#clojure – 2011-10-24

2011-10-24

00:22	scottj	why does str have to be namespaced in https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/compare/bfc2f32c53...3c83c62d97 but when-not doesn't?
01:00	amalloy	scottj: i don't understand the subtleties of cljs macros, but it looks like it's because when-not is in clj and str is in cljs
01:01	amalloy	ie, it can put clojure.core/when-not in there, because clojure will be expanding it itself. but it can't put its "own" reference to str in, because it's supposed to be executed in a cljs context
02:18	daaku	is there a syntax for destructuring to bind the "rest" args at head instead of the tail?
02:39	scottj	amalloy_: that made sense for the when outside the syntax quote but the when-not inside the syntax quote confused me. is it something about the str being inside the throw that makes it different?
03:26	Blkt	good morning everyone
03:29	Raynes	jodaro: Ping.
03:32	michaelr525	Blkt: morning!
03:33	Blkt	:D
04:09	tsdh	Is there a way to silence a given reflection warning? I want warn-on-reflection to be true, but there are some java calls in my code that cannot be silenced with type hints and are not performance critical anyhow.
04:14	patchwork	Suddenly when I try to load my project I get a mysterious "Unable to resolve symbol print-doc in this context". java.lang.RuntimeException?
04:14	patchwork	I'm sure I'm not calling print-doc anywhere
04:14	patchwork	where do I begin to debug this?
04:15	hiredman	you have a (doc ...) somewhere
04:15	patchwork	The stacktrace just shows a deep nesting of compiler calls
04:15	patchwork	hiredman: not in my project?
04:16	patchwork	yeah, just grepped the whole thing
04:16	patchwork	I don't have a single occurrence of the string "doc"
04:16	patchwork	anywhere
04:16	patchwork	So it is in one of my dependencies then?
04:20	patchwork	could something like this cause it?
04:20	patchwork	(ns #^{:author "Roman Scherer" :doc "Rails-like inflections for Clojure."}
04:20	patchwork	This is the only doc I see in the library
04:43	patchwork	Yeah it is definitely when I try to require this library:
04:43	patchwork	[geocoder-clj "0.0.3-SNAPSHOT"]
04:45	Raynes	patchwork: In Clojure 1.3, print-doc was moved to clojure.repl and made private. Sounds like geocoder hasn't been updated.
04:46	Raynes	Huh. I guess it was.
04:46	patchwork	So, what do I do? Tell the owner I get a print-doc error? I am looking through his code and I don't see any reference to doc of any kind. Strange.
04:46	Raynes	patchwork: Could you gist the whole stacktrace?
04:47	Raynes	That'll be really helpful.
04:47	patchwork	I would just fix it myself
04:47	patchwork	Raynes: sure
04:48	patchwork	Here you go: https://gist.github.com/1308615
04:49	patchwork	this is kind of a related question, but what is the best way to debug these things? Sometimes I get these stacktraces which are entirely from the compiler, and it tells me it finds an error, but doesn't tell me in what file!
04:49	patchwork	Is there an accepted way to scry into these?
04:50	Raynes	patchwork: If you look through it, you'll see a line that starts with "geocoder" and shows the line that this occurs.
04:50	Raynes	It appears to happen when it loads infections. Infections might be the culprit.
04:50	Raynes	I'm checking.
04:50	clgv	patchwork: printing only the lines of the stacktrace with clj-files in gives a good overview.
04:50	patchwork	So, this line?
04:51	patchwork	64: inflections.core$eval7491$loading__4505__auto____7492.invoke(core.clj:1)
04:51	patchwork	65: inflections.core$eval7491.invoke(core.clj:1)
04:51	Raynes	Yes.
04:51	patchwork	So that is in line 1 of core.clj
04:51	patchwork	alright
04:51	Raynes	Yes, the 'ns' declaration.
04:51	patchwork	which means probably when it is requiring yet another library
04:52	Raynes	inflections* haha, infections.
04:52	patchwork	I know, I just let it go : )
04:52	patchwork	It could be considered an infection I guess
04:52	patchwork	inflections, taking over our systems
04:53	Raynes	Apparently.
04:53	Raynes	Looks like it's on 1.3 as well.
04:53	patchwork	pluralizing singular things
04:53	patchwork	Yeah, that is what I thought
04:53	patchwork	the code seems fine
04:53	patchwork	who is calling print-doc here?
04:54	patchwork	could it be swank somehow?
04:54	patchwork	I am calling through swank
04:54	Raynes	I don't know. Does this happen outide of slime?
04:54	patchwork	I'll try just the repl
04:54	Raynes	Yeah, I noticed.
04:54	Raynes	Heh, you're a quarter inch ahead of everything I say.
04:54	patchwork	happens in the repl too
04:55	Raynes	Is the trace the same?
04:55	patchwork	Yep
04:55	patchwork	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: print-doc in this context, compiling:(clojure/contrib/ns_utils.clj:67)
04:55	Raynes	Aha!
04:55	Raynes	Something is using clojure-contrib.
04:55	patchwork	looks like it is calling contrib?
04:55	patchwork	oh man
04:55	Raynes	Find that and you've found the problem.
04:56	patchwork	Well, how do I find that?
04:58	Raynes	I'm not sure. Doesn't look like any of these projects use contrib.
04:58	Raynes	patchwork: You sure you don't have contrib being pulled in? Even by one of your deps? The way to check would be to look in lib/ for clojure-contrib.
04:59	Raynes	But the ns that is requiring it in the first place should be in the stacktrace.
04:59	Raynes	Good luck.
05:00	patchwork	Yep, thanks Raynes
05:01	patchwork	Aha, clojure.contrib is in there
05:01	patchwork	sneaky bastard
05:28	fbru02	Hi all , how can i tie in -> with a fn like re-seq?
05:30	Raynes	fbru02: You'd like to thread the seq in, but the argument order doesn't match up?
05:30	Raynes	If possible, use ->>. It threads it as the last argument in each form.
05:30	Raynes	If that isn't possible, you should probably consider not using either of these forms at all, or using them in a different way.
05:31	fbru02	Raynes: nice !!! thanks
05:31	Raynes	s/seq/string/
05:56	AWizzArd2	How do I get the docstring of a NS?
05:59	AWizzArd2	Ah okay: (clojure.repl/find-doc "my.ns")
06:00	raek	AWizzArd2: there's also (print-namespace-doc 'my.ns)
06:01	AWizzArd2	Ah nice, didn't know that one.
06:01	AWizzArd2	In what NS do I find this fn?
06:01	raek	in clojure 1.2 it's in clojure.core
06:01	Raynes	AWizzArd2: Just plain clojure.repl/doc is supposed to work for namespaces.
06:05	AWizzArd2	Raynes: I tried doc, but that didn't work for me.
06:05	AWizzArd2	,(clojure.repl/doc clojure.repl)
06:05	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.repl>
06:05	AWizzArd2	$(clojure.repl/doc clojure.repl)
06:06	Raynes	&(clojure.repl/doc clojure.repl)
06:06	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.repl
06:06	Raynes	Duh. I forgot -- replaced the doc macro with my own.
06:06	Raynes	AWizzArd2: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.repl/doc Look at the source.
06:06	AWizzArd2	Anyway, try that in your local repl, it will not work there too.
06:07	Raynes	It works fine.
06:07	Raynes	Just tried it.
06:08	AWizzArd2	Raynes: I get the same error message that the clojurebot gave.
06:08	AWizzArd2	For {:major 1, :minor 3, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}.
06:08	raek	,(require 'clojure.repl)
06:08	clojurebot	nil
06:08	AWizzArd2	find-doc works though
06:08	raek	,(clojure.repl/doc clojure.repl)
06:08	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.repl>
06:09	AWizzArd2	raek: in 1.3 this is not in clojure.core anymore.
06:09	AWizzArd2	This print-namespace-doc I mean.
06:09	AWizzArd2	,(clojure.repl/doc clojure.core)
06:09	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.core>
06:09	AWizzArd2	,(clojure.repl/find-doc clojure.core)
06:09	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.core, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
06:10	AWizzArd2	,(clojure.repl/find-doc "clojure.core")
06:10	clojurebot	-------------------------
06:10	clojurebot	clojure.core/extend-protocol
06:10	clojurebot	([p & specs])
06:10	clojurebot	Macro
06:10	clojurebot	Useful when you want to provide several implementations of the same
06:10	clojurebot	protocol all at once. Takes a single protocol and the implementation
06:10	clojurebot	of that protocol for one or more types. Expands into calls to
06:10	clojurebot	extend-type:
06:10	clojurebot	(extend-protocol Protocol
06:10	clojurebot	AType
06:10	clojurebot	(foo [x] ...)
06:10	clojurebot	(bar [x y] ...)
06:10	clojurebot	BType
06:10	clojurebot	(foo [x]...
06:10	Raynes	And this is why you don't let bots send a message for each line of output.
06:11	AWizzArd2	;-)
06:11	AWizzArd2	At least it was so nice to stop, and didn't print out all docstrings g
06:11	Raynes	Also, I had a clojure 1.2.1 repl open, so disregard what I said.
06:11	AWizzArd2	In 1.2.x I also used plain doc.
07:02	AWizzArd2	$seen rhickey
07:02	lazybot	rhickey was last seen quitting 1 week and 2 days ago.
09:20	fasta	Suppose I have N modules and I change a definition in one of them, how long do I have to wait before I can use that definition?
09:20	etnt`	anyone knows of any Minecraft plugins that has been written in Clojure?
09:21	fasta	E.g. vanilla Scheme used 'load' for its modules, which also doesn't scale to large system development.
09:22	fasta	In Smalltalk, a change is applied in the order of microseconds if not less.
09:23	fasta	Does Clojure does something 'smart' or is it working in some naive way?
09:23	fasta	do*
09:35	morphling	fasta: definition of what?
09:35	fasta	morphling: of some new function.
09:37	morphling	fasta: you have to recompile and load it (like C-c C-c in slime) and it gets used everywhere immediately. I'm pretty sure clojure does not inline functions per default
09:37	fasta	morphling: but how much is recompiled?
09:38	morphling	fasta: whatever you tell it to compile
09:39	fasta	morphling: but don't you get the problem then that you have to keep track of what it already has compiled and what not?
09:39	fasta	morphling: CL has that problem, which is why the Racket people came up with a different solution./
09:40	morphling	fasta: I don't get it. If you recompile the whole namespace it recompiles the whole namespace, but you don't have to. is that what you're asking?
09:41	morphling	fasta: if you change a macro btw you have to recompile all its users, there is no magic going on there that recompiles them for you
09:42	michaelr525	i think what he is asking is whether the loading of all the stuff that's been recompiled is performed atomically?
09:43	michaelr525	or that's what i am asking :)
09:44	mrsipan	have anyone tried to use vimclojure with clojurescript repl?
09:45	mrsipan	has*
09:46	fasta	morphling: how long does compiling a namespace generally take? Milliseconds?
09:46	kzar	Any ideas how I can get requests for "/" to render "/index.html" using Noir, static redirection works fine if I type the file name in. I tried to do (defpage "/" [] (render [:get "/index.html"])) but no joy
09:46	duck1123	michaelr525: require has a :reload and :reload-all flag that you can use to reload the required namespaces. Is that what you're asking?
09:46	fasta	I just want to know how fast it is.
09:46	fasta	E.g. C++ compilation is extremely slow because of linking too.
09:46	duck1123	fasta: that's highly dependant on what you're loading
09:47	morphling	michaelr525: I don't know, but i would guess it's not
09:48	fasta	duck1123: in a good implementation it is O(number of changes).
09:48	fasta	Or perhaps O(number of changes * lg n)
09:49	michaelr525	well, i imagined loading new code into a running system but maybe it's beyond the subject of this discussion :)
09:49	kzar	(defpage "/" [] (redirect "/index.html")) works but it's makes the URL ugly
09:55	fasta	michaelr525: I would be interested in the semantics of that also.
09:57	duck1123	fasta: Assuming that all of your required namespaces are loaded, reloading the namespace should be as fast as evaling every form in that file
09:57	duck1123	which should be pretty fast
09:57	morphling	fasta: clojure does not focus on compilation speed, there is ahead of time compilation, but it is mostly used for interop purposes and strongly discouraged. it also does not track changes as far as i know. interactive development is fast because you don't need to recompile every use site of a funtion, just eval the new (defn ...) in the running image and you're good to go
09:58	cark	i don't see why it would be strongly discouraged
09:58	cark	you may do interactive developement then do AOT compiling to get an end-product
10:00	morphling	cark: because it does not work accross clojure versions. ok let me rephrase: it is strongly descouraged for almost everything besides end-user deployment
10:01	cark	so "everything" means development i guess ?
10:01	cark	sorry i'm nitpicking
10:02	morphling	cark: especially libraries you want others to use, or reuse yourself
10:02	cark	but i wouldn't want people to get the wrong impression about clojure "not being fit for compilation"
10:02	cark	well, when i get a clojar, it's compiled
10:02	duck1123	The only time you should really need to AOT compile is when you need to genclass for use within a java app
10:03	morphling	cark: it should not be
10:03	morphling	cark: you can load source code from jar files
10:04	cark	my workflow is this : play in slime doing interactive development, then once in a while check that everything works well with AOT compilation, then i have this build process for distribution to the end-user, he gets the AOT compiled jar, without source
10:06	cark	if you go mostly without AOT, you may have some bad surprises
10:06	duck1123	aot is good for checking everything. I keep a commented out aot line in my project
10:06	cark	i remember trying to use one of those nice matching libraries, it was doing fine in the repl, and breaking when AOT compiled
10:07	cark	though i believe the author was working on fixing that =)
10:09	morphling	cark: what can you do that breaks aot compilation?
10:09	cark	it was something with protocols he said
10:11	cark	extend-protocol or something like it
10:11	morphling	ah, I don't think I've used AOT since protocols were added
10:11	cark	or extend itself, can't remember
11:34	choffstein	is there any way to get .clj files out of a .jar made with lein uberjar?
11:37	choffstein	Sorry if I double ask this question -- sometimes I can't tell if my irc client sent the message. Anyone know if there is a way to get the .clj files out of .jars made with `lein uberjar`? I only want the compiled source in the .jar if possible.
11:42	terom	choffstein: .jar files are basically just compressed files (zip I guess) which you can uncompress with your favourite tool, so you can retrieve compiled files (classes) from it.
11:42	choffstein	terom: I know. I more meant -- how do I make sure my .clj files are NOT included in the .jar
11:48	terom	choffstein: ah, ok. Well, I don't have so much experience with that. Does it include both compiled classes and source .clj files currently?
11:48	choffstein	terom: yes, it does
11:48	jkkramer	choffstein: there's an :omit-source option for project.clj
11:49	choffstein	beautiful.
11:49	jkkramer	see https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/1.x/sample.project.clj
11:49	choffstein	thanks
11:50	terom	Ah, so easy.
11:57	sirn	is there any macro similar to (and) but evaluate all exprs even if any expr returns false?e
11:57	cemerick	technomancy: so what is the workaround for that $PATH issue you mentioned a few days ago?
11:58	cemerick	I ended up always starting emacs from the command line (didn't find the real fix after a little googling).
12:30	iwillig	is it crazy to have a protocol extend another protocol... is that a bad design choice ?
12:33	technomancy	cemerick: the real fix involves editing a plist.xml file. =(
12:34	cemerick	bummer
12:35	technomancy	don't you have this issue with other programs on OS X though?
12:35	cemerick	Hrm.
12:35	cemerick	I don't think so.
12:36	technomancy	or I guess with eclipse you use a plugin rather than searching the $PATH?
12:36	cemerick	Eclipse always figures out things like e.g. where the git binary is, and TM bundles find awk without a problem.
12:36	cemerick	The plugin can use the java git impl or shell out to the local git.
12:36	technomancy	interesting. I wonder how they do it.
12:37	cemerick	I've generally done the latter, just because the java git impl lags a bit.
12:37	cemerick	I'm guessing they keep a set of common paths somewhere, and go looking.
12:37	cemerick	so is aquamacs really that evil?
12:37	technomancy	... well ...
12:38	cemerick	I can't imagine how long it would take me to get keybindings set up well enough that I wouldn't go nuts.
12:38	technomancy	the main problem is that it breaks compatibility in unpredictable ways and that it's not portable
12:38	technomancy	so there's really no way for maintainers to test against its quirks without buying a mac
12:40	cemerick	Huh. That's not really intuitive. Isn't it just a bunch of chrome and .emacs defaults?
12:40	technomancy	apparently there's more to it
12:40	technomancy	I've never tried it.
12:40	cemerick	That's what I used the last time I gave emacs an honest try.
12:40	technomancy	but there's only so much you can do to trick people into thinking it's mac-native
12:41	technomancy	it's always going to be deep in uncanny-valley territory
12:41	cemerick	I installed emacs 24 straight this time just so I could safely use the swank-clojure tutorial, etc., but it was…uncomfortable. :-)
12:41	technomancy	oh, also it bundles its own version of slime that is newer than what Clojure needs, but older than what the latest CL stuff needs.
12:42	technomancy	cemerick: well, the thing about Clojure users is they're more likely to acknowledge that elegance and familiarity are orthogonal. =)
12:43	cemerick	AI think that applies well to code and abstractions and such. I remain firmly unconvinced about that w.r.t. user interfaces.
12:43	cemerick	Assembly is elegant too.
12:43	technomancy	well, familiarity is always relative
12:43	cemerick	indeed
12:43	technomancy	I always feel like I'm working with mittens on when you place me in front of a mac
12:44	cemerick	heh
12:45	cemerick	You should have seen me trying to figure out how to tab around buffers.
12:46	kzar	I've started to get used to working on a Mac but I've still found no way to disable all the Mac hotkeys when working in a terminal - drives me crazy when the window closes instead of the region yanked
12:47	cemerick	hrm, no familiarity is not always relative. That was the driving thesis behind GUIs: graphical metaphors provide interaction affordances that text commands cannot match.
12:47	hiredman	ah, well don't use command as meta?
12:47	hiredman	(works for me)
12:48	hiredman	cemerick: but the thing is, as programmers we work with lots and lots of text
12:48	kzar	hiredman: I just wish there was a "disable every bloody hotkey when a terminal window is active" option, would be so nice
12:48	technomancy	cemerick: I think that just means it's less relative.
12:49	technomancy	within the subset of the population that's likely to use this program, the chances are higher that it resonates with some experience they can relate to.
12:49	technomancy	maybe it's pedantic, but I don't think there's much in UI that can be truly universally intuitive.
12:50	technomancy	s/maybe//?
12:50	cemerick	yeah, it's population-dependent
12:51	cemerick	but, graphical buttons and tabs and sliders and knobs are hard to beat if your population is, say, anyone that's used a computer in the past 30 years
12:52	cemerick	Maybe purely textual UIs can be made to approach the same level of accessibility, but I've never seen one that's really tried.
12:52	technomancy	the other thing is that often discoverability and efficiency are in conflict
12:53	technomancy	so I can see something I've never used and know exactly how it works and still be frustrated because it's cumbersome compared to what I'm used to
12:53	technomancy	because efficiency actually can be objective.
12:53	technomancy	(for a given task)
12:54	cemerick	can't there be keybindings and corresponding discoverable UI elements available simultaneously?
12:55	hiredman	do you not have ido-mode and smex?
12:55	cemerick	hiredman: I have no idea what those are; but, as someone that recently followed the getting-started tutorial, no.
12:56	technomancy	cemerick: not if efficiency factors in maximizing the amount of available screen space. =) but you can certainly make trade-offs that adjust as the user levels up.
12:56	cemerick	or, I should say, I don't think I have them :-P
12:58	technomancy	ido is built-in; you can do M-x ido-mode to enable it.
12:58	technomancy	it probably should be turned on by default; emacs is not very pleasant without it.
12:58	cemerick	gawd, shouldn't that be an indication that something is wrong?
12:59	hiredman	smex makes things pretty discoverable, M-x and then type something and it will list possible completions as it goes
12:59	hiredman	cemerick: has anyone ever told you to use bare emacs?
12:59	cemerick	hiredman: oh, yeah, that happens. Definitely not what I would consider "discoverable".
13:00	technomancy	cemerick: definitely stuff is wrong with the development process. it's all political.
13:00	hiredman	cemerick: what would you consider discoverable?
13:00	cemerick	hiredman: I just have the emacs starter kit + swank-clojure. (per http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started+with+Emacs)
13:00	technomancy	the emacs-devel list makes our "what happened to numerics in 1.3!?!?" threads look like high tea. =)
13:00	hiredman	eclipse is not
13:01	technomancy	so... is there any way to make a request against a self-signed https server from Clojure?
13:01	hiredman	I installed eclipse while trying to write an andriod widget, it could be called "discoverable" if you think "discoverable" means "point and guess"
13:01	hiredman	technomancy: yes
13:02	technomancy	does it involve reifying your own trustmanager? =(
13:02	TimMc	curl
13:02	technomancy	haha
13:02	hiredman	yes
13:02	hiredman	https://gist.github.com/1309519
13:02	cemerick	technomancy: via system properties, IIRC
13:03	technomancy	hiredman: oh that's not so bad; thanks.
13:03	technomancy	cemerick: I think that requires you know the cert up-front, which I'd rather avoid
13:03	TimMc	hiredman: mangers and bash, eh?
13:04	technomancy	would be nice to have that in clj-http, but I can fall back to clojure-http-client for this.
13:04	pjstadig	technomancy: you want to hear about 1.3 numerics, i'll tell you about 1.3 numerics...
13:04	cemerick	hiredman: except that you can "point and guess" two or three times, and end up finding the behaviour you want. "Discoverable" doesn't mean "the tool reads your mind", but it does include being able to easily find actions within a reasonable category, actions related to other atctions, etc.
13:04	hiredman	technomancy: should work for clj-http I think
13:04	technomancy	pjstadig: but what do you think about setting cua-mode by default for new users; that's what I want to know.
13:05	pjstadig	hehe
13:05	technomancy	hiredman: oh? cool.
13:05	hiredman	cemerick: all the emacs slime commands start with 'slime-'
13:05	dakrone	technomancy: patches welcome :)
13:05	hiredman	technomancy: I think so
13:05	technomancy	dakrone: fer sure
13:06	cemerick	hiredman: 'slime-' being the obvious prefix for the lisp or clojure interaction facility ;-)
13:06	hiredman	cemerick: it is the obvious prefix for slime
13:06	hiredman	given there are other possible modes of interaction
13:07	cemerick	hiredman: and the immovable encounters the unstoppable :-)
13:33	cch1	Anybody familiar with clj-logging-config? I'm getting "Unable to resolve symbol: Log in this context" when requiring or using version 1.7.0
13:38	amalloy	iwillig: i'm not sure whether it's crazy; it's certainly something i've wanted to do. but i don't believe it's possible
13:38	amalloy	sirn: you don't need a macro for that, it's just a function: ##(every? identity [true false (prn 1)])
13:38	lazybot	⇒ 1 false
13:42	sirn	amalloy: thanks, that's exactly what I'm looking for
14:11	kylpo	Anyone have a REST clojure server tutorial they can link me?
14:12	drewr	kylpo: I'm pretty sure any REST tutorial would apply to clojure without too much impedance mismatch
14:16	kylpo	Sure. I am just fishing for the perfect match to the project I want to undertake. :)
14:22	fdaoud	kylpo: do you mean like Compojure?
14:23	kylpo	fdaoud: Yeah, I'm checking out Compojure right now, actually.
14:23	drewr	kylpo: if you're new to the clojure ecosystem and you're just looking for REST-capable libraries, check out compojure like fdaoud mentioned or just ring itself (which compojure wraps)
14:23	drewr	or any of the myriad java options
14:24	kylpo	drewr: Cool, thanks.
14:29	kylpo	Just want to throw this out for clojure newbies like me. This intro to Clojure syntax is really well done: http://www.moxleystratton.com/article/clojure/for-non-lisp-programmers
14:32	fdaoud	kylpo: here is a REST/Ring tutorial: http://mmcgrana.github.com/2010/08/clojure-rest-api.html
14:33	fdaoud	as drewr mentioned, it's worth understanding some Ring because Compojure builds on it
14:33	drewr	he'll have to anyway because compojure doesn't try to hide ring at all
14:34	drewr	it's convenience functions, not an abstraction
14:37	kylpo	Thanks fdaoud, that looks promising.
14:43	jcromartie	how do you decide where to put dosync calls?
14:44	jcromartie	when designing an API
14:46	fdaoud	true drewr
14:53	drewr	jcromartie: as close as possible to the ref
14:53	drewr	ref(s)
14:53	drewr	disclaimer though: I've actually hardly used the STM
14:55	amalloy	drewr: the problem, of course, is the "but no closer" implied second half :P
14:56	drewr	I figured I'd stop short and let those with more experience take over the advice :-)
14:56	technomancy	I think it depends on whether refs are an implementation detail or exposed to the user.
14:56	amalloy	i think the preferred ideal is to not have your API have dosyncs at all
14:57	drewr	right. abstract the concept of state away if you can.
14:57	drewr	s/concept of//
14:58	jcromartie	drewr good idea
14:58	amalloy	drewr: my point was more that, if you do have to have state, it's the user's job to set up transactions, not yours. just tell them "hey, i'm a stateful object, you can't use me except in a dosync"
14:58	jcromartie	if the API has to use a ref, you're doing it wrong :P
14:58	TimMc	maybe
14:58	TimMc	Depends on the service.
14:58	jcromartie	yeah
14:59	jcromartie	specifically a friend had written some code in C# that provided a queue that producers could push onto, and consumers could pop off of
14:59	jcromartie	and the pop operation blocke
14:59	jcromartie	blocked
14:59	jcromartie	a
14:59	jcromartie	anyway half the code was concurrency-juggling
14:59	jcromartie	and it was pretty much the minimum necessary
15:00	jcromartie	so I was interested in a comparison in Clojure, but I'm not sure I even have the right functionality.... blocking on pop is weird
15:00	jcromartie	blocking on pop when the queue is empty, that is
15:00	amalloy	jcromartie: blocking on pop is fine
15:02	amalloy	the problem is trying to write this at all. just write an infinite lazy sequence of calls to .pop on the same mutable object that producers .push to
15:03	amalloy	for which you need a blocking .pop primitive, and you'd use something like http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/LinkedBlockingQueue.html
15:04	jcromartie	:P amalloy brings it home
15:04	jcromartie	awesome
15:06	amalloy	&(doc seque) is an example you can check out: it uses LBQ from clojure, and i imagine you could copy most of the code
15:06	lazybot	⇒ "([s] [n-or-q s]); Create a queued eq on another (pre umably lazy) eq . The queued\n eq will produce a concrete eq in the background, and can get up to\n n item ahead of the con umer. n-or-q can be an integer n buffer\n ize, or an in tance of java.util.c... https://gist.github.com/1309838
15:06	headius	why did that line beep forme?
15:07	headius	is there a ^G in there or something?
15:07	amalloy	hahaha. Raynes, did you somehow make doc drop all the 's' chars instead of \s chars?
15:12	amalloy	&(doc seque) ;; headius, does it still do that?
15:12	lazybot	⇒ "([s] [n-or-q s]); Creates a queued seq on another (presumably lazy) seq s. The queued seq will produce a concrete seq in the background, and can get up to n items ahead of the consumer. n-or-q can be an integer n buffer size, or an instance of java.util.concurrent... https://gist.github.com/1309865
15:13	headius	lazybot: yes
15:13	headius	er
15:13	headius	something about that line beeps my client
15:16	amalloy	scottj: missed your message re: when-not till now. you around?
15:18	fdaoud	is this the headius?
15:18	fdaoud	as in Charles-O?
15:19	headius	fdaoud: one and the same
15:19	headius	amalloy: yes, it still beeped
15:19	fdaoud	well it's an honor, sir :)
15:19	hiredman	^- amazing what you can do with markov chains
15:19	headius	fdaoud: hah, I dunno about that, but thanks :)
15:21	fdaoud	headius: I was one of the reviewers for your jruby book with the prags - great job on that
15:22	headius	fdaoud: oh, thank you! yes, I think it turned out really well
15:23	fdaoud	headius: it sure did. the only thing I don't like about your book is that it's thicker than mine even though it has less pages. heh
15:23	amalloy	hm. i dunno what the problem is, then. the source file with that doc doesn't contain ^G, and i don't see one in lazybot's log of his output either
15:23	headius	fdaoud: we only use the most premium paper in the JRuby world
15:23	headius	prag books always seem to use a really heavy weight of paper
15:23	fdaoud	headius: yeh either that or they switch to thinner paper past a certain number of pages
15:24	headius	that could be too...consistent thickness would be a weird goal but perhaps not a bad idea
15:25	headius	or different types of books could mean different weights of paper, like pure reference books might use thinner paper
15:25	headius	like the atom-thin paper they use in giant dictionaries
15:25	fdaoud	from the 15 or so books I have, it seems the threshold is around 350 pages past which they switch to the thinner paper
15:27	headius	ahhh
15:29	fdaoud	headius: did you enjoy your experience writing for the prags?
15:29	headius	I did, though it was really hard to focus on it when there was JRuby work to be done
15:30	headius	without Ian the book never would have happened
15:30	fdaoud	heh, yet he is listed last
15:30	Raynes	amalloy: Did I? Really?
15:31	headius	fdaoud: I have no idea why I'm listed first...I think I wrote one appendix and revised some content
15:31	fdaoud	headius: because you are The Man
15:32	amalloy	Raynes: yes. i pushed a fix for you and reloaded
15:32	headius	fdaoud: yeah, but still! :)
15:32	fdaoud	marketing, marketing, marketing, it's all good
15:32	Raynes	Awesome.
15:33	fdaoud	headius: I hear ya, but it's like that, you know, like with "Foreword by <The Man>" even if it's one or two pages, just to put the name on the cover
15:33	headius	yeah I suppose that's true
15:33	fdaoud	headius: I got the creator of Stripes to write a few boxes in my book just so we could put his name on the cover :)
15:36	TimMc	headius: Was just rereading Dune, and there's a part early on where Paul is given the Orange Catholic Bible in a tiny format where electrostatic charge is used to separate pages -- the paper is so thin you can't touch it safely. :-)
15:38	fdaoud	TimMc: safely for you or for the paper?
15:38	TimMc	the paper
15:38	fdaoud	heh
15:38	TimMc	You select which pages to open, and it directs the charge to that pair.
15:38	headius	TimMc: yeah, I remember that part
15:38	TimMc	I had totally forgotten. It's a cute idea.
15:39	headius	I'm finally reading snow crash...bunch of wacky stuff like that in there too
15:40	fdaoud	headius: so tell me what Mr. JRuby/Mirah is doing in Clojure?
15:40	headius	I always idle here to keep clojurists honest
15:41	fdaoud	?
15:41	headius	just in case they say something about jruby!
15:41	headius	:)
15:41	TimMc	We're all in this VM together.
15:41	headius	no, I like clojure
15:41	fdaoud	like to tell them when they beep the terminal? stuff like that? ;)
15:41	headius	and scala, and mirah, and jython, and fantom
15:41	headius	I don't like groovy, though :D
15:41	fdaoud	yeah, same here (minus scala, hate the syntax)
15:42	TimMc	testing... lazy queued concrete background integer buffer java.util.
15:43	TimMc	Any beeps there?
15:43	fdaoud	clojurebot: jruby
15:43	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
15:43	fdaoud	eh?
15:44	fdaoud	May you fall without rising?
15:44	TimMc	I know someone who had "cat" on her IRC highlights list. It drove her nuts (category, cattle, ...) until she figured out what it was (and put \b around it.)
15:47	hiredman	~clojurebot
15:47	clojurebot	clojurebot has a lot of features, most of which are broken
15:47	hiredman	~clojurebot \|has\| a poetic soul
15:47	clojurebot	c'est bon!
15:47	hiredman	~clojurebot
15:47	clojurebot	clojurebot is not a benchmarking platform
15:47	hiredman	~clojurebot
15:47	clojurebot	clojurebot is not very good at indicating the difference between a return value and an exception
15:48	amalloy	hiredman: clojurebot factoid DoS here
15:48	hiredman	hmmm?
15:49	amalloy	hiredman: just funny that there were so many entries for clojurebot that you couldn't get him to repeat yours. sounds a little like a DoS, if you tilt your head and squint
15:50	hiredman	I was hoping for the "clojurebot is a cold heartless unfeeling mechanism"
15:50	hiredman	~clojurebot
15:50	clojurebot	clojurebot will become skynet
15:52	pjstadig	hiredman: i could say it for you, if you want...
15:53	TimMc	hiredman: It took me like 15 tries in /privmsg to get it.
15:53	TimMc	Now it won't come around again for ages!
15:59	bhenry	technomancy: or anyone who knows: how can i add an extra-lib dir to the classpath so that i can have jars in there that aren't maintained by lein clean, deps, etc.?
16:01	hiredman	,(macroexpand '`(~f ~arg))
16:01	clojurebot	(clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list f) (clojure.core/list arg)))
16:05	amalloy	hiredman: yes, i'm aware you can lose metadata on internal arguments sometimes when you syntax-quote. that's a problem that's rarer, but also harder to fix
16:06	amalloy	,(let [f 'inc, arg (with-meta '(inc 1) {:x 1})] (meta (second `(~f ~arg))))
16:06	clojurebot	{:x 1}
16:07	amalloy	eg, in this simple case it's not a problem, but it is if you do crazier stuff. my issue is that macros unintentionally discard meta on their &form, not because ` diesn't "do the right thing" but because they never look at it to begin with
16:08	hiredman	ah, yes, because the resulting form is rewritten away
16:09	amalloy	indeed
16:09	TimMc	bhenry: There's a sample project.clj somewhere...
16:09	hiredman	shrug
16:09	bhenry	i remember that. TimMc. i'm toying with the resources dir. this could work for me.
16:10	bhenry	gah. nope
16:10	Bronsa	how can i find the position of the first non positive value in a vector?
16:10	amalloy	Bronsa: ##(doc keep-indexed)
16:10	lazybot	⇒ "([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the non-nil results of (f index item). Note, this means false return values will be included. f must be free of side-effects."
16:10	Bronsa	thanks amalloy
16:10	Bronsa	that was fast
16:10	hiredman	the solution to that is to have macroexpansion return an Expr with getJavaType (or whatever method) returning the right thing, but it makes things rather complicated with the compiler
16:11	amalloy	bhenry: technomancy frowns on (with good reason) having jars that aren't managed by maven. it leads to builds that can only be reproduced on a single machine
16:12	bhenry	amalloy: i have a jdbc driver jar that i downloaded from the vendor directly. it is not in clojars or what have you. how can i manage this?
16:12	amalloy	hiredman: it doesn't have to, does it? the compiler can just merge the meta returned by macroexpand with the meta attached to the original macro form itself
16:12	TimMc	bhenry: The resources dir really should work.
16:12	TimMc	bhenry: There's also :extra-classpath-dirs
16:12	amalloy	bhenry: it's usually in maven central
16:12	hiredman	amalloy: but macros can return forms that don't support metadata
16:13	hiredman	it could do a check I guess
16:13	amalloy	hiredman: right, which i point out as a problem in my original post
16:13	amalloy	and suggest doing that check
16:13	tyson2	John McCarthy died last night
16:13	TimMc	bhenry: ...but :resources-path is intended for that.
16:14	hiredman	people keep saying that, but I have yet to see anything on the internet to confirm it outside of a wikipedia link
16:15	tyson2	I guess we'll have to wait for the cellphone video
16:15	TimMc	tyson2: Wiki talk page links to laughingsquid links to HN links to... WP.
16:16	TimMc	I was just wondering last week if he was still around.
16:20	jcromartie	tyson2: so they say
16:26	semperos	I'm doing interop with a Java lib that takes, as a parameter to a method, a class to construct; if I pass in a Clojure record, it throws an InstantiationException
16:26	semperos	the lib first tries .getConstructor, followed by .newInstance if that fails
16:27	semperos	any thoughts on how I could make this work?
16:27	hiredman	records don't have 0 arg constructors
16:27	hiredman	which .newInstance more or less requires (unless you are fiddling with this and that)
16:28	semperos	here's the Java lib's code
16:28	semperos	(method called instantiatePage): http://code.google.com/p/selenium/source/browse/trunk/java/client/src/org/openqa/selenium/support/PageFactory.java)
16:28	semperos	which does pass in a param to newInstance
16:29	hiredman	right, so you can't do that
16:30	semperos	so if I have a record defined (defrecord Foobar [foo])
16:30	hiredman	can't do that
16:30	semperos	what happens "under the covers" in terms of constructors?
16:30	semperos	right, I'm just trying to better understand how records work
16:31	hiredman	semperos: one plus the number of fields, more or less
16:32	hiredman	actually, I take that back
16:32	hiredman	it must just be the number of fields
16:32	hiredman	so possibly [] might work
16:34	hiredman	something is number of fields + 1, maybe it's fn constructors or something
16:34	semperos	ok
16:36	semperos	related question in my playing with classes
16:36	semperos	java.lang.Class cannot be cast to [Ljava.lang.Class;
16:36	semperos	what exactly is the [Ljava.lang.Class piece?
16:37	hiredman	[ means array, L means reference type
16:37	hiredman	well, L...; means reference type, the bit in the middle is the name
16:37	semperos	ok, thanks
16:39	broquaint	I'm feeling quite slow - if I have a dependency declared in my lein project.clj and installed (via lein deps) how would I access it at the repl?
16:40	broquaint	My naive attempt of (use 'fnparse) is failing with java.io.FileNotFoundException.
16:40	amalloy	hiredman: fields+1 for meta
16:40	semperos	broquaint: how are you starting your REPL?
16:41	mefesto	broquaint: did you restart the repl since performing lein deps?
16:41	TimMc	semperos: THe lib is expecting beany classes?
16:41	amalloy	fnparse is not the package name
16:41	broquaint	Aha, indeed, amalloy :)
16:41	hiredman	amalloy: sure, it definitely exposes a fields constructor
16:41	semperos	TimMc: just plain ol' classes
16:42	broquaint	Should've just followed the example instead of trying to be a clever dick :s http://brehaut.net/blog/2011/fnparse_introduction
16:43	brehaut	broquaint: if there are any real bugs in that let me know and i'll fix it
16:44	broquaint	Thanks, brehaut, will do :)
16:46	Raynes	jodaro: Ping.
16:46	amalloy	brehaut: does the garish yellow-orange count?
16:46	brehaut	amalloy: thats a feature
16:47	semperos	calling .getConstructor on a Clojure record that I've defined only allows passing java.lang.Object as the class of the parameter to the record's constructor
16:47	Raynes	brehaut: I actually had to nix your fnparse stuff in lazybot's Clojure plugin.
16:47	brehaut	Raynes: sad
16:47	semperos	even if I add the hint in the defrecord form for the class it should accept
16:47	brehaut	Raynes: was it breaking something?
16:47	Raynes	I was updating to 1.3, and since fnparse is all but abandoned, I figured it wasn't worth it to put effort forth to update it.
16:47	semperos	example: https://gist.github.com/1310181
16:47	brehaut	Raynes: ah :S
16:47	Raynes	Twas a hard decision.
16:47	semperos	that code throws:
16:48	semperos	user.MyPage.<init>(org.openqa.selenium.WebDriver)
16:48	semperos	[Thrown class java.lang.NoSuchMethodException]
16:48	Raynes	amalloy and I cried as we hit backspace.
16:48	brehaut	Raynes: when parsley has docs i guess i could try recreating it
16:48	jodaro	Raynes: pong
16:58	Raynes	brehaut: More docs than the README? Psh.
16:58	Raynes	You should be able to get everything you need from a README. Even ones that aren't there. It just happens.
16:58	brehaut	Raynes: im only a simpleton
17:02	aaelony	Hi, I have a deeply nested structure that I'd like to apply destructuring to, but it only seems to work for the top levels. Essentially, for something like (def data {:a {:a1 1 :a2 2} :b {:b1 3 :b2 4 :b3 [{:name "foo" :newValue 5} {:name "bar" :newValue 6}] :b4 7}} )
17:02	aaelony	I'd like to extract the contents of :b3 and deeper... Simplified example here http://pastie.org/2752755
17:03	aaelony	any help appreciated..
17:03	aaelony	I wonder if there is a :keys-in or something...
17:04	Raynes	That'd be too easy,
17:04	pierre1	hey
17:04	aaelony	...fair enough...
17:04	jamiltron	fnparse is abandoned :( ?
17:04	mefesto	aaelony: (let [{:keys [name newValue]} (get-in data [:b :b3])] [name newValue]) ;; not good enough?
17:04	brehaut	aaelony: (let [{{c :a} :b} {:b {:a 1}}] c)
17:04	pierre1	am I missing the way to get a backtrace in the repl, with clojure 1.3.0?
17:04	Raynes	pierre1: (pst *e)
17:05	pierre1	Raynes++ thanks
17:05	TimMc	(inc Raynes)
17:05	lazybot	⟹ 6
17:05	Raynes	o/
17:05	aaelony	mefesto, brehaut I'll experiment with those ideas, thanks, that might do it
17:08	brehaut	the parsley docs are way more complete than i recall them being
17:08	brehaut	there goes the next weekend
17:08	Raynes	brehaut: :)
17:09	Raynes	brehaut: You could always do this in the meantime: https://github.com/flatland/lazybot/issues/40
17:31	devn	RIP John McCarthy
17:32	Raynes	devn: Is it actually confirmed yet?
17:32	jcrossley3	http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/24/creator-of-lisp-john-mccarthy-dead-at-84/
17:32	Raynes	Well, son of a bitch.
17:33	Raynes	Eh. They source the HN thread that sources wikipedia that sources HN.
17:33	brehaut	high quality reporting there
17:34	devn	they reference a portugese website on wikipedia
17:34	brehaut	http://g1.globo.com/tecnologia/noticia/2011/10/morre-john-mccarthy-pioneiro-da-inteligencia-artificial.html is the article that WP cites
17:34	devn	^
17:35	technomancy	if only they had cyclic dependency detection
17:35	devn	The Talk page has friends of the family and a couple of journalists confirming.
17:36	devn	"I spoke to the Associate Director of Communications at Stanford School of Engineering, and Dan Stober of Stanford News Service. Both have confirmed that Professor McCarthy passed away this weekend. They both said there were not a lot of details available at this time. An obituary will be issued by Stanford soon."
17:37	brehaut	that talk page really highlights how farcically anal retentive wikipedia can be
17:37	Raynes	I'm kind of on wikipedia's side here.
17:38	Raynes	But it is looking good.
17:38	devn	brehaut: yeah it's sad
17:39	devn	brehaut: I've tried to wage a couple of wars by opposing proposed article deletion for very relevant software projects that lots of people know about, but for which there is not a great deal of reporting in...say...the new york times
17:39	devn	the standards for notability is are out of whack in that they dont consider software to be a creative work. i understand why this would be the case for people trying to pimp their crappy winamp clone, but for major projects I've seen deletion proposed and carried out
17:40	brehaut	devn: yeah :/ the best you can hope for is that a special interest group is established and you can point to that groups guidelines for notability rather than the defaults
17:40	brehaut	devn: perhaps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Programming_languages ?
17:41	devn	Jobs, Ritchie, McCarthy
17:42	mdeboard	SQL inventor is next
17:43	mdeboard	Don Chamberlin, he's getting up there
17:43	brehaut	mdeboard: oh crap, that'll take out about 100 people
17:43	mdeboard	brehaut: lol
17:47	devn	http://i.imgur.com/Y02DM.jpg
17:48	technomancy	I had that printed out at my desk at my job a couple years ago
17:50	brehaut	i had http://i.imgur.com/1gF1j.jpg on the wall at my last job
17:51	technomancy	brehaut: I think that grid needsmore blank spaces for spots where one group is unaware of the existence of another.
17:52	brehaut	technomancy: thats true
17:52	devn	I just have a picture of Rich on my desk that says: "That is orthogonal."
17:52	devn	not really-- just trying to fit in...
17:53	TimMc	brehaut: Cascading delete?
17:53	brehaut	TimMc: i was thinking design by committee, but sure :)
17:53	brehaut	devn: lol
17:59	jcromartie	famous people die in clusters of three
17:59	amalloy	brehaut: nice. i'd only seen the version of that chart without lisp/haskell
17:59	brehaut	the terrified cat and the buy a vowel really make it eh
18:00	jamiltron	I don't get why Lisper's view Ruby as Sarah Palin with cleavage, but it certainly scares my coworkers when I start laughing so hard.
18:07	TimMc	Perhaps a sexier version of Java?
18:07	jodaro	that must be it
18:07	jodaro	and
18:07	brehaut	i think thats the implication
18:07	jodaro	thats not really her cleavage, is it?
18:32	cemerick	holy crud, bad month
18:32	aaelony	I like anonymous map function syntax such as (map #(f %) coll), but am struggling to determine the right way to do 2 or more nested map calls, say for example if each % itself needed a map function applied to it. thanks for any ideas...
18:33	brehaut	aaelony: you cannot have nested #(…) fns, you have to use a (fn […] …) form
18:33	amalloy	aaelony: you probably want to use (for) instead of a map/fn pair anyway, especially if you're nesting
18:34	aaelony	brehaut: I want to learn fn syntax, but somehow can't grasp it. What is the % equivalent in fn syntax?
18:34	brehaut	,(map (fn [xs] (map #(inc %) xs)) [[1 2 3] [2 3 4]])
18:34	clojurebot	((2 3 4) (3 4 5))
18:35	brehaut	aaelony: you explicilty name the arguments like you would any other fn
18:35	aaelony	i don't know why that seemed so hard... thanks brehaut
18:35	brehaut	aaelony: and in a real program you would never do #(inc %); you'd just pass inc
18:35	aaelony	amalloy: you're likely right, but I think I need 3 map nestings and then a for (for this particular thing I need now)
18:36	brehaut	aaelony: id write it as (map (partial map inc) [[1 2 3] [2 3 4]]) probably
18:38	raek	aaelony: also consider 'for': ##(for [x (range 3)] (for [y (range 3)] {:x x, :y y}))
18:38	lazybot	⇒ (({:x 0, :y 0} {:x 0, :y 1} {:x 0, :y 2}) ({:x 1, :y 0} {:x 1, :y 1} {:x 1, :y 2}) ({:x 2, :y 0} {:x 2, :y 1} {:x 2, :y 2}))
18:38	aaelony	using partial would be great... I can get what I want in a big let statement asking directly for a key at a time, but I'd like to grab a destructured vector of values from the keys... still getting there...
18:39	aaelony	raek: I'll explore that more as wlel
18:39	aaelony	well
18:39	raek	,(let [{[a b] :foo} {:foo [1 2]}] [a b])
18:39	clojurebot	[1 2]
18:41	raek	aaelony: to do nested destructuring that includes maps, use the underlying destructuring syntax {a :a, b :b} instead of the shorthand {:keys [a b]}
18:41	aaelony	yeah, unfortunately :keys didn't work past the top level
18:41	raek	the symbols a and b in the first one can be replaced with other destructuring
18:42	aaelony	I've also got a vector of maps well into the 3rd nesting
18:42	raek	:keys is just a shorthand for when the thing you want to bind has the same name as the keyword
18:42	aaelony	yes
18:42	raek	which is not the cae if the thing you want to bind is a destructuring form
18:43	aaelony	yes
18:43	raek	if you are just interested in a single value, you can use get-in or ->
18:43	aaelony	actually I need a list of values
18:44	aaelony	selected values (usually 2 or 3) from each nesting level
18:44	raek	you can also have multiple rows in a let to make this less messy
18:45	aaelony	ok
18:46	aaelony	essentially I have a large amount of "records" which are the maps in a vector. Each "record" has the frightening amount of nested nestings. Anyways, it should be fun... ;)
18:54	jodaro	hah!
18:55	jodaro	"i need to get the first of the first"
18:55	jodaro	"theres a function for that! ffirst"
18:55	jodaro	so rad
18:55	gfredericks	$findfn [[8 7] [3 4]] 8
18:55	lazybot	[clojure.core/ffirst]
18:55	amalloy	dang gfredericks, out-typed me
18:55	gfredericks	amalloy: you shouldn't have tried to do six-element lists
18:56	amalloy	gfredericks: i was going for infinite
18:56	gfredericks	yeah that takes a while
18:56	amalloy	$findfn (for [x (range)] (for [y (range)] y)) 0
18:56	lazybot	Execution timed out.
18:56	amalloy	haha ouch
18:57	gfredericks	hmmm
18:57	gfredericks	$findfn (repeat (iterate inc 0)) 0
18:57	lazybot	java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
18:57	gfredericks	golly
18:58	gfredericks	lazybot doesn't seem very lazy...
18:59	brehaut	gfredericks: thats trying every function in the lib, imagine seq or vec or something on that expression
18:59	gfredericks	brehaut: that there is a perfectly compelling explanation.
19:01	amalloy	brehaut: well, i think i changed the timeouts so that this is less of a problem
19:01	amalloy	$findfn 0
19:01	lazybot	[clojure.core/+ clojure.core/+' clojure.core/release-pending-sends]
19:02	amalloy	hm. that's not a very instructive example of what i meant
19:03	amalloy	anyway it's supposed to work out to each individual function only getting like 100ms, in addition to the whole thing getting only 10s. so in theory you can get findfn results for infinite sequences, as long as only a couple dozen functions fail to terminate
19:17	technomancy	I wonder if it would be possible to make a generic lazy-seq -> rest pagination library.
19:17	technomancy	I guess the problem is that drop on a lazy seq causes all the dropped elements to be realized, whereas in pagination you truly want those elements simply skipped.
19:19	hiredman	IDrop
19:24	technomancy	somethnig like that
19:55	seancorfield	what is the current received wisdom on aquamacs vs regular emacs on os x?
19:55	brehaut	regular emacs i believe
19:55	technomancy	GNU Emacs is supported, forks are not.
19:55	brehaut	http://emacsformacosx.com/
19:55	hiredman	aquamacs is dumb
19:55	technomancy	reports of success remain unverified
19:56	dnolen	Aquamacs works fine last time I checked. Easier for newbies.
19:57	seancorfield	i thought i'd seen a couple of the clojure/core folks using aquamacs?
19:57	brehaut	seancorfield: emacsformacosx builds support cocoa, so have open dialogs and standard mac keys bound
19:57	seancorfield	ah, ok
19:57	technomancy	I've heard reports of aquamacs bundling an incompatible version of slime.
19:57	hiredman	brehaut: but missing the fullscreen patch
19:57	brehaut	hiredman: sadly :(
19:58	seancorfield	hiredman: so what do you think is the best version of emacs for os x?
19:58	brehaut	hiredman: im running emacs in fullscreen terminal in the interim
19:59	hiredman	seancorfield: emacsformacosx is fine, for the best you need to find a build with the fullscreen patch or build it your self
19:59	seancorfield	'k
20:06	dnolen	seancorfield: rhickey uses it
20:10	scgilardi	I use terminal-based emacs 24 built infrequently from the development head with iTerm2 as the terminal. I also use cmd-key-happy to swap cmd and option for most functions, but preserve cmd-H as Hide iTerm.
20:11	brehaut	i have heard a rumour that homebrew has support for the fullscreen patch for cocoa emacs
20:12	brehaut	but i dont use it myself
20:12	hiredman	they have a -- flag that does nothing
20:12	brehaut	fantastic
20:12	hiredman	like --with-fs-patch or something, but it doesn't do anything
20:20	jamiltron	I'm wondering if I can get some help with my lwjgl project. Specifically I want to figure out what I'm doing wrong that's making the animation so blurry: https://github.com/jamiltron/brickhit
20:21	jamiltron	I'm using slick-util to load a texture, but when I draw it using lwjgl its coming up all blurry. I realize I should probably ask on their forums but I was thinking I might try for someone who can read Clojure first.
20:24	devn	Building emacs 24 from source with the fullscreen patch is not too difficult
20:25	devn	it takes a bit of googling to find the patch, but it has continued to apply cleanly without issue
20:26	devn	jamiltron: im not sure I can be of help, but where am I looking in this repo?
20:27	Raynes	devn: Pretty sure the patch is in Emacs common now.
20:27	devn	Raynes: good to hear
20:27	Raynes	s/common/proper/
20:28	Raynes	I'm not using it though -- I don't have it in me to pull the repo.
20:28	devn	heh -- yeah, it's exhausting making machines fetch ;)
20:31	simard	is there a function like partial that would bind arguments from right to left instead of left to rigth ?
20:31	simard	right
20:33	devn	simard: you could just grab the source and make your own reverse partial
20:33	devn	simard: why do you need a reverse partial?
20:35	simard	devn: maybe it's just me, but I find that when using protocols, the function expecting to be passed the object as a first argument forces that
20:35	simard	did that make sense ?
20:37	devn	simard: im not sure what you mean. Could you post a code example?
20:37	simard	devn: in the making
20:37	devn	(to gist.github.com or something)
20:37	brehaut	im sure you could use a horrific point free mess of comp partial, apply and reverse
20:37	jamiltron	devn: the util.clj draw function is a good start
20:37	brehaut	,((comp (partial apply vector 1) reverse (fn [& args] args)) 1 2 3)
20:37	clojurebot	[1 3 2 1]
20:37	jamiltron	devn: sorry for the delay
20:38	devn	simard: does what brehaut posted help you out?
20:39	brehaut	i hope not :P
20:39	simard	I kinda have that same hope
20:39	simard	wait a minute, I'm writing a sample
20:40	devn	brehaut: lol why do you say that?
20:41	brehaut	devn: you mean other than the attempt at todays greatest abuse of point free award (it'll only get runner up though; no juxt)?
20:41	devn	oh man -- dont get me started on juxting
20:41	devn	juxting is some of the most fun a lad can have
20:41	devn	(or lady for that matter)
20:45	devn	,((juxt + max min) 2 3 5 1 6 4)
20:45	clojurebot	[21 6 1]
20:46	devn	brehaut: i've always loved that one
20:47	amalloy	brehaut: earlier today i wrote (((partial juxt inc) dec) 5) to annoy someone: do i win a prize?
20:47	brehaut	ooh maybe
20:47	simard	https://github.com/gsimard/junk/blob/master/junk.clj
20:48	brehaut	devn: my favorite point free is main = interact $ show . head . (foldr1 $ \t b -> zipWith (+) t $ zipWith max b $ tail b) . (map $ (map read) . words) . lines
20:48	brehaut	(project euler 18)
20:48	simard	ok, so that is what I needed, and I'm probably just at the corner of getting it right
20:48	devn	haskell is hard to read on IRC.
20:49	simard	although I'm more concerned about the very reason I need it, more than how to achieve it
20:49	devn	Although I think I once felt that way about clojure. lack of familiarity
20:49	brehaut	lets be honest, that one doesnt get much clearer out of irc
20:49	devn	heh
20:49	amalloy	brehaut tells it like it is
20:50	amalloy	brehaut: what's this foldr1 thing?
20:50	brehaut	its a right fold
20:51	brehaut	the 1 means that you dont pass the initial value, it takes it from the list
20:51	amalloy	ah
20:51	devn	foldr (+) 5 [1,2,3,4] => 15
20:51	brehaut	because variadic functions in haskell requires some serious work
20:51	devn	foldr1 (+) [1,2,3,4] => 10
20:51	amalloy	well now that i know what foldr1 is the whole snippet makes perfect sense...
20:53	zerokarmaleft	jamiltron: hmm, collision detection seems to be wonky sometimes
20:53	brehaut	amalloy: http://www.4clojure.com/problem/solutions/79 ;)
20:54	devn	I have 30 tabs open in chrome.
20:54	jamiltron	zerokarmaleft: yeah, collision detection and edge detection are pretty crappy right now, I mostly was trying to get something working for proof-of-concept
20:55	amalloy	wow, my solution to that is terrible
20:55	jamiltron	zerokarmaleft: right now I'm mostly wondering if my GL11 functions are 'right'
20:58	technomancy	devn: http://i.imgur.com/utsSX.png
20:59	brehaut	gold
21:00	devn	technomancy: hahaha
21:00	devn	Does anyone know if there's a chrome extension to force a limit to the number of tabs?
21:01	devn	https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/kjecajkoiikaohhagojedcphegkcfobm
21:01	amalloy	sudo apt-get remove google-chrome
21:01	amalloy	that would probably do it
21:03	devn	ha! how nice. as soon as you install "No More Tabs", it just removes a bunch of your tabs.
21:03	brehaut	blunt
22:00	seancorfield	technomancy: i'm trying to follow your starter-kit instructions...
22:01	seancorfield	i installed emacs 24.0.90
22:02	seancorfield	i edited ~/.emacs.d/init.el as shown on your github page https://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit
22:02	seancorfield	but when i try to do package-install, it says starter-kit has no match
22:02	seancorfield	what obvious step am i missing?
22:03	duck1123	seancorfield: try package-list-packages
22:03	simard	seancorfield: did you refresh ?
22:04	simard	M-x package-refresh-contents
22:05	seancorfield	seems to take a long time to contact tromey.com:80
22:05	simard	seancorfield: you didn't evaluate the 3 other lines
22:05	seancorfield	?
22:05	simard	the require, add-to-list and package-initialize
22:06	seancorfield	that's in init.el per technomancy's instructions
22:06	simard	should be evaluated, if you're not restarting emacs
22:06	seancorfield	i restarted emacs just to be sure
22:06	simard	evaluate them just to be sure then .. :)
22:08	seancorfield	done
22:08	simard	ie.: go at the end of their parenthesis, type C-x C-e, for all 3 lines
22:08	simard	and then M-x refresh
22:08	simard	and install
22:09	seancorfield	yup, done all that, several times
22:09	seancorfield	well, i'll be blowed... this time it actually worked!
22:10	seancorfield	now it's busy installing stuff and compiling it
22:10	seancorfield	bunch of warnings but it seemed to finish correctly
22:10	simard	well, there you go then
22:11	duck1123	you can pretty much ignore the warnings
22:18	seancorfield	to save me going insane, if you split a window horizontally, how do you unsplit it? so far figuring that out has defeated all my attempts :)
22:18	simard	C-x 0
22:18	seancorfield	ah...
22:18	simard	on the window you don't want to keep
22:19	duck1123	or C-x 1 if you want to get rid of them all
22:19	seancorfield	thank you!!! i couldn't find that anywhere!
22:19	seancorfield	c-x 1 i knew about (from the tutorial)
22:19	brehaut	seancorfield: you know about the terms window and frame in emacs lingo ?
22:19	simard	yeah, you're up for some learning curve there. but it's well worth it IMHO
22:19	seancorfield	delete-window... i never would have guessed... sigh
22:20	seancorfield	i haven't touched emacs for about 20 years
22:20	archaic	if you need to find something, usually c-h a will find it
22:20	archaic	ie c-h a 'window'
22:20	archaic	would find c-x 0
22:20	brehaut	seancorfield: i spent ages trying to find revert-buffer
22:21	seancorfield	one of my teammates has rejected eclipse + ccw and is trying all sorts of text editors... i have a little netbook (as well as my big imac) and eclipse is a bit bloaty on that so i'm giving emacs another try...
22:21	seancorfield	ok, off to watch TV and do stuff on the netbook
22:21	seancorfield	thank you!!
22:21	brehaut	seancorfield: its a good time to get back into emacs for clojure i think
22:23	brandel	I know I would benefit from using emacs, but I've been using vim for over 10 years.. suspect it would be difficult to get used to
22:24	simard	brandel: you know about viper-mode right ? :)
22:24	brandel	nope?
22:24	duck1123	brandel: it's well worth the investment
22:24	simard	it's a vi emulation layer for eamcs
22:24	simard	emacs*
22:25	simard	start emacs, M-x viper-mode
22:25	brandel	oh.. does it work reasonably well?
22:25	simard	no idea :)
22:25	simard	you tell me
22:25	brandel	fair enough! I will investigate
22:25	brehaut	you too can migrate from one archaic editor to another ;)
22:25	brandel	cheers simard
22:25	brandel	hahah
22:25	duck1123	Although, using vim keybindings in emacs is kinda missing the point
22:26	simard	brehaut: what do you use youself ?
22:26	brehaut	the old shoggoth, emacs
22:26	brehaut	and textmate (but not for clojure, yikes)
22:26	duck1123	an ancient, great power
22:26	brandel	duck1123: my brain is wired for vim, but I guess it's never too late to teach an old dog new tricks
22:26	brehaut	ive recently reverted
22:27	brehaut	simard: http://brehaut.net/blog/2011/marcel
22:27	brehaut	i do want to give eclipse and ccw 0.4 a crack
22:27	duck1123	lately, I've been loving how many of the emacs bindings work in the terminal
22:28	brehaut	duck1123: and work system wide in the mac
22:29	duck1123	don't get me started on the mac, too many lost windows when all I wanted to do was copy some text
22:30	brandel	I would be a lot happier with the mac if I could have something like xmonad/awesome
22:30	duck1123	I would settle for Compiz's put plugin
22:30	brehaut	brandel: emacs in a full screen terminal ;)
22:31	archaic	no, you dont want viper mode, you want emacs-evil mode i contendt that it is BETTER than vim at vim.. and I used vim for along time.. . repeat works flawlessly, visual blocks, macros etc everything is there + you get all emacs commands + you can create new modes pretty simply
22:31	brandel	hah yeah, my ghetto tiling wm emulation is screen in a full screen terminal
22:31	archaic	seriously
22:31	archaic	if you use vim..
22:31	duck1123	brehaut: that's how I work when I'm on the mac
22:31	archaic	you want that
22:31	brandel	how emacsy is that? there are two vim emulation modes? O.o
22:32	duck1123	I'm still upset there's no good WM in java that I can hook clojure up to. (ala. StumpWM)
22:32	brandel	but thank you archaic, that sounds excellent
22:32	jodaro	it does everything. even other editors.
22:32	brehaut	duck1123: just go learn rep and use sawfish ;)
22:33	sean_corfield	ok, on the netbook now so expect more emacs questions :)
22:34	brehaut	my burning emacs question is how do i step back through previous expressions in the swank repl?
22:34	brehaut	slime?
22:34	clojurebot	slime-installer is http://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/blob/0f28b61de90ce8a09d75bf1668ef3f1c200f9c52/clojure-mode.el#L560
22:34	duck1123	M-p
22:35	brehaut	and M-n to go down i see.
22:35	brehaut	(inc duck1123)
22:35	lazybot	⟹ 2
22:36	duck1123	If you start typing an expression, then do M-p, it'll find expressions that match
22:36	brehaut	excellent
22:36	brehaut	does C-r work similarly?
22:37	zerokarmaleft	what's the deal with paredit advancing out of the outermost sexp when closing a square bracket?
22:37	zerokarmaleft	only happens when i'm in a slime buffer
22:38	duck1123	zerokarmaleft: so when it's done, is it still well-formed?
22:38	scottj	zerokarmaleft: you probably have ] bounded to paredit-close-parenthesis instead of paredit-close-square
22:39	duck1123	brehaut: C-r searches in the buffer, but if you enter on that line, it'll paste it
22:39	brehaut	duck1123: excellent, thanks :)
22:39	zerokarmaleft	duck1123: well no, e.g. (defn foo [x])
22:39	zerokarmaleft	scottj: checking, i've been messing around with keybindings lately
22:40	duck1123	brehaut: didn't actually have a repl running yet...
22:40	zerokarmaleft	scottj: nope, only rebound the slurp and barf commands
22:41	scottj	zerokarmaleft: go into repl or wherever this is happening and do C-h k ]
22:41	zerokarmaleft	it's bound to paredit-close-square
22:43	scottj	but when you type ([] you get ([])\| instead of ([]\|)?
22:43	duck1123	zerokarmaleft: could you show what it looks like before and after
22:43	zerokarmaleft	scottj: right, except paredit fills in the closing paren before i start the square brackets
22:44	zerokarmaleft	1. (\|) 2. ([\|]) 3. ([])\|
22:45	duck1123	zerokarmaleft: same thing is happening to me
22:45	zerokarmaleft	works fine when i'm just editing a file buffer though
22:45	zerokarmaleft	maybe i borked my slime hook
22:46	duck1123	I bet it has something to do with slime considering the expression complete
22:53	archaic	if there a function that does this?: apply function to the values of a map whos keys pass a predicate
22:55	sean_corfield	for emacs 24 on ubuntu, what's the recommended source?
22:55	duck1123`	archaic: you could use map and filter
22:55	brehaut	,(keep (fn [[k v]] (when (odd? k) (name v))) {1 :a 2 :b 3 :c}) ; archaic ?
22:55	clojurebot	("a" "c")
22:56	sean_corfield	i found damien cassou's PPA for emacs-snapshot
22:56	sean_corfield	other emacs 24 options on ubuntu 11.10?
22:58	brehaut	,(for [[k v] {1 "foo" 2 "bar" 3 "baz"} :when (odd? k)] (.toUpperCase v)) ; archaic, alternatively
22:58	clojurebot	("FOO" "BAZ")
22:58	archaic	i was thinking more (fn.. {1 10 2 10 3 10} even? inc) -> {1 10 2 11 3 10} ill write it i guess
23:05	duck1123`	,(into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k (if (even? k) (inc v) v)]) {1 10 2 11 3 10}))
23:05	clojurebot	{1 10, 2 12, 3 10}
23:06	duck1123`	well, that would've worked better if I had the inputs right
23:08	amalloy	zerokarmaleft: i think the slime repl doesn't know about clojure's syntax by default, doesn't know ] is a close-paren
23:09	duck1123`	does paredit use language-specific rules
23:09	amalloy	i haven't put a great deal of effort into getting paredit in the repl, but you can give it the right syntax table with (add-hook 'slime-repl-mode-hook (lambda () (interactive) (set-syntax-table clojure-mode-syntax-table)))
23:10	archaic	duck: thx, what I came up with abeit later :)
23:30	sean_corfield	sorry for all the quit/joins... netbook needed a major update and now i have emacs 24.0.90 on ubuntu 11.10
23:31	semperos	I've defined record as follows: https://gist.github.com/1311216
23:32	semperos	I need to refer to the WindowHandle class directly at a later point, so I try to (:import clj_webdriver.window_handle), but to no avail
23:32	semperos	what am I doing wrong?
23:34	sean_corfield	hmm, that went a lot more smoothly on ubuntu than on os x... ok, now i have the starter kit installed, how do i tie into a repl? :)
23:35	archaic	using lein or cake?
23:35	brehaut	sean_corfield: open a buffer in a project and type M-x clojure-jack-in ?
23:35	duck1123`	semperos: try clj-webdriver.WindowHandle
23:35	duck1123`	sean_corfield: alternately, lein swank and M-x slime-connect
23:36	sean_corfield	lein
23:36	zerokarmaleft	amalloy: that works great, thanks!
23:36	sean_corfield	brehaut: no match on M-x clojure-jack-in
23:37	brehaut	sean_corfield: have you followed the instructions here https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure ?
23:37	sean_corfield	lein swank is not a task :)
23:37	sean_corfield	brehaut: no, i just did the starter-kit stuff
23:37	brehaut	lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.3.3 :)
23:38	sean_corfield	thx
23:38	brehaut	(dont run the smily face on the command line)
23:38	spoon16	is there a way to kill a running command at the lein repl without killing the whole process?
23:39	sean_corfield	wow, that's a lot of reflection warnings (lein swank)
23:40	sean_corfield	ok, i don't have slime-connect either in emacs
23:40	semperos	you tried M-x slime-connect ?
23:40	sean_corfield	so how do i get clojure-jack-in and/or slime-connect
23:41	sean_corfield	i assumed the starter-kit would give me everything i needed since it was from technomancy :)
23:41	brehaut	do you have start-kit-lisp in your packages ?
23:41	brehaut	err starter-kit-lisp
23:41	zerokarmaleft	spoon16: afaik, no...it's wise to set print-length and print-level to sane values
23:41	sean_corfield	brehaut: doesn't that get installed as part of the starter-kit?
23:41	sean_corfield	it's no wonder folks get frustrated trying to set up emacs...
23:41	brehaut	sean_corfield: nope, each language has a sub starter kit that you set up explicitly
23:42	brehaut	sean_corfield: to be fair, this stuff is in the readme for the starter kit v2
23:45	sean_corfield	ok, installed starter-kit-lisp and still no slime-connect so wtf do i get that? frustrated
23:45	brehaut	im confused now
23:45	brehaut	cause i think thats all i did
23:47	archaic	can you do m-x clojure-mode?
23:48	sean_corfield	sigh no...
23:48	sean_corfield	it looks like the lisp starter kit is NOT installed
23:49	sean_corfield	jeez, this is a pain
23:49	mintsoup	if you're just trying to get clojure support in slime, why not just follow the instructions for swank-clojure? it's about as simple as it gets
23:49	technomancy	haha; holy crap.
23:49	brehaut	have you done a M-x package-refresh-contents ?
23:49	technomancy	clojurebot: forget slime-installer \|is\| http://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/blob/0f28b61de90ce8a09d75bf1668ef3f1c200f9c52/clojure-mode.el#L560
23:49	clojurebot	I forgot that slime-installer is http://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/blob/0f28b61de90ce8a09d75bf1668ef3f1c200f9c52/clojure-mode.el#L560
23:49	technomancy	seancorfield: on the elisp side all you need is clojure-mode; just one file.
23:50	brehaut	technomancy disappears for an hour and #clojure becomes #emacs-cargo-cult
23:50	semperos	lol
23:51	semperos	I second mintsoup's suggestion to just follow the instructions here, if the rest is getting too complex: https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure
23:51	sean_corfield	technomancy: so i followed the instructions as best i could from your starter-kit
23:51	technomancy	brehaut: did cemerick start a trend? =)
23:51	sean_corfield	it wasn't clear that i needed to ALSO install the lisp starter-kit
23:51	brehaut	lol
23:51	sean_corfield	i thought i'd installed that but...
23:51	brehaut	technomancy: i switched to emacs before it was cool :P
23:52	technomancy	sean_corfield: hm; I'll see if I can make it clearer in the readme that the separate modules are installed on their own
23:52	zerokarmaleft	huh, didn't know about clojure-enable-paredit
23:52	sean_corfield	i followed your instructions for init.el but none of that code seems to execute
23:53	sean_corfield	i added the code to set up starter-kit, starter-kit-lisp etc and it doesn't execte
23:54	technomancy	seancorfield: is it possible you have a ~/.emacs file? that takes precedence over ~/.emacs.d/init.el
23:54	sean_corfield	brehaut: i was using emacs 20 years ago... version 17 in fact... but i haven't touched it for nearly 20 years
23:54	sean_corfield	(and now i remember why! :) )
23:54	brehaut	sean_corfield: lets be honest, emacs has never been cool ;)
23:54	brehaut	so technically we are all using it before it was cool
23:55	sean_corfield	no, i have no .emacs file
23:55	sean_corfield	just .emacs.d/init.el
23:55	daaku	is there an easy way to map over the values in a map while maintaing the keys? i'm already at (apply hash-map (flatten (map.. and it doesn't seem right
23:56	brehaut	(into {} (map … )
23:56	brehaut	)
23:57	daaku	brehaut: ah, perfect
23:57	daaku	thanks
23:57	technomancy	sean_corfield: you can just do M-x package-install starter-kit-lisp
23:58	sean_corfield	let me try that...
23:58	sean_corfield	ok, it complained that already exists...
23:58	spoon16	is the appropriate way to take from the front of a stinrg (apply str (take 3 "abcdefg"))?
23:59	brehaut	,(.substring "abcdefg" 0 3)
23:59	clojurebot	"abc"
23:59	brehaut	or (subs "abcdefg" 0 3)