#clojure – 2010-10-04

2010-10-04

02:03	LauJensen	Morning all
02:04	amalloy	morning LauJensen
03:00	amalloy	a style question: if i'm using (defrecord) to define a class that i expect to use only from within clojure, should i name it like java (MyClass), clojure (my-class), or some mix (My-Class)?
03:03	carkh	i do it java like (pascal case)
03:25	jlaskowski	Hi
03:25	jlaskowski	how to inspect a function?
03:25	jlaskowski	to see its args
03:25	jlaskowski	input params
03:26	carkh	,(doc partition)
03:26	clojurebot	"([n coll] [n step coll] [n step pad coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of lists of n items each, at offsets step apart. If step is not supplied, defaults to n, i.e. the partitions do not overlap. If a pad collection is supplied, use its elements as necessary to complete last partition upto n items. In case there are not enough padding elements, return a partition with less than n items."
03:26	carkh	that's what you mean ?
03:26	jlaskowski	carkh: not necessarily
03:26	jlaskowski	I've defined one in a script
03:27	jlaskowski	and pass it to some other functions
03:27	jlaskowski	I'd like to know if the one I defined somewhere
03:28	carkh	i'm not sure i understand your question
03:30	carkh	you want to know if the function you'll be using has been defined, this function being passed as a parameter ?
03:43	jlaskowski	I'm back, sorry - had a offline conversation with a co-worker
03:43	jlaskowski	carkh: I'm learning monads
03:43	jlaskowski	using c.c.monads
03:43	jlaskowski	and would like to know what functions I work with
03:43	jlaskowski	and would like to trace their innerworkings
03:44	carkh	ah sorry i know very little about monads, can't help you there
03:44	LauJensen	Is there some restriction on contrib.shell/sh so that it cannot work with sudo ?
03:44	jlaskowski	forget about monads
03:44	jlaskowski	it's simply an example
03:44	jlaskowski	(and I knew you'd step back when heard about them :))
03:44	carkh	=)
03:44	jlaskowski	I defined a function
03:45	jlaskowski	in a script
03:45	jlaskowski	and in another function uses the former
03:45	jlaskowski	s/uses/use
03:46	jlaskowski	how to print out the pass-in function details from within the latter?
03:46	LauJensen	(defn myfn "this fn takes an int and a double" [i d] (+ i d)), (doc myfn) ==> "[i d] this function takes an int and a double"
03:46	jlaskowski	say, I have (fn [x] x)
03:46	raek_	there's not much details stored about functions in the function itself
03:46	raek_	most is stored in the var's metadata
03:46	jlaskowski	can I query for its input params?
03:47	carkh	yep you would need to pass the var instead
03:47	raek_	in 1.2 functions can have metadata too
03:47	carkh	oh didn't know that
03:47	jlaskowski	that's the idea
03:47	raek_	,(meta #'conj)
03:47	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name conj, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 71, :arglists ([coll x] [coll x & xs]), :doc "conj[oin]. Returns a new collection with the xs\n 'added'. (conj nil item) returns (item). The 'addition' may\n happen at different 'places' depending on the concrete type.", :added "1.0"}
03:47	raek_	,(meta conj)
03:47	clojurebot	{:line 77}
03:47	jlaskowski	use meta
03:47	jlaskowski	or doc
03:47	jlaskowski	thanks
03:48	raek_	(the first one checks the metadata on the var, the second on the function)
03:48	raek_	vars can be used as functions (they call the function that they contain)
03:49	raek_	so as carkh said, you could require the caller to pass the var instead
03:49	raek_	or write a macro that adds the var-quote arount the argument
03:49	raek_	I think that is how 'doc' does it
03:50	raek_	(doc ^{:doc "Test"} (fn [x] (* x x)))
03:50	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol
03:51	raek_	mm, yes... that call turns into something like (doc* (var ^{:doc "Test"} (fn [x] (* x x)))
03:51	raek_	where doc* is the underlying function doing the actual stuff
03:54	raek	,(let [x conj] (doc x))
03:54	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
03:54	raek	,(+ 1 29
03:54	clojurebot	EOF while reading
03:54	raek	,(+ 1 2)
03:54	clojurebot	3
03:55	carkh	doc really wants a var
03:55	carkh	picky doc !
03:59	raek	essentially, it calls (println (:doc (meta v)))
03:59	raek	http://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/b578c69d7480f621841ebcafdfa98e33fcb765f6/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L3880
04:03	esj	morning all
04:30	konr	Any idea why this code prints nothing on Emacs/swank but does print on a terminal with `lein repl`? (dotimes [i 10] (.start (Thread. (fn [] (println i)))))
04:30	LauJensen	konr: In Emacs, look in the buffer inferior-lisp
04:44	esj	konr: its just shy.
04:45	konr	:)
05:01	LauJensen	konr: Did you look?
06:36	rrc7cz	how can you apply a seq of arguments to a Java method? Something like (apply (.foo bar) [1 2 3]) when what I want is (.foo bar 1 2 3)?
06:40	cemerick	apply doesn't know anything about interop forms (like ctors and methods)
06:40	cemerick	The best you could do is (apply #(.foo bar % %2 %3) [1 2 3])
06:41	cemerick	I seem to remember a more elegant solution, if one was willing to swallow reflection.
06:41	cemerick	s/solution/solution floating around some while back
06:42	rrc7cz	cemerick: reflection for this case would be fine. I'll take a look. I'm using something like your first suggestion right now, but it doesn't handle variable arity
06:42	LauJensen	(defmacro japply [obj f args] `(. ~obj ~f ~@args)) ?
06:42	rrc7cz	LauJensen: perfect! thanks. The ~@ will splice the seq into form
06:43	cemerick	A macro buys you nothing here; why not just do (.foo bar 1 2 3) in that case?
06:43	LauJensen	cemerick: macro buys you arbitrary number of args
06:43	rrc7cz	cemerick: the [1 2 3] was just an example. In reality it's a variable length seq
06:45	cemerick	rrc7cz: mmm, I should have inferred that. My brain's still not fully online. :-)
06:45	raek	japply only works for a litteral collection as 'args', right?
06:46	cemerick	yup
06:46	rrc7cz	cemerick: :-) at least yours comes online now and then
06:46	rrc7cz	I'll have to play with it so it doesn't require a literal seq
06:46	cemerick	if it's a runtime reference, you'll just get (. bar foo symbol-of-seq)
06:48	cemerick	rrc7cz: Risking being dense again....but it seems you're asking for more than can be known at macro-expansion-time.
06:48	carkh	i think those java functions that take variable number of arguments are using an array as last parameter underneath
06:49	rrc7cz	cemerick: couldn't you first evaluate args before splicing? the literal should eval to itself, while any symbol would eval to the literal
06:49	cemerick	Yeah, I was assuming rrc7cz's method isn't variadic, just that he'd like to spread a seq as args to it.
06:49	LauJensen	carkh: correct
06:49	cemerick	rrc7cz: Sure, if you use eval.
06:49	LauJensen	eval?
06:49	clojurebot	eval is sometimes useful - but only sometimes
06:49	cemerick	indeed
06:50	cemerick	reaching for it usually means you're not thinking about things right
06:50	rrc7cz	cemerick: so am I thinking about things right? :-D
06:50	rrc7cz	I don't see any other way except to first eval args
06:50	rrc7cz	before the splicing is done I mean
06:50	cemerick	rrc7cz: Not if you're hoping to evaluate runtime values of symbols at in a macro expansion.
06:51	carkh	rrc7cz : (String/format fmt (to-array args)
06:51	raek	using the reflection stuff that a method call is compiled to could be an option
06:51	rrc7cz	wow, so my brain's offline too
06:51	cemerick	raek: indeed, far preferable IMO
06:51	cemerick	that, or a macro that will produce a fn from an object, method name, and argument arity
06:52	rrc7cz	okay, so two options: one is great for literals, and reflection will work fine for non literals where performance doesn't matter
06:52	carkh	well you only want to apply if the parameter list is variable in length, so that means the method has variable length arguments, so that means you can use the same pattern as the format function
06:52	LauJensen	If its an option you can hardcode japply to a specific method on a specific object, then call it using a function as a driver
06:53	rrc7cz	carkh: my case is a bit differnt: I have a fn that returns the args to apply to a Java method. It returns a seq, and I'd like to (apply (.method foo) (compute args))
06:54	carkh	can't you just (.method foo (first my-seq) (second my-seq))
06:54	rrc7cz	carkh: so variable arity was one side of it, but I have another case where the arity is static. Right now I just deconstruct the return value into x,y,z and pass those manually, but I was hoping for something less verbose if this comes up a lot
06:54	carkh	destructuring my-se beforehand might be usefull
06:54	rrc7cz	carkh: absolutely, but I was hoping to find another way, especially if I have to be doing this a lot
06:55	carkh	i see
06:55	raek	http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/reflect/Method.html#invoke(java.lang.Object, java.lang.Object...)
06:56	rrc7cz	carkh: it's something like.. I know I need apply, but with Java interop. I guess it doesn't exist, but checking out the reflection idea is worthwhile
06:57	rrc7cz	raek: so invoke takes an array, that will work
06:58	carkh	using reflection your call will be very slow, which might not be a problem... i guess your function would look like this (japply instance method-name param-seq) and might error at run time
06:58	cemerick	rrc7cz: I still think this is mostly yuck, but: https://gist.github.com/0b4b6b437360b3e2f2e0
06:58	raek	the problem might be to get the correct method instance...
06:59	raek	this is probably implemented somewhere in clojure.lang
06:59	carkh	cannot be done at macro-expansion time i think
06:59	rrc7cz	cemerick: that's pretty neat. It's a shame we have to pass the arity
06:59	cemerick	clojure.lang.Reflector is very handy.
06:59	raek	as long as the classes has been loaded, I think the refelction alternative should work
07:00	cemerick	rrc7cz: use Reflector ^^ if you think so :-)
07:00	carkh	well then you need to add the call name to your macro call
07:00	carkh	which is again lots of work, while the goal is to make it easier
07:00	carkh	i mean :
07:00	carkh	well then you need to add the *class name to your macro call
07:01	carkh	the macro only sees the symbol used as a name for your instance
07:01	carkh	so japply needs to be a function
07:02	LauJensen	carkh: or have a function driver
07:02	carkh	bu why would you need a macro then ?
07:02	carkh	but*
07:04	LauJensen	for the splicing
07:05	carkh	hum, the splicing can only occur if the seq is literal
07:05	carkh	(in a macro)à
07:08	LauJensen	ah right. Then perhaps just calling applyTo from lang.RT might do the trick
07:25	carkh	(defn japply [instance method-name args] (clojure.lang.Reflector/invokeInstanceMethod instance method-name (to-array args)))
07:25	carkh	(japply (Integer. 1) "compareTo" [(Integer. 2)])
07:25	carkh	still uggly =P
07:26	carkh	there you could use a macro so that you can use a symbol instead of the string
07:27	cemerick	carkh: um, (str method-name)? :-)
07:27	carkh	you'll get errors if the symbol is not declared
07:27	cemerick	if one can stand the '
07:27	carkh	right
07:28	carkh	remember he wants it for convenience
07:28	carkh	anyways =P
07:28	cemerick	yeah…the whole objective is off the mark shrug
08:40	tobiasraeder	hey :)
08:41	tobiasraeder	is there a way to create an implementation of a java function without retrun value?
08:41	tobiasraeder	for example if i wanted to impletement void setMyField(String)
08:42	chouser	cemerick: your methodfn is remarkably similar to memfn
08:44	chouser	tobiasraeder: do you mean with 'reify' or something?
08:44	tobiasraeder	using deftype but i think i just got it to work
08:45	tobiasraeder	but can't really explain what i did wrong as it seems
08:50	chouser	I was realizing the other night that clojure's locals are just as much variables as algebraic variables.
08:51	chouser	that is they don't vary within the scope of one function or loop (although creating a new local with the same name but a new value looks more like mutation than algebra allows)
08:51	chouser	just like algebra variables don't vary within an equation or proof
08:52	chouser	but at different times they can have different values, which is why they're used instead of plain constants
08:53	chouser	so it's perhaps okay to call clojure locals "variables" and just make the point, at the appropriate time, that they're immutable variables.
08:53	AWizzArd	I just wanted to ask where you see the differences to constants.
08:53	chouser	(fn [a] ( + 5 a))
08:53	chouser	5 is a constant. it will always have the value 5.
08:54	AWizzArd	yes, your previous statement made it clear to me
08:54	chouser	a is an argument variable. each time the function is called, a may have a different value -- in that sense it varies.
08:54	chouser	ah, ok.
08:54	AWizzArd	one thing that I "often" do is (let [x (foo 1), x (bar x), x (+ 5 x)] ...)
08:55	chouser	yes
08:55	AWizzArd	i.e. reducing the complexity for human readers
08:57	cemerick	chouser: Yup. Though I never think of memfn, given #() shrug
08:57	chouser	cemerick: ditto
08:57	cemerick	Actually, can't memfn be deprecated entirely?
08:57	chouser	yes. I wish it were
08:58	chouser	it continues to trick people into thinking it provides a different feature-set than #()
08:58	AWizzArd	hmm
08:58	chouser	though someone recently mentioned that it allows one level of nesting with #()
08:58	AWizzArd	,(doc memfn)
08:58	clojurebot	"([name & args]); Expands into code that creates a fn that expects to be passed an object and any args and calls the named instance method on the object passing the args. Use when you want to treat a Java method as a first-class fn."
08:59	cemerick	Certainly not a reason to let it live.
08:59	cemerick	Especially since damn near no one thinks of it.
09:00	AWizzArd	Btw, do you know how definlines do work? To me it seems: when their name is used somewhere else than the first position in a list, it expands into a fn. If it is used as first element of a list, then it works like a macro.
09:01	chouser	AWizzArd: roughly, yes
09:01	AWizzArd	(definline mydefinline [n] `(+ n 10)) (map mydefinline (range 10)) ... works as if it were a fn. But (+ 3 (mydefinline 20)) can be done without calling mydefinline at runtime.
09:01	labatitude	Hi, I'm trying to partition a list in a funky way. Here's what I've got: http://gist.github.com/609643 but am wondering if there is a more clojurey way of doing it.
09:01	AWizzArd	Is it the compiler or reader who is doing this work?
09:02	chouser	AWizzArd: a definline is expanded into a function definition once, when it is defined. Everywhere that the name is used like a value, that one function is used.
09:02	chouser	AWizzArd: compiler
09:06	chouser	labatitude: (mapcat (fn [[[v] ks]] [v (if (next ks) ks (first ks))]) (partition 2 (partition-by vector? vmix)))
09:06	AWizzArd	chouser: k
09:07	chouser	labatitude: patition-by is an option only because you're promising at least one non-vec after each vec.
09:07	labatitude	chouser: ok, somehow I missed partition-by.
09:08	chouser	there are a lot of functions. It's hard not to miss some.
09:09	chouser	560 public vars in clojure.core
09:10	labatitude	chouser: i've been mostly looking at the clojure.org/data_structures and clojure.org/sequences pages
09:10	labatitude	they are'nt up to date I guess
09:10	chouser	978 in the Common Lisp hyperspec list of all symbols
09:11	chouser	labatitude: hm, that would probably be my fault. :-/
09:11	labatitude	oh dear
09:11	chouser	indeed. I should update that for 1.2
09:11	AWizzArd	cemerick: some of those could be hidden you mean? It would be great if core would have a def-, and both def and def- should get the patch of bsteuber that allows to attach doc-strings to def's.
09:12	chouser	AWizzArd: clojure.core has plenty of hidden vars already
09:12	chouser	77 private vars
09:12	cemerick	AWizzArd: No, that's just a very large footprint for a single namespace.
09:12	cemerick	The convenience of it is undeniable, but...
09:12	cemerick	It definitely impacts discoverability.
09:13	chouser	cemerick: I agree. I noticed when I pulled up the hyperspec the other day and for the first time ever thought: well, that's not that many functions...
09:13	cemerick	yeah
09:13	AWizzArd	(:
09:13	cemerick	I think it'd make sense to segment core up in a reasonable way, and immigrate vars into core.
09:14	cemerick	Though various redefinitions may make that painful/impossible.
09:14	cemerick	Maybe especially given static
09:14	labatitude	anyhow, thanks chouser. I'm still trying to grok the destructuring in the anon function, but I will get there :)
09:14	chouser	labatitude: yeah, that's dense, as most usful destructuring is.
09:15	chouser	(second (partition 2 (partition-by vector? vmix))) ;=> ((["b"]) (:b1 "b2" :b3))
09:16	chouser	so that's what the one argument for one call to the anon fn looks like
09:16	labatitude	right. I totally see how useful that is. in other languages you spend about 10 lines digging out your arguments.
09:16	chouser	[[v] ks] so that v = ["b"] and ks = (:b1 ...)
09:17	chouser	labatitude: yeah, I don't think it's be any more clear without destructuring
09:18	labatitude	so in [[v] ks], the brackets around the v are basically doing (first ...)?
09:18	chouser	labatitude: exactly
09:18	chouser	(fn [x] [(ffirst x) (if (next (second x)) (second x) (first (second x)))])
09:19	chouser	^^^ not clearer
09:19	labatitude	agreed!
09:21	labatitude	i just need to go play with that at the repl so that it sinks into my brain. destructuring-bind was something I just avoided in Common Lisp.
09:21	AWizzArd	fogus_: would you sometimes like to destructure from the end?
09:21	AWizzArd	(let [[* x y z] my-vector] (println "last three elements:" x y z))
09:21	fogus_	AWizzard: Yes. The need came up for me recently
09:22	chouser	and just in case destructuring isn't quite powerful enough yet, perhaps we can look forward to http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/211
09:22	fogus_	chouser: I can't wait!
09:23	AWizzArd	yes, that sounds good
09:25	chouser	oh no. every single link to a function doc on clojure.org is pointing to the old github url, not the new one. :-(
09:28	fogus_	It would be great if destructuring leveraged unification also. :-)
09:29	chouser	Apparently I need to read a book to understand what unification means.
09:30	fogus_	That makes two of us. :p
09:30	cemerick	fogus_: "Why does the destructuring in this snippet of Clojure take 40 minutes to unify on my Core i7?" ;-)
09:31	fogus_	cemerick: Weren't we all?
09:32	cemerick	sadly, I blew professional time on it. I wish I had served my time in college, as most sane people seem to have.
09:32	fogus_	The funny thing about Prolog is that the cut operator has a tendancy to actually cut you. It's the strangest thing
09:36	fogus_	cemerick: Sounds like you do too
09:36	cemerick	It seems that a plurality of clojure coders have Programming PTSD of some form or another.
09:37	chouser	that may be true of professional coders in general.
09:37	chouser	clojure coders are perhaps more likely to have recognized it as such
09:37	cemerick	fogus_: I got into rehab very quickly compared to some, thankfully.
09:38	chouser	hard to see trauma sometimes when you're still in it.
09:39	cemerick	Hrm. Being able to talk about one's tools as if they were significant others is a helluva pathology.
09:39	chouser	hehe
09:40	fogus_	BTW, have you gentlemen started/completed your Conj slides?
09:40	cemerick	s/significant others/(war\|addiction\|etc)
09:40	chouser	fogus_: neither. :-]
09:40	fogus_	whew... so it's not just me then
09:40	chouser	mine for strange loop are getting close to done
09:40	cemerick	fogus_: My talk at Clojure NYC last month was a preview.
09:40	chouser	fogus_: sounds like your last talk was well-received
09:41	cemerick	I need to work on my demo flow, but a tweak or two to the slides are all that are required.
09:41	fogus_	I was freaking out about the CUFP slides and couldn't find the evenrgy...
09:42	fogus_	chouser: I hope so. I walked to the front of the room all full of confidence, looked in the front row and saw Simon Peyton-Jones staring at me. I don't think I've ever had a confidence crash quite like it
09:42	chouser	I find my feelings, correct or not, is that StL is enemy territory and I need to "sell" Clojure (which I don't much enjoy). The conj will just be talking to old friends. :-)
09:43	chouser	fogus_: heh. I can imagine.
09:43	cemerick	chouser: What, all haskell and F# there?
09:43	fogus_	chouser: Although it would be worse if Guy Steele were sitting there. :p
09:44	cemerick	fogus_: very approachable fellow.
09:44	chouser	cemerick: strange loop? I think it's mostly more mainstream than that. Java, C#, maybe ruby.
09:44	cemerick	Oh, I thought you meant St. Louis :-x
09:44	chouser	cemerick: yep, strange loop is in st louis
09:44	fogus_	cemerick: I have heard that about Steele (and Peyton-Jones also)... the psychosis is purely within me
09:51	chouser	labatitude: http://clojure.org/sequences now has all the new 1.2 fns
09:51	chouser	mixed in with the old ones. If you just want a list of the new ones, see http://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/1.2.x/changes.txt
09:52	chouser	cemerick: I wonder if hard-partitioning of core would be able to make much sense
09:52	labatitude	chouser: cool! this will actually help a lot.
09:52	chouser	so many functions fall into more than one "category", or none at all
09:53	cemerick	chouser: Well those actually are "core". Insofar as fns can be dropped into one of the documentation categories on clojure.org, they're namespaceable.
09:54	chouser	many fns in the doc categories on clojure.org appear in more than one category
09:54	chouser	set-validator
09:54	chouser	deref
10:04	jjido	,(trampoline (letfn [(continue [n s brk] #(forloop (inc n) s brk)) (forloop [n s break] (if (< n 100) (if (zero? (rem n 4)) (continue n s break) (if (= n 13) #(break (str s n)) (continue n (str s n ", ") break))) #(break s)))] (forloop 1 "" identity)))
10:04	clojurebot	"1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 13"
10:05	chouser	wow
10:05	jjido	experimenting with break and continue... this stuff is simple after all :)
10:09	chouser	it somehow never occured to me to use trampoline to explicitly manipulate returns the was call/cc does.
10:10	chouser	you know something is brilliant when, having seen it, it suddenly seems obvious even though you'd never thought of it before.
10:11	esj	chouser: exactly - I had that flash reading about monads this morning. Ooooh, why did this take me so long to wrap my head around :)
10:11	jjido	I will be doing plenty of that. after this all I'll need is syntactic transformation from my pet language to clojure
10:12	chouser	esj: ah, congrats. I have yet to reach that point with monads.
10:12	esj	well, i'm not claiming mastery, merely understanding what the fuss is about.
10:14	leafw	jjido: this paste of yours ... like a contest of obfuscated code
10:16	jjido	leafw: lol. for me it is clear enough because I am used to writing continuation-passing style, which is different from clojure's functional style.
10:22	jjido	did you read Philip Wadler paper about monads? Not that I find monads that interesting personally.
10:24	tobiasraeder	is there a way to define a second constructor for deftyped classes? (one that takes 0 arguments preferably)
10:24	chouser	tobiasraeder: no. just create a regular function.
10:25	tobiasraeder	@chouse it's beeing called by java code which expects a no parameter constructor
10:25	esj	jjido: no I'm not haskell literate which obviously limits how far I could take that subject. So I worked through Jim Duey and Konrad Hinsen's tutorials.
10:27	chouser	tobiasraeder: ah, for that kind of interop case you may have to use gen-class
10:28	tobiasraeder	@chouser is gen-class able to have mutable fields, like deftype [^{:volatile-mutable true} myparam] ?
10:28	chouser	tobiasraeder: no, you get a single immutable (final) instance membet, but you can put an atom or ref in there so that it can be mutated.
10:29	chouser	member
10:29	chouser	which is more likely correct anyway, than a volatile-mutable
10:29	jjido	you will have trouble with mutable defrecord and java interop
10:30	tobiasraeder	tbh it worked pretty nice so far
10:30	chouser	tobiasraeder: what kind of high-performance thing do you have going where you are using :volatile-mutable anyway?
10:30	jjido	I think (what does atom translate into?)
10:30	tobiasraeder	@chouser i just need to implement an interface in clojure (which is generated in clojure aswell) and said implementation needs mutable fields
10:30	tobiasraeder	@chouser so the volatile-mutable deftype way is completely wrong for that purpose in your eyes?
10:31	cemerick	For my money, gen-class'ing a class providing static factory fns returning records is the best path at the moment if one has Java callers.
10:31	chouser	tobiasraeder: if it's not high-performance, don't touch volatile-mutable. Use one of clojure's controlled mutable reference types: atom, ref, agent, var, etc.
10:31	chouser	even if it is high-performance you should use one of those first
10:32	tobiasraeder	well i got n numbers of parameters which all need to be mutable and are generated inside a macro
10:32	chouser	tobiasraeder: not a problem. put them all in a vector or map and store then in a ref
10:33	chouser	or possibly a vector or map of refs, depending on your exact situation.
10:33	tobiasraeder	@chouser alright, guess ill try that out later today. ill look into gen-class then i guess
10:41	chouser	tobiasraeder: yeah, I think that's the only way to get a no-arg constructor, which is unfortunate because gen-class is rather hairy to use
10:42	tobiasraeder	@chouser well im using gen-interface alright, i guess its pretty much "the same"?
10:43	chouser	well, that does mean you're doing AOT already, which is at least half the battle
10:45	tobiasraeder	yeah
10:45	tobiasraeder	its kinda scary interop really lol
10:45	tobiasraeder	the javaside is alot of reflection driven analysis of the supplied class/interface
10:48	LauJensen	tobiasraeder: When you get tired of Java you should try doing some Clojure :)
10:50	tobiasraeder	@LauJensen lol i am tired but need to finish that interop stuff first i guess :/
11:04	chouser	replaca_: will there be an api page for clojure.string?
11:05	astoddard	I have started working with defrecord. It appears the generated constructor uses strictly positional arguments; this is for efficiency?
11:06	astoddard	I have seen others write "factory" functions for constructing records with named parameters. Is this recommended?
11:06	chouser	astoddard: sure, for any kind of customized construction
11:07	chouser	named parameters, defaults for unset fields, pre-computed fields, etc.
11:07	chouser	also helps ease use in other namespaces.
11:08	astoddard	Thank you, makes sense. I'll have to think a bit to grok that last one.
11:09	astoddard	All those functions will ultimately call the positional constructor to actually get a record?
11:09	chouser	yep
11:11	astoddard	Got it. One last question. Positional only because it goes as close as possible to the bare JVM and the JVM only does positional arguments?
11:12	konr	Is there a better way to do this? http://4f6e998fe0ca9c6f.paste.se/ Basically I'm logging function call results and running before-running and after-running functions
11:13	jjido	astodard: it is short too. I don't like it when there are many args though.
11:13	chouser	astoddard: probably. there's been talk of a named-arg constructor function as well, and I wouldn't be suprised if one shows up eventually. There's been some differences of opinion on specific semantics and naming.
11:15	chouser	konr: I don't think you need any of those atoms
11:16	astoddard	Fair enough, thanks. I'm imagine there are some macros out there wrapping fancier constructor semantics around defrecord. Does anyone have a favorite one?
11:16	chouser	konr: just initialize your job map with the actual values you need
11:17	chouser	astoddard: this one has been out there. I haven't found any single macro to be useful in general in my own work yet. http://cemerick.com/2010/08/02/defrecord-slot-defaults/
11:18	konr	chouser: hmm, inside the Thread object?
11:18	astoddard	chouser: Thanks.
11:18	chouser	konr: ah, I was misreading, sorry.
11:19	chouser	you're collecting return values.
11:20	chouser	konr: do you actually look at those return values later?
11:20	konr	chouser: sure! They'll contain web crawling data
11:20	drewr	http://ubuntuone.com/p/IZI/
11:21	chouser	drewr: hm. yeah. maybe (conj others me)
11:22	fogus_	astoddard: I have a modified version of cemerick's defrecord+ that also allows kwargs and invariants (with some extra support needed http://github.com/fogus/trammel/blob/master/src/fogus/me/trammel.clj#L239 )
11:23	scottj	fogus_: have you tried do get your defrecord+ in c.c?
11:23	chouser	konr: hm, ok. will you be looking at intermediate values of a job before it's complete?
11:23	jjido	esj: this is how I got the "obfuscated" code: http://gist.github.com/609842
11:23	fogus_	scottj: no. I'm not sure if its wider appeal
11:23	fogus_	s/if/of/
11:23	sexpbot	<fogus_> scottj: no. I'm not sure of its wider appeal
11:24	scottj	every time I look in this channel someone is asking about it
11:24	scottj	(little exaggeration)
11:24	chouser	jjido: I think using clojure as a target lang for various syntaxy languages has a lot of promise
11:24	fogus_	scottj: Oh? I think that such a macro, while useful, is controversial.
11:24	konr	chouser: not at all... it would be nice to have some sort of progress counter, but I'm not worrying about that for a first version
11:26	esj	jjido: interesting. Although I don't think I busted out the obfuscated code comment :) I'm still at a point that most good code looks obfuscated to me, so I'm a little cautious.
11:26	scottj	fogus_: apply macro is controversial and in c.c.
11:26	chouser	konr: then I'd still recommend building and returning an immutable map, instead of a map full of atoms
11:27	chouser	konr: like (assoc {} :time (get-time) :pre (when pre (pre)) ...)
11:27	scottj	or maybe not, looks deprecated now
11:27	cemerick	scottj: I wrote defrecord+, and even I dislike it. :-P
11:27	drewr	chouser: that's exactly where pjstadig's and my conversation went
11:28	scottj	cemerick: why?
11:28	freakazoid	speaking of maps full of atoms, how would one do an MVCC database where insertions don't always conflict with other insertions?
11:28	chouser	drewr: heh, sorry, what are you referring to?
11:28	cemerick	scottj: It defines multiple with a single def* form. That's almost always bad IMO.
11:28	konr	chouser: thanks! btw, nice book you are writing!
11:29	chouser	konr: thanks! mostly done now, thank goodness.
11:29	freakazoid	right now I'm using a vector that I don't delete from
11:29	freakazoid	full of refs
11:29	drewr	chouser: the t-shirt snafu
11:29	cemerick	scottj: It defines many things with a single def* form.
11:29	jjido	esj: no problem. To add to what chouser said, I am happy my code converts so straightforwardly in Clojure
11:29	chouser	konr: also, you might look at 'future' instead of start-Thread-fn...
11:29	freakazoid	and a separate map from key to index in the vector
11:29	chouser	drewr: ah
11:30	chouser	drewr: probably too late, eh?
11:30	cemerick	Given a type Foo, what's the factory fn called? new-Foo? new-foo? make-Foo? Bleh.
11:30	freakazoid	why not Foo?
11:30	cemerick	Foo is the class itself
11:31	scottj	cemerick: if there were one defrecord+ in c.c then that would be clearly defined and consistent
11:31	freakazoid	Couldn't a class implement the IFn interface?
11:31	chouser	Class is final
11:31	freakazoid	Maps and vectors do
11:31	cemerick	freakazoid: no, Class is final
11:31	freakazoid	hmm
11:31	freakazoid	I suppose learning Clojure would be easier for me if I knew Java
11:32	chouser	freakazoid: I know Java better now than I ever did before learning Clojure.
11:32	cemerick	scottj: A just-so standard is stupid and unhelpful to newcomers. Esp. when simpler options are available.
11:32	freakazoid	I'm learning bits of it in the rpocess.
11:32	chouser	I still get completely tripped up with Java syntax though
11:33	chouser	cemerick: I'm sure we've been on this merry-go-round before, but how would a 'make' macro (with a better name) sit with you? (make Foo :a 1, :b 2)
11:34	chouser	macro, though -- requiring a literal class name there.
11:35	AWizzArd	How can one do Enums in Clojure? As in: public class Bar { public enum Foos {SMALL, MEDIUM, LARGE} ... }
11:35	jjido	chouser: I use something like that called new*
11:35	chouser	AWizzArd: define or use?
11:36	jjido	with my own class structure though, I don't have java interop as a goal
11:36	AWizzArd	chouser: define
11:36	cemerick	chouser: IIRC, that was fine by me.
11:36	AWizzArd	Use would probably be something such as Bar$Foos/LARGE
11:36	cemerick	There's a lot of intersecting concerns re: the factory fn thing.
11:36	freakazoid	AWizzArd: the normal lisp thing to do is to use symbols for that
11:36	AWizzArd	freakazoid: yes, I know. Keywords even.
11:36	freakazoid	or keywords, whatever they're called
11:37	chouser	cemerick: because that could of course generate a call to either (-maker-for-Foo :a 1 :b 2) or even just (Foo. 1 2 :default-for-c)
11:37	freakazoid	they're atoms in erlang, but clojure uses atom to mean something else
11:37	cemerick	chouser: That doesn't help apply cases, and doesn't help with require-before-import problem though.
11:37	AWizzArd	Though the Enums may have hotspot advantages, and they are easier to use from Java.
11:37	cemerick	chouser: dear lord, the latter please :-\|
11:37	freakazoid	AWizzArd: he said he didn't have interop as a goal ;-)
11:38	cemerick	chouser: you understand, CLOS poisoned me w.r.t. defining multiple "things" with a single def* form.
11:38	freakazoid	In general it's best to only depart from doing things idiomatically if you really need ultimate performance
11:39	chouser	AWizzArd: that's a good question -- are you sure you need enums and not just keywords
11:39	chouser	I'm not sure if there's a way to generate enums from clojure short of ASM
11:40	jjido	AWizzArd: enums in java use some kind of inheritance maybe you could go back to that
11:40	freakazoid	AWizzArd: whoops for some reason I got it into my head jjido asked the original question
11:40	freakazoid	the java interop thing was a red herring with respect to enums
11:40	AWizzArd	I can imagine that I would like to offer easy to use classes for a Java API. Those guys are more used to Enums and have (java) language support for those.
11:41	chouser	AWizzArd: so this is about interop
11:41	AWizzArd	I would start off writing my code using keywords, if it were I who should use the code. So yes, mostly interop.
11:41	AWizzArd	The enums have some advantages, such as compile time checking, easy use from Java, etc.
11:42	AWizzArd	(defenum MyEnum [X Y Z]) ... MyEnum/Y don't know if such a thing would be possible, and get the same advantages.
11:42	jjido	and integer values?
11:42	AWizzArd	My example from above used an inner Enum as I see it.
11:43	freakazoid	AWizzArd: did you look at http://markmail.org/message/zatkdrrunyp4mhpv already?
11:43	freakazoid	google has lots of hits for "java enum clojure"
11:44	chouser	ah, when genclass was new
11:44	chouser	might be able to use deftype now?
11:45	AWizzArd	hmm
11:45	freakazoid	anyone using clojure on .net on azure yet?
11:47	freakazoid	Hmm, for all I know the JVM works on azure
11:47	freakazoid	oh look at that
11:47	freakazoid	google says yes
11:47	cemerick	freakazoid: it apparently does -- I was being pitched on running tomcat-hosted apps in azure by a MS rep a few months ago
11:48	freakazoid	I need to get Membase onto Azure.
11:48	freakazoid	And looks like making it dependent on the JVM for running server-side user code would not be an impediment to that
11:51	arohner	what affects when tab completion works in slime?
11:52	arohner	it works 100% of the time for me in repl mode, but seems to work 50% of the time in clojure source files
11:52	defn	arohner: among other things I believe you need to have TAB bound to some swank command
11:52	defn	but that should be done for you?
11:53	arohner	defn: interestingly, it's not, in my clojure file. But I'm certain it has worked before in clojure files...
11:53	defn	arohner: just for kicks try to do Shift + TAB
11:53	defn	and let me know if that fixes it...
11:53	arohner	defn: shift + tab is bound to yank for me
11:54	arohner	should it be slime-indent-and-complete-symbol?
11:54	defn	arohner: yeah that sounds familiar
11:54	defn	arohner: also try meta-tab
11:55	arohner	defn: that's what my repl TAB is bound to
11:55	arohner	meta-tab is alt-tab, that OSX eats
11:55	defn	not for me?
11:55	defn	maybe you're thinking of Cmd + TAB
11:56	arohner	defn: I have meta and option switched
11:56	defn	sorry im not of much help here, i just seem to remember in SLIME TAB has always worked
11:56	defn	but in clojure-mode, in the file itself
11:56	defn	i needed to use some modification of that
11:56	arohner	defn: just getting me to check what tab was bound to helped a lot. I'm surprised though that it's transient
11:57	defn	nod -- weird behavior
11:57	defn	latest version of clojure-mode?
11:57	arohner	defn: my clojure file is not bound to slime-indent, but I'm 100% sure it's worked recently
11:58	chouser	AWizzArd: java.util.Calendar seems to use static fields instead of enums
12:00	rplevy	is there any way to control or configure memoization in newer versions of Clojure? For example, if it is using too much memory.
12:02	arohner	rplevy: not in the built in memoize
12:02	arohner	rplevy: http://kotka.de/blog/2010/03/memoize_done_right.html
12:04	defn	arohner: technomancy might be a good guy to ask
12:04	defn	he's intimately familiar with all of those details
12:04	defn	me...not so much
12:04	defn	my setup works, beyond that I'm sort of a clueless :\
12:05	rplevy	arohner: thanks, this looks useful
12:06	chouser	AWizzArd: looks like we used to have clojure.contrib.enum for this, but not anymore?
12:15	AWizzArd	chouser: I did not even know about contribs enums :)
12:55	cemerick	chouser: why the dashes in your colored repl?
12:57	chouser	cemerick: I really wanted the prompt to be in a different color, to make it stand out
12:58	chouser	but that messes with rlwrap's concept of horizontal cursor position.
12:58	chouser	so the dashes are just to help the prompt stand out from the rest of the output
12:58	cemerick	ah
12:58	cemerick	I don't think I'll include those :-)
12:58	cemerick	Though I never see red, only green and blue.
12:59	cemerick	I wonder if I'm just terminally hopeless with the console, etc.
13:01	chouser	exceptions aren't red?
13:02	freakazoid	terminally hopeless… I like that
13:02	freakazoid	(with the console)
13:02	chouser	heh
13:02	cemerick	freakazoid: I was wondering if anyone would catch that.
13:02	chouser	I completely missed it
13:02	freakazoid	bash has a way to use escape characters in the prompt without screwing up position
13:03	freakazoid	\[\e]2;\h:\W\a\]\!,$? \u@\h:\w$
13:03	chouser	yeah, but this isn't bash
13:03	freakazoid	Just hack it to do something analogous
13:03	chouser	maybe rlwrap has some options -- I didn't look into it too deeply
13:05	freakazoid	or just add a separate option to explicitly specify a character position
13:05	freakazoid	bash just doesn't count characters between \[ and \]
13:06	cemerick	chouser: bleh, I was printing exceptions in nrepl to out :-P
13:06	chouser	ah. I'm not actually sure if err is correct
13:06	chouser	I think I was just mimicking the built-in repl
13:07	chouser	s/correct/best/
13:07	cemerick	no, I mean nREPL was printing exceptions to out, server side, so that content wasn't coming over in messages with an :err slot, etc.
13:07	cemerick	nm, it was my bad :-)
13:09	chouser	oh, I see. ok
13:09	cemerick	chouser: you said that colored output was usually optional...is there a standard option enabling it?
13:10	cemerick	20s of googling turned up nothing obvious.
13:10	chouser	--color on the command line is probably most common, is that what you're asking?
13:11	cemerick	yup, that'll work
13:29	cemerick	chouser: FWIW: http://github.com/cemerick/nREPL/blob/master/src/main/clojure/cemerick/nrepl/cmdline.clj
13:29	cemerick	I poked around at trying to get :err println boldly, but had no luck
13:31	abedra	fogus_: How did your talk go on Saturday?
13:33	fogus_	abedra: Better than I expected. It was fun.
13:34	fogus_	abedra: And your tutorial?
13:35	abedra	fogus_ went well. Glad yours did too. Really enjoyed the audience
13:35	abedra	fogus_: I'll catch you finally in raleigh in a few weeks!
13:37	fogus_	abedra: People seemed genuinely interested in Clojure, and had very insightful questions. I guess that's to be expected given the auidence mix
13:42	lazy1	cemerick: (println "\033[31mfoo\033[m") printed in red for me
13:42	lazy1	cemerick: Ubuntu via rlwrap
13:44	cemerick	lazy1: Yeah, the problem was unrelated to what was being printed :-)
13:45	cemerick	(see prior commit)
13:57	chouser	cemerick: ah, cool.
14:18	defn	If you don't have this: You want it.
14:18	defn	http://sr3d.github.com/GithubFinder/
14:20	cemerick	defn: damn
14:20	mrBliss	defn: it doesn't have syntax highlighting for clojure though ;-)
14:48	aav	if i have a protocol - what is the portable way to find the name of java interface behind it?
14:49	aav	is this a good option: (.getName (:on-interface protocol))
14:50	chouser	portable?
14:51	Dawgmatix	how do i specify clojure contrib 1.3 alpha as a dependency in leiningen ?
14:52	aav	chouser: means it will not be affected, in case some internals of protocol implementation will change
14:52	chouser	aav: I don't think :on or :on-interface is documented or guaranteed to not change)
14:53	chouser	but it looks like as good an option as any right now. :-)
14:53	aav	chouser: than you. that was my question. :)
14:53	kotarak	Dawgmatix: [org.clojure "1.3.0-alpha1"] should come close
14:54	Dawgmatix	thanks
14:54	kotarak	[org.clojure/clojure ...] that is
15:02	AWizzArd	~seen rhickey
15:02	clojurebot	rhickey was last seen quiting IRC, 5293 minutes ago
15:02	AWizzArd	Rich is having vacation :-)
15:02	LauJensen	AWizzArd: He's in Denmark
15:02	AWizzArd	LauJensen: oho?!
15:02	jfkw	Trying to get started with swing windows. Platform is Gentoo Linux ~amd64, sun-jdk-1.6.0.21, window manager: awesome (tiling, it might be pertinent). First question: (. javax.swing.JOptionPane (showMessageDialog nil "Hello World")) works, but when the window is closed, lein repl doesn't return to prompt until new input processed. Is this normal, and is the swing window loop still running awaiting some terminate method?
15:03	AWizzArd	very nice, touring through Europe
15:03	LauJensen	AWizzArd: JAOO
15:15	hugod	LauJensen: you solve your tomcat woes?
15:15	carkh	jfkw: i had the same problem in emacs/windows it soemhow disapeared
15:16	LauJensen	hugod: The Tomcat is now purring like a kitten, yea everything is great
15:17	carkh	jfkw: i think it's a matter of using swing as it should be, and call swing methods with invokeLater
15:17	carkh	jfkw: as swank is in its own thread
15:31	jfkw	carkh: #awesome is pointing me to sun-jdk-1.6 problems with non-reparenting window managers. I'm trying their workarounds.
15:32	jfkw	carkh: Workaround using utility wmname, trick jdk into thinking I'm using LG3D, fixes it completely.
15:33	chouser	jfkw: link? I bet I've seen problems from a similar cause.
15:35	carkh	ahwell i guess my problem was a different one
15:36	LauJensen	jfkw: I had the same, and yes LG3D and restarting the JVM solves it
15:40	jfkw	chouser: See http://awesome.naquadah.org/wiki/Problems_with_Java#Impersonate_Another_Window_Manager , Arch's bug would seem to be a good start to port the fix to other distros: https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/15674 My own Gentoo doesn't have a sun-jdk-1.6 fix yet.
15:55	AWizzArd	kotarak: grats to VimClojure 2.2.0!
15:56	chouser	jfkw: thanks
16:04	freakazoid	Anyone have a suggestion for an embeddable lisp interpreter for a C++ program? There are so many to choose from.
16:05	freakazoid	Ease of embedding and apache2 compatible license are what i'm looking for
16:05	freakazoid	doesn't have to be common lisp or any standard
16:05	chouser	umm... maybe clojure?
16:05	chouser	embedding a jvm can't be that hard, right?
16:06	freakazoid	haha
16:06	freakazoid	this is a pretty small C++ program :)
16:06	freakazoid	Embedding a JVM into it would be kind of comical.
16:06	freakazoid	I just don't want to implement a confguration & command language.
16:07	technomancy	guile is designed for that kind of thing
16:07	chouser	I've had fair success using C and C++ libs from clojure, but haven't tried the other way 'round.
16:09	freakazoid	guile was one of the many I was looking at.
16:10	freakazoid	Somehow guile's installation manages to be larger than spidermonkey's
16:10	freakazoid	probably because of all the examples
16:10	freakazoid	whereas spidermonkey is just the header files and library. Ah.
16:11	turbofail	tinyscheme maybe
16:12	freakazoid	Anything not in homebrew makes me suspicious ;-)
16:13	freakazoid	unless it has a native package
16:16	turbofail	tinyscheme is small enough that you can audit the source yourself if you're suspicious
16:17	freakazoid	I'll check it out
16:17	s450r1	how about gambit, chicken, or bigloo then? They are supposedly pretty easy to embed, since they all can compile scheme to C.
16:17	freakazoid	the current binary for this program is 1.2 megs, guile is 1.7 megs, lua is 328k, but I'd like to avoid lua
16:17	turbofail	though ironically one thing it was infamous for was that a malware developer mentioned that he used it in his work
16:18	freakazoid	this is for runtime config
16:18	freakazoid	tinyscheme?
16:18	turbofail	yeah
16:18	freakazoid	well, that is a testament to its ease of embeddability
16:18	s450r1	turbofail: I remember reading that interview too :-)
16:19	carkh	ah funny guile allows linking without infecting with the gpl
16:20	freakazoid	oh, I forgot to mention crossplatform… this thing will build and run on windows, but doesn't use autoconf so will need some work
16:20	turbofail	i've built tinyscheme using mingw
16:20	turbofail	it required very few tweaks
16:20	freakazoid	building it on OS X is proving to be a bit of a challenge.
16:21	turbofail	eh... can't help you there, that's one platform i've had zero time on
16:22	freakazoid	using the linux section is helping
16:23	freakazoid	hmm, it has a call to something called "ccommand" which I can't find any information on
16:24	turbofail	odd... my copy of the makefile doesn't have anything like that
16:24	freakazoid	Oh, it thinks I'm on apple and not osx
16:25	freakazoid	woo! it built!
16:27	turbofail	cool
16:29	fhd	Hi. I'm using the Clojure Maven plugin and I have to manually load my .clj files when calling mvn clojure:repl. Any hints what I can do about that?
16:30	kumarshantanu	fhd: what is "manually load"?
16:30	fhd	(load "foo/bar")
16:32	fhd	Steps to reproduce: 1. Create a file "bar.clj" in a directory "foo" with the following contents: (ns bla) (defn main [] (println "Hello, World!"))
16:32	fhd	2. Invoke mvn clojure:repl and try to execute "(foo.bar/main)" <-- doesn't work.
16:33	chouser	fhd: I think you need your .clj files in a different directory tree.
16:33	fhd	3. Invoke mvn clojure:repl and execute '(load "foo/bar") (foo.bar/main)' <-- works
16:33	fhd	chouser: which one?
16:33	kumarshantanu	is foo/bar in classpath?
16:34	chouser	fhd: I haven't used maven much. just a sec...
16:34	fhd	kumarshantanu: I think clojure:repl adds it. It does at least compile it.
16:35	fhd	I'm not exactly sure if clojure:repl is supposed to load my .clj files, I'm just expecting that.
16:35	abrenk	fhd: your .clj files are supposed to be in src/main/clojure
16:35	cemerick	fhd: it doesn't -- you have to use/require them per usual
16:35	fhd	abrenk: They are. If they weren't they wouldn't be compiled.
16:35	cemerick	and what abrenk said
16:36	kumarshantanu	fhd: hmm, repl doesn't load files by default
16:36	fhd	cemerick: I'm new to clojure, is use/require an alterantive to load?
16:36	cemerick	fhd: load is essentially never used in app-level clojure code
16:37	cemerick	see use and require, as well as their associated forms in ns
16:37	AWizzArd	cemerick: I am using load at a few places
16:37	hiredman	we use load for somethings too
16:37	technomancy	"use" is old-school; I'm porting my code over to "uses"
16:37	cemerick	AWizzArd: Indeed. See "essentially" :-)
16:37	AWizzArd	It allows me to move some code parts into different files, and they share the NS.
16:37	technomancy	(not really)
16:37	abrenk	fhd: you could specify replScript in the configuration and require your namespaces there
16:37	AWizzArd	cemerick: yes okay, not typical, I agree
16:37	chouser	lein source code trees aren't laid out the same as maven source code trees?
16:38	cemerick	nope
16:38	abrenk	chouser: not by default
16:38	AWizzArd	I use it very rarely, and 98% goes into require
16:38	AWizzArd	like technomancy said
16:38	AWizzArd	technomancy: one could use with a :only specifier
16:38	technomancy	AWizzArd: actually I was joking; "uses" hasn't been implemented yet
16:38	AWizzArd	...use 'use' with...
16:38	freakazoid	tinyscheme looks like exactly what we need. Thanks, turbofail!
16:38	technomancy	it's a mythical replacement to unify use/require/refer
16:39	AWizzArd	ah, I only got that first part, before the semicolon
16:39	kumarshantanu	fhd: just curious - are you trying to do interactive development using the REPL?
16:39	fhd	I see, it works with both require and use. Does that mean I have to require all the namespaces I want to use? Is there a combination of require/use and ns so I can switch namespace directly?
16:39	hiredman	I was looking at some example code for a database project some guy just posted to the mailing list, and he seems to think use is uses
16:39	fhd	kumarshantanu: I'm actually just trying to do some random experiments with Clojure
16:39	clojurebot	clojure bot is not immune to ,(iterate inc 0)
16:39	AWizzArd	strange that I didn't see the other part.. it is like the situation when a lisp newbie tells me that there are too many parens. Only when I get this explicit remark I even notice them.
16:39	hiredman	the code does (:use some.name.space :as space :only ())
16:40	cemerick	fhd: not in a bare repl -- require + in-ns is typical
16:40	cemerick	Good tools will provide you with a load-and-switch-ns command, tied to the current buffer, etc.
16:40	fhd	cemerick: :( Pretty ugly with long package names
16:40	hiredman	you can provide short cuts in a user.clj
16:40	cemerick	fhd: almost no one uses bare repls for development AFAIK
16:41	cemerick	except for chouser ;-)
16:41	abrenk	fhd: add <configuration><replScript>src/main/scripts/repl.clj</replScript></configuration> to the plugin and use "require" and "in-ns" in that file.
16:41	chouser	it builds character
16:41	cemerick	and RSI, I presume
16:41	kumarshantanu	fhd: it seems you can specify an initialization script for clojure:repl in pom.xml -- http://github.com/talios/clojure-maven-plugin
16:41	chouser	nope, vi-bindings destroy RSI
16:42	fhd	abrenk, kumarshantanu: Thanks, looks useful.
16:42	kumarshantanu	fhd: search for "clojure:repl" on the page
16:42	fhd	I could also define my own require-and-ns in that file :)
16:42	hiredman	ahem
16:42	hiredman	user.clj
16:42	hiredman	no xml required
16:43	abrenk	hiredman: but then user.clj is packaged into the jar...
16:43	hiredman	depends on what your classpath is vs. what you are packaging
16:43	kotarak	In (let [x (int 1234)] (< x 4321))... Do I have to hint 4321 with (int)?
16:44	chouser	kotarak: which version of Clojure?
16:44	kotarak	1.2 for now, but later on 1.3 of course.
16:45	chouser	well, you never have to hint. but for unboxed math in 1.2, yes you need (int 4321)
16:45	abrenk	hiredman: the script config could get some sensible defaults... perhaps I'll put together a patch for that.
16:45	kotarak	chouser: yeah. unboxed was the question.
16:45	LauJensen	hugod: bestinclass.dk is now Tomcat driven
16:45	kotarak	chouser: should I also go with long instead of int?
16:45	kotarak	chouser: for future proofness
16:46	chouser	hm.
16:46	chouser	(clojure.contrib.repl-utils/expression-info '(let [x (int 1234)] (< x 4321)))
16:46	alexyk	ninjudd: is there a way to blink closing/open parens as rlwrap does? I really miss that in cake
16:46	chouser	that should tell you the truth -- but I'm getting :primitive? true on 1.2, which surprises me.
16:46	ninjudd	alexyk: i wasn't aware rlwrap did that
16:47	alexyk	ninjudd: beautifully
16:47	kotarak	Ah. Expression-info....
16:47	chouser	oh, nm
16:47	fhd	Is there a way to require multiple namespaces with a wildcard? e.g. (require foo.*)?
16:47	chouser	boolean primitive. duh.
16:47	kumarshantanu	fhd: no wildcards available
16:47	kotarak	hahaha :) Yeah. expected from <.
16:47	ninjudd	alexyk: sounds like a great first cake contribution for you ;-)
16:48	alexyk	ninjudd: I need to write up my PhD first, by then will run on assembly if need be :)
16:48	alexyk	but I'll investigate how rlwrap does the blinkin'
16:48	chouser	kotarak: hang on -- testing 1.3.x
16:49	fhd	cemerick: What are the tools you mentioned other Clojure devs use?
16:49	chouser	cemerick: If I'm a maven-clojure user and want to just start up a quick repl in some specific version of clojure, what would be my best route?
16:49	hugod	LauJensen: :) if you let me know the issues you had, I can embed the solutions in the #pallet tomcat crate
16:50	chouser	technomancy: If I'm a lein user and want to just start up a quick repl in some specific version of clojure, what would be my best route?
16:50	cemerick	chouser: assuming you're on the command line: set your clojure dependency version, `mvn clojure:repl`
16:50	chouser	ninjudd: If I'm a cake user and want to just start up a quick repl in some specific version of clojure, what would be my best route?
16:50	chouser	cemerick: how do I set my clojure dependency version?
16:50	chouser	do I have a project dir sitting around just for such occasions?
16:51	technomancy	chouser: lein new scratch-project; edit project.clj, then lein repl should do it
16:51	KirinDave	So guys.
16:51	technomancy	lein repl got a significant fix in 1.4.0-snapshot
16:51	KirinDave	I gots more advice to consider.
16:51	cemerick	fhd: you sound like a lisp user; I'd point you in that direction if that's the case. Otherwise, counterclockwise for eclipse, enclojure for netbeans.
16:51	technomancy	chouser: actually if you don't have a project, cljr might be better
16:51	KirinDave	Anyone want to let me sound off them?
16:51	fhd	cemerick: Ah, I thought you meant commandline alternatives to REPL.
16:52	chouser	technomancy: ok, scratch project
16:52	kotarak	chouser: you didn't ask for gradle, but I have to market things. Apply the clojure plugin in build.gradle, add clojure dependency of choice, start your favorite editor backend via a custom task. The last step is kind of not implemented right now, but eg. a VimClojure task will be there in the future.
16:52	cemerick	chouser: yeah, that's assuming you've got a pom.
16:52	ninjudd	chouser: if you want to do it without creating a project, just run 'cake' from your home directory. then you can edit the global project (~/.cake/project.clj) to specify the version of clojure you want
16:52	KirinDave	As Webmachine moves down the state graph
16:53	ninjudd	the default is 1.2.0
16:53	KirinDave	In the erlang impl it sets up temporary variables
16:53	chouser	kotarak: sorry, no offense intended!
16:53	KirinDave	I'm wondering how I should mirror that.
16:53	ninjudd	chouser: to start a repl after changing your clojure version, just do 'cake repl'
16:53	KirinDave	With bindings?
16:53	kotarak	chouser: non taken. Just to keep it on the radar. ;) (shameless promotion)
16:54	fhd	cemerick: Still, how does Counterclockwise prevent me from having to require/ns?
16:54	KirinDave	https://gist.github.com/e1b9d6920877fa5ed3bc
16:54	fhd	cemerick: I've tried it and it seems to bascially run a REPL inside Eclipse.
16:54	KirinDave	The erlang code puts the chosen response handler in a temp variable.
16:54	lancepantz	chouser: in short, just 'cake repl' will give you a repl with 1.2
16:54	cemerick	fhd: There's a load-and-switch-ns command that loads the current file and switches you to the corresponding ns.
16:54	KirinDave	Should I do that?
16:54	KirinDave	With like, um, bindings?
16:54	chouser	hm, so the basic pattern is: scratch project, set dependency version. Do any of these work with a custom clojure.jar?
16:54	fhd	cemerick: Oh, I see.
16:55	lancepantz	chouser: if you want a different version, you can edit ~/.cake/project.clj to change the global project
16:55	cemerick	chouser: that you built locally?
16:55	kotarak	fhd: VimClojure provides an option to start a repl with the initial namespace set to the one of the current file. Maybe ccw provides something similar.
16:55	kumarshantanu	fhd: in Eclipse/CCW, you just right-click a .clj file and say "Run in REPL"
16:55	kotarak	chouser: yep.
16:55	chouser	cemerick: right. I just changed Compiler.java, ran ant, I want to try it out.
16:56	chouser	KirinDave: almost certainly not bindings
16:56	kumarshantanu	fhd: CCW loads the namespace automatically and switches ns for you
16:56	KirinDave	chouser: Why?
16:56	hugod	KirinDave: I just moved pallet from bindings to passing an explicit map argument, and I haven't regretted it - haven't looked at your use case though...
16:56	jjido	Dave: bindings is for vars that you want to attach to a specific thread isn't it
16:56	cemerick	chouser: if you run ant using the target that is used in hudson (ci-build?) that will install a clojure.jar snapshot locally, which should get picked up immediately by your next mvn invocation (assuming your dep is set for the corresponding snapshot version).
16:57	KirinDave	jjido: Bindings are for dynamic scope. It can be used for thread bindings.
16:57	fhd	Hm, I see, it works. Problem is that I'd prefer working on the commandline with mvn clojure:repl. I think I'll just live with the duplication for now...
16:57	KirinDave	hugod: It just.. gets kinda tedious to move all that around.
16:57	chouser	cemerick: interesting.
16:57	cemerick	chouser: it's exactly the same process that build.clojure.org uses, which I have to presume will work in a single-user setting.
16:58	kotarak	fhd: maybe you can start up the backend via maven and tell ccw to connect to it?
16:58	cemerick	Which is why I've never quite understood you and Rich having such trouble with the workflow.
16:58	hugod	KirinDave: I use a single map argument - which can then be used to pass different keys as required - tedious to set up, maybe
16:58	fhd	kotarak: wouldn't that still require Eclipse?
16:58	KirinDave	I just need to keep in mind scala compatibility in the future.
16:58	KirinDave	Maps of maps of maps will make them angry.
16:59	chouser	KirinDave: if you use bindings you have basically zero options when it comes to delays, closures, multiple threads, saving state machine state anywhere, etc.
16:59	kotarak	fhd: Oh sorry. I though you were using eclipse.
16:59	fhd	kotarak: I do, sometimes, but I'd rather not for clojure :)
16:59	kumarshantanu	kotarak: the unified REPL-over-network interface is in works I guess (for CCW, in this case)
16:59	fhd	Okay I think I've got it. What I want is to create a number of examples and execute them explicitly.
17:00	fhd	So I think I'll just create a Java main class that accepts a sample as an argument.
17:00	fhd	I think that's how clojure.main works, isn't it?
17:00	kotarak	kumarshantanu: I know. Working in VimClojure
17:07	AWizzArd	Hey aav, und ihr anderen deutschsprachigen, es gibt auch einen deutschen Clojure-Kanal. Einfach mal ein .de anhängen und joinen :-)
17:13	chouser	cemerick: looks like I want my own thing (target?) to launch a customized repl
17:13	chouser	I guess I should look at creating my own maven plugin?
17:20	cemerick	chouser: you mean for your highlighting, etc?
17:20	chouser	yeah, but more importantly rlwrap
17:21	chouser	hm, maybe that's backwards.
17:21	abrenk	why's there no "ant repl" target?
17:25	LauJensen	tomoj: I almost... cant...hold my breath... any longer...
17:36	AWizzArd	Anyone here who knows the gzipIOstreams "well"?
17:37	AWizzArd	Their constructor offers a size argument, for a buffer. Does this mean that a BufferedIOStream is not required, as the gzipstream implicitly creates one?
17:47	cemerick	chouser: I don't use rlwrap myself, but I have to assume it'd be rlwrap mvn ...
17:49	jjido	is there a "letrecord" like there is a "letfn"?
17:50	jjido	I want to change the way it implements a protocol without adding a new type at the top level
17:50	raek	jjido: no, but you might be intetested in reify
17:51	jjido	raek: yesI think so
17:52	chouser	cemerick: yeah, had just realized that
17:52	chouser	cemerick: how do you quit out of said repl? EOF such as ^D doesn't seem to work.
17:52	chouser	really, I'm just whining. why doesn't ^D work. :-)
17:53	KirinDave	Is there a version of if-let that allows for more bindings?
17:54	chouser	not standard, that I know of.
17:55	KirinDave	chouser: https://gist.github.com/4a808194d428697eeb9f makes me feel dirty.
17:59	chouser	that's not really too bad. could use a second if-let inside
18:00	chouser	better than http://gist.github.com/560765 for example
18:00	jjido	raek: if I want to add fields to my reify'ed record, can I merge it with an existing record?
18:01	chouser	jjido: yep, but that won't bring in any implemented methods
18:01	chouser	ok, gotta run. ciao all
18:01	jjido	chouser: that's fine thanks
18:01	raek	,(merge (reify) {:a 1, :b 2})
18:02	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: sandbox$eval8647$reify__8648 cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection
18:02	raek	hrm, right.
18:03	raek	reify is more like an anonymnous deftype rather than a defrecord
18:03	Munksgaard	Hi. I'm really lost here, how do i use the clojure-contrib functions? I'm on a completely fresh install, i've downloaded leiningen created a new project and downloaded the deps, but when i start a repl i cant use the contrib libs... Isnt it (:require clojure.contrib.math) ?
18:04	raek	that makes sure that it is loaded, but yoy can't use the vars in that namespace without qualifying the symbol
18:04	raek	(clojure.contrib.math/some-math-fn 1 2 3)
18:04	AWizzArd	Munksgaard: do you have this (:require ...) inside a (ns ...) declaration?
18:04	AWizzArd	Or do you try this in the repl?
18:05	raek	the corresponding function is used like this: (require 'clojure.contrib.math) ;notice the quote
18:05	Munksgaard	AWizzArd, i'm trying it in a repl, and i get classnotfoundexecption)
18:06	Munksgaard	raek, (clojure.contrib.math/expt 2 4) gives me a classnotfoundexception
18:06	raek	Munksgaard: the :require variant is for inside ns only
18:06	AWizzArd	try it without the :
18:06	Munksgaard	raek, if i do (ns munksgaard (:require clojure.contrib.math)) i get nil and it just hangs
18:06	raek	hangs?
18:06	Munksgaard	i dont get a new promt (=>)
18:06	raek	there was a bug that made the output no flush sometimes
18:06	AWizzArd	in emacs?
18:06	cemerick	chouser: ^C ?
18:07	raek	try evaling 1 or something
18:07	Munksgaard	no, im in the terminal now, with lein repl
18:07	Munksgaard	1 evals to 1 fine
18:07	raek	after the ns thingy too?
18:07	AWizzArd	Munksgaard: and what does happen when you say (require 'clojure.contrib.math)
18:07	Munksgaard	raek, oh, when it hangs? no
18:07	AWizzArd	i.e. not :require
18:08	Munksgaard	hmm
18:08	Munksgaard	sec
18:08	raek	it shouldn't hang.
18:08	AWizzArd	and it should probably reply with nil
18:08	apgwoz	so, i'm trying to compile a simple clojure file using ant and failing miserably. i'd use leiningen and not have any problem, except i'm trying to integrate this with a bigger ant build...
18:08	Munksgaard	raek, hmm, it doesnt give me a new prompt, but when i typed in 1 it returned to functioning normally
18:08	AWizzArd	apgwoz: you already have a target for compilation?
18:08	clojurebot	compilation is see compile
18:08	apgwoz	i've gotten my build file down to the bare minimum, but it still fails. anyone able to take a look if i paste the error, and source?
18:08	Munksgaard	so i get a new prompt after evaling 1
18:08	raek	Munksgaard: then it was the output flush bug...
18:09	raek	it has been fixed, but maybe not in the most recent jar
18:09	apgwoz	AWizzArd: yeah, i've created a second build file to figure out the problem
18:09	Munksgaard	raek, okay. So every time i want to use, say expt, i need to do (clojure.contrib.math/expt base expt)?
18:09	raek	Munksgaard: use ns declaration in source file, and the underlying functions at the repl
18:09	lazy1	Can we have http://richhickey.github.com/clojure* redirect to http://clojure.github.com/clojure* ?
18:10	raek	Munksgaard: replace require with use, and you don't have to do that
18:10	raek	or do a (require '[clojure.contrib.math :as m])
18:10	AWizzArd	apgwoz: inside your target you should have something like <java classname="clojure.lang.Compile" fork="true"><sysproperty key="clojure.compile.path" value="${build.dir}"/><classpath refid="classpath"/><arg value="your.namespace"/></java>
18:10	raek	then you can use m/expt
18:11	apgwoz	AWizzArd: yup, I know
18:11	Munksgaard	raek, okay, cool. Thanks a lot both of you, i'll try to play around with it
18:11	AWizzArd	apgwoz: so, then it should work :)
18:11	apgwoz	https://gist.github.com/06cc3d292d10047ed5ee
18:11	apgwoz	it doesn't. i get this error
18:11	jjido	wow if what I just wrote works, I deserve an award
18:13	freakazoid	I've found that generally with clojure actually, jjido… I write something and it just works
18:13	freakazoid	and I'm surprised.
18:13	freakazoid	SLIME helps a lot with that
18:13	jjido	freakazoid: don't you get scared?
18:13	AWizzArd	apgwoz: on a first glimpse it does indeed look correctish
18:13	freakazoid	a little
18:13	freakazoid	but clojure's like my 27th programming language
18:14	apgwoz	AWizzArd: that's why I'm asking... :)
18:14	apgwoz	thanks for looking
18:14	freakazoid	though it's my first jvm language
18:14	lazy1	freakazoid: What was #1?
18:14	freakazoid	BASIC on an IBM PC in 1982
18:14	jjido	freakazoid: really? would you mind having a look at http://dodo.sourceforge.net and criticise?
18:15	lazy1	I guess everybody started with basic then (I d●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●)id
18:15	lazy1	Ooops
18:15	AWizzArd	apgwoz: one thing that I would try is <arg value="com.thingy.feed-queue.core" /> (the underscore replaced by a minus)
18:16	apgwoz	AH! i bet that's it
18:16	apgwoz	AWizzArd: indeed. that did it
18:16	apgwoz	thanks for catching that!
18:16	AWizzArd	great
18:16	AWizzArd	yes yes, this underscore-minus-thingy can be a tricky beast
18:17	freakazoid	jjido: I have not seen the terms "prototype" and "class" used together in that way before.
18:18	jjido	freakazoid: the class is quite standard though
18:18	jjido	freakazoid: only it is implemented using prototypes
18:19	AWizzArd	apgwoz: it seems you are doing Python. Do you use (or did you try) Jython?
18:19	apgwoz	AWizzArd: we're using it at work for some things, so yes
18:19	freakazoid	jjido: it looks like you have both
18:19	jjido	freakazoid: yep
18:21	anonymouse89	anyone have a problem with lein where "lein uberjar" hangs on "Copying .. files to .."?
18:21	jjido	freakazoid: the whole thing (save for parallelism) is constructed on top of prototypes and continuations
18:24	freakazoid	jjido: does dodo have call/cc?
18:24	jjido	freakazoid: nope I am against it
18:25	freakazoid	does it have TCO?
18:26	freakazoid	jjido: In general I am not a fan of the need to thread callbacks/continuations through the code; I'd much rather have some kind of lightweight thread, coroutine, or even generator that can just block, yield, etc.
18:28	freakazoid	though your syntax for it isn't bad
18:29	freakazoid	haskell's do syntax is a little cleaner.
18:32	freakazoid	having states built directly into the syntax reminds me of LSL
18:32	freakazoid	though in LSL they're script states
18:32	jjido	freakazoid: what is LSL?
18:33	freakazoid	jjido: that's Second Life's scripting language
18:33	freakazoid	jjido: an object can have an arbitrary number of scripts that each execute concurrently and independently. The scripts have multiple states and each state has a set of event handlers defined
18:34	freakazoid	the set of events is fixed and there are (very) primitive messaging facilities.
18:34	jjido	freakazoid: that resembles the scheme I defined for services
18:38	freakazoid	jjido: What I'd really like to see for dodo is an expansion of the top section where you talk about your design goals, particularly how each of your design choices drives you toward that goal
18:39	jjido	good idea freakazoid
18:40	freakazoid	I'm quite interested in finding out what new and rare ideas you're interested in
18:40	jjido	I have blog posts but they are in French
18:40	jjido	freakazoid: I follow ltu for fresh ideas ;)
18:41	freakazoid	Me too, though I can't understand half the papers on there
18:41	freakazoid	My understanding of type theory is still limited
18:41	freakazoid	I can derive it from first principles, but the language around it confuses me
18:42	freakazoid	hmm, that's true of a lot of math, cs, and physics papers, actually. I can understand the concepts involved, just not the language
18:42	jjido	same for me
18:43	freakazoid	I need to actually sit down and learn Haskell. I feel like it would be a big mind-expander
18:43	freakazoid	I only vaguely know OCaml or Haskell at this point
18:43	freakazoid	so all my languages are either old, crappy type systems like pascal or c++ or dynamically typed
18:44	turbofail	formal math notation vs. Haskell: http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/puzzles/node3.html vs. http://okmij.org/ftp/Haskell/Mr-S-P.lhs
18:45	jjido	OCaml is not old? ;0
18:46	freakazoid	Its type system is pretty much Standard ML's
18:46	freakazoid	Yes, it's old
18:46	freakazoid	Sorry, I misread.
18:47	freakazoid	I don't know what you call Pascal and C++'s type systems
18:47	freakazoid	in a way they're weak, though most people consider them strongly typed
18:52	amalloy	freakazoid: i've heard C++ described as weak, static typing
18:52	freakazoid	then what's C?
18:52	freakazoid	C is weaker than C++
18:52	freakazoid	and than Pascal
18:52	freakazoid	Pascal and C++ seem about the same in terms of their strongness
18:52	amalloy	so? it's weak too, and also static
18:52	amalloy	you don't need another word for every slight difference
18:52	freakazoid	I suppose that's true.
18:52	amalloy	C++ lets you cast anything to anything
18:53	amalloy	that is pretty weak
18:53	freakazoid	it makes you jump through more hoops to do it though :)
18:53	freakazoid	and provides nice features like dynamic_cast
18:53	amalloy	yep. and that's what makes it static, mainly: the hoops
18:54	freakazoid	of course, you don't have to jump through any hoops to segfault though
18:54	amalloy	clojure is an interesting example of strong, dynamic typing: you don't need to know what type things are, but if you treat them as something else, the program fails
18:54	freakazoid	since there's no bounds checking and nothing at all to help you write safe multithreaded code
18:54	freakazoid	seems like most dynamically typed languages are strongly typed
18:54	amalloy	php
18:55	amalloy	maybe python too, but i don't do any python so i may be misunderstanding
18:55	freakazoid	well, that's not true; automatic type coercion can lead to pretty hilarious errors.
18:55	amalloy	anyway i find it helpful to think of two axes: strong/weak, and dynamic/static
18:55	freakazoid	(that most of them are strongly typed)
18:55	freakazoid	that makes sense
18:55	freakazoid	I'd been thinking along those lines as well
18:55	freakazoid	python won't let you add an int to a string like perl and tcl will
18:56	freakazoid	so python's a bit stronger
18:56	freakazoid	I'm not a fan of any sort of operator overloading, myself
18:56	freakazoid	+ should always mean "add"
18:58	technomancy	well you can add to a set.
18:58	technomancy	in English
18:59	freakazoid	you really only run into trouble when operator overloading is combined with automatic coercion, I guess.
18:59	jjido	freakazoid: then I sinned ;) Dodo lets you redefine the operators, provided your type has the appropriate qualifier (+ is special, on its own in the Augmentable qualifier)
18:59	freakazoid	jjido: the real question is "what mistakes are programmers likely to make?"
19:00	jjido	freakazoid: use the wrong interface for their type?
19:00	freakazoid	and "how does your language help programmers avoid mistakes without using the expedient of making them repeat themselves?"
19:01	jjido	Also, too much state is not good.
19:01	freakazoid	yeah, the way Rust handles state seems pretty cool
19:01	freakazoid	and clojure
19:01	jjido	There are some parts that make the programmers repeat themselves
19:02	jjido	like, if you want private members then you need to define a public interface separately
19:03	jjido	For a library you also need to specify what to export
19:05	jjido	freakazoid: in my opinion Clojure is a bit inconvenient when you want state
19:05	jjido	but I don't know it that well yet
19:05	defn	freakazoid: i disagree -- i think it makes state easier to manage
19:06	defn	when you're working on a clojure app -- you can point to specific functions and say: "look, this has state."
19:06	defn	it just feels like you have more command over it
19:07	freakazoid	defn: I think you meant to respond to jjido. I agree with you :)
19:07	defn	oh sorry -- yeah
19:07	freakazoid	most languages don't really think at all about state
19:07	freakazoid	it's pretty much up to the programmer to either touch something or not touch it
19:08	freakazoid	and it's very syntactically convenient to mutate arbitrary data
19:08	freakazoid	the most convenient way should be the way least likely to have bugs.
19:09	defn	it felt weird at first, but i feel like it's "sloppy" to handle state in other ways now
19:10	abrenk	chouser: you're interested in how to easily build clojure-contrib with a customized clojure jar, right? what do you think about http://github.com/abrenk/clojure-contrib/commit/21a8ba7a3bed01008388f842c47054539f83e76a ?
19:11	jjido	freakazoid: my approach is: local mutations only in functions, do-whatever-you-want in constructors (which cannot be called from functions)
19:12	abrenk	chouser: I think I got rid of the hoops especially rhickey was complaining about
19:15	abrenk	cemerick: perhaps you could also take a quick look at my latest change proposal to the clojure-contrib build (see url above)
19:16	cemerick	abrenk: Seems fine to me.
19:17	cemerick	though, as I was saying to chouser earlier, using the ci-oriented build target implemented in clojure's build.xml should make building contrib against the last-built snapshot easy and automatic.
19:18	abrenk	cemerick: yeah, but only if you set maven to offline - otherwise it might overwrite your local snapshot with a more recent one from the snapshot repo
19:19	cemerick	abrenk: very true -- but that's very unlikely within the course of a 24-hour period.
19:19	defn	cemerick: re:githubfinder -- thanks for the credit on twitter :)
19:19	defn	my coworker showed me that today and i freaked
19:20	cemerick	abrenk: I've been trying to get him and Rich away from a simple `ant; mvn` process for a bit :-/
19:20	defn	best way to view a github project without pulling source
19:20	cemerick	defn: credit?
19:20	cemerick	Oh, right, I heard about it from you :-)
19:20	cemerick	(too many handles in my life)
19:20	defn	yeah i was just saying thanks cause i saw it go across twitter but you gave me credit :)
19:20	cemerick	of course
19:21	defn	i forget about twitter
19:21	cemerick	Yes, it's a little absurd that every directory descent requires a full refresh.
19:21	defn	yeah, it's painfully hard to navigate a source tree
19:23	abrenk	cemerick: I'm just trying to soften the hard edges in the maven build so that the "talent" can focus on their areas of expertise
19:23	cemerick	abrenk: definitely appreciated :-)
19:23	cemerick	do you have a CA in?
19:24	abrenk	it's on its way
19:24	cemerick	excellent
19:24	cemerick	I wonder just how much time I'm going to end up talking about maven/build stuff at the conj...
19:27	abrenk	do you plan to record the talks? would be a nice addition to the blip.tv channel!
19:29	KirinDave	Oh man, I love clojure.
19:29	KirinDave	All my lisp instincts are coming back.
19:30	jjido_	,(cons 2 9)
19:30	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer
19:31	KirinDave	jjido_: Does that surprise you? :)
19:31	KirinDave	It'd work in common lisp tho.
19:31	jjido_	KirinDave: exactly
19:31	KirinDave	There isn't much of a reason do have cons be a generic data structure in clojure.
19:32	KirinDave	The #1 reason was structure sharing (do you see my pun! this is a visual pun!) and the #2 reason was to make micro hashtables
20:12	gstamp	Question... if I (read) at the REPL I can read in an expression no problem however if I try (def my-val (read)) at the REPL I get a ClassCastException. Why the difference?
20:16	troussan	gstam: it works for me on 1.2
20:16	gstamp	hrrm. ok. i am still on the 1.2 beta. I'll upgrade and try again
20:17	KirinDave	gstamp: Let me guess
20:17	KirinDave	you're trying to do something like (def my-val (read))
20:17	KirinDave	And then type in an fn expression?
20:19	gstamp	Looks like it's working now. Sorry for the noise.
20:30	ataggart	is anyone here working on the master branch out of git?
20:47	rickmode	does defrecord support a docstring?
20:50	dnolen	ataggart: do you just mean using it?
20:51	ataggart	dnolen: yes. I submitted a patch that makes some changes to the way methods/contructors are resolved, and was hoping someone using 1.3. could try it out
20:51	ataggart	rickmode: I don't think so
20:52	dnolen	ataggart: I can't test it out at the moment, but if you send me a link to the ticket/patch I can try it out later.
20:52	rickmode	ataggart: thanks. I don't see it in the docs, source or examples either. Odd inconsistency. oh well.
20:53	ataggart	dnolen: that'd be great. https://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/445
20:55	jjido_	does reify create a type, not a record?
20:55	ataggart	it creates a new anonymous clas that implements the interfaces/protocols
20:55	ataggart	and then returns an instance of that class
20:57	ataggart	so in that regard it's more like type than the mapiness of record.
20:57	jjido	ataggart: and if I want it to implement clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection?
20:59	ataggart	jjido: then you'd need to implement the methods. The particular approach depends a lot on what you're trying to accomplish.
21:00	jjido	What I am trying to do is to take a record implementing a protocol, and override one of the methods without creating a new top-level type.
21:02	jjido	I tried: (merge (reify myprotocol (mymethod [self] ...)) self)
21:09	jjido	suggestions?
21:11	ataggart	this is just a one-off instance?
21:11	ataggart	Trying to understand the restrictions
21:13	jjido	ataggart: yes, just a one-off instance
21:15	jjido	created depending on arguments
21:15	ataggart	k lemme past something into gist
21:17	ataggart	maybe like this: http://gist.github.com/610783
21:18	ataggart	basically composition instead of extension
21:26	ataggart	whoops, updated to include the missing protocol definition
21:27	jjido	ataggart: that is equivalent to my solution isn't it? What if you want to access a field of r2?
21:29	ataggart	depends on who's doing the accessing
21:29	ataggart	if it's the reified instance, then you can reach the field
21:29	ataggart	but not externally
21:29	ataggart	since that field isn't part of the protocol
21:29	jjido	(defrecord R [gah] ...) ... (:gah r2)
21:29	ataggart	so, I infer the use of the refiied instance is not limited to the protocol definition
21:30	jjido	mmh no it is not. I could add an accessor but it would not be part of this protocol.
21:31	jjido	I will just do a new protocol for the accessor and be done with it :)
21:40	jjido	ataggart: eh, maybe the error I got was because of trying (merge) on a (reify). I need that to work (the record I use is not known in advance)...
21:41	jjido	I will have another look at (extend)
22:14	jjido	I give up... Looks like that is not possible in Clojure
22:17	Nate75Sanders	who's up for a drunken Visual Basic sprint?
22:17	Nate75Sanders	sorry wrong window
22:18	lancepantz	hah
22:27	amalloy1	Nate75Sanders: does that mean we're not invited?
22:29	ataggart	jjido: if you just need to have the lookup behavior, then implement clojure.lang.ILookup
22:29	ataggart	e.g., clojure.lang.ILookup (valAt [_ key] (get r key))(valAt [_ key nf] (get r key nf))
22:30	ataggart	it's ugly, but it's possible
22:30	jjido	ataggart: ok... I need to check if that works for me.
22:32	ataggart	hmm, didn't realize until just now that records can't be used as fns like maps can
22:32	hsuh	leiningen question: suppose i want to use ring, don't know the last version, how would you do it ? clojars displays more than one match for ring
22:35	ataggart	iirc maven supports wildcarded versions
22:35	ataggart	thus lein should
22:37	Nate75Sanders	amalloy1: no mouse allowed -- this is an all-keyboard drunken VB sprint
22:37	ataggart	luddites ;)
22:38	Nate75Sanders	I remember in my day we didn't have wildcards and we liked it
22:38	amalloy1	Nate75Sanders: it's cool, i use emacs on the terminal. i'll just have to learn vb :P
22:40	Nate75Sanders	There should be more "Rosetta Stones" in tech. Cookbooks are certainly a step in the right direction but Rosetta Stones would be good, too. I've tried to pick up emacs several times and it just didn't take. Maybe a rosetta stone isn't the right thing for this particular situation as vim and emacs are so different.
22:40	Nate75Sanders	Rosetta stones seem right for languages, though.
22:42	Nate75Sanders	I'm drunk and off-topic, though, so kick me out of the channel if need be.
22:46	amalloy1	haha. well, i'm only ignoring you cause you're not giving me name highlights, Nate75Sanders :P
22:47	Nate75Sanders	amalloy1: sorry man
22:48	amalloy1	i think emacs took for me (like three months ago) mainly because vi never took. so i'm not really the best source
22:48	ataggart	http://rosettacode.org/
22:50	Nate75Sanders	ataggart: thanks -- not bad
23:15	ldhanson2	I have a set which i'm trying to add into a sorted set. like (sorted-set-by comparator other-set). that gives a set with one element (the other set). what i want is each element of other-set to be added to the created set. i could do that with apply: (apply sorted-set other-set), but i can't pass the comparator in using apply. any thoughts?
23:31	amalloy	,(let [myset (sorted-set-by <)] (into myset #{4 7 1 6}))
23:31	clojurebot	#{1 4 6 7}
23:31	amalloy	ldhanson2: ^^
23:33	amalloy	of course, this still works if myset already has elements
23:33	ossareh	'lo. Anyone run any jython stuff from their clj?