#clojure – 2011-03-09

2011-03-09

00:00	waxrose	Yeah
00:00	waxrose	Yeah
00:08	waxrose	I'm still going to check out this lisp/bf interpreter just for fun.
00:08	waxrose	I'm still going to check out this lisp/bf interpreter just for fun.
02:05	amalloy	TimMc: oh hey, you go to the same school as ben englert, apparently
02:05	amalloy	TimMc: oh hey, you go to the same school as ben englert, apparently
02:06	amalloy	friend of mine; he did a summer internship at my previous company
02:06	amalloy	friend of mine; he did a summer internship at my previous company
02:36	amalloy	does anyone have a dsl/library for state machines? i started writing what turned out to be a pushdown automaton, and i'd like to either use an existing one or put together a generic one of my own for release
02:36	amalloy	does anyone have a dsl/library for state machines? i started writing what turned out to be a pushdown automaton, and i'd like to either use an existing one or put together a generic one of my own for release
02:41	amalloy	it also seems like fnparse "ought" to be usable as a state machine but i can't figure out how to squish the two mental-models together
02:41	amalloy	it also seems like fnparse "ought" to be usable as a state machine but i can't figure out how to squish the two mental-models together
02:48	hiredman	amalloy: I generally use letfn + trampoline
02:48	hiredman	amalloy: I generally use letfn + trampoline
02:52	amalloy	hiredman: cute
02:52	amalloy	hiredman: cute
02:54	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/chinese-democracy/blob/master/src/chinese/democracy.clj#L28
02:54	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/chinese-democracy/blob/master/src/chinese/democracy.clj#L28
02:57	amalloy	sounds perfect for finite-state; seems like it will involve more low-level fiddling than i'd like for maintaining unbounded state like a stack
02:57	amalloy	sounds perfect for finite-state; seems like it will involve more low-level fiddling than i'd like for maintaining unbounded state like a stack
03:03	amalloy	i guess it's hard to get much shorter than #(next-state current-stack), #(next-state (conj current-stack new-value)), and #(next-state (pop current-stack))
03:03	amalloy	i guess it's hard to get much shorter than #(next-state current-stack), #(next-state (conj current-stack new-value)), and #(next-state (pop current-stack))
03:35	angerman	is there a command to clear the clojure repl in emacs?
03:35	angerman	is there a command to clear the clojure repl in emacs?
03:39	amalloy	angerman: clear it how?
03:39	amalloy	angerman: clear it how?
03:40	longfin	angerman: if you use slime, m-x slime-clear-buffer
03:40	longfin	angerman: if you use slime, m-x slime-clear-buffer
03:40	longfin	sorry m-x slime-repl-clear-buffer
03:40	longfin	sorry m-x slime-repl-clear-buffer
03:41	angerman	longfin: thanks!
03:41	angerman	longfin: thanks!
03:41	amalloy	angerman: C-c M-o does the same thing
03:41	amalloy	angerman: C-c M-o does the same thing
03:41	amalloy	as long as what you want is to clear the screen rather than "restart" the repl from a clean state; your use of clear was, aha, unclear to me
03:41	amalloy	as long as what you want is to clear the screen rather than "restart" the repl from a clean state; your use of clear was, aha, unclear to me
03:42	angerman	amalloy: well is there a way to restart the repl without restarting the whole process?
03:42	angerman	amalloy: well is there a way to restart the repl without restarting the whole process?
03:42	amalloy	not as far as i'm aware
03:42	amalloy	not as far as i'm aware
03:44	longfin	m-x slime-list-connections to display connection list,
03:44	longfin	m-x slime-list-connections to display connection list,
03:45	amalloy	yeah, i just found that myself, under C-c C-x c
03:45	amalloy	yeah, i just found that myself, under C-c C-x c
03:45	longfin	then m-x slime-quit-connection-at-point..
03:45	longfin	then m-x slime-quit-connection-at-point..
03:45	amalloy	longfin: that won't do anything because the swank server for that connection will still have all the same vars bound
03:45	amalloy	longfin: that won't do anything because the swank server for that connection will still have all the same vars bound
03:46	longfin	uhm, you're right.
03:46	longfin	uhm, you're right.
03:47	amalloy	i need to get the hang of having more than one connection open; it's really a pain for me to work on more than one thing at a time currently :P
03:47	amalloy	i need to get the hang of having more than one connection open; it's really a pain for me to work on more than one thing at a time currently :P
04:03	raek	angerman: it is often possible to repair the "damage"
04:03	raek	angerman: it is often possible to repair the "damage"
04:04	raek	for example by using ns-unmap and remove-ns
04:04	raek	for example by using ns-unmap and remove-ns
04:12	krumholt	hello. will reset! block until the atom has changed? and is it possible that the order of evaluation will get changed if i do (reset! ...) @done and "done" is a promise i am waiting on?
04:12	krumholt	hello. will reset! block until the atom has changed? and is it possible that the order of evaluation will get changed if i do (reset! ...) @done and "done" is a promise i am waiting on?
04:13	hiredman	atoms are synchronous
04:13	hiredman	atoms are synchronous
04:15	raek	krumholt: when reset! returns, the change is done
04:15	raek	krumholt: when reset! returns, the change is done
04:16	raek	but the attempt to reset the atom may have been repeated
04:16	raek	but the attempt to reset the atom may have been repeated
04:16	krumholt	ok thanks maybe there is my problem
04:16	krumholt	ok thanks maybe there is my problem
04:17	raek	hrm
04:17	raek	hrm
04:17	raek	maybe reset! does not "repeat" after all
04:17	raek	maybe reset! does not "repeat" after all
04:18	raek	reset! results in a call to .set on an AtomicReference
04:18	raek	reset! results in a call to .set on an AtomicReference
04:19	raek	and there is no loop in the source code
04:19	raek	and there is no loop in the source code
04:19	krumholt	ok
04:19	krumholt	ok
04:19	raek	anyway, reset! is a function, so the argument you send it is only evaluated once
04:19	raek	anyway, reset! is a function, so the argument you send it is only evaluated once
04:20	raek	swap! simply invokes the function you pass it one or more times (still following the usual order of evaluation)
04:20	raek	swap! simply invokes the function you pass it one or more times (still following the usual order of evaluation)
04:54	angerman	hmm. (prn [a b]) ;; => Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer
04:54	angerman	hmm. (prn [a b]) ;; => Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer
04:54	angerman	?!
04:54	angerman	?!
04:55	raek	,(let [a 1, b 2] (prn [a b]))
04:55	raek	,(let [a 1, b 2] (prn [a b]))
04:55	clojurebot	[1 2]
04:55	clojurebot	[1 2]
04:56	angerman	reak. right now it makes no sense at all to me :/
04:56	angerman	reak. right now it makes no sense at all to me :/
04:56	raek	,(let [[x y] 1] nil)
04:56	raek	,(let [[x y] 1] nil)
04:56	clojurebot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Integer
04:56	clojurebot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Integer
04:56	angerman	ahh. i'm getting a nil...
04:56	angerman	ahh. i'm getting a nil...
04:56	raek	angerman: are you really sure that the exception originates from that code?
04:56	raek	angerman: are you really sure that the exception originates from that code?
04:57	angerman	reak, yes, that's what the stacktrace sais.
04:57	angerman	reak, yes, that's what the stacktrace sais.
04:57	raek	,(map inc 1)
04:57	raek	,(map inc 1)
04:57	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer
04:57	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer
04:57	clgv	,(1 [a b])
04:57	clgv	,(1 [a b])
04:57	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context
04:57	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context
04:58	clgv	,(1 [2 4])
04:58	clgv	,(1 [2 4])
04:58	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
04:58	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
04:58	raek	the exception says that you are trying to feed an integer into a function that takes a seq
04:58	raek	the exception says that you are trying to feed an integer into a function that takes a seq
04:58	clgv	oh ok thats different
04:58	clgv	oh ok thats different
05:01	angerman	jikes.
05:01	angerman	jikes.
05:01	angerman	apply is mean
05:01	angerman	apply is mean
05:01	__name__	good morning.
05:01	__name__	good morning.
05:01	angerman	hard to track down :/
05:01	angerman	hard to track down :/
05:02	angerman	__name__: you ment to enter #python?
05:02	angerman	__name__: you ment to enter #python?
05:02	angerman	;D
05:02	angerman	;D
05:02	waxrose	:P
05:02	waxrose	:P
05:02	__name__	angerman: I do use Python, yes.
05:02	__name__	angerman: I do use Python, yes.
05:37	bartj	, (merge-with + ([:c 5] [:b 2] [:c 3]))
05:37	bartj	, (merge-with + ([:c 5] [:b 2] [:c 3]))
05:37	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: PersistentVector
05:37	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: PersistentVector
05:37	bartj	, (merge-with + '([:c 5] [:b 2] [:c 3]))
05:37	bartj	, (merge-with + '([:c 5] [:b 2] [:c 3]))
05:37	clojurebot	([:c 5] [:b 2] [:c 3])
05:37	clojurebot	([:c 5] [:b 2] [:c 3])
05:37	bartj	why doesn't it give ([:c 8] [:b 2])
05:37	bartj	why doesn't it give ([:c 8] [:b 2])
05:42	__name__	, (merge-with + ([:c 5] [:b 2] [:c 3]))
05:42	__name__	, (merge-with + ([:c 5] [:b 2] [:c 3]))
05:42	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: PersistentVector
05:42	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: PersistentVector
05:46	Chousuke	you need maps, not vectors. :/
05:46	Chousuke	you need maps, not vectors. :/
06:22	angerman	Catmull Clark and Doo Sabin subdivision with Clojure and jReality: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/281539/jReality-SubD-CC-and-DS-small.mov
06:22	angerman	Catmull Clark and Doo Sabin subdivision with Clojure and jReality: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/281539/jReality-SubD-CC-and-DS-small.mov
06:47	pyr	is there any standard document for coding style in lisp (or clojure)
06:47	pyr	is there any standard document for coding style in lisp (or clojure)
06:48	pyr	i use 2 space indent and let vim do the work mostly but wouldn't want to derive from an existing standard too much if there is such a thing
06:48	pyr	i use 2 space indent and let vim do the work mostly but wouldn't want to derive from an existing standard too much if there is such a thing
06:50	Bronsa	pyr: try this http://ddm.ace.ed.ac.uk/staff/michael/class/moz/cm/doc/contrib/lispstyle.html
06:50	Bronsa	pyr: try this http://ddm.ace.ed.ac.uk/staff/michael/class/moz/cm/doc/contrib/lispstyle.html
06:50	pyr	Bronsa: thanks
06:50	pyr	Bronsa: thanks
06:54	Dranik	hi all!
06:54	Dranik	hi all!
07:04	pyrtsa	whois pyr
07:04	pyrtsa	whois pyr
07:04	pyrtsa	X)
07:04	pyrtsa	X)
07:13	fliebel	morning
07:13	fliebel	morning
07:21	kilo	trying to install counterclockwise, eclipse says "the repository seems to be empty" - am using tutorial listed in the googlecode page of counterclockwise - http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Eclipse_and_Counterclockwise
07:21	kilo	trying to install counterclockwise, eclipse says "the repository seems to be empty" - am using tutorial listed in the googlecode page of counterclockwise - http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Eclipse_and_Counterclockwise
07:21	kilo	can anyone help ?
07:21	kilo	can anyone help ?
07:22	octe	is there a convienence function for making a java.util.List from a seq?
07:22	octe	is there a convienence function for making a java.util.List from a seq?
07:23	clgv	kilo: I installed mine from that location: http://updatesite.counterclockwise.googlecode.com/hg/
07:23	clgv	kilo: I installed mine from that location: http://updatesite.counterclockwise.googlecode.com/hg/
07:24	kilo	clgv: am i doing it right - help-software updates-available software - add site - put the url - ?
07:24	kilo	clgv: am i doing it right - help-software updates-available software - add site - put the url - ?
07:25	clgv	kilo: yeah. that's what I did
07:25	clgv	kilo: yeah. that's what I did
07:25	kilo	i get " No repository found at http://updatesite.counterclockwise.googlecode.com/hg/"
07:25	kilo	i get " No repository found at http://updatesite.counterclockwise.googlecode.com/hg/"
07:25	clgv	I have Eclipse 3.6.1 here
07:25	clgv	I have Eclipse 3.6.1 here
07:26	kilo	woops
07:26	kilo	woops
07:26	clgv	Help > Install New Software, I used "Add..." to add the url above
07:26	clgv	Help > Install New Software, I used "Add..." to add the url above
07:27	kilo	i'm on 3.4
07:27	kilo	i'm on 3.4
07:30	clgv	kilo: I can't tell if that might be a problem...
07:30	clgv	kilo: I can't tell if that might be a problem...
07:31	kilo	k
07:31	kilo	k
07:32	clgv	I just did a search for updates and it didnt report any failure
07:32	clgv	I just did a search for updates and it didnt report any failure
07:36	octe	,(sort (comparator (fn [x y] (- y x))) '(1 9 5 2 3))
07:36	octe	,(sort (comparator (fn [x y] (- y x))) '(1 9 5 2 3))
07:36	clojurebot	(1 9 5 2 3)
07:36	clojurebot	(1 9 5 2 3)
07:36	octe	should'nt that work?
07:36	octe	should'nt that work?
07:36	octe	hm
07:36	octe	hm
07:41	morphling	octe: comparator makes a comparator from a predicate
07:41	morphling	octe: comparator makes a comparator from a predicate
07:42	TimMc	amalloy_: Thanks for mentioning partially-ordered sets -- I found c.c.graph, which has a function to do something like a topo sort.
07:42	TimMc	amalloy_: Thanks for mentioning partially-ordered sets -- I found c.c.graph, which has a function to do something like a topo sort.
07:42	spewn	,(sort (comparator <) '(1 9 5 2 3))
07:42	spewn	,(sort (comparator <) '(1 9 5 2 3))
07:42	clojurebot	(1 2 3 5 9)
07:42	clojurebot	(1 2 3 5 9)
07:43	octe	ah
07:43	octe	ah
07:43	spewn	Why is there need to use a Comparator object, rather than just using the predicate directly?
07:43	spewn	Why is there need to use a Comparator object, rather than just using the predicate directly?
07:43	octe	actually, what i want to sort is a seq of java objects which have a date field
07:43	octe	actually, what i want to sort is a seq of java objects which have a date field
07:44	octe	and i want it sorted reverse chronological
07:44	octe	and i want it sorted reverse chronological
07:45	clgv	that works well: ##(sort (fn [x y] (- y x)) '(1 9 5 2 3))
07:45	clgv	that works well: ##(sort (fn [x y] (- y x)) '(1 9 5 2 3))
07:45	sexpbot	⟹ (9 5 3 2 1)
07:45	sexpbot	⟹ (9 5 3 2 1)
07:46	octe	thanks
07:46	octe	thanks
07:49	spewn	&(doc sort)
07:49	spewn	&(doc sort)
07:49	sexpbot	⟹ "([coll] [comp coll]); Returns a sorted sequence of the items in coll. If no comparator is supplied, uses compare. comparator must implement java.util.Comparator."
07:49	sexpbot	⟹ "([coll] [comp coll]); Returns a sorted sequence of the items in coll. If no comparator is supplied, uses compare. comparator must implement java.util.Comparator."
07:49	spewn	clgv: So why does that work?
07:49	spewn	clgv: So why does that work?
07:50	TimMc	,(sort < '(1 9 5 2 3))
07:50	TimMc	,(sort < '(1 9 5 2 3))
07:50	clojurebot	(1 2 3 5 9)
07:50	clojurebot	(1 2 3 5 9)
07:50	clgv	spewn: I guess since it probably uses the comparator semantic internally. but to be sure you'd have to look at the source
07:50	clgv	spewn: I guess since it probably uses the comparator semantic internally. but to be sure you'd have to look at the source
07:51	clgv	$source sort
07:51	clgv	$source sort
07:51	sexpbot	sort is http://is.gd/EUo3np
07:51	sexpbot	sort is http://is.gd/EUo3np
07:52	Chousuke	IFn or AFn implements Comparator I think
07:52	Chousuke	IFn or AFn implements Comparator I think
07:52	spewn	Interesting... ##(.compare > 5 6)
07:52	spewn	Interesting... ##(.compare > 5 6)
07:52	sexpbot	⟹ 1
07:52	sexpbot	⟹ 1
07:52	spewn	Chousuke: That it does.
07:52	spewn	Chousuke: That it does.
07:56	powrtoc	Is there a problem AOTing records in clojure 1.2, if the namespace holding the record has a - in it??
07:56	powrtoc	Is there a problem AOTing records in clojure 1.2, if the namespace holding the record has a - in it??
07:58	powrtoc	I have a record in a namespace called foo-bar.baz (in directory foo_bar.baz), but when I AOT the record gets compiled to foo.Record rather than foo_bar.baz.Record
07:58	powrtoc	I have a record in a namespace called foo-bar.baz (in directory foo_bar.baz), but when I AOT the record gets compiled to foo.Record rather than foo_bar.baz.Record
07:59	clgv	powrtoc: the "-" is ok afaik but the "." could be a problem
07:59	clgv	powrtoc: the "-" is ok afaik but the "." could be a problem
08:00	powrtoc	cigv: really? how come?
08:00	powrtoc	cigv: really? how come?
08:00	powrtoc	java packages are traditionally . seperated, as are clojure namespaces
08:00	powrtoc	java packages are traditionally . seperated, as are clojure namespaces
08:01	clgv	oh right. but the directory should be "foor_bar/baz" then, I think
08:01	clgv	oh right. but the directory should be "foor_bar/baz" then, I think
08:01	clgv	s/foor/foo/
08:01	sexpbot	<clgv> oh right. but the directory should be "foo_bar/baz" then, I think
08:01	clgv	s/foor/foo/
08:01	sexpbot	<clgv> oh right. but the directory should be "foo_bar/baz" then, I think
08:02	powrtoc	clgv, That's what it is
08:02	powrtoc	clgv, That's what it is
08:02	clgv	ok, then misread you
08:02	clgv	ok, then misread you
08:02	powrtoc	oh sorry... my mistake, I mistyped it
08:02	powrtoc	oh sorry... my mistake, I mistyped it
08:02	powrtoc	the directories and namespace names are correct AFAIK
08:02	powrtoc	the directories and namespace names are correct AFAIK
08:03	powrtoc	where baz is a file (not a directory)
08:03	powrtoc	where baz is a file (not a directory)
08:03	powrtoc	s/baz/baz.clj/
08:03	powrtoc	s/baz/baz.clj/
08:03	sexpbot	<powrtoc> where baz.clj is a file (not a directory)
08:03	sexpbot	<powrtoc> where baz.clj is a file (not a directory)
08:04	powrtoc	and baz.clj defines my record Bleh ...
08:04	powrtoc	and baz.clj defines my record Bleh ...
08:05	powrtoc	but AOTing the namespace results in a class file identified by foo.Bleh rather than foo_bar.baz.Bleh (or foo-bar.baz.Bleh)
08:05	powrtoc	but AOTing the namespace results in a class file identified by foo.Bleh rather than foo_bar.baz.Bleh (or foo-bar.baz.Bleh)
08:05	clgv	powrtoc: I just checked my project, but I don't have records in this kind of namespace names.
08:05	clgv	powrtoc: I just checked my project, but I don't have records in this kind of namespace names.
08:05	powrtoc	I'm pretty confused
08:05	powrtoc	I'm pretty confused
08:10	clgv	did you try without "-" just to check if it's really the cause?
08:10	clgv	did you try without "-" just to check if it's really the cause?
08:10	powrtoc	no just trying that now
08:10	powrtoc	no just trying that now
08:10	powrtoc	it's just a PITA to rename namespaces in my project just now
08:10	powrtoc	it's just a PITA to rename namespaces in my project just now
08:11	clgv	you could make a dummy project therefor ;)
08:11	clgv	you could make a dummy project therefor ;)
08:11	powrtoc	I am :-) as we speak
08:11	powrtoc	I am :-) as we speak
08:12	Cozey	Hello. So the way to use clojure-contrib 1.3.0 alpha is to use specific clojure contrib modules in :dependencies ?
08:12	Cozey	Hello. So the way to use clojure-contrib 1.3.0 alpha is to use specific clojure contrib modules in :dependencies ?
08:20	raek	Cozey: yes
08:20	raek	Cozey: yes
08:20	Cozey	so i should build it from git and then mvn install-file them all?
08:20	Cozey	so i should build it from git and then mvn install-file them all?
08:21	raek	Cozey: no, there are SNAPSHOT versions available
08:21	raek	Cozey: no, there are SNAPSHOT versions available
08:21	Cozey	uhm? in what repository?
08:21	Cozey	uhm? in what repository?
08:21	raek	well, you can compile it yourself, but the build server has probably already done it
08:21	raek	well, you can compile it yourself, but the build server has probably already done it
08:21	raek	the usual clojure one (leiningen uses it by default)
08:21	raek	the usual clojure one (leiningen uses it by default)
08:22	raek	http://build.clojure.org/snapshots/org/clojure/contrib/
08:22	raek	http://build.clojure.org/snapshots/org/clojure/contrib/
08:22	powrtoc	ok, I can't get records to AOT properly in hyphenated namespaces at all
08:22	powrtoc	ok, I can't get records to AOT properly in hyphenated namespaces at all
08:22	raek	for instance: [org.clojure.contrib/sql "1.3.0-SNAPSHOT"]
08:22	raek	for instance: [org.clojure.contrib/sql "1.3.0-SNAPSHOT"]
08:23	Cozey	raek: thanks! that's what i needed
08:23	Cozey	raek: thanks! that's what i needed
08:23	powrtoc	just tried with two projects... one with a record in a namespace records.core, the other in a namespace called hyphenated-records.core ... both records are called Foo... in the hyphenated case I can never find a classfile on disk... I'm using leiningen to generate the projects
08:23	powrtoc	just tried with two projects... one with a record in a namespace records.core, the other in a namespace called hyphenated-records.core ... both records are called Foo... in the hyphenated case I can never find a classfile on disk... I'm using leiningen to generate the projects
08:24	powrtoc	the unhyphenated case works as expected
08:24	powrtoc	the unhyphenated case works as expected
08:25	clgv	so you should file a bug report on this.
08:25	clgv	so you should file a bug report on this.
08:36	tsdh	Hi. Can anyone tell me why my macro does only work in its own namespace? http://pastebin.com/p84cmExr
08:36	tsdh	Hi. Can anyone tell me why my macro does only work in its own namespace? http://pastebin.com/p84cmExr
08:38	raek	tsdh: where is schema-elems defined?
08:38	raek	tsdh: where is schema-elems defined?
08:39	tsdh	In the namespace of the macro, which is funql.core.
08:39	tsdh	In the namespace of the macro, which is funql.core.
08:40	raek	what happens if you eval funql.core/schema-elems in that namespace?
08:40	raek	what happens if you eval funql.core/schema-elems in that namespace?
08:40	powrtoc	yup
08:40	powrtoc	yup
08:41	raek	to me it looks like the macro does what it should, but that the var is somehow missing from funql.core
08:41	raek	to me it looks like the macro does what it should, but that the var is somehow missing from funql.core
08:42	tsdh	raek: In both namespaces funql.core and funql.test.core it evals to the empty map. But why do I get the error when evaling the macro in funql.test.core?
08:42	tsdh	raek: In both namespaces funql.core and funql.test.core it evals to the empty map. But why do I get the error when evaling the macro in funql.test.core?
08:42	raek	(the paste did not contain its def, so that's why I asked about it)
08:42	raek	(the paste did not contain its def, so that's why I asked about it)
08:43	raek	strange
08:43	raek	strange
08:43	raek	and funql.core is used/required in funql.test.core?
08:43	raek	and funql.core is used/required in funql.test.core?
08:44	tsdh	Yeah, :use with :reload.
08:44	tsdh	Yeah, :use with :reload.
08:45	tsdh	(ns funql.test.core (:use [funql.core] :reload) ...)
08:45	tsdh	(ns funql.test.core (:use [funql.core] :reload) ...)
08:48	raek	I cant's see anything in the paste that looks wring
08:48	raek	I cant's see anything in the paste that looks wring
08:48	raek	*wrong
08:48	raek	*wrong
08:49	raek	tsdh: could you post the files as they are?
08:49	raek	tsdh: could you post the files as they are?
08:49	tsdh	raek: Do you have mercurial, then you can clone the project?
08:49	tsdh	raek: Do you have mercurial, then you can clone the project?
08:51	raek	sure
08:51	raek	sure
08:51	raek	I just wanted to see the ns forms, the place where the macro is used and the place where the "missing" var is defined
08:51	raek	I just wanted to see the ns forms, the place where the macro is used and the place where the "missing" var is defined
08:52	clgv	is there already implemented a function that checks whether a list of sets is pairwise disjoint?
08:52	clgv	is there already implemented a function that checks whether a list of sets is pairwise disjoint?
08:52	tsdh	raek: https://anonymous:secret@hg.uni-koblenz.de/horn/funql
08:52	tsdh	raek: https://anonymous:secret@hg.uni-koblenz.de/horn/funql
08:53	clgv	tsdh: lol. very strong password ;)
08:53	clgv	tsdh: lol. very strong password ;)
08:54	tsdh	clgv: Any password for anonymous is strong, isn't it?
08:54	tsdh	clgv: Any password for anonymous is strong, isn't it?
08:54	clgv	tsdh: it's only funny to read^^
08:54	clgv	tsdh: it's only funny to read^^
08:55	tsdh	raek: Now that is strange! I restarted swank, then compiled the code file, then the test file using C-c C-k in emacs/slime, and it worked. But any additional compile fails with the error.
08:55	tsdh	raek: Now that is strange! I restarted swank, then compiled the code file, then the test file using C-c C-k in emacs/slime, and it worked. But any additional compile fails with the error.
08:55	tsdh	raek: And "lein test" also fails with that error.
08:55	tsdh	raek: And "lein test" also fails with that error.
08:56	raek	tsdh: also, I don't think you should have :reload in there
08:56	raek	tsdh: also, I don't think you should have :reload in there
08:56	raek	but I don't see why it should matter for this
08:56	raek	but I don't see why it should matter for this
08:57	tsdh	raek: I used what lein new gave me. I'm clojure newbie. ;-)
08:57	tsdh	raek: I used what lein new gave me. I'm clojure newbie. ;-)
08:57	raek	hrm, maybe it was :reload-all that was throwned upon...
08:57	raek	hrm, maybe it was :reload-all that was throwned upon...
09:00	raek	tsdh: schema-elems is not defined anywhere in funql.core
09:00	raek	tsdh: schema-elems is not defined anywhere in funql.core
09:00	raek	so there's your problem
09:00	raek	so there's your problem
09:00	raek	binding only dynamically rebinds the value of an existing var
09:00	raek	binding only dynamically rebinds the value of an existing var
09:01	tsdh	Ahhrg! It's of course schema-imports!! :-)
09:01	tsdh	Ahhrg! It's of course schema-imports!! :-)
09:01	tsdh	OMG
09:01	tsdh	OMG
09:01	raek	also note that in your macro, the value of schema-imports (in the assoc) is read at macroexpand time
09:01	raek	also note that in your macro, the value of schema-imports (in the assoc) is read at macroexpand time
09:02	raek	so schema-imports needs to be rebound when the macro is expanded
09:02	raek	so schema-imports needs to be rebound when the macro is expanded
09:03	raek	like (binding [schema-imports {:foo "bar"}] (defn with-schema-imports [...] ...))
09:03	raek	like (binding [schema-imports {:foo "bar"}] (defn with-schema-imports [...] ...))
09:03	raek	...which looks very weird
09:03	raek	...which looks very weird
09:03	tsdh	raek: Hm, that's a good point, at least if one wants to use the macro in a nested fashon..
09:03	tsdh	raek: Hm, that's a good point, at least if one wants to use the macro in a nested fashon..
09:04	raek	I don't know what the code does, but binding is a runtime construct
09:04	raek	I don't know what the code does, but binding is a runtime construct
09:04	raek	in a macro, you might even get away with using a let surrounding the syntax-quoted expression in some times
09:04	raek	in a macro, you might even get away with using a let surrounding the syntax-quoted expression in some times
09:06	tsdh	raek: Wouldn't it be possible to let the macro expand to a (assoc schema-imports key val key2 val2), which is then evaluated first at runtime.
09:06	tsdh	raek: Wouldn't it be possible to let the macro expand to a (assoc schema-imports key val key2 val2), which is then evaluated first at runtime.
09:06	raek	yes
09:06	raek	yes
09:07	raek	but since you used the value in the macro, I got the impression that you had the required information at macroexpansion time
09:07	raek	but since you used the value in the macro, I got the impression that you had the required information at macroexpansion time
09:07	raek	and if so, there's no reason to "delay" it to runtime
09:07	raek	and if so, there's no reason to "delay" it to runtime
09:09	raek	but I don't know what the code does and how
09:09	raek	but I don't know what the code does and how
09:10	raek	i.e. I don't know what I am talking about and you should take any advice with a grain/metric tonne of salt
09:10	raek	i.e. I don't know what I am talking about and you should take any advice with a grain/metric tonne of salt
09:12	tsdh	raek: No, you are totally correct. When using the macro in nested fashon, the inner would completely erase the outer binding, which is not what I want. Committed and pushed a better variant.
09:12	tsdh	raek: No, you are totally correct. When using the macro in nested fashon, the inner would completely erase the outer binding, which is not what I want. Committed and pushed a better variant.
09:18	anonymouse89	is there a way to decompose maps on keyword?
09:18	anonymouse89	is there a way to decompose maps on keyword?
09:19	anonymouse89	(or key, rather)
09:19	anonymouse89	(or key, rather)
09:20	raek	anonymouse89: what do you mean by decompose? destructuring?
09:20	raek	anonymouse89: what do you mean by decompose? destructuring?
09:20	AWizzArd	anonymouse89: {:keys [a b c]}
09:20	AWizzArd	anonymouse89: {:keys [a b c]}
09:20	pjstadig	,(map (fn [[k v]] (str "this is the key" k "this is the value v")) {:a :b :c :d})
09:20	pjstadig	,(map (fn [[k v]] (str "this is the key" k "this is the value v")) {:a :b :c :d})
09:20	clojurebot	("this is the key:athis is the value v" "this is the key:cthis is the value v")
09:20	clojurebot	("this is the key:athis is the value v" "this is the key:cthis is the value v")
09:20	AWizzArd	,(let [{:keys [a b c]} {:a 10, :c 30}] (prn a b c))
09:20	AWizzArd	,(let [{:keys [a b c]} {:a 10, :c 30}] (prn a b c))
09:20	clojurebot	10 nil 30
09:20	clojurebot	10 nil 30
09:21	pjstadig	,(map (fn [[k v]] (str "this is the key " k " this is the value " v)) {:a :b :c :d})
09:21	pjstadig	,(map (fn [[k v]] (str "this is the key " k " this is the value " v)) {:a :b :c :d})
09:21	clojurebot	("this is the key :a this is the value :b" "this is the key :c this is the value :d")
09:21	clojurebot	("this is the key :a this is the value :b" "this is the key :c this is the value :d")
09:21	anonymouse89	raek: right, destructuring
09:21	anonymouse89	raek: right, destructuring
09:21	anonymouse89	I know about kwargs for fn's. I'm trying to destructure in a let statement
09:21	anonymouse89	I know about kwargs for fn's. I'm trying to destructure in a let statement
09:22	anonymouse89	like (let [[:a :b] {:a 1 :b 2}] (println a b))
09:22	anonymouse89	like (let [[:a :b] {:a 1 :b 2}] (println a b))
09:22	anonymouse89	(not valid of course)
09:22	anonymouse89	(not valid of course)
09:23	raek	,(let [{:keys [a b]} {:a 1, :b 2}] (format "a=%d, b=%d" a b))
09:23	raek	,(let [{:keys [a b]} {:a 1, :b 2}] (format "a=%d, b=%d" a b))
09:23	clojurebot	"a=1, b=2"
09:23	clojurebot	"a=1, b=2"
09:23	pjstadig	yeah just do what AWizzArd said
09:23	pjstadig	yeah just do what AWizzArd said
09:23	anonymouse89	okay, sorry for being silly. Thanks everyone!
09:23	anonymouse89	okay, sorry for being silly. Thanks everyone!
09:23	raek	{:keys [a b]} is sugar for {a :a, b :b} (note the order of keywords and symbols)
09:23	raek	{:keys [a b]} is sugar for {a :a, b :b} (note the order of keywords and symbols)
09:24	anonymouse89	raek: that makes much more sense now
09:24	anonymouse89	raek: that makes much more sense now
09:24	anonymouse89	raek: I thought it was magic
09:24	anonymouse89	raek: I thought it was magic
09:24	raek	there's 'strs' and 'syms' also, when the variables should have the same name as a strings or symbols
09:24	raek	there's 'strs' and 'syms' also, when the variables should have the same name as a strings or symbols
09:25	raek	keywords are indeed the far most common useage, but clojure can have nay object as a key (and you can destructure with any object too)
09:25	raek	keywords are indeed the far most common useage, but clojure can have nay object as a key (and you can destructure with any object too)
09:26	raek	,(let [{a System/out} {System/out 1}] a)
09:26	raek	,(let [{a System/out} {System/out 1}] a)
09:26	clojurebot	1
09:26	clojurebot	1
09:30	semperos	just curious, does anyone here have cake working on Windows 7? I've made multiple attempts over time and have yet to be successful
09:30	semperos	just curious, does anyone here have cake working on Windows 7? I've made multiple attempts over time and have yet to be successful
09:36	fliebel	raek: Any news on thiudinassus?
09:36	fliebel	raek: Any news on thiudinassus?
09:40	raek	fliebel: unfortunately not...
09:40	raek	fliebel: unfortunately not...
09:41	fliebel	raek: So still phase one, is it?
09:41	fliebel	raek: So still phase one, is it?
09:44	raek	yeah :)
09:44	raek	yeah :)
09:44	fliebel	(I just noticed your assoc-once might update all keys up to the first one that fails)
09:44	fliebel	(I just noticed your assoc-once might update all keys up to the first one that fails)
09:46	raek	but that intermediate map is never returned?
09:46	raek	but that intermediate map is never returned?
09:46	fliebel	uh, right...
09:46	fliebel	uh, right...
09:54	fliebel	raek: Why are you using robert.hooke?
09:54	fliebel	raek: Why are you using robert.hooke?
10:11	powrtoc	hmm.. I'm getting weird NoClassDefFound errors with proxy ... yet reevaluating things work
10:11	powrtoc	any ideas?
10:21	clgv	fliebel: do you know how to use robert.hook/append?
10:24	Cozey	I cannot run hiccup with clojure-contrib 1.3.0 - the as-str was moved from clojure.contrib.java-utils.. anybody?
10:27	Cozey	oh it was replaced with name
10:33	appamatto	Howdy. I'm confused about the apparent contradiction between immutability and having access to Java objects (which are mutable)
10:34	appamatto	Are Java objects viewed with suspicion in Clojure code?
10:34	raek	mutable ones, I guess so
10:35	chouser	I would say "handled with care" rather than "viewed with suspicion", but yes.
10:35	appamatto	hmm
10:35	appamatto	What techniques are available to handle them with care?
10:36	chouser	Fortunately they're handled with care in the Java world as well, so there are a fair number of immutable objects available
10:36	appamatto	I see. So the idiom is to use immutable Java objects as much as possible?
10:36	appamatto	(as opposed to mutable ones)
10:36	angerman	how do I upcase a character?
10:36	chouser	yes. And when not possible, there are some things you can do.
10:37	chouser	you can close over the mutable object so the only access to it is through your own functions
10:37	appamatto	Hmm, do you then do locking on it or some other synchronization?
10:38	powrtoc	Does anyone know why a call to proxy might generate a NoClassDefFoundError... the classpath looks correct
10:38	chouser	appamatto: sure
10:38	chouser	appamatto: or use an agent to serialize access (when pods are ready, they'll help here)
10:42	appamatto	chouser, thanks for explaining
10:47	powrtoc	is it possible just to AOT a record with leiningen rather than the whole namespace?
10:52	chouser	powrtoc: doubt it. you could put it in a separate namespace of course.
10:52	powrtoc	hmm probably not worth it
10:55	mefesto	Hey everyone. I'm using ring, moustache and lein-ring. I'm able to serve static files while running locally (lein ring server) but I cannot when deployed as a war file. Is there some middleware out there for this?
10:58	mefesto	Or, is there a way to let requests that do not match any of the routes defined in moustache to fall-through to the web container?
10:59	pyr	mefesto: can't you do it through the web server ?
11:00	pyr	mefesto: i usually catch files that exist on disk in nginx and serve them
11:00	pyr	mefesto: and let the rest of the requests go to the application server
11:00	mefesto	pyr: i could but isn't the purpose of using a war is that you have a single thing to deploy?
11:01	pyr	i guess
11:02	mefesto	we have a bunch of other java web apps (spring/hibernate). so there is an existing setup that i'd like to continue to use.
11:02	TimMc	I can't figure out how to use http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/graph-api.html -- how do I create a graph object?
11:03	pyr	mefesto: makes sense, can't help you with that though
11:09	krumholt_	is there a swank-clojure version that works with clojure 1.3 ?
11:11	fogus`	TimMc: Check this out: https://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/blob/ec6a7579d6b1c0bfa42e3666cfad196cffc966fe/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/datalog/softstrat.clj#L30
11:13	fliebel	clgv: Not yet, but it isn't to complicated…
11:13	clgv	fliebel: I handled it with a normal add-hook now ;)
11:15	TimMc	fogus`: THanks, I'll take a look.
11:22	krumholt_	when i try to use swank with clojure 1.3.0-master-SNAPSHOT and i do (require 'swank.swank) i get CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: swank/clj_contrib/pprint$fn__643$pretty_pr_code_STAR___644, compiling:(swank/clj_contrib/pprint.clj:34). any ideas?
11:23	AWizzArd	krumholt_: did you try the latest version from http://clojars.org/repo/swank-clojure/swank-clojure/1.3.0-SNAPSHOT/ ?
11:24	krumholt_	AWizzArd, i pulled the latest version from github and built that with lein multi jar
11:27	krumholt_	AWizzArd, I just tried and i get the same error with the jar from clojars
11:33	AWizzArd	krumholt_: then maybe your Clojure version is very fresh?
11:34	AWizzArd	Mine is just a few days old and works.
11:34	AWizzArd	krumholt_: Maybe your Contrib version is too old.
11:35	krumholt_	i have the new clojure contrib 1.3 and haven't really figured out what parts i need for swank. i think there might be the problem
11:40	zippy314	,(new String)
11:40	clojurebot	""
11:41	zippy314	,(let [q String] (new q))
11:41	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: q
11:41	zippy314	why?
11:41	clojurebot	why not?
11:43	fliebel	dnolen: I noticed you implemented the zebra problem in Logos, are there any examples of, for example, sudoku, 8 queens, family stuff, etc… ? I might want to try a few of these. Especially sudoku.
11:45	dnolen	fliebel: someone did sudoku w/ Jim Duey's version. It would be useful to write regular Clojure versions and logos.minikanren versions of those puzzles and compare expressivity and performance.
11:45	zippy314	So my question given the above is how to create a factory where the object to be created by new is variable? What's the idiomatic clojure way of doing that?
11:46	fliebel	dnolen: I will see what i can do. I'm not sure yet if I want to see the other version, or figure it out myself.
11:46	AWizzArd	zippy314: you should reach around functions that create new objects, not classes
11:47	AWizzArd	zippy314: if you just have a class c and want to create an instance of it then you will have to use reflection to find a constructor which you would like to call.
11:47	zippy314	AWizzArd: I'm not sure what you mean "reach around"
11:47	AWizzArd	,(let [c #(String.)] (c))
11:47	clojurebot	""
11:48	dnolen	fliebel: if you figure them out yourself, I'd be happy to add them to logos as examples for other people to refer to.
11:48	AWizzArd	zippy314: Well, I suppose you want to pass a class in, into some function, because your example seems to illustrate something. In a concrete program we would just write "" vs any of the other constructs, such as (let [c #(String.)] (c))
11:51	zippy314	AWizzArd: what I am working on is a factory function to which I want to pass a class name, and have it instantiate that class and a do stuff with it.
11:52	AWizzArd	zippy314: what arguments would you pass in to the constructor?
11:52	zippy314	AWizzArd: in particular the factory function adds stuff into the initialization parameters of the class, so it doesn't make sense to pass in a new instance. The whole point is that it's a "factory"!
11:53	AWizzArd	zippy314: well, a factory usually produces things of a specific concept. An apple tree produces apples. Your factory will produce what? All kinds of objects?
11:53	zippy314	AWizzArd: well, the idea is that its a factory for any number of polymorphic classes that all accept the same initialization params
11:54	AWizzArd	zippy314: if those classes are known at compile time a macro can help you to generate the factories. Otherwise you will have to do reflection.
11:55	zippy314	AWizzArd: In that example, my factory produces Trees, but it takes as a parameter Apple, Cherry, Oak, for the specific tree type, and passes in as a parameter, generic parameters liek "organic" "heirloom", etc.
11:56	zippy314	AWizzArd: hmm I see, I can use a macro.
11:57	AWizzArd	Yes, a macro which can generate #(YourClass. ^YourHint1 arg1, ^YourHint2 arg2) and even name them.
11:58	AWizzArd	A macro which runs through a loop and generates a bunch of defns for example which then instantiate your objects.
12:05	jkkramer	TimMc: there's also https://github.com/jkk/loom if you weren't aware of it
12:07	zippy314	AWizzArd: this seems to work: ,(defmacro znew [klass] `(new ~klass "fish")
12:07	angerman	jkkramer: interesting.
12:07	zippy314	,(znew String)
12:07	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: znew in this context
12:07	TimMc	jkkramer: Thanks!
12:08	AWizzArd	zippy314: Yes, this is the basic step and perhaps already perfectly fine for your purposes.
12:08	angerman	hmm… maybe I could have based my mesh system on that graph lib. ahh well.
12:09	AWizzArd	zippy314: aternatively the znew macro can accept a name too and generate a `(defn ~yourname [arg#] (new ~class arg#)) or something like that, and automatically typehint arg#, so that no reflection is needed.
12:10	dnolen	fliebel: Jim Duey's version solves Zebra in abou 550ms, logos.minikanren in about 5ms. In some basic experiments it seems like many problems that can be solved with Clojure list comprehensions or map/filter/reduce are only about 8-10X slower. I'm interested in closing that gap.
12:10	zippy314	AWizzArd: I have to read about typehints, I haven't done that yet. Thanks!
12:11	AWizzArd	zippy314: if you won't generate too many instances it is not required here. But if your znew sits in a tight loop that creates 80k objects, then you want to typehint it.
12:11	fliebel	dnolen: I am about to start the Sudoku in Logos. I haven't even started to consider how to do it in plain Clojure.
12:11	zippy314	AWizzArd: ok, got it.
12:12	fliebel	dnolen: So Logos is certainly more optimized for programmers. Now we only need to optimize for computers as well :)
12:12	dnolen	fliebel: good luck. fingers crossed you don't run into any issues w/ conde. I'm still plugging away at that, but I really need a whole free day to sort it out, so perhaps sometime this coming weekend.
12:13	fliebel	dnolen: I'm feeling the same about it. The difference is that you understand what goes wrong, and I don't :(
12:14	dnolen	fliebel: wouldn't go that far. I'm realizing there are quite a few subtleties that I don't really understand ... yet.
12:17	zippy314	Macro question: this code works:
12:17	fliebel	dnolen: Has any-o f the syntax sugar landed yet?
12:17	zippy314	(defmacro name-hash-factory
12:17	zippy314	"create a ref to a hash of named classes"
12:17	zippy314	[klass names]
12:17	zippy314	`(zipmap ~names (repeatedly (count ~names) #(new ~klass))))
12:17	zippy314	(oops)
12:17	fliebel	zippy314: ah! you crossed the three-line paste alarm!
12:17	dnolen	fliebel: do you mean did I add any-o ?
12:17	technomancy	is it too github-centric to assume people are going to want a README.md file in new projects?
12:18	zippy314	(blush)
12:18	fliebel	dnolen: No, the I meant "any of", like destructuring.
12:18	zippy314	Here it is without the comment line:
12:18	zippy314	(defmacro name-hash-factory
12:18	zippy314	[klass names]
12:18	zippy314	`(zipmap ~names (repeatedly (count ~names) #(new ~klass))))
12:18	zippy314	That was only three lines!
12:18	TimMc	zippy314: Use gists on github, preferably.
12:18	TimMc	Or don't use linebreaks.
12:18	fliebel	technomancy: The md part maybe, but readme is fine. I've seen github people use textile and plaintext as well.
12:19	dnolen	fliebel: no that's gotta wait for this conde stuff to get sorted out. Then I'll tackle the pattern matching stuff.
12:19	technomancy	fliebel: I'm just wondering since the first thing I do in every project I create is mv README README.md, and the skeletal README is in markdown anyway.
12:19	zippy314	ok. In any case that code works where the second parameter is a vector of names. If I want to collect all the remaining parameters as a vector using: &, it fails.
12:19	zippy314	I.e this doesn't work: (defmacro name-hash-factory [klass & names] `(zipmap ~names (repeatedly (count ~names) #(new ~klass))))
12:20	zippy314	why?
12:20	clojurebot	why not?
12:20	fliebel	dnolen: Okay, I was thinking it would make it really concise to express a sudoku grid.
12:20	dnolen	fliebel: yeah it would, you might want to wait until next week :)
12:20	AWizzArd	zippy314: you could try '~names
12:21	AWizzArd	(zipmap (10 20 30) [:a :b :c]) <== 10 is not a function
12:21	fliebel	dnolen: Or do both, to compare the speed and lines of code.
12:21	fliebel	zippy314: repeatedly takes a function.
12:22	AWizzArd	fliebel: he passed in a function
12:22	zippy314	AWizzArd: what does the ' do in front of the ~ ?
12:22	fliebel	AWizzArd: Oh, I'm misreading again I think :(
12:23	AWizzArd	zippy314: it quotes it, alternatively you can write (quote ~names)
12:24	AWizzArd	zippy314: when you call (name-hash-factory String "a" "b" "c") then names will be ("a" "b" "c"). And as zipmap is a function the evaluation rule will have Clojure trying to call the function "a" with the args "b" and "c"
12:24	zippy314	AWizzArd: But isn't that just (quote (unquote names)) ? Why can't you just have names?
12:24	AWizzArd	zippy314: call (macroexpand-1 '(name-hash-factory String "a" "b" "c"))
12:25	zippy314	AWizzArd: I forgot macroexpand. That helps Thanks!
12:25	AWizzArd	(count ("a" "b" "c")) ==> Exception
12:25	AWizzArd	(count '("a" "b" "c")) ==> 3
12:25	fliebel	dnolen: Can Logos express negation? As in 'x is not y'
12:26	dnolen	fliebel: someone did a Prolog in Ruby a few years ago, and at that time solving Zebra took 25000 milliseconds. logos.minikanren aims to be more usable than that.
12:26	fliebel	dnolen: Okay, I admit I have been readin abotu Prolog a bit :$
12:27	dnolen	fliebel: no, though I'll probably add disequality constraints. There are some papers on XSB that I should look into to get some ideas about how to do negation properly in Prolog.
12:28	dnolen	or a Prolog like lang rather.
12:29	fliebel	dnolen: With disequality I could revive the decimal arithmetic.
12:29	dnolen	fliebel: ah interesting. it's really just a constraint that says something can never unify w/ something else.
12:32	fliebel	dnolen: adder-o uses 1>o to really check if something is 1> by checking the first bit, but the first bit would equal 0-9 for decimal, so I need a way to say 'not 1 and not 0', or I'd end up saying 'not 2, not 3 , not 4 etc…'
12:34	dnolen	fliebel: yeah it would be something like, (=/= x 1) (=/= x 0)
12:36	dnolen	fliebel: I encourage you to dig into William Byrd's thesis at this point. It explains the whole machinery for miniKanren in 30 pages or so and it's good reading (more straightforward than TRS).
12:37	fliebel	dnolen: Does logos have underscore as an unbound value, or do I use (lvar) for that?
12:37	fliebel	dnolen: Interesting...
12:37	krumholt_	did something about def change in 1.3 ?
12:38	dnolen	fliebel: doesn't have _ as unbound, but easy to achieve with clojure.contrib.macro-utils/symbol-macrolet
12:39	dnolen	fliebel: zebra.clj in the logos project shows this.
12:39	fliebel	ah, I remember seeing that I think.
12:44	krumholt	,(clojure-version)
12:44	clojurebot	"1.2.0"
12:44	fliebel	&(clojure-version)
12:44	sexpbot	⟹ "1.2.0"
12:45	krumholt	can someone confirm that in clojure 1.3.0 the following will not create a macro (try (defmacro foo [a] `~a) 1)\
12:47	dnolen	krumholt: works fine for me. 1.3.0-alpha5
12:47	krumholt	dnolen, did you try (foo 1)
12:47	dnolen	krumholt: yup and macroexpand
12:48	dnolen	krumholt: and (meta #'foo)
12:48	dnolen	it all works.
12:48	krumholt	dnolen, i doesn't work for me
12:49	dnolen	krumholt: are you using a plain repl?
12:49	krumholt	yes
12:50	dnolen	krumholt: and alpha5 ?
12:50	krumholt	i am not sure. i just built from github
12:51	dnolen	krumholt: that's probably it.
12:55	krumholt	dnolen, i'll try it with alpha5
12:56	krumholt	dnolen, just have to built it first
12:58	krumholt	dnolen, thanks works fine in alpha5
13:00	amalloy	zippy314: for what it's worth, you don't have to name locals "klass" or "clazz" like you would in java. you can just call them class if you like
13:00	zippy314	amalloy: Thanks! I'm in the habit of that from ruby...
13:04	amalloy	clojure lets you shadow anything, even special forms (but don't shadow those; there are weird side effects)
13:04	amalloy	but class is just a regular function, not a keyword, so the issue doesn't arise
13:04	TimMc	Not to be confused with actual side effects.
13:16	waxrose	Hello every body.
13:18	amalloy	TimMc: i am always confused with actual side effects. they're just so confusing
13:20	krumholt	is there a place to read up on changes from 1.2 to 1.3? i seem to be missing the doc function :)
13:21	amalloy	octe: (fn [x y] (- y x)) is just (comp - -)
13:41	ejackson	ok fliebel, I'll fess up.... I wrote some blog posts on this some time back. Check out boss-level.com. You will find such a set of properties for sudoku there :)
13:43	fliebel	ejackson: hmmm, I'm not sure I want to see the complete solution just yet...
13:44	ejackson	i wouldn't call my obscurantist ramblings a 'solution' :P
13:46	fliebel	ejackson: Do you know how sets work with logos?
13:47	ejackson	nope - i did this pre logos, so using Jim Duey's miniKanren
13:47	fliebel	ejackson: The long way to figure out if a set is valid would be using member-o, but I think it would be quicker to use sets.
13:48	ejackson	i used member-o (or mem-o can't recall)
13:49	dnolen	fliebel: ejackson: one issue is that Prolog doesn't really have data structures beyond lists, they work well with relational programs.
13:50	dnolen	I don't see how you could use sets relationally (maybe there's a way).
13:50	fliebel	dnolen: (== [1 2 3 4] #{1 2 3 4})
13:50	__name__	(&doc ==)
13:50	__name__	uhm
13:50	__name__	&(doc ==)
13:50	sexpbot	⟹ "([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns non-nil if nums all have the same value, otherwise false"
13:51	dnolen	thus William Byrd talks about Purely Relational Data Structures, are there data structure optimized for relational use.
13:51	fliebel	__name__: This is another ==
13:51	fliebel	dnolen: I thought you implemented unification with sets?
13:52	dnolen	fliebel: member-o - if you think about the computational cost, it's not good, you have to potentially traverse the whole list to determine membership. You don't have to do that with proper sets.
13:52	dnolen	fliebel: I did, but how can you define member-o in terms of sets? (I'm not saying you can't, but I haven't seen how)
13:53	fliebel	dnolen: I don't need to, I just want to know if a list/vector is equal to #{1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9}
13:54	fliebel	but (== [1 2 3 4] irc://irc.freenode.net:6667/#%7B1 2 3 4}) does not work.
13:54	fliebel	The reason I mentioned member-o, is because it seems to be the only way to tell.
13:54	fliebel	(i can think of)
13:55	dnolen	fliebel: you can't unify lists/vectors w/ sets. you can unify sets w/ logic vars in it with other sets.
13:56	dnolen	and I'm not totally convinced I should even allow that - it's really slow.
13:57	fliebel	dnolen: Okay, so append-o is the way to go for validating a row of sudoku?
13:57	dnolen	fliebel: I'm saying I don't really know :) I'm just telling you what little I do know :)
13:59	fliebel	dnolen: Okay, I'll think some more, I don't like that using append-o would be quadratic time… I think
14:00	dnolen	fliebel: I think it makes sense to look at a Prolog solution, they've thought about these issues a lot more than I have.
14:01	fliebel	I see… truth is that prolog has fd_all_different
14:02	fliebel	and prolog has inequality, which allows you to just say that everything is inequivalent.
14:03	dnolen	fliebel: ah, fd I think there stands for finite domain. constraint logic programming again.
14:03	dnolen	fliebel: ejackson: could probably accomplish with disequality constraints.
14:03	dnolen	too much to do.
14:04	ejackson	you and me boh
14:13	joelr	good day! assuming you did not define a java class, how do you refer to the .class of what clojure will generate?
14:14	joelr	i'm trying to replicate this bit of java:
14:14	joelr	public class ReutersIndexerFinished {
14:14	joelr	private transient static Log log = LogFactory.getLog(ReutersIndexer.class);
14:14	joelr	ReutersIndexerFinished.class bit
14:18	amalloy	joelr: just use clojure.contrib.logging. it automatically constructs and uses a logger for each namespace
14:18	joelr	amalloy: thanks!
14:19	joelr	amalloy: any examples of using that?
14:19	amalloy	the ".class of what clojure will generate" suggests some misunderstandings, too. clojure generates a class file for each function, not each namespace
14:19	joelr	<- newbie :-(
14:19	chouser	s/not/and also for/
14:19	amalloy	chouser: really?
14:20	fogus`	Track the progress of 1.3/2.0 http://dev.clojure.org/jira/secure/Dashboard.jspa?selectPageId=10014
14:20	chouser	amalloy: an *__init class
14:21	amalloy	joelr: https://github.com/Raynes/sexpbot/blob/master/src/sexpbot/plugins/log.clj is an example i happen to have on hand, but perhaps not a canonical one. it not only logs, but also provides functions for adjusting log levels for other namespaces
14:21	joelr	amalloy: thanks
14:22	amalloy	the get-logger function it's using is at https://github.com/Raynes/sexpbot/blob/master/src/sexpbot/utilities.clj#L83
14:22	amalloy	chouser: fair enough
14:24	fliebel	dnolen: What does rember-o do? I have the faint feeling I need it.
14:26	dnolen	fliebel: returns different answers for a list with a particular item removed.
14:27	fliebel	dnolen: (rember-o 2 [1 2 3 4] out) (== out [1 3 4])?
14:31	dnolen	fliebel: answer is actually ((1 3 4) (1 2 3 4), TRS explains why.
14:32	fliebel	I don't rember reading that… Or wait, maybe I do...
14:41	fliebel	dnolen: They cover a few pages for ungrounded values, is it in there? Screening the page, I don't see why it would return (1 2 3 4) as well for a fully grounded list.
14:42	dnolen	fliebel: it's definitely in there - they need to explain why it keeps going.
14:43	fliebel	okay, reading closely now.
14:46	mattmitchell	anyone using netbeans + enclojure with a leiningen project?
14:53	brehaut	morning everyone
14:56	amalloy	'lo brehaut
14:56	waxrosecabal	brehaut, morning/afternoon :D
14:56	brehaut	waxrosecabal: its always morning in UGT
14:56	amalloy	it's probably also always morning in NZ. you guys are weird
14:57	waxrosecabal	It's 2pm here. :)
14:57	amalloy	$google irc ugt universal greeting time
14:57	sexpbot	First out of 19 results is: UGT
14:57	brehaut	amalloy: its always the future
14:57	sexpbot	http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
14:57	amalloy	waxrosecabal: ^
14:57	brehaut	UGT?
14:57	clojurebot	ugt is Universal Greeting Time: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
14:57	brehaut	thats the easy way :P
14:57	waxrosecabal	brehaut, XD
14:58	joelr	how do you translate file.getName().endsWith(".txt") to clojure? is it (.. file getName (.endsWith "txt")) ?
14:58	waxrosecabal	amalloy, It's always night time in my room. >.<
14:59	amalloy	joelr: close: you're mixing .. and ->
14:59	joelr	amalloy: oh...
14:59	amalloy	you could write (.. file getName (endsWith "txt"))
14:59	waxrosecabal	I should take my laptop outside so I can get a taste of the outside world.
14:59	joelr	amalloy: should i use -> instead?
14:59	amalloy	i prefer (-> file .getName (.endsWith "txt")) personally
14:59	amalloy	because, among other things, it lets you add operations that aren't interop calls
15:00	joelr	amalloy: where can i read up on the difference?
15:00	joelr	amalloy: thanks
15:00	amalloy	&(macroexpand-all '(-> file .getName (.endsWith "txt")))
15:00	sexpbot	⟹ (. (. file getName) endsWith "txt")
15:00	amalloy	&(macroexpand-all '(.. file getName (endsWith "txt")))
15:00	sexpbot	⟹ (. (. file getName) (endsWith "txt"))
15:00	amalloy	er
15:00	amalloy	i'm pretty sure that first macroexpansion isn't right
15:01	joelr	:D
15:01	amalloy	oh, i guess it's fine. i don't really know how the . special form works anyway :P
15:01	joelr	ok
15:01	fliebel	dnolen: They don't explain it very direct, but I think I can see how it just continues and concludes there is nothing else to replace, and returns the full list.
15:05	dnolen	fliebel: yeah, some of the finer points are implicit, makes the book good for multiple reads I suppose.
15:06	fliebel	-,- I've got other books waiting ;)
15:12	fliebel	ouch, there got to be a better way than exist'ing 81 variables to get the cols, rows, and blocks
15:13	amalloy	fliebel: macros!
15:13	amalloy	(don't know how they're relevant here but they solve everything)
15:14	fliebel	amalloy: You're right, do the list magic in clojure space, and blit it onto the unifications.
15:14	fliebel	But defining all the list magic by cons and recursion is more interesting.
15:14	dnolen	fliebel: whatever you end up with, try to make it shorter than these, http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Sudoku ;)
15:16	fliebel	dnolen: It's at least shorter than some of them. Although I'm not sure if that first block is just a snippet or a full solver.
15:17	fliebel	Oh, if it says import sudoku, I guess it's not.
15:18	fliebel	dnolen: Do you know if there is a place to find more miniKanren sequence stuff than is currently in logos/logic?
15:19	fliebel	Stuff like cycle, take-nth and partition
15:21	dnolen	fliebel: not really, and I don't know enough of about Prolog to know how to define those or if they're even useful.
15:22	dnolen	fliebel: hopefully you're realizing that I'm only like 1/4 step ahead of you on most of this stuff.
15:23	fliebel	ehm, no, I'm not. You're my miniKanren guru :P
15:24	fliebel	dnolen: I think I can implement take and drop by means of rest-o, and go from there to implement take-nth, and maybe others.
15:25	fliebel	But implementing clojure/core is going to make my sudoku quite long ;)
15:38	fliebel	I can't do this stuff around this hour :(
15:41	mabes	hrm.. command-line-args doesn't appear to handle arguments in quotes as a single arg like most langs do.. e.g. foo "bar stuff" => ["foo" "bar" "stuff"]
15:41	fogus`	fliebel: Fun fun! https://gist.github.com/862962
15:42	fliebel	fogus`: Easy, easy, I just saw my first lines of prolog today.
15:46	fliebel	fogus`: Oh, I actually understand it! :) I'm jealous at the ease at which they do I −1 :(
15:46	dnolen	fliebel: that's not relational tho. You can accomplish the same thing in miniKanren with project.
15:47	fliebel	dnolen: project?
15:48	dnolen	fliebel: it gets the value of logic var so you have a real value in a scope.
15:49	fliebel	dnolen: where do I get it?
15:49	dnolen	fliebel: it's in logos.nonrel
15:49	fliebel	what is nonrel abaout?
15:49	dnolen	non-relational operators
15:50	fliebel	neat
15:50	choffstein	Hey all. Does anybody here use enlive and can help me figuring out how to insert an image generated dynamically into my site?
15:51	choffstein	I can't figure out how to use my templates to insert an image
15:53	dnolen	fliebel: actually you don't even need project I think, one day soon you'll be able to do this, https://gist.github.com/862975
15:53	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: 503>
15:54	fliebel	dnolen: With that scheme pairs? yuk! but otherwise, great!
15:54	dnolen	fliebel: heh not scheme pairs, that just syntax sugar for unifying to LConsSeq
16:23	joelr	assuming i have a line-seq (from a file), is there a quick one-liner to join the lines in the file using space as a separator?
16:26	joelr	got it! (require '[clojure.string :as str])
16:26	joelr	and str/join
16:26	choffstein	If I have a Java object with a method that expects an input it will write to, but can I use it from clojure? e.g. I want to call ByteArrayInputStream's read method
16:26	clojurebot	ant clean and rebuild contrib
16:27	mattmitchell	what's the BEST clojure editor? I'm lost.
16:29	amalloy	emacs
16:32	raek	choffstein: one way could be to send it an http://download.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/io/PipedOutputStream.html
16:32	choffstein	Thanks raek
16:32	raek	how do you want to access the data?
16:33	raek	another approach could be to proxy InputStream and make it conj the bytes onto a vector wrapped in an atom
16:36	raek	nice, my ListModel proxy that watches a vector wrapped in an atom works!
16:53	zakwilson	clojure.xml/parse is throwing SAXParseException on a file containing "&#x0D" because it evidently doesn't like that. A bit of googling suggests that this character may not be allowed in XML. Regardless, it's in a file I want to parse. What, other than a search and replace can I do to parse the file?
16:56	waxrosecabal	amalloy, Are you using Emacs 24?
16:56	amalloy	23
16:57	amalloy	zakwilson: maybe?
16:57	zakwilson	amalloy: I left the semicolon out of what I typed. It's present in the file.
16:58	waxrosecabal	amalloy, Are you using anything else besides slime for clojure?
16:59	amalloy	waxrosecabal: not really. slime/swank, clojure-mode, and paredit-mode
17:00	mattmitchell	amalloy: thanks. good to know.
17:09	TimMc	waxrosecabal: pushed
17:09	Ash	WAX
17:10	waxrosecabal	TimMc, Cool.... I'm about to push an automated script I just made to build Emacs 24 (rather the trunk)... if you are interested
17:10	TimMc	Nah, I'll stick with 23.
17:10	TimMc	I'm too new at Emacs to go fiddling with it.
17:11	waxrosecabal	Vim user?
17:11	TimMc	nano :-P
17:11	waxrosecabal	nice :D
17:11	TimMc	Actually, gedit for everyday editing.
17:11	waxrosecabal	Didn't consider Vim plugins for Clojure?
17:11	waxrosecabal	I hear they are pretty decent.
17:12	fliebel	If I have a non-executable list inside a macro, what is the right way to make it a real list, instead of a function call?
17:12	TimMc	waxrosecabal: I was unfamiliar with both, so I chose the one with more parens.
17:12	Chousuke	fliebel: what do you mean?
17:12	spewn	fliebel: Quote it?
17:12	TimMc	fliebel: (list ...)
17:12	Chousuke	fliebel: if you want code from a macro to generate a list, then either generate (quote yourlisthere) or what TimMc said
17:12	waxrosecabal	lol
17:13	fliebel	Chousuke: (defmacro blah [] `(some stuff ~(range 10))) < crude example
17:13	Chousuke	fliebel: some stuff = list
17:14	Chousuke	with ~@ instead of ~ in range
17:14	fliebel	Chousuke: Problem is that range tells me that it can;t use an integer as a function.
17:14	Chousuke	fliebel: yeah because you'll be generting code that looks like (some stuff (1 2 3 4)) ...
17:14	Chousuke	you need the splicing unquote
17:15	Chousuke	or you can use quote if you have only literals
17:15	fliebel	ah, and then splice it into a list? (list ~@(range 10))
17:15	Chousuke	yeah
17:16	Chousuke	then the generated code would be (list 1 2 3 ...) which evaluates to what you want
17:18	fliebel	dnolen: Guess what, StackOverflowError
17:18	waxrosecabal	TimMc, Well if you ever become adventurous this is think link to it. It builds Emacs trunk onto an external drive but can be modified of course. https://github.com/waxrosecabal/install_scripts/blob/master/build_emacs.sh
17:18	amalloy	TimMc: i think my client barfed on me; i tried to say "TimMc: i wrote a blog post about why gedit is a sin and you should use emacs or vim, if you're looking to be made fun of"
17:19	TimMc	waxrosecabal: I'm upgrade-shy.
17:19	waxrosecabal	You must be an OpenBSD user.
17:19	waxrosecabal	lol
17:19	TimMc	amalloy: THen you'll love this: I used to use Textpad 4 under Wine once I switched to Linux.
17:19	amalloy	nice
17:20	amalloy	i used textpad when i was learning java
17:20	TimMc	It's actually a damn good editor.
17:20	amalloy	i was like "omg this is so much better than notepad"
17:20	amalloy	and it was
17:20	TimMc	It's true!
17:20	TimMc	And yet very bare-bones -- it didn't try to be an IDE.
17:20	amalloy	textpad is roughly like gedit
17:20	amalloy	notepad is like...some kind of braindead version of either
17:21	waxrosecabal	Why not just use mousepad or even leafpad?
17:21	TimMc	Regex, LRU tabs, macros, external commands, basic syntax highlighting -- what more did I need? :-)
17:21	TimMc	amalloy: And yet notepad has some of the best Unicode support you'll see anywhere.
17:21	TimMc	*MRU tabs
17:22	__name__	TimMc: What makes its Unicode support better?
17:23	TimMc	Oh, I've just heard it is one of the most conforming applications to the Unicode standards.
17:23	dnolen	fliebel: for your sudoku solver?
17:23	TimMc	This was when I worked at Basis Technology, which does i18n and low-level linguistics processing.
17:24	waxrosecabal	Maybe since I've been a GNU/Linux user for 10+ years, I never did like notepad.
17:24	fliebel	dnolen: yea
17:24	TimMc	waxrosecabal: Notepad is shitty. It's the most basic thing you can have and still call an editor. That's all it was intended to be, though.
17:24	TimMc	I don't think anyone likes it.
17:25	__name__	Masochists?
17:25	amalloy	raymond chen has an article somewhere about how notepad always puts the BOM in for UTF-8 documents even if you only use single-byte characters
17:25	waxrosecabal	TimMc, I find that every time I used notepad then transfered a file over to my Linux.... the file would be infested with "M^"
17:25	dnolen	fliebel: yeah, honestly I'd relax on logos until I'm 100% sure that I have a correctly functioning base. Or you could starting reading Byrd's paper and help me out ;)
17:25	amalloy	waxrosecabal: that's not really anything to do with notepad
17:26	amalloy	windows uses \r\n as line terminators; unix uses \n
17:26	waxrosecabal	amalloy, Hmm
17:26	amalloy	you can configure decent editors (eg textpad) to use either
17:26	waxrosecabal	I don't really know much about Windows so it would always piss me off.
17:26	fliebel	dnolen: Hum, both seem a good idea :) I'll think about it.
17:26	amalloy	laugh
17:26	waxrosecabal	lol
17:26	TimMc	amalloy: Oh yeah, the BOM was annoying.
17:27	TimMc	My code got BOMbed more than once.
17:27	__name__	Storing metainfo inline is evil :(
17:27	__name__	We just need file meta info … profit!
17:33	duncanm	i'm using SLIME, and i have a few agents in the REPL
17:33	joelr	what is the 1.2 replacement for duck-streams' reader?
17:33	duncanm	what happens if one of the agents calls 'println'?
17:33	duncanm	where does it go?
17:34	duncanm	i made call Toolkit.getDefaultToolkit.beep, so i know the function is running, but i can't see any output
17:34	joelr	found it
17:35	duncanm	ahhh
17:35	duncanm	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5132225/how-to-capture-stdout-log-output-of-an-agent-in-slime
17:37	raek	i usually eval (alter-var-root #'out (constantly out)) in the emacs slime repl
17:37	duncanm	raek: have you tried elein?
17:39	dnolen	fliebel: I could use the help. Ultimately I want to see if a Clojure type checker can be built.
17:41	raek	duncanm: haven't tried it. is it similar to durendal?
17:41	fliebel	dnolen: It'd be fun, but also demanding and time consuming :) A type checker?
17:42	dnolen	fliebel: logic programming makes such things less demanding and time consuming.
17:43	duncanm	raek: haven't heard from durendal either
17:44	dnolen	fliebel: Qi has a pretty interesting take on types based on sequent calculus. Would be fun to give a shot that.
17:45	fliebel	dnolen: I don't know Qi, but I believe you. *googles sequent calculus)
17:45	fliebel	oh, to late to understand that type of stuff :(
17:48	fliebel	dnolen: Yup, I think I ran into the same issue again… https://gist.github.com/863180 a full board runs fine.
17:49	dnolen	fliebel: noted.
17:53	ossareh	anyone in SF going to the clojure meetup tomorrow at backtype?
18:05	amalloy	ossareh: you can see who's attending from the meetup page
18:05	amalloy	i don't see george jahad on that list, but he told me he's going as well
18:06	rata_	should I send a fn to an agent from a fn send to an agent?
18:06	rata_	*sent
18:06	TimMc	rata_: I don't think that's unusual.
18:06	rata_	there's no problem with retries and send?
18:08	TimMc	rata_: I believe that transactions are send-aware.
18:08	rata_	TimMc: so should I put the send in a dosync?
18:08	TimMc	err
18:08	TimMc	I don't really know.
18:09	brehaut	rata_: you only need to put send in a dosync if its related to atransaction on STM refs
18:09	TimMc	Forget what I said about transactions...
18:09	patrkris	rata_: depends on whether you need to do send an action to an agent, when the transaction completes
18:09	brehaut	aside from that, i dont think there is any problem with sending an action to one agent from another
18:09	TimMc	Agent actions don't get retries, do they?
18:10	TimMc	That's just transactions?
18:10	raek	correct
18:10	patrkris	no, they're only sent when the transaction commits succesfully
18:10	raek	also, sends from an agent action are held until the action completes successfully
18:11	TimMc	raek: Ah, that's right.
18:11	rata_	oh ok, thanks you all =)
18:11	raek	,(doc release-pending-sends)
18:11	clojurebot	"([]); Normally, actions sent directly or indirectly during another action are held until the action completes (changes the agent's state). This function can be used to dispatch any pending sent acti...
18:14	rata_	I forgot to say I'm sending an action to the same agent executing the action, but probably that doesn't change anything
18:15	tsdh	Hi
18:16	TimMc	rata_: Correct.
18:16	tsdh	Is there a way to free the memoization cache of some memoized function explicitly?
18:16	TimMc	tsdh: What for, to regain memory?
18:17	brehaut	tdsh: not with the default implementation
18:18	brehaut	tsdh: the implementation in The Joy of Clojure provides that feature (the cache is attached as metadata to the fn)
18:18	brehaut	and you might find something in https://gist.github.com/747395 that is useful
18:18	tsdh	TimMc: I use memoize to circumvent expensive calculations that were done before. However, the calculations can produce a by-product, and when you want to have that, then the calculation has to be performed.
18:18	TimMc	A side effect?
18:19	TimMc	Sounds like a bad idea.
18:19	amalloy	tsdh: don't do it that way
18:19	TimMc	tsdh: You'll make amalloy cry!
18:19	TimMc	(me too, for that matter)
18:19	amalloy	(defn expensive-function [args] (do stuff with args)) (defn cached-function [] (memoize expensive-function))
18:19	tsdh	TimMc: Yes. I calculate reachable vertices in graphs. A not too cheap side effect is the calculation of shortest paths.
18:20	amalloy	then whenever you want a new cache you can call cached-function and throw away your old cached version
18:20	tsdh	amalloy: Hm, that doesn't sound bad...
18:21	TimMc	tsdh: Wait, are you actually using side effects, or do you just produce several results?
18:21	amalloy	ie, (cached-function) will return a new version of expensive-function with an empty cache; keep that around for as long as you want
18:23	tsdh	Well, I think I should think about my design a bit. ;-)
18:23	tsdh	Thanks for the hints.
18:26	tsdh	One other thing. Can I create a dynamic binding without def-ing it before?
18:28	amalloy	tsdh: kinda-sorta. see ##(doc with-local-vars)
18:28	sexpbot	⟹ "Macro ([name-vals-vec & body]); varbinding=> symbol init-expr Executes the exprs in a context in which the symbols are bound to vars with per-thread bindings to the init-exprs. The symbols refer to the var objects themselves, and must be accessed with var-get and var-set"
18:29	amalloy	and also (declare foo) is basically like (def foo) without a value; creates a global var with no initial binding
18:29	tsdh	amalloy: Great
18:51	TimMc	Leiningen puts out reflection warnings for dependencies when I compile (with :warn-on-reflection) -- can anybody think of a situation where this would be desirable?
18:54	powrtoc	TimMc, what having reflective calls??
18:56	TimMc	powrtoc: I don't understand your question.
18:57	powrtoc	TimMc, I didn't understand yours... are you asking when is having reflective calls desirable?
18:57	powrtoc	as opposed to type-hinted ones?
18:57	mesh	I want to make a function that translates [0 1 0 1] to [1 3], and [0 1 1] to [2 3] (so the indexes of the 1's), is this possible without writing the loop myself?
18:57	TimMc	No, I'm asking about the desired scope of Leiningen's :warn-on-reflection option.
18:58	hiredman	,(doc indexed)
18:58	clojurebot	Excuse me?
18:58	TimMc	WHen enabled, it should clearly emit reflection warnings for the main source code. The question is, should it also emit warnings for reflection encountered in :dependencies.
18:58	hiredman	,(doc keep-indexed)
18:58	clojurebot	"([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the non-nil results of (f index item). Note, this means false return values will be included. f must be free of side-effects."
18:59	powrtoc	TimMc, ahh..... yes I think they might make sense... as a reflective call in a dependency is still a potential performance problem
19:01	technomancy	TimMc: if there is a way to do that I'm all ears
19:02	TimMc	technomancy: It currently does that, as far as I can tell.
19:03	powrtoc	hmm... I have some problems with AOT/lein... when I build an uberjar featuring a proxy call, it bombs out with a NoClassDefFoundError for the proxied class
19:03	powrtoc	I don't really understand it... I thought proxies were a runtime class
19:03	amalloy	&(keep-indexed #(and (= 1 %2) %1) [0 1 1] )
19:03	sexpbot	⟹ (false 1 2)
19:03	technomancy	TimMc: I mean if there's a way to get it turned on just for your project, I'm not aware of it
19:04	TimMc	technomancy: Ah, got it.
19:04	amalloy	&(keep-indexed #(when (= 1 %2) %1) [0 1 1] )
19:04	sexpbot	⟹ (1 2)
19:04	amalloy	mesh: ^ fleshes out hiredman's suggestion
19:04	powrtoc	but I need to gen-class the namespace so I can start it with a simple java -jar foo.jar
19:04	TimMc	Oh right! Because the compiler goes back and forth and every which way when compiling, and leiningen can't turn warn-on-reflection on and off in the process.
19:05	mesh	hiredman: amalloy: I think I have found something on the net about an indexed and index-filter function
19:05	powrtoc	I'm not sure if this is an AOT issue or a leiningen issue
19:11	technomancy	powrtoc: depending on your needs you could look at using a shell-wrapper to launch; see leiningen's tutorial
19:14	powrtoc	technomancy, Yeah I saw that... and not AOTing does solve the issue... but a shell wrapper forces the other end to use leiningen... and adds another moving part...
19:14	powrtoc	technomancy, is this a known issue with AOT and proxy??
19:14	technomancy	yeah, it's a half-way solution
19:14	technomancy	I haven't heard of it, but I don't do much aot. are you on the latest lein?
19:14	powrtoc	1.4.0
19:15	technomancy	worth upgrading to 1.4.2, but I don't know if that'll fix it
19:15	powrtoc	updating now
19:16	powrtoc	it looks like for some reason calls to proxy, even (proxy [Object] [] (toString [] "foo")) in an AOT'd namespace fail when built with lein
19:17	technomancy	if you can repro on the latest git, please open an issue
19:17	powrtoc	I'm not sure if lein is stripping out the funny looking proxy classes from the build, or if it's a clojure thing
19:18	powrtoc	but at runtime clojure definitely expects to see a class on the classpath, and it aint there
19:18	amalloy	are you sure there are no stale class files from previous AOT runs causing conflicts?
19:18	amalloy	that usually winds up being the issue when someone has an AOT problem in #clojure
19:20	powrtoc	amalloy, yeah, I clean each time
19:20	powrtoc	and I think uberjar cleans automatically
19:20	powrtoc	(by default anyway)
19:23	technomancy	there was a brief period where leinigen removed non-project .class files, but this broke protocol usage since AOT semantics for protocols are different from everything else in clojure
19:25	powrtoc	technomancy, amalloy: Here's the error and reproducible test case https://gist.github.com/863309
19:26	amalloy	ooo i got a highlight on a leiningen bug. it's almost as if someone in #clojure thinks i know anything about leiningen (really i just ping technomancy when someone has an issue)
19:26	powrtoc	technomancy, yeah, I saw that mentioned somewhere... but now that doesn't happen right?
19:27	powrtoc	hmmm 1.4.2 seems to have fixed it...
19:27	powrtoc	need to try it again on my real project
19:27	powrtoc	to be sure
19:28	powrtoc	yeah, that proxy class now exists... but 1.4.0 didn't generate it!
19:30	technomancy	yeah, the fix was released soon after 1.4.0
19:30	technomancy	luckily upgrading is really easy.
19:31	powrtoc	technomancy, yeah you've done a reaalllyy nice job with the upgrade process etc..
19:32	technomancy	actually that wasn't me.
19:32	technomancy	was another seajure dude.
19:32	powrtoc	well you did a really fine thing in merging the patch! :-)
19:34	tufflax	What does "(?i)" mean in this regex: (re-seq #"(?i)[fq].." "foo bar BAZ QUX quux") => ("foo" "QUX" "quu")
19:34	amalloy	tufflax: turn on case insensititivity
19:35	tufflax	ok, thank you
19:35	amalloy	(also: disable counting of I and T characters cause they're so damn fun to type, apparently)
19:35	powrtoc	leiningen is probably my favourite of all build tools on any platform... it's nice and simple, fosters a good workflow, and works
19:36	powrtoc	my only real problem with it is more a problem of managing dependencies and transative dependencies with clojars
19:36	TimMc	amalloy: Classic banananana error.
19:36	hiredman	powrtoc: and very easy to extend and hack on
19:36	amalloy	heh, indeed
19:37	amalloy	it's a good thing i didn't need to spell dakry too
19:37	powrtoc	hiredman, yeah that too!
19:37	hiredman	I had a project that needed to generate a file in the META-INF directory in the gernated jar, so I just put a few lines in the project.clj that hooked the lein jar task
19:38	powrtoc	technomancy, ok it works on my real project too! Thanks for your help... I didn't realise 1.4.2 was out
19:38	powrtoc	uberjars r us!
19:38	technomancy	1.5.0 right around the corner; watch out
19:39	powrtoc	technomancy, yeah, I saw the post
19:40	powrtoc	does anyone here use either aleph or cljque?
19:41	TimMc	technomancy: warn-on-reflection fix for repl will land on 1.5.0?
19:43	technomancy	TimMc: yeah; if you'd like to confirm it by running from git that'd be great.
19:43	powrtoc	Basically I've written a stomp broker using raw netty... and I know to do so I've recreated a small part of aleph (and possibly cljque), but it was just easier to use netty early on as it's well documented compared to aleph etc...
19:45	powrtoc	anyway, I was originally thinking I'd like to port it to aleph... but then I saw aleph was built around lamina but that cljque is a competing project/concept.... and cljque's RX inspiration makes me think it's a superior approach overall... what's the communities opinion>
19:45	powrtoc	?
19:51	hiredman	cljque has a horrible name
19:56	technomancy	"cudgel-k-you", like it's a threat.
19:58	hiredman	but I ma not super fond of aleph, I haven't used either, but I think I would lean towards cljque style if not cljque
20:02	powrtoc	hiredman, yeah it really does
20:04	powrtoc	hiredman, well I've recently done a lot of research into RX which is freakin' awesome (the best thing out of microsoft in years) and I'd love to see something like that gain traction with the clojure community
20:04	powrtoc	I'm really just wondering which camp is the best to invest some time into
20:05	powrtoc	problem is that my server might actually be deployed in production at some point... so picking something really experimental might be a bad idea
20:06	brehaut	powrtoc: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Channels
20:06	brehaut	WRT to the longer term
20:07	danlarkin	In the same way that commute allows for "more concurrency" than alter, does alter allow for more than ref-set?
20:07	hiredman	brehaut: it's wiki, doesn't mean rich has commited to anything
20:07	amalloy	danlarkin: ref-set barely allows for any concurrency
20:07	danlarkin	but why less than alter?
20:08	amalloy	i mean, it "allows for more", maybe, because the STM will let multiple threads set a ref if none of them read from it
20:08	powrtoc	brehaut, thanks for that... I've been trying to find that link again... note rich hickeys first comment... "no one should do anything without fully understanding RX"
20:09	powrtoc	that's my concern with aleph
20:09	danlarkin	I understand why commute > alter -- because you're telling the stm that operations are commutative, but alter makes no such guarantee
20:09	amalloy	but if you are reading from a ref, then writing to it based on that value, it seems horrible and evil to use ref-set
20:09	amalloy	and if you actually did read from it earlier in the transaction with @ref, i don't think you'd even gain anything from doing it that way
20:09	hiredman	commute is an optimization, when in doubt use alter
20:10	technomancy	I'd be surprised if ref-set allowed for reordering behind the scenes.
20:10	technomancy	without mentioning it at least.
20:11	danlarkin	ok, now part two of my thinking,
20:12	danlarkin	lets say I have a transaction similar to this, (dosync (delete :dan) (add :dan2))
20:12	danlarkin	easy enough to do that with two alters
20:13	danlarkin	assuming delete and add modify the same ref
20:13	danlarkin	but! how to represent that with one single alter
20:13	hiredman	I don't follow
20:14	danlarkin	well delete dissocs and add assocs, let's say
20:14	hiredman	(alter (ref ...) (fn [...] (-> ... (conj :dan2) (disj :dan))))
20:15	danlarkin	ah
20:15	danlarkin	yes
20:15	danlarkin	that's indeed what it would be
20:16	danlarkin	Hm
20:16	danlarkin	I think I'm still confused about how alter can allow for more concurrency than ref-set
20:18	amalloy	danlarkin: you are coming at this from the wrong perspective. "allow more concurrency" is not really relevant here: the issue is that alter can be based on a pure function, while using ref-set puts concurrency code all over your program
20:19	technomancy	danlarkin: deref + ref-set introduces a window for a race condition
20:20	danlarkin	why is ref-setting a ref to 5 different than (alter r (fn [r] 5))
20:20	amalloy	danlarkin: it's not. they're both evil
20:21	technomancy	right; there's only a race if you're ref-setting to a value based upon an earlier read.
20:21	hiredman	a read outside of the transaction
20:21	danlarkin	technomancy: not if you're doing it inside a transaction, which would be the only valid way to do that
20:21	technomancy	right; if you do it inside the transaction, it could result in a retry, not an invalid value.
20:22	technomancy	it's not _that_ racy.
20:22	danlarkin	I just don't see how it's any different than alter
20:23	amalloy	danlarkin: (dosync (let [x @foo] (ref-set foo (inc x)))) vs (dosync (alter x inc)). why would you ever do it the first way?
20:23	amalloy	er, alter foo inc, whatever
20:23	danlarkin	oh, you wouldn't for sure
20:23	danlarkin	but, they're equivalent, right?
20:24	amalloy	from the computer's point of view? probably
20:24	danlarkin	in every single way, except for how the code reads
20:24	amalloy	but the code reads worse in so many different ways
20:24	danlarkin	I'm totally with you on that
20:25	amalloy	okay. so your question is "does one of these constructs have better performance"?
20:25	danlarkin	basically
20:25	amalloy	afaik, no
20:26	technomancy	there's a slightly larger window in which a retry could be triggered
20:27	danlarkin	technomancy: how, though
20:27	amalloy	technomancy: i'm not sure about that...the retry will happen at the end of the dosync, not the end of the alter, right?
20:28	technomancy	I guess it's probably only practically larger if there's something going on between the deref and the set
20:29	technomancy	amalloy: I think it can retry as soon as it knows something is awry
21:06	TimMc	technomancy: How do I get lein 1.5.0 shell script? (I've checked out the repo.)
21:07	technomancy	TimMc: it's in bin/lein
21:07	TimMc	That script complains about missing deps.
21:08	TimMc	./bin/lein deps does too.
21:09	technomancy	right; you should be able to use your existing leiningen to get deps for it; see "Building" in the readme.
21:10	technomancy	if you have suggestions for a way to make that clearer I would like to hear it; for some reason it trips up a lot of people, but I am not sure what is confusing about it.
21:10	TimMc	Oh! Ha, OK.
21:12	TimMc	I see it in the Building section now.
21:13	tufflax	Coordinated change (as in refs are but atoms are not coordinated) does that mean that I am able to change several refs at the same time atomically? Have I understood this correctly?
21:13	brehaut	tufflax: yes
21:13	tufflax	ok, good :)
21:13	tufflax	thank you
21:15	TimMc	tufflax: Just note that refs you only read from may be written to by another transaction.
21:15	TimMc	(though you will see a consistent state during a given transaction)
21:17	TimMc	technomancy: I can confirm that lein master fixes the REPL warn-on-reflection problem. In fact, it also seems to turn warn-on-reflection on properly in the REPL, which it didn't before.
21:35	tufflax	I'm a little bit confused by vars. Just, for the sake of argument say that I would like a counter of something, so I do (def counter 0). That creates a var right? But I can't use set-var! on it because that changes the root-binding. Should I use atoms or agents instead for that kind of thing? I'm not sure I have understood what vars should be used for exactly.
21:36	brehaut	tufflax: you shouldnt really use vars as changable refs, an atom would be a much better choice in the context of a counter
21:36	tufflax	ok
21:36	brehaut	vars have more of a role in the defining namespaces and such than as a 'variable' for your program (this is a terrible explaination. hopefully someone smarter can correct me)
21:37	hiredman	vars provide storage for things in a namespace
21:37	tufflax	hehe i think im beginning to understand... i read something like that in the doc for (binding ...)
21:38	mec	As I understand it vars are for thread local changes. So if you only have one thread you could use vars, multiple threads use atoms
21:38	hiredman	vars happen to provide dynamic thread-local rebinding
21:38	hiredman	but as of 1.3 not all vars do
21:38	tufflax	But in the example i had with a counter, even if i have a single thread, a var seem like a bad idea.
21:38	tufflax	...mec
21:38	hiredman	right
21:39	hiredman	outside of developement vars should be treated as immutable
21:40	tufflax	yeah ok, i think i have a pretty clear understanding now, thank you
21:43	TimMc	$findfn :foo true
21:43	sexpbot	[clojure.core/keyword? clojure.core/== clojure.core/distinct? clojure.core/boolean clojure.core/< clojure.core/= clojure.core/> clojure.core/>= clojure.core/<= clojure.core/ifn?]
21:45	mec	https://gist.github.com/a5a7b994cdb3774e1843 these perform identically so is one more idiomatic, or even a builtin i've overlooked?
21:52	tufflax	I though '!' in names are used to signify impurity/side effects, so how come 'send', for example, is not 'send!'?
21:53	brehaut	mec: summation is much more simply (defn summation [f n] (apply + (map f (range n))))
21:54	amalloy	brehaut: i think he's just using summation as an example of his accumulate HOF
21:54	mec	yup
21:54	brehaut	ok sure
21:55	brehaut	excuse me while i grab this by the wrong end
21:55	TimMc	tufflax: I think ! is used to distinguish between pure and impure versions of the same algorithm.
21:55	TimMc	...or when side effects are not otherwise obvious from the name.
21:55	brehaut	mec: it smells to me like a wonky way of writing hylomorphism
21:56	brehaut	but hylomorphism is not idiomatic clojure
21:56	tufflax	TimMc but 'send' doesn't seem more obvious than 'swap!' :P
21:56	clojurebot	:negative/num-1 + :positive/num-1 = :zero/zero
21:57	brehaut	mec: where hylomorphism is an unfold into a fold, but we dont have an off the shelf unfold in clojure that i am aware of
21:57	amalloy	mec: i don't 100% follow how accumulate works, but i don't think it's necessary for me to. i (a) hate acc3, (b) would wrote acc1 myself, (c) think acc2 is the best
21:58	amalloy	i'm not sure why you've hardcoded <= though. it seems to limit usefulness for no particular reason
22:00	mec	I don't think i've ever heard that term before
22:00	amalloy	mec: it's what crazy haskellers/mathematicians say instead of unfold
22:00	brehaut	amalloy: its not just unfold!
22:00	mec	what is unfold? :D
22:01	amalloy	mec: unfold is the opposite of reduce
22:01	amalloy	https://gist.github.com/805583
22:02	amalloy	disclaimer: whenever i say something ending in "orphism", brehaut is the one who is actually right
22:02	amalloy	brehaut: map is a catamorphism, right?
22:03	brehaut	i believe so
22:04	brehaut	wait sorry, no catamorphism is fold
22:04	brehaut	anamorphism is unfold
22:06	mec	amalloy: i agree that acc2 looks the best but would probably write 1 anyway
22:06	tufflax	If unold is the opposite of reduce, is fold and reduce the same thing? Also, I at first thought unfold was the same as unsplice (as in picking things out of a collection); I think I've heard it used that way before.
22:06	amalloy	yes, reduce and fold are synonymous
22:07	amalloy	well. there's foldr and foldl, which refer to whether you do (+ (+ (+ 1 2) 3) 4) or (+1 (+ 2 (+ 3 4)))
22:07	amalloy	and i can never remember which is which, but clojure uses the one that lets you consume the sequence lazily
22:08	brehaut	the lazy one is left
22:08	brehaut	which i think is the former
22:08	amalloy	certainly the former is what clojure does
22:09	amalloy	&(reduce (partial list '+) [1 2 3 4])
22:09	sexpbot	⟹ (+ (+ (+ 1 2) 3) 4)
22:09	tufflax	Is there some way to unsplice, so that I could do something like (+ (unsplice [1 2 3]))? There is not, right?
22:09	amalloy	tufflax: certainly there is, because you haven't defined what unsplice means
22:10	amalloy	oh, do you just mean ##(apply + [1 2 3])?
22:10	sexpbot	⟹ 6
22:10	tufflax	yes, but without apply
22:10	amalloy	tufflax: you can do that inside of a macro, but in general it's a language construct that would lead to chaos if you could do it everywhere
22:10	tufflax	hehe ok
22:10	amalloy	&(let [nums [1 2 3]] `(+ ~@nums))
22:10	sexpbot	⟹ (clojure.core/+ 1 2 3)
22:11	brehaut	amalloy, tufflax: http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/jeremy.gibbons/publications/origami.pdf more about folds and unfolds than you care to know ;)
22:12	brehaut	it is of course written in mathskell
22:12	brehaut	and that result is that its all greek to me
22:12	amalloy	brehaut: feh. i wrote fold and unfold; i neither need nor desire further information
22:12	tufflax	By the way, speaking of macros: No book I've read (Joy of Clojure or Programming Clojure) goes very deep into macros. Where can I learn more? I was thinking of reading "Let over lambda" or "on lisp" although they use CL. Do you think that the ideas in them apply to clojure?
22:13	mec	im not sure i understand unfold
22:13	zippy314	looking for some defmacro love. Here's a gist: https://gist.github.com/863513 the final call, i.e. using the macro returns: Can't use qualified name as parameter: my.namespace/this why?
22:13	brehaut	mec: unfold generates a sequence
22:13	mec	first rule of macros, never use macros
22:13	amalloy	tufflax: absolutely yes
22:13	amalloy	On Lisp goes heavy into macros
22:14	tufflax	ok, hopefully I can extract the information without knowing CL
22:15	brehaut	tufflax: the main difference in how they are used is that clojure uses macros as a light coating on the top of functions, whereas CL tends to be a bit more aggressive in its application
22:15	tufflax	ok, im not sure I understand what you mean though :)
22:16	amalloy	OL it spends a some time covering constructs that just aren't useful/necessary in clojure
22:16	amalloy	wow that sentence is littered with wasted articles
22:17	brehaut	in clojure, build your solution in terms of functions and data, and then at the end (maybe) add macros to make it a easier to use the API, rather than making the API out of macros
22:17	brehaut	amalloy: vs everything i write which is littered with wasted words
22:18	amalloy	brehaut: that is of course sound advice, but you also imply that you shouldn't write macros for new syntactic constructs
22:18	brehaut	amalloy: why would you, when you can just sugar domonad!
22:18	amalloy	sob
22:20	brehaut	but yes you are right, new syntax is ok
22:20	amalloy	brehaut: wrong again, new syntax is AWESOME!!!1
22:20	brehaut	you sure your not a C# developer?
22:21	amalloy	no grey area for you, is there
22:21	brehaut	none at all
22:24	waxrose	Morning every one. ( UGT ^_^ )
22:26	phenom_	does the STM still work this way: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/f6241aedb41d82df
22:27	cky	&(sort "foobar")
22:27	sexpbot	⟹ (\a \b \f \o \o \r)
22:32	mec	is there anything unfold can do that iterate cant?
22:32	tufflax	brehaut: http://pastebin.com/KcKAmC5S When you say that macros in Clojure is a light coating is sounds a little bit like the aphorisms there. But who am I to judge? :P
22:33	amalloy	mec: no; as you can see i implemented unfold on top of iterate
22:33	amalloy	but neither is there anything map can do that lazy-seq can't do :P
22:33	brehaut	tufflax: well there you go :)
22:33	mec	ah true
22:36	phenom_	if I de-ref a ref in a dosync and another transaction changes it, my transaction will restart correct ?
22:37	amalloy	no, that's what ensure is for
22:40	zippy314	still looking for some defmacro/protocol love. Here's a gist: https://gist.github.com/863513 the final call at line 5, i.e. using the macro returns: Can't use qualified name as parameter: my.namespace/this why?
22:41	amalloy	zippy314: change them to ~'this
22:42	amalloy	&`[x 'x ~'x '~'x]
22:42	sexpbot	⟹ [clojure.core/x (quote clojure.core/x) x (quote x)]
22:42	clojurebot	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/bba604cee3b232d9/28837d55525306d8?lnk=gst&q=recursive+macroexpand#28837d55525306d8
22:42	amalloy	wow, surprisingly relevant, clojurebot
22:49	phenom_	amalloy: im getting confused, can you explain this: http://pastie.org/1654199 ?
22:50	zippy314	amalloy: thanks.
22:53	amalloy	phenom_: the second transaction has successfully set the ref, but the first transaction is using the value it got when it first derefed
22:54	amalloy	the transaction always sees a consistent snapshot, but if you don't write to a ref you don't prevent it from being modified in the real world
22:54	tomoj	so why does the first transaction not print "End"?
22:54	phenom_	it's retried !
22:54	phenom_	and i don understand why !!?!?
22:55	phenom_	am I crazy ?
22:55	amalloy	phenom_: you're not; the issue is probably that i don't actually know half the stuff i claim to know
22:55	tomoj	I can't reproduce your output
22:55	phenom_	executing the same line again (the "do") prints it properly
22:56	tomoj	oh, nevermind, reproduced
22:56	phenom_	I can reproduce it consistently even after jvm restarts
22:56	phenom_	tomoj: retry the do command and it'll work as expected
22:57	amalloy	wait phenom_
22:57	tomoj	adding an ensure seems to just make the ref-set transaction block
22:57	phenom_	same here
22:58	amalloy	.start is asynchronous; maybe you want to add a Thread/sleep between .start and dosycn
22:58	mec	It's deffinitly starting before the ref-set because its printing 1 first
22:58	amalloy	i mean, you're testing something with a race condition here
22:58	phenom_	mec: exactly
22:58	ossareh	is there some way to make lein log what is happening? I'm doing a lein uberjar and it is stopping.
22:58	ossareh	just hanging.
22:59	amalloy	phenom_: except that sometimes you say it works as expected. that sounds to me like a race condition
22:59	phenom_	the first run always is incorrect, every other run after that works
23:00	mec	This is working as I understand it should, you dont need a transaction to read, but then you're reading a snapshot and it wont retry, but in a transaction a read will retry
23:01	phenom_	amalloy: and the thread sleep doesn't matter (just checked)
23:01	phenom_	so ... a read within a transaction will retry if the variable was modified outside the specific transaction ?
23:04	mec	correct
23:05	rata_	is it ok to have an agent inside an atom? I always forget what mutable things I'm able to nest
23:05	phenom_	i think the literature is a little vague on this ... atleast the joy of clojure isn't specific on this in their write-skew section
23:06	amalloy	rata_: you can nest anything you want
23:06	phenom_	mec: so then what is the point of ensure?
23:06	amalloy	in practice having an agent wrapped with an atom sounds like a hanging offense
23:07	mec	i've never heard of it before, but it appears to be a lock for the ref, so no other transaction can use it until you're done
23:07	rata_	amalloy: why?
23:07	amalloy	rata_: that was going to be my next question :P
23:08	rata_	amalloy: your question is why I'm doing it?
23:08	amalloy	yeah
23:10	rata_	I have a http server running simulations, each simulation goes into a map which is in an atom
23:10	rata_	an each simulation is an agent that runs that simulation
23:11	rata_	amalloy: ^
23:12	amalloy	interesting
23:13	amalloy	i dunno, seems reasonable to me
23:15	rata_	good
23:15	rata_	agents are so cool
23:26	tomoj	rata_: http requests trigger simulation starts?
23:26	rata_	tomoj: yes
23:26	tomoj	and then requests can get status by checking the agents?
23:27	rata_	yes
23:32	tomoj	neat
23:33	amalloy	rata_: incidentally i still think an atom around an agent is bad news. you have a map of agents within an atom, which seems less likely to be disastrous
23:34	amalloy	but exceptions abound for every rule, and i could well be wrong about (atom (agent foo))
23:35	rata_	amalloy: it's (atom {1 (agent foo), 2 (agent bar), ...})
23:35	rata_	where 1 and 2 are simulation ids
23:35	amalloy	right
23:35	rata_	does anyone have used protovis btw?
23:35	rata_	mmmmm bad english
23:36	rata_	whatever
23:36	rata_	have anyone used protovis?