	bad hands
01:13	jodaro	onomatopaella
01:13	sean_corfield	hmm, so i can c-x c-e to evaluate forms in the repl and the result appears in the minibuffer but *1 isn't bound to those executions... i guess that's what CCW does too...?
01:15	michaelr525	semperos: do you also http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SwapControlAltAndCapsLock?
01:16	sean_corfield	i see kill / yank but is there copy / paste equivalent? or do i have to kill / undo (switch buffer to repl) / paste?
01:16	semperos	michaelr525: nope, I just swap caps and left ctrl
01:16	semperos	you can "copy" with M-w, instead of killing
01:16	semperos	once you've marked a region
01:17	sean_corfield	ah, right...
01:18	devn	jodaro: lol
01:18	devn	"onomatopaella"
01:19	jodaro	it's delicious
01:19	devn	it sounds delicious ;)
01:19	sean_corfield	semperos: thanx ... that works exactly how i wanted!
01:20	semperos	sean_corfield: I'm glad at least one small sliver of your Emacs revival tonight has worked just like you wanted it to :)
01:20	sean_corfield	c-m-f c-spc c-m-b m-w c-c c-z c-y
01:21	amalloy	seancorfield: ewww
01:21	amalloy	C-M-spc
01:22	sean_corfield	which specific part does that replace?
01:22	amalloy	the first three
01:22	jodaro	Raynes: wordnik sent me a bunch of swag in the mail today
01:23	sean_corfield	c-m-spc gives me containing expression ends prematurely
01:23	Raynes	jodaro: Really? They never offered me shit.
01:23	Raynes	jodaro: Wunderground is sending me swag though.
01:23	jodaro	Raynes: a t-shirt, some stickers, a couple notebooks and some mini sharpies
01:23	jodaro	oh nice
01:23	amalloy	or replace the whole thing with C-M-x, except you wanted it to appear in the actual repl as *1 i think?
01:23	jodaro	i like wunderground
01:23	jodaro	they have good weather
01:24	sean_corfield	amalloy: ok, that's more location sensitive than i realized
01:24	Raynes	And an excellent API.
01:27	sean_corfield	m-w seems a weird key combo for "copy"...
01:29	sean_corfield	it doesn't seem to be mentioned in the emacs tutorial...
01:49	sploop	Hello. Has anyone in here messed with functional reactive programming (not necessarily in Clojure)?
01:50	zerokarmaleft	sean_corfield: C-w kills a marked region, which is mentioned in the tutorial...given that, M-w makes sense
01:56	sean_corfield	zerokarmaleft: 'k that does make sense, thanx
01:57	sean_corfield	it's a lot of new keyboard shortcuts to get used to
02:05	archaic	to transform a 1x800 vector in incanter to a 800x800 matrix is taking much longer than it should, any reason (apply bind-rows (repeat 800 A)) would be really slow?
02:05	scottj	I think you can use cua mode to get normal copy/cut/paste
02:11	sean_corfield	ok, just done a bunch of git stuff from emacs... feeling happier now...
02:12	sean_corfield	scottj: yeah, i think i just need to get used to the emacs way (again)
02:14	seancorfield_	i guess i shouldnt be surprised emacs does irc too, right?
02:14	archaic	m-x erc
02:15	archaic	ehehehe
02:15	archaic	it does
02:15	archaic	web browser
02:17	seancorfield_	code in one buffer, a repl in another and irc in a third... i could get used to this... :)
02:19	seancorfield_	why is clojure.repl not loaded via clojure-jack-in?
02:20	seancorfield_	surprised me why doc threw an exception...
02:23	amalloy	clojurebot: how?
02:23	clojurebot	with style and grace
02:33	seancorfield_	ok, editing, repl, irc, shell... check... my frustrations with emacs are beginning to wash away...
02:38	lobotomy	hey everyone. i started a blog: http://lobotomys.blogspot.com/
02:38	lobotomy	first post is about clojure
02:43	seancorfield_	lobotomy: yay, more clojure! curious as to why you didn't parse the xml to a data structure?
02:46	amalloy	looks more like a reduce than a trampoline, lobotomy
02:54	mtm	seancorfield_: a few handy clojure/emacs bindings I find very useful C-c C-k (compiles the buffer into the REPL, less pain that C-c C-l), M-. (go to definition at point) and M-, (pop back from the definition)
02:56	archaic	its taking 30s to create an 800x800 matrix (of doubles) in incanter from a vector of vectors any ideas how I can improve this?
02:56	iris1	Is it the case that clojure-contrib is still at 1.2? I tried including clojure-contrib 1.3 in my project.clj and lein cannot find it.
02:59	scottj	iris1: contrib is split up into individual packages
03:02	iris1	scottj: I see, thanks! I would like to use clojure.contrib.duck-streams and was wondering what to include in my project.clj file for lein. However, now that I check, it seems that just putting clojure 1.3.0 in there makes duck-streams available. Does that make sense to you? Thank you!
03:07	seancorfield_	iris1: c.c.duck-streams has been deprecated for a while...
03:07	seancorfield_	most of what was in that namespace has gone elsewhere tho'
03:11	amalloy	books on new languages should come with a warning: "do not use any of these libraries, they will be deprecated by the time you read this"
03:12	scottj	most books on new languages don't have as many libraries as clojure to cover :)
03:20	iris1	Thank you! I fell for http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/duck-streams-api.html#clojure.contrib.duck-streams/write-lines, which does not say it's deprecated. :-( Now that you mention it, I found http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Clojure+Contrib, which explains about the modularization. :-) Where did write-lines go?
03:20	lazybot	Nooooo, that's so out of date! Please see instead http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/duck-streams-api.html#clojure.contrib.duck-streams/write-lines, and try to stop linking to rich's repo.
03:23	amalloy	haha. dang it, lazybot, you make it sound like duck-streams are okay
03:23	lobotomy	amalloy, looks like reduce? do elaborate
03:24	amalloy	lobotomy: convert the XML file into a sequence of transactions, and then reduce over that accumulating everyone's balance
03:26	amalloy	or accumulating a map of matching transactions, if you like
03:29	amalloy	iterating over a sequence of similar sub-objects to build some single larger object is the poster child for reduce
03:29	seancorfield__	ok, i seem to have clojure-mode and a repl etc working on my imac too now
03:29	seancorfield__	thank you everyone who helped!
03:31	mindbender1	Good Morning All
03:32	lobotomy	amalloy, wouldn't that require linear space though?
03:33	lobotomy	i mean, i am basically reducing the file as i go, just without using reduce
03:34	amalloy	you're using linear space anyway
03:34	amalloy	if you're building a result map, it has N entries in it
03:36	amalloy	if you're worried about the space requirements of creating the seq of transactions, you can do that lazily too
03:36	mindbender1	Why can't I evaluate symbols in a file I loaded with (load "ns/foo") then (in-ns 'ns/foo) and the symbol bar defined in ns/foo doesn't print ?
03:37	amalloy	(reduce process-transaction init-state (take-while identity (repeatedly read-single-transaction)))
03:37	michaelr`	what bothers me in emacs' key mapping is that I have to use both hands when I want to do multiple C-P and C-N
03:38	michaelr`	do you also have that problem?
03:43	michaelr525	thorwil: how do you c-p, c-n?
03:44	thorwil	michaelr525: those are bound to which commands?
03:44	michaelr525	goto previous, next line
03:45	michaelr525	C-p, C-n
03:45	thorwil	oh. i'm guilty of using cursor keys along with pos1 and end ^_^
03:45	michaelr525	shhh
03:45	michaelr525	someone could hear you
03:46	michaelr525	what's pos1?
03:46	michaelr525	home?
03:46	thorwil	yes, german keyboard here and i forget it's called different
04:01	Blkt	good morning everyone
04:02	michaelr525	hello blkt
04:16	Apage43	j3
04:28	lobotomy	amalloy, hmm, you're right about the simple case, that it's basically just reduce. could be done simplerly
04:28	lobotomy	what about the less trivial case with nested structure etc?
04:34	lobotomy	the example in the joy of clojure obviously isn't just straight up file parsing, unlike my simple example. i'm thinking they meant that more for stuff like actual non-simple parsing
04:34	lobotomy	haven't tried that with reduce, but my gut says trampoline should be more understandable for it than reduce?
05:15	pyr	the clojure wiki takes forever to load from here
05:15	pyr	so i'm just gonna ask here: where is expt now that clojure.contrib.math is gone ?
05:19	pyr	math.numeric-tower it seems
05:42	konr	Is there a special expression for all whitespace I can use in a regex?
05:44	archaic	\s*
05:44	archaic	i guess?
05:45	konr	thanks!
05:46	konr	with a plus, I think
05:46	konr	,(clojure.contrib.string/split #"\s+" "ok OK")
05:46	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.string>
05:46	konr	:(
05:52	archaic	\s+ means match 1+, \s* means match 0+
05:53	archaic	,(clojure.string/split "ok OK" #"\s+")
05:53	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.string>
05:54	archaic	,(split "ok OK" #"\s+")
05:54	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: split in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
05:55	archaic	,(require 'clojure.string)
05:55	clojurebot	nil
05:55	archaic	,(clojure.string/split "ok OK" #"\s+")
05:55	clojurebot	["ok" "OK"]
06:04	kzar	I wrote a simple noir app that scrapes a log using enlive and returns the data as json to display with jquery data tables. Now it works fine but after a while it runs out of heap space, is enlive's html-resource the right thing to use? http://paste.lisp.org/display/125491
06:06	kzar	(For each request I'm using html-resource to fetch and parse the html, then enlive to scrape out the bits I need. Maybe that's a mad way to do it, wasn't sure.)
06:12	broquaint	Doesn't enlive also provide fetching/parsing functions?
06:13	kzar	broquaint: Yea I used html-resource which is a part of enlive to fetch and parse the html, I guess that's my question - is it the right the tool for the job
06:17	clgv	kzar: enlive says it's a templating library so I guess you are missusing it
06:18	kzar	clgv: Well it's used as a scraper for dnolen's tutorial https://github.com/swannodette/enlive-tutorial but maybe you're right, maybe that was just for illustration and using for an actual scraper is mad
06:20	clgv	kzar: well, you use a profiler to find out where all the memory is allocated and leaked
06:20	clgv	+can
06:20	clgv	maybe you are just holding on to bindings that you actually dont need anymore
06:22	kzar	clgv: I've not used a profiler before for Clojure or Java (never done any Java really), is there one that's simple to use?
06:23	clgv	kzar: you can start with JVisualVM as it ships with the JDK
06:23	clgv	there is also Yourkit Java Profiler that has 30-day trial version
06:50	kzar	clgv: So I've got VisualVM running, the heap space used seems to be slowly creeping up even before I run the scrape, that normal?
06:51	clgv	kzar: I dont know any details of your program ;)
06:52	kzar	clgv: It's a very simple noir web app, one view does the scrape displaying the details as json. It seems weird that the used heap creeps up even when I'm not hitting the webserver
06:52	clgv	kzar: I guess starting the servlets needs some memory as well
07:06	archaic	mm..having (comment ...) with forced structure is somewhat annoying.. what if i want to write math equations that arn't 'properly formed' in comments around the code implementing them, is there any way around this?
07:18	morphling	archaic: do you know that ";" starts a line comment, like "//" in c++,java,..?
07:21	archaic	yeah, its not much of an issue but if I have functions written in unicode thats 6-8 lines long i would prefer to just wrap them in (comment. ) etc
07:26	dnolen	archaic: comment is a simple macro, you'll have to be ok with ;
07:33	kzar	dnolen: Do you know if using enlive as a scraper is sensible? (I mean if you're using html-resource to grab big pages a lot should it work?) I wasn't sure if your enlive tutorial just did that to illustrate how to use the library or if it's actually a good choice for scraping
07:33	dnolen	kzar: people have used it for scraping in the past and seemed happy w/ it.
07:39	kzar	dnolen: OK thanks
07:49	kzar	Did clojure.contrib.profile move somewhere in 1.3?
07:50	clgv	kzar: you might use the old one. there is a chance it might still work
07:50	kzar	clgv: I get this error "Can't dynamically bind non-dynamic var: clojure.contrib.profile/profile-data"
07:50	dnolen	kzar: doesn't look like it was moved over, tho I gotta say, it's not very useful.
07:51	clgv	kzar: you might fix that ^{:dynamic true} on the 'def if you dare to ;)
07:51	kzar	Well what is a good way to figure out what's killing my code? I loaded up VisualVM but it just seemed to give me a graph of how much memory / cpu is being used
07:52	clgv	s/that/that with/
07:52	dnolen	kzar: "killing" what does that mean?
07:53	kzar	dnolen: Well I've been running out of heap space sometimes with this little web-app scraper I wrote using enlive and noir. It just scrapes a log page, renders the logs to json for displaying in jquery datatables
07:53	clgv	kzar: go to the Sampler or Profiler tab and hit the "Memory" button for investigation ;)
07:56	kzar	clgv: Ah right, well I've done that and I can see the usage broken down by class. Apparently char[] and java.lang.Object[] are the biggest culprits but I'm still not sure how that helps me
08:00	dnolen	kzar: you might want to post your enlive code to the enlive ML, it's not hard to accidentally write inefficient enlive, other people might have insights.
08:00	dnolen	java.lang.Object[] sounds like a persistent data structure growing too large.
08:01	clgv	kzar: oh right, JVisualVM does not have information on which methods allocated that memory
08:01	clgv	Yourkit does
08:12	iris1	FTR according to http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go, "clojure.contrib.duck-streams mostly migrated to clojure.java.io"
08:33	kzar	clgv: Thanks I've grabbed that
08:38	kzar	dnolen, clgv: So in the end the problem solved itself.. guys that run this log cleared some of the backlog, so instead of 18,000 odd entries there where a few hundred. Ovbious solution now is for me to just take the first 200 results as that's all I need anyway. I had already posted on the mailing list though, will be interesting to see if they can improve on my code http://groups.google.com/group/enlive-clj/browse_t
08:38	kzar	hread/thread/5a4b2bd7ae291cab . Thanks for the help
08:50	cemerick	who here has actually used ^:const
08:53	clgv	cemerick: to get it relative - who here has actually used clojure 1.3 ;)
08:56	michaelr525	cemerick: what is ^:const good for?
09:01	llasram	Huh. The 1.3 release notes mention of it leaves me a tad confused. Are the expressions used to `def' new vars not usually evaluated at compile time? Is it explicitly about primitive values somehow?
09:05	cemerick	llasram: yeah, the changelog example isn't so great, IMO.
09:07	llasram	Is the actual effect that references to the var are derefed at compile time, and the value returned at compile time is include inline?
09:07	cemerick	llasram, michaelr525: yes: https://gist.github.com/1312660
09:09	llasram	Cool. But obviously enough, haven't used it :-)
09:36	simard	hum is there a way to spit a record to a file and read it back ?
09:37	simard	ie, is there a reader synthax for record objects ?
09:37	cemerick	yes
09:38	cemerick	just use pr or pr-str on a record
09:42	simard	cemerick: when I read it back, it says "java.lang.Exception: No dispatch macro for: :"
09:44	clgv	simard: clojure 1.3?
09:44	simard	I did a (duck/spit f (pr-str my-record)), then (read-string (slurp f))
09:44	simard	hum no
09:44	simard	1.2
09:44	clgv	thats the problem then ;)
09:44	simard	:)
09:44	simard	ok
09:45	cemerick	simard: right, sorry, 1.3-only.
09:45	raek	simard: also, use clojure.core/spit and the functions in clojure.java.io instead of duck streams
09:45	clgv	you might convert it to a map and write that map. but you'll have to remember on reading that it was your defreecord
09:47	simard	should I get my clojure-1.3 jar from clojars or directly from clojure.org ?
09:48	raek	simard: unless you need to manage the classpath manually, it's probably easier to use one of the de facto build tools (Leiningen or Cake)
09:49	simard	I'm using lein
09:49	raek	just replace [org.clojure/clojure "1.2.1"] with [org.clojure/clojure "1.3.0"] in your project.clj and run lein deps
09:49	simard	so I'm actually using the project.cl
09:49	cemerick	(and hope your other libraries are 1.3-compatible :-)
09:50	simard	I don't rely on that many libs atm, thankfully
10:05	simard	is there a way with defrecord to hook the constructor ? I want to do the following: (defrecord A [b]), (A. 1) => #cpcb.pcb.A{:b 1} but (A. (A. 1)) => #cpcb.pcb.A{:b 1} as well
10:05	simard	ie, I'd like the ctor to recognize that b is of type A
10:06	simard	the goal is to define a record like a Translation, which can combine itself to another Translation
10:06	simard	instead of cascading translations uselessly
10:08	clgv	simard: probably you shouldnt do that with defrecords in clojure
10:09	simard	clgv: probably :)
10:09	simard	perhaps designing a Simplify protocol would be best
10:09	mdeboard	Are tehre any other general development talks by Rich Hickey in the vein of Simple Made Easy?
10:09	simard	that could walk a tree of such objects and combine them
10:10	fdaoud	rest in peace, John McCarthy
10:10	mdeboard	i.e. not Clojure specific
10:13	clgv	mdeboard: does he talk of non-clojure topics?
10:13	kzar	try-clojure.org is giving me a "504 Gateway Time-out" Nginx error
10:13	mdeboard	clgv: Simple Made Easy is brilliant
10:13	mdeboard	clgv: I've watched it like 4 times
10:13	clgv	gotta look that up
10:13	mdeboard	clgv: InfoQ.com
10:13	clgv	thx
10:13	mdeboard	srsly changed how I work
10:14	mdeboard	Watched it 4 times since Thursday
10:14	fdaoud	mdeboard: what is it about?
10:14	mdeboard	fdaoud: "Easy" vs. "Simple"
10:14	cemerick	I just realized that the migration of thread-local bindings across agent sends, futures, etc. isn't in the 1.3 changelog.
10:15	fdaoud	mdeboard: as it applies to programming in general/
10:15	fdaoud	?
10:15	jcromartie	Easy vs Simple has been going through my mind all week
10:16	jcromartie	really brilliant stuff... makes me think about what really is simple
10:17	fdaoud	ok enough hype and paste the link already :)
10:17	mdeboard	fdaoud: Yes
10:17	mdeboard	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy
10:17	fdaoud	thank you, looking forward to it
10:18	mdeboard	jcromartie: I finished watching it at like 2am Thursday evening, immediately got up and refactored some stuff I've been working on
10:18	cemerick	nm, I was looking at the version of the changelog on the wiki
10:18	jcromartie	fdaoud: and pay attention!
10:18	jcromartie	fdaoud: watch it at lunch or something, when you have time
10:18	mdeboard	Yeah
10:19	fdaoud	ok, will do
10:19	mdeboard	Turned me into a proper fanboy :_\
10:19	fdaoud	how long is it?
10:19	mdeboard	an hour
10:19	fdaoud	wow
10:19	fdaoud	might have to be a 2-part series
10:19	mdeboard	it's awesome though, worth the time
10:19	fdaoud	is there a way to download it or is it stream only?
10:20	mdeboard	if you're an infoq member you can download mp3 I think
10:21	jcromartie	the slides are good though
10:21	jcromartie	I think
10:22	jcromartie	this is a really interesting article about the difference between interfaces for operation and interfaces for expression: http://blog.vivekhaldar.com/post/8950163616/gui-vs-cli-operation-vs-expression
10:23	jcromartie	I've been working on trying to come up with a GUI for a "programmable" application
10:23	jcromartie	but I'm wondering if I should just ditch that idea
10:23	jcromartie	and have power users write code
10:23	jcromartie	use a DSL to express the things that the GUI would otherwise be used to (clumsily) configure
10:24	jcromartie	then the actual GUI for users can focus on operation (getting the work done)
10:24	jcromartie	can I ask my users (internal staff) to write Clojure code? :P
10:24	simard	jcromartie: what do you use for developping GUI with clojure ?
10:24	jcromartie	simard: web apps... JS interface over HTTP APIs
10:24	jcromartie	Compojure back-end
10:33	jcromartie	I think a good API should make it easy enough for trained power users to write business rule code
10:33	simard	jcromartie: power users are rare, unless you make your DSL easy enough.
10:34	simard	I guess it all depends on who your users are anyway.
10:35	TimMc	Don't underestimate the effectiveness of forums in hacking together working configs.
10:36	TimMc	jcromartie: Have your users edit a project.clj-like file.
10:36	simard	that's true, but having to lookup forums everytime you want to do something might be considered as a problem with your software..
10:45	fdaoud	mdeboard: thanks, I logged in and downloaded the mp3
10:47	cark	where is the 1.3 version of c.c.str-utils ?
10:48	kzar	With Leiningen is there a way to add tasks, like in ruby with rake tasks. Say for example at the moment I type `lein run` to start the webserver but I wanted to make `lein cron` run a background task
10:51	zerokarmaleft	kzar: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/stable/doc/PLUGINS.md
10:51	jcromartie	simard: in this case, we provide SaaS, and "users" range from end users that just want to get their work done and go home, customer service who need to troubleshoot problems, and client account managers that handle configuration of new and existing clients
10:52	jcromartie	maybe there's a middle ground: have a GUI for certain simple if/then rules, and then allow code for rules that don't fit that range of GUI expression
10:54	zerokarmaleft	kzar: https://github.com/technomancy/lein-tar/blob/master/src/leiningen/tar.clj is a pretty simple example
11:01	TimMc	let them eat parens
11:01	kzar	zerokarmaleft: Ah thanks
11:02	simard	jcromartie: I'm looking for a way to provide SaaS for some PCB drawing application but the client side should support rendering of OpenGL. I don't need a very fast FPS, updating the screen after the user interacts with it would suffice. Do you think it's realistic to do that, considering the latency of the network ?
11:02	brett_h	where did the doc and javadoc funcs/macros go in 1.3? they don't seem to resolve for me by default when they used to previously
11:03	jcromartie	simard: if you can get away with requiring up-to-date Google Chrome, you could use WebGL for the UI
11:03	jcromartie	that would be fun :)
11:03	simard	WebGL = JS only :S
11:03	jcromartie	JS for the rendering, yes
11:03	simard	but again it could be a really thin client GUI
11:03	jcromartie	it could
11:04	jcromartie	Clojure can do OpenGL just fine
11:04	simard	yes
11:04	simard	I'm doing it right now
11:04	jcromartie	so, what's going on at the server?
11:04	jcromartie	is it layout or what
11:04	TimMc	brett_h: They might have moved to a REPL namespace.
11:05	simard	well, I said right now I'm doing OpenGL with clojure, but this might change to WebGL
11:05	simard	on the server, everything else would be going on, from the undos to the Gerber output
11:05	jcromartie	ah Gerber, OK
11:05	TimMc	,`doc ; brett_h
11:05	clojurebot	clojure.repl/doc
11:05	brett_h	TimMc: I'm very new at this, is there anything I can use to find where they may be interactively?
11:05	brett_h	Ah
11:06	brett_h	How would I have found that anyway? That's what I need to figure out :)
11:06	andrewclegg	numerics question (in 1.3)... what's the standard way to disambiguate when calling a java method that has different versions taking int, long, etc.?
11:06	simard	but I would prefer if every action was going on on the server, say, place new component, route this or that, but I'm afraid latency might kill the usability
11:06	andrewclegg	i.e. to avoid "More than one matching method found"
11:06	jcromartie	simard: (I'm only really really vaguely familiar with PCB stuff... I interned at a WAN equipment manufacturer)
11:06	TimMc	brett_h: There's a "changes in 1.3" page somewhere.
11:06	raek	andrewclegg: I think you are supposed to use the 'int' and 'long' functions in that case
11:07	raek	those functions will return primitives
11:08	simard	jcromartie: there's not much to know about PCBs anyway.. as far as the basics are concerned
11:08	jcromartie	:P
11:08	andrewclegg	raek: I'm trying to call Amount.of from here http://bit.ly/tj0bb3 and I still get that even with e.g. (int 500) or (long 500)
11:09	andrewclegg	maybe it's the enum parameter, not the numeric...
11:09	TimMc	brett_h: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.md
11:09	brett_h	TimMc: thanks so much
11:09	simard	say I write the server side PCB software in Clojure, and the thin-client in WebGL, what kind of communication channel could I use in between, and what API is there to help me doing that ?
11:09	TimMc	brett_h: I don't know where javadoc is.
11:09	TimMc	,`javadoc isn't helpful
11:09	clojurebot	sandbox/javadoc
11:09	simard	jcromartie: I could program my own TCP transaction, but I would rather not do that again
11:11	jcromartie	um, no
11:11	jcromartie	simard: what kind of latency do you really need?
11:11	jcromartie	and are you sure HTTP is too slow?
11:11	simard	jcromartie: in terms of miliseconds ? no idea, I'd have to try it
11:12	jcromartie	I mean you don't want every tick of a drag-and-drop interaction going over HTTP
11:12	cark	simard: if you're using webgl, you're either going to do http polling, http long polling or websockets
11:12	jcromartie	and if you're going WebGL you might as well use web sockets
11:12	jcromartie	since you're on the bleeding edge anyway
11:12	cark	trouble with websockets is bnrowser adoption
11:12	simard	jcromartie: it all depends how I manage to encode data for opengl to display
11:12	simard	possibly some kind of incremental update
11:13	simard	or what not
11:13	lucian	cark: as jcromartie said, webgl has shit adoption anyway. if you have webgl, you'll have websockets
11:13	cark	true
11:13	cark	then websocket is the best option
11:13	simard	so all that remains now is to have firefox, IE and chromium all support WebGL properly
11:14	jcromartie	you can require Chrome for now
11:14	lucian	firefox is pretty good too
11:14	lucian	just forget about ie and you're good
11:14	jcromartie	Chrome is like the other end of the spectrum from IE6
11:14	andrewclegg	if anyone can tell me how to create one of these in Clojure, I'll be pathetically grateful :-) http://bit.ly/tj0bb3
11:14	jcromartie	it's too good
11:14	clgv	&(resolve 'javadoc)
11:14	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! resolve is bad!
11:14	lucian	andrewclegg: wow
11:15	andrewclegg	I just get this: (Amount/of (long 500) Time/MILLISECONDS)
11:15	andrewclegg	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: More than one matching method found: of, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1)>
11:15	lucian	andrewclegg: you can probably do it with getclass, right?
11:15	clgv	andrewclegg: use typehints to tell the compiler what to use.
11:15	lucian	uh, genclass
11:17	TimMc	lucian: That's for class generation, not instantiation.
11:18	lucian	TimMc: ah, silly me
11:18	andrewclegg	woo, type hints did it
11:18	TimMc	andrewclegg: What finally worked?
11:18	andrewclegg	(def ^Integer timeout 500)
11:18	andrewclegg	(Amount/of timeout (Time/valueOf "MILLISECONDS"))
11:18	andrewclegg	#< (500, ms)>
11:19	andrewclegg	no idea why it doesn't work with (int 500)
11:19	TimMc	andrewclegg: Does Time/MILLISECONDS not work?
11:19	Apage43	wouldn't that type-hint it as the boxed type though?
11:19	andrewclegg	TimMc: yeah, sorry, that too
11:19	Apage43	(rather, isn't that (Amount/of (Integer. 500) (Time/valueOf "MILLISECONDS")) ?
11:19	andrewclegg	(Amount/of timeout Time/MILLISECONDS)
11:19	andrewclegg	#< (500, ms)>
11:20	andrewclegg	Apage43: actually, yeah, that works too without the hint
11:20	andrewclegg	(Amount/of (Integer. 500) Time/MILLISECONDS)
11:20	andrewclegg	#< (500, ms)>
11:20	Apage43	can prolly use Long. and Double. as well
11:20	andrewclegg	I wonder if there's a way to make it work without a box/unbox pair
11:21	andrewclegg	cos you can't hint a primitive, right?
11:21	Apage43	you can.
11:21	TimMc	You can.
11:21	Apage43	(def ^int timeout 500)
11:21	andrewclegg	that gives me this error:
11:21	andrewclegg	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: clojure.core$int@175ace6
11:22	andrewclegg	when calling Amount/of
11:22	simard	now, if I ever get to the point of having a functional client webgl-server pcb app pair, I will need a computer to run that server onto. I'd like to avoid setting up my own server farm (!); is there a company out there that can provide such a service, that is, running one or many java JVM, with a backed up *sql database, on their cloud ?
11:22	raek	andrewclegg: is this in clojure 1.2 or 1.3?
11:22	andrewclegg	1.3.0
11:23	andrewclegg	(print timeout) works
11:23	andrewclegg	but not (Amount/of timeout Time/MILLISECONDS) -- that get the exception I just posted
11:24	andrewclegg	not a blocker as I can make it an Integer instead -- but curious behaviour
11:27	Apage43	andrewclegg: might try wrapping in a fn and type hinting the fn arg, I think it's better able to deal with type hints when you do that
11:29	TimMc	Is ^int actually appropriate?
11:29	Apage43	well not if you're hinting a fn arg
11:29	Apage43	^int hints aren't supported for fn args
11:29	Apage43	only long and double
11:30	TimMc	mm
11:30	andrewclegg	ok, I can't get it to hint as an int or long at all, I get the "Unable to resolve classname: clojure.core$long@1fb06c9" kind of error
11:30	Apage43	((fn [^long timeout] (Amount/of timeout Time/MILLISECONDS)) timeout)
11:31	andrewclegg	will try, hang on
11:31	andrewclegg	nah, then I get "More than one matching method found" for Amount/of
11:33	Apage43	huh.
11:34	andrewclegg	I can do this: (Amount/of (Integer. 500) Time/MILLISECONDS)
11:34	andrewclegg	but then wehn I actually run my code, I get this: ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to java.lang.Lon
11:35	andrewclegg	g
11:35	andrewclegg	from the depths of the library I'm passing this to
11:35	andrewclegg	this is entirely made of wtf
11:35	andrewclegg	because I CAN'T do this: (Amount/of (Long. 500) Time/MILLISECONDS)
11:36	andrewclegg	More than one matching method found etc.
11:43	dnolen	andrewclegg: have tried running your code in master, there were some fixes recently.
11:44	kzar	If I define a multimethod with defmethod can I then pass the multimethod around just the same as a regular function?
11:44	dnolen	s/in/against
11:44	dnolen	kzar: multimethods are regular fns, yes.
11:45	andrewclegg	dnolen: haven't tried, do you know if master is published as a maven snapshot anywhere? or would I need to build and install in local repo/
11:45	andrewclegg	?
11:45	bpr	when I do (javadoc FooClass) the browser tries to load the url: %u
11:46	bpr	does anyone know what to poke to fix that?
11:46	dnolen	andrewclegg: I think 1.4.0-SNAPSHOT should work
11:46	bpr	i'm using emacs/clojure-swank
11:47	bpr	swank-clojure v. 1.4.0-SNAPSHOT to be specific
11:47	andrewclegg	dnolen: doesn't seem to, unless it's in a different repo
11:48	bpr	the fix seems straight forward, I'm just wondering if I should start looking in swank or in clojure.java.javadoc
11:48	andrewclegg	I'm gonna have to go back to this another time I think
11:48	dnolen	"1.4.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
11:48	wwmorgan	how should I download binary data at a URL? I tried using duck-streams/copy from a .openStream on a java.net.URL to a java.io.FileOutputStream but I only get half the file?
11:48	andrewclegg	nope :-(
11:49	dnolen	wwmorgan: duckstreams is deprecated. might want to take a look at clojure.java.io.
11:50	kzar	So I used to see vars def'd at the top of code with the asterix "ear-muffs", figured that was just idiomatic but now with 1.3 I get that warning unless I use ^:dynamic . I'm not really sure what the difference is or if I need them to be dynamic, so is it idiomatic to loose the asterixs or to add ^:dynamic ?
11:50	kzar	For example if I do (def row-limit 200) to set some arbritary limit
11:51	Apage43	kzar: Before, using the earmuffs implicity made the dynamic. That is no longer the case. You need dynamic if you want to use (binding ) to rebind the var thread-locally
11:52	dnolen	kzar: if you're not using (binding [...] ...) drop the earmuffs.
11:52	kzar	OK thanks
11:53	Apage43	incidentally, what are reccomendations for HTTP libraries? I've been using clj-http, but it doesn't behave nicely on non-success HTTP status codes
11:57	dnolen	Apage43: I prefer, https://github.com/rnewman/clj-apache-http
11:57	wastrel	i'm buying "the joy of clojure"
11:58	fdaoud	wastrel: have you read any other clojure books?
11:58	wastrel	no i sure haven't!
11:58	wastrel	do you have an advice?
12:01	fdaoud	wastrel: I read Programming Clojure (Pragmatic); it's alright. A second edition is on the way. I found Practical Clojure (Apress) quite disappointing. I'm halfway through The Joy of Clojure, so far it is excellent! I also have high hopes for Clojure Programming (O'Reilly), coming out in a month or two. Finally there is also Clojure in Action (Manning) coming soon, not sure about that one.
12:02	jodaro	Apage43: here is another http lib: https://github.com/neotyk/http.async.client
12:03	wastrel	glad to hear you're endorsing my decision :]
12:03	Apage43	mostly i need it to not explode if it gets 4XX status and actually still let me at the response body/headers/whatnot
12:03	wastrel	I don't have a good background in computer science, so I didn't want just a syntax book
12:04	fdaoud	wastrel: are you just starting out with clojure/lisp?
12:06	wastrel	You could say that. I've gwritten some small scripts and done a few chapters of SICP
12:06	simard	is there a way to use partial on ctors of records ? ie.. (defrecord Rotate [angle object]), (map (partial Rotate. 90) objects)
12:06	wwmorgan	downloading binary data from a URL: I only get half the file when I do (clojure.java.io/copy (.openStream (java.net.URL url)) (java.io.File. file-name)). Why might this be?
12:10	Apage43	simard: no, not really. It'd have to do really ugly reflection
12:10	simard	huuummm...
12:11	Apage43	you'd want to (map (partial #(Rotate. %1 %2) .... oslt
12:13	jkkramer	Apage43: you can set a :throw-exceptions option to false with clj-http
12:14	cemerick	wwmorgan: worksforme. Try downloading from a different site; something screwy going on with user-agent headers?
12:14	licenser	greetings :)
12:15	wwmorgan	thanks cemerick. I'll check it out
12:17	Apage43	jkkramer: oh rocksauce, thanks
12:18	jkkramer	simard: if you're using 1.3, there's a ->Rotate constructor fn you can use to do that
12:39	jcromartie	hm
12:39	jcromartie	I have a big hash map
12:39	jcromartie	32K objects
12:39	jcromartie	assoc'ing something takes a long time (.100 ms)
12:39	jcromartie	er
12:39	jcromartie	wait
12:39	jcromartie	that's .100
12:39	jcromartie	not 100
12:39	jcromartie	DERP
12:39	mdeboard	lol
12:40	jcromartie	AWESOME :)
12:40	cemerick	it's nice when that happens
12:40	mdeboard	I definitely just ( < 10 min. ago) cited Hickey in a meeting with my mgr & UI people, arguing against "braiding" a couple of disparate modules together
12:41	mdeboard	Well, I didn't cite him, but I used his words.
12:41	jodaro	did they buy it?
12:43	mdeboard	yeah
12:43	mdeboard	I wouldn't have mentioned it if it had failed miserably :P
12:44	mdeboard	basically just an argument about which app's database should be responsible for maintaining groupings of items from App A for consumption by App B.
12:45	chewbranca	cemerick: hey just saw your clutch 0.3.0 thread, looks good, thanks for all the work on clutch, has been working well for me
12:45	cemerick	chewbranca: ah, so you're using the latest snapshot?
12:46	chewbranca	cemerick: using 0.2.5 right now, going through emails and just came across your 0.3.0 refactoring post
12:47	cemerick	chewbranca: OK; keep in mind there's breakage, and maybe a little more yet to come. Trying to get the API up to fighting weight, y'know?
12:47	technomancy	simard: did I hear that you are looking for a JVM hosted in the cloud? =)
12:48	chewbranca	cemerick: I'll check out 0.3.0 sometime this week and let if you if I run into any issues
12:48	chewbranca	cemerick: ok sounds good, changes look pretty solid to me so far
12:48	chewbranca	cemerick: checking out the changelog on github
12:48	bhenry	where do i start troubleshooting if sfteepee sends a blank file to the server with (put "filename.txt")
12:48	cemerick	chewbranca: You will, but they should be minor. All necessary to support some better abstractions I have in the pipeline.
12:48	chewbranca	cemerick: very nice
12:49	cemerick	bhenry: OT, but: sfteepee? :-D
12:49	bhenry	cemerick: https://github.com/ccollins/sfteepee/blob/master/src/sfteepee.clj
12:50	cemerick	hah
12:50	cemerick	jsch is pretty evil, tho
12:51	Apage43	heh, i've used JSch with clojure before
12:51	Apage43	wrote some remote monitoring tools
12:52	cemerick	JSch's implementation is insane, and semi-unmaintained IIRC
12:52	cemerick	sshj seems to be the latest/greatest
12:52	cemerick	hugod: that's what jclouds is using these days, right?
12:53	hugod	cemerick: it is
12:53	cemerick	Is there a clojure wrapper for it yet, or is it clean enough to not warrant one?
12:54	hugod	I'm near to having a version of clj-ssh with plugabble backends
12:55	hugod	so far I have mina and jsch - not hooked up sshj yet…
12:55	bhenry	hugod: can you point me to working examples of clj-ssh? i couldn't get the complex version from the readme working, but i need to have strict host key checking off
12:57	hugod	bhenry: pallet uses clj-ssh. The new version I'm working on has a much simplified api…
12:59	bhenry	cool. if i can't get something working by the time you release i'll check it out
13:09	Apage43	yeah
13:27	seancorfield	as a follow up to my frustrations with emacs last night, yes, on the mac i had a .emacs file which was why .emacs.d/init.el was not picked up
13:28	cemerick	sounds fun
13:38	theignorati	where's clojure.contrib.seq in the modular contrib?
13:40	kij	try-clojure.org is down ?
13:41	technomancy	theignorati: depends on the particular function you're looking for iirc
13:41	theignorati	indexed
13:42	technomancy	you have to use map-indexed
13:42	cemerick	see map-indexed
13:42	technomancy	indexed was deemed too slow to be promoted
13:43	technomancy	if only I had learned the word "complect" when that discussion was going down. =)
13:43	ibdknox	lol
13:43	amalloy	technomancy: not just slow, but inflexible, right?
13:43	technomancy	amalloy: ISTR the objection was that it consed too much
13:44	technomancy	bare indexed is simpler than map-indexed since you can map over an indexed seq and just destructure in the fn
13:44	amalloy	technomancy: yeah it will cons an awful lot for an infinite sequence :P
13:44	amalloy	since it actually created a vector, not a lazy seq
13:45	technomancy	"I must not cons. Cons is the perf-killer. Cons is the little death that causes total obliteration. I will face my cons and permit it to pass over me and through me, and when it has gone past I will turn my GC to see its path. And where it has gone there will be nothing; only I will remain.
13:46	technomancy	shame that's too big for a tweet.
13:46	hiredman	technomancy: sure, but map-indexed collapses that into a single "layer" of lazy-seq instead of two, and without the overhead of building a vector and pulling it apart
13:46	technomancy	amalloy: pretty sure indexed created a lazy seq of vectors
13:46	pandeiro	is it possible to reference the first element of a js array with clojurescript?
13:47	technomancy	(map vector (iterate inc 0) s) ; yup
13:47	ibdknox	pandeiro, (aget some-array 1)
13:48	technomancy	hiredman: sure; the implementation is simpler. I'm just talking about concepts exposed to the user.
13:48	Chousuke	ibdknox: shouldn't that be 0 :P
13:48	ibdknox	Chousuke, lol. yes.
13:48	pandeiro	ibdknox: Chousuke: thanks, brainfart
13:49	pandeiro	(refering to mine not yours ibdknox :)
13:49	amalloy	technomancy: you're right. it was deprecated before i ever started using it, and i guess i misread or misremembered the source
13:51	technomancy	no dune fans in here?
13:51	technomancy	philistines.
13:51	pjstadig	technomancy: i got the reference
13:51	pjstadig	and quite enjoyed it
13:52	ibdknox	technomancy, I'm also sad that doesn't fit in a tweet :p
13:52	technomancy	I just finished it last night. interesting insights into tribalism and hero worship.
13:56	pjstadig	you'll probably still call me a philistine, since my only exposure to Dune was the William Hurt, SciFi channel mini-series
13:57	pjstadig	which i thought was actually pretty good, having no experience with the literature
13:58	technomancy	ISTR they did as good a job as you could expect trying to fit 500 pages into 2 hours.
13:58	pjstadig	i did see the 1984 Dune movie, too, which seemed like a disaster in comparison
13:58	fdaoud	technomancy: I misread tribalism for a sec there and was wondering..!! ;)
13:58	ibdknox	I really enjoyed the book
13:59	fdaoud	don't mistake that L for a D
13:59	ibdknox	much more so than any of its film adaptations
13:59	pjstadig	the miniseries was actually like 4.5 hours, but yes still not enough time
14:01	technomancy	ah, right
14:06	TimMc	technomancy: There was just some Dune discussion in here yesterday.
14:07	technomancy	and I missed it? phooey.
14:07	TimMc\|flakynet	~logs
14:07	clojurebot	logs is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
14:07	TimMc\|flakynet	:-P
14:11	TimMc\|flakynet	technomancy: My fiancÃÃ©e is rereading âDune to. I had forgotten just how much forward plot information the reader is given!
14:12	TimMc\|flakynet	(And WTF happened to my terminal's char encoding?)
14:12	technomancy	hah; I was wondering about that
14:12	TimMc\|flakynet	s/Dune to\./Dune to me./
14:14	cemerick	"drinkup" seems to be a thoroughly modern term.
14:15	technomancy	I think github coined it
14:15	bhenry	if i use (defn- …) is the information inside available from the uberjar?
14:15	cemerick	ah-ha
14:15	cemerick	technomancy: Are salesforce people going to be going along as well?
14:15	technomancy	cemerick: no, just 4 of us from heroku
14:25	mefesto	I was watching Rich's latest great talk about simple vs easy and he mentioned somewhere in the back half about using queues extensively to keep things from intertwining. Is this meant only in multithreaded use cases or no? If no, any have an example to help clear this up for me?
14:27	fliebel_	mefesto: AFAIK, it is just to loosen the connection.
14:27	fliebel_	No examples though.
14:28	mefesto	heh
14:31	jcromartie	mefesto: he meant queues as in a decoupled place to put things that other components can check
14:32	mefesto	for anyone interested he mentions queues around ~55min mark
14:32	pdk	where can you find this
14:33	pdk	clojure site?
14:33	jcromartie	pdk: infoq
14:33	mefesto	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy
14:33	jcromartie	fliebel_: why is seque traumatizing?
14:34	fliebel_	jcromartie: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-776
14:35	jcromartie	ah ha
14:35	jcromartie	I just saw that bug today :)
14:35	jcromartie	because my friend was implementing a blocking async queue in C#
14:35	fliebel_	seque is thinking of a yellow lego brick.
14:35	mefesto	jcromartie: at a high level i can understand that. it's just like fliebel_ was saying about loosening the connections. i'm failing to picture an example tho
14:35	jcromartie	he had locks and wait/pulse all over the place
14:36	Cozey	hello. i'm generating a simple jar file to be run with java -jar, but i get " Invalid signature file digest for Manifest main attributes" wtf ?
14:36	jcromartie	mefesto: so say your system wants to send emails on certain events
14:36	theignorati	is there a simple way to return all elements that two vectors have in common?
14:37	jcromartie	instead of directly calling an email-sending function, you would place your message on a queue of messages to send
14:37	jcromartie	and then an email sending agent could pick it up
14:37	jcromartie	although really, agents help decouple that already
14:37	mefesto	jcromartie: ahhh i see
14:37	jcromartie	because once you send it off you don't really care and you can continue on your way
14:37	jcromartie	but anyway, yeah
14:38	jcromartie	think of units of work
14:38	jcromartie	anyway a queue is just a really simple interface
14:38	jcromartie	and that's the real win
14:38	fliebel_	jcromartie: did that friend run into seque bugs? Or was he just doing complicated queue stuff?
14:39	jcromartie	fliebel_: he was using C#
14:39	mefesto	jcromartie: thanks that cleared it up for me. :)
14:39	jcromartie	fliebel_: so I got curious and was looking into the Clojure answer
14:39	fliebel_	ah, right. So how did you end up at my bug report?
14:39	jcromartie	the second Google result for "clojure seque" is your bug report
14:40	jcromartie	(that's some bad PR)
14:48	fdaoud	jcromartie: I listened to some of that talk (about 20mins), it's really good.. so far the part where he rips into XP/TDD is entertaining :)
15:24	devn	I wouldn't say that he rips XP/TDD
15:26	devn	It feels like ripping because people have gotten so comfortable recently with that being the only path to the promised land IMO
15:27	mindbender1	Clojurians, I hail!
15:27	mindbender1	:)
15:28	fdaoud	devn: you're right. let's just calling it poking fun.
15:28	mindbender1	Who knows the key to clojure mastery?
15:30	hiredman	the key to mastery for most things is: do it over and over again and don't be an idiot
15:30	babilen	Is there anything that would allow me to implement subcommands for a CLI tool easily? Is tools.cli the best there is?
15:31	mindbender1	hiredman: agreed. But what the best advice on how not to be an idiot?
15:32	hiredman	the easiest approach is to go on the internet and say "I am going to do X" and people will jump on you if you are being an idiot
15:33	hiredman	well, jump on you or ignore you
15:35	di-csuehs	Did clojure.contrib.io get refactored to other jars?
15:36	Raynes	The evolution of c.c.io is clojure.java.io. It is in Clojure itself.
15:36	mindbender1	hiredman: I believe you are trying to make a point. Please I'm intersted
15:37	di-csuehs	ah!
15:37	di-csuehs	I shall stop attempting to recur on my own tail
15:37	hiredman	huh?
15:38	hiredman	that was it, I'm done
15:38	TimMc\|flakynet	mindbender1: If you have a question, ask it.
15:39	mindbender1	ok
15:40	fdaoud	mindbender1 take what hiredman said and change "internet" to "#clojure" and people will tell you nicely if you are being an idiot, and suggest a better solution.
15:40	fdaoud	which is really, really nice.
15:40	fdaoud	if you want people to jump on you, go on TSS (at least that used to be the case, now it's just mostly dead.)
15:42	hiredman	if have a problem or a question about X, then figure out what you know about X, what the implementation trades offs are of implementing X
15:42	hiredman	if you
15:43	hiredman	read docstrings for the functions you use, for the love of god
15:43	mindbender1	I've never done programming before!!
15:43	mindbender1	Yet I want to live as a programmer
15:43	hiredman	then just go watch http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/
15:44	hiredman	not the be all to end all, but as good a starting point as any
15:44	mindbender1	ok
15:50	mindbender1	hiredman: more resources will always be appreciated here.. just in case
15:52	simard	No implementation of method: :simplify of protocol: #'cpcb.pcb/Simplify found for class: clojure.lang.LazySeq
15:52	simard	hum.
15:53	simard	right, so, what's the easiest way out, define simplify for LazySeq ?
15:53	simard	can it be done ?
15:56	simard	(extend-type clojure.lang.LazySeq Simplify (simplify [this] (doall this)))
15:56	simard	I did this, it seems to work, but could this lead to trouble ?
15:59	srid	closure's (and clojurescript's) websocket doesn't seem to work on firefox 7. this seems to be because of prefixing (MozWebSocket). has anyone found a workaround?
16:02	zilti	I'm getting "java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to java.lang.Integer" with seesaw, how can I fix this?
16:02	babilen	I am researching how to implement a "normal" CLI tool in clojure. I found two approaches: 1. "lein run" + tools.cli and 2. bash script like leiningen + magic ;) -- Are there other libraries/ways? In particular subcommands would be great.
16:03	Raynes	Step one would be to explain what you're actually doing to get the error in the first place. We can't help you with "I has error, please help!"
16:03	ibdknox	babilen, you can make a jar executable
16:03	amalloy	~bug report
16:03	clojurebot	A bug report has three parts: What you did; what you expected to happen; what happened instead. If any of those three are missing, it is awfully hard to help you.
16:04	Raynes	babilen: If you want it to run fast, you can use something with a persistent JVM. cake and jark both do that.
16:04	ibdknox	babilen, http://skife.org/java/unix/2011/06/20/really_executable_jars.html
16:04	Raynes	If ClojureScript isn'
16:05	Raynes	t prohibitive, you can target nodejs with it and get a script with speedy startup.
16:05	Raynes	Also, the apostrophe is placed strategically next to the enter key so as to ruin my life.
16:07	zilti	Raynes: I'm trying to do, for now, a quite simple seesaw application. As of now I have an empty window with a menubar with one menu with two entries. https://gist.github.com/1314069
16:07	zilti	Raynes: At me it's the $-Key
16:08	zilti	^^
16:08	zilti	Already sent many lines ending with $
16:08	Raynes	zilti: Could you paste the stacktrace you're getting to gist.github.com?
16:08	Raynes	That'd be helpful.
16:10	zilti	Oh. Yes of course
16:11	zilti	It's on there
16:17	fdaoud	jcromartie: are you there?
16:17	jcromartie	fdaoud: yes
16:18	jcromartie	at your service
16:18	fdaoud	jcromartie: thanks :) so I had two questions following The Talk, one of which you already answered (queues)
16:18	fdaoud	the second one is about removing conditionals and control flow from the code and using rules and declarative logic systems instead
16:19	Raynes	zilti: I looked over the code and don't see anything obvious sticking out. I'd ask about it here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/seesaw-clj
16:19	fdaoud	I can't picture how that would work
16:20	fdaoud	The Talk was totally awesome as you promised, btw, so thanks for pointing me to it
16:21	zilti	Raynes: Ok, thank you. It seems like removing the :mnemoric "fixes" it, so the problem's in there.
16:21	jcromartie	fdaoud: honestly I'm not sure about that part. declarative logic is something I've been meaning to learn
16:21	jcromartie	fdaoud: but as far as a "rules" engine, that might be simple enough to code up for a specific situation.... for instance, I'm working on something that I'd call a business rules engine
16:21	jcromartie	but I don't know if it's what Rich was talking about
16:22	jcromartie	but to expand on my system
16:23	jcromartie	the "organization" is where I draw boundaries around data in our system
16:23	jcromartie	and when something proposes a change to the system, the organization's set of rules is consulted
16:23	jcromartie	and the rules are fairly declarative
16:24	brandel	could someone give me a link to the talk (assuming there's a video), I write clinical decision support systems so rules engines are of interest to me
16:24	jcromartie	and so the rule set can reject the change or not
16:24	jcromartie	that's the core of it, I think
16:24	jcromartie	but someone please chime in if you know what Rich meant by rules
16:25	aaelony	hi, what is a good way to turn [:a :b ["blah" "old" "new"]] into [:a :b "blah" "old" "new"] ?
16:25	jcromartie	aaelony: flatten
16:25	aaelony	thx! cool...
16:25	jcromartie	##(flatten [:a :b [:c :d]])
16:25	lazybot	⇒ (:a :b :c :d)
16:25	jcromartie	well it's not a vector, but you can take it from there
16:25	aaelony	merci
16:25	amalloy	depends on what you want [:a :b [:c [1 2]]] to return, i guess
16:26	brandel	jcromartie: are you working on a general purpose rules engine like Drools, or something domain specific?
16:26	jcromartie	brandel: domain specific
16:26	aaelony	I want a vector actually, is there a better way?
16:26	jcromartie	there's a very specific sort of change we're concerned with
16:26	jcromartie	aaelony: (vec (flatten ...))
16:26	brandel	I've been trying to weigh up the advantages of adopting something like Drools vs rolling our own
16:27	jcromartie	brandel: I just don't know what a "rules engine" really offers
16:27	jcromartie	like, what's so hard about it? what are the real implications?
16:27	aaelony	jcromartie: thanks, that is what I am thinking of... but amalloy tries hard not to recommend flatten...
16:27	brandel	in our case, we have clinical experts that aren't software developers - currently our developers have to encode the clinical knowledge which can be error prone
16:27	brandel	a rules engine allows the domain expert to maintain the logic
16:28	brandel	granted, Drools isn't exactly user friendly
16:28	amalloy	aaelony: you usually don't need flatten; it's easier to instead construct your list with the right shape to begin with
16:28	amalloy	and flatten will destroy any amount of nesting you do, even levels you might "want" to keep
16:29	jcromartie	brandel: I've found that "if condition, then action" is the basic definition of a rule
16:29	amalloy	it also seems quite unlikely to me that you have a data structure that (a) needs to be flattened, and (b) needs to be a vector
16:29	aaelony	amalloy: makes sense. I'm just mining a data structure that cheshire json preferred.
16:29	brandel	jcromartie: essentially yeah
16:29	fdaoud	jcromartie: interesting. my guess is that Rich means business rules, not simple if statements. right?
16:29	jcromartie	fdaoud: well that's what I'm wondering
16:29	aaelony	amalloy: unfortunately, both (a) and (b) are true
16:29	jcromartie	what is a business rule
16:29	fdaoud	yeah
16:30	fdaoud	I dunno
16:30	jcromartie	in our case, if/then is pretty much sufficient
16:30	brandel	business rules (or in our case medical guidelines) usually just end up as nightmarishly nested if statement
16:30	fdaoud	I do wish I had a nicer way of composing "actions" together into a chain
16:30	fdaoud	with rules to determine the flow
16:31	jcromartie	but the point is that you wrap the if/then up into a single unit
16:31	jcromartie	it can just be a function
16:31	brandel	one advantage of drools is that it lets you express domain concepts as a DSL which makes it easier for non technical people to write the logic
16:31	jcromartie	brandel: from what I've seen, Drool's "DSL" is just XML
16:31	jcromartie	isn't it?
16:32	brandel	it also has unit testing built in, which imo is critical for complex logic
16:32	jcromartie	or no
16:32	fdaoud	jcromartie: in your system, how are the rules represented/stored?
16:32	joly	I'll second that Drools isn't exactly user-friendly.
16:32	jcromartie	fdaoud: right now I just have an API for defining rules in namespaces
16:33	jcromartie	as functions
16:33	brandel	no, it has it's own templating language I guess you could call it
16:33	jcromartie	I see
16:33	joly	Yeah, we don't use the XML interface. I'd like to use the DSL capabilities, but our domain model isn't exactly friendly
16:34	brandel	joly: which is a pity, given what it is trying to achieve.. maybe that old adage that you can't create complex systems for domain experts, you just create new kinds of programmers is true.. I think someone said that about COBOL
16:34	fdaoud	interesting
16:34	joly	brandel: sounds about right
16:35	jcromartie	if someone can write this Drools DSL, they can use a nice Clojure API
16:35	jcromartie	because an API in Clojure rapidly approaches a DSL
16:35	jcromartie	without custom parsing
16:35	jcromartie	macros go a looooooong way
16:35	jcromartie	and HOFs
16:36	joly	I'm still trying to get Clojure integrated into our code :)
16:36	brandel	joly: you just tell your boss that it's "Java", easy right? :)
16:36	jcromartie	but my rules engine basically creates a map summarizing the change, and passes it into the actual rules, and so the rules are functions that take the change map and return a new (or unchanged) change map
16:37	jcromartie	so the change map that comes out the other end has all of the rules effects, failure messages, informative messages, notifications (emails), etc.
16:37	brandel	jcromartie: is this something you're likely to opensource? I'd be interested in a blog post about your process at least! :)
16:37	jcromartie	sure
16:37	jcromartie	it's quite simple really
16:38	fdaoud	jcromartie: it sort of sounds like a small validation module I wrote.. same kind of idea, the validations are rules, really, and at the end comes out pass or fail/errors
16:39	fdaoud	the validations are independent and can be combined into a chain for a given type of input
16:41	jcromartie	it's a lot nicer than imperative business logic that does things at each step
16:41	jcromartie	f
16:42	jcromartie	for instance, actually sending emails from DB stored procedures
16:42	jcromartie	or only being able to raise one error at at ime
16:42	jcromartie	at a time
16:45	fdaoud	right
16:45	jcromartie	I hope to add a testing/debugging/stepping interface, too, so that you can test the rules without committing changes
16:45	fdaoud	say you're stuck with Java
16:45	jcromartie	at that point it's not just going to be a function
16:45	jcromartie	hah
16:45	fdaoud	and you have this big glob of code in a method
16:45	fdaoud	it does some work, then there's an if, some more work, other work in the else..
16:46	fdaoud	it's just plain ugly
16:46	brandel	mm, as soon as your rules become reasonably complex having tests against them is very reassuring
16:46	fdaoud	I wish there was a way to extract those "units" of work, and the if/else independently
16:46	fdaoud	chain the units of work together and have the rules decide which units to execute
16:47	fdaoud	http://commons.apache.org/chain/ is the closest I got to a possible solution
16:47	brehaut	fdaoud: its call monads
16:47	brehaut	or monadplus to be more pedantic
16:48	jcromartie	fdaoud: is there any kind of concrete example you can give of this complex glob?
16:49	fdaoud	brehaut: I know 2 things about monads: 1) I heard about them through Haskell. 2) I don't understand them.
16:50	brehaut	fdaoud: maybe its time to learn ;)
16:50	fdaoud	brehaut: what is the Clojure equivalent?
16:50	jcromartie	someone said "let" is a monad
16:50	brehaut	algo.monads for 1.3
16:50	fdaoud	or Java even?
16:50	brehaut	jcromartie: it is in the identity monad, for is also a monad in the seq monad
16:50	jimduey	let is monad comprehension for the identity monad
16:50	brehaut	(using 'monad' extremely loosely)
16:51	brehaut	and heres someone who can explain things more succinctly than i can ;)
16:51	jimduey	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Monads-Made-Easy
16:51	jimduey	:)
16:51	brehaut	haha
16:52	brehaut	that is a good link
16:52	jcromartie	so monads are single points that combine steps
16:52	jcromartie	in a well-defined way
16:52	fdaoud	ok well there's the next presentation on my list
16:52	brehaut	jcromartie: yeah, they have been called 'programable semicolons'
16:52	fdaoud	but now it's time to go do something much more primitive. make fire. cook meat.
16:53	brehaut	fdaoud: thats a curious way to write a functor
16:53	fdaoud	no new Bbq() here
16:54	fdaoud	(bbq meat)
16:54	fdaoud	much better :)
16:54	brehaut	fdaoud that was a poor quality category theory joke
16:54	fdaoud	brehaut: :)
16:54	fdaoud	great talking to y'all, to be continued..
16:54	jcromartie	so, rules can be thought of as monads
16:54	jcromartie	hm
16:55	fdaoud	I'll do my homework and watch that monad presentation
16:55	jcromartie	actually I've been creating monads all along
16:55	brehaut	jcromartie: thats highly likely
16:55	fdaoud	but gotta go for now. ciao
16:55	brehaut	they are common patterns that happen to have interesting types and shared characteristics
17:00	zilti	I'd like to do this, but as of now it isn't working because defmacro evaluates the function before adding the ~x: (defmacro vk [x] `(Integer/parseInt KeyEvent/VK_~x)) I've never done macros before, but this should be possible somehow, right?
17:03	brehaut	zilti: if you are attempting to fuse ~x onto VK_ then i think you might be out of luck
17:03	brehaut	you probably want to look at the . (dot) special form
17:04	zilti	hmm
17:05	zilti	Yes, it was my intention to fuse it onto VK_
17:06	dnolen	jimduey: so w/ Friedman and Byrd making an appearance, I think we have a real KanrenConf ;)
17:07	brehaut	,(macroexpand '(Integer/parseInt 1)) ; zilti
17:07	clojurebot	(. Integer parseInt 1)
17:07	dnolen	jimduey: I started looking over the original Kanren paper this morning, it actually looks they had some nifty ideas there for controlling the size of the substitution map. Need to dig in.
17:07	jimduey	dnolen: Yeah, that's going to be awesome.
17:08	jimduey	that would be great and open up more places where it could be used.
17:08	dnolen	jimduey: yes!
17:08	jimduey	that BOF session you listed would be great.
17:09	dnolen	jimduey: it would also be sweet to hear them give a description on cKanren in their own words
17:09	jimduey	I've been mulling the idea that *Kanren is a DSL for doing logic programming. And what it might have in common with other DSL's
17:10	dnolen	jimduey: that is interesting ...
17:12	Raynes	technomancy: ping
17:13	babilen	ibdknox, Raynes: Thank you (had people coming over directly after asking the question) -- All I need now is a good command line argument parses. It looks as if tools.cli is the best one that is available for clojure, or am I missing something?
17:13	llasram`	zilti: perhaps? (defmacro vk [x] (symbol (str "java.awt.event.KeyEvent/VK_" x)))
17:14	zilti	llasram`: I have (defmacro vk [x] `(Integer/parseInt (eval (str "(. KeyEvent VK_" ~x ")")))) by now but that gives me a numberformatexception
17:16	joly	zilti: llasram's approach should work
17:16	zilti	joly: Indeed it does
17:21	zilti	But why?
17:21	zilti	Ah I see.
17:22	zilti	But there's one more problem now. The result should get converted to Int using Integer/parseInt...
17:23	joly	zilti: so you could do something like `(Integer/parseInt ~(symbol (str "KeyEvent/VK_" x))))
17:23	llasram`	no no
17:23	llasram`	The VK_ static members in KeyEvent are already ints
17:24	zilti	Obviously they aren't in Clojure
17:24	zilti	Clojure converts them to Long
17:25	zilti	So I have to cast them back into Int
17:25	llasram`	Are you sure? If you pass them to a Java method expecting an int, Clojure will cast them for you
17:26	zilti	llasram`: No, Clojure unfortunately doesn't cast them for me
17:26	brehaut	zilti: if you just want to cast a long as an int, then (int n)
17:26	llasram`	And even then, you wouldn't use parseInt. Clojure `int' will give you an explicit primitive int, and Java Integer/valueOf will give you a boxed Integer
17:28	llasram`	zilti: Hmm. That's odd. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to. 1.3 numerics page: "When calling back to Java for interop, conversions to a smaller primitive type are checked for overflow, so no safety is lost."
17:28	zilti	Oh. It seems like seesaw is internally converting it to long and then passes it to java. Stupid.
17:29	llasram`	Ah
17:29	zilti	At least that's the only possibility
17:30	joly	,(type java.awt.event.KeyEvent/VK_ENTER)
17:30	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
17:31	zilti	,(type (int java.awt.event.KeyEvent/VK_ENTER))
17:31	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
17:31	zilti	???
17:31	lazybot	zilti: How could that be wrong?
17:31	llasram`	zilti: Not necessarily. Because Clojure 1.3 only supports longs, applying any operations to the number you pass in will convert it to a Long again
17:31	joly	Clojure 1.3 is changing it to Long due to the numerics changes
17:32	zilti	,(type Integer/valueOf java.awt.event.KeyEvent/VK_ENTER)
17:32	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to find static field: valueOf in class java.lang.Integer, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
17:32	joly	,(type (Integer/valueOf java.awt.event.KeyEvent/VK_ENTER))
17:32	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
17:34	robermann	hello, just discovered labrepl (https://github.com/relevance/labrepl). FYI I've noted that the default project.clj configuration, which requires clojure 1.3, does not work out-of-the-box. If I specify the dependency at clojure 1.2 it works.
17:35	dnolen	zilti llasram` joly that behavior is changed in master at the moment. the conversion of primitive ints to Long no longer happens.
17:35	technomancy	Raynes: pong
17:35	joly	interesting
17:36	Raynes	technomancy: How do you feel about moving your Leiningen search stuff out into a separate library? I'd like to use it in cake. I'm also offering to do all the work on it (already working on it).
17:37	llasram`	dnolen: I saw that. Pretty minor change-code wise -- it'll be interesting to see how that plays out.
17:37	zilti	dnolen: I wonder why this has been done in the first place. It's just a memory eater.
17:37	technomancy	Raynes: I was planning on that since it needs to go into clojars too
17:38	dnolen	zilti: do you mean boxing in general?
17:38	technomancy	minus the downloading and printing part of course
17:39	technomancy	although apart from downloading and CLI output there's really not much to it.
17:39	technomancy	it's all in clucy
17:39	Raynes	Why not keep the downloading part in the library? It's useful and general enough, I'd think.
17:40	zilti	dnolen: Well especially that Int-to-Long boxing
17:40	zilti	Did you know that yesterday the inventor of Lisp died?
17:40	Raynes	It's actually a fairly substantial portion of the code, and the part that would be the most painful to not be able to reuse.
17:41	technomancy	I guess so.
17:42	technomancy	though apart from the unzip function (which arguably belongs in clojure.java.io) it's really just a mashup of io/copy to a tempfile and deciding where the files go
17:43	technomancy	but I guess if you just provide it with a base home dir in which to store the indices it's pretty generla
17:43	technomancy	general
17:43	Raynes	Right, that's what I did.
17:44	Raynes	technomancy: Also, unrelated, but clojure-jack-in is awesome. Thank you for it.
17:44	technomancy	thanks! I'm pleased with how it turned out.
17:44	technomancy	it's still a bit of a mess if your project has output upon booting like :warn-on-reflection. but now that it stashes the elisp it's a lot more friendly.
17:47	zilti	technomancy: About the clojure-mode and swank-clojure I have a question - Why isn't the stuff evaluated using C-c C-l available in the slime repl?
17:48	technomancy	zilti: probably the repl is in the wrong ns?
17:48	zilti	Oh. facepalm
17:50	Raynes	technomancy: When I'm done here, I'll put this in a repository and give you write access. Unless you want to make the repo and give me write access? Whichever is fine.
17:51	Raynes	I've named it 'sherlock', by the way. Can change if you have a better name handy.
17:51	technomancy	not at all; I approve.
17:51	technomancy	although there's some precedent with the Mac System 9 file search program.
17:52	Raynes	heh
17:52	technomancy	so it's best if you create the repo to draw off the Apple lawyers
17:52	Raynes	Gotcha. ;)
17:53	technomancy	wow, this is hilarious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sherlock3.6.2.png
17:54	technomancy	"You can search a lot of different things on the Internet... all through one program."
17:55	brehaut	its amazing that there was a time when that wasnt obviously the web browser
17:55	zilti	good ol' times
17:56	technomancy	hmm... actually adding deps to leiningen really complicates packaging.
17:56	technomancy	because that would mean that there'd have to be a .deb for sherlock
17:57	Raynes	Oh how I despise software repositories.
17:57	technomancy	so I may end up just sticking with my bundled ns because pulling in a 3rd-party package would only save about a page worth of code.
17:57	technomancy	but it will still be useful for clojars.
17:57	Raynes	Or suppositories, more liek.
17:57	airolson	lol
17:58	Raynes	technomancy: That's fine. I still have reason to do this, since I need it for cake. I'll happily maintain/keep it up-to-date with Leiningen as much as possible.
17:59	technomancy	cool. I don't think it's likely to change much given that the maven index format has been stable for aeons.
17:59	Raynes	Right.
17:59	technomancy	though there are a few weird things about the field structure it that I haven't been able to figure out
18:00	technomancy	but I think that has more to do with documenting how your form queries than actually changing the functions
18:00	technomancy	according to luke, the description field is indexed, I haven't been able to query against it
18:00	technomancy	could be using the wrong analyzers.
18:01	technomancy	so if you figure that out I would be interested in finding out what's going on there
18:05	Raynes	technomancy: These have got to be the worst keywords I've ever seen. :u, :i, :n, :d… infuriating.
18:05	technomancy	yeah... I don't know if that's intended to reduce index size or what
18:05	technomancy	I'm pretty sure that's not how lucene works
18:06	technomancy	once you see some examples of what's in them it's pretty clear what they're for, but it's weird.
18:06	technomancy	I found Luke to be a helpful tool, despite the awkward gui.
18:07	Raynes	Thanks for the tip.
18:08	Raynes	I'm figuring out what these things mean so that I can make the parsing bit a little more general.
18:10	Raynes	technomancy: Surely this is the prettiest UI you've ever worked with!
18:11	technomancy	...
18:11	Raynes	I especially like the cigarette-stain coloring.
18:20	stuartsierra	hi Stu
18:20	stuarthalloway	hi stuartsierra
18:29	patchwork	hey #clojure, what would cause my lein repl to fail? here is the stacktrace: https://gist.github.com/1314550
18:30	patchwork	It must be one of my deps?
18:30	patchwork	here they are: https://gist.github.com/1314554
18:31	patchwork	here are my dev deps: https://gist.github.com/1314559
18:31	patchwork	I just type > lein repl and everything blows up
18:31	gtrak`	why is clojure-source 1.2?
18:32	patchwork	there is something weird about lein where it uses 1.2 internally
18:32	stuartsierra	WHAT is clojure-source?
18:32	abedra	^
18:32	patchwork	even though I am using 1.3
18:32	patchwork	it is something for swank-clojure to do stacktraces?
18:33	patchwork	I think
18:33	patchwork	I can try taking it out
18:33	ibdknox_	take it out
18:33	technomancy	it's for the cdt debugger IIRC
18:33	patchwork	so you are thinking this is in the dev deps?
18:34	patchwork	technomancy: That is it
18:34	patchwork	I was messing with cdt
18:34	patchwork	Hmm… same problem
18:34	technomancy	can you paste the whole project.clj?
18:36	patchwork	Aha, just figured it out
18:36	patchwork	I had a :java-source-path in there that made it fail
18:36	patchwork	weird
18:36	patchwork	has java source handling changed recently?
18:37	technomancy	patchwork: shouldn't have. what was the value?
18:37	patchwork	:java-source-path [["src/java"]
18:37	patchwork	["test/java" :debug true]]
18:37	patchwork	I have some java code in there
18:37	patchwork	is there a better way to do that?
18:38	patchwork	possibly putting java code somewhere besides /src and /test?
18:38	patchwork	anyhow, thanks for helping.
18:38	Raynes	technomancy: Any idea that :i is? The first segment is obviously a timestamp, but I'm not sure about the rest of them. Google isn't being helpful.
18:39	Raynes	It's the only one I can't figure out.
18:39	robermann	patchwork: maybe the source code is not the aligned with your library; you depends on org.clojure/clojure "1.3.0" but require the dev clojure-source "1.2.0"
18:40	patchwork	what is the estimate on lein running 1.3?
18:40	technomancy	patchwork: many months unless someone wants to step up
18:41	patchwork	technomancy: what is holding it back currently?
18:41	patchwork	I could be interested
18:41	technomancy	patchwork: well, the upgrade can't happen until version 2.0 because it would break a huge # of plugins
18:41	technomancy	so we need to finish 1.6.2 first
18:41	patchwork	I just upgraded my project to 1.3, it was not so bad
18:41	technomancy	then switch to using aether instead of maven-ant-tasks
18:42	patchwork	Yeah, so it is plugins using contrib, not lein proper?
18:42	technomancy	yeah
18:42	technomancy	but if leiningen upgrades, it will break the plugins
18:42	patchwork	Hmm… is no one working on these plugins anymore?
18:43	technomancy	well, it doesn't matter if they're maintained or not, it's not OK to go breaking plugins in a minor point release.
18:43	patchwork	I see
18:44	patchwork	is there a definitive list of lein plugins?
18:44	technomancy	if you are ok with using the master branch, the 1.3 upgrade could happen sooner
18:44	technomancy	but the full release is still going to be a ways away
18:44	patchwork	Yeah I am fine with that
18:45	patchwork	you have something on master?
18:46	patchwork	for instance, I know I am not using any 1.2 plugins
18:46	patchwork	so that would not be a block
18:46	srid	can this be simplified? -- (or (parse-foo x) (parse-bar x) (parse-baz x) ..... repeats about 15 times)
18:47	amalloy	srid: some
18:47	patchwork	srid: put all those functions in a list?
18:47	amalloy	(some #(% x) [parse-foo parse-bar....])
18:47	srid	hmm
18:49	robermann	can I query which version a repl is using, inside the repl itself?
18:50	ibdknox_	,clojure-version
18:50	clojurebot	{:major 1, :minor 3, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
18:50	ibdknox_	robermann: ^
18:50	robermann	thanks
18:51	robermann	, (class (* 1000N 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000))
18:51	clojurebot	clojure.lang.BigInt
18:51	robermann	mmm
18:52	robermann	does not work in 1.2
18:52	amalloy	,(clojure-version) ;; this too
18:52	clojurebot	"1.3.0"
18:52	robermann	ok
18:52	amalloy	robermann: 1.2 doesn't have 1000N reader format
18:53	robermann	yes, just trying some examples from labrepl
18:54	robermann	its project.clj requires clojure 1.3 but it does not start the local http server
18:54	robermann	so I was reverting my local dependency to 1.2
18:55	robermann	(but of course some example does not work) - I guess I cloned the wrong branch
18:57	seancorfield	in emacs clojure-mode, how do i always set paredit-mode when i visit a file?
18:58	amalloy	seancorfield: add a hook to clojure-mode-hook
18:58	rafl	adding to clojure-mode-hook should do. or you can use something more sophisticated such as aspect.el
18:58	amalloy	(add-hook clojure-mode-hook (lambda () (paredit-mode 1)))
18:59	seancorfield	thank you amalloy and rafl !
18:59	gtrak`	does that get saved off somewhere?
18:59	clojurebot	Pardon?
18:59	gtrak`	not you clojurebot
19:03	Raynes	seancorfield: How's the Emacsing going?
19:03	robermann	about labrepl: with 1.3 the command script\swank fails because the class clojure.lang.ILookupHost does not exist (anymore?)
19:03	seancorfield	nice... auto-paredit mode... thanx... btw, needed 'clojure-mode-hook
19:04	Raynes	amalloy: Shame on you for giving him broken code.
19:04	seancorfield	Raynes: i'm forcing myself to use only emacs for a week... i wouldn't quite say i'm enjoying it but i'm not hating it either
19:04	seancorfield	it is a bit frustrating tho'...
19:04	Raynes	I did that with Vim and Sublime Text 2.
19:04	seancorfield	c-x o feels like an unnatural shortcut to cycle thru windows
19:05	archaic	very easy to change that, i have
19:05	seancorfield	and sometimes i do something that completely changes my layout and it takes several keystrokes to get it all back again
19:05	seancorfield	archaic: what's a good binding for other-window? (and how do i change it easily?)
19:06	robermann	I'm using tabbar-ruler and tabbar packages
19:06	robermann	they give you graphical "tabbed" frames
19:06	seancorfield	hmm c-tab is not used for anything else... that would suit me...
19:07	rafl	seancorfield: i used to be annoyed by that as well. then i just got used to windows appearing and disappearing as needed and was much happier than before with manual layout setup or various extensions that help with keeping one layout or switching between multiple layouts
19:07	archaic	seancorfield: first find out what the command is called using c-h k c-x o it will be other-window
19:07	duck1123	seancorfield in 1 week: I'm never using anything other than emacs
19:08	archaic	then (global-set-key key-name 'function-name) or something similar
19:08	Arafangion	At work, I map C-w-P{h,j,k,l} to each of the windmove functions.
19:08	Arafangion	C-w-{h,j,k,l}, rather.
19:09	archaic	as to what I use .. S in a modal mode so you probably want something different ;)
19:10	Arafangion	seancorfield: The main thing that prevents me from using emacs, is not knowing how to modify the default indentation well (to agree with teh project team so that it's consistent), and poor support for visual studio and xcode files.
19:12	robermann	'night
19:13	lnostdal_	stuarthalloway, look for the text "possible fixes" in that report .. it mentions "removing it" as one option, and replacing it with "1.7" as another option ( CLJ-856 )
19:13	lnostdal_	or, actually, it says "omit the option at all" .. not "removing it" .. but yeah
19:14	seancorfield	i ended up with (global-set-key (kbd "<C-tab>") 'other-window)
19:15	seancorfield	my emacs experience just got a whole bunch smoother :)
19:15	Arafangion	Ugh, my fingers would hate that keyboard shortcut.
19:16	seancorfield	Arafangion: so far emacs clojure-mode indentation seems to match CCW so that works for us...
19:16	Arafangion	seancorfield: Nice. :)
19:16	seancorfield	we'll see if we run into issues when there's more of us editing the clojure code with different editors...
19:16	Arafangion	seancorfield: I'm using C#, Python, C++, and ObjC most of the time. :(
19:17	lnostdal_	i use C-tab for this too .. thumb + ring finger
19:17	Arafangion	I prefer vi-style window changes.
19:17	Arafangion	Hence C-w-{h,j,k,l}
19:18	Arafangion	More accurate, too. :)
19:18	Arafangion	seancorfield: Sometimes I wonder if I shoudl consider a 'code reformatter' for providing a consistent style.
19:18	archaic	i used to use something like that but found having 4 keys for 3-5 buffers way overkill
19:19	Arafangion	archaic: I frequently want to switch between two buffers without wanting to cycle through six buffers.
19:19	Arafangion	archaic: Also, it's the same as vim.
19:27	hiredman	we have a commit hook at work that runs the code through emacs (clojure-mode) in batch mode before letting you commit
19:27	hiredman	(I have it disabled of course)
19:28	technomancy	hiredman: not so loud, dan larkin will hear!
19:28	hiredman	LET HIM HEAR!!!
19:30	Arafangion	hiredman: Could I have that script?
19:31	hiredman	should ask danlarkin, he wrote it
19:31	danlarkin	whatever it is I disclaim all responsibility
19:31	danlarkin	hiredman: you bastard
19:31	Arafangion	danlarkin: Could I have a copy of that script, it'd be useful. :)
19:32	hiredman	k
19:32	Arafangion	danlarkin: Client-side of course... It'd be a sick bastard who installs it server side without an option to bypass it. :)
19:32	danlarkin	I'd do that in a heartbeat
19:32	Arafangion	danlarkin: I'll wear gloves.
19:33	hiredman	and we have tests in our test suite that check for too long lines, etc
19:33	Arafangion	Nice.
19:33	Arafangion	Actually, I have to go to work in... 5 minutes ago.
19:33	hiredman	like living in a jail :)
19:34	Arafangion	So I'll look for your names when I'm back! :)
19:34	danlarkin	but at least the jail is clean
19:34	danlarkin	unlike the outside
19:34	Arafangion	I'll keep the gloves on.
19:34	Arafangion	Adios!
19:39	duck1123	Does anyone happen to know what I need to do in my site to use joda-time with MongoDB
19:39	duck1123	I'm using Karras, but I suspect there's a wrapper-agnostic solution
19:44	duck1123	I think I may have found it
19:53	stuarthalloway	nathanmarz: boxing to Integers is insane, man!
19:56	stuarthalloway	ok, that was just baiting, but I would discuss if you were around ...
20:06	amalloy	stuartsierra: that change got applied already though, right? so it's less urgent to argue about whether it's a good idea
20:06	stuartsierra	huh?
20:07	stuarthalloway	amalloy: it can still be reverted
20:07	stuarthalloway	and it should be
20:09	cark	so i can (:refere-clojure :exclude [sequence]) from a namespace, but how do i use this namespace from another namespace, without raising errors ?
20:09	cark	in 1.3
20:10	stuarthalloway	cark: you can't, and you shouldn't. avoid :use
20:10	cark	hum ok my bad, i was redifining it a 3rd time =P
20:10	stuarthalloway	I do 98% require/as, 2% use/only
20:10	cark	stuarthalloway: well that's open to discussion
20:11	stuarthalloway	cark: that discussion was had, during design of ClojureScript
20:11	stuarthalloway	you can see where it led...
20:12	cark	you guys came to a conclusion, and i respect that
20:12	cark	but in some cases it's cumbersome to always qualify stuff
20:13	cark	with smallish namespaces (as i think they should be) that's no trouble at all
20:13	cark	even tho clojure.core is all but smallish
20:13	cark	not a very good example in that case, but necessary
20:13	stuarthalloway	cark: fair enough
20:13	pandeiro	cark: dunno if it's ghetto of me but i def a few aliases up top when there's a long qualifier i dont like
20:14	cark	i guess tules are made to be broken =)
20:14	stuarthalloway	although i find the size of the overall project to be a bigger driver than the size of the namespaces
20:14	cark	tules/rules
20:14	stuarthalloway	s/tules/rules
20:14	stuarthalloway	s/tules/rules/
20:15	cark	i often have to dive in the source while having customers on the line, so finding stuff quickly is most important
20:15	stuarthalloway	IRC bots are like those college games that depend on only a few cool kids knowing the rules
20:16	cark	s/tules/rules
20:16	cark	i think only me could have done that, but it's too late
20:17	cark	anyways : my point is i'd rather have small numerous namespaces where i can find stuff real fast, than few larger namespaces
20:17	cark	even at the cost of a larger project
20:17	hiredman	speaking of "a few cool kids knowing the rules"
20:17	stuarthalloway	cark: totally agree
20:17	stuartsierra	oops
20:17	cark	damn there are to stuarts
20:18	abedra	two even
20:18	scgilardi	cark: does use/only not work for you: like: (:use [some.ns :only [f1 f2 fred fblue]])
20:18	redinger	cark: Have you ever seen them in the same place at the same time, though?
20:18	stuarthalloway	s/to/two
20:18	stuartsierra	Two odd, from my point of view.
20:18	stuarthalloway	fuck you bot
20:18	cark	s/to/two
20:18	cark	s=/
20:18	cark	scgilardi: yes i do use that quite extensively
20:19	cark	anyways thanks for the input
20:21	cark	working on yet another parsing library... matching on any state, and trampoline based, passing continuations for error and success
20:21	cark	rather failure and success
20:21	ninjudd	Raynes: i told you everyone loves the s/foo/bar/ functionality of lazybot. you shouldn't have turned it off
20:22	cark	parsing text is covered by other libraries already, but this parsing pattern is usefull in many other cases
20:23	cark	but you get crazy long traces when the usefull stuff at the bottom raises an exception
20:23	nathanmarz	stuarthalloway: hey
20:23	Raynes	stuarthalloway: As ninjudd just alluded to, I disabled the automatic s/// stuff in lazybot. Figured more people hated it than liked it.
20:23	stuarthalloway	nathanmarz hi
20:23	stuarthalloway	Raynes: it was the only bot feature I ever understood :-)
20:23	nathanmarz	i'm pretty happy with the change
20:24	stuarthalloway	figured you would be, but you shouldn't be
20:24	stuartsierra	s/happy/demoralized/
20:24	nathanmarz	ok
20:24	hiredman	but what is the point of the feature on irc? it can't go back and edit what has been typed
20:24	nathanmarz	did something break?
20:24	stuarthalloway	the good news is that with the change to hash semantics the problem of Integer is greatly reduced
20:25	stuarthalloway	so I can live with the new boxing rules
20:25	stuarthalloway	but they are strictly harder to understand
20:25	stuarthalloway	and they don't help people doing interop
20:25	ninjudd	hiredman: you know what would make it even more awesome? if clojurebot did it instead of lazybot
20:25	stuartsierra	How many damn bots are there?
20:25	hiredman	ninjudd: eyeroll
20:25	nathanmarz	you can only get ints via interop, right?
20:25	redinger	clojurebot: how many bots?
20:25	jcromartie	http://i.imgur.com/xblF4.gif
20:25	clojurebot	Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
20:26	hiredman	stuartsierra: depends on how many you have on ignore
20:26	stuarthalloway	nathanmarz: now you can get Integers from other Clojure fns that end with an interop call
20:26	nathanmarz	right, which is interop
20:26	stuarthalloway	consider this line of code (make-map (foo) 1 (bar) 2)
20:27	nathanmarz	boxing ints as Longs doesn't change the fact that the interop might return you an Integer anyway
20:27	Raynes	ninjudd: He wouldn't do it at all, I imagine. Because he's so much better than amalloy and I, I guess.
20:27	nathanmarz	so you still have to worry about it in clojure land
20:27	nathanmarz	w
20:27	stuarthalloway	nathanmarz: true, but that is easy to see
20:27	nathanmarz	why is that easier to see than "int"?
20:27	stuarthalloway	and only a few very badly designed APIs return the box types
20:27	brehaut	arrows!
20:28	stuarthalloway	the example again: (make-map (foo) 1 (bar) 2)
20:28	cark	stuarthalloway: like APIs designed with clojure 1.2 =)
20:28	stuarthalloway	if make-map makes a Clojure map, then thanks to the hash fix, we don't care about Integer / Long
20:28	stuarthalloway	if make-map makes a Java map, then I have to know what foo and bar do to know if it will work
20:29	stuarthalloway	which I can deal with by saying (make-map (long (foo)) 1 (long (bar)) 2)
20:29	nathanmarz	there's legitmate reasons to return boxed types direclty, such as if you want it to be nullable
20:29	Raynes	stuarthalloway: Precisely two bots.
20:29	stuartsierra	Raynes: that was me
20:29	stuarthalloway	nathanmarz: and a ton of those would argue against my position
20:29	Raynes	stuartsierra: You should strongly consider changing your first name to Jim.
20:30	stuarthalloway	the flip size is that boxing doesn't help you much if you have to have a specific box type
20:30	brehaut	Raynes: hsbot is not a bot‽
20:30	stuarthalloway	so you need a boxed int, and say (.foo x), knowing that foo returns an int
20:30	Raynes	brehaut: Well, vocal bots then.
20:31	stuarthalloway	but then it breaks if you add anything else to it: a math op, a simple local let...
20:31	nathanmarz	hold up, what breaks?
20:31	stuarthalloway	won't be a boxed int anymore
20:31	nathanmarz	(let [y (.foo x)] changes the type?
20:31	nathanmarz	wouldn't y just be an Integer
20:32	stuarthalloway	Clojure doesn't use Integers
20:32	stuarthalloway	certainly (+ 1 (.foo x)) will return a long
20:32	nathanmarz	i have no problem with math ops always returning Longs
20:32	stuartsierra	Raynes: "Jim Sierra." No.
20:32	nathanmarz	they're creating brand new values
20:33	stuarthalloway	I should try the let case, haven't read what rhickey did
20:33	Raynes	stuartsierra: To be fair, Jim wouldn't help me either. There is another jim in here that would mess with my tab complete.
20:33	nathanmarz	the results of a function don't need to math the type of the inputs
20:33	nathanmarz	like any other function
20:33	danlarkin	how about Ronaldo Sierra
20:33	stuartsierra	Raynes: I know a Sierra Stuart, but that's a girl.
20:33	Raynes	I can get on board with that.
20:33	nathanmarz	i was testing the Integer stuff, and you can definitely create Integer objects
20:33	nathanmarz	and pass them around
20:34	nathanmarz	you can get primitve ints too
20:34	nathanmarz	it's just that clojure decides to box as Long if that value needs to be boxed
20:35	nathanmarz	my view is that since integers ultimately come from interop, then if you get the value from interop and send it back to "interop land", it should have the same type
20:35	stuartsierra	but you can't get an unboxed int, even from interop
20:35	nathanmarz	let me find the code that shows how
20:36	nathanmarz	it was on that thread
20:36	stuarthalloway	stuartsierra; you can if directly chaining two Java things
20:36	stuartsierra	hmm
20:36	nathanmarz	i was able to let -bind a primitive int
20:38	nathanmarz	http://pastie.org/2759419
20:39	stuartsierra	Isn't that a decision made by the compiler?
20:39	nathanmarz	what do you mean?
20:39	stuartsierra	In Java the language, aren't overloaded method calls resolved by javac?
20:40	stuartsierra	I.e., not at runtime?
20:40	duck1123	what if you hint the x?
20:40	duck1123	I don't have it running
20:40	nathanmarz	i don't know
20:41	brehaut	stuartsierra: yes i think so
20:41	stuartsierra	Then in Clojure it would be the job of clojure.lang.Compiler making the same decision.
20:41	duck1123	so, I get :int for this. Is that what I'm supposed to have?
20:42	stuarthalloway	nathamarz: I don't think that is binding a primitive
20:42	stuarthalloway	compiling now in order to read the bytecode
20:42	stuartsierra	My point is simply that overloaded methods, such as nathanmarz's example, are resolved by the language compiler, not by the JVM.
20:45	hiredman	given that let supports primitive bindings, and it would take extra work to disable it for the int case, and as far as I can tell from reading clojure source, rich is not the type to go through the trouble
20:47	stuartsierra	Huh, it appears the bytecode is doing istore/iload.
20:47	stuarthalloway	reading the bytecode, I would agree with hiredman
20:48	hiredman	having looked over the git diffs I agree with myself as well
20:48	stuarthalloway	nathanmarz: I stand corrected, it is binding a primitive
20:48	duck1123	can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong here? https://gist.github.com/1315062
20:48	nathanmarz	ok
20:48	nathanmarz	cool
20:49	stuarthalloway	although i don't think you can tell that from the interface test
20:49	nathanmarz	yea
20:49	nathanmarz	i see that now
20:49	amalloy	duck1123: wrong syntax for extend
20:49	stuarthalloway	hiredman: do you prefer the new (box by type) or the old (box always to long) behavior?
20:50	hiredman	hard to say, very little experience with 1.3
20:50	amalloy	(extend-type DateTime MongoMappable (to-dbo [d] (str d)))
20:50	nathanmarz	also, boxing as Integer was the behavior in clojure 1.2
20:50	stuarthalloway	hiredman: if you are reading the git diffs you are ahead of most I would think
20:50	stuartsierra	What I'm trying to figure out is WHY the compiler saves an int, and if it was intentional.
20:50	amalloy	looking at your error message, it seems like you have more problems
20:51	hiredman	I am much happy with hashing fix, I didn't realizing what the niggling feeling of unease in the back of my mind was until I saw paul's email
20:51	duck1123	amalloy: same error
20:51	nathanmarz	not sure it was a big problem for people, wasn't a problem for me
20:51	stuarthalloway	hiredman: totally agreed
20:51	amalloy	duck1123: you're :import'ing MongoMappable instead of :use'ing it, too
20:51	duck1123	that's probably it
20:51	duck1123	haven't used protocols much yet
20:52	stuarthalloway	nathanmarz: the hashing fix mostly removed my reason to care about the boxing rules. I still think boxing to long is easier to reason about, but the cases where it ever matters are vanishingly small
20:52	hiredman	stuartsierra: I imagine the compiler checks the return type, sees that it is an int, and creates an int slot for it
20:52	dnolen	stuarthalloway: but even w/ the current change, you're only one step away from boxing to Long.
20:52	stuarthalloway	dnolen: yup
20:52	hiredman	HostExpr is MaybePrimitiveExpr
20:52	nathanmarz	dnolen: you mean if you do an arithmetic operation?
20:52	duck1123	(inc amalloy)
20:52	lazybot	⇒ 17
20:53	redinger	(amalloy)
20:53	stuartsierra	But LetExpr has an explicit check for int, which it casts to double.
20:53	stuartsierra	I mean long.
20:53	dnolen	stuarthalloway: but the current state of HEAD old behavior won't get foisted on you if you're just roundtripping some interop.
20:53	abedra	(inc abedra)
20:53	lazybot	You can't adjust your own karma.
20:53	abedra	ah ha
20:53	abedra	now I see
20:53	abedra	nice
20:53	jodaro	hmm
20:53	stuarthalloway	(/ abedra 0)
20:53	jodaro	how do karras and congomongo compare?
20:54	abedra	lol
20:54	dnolen	nathanmarz: from what I understand yes.
20:54	stuarthalloway	dnolen: which old behavior?
20:54	jodaro	i've played with the latter a little already
20:54	dnolen	stuarthalloway: boxing to Long right away.
20:54	duck1123	I like Karras' entities. That's why I switched
20:55	jodaro	more ORMy?
20:55	stuarthalloway	dnolen: ok, right
20:55	stuarthalloway	you can't spell wormy without ORMy
20:55	stuartsierra	^
20:55	nathanmarz	dnolen: you're creating a new value, no reason it has to match the types of its inputs
20:55	jodaro	heh
20:55	duck1123	jodaro: yes, plus all of the collections come back as records, so I can do dispatch on them
20:55	jodaro	not easily, at least
20:55	hiredman	stuartsierra: in the loop case
20:56	jodaro	duck1123: cool, i'll have a look
20:56	stuartsierra	hiredman: Oh, now I see.
20:56	jodaro	seancorfield: same!
20:56	jodaro	erc
20:57	technomancy	incanter-charts depends upon clojure-json‽
20:57	technomancy	ಠ_ಠ
20:57	stuarthalloway	so binding an interop in in a let keeps the int, but with a loop binding you get a long
20:57	stuartsierra	Interesting.
20:57	stuarthalloway	s/in/int
20:58	hiredman	duck1123: most likely you are pulling in the the interface generated via defprotocol using import instead of pulling the protocol using use
20:58	danlarkin	technomancy: whoever owns that project needs to delete it
20:58	hiredman	oh
20:58	hiredman	late
20:58	technomancy	danlarkin: incanter also pulls in old swanks that screw everything up =(
20:58	duck1123	hiredman: thank's anyway. I'm on to all new problems. :)
20:58	hiredman	that doesn't seem like it could be intentional
20:58	stuartsierra	The int in int isn't in it for long.
20:59	duck1123	even identity kills it
20:59	dnolen	stuarthalloway: ah yeah that must be the fancy loop inference stuff if I recall? only works for long / double.
20:59	technomancy	also all the incanter examples do bare use =\
21:00	hiredman	I wonder why identity is static, but doesn't have an inline
21:00	danlarkin	technomancy: if I add you as a collaborator can you deprecate it for me? :)
21:00	stuarthalloway	technomancy: cark will fix them :-)
21:01	technomancy	danlarkin: just fixing the readme?
21:01	technomancy	wait, you added me to clojure-json once upon a time
21:01	danlarkin	I don't see you there anymore
21:01	technomancy	anyway, sure
21:01	danlarkin	githubs!!!!
21:01	technomancy	people need to know!
21:02	danlarkin	added! rectify my mistake
21:02	stuarthalloway	dnolen: guess so. Anyway, since different boxes work fine as hash keys now the rest of this is really corner-case stuff
21:02	technomancy	tomorrow
21:02	stuarthalloway	I can live with either behavior
21:03	technomancy	danlarkin: though in the case of incanter that is probably not going to help
21:03	technomancy	anyway, /me &
21:03	stuartsierra	stuarthalloway: It's at Compiler.java line 5954 I think.
21:04	stuartsierra	It calls the ASM method Type.getOpcode.
21:04	stuartsierra	(That's in the emitter for `let`)
21:04	stuartsierra	So at that point the Clojure compiler doesn't care what the type of a `let`-bound thing is: ASM handles it.
21:05	stuarthalloway	g'night all
21:06	stuartsierra	later dudes
21:07	cemerick	Did I miss a relevance flashmob? :-P
21:07	stuarthalloway	cemerick: mostly
21:07	ibdknox_	cemerick: it was scary. hiding was the only real option.
21:08	danlarkin	tldr: ronaldo sierra
21:10	cemerick	OK, now who's going to clean up all these broken tequila bottles.
21:10	cemerick	Those relevance animals…
21:22	cemerick	The conj unconference is shaping up pretty nicely!
21:23	hugod	If I'd arrived half an hour earlier, I might have found out why my locals clearing posts were being ignored, ah well
21:23	danlarkin	the disj
21:25	zerokarmaleft	no shortage of eateries within walking distance of the sheraton, that's good
21:29	hiredman	hugod: you just seem to be the only one interested
21:30	hugod	hiredman: looks that way…
21:30	hiredman	we had cdt setup at work I think, I never used it though
21:32	hugod	seeing all variables when you hit an unexpected exception or breakpoint is quite nice, imho
21:36	hiredman	it sounds neat, but the setup for it seems so brittle I'd have to stop whenever I hit an exception, figure out why it isn't working, fix it, and then get the exception to rethrow
21:36	hiredman	when I could just add a println or logging
21:39	hiredman	and logging is useful in production
21:40	hugod	all useful parts of the toolkit
21:50	ibdknox_	The Conj unconference?
21:52	amalloy	ibdknox_: if you didn't get an invitation it means you're not one of the cool kids
21:53	ibdknox_	damn
21:53	ibdknox_	but I've been working so hard to become one of those
21:53	ibdknox_	amalloy: picking all these trendy names and such
21:53	amalloy	ibdknox_: if you stop having out with ORMs maybe you can sit with us at lunch
21:53	amalloy	*hanging
21:54	ibdknox_	lol
21:54	ibdknox_	it's not really an ORM ;)
22:05	jcromartie	what's the difference between "fork/join" and (reduce (pmap ...))
22:07	napping	which fork/join?
22:07	redinger	cemerick: I sure hope someone can find space for all that Unconj stuff
22:08	cemerick	redinger: We'll make it work :-)
22:08	redinger	Guess my house is always an option...
22:09	cemerick	ibdknox_, amalloy: totally public, linked on the list :-) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Alim_jfrt24MdDFqZVZsNW0tamtQR2pPTHJZTkN6Y0E
22:09	cemerick	redinger: heh, that'll work! :-P
22:09	jcromartie	napping: I don't know :)
22:09	amalloy	cemerick: can someone tell me what BoF means? i've suddenly seen this word like a hundred times in the past couple days while people talk about this unconference
22:10	cemerick	I'm sure we can find plenty of room in the bar, in common areas, in neighboring restaurants & bars, the courtyard, someone with a suite at the hotel…
22:10	cemerick	amalloy: Birds of a Feather
22:10	cemerick	used frequently in conferences
22:11	ibdknox_	amalloy: I was wondering the same thing
22:11	napping	amalloy: pick the most amusing from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BoF
22:12	ibdknox_	hm, should I do one about the web? There aren't really any web talks at the conference
22:15	napping	jcromartie: In general fork/join usually follows more of a tree structure
22:16	napping	that reduce looks serial to me
22:18	jcromartie	hm
22:22	dnolen	I like me some CoffeeScript, but boy am I glad that Clojure (and thus ClojureScript) has no support for mutable locals
22:23	simard	brehaut: what side is that ?
22:23	brehaut	the bottom side
22:23	simard	lol
22:23	brehaut	new zealand
22:24	simard	probably not the worst place around
22:24	napping	mutable locals?
22:24	dnolen	napping: locals can be mutated by functions that close over them.
22:24	napping	I've been thinking that might be fine if you don't let them escape
22:25	brehaut	simard: in general it is good, but it limits access to the conjs frinstance
22:25	napping	yeah, escape like that
22:25	brandel	brehaut: are using clojure at work? (I'm in NZ too)
22:25	brehaut	brandel: nope, not yet anyway
22:25	dnolen	napping: well JS allows that, and CoffeeScript is conservative about changing JS semantics.
22:26	brehaut	brandel: its all python at work for me; i build websites with django
22:26	dnolen	napping: I thought CoffeeScript could adopt ClojureScript's solution for closing over loop locals. but it does work because JS locals are mutable. Clojure(Script)s aren't.
22:26	simard	any of you run their own business ?
22:26	dnolen	does/doesn't
22:26	brehaut	simard: yes
22:26	brandel	I'm in Dunedin and sadly almost all the work down here is .Net
22:26	brehaut	brandel: most of the work nationwide is .net i think
22:27	brehaut	brandel: C#4 and F#2+ are pretty solid though
22:27	brandel	languages are fine, it's asp.net webforms that I can't cope with
22:27	simard	C#4 ? hum, I should admit I have not touched C# for 3 years.
22:28	brehaut	brandel: aspweb forms is death by rusty spoon
22:28	simard	it is a lisp yet ?
22:28	simard	is it*
22:28	brandel	agreed
22:28	brehaut	simard: its gaining more haskell than lisp
22:28	brandel	linq is kind of haskellish
22:28	brehaut	its a lot haskellish ;)
22:28	napping	hardly a surprise there
22:31	napping	jcromartie: something like (defmacro papply [f & args] `(apply ~f (map deref ~(vec (for [a args] `(future ~a))))))
22:32	clojurebot	map is LAZY
22:32	ibdknox_	yeah, while I was at MS, there was a focus on bringing in a lot of functional idioms
22:32	brehaut	no need to yell about it clojurebot
22:32	ibdknox_	F# actually drove a lot of innovation in C# itself
22:32	brandel	clojurebot is cranky
22:32	napping	more what Erik Meijer was working on at MSR before going over to the C# side
22:32	brehaut	ibdknox_: i like to imagine a corridor with the haskell guys at one end, F# next door, then C#
22:33	ibdknox_	lol
22:33	brehaut	smart things flow down
22:33	napping	wait, guess he worked on Haskell before joining MSR
22:33	ibdknox_	we were all in one hall for the most part ;)
22:33	brehaut	ibdknox_: this makes my day
22:33	zerokarmaleft	cemerick: that document is view only now
22:34	zerokarmaleft	i guess i'd be worried too if 25+ people were trying to edit it at once
22:34	dnolen	napping: it was fun to hear him talk at StrangeLoop, seems like he's a fan of nasty imperative languages these days :)
22:35	ibdknox_	dnolen: you can still do awesome things with those, you know ;)
22:35	dnolen	ibdknox_: that really was his point.
22:36	aperiodic	does recur force evaluation?
22:36	brehaut	hes done a pretty good joke burying nice functional tools into a nasty imperative language
22:36	brehaut	s/joke/job/
22:36	brehaut	freudian slip?
22:36	ibdknox_	it's really good to see imperative languages stealing some of the good stuff
22:36	napping	well, how much of the good stuff didn't lisp have?
22:36	ibdknox_	C#'s immutable structures kind of suck though.
22:37	brehaut	yeah
22:37	ibdknox_	which lisp?
22:37	napping	Common Lisp, for one
22:37	napping	not exactly function
22:38	ibdknox_	Common Lisp carries the weight of evolving over such a long period of time in the hands of many different people
22:38	ibdknox_	it's not "designed" in the sense that Clojure is
22:39	ibdknox_	and that lack of cohesion means that instead of an intelligent mixture of paradigms it feels haphazard
22:41	dnolen	ibdknox_: sad that there's not a Racket for Common Lisp to keep things moving forward. I played around with SBCL + quicklisp today, damn I wish that was around when I tried it out in 2008.
22:43	dnolen	still think CL package stuff is horrifying. Even Art of the Metaobject Protocol makes fun of it, and that was written in 1991.
22:44	dnolen	makes Clojure namespaces look positively dreamy.
22:44	ibdknox_	dnolen: yeah... I think a lot of their situation is a product of their community
22:45	ibdknox_	dnolen: the CL culture doesn't lend itself to moving very far
22:48	aperiodic	i guess the real question is: how is clojure lazy? is there an equivalent of haskell's thunk?
22:49	amalloy	aperiodic: thunks are not a haskell invention
22:49	amalloy	a thunk is just "a function of no arguments"
22:50	napping	well, that and storing away the result so work is not duplicated
22:50	amalloy	napping: that's a cached thunk
22:50	aperiodic	in other words, a function with no free variables?
22:50	napping	Most of the laziness seems to be in Seq instances
22:50	amalloy	uhhh. i don't think that's the same
22:51	amalloy	(fn [x] x) has no free variables
22:51	amalloy	(fn [y] (+ x y)) has a free variable x
22:51	aperiodic	ah, i see the distinction
22:51	amalloy	the thing that haskell, as a lazy language, does differently is (i think) implicitly wrap all evaluation in a cached thunk
22:52	amalloy	clojure has cached thunks: ##(doc delay)
22:52	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([& body]); Takes a body of expressions and yields a Delay object that will invoke the body only the first time it is forced (with force or deref/@), and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent force calls. See also - realized?"
22:52	amalloy	and lazy sequences are similar, except they're sequence-specific
22:53	brehaut	amalloy: if we are being pedantic haskell doesnt wrap all evaluation in cached thunks or thunks; that decision is based on the results of the strictness analyzer
22:53	aperiodic	it's a sequence where the tail is wrapped in a delay?
22:53	amalloy	aperiodic: the head and the tail
22:55	aperiodic	amalloy: then why doesn't evaluating the head cause the rest of the sequence to be evaluated?
22:55	dnolen	aperiodic: why should it?
22:55	amalloy	because the tail is another lazy sequence, which as always is wrapped in a delay
22:56	dnolen	Clojure doesn't have TCO (for interop reasons) so it supports good functional tail recursive style via lazy sequences, recur, and trampolines.
22:57	aperiodic	so a function that recursively constructs a lazy seq will be evaluated lazily as a result of the laziness of the sequence?
22:58	dnolen	aperiodic: yes
22:58	aperiodic	but it still consumes stack, right?
22:58	seancorfield	question about Programming Clojure...
22:58	aperiodic	dnolen: that is, linear amounts of stack
22:58	seancorfield	the git repo project.clj refers to contrib-1.3.0-SNAPSHOT
22:58	seancorfield	url https://github.com/stuarthalloway/programming-clojure/blob/master/project.clj
22:59	dnolen	aperiodic: a good lazy sequence should not eat up the stack, regardless of it's size.
23:00	dnolen	,(take 10 (range 1e20)
23:00	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
23:00	dnolen	,(take 10 (range 1e20))
23:00	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
23:02	seancorfield	i tried to add the sonatype repo to lein... but it still complains it can't resolve the artifact
23:04	simard	I want to produce a list of function calls to be evaluated later by another function, what is the best strategy to do that ? a list of anonymous functions of the kind: (fn [] (call-me-later x y z)) where x y z get bound by the function "packager" ?
23:05	aperiodic	dnolen: yeah, i get that, since at any point it's only necessary to evaluate a single member while keeping the tail wrapped up in the delay, so the memory requirements for evaluating the seq are constant
23:06	seancorfield	nm, figured it out... i had a typo in my repo URL :(
23:06	aperiodic	dnolen: the part i'm fuzzy about is when using a recursive fn to construct the seq
23:07	dnolen	aperiodic: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L3821
23:09	aperiodic	dnolen: awesome, that's really helpful. thanks!
23:09	dnolen	aperiodic: no problem.
23:47	brehaut	its always encouraging to hear that the (plain text with interpolations) email template you are editing is consumed at the other end by a flaky excel macro :S
23:49	simard	uhm, this is probably obvious, but, is there a function that... calls a function ?
23:49	simard	(a function of no argument)
23:49	simard	(xyz (fn [] (str "Hello " "World")))
23:49	alandipert	#(%)
23:50	alandipert	aka (fn [x] (x))
23:50	simard	hum makes sense
23:50	simard	thanks
23:50	technomancy	amalloy had a neat trick for doing that in an existing function
23:50	amalloy	technomancy: nah, only if you have an arg
23:50	technomancy	something less perlish
23:50	technomancy	oh, that's right
23:50	technomancy	deliver
23:51	technomancy	(memfn invoke) is a poor substitute =)
23:53	aperiodic	you could also abuse apply
23:53	aperiodic	but then you have to type an empty list literal
23:55	miclorb_	I thought I understood (apply) - clearly not
23:55	miclorb_	apply is normally (apply <function> <sequence>) right?
23:55	aperiodic	correct
23:55	miclorb_	so if I see something like (apply func arg1 arg2 arg3) - how does that work?
23:55	miclorb_	arg3 is a list
23:56	amalloy	miclorb_: it's the same as (apply func (cons arg1 (cons arg2 arg3)))
23:56	aperiodic	i think it conjs the args
23:57	aperiodic	yeah, what amalloy said
23:57	amalloy	or, more concisely, (list* arg1 arg2 arg3)
23:57	miclorb_	in this case func takes 2 args - not sure if that confuses things more
23:57	brehaut	amalloy: points for list* :)
23:57	miclorb_	ok
23:57	seancorfield_	,(doc list*)
23:57	clojurebot	"([args] [a args] [a b args] [a b c args] [a b c d & ...]); Creates a new list containing the items prepended to the rest, the last of which will be treated as a sequence."
23:58	seancorfield_	and to think stu complained about the "half earmuff" vars in clojure.java.jdbc :)
23:59	brehaut	lol
23:59	technomancy	yeah I don't know if he was confused or what
23:59	amalloy	haha i must have missed this one