#clojure – 2010-05-11

2010-05-11

00:00	rlmcintyre	but for CLI scripts you could create a persistent JVM like with nailgun and then it would be much faster; most of the time taken up with short scripts is the initialization of the JVM.
00:01	technomancy	rlmcintyre: you still need shell scripts in there somewhere to set up the classpath
00:01	mmarczyk	technomancy: is your long-term (?) plan to remove swank-clojure.el altogether?
00:02	technomancy	a pure-clojure CLI app would be very, very awkward
00:02	mmarczyk	technomancy: asking because I'm trying to figure out where best to try and squeeze in slime-repl advice stuff for colouring
00:02	technomancy	mmarczyk: no, I won't remove it. I'll just stop updating it and spin it off into a separate library once I find a volunteer to maintain it
00:02	technomancy	mmarczyk: could be a candidate for an entirely separate package
00:03	hiredman	technomancy: need to compile clojure to sh
00:04	technomancy	hiredman: or port it to another host
00:04	rava	namely what i'm liking most is that i've been able to abstract away my remaining needed shell/perl scripts into a dsl
00:04	mmarczyk	technomancy: I take it you expect clojure-mode to be enough to use slime-repl though?
00:04	technomancy	mmarczyk: yes, but slime-repl is not a dependency of clojure-mode
00:04	mmarczyk	technomancy: also, I've sent you a pull request for the basic refactoring needed for a sane approach to coloured repl
00:04	technomancy	mmarczyk: there are two defuns in clojure-mode that pertain to slime.el, but they're clearly optional.
00:05	technomancy	mmarczyk: cool, pull requests for clomo?
00:05	mmarczyk	technomancy: sure
00:05	technomancy	(clomo being ido-shorthand for clojure-mode)
00:05	mmarczyk	technomancy: yup
00:05	technomancy	great
00:05	mmarczyk	technomancy: I've tried to abide by your contributing guidelines (the blog post, I mean) :-)
00:08	technomancy	nice. don't worry, in real life I'm not as picky as I sound in that post
00:10	mmarczyk	:-)
00:18	technomancy	mmarczyk: thanks; merged
00:20	mmarczyk	technomancy: great! :-)
00:21	mmarczyk	Raynes: that's really neat :-)
00:21	Raynes	:3
00:58	rava	Raynes: why not have the printer in an iframe so the refresh doesn't require the whole page?
00:58	Raynes	rava: What?
00:58	rava	http://tryclj.licenser.net/
00:58	sexpbot	"TryClojure"
00:59	Raynes	Because I have no clue what I'm doing.
00:59	Raynes	'bout sums it up.
00:59	rava	lol
01:00	Raynes	rava: I'll see about that.
01:18	rava	Raynes: the syntax highlighting IS spiffy :)
02:30	zmila	"=> (i++ 12345678901234)
02:31	zmila	java.lang.Exception: EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false."
02:31	zmila	your repl doesn't permit BigInts?
02:35	zmila	s/i++/inc/
02:35	sexpbot	your repl doesn't perminct Bincgincnts?
02:43	Raynes	Heh heh. Fail.
02:51	rava	hrm, people should watch this ted talk to get functional programming i think: http://www.ted.com/talks/george_whitesides_toward_a_science_of_simplicity.html
02:51	sexpbot	"George Whitesides: Toward a science of simplicity \| Video on TED.com"
03:14	scottj	rava: I don't agree, I think everything he says in that lecture is either obvious or useless.
04:12	vegai	the seq function is a bit of a mystery to me
04:12	vegai	it doesn't seem to do much, does it?
04:12	vegai	does it have other uses than returning nil for empty list?
04:12	tgk	You can use it to generate seqs from iterables
04:13	tgk	or on strings
04:17	cschreiner	rava: I agree
04:19	rava	cschreiner: maybe i'm inferior for it, but i needed a way of talking about functional programming like a set of simple functions that can be stacked to produce correct complexity
04:21	cschreiner	rava: I don't know much about "correct"
04:21	rava	cschreiner: correct as in "the planned for" resultant complexity
04:22	cschreiner	rava: at some point, you don't want to think about things that are, since you've shifted focus to somewhere different (in your system)
04:22	cschreiner	rava: this is what complexity is to me
04:22	rava	cschreiner: like a bunch of functions to manipulate pixels on the screen stacked to render animation
04:23	cschreiner	rava: I'm with you
05:04	Borkdude	I think I'm right about asking Java questions here instead of in #java
05:05	Licenser_	Borkdude: didn't we had that topic yesterdaz?
05:06	Borkdude	Licenser_: yeh, but I tried the #java channel and my thoughts were confirmed ;)
05:06	Licenser_	so what do you learned?
05:08	Borkdude	they aren't as helpful as people in here
05:09	Licenser_	Borkdude: not quite: don't use java!
05:09	Borkdude	Licenser_: of course, I forgot
05:12	Borkdude	What is the word for 'more specific' question of another question: a specification of the more general question?
05:17	Licenser_	Borkdude: specific?
05:18	Borkdude	Licenser_: and then a noun?
05:20	Licenser_	hmmm
05:21	_ato	refinement
05:22	Borkdude	ah
05:23	Borkdude	What is the opposite of "generalization"
05:23	Borkdude	I would say "specification"
05:24	cschreiner	discrimination?
05:26	_ato	yeah, although I don't think I've ever heard "specification" used much when referring to questions. Then again, I haven't heard generalization used much when referring to questions either, but it sounds better somehow than specification
05:27	_ato	I guess I hear contexts more like "more specific version of the question" "could you refine your question?" etc
05:27	_ato	another one might be "narrowing"
05:27	_ato	depending on context
05:28	_ato	ah!
05:28	_ato	Borkdude: "specialization"
05:28	_ato	that's a closer oppose to generalization
05:31	Borkdude	_ato: ah of course
05:31	Borkdude	tnx
05:33	cschreiner	can someone point to a good use of the defrecord statement?
05:36	cschreiner	seems to me that it is just a composition of defprotocol and several implementations?
05:44	cschreiner	oh well, protocols in clojure is almost like protocols in obj-c
05:45	AWizzArd	cschreiner: defrecord can be the typical building block for your values
05:46	AWizzArd	(defrecord User [username password name zip age account salary friends])
05:46	cschreiner	yes, I see that, helps to experiment a little :-/
05:46	AWizzArd	(defrecord Account [money bankname credit])
05:46	cschreiner	ok
05:47	cschreiner	so to use that instance, Account, I would do what?
05:48	AWizzArd	(Account. 4000 "Fantasy Bank" "1000")
05:48	cschreiner	since there is no ctor associated with it
05:49	cschreiner	ah, of course
05:49	naeu	would it be wise to use a multimethod to define different implementations of a given function depending on the type of the second argument?
05:49	cschreiner	looks like defstruct
05:50	AWizzArd	And such things can then be stored in a user (User. "cschreiner" "pass" "Schreiner" 123 25 (Account. 100 "Schreiner-Bank" 1000) 5000 [])
05:50	AWizzArd	cschreiner: yes, very much like defstruct, but faster
05:50	cschreiner	AWizzArd: thats very helpful, thanks!
05:50	AWizzArd	for some moments it was planned to not introduce defrecord, but instead let the old defstruct disappear and make the new one be defrecord
05:51	AWizzArd	But then for the sake of compatibility defstruct was left in the game, and defrecord was introduced.
05:51	cschreiner	I see
05:55	cschreiner	could this be seen as a parameterization of functions?
05:56	AWizzArd	What do you mean by that?
05:57	tomoj	did I miss the difference between defstruct and defrecord?
05:57	tomoj	(just got here)
05:58	cschreiner	hard to explain, since I am not a native speaker, but I see it as: functions that can vary their implemention, since you are passing a something (protocol?) into its first arg position
05:58	cschreiner	this is how I read the code, perhaps I've got it completely backwards :)
06:01	AWizzArd	tomoj: defrecord produces a new (jvm) class
06:02	AWizzArd	cschreiner: that is about polymorphism. Depending on the type of the first arg of a protocoll function a specific implementation is called, and this is decided during runtime.
06:03	tomoj	AWizzArd: of course
06:03	tomoj	so it's like half way between a deftype and a defstruct...?
06:04	cschreiner	it's an interesting concept
06:04	tomoj	I still feel like I have no idea when to use any of these new things :(
06:04	AWizzArd	Not necessarily a fight. In principle for pretty much all cases defrecord is the right thing to use.
06:05	AWizzArd	I don't know, maybe defstruct is now even deprecated.
06:05	cschreiner	taking the polymorphic perspective, things fall nicely into place
06:05	tomoj	defrecords act like maps, I assume?
06:05	AWizzArd	tomoj: yes
06:05	AWizzArd	cschreiner: Protocolls are a special case of Multimethods.
06:05	tomoj	ok, I love the simplicity of maps and am somewhat scared of all this OOP-sounding crap
06:05	tomoj	but if they still act like maps, I suppose it's ok
06:06	AWizzArd	they let you do less things, but much faster, and Protocolls are fine for the typical 90% of all use cases. For the others there is still defmulti.
06:06	cschreiner	AWizzArd: I never got a proper grasp of multimethods, this thing looks more usable, I think
06:07	AWizzArd	Protocolls are very similar to the typical polymorphism of C++, Java, C#, Python, Ruby, etc.
06:07	AWizzArd	The dispatch on the type of the first argument. That's it.
06:07	AWizzArd	Multimethods can dispatch on anything and on any of the args.
06:07	AWizzArd	It does not have to be the type.
06:08	cschreiner	wonderful
06:09	AWizzArd	but most often most people need in most situations just the type of something, and for those cases Protocolls are preferrable, as they are very performant.
06:09	AWizzArd	It is pretty much the original Java speed
06:15	tomoj	aren't protocols _better_ than typical? :)
06:15	tomoj	rich would create something just as good as feature X in C++
06:16	tomoj	s/would/would never/
06:16	sexpbot	rich would never create something just as good as feature X in C++
06:30	AWizzArd	tomoj: with Protocolls you can extend existing classes with functionality without the need to have their sources
06:39	tomoj	you can do that in java, too :(
06:39	tomoj	(yes?)
06:40	vegai	tomoj: no
06:40	cschreiner	nope
06:40	cschreiner	you can in obj-c
06:40	vegai	well, I guess you can do it somehow in java too
06:40	vegai	after all, clojure's kinda doing it.
06:42	Borkdude	AWizzArd: is protocols similar to Extension Methods in C# maybe?
06:42	Chousuke	The classes are not extended
06:42	Chousuke	the protocol is
06:43	Chousuke	a protocol covers a set of classes and that set is extensible
06:44	Borkdude	Chousuke: in C# it is just syntactic sugar, you add static methods around classes, but it seems they are part of the classes themselves
06:44	Chousuke	so they wrap the class?
06:45	Borkdude	yes, but you can call them as if they belong to the class
06:45	Borkdude	they don't change the original code
06:45	Chousuke	right.
07:00	tomoj	ah, yes, I see what you can't do in java that you can with protocols, I think
07:01	naeu	if I want to create a new thread to use a polling mechanism (essentially calling a function, obtaining a value and then conditionally calling a set of callbacks with that value) what might be an idiomatic approach?
07:02	AWizzArd	tomoj: just write your own java interface offering the method foo() and make Strings implementing this interface.
07:02	AWizzArd	You will see that this is not trivial, because you can't add this to the source code of the class String.
07:02	AWizzArd	Though this may change in Java 7, where interface injection might become available.
07:06	tomoj	hadn't heard about that, cool
08:09	saml	how do I start out compojure on windows?
08:09	tomoj	should be the same as compojure anywhere else
08:10	tomoj	I mean, once you've got clojure working
08:10	saml	lein is experimental on windows
08:11	tomoj	and lein, then, too :/
08:11	tomoj	but compojure itself should be any different, I mean
08:12	AWizzArd	saml: instead of a compojure.jar just let your CP point to the sources. You can download them from github as .zip and unpack them somewhere (into your CP).
08:13	saml	okiez. is it easy to package a clojure web application into a single jar that could be run as java -jar blah.jar 8080 ?
08:14	saml	oh it's java i think i know where to look
08:18	Chousuke	saml: leiningen makes that pretty easy
08:18	Chousuke	though the resulting jar will be quite large :P
08:19	saml	why would it be large?
08:19	AWizzArd	It is also not be difficult with Ant.
08:19	saml	clojure + clojure-contrib + .... or does leiningen add its own libraries to jar?
08:19	AWizzArd	-be
08:20	chouser	sort-by takes a keyfn, sorted-set-by takes a comparator
08:20	chouser	seems unfortunate
08:20	hamza	stand alone compojure app is around 7mb...
08:23	AWizzArd	chouser: also the differences of how the comparators of sorted sets and sorted maps need to be written is irritating
08:23	chouser	oh, how are they different?
08:25	chouser	,(sorted-set-by #(compare (count %1) (count %2)) "z" "cab" "al")
08:25	clojurebot	#{"z" "al" "cab"}
08:25	chouser	,(sorted-map-by #(compare (count %1) (count %2)) "z" :a "cab" :b "al" :c)
08:25	clojurebot	{"z" :a, "al" :c, "cab" :b}
08:26	Chousuke	saml: it puts in your own code and all of its dependencies
08:26	saml	Chousuke: ah thanks. i'll try lein
08:27	naeu	I still struggle to get my head into a functional style. How would I cleanly apply a function to each key and val in a map to produce another map?
08:29	chouser	naeu: there are a couple ways
08:29	naeu	i.e. i want to define an anonymous function which takes two params, k and v and for every pair of k and v in a given map, a new entry in a new map with key k and value being the result of the function would be created
08:29	naeu	(if that makes any sense)
08:29	AWizzArd	chouser: a sorted-map's compare will compare two keys, while the one for sorted-sets will compare two values
08:29	chouser	naeu: (apply conj ...) can take a seq of key/value pairs and use them to build a map
08:30	chouser	AWizzArd: how else could it possibly be? You want your maps sorted by value!?
08:31	AWizzArd	imagine you have a (defrecord User [username passwort ...]) Then a compare for a sorted set could look like (fn [^String u1, ^String u2] (.compareToIgnoreCase (:name @u1) (:name @u2)))
08:31	chouser	naeu: 'into' does that as well.
08:31	chouser	,(into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [(str k "-san") (inc v)]) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})){":a-san" 2, ":b-san" 3, ":c-san" 4}
08:31	clojurebot	{":a-san" 2, ":b-san" 3, ":c-san" 4}
08:31	AWizzArd	chouser: no no, it has to be this way, just wanted to point out that this can be irritating
08:32	chouser	AWizzArd: oh, ok. I tend to think of the things in a set as "keys" so I hadn't noticed.
08:33	AWizzArd	chouser: and another difficulty is with subseq. Sometimes the start-test and end-test are not intuitive
08:33	chouser	,(into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [(str k "-san") (inc v)]) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}))
08:33	clojurebot	{":a-san" 2, ":b-san" 3, ":c-san" 4}
08:33	AWizzArd	plus it would be very nice if there were a (submap ...) and/or (subset ...)
08:34	naeu	chouser: thanks, that looks interesting
08:34	naeu	need to spend some time musing over it first though
08:34	AWizzArd	chouser: and even nicer it would be if there could be shared structure for those. If you have a set filling 5 GB RAM and then get a subset of it for another 2 GB, it would be neat if those could fit into some few kb/mb.
08:35	naeu	chouser: mostly because " Returns a new coll consisting of to-coll with all of the items of from-coll conjoined" still sounds alien to me
08:36	naeu	the clojure docs often remind me of the times Susanna, my wife, used to discuss matters pertaining to doctors with her medic friends
08:36	chouser	naeu: 'into' is very useful. it essentially lets you "pour" a seq into whatever collection you give it (a map in this case)
08:36	chouser	you could also use 'zipmap' for this if you prefer
08:36	chouser	,(let [m {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}] (zipmap (map #(str % "-san") (keys m)) (map inc (vals m))))
08:36	clojurebot	{":c-san" 4, ":b-san" 3, ":a-san" 2}
08:37	Licenser_	naeu: as in you have the feeling you have to know it to understand it?
08:37	naeu	chouser: now why doesn't the doc say something in the manner with which you described
08:37	naeu	Licenser_: yeah, as in there's this whole other externally incomprehensible domain vocabulary in use
08:37	Licenser_	naeu: look for walton it is very helpufl
08:37	chouser	naeu: I couldn't tell you. The current docstring for into and the "pour into" analogy are both straight from rhickey.
08:38	Licenser_	$walton into
08:38	sexpbot	Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo.
08:38	naeu	chouser: I'm sure the vocabulary used will only be a positive aspect in the future
08:38	Chousuke	naeu: "coll" means any clojure collection, and conjoin is the generic "insert" operation for collections
08:39	naeu	chouser: from what I've seen of Rich it seems that he's very keen on using explicit vocab where necessary, and rightly so
08:39	naeu	it's just that it's hard when you're an outsider
08:39	Chousuke	analogous to cons with lists I suppose.
08:39	Chousuke	but works for vectors, sets and maps too
08:39	Licenser_	http://getclojure.org:8080/examples/into
08:40	naeu	it feels like clojure people will be able to have highly efficient discussions regarding concurrent process which will only sound like gobeldygook to others
08:40	Chousuke	heh.
08:40	rhudson	The basic definition of (into to from) is (reduce conj to from) -- the doc string pretty much says the latter in English.
08:41	Chousuke	the actual implementation of into is somewhat more efficient though :)
08:41	chouser	hm, it's a shame into-array is mixed with into on the walton page
08:41	Chousuke	but that's the nice thing about it. you don't need to care.
08:41	rhudson	Chousuke: right, but that's the essence. (And the 1.0 def)
08:41	Chousuke	it's just the most efficient way to pour a collection into another
08:41	naeu	do you think we'll see implementations of core functions become even more efficient with the new protocol stuff?
08:41	Chousuke	most likely
08:42	Chousuke	there's already an InternalReduce protocol isn't there?
08:42	chouser	defn: it'd be great to have a link from the walton page to the irc log it came from, for related discussion.
08:42	rhudson	What's walton?
08:42	chouser	rhudson: http://getclojure.org:8080/examples/into
08:43	chouser	replace "into" there with the fn name of your choice
08:44	naeu	is there anyway of getting an offline cache of walton?
08:44	naeu	it looks remarkably useful
08:46	chouser	naeu: interesting idea. I don't know of any.
08:46	naeu	i often try and code offline to remove distractions
08:46	chouser	naeu: wait, when are you on a computer and yet offline? :-)
08:47	chouser	ah
08:47	naeu	i've recently taken to coding in coffeeshops and libraries
08:47	chouser	naeu: there's this clever invention sometimes called wifi you should check out...
08:47	naeu	so i have an offline copy of the Java API
08:48	chouser	:-)
08:48	SynrG	biiig
08:48	SynrG	me, the bus ... and wifi connectivity is ... spotty
08:48	SynrG	and my eee is too small for the whole freaking java API
08:48	naeu	chouser: yeah, but I lack discipline sometimes which needs to be enforced by no wifi ;-)
08:49	SynrG	i need to somehow choose some minimal subset that covers what i'd most likely need for clojure
08:49	chouser	I'll stop teasing you now. :-)
08:49	naeu	it's one of the reasons I love git so much
08:50	naeu	and my hard disk - i love my hard disk ;-)
08:50	chouser	naeu: I could send you the irc logs that walton uses -- grepping them might be nearly as useful, if less pretty.
08:50	naeu	chouser: I already have a copy of all the irc logs which I use quite a bit
08:51	SynrG	hmm. i should set up squid on my eee or something
08:51	naeu	I appreciated the simplicity and focus of walton
08:51	chouser	naeu: oh, yeah? where'd you get the logs from?
08:51	naeu	but it would rock if walton linked back to the irc logs for context (as someone recently mentioned)
08:51	naeu	chouser: hmmm, good question. That, I can't remember
08:52	chouser	naeu: you have them in .html form?
08:52	naeu	no, plain text
08:52	chouser	huh. ok.
08:52	naeu	i enjoyed reading the early days
08:52	naeu	with just 10 or so people in the room
09:11	bsteuber	does the quote "Mutable Objects are the new Spaghetti Code" come from Rich?
09:12	chouser	he said something at least roughly like that
09:17	bsteuber	chouser: ok, now I got the original quote
09:28	hugod	is it possible to define a new annotation in clojure?
09:28	rhickey	hugod: no
09:29	hugod	rhickey: thanks. Is there a fundamental problem in doing so?
09:29	rhickey	hugod: annotations are a Java thing, and supporting them in Clojure is strictly about complying with existing Java APIs that require them. I don't encourage their use otherwise
09:30	rhickey	Clojure can't really add anything over Java in defining them
09:30	hugod	rhickey: ok, but there is no way of adding metadata to deftype classes without them
09:32	rhickey	hugod: true
09:32	chouser	a try/catch block is cheap when no exception is thrown, right?
09:32	rhickey	chouser: yes
09:32	rhickey	in Java
09:33	chouser	but not in ...?
09:34	AWizzArd	Moin frank.
09:34	Licenser_	rhickey: may I ask a question regarding copyright?
09:35	rhickey	chouser: I wouldn't want to say, as improvements are always possible. But known cheap in Java
09:35	rhickey	Licenser_: sure
09:35	Licenser_	I'd like to use the clojure logo on my try-clojure site, is that OK with you?
09:36	chouser	rhickey: ok, you mean JVM. Not trying to say try/catch may be slower in Clojure but that they may be slower on some host besides JVM?
09:36	rhickey	chouser: right
09:36	chouser	great, thanks.
09:36	rhickey	Licenser_: which site?
09:36	Licenser_	try-clojure.org (like tryhaskel.org) not up yet
09:38	rhickey	Licenser_: as long as you are not charging, and the Clojure that is running is official Clojure
09:39	rhickey	Licenser_: Clojure logo should only refer to official Clojure lang
09:39	Licenser_	rhickey: no it's 100% free it's a site for the comunity and it is the official clojure just running in a sandbox
09:39	Licenser_	nods
09:39	rhickey	Licenser_: ok then
09:39	Licenser_	cool :) thanks
09:41	arkahn	is the ant.clj concurrency example (referenced on http://blip.tv/file/812787 ) still considered idiomatic clojure or are there more recent examples that would be recommended? Trying to learn 'best practices' while learning clojure
09:41	sexpbot	"Clojure Concurrency"
09:42	arkahn	specifically with regards to concurrency
09:47	Licenser_	question: if I delete a namespace, will all variables in it get CG'ed?
09:47	chouser	arkahn: I think the concurrency semantics and idioms there are still good. Some of the source idioms (java interop in particular) may be a bit dated.
09:54	arkahn	chouser: a number of the functions follow the form of "defn 'noun-form', while running, send-off agent 'noun-form', fn call to verb-form, sleep" Is that typical/recommended use of agents? It's really kind of cool the first time a person (me) encounters it: if you're still running, make a call to yourself in the future (in serial) then execute the business-end of the code, then sleep for a short while
09:54	arkahn	chouser: thank you
09:55	chouser	arkahn: yeah, send-sending agents are still valid, afaik. Nothing's replaced them that I know of.
09:56	chouser	self-sending
10:32	giacecco	Hi all!
10:33	giacecco	Anybody can suggest a good tutorial to start using leiningen? I followed the short instructions at http://bit.ly/dbuw3u but it fails almost immediately saying that
10:33	sexpbot	"technomancy's leiningen at master - GitHub"
10:34	giacecco	[null] Unable to resolve artifact: Unable to get dependency information: Unable to read the metadata file for artifact 'org.clojure:clojure:jar': Error getting POM for 'org.clojure:clojure' from the repository: Unable to store local copy of metadata: Error updating group repository metadata
10:34	giacecco	it looks a bit like a file system permission issue
10:34	giacecco	and a Maven one, probably
10:36	giacecco	yep I was right, running 'sudo lein compile' works fine :-(
10:36	savanni	If you're running as yourself, you should be able to download the original lein script and run "lein self-install". It should create everything with the correct permissions.
10:37	savanni	(I went through this process yesterday, actually)
10:37	giacecco	I got to that point savanni
10:37	giacecco	installation is ok
10:37	savanni	You're trying to compile something else with lein?
10:37	giacecco	I am compiling for the first time
10:37	mmarczyk	giacecco: check the permissions on ~/.m2 (and inside it)
10:38	giacecco	ha!
10:38	arkahn	noob question: when is -> needed?
10:38	mmarczyk	giacecco: maybe even do something like chmod -R u+rwX ~/.m2 (note the capital X)
10:38	mmarczyk	arkahn: it's never needed, but may make the code more readable
10:39	dnolen	,(-> 4 (+ 5) (* 2))
10:39	clojurebot	18
10:39	arkahn	mmarczyk: I read it's definition in the clojure api but can't make sense of it
10:39	dnolen	instead of
10:39	giacecco	it was the permissions of .m2, thanks!
10:40	dnolen	,(* (+ 4 5) 2)
10:40	giacecco	sorry my question was the usual idiot one
10:40	clojurebot	18
10:40	mmarczyk	giacecco: yw :-)
10:41	arkahn	dnolen: hmm ... I think I get it. So it modifies prefix notation to a notation that reads left to right?
10:41	dnolen	arkahn: basically
10:41	arkahn	cool - thanks all
10:42	fogus	arkahn: http://blog.fogus.me/2009/09/04/understanding-the-clojure-macro/
10:42	sexpbot	"-= Understanding the Clojure -> macro =-"
10:42	arkahn	I wish that would have been explained in the book Prog Clojure ; )
10:42	arkahn	fogus: thanks
10:43	fogus	np
10:44	naeu	fogus: do you expand anywhere on your recent tweet regarding the power of pre- and post-conditions?
10:44	fogus	dnolen: I see you're trying to get through to the axisofeval guy. Good luck
10:44	fogus	naeu: Yes. In the Joy of Clojure. ;-)
10:44	dnolen	fogus: I tried, but he seems to be the classic stubborn Lisper, oh well.
10:44	naeu	fogus: haha, cool :-)
10:45	dnolen	interesting blog tho.
10:45	fogus	dnolen: I was worth a shot I suppose. Yes, I agree, pretty good so far... minus the Clojure misrepresentation
10:46	fogus	and python
10:46	fogus	and maybe the others that I'm not aware of
10:50	mmarczyk	actually it seems to me that that post is misrepresenting Lisp; traditionally it was the mainstream catching up to Lisp, I think, and not the other way around
10:50	mmarczyk	(the Clojure post)
10:55	savanni	In reference to an earlier conversation (and the reason I re-joined the channel), is leiningen becoming the most commonly used build tool, and is clojars becoming the most common place to publish code?
10:55	mmarczyk	no, they've already become the most commonly used build tool & repo ;-)
10:55	savanni	lol
10:56	savanni	Is there a time that people push to Maven Central instead of clojars?
10:56	mmarczyk	well I wouldn't put it past some folks
10:57	savanni	Heh. Well, still, that tells me exactly how to proceed in building my projects.
10:57	savanni	Though I will have to one day figure out how to package stuff for ubuntu.
10:59	mmarczyk	make sure to write up your wisdom once you do :-)
11:01	savanni	Heh.
11:01	savanni	I still have write-ups to do for an application that I wrote first in Haskell and then in Clojure. I wanted to do an overall comparison between the two.
11:02	mmarczyk	what kind of app?
11:03	mmarczyk	oh, um, my super-late-lunch has just arived, bbl
11:05	savanni	It's an app that plays a sound every quarter hour. I wrote it for somebody who needs help keeping track of the passage of time. Uses gnome for the GUI and gstreamer for the sound. Turns out that I couldn't deliver it because I found out at the last second that the Java Gnome libraries never got ported to Windows. Very sad. Should have researched more at the beginning.
11:06	savanni	But, I'll have to recode the GUI for the next Ubuntu, anyway, because of policy changes.
11:54	Licenser	aloa
11:55	giacecco	aloa
11:55	biribau	hi! im new to clojure and lisp, it looks great!
11:56	Licenser	biribau: glad you made the decision to give it a try :)
12:07	giacecco	biribau: I agree :-)
12:07	giacecco	I studied lisp a few years ago, but it showed all its age
12:08	giacecco	one of my favourite lisp book is http://bit.ly/gQiU9 , but I needed something more practical
12:08	sexpbot	"Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming"
12:08	giacecco	yes that one
12:08	sh10151	There was always http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ :)
12:08	sexpbot	"Practical Common Lisp"
12:09	biribau	oh, i come from haskell, but i feel it lacks some things i love, like reflectivity
12:09	savanni	And then there's http://thinkrelevance.com/blog/2008/09/16/pcl-clojure.html , which translates PCL into Clojure.
12:09	sexpbot	"PCL -> Clojure"
12:10	savanni	biribau: I very nearly adopted Haskell instead of Clojure.
12:10	sh10151	Kind of difficult to adopt Haskell and get paid for programming in it
12:10	savanni	True. But clojure isn't going to make it into my office any time soon, either.
12:11	sh10151	At least with Clojure you can say "hey, it compiles to a jar file..."
12:11	savanni	By "adopted", though, I meant for both personal projects and freelancing.
12:11	biribau	well i left haskell about 1 year ago, i recently was looking for a language, im trying a lot of langs but i cant find what im looking for
12:12	biribau	nobody is perfect
12:12	biribau	i tryed recently scala also, but i prefer clojure
12:13	wlangstroth	sh10151: depends on the office
12:13	giacecco	sh10151: true, but people will be sceptical when you define yourself as a 'clojure lover'
12:14	wlangstroth	haha - "clojure lover"
12:14	wlangstroth	I see a lot of resistance to Lisp, that's for sure. I still don't really know why.
12:15	giacecco	Lisp is too isolated from the 'real world'
12:15	giacecco	no libraries etc.
12:15	technomancy	people fear what they don't understand
12:15	technomancy	for instance, I am terrified of type systems.
12:15	stuartsierra	Clojure doesn't have the library problem, at least, b/c of Java.
12:16	wlangstroth	technomancy: that's probably it
12:16	savanni	And the lisp systems that I tried using could not launch a script from the unix command line and dumped a huge amount of superfluous output that would break any CGI application.
12:16	savanni	Clojure didn't have any of those problems, so I fell in love rapidly.
12:16	stuartsierra	Clojure's still not suitable for CGI, however.
12:16	savanni	Right, much too slow.
12:16	SynrG	i'm in an environment, oddly enough, where clojure may be one of the most accessible languages to move to. there aren't a whole lot of languages supported on OpenVMS, but it at least has a well-supported (fsvo "well") jvm
12:16	technomancy	wow, that's the first time I've heard anyone say anything good about using clojure from the CLI
12:16	savanni	But, is it suitable when running inside a compojure service?
12:16	wlangstroth	technomancy: fear of type systems is fairly rational
12:16	zakwilson	Every Common Lisp implementation I can think of can shell out in *nix.
12:17	giacecco	savanni: what do you use to launch shell scripts from clj btw? I tried http://bit.ly/d6CHPu but it doesn't work
12:17	sexpbot	"Hugo Duncan : Shell Scripting in Clojure with Pallet"
12:17	stuartsierra	savanni: yes
12:17	SynrG	we're stuck with 1.5.x on VMS/Alpha, and we don't have our product yet ported to VMS/Itanium
12:17	savanni	giacecco: I grabbed a CLJ from somewhere, tweaked it a little bit. Admittedly, it is very slow launching, so I don't do it often.
12:17	SynrG	which has 1.6
12:18	zakwilson	People still use VMS?
12:18	savanni	http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Getting_Started#Create_clj_Script
12:18	sexpbot	"Clojure Programming/Getting Started - Wikibooks, collection of open-content textbooks"
12:18	wlangstroth	zakwilson: people still use FoxPro - don't you work in IT?
12:18	zakwilson	wlangstroth: freelance programmer, no big corporate stuff. Never IT.
12:18	SynrG	zakwilson: yes indeed. and HP's present obligations to the military will keep it going for years to come i'm sure.
12:19	SynrG	(though ours is not a military app)
12:19	biribau	i apologize about the interruption, can anyone explain me the difference between with-monad and do-monad? in haskell terms will be great
12:19	SynrG	i'm not putting much hope in it for the future tho. tbh, it's a pain in the arse trying to scrabble together the tools i need to do my job
12:19	zakwilson	I had the impression VMS was dead ten years ago, not that I have much to base that on.
12:20	wlangstroth	zakwilson: if you haven't seen the many dinosaurs roaming the earth, consider yourself lucky
12:20	SynrG	zakwilson: given the choice between being the administrator of a windows server and a VMS server, i'd take the VMS server any day
12:21	SynrG	too bad i make my living as a programmer :/
12:21	zakwilson	SynrG: I've never attempted to use Windows for much other than playing games, but I'm not shocked by that.
12:21	Chousuke	biribau: I don't think there's any haskell equivalent for it :/
12:21	Chousuke	biribau: with-monad establishes a context where all monad operations are in the specified monad
12:22	SynrG	wlangstroth: yes. we are tiny dinosaurs who have so far survived the meteor impact and aspire to some day evolving into birds
12:23	wlangstroth	SynrG: hey, the crocodiles and sharks made it ... I'm not sure which COBOL would be, but that's still big in banking
12:23	Chousuke	biribau: you can't use monadic functions without setting up the context first. and domonad is just the equivalent of the haskell do notation. If you use it within a with-monad context you don't need to explicitly specify the monad to use
12:23	Chousuke	biribau: though this is all from memory so I'm not sure if it's entirely accurate.
12:25	Chousuke	biribau: I suppose with-monad does what you get for "free" with the haskell type system
12:30	biribau	sorry i got dc, so when i have to use domonad insted of with-monad, is there any equivalence or relation between both?
12:30	Chousuke	hm, well, I already answered but apparently you missed it
12:31	biribau	yep, sorry, my router goes down frequently
12:31	Chousuke	looks like the logs haven't been updated yet either
12:32	Chousuke	biribau: http://gist.github.com/397513
12:33	Licenser	Hmm what is clojures state of having stuff run on multiple systems?
12:33	Chousuke	Licenser: similar to the JVM in general I suppose
12:33	Chousuke	Licenser: Clojure itself doesn't really address the problem at all.
12:33	Licenser	nods Okay so likely very minimal
12:34	Licenser	since I'd love to toy with that :P
12:34	biribau	Chousuke: thanks a lot, i think i got the point
12:37	Licenser	Well once I've my current crazy projects done I'll look into that kind of topic :P
12:37	wlangstroth	In Clojure, wouldn't it be rare for someone to actually need with-monad and do-monad?
12:37	wlangstroth	(I mean for custom monads)
12:37	replaca	Licenser: although many folks have done a lot of work on distributed Clojure systems with queuing and hadoop
12:38	Licenser	replaca: ah that is good to know :)
12:38	Licenser	never looked into hadoop
12:39	replaca	Licenser: look at e.g., swarmiji or cascalog
12:39	replaca	Licenser: the guys at Flightcaster and Rumi are doing this in the large
12:46	Licenser	replaca: thanks that looks quite interesting
12:50	replaca	Licenser: np
12:51	replaca	just didn't want people think that there's no distributed stuff going on in Clojure. that would be the furthest thing from the truth! :)
12:52	Licenser	replaca: nods Since clojure is good with one host concurency extinding it to multi host concurency would be quite cool
12:58	Plouj	is there a list of large companies using clojure?
13:00	peregrine81	Plouj: looking for a place to apply? :)
13:00	Plouj	no, just curious, for reference to show my employer :)
13:02	peregrine81	Plouj: I need an employer who is more flexible. If its not MS its not here.
13:02	technomancy	Plouj: this might be helpful: http://clojure.org/funders
13:02	Plouj	technomancy: oh yeah, thanks
13:03	Plouj	I saw that before, but forgot about it
13:03	sh10151	any Emacs JDEE users here?
13:04	sh10151	I am kind of irritated that it doesn't seem to support maven by default
13:04	Chousuke	you actually got it to work?
13:05	sh10151	JDEE? sure, for stuff that's not maven
13:05	sh10151	and i can manually do stuff for maven projects
13:05	sh10151	but that's annoying as well
13:06	sh10151	seems like one could start over with cedet in emacs 23.2 + swank-clojure
13:06	sh10151	instead of the comint-based beanshell thingy
13:11	naeu	In the ant.clj concurrency example, Rich uses defstructs and he suggests that he's doing this because defstructs share keys so they consume less memory. Is that the only reason to use them, or are there speed benefits too?
13:12	naeu	Also, if ant.clj was written for 1.2 would the rewrite be better to use defrecord?
13:12	AWizzArd	naeu: yes
13:13	naeu	AWizzArd: yes to both? :-)
13:14	chouser	naeu: defstructs primary benefit was space -- the speed improvements were usually negligible.
13:14	chouser	records are smaller and faster than structs
13:15	naeu	chouser: I'm taking a look at them now
13:16	naeu	how do you pull vals out of a record - is the only way to use interop-style mechanisms?
13:17	chouser	no, use keyword looked (:mykey arecord)
13:17	chouser	lookup
13:17	naeu	ah, I was trying it the other way round
13:17	naeu	which works for maps as they implement IFn
13:17	chouser	yeah
13:18	naeu	so looking up things in records is super fast
13:18	naeu	yet, is looking up things that have been since assocd to a record the same speed as map?
13:19	naeu	(as a map)
13:20	chouser	looking up keys that were not declared in the defrecord is done by falling back on a regular map. So essentially, eys.
13:20	chouser	yes
13:21	naeu	chouser: cool, thanks
13:22	powr-toc	Does anyone know why leiningen is no longer resolving user.home for me when I run lein deps?
13:22	naeu	so is it fair to say that everywhere we use a map with an assumed set of keys we should probably consider using a record now
13:22	powr-toc	I get the following error: Exception in "main" thread /home/rick/projects/foo/${user.home}/.m2/repository not found
13:26	chouser	naeu: consider, sure. There are probably still cases where a regular map still makes sense.
13:27	chouser	When prototyping it may not be worth locking yourself into a defrecord. maps print readably where defrecords don't (yet).
13:30	naeu	chouser: ok, cool. Also, what about persistence - maps are implemented by a shared tree structure and records (seem to be) implemented with regular classes. How might the implementation choices affect the performance when modifying large records?
13:31	chouser	naeu: maps don't share structure when smaller than 32 items, I believe, so records will at least match their performance up to that size.
13:31	chouser	more than 32 keys in a record is crazy talk! ;-)
13:32	naeu	haha, true
13:32	chouser	if you have real need for that, I guess you'd have to measure your use cases and see
13:32	naeu	I have very few real needs :-)
13:33	chouser	lookups will still be faster on a record, I would guess. Dunno about assoc.
13:33	AWizzArd	What I found out so far, for a WebStart application that is inside a signed jar and has the setting <security><all-permissions/></security> in its .jnlp file: a (:require [clojure.contrib.pprint :as p] ...) will cause a java.security.AccessControlException.
13:33	powr-toc	Does anyone know why my leiningen refuses to work properly?
13:34	powr-toc	It keeps looking for the .m2 repository in the pwd, e.g. /home/rick/projects/project/${user.home}/.m2/repository
13:34	powr-toc	when it should be /home/rick/.m2/repository
13:34	LauJensen	Guys, does anyone here know of a simple way to turn "Mon Mar 29 20:00:28 CEST 2010" into a UTC string, preferably one which conforms to RFC3339 and by extension RFC4287 3.3 ?
13:35	powr-toc	it used to work great; but now for reasons unknown to me it's failing
13:35	stuartsierra	LauJensen: java.util.SimpleDateFormatter
13:35	LauJensen	stuartsierra: thats for parsing isnt it ?
13:35	stuartsierra	it does both ways
13:35	powr-toc	I've tried reinstalling and it still fails :-\
13:36	LauJensen	great, I'll check it out, thanks
13:37	stuartsierra	LauJensen: If you google SimpleDateFormatter (or whatever it's called) plus the RFC, you'll find format strings to match.
13:38	LauJensen	Now thats a pro tip
13:38	stuartsierra	heh
13:38	Borkdude	I explored the Java Date API today, it was so ugly
13:39	stuartsierra	http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/java/text/SimpleDateFormat.html
13:39	Borkdude	And most of it was deprecated
13:39	sexpbot	"SimpleDateFormat (Java 2 Platform SE v1.4.2)"
13:39	Borkdude	.NET is so much nicer with that respect
13:39	Borkdude	in
13:39	stuartsierra	Borkdude: Yeah, but there are Java libs that make it nicer. People seem to like Joda Time.
13:39	Borkdude	Then I finally found something that I could use, but then GWT didn't emulate that... grrrr!
13:40	stuartsierra	So GWT emulates standard Java classes then?
13:40	Licenser	gaaaa
13:40	Borkdude	stuartsierra: yes, but not the Calendar class
13:40	stuartsierra	Borkdude: gee, that would be annoying
13:41	Borkdude	it has it's own special date formatting and parsing class which I used eventually
13:41	stuartsierra	ah
13:41	stuartsierra	makes sense I suppose, since they've got to manage the differences between java.util.Date and Javascript Date.
13:42	Borkdude	yes
13:42	LauJensen	$(-> "Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:11" java.util.Date. .toString java.util.Date.)
13:42	sexpbot	DENIED!
13:43	LauJensen	Thats a classic, it reads a string, make it its own, prints it, and then fails to read its own string representation
13:43	LauJensen	,(-> "Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:11" java.util.Date. .toString java.util.Date.)
13:43	clojurebot	#<Date Wed Apr 28 18:11:00 PDT 2010>
13:43	LauJensen	except, with clojurebot it works and in my repl it doesnt... hmmm
13:43	Borkdude	LauJensen: now Clojure doesn't promise to read it's printed things back into expressions now does it? ;-)
13:44	LauJensen	Borkdude: Sober API design demands it
13:44	LauJensen	But I dont understand why it works here and not at home... Must be a locale thing
13:44	Borkdude	LauJensen: yes, it should, I agree...
13:46	Borkdude	Wasn't there some kind of (symbol "run" "") problem monday
13:46	powr-toc	Okay, not sure what was going on but if I remove my .m2 directory and do lein self-install it works... any idea what was up?
13:46	Borkdude	with printed symbols and reading it back in, not working
13:47	chouser	yup
13:47	powr-toc	it seems like lein is picking up a broken dependency from my repository
13:47	Borkdude	,(symbol "run" "")
13:47	clojurebot	run/
13:48	stuartsierra	There's a longstanding debate as to whether 'symbol' and 'keyword' should validate their arguments.
13:49	technomancy	stuartsierra: heh; I have a patch from over a year ago for that.
13:49	stuartsierra	There are legitimate arguments both ways.
13:50	stuartsierra	e.g., if you're using symbols as interned strings and never printing them, why limit them to certain characters?
13:51	stuartsierra	But perhaps all such usage should be replaced with String/intern
13:54	Borkdude	I didn't actually get the whole problem with (symbol "run" "")
13:54	Borkdude	it generates a symbol run/
13:54	stuartsierra	,(read-string (pr-str (symbol "run" "")))
13:54	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: Invalid token: run/
13:55	chouser	,run/
13:55	clojurebot	Invalid token: run/
13:55	Borkdude	,(pr-str (symbol "run" ""))
13:55	clojurebot	"run/"
13:55	Borkdude	the reader can't handle run/?
13:55	Borkdude	,(doc read-string)
13:55	clojurebot	"([s]); Reads one object from the string s"
13:55	stuartsierra	no, it tries to read it as a namespace-qualified symbol, but there's no symbol name
13:56	Borkdude	ah, so symbol generates an incorrect symbol name is the problem?
13:56	stuartsierra	yes
13:56	Borkdude	and when is this good?
13:57	stuartsierra	Some people like to use symbols like strings, in the old Lisp tradition.
13:57	stuartsierra	Old Lisps had no strings, just symbols.
13:57	Borkdude	I see
13:57	Borkdude	that's an obscure reason then ?
13:58	stuartsierra	probably
13:58	Borkdude	can
13:58	stuartsierra	Rich has mused on allowing arbitrary characters in Clojure symbols, like Common Lisp.
13:58	Borkdude	can't the Clojure community just decided this is not 'idiomatic Clojure' ? :)
13:58	abrenk	The intro page to atoms (http://clojure.org/atoms) is missing a "related functions" section...
13:59	Borkdude	decide (-d)
13:59	stuartsierra	I think most of us already have.
13:59	abrenk	...took me a while to find reset! - I was wondering if I really had to use swap! with a (fn [_ x] x) argument.
14:00	abrenk	The intro only mentions swap! and compare-and-set!.
14:00	Borkdude	I can't recall why he did (symbol "run" "") but that must have been an old way of generating code, without ` ?
14:00	patrkris	I'm trying to make sure that I have understood obstruction freedom in terms of Clojure's STM. One of the chief reasons that Clojure's STM is not obstruction free, is that retries can occur during a transaction not just at the end at the commit phase. Is that correct? (Perhaps rhickey will be so kind to answer)
14:01	chouser	re: (symbol (str "run" "")) "It's for a very.... strange thing we're playing with here at the MIT AI lab" -- rlmcintyre
14:02	powr-toc	Does anyone know if leiningen works with enclojure?
14:03	powr-toc	I mean lein swank specifically
14:03	powr-toc	(which I guess is a different question entirely)
14:05	stuartsierra	Why do you want swank if you're using Enclojure?
14:07	technomancy	powr-toc: from what I've heard the easiest way to get IDE interop is to use lein pom
14:07	technomancy	I don't know if Enclojure implements a client for swank
14:10	Borkdude	chouser: what does (symbol (str "run" "")) generate for a symbol then
14:11	Borkdude	(str "run" "") is just "run" right?
14:11	chouser	hm.
14:12	chouser	indeed. perhaps I misunderstood his issue
14:12	chouser	,(= 'run (symbol (str "run" "")) (read-string (pr-str (symbol (str "run" "")))))
14:12	clojurebot	true
14:26	slyphon	technomancy: i'm a little confused, can you replace the functionality of swank-clojure-project using 'M-x slime' and a bunch of configuration?
14:28	pd	slyphon: yes
14:28	slyphon	pd: hrm
14:29	pd	swank-clojure-project is essentially a big (let ((verbose slime-config)) (slime))
14:29	pd	with handy hooks and maven support etc
14:30	slyphon	so you could, in theory use dir-local variables?
14:31	slyphon	rather .dir-locals.el
14:32	pd	barring some emacs antiquity that complicated that, i would think so
14:32	slyphon	hah
14:37	Borkdude	I wanted to try out this Vijual library from git
14:37	Borkdude	but leiningen has some trouble downloading the deps
14:37	Borkdude	can somebody take a look at this project.clj and see if it's still correct? http://github.com/drcode/vijual/blob/master/project.clj
14:38	slyphon	probably replace "1.1.0-alpha-SNAPSHOT" with "1.1.0"
14:38	slyphon	same for line 4
14:40	Borkdude	slyphon: trying
14:40	Borkdude	Repository central will be blacklisted... these msg scare me
14:43	Borkdude	it's still trying to download
14:43	slyphon	uh
14:44	slyphon	well, i'm no expert :/
14:44	slyphon	so take what i say with a grain of salt ;)
14:45	stuartsierra	So what should lazytest do with a form like (describe "The foo function" ...)
14:45	stuartsierra	Create a Var like the-foo-function-test ?
14:46	stuartsierra	Add some metadata somewhere?
14:46	ordnungswidrig	stuartsierra: what will the var / meta contain?
14:46	ordnungswidrig	sut
14:46	ordnungswidrig	stuartsierra: why would I care in the test?
14:46	slyphon	stuartsierra: you'd have to do some scrubbing on the input...
14:47	stuartsierra	The var/meta will contain the assertions for that test.
14:48	stuartsierra	You might care when you start reloading test files.
14:48	ordnungswidrig	ah, ok
14:48	stuartsierra	For instance, should I try to ensure that reloading the file replaces tests with the same name?
14:48	stuartsierra	I'm tempted to say no, and provide a function that unloads-and-reloads a namespace.
14:50	abrenk	Borkdude: seems like Maven cannot reach repo1.maven.org - do you use a proxy?
15:01	powr-toc	Is there any way to get an enclojure repl with a maven project; without moving to maven-clojure-plugin?
15:04	giacecco	quick question for you
15:04	Borkdude	abrenk: no
15:04	giacecco	if my English is good enough
15:04	giacecco	I am doing something simple as the following (def runtime (Runtime/getRuntime))
15:04	giacecco	(def my-proc (. runtime exec "ls -la"))
15:04	giacecco	(def my-proc-input (. my-proc getInputStream))
15:05	giacecco	the last command returns a java BufferedInputStream but I want a DataInputStream
15:05	abrenk	Borkdude: Can you open e.g. http://repo1.maven.org/maven2/org/clojure/clojure/1.1.0/clojure-1.1.0.pom in your browser?
15:06	giacecco	how do I force the casting of one into the other in Clojure?
15:06	Borkdude	abrenk: yes
15:06	Borkdude	abrenk: are you assuming I use the project.clj as is?
15:07	abrenk	Borkdude: Could you perhaps remove the :repositories keyword?
15:08	abrenk	Borkdude: leiningen has clojars as one of its default repositories so you should not need to specify it
15:09	Borkdude	abrenk: removed it, still 1 artifact is missing it says
15:09	giacecco	I found my solution! I replace the last of my three lines with (def my-proc-input (java.io.DataInputStream. (. my-proc getInputStream)))
15:09	Borkdude	giacecco: glad we could help you
15:10	giacecco	borkdude: sometimes, just explaining the problem to someone makes the solution pop up!
15:10	abrenk	Borkdude: which one's missing?
15:10	Borkdude	giacecco: yeh :)
15:10	Borkdude	org.clojure:clojure:jar:1.1.0-alpha-SNAPSHOT
15:10	Borkdude
15:11	abrenk	Borkdude: you should change that to "1.1.0".
15:11	abrenk	Borkdude: like slyphon recommended
15:11	Borkdude	abrenk: that's why I asked if you assumed if I used the project.clj as is
15:12	Borkdude	but I will now change that
15:12	Borkdude	again ;)
15:12	abrenk	okay :)
15:13	abrenk	that's why we need more releases referencing stable versions, all those -SNAPSHOT references only lead to problems if you don't really need the bleeding edge.
15:14	Borkdude	I removed the lib dir also
15:14	Borkdude	so it will get everything from scratch again
15:14	abrenk	Borkdude: nope
15:14	abrenk	Borkdude: lib is only a copy of the stuff in ~/.m2/repository
15:15	Borkdude	yes, with 'get' I mean copy or download ;)
15:15	abrenk	then you're right
15:15	Borkdude	abrenk: it works now
15:15	Borkdude	without changing the contrib
15:15	abrenk	I'd recommend changing contrib to 1.1.0 also.
15:16	abrenk	clojure and clojure-contrib have coordinated version IIRC
15:16	Borkdude	abrenk: when I changed both clojure and contrib in the project.clj it didn't work
15:16	Borkdude	so I won't change it ;)
15:17	AWizzArd	rhickey: does Clojure use its own class loader?
15:18	chouser	AWizzArd: of course, it has to in order to load bytecode dynamically.
15:19	lancepantz	AWizzArd: DynamicClassLoader
15:19	abrenk	Borkdude: strange, but oooookay. If you're happy, I'm happy.
15:21	AWizzArd	Does this class loader install a security manager?
15:21	abrenk	A vijual visualization of the dgraph nodes in my current project would be nice.
15:21	AWizzArd	When I require contrib pprint in a webstart application it fails. I granted in the .jnlp file <all-permissions />, but this only counts for the classloader that loads the app itself.
15:22	ivank	(loop [max5 (/ 1000 5) max3 (/ 1000 3)]
15:22	ivank	(+
15:22	ivank	(if (> max3 0) max3)
15:22	ivank	(if (> max5 0) max5)
15:22	ivank	(recur (- max5 0) (- max3 0))))
15:22	Hodapp	that was almost a drive-by pasteflood
15:23	ivank	this gets a unsupported op error. says recur must be in tail position
15:23	ivank	how is that not tail position
15:23	ninjudd	AWizzArd: DynamicClassLoader should delegate to the AppClassLoader before trying to load anything on its own
15:23	tomoj	you're adding it to something
15:23	pd	ivank: it's an argument to +
15:23	pd	+ is in the tail position
15:23	ivank	hmmm, ok
15:23	ivank	makes sense
15:24	tomoj	tail position doesn't just mean "at the bottom" :(
15:24	tomoj	it means you can't do anything with the result, just return it
15:24	AWizzArd	The JNLPClassLoader is the one that is granted all permissions.
15:25	ninjudd	AWizzArd: what does (.getParent DynamicClassLoader) return?
15:25	Borkdude	abrenk: vijual is now running on my system
15:26	ninjudd	AWizzArd: or may be (.getParent (.getParent DynamicClassLoader)), seems to wrap it twice
15:27	abrenk	Borkdude: then start vijualizing :-)
15:28	Borkdude	abrenk: now using contrib 1.1.0, don't know what I did wrong, but up and running. tnx
15:28	abrenk	you're welcome
15:28	Borkdude	abrenk: yes, I think I'm going to make this: http://i.imgur.com/9pKiI.jpg
15:29	abrenk	Borkdude: Yeah!
15:30	lpetit	hi
15:41	sids	how do I use a defrecord Abc declared in namespace pqr in namespace xyz?
15:42	stuartsierra	sids: import it
15:42	stuartsierra	it's a class
15:42	lpetit	sids: either you define a factory function for creating new instances, and your users will access it e.g. via (pqr/make-Abc ...), either you do as stuart said
15:42	sids	stuartsierra: tried, isn't woring, throws a ClassNotFoundException
15:43	sids	lpetit: I actually want to extend the defrecord, not create an instance of it
15:44	stuartsierra	sids: you can't extend defrecords
15:44	stuartsierra	oh you mean extend to a protocol?
15:44	lpetit	sids: "extend the defrecord" ?? You mean extend a Procol on this defrecord ?
15:44	sids	stuartsierra: yes, extend a protocol for this defrecord
15:45	sids	lpetit: sorry, I meant use it in a call to extend-protocol
15:46	stuartsierra	sids: Check the name. (defrecord Abc) in namespace com.example produces the class named "com.example.Abc"
15:46	stuartsierra	so you should be able to (import 'com.example.Abc) then
15:46	lpetit	stuartsierra: for extending a protocol on a type/record, isn't there another way than to explictly provide the class name ? Some times ago there was the possibility to use fully qualified keywords, no ?
15:46	stuartsierra	lpetit: yes, that's gone now that datatypes are real classes
15:47	sids	stuartsierra: that's what I tried, I'll recheck
15:47	stuartsierra	sids: does the name have any hyphens in it? Those become underscores in the class name
15:47	lpetit	stuartsierra: ok, I thought it was maybe still present, at least for the records part of the story
15:48	stuartsierra	lpetit: don't think so
15:49	lpetit	stuartsierra: you're right, of course.
15:50	sids	stuartsierra: it wasn't working because the two namespaces were rewuire'ing each other, fixed that and it works now; thanks
15:50	giacecco	quick question: I can't find where to download clojure and contrib APIs' docs
15:52	stuartsierra	giacecco: browse at http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/
15:53	stuartsierra	download from "download source" link on http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/tree/gh-pages
15:53	giacecco	that's it
15:54	stuartsierra	same for contrib, just change "clojure" to "clojure-contrib" in those URLs
15:56	giacecco	stuartsierra: great thanks
15:56	stuartsierra	giacecco: you're welcome
15:56	DuneMan	one can build docs from the a head checkout, right?
15:58	stuartsierra	I think you need to download the auto-doc tool, but then yes
16:07	dlowe	what build system is popular these days?
16:07	lancepantz	ant
16:07	lancepantz	just kidding.
16:08	lancepantz	not really though
16:08	wlangstroth	dlowe: I'm partial to leiningen
16:09	lancepantz	i'm actually currently putting in a lot of effort to migrate from ant to lein
16:09	wlangstroth	ant is good if you're used to configure-make-make install
16:09	dlowe	I'm used to asdf from the common lisp world
16:10	dlowe	lein looks comparable
16:11	wlangstroth	it is. It's a wrapper over maven, which can be intimidating
16:11	dlowe	lein is an abstraction layer over both maven and ant?
16:11	dlowe	hm
16:13	wlangstroth	I guess like anything else, once you get into the groove, it's fine (using project.clj)
16:14	wlangstroth	ant wouldn't be that bad, either, I guess, but lein's project file is in clojure
16:15	tomoj	another option is maven, either regular old maven or polyglot
16:27	Licenser	cooookies!
16:33	naeu	in agent functions what is the first param that's passed by the functions send and send-off?
16:34	chouser	the first arg of an agent action fn is the current value of the agent
16:35	chouser	,(send (agent :initial-value) #(prn :first-arg-is %1))
16:35	clojurebot	#<Agent@7f19e2: :initial-value>
16:35	chouser	meh
16:35	chouser	,promise
16:35	clojurebot	#<core$promise__7326 clojure.core$promise__7326@1ab4788>
16:35	chouser	,(let [first-arg (promise)] (send (agent :initial-value) #(deliver first-arg %1)) @first-arg)
16:36	clojurebot	:initial-value
16:36	Borkdude	wow, dotrace is cool
16:36	naeu	hmm, perhaps i'm not using agents in an idiomatic way then
16:36	naeu	i don't care about the previous value
16:36	naeu	the new value is obtained by io
16:37	naeu	I'm trying to create a poller for a 3D mouse
16:37	DuneMan	why not just have a thread that does the polling?
16:37	powr-toc	has anyone managed to get an enclojure REPL going inside a maven project?
16:38	naeu	DuneMan: I'm not really sure how to use threads in Java/Clojure yet
16:38	DuneMan	It seems to me agents are more appropriate for when you actually want to do message passing.
16:38	naeu	I read up on the ant.clj demo, and watched Rich's video which was really enlightening
16:38	DuneMan	naue: (doto (Thread. f "MyThread") (.start))
16:38	naeu	and in that he doesn't use any threads
16:39	naeu	well, not explicitly
16:39	DuneMan	since all clojure functions are runnable/callable, you can just pass a function to the Thread constructor and start it
16:39	DuneMan	and you're on your way.
16:39	DuneMan	for an example of this check out server-socket in clojure-contrib
16:40	naeu	oh ok
16:40	naeu	i just didn't think it was appropriate to call Java threads in my code like this unless I was doing interop
16:40	grzm	anyone recently getting an error with lein? http://gist.github.com/394692
16:41	grzm	clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Named
16:41	grzm	clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Named (help.clj:5)
16:41	naeu	I guess I'm still struggling to know when to look for something in clojure and when to look for something in java
16:41	technomancy	I did some looking on github, and only two of the last 100 projects used solely ant
16:41	technomancy	surprised me, but just a bit
16:42	DuneMan	naeu: I've been going with the "Look for the abstraction I want in the clojure docs, and clojure-contrib. If it's not there, write a clojure interface to the java way"
16:42	naeu	DuneMan: I'm not at ease enough to do that yet. I'm still flailing around :-)
16:42	DuneMan	but I'm pretty new to this, technomancy would probably have a better opinion to listen to.
16:43	abrenk	Hm. The problem with uncompiled Clojure code and project.clj - you can forget dependencies.
16:43	naeu	well, i got my poller working with agents :-)
16:43	abrenk	incanter-charts' project.clj does not declare a depency on incanter-stats but uses it.
16:44	DuneMan	i may just be too used to my normal way of desiging multi-threaded programs, instead of using agents all over.
16:45	powr-toc	Is there anything special about the REPL you get in labrepl/enclojure?
16:45	powr-toc	Because I can't seem to recreate it for other projects
16:45	abrenk	Any Incanter committer here?
16:45	liebke	abrenk: what function from stats is it?
16:45	naeu	DuneMan: I have the advantage/disadvantage of not really having done any serious multi-treaded programming
16:46	DuneMan	Ah, yeah. not having to unlearn old habits.
16:46	abrenk	liebke: incanter.stats :only (quantile quantile-normal cumulative-mean sd)
16:47	technomancy	~1d2
16:47	clojurebot	excusez-moi
16:47	technomancy	,1d2
16:47	clojurebot	Invalid number: 1d2
16:47	technomancy	clojurebot: 1d2
16:47	clojurebot	Excuse me?
16:47	technomancy	...
16:47	kotarak	,1r2
16:47	clojurebot	Radix out of range
16:47	defn	,Q
16:47	clojurebot	<-nil-<
16:47	hiredman	clojurebot: 1d6
16:47	clojurebot	Excuse me?
16:47	kotarak	,2r1
16:47	clojurebot	1
16:47	liebke	ah, you mean it doesn't show a dependency in the project.clj file? the module called incanter-core includes the namespace called incanter.stats
16:48	hiredman	nuts then
16:48	abrenk	liebke: Ah... incanter.stats is contained in incanter-core... strange.
16:48	liebke	yeah, a bit confusing.
16:48	liebke	incanter modules are based on third party dependencies
16:48	abrenk	liebke: I get java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError (charts.clj:1762)
16:48	liebke	incanter.core depends only on parallel colt
16:48	abrenk	liebke: Incanter 1.2.2
16:49	liebke	sounds like the error when you have conflicting versions of clojure
16:49	liebke	do you have a dependency on clojure 1.1
16:49	abrenk	Yeah.
16:49	liebke	the current version only works with clojure 1.2
16:49	hiredman	clojurebot: 1d6
16:49	clojurebot	Pardon?
16:49	abrenk	that explains a lot
16:49	hiredman	1d2
16:49	clojurebot	2
16:49	hiredman	bah
16:50	abrenk	liebke: What's the last version that works with Clojure 1.1?
16:50	liebke	1.0
16:50	abrenk	thx
16:52	pjstadig	~1d2
16:52	clojurebot	Pardon?
16:52	hiredman	1d2
16:52	clojurebot	1
16:52	hiredman	clojurebot: weirdo
16:52	clojurebot	I don't understand.
16:52	abrenk	liebke: okay, Maven shows a conflict between clojure version 1.1.0 and 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT
16:52	pjstadig	1d2
16:52	clojurebot	2
16:52	technomancy	we need a less violent version of botmack
16:52	technomancy	*botsmack
16:52	technomancy	something to express irritation without resorting to force
16:52	hiredman	or a more violent version of botsnack
16:53	liebke	abrenk: for version 1.0?
16:53	pjstadig	yes
16:53	abrenk	liebke: no, still 1.2.2
16:53	pjstadig	botslaponthewrists
16:54	liebke	okay
16:54	abrenk	liebke: I just wanted to check if I could have found that conflict using maven
16:54	liebke	ah
16:56	abrenk	The Dependency Hierarchy in Eclipse's POM Editor shows the conflict.
16:59	powr-toc	labrepl/enclojure seems to be broken
17:01	abrenk	liebke: there's no 1.0 release on clojars... but I guess for toying around and a first proof of concept I can use 0.9.0
17:01	powr-toc	We're using the latest enclojure and Netbeans 6.8 on Windows
17:01	liebke	abrenk: 1.0 wasn't compatible with clojars, go to http://repo.incanter.org
17:01	sexpbot	"Incanter: Statistical Computing and Graphics Environment for Clojure"
17:01	powr-toc	we no longer get syntax highlighting, nor do we see "Start project repl"
17:05	Plouj	java 7 isn't going to have tail call optimizations, is it?
17:06	AWizzArd	guys, after hours and hours of frustration, reading and trying things out I am now finally able to deploy any Clojure application (with gui and such) via WebStart. Applets would also be possible, with full user rights. Wow.
17:07	AWizzArd	no more html+js madness, incompatibilities, crossbrowser issues, stateless connections, etc
17:08	abrenk	liebke: okay, another repo, got that. The groupId is still org.incanter I've got the artifacts now, but still no luck:
17:08	ninjudd	AWizzArd: sweet! so, what was the classloader problem?
17:08	abrenk	user=> (use '(incanter core charts)) --> java.lang.IllegalAccessError: grid-apply is not public (charts.clj:19)
17:09	abrenk	But I will figure it out. Thanks for your help.
17:09	AWizzArd	ninjudd: the Clojure class loader simply grants no rights at all
17:09	liebke	I don't think grid-apply is in version 1.0
17:09	ninjudd	AWizzArd: hmm, so how did you fix it?
17:09	AWizzArd	and the <all-permissions /> tag only grants permissions for the JNPLclassLodaer
17:10	AWizzArd	ninjudd: I had to put my own grant_all.policy file into the signed jar that I deploy.
17:10	AWizzArd	Then, when the program starts I load this as a resource out of the jar and replace the System policy with mine.
17:10	ninjudd	huh, so is this a bug in the clojure classloader?
17:10	abrenk	liebke: my bad, I still had a copy of the 1.2.2 charts.clj in my src folder. Everythings alright now!
17:11	AWizzArd	After that I can (require 'my.real.programs.ns) and (eval '(my.real.programs.ns/real-startup-fn))
17:11	liebke	abrenk: great
17:11	AWizzArd	ninjudd: well, not a bug, but it does not assume to run in a sandbox
17:12	AWizzArd	Here a Sun employee explains that it is the responsibility of the classloader author to care about Permissions: http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4809366
17:12	sexpbot	"Bug ID: 4809366 all-permissions does not grant permission for getClassLoader()"
17:12	ninjudd	AWizzArd: are you ahead-of-time compiling your clojure files?
17:12	AWizzArd	yes
17:13	AWizzArd	my ant script compiles them, jars them, puts the policy file into the jar, signs it, and then moves everything into the right folder
17:15	_brian2_	DuneMan : hi
17:15	DuneMan	hi
17:15	ninjudd	oh. i don't understand classloader security managers very well, but i had assumed that if the class is loaded by the parent classloader then its security would apply
17:15	ninjudd	but i guess that isn't correct
17:17	_brian2_	DuneMan : i'm trying to use congomongo after authenticated login (which works becase I can do some things like grab the first record
17:17	_brian2_	but congomongo doesnt seem to work
17:17	AWizzArd	ninjudd: true, intuitively one would think so, but Sun confirmed that this should not be the case.
17:18	AWizzArd	Those security mechanisms are great, they allow you to let any application run, in principle, but when you want to use Clojure, then it means you really need a good manual to do it.
17:18	_brian2_	can't say something (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
17:19	DuneMan	nowhere in the traceback does it say anything about some code you wrote?
17:19	AWizzArd	Today I WebStarted my first "Hello World" with clj-pivot
17:20	_brian2_	no
17:20	Borkdude	When I do C-x k <RET> in Erc, is this a good way to leave a channel
17:22	DuneMan	_brian2_: Have the code down to something small enough that you can paste it on paste.lisp.org?
17:22	_brian2_	ok
17:23	DuneMan	also, Im assuming this is single-threaded?
17:23	_brian2_	yes
17:24	tomoj	Borkdude: #erc
17:25	Borkdude	tomoj: tnx
17:31	quotemstr	Is it possible to write Eclipse extensions in Clojure?
17:32	Chousuke	probably
17:32	zakwilson_	quotemstr: almost certainly. There's not much you can do in Java you can't do with Clojure's Java interop. I don't know if anybody has done it though.
17:32	Chousuke	clojure is just a jvm library. :P
17:32	_brian2_	Duneman : http://clojure.pastebin.com/L0eiMZQS (I left the password in, i'll change it later)
17:33	quotemstr	Ah, okay. We were talking in #emacs about how it ought to be just as easy to write editor extensions for a Java editor in Clojure as it is to write editor extensions for Emacs in Elisp.
17:35	Chousuke	well hm
17:35	_brian2_	DuneMan : http://clojure.pastebin.com/L0eiMZQS (I left the password in, i'll change it later)
17:35	Chousuke	that's not quite true, as a java editor will still have an inflexible (static, java-style) design
17:35	Chousuke	most of emacs' customisability comes naturally from it being implemented in lisp
17:36	AWizzArd	quotemstr: only with the difference that you need 5 university degrees to start "scripting" Eclipse or NetBeans, while as with Emacs you can start after a few hours.
17:36	quotemstr	I've never looked at the Eclipse and NetBeans extension APIs.
17:36	quotemstr	Are they really that bad?
17:37	AWizzArd	very evil stuff
17:37	ninjudd	technomancy: does lein pull down dependencies of dependencies automatically when i do 'lein deps'?
17:38	AWizzArd	layers over layers of layers of complexity and bureaucracy
17:38	quotemstr	Oh, wonderful.
17:38	quotemstr	And I thought Firefox with its components system was bad.
17:40	Licenser	for those interested in swing in clojure: http://blog.licenser.net/2010/05/11/the-ease-of-guis
17:40	sexpbot	"lice! : The ease of gui's."
17:40	tomoj	annotations are the only problem I've run into
17:41	quotemstr	cjl?
17:41	technomancy	ninjudd: yeah
17:41	tomoj	I think writing hudson plugins requires their use, unfortunately
17:41	quotemstr	Stupid TLAs.
17:42	ninjudd	technomancy: i was looking for the code that does it, but i suppose that comes from maven, right?
17:42	technomancy	yup
17:42	Chousuke	Licenser: I think the font on your blog is way too small :P
17:43	Licenser	?
17:44	ninjudd	technomancy: cool, do you know if native-deps pulls native-dependencies of your dependencies too?
17:44	Borkdude	Licenser: nice :) now I'll wait for a library that can convert that code to a website instead of swing ;)
17:45	technomancy	ninjudd: I haven't used it, but I suspect it does
17:45	ninjudd	how would it do it? by adding the dep to the pom file?
17:45	Licenser	Borkdude: look at the pivo lib
17:46	Borkdude	Licenser: it sounds delicious, but where can I find it?
17:47	zakwilson	Next time I need a GUI, I'll be using that.
17:47	technomancy	ninjudd: sorry, I don't know anything about native deps. see if you can catch dnolen when he's around.
17:47	ninjudd	technomancy: ok, thanks, i will
17:47	zakwilson	Because there are so many Java programmers out there who already know Swing?
17:48	quotemstr	Don't most?
17:48	Licenser	Borkdude: it's clj-pivot I think
17:48	zakwilson	Dunno. I wrote an applet once.
17:48	quotemstr	http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t101605.html
17:48	sexpbot	"Roundtrip: From Swing to Ajax and back!"
17:49	quotemstr	Then there's GWT.
17:49	Borkdude	zakwilson: GWT solves that problem partially, it lets you program in Java but it generates client side websites for you
17:49	zakwilson	I think Swing is widely regarded as horrid by the sort of people who would have the skill required to write an html/JS implementation of it.
17:50	Licenser	zakwilson: swing IS horrible. But it is shipped with java which is a big +
17:50	Borkdude	you mean Java is more horrible, so Swing looks better?
17:50	Licenser	Borkdude: no because you don't need to install anything extra, swing goes for a jvm app for free
17:51	quotemstr	AIUI, what's more horrible is that plenty of developers see Swing as a model to imitate.
17:51	zakwilson	Licenser: that's why I'd want to use it for a GUI app that had to run on a bunch of random machines, but I can't imagine wanting to use it for web stuff where you can run whatever you like on your server.
17:52	Licenser	zakwilson: me neither :P
17:53	quotemstr	zakwilson: SWT?
17:54	DuneMan	_brian2_: What happens if you use a fetch-one there?
17:54	_brian2_	same problem
17:55	_brian2_	can't call something
17:55	DuneMan	that is some oddly formatted clojure
17:55	_brian2_	hmm
17:55	_brian2_	why?
17:55	DuneMan	Well, part of it is that you're doing stuff really... weridly
17:55	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
17:56	DuneMan	mongo! does creates a new mongodb connection and binds it to mong-config
17:56	_brian2_	its a mixed o a bit
17:56	DuneMan	mongo-config
17:56	Borkdude	why does clojurebot say that out of the blue?
17:56	_brian2_	ok
17:56	technomancy	Borkdude: clojurebot is an evolving intelligence
17:57	technomancy	it's practicing for the Turing test finals at the end of the semester.
17:57	technomancy	hehe
17:57	DuneMan	_brian2_: So your creation of a mongo instance isn't being used by the congomongo calls
17:57	Borkdude	clojurebot: do you also do eliza kind of conversations?
17:57	clojurebot	Excuse me?
17:57	_brian2_	yea, I kind thoght that
17:57	Borkdude	clojurebot: you know what I'm talking about
17:57	clojurebot	Huh?
17:57	Borkdude	clojurebot: don't pretend
17:57	clojurebot	Pardon?
17:58	_brian2_	do I need to do more homewrok?
17:58	_brian2_	homework
17:58	_brian2_	like read congomongo code
17:59	DuneMan	_brian2_: You could patch congomongo to accept authentication information in the mongo! call. You could do the autentication directly on the (:mongo mongo-config) instance
17:59	_brian2_	ok
17:59	_brian2_	i'll look at that
18:01	DuneMan	you could make your own version of mongo! that does what you want, or even wraps the libary version.
18:01	DuneMan	lots of options, some better than others.
18:03	_brian2_	without knowing much, the java library athenticates on the db variable
18:03	_brian2_	but you're saying the mongo instance
18:03	_brian2_	?
18:04	_brian2_	mongo athenticates at the database level
18:04	DuneMan	ah, yes, on the db
18:05	_brian2_	so yo're comment above isn't correct, right?
18:05	DuneMan	yea. (:db mongo-config)
18:06	_brian2_	ok, I'll give it a try, thanks!
18:11	Borkdude	http://tryclojure.licenser.net/ is basically the same as tryclj.licenser.net, only a different presentation?
18:11	sexpbot	"TryClojure"
18:12	Borkdude	Licenser?
18:16	abrenk	Licenser: I will definately check out clj-swing... why do you like gridbag so much? clojure.contrib has such a nice wrapper around miglayout.
18:19	abrenk	Licenser: and take a look at dgraph - nice way to propagate state changes to dependent components
18:20	srcerer	Just watching some of the Clojure stuff on infoq and wondering about the fifth reference type. Is that what 1.1 added as transients, or something else that was/will be added?
18:21	Licenser	abhi__: abrenk I took grid layout from stuarts example
18:21	Licenser	abrenk: I mean
18:21	Licenser	and I think miglayout is an aditional dependency right?
18:21	abrenk	yep
18:22	Licenser	I qouls pewdEW RO FO QIRHOUR
18:22	abrenk	but it's really much more fun that gridbag
18:22	Licenser	Borkdude: it has the same roots I took some modifcations to the code and added a diferent gui
18:27	Licenser	Borkdude: Raynes and me decided we'd need something like tryhaskel, and since we made clj-sandbox we decided we should just make it. So he started and I offered to do the hosten. After a while we figured to aproach it on two ways see what works out better in the end :) so currently there are two forks of the same thing
18:28	Borkdude	Licenser: what are basically the two approaches?
18:29	Licenser	currently mostly forms (all self made) vs pure JS/AJAX (and (adjusted) scripts from other places that made stuff already)
18:30	Borkdude	Licenser: I think I will mention your version on my Twitter account @cleotd
18:31	Borkdude	it's only maybe annoying that newbe's can't do def or defn
18:32	Licenser	Borkdude: yea it's a security thing, since I did not came up with a good way to not make the service slowly die for out of memory exceptions when you can def stuff :P
18:33	Borkdude	ideone.com supports it
18:34	quotemstr	Licenser: Put each session in a sandbox, limit the maximum size of each sandbox, and expire sandboxes with a timeout?
18:34	Licenser	quotemstr: yes but limit the size is the hard question and I'm not sure how clojure handles deleted namespaces
18:34	DuneMan	restart the jvm once a minute!
18:34	quotemstr	Licenser: Too complicated. Use separate unix processes.
18:35	Licenser	neither of those seems like a clean solution to me :(
18:36	quotemstr	I think of process isolation as a very clean solution myself.
18:36	DuneMan	sometimes I prefer the solutions that I think of immediately to the clean ones
18:36	Raynes	Borkdude: you can use def and defn in mine, btw.
18:36	Borkdude	maybe you can host it on GAE and then memory is not your problem anymore? ;)
18:37	Borkdude	Raynes: ah, +1
18:38	Borkdude	another thing I miss is parenthesis matching and incompleted input throws and exception
18:38	Borkdude	instead of the possibility to complete it
18:39	Borkdude	so maybe those would be nice features to add, but I'm sure you have lots on your lists already?
18:47	_brian2_	DuneMan : in my namespace I have (:use somnium.congomongo) , so like (mongo!) true , but it doesn't know what this is "unable to resolve symbol: mongo-config
18:50	lancepantz	anyone used the repl-fix branch of lein with any luck?
18:53	DuneMan	brian: mongo-config is in somnium.congomongo.config: (use '[somnium.congomongo.config :only [mongo-config]])
18:53	DuneMan	then you can use @mongo-config
18:53	_brian2_	hmm, ok
18:53	DuneMan	(reading congomongo.clj is useful :-))
18:54	_brian2_	yea, I am still learning clojure ;-)
18:54	technomancy	lancepantz: it's been merged to master; shouldn't need the branch anymore
18:55	lancepantz	ah, cool- thanks
19:01	technomancy	how do you define your own .meta method in reify?
19:06	technomancy	I thought defrecord was the one that didn't let you define your own meta semantics
19:24	ivank	how do i add an item to the end of a list/vector?
19:28	technomancy	ivank: conj adds to the end of a vector. there's no good way to add to the end of a list.
19:28	powr-toc	depends on the concrete type... lists grow at the front, vectors the end... conj will do this
19:32	ivank	ah,
19:32	ivank	cheers
19:35	ivank	when nesting loops, can i get a recur on the inner to go to the outer
19:42	MadWombat	Hello
19:43	powr-toc	ivank, not that I know of... why do you need loops?
19:43	ivank	thinking in wrong mindset?
19:43	powr-toc	most likely :-)
19:44	powr-toc	what are you trying to do?
19:44	ivank	find all primes up to n
19:44	powr-toc	try looking at map
19:45	ivank	don't see how map works for this
19:45	powr-toc	combining it with filter should work for a simple brute force solution
19:46	powr-toc	or use a list comprehension (for)
19:46	ivank	ugh, for is ugly
19:47	powr-toc	(filter is-prime? (iterate inc 0))
19:52	ivank	that'll do the whole is-prime? every time though,
19:52	technomancy	powr-toc: not if you def it to a top-level var
19:52	technomancy	course then you hold the head
19:53	powr-toc	technomancy: naturally you wouldn't want to do that :-)
19:55	powr-toc	ivank: yes, it's the brute force method... do you need to use a sieve?
19:55	lancepantz	technomancy: using the lein 1.2 master, 'lein repl' just 'prints [null] user=>' and exits, have you seen that before?
19:56	lancepantz	guess that quote should be after prints
19:56	powr-toc	because you could probably memoize is-prime? if memory isn't a concern...
19:57	ivank	memoize?
19:58	powr-toc	,memoize
19:58	clojurebot	#<core$memoize__6555 clojure.core$memoize__6555@b1babb>
19:58	powr-toc	,(doc memoize)
19:58	clojurebot	"([f]); Returns a memoized version of a referentially transparent function. The memoized version of the function keeps a cache of the mapping from arguments to results and, when calls with the same arguments are repeated often, has higher performance at the expense of higher memory use."
19:59	ivank	ah, not quite
19:59	ivank	since im looking the list of primes, i can use the list of n primes to calculate the n+1 prime
20:02	powr-toc	you mean the sieve of erastothenese
20:02	DuneMan	I got robbed at gunpoint once while writing a multithreaded prime sieve
20:02	MadWombat	can someone explain hpw struct-maps are optimized? what are the cases where struct-map is faster than a regular hash-map?
20:03	DuneMan	and my poorly ventialated dual AMD Athalon freaked out 'cause I had a bug.... and the machine locked up tight from overheating
20:03	DuneMan	... unpleasant.
20:03	DuneMan	Athelon ? how do you spell that
20:03	DuneMan	Athlon
20:04	powr-toc	MadWombat: they share their keys... so checks are on identity not equality; and you save memory as the keys are only stored once
20:05	MadWombat	powr-toc: OK, thanks
20:06	DuneMan	My coworker bob says "I think they're implemented under the hood as java classes"
20:06	DuneMan	not sure if that's true, but it would make sense. Key access would just be field lookup.
20:09	powr-toc	DuneMan: all clojure collections are implemented in java right now :-) ... but no, they're not classes (at least in 1.1) they're implemented in terms of IPersistentMap
20:12	powr-toc	I think your coworkers thinking of records, due in 1.2; which are implemented as classes
20:42	alexyk	is there a faster way to negate a map than,
20:42	alexyk	,(->> {:a 2 :b 1 :d 4} (map (fn [[k v]] [k (- v)])) (into {}))
20:42	clojurebot	{:a -2, :b -1, :d -4}
20:42	alexyk	generally, is the a fun to work on a map and leave it a map?
20:43	lancepantz	i always do it as you did
20:43	lancepantz	doesn't mean i'm right though :)
20:44	alexyk	lancepantz: well it works! BTW I think I understand why tokyo was slow to write on my ext3
20:44	alexyk	it spent all the time in kjournald
20:44	alexyk	folks reported turning journaling off in FS to speed up TC
20:44	alexyk	ext3 seems especially bad after 2-3 GB
20:45	lancepantz	oh wow, that's good to know
20:45	alexyk	so you guys can try to format some fast crappy FS to compare write speeds on your giant mormon graph :)
20:46	lancepantz	do you remember what your benchmarks were after switching?
20:46	alexyk	lancepantz: I didn't do it yet, I just googled for tokyo cabinet kjournald and it fished out a stackoverflow answer like above
20:47	alexyk	but I've seen kjournald dominate my top during writes, with 1.7% CPU load
20:49	alexyk	lancepantz: the fun thing is, loading without :prrotobuf-load is not much slower than with it. First I created protobufs but not db-init with :load and :dump, and read is 270 secs vs 200 with :load protobuf-load...
20:49	ninjudd	alexyk: i'd be interested to know how much of the slowness was due to ext3 and how much was due to not using protobufs
20:50	ninjudd	alexyk: did using protobuf dump affect the write time at all?
20:51	alexyk	ninjudd: for now, I do the following. First, I launch 8 agents protobuffing adjacency lists of each node. Now I have a list of the form, [[u1 proto1] [u2 proto2]...] -- conj'd after all agents finish. Then I hand it off to tokyo write with protobuf-dump. For 3 mil nodes, I get 400 seconds for protobuffing. And 500 seconds best write, much faster than before -- when I'm lucky; or 3,900 seconds today when I'm not.
20:52	alexyk	btw, manual map/reduce works faster than pmap; or it may be a fluke.
20:52	alexyk	so protobuffing seems to indeed speed things up
20:53	alexyk	ninjudd: I wonder if kyoto cabinet's concurrency is better
20:53	alexyk	perhaps then we can read/write in threads
20:54	powr-toc	alexyk: I don't know if it's slower or not, but you can also (merge-with - my-map my-map my-map) :-)
20:54	alexyk	powr-toc: that surely would set some Java people's hair on fire :)
20:55	alexyk	powr-toc: that deserves to be measured on a huge map
20:55	powr-toc	sure is combustible :-)
20:56	ninjudd	alexyk: from what i understand, kyoto is slightly slower for a single thread but may be faster for multiple threads
20:56	ninjudd	it would be an interesting test
20:57	alexyk	ninjudd: yeah, another option
20:57	ninjudd	i'm working on a new version of jiraph that uses deftype and has pluggable storage engines, so i should be able to support kyoto pretty easily
20:57	alexyk	ninjudd: but anything protobuffering is simple to pmap anyways
20:58	alexyk	ninjudd: cool, worth giving JE another chance
20:58	alexyk	sice JE does parallel reads just fine
20:58	alexyk	since
20:59	ninjudd	sure, JE was much slower for us
20:59	ninjudd	but it would be a good option for people who want a pure Java implementation
22:13	chessguy	running clojure inside of eclipse, and every time i try to "run as clojure repl" i get an unhandled event loop exception. anyone else had this?
23:27	peregrine81	I'm trying to setup compojure+appengine, I'm using leiningan and if I use org.buntin/compojure "0.4.0-SNAPSHOT" as opposed to compojure in my project.clj I can get it to work. But if I use regular compojure it gives me a File not found could not locate compojure_init.class
23:46	technomancy	so: considering including the lein-swank plugin in swank-clojure.
23:46	technomancy	it's like 17 lines
23:46	technomancy	yea or nay?