#clojure – 2010-10-06

2010-10-06

00:00	tomoj	and similarly for b, c
00:00	ztellman	oh, yeah
00:00	ztellman	(channel) is unidrectional
00:00	ztellman	(channel-pair) returns two halves
00:00	ztellman	the channels given you by a connection handler is not unidirectional
00:01	ztellman	are not*
00:05	tomoj	I see
00:05	tomoj	so you pass the second halves of clients to connection-handler
00:06	tomoj	err
00:11	tomoj	yeah I see
00:11	tomoj	thanks
00:47	defn	scottj: that was my guess at a solution
00:52	tomoj	is there a reason to write in two threads instead of having the two threads tell a third to write?
00:56	freakazoid	use a lock?
01:30	defn	tomoj: im not sure he either a.) thought of doing that already, or b.) is not allowed by the very rules of the assignment
01:32	tomoj	ah
01:33	defn	tomoj: wouldn't you prefer to use Clojure's coordination mechanisms, though?
01:36	tomoj	like what?
01:36	tomoj	locking ?
02:50	defn	tomoj: coordinated changes
02:51	defn	tomoj: where is the lock?
02:59	LauJensen	Good morning
03:00	defn	morning Lau
03:00	defn	Are you going to clojure-conj?
03:01	lypanov	morning all.
03:02	carkh	defn : for threads, i would use an agent to control the reading/writing, and have my two threads communicating with it
03:03	carkh	defn : for processes there is java.nio.channels.FileLock I guess
03:04	LauJensen	defn: Im sorry to say that Im not :(
03:46	tobiasraeder	hi
03:49	LauJensen	hi
03:51	esj	Salut LauJensen !
03:52	LauJensen	Salut salut mon Edmund !
03:54	esj	oh oh... he knows my name. I'm in trouble now.
03:54	tobiasraeder	Morning to the two of you :)
03:55	esj	and you tobiasraeder
03:56	tobiasraeder	does any of you fine people know a good example on the gen-class macro with using the state?
04:01	tobiasraeder	i think i found something now
04:04	tomoj	abstract classes can extend concrete classes?!
04:04	tobiasraeder	might actually be
04:04	tobiasraeder	can you use the gen-class macro only inside a ns declaration with :gen-class and not on its own like gen-interface?
04:07	tomoj	you can use it on its own too
04:08	sempah	hello, I am just checking refs/stm out. If i define a struct (defstruct account :owner :balance), how can I alter the balance in a function?
04:09	sempah	have something like this: (dosync (alter - @(from-account :balance) amount)))
04:09	raek	sempah: structs implement the same interface as maps, so you can use 'assoc'
04:10	raek	alter takes a function, that when called with the old value shoul return the new value
04:10	raek	(dosync from-account update-in [:balance] amount)
04:11	tobiasraeder	if i can use gen-class alone, can it be used in the repl to just create a class like gen-interface (and then importing it)? or does it have to be compiled at startup?
04:11	raek	new-value = (update-in old-value [:balance] amount)
04:11	sempah	thx, i will check this
04:11	raek	tobiasraeder: I think it is a no-op, unless you do AOT
04:11	tobiasraeder	mhm
04:12	raek	sempah: sorry. (dosync from-account update-in [:balance] #(- % amount))
04:12	sempah	merci
04:12	raek	the previous example was some weird blend of update-in and assoc-in
04:13	raek	,(doc update-in)
04:13	clojurebot	"([m [k & ks] f & args]); 'Updates' a value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a sequence of keys and f is a function that will take the old value and any supplied args and return the new value, and returns a new nested structure. If any levels do not exist, hash-maps will be created."
04:13	raek	ah
04:13	raek	(dosync from-account update-in [:balance] - amount), even
04:13	raek	now i gotta go. good luck!
04:15	sempah	bye
04:18	LauJensen	Has somebody written a nice log4j wrapper ?
04:24	scottj	beyond c.c.logging?
04:28	LauJensen	scottj: Im asking if something like that exists, otherwise c.c.logging will have to do
04:29	tobiasraeder	does anyone know why gen-and-load-class is commented out currently?
04:30	scottj	LauJensen: you know log4j is one of the backends for c.c.logging right?
04:30	LauJensen	scottj: I imagined that it was yea
04:54	sempah	hmm I dont get it
04:55	sempah	(dosync (ref-set from-account (assoc @from-account :balance amount)))
04:55	sempah	now the new balance will be set
04:55	sempah	but how can I do something like balance - amount
05:02	LauJensen	,(let [account (ref {:amount 100})] (dosync (alter account update-in [:amount] - 10)) @account)
05:02	clojurebot	{:amount 90}
05:02	LauJensen	final deref is just for show
05:04	sempah	this works
05:04	sempah	muchas gracias ;)
05:05	LauJensen	no problemo muchachos
05:05	jjido	is ^ a shortcut for (with-meta)?
05:06	hiredman	no
05:07	hiredman	,(meta ^{:foo true} (conj () 1))
05:07	clojurebot	nil
05:07	hiredman	,(meta (with-meta (conj () 1) {:foo true}))
05:07	clojurebot	{:foo true}
05:07	LauJensen	And in 1.3 ^keyword is {:keyword true}
05:07	LauJensen	^:keyword, sorry
05:09	Chousuke	^ attaches metadata at read-time
05:09	Chousuke	with-meta at runtime
05:17	jjido	hiredman: LauJensen Chousuke: thanks
05:19	LauJensen	Looking at disclojure.org this morning, I think Gosling just earned himself another Clojure vs Java - Smackdown blogpost :)
05:19	Chousuke	:P
05:24	jjido	,(let [a 2 b 'a] ~b)
05:24	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var clojure.core/unquote is unbound.
05:27	esj	i wonder if we could email him a bag of parentheses ? Seems like something thinkgeek.com should stock.
05:28	jjido	,(let [a 2 b (delay a)] @b)
05:28	clojurebot	2
05:28	LauJensen	esj: Or maybe a copy of "Programming for beginners", since he hasn't learned to look past the superficial yet, seems like a pretty 101 topic
05:29	esj	eish !
05:29	jjido	,(let [b (delay a)] (let [a 2] @b))
05:29	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context
05:30	jjido	Mmh, what is the magic formula?
05:31	LauJensen	jjido: You had it right in the 2nd try, but I dont think you understand delay
05:32	jjido	LauJensen: I don't need delay
05:32	LauJensen	then the trick is to stop using it :)
05:32	jjido	LauJensen: I need a symbol that I can resolve later
05:33	jjido	,(let [a 2 b 'a] (eval b))
05:33	clojurebot	DENIED
05:33	defn	naughty eval
05:33	esj	a delay is that, and a promise is related usually for multitheraded. (warning - I am a beginner so prone to error)
05:34	esj	i think the reason your v2 code doesn't work is that a is not in lexical scope when b is defined so it gets no further
05:34	defn	esj that's actually a neat idea -- code magnets -- with real code
05:34	defn	has it been done already?
05:34	defn	...probably...
05:34	esj	defn: ooooh it would be great for clojure, so few keywords !
05:35	LauJensen	jjido: (defmacro cheat [] `~'a) (let [a 5] (cheat))
05:35	defn	it would be fun to build gigantic functions using all of the functions only once
05:35	defn	or try to
05:36	esj	jjido: you're not looking for declare are you ?
05:36	jjido	esj: no I need it in a variable
05:36	jjido	,(defmacro cheat [] `~'a) (let [a 5] (cheat))
05:36	clojurebot	DENIED
05:37	LauJensen	jjido: you need to run that locally, we dont get to play with defmacro here
05:37	jjido	LauJensen: (eval) works
05:37	LauJensen	not here
05:37	jjido	in my program
05:40	jjido	that gives me 'a: (defmacro cheat [x] `~x) (let [a 5 b 'a] (cheat b))
05:41	jjido	ok I need to keep `~'
05:41	jjido	works as well.
05:42	jjido	er, doesn't.
05:43	jjido	LauJensen: I will use eval :)
05:43	LauJensen	eval?
05:43	clojurebot	eval is DENIED
05:43	LauJensen	eval?
05:43	clojurebot	eval is DENIED
05:43	LauJensen	oh, usually clojurebot says something funny
05:49	defn	is there any bad blood between cake and lein? It seems like a merging of the two would be beneficial to all.
05:49	LauJensen	defn: There are disagreements which cannot be resolved, so use cake
05:50	defn	Granted they are interoperable for the most part-- I guess I just think about merb and rails in the ruby community and how it was a good thing to merge instead of splinter.
05:50	lypanov	merging is silly.
05:50	lypanov	and thats a bad example, the merb lead is insane.
05:50	defn	Fork when forking is necessary.
05:50	lypanov	(ly good)
05:51	lypanov	are you some sort of communist?
05:51	defn	Don't when the net benefits are < net gain.
05:51	lypanov	(i always wanted to say that)
05:51	defn	I'm an Umehricun
05:51	lypanov	yeah, communist then. :)
05:52	defn	Build tool debate is lame.
05:52	LauJensen	eh?
05:52	LauJensen	The build tool debate has so far produced 2 great Clojure build tools
05:53	defn	Your perception of how I was using "debate" is different than I meant.
05:54	defn	Some people are quite vocal about which build tool ought to be used. The debate is not the code that has been produced as a result of disagreement over how the build story should go.
05:54	LauJensen	The major disagreement was the dependency based task model which cake uses. Phil didn't see a need for it
05:54	defn	But I suppose those two things are intertwined.
05:55	defn	LauJensen: would you mind expanding -- when you say dep based task model I'm not sure exactly what you mean.
05:55	LauJensen	sec
05:55	defn	As in -- it has support for (deftask ...), whereas lein doesn't?
05:55	sandGorgon	is cake written in ruby ?
05:55	defn	sandGorgon: I'm so glad you mentioned that.
05:55	LauJensen	http://github.com/ninjudd/cake - Read the tasks section and the advanced tasks section
05:55	LauJensen	sandGorgon: No, it has a small (and getting smaller) Ruby bootstrap, which makes it completely crossplatform, where lein is mostly unix since it uses bash instead
05:56	defn	I was thinking about this earlier -- people's aversion to the fact that something is written in Ruby (not that it is.)
05:56	LauJensen	(and .bat on Windows)
05:56	sandGorgon	defn, huh ? I was looking at the docs just now - i'm a bit confused
05:56	LauJensen	I gotta say I hate Ruby, but I love Ruby for small things like this. It gave cake exactly what it needed, a piggy back distrubtion on top of gems
05:56	sandGorgon	LauJensen, ah...
05:56	defn	What I wanted to say is that I think when a project like cake is started in a relatively fresh language like Clojure
05:56	lypanov	LauJensen: and really nice install.
05:56	defn	it spawns people who will take up the cause
05:57	lypanov	s/and/with/
05:57	sexpbot	<lypanov> LauJensen: with really nice install.
05:57	defn	and turn the ruby into clojure
05:57	defn	things like cake where there is ruby inspires community to rise up and port the ruby ideas to clojure
05:57	lypanov	i personally think competition always helps.
05:57	lypanov	open source does what it needs to do.
05:58	lypanov	people merge when merging is what people want to do.
05:58	defn	as long as it's /healthy/ competition
05:58	lypanov	forcing or coercing removes the point.
05:58	lypanov	all competition is inherently annoying to someone.
05:58	lypanov	be it due to fragmentation or loss or either side.
05:58	lypanov	doesn't mean its bad though. still produces better things than not
05:59	lypanov	both projects are still too young to really talk about it in this way anyway.
06:00	lypanov	(disclaimer, i was involved early on in a competitor to rubygems, and still hate many things about gems, the things that plague it still today in fact)
06:00	defn	rvm is a way of fixing rubygems
06:00	defn	thank god for gemsets
06:00	defn	also -- one annoyance that has hurt my soul forever...
06:01	tomoj	LauJensen: why would you need a piggyback distribution on top of gems?
06:01	defn	gem search foo returns local results by default -- the majority of searching people do is remote, so with gems you need to gem search -r foo
06:01	defn	gem list foo should return a local list of gems matching foo
06:01	defn	not search...
06:01	LauJensen	tomoj: Well you need to piggyback something or write it from scratch
06:02	tomoj	I guess lein did have to write it from scratch
06:02	tomoj	and it isn't pretti
06:02	lypanov	defn: for me its the lack of good distribution integration that hurts it most.
06:02	defn	lypanov: ya i needed to do some weird wrangling on ubuntu to make certain gems behave
06:02	tomoj	that is not so good for lein either
06:02	defn	that's not right.
06:02	LauJensen	tomoj: lein doesnt have it
06:03	sandGorgon	what are the "disagreements" between lein and cake ?
06:03	tomoj	lein has the shell script you run to self-install
06:03	defn	persistent jvm, tasks built in
06:03	LauJensen	tomoj: exactly, and it doesnt work on Windows, hence the gems
06:03	tomoj	which is 169 lines long
06:03	tomoj	well, there's a .bat file there
06:03	defn	cake has more features than lein
06:03	tomoj	it doesn't work?
06:03	defn	that's the debate
06:03	tomoj	(also, who cares? :P)
06:03	LauJensen	tomoj: Ive not heard anybody who has got it working yet
06:03	LauJensen	I care
06:04	tomoj	the readme suggests it can be done
06:04	tomoj	"On Windows most users can 1. Download the Windows distribution lein-win32.zip 2. Unzip in a folder of choice. 3. Include the "lein" directory in PATH."
06:04	LauJensen	The difference are 1) Cake is cross-platform, lein isnt, 2) Cake has a persistent VM, lein doesnt 3) Cake has a dependency based task system, lein has plugins, 4) Cake does not try to tell you how to name your projects, lein does. 5) Cake is Ivy based, lein is Maven based
06:05	tomoj	ouch
06:05	tomoj	I can have cake/ivy using maven's dependency model?
06:06	LauJensen	Yep
06:06	mrBliss	I use Leiningen on Windows (Cygwin). I only had to modify a couple of lines in the bash script.
06:06	tomoj	does cake do that by default?
06:06	tomoj	hmm, that is pretty interesting
06:07	tomoj	it's a rubygem, so I could install it easily with chef, and easily run it during deploys or as a service
06:07	LauJensen	Maven => Ivy brings Cakes dependencies down from 27 to 7 jars
06:07	tomoj	and I can hook it up to my nexus repo?
06:08	hiredman	you run your build tool when doiing a deploy?
06:10	tomoj	yeah
06:18	rrc7cz	are off topic discussions okay here?
06:19	LauJensen	rrc7cz: On slow days we sorta accept it, but there's #clojure-casual for chit/chat
06:19	LauJensen	hiredman has a zero tolerance policy on everything though :(
06:19	rrc7cz	LauJensen: it's IT/archetecture related, not directly Clojure
06:19	rrc7cz	aha
06:19	LauJensen	shoot
06:22	LauJensen	rrc7cz: I said: shoot
06:22	LauJensen	:)
06:22	rrc7cz	we have a hairy problem with no clear answer, and we can't seem to reach any conclusion or plan. We have lots of data, lots of apps, and multiple (distributed geographically) development teams. You have the typical legacy app problem found in most internal IT depts: mish mashed chaos for app integration. Some apps directly access other's dbs, some file system integration is used (copy to shared dir or FTP to shared dir), some primative
06:22	rrc7cz	web services, some RMI, the whole bit. Some of us - myself included - have been pushing for asynchronous messaging + local read-only data caches to be used for the majority of integration moving forward.
06:25	rrc7cz	others would like to see a "giant app". By this I mean: if you have 4 apps that all require access to largely the same data, perhaps they should be combined into a single, larger app. Multiple teams would work on this app using branches, CI, libraries, etc. to try and still segment/modularize their work as much as possible, but the final deployable artifact would be a single application. Now there are pros and cons to both
06:25	rrc7cz	approaches. The distributed messaging pro is that apps/functionality are largely decoupled: one app goes down but others stay up since they have their local read-only caches of the data. The con is that it's more complex and you could have data sync issues, though we'd be using JTA to mitigate this as much as possible. The Pro of "giant app" is you have no data sync issues, but you have let's say.. development issues. Vastly different
06:25	rrc7cz	features and teams and customers all on this one codebase, scheduling, sychronizing, some technical issues like library versions, etc.
06:26	rrc7cz	sorry, didn't mean to flood the channel, just trying to explain it clearly
06:28	rrc7cz	of course there are many more pros/cons to both approaches, but I think you'd know them
06:28	esj	loose decoupling and modularisation seem to me to be most important
06:29	rrc7cz	and there are various bits of middle ground I didn't mention: multiple WARs but packaged in a single EAR, or using sync web service calls instead of async messaging, thereby solving the data sync/duplication of a local read-only cache, but more tightly coupling the apps so one "source" failure takes down all consumers
06:29	esj	lots of teams seem to rave about async msg queues
06:30	sandGorgon	how would you build a async msg system on clojure - aleph ? ring ?
06:30	jjido	is there a better way to do (letfn [(foo ([a] (foo a 0)) ([a b] (+ a b)))] foo)?
06:30	rrc7cz	esj: that's what most of us were pushing for. The main argument against it comes from management because there is a _clear_ technical overhead to it (JMS infrastructure, JTA, etc), while the overhead of "giant app" I feel is harder to perceive; it's mostly in "soft" areas like coordinating teams, customer requests, PM, etc
06:31	rrc7cz	esj: I should say, that's what most developers were pushing for. Ops + management is taking more of the other side. For operations it's clear: JMS + many smaller apps is much more work, infrastructure, and overhead for them
06:31	esj	in most cases its easier to get a technical thing correct than a soft/managerial thing because you can define and control is clearly
06:32	rrc7cz	sandGorgon: our implementation would look like ActiveMQ as the JMS message broker + Java apps using Spring Integration to wrap JMS w/JTA
06:32	hiredman	ouch, I don't think I've ever heard anything good about activemq
06:32	rrc7cz	sandGorgon: I recently pushed (hard) for Clojure to be approved as a dev language here, but the best I was able to do was Scala. The reasons were 100% personel related (where can I hire Clojure devs, etc)
06:32	esj	rrc7cz: not rabbitmq ?
06:33	tomoj	I lucked out and happened to get a new boss who loves clojure :)
06:34	rrc7cz	hiredman, esj: we selected ActiveMQ because it appeared to have the largest number of adapters (we also need to support .Net, some other weird stuff), it had enough books/consulting available to back up an "enterprise" (barf at the name, but..) and so on
06:34	hiredman	rrc7cz: you can buy copies of http://www.amazon.com/Enterprise-Integration-Patterns-Designing-Deploying/dp/0321200683 for everyone
06:34	rrc7cz	hiredman: I have it and read it. It's actually what started my push for async messaging
06:36	sandGorgon	hiredman, what I was about to say. the inventors of OpenAMQ are getting behind zeromq and the Stomp protocol (rather than JMS)
06:36	rrc7cz	hiredman: there seems to be general agreement that in a world with no schedule and unlimited resources, async messages - where it's applicable - is the absolute best way to do things. Of course when we talk about JMS infrastructure, local data caches, JMS adapters, etc. the additional cost is clear. We know "giant app" has additional costs too, but as I said they are less clear and hence less painful to discuss
06:36	esj	rrc7cz: another stick to beat them with is testing. Small pieces are significantly easier.
06:36	esj	rrc7cz: although you have the extra layer....
06:37	hiredman	rrc7cz: what you described, multiple teams, multiple projects, seems like the ideal case for the flexible approach of async messaging
06:37	tomoj	jjido: (fn ([a] a) ([a b] (+ a b)))
06:37	rrc7cz	I should also say that very little async messaging has been deployed so far, and what is there was coded against the JMS API. What I mean to say is that we could still swap out message brokers if we wanted to, but that isn't our main problem. Our main problem is the larger picture of which model to use and when. Right now we understand we're going to use both models, but how do you select one of ther other?
06:38	sandGorgon	rrc7cz, if u dont mind my asking - what is the use case ? trading desks, company-internal messaging systems ?
06:38	bmh	Does anyone have recommendations for clojure parser generators?
06:38	jjido	tomoj: that was just an example LOL. I don't want code duplication between the body for both arities
06:38	rrc7cz	esj: we thought about the testing argument. To some degree "giant app" isn't any worse; you can still write plenty of unit and integration tests for your code. The place where we DID argue testing is: one team can bring down the entire app. One team blowing out the heap affects everyone. As such we agreed that QA was a much higher priority in the "giant app" model
06:39	jjido	is there a better way to do (letfn [(foo ([a] (foo a 0)) ([a b] (do-something-complicated-with a b)))] foo)?
06:40	tomoj	(fn foo ([a] (foo a 0)) ([a b] (+ a b)))
06:40	hiredman	uh, well, "integration" still means it is a giant app, the components of which use a particular communication style that allows for maximum flexibility
06:40	hiredman	qa is still very important
06:41	rrc7cz	hiredman: most of us agree that it's ideal, but in some of the projects it's not as clear. Obviously it's a gradient. There is a point where combining apps makes some sense. Our pain is not having a clear idea of how to decide/what factors to use. Right now we're just thinking "when an app is pullilng A LOT of data from system X, maybe it should be part of system X". But what is "a lot" of data? How much is too much?
06:41	hiredman	I don't see how that follows at all
06:42	rrc7cz	sandGorgon: Salesforce apps + custom legacy CRM + document publishing/workflow systems + Product management systems + user (internal & external) systems + data analysis and tracking systems + public website + product distribution
06:42	esj	hiredman: on the money. with a monolithic giant system its up to you to define the interconnects. you'll fail.
06:42	sandGorgon	ahh.....
06:42	rrc7cz	sandGorgon: and about 100 more I won't bother mentioning, inlcluding a bunch of desktop VBA/.Net tools used by 1000+ ppl
06:42	hiredman	rrc7cz: data sources are just data sources, they are not the app
06:43	rrc7cz	hiredman: that's true about "integration". I think the "giant app" side is thinking "how can we get this project done the fastest with the least resources and the least infrastructure" while the async msg side is thinking "how can we build the most robust solution"
06:44	rrc7cz	hiredman: not sure what doesn't follow
06:44	rrc7cz	hiredman: about the interconnects: there is an argument that "giant app" will detect contract breaks at compile time, while distributed systems will detect it at run time
06:45	rrc7cz	hireman: to expand on the point, integration in a giant app is one module directly invoking (method invoke) the api of another module. if that api changes, you see that at compile time
06:46	rrc7cz	hiredman: with async msg, you have to manage a contract through something like an XML Schema or something, whose changes might not be apparently as quickly to the other parties in the contract
06:46	hiredman	which makes changing modules very difficult
06:47	hiredman	a schema is pretty heavy weight, really you just want be sending maps with some agreed upon keys
06:50	rrc7cz	hiredman: if you said, "I don't see how that follows at all" regarding the existance of a gradient, think of this: you have a user management system. Now you want to add biographies to the users. You probably wouldn't build a "User Biography" app, because the overhead wouldn't make sense. That Bio app would probably be pulling every single user field from the User Management app. You'd basically be making a heavyweight UI. You'd instead
06:50	rrc7cz	just add the functionality to the existing User Management "getting more giant" app. So there is a lot of gray area in deciding. "how much data" feels like one gague. "how related is the functionality" seems like another gague. But it's not clear cut
06:55	hiredman	uh
06:56	hiredman	that is a change to you datastorage (to store the bios) and a change to your ui to display them
06:56	rrc7cz	yes, that's right
06:57	hiredman	if your ui and your datastorage are so intertwined as all that then you have already lost
06:57	rrc7cz	I don't understand at all.
06:58	rrc7cz	this was an example: you want to expand the data model of a user. The example was: where do you put that extra functionality
07:01	hiredman	the ui parts go in the ui, the storage parts going in storage, connected by your message bus
07:02	rrc7cz	so you're recommending (in this example) that the UI and the storage logic (repository/dao/orm/whatever) are separated by a message bus? That doesn't seem to make sense
07:02	rrc7cz	the UI would have to cache the entire user data model locally just to display it
07:02	rrc7cz	unless you're talking about sync service bus or something
07:03	rrc7cz	in that case it does make sense
07:03	hiredman	rrc7cz: why would it have to cache the entire user data model?
07:04	rrc7cz	hiredman: because when the UI needs to display a user it needs that user's data model. If it connects to the storage system via a sync service of some sort, it can invoke the Get method and have the model immediately (or over the wire at delay) and we're fine
07:04	rrc7cz	hiredman: but we're talking mostly about using async messaging. Which means you'd either need to cache the user data locally when you get a "hey a new user was added to the storage system" message
07:05	rrc7cz	OR you'd have to use the async messaging system in a sync way (which it does support) by sending a "get me user X" message, then waiting for the reply
07:05	hiredman	you can easily do callbacks across a message queue
07:05	rrc7cz	but in that second case, you're not really using async messaging; if the storage system goes down, so does your UI. This also doesn't work in some cases where the data model is huge and you need performance. In those cases you have to have it locally.
07:06	rrc7cz	hiredman: absolutely, but then you're using async messaging in name only. What you're really doing is making a sync call
07:06	hiredman	tomato tomato
07:07	hiredman	so you are saying your dataset is too large for messages
07:08	rrc7cz	hiredman: in almost all cases, not at all, but the point is using a callback = sync service call = tight coupling which means it's really no different then using some web service or RMI
07:08	hiredman	it different
07:08	hiredman	it is
07:08	rrc7cz	how?
07:08	clojurebot	with style and grace
07:09	rrc7cz	you make the invocation and callback handler async, sure, but you don't address the coupling problem: when system X goes down, so does system Y
07:10	hiredman	but the ui logically depends on storage, if storage goes down, how would the ui continue to display information?
07:10	hiredman	you can cache data
07:10	rrc7cz	well in this storage/ui example I wouldn't use async messaging at all. I'd use sync calls for that very reason
07:11	hiredman	but if you use a message queue and keep your ui decoupled from storage, dropping a cache in between is easy
07:11	rrc7cz	but think about systems that aren't split into those horizonal tiers like this UI/storage example. Think of a User System and a Content system that need to talk
07:11	carkh	bmh: i've been successfull using joshuas choi parser library at http://github.com/joshua-choi/fnparse
07:12	bmh	carkh: I had a look at that, I wouldn't have minded more documentation
07:13	carkh	bmh : there is a sample jsion parser which is a great start for understanding the beast
07:13	hiredman	rrc7cz: it really sounds to me like you are stuck on this idea of all Noun realated functionality living in a single place
07:15	rrc7cz	hiredman: maybe. I feel like we're stuck between a more robust, but more expensive solution and a simpler, but more fragile solution. And clear answers only live on the peripheries
07:17	rrc7cz	hiredman: on one extreme you have User System supports First Name. Add Last Name. Okay it's clear, just add it to the existing User System. On the other extreme you have Public Website needs some data from the Accouting System. You wouldn't propose combining them. You'd just pull the data somehow. In between these extremes lives a lot of gray, and it's sometimes hard to navigate.
07:43	jjido	tomoj: (belated) thanks that is much better than letfn!
08:04	LauJensen	Does anybody have a simple yet up to date example of using c.c.logging with log4j ?
08:15	esj	i've got a working setup....
08:15	esj	LauJensen: it uses maven though :P
08:16	LauJensen	link?
08:16	clojurebot	your link is dead
08:17	esj	LauJensen: no link just local code
08:18	esj	it was just a case of get the deps, put the log4j config file in the right place (use c.c.logging) and (warn "blah blah blah")
08:18	esj	probably you want to do something more complex
08:19	esj	i just have the logs going to socket on a remote server
08:19	LauJensen	Basically I need to know how c.c.logging interfaces with log4j. Is there are config file you must initialize?
08:20	cemerick	LauJensen: have you tried it? It just works.
08:20	LauJensen	no
08:20	esj	yeah, you need the config in resources
08:20	esj	or I guess anywhere is the class path
08:20	cemerick	write yourself a simple log4j.properties, done
08:20	esj	a comprehensive example is : http://www.johnmunsch.com/projects/Presentations/docs/Log4J/log.properties
08:21	cemerick	jeez
08:21	cemerick	kitchen sink, more like :-)
08:21	cemerick	SocketAdapter? :-P
08:21	esj	that's what I'm using....
08:21	esj	cemerick: is that a mistake ?
08:21	cemerick	esj: not if if you need it
08:22	cemerick	I can't say I've ever logged over sockets
08:22	cemerick	logged to couchdb, but not sockets :-)
08:22	esj	cemerick: well, I like to have a big screen on the wall with the log from all the systems displayed on it.
08:22	cemerick	nifty
08:22	cemerick	All I've got is an iPad :-)
08:23	esj	that's much more impressive actually
08:23	LauJensen	thx
08:23	cemerick	oh?
08:24	esj	well, smaller is harder.
08:25	esj	you have to remember to look at it :) A flashing red bar on the wall is easy, thus less impressive.
08:27	esj	i use the app chainsaw (not great) for watching the logs. If you try apt-cache search for it in ubuntu all it gives you is perl..... :P
08:27	cemerick	Adding a red flash and an ominous-sounding alarm when things went sideways was a big improvement for the monitoring app :-)
08:27	esj	cemerick: the darth vader theme ?
08:28	cemerick	Hrm, I wasn't so clever.
08:28	cemerick	I don't quite remember where I got the audio. It's not anything notable.
08:48	LauJensen	cemerick: You can probably make sense of the new contrib build - Whats the artifact I need for c.c.logging ?
08:48	chouser	maybe org.clojure.contrib:logging:jar:1.3.0-SNAPSHOT ?
08:49	cemerick	I've not used anything in the 1.3.0 contrib at all.
08:49	cemerick	but chouser's suggestion seems reasonable.
08:49	LauJensen	k
08:49	LauJensen	Guess 1.3 is still a little too bleeding
08:50	cemerick	plenty of people are using it
08:51	LauJensen	By plenty you mean stuartsierra? :)
08:51	cemerick	everything should be considered bleeding until it's got an RC label on it IMO
08:51	kryft	Mmm, I can't wait getting started with clojure. (I just got Joy of Clojure yesterday.)
08:52	cemerick	LauJensen: nah, at least a dozen mentions of using 1.3.0 stuffs in here the past week
08:52	chouser	cemerick: have you settled on a tool for your presentation slides?
08:52	cemerick	ok, maybe not 'plenty'.
08:52	kryft	By the way, what kind of performance can one general expect compared to, say, C++?
08:52	esj	kryft: you're in for a treat.
08:52	kryft	s/general/in general
08:52	kryft	esj: :)
08:53	cemerick	chouser: I was never actually considering using anything other than powerpoint.
08:53	chouser	cemerick: oh, I misunderstood your question?
08:54	cemerick	chouser: I think so. I was having a little fun w/ people writing code for such things. :-)
08:54	cemerick	"How do I rotate this text?" "Oh, there's a jquery plugin for that."
08:55	cemerick	back to the minimalistic hacker ethos, I guess
08:55	chouser	oh, I didn't see those.
08:55	chouser	I'm having a blast with it. Best slide-creating experience I've ever had.
08:56	cemerick	that's a fabricated set of quotes.
08:56	cemerick	I could see using 280slides, but I'm not sure why I would.
08:57	kryft	chouser: A blast with what?
08:57	chouser	kryft: http://github.com/schacon/showoff
08:58	cemerick	"How do I add an image?" "Put your image in this directory over here, refer to it in your markdown, and then refresh your browser."
08:58	cemerick	OK, I'll shut up now.
08:59	kryft	chouser: Ah. :) Looks fun indeed.
09:01	chouser	I'm using embedded SVGs for charts and such. I can have one open in inkscape and have much more powerful tools than any presentation program I've ever seen. Then to see my changes in the preso is almost instantaneous: save the svg, reload in the browser.
09:10	esj	well that's all well and good but you'll have to sim your own BSOD.
09:10	esj	worthless
09:13	chouser	cemerick: how do you include a syntax-colored source snippet on a slide in powerpoint?
09:14	cemerick	chouser: I've never worried about syntax coloring in slides
09:16	cemerick	gosh, I hope that and svg support are the only benefits :-P
09:16	cemerick	This is going to degrade into the same track as the typical LaTeX v. everything else discussion.
09:20	chouser	Nah, we can leave it right here, each of us quitely and smugly self-assured that we each have a better presentation tool than the other.
09:21	cemerick	hrm, "better" is always a dodge. Everything is "better" than everything else, for someone.
09:22	chouser	which is how we can both be right
09:22	chouser	and smug
09:23	cemerick	I've beat a lot of it out of myself, but it crops up again sometimes.
09:29	kryft	Are there any nice presentation tools that allow you to use LaTeX for embedding math?
09:29	chouser	I get too defensive too easily. I need to keep working on internalizing that when I say "foo is really nice" and someone else says "you only think so because you're dumb" that they don't mean it personally.
09:30	chouser	kryft: I can't tell you're serious or if you're just trolling cemerick.
09:31	kryft	chouser: Haha! I'm serious - sorry if my question was sufficiently stupid that it made you wonder. ;)
09:32	abrenk	kryft: LaTeX using beamer class -> PDF -> using impressive (ex keyjnote) to display
09:32	LauJensen	kryft: Muse for Emacs
09:32	chouser	kryft: not at all, but I'm scared to answer. If you prefer latex to markdown, I bet it wouldn't be hard to tweak something like showoff to do it.
09:33	kryft	So far I've used latex-beamer for anything math-heavy, but frankly I'd prefer something a bit more wysiwyg for making slides.
09:33	chouser	essentially convert your latex source to a live presentation on-the-fly when the browser loads it.
09:34	chouser	clicking reload shows you the up-to-date version of the slide you were already looking at.
09:34	cemerick	chouser: oftentimes, they do mean it personally, which is a condition that is good to be able to detect and ignore as well.
09:34	chouser	cemerick: :-)
09:35	kryft	chouser: Heh, I hadn't even heard of markdown until you mentioned it. :P
09:36	chouser	kryft: my opinion-framework about document source formats is in complete shambles at the moment, so I have nothing to say about markdown except that it exists.
09:37	kryft	chouser: Heh, fair enough.
09:37	chouser	oh, and we used it sorta to right a book.
09:37	chouser	write
09:37	kryft	JoC?
09:37	s450r1`	heh
09:37	chouser	kryft: yeah
09:38	kryft	chouser: Ah. I've only started reading it, but I don't expect to see a lot of equations. :)
09:38	chouser	:-) no
10:14	shoover__	chouser: I can't believe you haven't moved over to split-screen emacs presentations yet
10:15	shoover__	But I guess if you must have fancy graphics...
10:18	chouser	:-)
10:18	chouser	but surely emacs and org-mode support graphics...
10:19	shoover__	only if you export to pdf, or html, but that diminishes the value of the live REPL
10:22	LauJensen	shoover__: You can have images in a regular buffer
10:23	shoover__	ok, sorry, I have to exlain this joke. Chouser once attended a little presentation I did for .NET developers, in which I displayed a simple outline in emacs and just typed in a REPL on the bottom half of the screen. An old VS developer was like, "What is this device?"
10:23	LauJensen	hehe
10:23	shoover__	LauJensen: ok, send the commands over to Chouser
10:24	chouser	not today. today I'm all about maven and eclipse
10:24	LauJensen	shoover__: When it comes to tools, Chouser and cemerick are those akward uncles that we just accept because of their lovable nature
10:24	shoover__	hee hee
10:25	chouser	"you only think so because you're dumb"
10:25	shoover__	now they're using each other's words against us
10:26	chouser	heh
10:31	LauJensen	Whats the practical differences between RollingFileAppender and FileAppender?
10:31	chouser	I'm not too sure but I think RollingFileAppender extends FileAppender to backup the log files when they reach a certain size.
10:32	drewr	LauJensen: I think it's just rotation
10:32	LauJensen	k
10:32	shoover	LauJensen: you can roll by size or age, but practically it just makes it easier to open in a text editor if it would otherwise by dozens of MB
10:32	chouser	You can set the maximum size that the output file is allowed to reach before being rolled over to backup
10:32	LauJensen	I thought both did that actually but I must be wrong
10:33	chouser	and also how many backup files are kept before the oldest is erased.
10:34	LauJensen	I just want a flat file to tail -f, if I put this https://gist.github.com/a7de1a2b43a229f229df in my resources/ shouldn't that be enough to get started?
10:34	chouser	For example, the value "10KB" will be interpreted as 10240. setQWForFiles protected
10:34	chouser	oops, pasted too much that time, sorry.
10:41	LauJensen	Where in the .war file are you guys putting log4j.properties?
10:49	LauJensen	cemerick: ?
10:51	hugod	LauJensen: mine ends up in WEB-INF/classes/log4j.properties
10:51	LauJensen	hugod: using a maven trick ?
10:52	hugod	I have it in src/main/resources, which is declared as a resource directory in the pom
10:53	LauJensen	ok
10:55	ztellman	is 1.3 supposed to play nicely with jars compiled by 1.2?
11:00	LauJensen	ztellman: I think yes, with anything thats not AOTed. However 1.3 does mess with a few things like the = operator
11:00	ztellman	LauJensen: I have a counter-example (bug?)
11:01	LauJensen	Whats causing the problem?
11:01	ztellman	trying to use aleph-core, which doesn't use AOT but was turned into a jar with 1.2
11:02	ztellman	opening a 1.3.0-alpha1 repl with it causes the exception "NoSuchMethodError clojure.lang.KeywordLookupSite.<init>(ILclojure/lang/Keyword;)V"
11:03	ztellman	creating a jar for aleph-core with 1.3.0-alpha1 makes the problem go away
11:03	LauJensen	Well. Lookups are also different in 1.3, so theres a possible breakage. In 1.2 keywords of longs / ints wouldnt match, they do now. Could be related
11:03	ztellman	an intentional breakage?
11:03	LauJensen	A necessary one
11:03	LauJensen	So yea
11:03	ztellman	ok, fair enough
11:04	LauJensen	,(assoc {(long 1) 2} 1 5)
11:04	clojurebot	{1 5, 1 2}
11:04	LauJensen	That has become fixed now, thanks to .equals being strict about types
11:09	abrenk	ztellman: "turned into a jar with 1.2" if there are only .clj files in the jar the clojure version shouldn't matter
11:09	ztellman	abrenk: that's what I thought
11:09	abrenk	ztellman: NoSuchMethodError can only occur with class files
11:10	abrenk	and there are class files in the aleph-core jar
11:10	ztellman	hmm
11:10	abrenk	are you sure there's no AOT involved?
11:10	ztellman	oh, I changed the :main setting in my project.clj
11:10	abrenk	I guess, you just pushed that to clojars?
11:11	ztellman	I wanted to set the default namespace in the repl
11:11	ztellman	that probably has some AOT consequences, doesn't it
11:12	abrenk	I guess so.
11:12	ztellman	leiningen sample.project.clj confirms
11:12	abrenk	otherwise there wouldn't be a main method
11:12	ztellman	ok, thanks
11:12	ztellman	I thought that was a weird problem to have
11:13	chouser	In ecplise with CCW, I tried importing clojure itself as a maven project. That looks ok, but when I turn on clojure support for that project the src directory disappears from the package explorer pain
11:13	chouser	er, pane, though I guess either is accurate
11:13	LauJensen	ztellman: main is AOT compiled to make jars executable they must have a gen-classed main/-main
11:14	ztellman	LauJensen: I just wanted the repl to start up with the main namespace loaded
11:14	ztellman	I guess I should just have a start script specified
11:14	LauJensen	ztellman: k, dunno how to do that, ask ninjudd :)
11:18	abrenk	chouser: clojure as a maven project? but it doesn't really use maven, does it?
11:18	chouser	it has a pom.xml. I guess I was hoping that was enough
11:18	chouser	I clearly don't really know what I'm doing. :-)
11:18	abrenk	chouser: not really, the source paths etc. are neither the maven standard nor specified in pom.xml
11:19	chouser	oh
11:19	chouser	How would I go about opening clojure properly then, in eclipse?
11:19	abrenk	so the pom.xml really is just to put into the repository
11:19	abrenk	you cannot build clojure using maven
11:19	abrenk	just import a simple java project i guess
11:20	chouser	I don't want to build it, just open it. But eclipse is a mystery to me
11:21	abrenk	chouser: create a new java project and then select from existing source
11:23	abrenk	chouser: maybe new java project from existing ant buildfile works
11:24	chouser	abrenk: thanks, I'll try those
11:26	abrenk	chouser: don't try "from existing ant buildfile" - just tried it, looks weird
11:26	chouser	ok
11:33	AWizzArd	I've just studied gvec.clj and came to the conclusion, that I can't find out what the primitive type of (vector-of :short) is. That is, it does not expose this information through a function call, such as (.getPrimitiveType (vector-of :short)) ==> :short
11:33	AWizzArd	(class (first (conj (vector-of :short) 0))) would be an option though
11:40	LauJensen	For all tomcat users, dont trust this information: http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-5.5-doc/logging.html#log4j - I just wasted a couple of hours not realizing that this will void any servlets own logging configs
11:40	Bahman	Hi all!
11:41	esj	LauJensen: I think RollingFileAppender 'rolls the logs' ie, puts an upper limit on log size
11:44	chouser	AWizzArd: not a bad solution, as long as it doesn't decide to give an error when the wrong type of item is conj'ed.
11:44	chouser	AWizzArd: You might consider using peek instead of first
11:45	AWizzArd	chouser: yes, or nth 0
11:45	AWizzArd	good point
11:46	chouser	right, something that doesn't have to create a seq
11:46	AWizzArd	kotarak benchmarked first vs nth for vectors, and (for me) surprisingly first runs 10x as long as nth.
11:50	chouser	closer to 4 or 5 times slower for me, but yeah.
11:51	hiredman	first creates a seq from the vector first
11:51	chouser	so true
11:53	chouser	creating a java project of my existing clojure source dir still doesn't include the src dir in the Package Explorer pain
11:59	abrenk	how come you're messing around with eclipse?
12:02	chouser	oh, I dunno. Because I want a featureful dev environment I can extend using Clojure
12:02	chouser	which doesn't describe vim or emacs.
12:03	abrenk	creating a new java project a selecting the existing clojure automatically adds src/jvm as a java source folder
12:04	abrenk	s/a sel/and sel/
12:04	sexpbot	<abrenk> creating a new java project and selecting the existing clojure automatically adds src/jvm as a java source folder
12:05	chouser	ok, I've got that now. it at least allows linking around within the java sources.
12:07	abrenk	chouser: then in the project's properties add src/clojure to the java build path as a source folder
12:07	chouser	ah, cool
12:07	chouser	thanks!
12:10	abrenk	chouser: and if there were any jars built by ant around when you created the project you might want to remove them from the libraries tab
12:21	abrenk	LauJensen: http://logging.apache.org/log4j/1.2/faq.html#a3.5
12:22	abrenk	LauJensen: log4j has its complications in a container context with differenct classloaders
12:22	LauJensen	abrenk: So I learned
12:22	LauJensen	But you'd think they would mention it on a "logging 101" page
12:23	abrenk	there are articles about that dating back to 2003...
12:23	LauJensen	abrenk: But you started at the 101 page right? right...
12:23	abrenk	...so I guess they just expect everyone to know that know.
12:24	abrenk	that's why they developed slf4j. to get rid of all the problems of commons-logging and log4j
12:24	technomancy	only in Java-land are there more logging adapters than actual logging implementations...
12:24	abrenk	LauJensen: I learned about those problems the hard way, too. So please don't be offended by my 2003 comment!
12:25	LauJensen	Thats why I love my own blog - I can mess things up, and blog about them, and never forget :)
12:25	LauJensen	abrenk: Im not offended. I just dont benefit from knowing that its written elsewhere, when my problem is with the introduction :) In a bit it'll by on my blog as well
12:25	LauJensen	a bit = the time it takes tomoj to make a screencast
12:45	chouser	so this is definitely better in some ways than what I was doing before.
12:45	chouser	Any chance of jumping from a java method used in a .clj file to it's definition in a .java file?
12:45	chouser	ecplise/ccw still
12:46	LauJensen	sure you just press M-.... oh, in eclipse. dunno
12:49	chouser	LauJensen: emacs can find the correct definition for a polymorphic method call?
12:51	chouser	I mean, if my cursor is on the word seq in ((Seqable) coll).seq(), it can take me to Seqable.java's seq def, not any of the other dozens of .java files that define a seq method?
12:51	abrenk	chouser: in java files it's f3, but in clojure files that does not work
12:52	chouser	abrenk: yeah, I was using it in the .java files -- works quite nicely.
12:53	chouser	clojure being dynamically typed could be essentially undecidable in a lot of cases, but it'd be nice if it worked when it could -- static method calls for example.
12:56	abrenk	chouser: I guess lpetit wouldn't mind you implementing that
12:57	chouser	I might not mind implementing that, if I can do so in Clojure. plenty to learn first though
12:58	dnolen	klang: cool, many people interested in Clojure there?
13:00	klang	dnolen: the rules of clojure-bingo are: you get a point every time Clojure is mentioned in an otherwise unrelated talk .. at almost all the talks I attended points were given ;-)
13:01	dnolen	klang: nice! :D but I meant more like among attendees
13:02	klang	dnolen: I tink the talks specifically about Clojure was well attended (full to the max), so yes, I would say so.
13:03	dnolen	klang: did you see rhickey's talk? how was that?
13:04	klang	dnolen: very good .. shedding a bit of light on the thought behind the STM
13:05	klang	dnolen: .. or more .. the folly of expecting participation of places, when you want to act upon them.
13:11	shoover	klang: as opposed to actors?
13:13	klang	shoover: no. I don't think so.
13:20	ninjudd	alexyk: figured out how to get paren matching in cake repl. just add 'set blink-matching-paren on' to ~/.inputrc
13:20	alexyk	ninjudd: or .editrc? remember I'm on Mac with libedit
13:21	ninjudd	alexyk: i thought you recompiled ruby to use readline
13:21	ninjudd	alexyk: are you using the built in apple ruby?
13:21	alexyk	ninjudd: not yet, in fact using the built-in and editrc is respected
13:22	alexyk	I do have MacPorts so a ruby from there should work too, I'm sure
13:22	ninjudd	alexyk: yeah, i'm using REE from homebrew. not sure how to do paren matching in libedit
13:24	alexyk	ninjudd: I have a more serious question about protobuf performance. This func was loading a 600 MB tokyo cabinet OK of int maps, chokes on 1.6 GB of double maps: http://gist.github.com/613717
13:26	alexyk	it fills the whole 30 GB JVM with compressed oops
13:26	ninjudd	can you gist to .proto file?
13:26	alexyk	the fun part is, I wrote the cabinet easily from same JVM!
13:27	alexyk	added
13:28	alexyk	the top level data is a map string -> daily doubles, which is a map int->double
13:29	alexyk	so I can write with pmap and creating protobufs, but I can't read back -- something's exploding in protobuf creation perhaps
13:29	ninjudd	alexyk: you're saying int -> int is fast, but int -> double is slow?
13:30	alexyk	ninjudd: yep. Also writing is reasonably fast, reading just hangs for the same cabinet
13:30	ninjudd	alexyk: do you still have the problem if you remove [(map) = true]?
13:30	alexyk	ninjudd: what will happen then? I thought I need it for the maps to serialize properly?
13:31	ninjudd	alexyk: just remove it and do a read test to see if that is the problem
13:31	ninjudd	alexyk: you may want to play with the tc bnum too
13:31	alexyk	ninjudd: with the same data?
13:32	alexyk	meaning read back what I created already with [(map...]?
13:32	ninjudd	alexyk: yes
13:32	alexyk	kk
13:33	ninjudd	alexyk: you likely need to increase the bnum though, the default isn't very big
13:34	alexyk	ninjudd: how do we do comments in protos?
13:35	ninjudd	alexyk: //
13:37	alexyk	thx... didn't know about bnum, will have to play
13:38	alexyk	ninjudd: btw, one issue might have been a cake JVM hung in GC -- it didn't go away and cake kill all failed to stop it, as did cake stop, restart, etc.
13:39	bartj	is there a blog which picks insightful conversations from Clojure IRC logs ?
13:40	LauJensen	bartj: No, but its a good idea
13:40	LauJensen	How about at small web interface where you just picked start datetime -> stop datetime and then it blogged? :)
13:41	bartj	LauJensen, since I am learning so much here...I thought it would be nice thing
13:41	alexyk	bartj: grep chouser\|rhickey will do :)
13:42	LauJensen	alexyk: thats definitely a start :)
13:43	alexyk	LauJensen: \|LauJensen too of course :)
13:43	LauJensen	haha, nice try
13:44	chouser	the log page already supports start/end times, though the up/down arrows code goes a bit wonkey
13:44	chouser	should add list of nicks to filter on, per cemerick's suggestion the other day.
13:44	alexyk	detecting what's a conversation is big research, not to mention insightfulness
13:45	LauJensen	alexyk: I think there's at least one guy in here who could do it
13:45	bartj	alexyk, I have been thinking about that for a while too :)
13:45	LauJensen	AWizzArd: What do you think?
13:45	alexyk	I know folks who got grants to detect IRC conversations
13:46	bartj	alexyk, omg
13:46	LauJensen	alexyk: Just to detect a conversation? I could do that in 50 lines of code :)
13:46	LauJensen	or 2000 in Scala if you like
13:46	alexyk	LauJensen: try it when I don't mention you :)
13:47	alexyk	LauJensen: Scala will crawl out of Skagerrak and devour you one night
13:47	alexyk	:)
13:47	LauJensen	alexyk: Skagerrak? It tried, I bitchslapped it with parentheses, or didnt you see that blogpost? :) Oh wait, that was Python
13:47	alexyk	it moonglights as a sea monster and is not amused at being made fun of by clojurers
13:48	LauJensen	"Clojurians"
13:48	AWizzArd	LauJensen: one sec, just came back home from work
13:48	bartj	LauJensen, what is this skagerrak you talk about ?
13:49	LauJensen	bartj: Its a place in the north of jutland, not far from where I grew up. Actually I partly grew up there
13:49	alexyk	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skagerrak
13:49	AWizzArd	LauJensen: ah, I see what you mean. I can't say anything about it, especially not in public. It's more targetted at you :)
13:50	LauJensen	AWizzArd: Fine :)
13:51	bartj	ok
13:52	LauJensen	alexyk: Which are?
13:53	alexyk	that Skagerrak and Kattegat came to mind right away! From like 8th grade :)
13:53	LauJensen	Nice
13:54	LauJensen	You're not in 9th grade now by any chance? :)
13:54	alexyk	LauJensen: in about 36th by now :)
13:55	alexyk	not to mention the Battle of Jutland, of course, where teh British navy was so soundly trounced
13:55	LauJensen	hehe, Denmark has a pretty bad track record when it comes to fighting. I think I think we're probably the first in the world
13:56	LauJensen	And as Chouser reminded me, our country is invaded right now and we're just playing WWII all over again, doing nothing :)
13:56	kryft	alexyk: Hi again, Alexy. What kind of performance can I expect from clojure for numerics? (I got the impression yesterday that you have some experience in this area)
13:57	alexyk	ninjudd: well JVM quickly eats up all its memory :( I don't know if bnum should help, but I'll try
13:57	klang	Vi bringer hilsner til Peter, Hanne, Anders, Birgitte, Liv, Olaf, ..
13:57	alexyk	kryft: I'm pretty nonnumeric yet, but from the infer/incanter I see they use Colt which is fairly strong-ish :)
13:57	LauJensen	kryft: You can expect exactly the same performance as Java in version 1.3. You can pass and return primitives
13:58	bartj	I am looking at the clojure logs
13:58	alexyk	klang: aren't you a Scala guy?
13:58	kryft	LauJensen: Hmm, and how far is Java from (say) C these days?
13:58	LauJensen	kryft: As fast, soon faster according to Cliff Clicks talk last night
13:58	klang	alexyk: no, I'm pretty hooked on Clojure ..
13:59	kryft	LauJensen: Ok, great. :)
13:59	alexyk	klang: OK, I'm mixing some tweets probably :)
14:00	kryft	Even if clojure were as slow as matlab, I'd still want to use it, but if I can get performance fairly close to C, there's no reason not to use it for everything. ♥
14:00	klang	alexyk: I was not fast enough to get 'klang' on twitter :-(
14:00	LauJensen	kryft: thats certainly true
14:00	alexyk	kryft: well OCaml and Haskell still beet it by a factor of about 2 in my huge benchmark to be published this month
14:00	LauJensen	Actually Im planning a blogpost about fast numerics coming up soon
14:01	LauJensen	alexyk: Im guessing your not using primitives then ?
14:01	alexyk	LauJensen: not numerically, datastructures and iterations
14:01	LauJensen	Ok, look forward to seeing and debunking it
14:01	alexyk	LauJensen: absolutely
14:01	kryft	:)
14:02	alexyk	LauJensen: if I raise $$$ for Conj, I hope to show it then if given an opportunity
14:02	KirinDave	technomancy: Hey, quick emacs question. do you know why slime-mode might refuse to fire when hooked into a clj buffer?
14:02	LauJensen	I actually did a blogpost where Clojure eventually outperformed Haskell on something like fibonacci or something similar, man did I get flooded with emails from Haskaloonies flaming me about not using the correct compiler switched etc etc
14:02	alexyk	it is the largest program ever in Haskell in terms of memory usage and overflown its GC
14:02	kryft	alexyk: Even if that were the case, a factor of 2 is not too bad. :)
14:02	alexyk	Clojure is OK memory-wise :)
14:02	LauJensen	wow
14:02	KirinDave	technomancy: I have this thing where slime-mode doesn't understand namespaces and stuff, and it really messes with my completion. Slowly driving me mad.
14:03	tomoj	KirinDave: any metadata at all in the ns?
14:03	KirinDave	tomoj: No
14:03	tomoj	found it it's not just docstrings that break it
14:03	tomoj	shoot
14:03	KirinDave	Even naive (ns namespace) lines don't register. It still says [Clojure user] in the modeline.
14:04	technomancy	KirinDave: I've only ever heard of that happening with weird metadata being added to the ns
14:04	technomancy	but ns detection uses a regex, so it's not the greatest mechanism
14:05	KirinDave	technomancy: I am basically at a loss. I don't understand what I have to do to fix this. I'm using new swank, only elpa, and nothing fancy in my config.
14:05	KirinDave	technomancy: But it means completion in buffers is broken, etc.
14:05	LauJensen	KirinDave: By completion you dont mean dabbrev-expand then?
14:06	technomancy	KirinDave: if you want to debug you can look into the clojure-find-package namespace and see what it returns
14:06	KirinDave	LauJensen: I mean slime-complete-symbol
14:06	technomancy	sorry, the clojure-find-package defun (in elisp)
14:07	KirinDave	technomancy: It seems to understand that it should be the right package.
14:07	LauJensen	KirinDave: ah ok
14:07	technomancy	KirinDave: and slime-find-buffer-package-function is set to that function?
14:08	KirinDave	technomancy: I'll check
14:13	bobo_	LauJensen: the urls in your atom feed seems wrong
14:13	LauJensen	bobo_: Yea I've had some trouble with the feed today
14:14	bobo_	i liked your 404 anyway :-)
14:15	KirinDave	technomancy: http://cl.ly/2hXm
14:15	LauJensen	Thanks -On the upside I get to show it off until I find time to fix this
14:18	technomancy	KirinDave: it should be different inside a clojure-mode buffer
14:18	mvid	is there a way to have leiningen pull the latest stable version?
14:18	technomancy	mvid: yes, using version ranges, but it's usually a bad idea
14:19	KirinDave	technomancy: I M-: and type in that function name while in a clojure buffer and it comes up the same.
14:19	mvid	technomancy why is it a bad idea?
14:20	technomancy	KirinDave: there's your problem; that should be getting set by clojure-mode near the bottom
14:20	technomancy	oops; gotta jet
14:25	KirinDave	Now I've made it even worse
14:35	KirinDave	So i can get clojure-mode to assert itself if I run clojure-mode-enable-slime-for-open-buffers
14:35	KirinDave	But before I run that, it won't do anything
14:45	raek	KirinDave: quick question, do you use auto-complete?
14:45	KirinDave	raek: No.
14:45	KirinDave	I mean, I use complete-symbol
14:45	KirinDave	(or I used to)
14:45	KirinDave	it's sorta working now.
14:46	raek	http://github.com/purcell/ac-slime caused some problems for me (the namespace-file association didn't work)
14:50	cemerick	uncles?
14:50	cemerick	chouser: I think we should show up to the conj wearing those "old guys rule" tshirts
14:50	chouser	heh
14:56	LauJensen	oh hi chas :)
14:56	hv	What is the current solution for the jvm slow startup problem? Is nailgun still the only solution?
14:57	LauJensen	hv: in which setting?
14:57	hv	LauJensen: which setting has a better solution?
14:58	LauJensen	hv: For building applications, for running them, for development?
14:58	hv	(since you asked about the setting I interpreted that there is a setting that has a better solution)
14:58	hv	running, and also probably development
14:59	arkh	if I have a (defrecord R [one two]) and (let [r R. (1 2)] ... ), is it more common to refer to 'r' as (:one r) or (r :one) ?
14:59	LauJensen	Ok, for a desktop program you can use the switch -client, then the jvm starts in about 1 second. Though using a different optimizer
14:59	LauJensen	hv: For development, just use swank
14:59	arkh	er .. should be (let [r (R. 1 2)] ... )
15:00	defn	Anyone here check out George Jahad's CDT?
15:00	hv	LauJensen: I often use swank, but sometimes I need to run programs outside emacs.
15:00	defn	Wow.
15:00	LauJensen	arkh: (:one r) unless you implement invoke for your record. keywords are functions, your record is not a function taking a keyword
15:00	LauJensen	defn: I checked out his screencast
15:01	LauJensen	hv: I dont follow... outside of Emacs?
15:01	arkh	LauJensen: thank you
15:01	defn	LauJensen: pretty impressive stuff.
15:01	LauJensen	defn: extremely much so, yea
15:02	defn	a fancy (dbg ...) macro is nice, but wow -- showing you the java source and everything... pretty amazing.
15:02	LauJensen	yea, and evaluating individual lines of java, just wow
15:02	LauJensen	defn: team up with mrBliss
15:02	hv	LauJensen: what is the swank equivalent of "stuff \| java -cp '...' clojure.main your-script/main \| other stuff"
15:03	LauJensen	hv: dunno
15:03	defn	LauJensen: link?
15:03	LauJensen	defn: link to mrBliss ?
15:03	LauJensen	defn: he's the guy who wrote this: http://github.com/mrBliss/dotfiles/blob/master/.emacs.d/clojure.el
15:03	defn	mrBliss: oh I didn't see you there -- do you have a github repo for what you're working on?
15:03	LauJensen	He's lurking in here atm
15:03	defn	ty LauJensen
15:03	LauJensen	defn: Im like, soo much ahead of you
15:04	LauJensen	:)
15:04	defn	:D
15:04	mrBliss	what Lau posted is all I got
15:04	hv	umm, what is CDT?
15:04	Raynes	Clojure Debugging Toolkit
15:04	Raynes	Or something similar.
15:04	defn	mrBliss: Let's start a google doc and link to gists/dotfile repos that have ideas we could role up into a single clojure.el
15:05	defn	maybe have some options from clojure.el to turn on and off lein functionality, toggle testing frameworks, etc.
15:05	mrBliss	defn: good idea
15:05	LauJensen	defn: ehm, try cake
15:05	defn	LauJensen: I use cake
15:06	defn	that was why i suggested turning on and off lein, toggles and such -- it'd be nice to say "I use lein -- integrate things." or "I use cake -- make it work."
15:06	mrBliss	I'm not that proficient in Elisp, I'm just good at scavenging other people's dotfiles ;-)
15:06	mrBliss	but a standard clojure.el for beginners (and advanced) users is a good idea
15:06	defn	mrBliss: same here -- but it's not too hard to learn. I just hate the regexen.
15:07	mrBliss	true that
15:07	LauJensen	double true
15:07	defn	I think that's a song...
15:07	LauJensen	Raynes: You've been very absent the last days havent you ? Started sleeping at night again ?
15:07	defn	true that. // (double true)
15:09	defn	mrBliss: http://gist.github.com/613890 -- that's a mess I made while adding things to technomancy's starter-kit
15:10	defn	http://gist.github.com/337280 is worth a peek
15:11	mrBliss	I remember having those commented out lines (L43 etc) in my clojure.el for months. I removed them because I heard somewhere that fuzzy matching doesn't come with slime from ELPA
15:11	jashmenn	if im defining a method in extend-type can i / how do access 'super' ?
15:11	hv	btw, is there an easy way to eval clojure code in arbitrary emacs buffers?
15:11	mrBliss	defn: a good start would be figuring out what each line/form exactly does, so we can purge the redundant crap
15:13	defn	mrBliss: to me a nice clojure.el includes the ability to have CDT running, a swank connection for your project, and possibly a continuous integration-style test framework like lazytest
15:13	defn	so you can say M-x start-lazytest, M-x start-cdt
15:13	defn	or something like that
15:14	hiredman	you might want to checkout http://github.com/technomancy/durendal too
15:15	mrBliss	I saw the CDT screencast and honestly, I don't see what's so special about it. (I was a bit distracted while watching)
15:15	mrBliss	hiredman: was thinking of using durendal too
15:15	defn	hiredman: beautiful
15:15	defn	technomancy: double beautiful
15:15	mrBliss	I have durendal-dim-sldb-font-lock in my clojure.el but I see no effect
15:15	alexyk	ninjudd: would bnum help with GC overhead anyhow?
15:16	_rata_	what's CDT?
15:16	LauJensen	_rata_: scroll up 25 lines or so :)
15:16	_rata_	ok
15:17	ninjudd	alexyk: tokyocabinet does not get garbage collected. it is in C
15:18	alexyk	ninjudd: exactly, so what I think is filling up JVM upon read is either its JNI or protobuf :)
15:18	ninjudd	alexyk: you have the same problem without [(map) = true]?
15:18	alexyk	ninjudd: seems so
15:21	Raynes	LauJensen: I've been sleeping at night, yes, but that isn't why I've been inactive. I've just been busy for the past couple of days.
15:23	Raynes	Like today. Doctor's appointment. This particular doctor is never in a hurry, so I'm sure to not be back until around 10pm.
15:24	hv	cemerick: what are the improvements?
15:25	hiredman	((IFn)RT.var("some", "fn")).invoke();
15:28	cemerick	hv: little stuff: there should be an RT.var or Var.find that takes a single string; an IFn wrapper should be available that catches Exceptions and rethrows unchecked ones; there are other small things that I can't remember at the moment
15:29	hv	yeah, I agree
15:30	cemerick	oh, there should be an RT.require
15:30	chouser	how about a Clojure class for Java-facing static methods to live in?
15:30	cemerick	aside from RT, you mean?
15:31	cemerick	so people don't have to wade through everything ;-)
15:31	chouser	hm, would that unecessarily bifercating things? I dunno, just brainstorming.
15:31	cemerick	no, I think that's a great idea
15:31	mrBliss	defn: I'll start rebuilding my clojure.el (adding function by function from my current clojure.el) and I'll try to document each setting.
15:32	chouser	Clojure.require(), Clojure.evalString("(...)")
15:32	defn	mrBliss: Want me to make a github repo?
15:32	chouser	maybe it's actually a seperate lib
15:32	cemerick	nah, I want that everywhere
15:32	mrBliss	defn: as soon as we have something tangible
15:32	cemerick	it's just a cleaner delegate for RT
15:33	cemerick	with javadocs! :-P
15:34	defn	so there is lazytest, clojure.test, and ive seen a couple others -- failing to remember them now...
15:34	duck1123	circumspec
15:34	defn	no one has touched that since April unfortunately
15:35	defn	Conducta is another I guess
15:35	defn	testing frameworks are the new irc bot
15:36	mrBliss	defn: Conducta is even older (Jan 2009)
15:36	defn	http://github.com/marick/Midje
15:37	mrBliss	I've seen a screencast about Midje's emacs mode
15:37	defn	does it do continuous testing?
15:37	TeXnomancy	if you're already in Emacs, continuous testing is easy with an after-save-hook
15:37	TeXnomancy	doesn't need to be supported by the test lib
15:38	mrBliss	defn: don't know, haven't looked into it yet, still on my todo list (TeXnomancy: good to know, thanks)
15:38	defn	TeXnomancy: right, but having a nice easy way to turn it on for multiple testing frameworks would be nice OOTB
15:39	defn	TeXnomancy: what was that plugin that played harmonic tones if your tests passed?
15:39	jjido	is there a (forget) function for the interactive prompt?
15:40	antares_	technomancy: hey
15:40	cemerick	chouser, bv: http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/452
15:41	defn	that's too bad -- I can't seem to find it anywhere now...
15:41	cemerick	er, hv ^^
15:41	defn	someone created an awesome little lein plugin that would play dissonant notes for the number of failed tests
15:42	defn	an audio feedback look
15:42	defn	loop
15:43	MayDaniel_	defn: lein-play ?
15:43	defn	MayDaniel_: no this was more interesting
15:44	defn	if your tests passed it would play (midi i think) a nice consonant chord
15:44	defn	if your tests failed it was become dissonant
15:44	defn	but it changed depending on the number of passes/fails
15:44	defn	it was really smart and interesting
15:44	defn	alas I can't find it on github anymore
15:50	defn	found it! http://github.com/bgruber/lazytest-listen
15:51	mrBliss	defn: gotta go now, but I'll certainly continue working on clojure.el :-)
15:52	defn	mrBliss: pm me just to remind me
15:52	mrBliss	will do
15:53	mrBliss	bye for now
15:53	defn	ciao
16:12	_rata_	is there any way in clojure to develop a GUI that can be compiled (without modifications or with small ones) to be a web page (RIA) and a traditional GUI? is anything like that in any programming language indeed?
16:12	jjido	I used (def x (with-meta ... {:type (var myclass)})) ... @(type x), now I have a new class created by a function. Can I use {:type (var (somefunc 1 2 3))}? What else?
16:13	bobo_	_rata_: i think that was one of the goals with javafx
16:14	hiredman	jjido: no you don't
16:14	_rata_	bobo_, and does it do a good job work?
16:14	_rata_	s/work//
16:14	sexpbot	<_rata_> bobo_, and does it do a good job ?
16:15	_rata_	hahahaaha... thanks sexpbot
16:15	bobo_	_rata_: well... havent seen any real example. and javafxscript is canceld to be replaced with a java api that doesnt exist yet :-)
16:15	jjido	hiredman: ref then?
16:16	hiredman	jjido: what about it?
16:16	bobo_	_rata_: but if you write a very thin gui and abstract away everything. the result will be alot nicer for not that much more work, fi you wirte a separate gui for web and thick
16:16	jjido	I used (def x (with-meta ... {:type (var myclass)})) ... @(type x), now I have a new class created by a function. Can I use {:type (ref (somefunc 1 2 3))}?
16:16	hiredman	no you don't
16:17	jjido	mmh, why?
16:17	hiredman	why what?
16:19	raek	jjido: can you show some example of how this is used?
16:19	jjido	raek: I need to cook up something a little simpler, one minute
16:20	raek	I can see that you are attempting to do some kind of custom type tagging system
16:20	hiredman	the are at least two things wrong with what you said, so your simple case will undoubtably have more things wrong with it, I suggest you spend more time reading docs
16:21	bobo_	http://gist.github.com/613998 is that possible to make it work? ie appending id to the key for the selector?
16:25	dnolen	,(keyword (str "div#" "foo"))
16:25	clojurebot	:div#foo
16:25	dnolen	bobo: ^
16:25	dnolen	,[(keyword (str "div#" "foo"))]
16:25	clojurebot	[:div#foo]
16:26	dnolen	,(let [id "foo"] [(keyword (str "div#" id))])
16:26	clojurebot	[:div#foo]
16:28	dnolen	jjido: yeah you're going to have to explain what you're doing. ah-hoc typing maps via metadata and Java classes don't have much in common.
16:31	bobo_	dnolen: awesome thanks
16:34	jjido	so it starts like that http://gist.github.com/614023
16:38	chouser	jjido: what are you trying to accomplish?
16:38	jjido	chouser: that is some code I use to translate my own language into Clojure code
16:38	jjido	I mean, to represent my own language?
16:41	chouser	it looks like you're trying to devise your own method distpatch mechanism, but I don't understand how you want it to behave.
16:43	jjido	updated the gist. Yes I have my own dispatch. The names ending in "Class" represent classes with class fields and methods.
16:45	chouser	what are you trying to do?
16:47	chouser	what is the :type metadata value supposed to represent?
16:47	raek	one piece of advice: clojure tend to keep as much as possible unconflated with types. for example: hierarchies, dynamic dispatch (multimethods), objects holding data are ordinary maps, rather than one class for each "thing" that data can be about...
16:48	raek	now to the point: it is not necessary to use records for normal data representation
16:49	raek	I think very many (of not most) Clojure programs can be written entierly without records
16:50	raek	if they don't implement any protocols, they aren't much more that maps
16:51	raek	</rant-by-guy-that-got-into-clojure-before-1.2>
16:51	raek	:-)
16:52	chouser	heh
16:52	tomoj	don't they get faster access times?
16:52	tomoj	(not to suggest we should turn all our maps into records for that reason...)
16:53	TeXnomancy	I don't think they get faster access times, just that they save a bit of memory by storing the keyset once
16:53	TeXnomancy	if you've got loads of em
16:57	jjido	I used to implement protocols, but I had to remove them
16:58	jjido	either they did not relate well to what I wanted to define or they were not flexible enough
16:58	fliebel	TeXnomancy: So isn;t that the same thing as structs?
16:58	tomoj	what's the thing where a literal keyword access is optimized somehow? for all maps?
16:59	jjido	the program I posted doesn't work, don't know what I do different
16:59	TeXnomancy	fliebel: it's the same speed improvement, yes. modulo protocols I think they are very similar
16:59	TeXnomancy	that is to say: protocols are what make records interesting
16:59	chouser	lookup by keyword on a record can be as much as 30x faster than lookup on a small array-map
17:00	raek	records are stored in a more compact manner, since the fields are real instance variables of the resulting class
17:00	chouser	BUT don't even begin to think about that until your concepts are proven, such as by having code that works
17:02	dnolen	jjido: that seems overly complicated, and it's still not clear what the 'point' is.
17:03	dnolen	jjido: and by that I just mean, what are you trying to accomplish
17:05	tomoj	dnolen: "Since Aleph conforms to Ring, you could just use Compojure's routing library." that works for routing synchronous requests, but what about async? I mean, the channel won't thread through moustache's app handlers
17:06	jjido	dnolen: I want to use my own type definitions, my own dispatch and be able to manipulate said type by "overriding methods" (which translates into replacing the function associated with a keyword in the type)
17:06	dnolen	tomoj: I think Brenton Ashworth is discussing that very thing on the Aleph ML
17:06	dnolen	tomoj: plus I would talk to ztellman about that anyway ;)
17:06	dnolen	jjido: purely for educational purposes?
17:07	jjido	dnolen: no, that's my first implementation of my language.
17:07	dnolen	jjido: ah you want to implement a language on top of Clojure?
17:08	jjido	dnolen: yes
17:12	dnolen	jjido: you're going to have to familiarize yrself some more with deftype/defrecord and ad-hoc typing first off. and then decide if the approach you're taking is the right one, to me it seems overly convoluted.
17:14	dnolen	jjido: I would first use those technique in an idiomatic way and see how they would actually fit in whatever framework yr trying to build. I've never seen any try to combine ad-hoc typing, defrecord, vars, and maros in the way you've combined them in yr gist.
17:14	dnolen	s/any/anyone
17:16	jjido	dnolen: when I tried using protocols I found that multimethods cause name clashes
17:16	jjido	then I found that there is no (letrecord) or (letprotocol)
17:17	raek	temporary types?
17:17	jjido	raek yes
17:18	raek	I can't recall that I have seen that in any language... (if you don't count private types)
17:18	chouser	why aren't you just using maps of functions?
17:18	jjido	my example was supposed to show a temporary type
17:18	dnolen	jiddo: hmm, what did trying protocols have to do with multimethods?
17:18	jjido	chouser: I am close to that
17:19	amalloy	speaking of protocols, is there a protocol or a multimethod for arithmetic? eg a Numberable protocol for custom types, or a multimethod for + [type1, type2]?
17:19	chouser	amalloy: nope
17:19	jjido	dnolen: when you implement a protocol, you use the multimethod mechanism to select the appropriate function body
17:20	jjido	well it looks that way
17:20	chouser	amalloy: But you can have your own + in any namespace you want
17:20	dnolen	jjido: not true at all
17:20	raek	amalloy: there is this, though: http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/generic.arithmetic-api.html
17:20	dnolen	jjido: protocols and multimethods are conceptually related, but not in usage at all.
17:21	raek	"alternate" arithmetic fns, that are extendable
17:21	jjido	dnolen: ok I jumped to conclusions.
17:23	raek	you can do an awful lot of things with only maps and functions...
17:24	dnolen	jjido: multimethod are a generic dispatch mechanism, you can provide you're own dispatcher.
17:25	jjido	dnolen: I am not sure I understand what you're saying, but it sounds interesting
17:25	lancepantz	lol
17:26	amalloy	thanks raek. i don't have a need to do this in any real code atm, i'm just trying to see how close to a built-in type i could make complex numbers, for rosettacode
17:27	dnolen	jjido: you can provide your own dispatch fn. that means you can dispatch on whatever you want, type, length, whether something conforms to a protocol, wether an argument is divisible by 3, etc.
17:28	arkh	are there times, other than closures, when memory is not 'guaranteed' to be freed by moving out of something's lexical scope?
17:30	cemerick	holding onto the head of a realized lazy seq can certainly lead to more allocation than one expects
17:31	amalloy	arkh: dynamic bindings, right?
17:31	amalloy	,(doc with-bindings)
17:31	clojurebot	"([binding-map & body]); Takes a map of Var/value pairs. Installs for the given Vars the associated values as thread-local bindings. The executes body. Pops the installed bindings after body was evaluated. Returns the value of body."
17:31	arkh	amalloy: yes, with (let) in my case
17:32	arkh	amalloy: oh ...
17:32	amalloy	arkh: but let is lexical, not dynamic. my point is that dynamic bindings extend beyond lexical scope, or are sorta orthogonal to it, depending how you think about it
17:33	arkh	amalloy: ok, that makes sense
17:33	arkh	I'm doing some java interop and because I'm not doing any of the above, I should probably look at my use of Java for the memory leak I'm seeing
17:43	jjido	,(doc def-multi)
17:43	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
17:43	jjido	,(doc defmulti)
17:43	clojurebot	"([name docstring? attr-map? dispatch-fn & options]); Creates a new multimethod with the associated dispatch function. The docstring and attribute-map are optional. Options are key-value pairs and may be one of: :default the default dispatch value, defaults to :default :hierarchy the isa? hierarchy to use for dispatching defaults to the global hierarchy"
17:43	plathrop	The clojurebot makes me happy
17:43	jjido	lol
17:45	jjido	My gist now runs, I fixed it http://gist.github.com/614023 . I may find another way of doing it but for now it seems ok.
17:58	jjido	Can a macro insert a newline character in the code? I have trouble with line numbers for errors
18:01	raek	jjido: macros don't work on text
18:02	jjido	raek: all right, this one does postwalk-replace
18:04	amalloy	clojurebot: botsnack
18:04	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
18:04	amalloy	plathrop-away: ^^
18:06	jjido	clojurebot: botbed
18:06	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
18:06	jjido	mmh, I tried.
19:05	konr	Is there an http client that can handle sessions and cookies, like cURL does?
19:06	AWizzArd	Is there a foo that does (foo keyword? [[1] [2] [3] :x 1 :y 2]) ==> (([1] [2] [3]) (:x 1 :y 2))? I thought about something like 'split-at-first'
19:07	AWizzArd	Splitting a sequence into two as soon an element with specific properties is found?
19:22	tomoj	,(split-with (complement keyword?) [[1] [2] [3] :x 1 :y 2])
19:22	clojurebot	[([1] [2] [3]) (:x 1 :y 2)]
19:26	AWizzArd	yes, that seems good
19:29	AWizzArd	tomoj: good idea
19:29	amalloy	AWizzArd: partition-by also works, depending on what behavior you want
19:30	amalloy	,(partition-by keyword? [[1] [2] [3] :x 1 :y 2])
19:30	clojurebot	(([1] [2] [3]) (:x) (1) (:y) (2))
19:30	amalloy	oh nm, i see that's not the behavior you want :P
19:33	AWizzArd	amalloy: yes, partition-by is what I used first (let [[f & xs] (partition-by …), map (apply hash-map (apply concat xs))] (calculate-something-with f) (be-happy-with map))
22:01	scottj	,(mapcat (fn [[a b]] (vector (inc a) b)) (partition 2 [1 2 3 4]))
22:01	clojurebot	(2 2 4 4)
22:02	scottj	Is there a shorter version of that, where inc would be any one arg fn?
22:05	tomoj	hmm
22:05	tomoj	,(map #(if (even? %2) (inc %1) %1) [1 2 3 4] (range))
22:05	clojurebot	(2 2 4 4)
22:05	tomoj	bit shorter
22:06	scottj	,(map-indexed #(if (odd? %1) %2 (inc %2)) [1 2 3 4])
22:06	tomoj	,(map-indexed #(if (even? %1) (inc %2) %2) [1 2 3 4])
22:06	clojurebot	(2 2 4 4)
22:06	clojurebot	(2 2 4 4)
22:06	tomoj	:)
22:07	scottj	thanks
22:55	duck1123	What do I need to do if I want to import a class named Object?
22:56	duck1123	is there a way to exclude importing classes in java.lang.*
23:02	tomoj	why the hell did someone make a class named Object?
23:02	tomoj	try (ns-unmap ns 'Object)
23:03	tomoj	or you could refer to it fully qualified
23:03	tomoj	(def NotObject foo.bar.Object)
23:03	duck1123	that seemed to do it
23:03	tomoj	wonder if you can do (NotObject.) after that
23:04	tomoj	nope, you can't
23:04	duck1123	doesn't seem like it
23:52	_rata__	how do I change the indentation for a form in emacs? (I'm using swank-clojure)
23:52	_rata__	I'd like the (complex [] ...) macro from fnparse library to be indented like let