#clojure – 2010-04-15

2010-04-15

00:37	MrEvil	I was wondering if their is a construct somewhere in clojure similar async {} in F#. An easy way to spawn a bunch of asynchronus concurrent tasks whoes results get returned in a collection.
00:42	hiredman	,(doc pvalues)
00:42	clojurebot	"([& exprs]); Returns a lazy sequence of the values of the exprs, which are evaluated in parallel"
00:42	MrEvil	ooh thankyou
00:57	Scriptor	is anyone going to the clojure meetup in nyc tomorrow?
00:57	vIkSiT	hmm, so I got lein-swank installed; i can load the file in and sent it to the REPL - but for some reason, the file only compiles - don't see any output.
00:57	vIkSiT	Is there something after Cc Ck I should be using in emacs?
00:57	technomancy	vIkSiT: it might be in the inferior-lisp buffer
00:57	technomancy	generally you shouldn't get output at compile-time though
00:57	technomancy	I mean, unless you're just experimenting
00:58	vIkSiT	technomancy, ah. so yes, in this case, I was basically following one of your posts and getting an uberjar built, and invoking java -jar uberjar.jar
00:58	vIkSiT	now I'm trying to get the program to run through swank.
00:59	vIkSiT	so I guess, previously, I would just Mx slime, open up a new clj file, and use Cc Ck to send it to the REPL
00:59	vIkSiT	I was wondering how I'd see the output of this -main function the same way?
01:01	technomancy	just run (-main) from that ns if I'm understanding you correctly
01:02	vIkSiT	oh I See. all I had to do was go to the REPL, change (ns test1), and then everytime I run Cc Ck - I can see the output!
01:06	technomancy	not sure I follow, but if it's working that's great! =)
01:13	lancepantz	technomancy: is there a way i can set jvm options for lein tasks?
01:14	vIkSiT	btw, anyone here use aquamacs?
01:15	vIkSiT	technomancy, :) [the default ns was user; the program I was trying to run was in ns test1. as a result, I had to shift the ns before I could call (-main)]
01:19	vIkSiT	hey Fossi
01:20	Fossi	hi vIkSiT
01:20	Fossi	hacking some clojure?
01:21	vIkSiT	Fossi, indeed :) are you by any change trying CS with clojure?!
01:21	vIkSiT	chance*
01:22	Fossi	nope
01:22	Fossi	should be working through the java bindings though
01:22	Fossi	but i guess it's real ugly
01:22	vIkSiT	yes, I guess its going to be hard to wrap around though
01:23	Fossi	i guess it'd be better to embed clojure
01:23	vIkSiT	hmm clojure as a scripting language.
01:48	MrEvil	Expressions like the following always give me the error regaurding recur not in the tail position due to the presence of the (def) in the else clause of the first if. I was wondering if there is something that I should be doing but am not.
01:48	MrEvil	(defn __findIntegerTriaglesWithIntRatio [p a bseq output]
01:48	MrEvil	(if (empty? bseq)
01:48	MrEvil	output
01:48	MrEvil	((def a (findArea p a (first bseq)))
01:48	MrEvil	(if (integerRatio? a p)
01:48	MrEvil	(recur p a (rest bseq) (conj output a))
01:48	MrEvil	(recur p a (rest bseq) output)))))
01:49	arbscht	MrEvil: use paste.lisp.org or gist.github.com or something :)
01:50	MrEvil	http://gist.github.com/366723
01:50	MrEvil	thanks for taking a look
01:50	MrEvil	it's the presence of line 4 that always gives me trouble
01:50	arbscht	MrEvil: use def at the top level for var declarations, not inside functions
01:51	MrEvil	but what if the call is only neccessary in an else clause of the if statement do i just have to trust that the JVM will optimize it away?
01:51	arbscht	MrEvil: your function would be better written in a high-level functional style. probably no need to use recur
01:52	MrEvil	i was optimizing my solution for euler #283, getting rid of some of the multiple passes
01:53	MrEvil	my first solution only used map and filter but i was iterating through the collection multiple times
01:56	MrEvil	am i misunderstanding the purpose of def?
01:58	arbscht	I think so. def is for global vars. I guess you want 'let', for local bindings
01:58	MrEvil	ok that's just what i was going to ask
01:58	MrEvil	thanks
01:59	MrEvil	that clears things up
02:30	LauJensen	Morning team
02:32	polypus	you didn't sleep long Lau
02:32	LauJensen	hmm, I think I got at least 6 good hours :)
02:32	polypus	time flies when you're clojuring i guess
02:33	LauJensen	True
02:34	polypus	anyways time for me to hit the sack :)
02:34	LauJensen	Nighty night
03:29	LauJensen	Heads up: I've pushed a non AOT compiled version of ClojureQL to Clojars, should work with all versions now 1.0+
04:27	AWizzArd	LauJensen: is the non-aot version the only one, or do you want to offer that one plus a 1.2aot’ed one?
04:28	LauJensen	AWizzArd: Clojuresque 1.0.0 defaulted to AOT compilation, which was why I was pushing AOTed jars, it was a mistake. So switching to Clojuresque 1.3.0 fixed that bug :)
04:28	AWizzArd	k
06:07	vegai	COJ defines this: (def AND #(and %1 %2))
06:08	vegai	what's the point? Aren't 'AND' and 'and' equivalent?
06:08	vegai	it's used like so: (def rank (zipmap [- + * / AND =] (iterate inc 1)))
06:09	vegai	ahh, I should put these in the repl before I ask :)
06:09	vegai	user=> (def rank2 (zipmap [- + * / and =] (iterate inc 1)))
06:09	vegai	java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/and (NO_SOURCE_FILE:10)
06:09	vegai	so 'and' is a macro
06:10	vegai	by the way, doc is a great idea. Whoever figured that it should be in there deserves a reward
06:12	Chousuke	runtime access to documentation is an old idea :)
06:13	vegai	Chousuke: yes, but mindboggingly, new languages/platforms are still being created without it
06:13	vegai	hmm
06:13	vegai	the doc for iterate says that f must be free of side-effects
06:13	vegai	but there are no checks on this
06:14	vegai	I can do (defn a [] (println "1")) (iterate a 1)
06:14	Chousuke	it's not possible to check for side-effects
06:14	vegai	what's the consequence of having side-effects in a fun that's called from iterate?
06:14	Chousuke	well it'll just work in a very weird way
06:15	Chousuke	since iterate creates a sequence
06:16	Chousuke	,(take 5 (iterate (fn [x] (print "f: " x) (inc x)) 1)))
06:16	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5)
06:16	vegai	yeah...
06:16	Chousuke	hmm, where did the print output go? :(
06:16	vegai	I come from a bit of haskell background, so I take "must be free of side-effects" rather seriously
06:17	Chousuke	well, haskell has a type system that can help you differentiate between side-effecting functions and "really pure" functions
06:17	Chousuke	but Clojure doesn't, so you're just expected to do the right thing.
06:18	vegai	functions can have metadata, right?
06:18	Chousuke	as of 1.2, yes.
06:18	Chousuke	(which is still unreleased)
06:18	vegai	couldn't there be a :pure for instance?
06:18	SynrG	in programming clojure in examples/taslklist.clj i don't understand where 'parser' comes from
06:19	Chousuke	technically yes, but I don't think that's feasible :/
06:19	vegai	could it be so that a missing :pure from a function definition infects all the functions that call that function?
06:19	AWizzArd	vegai: yes, I suggested something similar also in the past.
06:19	Chousuke	vegai: dynamic binding could break that easily
06:19	AWizzArd	In principle Clojure can do more type checking in the future, optionally.
06:20	Chousuke	AWizzArd: if someone writes the type system, yes. :P
06:20	vegai	yeah... just a random thought.
06:20	AWizzArd	Right, a good bit of work will be required, but it can be an optional type system.
06:21	Chousuke	but I think the general sentiment is that any static type checking must remain completely optional and degrade gracefully when combined with "fully dynamic" code.
06:21	AWizzArd	Could be even on top of FindBugs.
06:21	AWizzArd	Chousuke: yes, 100% optional.
06:22	Chousuke	It's definitely not a simple problem to solve, but still an interesting one
06:24	AWizzArd	I may remember to look at this posting: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/7a48f48e4b197a15/9538dbdb1549f1c6
06:24	AWizzArd	Chousuke: yes, difficult, but could be very useful
06:24	Chousuke	sure
06:24	AWizzArd	Good morning rhickey. Thanks for updating Master to include defrecord :-)
06:25	rhickey	AWizzArd: you're welcome, some rough edges still to work out today I'm sure
06:28	AWizzArd	What I found so far is that a (.readObject ois) on a (defrecord Foo [a b c] java.io.Serializable) throws java.lang.ClassNotFoundException
06:32	AWizzArd	Code was basically: (do (defrecord Foo [a b c] java.io.Serializable) (def fos (java.io.FileOutputStream. "/file.ser")) (def oos (java.io.ObjectOutputStream. fos)) (.writeObject oos (Foo. 1 2 3)) (.close oos) (def fis (java.io.FileInputStream. "c:/file.ser")) (def ois (java.io.ObjectInputStream. fis)) (.readObject ois))
06:35	rhickey	AWizzArd: if you are trying to do dynamic serialization, that won't work as I said yesterday, only with AOT
06:36	rhickey	that won't work, as I said yesterday
06:36	AWizzArd	Ok, I will retry it later again with an AOTed version.
06:41	vegai	recur confuses the hell out of me
06:42	AWizzArd	vegai: just think of normal tail recursion
06:42	AWizzArd	where you would place the name of the function that you recursively want to call, just put recur in.
06:42	vegai	the example here, http://clojure.org/special_forms#recur
06:43	AWizzArd	yes, imagine the example as you would write it now, without using recur
06:43	vegai	does the recur go back to the loop there?
06:43	AWizzArd	it would look identical, only replace "recur" with "factorial"
06:43	AWizzArd	If you understand that function then, then you understand recur :)-
06:44	vegai	oh, that's it?
06:44	AWizzArd	recur returns to the innermost loop or function
06:44	vegai	there's an example in COJ that uses in the same function both recur and the function's name
06:44	vegai	like so
06:44	AWizzArd	(loop1 (loop2 (loop3 ... (recur -> goes to loop3))))
06:44	vegai	(defn infix* [[a b & [c d e & more]]]
06:44	vegai	(cond
06:45	vegai	(vector? a) (recur (list* (infix* a) b c d e more))
06:45	vegai	...
06:45	vegai	see that? there's both a call to recur and infix*
06:46	vegai	granted, it does say below the example that I shouldn't perhaps try to understand this yet :)
06:47	Chousuke	recur is not really different from ordinary recursion; it's just limited to tail recursion so it can be optimised
06:48	Chousuke	a function can call itself as many times as it needs, and in that example one recursive call is tail-recursive so it can be done with recur, and the other is not so there is a call to the function
06:48	vegai	ah, it's for the tco?
06:48	vegai	I was a bit confused about the documentation of recur
06:48	Chousuke	yeah
06:49	Chousuke	recur exists because the JVM doesn't guarantee TCO
06:49	vegai	it says "There is no tail-call optimization" but I misinterpreted the context of that
06:49	vegai	I thought it was saying that recur doesn't have a tco
06:49	Chousuke	though recur has other benefits too; it actually checks if the call is in tail position
06:49	vegai	yes, that's nice
06:51	Chousuke	I think there is no reason to do away with recur even if the JVM someday will guarantee TCO :)
06:52	Chousuke	I would also be in favour of a recur-at special form if it were possible to implement one to efficiently support mutual recursion.
07:02	SynrG	let's try again, since conversation has settled down (and without typos :) in Programming Clojure, i understand all of this example except where 'parse' comes from (on line 16): http://github.com/stuarthalloway/programming-clojure/blob/master/examples/tasklist.clj
07:02	SynrG	anyone?
07:02	vegai	yeah, it's not a bad idea generally. Has the potential of making recursive code somewhat clearer too
07:04	Chousuke	SynrG: it is a method of the SAXParser class
07:04	Chousuke	SynrG: note the .. form
07:04	SynrG	oh, that's included in '..'! doh. i thought i got all of those
07:05	Chousuke	This is the main reason I prefer (-> foo .bar)... it makes java methods explicit so you won't mistakenly see them as clojure functions
07:06	SynrG	so the file object is coerced to a BufferedReader, passed to an InputSource constructor, which returns an object which is passed to SAXParserFactory.newInstance.newSAXParser.parse
07:06	SynrG	this java interop stuff is a bit dense
07:07	Chousuke	SAXParserFactory.newInstace().newSAXParser().parse(new InputSource(...))
07:07	SynrG	it took multiple reads through this example to get it all
07:07	Chousuke	(the clojure code actually has fewer parentheses)
07:07	SynrG	and it doesn't help that i am only casually familiar with Java :P
07:08	SynrG	anyway, thanks. pleased to finally get every line of code
07:09	SynrG	the book glosses over with "this is boilerplate for ..."
07:11	Chousuke	SynrG: so to reiterate, the code creates a new factory instance by using the newInstance method of Class (not of SAXParserFactory), then calls the newSAXParser() method of that instance which returns the actual parser, and then the parse method of that is called with the InputSource and handler as its arguments.
07:12	Chousuke	at least, I think that's the case :P
07:12	SynrG	ahh. key to understanding this is that ...
07:12	SynrG	(.. System getProperties (get "os.name"))
07:12	SynrG	and
07:12	SynrG	(.. System (getProperties) (get "os.name"))
07:13	SynrG	are equivalent
07:13	Chousuke	right.
07:13	Chousuke	though you should prefer (-> System .getProperties (.get "os.name"))
07:13	Chousuke	(because I think it's clearer)
07:14	SynrG	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: getProperties for class java.lang.Class (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
07:14	Chousuke	oops
07:15	LauJensen	I think you should go with
07:15	LauJensen	,(System/getProperty "os.name")
07:15	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.util.PropertyPermission os.name read)
07:15	LauJensen	Much much clearer :)
07:15	Chousuke	I guess it has to be (-> (System/getProperties) (.get ...))in this case :/
07:16	SynrG	LauJensen: well. i was just using (doc ..) to try to understand ..
07:16	Chousuke	which is even better since it's explict about getProperties being a static method
07:16	SynrG	this is an exercise in code reading, not in learning the most concise way to express it :)
07:16	SynrG	but i will keep this in mind
07:16	SynrG	Chousuke: and back to what you said above. "... newInstance method of Class (not of SAXParserFactory) ..." how can i tell?
07:17	Chousuke	SynrG: I think in this case I might be wrong actually
07:17	Chousuke	.. seems to have different semantics for static/instance method resolution than rest of clojure. confusing
07:17	SynrG	hmm
07:18	Chousuke	(.foo String) is calling the .foo method of the Class object that represents String
07:18	Chousuke	but (.. String foo) seems to be resolved as a call to a static method of String; ie. String/foo
07:19	Chousuke	Which just reinforces my point. Avoid .. :P
07:20	LauJensen	.. precedes -> by almost a year I think
07:20	SynrG	LauJensen: and thus, not used in the text?
07:21	LauJensen	They are 2 different things entirely, .. is just a helper for ., where -> has much broader application
07:21	LauJensen	So I think you can comfortable take Chousuke's advice
07:22	Chousuke	.. might be more convenient in some cases but I think -> makes things more explicit and is thus better
07:22	Chousuke	-> is just a way to transform (-> foo bar whatever) to (whatever (bar foo))
07:23	Chousuke	it's only incidentally that it contains most of ..'s functionality.
07:24	SynrG	the doc lacks examples. but i think i follow
07:24	Chousuke	(-> "foobar" (subs 3) .toUpperCase)); can't do this with ..
07:25	SynrG	Chousuke: minus your extra final paren :)
07:25	LauJensen	SynrG: -> and ->> made the most sense to me, when I just looked at the arguments as lists that got an extra argument. for -> its the second arg to the list, for ->> is the last
07:29	SynrG	,(-> "foobar" (subs 3) (str "quux"))
07:29	clojurebot	"barquux"
07:30	SynrG	,(str (subs "foobar" 3) "quux")
07:30	clojurebot	"barquux"
07:32	SynrG	,(->> "foobar" (str "baz") (str "quux"))
07:32	clojurebot	"quuxbazfoobar"
07:34	SynrG	ok. makes sense
07:54	AWizzArd	rhickey: so far there is no automatic static Foo/create method right? And also no create-Foo?
07:55	rhickey	AWizzArd: right
07:57	AWizzArd	Are they still planned or will it be (Foo. ...)?
08:09	AWizzArd	~seen ordnungswidrig
08:09	clojurebot	ordnungswidrig was last seen quiting IRC, 28261 minutes ago
08:24	AWizzArd	rhickey: all my use cases were so far (Foo. arg1 ... argn). Didn’t need a create-Foo. Basically it won’t matter if it is Foo. or Foo/create. What are your plans for Foo/create and create-Foo?
08:36	rhickey	AWizzArd: using Foo. spreads the hostiness all over, also can have no associated logic (arg processing etc)
08:45	AWizzArd	ok, so minimum we want is a Foo/create I guess
08:47	AWizzArd	although create-Foo would indeed be nicer :)
08:48	AWizzArd	^^
08:48	cemerick	AWizzArd: what's wrong with (Foo ...)?
08:50	liwp	hostiness is a great term!
08:50	rhickey	cemerick: Foo is the name of a class, will be auto-imported
08:50	sattvik	Would Foo/create possibly conflict with interfaces that declare a create function?
08:51	rhickey	sattvik: not in Java-land, where instance and static methods are distinct
08:53	AWizzArd	cemerick: rhickey explained this has to go away, I think it had to do with name clashes.
08:53	AWizzArd	cemerick: today it is: (defrecord Foo [a b]) ... (Foo. 10 20) ==> #:Foo{:a 10, :b 20}
08:54	cemerick	Yeah, I can see the conflict. I quite liked being able to use Foo as a ctor fn.
08:54	AWizzArd	cemerick: maybe we will soon get create-Foo as a replacement :)
08:54	AWizzArd	plus defrecords produce stable class names
08:55	AWizzArd	cemerick: but serialization still works only for AOTed records.
08:55	rhickey	AWizzArd: how could it otherwise, seriously?
08:55	cemerick	AWizzArd: no other option
08:56	rhickey	cemerick: I am interested in options for the factory fns, I brought it up yesterday
08:56	cemerick	hrm, sorry I missed that
08:57	cemerick	rhickey: you know my distaste for magically-created defs, i.e. create-Foo
08:57	rhickey	no significant input then, so feel free. I'm thinking about enabling static methods in general, thus supporting Foo/create
08:57	cemerick	rhickey: this discussion was yesterday morning?
08:57	rhickey	cemerick: yes
08:57	AWizzArd	cemerick: do you see technical problems there?
08:57	cemerick	AWizzArd: with create-Foo, or similar?
08:58	AWizzArd	yes, with these autodefed functions
08:58	cemerick	no, no technical issues -- I just don't like automagically-created vars. Reminds me of CLOS pain.
08:59	AWizzArd	I think it is comfortable to have them, while it indeed will not be the most beautiful thing. But it still offers several advantages, and as defrecords will be important it is okay to make an exception here.
08:59	cemerick	...which was fundamentally a failing of mine at the time, but the automatically-created fns didn't help at all.
08:59	AWizzArd	cemerick: clos does not autodef such functions. Those are CLs defstructs
08:59	cemerick	eh, whatever it was
08:59	AWizzArd	and it defines really lots of them
09:00	AWizzArd	but create-Foo would be pretty much the only fn getting defined
09:00	AWizzArd	not a getter on each field
09:01	AWizzArd	CLs defstruct really is going a bit too far with this magic. But just having a constructor sounds okay. Also this could be an option {:contructor-fn-name 'make-foo} shrugs
09:01	cemerick	It's a pretty hostile thing, really. The first thing someone who's using defrecord will want to do is create a record, and they've got to go find the docs that explain create-Foo or Foo/create.
09:01	AWizzArd	defaulting to create-Foo
09:02	AWizzArd	cemerick: they will have to read about records anyway.
09:02	cemerick	vs. assuming that it works just like defn
09:02	sattvik	rhickey: Do you know if Foo/create would be a problem with other runtimes, namely CLR?
09:02	rhickey	cemerick: they would presume a same-named factory fn? I don't think so
09:02	AWizzArd	plus there can still be a fn (create-record Foo arg1 ... argn)
09:02	AWizzArd	This would be the less efficient general factory.
09:03	AWizzArd	(map #(create-record Foo %*) (bar)) vs (map create-Foo (bar))
09:03	LauJensen	(clojure in top10 on HN again =))
09:04	liwp	AWizzArd: I was just about to suggest an optional :contructor-fn-name :)
09:04	@chouser	once upon a time we came up with consistent syntax for (map Foo/create aseq) that supported arg hinting and everything.
09:04	AWizzArd	mornin chouser
09:05	AWizzArd	liwp: yes, to overwrite the default
09:05	cemerick	rhickey: Eh, maybe not, but (Foo ...) was a very natural-feeling thing
09:05	rhickey	chouser: yes, still hosty
09:05	@chouser	g'morning.
09:05	rhickey	cemerick: and (Foo. ...) ?
09:05	AWizzArd	I did not find (Foo ...) natural.
09:06	AWizzArd	The uppercase F indicated a jvm class
09:06	AWizzArd	but where is the "."?
09:06	cemerick	rhickey: I'm fine with that. Foo. is the standard ctor usage, so it's a good fit.
09:06	@chouser	yeah. One concrete way to describe the difference between create-Foo and Foo/create is the ability to find the identifiers in the latter based on the name of the datatype
09:06	AWizzArd	Compared with (File. ...) (SomeClass. ...) etc it was strange.
09:07	rhickey	chouser: that's a good point
09:07	AWizzArd	cemerick: but rhickey mentioned above that "using Foo. spreads the hostiness all over, also can have no associated logic (arg processing etc)".
09:07	@chouser	maybe this is just a vimism, but I have a keystroke that takes me from an identifier to the next use of that identifier, and I find it very helpful for quickly finding my way through unfamilier code to the part I care about.
09:08	@chouser	but a strike against create-Foo without a solid alternative doesn't do us much good. We don't want to generatea namespace, right
09:08	rhickey	One thing is that deftype/defrecord have changed in creating named types, vs dynamically tagged types. Any kind of wrapper diminishes the power of that somewhat
09:09	cemerick	AWizzArd: yeah, I saw that. I presume rhickey meant "hostiness" in a derogatory way, but insofar as being hosty is around the second thing one learns how to do in clojure, carrying Foo. over to something that has the same semantics is fine by me.
09:09	rhickey	and any generated 'create' might need to be overridden by a type-specific static factory
09:11	AWizzArd	rhickey: btw, also very nice to see that you are still actively working on Cells too thumbs up
09:12	rhickey	AWizzArd: just using that cells code to test the changes
09:12	AWizzArd	yes, but this is still an important update, because when I use the changes, then my old cells.clj file wouldn't work anymore.
09:12	rhickey	sattvik: checking CLI spec...
09:14	cemerick	hrm, I'm actually liking Foo. more than the bare Foo ctor fns I've been using. Our generic create form is already there: (new MyRecord ...)
09:18	rhickey	cemerick: except new is not a proper function, nor is Foo.
09:19	rhickey	sattvik: I think the CLI is fine with it
09:20	cemerick	rhickey: well, I was careful in 1/2 spots to say form instead of fn :-)
09:20	AWizzArd	After a few days of usage create-Foo will look familiar and idiomatic.
09:20	cemerick	compared to Foo/create, create-Foo is just bad. Sorry, AWizzArd
09:21	AWizzArd	Only from an aesthetic pov. Technically it is fine.
09:21	cemerick	rhickey: perhaps then a new-esque fn could be made that would be applicable to records and classes.
09:22	AWizzArd	For basically all my deftypes I made a (defn make-foo ...) anyway.
09:22	rhickey	cemerick: not one whose perf didn't stink
09:22	jlb	Anybody have experience deploying AOT'd compojure/ring servlets? Everything works fine for me if I run in jetty, but I get weird NPE's deploying to a servlet container
09:22	cemerick	jlb: paste the stacks somewhere
09:23	AWizzArd	Often the constructors have to do some clever jobs anyway, and don't want to just fill the fields with some bare values.
09:23	cemerick	rhickey: isn't the same problem in each case? There's a host ctor that needs to be invoked.
09:23	cemerick	isn't it*
09:23	AWizzArd	Maybe we just need an option {:contructor-name make-foo} ?
09:23	rhickey	cemerick: not way to do that w/o reflection, or if a multimethod, a lookup
09:24	jlb	cemerick: will do, one sec
09:24	sattvik	rhickey: That's good. It doesn't guarantee that Foo/create will not cause any problems when porting clojure to other platforms, but at least the two primary targets would be fine with it.
09:24	rhickey	sattvik: no need to worry about it yet, same args against creating names apply in class scope as in namespaces, really
09:25	cemerick	rhickey: but a reflection-free create fn can be made for records, e.g. (create Foo ...)?
09:25	rhickey	cemerick: still lookup
09:25	AWizzArd	This will still have to look up the class
09:26	AWizzArd	Would be nice to have this generic factory too tho
09:26	cemerick	oh, ok. In that case, I fail to see the downside of Foo., given that it reuses all the existing host semantics (appropriately, it seems)
09:26	jlb	cemerick: http://pastebin.com/1jh62sUv
09:27	AWizzArd	Now that I think about my use cases a Foo. or Foo/create would really be enough (for me). I define a make-foo anyway for nearly all cases, which sets internal fields and such.
09:27	jlb	It's largely unhelpful
09:27	rhickey	cemerick: that's where I ended up, and thus that's all there is for now
09:27	AWizzArd	a create-Foo which does nothing different from Foo. or Foo/create would in that case pollute the namespace
09:27	cemerick	rhickey: ah, I thought you were actively preferring Foo/create (or, something in addition to the ctor)
09:29	cemerick	jlb: I would double-check the container's security policy
09:29	rhickey	cemerick: I am anticipating the need for factory fns, but ones that go beyond a direct mapping to the ctor. My philosophy is, ctors should just set fields, use factory fns if doing arg munging etc, so what's really needed are static methods in deftype. Also good for helpers. Given that, then perhaps defrecrod would auto-define Foo/create factory
09:29	jlb	If I strip everything out and just return strings from the file that extends HttpServlet, that much works
09:30	rhickey	cemerick: for now I'm not going to auto-generate anything and instead work on statics and protocol cleanup to go along with deftype changes
09:30	cemerick	jlb: when you strip everything out, are you removing require and use dependencies?
09:31	cemerick	rhickey: presumably, one might want multiple factory fns then?
09:31	AWizzArd	rhickey: but what would create-Foo then do if it is auto defined? I mean, what can it do that Foo. can’t?
09:31	rhickey	one problem mwith no standard factory is that print/read won't be able to use a factory, only a ctor
09:31	rhickey	cemerick: yes
09:31	AWizzArd	I would think the user has to implement create-Foo himself
09:31	jlb	cemerick: yep. I'm going to try fooling with class paths and things in the war lib directory and so on next... however, right now I think everything is in there.
09:32	rhickey	I'd like records to be readable
09:32	jlb	But if that useless error is code for "can't find some dependency" then that's where I'll look first
09:33	cemerick	jlb: I've hit something like this before. I'm guessing one of that namespace's dependencies is throwing an exception in the process of loading, which are unfortunately sometimes swallowed.
09:34	jlb	cemerick: ok, thanks
09:34	sexpbot	Raynes: You have 1 new messages. Type $getmessages to see them.
09:34	cemerick	rhickey: isn't print/read only using ctors OK? I mean, the fields will have already been munged (if necessary), so why would a factory fn ever be relevant at that point?
09:34	rhickey	cemerick: manually-written literals
09:35	cemerick	yikes
09:35	cemerick	if one can define multiple factory fns, then that seems untenable
09:35	Raynes	I think that mail plugin might be the most useful thing I've ever written.
09:35	rhickey	cemerick: not if they have a known name and can only be overloaded on arity
09:35	Chousuke	Raynes: you should make it send a private message or a notice though
09:36	Raynes	Yeah, because it's just so annoying! ;)
09:39	rhickey	,(binding [print-dup true] (prn (array-map :a 1 :b 2)))
09:39	clojurebot	#=(clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap/create {:a 1, :b 2})
09:40	rhickey	not a ctor ^^
09:41	AWizzArd	I think print-dup should really output #=(user-defined-record-factory arg1 arg2 ...) to be generally usable.
09:44	AWizzArd	For example, I have (defrecord [foo bar #^FileOutputStream fos ...])
09:44	AWizzArd	This gets set according to bar, and is not so easily printable.
09:46	Raynes	Chousuke: It notices now. Just for you. <3
09:46	AWizzArd	Or I want to store a ThreadPoolExecutor, etc.
09:47	rhickey	AWizzArd: you'll only ever be able to print/read records containing fields that support print/read
09:48	AWizzArd	When I can provide my own print-dup method then I can have it generate #=(my-make-foo "filename" n-threads)
09:48	AWizzArd	Before I read I’ll have to make sure my-make-foo is loaded, and then it can make a fos on filename and setup a TPE.
09:50	AWizzArd	that’s application specific long-term serialization then
09:50	Chousuke	isn't it possible to do that already by provide a print-method for the type of the record?
09:51	Chousuke	providing*
09:51	AWizzArd	A default for printable and immutable objects would still be nice though, and portable between all Clojures then.
09:51	AWizzArd	Chousuke: yes
09:51	AWizzArd	Although.. one problem would be to access the fields of the record.
09:52	AWizzArd	no, nevermind
09:54	rhickey	there will only be the functionality of extend-class, not tag-based extend-type, but I'd like to call it extend-type
09:55	AWizzArd	extend-record?
09:56	rhickey	AWizzArd: no, works for deftypes too
09:56	rhickey	and ordinary classes and interfaces
10:02	cemerick	speaking of java / servlet container security policy, I've blown a bunch of hours on this already; any help would be greatly appreciated. :-) http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2645298/how-to-sanely-configure-security-policy-in-tomcat-6
10:02	sexpbot	How to sanely configure security policy in Tomcat 6 - Stack Overflow
10:12	cemerick	Raynes: I think you'll end up ignoring all links eventually :-)
10:12	AWizzArd	ns of defn-memo anyone?
10:12	Raynes	cemerick: Not all of them. :>
10:13	AWizzArd	nm :)
10:17	dnolen	ah
10:17	dnolen	so defrecord is more "primitive" than deftype?
10:17	cemerick	dnolen: vice versa
10:18	AWizzArd	deftype is very lowlevel now
10:18	dnolen	cemerick: ok, looking at the code this seems more like a refactoring right? deftype used to have both deftype/defrecord functionality, now deftype is barebones.
10:19	cemerick	right
10:19	cemerick	"closer to the metal" rather than "barebones", but sure.
10:21	stuartsierra	so what's up with defrecord?
10:21	stuartsierra	I saw the commit
10:22	cemerick	it's alive! :-)
10:22	@chouser	it exists. love it, and applyh search/replace to your chapter...
10:22	stuartsierra	yeah...
10:23	stuartsierra	So defrecord is like deftype + IPersistentMap
10:23	@chouser	yep
10:23	stuartsierra	Does deftype include any default interfaces at all?
10:23	cemerick	minus the mutables that deftype had, and still has
10:23	@chouser	ah
10:27	wthidden	Does anyone know where the latest writeup on defrecord is located?
10:27	fogus	On #clojure
10:27	jlb	cemerick: re: your tomcat problem, what happens if you create the file that it is complaining about?
10:28	jlb	cemerick: BTW I got my AOT'd servlet working... turns out I was providing too many jars in the war lib
10:28	cemerick	jlb: too many jars?
10:29	cemerick	jlb: I tried that, but it then fails searching for a classfile to load, again on path that doesn't exist. It seems like a general issue.
10:30	jlb	cemerick: right, the container seemed not to like the fact that I was providing implementations of classes it already had. Or something. wiping out WEB-INF/lib did the trick (with my bare bones code devoid of other dependencies)
10:31	cemerick	jlb: which container?
10:31	jlb	cemerick: jboss
10:32	cemerick	jlb: I'd doubt the conclusion of too many jars being the problem. People put some pretty friggin' massive wars and ears into jboss. :-)
10:32	cemerick	the classloader hierarchy, now that might be something worth looking at
10:33	cemerick	never worked with jboss myself, but most containers have different modes for arranging their classloaders, which can help to avoid issues like using different versions of classes the container depends upon itself.
10:34	dnolen	hmm
10:34	jlb	cemerick: it's definitely weird, but removing lib did the trick. I had all the apache commons stuff in there, etc. I don't mean too many in the count sense, but in the conflicting implementations sense
10:34	dnolen	so with defrecord I have to use the (my-record. & args) ?
10:34	dnolen	no more support for (my-record & args)
10:34	dnolen	?
10:35	cemerick	jlb: commons-logging? It does some wonky stuff with classloaders. Try removing just that one....
10:35	cemerick	dnolen: that's the current state, yeah
10:35	cemerick	likely to persist, if I've interpreted the tea leaves right
10:35	stuartsierra	so instead of defining a constructor function, it imports the class name?
10:36	cemerick	yeah
10:36	stuartsierra	ok. Are datatypes still identified by namespaced keywords?
10:36	cemerick	AFAIK, yes
10:37	dnolen	cemerick: any particular reason?
10:38	cemerick	dnolen: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2010-04-14.html#08:58
10:38	sexpbot	#clojure log - Apr 14 2010
10:39	dnolen	ah, good reason
10:40	cemerick	I actually think it's a very positive change at this point.
10:40	dnolen	so we're waiting for (my-record/create-or-some-other-name & args)
10:41	cemerick	rhickey has plans for factory functions, yeah
10:45	stuartsierra	Last contrib build on build.clojure.org failed. http://build.clojure.org/job/clojure-contrib/lastBuild/console
10:45	sexpbot	clojure-contrib #64 Console [Hudson]
10:46	stuartsierra	I can't reproduce this locally; any ideas?
10:46	dnolen	defrecord question? how do I use the constructor in a different namespace since it's not a function anymore?
10:46	stuartsierra	dnolen: import the class?
10:48	dnolen	stuartsierra: ok, that works.
10:48	cemerick	stuartsierra: try making the maven invocation 'clean install' -- this would likely resolve one of the issues in my clojure-dev node
10:48	cemerick	and potentially fix the build error
10:49	stuartsierra	I thought Hudson always started with a clean checkout anyway.
10:49	jlb	BTW, rhickey (or anyone), is there a ballpark "done" or at least stable date for 1.2? I'm hoping to ship some production stuff on Clojure and deftype/defrecord/defsomething would be very nice to have (it would suck to retrofit that)
10:50	cemerick	stuartsierra: nope
10:50	stuartsierra	jlb: rhickey doesn't do dates
10:50	cemerick	jlb: I really doubt deftype/defrecord are going to go away.
10:51	cemerick	we already have a very early version of deftype in production :-)
10:51	stuartsierra	jlb: if you have to ship now, pick a single snapshot and stick with it.
10:53	@chouser	no, I think datatypes and records both have unmunged class names now, so no more need of ::Foo
10:53	jlb	stuartsierra: production is a few months off... so I just need to know what the endpoint will look like, ballpark. :) I'm using deftype now, for example
10:54	stuartsierra	we don't know yet
10:54	stuartsierra	it's experimental :)
10:55	stuartsierra	some of the necessary changes aren't apparent until after people have had a chance to play with it
10:55	stuartsierra	So we get to be the guinea pigs. :)
10:55	cemerick	jlb: you'll likely want defrecord (or its equivalent) from here on out, unless you're using the low-level mutable stuff in deftype
10:56	jlb	cemerick: ok, good to know... BTW I noticed that it implements IPersistentMap, does that mean I can instantiate it from a map by chance?
10:56	cemerick	stuartsierra: clean builds FTW :-)
10:57	stuartsierra	cemerick: Yes, thanks for the tip. http://build.clojure.org/job/clojure-contrib/lastBuild/ is successful now
10:57	sexpbot	clojure-contrib #65 [Hudson]
10:57	stuartsierra	who's this sexpbot, by the way?
10:58	LauJensen	stuartsierra: Thats Raynes' experiment
10:58	cemerick	now let's wait for all those using 1.2.0-SNAPSHOT to suddenly start missing duck-streams et al.
10:58	@chouser	jlb: you'd still use 'into' to copy from an existing map into a record
10:58	dnolen	jlb: that just so that you do map like things with a defrecord instance, (:x record-instance) and (assoc record-instance :x 'foo). main difference being you have the speed of java fields.
10:58	jlb	stuartsierra: understood... it's just helpful when selling to others to be able to say something other than "no clue when it will be solidified" :)
10:58	Raynes	stuartsierra: Woot! Finally fixed, eh? :>
10:59	@chouser	jlb: anything else would be a lie. :-)
10:59	stuartsierra	Raynes: it was fine until this morning
10:59	cemerick	I'm betting on 12/31/2010 for 1.2.
10:59	stuartsierra	cemerick: really?!
11:00	jlb	chouser: hehe.
11:00	cemerick	stuartsierra: a yearly release cycle seems entirely reasonable. Besides, there's a ton of scope left.
11:00	jlb	chouser: lies would be going too far... some clueful exaggerations would be ok :)
11:00	cemerick	And it's not like defrecord et al. have been beaten up properly.
11:01	stuartsierra	Raynes: contrib build has been stable for weeks.
11:01	stuartsierra	cemerick: yeah
11:01	Raynes	stuartsierra: Are we talking about snapshots?
11:02	stuartsierra	yes
11:02	LauJensen	Yearly released cycle?
11:02	cemerick	a long-ish lead like that is helpful insofar as it gets people using SNAPSHOTs, draws more people into the "test pool" ;-)
11:02	Raynes	stuartsierra: http://build.clojure.org/snapshots/org/clojure/clojure-contrib/ There hasn't been a new build here since January.
11:02	sexpbot	Index of /snapshots/org/clojure/clojure-contrib/
11:02	dnolen	anybody messed with Clojure on a core i7 laptop, so does Java see those machines as having 4 cpus ? :D
11:02	cemerick	Raynes: see 1.2.0-SNAPSHOT directory
11:03	Raynes	Oh. Well, that's weird.
11:03	cemerick	stuartsierra: any idea about why prior snapshots aren't being retained for contrib?
11:03	stuartsierra	no
11:03	stuartsierra	cemerick: I don't know that much about Hudson, but i'd guess that's how it's configured
11:03	LauJensen	dnolen: (.. Runtime getRuntime availableProcessors)
11:04	dnolen	LauJensen: yes I know, I wondering if anybody's tried that.
11:04	cemerick	every core should get reported as a processor
11:05	dnolen	but core i5 & i7 has hyperthreading, so OS supposedly reports two more cores.
11:06	rsynnott	it would, yeah
11:06	rsynnott	if you have a four-core hyperthreading processor the OS will see that as eight logical processors
11:07	pjstadig	i have a quad core i7
11:07	rsynnott	(or, in the case of a Sun T2, eight threads per core, so _64_ logical processors, which makes for unreadable top readouts)
11:08	pjstadig	system monitor shows 8 procs
11:08	AWizzArd	stuartsierra: I find your last edit of http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Emacs very unfortunate. Why do you suggest that one should not learn Emacs and Clojure at the same time? I think this suggestion should go away again, or get added for all other IDEs/Editors as well.
11:08	sexpbot	Getting Started with Emacs \| Clojure \| Assembla
11:08	pjstadig	user> (.. Runtime getRuntime availableProcessors)
11:08	pjstadig	8
11:08	dnolen	pjstadig: nice :D an excellent Clojure machine.
11:08	rsynnott	certainly, people usually learn common lisp and emacs at the same time if they don't know emacs already
11:08	stuartsierra	I'm trying to avoid the "Lisp is hard because you have to learn Emacs" problem.
11:08	rsynnott	on the basis that there is no satisfactory way to use common lisp without emacs, usually :)
11:09	rsynnott	stuartsierra: but you may, if you want to
11:09	stuartsierra	Well, obviously, I can't stop anyone.
11:09	AWizzArd	stuartsierra: the same is true for all editors. It makes not much sense to pick on Emacs.
11:09	stuartsierra	Why not? everyone else does? ;)
11:09	stuartsierra	But I'll change it.
11:10	LauJensen	stuartsierra: I think thats in bad taste
11:10	AWizzArd	thx
11:10	stuartsierra	I LOVE Emacs, I will never leave it. But I spent years on it before I ever tried to use SLIME/SWANK.
11:10	stuartsierra	And it was STILL hard to get SLIME/SWANK/Clojure working together.
11:10	rsynnott	How else are they meant to learn clojure, anyway? From command line?
11:10	LauJensen	stuartsierra: I learned emacs simultaneously with learning SBCL
11:11	AWizzArd	cemerick: ^^
11:11	rsynnott	I suppose there's clojure integration for the big scary java IDEs...
11:11	LauJensen	And besides, getting SLIME up and running, with the multitude of wiki guides, blogposts and even videos you'd have to be an impressive character to fail at it these days, wouldnt you ? :)
11:11	rsynnott	LauJensen: ditto, more or less; I'd used emacs before but not seriously. Also, it was cmucl
11:11	pjstadig	elpa makes getting emacs setup much easier nowadays IMO
11:11	stuartsierra	I think everyone should start with the environment they are most familiar with. If that's a text editor and a command line, use that. If it's a big Java IDE, use that.
11:12	AWizzArd	pjstadig: but how do I setup elpa?
11:12	LauJensen	stuartsierra: I think you're making way too much of this
11:12	pjstadig	i just use technomancy's starter kit
11:12	LauJensen	It takes so little effort to get into Emacs, so I hardly think it deserves a warning sign
11:12	AWizzArd	So the starter kit setups elpa, which then allows to setup swank-clojure?
11:12	LauJensen	And secondly, the benefits are so massive that we should be helping people pass those hurdles, not point at them and scream danger
11:12	AWizzArd	I ask because I still use the version from October 2009, which was easy to install.
11:12	pjstadig	yeah
11:13	cemerick	LauJensen: please keep your emacs advocacy away from my language. :-)
11:13	AWizzArd	Everyone with a cheat sheet can learn the basic Emacs commands within 1-2 days.
11:13	pjstadig	i had to wrangle with things before, but setting up emacs recently with the starter kit was easy...for me
11:13	LauJensen	cemerick: haven't you got some XML that needs untangling ? :)
11:13	AWizzArd	As if I know all the key combos for Netbeans, Ideo or VimClojure. I would have to learn them all anyway.
11:13	AWizzArd	stuartsierra: thanks.
11:14	LauJensen	Ok, I'll back down. But I think the editor discussion is silly. Go with the one which strikes your fancy. Dont fear learning. Thats it
11:14	cemerick	stuartsierra: eh, don't do that, the sentiment was correct IMO.
11:14	arbscht	uh oh, now you're in trouble :)
11:14	LauJensen	This is hardly worth getting upset over stuartsierra :)
11:14	cemerick	LauJensen: That's fine. "Helping people get past [emacs'] hurdles" isn't.
11:14	stuartsierra	I know, I'm just being goofy. ;)
11:15	AWizzArd	cemerick: same hurdles with netbeans
11:15	cemerick	AWizzArd: not for the 90+% of devs that use eclipse/netbeans/intellij
11:15	jweiss	i think if the question is "does emacs scare people away from clojure" the answer is clearly "yes", wouldn't we all agree? But they don't have to use emacs
11:16	AWizzArd	cemerick: unfair comparison, cause they already know how to use those
11:16	cemerick	AWizzArd: and as a clojure advocate, that's all I care about.
11:16	jweiss	although i did learn emacs even though i tried to avoid it, because it's by far the best environemnt to use for clojure (IMO)
11:16	AWizzArd	cemerick: but then there should still be a warning to not learn Clojure and Netbeans at the same time, as for any editor/ide.
11:17	rhickey	1.2 will be soon
11:17	cemerick	AWizzArd: well, the warning's gone now. Besides, tackling the emacs-starter-kit is enough of a warning to those that don't care about emacs. ;-)
11:17	AWizzArd	^^
11:18	stuartsierra	rhickey: yay!
11:19	AWizzArd	btw, whill 1.2 include deftype/defrecord?
11:19	rhickey	AWizzArd: it already does
11:19	AWizzArd	good good
11:19	AWizzArd	Cells are for 1.3?
11:20	jweiss	where can i find docs on these new features?
11:20	AWizzArd	jweiss: http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Datatypes and http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Protocols
11:20	sexpbot	Datatypes \| Clojure \| Assembla
11:21	rhickey	yikes, TIOBE lumping Clojure with Lisp/Scheme, of course that makes it leap to #23 (over Scala, Erlang)
11:22	cemerick	rhickey: yeah, that's hilariously sad, eh?
11:23	rhickey	and Go is #15 and in the hall of fame, oh please
11:23	stuartsierra	yeah
11:23	cemerick	I presume the page is only there for SEO purposes.
11:23	liebke	seems like they might as well lump C/C++/Java together too then
11:24	AWizzArd	Tiobe uses a google search
11:24	AWizzArd	compare: "go programming language" 48 million hits
11:24	AWizzArd	"clojure programming language" 70k hits
11:27	rhickey	hrm, I get "go programming" 60k, "go language" 156k, clojure 356k
11:28	AWizzArd	rhickey: ok, might be because I use the german version of google.
11:28	stuartsierra	rhickey: after latest patch, I get "Warning: profocol #'ns/FooProtocol is overwriting function foo"
11:29	rhickey	stuartsierra: when you do what?
11:29	AWizzArd	When i put it into quotes, "go programming language" i get 291k hits vs "clojure programming language" 177k hits.
11:29	stuartsierra	rhickey: load my code
11:29	rhickey	stuartsierra: which code
11:29	stuartsierra	oh, maybe it's getting loaded twice
11:29	stuartsierra	mine
11:30	stuartsierra	containing (defprotocol FooProcotol...)
11:30	stuartsierra	hang on, checking to see if it's loading twice because of testing
11:31	rhickey	stuartsierra: I can reload the cells code over and over without warning
11:31	stuartsierra	ok, I get it on first load
11:31	rhickey	any declares?
11:31	stuartsierra	no
11:32	carkh	the protocol naming convention is PascalCase ?
11:33	rhickey	carkh: yes
11:33	carkh	same for types and records ?
11:33	rhickey	carkh: yes
11:33	carkh	thanks !
11:33	AWizzArd	http://java.sun.com/docs/codeconv/html/CodeConventions.doc8.html
11:33	rhickey	all will become Java class names
11:34	stuartsierra	rhickey: http://gist.github.com/367231
11:34	carkh	ok got it ... just looking weird with all lisp looking names around =P
11:34	stuartsierra	code here: http://github.com/stuartsierra/lazytest/blob/master/src/main/clojure/com/stuartsierra/lazytest.clj
11:37	stuartsierra	but (use 'com.stuartsierra.lazytest :reload) prints no warnings
11:39	stuartsierra	same thing in SLIME
11:39	AWizzArd	slime prints no warnings?
11:39	stuartsierra	no, same warnings in SLIME
11:39	stuartsierra	only get warnings first time I load the file; subsequent reloads print no warnings
11:41	rhickey	stuartsierra: I get no warnings at all, not from loading the code from buffer, nor from file, nor via use
11:41	stuartsierra	hmmmm
11:41	drewr	rhickey: http://gist.github.com/367250 am I missing something?
11:42	rhickey	drewr: no facgtory fns now, use (Foo.)
11:43	rhickey	docstrings have changed on deftype and defrecord, please read fro latest details, I don't have a changes list yet
11:43	drewr	ah, ok; I saw that in the docstring but didn't translate that to constructor call
11:43	stuartsierra	rhickey: ok, no warnings at plain REPL
11:43	stuartsierra	something about my dev env
11:44	rhickey	drewr: the docstring doesn't say use the ctor, as I'm still thinking about factories, but it doesn't say you get a factory anymore
11:44	drewr	I think I was confused by "A factory function of current.ns/Name will be defined..."
11:44	rhickey	drewr: that's a bug, will fix thanks
11:46	rhickey	I took it out of deftype doc, but not defrecrod
11:47	drewr	ah
11:48	rhickey	fixed
11:49	stuartsierra	rhickey: It was AOT-compilation that triggered the warning
11:50	stuartsierra	When the ns containing defprotocol is AOT-compiled, it produces the warning when loaded
11:51	AWizzArd	rhickey: maybe for 1.2 you just leave it as Foo., and if this won't need changes in the future, then in 1.3 Foo/create and create-foo or whatever can be added?
11:51	AWizzArd	In the next months this would generate some code and show how people use it.
11:54	rhickey	stuartsierra: thanks, will look into that
11:55	stuartsierra	thanks
11:55	stuartsierra	need a break from all this intense conversation :)
12:01	Raynes	Huh
12:01	Raynes	Leiningen is downloading 1.2.0-SNAPSHOT from Clojars for some reason.
12:01	Raynes	clojure-contrib, that is.
12:16	fogus	I get back from lunch and see that Twitter has declared rhickey is almost done with v1.2.
12:18	rhickey	ah, that twitter
12:19	LauJensen	Whats a 'recrod' ?
12:19	fogus	rhickey: Well, if Twitter says it then it must be true
12:20	fogus	LauJensen: It's when you have to crod again
12:20	LauJensen	fogus: oh, so I need the crod then..
12:23	rhickey	hrm, I fix stuartsierra's problem and he's left
12:30	Mec	Is there a way to get the repl to only print one '...' after print-length is reached, instead of one '...' for every single item left
12:50	slyphon	so, kind of a "working with clojure" question, when working in the repl do you load everything in the project explicitly? if so, how?c
12:52	carkh	slyphon: laod your top-level namespace, and this on loads what it needs ...recursively so that everything gets loaded
12:53	slyphon	top-level namespace as in the 'user.clj' file or the top-level for my project (i.e. 'fqdn.project')?
12:53	carkh	i personally don't use the user namespace for that
12:54	carkh	i'm currently working on a project which has like 80 files (didn't cound them really)
12:55	carkh	it's all loaded from dev_init when working on it with my editor
12:55	carkh	or from my genclass with the main method
12:55	slyphon	you do a (require 'blah.dev_init)
12:55	carkh	i just load that file then compile =P
12:55	slyphon	:)
12:55	slyphon	ok
12:56	@chouser	I often do (require 'foo.bar :reload) or :reload-all
12:56	carkh	so really yes, that's like a require
12:56	carkh	i can't really reload-all, i have much state all over the place that needs to be kept alive
12:57	carkh	like network connections to some hardware and such
12:57	slyphon	i mean, i know how i structure and manage stuff in say, ruby, but it's these kinds of "best practices" that take time to suss out
12:57	slyphon	yeah, indeed
12:58	cemerick	rhickey: so, uh, sometime next week for a 1.2 release, mmmkay? ;-)
12:58	carkh	cemerick: i'd say tomorrow !
12:59	carkh	or better, tonight !
12:59	slyphon	have there been improvements made to the ns macro?
12:59	slyphon	i saw that ns+ project which looked really cool
12:59	carkh	i think the ns maco fits the bill as it is
12:59	slyphon	ehhh
12:59	@chouser	carkh: I tend to use defonce for state that shouldn't be blown away.
12:59	slyphon	there's a lot of repetition
13:00	slyphon	i mean spread out between files
13:00	slyphon	i'd like some kind of "common set of things" across my whole project
13:00	carkh	chouser: right, but this quite large project was started a while back, when i didn't know about defonce
13:00	@chouser	ah, ok
13:01	cemerick	chouser: have you poked at that restricted compilation scope any further?
13:02	carkh	besides reaload-all doesn't provide a clean state, when i need to reload-all, i just kill my clojure process and reload the whole thing
13:23	naeu	fogus: hey there
13:25	LauJensen	Aah, feeling right at home here in #Clojure, enjoying a nice cup of tea.... (coffee maker is broken)
13:25	slyphon	LauJensen: put your feet up, make yourself comfortable
13:25	fogus	naeu: Hello there
13:25	kylesmith	I'm getting a weired error that happens when I set warn-on-reflection to true and load a file. "swank.util.io.proxy$java.io.StringWriter$0 cannot be cast to java.io.PrintWriter" Any ideas?
13:26	slyphon	kylesmith: there was some discussion of that
13:26	naeu	fogus: I've been reading joyofclojure. It is remarkably well written
13:26	slyphon	i had a problem with that and the contrib.sql lib
13:26	LauJensen	kylesmith: its a known issue with swank, Zach Tellman posted a patch for it somewhere, check the group
13:26	fogus	naeu: Thank you very much, but I blame @chouser
13:26	naeu	fogus: The only thing I struggled with was the 2d drawing example
13:26	fogus	naeu: Oh wait, you said "well written" ;-)
13:27	LauJensen	hehe
13:27	lancepantz	is it out?
13:27	slyphon	kylesmith: i htink i wound up changing my dev-dependencies to use [swank-clojure "1.2.0-SNAPSHOT"]
13:27	slyphon	lein-swank as well
13:27	scottj	lancepantz: just first 5 chapters
13:27	naeu	fogus: I didn't realise that you had to outstretch the canvas before you grabbed the graphical context in order to draw a rectangle
13:28	lancepantz	ah, yeah- i have a link to those somewhere
13:28	fogus	naeu: I think we should fix that
13:28	naeu	fogus: I also didn't realise that when you change the size of the canvas, it clears it
13:28	LauJensen	fogus: Also I dont know if Sam posted it correctly, but are you showing people stuff like (let [f (JFrame.) _ (.setSize f 300 300)] ??
13:28	LauJensen	s/posted/pasted
13:28	naeu	fogus: you just need to add one line specifying an initial size
13:28	naeu	LauJensen: no, that was me condensing it down for IRC consumption
13:28	LauJensen	phew
13:29	fogus	LauJensen: Sam? Pasted?
13:29	LauJensen	fogus: naeu is Sam Aaron
13:29	naeu	fogus: I discussed it in here a few days ago
13:29	LauJensen	And he pasted some vile looking code in here a few days ago
13:29	fogus	naeu: I was almost certain we did, but it might have gotten lost in the copy/paste
13:29	LauJensen	Had your name on it
13:30	fogus	LauJensen: I might have missed that
13:30	naeu	LauJensen: cheeky bugger
13:30	LauJensen	hehe
13:31	naeu	fogus: anyway, you and @chouser are doing a wonderful job. It's a joy to read
13:32	naeu	the joy of the joy of clojure!
13:32	fogus	naeu: Thank you. And thanks for pointing out the dimension issue
13:33	naeu	fogus: you're welcome. The only other things I noticed were the occasional grammar error here and there. I guess you have an editor to deal with those
13:33	naeu	fogus: or are you looking for that kind of feedback too?
13:34	fogus	naeu: Yes. We have an editor, but every little bit helps. We have a forum for that at http://www.manning-sandbox.com/forum.jspa?forumID=624
13:34	sexpbot	Manning Forums: Joy of Clojure
13:35	naeu	fogus: oh ok. I'll start making a note of things I find then :-)
13:35	fogus	Thank you
13:35	naeu	it's the least I can do
13:36	naeu	btw, will you be covering 1.2 stuff. Or is it too late for that?
13:39	fogus	naeu: It's all 1.2
13:40	naeu	fogus: oh cool, so will the Java.next chapter cover deftype, defprotocol & friends?
13:41	fogus	naeu: No. That chapter only covers interop. types/proto/reify will be in chapter 8
13:41	naeu	fogus: oh cool :-)
13:42	kylesmith	Well, I just git pull'ed clojure, clojure-contrib, slime, clojure-mode, and swank-clojure, and I'm still getting the same error.
13:44	scottj	kylesmith: LauJensen said there was a patch, but not necessarily merged in. he said check group.
13:45	LauJensen	I dont think its merged. What I do though, is I keep a terminal open, so if I need to check for reflections I just eval the file from there, look at the line numbers, and go back to my code buffer
13:52	kylesmith	Yeah, I looked, but couldn't find anything. Does anyone have a link?
13:57	LauJensen	I'll look
13:59	LauJensen	kylesmith: http://groups.google.com/group/swank-clojure/browse_thread/thread/36cc0c9d325a9c76/be3bcb3501cec1e9?show_docid=be3bcb3501cec1e9
13:59	LauJensen	That was my source
14:00	kylesmith	Oh, I didn't realize swank-clojure had its own group. thanks.
14:18	@chouser	what's the state of the art in clojure.test integration with junit?
14:19	@chouser	I've got a little macro that generates a junit test suite out of a namespace full on functions named like -testFoo
14:20	@chouser	but it's clumsy to get clojure.test failures to show up as junit failures.
14:23	@chouser	clojure.test/are always returns true?
14:23	@chouser	oh, true if the last test succeeds, regardless of earlier tests' results? Is that intentional?
14:31	tomoj	,(require 'clojure.test)
14:31	clojurebot	nil
14:31	tomoj	,(clojure.test/are [x] (inc x) -2 -3)
14:31	clojurebot	DENIED
14:31	tomoj	darn
14:32	tomoj	looks like it just returns whatever the last template expression returns
14:33	@chouser	poking around in clojure-test, it looks like you're expected to rebind clojure.test/report and do something appropriate there.
14:42	Norrit	Hey, I am trying to "use" contrib.http.agen/http-agen, but it doesnt quite work .. any suggestions?
14:43	Norrit	Only require seems to work
14:43	Norrit	(ns test (:require clojure.contrib.http.agent))
14:47	vegai	Norrit: that's a typo in your comment, not in your code, right?
14:48	Norrit	the typo is in the comment
14:49	vegai	how do you use it?
14:49	Norrit	I tried (ns test2 (:use clojure.contrib.http.agent)) but that doesnt work
14:50	Norrit	The error message is: bytes already refers to: #'clojure.core/bytes in namespace: test2
14:50	Norrit	seems like there is a nameing conflict
14:51	hiredman	,(doc refer-clojure)
14:51	clojurebot	"([& filters]); Same as (refer 'clojure.core <filters>)"
14:55	@chouser	Norrit: I'd recommend avoiding naked 'use' like that. Either list the specific Vars you want, or give the whole namespace a convenient alias.
14:55	@chouser	(use '[clojure.contrib.http.agent :only [foo bar]])
14:56	@chouser	(use '[clojure.contrib.http.agent :as http :only []]) ... (http/foo ...)
14:57	Norrit	thanks (use '[clojure.contrib.http.agent :only [http-agent]]) works great
14:58	slyphon	is "locking" re-entrant?
15:00	slyphon	by the same thread?
15:01	timcharper	I posted this to twitter, but a few of you may be interested in this: http://gist.github.com/367421
15:01	timcharper	(Maybe something else already exists like it?)
15:01	maxhodak	division is giving me exact fractions
15:02	maxhodak	how do i get decimal results back?
15:02	slyphon	rhickey: sorry to bother you, is the "locking" macro reentrant by the same thread?
15:02	maxhodak	i.e., (/ (reduce + a) (count a)) -> 2/25 or 3/5 or such
15:02	slyphon	rhickey: in ruby the Monitor class is reentrant, but the Mutex class isn't, so i wanted to make sure i'm DTRT
15:03	maxhodak	,(/ (reduce + [1 2 3 4 5]) (count [1 2 3 4 5]))
15:03	clojurebot	3
15:03	maxhodak	er
15:04	maxhodak	,(/ (reduce + [0 0 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 0]) (count [0 0 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 0]))
15:04	clojurebot	1/2
15:04	maxhodak	wtf
15:04	slyphon	that's a lisp-ism, iirc
15:05	@chouser	slyphon: locking blocks access to it's body to any but one thread at a time. Perhaps I don't understand your question.
15:05	maxhodak	oh wait
15:05	maxhodak	,(Float. (/ (reduce + [0 0 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 0]) (count [0 0 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 0])))
15:05	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found for class java.lang.Float
15:05	maxhodak	:(
15:06	@chouser	,(double 2/3)
15:06	clojurebot	0.6666666666666667
15:06	maxhodak	chouser: thanks
15:06	slyphon	chouser: can thread X grab lock Y multiple times without blocking?
15:06	@chouser	ah! I think not.
15:07	slyphon	balls!
15:07	slyphon	ok
15:07	@chouser	should be easy to test. hang on.
15:07	slyphon	yeah, i was about to
15:07	slyphon	i need a reentrant lock
15:08	@chouser	I thought I had done this before and got instant deadlock, but now it's acting differently than I remember
15:08	slyphon	hmm
15:09	@chouser	,(let [x (Object.)] (locking x (prn 1) (locking x (prn 2))))
15:09	clojurebot	1 2
15:09	@chouser	no deadlock
15:09	slyphon	ah
15:09	slyphon	oh, well, excellent
15:11	@chouser	"Gain exclusive ownership of a raw monitor. The same thread may enter a monitor more then once. The thread must exit the monitor the same number of times as it is entered."
15:11	slyphon	ah
15:11	slyphon	is that under the "locking" docs?
15:11	@chouser	that's from some random jvm docs on the web. combined with results of experimentation, I think you're safe.
15:11	slyphon	i went looking to find the java impl of monitor-enter but couldn't make heads-or-tails of what i found
15:11	slyphon	chouser: cool
15:11	slyphon	chouser: ty
15:12	@chouser	slyphon: yeah, it decends rapidly from the 'locking' macro to raw JVM bytecodes.
15:13	slyphon	rhickey: sorry to bother you, chouser fielded that one admirably
15:14	slyphon	er, "to not"
15:22	riddochc	Hi, folks... looks like current -contrib doesn't build with current master of clojure.
15:23	riddochc	Or, actually, has errors...
15:23	riddochc	ERROR in (complex-division) (run-test108689328942713466.clj:44)
15:23	riddochc	expected: (= (/ (imaginary 5) (imaginary 5)) 1) actual: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No method in multimethod '/' for dispatch value: :clojure.contrib.complex-numbers/pure-imaginary
15:24	rhickey	riddochc: did you mvn clean?
15:25	rhickey	all clear here
15:25	riddochc	rhickey: I'll try that, though it was a fresh git checkout...
15:26	jfields	if I have a symbol that references a function, how can I call that function?
15:26	rhickey	jfields: a symbol or a var?
15:26	riddochc	rhickey: By the way, thanks for clojure. It's pretty much what I've always wanted: a modern, useful lisp.
15:27	jfields	(defn x [] 0) (doseq [y ['x]] (println y) (println ... how do I get 0 for the 2nd println?
15:29	riddochc	Curious. I'm setting it up on a different system (laptop crash) and I wonder if there's an issue that it's using openjdk instead of sun's.
15:32	jfields	there must be a better way to do this
15:32	jfields	(doseq [y ['x]] (println y) (println (eval (list y))))
15:34	riddochc	Oh well, I'll just use sun's java. I guess my distro just defaulted to openjdk.
15:37	rhickey	jfields: ,((resolve 'inc) 41)
15:37	rhickey	,((resolve 'inc) 41)
15:37	clojurebot	42
15:38	rhickey	riddochc: you're welcome
15:39	jfields	thanks Rich
15:44	technomancy	riddochc: I have yet to notice a difference between openjdk and sun that affects clojure
15:44	technomancy	but there's a first time for everything I guess
15:44	wthidden	How do I call a static inner class java method from clojure?
15:44	riddochc	technomancy: Could just be my setup. We'll find out in a moment.
15:45	wthidden	I have class Scheduler that has a static inner class error with method eror that takes 2 strings.
15:45	technomancy	yeah, works here with openjdk
15:45	@chouser	(the.package.name.Scheduler$Error/error "thing1" "thing2")
15:46	wthidden	i thought I'd do (Scheduler$error/error "path" "exception") but seem not to be able to get the method.
15:46	@chouser	wthidden: you can check that (show Scheduler$error) has the methods you expect
15:47	@chouser	wthidden: note that if you're trying to do without the full package name, you need to have imported Scheduler$error, not just Scheduler
15:47	wthidden	chouser: ah that might help.
15:47	wthidden	chouser:ooh did not do that yet...
15:48	wthidden	hmm from what context does show work?
15:49	wthidden	is that from the introspect package?
15:50	@chouser	clojure.contrib.repl-utils/show
15:51	riddochc	Okay, all the exceptions I'm getting from clojure-contrib tests are coming from "Testing clojure.contrib.test-complex-numbers"
15:52	@chouser	hm, you know the number of people saying they don't use contrib or don't know how to get it has been down lately.
15:52	@chouser	I wonder if that's because of build.clojure.org, or something else.
15:55	riddochc	Looks like all the exceptions are of the variety: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No method in multimethod 'sqrt' for dispatch value: :clojure.contrib.complex-numbers/complex... sometimes, substitute '+', '-', '/', 'exp', or '*' for 'sqrt'...
15:56	riddochc	The errors are limited to the complex-numbers tests, it looks like.
15:56	riddochc	Ran 359 tests containing 1248 assertions.
15:56	riddochc	4 failures, 253 errors.
15:57	riddochc	Odd.
16:04	hiredman	does anyone have an example of a macro that emits a type hinted method call?
16:29	riddochc	Oy. The maven "getting started guide" is awful. Quote: ...in a nutshell Maven is an attempt to apply patterns to a project's build infrastructure in order to promote comprehension and productivity by providing a clear path in the use of best practices.
16:29	gregh	with synergy.
16:30	riddochc	Makes me want to just stop reading, right there. "Oops, wrong document. I'm not An Enterprise."
16:32	lancepantz	saw a book title today: Eliminating Waste in Software Projects, with the subtitle "The enterprise 2.0 concept applied to lean software development."
16:32	lancepantz	yay, enterprise 2.0
16:35	riddochc	I think the appropriate phrase involves a valley accent: "Like, totally gag me with a spoon, or some junk."
16:35	riddochc	Anyway. Gotta run. Have fun clojuring, folks.
16:36	arohner	hiredman: the gvec code does a lot of it
16:36	arohner	I think
16:37	hiredman	:(
16:39	hiredman	not a whole lot, actually
16:40	hiredman	infact, at a quick glance it only does it once
16:40	hiredman	http://gist.github.com/367619 I don't see why I get that reflection warning
16:47	remleduff	Are you supposed to be able to take the value of a method as a field like that?
16:48	Chousuke	hiredman: I think tags are supposed to be symbols, not actual class objects
16:48	hiredman	ayeee
16:50	hiredman	Chousuke: excellent
16:53	remleduff	Out of curiosity, what was the magic?
16:54	remleduff	(let [x (gensym)] `(fn [~x] (. ~(with-meta x {:tag (resolve 'String)}) toString))) doesn't seem to make any difference to me
16:55	Chousuke	just :tag 'String
16:56	remleduff	Aha
16:56	Chousuke	reflection can be avoided if the symbol's metadata contains a value for the :tag key that is either a symbol or a string naming the class
16:59	LauJensen	hiredman: Aren't you looking for something like the aget! and aset! macros in my FD blog post?
17:00	hiredman	nope
17:03	remleduff	Does the reader actually "read" the result of macros? I was trying to get #^String to work in that example, but it doesn't seem to every take effect. If not, how do {} literals work? Are they not really reader macros?
17:03	remleduff	s/every/ever
17:03	remleduff	Actually, there's no macro there, is there
17:05	hiredman	remleduff: the reader's job is to transform text into datastructures, macros already are operating on datastructures, why would the reader still be involved?
17:05	remleduff	,(eval `(fn [#^String x#] (. x# toString)))
17:05	clojurebot	DENIED
17:08	remleduff	I don't know, it's just too easy for me to think of reader macros as "magic things that do stuff", I need to be sure to keep what they do clear in my head I guess.
17:08	@chouser	remleduff: #^Foo works inside syntax-quote in some places, but by no means in all.
17:09	Chousuke	remleduff: don't confuse reader macros with normal macros :)
17:11	@chouser	,(binding [print-meta true] (prn `(#^Foo x)))
17:11	clojurebot	(#^sandbox/Foo sandbox/x)
17:11	@chouser	,(binding [print-meta true] (prn `(#^Foo x#)))
17:11	clojurebot	(#^sandbox/Foo x__10025__auto__)
17:11	@chouser	so those work, but this does not:
17:11	@chouser	,(binding [print-meta true] (prn `(#^Foo ~'x)))
17:12	clojurebot	(x)
17:14	remleduff	Because x is being captured from the environment there, and you can't "change" its metadata only create a new value with with-meta?
17:14	remleduff	,(binding [print-meta true] (prn `((with-meta ~'x {:tag 'Foo})))
17:14	clojurebot	EOF while reading
17:15	remleduff	,(binding [print-meta true] (prn `((with-meta ~'x {:tag 'Foo}))))
17:15	clojurebot	((clojure.core/with-meta x {:tag (quote sandbox/Foo)}))
17:15	Chousuke	,(binding [print-meta true] (prn `(~'#^Foo x)))
17:15	clojurebot	(#^Foo x)
17:15	remleduff	That's way too many sigils ;)
17:15	Chousuke	hehe
17:16	Chousuke	fortunately you almost never need that
17:16	Chousuke	only if you absolutely must emit an unqualified constant symbol with a type hint :P
17:16	remleduff	Will that actually ever be "read" though, to allow the #^Foo to work on x?
17:17	Chousuke	with a constant type hint, even
17:17	Chousuke	yes. When the macro is defined
17:19	Chousuke	it gets read into a data structure something like the following: (binding [print-meta true] (prn (list (quote x))) where the symbol x has metadata
17:20	@chouser	,(binding [print-meta true] (prn `(~(with-meta `x {:tag `Foo}))))
17:20	clojurebot	(#^sandbox/Foo sandbox/x)
17:21	@chouser	basically there are certain expansions in syntax-quote that ignore the metadata you put on the pre-expansion thing (using #^), and in those cases you may have to using something else.
17:21	@chouser	the closest equivalent is what I just pasted, using with-meta inside an unquote (~)
17:22	Chousuke	#^Foo is amusing with quote since you must remember that 'bar expads to (quote bar)
17:22	Chousuke	so #^Foo 'bar puts metadata on the list
17:22	Chousuke	and you have to use the slightly unintuitive form '#^Foo bar :)
17:23	remleduff	OK, I'll chew on that for a while
17:25	fyuryu	hmm, I get 4 test failures in contrib. is it just me?
17:29	slyphon	rhickey: it'd be nice if there was some way in the ns macro, in the :require clause to have single names mean ':as', i find my code has a lot of (foo :as foo) (bar :as bar)
17:29	slyphon	inside the context of some outer namespace
17:35	tomoj	I've wondered before about wrapping ns
17:36	tomoj	seems like a difficult thing to do
17:36	tomoj	(use '[my.ns :only my-ns]) (my-ns ...) I guess
17:36	tomoj	except without the mistake
17:37	tomoj	probably a terrible idea
17:37	tomoj	I just feel bad having all this Macro Power but not being able to bend ns to my will
17:37	slyphon	tomoj: ns is narsty
17:38	slyphon	tomoj: http://onclojure.com/2010/02/17/managing-namespaces/
17:38	sexpbot	Managing namespaces « On Clojure
17:38	tomoj	oh, someone's already done it! hah
17:38	slyphon	only works w/ 1.2
17:39	tomoj	I suppose you might also someone have your ns+ cause the namespaces it loads to automatically have ns+ available
17:39	tomoj	but that sounds even more evil
17:39	slyphon	:)
17:39	tomoj	because then the file won't compile on its own
17:39	slyphon	yeah, with something like that, it's probably better to actually know what the fuck is going on
17:39	tomoj	I just don't like the '
17:40	tomoj	(use nstools.ns) would be cool, but (use 'nstools.ns) is unacceptable
17:41	tomoj	not sure I like :like
17:41	slyphon	i like the idea, though
17:41	slyphon	sort of "templatized namespaces"
17:42	slyphon	in ruby, i'd have either a base class or a module i'd import into things for this purpose
17:42	tomoj	well, I meant I'm not sure if I like the idea
17:42	tomoj	it means you have to run around looking for what's actually in the namespace
17:42	slyphon	ehhh
17:42	tomoj	(right?)
17:42	slyphon	well, you'd probably have one or two central places with the "base" namespaces defined
17:42	slyphon	i think it'd make things easier
17:43	tomoj	hmm, that's interesting
17:43	slyphon	like, i have an exception class that should basically be imported everywhere
17:43	tomoj	I don't think I have enough duplication in my ns decls to benefit much, though, but maybe I just haven't noticed it
19:28	merchantly	hi - i'm extremely new to clojure/lisp, so sorry if this is a really lame question. How do you update a value in a set? For example if I have a set (def my-data {"Michael" 25, "Michelle" 26}), how do I update Michael's value to 28?
19:29	technomancy	merchantly: (assoc my-data "Michael" 28)
19:29	programble	merchantly: assoc
19:29	programble	aw
19:29	programble	was beat to it
19:30	merchantly	thanks
19:33	technomancy	merchantly: "How do you update a value in a set?" it's actually in a map fwiw
19:34	programble	yer'
19:34	merchantly	ok thanks, that's helpful
19:34	merchantly	is set something else?
19:35	carkh	#{:a :set :of :5 :values}
19:35	carkh	also you're not quite updating the map, you're creating a new map as these are immutable
19:41	merchantly	when I use assoc to create the new map, how come when I call my-data it hasn't changed?
19:42	carkh	because it's immutable
19:42	programble	because your not changing it
19:42	carkh	calling assoc returns a new map
19:42	carkh	but does not modify the binding of my-data
19:42	merchantly	so i have to rebind it?
19:43	carkh	usually you would use an atom or a ref for that purpose
19:43	carkh	for instance : (def my-data (atom {"Michael" 25, "Michelle" 26}))
19:44	carkh	then to change michael's age : (swap! my-data assoc "Michael" 26)
19:45	carkh	there is a talk somewhere about identity and state
19:45	carkh	you might want to check it out
19:46	merchantly	ok thanks - i'll look it up
19:49	carkh	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Value-Identity-State-Rich-Hickey
19:49	carkh	tho infoq is down right now
19:49	carkh	so i couldn't check if it's the actual talk i'm refering to =/
19:50	merchantly	just read through this: http://clojure.org/state, I "think" I get it
19:51	carkh	yep good introduction, tho it's always good to hear ritch's talks
19:52	carkh	hum last thing : don't forget you're now working with an atom, so you can't just use it as a simpe map
19:53	carkh	to access michael's age you need to do this : (get @my-data "Michael")
19:53	carkh	@my-data is shorthand for (deref my-data)
20:04	merchantly	ok so I want to add 1 to Michael's age and then change my-data to reflect that, here's what I came up with: (swap! my-data assoc "Michael" (+ (get @my-data "Michael") 1))
20:04	merchantly	is that the right way to do it?
20:04	programble	or use inc
20:05	programble	,(+ 5 1)
20:05	clojurebot	6
20:05	programble	,(inc 5)
20:05	clojurebot	6
20:09	merchantly	cool - ok I just tried to change that into a function, but I'm missing something: (defn year-older [name] (swap! my-data assoc name (inc (get @my-data name))))
20:09	merchantly	nm
20:09	merchantly	it works
20:09	merchantly	awesome
20:10	technomancy	if you make it a map of names to atoms then you could just swap with inc
20:11	technomancy	,(let [name "Michael", my-data {name (atom 22)}] (swap! (my-data name) inc) my-data)
20:11	clojurebot	{"Michael" #<Atom@a3686b: 23>}
20:12	technomancy	depends on where you want to emphasize the fact of mutability
20:13	carkh	i would recommend putting the muttable thing as high as possible, make your functions work with and return immutable objects, and have the atom stuff as top-level calls
20:14	carkh	so to use inc directly : (swap! my-data update-in ["Michael"] inc)
20:14	technomancy	totally depends on the situation imo
20:14	technomancy	but bonus points for using update-in
20:15	carkh	technomancy: agreed it depends, but the common case is that you don't need to sprinkle atoms all over the place
20:15	carkh	or refs
20:16	carkh	that would be going back to imperative programming
20:16	technomancy	need more context to tell
20:17	merchantly	alright im trying to understand each example
20:18	technomancy	the lack of indentation certainly doesn't help
20:20	merchantly	ok so in the update-in example, we're taking the value of "Michael", then incrementing it, then updating the value, and then swapping the data in the atom?
20:20	carkh	errr i'm viewing it the other way around, but yes
20:21	merchantly	could you explain how you view it? I'm trying to wrap my head around how to think about it
20:22	carkh	swap! will make you worl with the value inside the atom, we want to update that value, at the 'Michael' position, there is an age which needs to be incremented
20:22	carkh	worl->work
20:23	carkh	exactly what you said, in reverse order =)
20:40	merchantly	thanks for all the help carkh
20:40	carkh	=)
20:54	Raynes	Where did shuffle go?
20:54	Raynes	I've noticed it's not in c.c.string.
20:55	Raynes	Or was it in seq?
20:55	Raynes	Ah, I think it was.
20:56	weissj	clojurebot: paste
20:56	clojurebot	lisppaste8, url
20:57	weissj	lisppaste8: url
20:57	weissj	hm
20:57	weissj	somebody help me out :)
20:58	Raynes	gist.github.com
21:00	weissj	Raynes: cool thx
21:00	weissj	can someone point me to an example project.clj that has swank-clojure as a dev-dependency? i run lein swank and it complains
21:01	weissj	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassFormatError: clojure.contrib.pprint.PrettyWriter (erroneous identifier) (pprint.clj:6)>
21:01	weissj	Make sure swank-clojure is added as a dev-dependency in your project.clj.
21:01	weissj	i have a feeling it's not really complaining about swank
21:01	weissj	it's seems to be complaining about pprint
21:15	Raynes	Hrm.
22:20	AntonyBlakey	Anyone have a recommendation for unit-testing html generators i.e. parsing and asserting things about html documents?
22:28	rlubke	AntonyBlakey: HtmlUnit?
22:28	AntonyBlakey	I don't want to simulate the browser
22:28	AntonyBlakey	because I'm dealing with incomplete fragments
22:30	AntonyBlakey	But for full pages and system testing, yes I'd use HtmlUnit.
22:31	sattvik	AntonyBlakey: I've heard that enlive can be used for scraping HTML. I have not done it, so I do not know how well it would work for testing.
22:31	AntonyBlakey	Thanks, I'll check enlive as well.
23:11	cachou	hello~ anyone play robocode here?
23:12	cachou	I met a problem. "java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError".
23:13	cachou	All code in the internet seems not work. I'am using clojure-1.1.0, Is it a version problem?
23:41	Losha	Hello
23:42	dsnyders	Hi
23:45	Losha	Do people need to be registered to use this channel. Someone was asking on #ubuntu...
23:46	hiredman	freenode instituted a spam fighting measure a while back, but no ops to turn it off
23:46	johnmn3	test
23:47	johnmn3	ok, it works.. thanks Losha and dsnyders
23:47	johnmn3	I had to register
23:47	Losha	thanks hiredman...
23:47	cp2	might explain why its been so quiet lately =P
23:48	johnmn3	I haven't been on here in a while but I was reading my news feeds and I've been noticing the term 'defrecord' ... what's that all about?
23:48	johnmn3	similar to deftype?
23:50	Raynes	johnmn3: http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core_deftype.clj#L189 The doc strings of defrecord and deftype should be enlightening.
23:55	johnmn3	I did try to read the doc string before. I have a hard time understanding those sometimes.
23:56	johnmn3	the docs for deftype and defrecord seem similar, though I noticed the bit on IPersistentMap in deftype.