#clojure – 2010-10-05

2010-10-05

01:51	nathanmarz	hey guys, is there a standard way to mark a clojure function as deprecated?
02:03	scottj	both clojure and contrib do it with a map after doctring {:deprecated "version number"}
02:05	scottj	I don't know if that's actually used by clojure or any tools
02:22	amalloy	scottj: it's used by the API ref, anyway
02:38	brehaut	hello
02:40	amalloy	hi brehaut
03:05	ossareh	hey, I'm running lein uberjar, and it's compiling my various clj files - however there is an ns that only becomes available at runtime and as a result the compiler complains that it cannot find the ns. Is this where you're expected to use ' ?
03:06	ossareh	i.e. 'runtime-ns/var
03:06	ossareh	?
03:53	amalloy	i've been poking around at rosettacode tonight; does anyone see an improvement to http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Probabilistic_choice#Clojure? i couldn't find a good way to do either (to-cdf) or (choose)
03:57	neotyk	Good morning
03:57	amalloy	morning neotyk
03:59	neotyk	Is there something sequence library that would allow me not to write it like here: http://gist.github.com/611192 ?
04:00	amalloy	neotyk: i think you can use destructuring for this
04:01	neotyk	amalloy: where would it help?
04:02	amalloy	neotyk: the :or keyword does some magic
04:02	amalloy	i don't use it often, lemme play around with it to find out the right syntax
04:02	neotyk	amalloy: :or is used when there is no valye provided, right?
04:03	amalloy	neotyk: sorry, i only sorta scanned your code. sounds like i didn't scan it well enough :)
04:03	amalloy	what is it you're trying to do?
04:07	neotyk	map some properties
04:07	neotyk	say property :a tp :c
04:07	neotyk	s/tp/to/
04:07	sexpbot	<neotyk> say property :a to :c
04:09	amalloy	yes, it's clear that you want to map some properties, but not clear what that means :P
04:09	amalloy	i guess i'll just run your code and see what it does
04:11	neotyk	you have props with "old.prop.name" and want to have it's value to "new.prop.name"
04:11	neotyk	and make sure old code works
04:22	LauJensen	Morning all - I didn't know that America had Giraffes: http://i.imgur.com/nr2Fc.jpg
04:23	hiredman	I have three
04:23	LauJensen	:)
04:24	abrenk	three of those!? :-)
05:20	esj	that one is three in one
05:32	carkh	(.toString ^java.net.URI (-> state :request :uri)) i get reflection warning there in 1.2
05:32	carkh	is it the way it should be ?
05:32	carkh	if i go (let [^java.net.URI uri (-> state :request :uri)] ..) no reflection warning
05:49	raek	carkh: I think the metadata ends up on the (-> state :request :uri) list, which is removed by that macro
05:50	raek	I don't know if you can typehint arbitrary expressions
05:50	carkh	it used to be valid in 1.1
05:50	carkh	ohwell i'll make do
05:50	raek	oh..
05:51	carkh	actually iirc you could even put type hints inside the -> form
05:52	carkh	i'll wait for america to wake up and see if i can get hold of a maintainer =P
05:53	raek	:)
06:53	neotyk	at the end of this month there is a clojure conj, and there is 3rd clojure bday party
06:53	neotyk	is there any milestone that is Clojure birth day?
08:33	bartj	Please advise if this scenario requires agents or can be done with something better ?
08:33	bartj	I have 1M records and need to save them to a database. My idea is to break these into partitions of 500 each.
08:33	bartj	And call a function "save-database" on each partition of size 500.
08:33	bartj	The thing is I would like to use agents - but, there is no shared/mutable state
08:33	bartj	in the above process. The reason I would like to use agents is to spawn
08:33	bartj	threads for each save operation; so that they can happen parallely.
08:35	chouser	if they're all writing to the same database, can they really happen in parallel anyway?
08:35	cemerick	Indeed, that's going to IO-bound primarily.
08:36	cemerick	Though, there's no point in thinking about "partitioning". (dorun (pmap save-database 1-meeelion-records)) should do it.
08:36	cemerick	Sort of a waste of 1M perfectly good futures. :-P
08:38	chouser	heh
08:41	bartj	chouser, yeah, you are right
08:42	bartj	I mean these are new records, so the database is not locking atleast the record-level
08:43	bartj	*atleast at the
08:43	chouser	but is probably locking the table for append, right?
08:43	cemerick	jeez, I'd hope not
08:44	bartj	er, this is not a classic mySQL database
08:44	bartj	it's CouchDB
08:45	cemerick	bartj: in that case, your time is going to be dominated by writes on the couchdb side due to its durability guarantee. You want to use its bulk_docs api. Clutch supports it directly, FWIW. http://github.com/ashafa/clutch
08:46	bartj	oh yes, I am using the bulk_docs feature
08:46	cemerick	that explains your desire to partition the records :-)
08:46	bartj	though, it is actually the bulkCreateDocuments from the jcouchdb lib
08:47	bartj	ok, re: the question -> there is no state here
08:47	cemerick	sure, either way
08:48	bartj	and I want to start multiple threads...
08:48	bartj	so is agents the only way to go ?
08:48	cemerick	Threads are very low-level, and there's generally no reason to touch them in Clojure.
08:48	chouser	you want one thread per batch?
08:48	bartj	my train of thought is that:
08:49	bartj	I plan on calling an agent
08:49	bartj	chouser, yes
08:49	bartj	cemerick, er, I meant agents
08:49	dnolen	bartj: you might find this interesting
08:50	dnolen	not sure if agents are necessary if you just need to load 1M records as fast as possible, batching should do the trick
08:50	dnolen	It didn't seem like you could get CouchDB to write much faster to disk, but if you find out different, I'd like to know
08:50	dnolen	bartj: http://dosync.posterous.com/stm-couchdb-and-pushing-5500-documentssecond
08:52	bartj	dnolen, yes, I am not sure if agents are necessary; that is the only way I know to spawn threads :)
08:53	cemerick	dnolen: IMO, not sure why refs are necessary there. An atom or a simple LinkedBlockingQueue would do the job. shrug
08:53	dnolen	bartj: I able to load about 1M tiny documents in about 3 minutes.
08:53	dnolen	cemerick: yeah, I realized that later.
08:53	cemerick	bartj: agents don't spawn threads
08:53	cemerick	dnolen: just checking ;-)
08:53	chouser	cemerick: I was looking at that. he's using the insert-queue to create the batches, not really as a work queue.
08:54	bartj	cemerick, yes you are right
08:54	dnolen	cemerick: actually atom could work right, I need to check the count?
08:54	chouser	cemerick: sometimes agents spawn threads
08:54	dnolen	s/could/couldn't
08:54	bartj	cemerick, but, at the end of the day you have to "send" something to an agent
08:55	cemerick	chouser: same-same as .size() & .drain() on LBQ, no?
08:55	bartj	cemerick, which would definitely spawn a thread.
08:55	chouser	dnolen: you'd use the return value of 'swap!' to see if you're the one that took it up to 50
08:55	bartj	, (doc send-off)
08:55	clojurebot	"([a f & args]); Dispatch a potentially blocking action to an agent. Returns the agent immediately. Subsequently, in a separate thread, the state of the agent will be set to the value of: (apply action-fn state-of-agent args)"
08:55	chouser	cemerick: maybe, but not sure that's easier.
08:55	cemerick	bartj: send-* occupies a thread, but doesn't necessarily allocate one. It's a critical distinction.
08:55	dnolen	chouser: but in the time to get to a flush couldn't another item have been added?
08:56	chouser	dnolen: oh, good point. it can be done, but with current atom api it'd be messy
08:56	dnolen	chouser: I'm actually learning Clojure! :D
08:56	chouser	there's been talk of a 'swap!' fn that would return old and new values of the atom
08:57	chouser	dnolen: of course you are! that's some pretty clean code there, doing something that's actually useful.
08:57	bartj	cemerick, ok...then my question would be when does it get allocated ?
08:57	chouser	dnolen: anyway, if you had a swap+!, you could do something like...
08:58	dnolen	chouser: i've seen you mention something like this before on channel
08:58	cemerick	bartj: when using send-off, when there's no available threads in the associated threadpool (up to some limit, perhaps). But seriously, you shouldn't even think about it.
08:58	cemerick	There's no way to reason about when send-off, future, etc actually allocate threads.
08:59	bartj	cemerick, thank you...but, my question is not related to the timing of "allocating a thread"
09:00	bartj	my question is primarily: " do agents create a thread to change the state?"
09:00	AWizzArd	cemerick: iirc in earlier Clojure versions future every time created a new thread. Now it uses the same thread pool that agents use.
09:01	chouser	(let [[oldq] (swap+! insert-queue #(if (== 50 (count %)) [new-item] (conj % new-item)))] (when (== 50 (count oldq)) (send-off ...)))
09:01	AWizzArd	And send-off tries to take an agent out of the thread pool, and if none is available it creates a new thread.
09:01	chouser	bartj: you are right to notice you don't care about the agent's state and therefore have doubts as to whether they're the right mechanism
09:01	AWizzArd	Do I remember this correctly?
09:02	cemerick	AWizzArd: nope, you have it right
09:02	chouser	bartj: consider 'future' in such circumstances
09:03	chouser	bartj: or an Executor thread pool of your own
09:04	chouser	cemerick: so I now have maven scratch projects for launching clojure 1.0, 1.1, 1.2 and master REPLs, all with my most happily customized options.
09:04	cemerick	1.0, even! :-)
09:04	bartj	thanks everyone!
09:05	bartj	everytime I come here, it re-inforces my lack of knowledge :)
09:05	chouser	they share a command-line history, optionally use pprint when available (from contrib for early versions, clojure.pprint later), prompt coloring, etc.
09:05	cemerick	chouser: nicely enough, the next rev of clojure-maven-plugin will add a <packaging>clojure</packaging> option, which will eliminate the need to bind the goals to build phases.
09:06	chouser	cemerick: I haven't yet confirmed that a change in my own clojure proj will be picked up by the master repl, but based on the behavior I saw last night I think it's likely
09:06	cemerick	chouser: sounds like you have a good basis for packaging some clojure maven archetypes
09:06	chouser	I have no idea what that means. :-D
09:07	cemerick	They're new project templates -- thousands of them out there for various languages, frameworks, types of applications, etc.
09:07	chouser	I would like to learn at some point how to have maven not spend several seconds deciding it doesn't need to compile and .java files, etc.
09:08	cemerick	having them in central would allow one to do something like `mvn archetype:create clojure-1.2` and get a baseline pom and project structure spit out to disk.
09:08	chouser	as for clojure and contrib building compilcations, I think the instructions in contrib that rhickey and I have been following may be unnecessarily complex.
09:08	cemerick	I'd definitely agree on that count.
09:09	chouser	a lot of my logic is outside the pom, since I still mostly hurt myself when I try to change that.
09:09	chouser	the distance between a maven feature's docs, it's source, and the xml to interact with it is so large as to cause vertigo
09:10	cemerick	aside from my work on the clojure-maven-plugin, I don't think I've ever looked at a plugin's source
09:10	chouser	well, when the docs fail you...
09:11	cemerick	But I'd heartily recommend using an editor with good tag completion + popup documentation for the same.
09:11	chouser	cemerick: as soon as I find one of those with correct key bindings, I'll be all over it. :-)
09:12	cemerick	Ouch. :-(
09:12	chouser	but seriously, I wanted to get clojure:repl to run some clojure code before going to the prompt
09:13	chouser	or alternatively have my own phase/targe/whatever that ran my code instead of clojure-maven-plugin's idea of a repl
09:13	cemerick	chouser: You've no idea how your asceticism hurts you in that area :-)
09:14	chouser	I saw nothing in the plugin's rather sparse docs, though looking at it source code there were clearly options available.
09:14	cemerick	chouser: There's a <replScript> config option, that appears to be what you want.
09:14	chouser	are you saying if I had been using eclipse or something it would have prompted me with where I could instert replScript?
09:15	cemerick	Yup -- I found <replScript> by putting my cursor inside of the <configuration> element and hitting Cmd-/ (my code-completion binding)
09:15	chouser	yeah, I found replScript in the source. ...took me another few minutes to learn that it belonged inside <configuration>, inside <plugin>
09:15	chouser	same for discovering <configuration>?
09:15	cemerick	chouser: heh, yeah
09:16	chouser	sigh
09:16	cemerick	Dude, it's eclipse, welcome to 2003 ;-)
09:16	cemerick	it even has vi bindings, IIRC
09:16	chouser	it's just rude
09:16	chouser	cemerick: yeah, it does sorta.
09:16	cemerick	ha
09:16	chouser	I may end up there yet
09:16	cemerick	me, eclipse, or xml?
09:17	cemerick	I've give you a little demo when we're at the conj
09:19	chouser	oh, I dunno. I guess the mindset that creates things like java and maven config files -- languages that are painful unless you use a large vertical stack of software to manipulate them even though that's not inherently necessary
09:19	chouser	java the language
09:19	abrenk	chouser: building clojure-contrib with a custom clojure will be easier when stuartsierra applies my patch
09:19	rrc7cz	chouser: but then how would large companies like BEA and IBM make money selling you tools to manage the complexity they create?
09:20	chouser	cemerick: yeah, I'm hoping lpetit's demo will drive me over the edge.
09:20	chouser	rrc7cz: oh, stop pushing my buttons. :-)
09:20	rrc7cz	chouser: recognize the genius ;-)
09:21	rrc7cz	I recently attended a presentation by some IBM fellow on their WebSphere BPM tool. He showed us Hello World and it was like 200 lines of XML. Seriously.
09:21	cemerick	rrc7cz: of course, I've never paid anyone a dime for my eclipse or netbeans toolchains
09:22	chouser	rrc7cz: but think of the flexibility!
09:22	Chousuke	:D
09:22	rrc7cz	:-D indeed. Just make sure to clear your afternoon schedule because to run their Hello World you have to boot up WebSphere itself
09:22	cemerick	I've never grokked the minimalist bent of the hacker ethos, if I may phrase it as such.
09:22	rrc7cz	cemerick: you haven't, but I bet any company running a J2EE stack has paid a bundle for their app server
09:23	cemerick	rrc7cz: well, we run tomcat shrug
09:23	rrc7cz	cemerick: I "got it" when I switched from PHP to J2EE due to a job change. My first reaction to the config, compile-package-deploy-boot cycle was, "are you kidding me? people actually develop like this??"
09:24	cemerick	OSS has (for better or worse) trained us all to believe that software should be gratis
09:24	rrc7cz	cemerick: for now you do :-) wait till you need JTA/distributed transactions, resource adapters, and the whole bloody lot
09:24	cemerick	rrc7cz: if your counterpoint to the JVM toolchains is PHP, you've lost me from the start
09:24	chouser	heh
09:25	cemerick	we use couchdb on the backend, I can't imagine
09:25	rrc7cz	cemerick: forget PHP the language and think about "dynamic scripting languages" You could replace it with Ruby, Python, whatever. The development style is the same
09:26	rrc7cz	what I was trying to say was: change this line of code and refresh the page. Bam, it's done. I love it
09:26	cemerick	Such things are fundamentally targeted at a category of problems that I'm entirely uninterested in. shrug
09:27	cemerick	Eh, jetty and tomcat do the same dance. And a remote REPL beats 'em all. :-)
09:27	chouser	but that's because of clojure
09:27	rrc7cz	cemerick: agree on the REPL, that's why I'm in love with clj/scala/etc.
09:28	cemerick	chouser: Indeed, though JRebel is some serious magic too.
09:28	cemerick	or whatever they're calling it these days
09:28	chouser	yeah, though that does still require a round of javac each time, doesn't it?
09:28	cemerick	wait for it....
09:29	cemerick	chouser: if you're using any of their IDE plugins, it all happens in the background, including the "redeployment"
09:29	chouser	:-0
09:29	chouser	er
09:29	chouser	:-)
09:30	rrc7cz	but in practice the "redeployment" is of course slower than an interpreted language because you must compile + deploy. You can also run into problems blowing out the PermGen because you keep redeploying these class definitions but the old one never gets GC'd because it lives in PG
09:30	rrc7cz	i guess my feeling is: you can _kinda_ get the same effect.. maybe 80% there
09:31	cemerick	rrc7cz: You're wrong on both points.
09:31	cemerick	Just FYI :-)
09:31	rrc7cz	cemerick: try redeploying a WAR 100 times on a running Tomcat
09:31	rrc7cz	default install, no jvm switches
09:31	cemerick	I presumed you were talking about JRebel as well.
09:31	rrc7cz	oh, no, I don't know what that is
09:31	chouser	have these people who spend their time adding the same features to multiple IDEs (via plugins) really not carved out some kind of common interface to code to?
09:32	cemerick	"no jvm switches" is a silly restriction
09:32	rrc7cz	cemerick: probably, so okay: the switches just delay the problem
09:32	cemerick	chouser: you mean UI-wise and such?
09:32	chouser	no, not UI-wise
09:32	cemerick	rrc7cz: re: permgen? Hardly.
09:32	rrc7cz	cemerick: you can bump up the PermGen space to delay the problem. I believe there are some PG sweeps you can enable, but I think each JVM implements them differently and they never solved the problem 100% for me
09:33	chouser	some programmatic interface that others can use, those of us for whom no IDE UI feels comfortable
09:33	cemerick	oh
09:34	cemerick	well
09:34	cemerick	you mean a cmdline interface to an IDE plugin?
09:34	chouser	I dunno. I guess. Or any other kind of common entrypoint.
09:35	cemerick	I've never heard of one. Some plugins do have APIs, insofar as they provide hooks for other plugins.
09:35	cemerick	chouser: I think you're a market approaching one in this area. :-)
09:36	chouser	:-(
09:36	chouser	so lonely
09:36	cemerick	chouser: the hive beckons to you
09:37	chouser	I try to conform, really I do! I know it's hard to believe...
09:37	cemerick	that was a ;-)
09:38	cemerick	Conformity carries a buck of connotations. "Power in numbers" is real, though.
09:38	chouser	I totally agree, which is why I'm not entirely joking
09:40	chouser	I'm constantly tempted to write replacement tools from scratch, and with constant vigilence manage to mostly overcome the urge (the occasional dabbling with gentoo, textjure, etc. notwithstanding)
09:41	chouser	but there is also danger in the complacency of the mainstream
09:42	cemerick	Tools without a community have vanishingly small benefits AFAICT.
09:42	chouser	A billion MS Foundation Class programmers can't be wrong!
09:42	cemerick	heh
09:42	chouser	cemerick: my tools have communities, I promise.
09:42	cemerick	Of course, VS is a marvel, so that comment is slightly ironic. ;-)
09:43	chouser	just because you're not in them doesn't mean they don't exist. :-)
09:43	cemerick	I was referring to the "write replacement tools" thing.
09:43	chouser	oh, right.
09:43	chouser	well, the lure there of course is always that if you write a better one the community will form.
09:43	cemerick	whew
09:43	chouser	the siren song
09:44	cemerick	Seeing that sort of thing relatively close up with Clojure, the process holds zero appeal for me.
09:44	chouser	heh
09:44	chouser	yeah, that's a really good point
09:45	cemerick	I mean, what would it take to build up a tool with a community like vi or TextMate, or whatever.
09:45	cemerick	That's a life's work, it seems.
09:46	cemerick	modulo luck, of course
09:46	chouser	part of why I try to resist such urges.
09:47	chouser	but that leads me to prefer the most flexible tools with communities that most encourage hackery
09:47	cemerick	What we really need are more/better vertically-integrated tools, so that mundane BS like builds can be routine and we can focus on what we have useful/valuable expertise in.
09:47	chouser	which is like the antithesis of IDEs
09:48	cemerick	Yeah, I can see that.
09:48	cemerick	I've always been (and always will be) behind the hackery curve though, so that's a ratrace I had to opt out of early.
09:48	chouser	I've never had valuable expertise
09:49	cemerick	I find that absurdly hard to believe.
09:50	chouser	no, seriously. This is really interesting -- I've never tried to understand my penchants in these regards
10:13	AWizzArd	I have a stream from which I want to read a string. I know that the string is one mio bytes long. Is there something like slurp which takes a limit of bytes to read?
10:17	chouser	AWizzArd: probably best is just use .read
10:18	AWizzArd	chouser: yes, I will probably essentially reimplement slurp, but for bytes.
10:18	AWizzArd	slowly filling up a byte array
10:18	chouser	why slowly?
10:19	AWizzArd	i.e: not simply (.read stream buffer 1000000)
10:19	AWizzArd	but instead reading byte after byte
10:19	chouser	why?
10:19	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
10:19	chouser	I mean, why not simply (.read stream buffer 1000000)?
10:19	AWizzArd	chouser: it is a GZIPInputStream. I tried to read a mio bytes from it. But it does not deliver that.
10:19	chouser	does it only fill partially?
10:20	AWizzArd	In the first read it returned 390k bytes. In the second 528k and in the third read the remaining bytes.
10:20	AWizzArd	Yes.
10:20	AWizzArd	Probably the algorithm of ungzipping needs a few stops in the middle.
10:20	chouser	ok, it'd be best to ask for the remaining buffer size each time (rather than asking for only 1 more byte)
10:20	AWizzArd	yes, I can check how much is .available
10:20	chouser	I'd guess there's no code in clojure or contrib for a fixed-sized buffer like that
10:21	AWizzArd	right
10:21	chouser	just .read and see what it returns
10:21	AWizzArd	Ah yes, .read on the buffer and using its return value, and giving an offset
10:21	chouser	yes
10:22	AWizzArd	int read(byte[] b, int off, int len)
10:22	AWizzArd	yes yes, this sounds good
10:23	chouser	exactly. (loop [off 0] ... (recur (- 1000 off bytes-read)))
10:23	chouser	no wait
10:23	chouser	not that, but you'll get it. :-)
10:25	AWizzArd	yes yes, I am on it already
10:25	AWizzArd	btw, there is an interesting design pattern here, for loop
10:25	AWizzArd	one of the vars in loop is initialized with an expression that also shows up in the recur call.
10:26	AWizzArd	For slurp this is (.read r)
10:26	chouser	yes, that shows up in many languages
10:26	chouser	often it can be refactored to only show up in the the recur
10:27	AWizzArd	In my case it is (.read stream result offset remaining) in the loop declaration and the same thing with adjusted values in the recur
10:27	chouser	it shows up much less often in clojure because explicit loops are less common
10:27	AWizzArd	Yes.
10:27	AWizzArd	I noticed this however quite a few times already.
10:27	AWizzArd	When using LOOP.
10:31	chouser	can you loop with the offset starting at 0 instead?
10:34	AWizzArd	(loop [offset 0, remaining len, n (.read stream result offset remaining)] ...) is what I have
10:34	AWizzArd	and it works great
10:34	chouser	but requires repeating your .read code
10:34	AWizzArd	chouser: which is not that bad
10:35	AWizzArd	deserialization of a string of length one mio from a gzipped Store now takes just 10.22 msecs vs 6.8 msecs for a non gzipped :)
10:35	AWizzArd	fast beast :-)
10:35	chouser	true, not bad.
10:36	chouser	another option: (loop [off 0] (when (< off (count buf)) (let [newoff (.read r buf off (count buf))] (when (pos? newoff) (recur (+ off newoff))))))
10:36	AWizzArd	yes, my clojure (de)serialization lib is not drastically much slower than optimized pure java ones
10:37	AWizzArd	chouser: hmm yes, I could move the read into a let
10:37	clojurebot	Why are you asking him
10:37	AWizzArd	inside the loop
10:38	alexyk	is there a way to tell repl to print say 3 digits after the dot for floating-point numbers?
10:38	chouser	AWizzArd: but perhaps you're implication that a macro could help is correct
10:38	alexyk	in the E notation
10:40	AWizzArd	chouser: well, for this case your ideas put me on the right track. I now just have one read, in a let as the first form inside the loop, and i only refresh the offset and remaining vars in a recur call. Works great and is a bit simpler.
10:40	phenom_	how many languages is too many to learn at once? :{
10:40	alexyk	phenom_: 4
10:41	chouser	alexyk: yes, it's possible. gimme a sec
10:41	alexyk	chouser: kk
10:41	kryft	Hi, what book(s) or other Clojure resources would you recommend to a budding machine learning researcher with a fairly good grasp of imperative and OO programming (mostly with C++ and Python) and a basic understanding of functional programming (I've read some SICP and seen some of the Abel & Sussman lectures)?
10:41	AWizzArd	chouser: this strategy could be used for slurp too I think, resulting in a (loop [] (let [c (.read r)] ... (recur))
10:42	kryft	I know I can learn to churn out some kind of code with just about anything, but because I don't know what I don't know about lisp in general and Clojure in particular, I would like to make sure that I learn how to 'think in Clojure' from the get-go.
10:43	chouser	kryft: I more or less universally recommend the book http://joyofclojure.com/ for reasons that will quickly be obvious to you
10:43	kryft	chouser: :D
10:43	chouser	:-)
10:43	kryft	chouser: I thought your name looked familiar. :)
10:44	alexyk	kryft: I recommend it too as an unbiased clojurer :)
10:44	alexyk	and a machine learning researcher too... check out incanter.org if you haven't already
10:45	kryft	chouser: That's one of the books I've glanced at, and the free chapter did seem promising.
10:46	kryft	alexyk: Oh, wow, no I haven't. :)
10:46	kryft	I haven't actually started learning clojure yet, although I've thought about it for months.
10:46	alexyk	kryft: then just peruse the code as you use it, it's the best practices and ML in one :)
10:48	kryft	alexyk: Wow, great. :)
10:48	kryft	alexyk: How mature is it?
10:49	alexyk	kryft: I follow it for about a year, very cool, David Liebke is super-responsive and adds everything you need right there. It got contributions and is very alive; also David is a member of Clojure/core which is the most mature group of clojureres, not in terms of old age though :)
10:50	kryft	alexyk: Hehe. :)
10:51	kryft	alexyk: That sounds like a project I might want to add to myself once I hone my clojuration skills a bit. ;)
10:51	AWizzArd	chouser: loop can maybe extended to support bindings that are not part of the loop itself, but get expanded into a let. They will not be set via recur, but instead the form gets reevaled each time later.
10:52	AWizzArd	That would free slurps loop from the double (.read r) and could in principle break this pattern.
10:53	scottj	for ML http://github.com/bradford/infer is interesting too
10:53	chouser	alexyk: Clojure 1.2?
10:53	alexyk	chouser: yep
10:54	chouser	not 1.3-something?
10:54	alexyk	chouser: not on purpose, but if there's a need, why not :)
10:54	chouser	nah
10:54	chouser	actually, just realized I didn't need to ask
10:56	chouser	(defmethod print-method Double [n w] (.write w (.format (java.text.DecimalFormat. "0.0##E0") n)))
10:57	chouser	but that'll do scientific notation for all doubles, not just ones that would use it by default
10:57	chouser	alexyk: will that do? perhaps you can add an 'if' to fall back to (str n)
10:59	alexyk	chouser: very nice! for now does the trick
10:59	kryft	chouser: When is the dead tree edition coming out, by the way?
10:59	chouser	kryft: The plan is December.
11:00	alexyk	chouser: so (str n) was the default, so I can revert to that?
11:00	chouser	alexyk: yep
11:00	kryft	Oo, I can get 35% off? I didn't think the book was expensive to begin with..
11:00	alexyk	in Good Reader
11:01	kryft	alexyk: I'm going to get a Kindle (or something similar) once I recover from my current bicycle-purchase-induced poverty.
11:01	alexyk	scottj: I thought flightcaster contributed to incanter, now see it's infer... did they split?
11:02	esj	kryft: i'm experiencing a joyful kindle induced poverty (not the device, but the books ...)
11:02	alexyk	kryft: my Kindle DX lays idle for months after iPad arrived, and will probably be in niche use
11:02	kryft	alexyk: Want to sell it? ;)
11:03	scottj	alexyk: don't know, would guess always separate
11:03	alexyk	kryft: although all the kindle books are now used in the kindle reader. Alas, it was a gift and thus I'll keep using it now that my wife grabs the iPad more and more. :)
11:04	kryft	Paradigm-wise (coming to lisp from imperative languages), is there anything major that I should know about that Joy of Clojure doesn't touch on?
11:04	alexyk	kryft: you can get a refurbished DX for $200+, that's what I do
11:04	alexyk	'd do :)
11:06	kryft	alexyk: Does amazon sell them directly?
11:06	alexyk	kryft: yep
11:06	alexyk	kryft: but I'd get the iPad, honetsly
11:06	alexyk	you can iSSH from it into a clojure box :)
11:06	kryft	:)
11:07	kryft	I think I'd rather have e-ink and battery life measured in weeks!
11:08	alexyk	kryft: iPad is surprisingly sturdy in terms of battery, the whole day it lasts; and with all the interruptions of real life, e-ink is good for novels only :)
11:08	scottj	and so so pdf rendering and a short break on every keypress
11:08	alexyk	plus, PDF on Kindle used to be abysmal, DX barely cut it
11:08	alexyk	while iPad rocks
11:09	alexyk	I now keep iPad with a PDF book on a stand next to Mac, no more command-tab awkwardness
11:09	kryft	alexyk: Abysmal how?
11:10	alexyk	kryft: now easy resizing of small font; iPad is pinch or double-tab
11:10	alexyk	tap
11:10	alexyk	not easy on the kindle at all
11:12	alexyk	ninjudd: wow completion in repl! cake rocks
11:13	mabes	alexyk: more completion than rlwrap provides?
11:13	alexyk	mabes: rlwrap is from a predefined list?
11:14	mabes	alexyk: yes, and your history I think
11:14	alexyk	mabes: didn't try history... but cake infers from the namespace for realz
11:15	mabes	alexyk: I see.. yeah, that is better than rlwrap then
11:15	alexyk	just hit tab! don't be afraid!
11:18	alexyk	anybody driving to conj from the greater Boston area (~4 hour radius)?
11:18	alexyk	or flying a private plane?
11:23	alexyk	or sailing/rowing a boat down the coast?
11:23	arkh	is there a way to combine a when-let with cond ? i.e., have the conditional also bind stuff with a let and carry that into the expression paired with the conditional
11:23	chouser	wow, the code Java uses for default formatting of doubles is even hairier than I'd guessed. http://grepcode.com/file/repository.grepcode.com/java/root/jdk/openjdk/6-b14/sun/misc/FloatingDecimal.java#910
11:24	chouser	arkh: I've played with a custom cond-let a bit. Doesn't seem useful very often.
11:24	alexyk	chouser: scary stuff!
11:26	arkh	chouser: it'd be useful now ; )
11:26	arkh	chouser: you have much more clojure experience so I'll take your word for it
11:27	chouser	alexyk: so this might be more comfortable: (defmethod print-method Double [n w] (let [s (str n)] (.write w (if (re-find #"E" s) (.format (java.text.DecimalFormat. "0.0##E0") n) s))))
11:30	alexyk	chouser: ok. Although I find limiting mantissa very useful in all floats, being a former physicist. Seeing 20 decimal places in numeric examples makes me angry and sad, usually, and lamenting screen space :)
11:31	chouser	arkh: this seems to work, if you want to try it out: (defmacro cond-let [[sym] test expr & more] `(if-let [~sym ~test] ~expr ~(when more `(cond-let [~sym] ~@more))))
11:34	arkh	chouser: thank you - I owe you a beverage of your choice at clojure-conj
11:34	chouser	arkh: use it like (cond-let [x] test1 expr-that-uses-x-1 test2 expr-of-x-2)
11:34	chouser	arkh: woohoo!
11:34	chouser	:-)
11:34	carkh	(.toString ^java.net.URI (-> state :request :uri)) i get reflection warning there in 1.2
11:35	carkh	iirc this was not the case in 1.1
11:35	kryft	chouser: I read a few reviews, and it sounds like JoC is definitely the book I'm looking for. One of the reviews suggested that JoC expects the reader to know some clojure already; is that true?
11:36	carkh	if i go (let [^java.net.URI uri (-> state :request :uri)] (.toString uri)) no reflection warning
11:36	carkh	is that intended or a bug ?
11:38	arkh	kryft: after reading some of JoC, any expectation of clojure knowledge would become irrelevant after a few readings of the book (imho) If you get JoC, I don't think you'll be disappointed.
11:51	quizme	how do you define a function during runtime?
11:52	quizme	(eval '(defn sq [x] (* x x ))) ?
11:52	carkh	yes, but if you need to do this, it means you're doing something wrong
11:54	carkh	(most of the time)
11:54	quizme	well i'm just wondering how it would be done
11:54	quizme	(hopefully the right way)
11:56	quizme	the book Practical Clojure doesn't mention eval, so I was kinda curious.
11:57	carkh	my guess would be that's because it's almost always bad practice using it
11:57	carkh	i can't think of a use case
11:57	carkh	a meaningfull one
11:57	quizme	well
11:58	quizme	how about the human mind
11:58	carkh	heh what about it ?
11:58	quizme	to create a new idea is to create a new function that is able to transform one idea into another.
11:59	quizme	you don't have to model it like that
11:59	quizme	but
11:59	quizme	it seems natural to do so
11:59	carkh	right, you're taking the high level view
11:59	carkh	i think that pattern is emergent from very many little state machines (neurons)
12:01	quizme	i realized another weird thing about clojure
12:01	carkh	also that's great thinking about the human mind, but ... at the end of the day, we're not programming such complex things in clojure =P
12:01	quizme	that functions are usual defined as constants, rather than refs
12:02	carkh	function are defined (as constant if you will) then assigned to a var
12:02	carkh	in your example, sq is the var
12:02	quizme	yeah
12:02	carkh	(fn [x] (* x x)) is the function
12:02	quizme	i think it would be cool use refs
12:03	carkh	why would you need a ref ? you're not going to need transactional access to it
12:03	quizme	because then you could group chunks of dependent functions into a transaction, so that you could update your system in real-time
12:03	clojurebot	functions are maps
12:03	carkh	ah true
12:04	carkh	but what of the live data
12:04	quizme	what about it ?
12:04	carkh	what i mean is : hot code swap is hard
12:05	carkh	there are not only the functions, but the data upon which they work
12:05	quizme	yeah
12:05	quizme	well
12:05	quizme	let's say it's voice data
12:05	quizme	and you implement a new algorithm to process voices more efficiently
12:05	quizme	then you could update your system while people were talking
12:06	quizme	and people would suddenly notice the quality of their calls getting better.
12:06	carkh	right there are good reasons to want that, but i'm not sure clojure is the very best tool for that
12:06	carkh	i'm not sure the JVM is very good at that
12:07	quizme	i guess it depends on the problem domain.
12:07	carkh	looks like you want to use erlang =P
12:07	quizme	well i was just trying to make clojure cool like erlang
12:08	quizme	not that erlang is cooler
12:08	carkh	i think they're very different languages both cool, but for different use cases
12:08	quizme	yeah
12:09	carkh	for your voice example, in clojure, i guess you would have to use some RTP proxy in front of your app, launch the updated version, then reroute to it
12:10	quizme	oh my gosh what's an rtp proxy
12:11	carkh	well you're talking about voice ... i guess the transport would be rtp =P
12:11	carkh	i don't know much about all that =)
12:12	carkh	anyways i have this customer, whith quite a few sub-customers all using the same application of mine, i would never dare hot updating that
12:13	alexyk	can you do lein repl from several sessions with the same JVM? cake repl apparently does it!
12:14	technomancy	alexyk: sure; lein repl starts a socket repl; just telnet in
12:14	alexyk	technomancy: OK
12:15	alexyk	technomancy: when cake fails to gets its own deps, I do lein deps, and the elder brother saves the day, begrudgingly :)
12:15	technomancy	heh
12:16	toshiblue	hi all--newbie---just trying to do the string-calc kata- and having a lot of trouble running the tests. I have a feeling my 'add' code is not loading properly - getting the following error:
12:16	toshiblue	ERROR in (add_with_empty_string) (core.clj:6)
12:16	toshiblue	expected: (= 0 (add ""))
12:16	toshiblue	actual: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
12:16	toshiblue
12:17	alexyk	technomancy: how do you blink parens in lein repl?
12:17	technomancy	alexyk: M-x telnet followed by M-x show-paren-mode I guess
12:18	technomancy	it depends on the client
12:18	alexyk	technomancy: I mean, lein repl just blinks parens in my shell (zsh)...
12:18	technomancy	I think that would need to be handled by rlwrap; I don't know how to enable that
12:20	technomancy	,(meta (fn not-so-anonymous []))
12:20	clojurebot	nil
12:20	technomancy	that, sir, is weak.
12:22	quizme	is there another way to create a function during runtime besides using eval?.... you could write a function that generates functions..... any other (general) way (besides stuff like comp or partial)?
12:24	carkh	quizme: the usual way is to make closures
12:24	carkh	then pass the closure to your call site function
12:25	carkh	you surely know of the canonical example
12:25	quizme	carkh: you mean using "fn" ?
12:25	hugod	Its probably come up before, but I can't find an answer: are their plans to get contrib into maven central?
12:25	quizme	carkh what's the canonical example?
12:25	carkh	,(let [adder (fn [x] (fn [y] (+ x y)))] ((adder 3) 4))
12:25	clojurebot	7
12:26	carkh	in some way the form (adder 3) "compiles" a function
12:28	quizme	carkh: ok. thanks.
12:29	carkh	the example is very simple, but you could go wild on that principle
12:29	hsuh	technomancy: clojure-test-mode tells me i had 2 failures but highlights nothing... any idea ?
12:30	technomancy	hsuh: it's certainly not perfect. if you have a good repro case feel free to open a ticket.
12:30	hsuh	k
12:30	technomancy	I haven't really touched it much in over a year; it's due for a refactoring
12:36	TakeV	How do you do something like "import java.awt.event.*" in clojure?
12:38	chouser	kryft: arkh's answer was good. Basically, we didn't have room to be a complete Clojure intro. If you've never done any Clojure or other lisp, the first chapter or two might be at a challenging, but once you've gotten that far we settle down a bit to dig into the meatier points we want to make.
12:38	chouser	a challenging pace
12:38	chouser	TakeV: no globby imports in Clojure, sorry
12:39	chouser	TakeV: but you can (import '(java.awt.event Foo Bar Baz))
12:40	TakeV	chouser: Ah, alright. Thanks.
12:41	TakeV	Hmm, is there a conscious design decision for the lack of global imports?
12:41	chouser	yes, I believe so.
12:41	chouser	I for one am grateful. :-)
12:41	chouser	it bugs me to not know where classes are coming from, what their full name is.
12:42	TakeV	I can see that. Though it does make it annoying to port certain java code into clojure.
12:42	chouser	yeah, but I just blame the Java code
12:42	carkh	hum is there some reason why recompiling defmethods still uses old methods ?
12:43	chouser	which doesn't speed the porting, but makes me feel a little better. :-)
12:43	TakeV	:P
12:43	chouser	carkh: not sure what you mean
12:44	carkh	i have this file where i define a frag multimethod, and 2 frag methods, i put some log statements but they wouldn't show, i had to restart the jvm
12:45	carkh	and now i removed the logging, but it still show =/
12:45	carkh	the multimethod is used at compile time
12:45	carkh	(from another file)
12:45	dakrone	toshiblue, what's the source for 'add' look like?
12:45	carkh	and i recompile everything every time
12:48	chouser	carkh: I'm still not quite sure what you mean. I redefine using defmethod all the time and start using the new version right away
12:48	chouser	carkh: perhaps a minimal example that demonstrates the problem would be instructive
12:48	carkh	i do that all the time too ....but i updated to 1.2
12:48	carkh	maybe swank acting up ?
12:49	chouser	alexyk: (defmethod print-method Double [n w] (let [s (str n)] (.write w (if (re-find #"E\|\d{4,}" s) (.format (java.text.DecimalFormat. "0.0##E0") n) s))))
12:56	carkh	restarting emacs and everything fixed it =/
12:58	kryft	chouser: Ok. I've had some scheme exposure (parts of SICP and quite a few of the Abelson-Sussman lectures), so I guess it shouldn't be too hard, especially with the many free (but not-too-meaty) tutorials available online.
12:58	chouser	kryft: I think you'll find we don't waste your time. :-)
12:59	kryft	chouser: I appreciate it. =)
13:01	kryft	chouser: I bought the book already. I noticed a couple of typos in the first chapter, but I assume the book is still being proofread?
13:01	chouser	yep, going through copyediting as we speak.
13:01	chouser	also a final techincal-correctness review.
13:01	kryft	Oh, one of them was actually corrected (cheif -> chief) in the version I just downloaded. I guess the freely available version was older.
13:02	kryft	Ok.
13:03	kryft	Anyway, seems great overall. :)
13:03	chouser	:-) thanks. If you find anything worth commenting on beyond what copyediting is likely to catch, feel free to post on the Manning forum.
13:04	chouser	we'll get one last shot at making changes before they go to press
13:04	kryft	Ok. Will I have access to the final version of the ebook once the book is published?
13:04	chouser	yep
13:04	kryft	Great.
13:22	toshiblue	dakrone: I think I've got it....I've had a restart of my machine, swank, emacs since yesterday and that seems to have cleared whatever it was.....
13:22	toshiblue	thanks
13:25	grettke	question for you emacs guys... do you use clojure mode with or without SLIME? I don't use slime... I'm too simple.
13:27	mrBliss	grettke: look at this cheat sheet to see some of the handy functions you're missing out on: http://www.pchristensen.com/slimecommands.pdf
13:28	grettke	mrBliss: thanks
13:51	raek	grettke: for me, interactive development is essensial. I can't imagine how I would code the way I do now without slime.
13:52	raek	instead of having to switch to the repl, type (in-ns 'namespace-of-source-buffer) and paste the code, I simply press C-M-x
13:55	raek	I can't code without slime... I'm too simple. :-)
13:57	grettke	raek: lol point taken!
13:58	dnolen	raek: are you the one that had those nice .emacs customizations for paredit and clojure-mode in the repl?
13:59	grettke	dnolen: which ones? why are they nice?
13:59	raek	I use the the master branch of technomancy's clojure-mode
13:59	kryft	I can't live without vim(-like keybinding - I've considered emacs with vimpulse or whatever it was called)
14:00	raek	M-x customize-variable RET clojure-mode-use-backtracking-indent
14:00	raek	makes defrecord and friends indent correctly
14:01	raek	as for paredit: this is the inly customization I have: http://gist.github.com/612010
14:03	raek	it makes paredit insert a matching closing culty bracket in the same way it does with with round and square ones
14:03	raek	doesn't seem to work with the ELPA version of paredit though...
14:05	alexyk	when do things start at clojure-conj on the 22nd, and when do they end on the 23rd?
14:07	alexyk	there seems to be no progarm yet on the site...
14:07	kryft	alexyk: Is that some kind of conference?
14:07	alexyk	kryft: clojure-cong.org
14:07	alexyk	conj.org
14:08	alexyk	sorry for the typos :)
14:08	alexyk	http://clojure-conj.org/information
14:08	kryft	Ah. :)
14:10	dnolen	grettke: just getting rich lisp editing in the REPL
14:25	bartj	@future doesn't seem to give the output of the last statement in the function
14:25	bartj	testing futures code here: http://pastebin.org/30656
14:25	bartj	I have given the actual output and the intended output
14:25	cemerick	,@(future 5)
14:25	clojurebot	5
14:30	cemerick	bartj: I get your expected output here
14:30	cemerick	oh, wait, no I don't
14:31	cemerick	bartj: You want (future (save batch))
14:31	bartj	:)
14:32	bartj	, (doc future)
14:32	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions and yields a future object that will invoke the body in another thread, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent calls to deref/@. If the computation has not yet finished, calls to deref/@ will block."
14:33	bartj	makes sense
14:33	bartj	but, I wonder why (future save batch) even compiled!
14:34	cemerick	,@(future 1 2 3 4 5 6)
14:34	clojurebot	6
14:35	cemerick	it takes any body of expressions, and evaluates them
14:35	bartj	,@(future blah1 blah2 blah3)
14:35	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: blah1 in this context
14:36	bartj	cemerick, yes...but, I gave (future save batch)....and save isn't defined anywhere
14:36	cemerick	it is on line 3?
14:37	bartj	cemerick, sheepish grin
14:37	bartj	cemerick, thanks a lot
15:18	fhd	Hi. I've asked about a shorter alternative to (require 'long.namespace) (ns long.namespace) yesterday, and I found one:
15:18	fhd	(require '[long.namespace :as n])
15:18	fhd	(n/some-function)
15:20	fhd	Just wanted to share in case someone wanted the same :) Bye
15:48	LauJensen	Good morning folk - Just got back from hearing Rich and Stu in Aarhus, DK :)
15:49	ataggart	They're in Denmark?!
15:49	joly	welcome back :) good talks?
15:49	ataggart	that explains why they haven't applied my patch!
15:50	kotarak	ataggart: haha. Applying patches is not a tradition in the clojure world.
15:51	LauJensen	joly: Yea very good talks - I really get the sense that Rich knows what he's talking about when it comes to Clojure :)
15:51	LauJensen	And Stu was smoking
15:51	LauJensen	ataggart: yea
15:54	AWizzArd	LauJensen: what did they say?
15:55	AWizzArd	And what was it that Stu was smoking? ;)
15:55	LauJensen	AWizzArd: Rich talked about 1.3, Statics, Equality and Pods (from questions in the audience, namely me). Stu talked about pitching Clojures OO features to OO addicts
15:56	LauJensen	Cliff Click talked about the troubles of Concurrent programming on many levels, and some interesting solutions
15:56	kotarak	Pfff.. conference attendees know more about Pods than the community itself. :/
15:56	AWizzArd	kotarak: not really :)
15:57	AWizzArd	At least I am a user of them.
15:57	AWizzArd	I started using Cells only days after they were gisted.
15:57	AWizzArd	Maybe I am the only user so far.
15:57	LauJensen	kotarak: did I detect a little whine? :)
15:57	joly	Is there a link for a Pods description? I've only heard the term a few times
15:57	LauJensen	You have to attend more conference, OR conj labs
15:57	kotarak	LauJensen: indeed
15:58	kotarak	LauJensen: indeed a whine, I mean. Will wait for a EU conj.
15:58	LauJensen	Yea dont hold your breath, I asked Rich about it, he said the numbers are vastly on the US side
15:58	AWizzArd	LauJensen: I would like a switch in the compiler which will try to make ^:static out of every function where possible
15:58	LauJensen	Man, he demoed the warn on reflection for statics, that stuff was crazy
15:59	AWizzArd	in what way crazy?
15:59	LauJensen	** Warning, your loop coerces to Object on var 'accumulation' on recur
15:59	LauJensen	Extremely accurate
15:59	kotarak	Ah. My uber-loop. :)
15:59	AWizzArd	yes, good
15:59	AWizzArd	kotarak: today chouser and I discovered that loop could be improved
15:59	LauJensen	joly: He's the description for Pods : http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Cells
16:00	joly	LauJensen: cool, I'll check it out :)
16:00	ataggart	but the logic is currently a little overconstrained
16:00	kotarak	AWizzArd: in which way?
16:00	LauJensen	ataggart: in which way ?
16:00	AWizzArd	kotarak: there is sometimes a pattern in loop in which an expression shows up inside the bindings and in the recur
16:00	AWizzArd	for example, see slurp
16:00	AWizzArd	(loop [c (.read r)] ... (recur (.read r)))
16:01	ataggart	you can get WOR emessages that arg is byte when it is expected to be a long, so it boxes everything
16:01	AWizzArd	Today I stumbled upon this while I was implementing slurp-bytes
16:01	nickik	@kotarak the conffreaks guy takes for ever to upload that video
16:01	AWizzArd	yeah, LauJensen should not chat so much but instead better upload a few videos (:
16:02	nickik	mmmh?
16:02	LauJensen	AWizzArd: So whats the optimization of that pattern ?
16:03	AWizzArd	LauJensen: the trick is to move out the var outside of the loop, and put it into a let, directly under the loop
16:03	AWizzArd	(loop [] (let [c (.read r)] ... (recur))
16:04	AWizzArd	Today I had the same. I started off with (loop [offset 0, remaining len, n (.read buffer offset remaining)] ...
16:04	ataggart	Example of "over-constrained": IllegalArgumentException recur arg for primitive local: i is not matching primitive, had: byte, needed: long
16:04	ataggart	that bytes aren't allowed to fit into a long is a bug imo
16:04	LauJensen	ataggart: no auto promotion of any kind is possible with primitives
16:04	AWizzArd	in the recur I would have to have something such as: (recur (+ offset n) (- remaining n) (.read buffer (+ offset n) (- remaining n))
16:04	ataggart	it is possible
16:05	ataggart	just not implemented
16:05	LauJensen	ataggart: not according to Rich, he said so explicitly today
16:05	kotarak	AWizzArd: yo. Used that strategy before.
16:05	AWizzArd	this means doubling the (+ offset n) thing, also for remaining
16:05	AWizzArd	kotarak: good
16:05	AWizzArd	What I did was moving the .read out of the loop and put it into a let, directly under the loop
16:05	AWizzArd	loop over let is the name of this design pattern
16:06	ataggart	Well, I submitted a patch that allows for full widening conversion of primitives
16:06	AWizzArd	named after its inventor, me :)
16:06	LauJensen	AWizzArd: Excuse me for asking, its been a long day, whats the gain in that ?
16:06	AWizzArd	anyway, there could be a loop2 that expands into the correct pattern, or a non-breaking extension to loop
16:06	AWizzArd	LauJensen: the gain is that the code becomes more readable and one can save to repeat things
16:07	AWizzArd	As you see, i have a .read in my loop bindings and in the recur
16:07	joly	LauJensen: don't need to repeat (.read r) in multiple places
16:07	alexyk	technomancy: when I was asking about two lein repl against the same JVM, I mean, can you say lein repl in another shell while in the same directory as the original one and get another repl against the same JVM like cake?
16:07	AWizzArd	slurp is doing the same, it has (loop [c (.read r)] .. and (recur (.read r)))
16:07	bmh	If I'm using a namespace and qualifying it 'as', what's the crumulent syntax for throwing an except in there?
16:08	bmh	(:use [clojure.contrib.io :as io :except spit]) didn't seem to do the trick
16:08	AWizzArd	I noticed that this pattern shows up from time to time when using loop. Now chouser and kotarak confirmed that they too stumbled upon this
16:08	ataggart	require goes :as, use goes with :only
16:08	ataggart	bmh: ^
16:08	kotarak	AWizzArd: I think the point is, that (.read r) is independent of the loop. So it doesn't need to be there.
16:08	AWizzArd	kotarak: yes
16:08	bmh	ataggart: Thanks
16:09	kotarak	Always be minimal.
16:09	AWizzArd	it’s just that it often is the first idea to put it into the loop
16:09	hiredman	AWizzArd: in some cases you can replae with something like (take-while identity (repeatedly #(.read something)))
16:09	AWizzArd	and if one does not want to, one needs this loop-over-let-pattern
16:09	AWizzArd	hiredman: yes, it is often nicer when I can go without the loop and use a higher-level construct
16:11	nickik	has anybody used lazytest?
16:12	LauJensen	nickik: I think stuartsierra has :)
16:13	nickik	@LauJensen don't think he likes it :)
16:17	nickik	this just dosn't work --> java -cp "src:test:classes:lib/:lib/dev/" lazytest.watch src test
16:27	bartj	I have triggered a bunch of "futures"
16:27	bartj	and I don't really care about the return val of those futures
16:28	bartj	but, I want all of them to finish executing
16:28	bartj	one option is for me to do a: @future
16:28	bartj	can I also do a call to (await)
16:29	bartj	or is await used only in the case of agents and should not be used for futures
16:35	LauJensen	await is for agents
16:35	LauJensen	deref is for blocking until future returns
16:36	freakazoid	it's slightly scary that deref sometimes blocks
16:37	LauJensen	makes sense though
16:37	freakazoid	having stuff in general that never blocks with some types and may block with other types is scary.
16:37	freakazoid	I like having functions/syntactic forms that I can just tell with my eyeballs will not block.
16:40	tomoj	LauJensen: https://gist.github.com/d3efe42b44bb0385c69f
16:40	tomoj	examples of paredit-convolute-sexp usage
16:40	tomoj	what do you think?
16:40	LauJensen	freakazoid: if your eyeballs can tell a future from another ref type, you should be good to go
16:41	LauJensen	tomoj: the video isnt playing :)
16:41	dnolen	LauJensen: future and promise
16:41	tomoj	heh
16:41	tomoj	I'm working on the video
16:41	tomoj	have to take notes on what to record
16:42	LauJensen	tomoj: Its hard for me just to read, not knowing the functions individually, so I think I have to get par-edit going and tag along :)
16:42	freakazoid	LauJensen: your eyeballs can determine types in a dynamically typed language without having to look at every place a function is called from?
16:42	LauJensen	Also, just looking at the conversion Im thinking, that'll take me 2 seconds to re-write with just standard emacs commands, how long does that sequence take you to hammer out?
16:43	LauJensen	freakazoid: The semantantics for blocking/non-blocking are completely different
16:43	tomoj	LauJensen: 2 seconds?
16:43	tomoj	that's why I posted it
16:43	freakazoid	LauJensen: I agree it's not a huge deal, since it's unlikely someone will pass in a future when you expect a ref
16:43	tomoj	how do you do the conversion?
16:44	tomoj	in actuality I hardly ever use paredit-convolute-sexp
16:44	LauJensen	C-k C-n M-f^3 C-y something something
16:44	LauJensen	:)
16:44	tomoj	and then you have to fix your parens?
16:44	LauJensen	tomoj: but that only takes the last 0.1s
16:45	tomoj	I'm just collecting facts
16:45	LauJensen	And I appreciate it. Im just telling you the reason for my hesitance. But if your screencast shows me that you're faster than me, Im switching to paredit, no doubt about it :)
16:46	tomoj	do you use rainbow mode or something like it
16:46	tomoj	or just show-paren-mode?
16:46	LauJensen	tomoj: just show-paren
16:46	LauJensen	I would never, ever, use rainbow parens :)
16:47	LauJensen	kotarak asked me, does clojure-mode have rainbow parens? I said no. But why? he asked. I said "because mostly its men who use it"
16:47	LauJensen	So he stopped bragging about vim-clojure for a little while
16:48	kotarak	-.-
16:48	kotarak	LauJensen: you have to accept your feminin side. Geez...
16:49	LauJensen	haha
16:49	LauJensen	So un-kraut like
16:49	tomoj	you can change the colors so they're not rainbow :P
16:49	tomoj	I just use show-paren-mode too though
16:49	tomoj	but I never have to balance
16:54	tomoj	LauJensen: mind if I continue to ping you for comment?
16:54	LauJensen	not at all
16:54	scottj	tomoj: cool didn't know about convolute. it has a small bug though as at (foo (bar\|)) with no space between r and ) it yields (bar(foo ))
16:57	esj	LauJensen: "...men who use it" LMAO.
16:57	LauJensen	:D
16:58	LauJensen	esj: Its all good fun, a couple of weeks from now kotarak will treat me to some roasted apples in the heart of Frankfurt, right old buddy? :D
16:59	kotarak	LauJensen: yup. :)
16:59	esj	LauJensen: I think you may be on the hook for some weissbier first
16:59	kotarak	esj: bleh. Weißbier. :( Äppelwoi!
17:00	esj	oh dear, if its anything like cider....
17:00	lancepantz	roasted apples eh? that sounds tasty
17:01	kotarak	esj: yeah. roughly. But cider has a sweet taste. Äppelwoi / Apfelwein is more sour.
17:01	kotarak	lancepantz: yup. :)
17:01	lancepantz	i need to go to europe
17:01	LauJensen	lancepantz: come to the next conj labs :)
17:01	lancepantz	i wonder if i could get work to pay for it :P
17:02	esj	lancepantz: yeah - roast apfels. No rainbows, though.
17:02	LauJensen	lancepantz: If you cant, give me their phone # and I'll talk to them
17:02	LauJensen	Its a sensible investment
17:03	lancepantz	i can just see the expense report $1,500 -- roasted apples
17:03	LauJensen	hehe, then you KNOW that kotarak was involved
17:04	lancepantz	:P
17:04	LauJensen	$1,500 roasted apples in funny colors
17:04	kotarak	But tasty!
17:04	LauJensen	I wish I could talk about some famous danish meal, but we have no tradition for food :)
17:05	esj	kotarak: you gotta tell me how to roast these apples, i've got hundreds in my garden right now, and there's only so much apple pie 1 man can eat.
17:05	lancepantz	oh man, i used to have plumb three in my 2m x 4m yard
17:06	lancepantz	during plumb season i couldn't even throw them away fast enough
17:06	LauJensen	esj: haha
17:06	lancepantz	i ended up bags full of them in the freezer
17:06	LauJensen	lancepantz: you should make smoothies
17:06	lancepantz	the best was sangria :)
17:07	kotarak	esj: you can get some ideas here: http://bit.ly/96QcNb
17:07	esj	Sangria !
17:07	lancepantz	best i've ever had
17:07	kotarak	Although the english translation looses a bit in details
17:07	esj	hmmm..... that's german.
17:07	esj	i think i can speak german when very drunk
17:07	esj	but am assured by all those who can, that I am mistaken
17:08	esj	kotarak: all the recipes my anglo-google know for roasting apples seem to include a duck as well.... can't be correct.
17:08	LauJensen	esj: nobody can master german, not even german people
17:09	LauJensen	In 'high school' I had a german guy do my homework for me, he failed a least one of my papers
17:09	LauJensen	(german homework, that is)
17:09	esj	LauJensen: yeah, I can do dutch, and when drunk the hamming distance to german seems less
17:09	kotarak	esj: there is also an english translation in there. (in red) But it really is much less details :/
17:10	esj	kotarak: I'm going to get to the bottom of this !
17:15	bartj	kotarak, if it means anything, I use vimclojure
17:16	bartj	LauJensen, thanks for the clarification re: futures
17:16	LauJensen	np
17:17	kotarak	bartj: nice. I hope you find it useful.
17:19	bartj	kotarak, I think it doesn't add the closing parenthesis like paredit - which has been my biggest gripe
17:20	kotarak	bartj: It doesn't. There are a plethora of plugins like autoclose and friends. There is no real need for vimclojure to provide that. Although the "close inner form" functionality is on my radar.
17:21	bartj	kotarak, would you consider doing a screen-cast / tutorial of how your vim + clojure setup looks like ?
17:22	bartj	kotarak, the way LauJensen did with his emacs setup ? Clojure users who use vim would love it.
17:23	bartj	kotarak, which plugin do you use for auto closing parens ?
17:43	lypanov	imagine a hypothetical situation, you lose your job, and want to do something useful for clojure within a 1-2 month period.
17:44	lypanov	so, what should i do? :P
17:44	technomancy	lypanov: that happened to me
17:44	technomancy	I wrote the Clojure PeepCode that month. =)
17:45	lypanov	technomancy: +1
17:46	lypanov	up to now i'm debating: playing with getting a prototype clj -> js translator working for a minimal subset to learn more about how that might be done in the future
17:46	lypanov	: getting clojure running on top of llvm.
17:46	lypanov	or um... playing with some sort of pallet based thing.
17:47	freakazoid	how about writing a MOO?
17:47	lypanov	freakazoid: a game hater is probably not the best person for that hehe
17:48	maacl	astoddard: Did you ever get anywhere with org-babel-clojure
17:48	freakazoid	Most MOOs were social
17:48	freakazoid	and I just meant the platform
17:48	lypanov	hehe
17:49	lypanov	freakazoid: i would like to make a clojure / websocket based wave client.
17:49	lypanov	hugod: i'd like to make a self healing thing.
17:49	freakazoid	google wave? isn't google abandoning that?
17:59	jjido	I am thinking of using metadata to hold type-related information
17:59	lypanov	freakazoid: google maybe. but the idea rocks.
18:00	jjido	does metadata get lost when passing a variable around?
18:01	jjido	and using assoc or merge on a record
18:03	freakazoid	lypanov: I agree. Google just didn't seem to have a coherent vision around it.
18:04	duck1123	the emacs wave client has some clojure in it, but the maintainer gave up when google did
18:05	freakazoid	hard to blame them
18:05	freakazoid	(the maintainer)
18:05	duck1123	well, it had some clojure, it appears to be all emacs lisp now
18:06	freakazoid	How did it run the clojure bits? It depended on your having a JVM?
18:06	dnolen	jjido: using metadata for type info is supported
18:06	dnolen	,(type (with-meta {:foo 'bar} {:type ::my-type}))
18:06	clojurebot	:sandbox/my-type
18:07	dnolen	jjido: metadata is sticky
18:08	jjido	dnolen: I can put whatever I want there right? and if I put a keyword type makes it into a variable?
18:09	dnolen	jjido: not it's just a namespaced keyword not a variable, but you can put whatever you want there in the metadata map
18:11	kotarak	bartj I don't use auto-closing. I personally find it more annoying than helpful. Hitting the closing paren repeatable is good enough for me.
18:11	jjido	,(type (with-meta {:foo 'baz} {:type :last}))
18:11	clojurebot	:last
18:17	jjido	is it costly if I put a large record in there?
18:18	dnolen	jjido: dunno, but with a profiler you'll be able to easily see if that's a problem
19:28	tomoj	is there an asynch-io based DataInputStream?
20:00	amalloy	tomoj: java.nio has it. i'm not sure if there's a clojure wrapper
20:02	amalloy	http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/nio/package-summary.htm - it uses "Buffers" and "Channels" instead of streams, since the stream interface is blocking
20:04	tomoj	righ
20:04	tomoj	shoot
20:04	tomoj	aleph wraps it some
20:04	tomoj	but I'm not sure if in the right ways
20:04	hiredman	uh
20:04	tomoj	I wasted all this time writing to DataInputStream
20:04	hiredman	א wraps netty
20:04	hiredman	which is not the same thing as nio
20:06	tomoj	hiredman: ok
20:06	tomoj	does netty wrap nio?
20:06	tomoj	"nio" is ambiguous between java.nio and some kind of class of software which includes java.nio and netty?
20:07	hiredman	nio is java.nio
20:08	hiredman	netty maybe be built on nio
20:08	tomoj	"Netty - the Java NIO Client Server Socket Framework"
20:08	tomoj	ok
20:08	tomoj	so aleph maybe wraps it indirectly
20:08	hiredman	there are also nio "replacements" like xnio and things that correspond to netty for those
20:09	tomoj	ah
20:09	tomoj	I will stick with netty for aleph
20:10	ossareh	hey, I need to look up a var def'ed in a namespace that doesn't exist at compilation time. How can I get around that?
20:11	ossareh	or, more accurately, how can I tell the compiler to not try to eval it until runtime? lein uberjar is compiling all the files and it dies when looking up that var.
20:12	technomancy	,(doc ns-resolve)
20:12	clojurebot	"([ns sym]); Returns the var or Class to which a symbol will be resolved in the namespace, else nil. Note that if the symbol is fully qualified, the var/Class to which it resolves need not be present in the namespace."
20:12	ossareh	thanks phil!
20:12	technomancy	sure thing
20:13	tomoj	ooh, that is nifty
20:13	tomoj	I never thought about it before
20:13	ossareh	its how I'm achieving per jvm conf files for various clients
20:14	tomoj	interesting idea
20:15	tomoj	how do you pass the ns/var to use when loading the conf?
20:16	ztellman	tomoj: what are you trying to do with nio?
20:17	tomoj	implement a proprietary tcp protocol
20:18	ztellman	tomoj: well, I'd hope that aleph could do whatever you need
20:18	tomoj	that data is like <packet-1-byte><..DataOutputStream style fields determined by packet-1-byte><packet-2-byte><....>
20:18	tomoj	yes
20:18	tomoj	me too
20:18	ztellman	if not, please let me know
20:19	tomoj	unfortunately I don't understand it yet
20:19	ossareh	tomoj: does it have to be nio? I found blocking to a) be easier to prototype with, and b) perform better is a very important set of circumstance (i.e. not thousands of connections)
20:19	tomoj	hmm
20:20	ossareh	sounds like you're at some degree of investigation stage, I'd definitely work using blocking first
20:20	tomoj	aleph is just so cool that I want to use it
20:20	ossareh	haha =) fair enough!
20:20	tomoj	I wrote a blocking parser already
20:20	tomoj	but no server implementation
20:20	ztellman	ha
20:20	ztellman	tomoj: what do you mean no server implementation?
20:20	tomoj	I mean, I can read logs of the tcp data going between server and client
20:20	tomoj	but I cannot be a server or client yet
20:20	ztellman	ah
20:20	tomoj	just a proxy
20:21	ossareh	tomoj: the ns is loaded via (load-script "./config") which reads the file - important thing for me is that the file is outside of the jar.
20:21	tomoj	ah, hmm
20:21	tomoj	I was just thinking about that
20:21	tomoj	I was thinking you might specify a config file when building
20:21	tomoj	but outside of the jar would be nice for chef
20:22	ossareh	yeah, exactly
20:22	ztellman	tomoj: hopefully the wiki will give you some idea of how aleph is meant to be used
20:22	tomoj	yeah, just need to reread it. eventually I hope I'll achieve enlightenment after reading through the wiki?
20:22	ztellman	if not, send any questions you have to the mailing list
20:23	ztellman	tomoj: if there are things that are confusing after you've read through it, let me know what they are
20:23	tomoj	I'm just dumb
20:23	ztellman	the wiki's nowhere near as good as I'd like it to be
20:24	ztellman	understanding how you're confused will help me make it better
20:24	tomoj	oh, great
20:24	tomoj	I was confused about how to use a tcp-client
20:24	tomoj	now I see the wiki explains
20:24	ztellman	yeah, that's a recent addition
20:24	tomoj	:D
20:24	ztellman	like I said, the documentation is a work in progress
20:25	tomoj	I quite like the documentation made so far
20:25	ossareh	technomancy: quick question for you, is there some way I can switch on debugging or something in lein - it takes about 4 minutes to copy 12 jar files when doing uberjar - it reports that the files are going into lib/dev and the files that are in there... are not 4 minutes worth of copying.
20:25	tomoj	are pods or cells relevant to aleph?
20:25	tomoj	(both are mysteries to me)
20:25	ztellman	not especially, I think
20:26	tomoj	well, as there seem to be no huge performance difficulties with the way aleph is now, great
20:26	ztellman	as far as I understand them, pods are about making things immutable even when dealing with mutable data structures
20:27	ztellman	aleph is all about side effects
20:27	ztellman	anyways, I've got to run
20:27	tomoj	thanks for the help
20:27	ztellman	but don't be shy about questions
20:28	ztellman	they really do help me
20:29	tomoj	I think documentation writers should make it a habit to put use:only/require statements at the top of introductory examples
20:30	hiredman	it's a problem in the java comunity too, examples always leave out the imports
20:30	tomoj	I end up digging into project's sources over and over to remember where the functions are
20:30	tomoj	yeah
20:30	tomoj	and no .* in imports, dammit
20:30	tomoj	in examples
20:30	ossareh	whats the beef with .*?
20:30	tomoj	(analogously no :use without :only)
20:30	moogatronic	tomoj: I run into this problem with ever new language i'm learning as well. =)
20:31	tomoj	ossareh: I'm looking at the example in which several functions are used. I want some of them
20:31	ossareh	i understand from a clj pov
20:31	ossareh	I didn't from a java pov
20:31	tomoj	with .* it's the same
20:31	tomoj	just classes instead of functions
20:31	tomoj	and packages instead of namespaces
20:31	tomoj	if it's only one .*, that's not so bad
20:31	tomoj	but if it's more than one, you have to guess or look up which package a class comes from
20:32	ossareh	ah, right - I see your angle now.
20:32	tomoj	I just want to know by looking at the readme so I don't have to mine down to ~/code/clojure/xxx/src/main/java/com/yyyy/foo/bar/
20:33	tomoj	but hey, ambiguous examples are better than no examples
20:34	technomancy	ossareh: no debugging hooks exist right now unfortunately.
20:34	technomancy	if you can make the project.clj public you could open an issue on it
20:34	technomancy	or if you can repro on a project.clj that you can paste somewhere public
20:35	ossareh	I think I can do one of those for sure
20:35	ossareh	thanks!
20:35	technomancy	sure; I'll see what I can do
20:36	ossareh	I'm gearing up to write a hook soon - excited :->
20:42	tomoj	I am thinking of building a dsl which compiles to a dsl, am I crazy?
20:42	jcromartie	yes
20:42	tomoj	think of thrift
20:43	tomoj	well, maybe not
20:43	tomoj	I was thinking of writing a language you'd use to write things like thrift clients/servers
20:43	tomoj	but not necessarily thrift, could be other binary formats
20:43	ossareh	you mean like protobuf?
20:43	tomoj	could be protobuf too
20:44	tomoj	you'd use this language to write implementations of protobuf, thrift, whatever in clojure
20:44	ossareh	sounds meta++
20:44	tomoj	and whatever the format, they all share some protocols
20:44	tomoj	which let you use them in e.g. aleph
20:45	tomoj	crazy, eh
20:53	KirinDave	Does anyone know how to make slime's complete-symbol more namespace-aware?
20:53	tomoj	what is missing?
20:54	KirinDave	It's not completing symbols from outside the current namespace?
20:54	tomoj	you mean like "bar/ba\|" TAB completes to bar/baz?
20:54	KirinDave	It doesn't, for me.
20:54	tomoj	right
20:54	KirinDave	But also, uses from other namespaces
20:54	KirinDave	Like I have a .syntax namespace that holds the macros
20:55	tomoj	I definitely get completion on uses from other namespaces
20:55	KirinDave	I currently don't.
20:55	tomoj	did you load the file?
20:56	tomoj	does the file's ns declaration have an ns docstring?
20:56	KirinDave	No.
20:56	tomoj	to which?
20:56	tomoj	you must load the file
21:01	tomoj	how does leiningen insert <git> and tag info into the pom?
21:01	tomoj	"Your branch is behind 'origin/master' by 258 commits, and can be fast-forwarded."
21:04	KirinDave	tomoj: I did load the file.
21:05	KirinDave	tomoj: I can get completion to work on the repl, but not in the buffers.
21:05	technomancy	tomoj: it does a partial parse of .git/config; see src/leiningen/util/maven.clj
21:05	tomoj	KirinDave: C-h k the key you're using to complete
21:05	tomoj	technomancy: cool
21:06	KirinDave	slime-complete-symbol
21:06	tomoj	does a leiningen client have access to that info for dependencies?
21:06	tomoj	I mean a "client" to the dependencies, not building them
21:06	technomancy	tomoj: you can always open the jar up and read the pom; that's the only way
21:07	technomancy	gotta jet; feel free to ask on the mailing list
21:07	tomoj	thanks
21:07	KirinDave	tomoj: https://gist.github.com/c9c8d6cb47fdc5416993
21:10	tomoj	KirinDave: swank-clojure version?
21:10	tomoj	I am having success with 1.3.0-SNAPSHOT
21:11	KirinDave	I'll try 1.3.0
21:14	KirinDave	tomoj: I wonder what I did to offend slime. Doesn't work for me.
21:15	tomoj	KirinDave: when you type C-c M-p in the buffer, what namespace is displayed by default?
21:15	tomoj	(the buffer's namespace?)
21:15	KirinDave	C-c M-p prompts me for a package name
21:16	tomoj	right
21:16	tomoj	do M-: (slime-current-package)
21:16	KirinDave	there is no default
21:16	tomoj	this is the problem
21:16	tomoj	(do that while in the buffer)
21:17	tomoj	KirinDave: how did you load the file? C-c C-k?
21:17	KirinDave	(user)
21:17	KirinDave	While in that buffer.
21:17	erikcw1	I've been playing with work ( http://github.com/clj-sys/work ) -- trying to setup a thread pool that will work through an SQS queue. I have the pool size set to 10, but from my logs it looks like only a single thread is running. Does anyone know what I may be missing?
21:20	tomoj	hmm
21:20	tomoj	does your protocol-machine macro mess with namespaces?
21:20	KirinDave	No.
21:21	tomoj	did you get slime from ELPA?
21:21	KirinDave	Yes.
21:21	tomoj	version?
21:21	KirinDave	I think so anyways.
21:21	tomoj	wow, I'm using 20091016
21:22	tomoj	I'm surprised mine works and yours doesn't
21:22	KirinDave	I was too
21:22	KirinDave	I am updating.
21:34	KirinDave	tomoj: I updated, but it still fails. It's like it doesn't understand it's not in user. :\
21:35	tomoj	how'd you update without restarting emacs?
21:36	KirinDave	I restarted emacs. :)
21:36	tomoj	oh
21:36	tomoj	I just assumed you used erc
21:37	KirinDave	tomoj: It's like it doesn't get it http://cl.ly/2iKv :)
21:39	tomoj	hmm, aquamacs
21:40	tomoj	could that be the problem?
21:40	tomoj	or, wait
21:40	tomoj	is that gnu emacs on mac?
21:40	KirinDave	Yes.
21:40	KirinDave	It's not aquamacs
21:40	KirinDave	I wonder if I have slime incorrectly set up.
21:40	tomoj	dunno, then
21:41	tomoj	there is no set up
21:41	KirinDave	I have to slime-mode every buffer. :\
21:41	tomoj	ah
21:41	KirinDave	That isn't the way it used to be.
21:41	tomoj	right
21:41	tomoj	I've seen that before
21:41	tomoj	mysteriously
21:41	tomoj	don't know now where I've seen it
21:41	tomoj	or how I fixed it..
21:41	tomoj	even if I fixed it
21:43	KirinDave	This is why emacs sucks so hard.
21:43	KirinDave	And why any language that depends on it in any way is pretty much doomed to minority status.
22:02	chouser	KirinDave: good thing clojure works great with vim, then. Majority status here we come!
22:02	KirinDave	chouser: Vim is at least as terrible. :\
22:02	chouser	:-D
22:03	moogatronic	... i spend more time playing with either vim or emacs than I do actually writing code.
22:03	moogatronic	as much as I hate it, eclipse works better for me.
22:04	moogatronic	vim is my rst / python editor of choice for the most part. Getting CCW working in eclipse took me all of 5 minutes... Emacs + anything still not working.. I spent a whole day trying to get vimclojure to work with the nailgun server and just gave up.
22:04	moogatronic	a day == a few hours
22:04	moogatronic	=)
22:05	chouser	I don't use vimclojure/nilgun stuff myself. I'm glad it works for some people, as I am glad people that like IDEs can use them with Clojure.
22:06	chouser	I need to be talked into liking eclipse. I'm hoping that happens for me at clojure-conj.
22:06	moogatronic	my problem is that i don't like big bloaty IDE's, but they seem to have the features I like.
22:06	moogatronic	without screwing around forever to get it to work.
22:07	moogatronic	i'm only a clojure hobbyist... I get paid to use eclipse and write boring business logic oriented webapps in java/eclipse.
22:08	moogatronic	I would be surprised if anyone talked you into "loving" eclipse... at least appreciating it maybe!
22:08	gowlin	eclipse would be sweet if its text editor wasn't so bad.
22:09	moogatronic	my mission tonight was to find a portable sane way to reduce the glare of the bright white background in eclipse, to little avail.
22:10	moogatronic	f.lux helps a lot actually, other equiv's for other os's...
22:10	grettke	moogatronic: my co-worker loves Eclipse
22:13	moogatronic	grettke: I think for java it's great. Other than i feel that I need a 2560x1600 screen to fully use it. =)
22:13	grettke	moogatronic: lol
22:14	moogatronic	I honestly think I'm using "editors" as a scape goat to prevent myself from fully diving into a non-java/python language.
22:15	grettke	moogatronic: you might like emacs if you like eclipse
22:17	moogatronic	I want to like emacs. I've just had so many years of emacs and vim that it's difficult. I like the philosophy behind emacs.
22:17	moogatronic	but even when configuring my init.el, I find myself using vim to do it.
22:18	moogatronic	meant to say "eclipse and vim'.. =)
22:19	rich_holygoat	heh, I do the same thing -- vim ~/.emacs
22:19	rich_holygoat	guess I think of Emacs as a programming environment and Vim as a text editor
23:00	scottj	If you want to read more than one thing from a string, is (read-string (str "(" "a 2" ")") ) the way to do it?
23:03	chouser	scottj: that's the easiest way
23:03	scottj	is that lazy?
23:03	chouser	otherwise you need to set up a StringReader, etc.
23:03	chouser	,(class (read-string "(a 2)"))
23:03	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
23:03	chouser	nope
23:04	scottj	functions are only lazy if they return a lazyseq?
23:05	chouser	I wouldn't go that far, but a PersistentList is definitely not lazy
23:13	don-cobra	By default, using starter-kit and installing clojure-mode, etc. it looks like clojure 1.0 is installed. What is the easiest way to point to compiled version of master?
23:14	don-cobra	Newbie here trying to get emacs setup w/ latest clojure.
23:32	freakazoid	damn, I made a gist of the relevant section of my .emacs for don-cobra and everything.
23:34	technomancy	mmm... new John Rose blog post.
23:34	technomancy	brain food... om nom nom.
23:37	technomancy	http://blogs.sun.com/jrose/entry/larval_objects_in_the_vm
23:38	freakazoid	that dude needs a better picture
23:39	technomancy	he's a JVM superhero; the grainy picture is just there to protect his true identity
23:40	freakazoid	Ohh
23:45	technomancy	is it pretty reasonable to assume a resolution of 1024-786 for conj presentations?
23:46	defn	No offense to Stuart Sierra, but does he not look a lot like Matthew Broderick?
23:48	defn	Also, I am not very familiar with how one might tackle writing to a file with Clojure in two separate processes. My friend is working on a project for a Java class where he has to handle the locking of a file so he can write to it from two different threads. On OSX apparently this works without much work, but on Windows his solution breaks.
23:49	defn	Could anyone offer any possible avenues one might take with Clojure to accomplish something like this?
23:49	defn	I mean I can think of a few -- but I'm curious what other folks would suggest...
23:53	scottj	have an agent and send it messages from the two threads telling it to spit in the file? (I don't know the right answer)
23:58	tomoj	ztellman: ping
23:58	ztellman	tomoj: what's up?
23:58	tomoj	.. (siphon ch broadcaster) (siphon broadcaster ch) .. doesn't this blow the stack?
23:59	tomoj	on the Channels wiki entry, the multicast example
23:59	ztellman	no, because 'ch' in this case isn't unidirectional, it's one half of a bidirectional endpoint
23:59	tomoj	guess I'm not using it right
23:59	ztellman	did you manage to blow the stack?
23:59	tomoj	yeah
23:59	ztellman	hmm
23:59	tomoj	(def a (channel)) (connection-handler a)