#clojure – 2011-03-08

2011-03-08

00:00	tomoj	amalloy: maybe some history at work?
00:00	tomoj	[bindings then else & oldform]
00:01	amalloy	oh right, that dang oldform thing. i remember seeing that when i first looked up what if-let did
00:01	tomoj	what was the old way, I wonder?
00:02	amalloy	tomoj: (if-let a b x y), i'd guess?
00:04	amalloy	interestingly if-let doesn't mirror if by allowing only a then clause - you have to use when-let if you don't want an else
00:05	tomoj	eh? ##(if-let [a nil] 1)
00:05	sexpbot	⟹ nil
00:05	amalloy	huh
00:05	amalloy	oh, i had scrolled past that part of the code without ever noticing it existed
05:06	clgv	Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.PersistentVector$TransientVector - is that supposed to mean that I can only use transients for creating the collection and need to make it persistent before I can read from it?
05:33	raek	clgv: you generally only have a transient version of the collection temporarily when you create it or modify it. as soon as you are done with the changes, you should make a persistent version of it again
05:34	raek	an ISeq from a TransientVector sounds weird, since that would imply that you get an immutable, lazy, sequential view over something mutable
05:35	raek	clgv: you should be able to use nth other functions that works on datastructures rather than seqs to read from it though
06:09	clgv	ok thanks. I had that transient in a "local scope"in my concept but I noticed I still would have to read from it
06:10	clgv	but considering the whole scenario, I "seldom" add components to the transient. "seldom" is meant with respect to measured runtime.
06:10	clgv	so I think I will use a normal vector there
06:11	clgv	so any possible benefit from a transient in that concrete case is questionable
08:15	timvisher	hey all
08:15	timvisher	anyone feel like helping me understand why the following square-root definition is giving me a no method found exception?
08:16	timvisher	https://gist.github.com/860251
08:16	timvisher	I'm working my way through SICP and I was surprised that Ratio wouldn't be automatically handled when I pass it to Math/abs
08:16	timvisher	I thought numbers were 'automagical' in Clojure
08:18	AWizzArd	timvisher: The function Math/abs only accepts primitives and not a clojure.lang.Ratio.
08:19	AWizzArd	Clojure can not translate from this class to a primitive type automatically.
08:19	AWizzArd	,(Math/abs (double -1/3))
08:19	clojurebot	0.3333333333333333
08:20	timvisher	(ah
08:20	timvisher	lol-
08:20	timvisher	not sure why I appended a ( to that
08:20	timvisher	I'm on 1.2 for clojure and clojure-contrib
08:21	timvisher	Is clojure.contrib.math available in 1.2?
08:23	AWizzArd	timvisher: I don't have 1.2 available here right now, but you could find out yourself by trying to require this lib.
08:30	timvisher	AWizzArd: that's what I tried. Thanks for your help!
08:31	clgv	timvisher: yes it is
08:32	clgv	,(clojure-version)
08:32	clojurebot	"1.2.0"
08:32	clgv	clojurebot uses 1.2.0 himself ;)
08:36	timvisher	clgv: thanks!
08:36	timvisher	bye all
08:38	clgv	&(clojure-version)
08:38	sexpbot	⟹ "1.2.0"
08:38	clgv	ah sexpbot uses 1.2.0 too^^
08:47	__name__	&(. Runtime getRunTime)
08:47	sexpbot	java.lang.NoSuchFieldException: getRunTime
08:47	__name__	&(. Runtime getRuntime)
08:47	sexpbot	⟹ #<Runtime java.lang.Runtime@19f20e5>
08:47	__name__	&(. Runtime getRuntime availableProcessors)
08:47	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: availableProcessors in this context
08:47	__name__	&(.. Runtime getRuntime availableProcessors)
08:47	sexpbot	⟹ 4
08:48	clgv	lol spying on sexpbots hardware ;)
08:48	__name__	The bot in #scala blatantly lies on that matter.
08:48	clgv	but thanks for the processors hint. I could use that toorganize the chunks for one of my pmaps
08:48	clgv	what does it say?
08:48	cemerick	Note that .availableProcessors reports cores, not CPUs
08:49	clgv	cemerick: thats fine. it doesnt even have to mean real cores since it could be the hyperthreading part as well
08:53	raek	clgv: pmap already uses that to organize itself. https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L5878
08:55	clgv	raek: but I have to build bigger chunks since otherwise the scheduler overhead will slow me down like described in several blog posts
08:55	__name__	clgv: [14:54] <scalabot> Int = 1337
08:55	clgv	and I can use the processors count as indication which decomposition makes sense
08:56	cemerick	clgv: how you build those chunks has far more to do with your dataset and the operations you're performing than the number of CPUs
08:57	clgv	if I have a list to execute a function on, I could simply split it into processorcount many parts to avoid scheduling overhead. dont you think?
08:57	bartj	how can I pick the key which has the maximum value in a hash-map?
08:57	bartj	without first sorting the values, picking the maximum
08:58	bartj	and then iterating through the map to check if the key is mapped to the maximum value!
08:58	cemerick	bartj: see max-key
08:58	bartj	is there a function which already does this?
08:58	bartj	cemerick, you type fast :)
08:59	cemerick	clgv: the point is to ensure that the work being done per chunk is greater than the parallelization overhead. The only way to find out what your chunk size should be is to test various chunk sizes using real data.
09:00	clgv	I definitely know how much data I have. it's N² with N depending on the problem
09:00	clgv	instance
09:04	clgv	is there an idiomatic abbreviation to create chunks?
09:05	clgv	something like (create-chunk size seq)?
09:22	choffstein	Hey all. I have a quick question. I am new to lisp and am trying to get clojure / conjure / Aquamacs / swank / slime all playing together nicely. I am using leiningan to launch a swank server and can connect from Aquamacs (slime-connect). I can even compile and execute my conjure server ... but once it runs, none of my code changes and executions (C-c C-c) seem to change the behavior of my web-server. Am I missing something
09:24	choffstein	I am making sure that run-jetty doesn't join ... but that doesn't seem to be the issue.
09:24	choffstein	*compojure, not conjure
09:24	dnolen	choffstein: what do your run-jetty line look like?
09:24	choffstein	dnolen: (run-jetty webservice {:port 8080 :join? false})
09:25	dnolen	try replacing webservice with #'webservice.
09:26	dnolen	choffstein: compojure uses ring which also has a reload handler for development which recompiles namespaces on page load.
09:26	choffstein	oh really? didn't know that. thanks ... that may be very useful
09:27	yazirian	choffstein: this may also help https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/wiki/Interactive-Development
09:27	yazirian	the magic part is the var
09:27	yazirian	so i guess i just said the same thing heh
09:28	yazirian	but that link also was really helpful to me figuring out how not to lose my repl to jetty :)
09:31	choffstein	thanks yazirian, i'll check it out
09:35	angerman	has anyone toyed with Catmull Clark subdivision? I'm having an issue with the weights.
09:36	angerman	Clojure+JReality (movie): http://t.co/nIoMXBr
09:36	angerman	The problem I'm having is that the first iteration is not convex and looks quite /strange/ so to say.
09:38	angerman	The weights are as far as I understand (n-3)/n, 2/n and 1/n. Thus the position of the old vertex has no impact on the new postition of the vertex if the vertex's valence is 3, and therfore the weight is (3-3)/3 = 0.
09:38	choffstein	Huzzah! It works!
09:38	choffstein	Thanks for the help guys.
09:39	choffstein	Now to just become a power Emacs user ... that should be easy, right ;)
09:40	angerman	choffstein: of course, emacs is a piece of cake :)
09:42	yazirian	oh absolutely, especially with paredit mode... i definitely didn't spend about three days wanting to punch my monitor directly in the parentheses, no sir! (...i got better)
09:45	danlarkin	gross names but so useful :)
09:45	jkdufair	yazirian: good luck!
10:03	lostern	What should I be using to debug java with emacs? GUD? jdibug?
10:11	raek	choffstein: my emacs workflow when developing with ring: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/4d8a1fc669a5a2df/5e754ed31361c09d?lnk=gst&q=better+work+flow#5e754ed31361c09d
10:12	choffstein	awesome! thanks
10:28	klang	raek: are you doing any testing of the web applications you develop?
10:30	raek	well, I should have done more... :-)
10:30	raek	but I have done unit tests for some middleware
10:32	klang	raek: shouldn't we all. A few months ago I was adding tests for some of the examples in abedra/clojure-web, but got sidetracked on the more complicated examples (making tests with concern for sessions were harder than a few euler problems .. :-)
10:33	klang	.but now I want to finish that work, and I am surveying the state of web-development in clojure ..
10:35	klang	.. nobody is making tests for web-applications it seems .. ring.mock is the closest I have found until now ..
10:36	raek	tests for middleware should be fairly simple if the middleware is free of side-effects
10:37	klang	true, and maybe it's a wild goose chase to make end-to-end clicking-through-the-application tests .. but it will give me some exercise ..
12:29	waxrose	Greetings all.
12:29	TimMc	ey
12:30	waxrose	TimMc, Howdy partner. :D
12:30	TimMc	I'm hoping to convince my Comp Arch prof to let me use Clojure for the semester project,
12:30	TimMc	which is an instructor set simulator for MIPS.
12:30	waxrose	ehh
12:31	waxrose	GL, hopefully he's not arrogant and open to new ideas.
12:31	TimMc	I think it'll actually be really easy, and as a bonus, I can make it reversible with hardly any extra work.
12:31	waxrose	What option would you have to do if you were not able to?
12:32	TimMc	He's a grad student, and quite a good professor. I think the limiting factor here would be whether he feels like trying to read Clojure.
12:32	TimMc	The "supported" languages are Java and C++.
12:32	waxrose	defacto
12:33	waxrose	But at least technically in some way Clojure is near that domain, so you might get away with it.
12:33	TimMc	So I'm going to write a tiny prototype and see what he thinks. He's open to different languages, and has set a deadline of March 17 for approval.
12:33	TimMc	Oh, and he has explicitly forbidden LOLCODE already. :-P
12:34	waxrose	Oh, that's coming soon. >.<
12:34	waxrose	lol
12:34	waxrose	LOLCODE haha
12:35	waxrose	What are the actual requirements of the project?
12:35	waxrose	Just any simple application?
12:36	TimMc	waxrose: https://myfiles.neu.edu/mccormack.t/EECE3230-project.pdf
12:37	waxrose	:P
12:39	waxrose	wow, this looks awesome. If only my classes actually had some "difficulty" put into them
12:39	angerman	I have a set of lists representing faces of a mesh (a b c d e). Now i'd like to find the two faces which share an edge, say, (e a). How would I go about that?
12:40	angerman	hmm. ok. maybe cycle, rest, interleave, partition.
12:40	TimMc	angerman: You have a collection of triangles (each represented as a list of vertices) and want to find adjacencies?
12:41	TimMc	I assume they're all CCW?
12:41	angerman	TimMc: kind of. not necessarily triangles though.
12:41	TimMc	OK
12:41	waxrose	TimMc, I think you could get approved, especially since he already stated he's open to the possibility. I'm sure he only wants to make sure that you can actually provide a sufficient application to meet the requirements, regardless of the language.
12:41	angerman	well, yes. the faces should be oriented consistently
12:42	angerman	,(partition 2 (interleave '(a b c d e) (rest (cycle '(a b c d e))))
12:42	clojurebot	EOF while reading
12:42	angerman	,(partition 2 (interleave '(a b c d e) (rest (cycle '(a b c d e)))))
12:42	clojurebot	((a b) (b c) (c d) (d e) (e a))
12:43	TimMc	Oh, I see -- you know two vertices and want to find the faces for it.
12:43	angerman	I know the edge.
12:44	joshua__	That project is awesome.
12:44	angerman	,(some #{'(e a)} (partition 2 (interleave '(a b c d e) (rest (cycle '(a b c d e))))))
12:44	clojurebot	(e a)
12:44	TimMc	It's a decent project, even though it's not a new application.
12:45	TimMc	I'm hoping to abstract out the logic pipeline manager, though. That could be new!
12:45	angerman	that feels a little a little heavy :/
12:45	angerman	TimMc: what Project?
12:45	TimMc	angerman: https://myfiles.neu.edu/mccormack.t/EECE3230-project.pdf
12:46	waxrose	Yeah, I've never done that before. Sounds like fun though. I may use your project and work on it on my own. :D
12:47	TimMc	I'm writing it as a collection of logic blocks and registers. Each block has dependencies on registers, a main function that processes those values, and a set of output functions that take the result of the core function to make results that can be put back in registers.
12:48	TimMc	Crap, I just remembered that there won't be a register between each consecutive set of blocks... need to rework this a bit. :-)
12:49	TimMc	angerman: So you just want to see if '(x y) is in (cycle '(a b c d e))?
12:49	angerman	yep
12:49	angerman	the approach I picked above is, well … it feels like it a lot of plumbing.
12:50	TimMc	partition has a way of getting overlapping chunks
12:50	TimMc	,(partition 2 1 '(a b c d))
12:50	angerman	TimMc: I'd still need to interleave it.
12:50	clojurebot	((a b) (b c) (c d))
12:50	angerman	ohh, nice.
12:51	TimMc	And then tack on the missing wrap-around.
12:51	angerman	hmm. still need one more element.
12:51	TimMc	,(partition 2 1 ['a] '(a b c d))
12:51	clojurebot	((a b) (b c) (c d) (d a))
12:51	TimMc	So, (partition 2 1 (first verts) verts)
12:52	angerman	yep
12:52	TimMc	Err, wrap (first verts) in a list.
12:53	amalloy	partition-all?
12:54	amalloy	oh haha that's what i get for answering without reading the whole convo so far
12:54	TimMc	amalloy: Not this time, I think.
12:54	waxrose	:)
12:54	TimMc	Amusingly, the only two times I've wanted partitioning, partition-all has not been the right answer.
12:55	amalloy	&(let [list '(a b c d)] (partition 2 1 (cons (last list) list)))
12:55	sexpbot	⟹ ((d a) (a b) (b c) (c d))
12:55	angerman	oh, hmm good to know that I messed up my cube, … it's not oriented consistently
12:56	TimMc	(Actually, either one would have worked the first time, since I was checking mod count.)
12:56	angerman	amalloy: but(!) calling last on a list takes longer htan calling first
12:56	angerman	unless i missed something… it's cons cells in my head after all.
12:56	amalloy	it looks like TimMc has come up with all the good solutions. all that's left for me to propose are bad ones, angerman
12:57	angerman	amalloy: I see. At least there are multiple solutions :D
12:57	amalloy	there's more than one way to do it...but not as many as there are in perl
12:57	TimMc	haha
12:58	waxrose	:D @ perl
12:58	angerman	perl.
12:58	waxrose	Seemed like at the RubyConf I went to last year, there were more people proposing bad solutions than good ones.
13:00	__name__	waxrose: is that a surprising thing?
13:00	waxrose	__name__, No....
13:01	waxrose	but I would expect that if you are a speaker, that your application would at least 1% work
13:01	TimMc	OK, I should split this pipeline thingy off as a separate project.
13:02	pyr	hi
13:02	waxrose	pyr, Hello. :)
13:03	waxrose	TimMc, Let me know how it goes.
13:03	waxrose	:P
13:03	__name__	waxrose: It's Ruby hipsters after all.
13:04	__name__	I wish Inkscape did not suck.
13:04	TimMc	(That's a lie, I don't know Ruby at all. I just like that word.)
13:04	waxrose	Why?
13:04	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
13:04	pyr	I'm working with a java lib that has the following prototype: public long foo(final String... bar) {
13:05	TimMc	pyr: Last arg should be passed as an array, I think, if that's what you're asking.
13:05	waxrose	I started joining the Ruby band wagon till I realized it was more band than wagon.
13:05	drewr	and reefer
13:05	pyr	i don't see how i can call it (.foo object "something")
13:05	pyr	fails
13:06	pyr	ok i'll try with an arg
13:06	pyr	s,arg,list,
13:06	TimMc	,(to-array ["hello" 5])
13:06	amalloy	pyr: String[]
13:06	clojurebot	#<Object[] [Ljava.lang.Object;@76ef7b>
13:07	amalloy	TimMc: that's no good. you want into-array
13:07	amalloy	&(into-array ["hello"])
13:07	sexpbot	⟹ #<String[] [Ljava.lang.String;@af9dc4>
13:07	TimMc	,(into-array String ["hello" "foo"])
13:07	clojurebot	#<String[] [Ljava.lang.String;@668893>
13:07	pyr	erf
13:07	TimMc	amalloy: Oh, fancy! It determines the most specific type?
13:07	amalloy	haha you wish
13:07	amalloy	it determines the first type
13:08	TimMc	:-(
13:08	amalloy	&(into-array ["Test" 1])
13:08	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: array element type mismatch
13:08	TimMc	bah
13:08	pyr	yay
13:08	pyr	got it
13:09	amalloy	TimMc: but you could write one that determines the most specific type without too much difficulty
13:10	TimMc	(defn fancy-array [arr] (into-array (gcd arr) arr)))
13:10	TimMc	:-P
13:11	TimMc	,(into-array [])
13:11	clojurebot	#<Object[] [Ljava.lang.Object;@1871392>
13:12	pyr	,(into-array ["h"])
13:12	clojurebot	#<String[] [Ljava.lang.String;@e95a23>
13:12	pyr	,(into-array String ["h"])
13:12	clojurebot	#<String[] [Ljava.lang.String;@1297ee0>
13:12	pyr	convenient
13:17	TimMc	waxrose: https://github.com/timmc/pipeline
13:17	TimMc	Long way to go.
13:18	waxrose	Well it's a start. :D
13:20	waxrose	I need to start on some Android apps I've been meaning to create. If I'm not mistaken, I think I am going to start with Moby Scheme.
13:22	waxrose	You just wrote this?
13:22	TimMc	This morning, yeah.
13:23	TimMc	It doesn't run yet, of course.
13:23	TimMc	Ugh, I'm going to need to do a topological sort or something.
13:23	TimMc	(I mean, yay!)
13:24	waxrose	lol
13:25	waxrose	Better than what I can do though. I'm still working my way through all this Lisp-oriented material I've collected.
13:26	amalloy	TimMc: what is this pipeline business?
13:27	TimMc	amalloy: For a semester project in Comp Arch, we have to write a machine code simulator.
13:27	waxrose	TimMc, I wish my classes were like that.
13:28	TimMc	I'm writing a logic pipeline utility that I can then pass all my actual data path and control path functions.
13:28	waxrose	Is this an undergrad class?
13:28	TimMc	yeah
13:28	waxrose	Big university?
13:28	TimMc	From what I understand, though, this is the best prof to teach this class in a while.
13:28	TimMc	Pretty big, I guess. Northeastern University, if you want to look it up.
13:29	waxrose	I need to transfer to Texas A&M. I attend a branch of it and we don't have any classes that require us to write a machine code simulator.
13:29	TimMc	haha
13:29	waxrose	I feel left out!
13:30	TimMc	I actually dropped this class last semester because the prof was... not good.
13:30	amalloy	waxrose: just write a compiler in your spare time
13:30	TimMc	I won't complain in specifics in a public channel.
13:30	waxrose	amalloy, I have some material on how to write a scheme compiler and a BF interpreter. I just need to go through them.
13:31	amalloy	waxrose: BF is boring. go whole hog with SNUSP
13:31	waxrose	TimMc, It's fine.
13:31	amalloy	i have a SNUSP interpreter i wrote in java, somewhere
13:32	waxrose	amalloy, Lol @ first link from google says.. "beautiful insanity".... sounds like my type of fun
13:32	TimMc	waxrose: Writing a MIPS simulator is... not new. Write something new!
13:32	amalloy	TimMc: the only CS class i ever dropped was because it was taught in lisp and i didn't get it
13:32	TimMc	aw
13:32	amalloy	the story gets more and more ironic as i get into clojure
13:33	waxrose	TimMc, I'll do it just to get it out of the way! :D
13:33	TimMc	"You'll never make it as a LISPer, amalloy!"
13:33	amalloy	srsly
13:33	TimMc	I never would have guessed. THat's pretty funny.
13:34	waxrose	amalloy, Lisp is actually the first language I've understood the first time I started reading about it.
13:34	waxrose	not sure why
13:34	amalloy	waxrose: first one i didn't get on my first try. maybe that's why it's so interesting
13:34	TimMc	Did either of you have a strong algebra background before encountering LISP?
13:34	TimMc	also, a strong programming background?
13:34	amalloy	yessss
13:35	amalloy	TimMc: i finished three semesters of calculus, diffEQ, linear algebra, and two years of java as well as years of hobby coding on the TI83/89
13:35	amalloy	before dropping out of my scheme class
13:36	TimMc	The prof of my Scheme class (Olin Shivers) warned people that having a backgorund in programming could make learning Scheme harder, but that an algebra background would help.
13:36	amalloy	interesting
13:36	TimMc	Or a math background in general, I guess.
13:36	waxrose	TimMc, I read a lot of philosophy, so logic kind of comes naturally I guess. But my background is mainly in web, so Html, JavaScript, SQL, and framework design.
13:37	TimMc	I had been using JS in a functional style before hitting Scheme, so it wasn't too hard of a transition.
13:37	amalloy	i guess i can see that
13:37	waxrose	OOP confuses me, but for some reason functional programming makes sense to me.
13:37	amalloy	heh, damn you lisp! trying to write some php and after every newline my fingers type (
13:37	waxrose	lol
13:38	Adamant	ah, Shivers
13:38	waxrose	If I would stop compiling Firefox and configuring my bash script for Ubuntu, I may actually make some time to finish reading my Lispish books.
13:38	waxrose	scripts*
13:39	TimMc	Adamant: Had him as a prof, or know him from his work?
13:39	Adamant	TimMc: know him from his work and Usenet postings
13:39	Adamant	which were hilarious
13:39	TimMc	heh
13:40	TimMc	I've read some of his rant collection. Good stuff.
13:40	Adamant	the one about firearms and academia was a creative writing classic
13:40	waxrose	TimMc, My previous school focused on Cold Fusion. :/
13:40	Adamant	UNCLEAN! UNCLEAN!
13:40	Adamant	:P
13:40	amac	waxrose: dude, eww
13:40	waxrose	Tell me about it.
13:40	Adamant	it's ok. my first language was Visual Basic.
13:41	waxrose	haha
13:41	amalloy	Adamant: i tried visual basic after writing a bunch of TI-Basic. confused the crap out of me
13:41	waxrose	I didn't actually pay attention in the classes, so I don't remember anything from CF.
13:41	Adamant	I shit you not. fortunately I didn't absorb too much
13:41	amac	my first was qbasic...
13:41	Adamant	amalloy: I bet
13:41	TimMc	For anyone who isn't familiar with Shivers' excellent sense of humor, read the Acknowledgements section of the Scheme Shell manual: http://www.scsh.net/docu/html/man.html
13:41	Adamant	Visual Basic was it's own kind of weird thing
13:42	TimMc	TI-89 was my first, if you don't count screwing around with DOS batch files.
13:42	TimMc	I spent a lot of time bored in "pre-calc" class.
13:42	amalloy	TimMc: i actually found the TI-83 a lot more conducive to writing games than the 89
13:43	waxrose	I remember people playing Doom on their TI-xx.
13:43	amalloy	though i eventually invented OOP on the 89 without knowing what it was called :P
13:43	TimMc	amalloy: Me too!
13:44	TimMc	Then I learned about Java and kicked myself.
13:44	waxrose	lol
13:44	amac	sadly, there's no qbasic channel on freenode
13:44	waxrose	I knew a little Java prior to finding Clojure, mainly because I've done mobile web apps before.
13:44	amalloy	amac: /join #qbasic. now there is!
13:44	waxrose	lol
13:44	amac	I just did
13:45	amac	now I must build a thriving community
13:45	waxrose	GL bro
13:45	amac	hah
13:45	amalloy	waxrose: i found the cvs repo for my SNUSP interpreter if you're interested
13:45	Adamant	amalloy: that happens all the time. lots of assembly programmers sort of informally figured out the basics of structuredimperative programming on their own
13:46	waxrose	amalloy, Sure! Also, why SNUSP and not BF?
13:46	amalloy	waxrose: snusp is BF but with more stuff
13:46	amalloy	and the 2d programming model is like whoa hilarious
13:46	waxrose	more features
13:46	fliebel	amalloy: 2D programming?
13:46	waxrose	Shoot me the link, I'll add it to my list of things to read.
13:46	amalloy	fliebel: a snusp program is a diagram
13:47	amalloy	waxrose: i have to remember how to use cvs first
13:47	waxrose	lol
13:47	fliebel	amalloy: I just dropped in… googles snusp
13:47	waxrose	I know how.
13:48	waxrose	-_- and now bzr
13:48	amalloy	waxrose: yeah but you don't have ssh access to my server :P
13:48	waxrose	oh
13:48	waxrose	lmao
13:48	amalloy	i checked it out, exporting to github shortly
13:48	TimMc	Adamant: Shivers mentioned being called into the Dean's office after that Acknowledgements section -- he said that's when he found out it's really hard to convince someone you're not crazy.
13:48	waxrose	kk
13:50	amalloy	https://github.com/amalloy/snusp
13:50	waxrose	TimMc, That is an awesome page. haha
13:50	waxrose	"I did it all by myself!"
13:50	amalloy	no guarantees about how useful it is, i haven't looked at the source for ~3 years
13:50	TimMc	waxrose: Now imagine how new students feel when they stumble across that page. :-P
13:50	waxrose	amalloy, I like junk code, scrapped projects.
13:51	waxrose	TimMc, I would imagine that would motivate them!
13:52	amalloy	omg that is quite a page
13:52	phenom_	hey guys, if i have some peice of data that doesn't need to be udpated in conjuction with other data in a multithreaded context, I can use an atom versus a ref correct?
13:52	waxrose	amalloy, I followed you so I won't forget to clone it.
13:52	phenom_	like in this example: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2760017/producer-consumer-with-qualifications
13:55	Adamant	TimMc: oh yeah.
13:56	amalloy	fliebel: https://github.com/amalloy/snusp/blob/master/resources/add.snusp is a program for adding together two numbers read from stdin. it's been a long time, but it looks to me like they're both two-digit numbers
13:58	amalloy	oh durrr no they're single digit
13:59	fliebel	amalloy: Whoa, that looks like a monster of code!
14:00	amalloy	fliebel: tbh i have no idea what the whole bottom half of the program is for
14:00	waxrose	amalloy, that looks like a tractor or some farming equipment. >.<
14:00	clojurebot	amalloy: therfor I return [previous] if rest is empty
14:00	fliebel	amalloy: Could it be the actual adder?
14:01	amalloy	fliebel: no, the adder is the first loop on the left, starting with ~/==?
14:01	amalloy	er, !/==?
14:01	cemerick	amalloy: thank you for alerting me to SNUSP
14:01	waxrose	Interesting language.
14:01	waxrose	SNUSP looks like it will be fun.
14:02	amalloy	someone has an interactive snusp debugger/interpreter in javascript which could help explain what that enormous pile of -\!?/ is for
14:03	amalloy	i think it may be a copy instruction: "copy memory location N to location N+1"
14:03	klang	TimMc: what other material are you MISP project (if I may be so bold)
14:04	waxrose	amalloy, The hello world for SNUPS looks crazy.
14:05	amalloy	waxrose: iirc any BF program can be run as a SNUSP program: SNUSP is the C++ to BF's C
14:05	klang	TimMc: .. inject a "using for the" somewhere logical in that last sentence, please
14:05	amalloy	so you could use the BF hello
14:05	waxrose	What is a good beginning reference for SNUSP?
14:06	waxrose	amalloy, Thanks for clarifying.
14:06	amalloy	http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/SNUSP ?
14:08	amalloy	or maybe http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?SnuspLanguage
14:09	cemerick	I always go for esolangs: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/SNUSP
14:09	amalloy	ANYWAY sorry for bringing such a disgusting language into #clojure, i don't even remember how it came up
14:09	cemerick	But, that's only because I'm a dilettante :-P
14:09	amalloy	cemerick: my first link seems to be a mirror of the esolangs
14:10	cemerick	amalloy: don't apologize, I was happy to learn of it
14:10	amalloy	but yours is certainly canonical
14:10	amalloy	cemerick: it's really a psuedo-apology
14:10	amalloy	i'll probably tweet this shit up too, now that i've put it on github
14:10	cemerick	at first, I thought it was logic programming via ascii circuit diagram
14:11	waxrose	lol
14:11	waxrose	I think it was brought up because I mentioned BF.
14:12	amalloy	cemerick: it almost is
14:14	Adamant	2-D programming is neat. so is heavily Unicoded programming and math equation simulation with ASCII/Unicode type stuff
14:16	cemerick	Even better is programming that doesn't rely upon text at all.
14:16	cemerick	But, I'm repeating myself now.
14:21	amalloy	waxrose: ugh. i just went to all the work of running cvs2git on my repo, to discover that it has only two commits anyway. one with all the code, another in which i add a sample program to the resources/ dir
14:22	waxrose	:/
14:23	waxrose	gotta love it
14:23	amalloy	but at least i learned how to use cvs2git. now i can run that on all my old repos
14:23	waxrose	haha
14:23	waxrose	true
14:23	waxrose	See, some good came out of it.
14:23	amalloy	indeed
14:26	waxrose	I'm glad Google finally accepted me into their storage preview. Now I can start my Clojure web application on GAE.
14:27	waxrose	Any of you using a web framework?
14:28	waxrose	I think I'm going to go with Compojure.
14:29	amac	I don't see compojure as a framework so much as a sexiness layer for ring
14:30	raek	I see it as a route library for ring
14:30	raek	lol
14:30	semperos	+1 for Moustache
14:30	raek	I like this overview http://www.glenstampoultzis.net/blog/clojure-web-infrastructure/
14:32	waxrose	lol
14:32	raek	inc for the modularity of the clojure web stack
14:33	amalloy	(inc clojure)
14:33	sexpbot	⟹ 3
14:33	waxrose	Which SQl implementation is the most popular?
14:33	companion_cube	mysql, postgresql...
14:34	waxrose	>.>
14:35	waxrose	ClojureSQl
14:35	raek	ClojureQL seems popular
14:37	waxrose	amalloy, Probably not holding the shift long enough.
14:37	waxrose	>.<
14:37	waxrose	I didn't even realize. haha
14:37	waxrose	I type too fast, so I have a tendency to typo a lot.
14:38	waxrose	AND not notice.
14:42	LauJensen	raek: its the bomb :)
14:49	TimMc	klang: The MIPS thingy will need the logic pipeline and an extremely simple assembler. Oh, and some logging, I guess.
14:54	klang	TimMc: I was wondering if you were following a book or more .. custom-designed course notes?
14:56	TimMc	klang: It's for a class. We're using the classic textbook Computer Organization and Design.
14:57	TimMc	I don't know the material yet for the 5-stage pipeline architecture we'll be using, but I think the book describes it.
14:59	klang	TimMc: that's probably a very good guess :-)
15:00	Adamant	TimMc: suggestion - if you want to get more into the hardware end, Computer Architecture by the same guys is also good
15:00	Adamant	COD is partially a rehash of CA, partially a simplification, and partially new material
15:00	TimMc	Adamant: Thanks, but I really don't. :-P
15:00	Adamant	fair enough :)
15:00	bartj	If there is a hash-map like: {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}
15:01	bartj	what is the idiomatic way to create: {:a 10 :b 20 :c 30}
15:01	TimMc	The prof's work is vaguely interesting, though -- he's doing software (kernel) design for many-core architectures.
15:01	bartj	instead of doing: (zipmap (keys ) (map #(* % 10) (vals))
15:01	amalloy	bartj: fmap is one way, or clojure.walk/walk should work
15:02	TimMc	,(apply concat (seq {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}))
15:02	clojurebot	(:a 1 :b 2 :c 3)
15:03	klang	TimMc: I like your use of the word "vaguely", there .. heh, anyway, thanks for the ref and good luck on the project, it looks interesting.
15:03	TimMc	That's probably not lazy, though, if you care.
15:03	amalloy	&(walk (fn [[k v]] [k (* 10 v)]) identity {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})
15:03	sexpbot	⟹ {:a 10, :b 20, :c 30}
15:03	amalloy	TimMc: maps can't be lazy anyway
15:03	TimMc	bartj: Sorry, I missed the multiplication part.
15:04	bartj	er, that's fine!
15:04	raek	,(let [m {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}] (into (empty m) (for [[k v] m] [k (* 10 v)])))
15:04	clojurebot	{:a 10, :b 20, :c 30}
15:06	amalloy	raek: i wonder why clojure.walk/walk doesn't just use (empty blah)
15:06	amalloy	&(empty [1 2 3])
15:06	sexpbot	⟹ []
15:07	amalloy	cause it looks like the whole thing could be (defn walk [inner outer form] (outer (into (empty form) (map inner form))))
15:08	raek	or perhaps...
15:08	raek	,(let [m {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}] (into (empty m) (map (juxt key (comp (partial * 10) val)) m)))
15:08	clojurebot	{:a 10, :b 20, :c 30}
15:08	raek	that one's for you, amalloy
15:08	amalloy	laugh
15:09	TimMc	That is much more readable!
15:10	TimMc	Oh man, I forgot that key and val were functions.
15:12	amalloy	TimMc: you don't really need them. you can use first and second
15:13	amalloy	raek: i'm sad to see "m" appearing twice. you could surely do better with something like (apply into ((juxt empty (partial map ...)) m))
15:14	TimMc	amalloy: You, sir, are an instigator.
15:15	waxrose	lol
15:15	amalloy	TimMc: point-free ftw
15:15	TimMc	It's really a form of golf, isn't it?
15:16	amalloy	yes, except that you don't get shorter code
15:20	dnolen	fliebel: finally I found a clue, https://gist.github.com/860912 for the arithmetic issue.
15:29	fliebel	dnolen: Great you found something! I don't really understand the gist though.
15:31	fliebel	What is f? What is letrec? Where is the hyphen in cond-e?
15:31	amalloy	fliebel: do you have a link to your gist with the take-random or whatever it was?
15:32	dnolen	fliebel: basically miniKanren has some carefully placed thunk'ing. But I didn't understand why it's required. Many programs work w/o it. pluso didn't however. But pluso execution is too dense to really 'see' why we need it. I needed a minimal case that I can actually understand.
15:33	fliebel	amalloy: "or whatever it was" You're just asking for a random gist?
15:33	TimMc	fliebel: letrec allows the val-expr to be evaluated in a context where the name is bound.
15:34	amalloy	laugh
15:34	amalloy	fliebel: no, the take-randnth thing
15:34	amalloy	couldn't remember what we were calling it at the time
15:34	fliebel	amalloy: One moment please… Trying to understand dnolen and TimMc first.
15:35	TimMc	It's just a fancy way to create recursive expressions.
15:35	TimMc	s/fancy //
15:35	sexpbot	<TimMc> It's just a way to create recursive expressions.
15:35	dnolen	fliebel: the gist is from the latest Scheme miniKanren.
15:36	sritchie_	hey all -- has anyone here had success with marginalia 0.5.0?
15:36	sritchie_	I'm getting this error, and am not sure how to debug -- clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol
15:36	dnolen	looks like a good read, A Schemer's View of Monads, by none other than Daniel P. Friedman, http://www.cs.indiana.edu/cgi-pub/c311/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=manymonads.pdf
15:37	fliebel	dnolen: What is thunk'ing in this context? Does it has anything to do with ChunkedSeq?
15:38	dnolen	fliebel: no it just means delaying a computation by wrapping it in function that takes no args.
15:38	fliebel	ah
15:39	fliebel	amalloy: https://gist.github.com/805747
15:39	amalloy	fliebel: there it is, thanks
15:40	fliebel	amalloy: Why do you need it?
15:41	amalloy	fliebel: came across a question on SO about functional shuffling techniques
15:47	amalloy	fliebel: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3944556/what-if-anything-is-wrong-with-this-shuffling-algorithm-and-how-can-i-know/5238130#5238130 if you're interested
15:49	TimMc	waxrose: Here's a cute little utility I wrote for managing state updates in a GUI program I wrote: https://github.com/timmc/CS4300-HW3/blob/master/src/timmcHW3/cascade.clj
15:49	raek	sritchie_: you only get that when running marginalia and not otherwise? is the exception coming from within marginalia or your code?
15:49	waxrose	TimMc, kk, checking it out now
15:49	TimMc	waxrose: I'll be using some of the same techniques to make the pipeline utility, since both involve updating the nodes of DAGs.
15:49	sritchie_	raek: just marginalia
15:50	sritchie_	my code compiles fine
15:50	sritchie_	I thought it had to do with the way I was declaring my namespaces -- I'll post an example of what I mean -- but the change didn't fix anything
15:50	TimMc	(cascade.clj is for side-effects; the pipelineis all functional)
15:52	sritchie_	raek: here's a gist of the error I get, and my namespace change (which didn't affect the outcome): https://gist.github.com/861019
15:55	raek	hrm. maybe it's a bug in marginalia
15:56	brehaut	morning everyone
15:57	TimMc	hey, brehaut
15:58	fliebel	amalloy: There are images of the graphs on my blog if you want.
15:59	waxrose	TimMc, What is the purpose of DAGs? I believe this is the first I've been introduced to it. Just simply to organize nodes on a graph?
16:00	brehaut	waxrose: walking a DAG is much simpler than walking a general graph; you dont have to worry about tracking visited nodes; it makes many algorithms much simpler
16:01	waxrose	hmm
16:02	sritchie_	raek: I'll post an issue later today
16:05	amalloy	waxrose: a DAG is very similar to a tree. there's one additional constraint that trees have, namely that no vertex can have two incoming edges (two parents), but mostly they're the same
16:05	amalloy	and trees are substantially easier to work with than generalized graphs
16:06	__name__	amalloy: Do you have a blog?
16:08	waxrose	amalloy, Thanks for explaining further.
16:08	brehaut	waxrose: DAGs also have useful properties for constructing concurrent systems
16:09	brehaut	waxrose: each node in your graph is a computation that depends on the results of the nodes that feed into it
16:09	amalloy	__name__: http://hubpages.com/profile/amalloy is the closest thing
16:10	__name__	Thanks :)
16:10	__name__	I subscribed to your rss :)
16:10	amalloy	enjoy!
16:12	TimMc	waxrose: In my program, the rendered image depends on both the user data (what elements they have put on the canvas) and also on where the mouse is hovering, which in turn also depends on the user data. https://github.com/timmc/CS4300-HW3/blob/master/src/timmcHW3/core.clj#L547
16:12	waxrose	ah!
16:13	waxrose	Okay, thanks for explaining guys. Makes more sense now.
16:13	TimMc	Now, I could either propagate changes in the user data up through both those chains each time it changes, or I could recompute the rendering only when it is asked for. Either way, I have both a good chance of messing up the updates (due to complexity) or of recomputing things unnecessarily (if there are multiple paths back to it.)
16:14	TimMc	I chose to create something to manage those dependencies and only call the updater thunks when necessary.
16:15	TimMc	By the way cascade.clj enforces a DAG by requiring that each new node can only reference the nodes that have already been added. That's sufficient.
16:17	TimMc	waxrose: Elsewhere in core.clj, you'll see that I call (dirty! :udata) to mark a node and all dependencies as dirty, and (clean!) (after each event handler) to run all update code necessary to mark the :all node clean.
16:18	TimMc	The :all node is a hack; I should have a clean-all function in cascade that knows how to get the leaf nodes.
16:19	waxrose	And you will be doing similar to the pipeline application? or am I confused?
16:20	waxrose	some what similar*
16:20	TimMc	Sort of similar. The pipeline itself is pure functional, so I can probably use memoization.
16:21	waxrose	Or rather, applying the similar concepts I mean.
16:22	TimMc	In any case, I'll have cases where logic block A depends on B and C, which both depend on D -- but as a combinational circuit, there will be no cycles. That's a DAG, so I'll need the same concepts.
16:23	waxrose	Ah, okay.
16:23	waxrose	I vaguely remember DAGs but can't remember from where.
16:23	waxrose	refresher course haha
16:26	TimMc	Bonus: Look up "topological sort". It's a useful companion to DAGs.
16:28	waxrose	Thanks, I'll look into it after my Robotics class.
16:41	amalloy	TimMc: this reminds me of partially-ordered sets
16:57	TimMc	amalloy: I suppose so. I've never studied them, though.
16:58	amalloy	they're a handy tool for the sort of thing you seem to be doing, like job scheduling
17:04	semperos	brehaut: you still around?
17:04	brehaut	semperos: yeah
17:04	semperos	brief pm?
17:10	scottj	when threading, is there a better way to have a side-effecting form that ignores but passes the threaded value than this (-> 4 ((fn [sofar] (Thread/sleep 10) sofar)) ...) ?
17:11	brehaut	scottj: that isnt going to do what you want
17:12	brehaut	oh actually, it might, but its a horrible hack :P
17:13	scottj	it works, I guess this might be better:
17:13	scottj	,(-> 4 (->> (do (Thread/sleep 10))) -)
17:13	clojurebot	-4
17:16	__name__	&(. Runtime exec "echo random stuff")
17:16	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: exec
17:19	brehaut	scottj: by threading do you mean capital T threads or the -> macro?
17:20	scottj	->
17:20	scottj	sorry my side-effect example made that confusing :)
17:24	brehaut	yeah it did :)
17:38	semperos	clj-record has the init-model macro, which utilizes the namespace it finds itself under when called and uses that for many of its functions
17:38	semperos	I have a similar need, to use a namespace for various and sundry things
17:38	semperos	is the way clj-record handles that need idiomatic? are there alternatives?
17:43	amalloy	scottj: doto?
17:47	scottj	amalloy: I don't think that's a solution
17:48	amalloy	yeah, if you want to totally ignore i guess do is your best bet
17:48	amalloy	but eg ##(-> 1 inc (doto println) inc)
17:48	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Bad binding form, expected vector
17:48	amalloy	huh
17:49	amalloy	,(-> 1 inc (doto println) inc)
17:49	clojurebot	2
17:49	clojurebot	3
17:49	amalloy	sigh. one more thing to fix in the sandbox i guess
17:52	patrkris	what are people mostly using for HTML in clojure web apps? enlive? hiccup?
17:53	semperos	+1 for enlive
17:53	brehaut	patrkris: i dont think anyone has done a survey
17:53	brehaut	they are both popular though
17:54	semperos	if you want to write your HTML in Clojure data structures, then use hiccup
17:54	brehaut	if i had to guess though, i would say hiccup is more common due to a) more gradual learning curve and b) links to compojure
17:54	brehaut	patrkris: but i use enlive myself
17:55	patrkris	i read somewhere that cgrand is cooking up something for filling in data in html forms with enlive
17:55	patrkris	something i think i bred
17:56	patrkris	*need - effin iPhone
17:56	lpetit	patrkris: I would invest in enlive.
17:56	brehaut	patrkris: i believe there is something like that in the roadmap
17:57	patrkris	lpetit: care to elaborate?
17:57	lpetit	patrkris: I like the concept more.
17:58	patrkris	lpetit: I think I agree
17:58	scottj	they're not mutually exclusive are they? can't you write your html in hiccup and then use enlive to stick stuff in it?
17:58	patrkris	i think you can
17:58	semperos	it's a bit round-about, as you're going from hiccup-data-structure to HTML string to Enlive data structure
17:58	lpetit	probably
17:59	semperos	but yes, you can, i've done it in places where I had small amounts of HTML to generate and just wanted to use hiccup to feed enlive
17:59	brehaut	patrkris: i think enlive does a better job handling separation of concerns, and is a more expressive tool overall (you can process content as well as generate it)
17:59	lpetit	you also probably can use hiccup in some places, and enlive in other places, in the same app
18:00	lpetit	And investing in enlive also opens the door of xml transformation, selection, etc.
18:00	patrkris	brehaut: i agree - and I think I prefer writing HTML in HTML
18:01	patrkris	lpetit: any advice/tips/tricks on handling HTML forms with enlive?
18:02	lpetit	patrkris: no, sorry, that's why I said "I would". I have not written webapps recently
18:02	brehaut	patrkris: that is actually the killer feature for me; i write my html in textmate (all the rest of my development is in emacs) and i use the built in preview that keeps up to date with my content with out having to have a web server in between
18:02	patrkris	ok
18:02	patrkris	exactly, brehaut
18:04	patrkris	i am sorry to admit I come from an asp.net background, where we have stuff like viewstate that helps automatically repopulating form fields on postback
18:04	semperos	if you're looking to deal with forms (fill out and submit), you can use Java's HtmlUnit headless browser
18:04	semperos	if you're not opposed to graphical browser, you can also use WebDriver to do the same
18:05	patrkris	semperos: not that, but thanks :)
18:05	semperos	on the front of authoring forms, the Sandbar library has things to add
18:06	patrkris	yeah, but as far as I know, it generates the HTML for you, given a form spec in Clojure?
18:07	lpetit	patrkris: please help me shake out this (it's a little bit far from what I've done recently). Is it possible to describe the postback problem in a few sentences ?
18:08	weavejester	Hi folks
18:08	patrkris	weavejester: just the man - we're talking about enlive vs hiccup
18:08	patrkris	and web forms in general
18:08	weavejester	You can probably guess where I fall in that debate ;)
18:08	weavejester	Well... I guess it really depends on what you want to do.
18:09	patrkris	i'm thinking about forms specifically
18:09	patrkris	e.g. repopulating form fields on postback
18:10	weavejester	I've been meaning to add in a binding form to Hiccup to do that automatically
18:10	weavejester	Something like...
18:10	patrkris	but also other concerns, such as validation, which I believe you had in compojure once
18:11	weavejester	(with-params {:x "x"} (text-field :x))
18:11	scottj	sandbar definitely has some validation stuff
18:11	patrkris	(i'm a slow writer on an iPhone)
18:11	scottj	weavejester: didn't pre-split compojure have that?
18:12	weavejester	Yeah. pre-split compojure had something like a with-params macro. Not sure if that was the name.
18:12	weavejester	It also had some validation, but it wasn't very good.
18:12	patrkris	scottj: yeah, but I think sandbar wants to generate specific html for you?
18:13	weavejester	I've been thinking about creating a functional validation library.
18:13	scottj	patrkris: I don't know
18:13	patrkris	weavejester: the form element functions were to tightly coupled to validation?
18:13	weavejester	I think a lot of my early stuff was too tightly-coupled.
18:13	lpetit	Hmm, from the example I'm seeing, sandbar form validation doesn't help a lot to separate concerns ?
18:13	scottj	weavejester: did you ever take a stab at csrf protection?
18:13	weavejester	Too used to OOP
18:13	weavejester	Oh
18:14	weavejester	No, I forgot about CSRF middleware
18:14	lpetit	call to db/find-user inside the form declaration, etc.
18:15	patrkris	lpetit: my impression also
18:15	scottj	weavejester: ok, if you have the time and inclination I'll definitely upgrade from .4 for that :)
18:15	weavejester	scottj: I'll try and get it done this week
18:15	weavejester	It should be pretty straightforward
18:15	weavejester	I have a quick question unrelated to web forms and validation
18:16	weavejester	Given that fn is a special form...
18:16	weavejester	it would probably be a bad idea to override it, right?
18:16	amalloy	weavejester: if it were actually a special form it would be impossible to override
18:16	amalloy	but it's a macro somewhere that reduces to fn*
18:17	weavejester	Yeah, but it's listed as a special form in the docs
18:17	weavejester	I was making a macro that turns a template into a function.
18:17	amalloy	yeah, the docs in my experience mostly lie about special forms :P
18:17	weavejester	Like: (template/fn [x] "foo<% x %>")
18:17	weavejester	Which is equivalent to: (fn [x] (str "foo" x))
18:18	weavejester	But even though I can override fn, should I?
18:18	amalloy	i'd just call it template
18:18	amalloy	or template-fn or fn-template or...
18:18	weavejester	Well, I also have (template/eval "foo<% x %>" {:x "bar"})
18:19	weavejester	Which is equal to "foobar"
18:19	amalloy	for one, naming it fn will make it possible for someone to (use) your namespace without resolving conflicts with c.core
18:19	amalloy	*impossible
18:19	weavejester	Yeah, but clojure.string also shouldn't be :used
18:20	patrkris	later guys
18:20	weavejester	cya
18:21	weavejester	I like the idea of using foo/bar over foo-bar
18:21	weavejester	Because users can potentially shorten it
18:21	weavejester	And it seems more idiomatic
18:22	amalloy	weavejester: you're probably right
18:22	amalloy	though of course users could shorten it anyway with :use/:rename
18:22	weavejester	true
18:22	weavejester	I guess I was thinking of functions like clojure.set/join and clojure.string/join
18:23	weavejester	The function name is very generic
18:23	weavejester	It's just the namespace that distinguishes the use
18:23	amalloy	in my head, those are okay because there are already existing uses of "join" to mean both of those things
18:23	brehaut	weavejester: i think that is sound
18:23	brehaut	(not that my opinion carries any weight)
18:24	raek	,`fn
18:25	clojurebot	clojure.core/fn
18:25	amalloy	,`fn*
18:25	clojurebot	fn*
18:25	weavejester	Yeah, though there is a problem in extend-type and extend-protocol
18:25	weavejester	They have 'fn, rather than `fn
18:25	weavejester	In their code generation
18:26	weavejester	I'm trying to decide if that's a bug, or if I'm abusing fn :)
18:27	amalloy	could be both :)
18:27	weavejester	Haha - true
19:13	TimMc	Gah, I keep typing guthub.com -- pretty sure I don't want to see whatever's there.
19:13	technomancy	I type guthub all the time
19:13	technomancy	on purpose though
19:13	technomancy	it's a redirect
19:14	TimMc	Oh good.
19:14	technomancy	carry on.
19:26	brehaut	is there an stdlib equivalent to (defn first-of [arguments fns] (first (keep #(apply % arguments) fns)))
19:26	brehaut	?
19:26	brehaut	(and if not, what is a better name for that)
19:29	brehaut	where (first-of [{:b 1}] [:a :b :c]) => 1
19:49	fstephe	hello?
19:49	clojurebot	BUENOS DING DONG DIDDLY DIOS, fRaUline fstephe
19:49	fstephe	Sorry this is my first time on IRC
19:49	fstephe	I have found what looks like a bug in the contains? functiopn
19:50	TimMc	fstephe: Perhaps because contains? is ill-named
19:50	fstephe	ah, ok
19:50	technomancy	clojurebot: contains?
19:50	clojurebot	contains? is for checking whether a collection has a value for a given key. If you want to find out whether a value exists in a Collection (in linear time!), use the java method .contains
19:50	fstephe	ok, but I am checking for the presence of a Number in set
19:51	technomancy	ah yeah, that's a subtle JVM interop question
19:51	TimMc	fstephe: Ooh, is this an int vs. long problem?
19:51	fstephe	a hashset specifically
19:51	fstephe	haha
19:51	fstephe	it is
19:51	technomancy	Java's hashing semantics are all shot to hell.
19:51	fstephe	it is the BigInt vs long
19:51	technomancy	when it comes to numerics
19:51	fstephe	yes, it is true that Rich has made a really heroic effort to unify the numbers
19:52	technomancy	it's somewhat fixed in 1.3 since 1.3 only uses Java's semantics if you do .contains
20:05	__name__	(Tomorrow I will propose changing ( to \ and ) to / in the Clojure syntax!)
20:05	TimMc	__name__: UK?
20:05	__name__	TimMc: Nope, AT.
20:05	TimMc	?
20:05	__name__	Austria.
20:05	TimMc	Oh jeez, yeah, you should get to sleep.
20:06	__name__	\+ 1 2 3/
20:07	__name__	Bye.
21:22	phenom_	I've got a function that takes 2 parameters, the second of which can either be a string or a hashmap .. should I do the instance check myself or use a multimethod?
21:22	phenom_	I've got a function that takes 2 parameters, the second of which can either be a string or a hashmap .. should I do the instance check myself or use a multimethod?
21:23	brehaut	phenom_: depends if you need / want it to be extensible
21:23	brehaut	phenom_: depends if you need / want it to be extensible
21:34	TimMc	phenom_: You should be able to turn it into a multimethod later.
21:34	TimMc	phenom_: You should be able to turn it into a multimethod later.
21:42	ossareh	hola clojurians
21:42	ossareh	hola clojurians
21:42	ossareh	hope to see some of y'all at the SF meetup tomorrow!
21:42	ossareh	hope to see some of y'all at the SF meetup tomorrow!
22:03	amalloy	ossareh: you'll be waiting a long time. try coming on thursday instead of tomorrow :)
22:03	amalloy	ossareh: you'll be waiting a long time. try coming on thursday instead of tomorrow :)
22:04	amalloy	provided that much, however, you'll see me there
22:04	amalloy	provided that much, however, you'll see me there
22:04	TimMc	Maybe ossareh is east of the Atlantic, but plans to fly to SF. :-)
22:04	TimMc	Maybe ossareh is east of the Atlantic, but plans to fly to SF. :-)
22:05	amalloy	i did consider that
22:05	amalloy	i did consider that
22:05	waxrose	Finally back home.
22:05	waxrose	Finally back home.
22:06	TimMc	waxrose: I am almost done writing pipeline.clj!
22:06	TimMc	waxrose: I am almost done writing pipeline.clj!
22:07	TimMc	THen comes the debugging, which will take a while. I haven't even written any tests yet,
22:07	TimMc	THen comes the debugging, which will take a while. I haven't even written any tests yet,
22:07	TimMc	because I have been scrapping and rewriting the internals of the pipeline itself.
22:07	TimMc	because I have been scrapping and rewriting the internals of the pipeline itself.
22:07	TimMc	(Stupid dangling commas forcing me to add another clause.)
22:07	TimMc	(Stupid dangling commas forcing me to add another clause.)
22:08	waxrose	TimMc, Woot! You uploaded it?
22:08	waxrose	TimMc, Woot! You uploaded it?
22:08	TimMc	Not yet.
22:08	TimMc	Not yet.
22:08	hippiehunter	anyone got an suggestions for how to debug "Unreadable form", it seems to be related to reloading namespaces in the repl.... first time through it works fine but after that its a crap shoot with each :reload-all
22:08	hippiehunter	anyone got an suggestions for how to debug "Unreadable form", it seems to be related to reloading namespaces in the repl.... first time through it works fine but after that its a crap shoot with each :reload-all
22:08	TimMc	It feels silly to commit when I'm so close to having it even compile.
22:08	TimMc	It feels silly to commit when I'm so close to having it even compile.
22:08	TimMc	hippiehunter: Does it show you what was unreadable?
22:08	TimMc	hippiehunter: Does it show you what was unreadable?
22:09	amalloy	&(read-string (pr-str ns))
22:09	amalloy	&(read-string (pr-str ns))
22:09	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unreadable form
22:09	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unreadable form
22:09	hippiehunter	no, also the stack trace is crap since its in a lazy seq
22:09	hippiehunter	no, also the stack trace is crap since its in a lazy seq
22:10	TimMc	amalloy: I think I am about to use the replace function!
22:10	TimMc	amalloy: I think I am about to use the replace function!
22:11	TimMc	I still think it is terribly named, though.
22:11	TimMc	I still think it is terribly named, though.
22:11	waxrose	Hmm, looks like Oracle will be at my school on thursday.
22:11	waxrose	Hmm, looks like Oracle will be at my school on thursday.
22:12	waxrose	I wonder if Oracle is doing any Clojure.
22:12	waxrose	I wonder if Oracle is doing any Clojure.
22:16	brehaut	waxrose: unless there is a provable link between anything and charging huge fees for it, oracle is bound to not be interested
22:16	brehaut	waxrose: unless there is a provable link between anything and charging huge fees for it, oracle is bound to not be interested
22:17	waxrose	brehaut, Sounds reasonable. Doesn't hurt to ask though when they visit.
22:17	waxrose	brehaut, Sounds reasonable. Doesn't hurt to ask though when they visit.
22:17	amalloy	well done, brehaut. i couldn't think of anything cynical enough to say about the possibility
22:17	amalloy	well done, brehaut. i couldn't think of anything cynical enough to say about the possibility
22:18	amalloy	waxrose: make sure to bring an index card with cloJure clearly spelled out as they may think you mean closure :P
22:18	amalloy	waxrose: make sure to bring an index card with cloJure clearly spelled out as they may think you mean closure :P
22:18	waxrose	amalloy, lmao
22:18	waxrose	amalloy, lmao
22:18	waxrose	good idea
22:18	waxrose	good idea
22:27	TimMc	Grrr, github is down.
22:27	TimMc	Grrr, github is down.
22:33	waxrose	TimMc, meh
22:33	waxrose	TimMc, meh
22:33	amalloy	TimMc: it's like hearing there's no santa claus
22:33	amalloy	TimMc: it's like hearing there's no santa claus
22:33	waxrose	lol
22:33	waxrose	lol
22:33	TimMc	But they've got a fun interactive 500 page!
22:33	TimMc	But they've got a fun interactive 500 page!
22:34	waxrose	They could at least have the catopus image smile at us
22:34	waxrose	They could at least have the catopus image smile at us
22:34	waxrose	or the unicorn
22:34	waxrose	or the unicorn
22:34	amalloy	waxrose: octocat
22:34	amalloy	waxrose: octocat
22:35	brehaut	is it still oatmeally?
22:35	brehaut	is it still oatmeally?
22:35	waxrose	lol
22:35	waxrose	lol
22:35	TimMc	Well, I'll push in the morning. G'night!
22:35	TimMc	Well, I'll push in the morning. G'night!
22:37	waxrose	night
22:37	waxrose	night
23:07	waxrose	And it's back up.
23:07	waxrose	And it's back up.
23:14	amalloy	if anyone's interested (waxrose, fliebel), i figured out what the bottom half of that snusp program is doing
23:14	amalloy	if anyone's interested (waxrose, fliebel), i figured out what the bottom half of that snusp program is doing
23:14	waxrose	Sure
23:14	waxrose	Sure
23:15	amalloy	it converts the internal number holding the sum (say, 15), into two separate numbers, one for each digit in base 10 (so, 1...5)
23:15	amalloy	it converts the internal number holding the sum (say, 15), into two separate numbers, one for each digit in base 10 (so, 1...5)
23:18	amalloy	amusingly, it only lets you type two single-digit numbers, so the sum "can't" be larger than 18
23:18	amalloy	amusingly, it only lets you type two single-digit numbers, so the sum "can't" be larger than 18
23:18	amalloy	but it happily converts anything to a number by subtracting 0x30, so you can add D+H (20+24) and it will print 44
23:18	amalloy	but it happily converts anything to a number by subtracting 0x30, so you can add D+H (20+24) and it will print 44
23:21	waxrose	Sorry if I respond late, arguing over a group assignment online.
23:21	waxrose	Sorry if I respond late, arguing over a group assignment online.
23:23	phenom_	is there any put-if-absent function on maps ?
23:23	phenom_	is there any put-if-absent function on maps ?
23:23	clojurebot	http://www.math.chalmers.se/~rjmh/Papers/whyfp.pdf
23:23	clojurebot	http://www.math.chalmers.se/~rjmh/Papers/whyfp.pdf
23:25	amalloy	phenom_: ninjudd has one in his clojure-useful library
23:25	amalloy	phenom_: ninjudd has one in his clojure-useful library
23:25	phenom_	(defn put-if-absent [map key val] (if (contains? map key) map (assoc map key val))) i guess...
23:25	phenom_	(defn put-if-absent [map key val] (if (contains? map key) map (assoc map key val))) i guess...
23:25	phenom_	,(defn put-if-absent [map key val] (if (contains? map key) map (assoc map key val)))
23:25	phenom_	,(defn put-if-absent [map key val] (if (contains? map key) map (assoc map key val)))
23:25	clojurebot	DENIED
23:25	clojurebot	DENIED
23:25	amalloy	or you can roll your own easily enough with (update-in m [k] #(or %1 new-value-to-put))
23:25	amalloy	or you can roll your own easily enough with (update-in m [k] #(or %1 new-value-to-put))
23:26	DespiteItAll	yeah, assoc/or was my solution
23:26	DespiteItAll	yeah, assoc/or was my solution
23:27	DespiteItAll	update-in is less repetitive
23:27	DespiteItAll	update-in is less repetitive
23:28	amalloy	phenom_: https://github.com/amalloy/clojure-useful/blob/master/src/useful.clj#L11
23:28	amalloy	phenom_: https://github.com/amalloy/clojure-useful/blob/master/src/useful.clj#L11
23:29	DespiteItAll	that's a nice collection
23:29	DespiteItAll	that's a nice collection
23:29	amalloy	that's my fork of clojure-useful, but i didn't write most of it - it just happened to come up first in my google search :P
23:29	amalloy	that's my fork of clojure-useful, but i didn't write most of it - it just happened to come up first in my google search :P
23:35	bytecoder	,(defn assoc-or [m k v & kvs] (merge (apply hash-map k v kvs) m))
23:35	bytecoder	,(defn assoc-or [m k v & kvs] (merge (apply hash-map k v kvs) m))
23:35	bytecoder	,(assoc-or {:a 1 :b 2} :b 3)
23:35	bytecoder	just a suggestion - a merge might do the job for you. (merge {:a 1 :d 7} {:a 3 :b 5 :c 6}) for example
23:36	bytecoder	,(assoc-or {:a 1 :b 2} :b 3)
23:36	bytecoder	just a suggestion - a merge might do the job for you. (merge {:a 1 :d 7} {:a 3 :b 5 :c 6}) for example
23:36	clojurebot	DENIED
23:36	clojurebot	DENIED
23:36	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: assoc-or in this context
23:36	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: assoc-or in this context
23:36	bytecoder	,(defn assoc-or [m k v & kvs] (merge (apply hash-map k v kvs) m))
23:36	bytecoder	,(defn assoc-or [m k v & kvs] (merge (apply hash-map k v kvs) m))
23:36	clojurebot	DENIED
23:36	clojurebot	DENIED
23:36	amalloy	good point bytecoder. merge is reasonable for this
23:36	amalloy	good point bytecoder. merge is reasonable for this
23:41	waxrose	amalloy, I think it's interesting how it does all that with so little.
23:41	waxrose	amalloy, I think it's interesting how it does all that with so little.
23:41	amalloy	&(merge {:a 1 :c 2} {:a 10 :b 20})
23:41	sexpbot	⟹ {:b 20, :a 10, :c 2}
23:41	amalloy	&(merge {:a 1 :c 2} {:a 10 :b 20})
23:41	sexpbot	⟹ {:b 20, :a 10, :c 2}
23:42	amalloy	&(merge {:a 10 :b 20} {:a 1 :c 2})
23:42	amalloy	&(merge {:a 10 :b 20} {:a 1 :c 2})
23:42	sexpbot	⟹ {:c 2, :a 1, :b 20}
23:42	sexpbot	⟹ {:c 2, :a 1, :b 20}
23:42	waxrose	amalloy, Is SNUSP turing complete?
23:42	waxrose	amalloy, Is SNUSP turing complete?
23:42	amalloy	waxrose: any interesting language is. BF is, i'm pretty sure
23:42	amalloy	waxrose: any interesting language is. BF is, i'm pretty sure
23:43	waxrose	amalloy, Now I want to see you do the same in CherryBlossom. :P
23:43	waxrose	amalloy, Now I want to see you do the same in CherryBlossom. :P
23:44	amalloy	Use CherryBlossom / Write seasonal poetry / Turing loves it
23:44	amalloy	Use CherryBlossom / Write seasonal poetry / Turing loves it
23:44	amalloy	would love it, i guess. silly old "loves" being only one syllable
23:44	amalloy	would love it, i guess. silly old "loves" being only one syllable
23:48	amalloy	(if cherryblossom doesn't have anything to do with haikus, i'm not interested)
23:48	amalloy	(if cherryblossom doesn't have anything to do with haikus, i'm not interested)
23:55	amalloy	nice, i see that it does
23:55	amalloy	nice, i see that it does