#clojure – 2010-05-12

2010-05-12

00:02	sids	technomancy: yea, please -- it's a pain to add it to every single project!
00:02	technomancy	sids: well you'd still have to add swank-clojure as a dev-dep
00:02	technomancy	I don't think I'm quite ready to make that an automatic dep on every lein project. =)
00:02	technomancy	as much as I'm tempted
00:03	sids	technomancy: oh. did you consider supporting a "template" project.clj that lein new uses? maybe pick it up from some standard location..
00:03	technomancy	sids: it's on the roadmap
00:03	technomancy	I need to add user-level plugins first
00:03	technomancy	since a plugin like that wouldn't make sense if it had to be activated on a per-project level
00:03	MadWombat	can someone point me to an example of a servlet using recent version of ring?
00:04	MadWombat	like a hello world servlet
00:04	sids	technomancy: cool, template project.clj would allow emacs users to add swank-clojure (or even lein-swank) as a dev-dependency to all projects easily
00:07	lancepantz	MadWombat: i have one i can put on github for you if you'd like
00:07	technomancy	sids: if you're interested in the functionality it might be a fun little hack to experiment upon
00:07	technomancy	it'll probably be a while before I get around to it
00:07	sids	technomancy: sure, I'll give it a shot!
00:08	technomancy	sids: I guess there are a couple of things needed for that
00:08	MadWombat	technomancy: that would be nice, thanks, or maybe just a quick question, when I replace (run-jetty with (defservice I get an error, that I pass a wrong number of apps to routes function
00:08	technomancy	0) plugins activated on a per-user basis, probably listed from a ~/.lein.clj file
00:09	technomancy	1) being able to wrap built-in commands from plugins
00:09	technomancy	2) the new-template plugin itself
00:09	lancepantz	MadWombat: the defroutes syntax is different now
00:09	MadWombat	heh
00:09	MadWombat	I don't use defroutes, should i?
00:10	lancepantz	oh, i do, its in compojure not ring though
00:10	MadWombat	yeah
00:10	MadWombat	at this point all I have is (defn routes [req] (handle-dump req))
00:11	sids	technomancy: have you done any work on per-user plugins? can't figure it out from the git log
00:11	technomancy	sids: only in my head
00:13	technomancy	sids: the first step would be to hack the bin script to check for jars in (possibly something like) ~/.leiningen/plugins to add to the classpath
00:13	technomancy	then maybe load ~/.leiningen/init.clj, which would contain calls to require all the plugins you want activated
00:14	sids	technomancy: that should be straightforward, I'll also pour through the leiningen codebase to understand it better
00:14	technomancy	not sure how you'd get the plugin jars into ~/.leiningen/plugins in the first place though; probably want to symlink them from ~/.m2/repo
00:14	technomancy	there's not a lot of code there; I think it's only around 700 lines
00:14	lancepantz	MadWombat: it looks like your munging the syntax of the app and middleware
00:15	sids	technomancy: wouldn't it be better if the the plugins you want to use are also just specified in a .clj file? then they can just be added as dev-dependencies
00:15	MadWombat	lancepantz: ?
00:15	lancepantz	check out http://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/example/wrapping.clj
00:15	technomancy	sids: they can't just be in a .clj file since you need to add them to the classpath before the JVM loads
00:16	lancepantz	your middleware is passed app, not a request
00:16	sids	technomancy: ok, got it, these are plugins for lein itself, not the projects
00:17	technomancy	sids: right, activated for all actions the user takes across all project
00:17	technomancy	*projects
00:17	sids	got it
00:17	MadWombat	lancepantz: lemme check, it compiled after I removed all wrappers and passed the unchanged routes method to the defservice
00:18	MadWombat	lancepantz: Ah! Got it, thanks
00:22	sids	technomancy: thank you, I'll try to hack something up later today
00:22	technomancy	sids: lemme know if you run into any problems
00:22	technomancy	here or on the lein mailing list
00:23	sids	will do
00:25	lancepantz	MadWombat: http://github.com/lancepantz/lein-war-example
00:25	MadWombat	lancepantz: thanks
00:26	dnolen	how do you pad a vector in clojure again? (1 2) -> (1 2 3 nil nil nil), since count is only 2 and I want 5 elements.
00:27	bmason	technomancy: http://hugoduncan.org/post/2010/swank_clojure_gets_a_break_with_the_local_environment.xhtml
00:27	sexpbot	"Hugo Duncan : Swank Clojure gets a Break with the Local Environment"
00:27	bmason	what version of swank will this be included in?
00:27	technomancy	bmason: it's in 1.2.0-SNAPSHOT, which will become 1.2.0 very soon
00:27	technomancy	(couple days maybe)
00:28	bmason	I'm running snapshots of clojure and clojure-contrib... any reason not to do swank as well?
00:30	technomancy	bmason: not really, it'll make your "lein deps" runs take longer is all.
00:31	dnolen	,(take 5 (concat [1 2] (repeat nil))
00:31	clojurebot	EOF while reading
00:31	dnolen	,(take 5 (concat [1 2] (repeat nil)))
00:31	clojurebot	(1 2 nil nil nil)
00:31	bmason	cool, I'm gonna try it out then
00:31	technomancy	bmason: it's worth it. =)
00:31	technomancy	also I just pushed out xref support
00:31	bmason	yeah, I burned two days trying to troubleshoot a stack trace
00:32	technomancy	so you can say "I want to see all the functions that call partial" and boom; there you go
00:32	bmason	debug tools are definitely welcome
00:32	bmason	nice
00:32	technomancy	(that was all tcrayford)
00:32	bmason	well great job on swank... I use that every day
00:33	technomancy	eh; I don't really do much these days
00:33	technomancy	I'm mostly just the PHB who applies patches and decides when the release is going to happen =)
00:39	danlarkin	xref sweeeeeetness
00:39	bmason	technomancy: how's that open door policy working out?
00:40	technomancy	bmason: better than you'd think
00:40	technomancy	the rubinius project actually gives full commit rights for anyone who has a patch accepted
00:40	technomancy	I'm not quite that gutsy
00:40	bmason	wow
00:41	technomancy	yeah, I could totally just go in and delete half the implementation if I wanted to
00:41	bmason	well Ruby breaks backwards compatibility with every release anyway
00:41	bmason	people are used to it ;)
00:41	technomancy	reverting is cheap, and people respect it when you trust them
00:41	technomancy	heh; that too
00:41	technomancy	danlarkin: try it out! I am excited.
00:42	danlarkin	no more M-x rgrep! well, less
00:42	bmason	how does the xref stuff work?
00:43	bmason	I understand that in terms of XML... not sure what it means for clojure
00:46	technomancy	it's a little fuzzy; it just opens the original .clj file for every var and sees if the source includes the symbol that names the function in question
00:46	technomancy	probably gets a lot of false positives
00:46	technomancy	and is really slow for large projects
00:47	technomancy	it's basically a brute-force search, but it works
00:48	bmason	so it takes you to the place the symbol was def'd?
00:50	technomancy	it takes you to the caller
00:51	bmason	ah right
00:52	bmason	apologies if it's a dumb question, but are there docs on this somewhere?
00:52	bmason	like a way to get recent release notes?
00:52	technomancy	I'll try to put together some when the actual release happens. for now it's just the git log.
00:52	bmason	k
00:52	bmason	what
00:53	bmason	oops
00:53	bmason	what's the syntax for actually using the xpath stuff?
00:53	technomancy	xref, not xpath
00:53	bmason	do you use M-x something?
00:53	technomancy	it's C-c C-w c
00:53	bmason	ah
00:53	technomancy	xref for cross-reference
01:09	ataggart	anyone know where the browse-url function used by c.c.repl-utils is defined? Or how c.c.repl-utils works without declaring a ns?
01:12	MadWombat	is there a way to make lein copy dependency jars from a local directory?
01:12	MadWombat	without doing ugly maven install commands?
01:14	bmason	lein install
01:15	MadWombat	hmm
01:16	bmason	works with clojure projects at least
01:16	bmason	I don't know what you'd do with regular jars that aren't in a repo
01:16	bmason	might be stuck with maven
01:17	lancepantz	i thiink you can manually put them in ~/.m2
01:17	MadWombat	:(
01:18	bmason	yeah it looks like inside my .m2 directory are just jars and poms
01:23	MadWombat	thanks
01:24	technomancy	MadWombat: you need to do mvn install:install-file, but if you just declare the dependency before running mvn install, lein deps will print out the necessary invocation as part of the error message
01:24	MadWombat	technomancy: cool
01:24	MadWombat	is there a way to use ant targets from lein?
01:25	MadWombat	or for that matter define your own lein targets?
01:26	MadWombat	I am trying to setup an environment to play around with GAE and clojure
01:27	MadWombat	but all the ready setups are sort of dated, so I am coming up with my own
02:11	MadWombat	seems like each additional leiningen task requires its own leiningen.* namespace, is this correct?
02:11	lancepantz	yes
02:17	MadWombat	lancepantz: thanks
02:54	MadWombat	how do you add new task to the list leiningen displays as help
02:54	MadWombat	?
03:05	LauJensen	Morning team
03:33	MadWombat	http://blog.mitechki.net/2010/05/12/short-tutorial-on-extending-leiningen/
03:33	sexpbot	"Short tutorial on extending Leiningen « Angry UNIXoid’s Humble Abode"
03:41	tomoj	MadWombat: did you write that?
03:41	MadWombat	yup
03:41	tomoj	thanks a lot, that subject has always been a mystery to me
03:42	tomoj	one strange thing is that you used "namespace" instead of "ns" in the second code block -- intentional?
03:42	tomoj	s/second/third/
03:42	sexpbot	one strange thing is that you used "namespace" instead of "ns" in the third code block -- intentional?
03:42	tomoj	s/third/fourth/
03:42	MadWombat	tomoj: no, I iwll fix in a sec
03:42	sexpbot	s/second/fourth/
03:42	tomoj	it's so simple now that someone has explained it :D
03:43	MadWombat	tomoj: I am still looking for a reliable way to transfer code into wordpress, so I cut-paste and edit manually for now
03:43	Raynes	I love how people always double take when they discover that by accident.
03:43	MadWombat	Raynes: :)
03:44	MadWombat	tomoj: yeah, it was a mystery to me too, up to about 2 hours ago, when I figured I had some time and I might as well read some leiningen source :)
05:31	_exterm	hi everybody
05:32	_exterm	I want to add a method to a class generated by gen-class, but I want to do it at runtime, and I don't know the prefix there
05:32	_exterm	Is there a way to get the prefix from a class?
05:38	spariev	_exterm: you could name your class as you want, like (gen-class :name my.ns.ClassName)
05:49	_exterm	I need the prefix, e.g. (gen-class :name my.ns.ClassName :prefix "foo")
05:49	_exterm	so I can define class methods outside of the gen-class
05:58	LauJensen	_exterm: gen-class is for AOT compilation.
06:08	_exterm	Isn't it possible to add methods add runtime to classes that were generated AOT?
06:17	tomoj	don't the methods really just proxy to clojure fns?
06:18	tomoj	and clojure fns can be added at runtime?
06:23	LauJensen	tomoj: Clojure makes stubs for the classes. You can definitely override after the fact with proxy but Im just sure that you can add w/o using reify or something similar
06:30	SandGorgon	are s-expressions the same as clojure "forms" ?
06:31	Chousuke	I wonder. can s-expressions contain vectors and maps?
06:32	SandGorgon	Chousuke, would'nt that be implementation detail - I can argue that vectors are arbitrarily growable lists . Am I wrong ?
06:32	Chousuke	well, yeah
06:32	Chousuke	but clojure has both lists and vectors appearing in forms
06:33	tomoj	regular old lists aren't arbitrarily growable?
06:34	Chousuke	I suppose the set of all clojure forms it not equal to the set of s-expressions, but a superset
06:37	SandGorgon	Chousuke, ahh
06:38	SandGorgon	tomoj, yes I worded it wrong - for me vectors are as defined by C++ STL
06:44	SandGorgon	I have a question about internals - (def a) creates a var ... when I refer to :somesymbol is it being created ? So, if I do (def pp [:a :b :c]) - is clojure creating references to the symbols ?
06:46	tomoj	,(class :a)
06:46	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Keyword
06:46	tomoj	that Keyword's gotta come from somewhere
06:46	tomoj	or from nowhere, rather
06:47	tomoj	I mean, :aoeuaoeuaoeuaoeuaoeu certainly isn't sitting around in every clojure jvm
06:51	tomoj	not too different from the way 361 isn't sitting around in memory in every jvm, I think
07:18	jfields	do you guys have any favorite blogs that have a fair amount of clojure related content?
07:19	liebke	jfields: http://planet.clojure.in/
07:19	sexpbot	"Planet Clojure"
07:21	jfields	liebke: thanks.
08:37	Hodapp	maybe if I put some Lisp books on my desk at work I'll stop crying when I have to use C++...
08:46	chouser	I have a couple situations where I think I want to write macros that macroexpand their args before returning.
08:46	chouser	Does the desire to do this mean I'm thinking about the problem incorrectly?
08:46	chouser	I've not needed to do this before, so I'm suspicious.
08:47	jfields	chouser: example?
08:47	chouser	it's to apply static typing in a DSL (maybe that's the problem there...)
08:48	chouser	so for example I have a macro lookup: (lookup :foo an-obj)
08:48	chouser	it would expand to something like: #^{:mytype "FooType"} (:foo an-obj)
08:49	chouser	that is it would know at compile time that :foo of an-obj returns something of FooType
08:50	chouser	then I want an equality test that throws at compile time if it knows the types of its args don't match
08:50	chouser	(typed= (lookup :foo an-obj) (lookup :foo other-obj))
08:51	chouser	the knowedge exists at compile-time to verify both lookups will return the same type of object, but I'm failing to think of how to extract/apply that information
08:52	chouser	...except to have typed= macroexpand its args, examine their metadata, throw (or not), and finally emit a regular =
08:57	mabes	hey all, who else is at the clojure training now?
08:58	clojurebot	pcl → clojure is http://blog.thinkrelevance.com/2008/09/16/pcl-clojure
09:02	_fogus_	,Q
09:02	clojurebot	<-nil-<
09:03	jfields	chouser is :foo really a FooType? or are you defining your own "types"?
09:03	chouser	these are probably my own types
09:04	jfields	can you put a type as part of the metadata, and have (typed=) check and compare the metadata?
09:06	chouser	yes, but that requires knowing the (generated) metadata of the args when the outer macro expands. normally the outer macro only has access to the input metadata
09:06	mabes	if you are using defrecrod I think you can use isa?
09:07	Licenser_	,A
09:07	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: A in this context
09:07	chouser	I want to do this type check at compile time, not runtime.
09:07	Licenser_	,Q
09:07	clojurebot	<-nil-<
09:07	Licenser_	why is Q nil with an arrow?
09:07	jfields	chouser: gotcha. I'm definitely not the guy with the answer, I'm sure. But, I thought I'd try to help. :)
09:07	chouser	:-) thanks.
10:11	ArkRost	hi! Tell me please the way I can create thread-local var.
10:13	Plouj	ArkRost: http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html#Vars
10:13	sexpbot	"Object Computing, Inc. - Java News Brief - March 2009"
10:14	stuartsierra	ArkRost: Any (binding ...) of a Var will be thread-local.
10:18	technomancy	Licenser_: it's a fancy/awesome way for printing clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY
10:22	The-Kenny	technomancy: How was this way of printing called? <something>-fish, if I remember correctly
10:25	spariev	,(conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY "°}))>")
10:25	clojurebot	<-("�}))>")-<
10:28	SynrG	cute
10:28	cemerick	I guess I don't get the joke.
10:31	spariev	I wanted it to print smth like <-°}))>-< , but parens and quotes ruined my ascii art :)
10:32	cemerick	No, I see what you were doing there, I just don't know the backstory behind fish ~ queues. shrug
10:33	technomancy	cemerick: in stock clojure queues are visually indistinguishable from lists
10:33	technomancy	nice to spice these up a little
10:34	cemerick	but why fish?
10:34	technomancy	just a visual indicator of which end stuff goes onto and which it comes off of
10:34	technomancy	"queued elements, please step right this way"
10:34	cemerick	oh, head and tail
10:36	technomancy	I think it's just a print-method hack hiredman tossed into clojurebot, dunno if it'll get mainlined.
10:36	_fogus_	it's in JoC though. ;-)
10:36	technomancy	nice
11:11	Licenser_	technomancy: ah thank you!
11:15	LauJensen	stuartsierra: I think http-agent might be broken, since its shadowing core/bytes
11:23	stuartsierra	it's not broken, it just needs a refer-clojure
11:23	stuartsierra	but 'bytes' should probably be renamed
11:25	Licenser_	stuartsierra: I picked up your temp converter post and played around a bit with wrapping the stuff needed for it, interested to have a look?
11:26	stuartsierra	busy right now, but feel free to post
11:27	Licenser_	okay :)
11:31	dsop	is there a downloadable version of the complete clojure api?
11:31	dsop	of the documentation
11:32	dsop	ah got it
11:34	LaPingvino	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/tree/gh-pages
11:34	LaPingvino	great :)
11:35	jfields	what's the feeling on watches? I have some a simple application that gets messages, updates a total and publishes out the new total. I've implemented it by listening for a message, updating the atom and then publishing the new total. I guess I could add a watch to the atom and publish from the watch, but having no experience with watches I wasn't sure if that was a good route.
11:49	Licenser_	$doc writer
11:49	sexpbot	Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo.
11:49	Licenser_	$doc clojure.contrib.duck-streams/writer
11:49	sexpbot	Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo.
11:49	Licenser_	(doc clojure.contrib.duck-streams/writer)
11:49	clojurebot	"([x]); Attempts to coerce its argument into an open java.io.PrintWriter wrapped around a java.io.BufferedWriter. Argument may be an instance of Writer, PrintWriter, BufferedWriter, OutputStream, File, URI, URL, Socket, or String. If argument is a String, it tries to resolve it first as a URI, then as a local file name. URIs with a 'file' protocol are converted to local file names. Should be used inside with-open to ensure
11:55	mabes	jfields: I'm not an expert by any means, but I've used watches before with good success
11:57	hiredman	,(doc writer)
11:57	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.duck-streams/writer;[[x]]; Attempts to coerce its argument into an open java.io.PrintWriter wrapped around a java.io.BufferedWriter. Argument may be an instance of Writer, PrintWriter, BufferedWriter, OutputStream, File, URI, URL, Socket, or String. If argument is a String, it tries to resolve it first as a URI, then as a local file name. URIs with a 'file' protocol are converted to local file names. Shoul
11:59	jfields	mabes: thanks.
12:32	bmason	if I want to do (keys {:a :foo :b :bar}) and (vals {:a :foo :b :bar}) do I need to use a sorted map to ensure the order is the same?
12:43	ataggart	or you could seq the map
12:43	ataggart	that'll give you key/value tuples
12:46	ataggart	or you could get the keys, then build the value seq from the keys seq
12:47	ataggart	or it could very well be that values returns the same order as keys
12:47	ataggart	which would make sense
12:48	wlangstroth	bmason: out of curiosity - what are you trying to do?
12:49	bmason	(defn run-insert "Given a :table and {values}, insert values into table."
12:49	bmason	[table values]
12:49	bmason	(with-connection db
12:49	bmason	(transaction
12:49	bmason	(insert-values table (keys (first values))
12:49	bmason	(map vals values))
12:49	bmason	(last-created-id))))
12:49	bmason	oops :)
12:49	bmason	will use pastie next time...
12:53	chouser	'keys', 'vals', and 'seq' on the same map will all return items in the same order
12:55	replaca	I'm implementing support for PersistentQueue in pprint. Should I do it fish-style?
12:59	replaca	I'm thinking just <-(1 2 3)-<. Anyone care?
12:59	technomancy	replaca: yeah!
12:59	Licenser_	replaca: sounds good
13:00	Licenser_	will (<- 1 2 3) return a new queue?
13:00	replaca	(I don't want extra parens and brackets cause that will throw off anyone navigating the results
13:00	technomancy	unless you can come up with an ascii-art version of this: http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/apashin/arrowed.jpg
13:00	replaca	no, this is just about pprint
13:00	hiredman	,Q
13:00	clojurebot	<-nil-<
13:01	replaca	hiredman: my version would be <-()-<
13:01	clojurebot	hiredman is slightly retarded
13:01	technomancy	if queue-fish gains a widespread community following there will be more pressure for reader support. =)
13:01	Licenser_	heh
13:01	replaca	since there's a seq under there (sort of)
13:01	DuneMan	wants blocking persistent queue
13:02	hiredman	DuneMan: not possible
13:02	replaca	DuneMan: what does that mean? The queue is immmutab;e
13:02	DuneMan	wants it anyway!
13:02	Licenser_	a persistent queue?
13:03	DuneMan	replaca: DETAILS
13:03	Licenser_	DuneMan: you have that it's called list?
13:03	ataggart	is there any chance of getting a literal queue?
13:03	chouser	we have a blocking queue. we have a persistent queue. I don't see how a queue could be both.
13:03	DuneMan	actually what I really want is java's blockingqueue, which I'm using. carry on.
13:04	replaca	DuneMan: but look at fill-queue
13:04	hiredman	why are you missing it?
13:04	hiredman	,java.util.concurrent.LinkedBlockingQueue
13:04	clojurebot	java.util.concurrent.LinkedBlockingQueue
13:04	hiredman	it's right there
13:05	DuneMan	Right, which is why I said "Which I am using"
13:05	DuneMan	I just got to my desk and typed some shit, ignore me.
13:05	hiredman	right
13:05	hiredman	I somehow misread that
13:05	hiredman	as "I'm missing"
13:05	DuneMan	replaca: Yeah, I can see that being handy for some things in the future, but unfortunately not this exact thing.
13:06	DuneMan	I was happy to find fill-queue
13:06	DuneMan	it's that level of abstraction which I think will make me increasingly productive in clojure.
13:06	wlangstroth	bmason: so you know the order, but not necessarily the columns you're entering, and that's why you use insert-values?
13:07	DuneMan	Though I do wish LinkedBlockingQueue could push a buffer of messages with only grabbing the lock once.
13:08	replaca	(pprint (reduce conj e (range 10)))
13:08	replaca	gives:
13:08	replaca	<-(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)-<
13:08	replaca	where e is PersistentQueue/EMPTY
13:09	TakeV	So, with assoc, if the key already exists that I'm passing to the function, then the map that gets returned just has the new value for the key I pass?
13:09	chouser	TakeV: yep
13:09	TakeV	Cool.
13:09	chouser	,(assoc {:a 1} :a 2)
13:09	clojurebot	{:a 2}
13:13	wlangstroth	bmason: (I only ask because the whole process seems more work than simply concatenating a sql string yourself)
13:14	bmason	sorry, got distracted
13:14	bmason	let me read up
13:16	bmason	wlangstroth: is there a more convenient way to insert a map into a table?
13:16	bmason	wlangstroth: I only saw insert-values, which takes vectors
13:18	wlangstroth	bmason: insert-rows takes a vector of the values in order, but I'm assuming you know the order of your columns (insert-rows is just a convenience wrapper around insert-values)
13:21	bmason	wlangstroth: this is for a RESTful API... I have a PUT request coming in, and values will be in the :params map of the Request object... I need to take that map and insert the values into the DB
13:22	wlangstroth	bmason: oh, okay - I wasn't sure why you didn't know the order coming in
13:23	bmason	ah, alright
13:23	bmason	does my approach make sense then?
13:23	wlangstroth	bmason: and you're using ... mysql? and that's why you have to programmatically insert the id, rather than having the database do it?
13:23	bmason	yes
13:23	bmason	I'm considering using clj-record instead
13:23	bmason	will probably do that long term
13:24	bmason	but atm I'm just using clojure.contrib.sql
13:30	wlangstroth	bmason: yeah, I suppose that's how you would have to do it.
13:31	wlangstroth	It was only jarring to me because I'm a database guy, so having the transaction enforced by middleware, etc. looked weird to me
13:35	ataggart	regarding REST, query params really shouldn't be used as a substitute for the body on a PUT
13:36	wlangstroth	bmason: I forgot about clj-record - it looks pretty good - haven't used it yet, but thanks for reminding me
13:37	patrkris	what is the reason that
13:37	patrkris	oops
13:37	bmason	yeah, I've seen how productive the Ruby ORMs are... I'm excited to try out clj-record
13:38	patrkris	what is the (probably very logical reason) that commutes after alter/ref-set are allowed in transactions but not vice versa?
13:39	wlangstroth	ataggart: do people do that?
13:40	ataggart	based on what bmason said, I guess so.
13:40	ataggart	"this is for a RESTful API... I have a PUT request coming in, and values will be in the :params map of the Request object"
13:40	bmason	oh
13:41	bmason	yeah, I'm not particularly clear on where my values will be coming from I suppose
13:41	ataggart	query params are for querying, for narrowing the scope of the response representation
13:41	bmason	I haven't implemented that part yet
13:41	bmason	yeah, I didn't mean to use query params
13:41	ataggart	what lib are you using for the rest stuff?
13:41	bmason	what does the body look like?
13:41	bmason	compojure-rest
13:42	ataggart	the body of a PUt is whatever representation you want and that the server can handle, e.g., a json object, xml, whatever
13:42	bmason	gotcha
13:42	bmason	so I'd then have to parse that... that makes sense
13:42	ataggart	yeah
13:43	ataggart	I have rest framework I worte in java for my company. been meaning to comjureize it
13:43	ataggart	erm
13:43	wlangstroth	oh, haha
13:43	ataggart	clojureize
13:43	bmason	compojurize?
13:43	bmason	:-D
13:43	ataggart	<-- not a good typist
13:43	bmason	Shakespear invented words, we can too
13:44	ataggart	I'll check out compojure-rest
13:44	bmason	*Shakespeare?
13:44	ataggart	see ifI like it
13:44	ataggart	'Twas brillig and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.
13:44	bmason	indeed
13:46	DuneMan	neat, compjure-rest, that will be useful shortly
13:46	DuneMan	This is the most helpful irc channel ever.
13:47	bmason	YES
13:47	DuneMan	and I spent 8 years of my life in #C++/EfNet ;-)
13:47	wlangstroth	oi
13:48	bmason	I'm doing a spike of CRUD operations for a RESTful API... I will probably post it up on github when I'm done to get some feedback and so other people can use it as an example
13:48	ataggart	meh, not a fan of compjoure-rest
13:48	Borkdude	Just wondering, is there a clip function in Clojure that returns n if it is between a and b, a if less than a and b if greater than b?
13:48	ataggart	Ilike my lib better ;)
13:48	Drakeson	is swank-clojure broken since yesterday?
13:48	bmason	ataggart: link?
13:48	ataggart	bmason: none yet. proprietary
13:48	ataggart	will be opening it up shortly
13:48	wlangstroth	ataggart: translating from Java to Clojure can be disconcerting - the result is so much shorter
13:49	bmason	ataggart: send me an email or something, I'd like to check it out when you do
13:49	DuneMan	hah, agreed. the clojure implementation I have of this thing is even shorter than the python
13:49	DuneMan	and does more.
13:49	bmason	:)
13:49	ataggart	the parts I've rewritten in clojure are an order of magnitude more concise
13:50	wlangstroth	I was porting parts of Jetty as a learning exercise, and it turned out that so much of what they were doing was already in the contrib library that I started feeling silly
13:50	bmason	lol
13:50	bmason	that's a great sign
13:51	bmason	that means we could have a really light weight webserver done in clojure
13:51	ataggart	I thought there was one
13:51	ataggart	ring
13:51	ataggart	iirc
13:51	bmason	ring isn't a webserver, is it?
13:51	wlangstroth	ring uses jetty
13:51	clojurebot	the answer is 42
13:51	ataggart	ah
13:51	bmason	yeah
13:51	bmason	and compojure is based on ring
13:52	wlangstroth	and Jetty is ridiculous
13:52	bmason	well... correction would be ring can use jetty
13:52	bmason	it's one option
13:52	wlangstroth	it works, it's awesome, whatever - the code is ridiculous
13:52	ataggart	I'd guess my rest lib would obviate ring. Right now it's built to run on a servlet system.
13:52	wlangstroth	bmason: quite right
13:53	wlangstroth	ring is often used with jetty
13:54	ataggart	defprotocol/deftype/defrecord are making my life a lot easier
13:54	bmason	http://github.com/mmcgrana/ring
13:54	bmason	httpcore (Apache?) is another built in option
13:54	ataggart	I really just wish I didn't hate git as much as I do.
13:55	bmason	and it's probably not difficult to add new adapters
13:55	wlangstroth	ataggart: are you used to something else?
13:55	ataggart	svn, but via the subclipse plugin. haven't had to mess with the commandline for ages.
13:55	ataggart	the lack of tool support / visualization gets to me
13:56	bmason	git clone some repo is pretty easy
13:56	ataggart	yeah
13:56	ataggart	everythign after that is a pain
13:56	DuneMan	lack of visualization?
13:56	DuneMan	GitX, sir.
13:57	ataggart	gitx fails
13:57	wlangstroth	I live in white-on-black - more work done that way (not for everyone, of course)
13:57	ataggart	for example: http://subclipse.tigris.org/servlets/ProjectProcess?pageID=rr1TIx
13:57	sexpbot	"subclipse: Screenshots"
13:57	DuneMan	I also live in a terminal and don't use an IDE for anything
13:57	DuneMan	an IDE is almost necessary for java
13:57	ataggart	it's not the ide that OI care about
13:58	DuneMan	but I never code in java.
13:58	ataggart	it's the lack of a visual diff
13:58	DuneMan	You can use any visual diff tool you want with git
13:58	ataggart	committing a file without first seeing the changes on the server is madness imo
13:58	DuneMan	I use vimdiff, but there are better 3-way diff tools out there
13:58	bmason	how would I take 'vec' and 'keys' and combine them to a single function?
13:58	bmason	would 'partial' work for that?
13:58	wlangstroth	git status?
13:58	ataggart	I've yet to find a tool that provides a visual diff for git that compares to what's available for svn
13:58	technomancy	,((comp vec keys) {:a :b :c :d})
13:58	clojurebot	[:a :c]
13:58	bmason	it doesn't seem quite right...
13:59	bmason	ah comp
13:59	bmason	thank you
13:59	DuneMan	git status; git&fetch && git merge origin/branch
13:59	DuneMan	git diff
13:59	ataggart	clearly you and I have different definitions of "visual diff"
13:59	DuneMan	ataggart: Just pipe the output of git diff to your favorite 3-way diff tool.
13:59	DuneMan	sure, but I don't think that has anything to do with git.
14:00	DuneMan	Git gives you a raw diff, view it in the tool of your choice.
14:00	ataggart	it has to do with the immaturity of the git ecosystem
14:00	wlangstroth	that's an interesting way to say "the pictures aren't pretty enough"
14:00	DuneMan	And the type of people who work on the ecosystem.
14:00	ataggart	it's not just about pictures
14:00	wlangstroth	ataggart: I'm teasing - I know what you mean
14:01	ataggart	the feature set in subclipse is a high bar, which nothing in the git ecosystem even comes close to
14:01	bmason	I agree ataggart
14:01	DuneMan	I mean, I suppose it might be handy if there was a gui tool that had a built in 3-way diff viewer?
14:01	DuneMan	Though I never leave my terminal so I wouldn't use it.
14:02	wlangstroth	right
14:02	ataggart	plus I'm constantly annoyed by the useless multi-step dance one needs to do to update the repo
14:02	DuneMan	git fetch && git merge?
14:02	wlangstroth	which dance?
14:03	DuneMan	I work on stuff that makes heavy use of branching, and in that case there is much less dance than with svn/cvs. So, depends on how you're using things?
14:03	ataggart	I have a file on my system. I change it. I right-click the file and hit "Commit...". One logical step.
14:03	DuneMan	or you can git pull
14:04	DuneMan	Ah, yes, there's your problem
14:04	DuneMan	touching your mouse.
14:04	DuneMan	runs
14:04	ataggart	for git it seems I have to do a half a dozen command line incantations
14:04	DuneMan	you just have to do git commit -m "Message" file.
14:04	ataggart	but that doesn't put it in github
14:04	DuneMan	and then push that branch if you're ready to distribute that branch.
14:05	ataggart	yup, multi-step dance
14:05	DuneMan	Though not a useless one.
14:05	ataggart	in my day we called git's commit "saving a file"
14:05	DuneMan	Very useful
14:05	DuneMan	It's just a matter of being used to a different workflow
14:05	technomancy	ataggart: if you want to combine two distinct steps into one that's easy enough to do with a shell alias
14:05	ataggart	yep, more sutff I need to write and not have avaiable on other machines
14:06	technomancy	what, you don't keep your dotfiles in version control?
14:06	DuneMan	I have all my stuff availablwe on all my machines
14:06	DuneMan	git checkout git@github:pgebheim/config.git
14:06	DuneMan	er, git clone
14:06	ataggart	ha!
14:06	ataggart	see...
14:06	ataggart	bad names
14:06	DuneMan	That I can agree with
14:06	DuneMan	the git command line interface is poorly designed
14:06	ataggart	precisely
14:07	DuneMan	Maybe someone will get around to fixing that at some point
14:07	DuneMan	It was clearly designed as linus added features he needed
14:07	DuneMan	so it has some logic to it, its just not transparent if you're new to it.
14:07	ataggart	from what I've read of the history, it's first goal was to make patching easier
14:07	wlangstroth	oh, I see your objection. Yeah, I've already written short scripts around that
14:08	DuneMan	I almost always want to commit locally
14:08	DuneMan	and NOT push
14:08	DuneMan	I commit locally and do diffs on working sets constantly
14:08	ataggart	yeah, save a file
14:08	ataggart	I do that too
14:08	technomancy	magit makes it easy to forget how bad the git CLI experience is
14:08	DuneMan	No,that's not saving a file.
14:09	wlangstroth	ataggart: you mean you want a daemon to monitor changes on the working branch and commit on each save?
14:09	ataggart	no I mean "commit" in my worldview means "push this change out to the canonical repo"
14:09	maravillas	simply saving a file doesn't keep the local history, whereas committing to your local repo in git does
14:09	ataggart	what git calls "commit" I call "saving a file locally"
14:09	DuneMan	Except it's different
14:09	DuneMan	because you can have vrersioned local saves.
14:09	ataggart	maravillas: that depends entirely on what you're using to edit
14:09	ataggart	eclipse has local history
14:10	maravillas	on a per file basis, right?
14:10	wlangstroth	oh, I see - this is a distributed vs. centralized discussion
14:10	DuneMan	yeah, it is
14:10	DuneMan	just different workflows
14:10	DuneMan	I'm getting used to git's over time, and finding it useful
14:10	DuneMan	:-)
14:10	ataggart	wlangstroth: a distinction without a difference as everyone seems to use github anyway
14:11	Drakeson	technomancy:
14:11	Drakeson	oops!
14:11	technomancy	ataggart: not at all, see http://github.com/technomancy/gitjour
14:11	Drakeson	technomancy: the latest swank-clojure push does not work here
14:12	wlangstroth	ataggart: I dunno - I prefer to commit a bunch, then go over it, and maybe push to github once a day.
14:12	technomancy	Drakeson: the xref merge?
14:12	Drakeson	it nags about not being able to turn PrintStream to StreamWriter or something like that. it points at the fall-back flatten definition in util.clj
14:13	ataggart	wlangstroth: so do I, I just call it saving files a bunch, then go over it, and maybe commit to the repo once a day.
14:13	DuneMan	wlangstroth: Agree. I found that a weird workflow until I started using it.
14:13	technomancy	Drakeson: which Clojure version?
14:13	Drakeson	latest
14:13	technomancy	I'll take a look at it tonight
14:13	DuneMan	I also got used to being able to pull working sets to other machines
14:14	ataggart	in any case, my main problem with git is its ecosystem is less useful ot me than svn's
14:14	DuneMan	and do complex multi-branch merging
14:14	Drakeson	technomancy: thanks
14:14	DuneMan	ataggart: Part of that is just a workflow problem, of course. But yes, there's less developed tools.
14:14	wlangstroth	ataggart: but if you have a bunch of different branches, it's not just saving.
14:15	ataggart	wlangstroth: I have multiple branches on my machine right now. It's not an issue.
14:15	ataggart	I will of course grant that svn's branch/merge feature isn't as nice as git's
14:15	maravillas	and i suspect if you were to want to back out your latest change, which might span multiple files, doing so using your eclipse history wouldn't be a trivial task
14:16	ataggart	but I do that far less than I check-in files, and so not being able to have a nice diff view is more of a liability
14:16	DuneMan	again, git diff > your favorite diff tool
14:16	ataggart	false
14:16	DuneMan	I don't see what the issue is :-)
14:16	ataggart	clearly
14:16	ataggart	use subclipse
14:16	ataggart	you'll see
14:16	wlangstroth	I don't think it's an issue, really. I've adapted to both, but I don't use a gui
14:16	maravillas	i think that's a redirect operator, not a greater than :)
14:17	DuneMan	indeed, maravillas
14:17	ataggart	ah lol
14:17	ataggart	very well then
14:17	DuneMan	hahaha
14:17	DuneMan	reading inline diffs can be really painful
14:17	DuneMan	especially 3-way diffs
14:17	DuneMan	I'm used to it, but wouldn't exactly recommend it
14:18	ataggart	for example: http://subclipse.tigris.org/images/sync-ss.png
14:18	DuneMan	that gui makes me want to cry
14:18	ataggart	bear in mind it's a tiny window to the actually files are too small to be useful
14:18	DuneMan	I loath eclipse.
14:18	ataggart	that gui contains useful info
14:18	wlangstroth	haha - we're definitely arguing gui vs terminal now
14:19	ataggart	the set of all files changed, the directionality of the changes, a diff of a particular file, and the revision history
14:19	DuneMan	yeah, we are. just differing workflows. maybe someone will make a good git gui to accomodate ataggart's
14:19	ataggart	not likely
14:19	wlangstroth	I think it's called gitk
14:19	ataggart	how anyone can commit files to a repo without having all that info in front of them beforehand... I just don't understand
14:19	DuneMan	gitk/gitx are sorta half useful still
14:20	ataggart	no one in my office does a blind commit. everything gets reviewed thru the "synchronize view" so we all can know exactly what's changing
14:20	wlangstroth	ataggart: well, it's all text, so I use a text reader
14:20	ataggart	do you ave a screenshot showing what that looks like for multiple files?
14:21	DuneMan	ataggart: Because you basically get used to checking things in order.
14:21	ataggart	"in order"?
14:21	DuneMan	We also have a custom deployment system
14:21	DuneMan	which keeps track of branches for us.
14:21	ataggart	I'm not talking about branches
14:21	wlangstroth	it looks like diffs - what do you mean?
14:21	ataggart	I'm talking about, I change 5 files, someone else concurrently chnged 5 files, some of those changes overlap
14:22	DuneMan	Oh. That's easy.
14:22	ataggart	what does that diff look lke for you?
14:22	DuneMan	if the push fails, you pull and see what happened.
14:22	ataggart	...
14:22	DuneMan	it looks like git diff.
14:22	DuneMan	git wont push revisions on top of each other that haven't been merged.
14:22	DuneMan	unless you do some really whacky dancing
14:22	DuneMan	with git merge and cherry picking commits
14:22	ataggart	so you trust the merge logic of git to understand how your changes will interact with the changes someone else made?
14:23	DuneMan	no, you pull and do the merge.
14:23	ataggart	but do you ever look at the changes side by side before a merge?
14:23	DuneMan	constantly.
14:23	DuneMan	You have to.
14:23	ataggart	ok, I'm asking what does that look like
14:23	ataggart	in the terminal
14:23	DuneMan	it looks like git difff
14:23	wlangstroth	haha
14:23	fliebel	Can Clojure(or any Java language) run on mobile devices?
14:23	DuneMan	I look at the changes inline.
14:24	wlangstroth	ataggart: it looks like a lot of white text on a black screen
14:24	wlangstroth	I'm thinking you wouldn't like it
14:25	ataggart	perhaps not.
14:25	ataggart	I like not being constrained to 1980s tech
14:25	Drakeson	is there a standard way (i.e., one that can be done programmatically) to find the documentation of a fully-qualified class (e.g. java.io.File)?
14:25	DuneMan	I use vimdiff for side-by-side diff
14:25	DuneMan	if my diff is complicated
14:25	technomancy	ataggart: and yet you're using lisp... =)
14:25	wlangstroth	haha - it's still all text, dude
14:25	DuneMan	and sometimes a 3-way diff tool
14:25	ataggart	not really just text
14:25	ataggart	there's deeper meanign there
14:26	Drakeson	technomancy: removing that flatten def fixes it here.
14:26	fliebel	What are the requirements(Java) for running Clojure?
14:26	technomancy	Drakeson: so it's giving you problems even though it's nested inside a when-not?
14:27	Drakeson	yes.
14:27	stuartsierra	fliebel: Java 1.5
14:27	Borkdude	Am I right when saying that Clojure is closer to Haskell than Scala is to Haskell? I don't want to force a discussion
14:28	fliebel	stuartsierra: I see… so I guess I'll forget about mobile and very mobile devices :D ( http://lejos.sourceforge.net/ )
14:28	sexpbot	"LeJOS, Java for Lego Mindstorms"
14:28	DuneMan	Borkdude: Why do you say that?
14:28	DuneMan	I actually don't know much about scala...
14:28	Borkdude	DuneMan: because of this question: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2820801/yet-another-haskell-vs-scala-question
14:28	sexpbot	"Yet another Haskell vs. Scala question - Stack Overflow"
14:28	wlangstroth	Borkdude: I'd say it just to see the fur fly
14:29	DuneMan	but like... linguistically... a lisp isn't really like haskell.
14:29	Borkdude	He mentions Clojure briefly, but if he feels that Scala feels clunky wrt e.g. partial application, then he definitly should go for Clojure imho
14:30	Borkdude	DuneMan: if you compare the characteristics? immutibility, laziness, pattern matching?
14:31	Borkdude	It was just my feeling, I don't know Haskell and Scala that well, so.
14:31	DuneMan	Type systems seem far more.... ingrained than any of those.
14:31	Dawgmatix	whats a good clojure web framework to look at ?
14:31	fliebel	Dawgmatix: good question, I'm also interested :)
14:32	Borkdude	Dawgmatix: isn't Compojure one?
14:32	fliebel	I think compojure, thats the only one I heard of
14:32	Dawgmatix	okay
14:32	fliebel	Or Spring maybe :)
14:32	Borkdude	DuneMan: I think he's not after a type system, but after a nice language in which he also can use Java stuff
14:33	ober2	compojure is pretty nice. we moved some sinatra stuff over easily
14:33	DuneMan	Then that's a totally different question than "What's more like Haskell"
14:33	Dawgmatix	i am looking to move from django, because I finally feel confident about my clojure skills
14:33	mabes	Dawgmatix: compojure uses a framework called Ring which you can also use independently..
14:33	ober2	very simular
14:33	DuneMan	I've never used Scala :-)
14:33	Dawgmatix	okay mabes
14:35	joshua-choi	I have some questions on how Leiningen works. What version of Clojure does it use, and where is it stored? When I "lein self-install", from what source does it download from?
14:35	joshua-choi	I'm asking this because I'm encountering some problems with Leiningen that I suspect has to do with Clojure 1.2.
14:36	ataggart	by default lein seems to pull down 1.1.0
14:36	ataggart	but if you add a dep to 1.2.0-Master in your project.clj then it will pull that version
14:36	DuneMan	luckily technomancy is here
14:36	ataggart	yeah, ignore me. I'm mostly guessing :)
14:36	DuneMan	but yes, uses 1.1 by default
14:36	joshua-choi	I see, thank you
14:37	joshua-choi	I'm encountering two problems
14:37	technomancy	joshua-choi: leiningen's clojure version is independent of the clojure version your project uses (with the notable exception of the lein repl task in lein 1.1)
14:38	DuneMan	which reminds me I should fix my lein version so lein repl works right
14:38	DuneMan	hah
14:38	joshua-choi	technomancy: I see. I'm encountering two errors in Lein. One is, in a project using Clojure 1.2's snapshot and Autodoc 0.7.1, using "lein autodoc" throws a bunch of errors...
14:39	joshua-choi	But the other is stranger: simply running "lein help" gives similar errors.
14:39	joshua-choi	I've pasted the output: http://gist.github.com/398271
14:39	wlangstroth	Scala is kind of like almost-functional java. F# does a better job on the functional side, it seems
14:40	technomancy	joshua-choi: there are some unresolved issues with autodoc I think. it's tightly coupled to a single clojure version, so I think it might only work with lein 1.2.0-SNAPSHOT (from git) right now.
14:40	technomancy	since it uses the lein version of clojure, not the project's version
14:40	wlangstroth	(Of course, Clojure isn't purely functional, either, but ...)
14:40	joshua-choi	technomancy: "lein help" should not be affected by autodoc, though
14:41	joshua-choi	...as far as I can tell.
14:41	technomancy	joshua-choi: lein help tries to load all lein plugins in order to show their docstrings
14:41	technomancy	but it should be resilient to broken plugins, you're right
14:41	joshua-choi	Ah. That would explain it.
14:42	Dawgmatix	i just heard about leiningen from the above discussion - is it similar to what asdf is in lisp ?
14:42	Dawgmatix	nvm, the github page has a good description :)
14:47	joshua-choi	technomancy: What is the relationship between the Clojure versions of Leiningen and its plugins? Does Leiningen itself currently always use 1.1?
14:47	joshua-choi	Also, is there a Leiningen 1.2.0? I cannot find it on its GitHub website.
14:54	DuneMan	The method described in Hacking doesn't seem to work right
14:54	DuneMan	after I do lein self-install with a stable checkout
14:54	DuneMan	(on the stable branch)
14:54	DuneMan	I try to do lein deps
14:55	DuneMan	and it says "Your Leiningen development checkout is missing its dependencies" etc
14:56	DuneMan	And.... it installed 1.1.0
14:57	DuneMan	tips technomancy?
15:00	technomancy	DuneMan: sounds like you're confusing lein with lein-stable?
15:03	Dawgmatix	does "lein swank" not work with plain slime ?
15:05	dataangel	anyone know where I could find an overview of how to implement a persistent binary tree? I only ask here since clojure is my first exposure to persistent stuff ;p
15:05	dataangel	persistent binary search tree rather
15:12	Winstons55	should the following code work (running off of clojure-1.2.0-master-20100507.230258-69)? I'm getting a compile error complaining about not resolving % in this context on the post condition.
15:12	Winstons55	(defprotocol TestProto
15:12	Winstons55	(simple-func [arg]))
15:12	Winstons55	(deftype TestType [test-val]
15:12	Winstons55	TestProto
15:12	Winstons55	(simple-func [arg]
15:12	Winstons55	{:pre [(= 0 arg)]
15:12	Winstons55	:post [(= 1 %)]}
15:12	Winstons55	1))
15:12	Winstons55	whoa, my bad on the formatting/multi-lines
15:15	stuartsierra	Winstons55: datatype methods don't have all the features of fn
15:16	stuartsierra	which appears to include pre/post conditions
15:16	Winstons55	ah ok, good to know
15:16	Winstons55	thanks!
15:27	raek	dataangel: this article has an example implementation of a persistent binary tree: http://www.infoq.com/articles/in-depth-look-clojure-collections
15:27	sexpbot	"InfoQ: An In-Depth Look at Clojure Collections"
15:29	raek	to bad the formatting messed up the code examples including "<"
15:31	chouser	http://www.developer.com/print.php/3874551 -- same article, but apparently less broken formatting
15:31	sexpbot	"Clojure: Immutability at the Language Level — Developer.com"
15:32	raek	chouser: thanks!
15:33	chouser	quite welcome
15:33	chouser	http://joyofclojure.com/buy -- same article, but longer and more expensive
15:33	sexpbot	"Manning: The Joy of Clojure"
15:33	chouser	:-)
15:33	raek	:)
15:37	raek	hrm, how does this work? it is available as an ebook now, but the physical one comes this fall?
15:37	chouser	right
15:37	chouser	well, parts are available as PDF now
15:38	raek	ah, I see
15:38	chouser	all of it should be available this fall in printed form and in several ebook formats (pdf and epub at least, I think)
15:39	LauJensen	Does anybody know the name of a function which turns all of this %40 into @ and %2F into / and so forth ?
15:40	raek	something like java.net.URLEncoder?
15:40	Dawgmatix	i am one of the people who bought the book as an early release
15:40	Dawgmatix	its pretty fascinating to read the updated pdfs as they are written :)
15:41	LauJensen	raek: java.net.URLDecoder/decode - Thanks, just what I needed
15:45	Borkdude	I am reading it too
16:01	ninjudd	chouser: i heard that you may or may not be working on a pure clojure version of protocol buffers...
16:05	chouser	ninjudd: hm... no, "pure clojure" isn't quite right
16:07	ninjudd	chouser: oh, have you looked at my implementation? http://github.com/ninjudd/clojure-protobuf
16:08	ninjudd	basically just a clojure wrapper around the official google java implementation
16:08	DuneMan	seems reasonable
16:08	chouser	ninjudd: yes, I believe I glanced through your code a while ago
16:10	chouser	I hadn't seen your set/map extensions. Those look neat
16:10	chouser	though it suggests we may have different usage profiles in mind. Not surprising, I suppose.
16:10	ninjudd	chouser: i've thought about rewriting PersistentProtocolBufferMap using deftype, but i don't want to duplicate work you may or may not be doing
16:11	ninjudd	chouser: how so?
16:11	DuneMan	technomancy: lein-stable is just bin/lein of the stable branch, no?
16:12	DuneMan	because the "Hacking" section refers to lein-stable, but nothing else does
16:12	chouser	I'm using protobufs defined by others for contexts other than clojure, just providing clojure interop with them. So I have no need for such extensions.
16:13	ninjudd	i see. makes sense. though the extensions are still usable by someone outside of clojure
16:13	chouser	sure
16:13	ninjudd	they just appear as repeated fields
16:13	chouser	oh, I see.
16:13	ninjudd	though a protobuf implementation in another language could choose to read the metadata and make them sets or maps
16:14	chouser	well, you shouldn't worry about duplicating effort. I'm not at liberty to opensource this code at the moment.
16:14	ninjudd	ah, i see
16:15	chouser	I'm pushing for it and management is open to the idea, but has more pressing priorities...
16:16	ninjudd	chouser: did you implement it the same way? by wrapping the google implementation?
16:16	chouser	yes, the version that works today wraps generated Message objects
16:16	ninjudd	or did you write your own implementation from scratch?
16:16	ninjudd	i see
16:18	ninjudd	ok well, i'll let you know if i get around to rewriting it to use deftype
16:19	chouser	mine doesn't have any .java code
16:19	ninjudd	other than the google code
16:19	chouser	right. I mean I managed to avoid writing any .java code. :-)
16:20	ninjudd	do you use deftype? or gen-class/proxy
16:21	chouser	it generates code (at compile time if it can, or runtime if necessary) so that (:field msg) is a straight call the java accessor generated by protoc
16:21	DuneMan	technomancy: I mean, I symlinked leingingen/bin/lein to lein-stable, but apparently that's not the way to go
16:21	chouser	the generated message-wrappers implement IKeywordLookup to tie into clojure's call-site caching
16:21	ninjudd	nice, so yours is probably faster
16:22	chouser	I haven't done much benchmarking -- I mostly wanted to make sure the API was such that it could be made fast if needed
16:22	chouser	and it gave me an excuse to play with IKeywordLookup
16:22	ninjudd	well i use DynamicMessage rather than the generated message classes, so i assume there is some cost to that
16:22	ninjudd	i'm not familiar with IKeywordLookup
16:23	chouser	yeah, it's not really documented. hence the fun in playing with it ;-)
16:23	DuneMan	technomancy: And the lein script linked to from the website installs 1.1.0 in ~/.m2/repository/leiningen
16:24	ninjudd	chouser: looking at the clojure code now... so it is part of deftype?
16:24	chouser	I think it only makes sense for when you're trying to expose a statically-typed thing (like a defrecord or protobuf) to Clojure
16:24	chouser	ninjudd: yeah, it's how defrecord field lookups can be as fast as a direct java field lookup
16:25	DuneMan	technomancy: So... I don't understand what I'm supposed to be doing differently.
16:25	chouser	(:foo thing) as fast as (.foo #^Thing thing)
16:25	DuneMan	oh, I bet I have to build the jar
16:25	DuneMan	duh
16:25	chouser	note it's just as fast even though no type hint, which is rhickey just showing off.
16:26	ataggart	lol
16:26	ninjudd	i see.. hehe
16:26	ataggart	I'm hearing praise from a co-worker in at the clojure thing in NC
16:26	ninjudd	chouser: i may look into doing it this way (if you don't mind). the serialization/deserialization speed is very important for our application
16:27	chouser	ninjudd: I don't mind. I wish I could share my code. :-/
16:27	ninjudd	me too!
16:27	chouser	for what it's worth, after I got all that working I realized we'd sometimes need to deal with dynamic messages
16:28	ninjudd	hmm
16:28	chouser	that is, we have a DescriptorProtos$DescriptorProto, but no generated java code for this particular message.
16:28	ninjudd	well i'd be really interested in a speed comparison between mine and yours if you get the time
16:28	chouser	we likely have the DescriptorProto at compile-time for any piece of clojure code using it, but not at java compile time.
16:29	chouser	so I've started reworking my code to provide an API as close as I can to what we are currently using, but to allow for these dynamic messages.
16:29	chouser	ninjudd: hm, yeah I should do that.
16:29	chouser	yay microbenchmarks. heh.
16:31	ninjudd	well, i'm sure yours will be faster, but it's hard to know how much
16:31	ninjudd	depends on the size of the messages and number of fields etc though
16:31	chouser	I'm sure
16:31	chouser	and how many reads per write, stuff like that.
16:33	ninjudd	i have a benchmark for our use case, but i'm trying to judge whether the work would be worth the increase
16:33	ninjudd	would be a good learning experience though
16:34	chouser	if you want to send me something I could run and then tweak to use our lib instead, I could do that and send you both sets of numbers.
16:34	ninjudd	thanks
16:36	ninjudd	there is some proprietary code in the benchmark, but i may be able to come up with a reasonable benchmark that doesn't have it
16:37	chouser	ok
16:37	ninjudd	i'm benchmarking our application code that depends on jiraph which depends on protobufs
16:37	ninjudd	i should probably write a direct benchmark for jiraph anyway
16:47	technomancy	DuneMan: lein-stable doesn't belong in a checkout at all. just wget the script directly.
16:48	technomancy	DuneMan: it can tell if it's running from a checkout or not. if it is, it assumes it's a dev version
16:48	DuneMan	I had just not done a lein-stable jar in my checkout
16:49	DuneMan	so it obviusly wasn't findind the jar
16:49	DuneMan	because I was a tard.
16:50	technomancy	I guess that might work too, but it's not what I meant
16:50	DuneMan	I basically just misread what the hacking section was telling ,me.
16:50	DuneMan	Because I didn't run lein-stable deps (lein-stable jar, of course, does this)
16:50	DuneMan	in my leiningen checkout
16:50	DuneMan	I was running it in my project
17:12	ska2342	Hi. Maybe this is a stupid question to ask, but... has there been a discussion yet on nth vs. get, especially when it comes to lists?
17:23	chouser	get is always fast (that is O(log n) or faster). nth is sometimes not always (sometimes O(n))
17:26	ska2342	get falls back on nth, but only for types where it can keep its performance guarantee, as far as I can see. Granted. However, I have a bad feeling having two functions doing almost the same (and actually the same sometimes) just for the performance guarantee. In addition to that: get silently returns nil for lists where nth raises an exception for maps. (The topic is related to the contains?-discussion, but I'd like to focus on lists this ti
17:28	ataggart	get is used when you have a "key" (loosely defined)
17:28	ataggart	,(get 1 '(:foo :bar))
17:28	clojurebot	nil
17:28	ataggart	erm
17:28	ataggart	,(get '(:foo :bar) 1)
17:28	clojurebot	nil
17:28	DeusExPikachu	in the documentation for defprotocol, shouldn't the method definitions in the deftype example include a first argument for this? I'm getting errors in the repl copypasting this code http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/defprotocol
17:29	ska2342	ataggart: I know :-), but e.g. for strings it falls back to nth
17:29	ataggart	ska2342: that's probably because strings have "keys"
17:30	ataggart	i.e. the index of the char in the array
17:30	DeusExPikachu	note that in http://clojure.org/protocols, the 'this' field is supplied with the name 'x'
17:30	DeusExPikachu	for deftype
17:31	ataggart	don't worry about implementation. get is for ~O(1) access by keys. nth gets the nth element which may end up being ~O(1) or O(n)
17:31	ataggart	use the function that logically applies
17:32	ska2342	ataggart: yes, I can see that. I think I understood the implementation. I question the fact that two fn exists for basically the same thing (acessing elements of a collection) seemingly just for the performance guarantee. And that for lists get quietly return nil every time
17:32	ska2342	is the performance guarantee part of a function or a datastructure?
17:33	ataggart	both
17:34	ataggart	nth and get are different
17:34	ataggart	for example:
17:34	ataggart	,(nth {:a :b, :c :d} 1)
17:34	clojurebot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: PersistentArrayMap
17:35	ska2342	,(get '(1 2 3) 0)
17:35	clojurebot	nil
17:35	ataggart	,(nth (seq {:a :b, :c :d}) 1)
17:35	clojurebot	[:c :d]
17:35	AWizzArd	They are different, but is such a difference required?
17:36	AWizzArd	As I see it, the point of ska2342 is: for lists nth and get could be the same
17:36	ataggart	yes because the performance characteristics for different datastructures are different
17:36	ska2342	,(get '(1 2 3) nil)
17:36	clojurebot	nil
17:36	ataggart	get on lists would not be ~O(1)
17:36	AWizzArd	ataggart: O(n) for nth for lists
17:36	AWizzArd	so, no nth for lists then?
17:36	ska2342	,(get '(1 2 3) :whatever)
17:36	clojurebot	nil
17:36	ataggart	nth works on sequential structures
17:36	ataggart	get works on associative structures
17:36	ataggart	they're different
17:37	ataggart	only you can know which structures you're working with
17:37	AWizzArd	,(get '[10 20 30 40] 2)
17:37	clojurebot	30
17:37	AWizzArd	,(get '(10 20 30 40) 2)
17:37	clojurebot	nil
17:37	ataggart	and you don't need to quote vectors
17:37	AWizzArd	I know.
17:37	ska2342	what about raising an exception if you pass a sequential thing to get?
17:37	ataggart	k :)
17:37	AWizzArd	that would not be a good thing
17:38	AWizzArd	It was part of rhickeys descisions to return nil instead of throwing exceptions
17:38	ataggart	if you need to check for that case (instead of relying on nil) then use contains?
17:38	AWizzArd	so you don't have to scatter your code everywhere with (try (get ..) (catch Exception e nil))
17:38	ska2342	AWizzArd: like nth for associatives? ;-P
17:39	ataggart	might be an oversight
17:39	AWizzArd	nth on maps is one thing, it could be discussed, but well, for get the situation is different. I don't see why get can not be like nth on lists
17:39	ska2342	ataggart: contains? quietly returns nil for lists, every time. I this time it could get the result in O(1) just like it does for vectors
17:40	ataggart	AWizzArd: because get is contractually fast. You cannot be fast on lists.
17:40	ataggart	ska2342: nil == false in that context
17:40	AWizzArd	Is there an argument why get should be contractually fast?
17:40	ska2342	I am not a language desinger (IANALD? ;-) but this is fishy
17:41	AWizzArd	Maybe usabilty could come before efficiency here
17:41	ska2342	ataggart: don't ever try to argue with a newcomer to lisp-likes about nil not being false anytime :)
17:42	mmarczyk	AWizzArd: there might be a general argument to support the notion that any core library function performing basic data structure manipulation duties should have its performance guarantees included in its contract
17:42	ataggart	since get returns nil for structures where get is not ~O(1), if you're worried about whether that nil is the "not able" nil, or the "here's the value, which happens to be nil" nil, then use contains?
17:43	mmarczyk	only contains? happens to be the predicate counterpart of get :-)
17:43	ataggart	AWizzArd: that's a great way for people to write slow code and blame the new language. Pick your datastructures with forethought instead.
17:43	ska2342	ataggart: but (as I said) contains? does the same thing as get with lists
17:43	mmarczyk	,(contains? '(1 2 3) 1)
17:43	clojurebot	false
17:43	mmarczyk	,(contains? [1 2 3] 1)
17:43	clojurebot	true
17:43	mmarczyk	,(contains? [1 2 3] 3)
17:43	clojurebot	false
17:44	ataggart	the question being answered by contains? is "is it meaningful to use get"
17:44	mmarczyk	,[(get [1 2 3] 1) (get [1 2 3] 3)]
17:44	clojurebot	[2 nil]
17:44	AWizzArd	ataggart: how would get be slower than nth?
17:44	mmarczyk	ataggart: ah, I see the point you're making now
17:44	ska2342	please don't get into the old contains? checks for index discussion now...
17:44	ataggart	I'm conveying what I understand to be Rich's POV
17:44	ataggart	not my own
17:44	AWizzArd	newcomer wants to get element 5000 out of a list. (get elements 5000) ==> slow, so Clojure must be blamed?
17:45	mmarczyk	ska2342: not getting into any discussion on this, just point out the current state of afairs
17:45	ska2342	ataggart: perfectly fine, I try to understand it :-)
17:46	mmarczyk	AWizzArd: well hopefully people no better than to expect less than O(n) from linked list lookup :-)
17:46	mmarczyk	know better
17:46	mmarczyk	but still, if it is a totally different operation to, say, vector lookup by index
17:47	mmarczyk	why overload a single function with both tasks
17:47	ska2342	mmarczyk: that's one of my points. If I feed a list to the element-getter-function, I know the penalty. I don't really see the reason for having both
17:47	ataggart	if you want the nth item, use nth
17:47	ataggart	if you want to lookup by key, use get
17:47	mmarczyk	what ataggart said :-)
17:47	ataggart	it's not hard
17:48	mmarczyk	it's conceivable that we could have just one name in core for both things
17:48	ataggart	btw, regarding the need for contains?...
17:48	ataggart	,(get '(:a :b) 1)
17:48	mmarczyk	I don't see how that would be helpful in anything
17:48	clojurebot	nil
17:48	AWizzArd	well, a list is also a mapping, from its position (key) to the element that is referenced there (val)
17:48	ataggart	,(get [:a nil :b] 1)
17:48	clojurebot	nil
17:48	ska2342	mmarczyk: overloading because then I can change the type later easily. Me, coming from lisp not java, likes to do experiments with lists. And I hated the changes I had to do in CL when I changed the implementation
17:48	mmarczyk	AWizzArd: not at all
17:48	ataggart	AWizzArd: incorrect
17:48	mmarczyk	ska2342: a-ha! you see, there's the point of "having both" for you :-)
17:49	mmarczyk	ska2342: to force you out of your "listy" comfort zone into using the could-be-correct data structures from the get-go
17:49	mmarczyk	which is perfectly easy to do in Clojure, since you've got first class vectors, on par with lists, functionally "updatable"
17:49	ska2342	mmarczyk: sorry, I don't get that. Could you please elaborate?
17:50	mmarczyk	ska2342: there's no point at all, in Clojure, to experimenting with lists first
17:50	mmarczyk	when a vector is actually the better data structure
17:50	mmarczyk	because you gain nothing in syntactic convenience or "natural feel" of your programme
17:50	AWizzArd	if lists can be used to implement maps, then they offer semantically the same, so, yes, lists are mappings
17:50	mmarczyk	that's in contrast to Scheme / CL where lists are obviously the only first class citizens
17:50	AWizzArd	you can implement classes and maps with lists, and vice versa
17:50	ska2342	mmarzyk: Point taken. And I already adapted my habits. It's just the remembrance of things that makes me shudder
17:51	ataggart	AWizzArd: maps are not implemented with lists
17:51	mmarczyk	well, lists and very similar abstractions like Scheme's streams
17:51	AWizzArd	I know, of course they are not
17:51	AWizzArd	for sake of efficiency
17:51	AWizzArd	but conceptually they can express the same thing
17:51	ataggart	and efficiency is the entire point of the get function
17:51	AWizzArd	from turing point of view
17:51	ska2342	It feels like in Clojure lists are only created for containing code.
17:51	mmarczyk	ska2342: yeah, I actually find I miss nice vector support in Scheme nowadays :-)
17:52	AWizzArd	I would say that the point of get is to get the value behind the key
17:52	ataggart	ska2342: bingo!
17:52	AWizzArd	with the best performance possible
17:52	ataggart	"key" has no meaning for lists
17:53	AWizzArd	it has the same meaning as it has for vectors or maps
17:53	ataggart	except the synthetic one you impute by position
17:53	ataggart	false
17:53	mmarczyk	ska2342: actual lists / conses, yeah, but list-like seqs are used all over the place
17:53	AWizzArd	ataggart: can you explain it?
17:53	ataggart	apparently not
17:53	AWizzArd	(:
17:53	mmarczyk	:-)
17:53	ska2342	mmarzyk: seqs are a different beast. But get just returns nil for them, too ,-)
17:54	hiredman	~ping
17:54	clojurebot	PONG!
17:54	ataggart	but to back up, certain functions are provided precisely for their performance characteristics.
17:54	ataggart	get os one of those functions
17:54	mmarczyk	ska2342: for the same reasons as with lists :-)
17:55	chouser	one could try to implement all abstractions on all concrete types: use lists as maps and sets, maps as lists and vectors, etc.
17:55	AWizzArd	I don't mind having two fns, get and nth. Though in the end it would be totally acceptable to only have a "get" which works as efficient as possible on its specific type.
17:55	ska2342	ataggart: that kinda feels wrong for me, since I happen to think Big-O when I think about datastructures, not functions. I still hold my point with the exception
17:55	chouser	things would "just work" but with less clear performance profiles.
17:55	AWizzArd	chouser: yes, this is possible
17:55	AWizzArd	exactly
17:55	chouser	but that language is not Clojure
17:56	AWizzArd	yes, this is more in the category of turing completness
17:56	ataggart	what does turing completeness have to do with any of this?
17:56	AWizzArd	in principle lists would be enough to do calculations, numbers are not needed
17:57	ataggart	sure, and the performance profile would be crap. Still not clear on what this has to do with TC
17:57	AWizzArd	the magic word here is "category"
17:57	ska2342	chouser: then, why have lists at all? Because Clojure is a lisp? Just for code?
17:58	ataggart	ska2342: you use them in macros
17:58	chouser	lists are useful
17:58	Borkdude	ska2342: I asked that question one time, then I came up with a GW-Basic version of Clojure where you can do goto to step into the nth instruction
17:58	chouser	if you want to pop and seq in the same direction, for example
17:59	ska2342	wouldn't anything implementing Sequential suffice?
17:59	mmarczyk	lists are basically finite sequences
17:59	mmarczyk	if you're going to have lazy, potentially infinite seqs
17:59	mmarczyk	it makes sense to allow for the finite case to
17:59	ska2342	Oh, sorry, the interface Sequential seems to be empty here
18:00	Borkdude	maybe you can say that lists are literal seqs in Clojure?
18:00	raek	also, lists can be partially garbage collected
18:00	mmarczyk	and as chouser points out, LIFOs "are" lists (are naturally implemented as)
18:01	mmarczyk	raek: anything that has parts can be partially garbage collected
18:01	mmarczyk	raek: for lists, you have to lose the head for that to happen, for vectors -- the trie root, which happens all the time
18:01	AWizzArd	btw, as vectors are tries under the hood, is conj as efficient for vectors as it is for lists?
18:02	mmarczyk	conj is the one op which is implemented for all Clojure data structures
18:02	mmarczyk	and is efficient across the board
18:02	raek	don't vector seqs have a reference to the trie root?
18:02	ataggart	but, they do have slightly different chartacteristics
18:02	mmarczyk	but it does different things: cons for lists, push-at-tail for vectors
18:02	AWizzArd	ataggart: yes, this is what i would intuitively thing
18:02	AWizzArd	i am going to try this now :)
18:03	raek	(drop 999 (seq 1000-element-vector))
18:03	ataggart	O(1) vs O(log32n)
18:03	mmarczyk	raek: ah, possibly
18:03	ataggart	close enough
18:03	raek	won't that retain all the elements?
18:04	ataggart	raek: nope, nothign holds the head
18:04	ataggart	of the 100-element-vector
18:04	mmarczyk	raek: but if you do (assoc [...] ix :foo), the old version of the vector might be garbage collected
18:04	mmarczyk	raek: so there's partial GC for you
18:04	AWizzArd	,(time (dotimes [i 1000000] (conj [] 10)))
18:04	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 226.984 msecs"
18:04	Borkdude	maybe it would be nice to include some big-O information as metadata and some functions that can deduce how your functions will perform... just thinking aloud
18:04	AWizzArd	,(time (dotimes [i 1000000] (conj () 10)))
18:04	arohner	if 1000-element-vector is a local or var, doesn't that hold head?
18:04	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 148.905 msecs"
18:04	ataggart	try not to kill clojurebot
18:04	ataggart	:)
18:04	mmarczyk	Borkdude: wow, this is really cool :-)
18:04	AWizzArd	the bot is pretty well secured by now
18:05	mmarczyk	ataggart: on the contrary, we should all endeavour to kill clojurebot so that clj-sandbox might be improved :-)
18:05	AWizzArd	now Licenser should step in :)
18:05	mmarczyk	or is this one not based on clj-sandbox, I forget... state-of-the-art in Clojure sandboxing, anyway
18:07	Borkdude	mmarczyk: don't know if it's possible though
18:07	Borkdude	just an interesting thought
18:08	mmarczyk	Borkdude: well, I suppose a general big-O calculator would be impossible, as it would have to determine stuff like no. of iterations per element etc.
18:08	mmarczyk	Borkdude: but having an extra piece of meta data would be cool :-)
18:08	mmarczyk	{:big-O "n"} for O(n)? :-)
18:09	ataggart	big-O's usefulness is often overstated
18:09	Borkdude	For example, or maybe :big-O {:get "1" :nth "n"}
18:09	ataggart	case in point:
18:09	ataggart	,(type {:foo :bar})
18:09	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
18:10	ska2342	the meta-tag would need a better name, though. :landau ? ;-)
18:10	arkahn	for the following ;;; (defn read-a-file [#^String f] (with-open [#^BufferedReader r (FileReader. f)] (.r readline))) ;;; does the #^String help or is it unnecessary?
18:10	ataggart	take it away and call (set! warn-on-reflection true)
18:10	mmarczyk	ska2342: yeah :-)
18:10	ataggart	clojure will tell you
18:10	ataggart	premature type-hinting is...
18:11	arkahn	started, the noob-clojure programming has ... : (
18:11	arkahn	: )
18:12	mmarczyk	ataggart: I'm not sure if this perfectly valid point has any bearing on whether big-O is useful :-)
18:12	Fare	does clojure run on Android?
18:12	lancepantz	Fare: yes
18:12	Fare	yay.
18:12	ataggart	clojure run where java runs (more or less)
18:12	mmarczyk	Fare: I remember reading an entry on some blog describing how to set up a repl for use on an android phone :-)
18:13	Fare	(yes, but Android has its own set of Java libraries, so I was wondering)
18:45	arkahn	should 'when' be avoided if side-effects are not being introduced
18:46	Fare	use and ?
18:46	arkahn	Fare: I'm sorry - I'm not sure what you mean
18:47	arkahn	Fare: use a pred?
18:48	raek	'when' is useful whenever you would put nil in the false branch of an if
18:48	tomoj	,(if nil 3)
18:48	clojurebot	nil
18:48	tomoj	guess it's just a better name than 'if' for this case
18:48	raek	hrm, yes
18:49	arkahn	ok ... so side effects are not required in a stylistic sense
18:49	tomoj	wait, huh?
18:49	tomoj	people use side-effects with when?
18:49	raek	(when pred do-a do-b do-c)
18:49	arkahn	I was reading that using 'do' suggests that "side effects follow" and 'when' is an if + do
18:49	technomancy	yes, that's why "when" has an implicit "do"
18:50	technomancy	arkahn: that's quite right.
18:50	tomoj	oh, weird, I never got that
18:50	arkahn	cool - thanks all
18:50	tomoj	I always just used it to replace an if with no else
18:50	arkahn	I read it's used then, too, but apparently only when you want to introduce side effects (?)
18:51	arkahn	not enforced by clojure, but programming style
18:55	chouser	no, 'when' is fine in pure code for "ifs" with no "elses"
18:57	arkahn	chouser: Programming Clojure (p. 48) suggests what technomancy said, but that's the only authoritative source I have to go off of
19:00	arkahn	chouser: at least, it refers to 'do' in that example, so does that implicitly apply to 'when' when it's just an 'if ? do-a do-b do-c'? I'm just learning ; )
19:01	arkahn	I feel like I'm learning basketball and all I've done so far is learn dribbling a basic passing o.0
19:08	arkahn	fwiw, I checked Joy of Clojure and they don't use 'when' only for forms including side effects. Clojure is my first lisp; is 'if' so gimpy because of lisp heritage, so 'when' was created? 'if' doesn't seem like it would be commonly used.
19:09	Chousuke	hm?
19:09	Chousuke	when is just a convenient form for an if that has no else-clause
19:10	Chousuke	the syntax for is is (if pred then else) whereas when is (when pred then-expr*)
19:11	Chousuke	it also conveys the intent better
19:11	arohner	arkahn: 'when' is also useful as a hint to the reader that there should be no else clause
19:11	arohner	as opposed to (if p true-clause)
19:12	arkahn	ok - thank you
19:17	tomoj	why does if seem like it would be uncommon?
19:17	tomoj	it's quite common
19:19	ataggart	perhaps he's asking because if isn't in the api?
19:19	arkahn	most of the code I've read doesn't use it but that's not saying much - what I said really doesn't make sense, including the "gimpy" label
19:19	arkahn	all this has been helpful to think over though
19:28	DuneMan	one thing is that the normal places that you see lots of if/elses in imperative code get shoved into things like (filter...) in clojure. There tends to be somewhat less boiler-plate conditional checking construction.
19:31	DuneMan	neither am I.
19:31	DuneMan	but I do like how "when" reads.
19:36	maxhodak	no matter what i do amap always throws java.lang.IllegalArgumentException on me
19:40	defn	Could someone explain the whole Q thing?
19:40	defn	,Q
19:40	clojurebot	<-nil-<
19:40	defn	,`Q
19:40	clojurebot	sandbox/Q
19:40	defn	,``Q
19:40	clojurebot	(quote sandbox/Q)
19:41	arkahn	it's shorthand for clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY I think, but I've only seen it used with clojurebot and/or sexpbot
19:42	ataggart	(conj 5 Q)
19:42	ataggart	,(conj 5 Q)
19:42	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection
19:42	ataggart	,(conj Q 5)
19:42	clojurebot	<-(5)-<
19:43	ataggart	interesting
19:43	ataggart	,(pop *1)
19:43	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var clojure.core/*1 is unbound.
19:44	tomoj	what about the whole <-*-< thing?
19:45	tomoj	is that how PersistentQueues print now?
19:45	arkahn	that's bot specific because I haven't seen that at the repl when using those
19:46	arkahn	it makes me think they're there to show where elements enter and exit the queue
19:49	arkahn	I was looking at a way to share data between two threads and at first thought I wanted to use clojure.lang.PersistentQueue but am now thinking agents might be more idiomatic ... and hoping I don't take a performance hit for agents over PersistantQueue
19:52	ninjudd	,(class Q)
19:52	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentQueue
19:53	tomoj	arkahn: I don't think the choice is between PersistentQueue and agents
19:54	tomoj	if you use a PersistentQueue, don't you need a reference type anyway?
19:54	arkahn	yes
19:56	ninjudd	that reminds me, i have a patch i need to submit to make PersistentQueue count O(1)
19:56	arkahn	I was thinking of it as a way to pass data: a thread could stuff it in a shared data structure or could send-off messages to an agent which ends up being a fifo-style anyway
19:56	ninjudd	right now, if you call count, it iterates through the list portion of the queue to count it
19:58	ninjudd	arkahn: all persistent data structures are a way to share data
20:00	ninjudd	you still need a time construct to modify a persistent queue... a ref or an agent or an atom
20:01	ninjudd	if you want another thread to see the change
20:02	DuneMan	arkahn: SynchronousBlockingQueue can actually make more sense for that use case
20:03	DuneMan	but it depends on what you're doing
20:03	DuneMan	If you're just doing like... spin up a bunch of threads and process messages on them
20:03	DuneMan	then just use agents
20:03	DuneMan	'cause that's what they are.
20:03	arkahn	I guess I was going to use the PersistentQueue or agent (scalar? just passing strings) for raw data to communicate between the threads and another data structure for parsed data
20:04	DuneMan	Atom + watchers
20:04	DuneMan	or a SynchronousBlockingQueue
20:05	DuneMan	depending on what behavior you need.
20:05	arkahn	For my first clojure program, I wanted to write something that tailed a log file and then parsed the data, perhaps in two threads but I was still debating that "design". Just starting out with clojure.
20:05	DuneMan	take a look at fill-queue
20:05	arkahn	ok
20:06	ninjudd	arkahn: PersistentQueue and agent are two different types of things. PersistentQueue is a data structure whereas agents are a mechanism for changing a reference in a thread-safe way
20:06	ninjudd	the reference could be to a PersistentQueue
20:07	arkahn	ninjudd: yes - I didn't mean to confuse the two ... I should finish up some code and show that - it'd be easier for me to explain ; )
20:07	ninjudd	ok :)
20:07	tomoj	are there any good examples of fill-queue out there?
20:08	tomoj	I believe I understand how it works, but that I don't really get it
20:32	mmarczyk	tomoj: clojure.contrib.lazy-seq uses it
20:33	tomoj	thanks
20:34	mmarczyk	aaaa, wait, wrong lib
20:34	mmarczyk	I meant c.c.lazy-xml
20:34	mmarczyk	in parse-seq
20:35	Raynes	Michael Kohl alerted me a little while ago to the fact that someone is considering presenting an IRC bot based on Irclj at a functional programming user group this Monday. :>
20:35	Raynes	This makes me a happy Rayne.
20:35	mmarczyk	Raynes: cool :-)
20:54	alexyk	given two maps with keys which are integers, what's the cutest way to get the merged deduped list of keys in sorted order?
20:54	alexyk	don't need values here, just the keys
20:55	alexyk	I guess adding them to sorted set?
20:56	alexyk	forgot, how do add things to a set?...
20:56	alexyk	.(sorted-set 1 2 3)
20:56	alexyk	,(sorted-set 1 2 3)
20:56	clojurebot	#{1 2 3}
20:57	alexyk	now how do we add 4?
20:58	ninjudd	,(keys (merge (sorted-map) {2 3 7 6} {19 2 1 3}))
20:58	clojurebot	(1 2 7 19)
20:58	alexyk	ninjudd: no merge before keys!
20:59	alexyk	maps are huge, think graphs :)
20:59	rdsr	Hi all, can I define a let within the bindings of for
20:59	rdsr	?
20:59	mmarczyk	,(reduce into [(sorted-set) (keys {2 3 7 6}) (keys {19 2 1 3})])
20:59	clojurebot	#{1 2 7 19}
21:00	rdsr	something like this (for [i ... j ... :let n (* i j)] ...
21:00	mmarczyk	rdsr: :let [n (* i j)]
21:01	alexyk	mmarczyk: warmer, can we tuck both keys into a map to operate on a list of maps?
21:01	ninjudd	mmarczyk: nice
21:01	alexyk	i.e. say keys once :)
21:01	mmarczyk	sure
21:01	alexyk	ok :)
21:01	mmarczyk	,(reduce into (cons (sorted-set) (map keys [{2 3 7 6} {19 2 1 3}])))
21:01	clojurebot	#{1 2 7 19}
21:01	alexyk	yay!
21:01	mmarczyk	:-)
21:02	alexyk	how about we do (apply sorted-set (concat...)) instead?
21:02	alexyk	then the set will be sorted at creation time
21:02	mmarczyk	um, nope, try it
21:03	mmarczyk	also, the set is sorted at creation time
21:03	mmarczyk	of course it's also empty :-)
21:03	ninjudd	,(apply sorted-set (mapcat keys [{2 3 7 6} {19 2 1 3}]))
21:03	clojurebot	#{1 2 7 19}
21:03	mmarczyk	ah yes, mapcat helps :-)
21:04	DuneMan	enjoys watching these types of discussions
21:04	MadWombat	Hello
21:04	mmarczyk	but anyway, it's the same thing
21:04	mmarczyk	with the sorted set being built incrementally by a Java loop
21:04	mmarczyk	who knows, maybe that's a bit faster :-)
21:05	alexyk	,(apply sorted-set (apply concat (map keys [{2 3 7 6} {19 2 1 3}])))
21:05	clojurebot	#{1 2 7 19}
21:05	mmarczyk	DuneMan: me too :-)
21:05	mmarczyk	alexyk: mapcat = (apply concat (map ...))
21:05	alexyk	ah!
21:05	alexyk	mapcat should be clojure mascot
21:06	DuneMan	pictures a really lame logo
21:06	mmarczyk	ohhh, and you mentioned concat above
21:06	alexyk	and... the Oscar goes to ninjudd!
21:06	mmarczyk	sorry, missed that
21:06	DuneMan	aha, I'm in IRC, I can actually use /me, doh
21:06	ataggart	cdr shdr wdr
21:07	DuneMan	ugh
21:07	alexyk	who stole car/cdr from clojure?
21:07	DuneMan	An ex-coworker of mine made and sold a bunch of t-shirts with just "()" on them
21:07	alexyk	,(doc car)
21:07	clojurebot	I don't understand.
21:07	DuneMan	I see the occasional nerd in the bay are wandering around with one
21:07	DuneMan	area*
21:08	ataggart	"my other car is a cdr."
21:08	mmarczyk	:-)
21:08	ataggart	someone's bumpersticker
21:08	DuneMan	shakes head
21:09	DuneMan	I almost got a custom license plate with SFINAE on it... but I decided only 4 people would get it
21:11	mmarczyk	is the *jure ban due to the Great or the Dear part? ;-)
21:12	alexyk	mmarczyk: meaning Great Dear Leader's reluctance to use *jure-suffixed names?
21:12	ataggart	there are only so many puns
21:12	ataggart	seajure
21:12	ataggart	I like the best
21:13	mmarczyk	alexyk: no, meaning his reluctance to allow people to use those names with their projects with current snapshots of lein :-P
21:14	alexyk	mmarczyk: that's the dear part, since it's endearing :)
21:15	mmarczyk	alexyk: isn't that "endangering", with who knows how many *jure partisans lurking around?
21:16	alexyk	mmarczyk: then it's Great since it imposes an iron will on an unruly and anarchical mob!
21:16	alexyk	with the unabashed bold display of stylistic preferences
21:19	mmarczyk	fine :-)
21:20	_brian2_	noob question > I want to develop patches to a library, what do to my project file, etc?
21:20	ninjudd	lancepantz: maybe we should name our NativeClassLoader project classlojure just to spite him
21:21	ninjudd	or is classloadjure better?
21:21	mmarczyk	I'd say, go with loajure
21:21	mmarczyk	;-)
21:22	ninjudd	classlojure is nice because you take the c from clojure and replace it with class
21:22	mmarczyk	true!
21:27	ninjudd	http://github.com/ninjudd/classlojure
21:27	mmarczyk	way to go!
21:28	mmarczyk	:-)
21:28	mmarczyk	nice Gist (NCL), by the way
21:29	ninjudd	mmarczyk: thanks. now we just need to figure out how to make it work without changing Clojure internals
21:31	mmarczyk	you think that's possible? (I really wouldn't know, my Java-fu is rather weak)
21:33	ninjudd	i think that use-context-classloader is supposed to allow you to use your own classloader
21:33	ninjudd	but it doesn't seem to work for import for whatever reason
21:38	hugod	ninjudd: use-context-classloader is true by default, you just need to set the thread context class loader to the one you want
21:39	ninjudd	hugod: yeah, but for some reason it doesn't work for import
21:39	ninjudd	here's my code that doesn't work: http://github.com/ninjudd/classlojure/blob/master/src/clj/classlojure.clj
21:45	MadWombat	can anyone point me in the right direction to load and call ant tasks from an XML file in clojure/java?
21:45	MadWombat	some sort of factory class perhaps?
21:47	hugod	ninjudd: you trying that AOT'd ?
21:47	ninjudd	hmm, no
21:47	ninjudd	i was just trying it on the repl
21:52	_brian2_	noob question, if I want to develop patches for a pre-existing library, do I git the library to my computer and put [lein-clojars "0.5.0"] into my project file, do I have to take the original dependencies out?
21:56	hugod	ninjudd: it looks to me as if the context class loader is not used if Compiler.LOADER.isBound(), which is the case inside an eval or a load. I have only ever tried setting the classloader before calling into clojure from java.
21:57	brweber2	so I created a gateway drug to help people get into clojure
21:57	brweber2	http://github.com/brweber2/clojure/tree/master/examples/
21:57	brweber2	mostly b/c I wanted to start messing around with the source code
21:57	brweber2	it is NOT intended to be serious
21:57	brweber2	but any feedback is appreciated
21:57	brweber2	it is a full fork of clojure on github
21:57	brweber2	but the changes are very minimal
22:01	brweber2	rhickey How was day 1?
22:04	hugod	some clojure mojo : http://github.com/hugoduncan/clojure-mojo-example/blob/master/src/main/clojure/maven/clojure/example/plugin.clj
22:14	lancepantz	how do i get emacs to always use paredit in clojure-mode?
22:17	_brian2_	DuneMan : do you know.. if I want to develop patches for congomongo, whats the idiomatic way, do I git it to my computer, put [lein-clojars "0.5.0"] in project file and take congomongo dependenicies out, or leave in, or am I on the wrong track?
22:50	joshua-choi	Perhaps this has been asked before, but... I want to know if there's a fast, standard function that transforms a map: (= (transform f m) (into {} (for [[k v] m] [k (f val)]))).
22:50	joshua-choi	Perhaps one that uses transients. This function would be very useful to me.
22:53	hiredman	,(doc fmap)
22:53	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.generic.functor/fmap;[[f s]]; Applies function f to each item in the data structure s and returns a structure of the same kind."
22:55	tomoj	awesome
22:55	joshua-choi	Eh...that's a multimethod. Thank you, though.
23:06	powr-toc	lancepantz: http://gist.github.com/399438
23:06	lancepantz	thank you :)
23:12	joshua-choi	Is there a for-like macro that iterates specifically through nested maps?
23:14	powr-toc	joshua-choi: the closest I can think of is building something with tree-seq
23:14	joshua-choi	(map-for [x {:a {:a 1, :b 3}, :b {:a 2, :b 2}}, y x] (+ (count x) y))
23:14	joshua-choi	Hmm
23:15	powr-toc	can you not just call seq on the maps?
23:15	powr-toc	and treat them as pairs?#
23:16	joshua-choi	powr-toc: Yeah, but it's a pain to do (into {} (for [[x-k x-v] {...}] [x-k (into {} (for [[y-k y-v] x-v] [y-k (+ (count x-v) y-v)]))])).
23:17	powr-toc	yeah
23:17	joshua-choi	I'm surprised that this isn't much in demand yet
23:18	joshua-choi	I want things like this all the time
23:18	powr-toc	what do you want it for?
23:19	joshua-choi	I have a nested map, and I want to transform it into a similar nested map with modified inner vals
23:20	powr-toc	can you use merge-with?
23:20	joshua-choi	How would I do that?
23:21	joshua-choi	I don't think I can, no.
23:22	tomoj	can't you just take the fmap for maps and make it a function?
23:23	tomoj	huh, seems fmap doesn't even do what you want
23:24	powr-toc	joshua-choi: I'm struggling to see what your idea for map-for is doing... is the destructuring right?
23:24	joshua-choi	I believe the do-monad of the map-m monad does what I want, though it's not very well-supported
23:25	tomoj	and certainly not fast, I'd think?
23:25	joshua-choi	powr-toc: The bound variable x is bound to each val of the {:a ..., :b ...} map, and the subsequent bound variable y is bound to each val of x.
23:26	joshua-choi	Ideally, it'd use transients or something
23:26	joshua-choi	If I wrote my own, could I submit it to clojure-contrib?
23:30	joshua-choi	If monads are good at one thing, it's making it easier to write let/for-like macros.
23:31	tomoj	oh, so you'd use map-m just to generate the macroexpansion which would be fast code?
23:33	joshua-choi	tomoj: Yes, I would—except map-m doesn't yet exist in clojure.contrib.monads.
23:34	tomoj	I was wondering earlier whether protocols would help
23:34	joshua-choi	I'm glad Rich Hickey showed an interest in eventually integrating monads into clojure's main namespaces
23:34	powr-toc	he did?
23:34	joshua-choi	I think it was on the clojure-dev Google group.
23:34	tomoj	"Number of monads in Clojure 1.0: Zero. In 1.1: Zero. In 1.2: Zero. Monads are not idiomatic (via @stuarthalloway)"
23:35	tomoj	heh
23:35	joshua-choi	Yeah, I read that too.
23:35	joshua-choi	But anyways, it seems that there's currently no standard way to transform a map's vals easily, which is annoying
23:35	joshua-choi	Oh well
23:35	joshua-choi	(into {} (map ...))
23:35	tomoj	I've run into that problem before as well
23:35	tomoj	and I think it's come up in here before
23:36	joshua-choi	I would think this would be a common thing to do with maps...:\|
23:36	rdsr	hey All, I once saw a cheat sheet which detailed the time complexity of various functions in clojure. I can't seem to find it now, does any one know about it
23:36	rdsr	?
23:37	powr-toc	http://www.innoq.com/blog/st/2010/04/clojure_performance_guarantees.html
23:37	sexpbot	"Clojure Performance Guarantees - Stefan Tilkov's Random Stuff"
23:38	rdsr	powr-toc: thanks