#clojure – 2010-04-16

2010-04-16

00:05	johnmn3	I mean, what kind of record are we talking about here? The first time I saw it, I thought they were talking about an sql thing.
00:17	remleduff_	In emacs, iIf I've got a pretty old repl and some files that have had a bunch of edits, is there a way to compile fresh and make sure that all the changes make it to the repl? I was working today, and had some stuff that had functions defined in the wrong order but I didn't notice because my repl state itself was fine.
00:17	carkh	remleduff_: no
00:17	johnmn3	ok, so with defrecord we can treat an object like a map, with the keys/vals as getters and setters?
00:18	johnmn3	ok, I think I see.
00:46	technomancy	remleduff_: if you have one namespace that requires all the others, you can require it with reload-all: (require 'my-root-namespace :reload-all)
00:46	technomancy	and all the dependent ones will get loaded
01:33	Licenser_	greetings
01:51	zmila	re
02:49	vIkSiT	hmm. quick question. I'm fetching some data using http.agent and the result comes out as a clojure.lang.lazyseq.
02:49	vIkSiT	I was wondering - how do I convert this to text? (The result is actually in JSON format, from the representation)
02:50	vIkSiT	oh got it.
02:50	zmila	lazy seq of what? you can convert seq into text by (str )
02:52	slyphon	anyone run into problems like: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: interface com.atomikos.datasource.pool.Reapable is not visible from class loader
02:52	slyphon	this code works on Mac OS-X, but linux seems unhappy with me
03:01	piccolino	I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the docs for deftype etc. Is it possible to extend a Java class, maintaining the implementations of the functions you don't override?
03:05	mae	hi, need a job
03:05	mae	in california
03:05	mae	close to bakersfield
03:07	piccolino	Oops, there it is, nevermind.
03:07	mae	boom.
03:08	slyphon	goes the dynamite
03:08	mae	ice ice baby...
03:08	mae	so here is my lament, if anyone cares:
03:09	mae	i have been involved in open source with the ruby/ror and haskell/happstack
03:09	mae	took steady boring job, administrating windows, bla bla, we make carrots
03:10	mae	now i like clojure, but stuck at nice but boring (not using my skills) job
03:10	mae	the end
03:10	slyphon	such is life?
03:11	mae	anyone want a free programmer to see if i am any good? for prospects of future jobs?
03:11	mae	sombered look
03:11	mae	ok time to go make some baby bottles
03:11	mae	the irc monologue is definitely not represented on twitter
03:11	mae	so alas i am here
03:19	mae	wrong channel i guess
03:21	Licenser_	morning
03:21	mae	morning
03:21	Licenser_	mae: I feel your pain
03:22	Licenser_	So I'd take a free programmer but I don't have a job for you :P
03:25	mae	lol
03:25	mae	thats the bottom of the bottom
03:25	mae	so uh, what do you do then?
03:26	Licenser_	mae: why is that the bottom of the bottom :P I don't need one for commercial work, I'm not that low ;
03:26	Licenser_	)
03:26	Licenser_	we're installing servers for TelCo's
03:26	mae	cool
03:27	Apage43	mae: I am on a support/operations team at work
03:27	mae	the problem i face is that my job is way easy, and my skills are atrophying
03:27	Apage43	i have clojure on my box
03:27	Apage43	and use it in pressing situations to quickly write things like log-file analyzers and monitors for things
03:27	Licenser_	mae: yea that is why I write open source stuff in my free time so I don't get rusty
03:27	mae	heh
03:27	mae	i will not bcome a blog
03:27	mae	ugh
03:27	mae	blob
03:28	Licenser_	a blob?
03:28	mae	yes
03:28	Licenser_	as in a table cell that can helpd binary data?
03:28	mae	Licenser_: must be nice, does it pay well
03:28	Licenser_	writing open source? does not pay :)
03:28	mae	no kidding
03:28	mae	i hate that
03:28	mae	i could get 3 sap jobs
03:29	Licenser_	well it gives me the fluffy warm feeling of doing something good
03:29	mae	before i get one open source job
03:29	mae	its not good if no one uses it for something useful
03:29	mae	it is practically masturbation
03:29	Licenser_	well look at rhickey he writes clojure open source and it is a darn good thing
03:29	mae	true
03:29	Licenser_	mae: is science mastrubating?
03:29	pd	if it's good science
03:30	Licenser_	heh
03:30	mae	lol
03:30	LauJensen	Mornin team
03:30	Licenser_	morning LauJensen
03:30	mae	but what i need, to make clojure rock, is a useful thing to create, for a real purpose
03:30	mae	so that way i can find the bugs
03:30	mae	and it is achieving something
03:30	Licenser_	there are no bugs, there are only feature
03:30	mae	until i have a real reason, it will be crap
03:30	mae	this is my opinion
03:31	Licenser_	mae: clojure is so young that you still can write usefull tools/libs that contribute to the comunity
03:31	mae	Licenser_: spoken like a true glass-half full kind of guy :)
03:31	Licenser_	mae: I am :)
03:31	mae	Licenser_: yes, but I am not looking to write tools for fun, i am looking to write programs for money so i can feed my family :)
03:31	mae	heh
03:31	Apage43	mae: just try and use clojure for the next thing you need to do
03:31	Licenser_	unless it comes to work related topics I am a hopeless optimist
03:31	mae	Licenser_: same here.
03:32	LauJensen	mae: So whats the problem? Get to it
03:32	mae	Apage43: i haven't done anything, thats the point, i haven't been using that skillset, i'm a sysadmin
03:32	mae	LauJensen: heh, well thats why i'm here
03:32	Apage43	What kind of sysadmin?
03:32	mae	i'm looking for something useful to program
03:32	Licenser_	mae: technically I am a system integrator, still I write clojure code to optimize as much stuff as I can
03:32	mae	and someone with a bit of business sense
03:33	mae	Licenser_: interesting
03:33	Apage43	I threw this together at work to monitor the output of netstat \| grep somehost \| wc -l on a box without watch while researching a database load issue http://gist.github.com/368131
03:33	Apage43	for example.
03:34	mae	mae: open and free and useful welcomes maintenance and evolution, but it doesn't lead to money. don't you want to do what love while making money? heh
03:34	mae	so you have to find a money use in my opinion
03:34	LauJensen	mae: Just reading the log I'd really advice against offering free services
03:34	pd	mae: having your name attached to popular projects, even if only in a handful of commits fixing minor bugs is a big ++ in getting your next gig
03:35	mae	LauJensen: i guess i was going for a bait and switch :)
03:35	pd	open source doesn't pay but sometimes open source friends know people who do
03:35	mae	pd: really, does that work for you?
03:36	pd	it has, yes, and i've seen it work even better for people who, erm, "invest in the community" more than i do
03:36	mae	i have a few days when i could program
03:36	Licenser_	mae: I got a friend a job at my company because I worked with him before and truste dhim
03:36	mae	5 days off from work, hanging out at home
03:36	mae	starting saturday
03:36	mae	pd: heh
03:36	mae	pd: i guess i'm lazy
03:37	mae	i know i can fix bugs but it doesn't seem glamourous
03:37	Apage43	in my experience.. you really can't just decide "I have time, so.. i'm going to come up with a kickass idea to program during that time/"
03:37	Licenser_	mae: I'm nut sure either lazy or smart :P
03:37	mae	i'm a bit of a premadonna in case you haven't noticed
03:37	mae	but i'm a talented one
03:37	mae	: )
03:37	Apage43	ideas don't manifest themselves under that kind of pressure for me
03:37	mae	<-- conceited
03:37	Apage43	shrug
03:37	mae	heh
03:37	mae	yeah
03:37	mae	well
03:37	Licenser_	but Apage43 I agre either you have a great idea or you don't
03:38	mae	for me to spend time i think it has to be "i'll pay you x for doing y" kind of thing, but just a small project, not lrage.
03:38	mae	large *
03:38	mae	i'll even do it dirt cheap
03:38	Apage43	mae: think about anyone you know that might be able to pay for for a project
03:38	mae	as long as the goals are concrete
03:38	mae	Apage43: i see
03:39	mae	Apage43: so feed off of someone elses creativity? that doesn't sound like a bad idea
03:39	Apage43	i for one just found out the place my roommate works might be willing to pay someone to replace some software they use (because it sucks).
03:39	Apage43	not creativity leeching, the place happens to have a need that isn't adequately filled currently.
03:39	Apage43	Just see if there's someone who's life you can make easier :]
03:39	pd	you could try door-to-door programming
03:40	mae	Apage43: market thineself?
03:40	Licenser_	mae: so seriousely I think this is the wrong place to look for a job for some reasons A) most people here do stuff for free that is cool B) not may people here use clojure for comercial stuff C)if someone is actuall looking for a coder they most likely won't know you and rahter hire someone who hands them some kind of portfolio
03:40	Apage43	mae: rather, network.
03:41	mae	Apage43: i think avoiding language zealotry is pretty much a solid requirement for doing stuff like that, i have to be a jack of all trades. i think i am still a zealot.
03:41	Apage43	i didn't ask around
03:41	Apage43	people who know me know what i can do so when they hear that thing X needs doing they know I can do it.
03:42	mae	Apage43: that sounds like a good way to approach it
03:43	mae	Apage43: i guess i find it hard to find a target market in my town for advanced programming tasks, i know how to find ms access jobs, or other similar tarded platforms
03:43	mae	Apage43: good for you
03:43	Apage43	not that i enjoy my day job >.>
03:44	mae	hehe
03:44	mae	i think you could probably make it enjoyable
03:44	Apage43	yeah. corporate politics.
03:44	mae	my problem is i am underpaid for my position, and upward growth is hard right now
03:44	mae	Apage43: i have alot of politics
03:44	Apage43	and an anomalous situation resulting in me being paid.. not very much at all for what i do.
03:45	Apage43	I am.. probably more skilled than most folks I've met and paid the least.
03:45	mae	Apage43: i feel as if i am in a similar boat
03:45	mae	i wouldn't believe it if you said it on twitter though
03:46	mae	on irc i do believe it
03:46	Licenser_	is irc a more trustworthy medium? o.O
03:46	mae	well
03:47	mae	lets just say the 'OG's of open source tend to be on irc
03:47	mae	the flashy ruby crowd started the twitter thing :)
03:47	Licenser_	there are a lot of smart ruby folks
03:47	mae	yeah i know
03:47	mae	just saying
03:48	Apage43	shrug stuff like me being the only person on the team who knows that FTP opens more than one connection in different directions and that the manner in which its failing points to a firewall issue and noone calling the firewall team for hours regardless of what I say
03:48	mae	i consider an irc'er to be of a higher pedigree than a twitter person
03:48	mae	generally speaking of course
03:48	mae	Apage43: lol1
03:48	mae	the ftp thing is interesting
03:49	Apage43	or not believing me when I tell them the guy telling them to "recycle the ftp client service on your side" is bullshitting them and there isn't an "ftp client service" and he's trying to get them off the phone so he can go to lunch
03:49	mae	i am the only sysadmin out of 3 that has any real linux experience, and really understands networking
03:49	mae	they for instance, couldn't even calculate a subnet mask to save their lives
03:50	Apage43	yeah. I finally get on the phone with our actual network guys and start talking at low level about the protocol the app in question uses and what it does and everyone's eyes glaze over and crap gets fixed and everybody's like "Yay!"
03:50	Apage43	"I have no idea what you just said."
03:50	mae	haha
03:50	mae	let me guess
03:50	mae	"what port is it?"
03:51	Apage43	well this was a NAT issue so it was a bit more complex than that
03:51	mae	most people think that blocking certain ports will prevent certain services
03:51	mae	http running on 80, for instance
03:51	mae	anyone with half a brain knows thats not true
03:52	mae	i think that computer professionals have started to fit on the bellcurve
03:52	mae	there is os much demand that quality will vary alot
03:52	mae	(for computer services, for example)
03:53	Apage43	on top of this I've programmed changes to some of our apps that literally saved 20hrs off the work week of several people. I've saved the company more money than they'll ever pay me =P
03:54	mae	so you get thrown in with interviewing against someone who is very below you in terms of real skill. its no comfort that skill rarely comes into play anyways, usually impressions and politics
03:54	mae	yeah quantifying that stuff is hard sometimes
03:55	mae	in any case, i am going to keep looking, suggestions welcomed
03:55	Apage43	fun fun, enjoy.
03:55	mae	and in the meantime i will continue to slay the business objects beast (now sap) daily
03:56	Apage43	shudder
03:56	Apage43	we're undergoing a huge SAP upgrade right now
03:56	mae	fantastic!
04:33	vegai	what graphics libraries does clojure/java provide, for gaming purposes?
04:35	hoeck	vegai: clj-processing, a third party lib to processing
04:35	hoeck	vegai: or use java gaming frameworks, eg. slick2d
04:36	hoeck	vagai: clojures java interop features are so good, you often won't need a specific clojure wrapper for those java libs
04:37	vegai	aye
04:38	vegai	I've effectively avoided touching Java for a long time, so I'm a bit blind to whatever it provides
04:39	AWizzArd	vegai: maybe you want also have a look at http://github.com/ztellman/penumbra which allows you to access gpl, be it for display or complex and fast calculations on your video card.
04:39	hoeck	for very simple games, a use swing JPanel and its update method wich lets you draw directly via point, line etc methods
04:40	LauJensen	vegai: For Gaming you have 2 good options, 1) Penumbra, 2) JMoneyEngine, the latter being a complete gaming engine
04:43	eevar2	vegai: jogl, if you just want plain opengl drawing
04:47	LauJensen	or Slick2D, but I couldnt get any decent performance out of it
04:47	LauJensen	(I might be the problem in that case though =))
05:18	AWizzArd	Moin cemerick.
05:18	AWizzArd	Was there some update yesterday, regarding auto constructors/factories for records?
05:20	cemerick	AWizzArd: :-)
05:20	cemerick	It sounded like the status quo will hold for a little while.
05:21	AWizzArd	cemerick: I tend to like the idea to simply keep (Foo. ...) as the only constructor for 1.2 and then see how it is going to be used. And in 1.3 new stuff can be added if needed. Better than removing things later on.
05:22	cemerick	It certainly sounds like user-defined factory fns are in the works, but support for more than one per defrecord, so perhaps not a default /create, etc. shrug
05:24	Chousuke	hm
05:24	LauJensen	I didn't understand the objection to the c/create syntax - Is it because it would then replace the period sugar ?
05:24	Chousuke	why is it that when I'm writing an answer to a question on the group, by the time I post it several people have already posted theirs ;P
05:28	AWizzArd	cemerick: yes, in the end I am certain we will need user defined factories. Currently for all my deftypes I have a (defn make-foo [] ...).
05:28	AWizzArd	And indeed, for some I have (defn (make-foo [a] ...) (make-foo [a b c] ...))
05:29	edbond	vimclojure problem: Could not determine the Namespace of the file. how to fix?
05:30	cemerick	Chousuke: I think that's the direction that the factory fns will come in. Otherwise, I figure, why not reuse Foo. and (new Foo ...)...
05:30	edbond	solved: CLASSPATH=src ~/vimclojure/bin/ng-server
05:30	AWizzArd	LauJensen: I thought Rich wanted a static method Foo/create so that this can be more than a mere class constructor, not be bound to Java constructors.
05:30	cemerick	or, I should say, Foo. is going to be there regardless, so why bother with another form for a simple ctor.
05:31	LauJensen	Simpler is better
05:31	licoresse	if I wanted to write (comp dec dec dec) using some sort of repeat, how to?
05:31	cemerick	LauJensen: ach, my last to Chousuke was for you ^^
05:31	cemerick	it's too early
05:31	LauJensen	ah
05:31	AWizzArd	cemerick: yes, Foo. would be enough imo, when people are writing their make-foo's anyway
05:34	AWizzArd	The most annoying thing about an auto-generated create-Foo would be that uppercase ‘F’.
05:34	cemerick	stuff like that is just the tip of the iceberg w.r.t. auto-generated fns IMO
05:35	AWizzArd	;-)
05:35	LauJensen	Whats the deal with that. If you define some kind of class via Clojure, you then automatically get a fn called create-Class ? Seems so hacked together
05:36	cemerick	no, you don't
05:36	cemerick	it's been proposed, though
05:36	AWizzArd	In the end it’s all aesthetics, because from a technical side there is no real problem. But then again, programming languages are there for aesthetics and not so much more. They help us because we humans are lousy programmers.
05:36	cemerick	it's not all aesthetics
05:36	LauJensen	AWizzArd: I must admit I cant see far enough into the future to predict if either model will produce problems
05:36	cemerick	if there's one way to create a thing in clojure, that's good
05:37	LauJensen	Agreed
05:37	AWizzArd	LauJensen: same here, so I propose to just keep it with Foo. for now, and then wait until 1.3 to decide if autogens are helpful.
05:37	LauJensen	After reading some Ruby code, I've really come to appreciate how all Python code looks so much the same
05:38	cemerick	If there's to be more than one, the others should be discoverable and different enough in functionality to warrant the distinction.
05:39	AWizzArd	And the question is, if create-Foo is auto-generated, what more can it offer than Foo.?
05:39	AWizzArd	okay, can be used in (map create-Foo (bar))
05:40	AWizzArd	But then I would still have to write my own (defn make-foo [a b] (create-Foo a (bar b)))
05:47	AWizzArd	cemerick: do you know if it is possible to write print-dup output into a FileOutputStream into which I write java-serialized data, via ObjectOutputStreams .writeObject?
05:48	cemerick	you could probably do it, but it wouldn't be pretty
05:48	AWizzArd	Because I would like to serialize j.io.Serializable objects into there via .writeObject, but also put my defrecords into the same file, but there support print-dup.
05:48	cemerick	OIS and the reader can both read off one form at a time, and you could probably sniff for a leading # to determine clojure vs. java serialized forms
05:48	AWizzArd	i.e. one output file containing all serialized data
05:49	cemerick	seems like a painful, difficult path tho
05:49	LauJensen	OIS?
05:49	cemerick	ObjectInputStream
05:49	LauJensen	thx
05:49	AWizzArd	Or, I could have a Java class ClojureRecord with the fields recordType and serializedString and have those serialized?
05:51	AWizzArd	then (.writeObject (ClojureRecord. (type my-rec) (with-out-str (binding [print-dup true] (print my-rec)))))
05:51	cemerick	yeah, you could. The whole thing is way over the line of being a custom database format tho.
05:52	AWizzArd	in fact i need this for a db format :-)
05:52	AWizzArd	my soon-to-be-released Clojure DB
05:52	cemerick	oh, right, you write your own databases
05:53	cemerick	IMO, all those options are going to be horribly slow and difficult to maintain.
05:53	cemerick	Especially any time you're using the clojure reader to deserialize data, that's a slow, slow path.
05:54	LauJensen	really? Why
05:56	cemerick	In the simplest case, writing and reading a number as a string vs. using DataOutputStream et al. is slow.
05:56	cemerick	there's just much, much more to do
05:57	LauJensen	Yea ok. And the Java strings are huge
05:57	AWizzArd	the C way is nice where one can just write out a sequence of bytes and read it back in and then have exactly the same object agani
05:58	cemerick	LauJensen: huge?
05:58	LauJensen	2 bytes per char
05:58	AWizzArd	But in the end any kind of data needs to be mapped to some representation which can be mapped to that specific object
05:58	cemerick	right, UTF-16 internally. Welcome to an international world. :-)
05:59	cemerick	LauJensen: you should appreciate that :-)
05:59	LauJensen	cemerick: Actually I dont , but I live with
05:59	LauJensen	it
05:59	cemerick	LauJensen: you'd rather have a multitude of slightly different encodings?
05:59	AWizzArd	I would appreciate that more if the primitive chars would be 4 bytes and can each represent any unicode char.
06:00	LauJensen	Danish is a vile language only surpassed by swedish, dutch and finnish which ads nothing good to the world. So I think we should just stick with English in the IT business :)
06:00	cemerick	AWizzArd: BMP's not wide enough? ;-)
06:00	cemerick	ha
06:00	cemerick	An American Imperialist in Denmark! :-D
06:01	LauJensen	cemerick: Dont get me wrong - I didn't say a single good thing about America, nor the language you stole :)
06:01	cemerick	Embrace and extend.
06:01	AWizzArd	cemerick: for the first version i need something simple and human-readable, even if it is performance wise not the fastest serialization/deserialization
06:02	cemerick	I should get my clj-dbm project out there. That might be interesting to some.
06:02	AWizzArd	Too bad that the US did not vote to have german as their primary language
06:02	AWizzArd	There was this (probably wrong) rumor, than german lost only by 1 or 2 voices ;)
06:02	AWizzArd	http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa010820a.htm
06:02	sexpbot	German the Official US Language?
06:03	cemerick	that's funny
06:15	AWizzArd	I want: (foo Integer) ==> "java.lang.Integer"
06:15	AWizzArd	,(str Integer)
06:15	clojurebot	"class java.lang.Integer"
06:16	AWizzArd	for my own defrecord, producing the classname + ns
06:16	cemerick	,(.getName Integer)
06:16	clojurebot	"java.lang.Integer"
06:16	AWizzArd	works, thanks
06:17	AWizzArd	Although in the macro it looks like ~(.getName (eval type))
06:17	AWizzArd	(my-macro Foo) ==> "user.Foo"
06:18	LauJensen	AWizzArd: if you're in Emacs, hit C-c I and type Integer, that'll give you a list of all its methods
06:18	LauJensen	(and statics and fields)
06:18	AWizzArd	LauJensen: good trick, thx
06:19	LauJensen	np
06:22	AWizzArd	is there a clojure functions which shows me all superclasses and interfaces of a given class/object?
06:23	AWizzArd	,(parents Integer)
06:23	clojurebot	#{:clojure.contrib.math/integer java.lang.Number :clojure.contrib.json.write/pr :clojure.contrib.pprint.examples.json/pr java.lang.Comparable}
06:23	AWizzArd	ok
06:23	LauJensen	That and ancestors might be of interest to you
06:24	AWizzArd	Oh good.
06:25	hoeck	,(-> {} class supers)
06:25	clojurebot	#{clojure.lang.APersistentMap clojure.lang.IObj clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection java.lang.Iterable clojure.lang.Obj clojure.lang.AFn clojure.lang.Seqable clojure.lang.IEditableCollection clojure.lang.Counted clojure.lang.Associative java.util.Map java.lang.Object clojure.lang.IPersistentMap clojure.lang.IMeta java.util.concurrent.Callable java.io.Serializable clojure.lang.ILookup clojure.lang.IFn java.lang.Runnable}
06:25	LauJensen	Wow I cant believe my luck, this complete stranger just wrote "Dear friend, I wanted to transfer $12.000.000.000 to your country" and all he needs is a little money to get started! brb
06:25	hoeck	:)
06:34	AWizzArd	cemerick: btw, can Java only deserialize objects of Classes that were not dynamically produced?
06:34	AWizzArd	I mean, is that the reason why defrecords need to be AOTed to be deserializable?
06:34	cemerick	it can only deserialize objects of classes that have stable names
06:35	AWizzArd	But defrecords now do have stable names I think.
06:35	cemerick	Yes, that's my impression as well.
06:35	AWizzArd	(defrecord Foo ...) always produces namespace.Foo
06:35	AWizzArd	But this still can not be deserialized.
06:35	AWizzArd	Rich said it must be AOTed first.
06:35	cemerick	the question is whether any inner classes and such have stable names too, which I doubt.
06:36	AWizzArd	ok
07:00	LauJensen	Brians Brain on the frontpage of Lambda-the-ultimative - It just lives on and on :)
07:29	AWizzArd	Maybe Contrib could provide an efficient and general way for serialization.
07:30	AWizzArd	Something that can be added to classes that did not implement j.io.S, or records for which the author also didn't implement that interface or which can't be AOTed.
08:22	AWizzArd	cemerick: could we have in 1.2 something else than print-dup, based on Protocols (vs. defmethod print-dup ..)?
08:22	Licenser_	(doc print-dup)
08:22	clojurebot	"; "
08:22	Licenser_	wow that is helpful :P
08:23	cemerick	print-dup is undocumented on purpose
08:23	AWizzArd	hmm
08:23	Licenser_	so noone uses it?
08:23	cemerick	it's really quite experimental, for all these reasons
08:23	cemerick	no, it's used :-)
08:23	AWizzArd	but not encouraged
08:23	Licenser_	just noone knows what it does :P
08:23	cemerick	AWizzArd: yeah, that's possible. Likely not until/unless rhickey adds some kind of dispatch precedence to protocols, tho.
08:23	AWizzArd	Licenser_: you can use it via (binding [print-dup true] (print your-object)
08:24	Licenser_	hmm I am always thinking of how to improve the clojure documentation and I'm not entirely sure what the best way would be
08:24	AWizzArd	cemerick: what are the options? I thought it will dispatch on the type of the first arg? Maybe with Multiprotocols this would change.
08:24	cemerick	the options for what?
08:25	AWizzArd	for dispatch precedence?
08:25	cemerick	I'm definitely not the person to look at for that. Multimethods are pretty good in that area, though somewhat verbose.
08:26	cemerick	The prefer mechanism can likely be grafted onto protocols, but I get the impression that there's an appetite for a better solution.
08:26	AWizzArd	They can dispatch on more than one arg, whereas Protocols support exactly one as I understand it.
08:27	AWizzArd	They ==> Multimethods
08:27	cemerick	right, multimethod dispatch is wide-open
08:27	cemerick	they can dispatch on the phase of the moon if you want
08:27	AWizzArd	They are nearly as nice/powerful as Pattern Matching :)
08:27	Licenser_	wooh that would be kind of cool
08:27	Licenser_	you could implement a wear wolf with that
08:28	Licenser_	or a wear app
08:28	cemerick	(defmulti craziness (fn [& args] (if (= :full (phase-of-moon)) :do-this :do-that)))
08:28	cemerick	^^ not meant as a joke, you could do it
08:30	Licenser_	cemerick: I figure
09:07	AWizzArd	Can records now get type hinted? (defrecord Foo [x]) ... (defn bar [#^Foo f] ...)
09:26	cemerick	AWizzArd: I would think so.
09:30	licoresse	What is defrecord for?
09:31	licoresse	,(doc defrecord)
09:31	clojurebot	excusez-moi
09:32	@chouser	licoresse: It's a cross between defstruct and deftype
09:36	licoresse	ok
09:46	AWizzArd	Btw, could Contrib need for 1.2 a general revision from Multimethods to Protocols?
09:46	AWizzArd	(and Core maybe too)
09:47	LauJensen	I'd say absolutely - There's already a lot of code which looks really old
09:48	@chouser	AWizzArd: for what, print-method and print-dup I guess?
09:48	AWizzArd	chouser: exactly those I had in mind.
09:49	AWizzArd	Oh, one thing I would love to see included for this guideline on how to write code for Contrib: “Have (set! warn-on-reflection true) in every file.”
09:50	Chousuke	Hm, I wonder if making print-method a protocol would solve the problem of re-evaluating core.clj during runtime? :/
09:50	Chousuke	if you try to do it currently it blows up because print-method gets redefined and loses all the defined methods
09:50	@chouser	AWizzArd: that actually came up already, in the "coding standards" thread, and got beat back. Thankfully.
09:51	Chousuke	it could be in a comment though, just to remind people ;P
09:51	AWizzArd	chouser: is there a list pro/con for that?
09:52	Raynes	Has sexpbot been good whilst I slept? :>
09:52	@chouser	AWizzArd: you really want every single var and local typehinted?
09:54	AWizzArd	I am personally trying to type-hint as much as possible
09:54	Chousuke	actually changing the value of warn-on-reflection in library code would be rude
09:55	AWizzArd	Well, it could be set to true only before compilation then, to make the author(s) aware of reflection warnings.
09:55	@chouser	I try to type-hint as
09:55	Chousuke	that might be useful
09:55	AWizzArd	Probably maven can do that automatically ;-)
09:56	@chouser	I try to type-hint as little as possible
09:57	AWizzArd	type-hinting does not reduce productivity, can (potentially) be switched invisible with your editor, can be used by automatic documentation tools and may become useful in the future, for optional typing in Clojure.
09:57	Chousuke	well, getting rid of reflection in library code is a good thing
09:57	Chousuke	even if it is in a function that is not a bottleneck
09:58	@chouser	it is ugly, hosty, and can pin things to specific type unnecessarily
09:58	Chousuke	"hosty" :P
09:59	AWizzArd	ugly: editor-switch to invisible, hosty: needs to be tuned for the specific plattform, because it should help right there. Pinning things unnecessarily can always happen if people don't know what they are doing.
10:00	AWizzArd	On the other hand it is providing the host with more information. You are communicating to the compiler what your spec is and what you want.
10:00	cemerick	is it hard to turn on reflection warnings when one cares to see them?
10:01	LauJensen	cemerick: You mean those cute 38 (!!!) lines from your video ?
10:02	cemerick	LauJensen: I said I wasn't going to bring it up. ;-)
10:02	cemerick	oh, can other people see those /me msgs? :-D
10:03	AWizzArd	chouser: if contrib uses libs of the underlying host to replace low-level stuff with functional beauty, then the .clj file can't get more hosty than that. Such code would not run under .NET anyway.
10:03	LauJensen	Oh thats right... I just pains me when people say "I'm cant ever learn Clojure, there's just too much XML" and I'm like "what? You're thinking of Chas Emerick, he's into Maven, thats not Clojure".. "Oh okay, but I just hate the fact that I have to install this huge bloated 350 MB Netbeans IDE to use it", and Im like "what?? Dont be scared, just use Emacs" :)
10:03	AWizzArd	When people use host-specific methods, then why shouldn't do hosty communication?
10:04	LauJensen	~google define: hosty
10:04	clojurebot	First, out of results is:
10:04	zmila	just install 299MB Eclipse! :)
10:05	AWizzArd	technomancy: how difficult would it be to have a visible/invisible switch for type hints in clojure-mode? ^^
10:10	Raynes	"I'm installing Eclipse because Emacs is bloated." - Some guy, somewhere on the internet.
10:11	Raynes	LauJensen: The google Ajax API doesn't support define: or math.
10:16	rsynnott	Hmm, I've a system with a large number of interlinked objects in-memory. I'd like to be able to take periodic snapshots of this state and be able to reload from this in case of the application crashing. What approach would people use for tih?
10:20	@chouser	rsynnott: make sure they're all in refs, then in a transaction deref them all and pass them outside the transaction where you can write them to disk
10:21	AWizzArd	rsynnott: or wait 2-3 weeks until I release my Clojure DB :-)
10:23	@chouser	LauJensen: now you're getting it.
10:23	LauJensen	chouser: I somehow knew that would catch your attention :)
10:25	AWizzArd	Anyone here using Cells?
10:25	LauJensen	AWizzArd: And if so, would they please write a little tutorial
10:25	Raynes	+1
10:26	Raynes	Considering I have no clue what 'cells' are in this context.
10:26	Raynes	;)
10:26	Raynes	YamNad: ohai
10:26	YamNad	Hi.
10:26	AWizzArd	I have a little problem now that I am using the new version http://gist.github.com/306174 - so far I placed in my .clj file after the (ns ..) declarations a (load-file (str (File. (.getParentFile (File. #^String file)) "cells.clj")))
10:27	AWizzArd	But this outputs now ‘java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: user.Editable (cells.clj:20)’
10:27	AWizzArd	If I start a fresh repl and load the file manually I don’t get this warning. And after doing so I can also compile my code without warnings.
10:28	AWizzArd	Just when I start a repl and try to compile my code the first time. A direct second recompile works fine then.
10:31	licoresse	Does it matter what order the namespaces appear in :require?
10:32	Chousuke	it shouldn't
10:32	cemerick	it does if the namespaces are doing stateful, interdependent things.
10:32	Chousuke	ie. if they're broken ;
10:32	Chousuke	P
10:32	licoresse	right...
10:32	Chousuke	like my smiley there
10:38	rsynnott	chouser: ah, yes, that's sort of obvious :) Thanks
10:38	rsynnott	AWizzArd: what is the nature of your clojure DB? :)
10:38	@chouser	I'm all about the obvious answers.
10:39	slyphon	technomancy: hey, if i'm using a particular jar for lein-swank "lein-swank-1.2.0-20100308.145053-2.jar" and i want to lock my project to that particular version, is there a way to do that?
10:40	AWizzArd	one sec, about my load-file problem here: http://pastie.org/923220
10:40	AWizzArd	If somebody could please have a look at this and point out a way how to load the cells.clj without triggering this warning.
10:41	AWizzArd	If you already have a fresh build of master, including defrecord then it is basically just putting my foo.clj into some dir, as well as cells.clj and try to compile it.
10:42	LauJensen	AWizzArd: You should check out gist.el
11:00	Raynes	Aw. You can't merge into defrecords. :(
11:01	AWizzArd	What would you like to do?
11:01	Raynes	(merge (Stfu. 3 3) {}), essentially.
11:03	stuartsierra	Raynes: 'into' might work
11:03	Raynes	stuartsierra: Ooh, good idea.
11:03	Raynes	stuartsierra: That did it. :D
11:04	Raynes	I'm trying to avoid changing as much code in sexpbot as possible, while converting it to my own IRC library, which uses a defrecord.
11:12	whidden	Is there a practical limit on the number of functions 'comp will work with?
11:12	AWizzArd	no
11:13	stuartsierra	in a single invocation, yes
11:13	stuartsierra	probably the JVM method size limit
11:13	stuartsierra	unless it's recursive
11:13	stuartsierra	so no
11:14	stuartsierra	But eventually your stack traces will look like fn__1234$fn__2345$fn__3456$...
11:15	whidden	yes, but that's ok for me at the momemt.
11:16	whidden	because i hardly never make errors.
11:16	stuartsierra	heh
11:17	Chousuke	hmm
11:17	Chousuke	,(apply comp (repeat 10000 +))
11:17	clojurebot	#<core$comp__4952$fn__4971 clojure.core$comp__4952$fn__4971@e4cde8>
11:17	stuartsierra	((apply comp (repeat 10000 +)) 1)
11:18	stuartsierra	,((apply comp (repeat 10000 +)) 1)
11:18	clojurebot	1
11:18	stuartsierra	wow
11:18	Chousuke	comp doesn't actually create a new function
11:18	stuartsierra	,((apply comp (repeat 10000 inc)) 1)
11:18	Chousuke	a new class, that is
11:18	Chousuke	stuartsierra: extra space
11:18	Chousuke	,((apply comp (repeat 10000 inc)) 1)
11:18	clojurebot	10001
11:19	stuartsierra	ah
11:19	whidden	,(time ((apply comp (repeat 10000 inc)) 1))
11:19	clojurebot	10001
11:19	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 27.01 msecs"
11:19	stuartsierra	So comp with 10000 args doesn't create 10000 fns.
11:19	stuartsierra	It just creates 1 fn that calls the 10000 fns in order?
11:20	Chousuke	yes. comp only creates a closure of an existing function that composes its parameter functions
11:20	stuartsierra	ok
11:20	stuartsierra	I guess you'd overflow the stack otherwise.
11:20	Chousuke	in general, only a (fn ...) form in code actually creates a new class
11:21	stuartsierra	right
11:21	Chousuke	any function returning functions won't generate classes, but instances of a single class
11:22	stuartsierra	Right, only one class per literal (fn...). I always forget that.
11:25	AWizzArd	hmm, did Cells change recently?
11:25	AWizzArd	Such that a LockCell does not have a lock anymore? ;)
11:31	AWizzArd	yup, a little bug
11:32	The-Kenny	test
11:32	AWizzArd	Hi The.
11:33	The-Kenny	huh, sorry. Erc said my connection was closed.
11:33	The-Kenny	Hi, AWizzArd :)
11:41	LauJensen	The-Kenny: Odd - I had a disconnect with ERC about an hour ago which stalled Emacs
12:14	sergey_miryanov	,{:keys [x] {:x 1}}
12:14	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 3
12:15	sergey_miryanov	hi all
12:15	sergey_miryanov	somebody can explain what wrongs with {:keys [x] {:x 1}}?
12:17	carkh	hum you're mixing stuff
12:17	carkh	(let [{:keys [a]} {:a 1 :b 2}] a)
12:17	carkh	,(let [{:keys [a]} {:a 1 :b 2}] a)
12:17	clojurebot	1
12:18	carkh	{:keys [a]} <- this is a destructuring pattern
12:18	carkh	{:a 1 :b 2} <- this is literal map syntax
12:19	carkh	destructuring patterns go in binding forms like a let or maybe a doseq
12:19	carkh	or the parameter list of a function
12:20	sergey_miryanov	o! thanks! you get me a point - I just typo {:keys [x] {:x 1}} -> should be -> {:keys [x]} {:x 1}
12:20	carkh	ah =)
12:20	sergey_miryanov	i should go sleep -_-
12:21	sergey_miryanov	thanks in any case! :)
12:21	carkh	=)
12:30	AWizzArd	rhickey offline to code without interruptions? ^^
12:32	mtm	I get the strangest feeling that 1.2 is imminent (but maybe that's just the 4 shots of espresso I drank this morning talking...)
12:42	AWizzArd	Uh, 1981, a 1gb hd from ibm: http://img147.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-5704/loc54/66568_1gb_hard_disk_ibm_1981_122_54lo.jpg
12:46	AWizzArd	Ah, there he is :)
12:46	AWizzArd	wb rhickey
12:47	rhickey	hey
12:47	rhickey	everyone rockin' with defrecord?
12:48	AWizzArd	absolutely
12:48	AWizzArd	Today i rearranged my code to use it everywhere.
12:48	AWizzArd	But btw, I don’t know if it is related, I may have discovered a little bug in Cells.
12:49	AWizzArd	If you (load-file "/path/cells.clj" and then do this in the repl, what do you get? (:lock (LockCell. (java.util.concurrent.locks.ReentrantLock.) 1 2))
12:52	AWizzArd	For me this results in nil. May have to do with deftype and the use of :lock as an accessor? shrugs
12:52	AWizzArd	When I use cell-sentry instead of :lock as accessor, then I get the lock. There are seven places where :lock is used in cells.clj. After I changed them to (cell-sentry cell) my code was working again.
12:52	LauJensen	Can somebody link some help explanation+example of defrecord please?
12:52	AWizzArd	LauJensen: very similar to defstruct
12:53	LauJensen	How far can you stretch 'very' ?
12:53	AWizzArd	just more efficient
13:10	slyphon	the icicles completion guy is scary
13:12	timcharper	slyphon: Drew?
13:14	slyphon	yeah
13:14	slyphon	dude has thought way too much about completion
13:14	timcharper	slyphon: hah
13:15	slyphon	the sheer volume of documentation on emacswiki is humbling
13:15	carkh	is icicles bette rthan ido-mode ?
13:15	slyphon	ehhh
13:15	slyphon	i'm still debating that
13:15	slyphon	i think ido-mode for buffers is probably better
13:16	AWizzArd	rhickey: can you confirm that? (:lock (locked-cell 100)) ==> nil
13:16	timcharper	slyphon: when the way to install icicles was downloading code off of pages from a wiki, I stopped there.
13:16	slyphon	timcharper: :)
13:16	slyphon	yeah, i remember those days
13:30	hamza	(- (complex -1.0 -1.0) (complex -0.9 -0.9)) throwing java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentStructMap cannot be cast to java.lang.Number is this a bug this used to work?
13:30	_brian2_	noob question> what is idiomatic way of defining a function that has variable states for a map like this (map f(state1) ... ?
13:31	jonasen	Is this a bug in defrecord or am I doing something wrong? http://paste.lisp.org/display/97880
13:31	carkh	_brian2_: can you expand a little bit on your qustion ?
13:31	dakrone	_brian2_: what do you mean by a function having variable states for a map?
13:34	_brian2_	well a simple example f(state1 ) (+ 1 %) , f (state1 (+ 2 %)
13:34	_brian2_	sorry state2
13:34	_brian2_	f(state2 (+ 2 %))
13:36	_brian2_	isn't that an fp trait ?
13:36	carkh	you mean something like this ? (map #(%1 some-value) [f1 f2 f3])
13:36	dakrone	still not getting what you're trying to do
13:37	_brian2_	well, its a function whose behaviour is conditioned by state
13:38	sh10151	what you have there is not conditioned by state
13:38	sh10151	it's conditioned by a variable
13:38	_brian2_	yes
13:39	_brian2_	but im trying to segregate the variables
13:39	_brian2_	to make the code easier to read
13:39	sh10151	(map (fn [x] ((make-function state1) x)) xs)
13:40	_brian2_	ok
13:40	weissj	_brian2_: i'm not sure how what you want is any different than a fn that takes an argument
13:40	sh10151	or (let [f (make-function state1)] (map f xs))
13:40	weissj	oh i see
13:41	sh10151	(doseq [f (map #(make-function %) [state1 state2 state3])] (map f xs))
13:41	_brian2_	ok
13:41	carkh	,(let [adder (fn [x] #(+ x %))] (map (adder 2) [1 2 3])) ;the cannonical example
13:41	clojurebot	(3 4 5)
13:41	_brian2_	yea
13:42	Chousuke	sh10151: note: #(make-function %) is equivalent to make-function
13:42	Chousuke	unless of course make-function is a macro
13:43	sh10151	Chousuke: hehe, thanks :)
13:43	sh10151	Chousuke: i almost wrote the same out for (map f xs)
13:43	_brian2_	thnks
13:45	Chousuke	small things can improve code readability quite a bit
13:46	Chousuke	I had to learn out of the habit of typing #(foo %) all the time too :P
13:46	Chousuke	I think I use partial and comp more as a result, but #() has its place.
13:47	Chousuke	one just needs to be careful not to overuse it and make the code look like perl
13:48	carkh	ok just for Chousuke :
13:48	carkh	,(map (partial + 2) [1 2 3])
13:48	clojurebot	(3 4 5)
13:48	Chousuke	heh
13:49	carkh	i think it's harder to understand for a new user
13:49	Chousuke	I think (partial + 2) is easy enough
13:49	Chousuke	any new user will just read partial's docstring and get it right away
13:49	weissj	i had a lot of trouble wrapping my head around partial at first
13:50	carkh	you'll find yourself having to explain it in terms of lambdas
13:50	weissj	Chousuke: i read the docstring and said "what??" read it again.. and again
13:50	weissj	i get it now, but it's not an easy thing for a noob
13:50	Chousuke	I've seen much worse point-free expressions in Clojure. Those are the mind-benders
13:51	Chousuke	I think one contained at least 4 partials and 3 comps
13:51	carkh	you can go quite far with those update-in things too
13:51	carkh	always a pleasure =)
13:52	Chousuke	(doc partial)
13:52	clojurebot	"([f arg1] [f arg1 arg2] [f arg1 arg2 arg3] [f arg1 arg2 arg3 & more]); Takes a function f and fewer than the normal arguments to f, and returns a fn that takes a variable number of additional args. When called, the returned function calls f with args + additional args."
13:53	Chousuke	hmm, I suppose that isn't so clear if you're not yet used to thinking about functions as values
13:55	Chousuke	heh
13:55	Chousuke	I guess those require a basic understanding of what a form is.
13:56	Chousuke	so that the docstring makes any sense... "if form blah isn't a list, it is wrapped in a list" makes no sense in most programming languages :)
14:00	nipra_	Chousuke, That was the exact part of the doc that took time for me to grasp. Anyway.. I find both of them very useful. :-)
14:05	@chouser	Why is javax.xml.parsers.SAXParserFactory producing a SAXParser that generates events for non-existent HTML and HEAD tags?
14:09	@chouser	,(-> (javax.xml.parsers.SAXParserFactory/newInstance) .newSAXParser (.parse (java.io.ByteArrayInputStream. (.getBytes "<foo>bar</foo>")) (proxy [org.xml.sax.helpers.DefaultHandler] [] (startElement [_ _ n _] (prn n)))))
14:09	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var null/null is unbound.
14:09	@chouser	huh
14:10	fogus	,64r1
14:10	clojurebot	Radix out of range
14:10	fogus	Did that ever work?
14:12	jonasen	I asked this earlier but didn't get an answer then, maybe someone can help me now..
14:12	@chouser	hm. I don't think so -- always case-insensitive? so tops out at 32
14:12	@chouser	36
14:13	jonasen	Is this a bug in defrecord or am I doing something wrong? http://paste.lisp.org/display/97880
14:13	@chouser	jonasen: defrecord will behave like a map, so 'count' is already implemented to give the number of key/value pairs it's holding.
14:14	@chouser	jonasen: if you want to define a type that has its own logic for what 'count' means, that's exactly when you want to use deftype instead of defrecord
14:14	jonasen	@chouser: ok, thanks
14:17	timcharper	So, I have this monkey patch that makes the closure test library use clj-stacktrace for errors.
14:17	timcharper	http://pastie.org/923567
14:17	timcharper	However, when I try to load files that reference this under Swank-Clojure, I get an error message:
14:18	_brian2_	sorry, this is my last question, which is my real question is how to use a multimethod in a map (ie this is a syntax question), ie is this ok? (defmethod count-cat [:toys] [category] [var] ( do .. (find all instances of toys var hashes and do something)))
14:18	timcharper	http://pastie.org/923569
14:18	timcharper	clojure.test$report__59 cannot be cast to clojure.lang.MultiFn
14:19	technomancy	timcharper: clojure-test-mode rebinds report IIRC. if you want to use your hack with swank-clojure you might have to disable or hack clojure-test-mode
14:19	timcharper	Is there an easy way to tell instead of closure if the application is running under Swank-Clojure?
14:20	timcharper	technomancy: as in emacs clojure-test-mode ?
14:20	timcharper	emacs is not failing here
14:21	timcharper	the Clojure process fails because of some environmental difference induced by swank-server (it seems)
14:21	technomancy	c-t-m has to hack clojure.test in order to get pass/fail stats
14:21	technomancy	it's not because of swank-clojure
14:21	AWizzArd	~seen jcowan
14:21	clojurebot	jcowan was last seen parting #clojure, 5125 minutes ago
14:21	timcharper	technomancy: oh... okay, so it actually hacks the running Clojure instance?
14:22	timcharper	technomancy: I think I would just prefer to conditionally disable my active running from within clojure-test-mode (if that's the case)
14:22	timcharper	^my active^my patch from
14:23	fogus	@chouser: Thanks!
14:24	cemerick	chouser: I wonder if that condition could be detected and warned about with a better message.
14:24	cemerick	That'll become a FAQ pretty quick otherwise, I'll bet.
14:32	timcharper	technomancy: is there some way I can check to see if clojure-test-mode extensions have been loaded from within Clojure?
14:39	@chouser	can anyone answer my xml question?
14:42	vegai	fogus: oh, you noticed my nitpicks #2 :P
14:43	vegai	fogus: are these typo/style suggestions helpful to you?
14:44	_brian2_	noob question> how do I correctly call a multimethod in a map : http://clojure.pastebin.com/8KHgdMMY
14:45	technomancy	timcharper: I don't know of a way other than wrapping your defmethod in try/catch; sorry
14:46	technomancy	c-t-m is a little haphazard; it could definitely be better-behaved
14:46	technomancy	oh, you could test for the presence of the clojure.test/old-report var; that would d oit.
14:50	timcharper	technomancy: that'd work (I don't know I didn't think about that)
14:50	timcharper	(wrapping it)
14:52	AWizzArd	technomancy: how difficult would it be to have a visible/invisible switch for type hints in clojure-mode? ^^
14:54	technomancy	AWizzArd: I don't think it'd be too hard. I'm not too familiar with the necessary APIs, but I know they exist.
14:54	technomancy	cool idea
14:55	LauJensen	technomancy: Is there some kind of folding in cm now ?
14:56	technomancy	nothing yet
14:56	LauJensen	Must be something from CL that we can loot :)
15:02	_brian2_	can someone tell me if you can call a multimethod in a map? ie, this doesn't work http://clojure.pastebin.com/8KHgdMMY
15:03	timcharper	technomancy: the try/catch trick worked, all are happy now. Thank you!
15:04	technomancy	^5
15:04	technomancy	would love to see that in action
15:04	dnolen	_brian2_: you put a multimethod into a map?
15:05	_brian2_	yes, is that possible ?
15:05	_brian2_	or plain wrong
15:11	arohner	_brian2_: you can call multimethods from a map, though your syntax is wrong
15:11	arohner	I don't know how to fix it because I don't know what you want to happen
15:11	arohner	(map #(cc {:category :toys} %) [ 1 2]) is closest to working
15:11	arohner	though that (inc v) won't work
15:12	arohner	nm, what I wrote should work
15:12	_brian2_	ok, thnks I need to take a look
15:13	Chousuke	it looks like you're trying to call functions using foo(bar) syntax :/
15:14	_brian2_	arohner> "(inc v) won't work", what will?
15:14	Bendlas	hi folks
15:14	Bendlas	has there been anything done on clojurescript lately?
15:15	LauJensen	Bendlas: Not that I know of, but recently a similar lib named Scripjure was put on Github I believe
15:16	arohner	_brian2_: actually, (map #(cc {:category :toys} % ) [1 2])
15:16	arohner	produc
15:16	arohner	produces (2 3)
15:16	arohner	_brian2_: is that what you want?
15:16	_brian2_	oh, ok
15:16	arohner	Bendlas: there's http://github.com/arohner/scriptjure
15:16	Bendlas	LauJensen, thanks, that looks interesting
15:16	arohner	http://arohner.blogspot.com/
15:16	sexpbot	"/dev/rohner"
15:16	arohner	I mean
15:16	arohner	http://arohner.blogspot.com/2010/04/writing-jquery-code-with-scriptjure.html
15:16	sexpbot	"/dev/rohner: Writing JQuery code with Scriptjure"
15:18	Bendlas	I wrote something very similar last night, but wanted to investigate before putting more work in
15:19	Bendlas	arohner, that seems very much like what i was looking for
15:20	arohner	Bendlas: great
15:26	dnolen	_brian2_: sorry, yeah, keep fns out of maps
16:05	timcharper	the error screens in slime are driving me nuts. Is there any way to make it so errors just appear in the mini buffer instead of switching my focus to a new split?
16:06	timcharper	(when I evaluate Clojure code via c-c c-r, or use repl in swank-clojure)
16:14	licoresse	timcharper: yeah, that IS annoying
16:14	licoresse	growl support would be nice, if you are on a mac
16:15	licoresse	I guess there is growl for win as well
16:15	licoresse	http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/growl.el
16:15	timcharper	licoresse: yeah, anything that doesn't take your focus away so when you resume typing you're like "what the heck?"
16:16	licoresse	for the small messages, I would like it to pop up afloat and not stealing focus
16:21	licoresse	this one seem more up-to-date: http://github.com/elim/emacs-growl/blob/master/growl.el
16:22	timcharper	The trick is tracking down where the function sldb-get-buffer is called
16:37	licoresse	extract the notes from slime-compilation-finished in slime.el
16:37	licoresse	and growl the extraction
16:43	timcharper	licoresse: I can't tell where the debug window is being allocated and focused though, can you?
16:44	licoresse	yes
16:44	licoresse	brb
16:44	timcharper	allocated, sldb-get-buffer
16:44	timcharper	But where is it focused?
16:45	licoresse	the fouus thing is a pref
16:45	licoresse	at my system, the frame is just divided
16:45	timcharper	Which pref? (Here too)
16:45	licoresse	but focus does not shift, M-x apropos compiler notes
16:46	timcharper	focus shifts here
16:46	timcharper	:S
16:46	timcharper	on slime 20091016
17:02	a_strange_guy	hi there
17:02	a_strange_guy	can somebody help me with my swank-clojure problems?
17:03	a_strange_guy	after compiling the latest clojure from git
17:04	a_strange_guy	i get a "java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.main" when starting up slime
17:05	a_strange_guy	using the jar normally with java -jar works
17:05	hiredman	that means your clojure.jar is not on the classpath of the jvm that slime is trying to start
17:06	a_strange_guy	that is strange
17:06	a_strange_guy	is there any way to find out the classpath which swank-clojure passes to the jvm?
17:06	a_strange_guy	some variable in emacs?
17:08	technomancy	a_strange_guy: have you tried the instructions in the swank-clojure readme? there are several ways to launch a session.
17:08	Bendlas	swank-clojure-classpath
17:12	a_strange_guy	ah found the reason
17:12	a_strange_guy	swank-clojure-jar-home got unset somehow
17:12	bozhidar	anybode knows the criteria on which some core functions are marked as built-ins in clojure-mode, where other aren't?
17:12	a_strange_guy	thx anyway
17:12	bozhidar	http://paste.lisp.org/display/97895
17:13	bozhidar	I cannot understand why even? is there, but odd? isn't
17:13	a_strange_guy	bozhidar: there is a big list of clojure functions in clojure-mode.el
17:13	bozhidar	a_strange_guy: I know how big the list is - I'm looking at it :-)
17:13	bozhidar	but it should be a lot bigger IMO
17:14	bozhidar	otherwise the font locking seems non uniform
17:14	a_strange_guy	there was a post by Lau Jensen in his blog on how to scrape the api page for functions to add
17:17	unlink	hi
17:17	unlink	Is anyone using Clojure to trade with Interactive Brokers?
17:19	bozhidar	a_strange_guy: I found the post and while it presents a workaround it doesn't offer an explanation
17:19	bozhidar	about what insight made the developers include only those particular functions
17:20	bozhidar	I can easily alter the mode myself, but I'm curious as to the current state of affairs and what led to it...
17:20	a_strange_guy	probaply it's a hassle to keep the list up to date
17:20	a_strange_guy	and ccorrect with the latest versions of clojure
17:21	a_strange_guy	as long it doesn't interface with slime, it will miss some functions
17:24	AWizzArd	rhickey: did you get my messages about Cells from 5 hours ago?
17:24	bozhidar	a_strange_guy: certainly
17:25	bozhidar	I hope that one day will get the same level of slime integration for Clojure that exists today for CL
17:25	bozhidar	clojure + slime have come a long way, but I still envy the CL guys for some stuff
17:26	The-Kenny	Yeah, me too. Debugging and stuff like list-callees is very nice
17:27	scottj	unlink: nope, but I've thought about it and talked to another person that was thinking about it. If you write a wrapper and open source it I'm sure it would be of interest to others
17:28	technomancy	bozhidar: I can think of one great way to make that happen... =)
17:29	bozhidar	technomancy: me coding less Java and more Emacs Lisp I presume ;-)
17:29	a_strange_guy	well the problem is that clojure-mode and swank-clojure are distinct
17:32	unlink	scottj: Yeah I'm pretty sure I am going to.
17:34	bozhidar	a_strange_guy: even with common lisp - swank and lisp-mode are separate
17:34	bozhidar	and I find this reasonable
17:34	bozhidar	you have access to slime-complete-symbol from lisp/clojure buffers
17:35	bozhidar	it would have been nicer is something like that is used to generate dynamically the list of symbols to font lock
17:36	bozhidar	I might try to conjure something up after I'm done with my current projects...
17:36	mabes	Could someone explain what "clojure.lang.RT" does here? (let [entry (. clojure.lang.RT (find map (first keys)))]
17:37	mabes	^ taken from (source select-keys)
17:37	Raynes	http://spikeypillow.com/2010/04/what-programming-languages-are-people-learning/ "There might be a lot of hype about languages like Clojure, Scala and Smalltalk but the numbers show there just are not that many people picking them up."
17:37	sexpbot	"Hello World: Which programming languages are people learning? - Spikey Pillow"
17:37	lancepantz	that's absurd
17:37	Raynes	I'm sure that's why over 400 people signed up for the Clojure course at rubylearning.
17:37	lancepantz	he's comparing clojure to smalltalk?
17:38	Raynes	lancepantz: He has a graph.
17:38	bozhidar	Raynes: don't you find it amusing that rubylearning are doing a clojure course? :-)
17:39	Raynes	Apparently, according to his graph, more people are picking up Forth and Fortran than Clojure.
17:39	Raynes	bozhidar: Indeed. It's beautiful.
17:40	bozhidar	there is this massive switch to clojure from ruby that I've noticed
17:40	bozhidar	I guess that Rails really played them a bad joke...
17:40	Raynes	Parens are all the rave these days.
17:40	hiredman	the seattle clojure group has a lot of pythonistas
17:40	clojurebot	clojure is not groovy
17:40	Raynes	The truth.
17:40	Raynes	He speaks it.
17:40	bozhidar	Raynes: parens have been the rave for the last 50 years :)
17:41	lancepantz	bozhidar: i've notices the same re: ruby->clojure
17:41	lancepantz	it's the path i'm coming down
17:41	bozhidar	lancepantz: me too
17:41	lancepantz	we've convinced my boss to migrate all of our backend to clojure
17:41	bozhidar	but I have to admit that before ruby I was fond of Common Lisp
17:41	mabes	lancepantz, bozhidar: same, but I think that says more about the ruby community than anything else.. (early adopters)
17:41	Raynes	I believe technomancy is/was a Ruby guy as well.
17:41	Chousuke	mabes: clojure.lang.RT is a class that contains many static methods used by clojure.core
17:42	bozhidar	I like the language, but there weren't that good deployment options for CL apps
17:42	bozhidar	clojure changed that...
17:42	lancepantz	we basically realized there was nothing we could do to make our ruby backend faster... in ruby
17:42	mabes	Chousuke: Why is it being used in that context though? It seems like the select-keys would work fine with just (find map (first keys)).
17:42	lancepantz	some of our early benchmarks have clojure 100x faster
17:43	Chousuke	mabes: find is not a clojure function
17:43	lancepantz	there's also some db changes, but still
17:43	bozhidar	lancepantz: I also disliked a little the overly frivolous syntax - it seemed to me it added some unneeded complexity
17:43	mabes	,(doc find)
17:43	clojurebot	"([map key]); Returns the map entry for key, or nil if key not present."
17:43	Chousuke	oh, it is? heh
17:44	Chousuke	maybe it's newer than select-keys :/
17:44	mabes	Chousuke: ok, I suspected it could be cruft, thanks
17:44	lancepantz	bozhidar: well and as you try to implement more complex features that all work together you end up with a huge abstracted mess
17:45	Chousuke	does anyone actually use that find function?
17:45	AWizzArd	,(find {:a 1, :b 1} 1)
17:45	clojurebot	nil
17:45	bozhidar	lancepantz: indeed
17:45	Raynes	(doc find)
17:45	clojurebot	"([map key]); Returns the map entry for key, or nil if key not present."
17:45	Chousuke	get and map-as-fn make it kind of irrelevant
17:45	AWizzArd	,(find {:a 1, :b 1} :b)
17:45	clojurebot	[:b 1]
17:45	mabes	,(source find)
17:45	clojurebot	Source not found
17:45	Raynes	~def find
17:45	mabes	Well, this is the source: map key] (. clojure.lang.RT (find map key)))
17:45	Chousuke	ah, right, it returns the entry.
17:46	AWizzArd	Raynes is our bot operator :-)
17:46	Raynes	:p
17:46	mabes	Too bad tinyurl broke
17:48	Raynes	mabes: That's why sexpbot uses bit.ly. :>
17:49	Raynes	Sadly, it doesn't have the definition lookup stuff.
17:49	Raynes	:\
17:49	Raynes	But! It has walton.
17:49	Raynes	$walton doseq
17:49	sexpbot	Raynes: http://getclojure.org:8080/examples/doseq
17:49	mabes	ah, very nice
17:50	Raynes	defn: <3
17:53	mabes	Raynes: where does sexpbot's code live?
17:53	remleduff	Is the "id" attribute not supposed to be unique? I'm looking at the walton page source and it has <div id="post"> for every post. Wish they'd get out from port 8080 so I could use the site at work :\
17:53	mabes	Raynes-: : where does sexpbot's code live?
17:55	Raynes	mabes: Sorry about that.
17:55	Raynes	Wouldn't let me send.
17:55	Raynes	mabes: It's http://github.com/Raynes/sexpbot
17:57	mabes	nice, thanks
18:02	defn	hehe Raynes :)
18:07	Bendlas	/j #clojure-casual
18:59	Bendlas	can you tell me the reason why `java -cp classes/ clojure.main` won't work, when `java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main` does?
19:00	Bendlas	fails with java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError caused by a NullPointerException
19:09	cemerick	is there anyone maintaining a clojure 1.2-compatible compojure 0.3.2 branch?
19:45	shales	maven just downloaded a new clojure-contrib 1.2.0-SNAPSHOT and I'm getting this error Could not locate clojure/contrib/duck_streams__init.class or clojure/contrib/duck_streams.clj on classpath:
19:46	shales	sure enough, I don't see anything in the clojure-contrib.jar for duck_streams. Anyone seeing this error too?
19:47	remleduff	Sounds like you need to use clojure.contrib.io instead (it moved)
19:47	remleduff	But you must have been on a really old 1.2.0 snapshot
19:47	shales	I'm not using duck_streams anywhere that I know of though
19:48	Raynes	shales: A library you depend on might be trying to use it. Check the stacktrace and see if it talks about a file in a jar you're depending on.
19:48	Raynes	shales: I ended up having to update 3 different projects to use Clojure 1.2 yesterday to update sexpbot to Clojure 1.2.
19:49	shales	oh, good point. I'll check the other libraries
19:51	shales	hmm, I'm using the latest version of the libs that are on clojars, but that might not be good enough
20:33	slyphon	is it possible that the classloader would behave differently on linux and mac os-x when stuff is being loaded through slime
20:33	slyphon	?
20:33	slyphon	https://gist.github.com/a3a4516a79c4ce0fe109
20:34	lancepantz	anyone know how github computes their language popularity lists?
20:36	technomancy	lancepantz: it's by number of repositories that contain at least one file of a given lang
20:37	slyphon	technomancy: hai!
20:37	slyphon	technomancy: what do you know about classloaderS?
20:37	technomancy	less than I should?
20:37	hiredman	there be dragons
20:37	lancepantz	that makes sense
20:38	technomancy	github languages ranked by bytes: sonia
20:38	slyphon	its' weird, i get that traceback above when running on linux but not on mac os-x
20:38	technomancy	rather: http://gist.github.com/118810
20:38	technomancy	weird... IME classloader issues are a lot more common on OS X due to the hacks they have for "native-feeling" swing
20:39	slyphon	there are a bunch of hits on google related to Spring and other containers, but i don't know enough to even start
20:39	slyphon	well, that might be overstating it
20:40	hiredman	you didn't use add-classpath did you?
20:40	technomancy	dependency injection doesn't play nice at all with Clojure in my experience
20:40	slyphon	hiredman: nope
20:40	hiredman	just making sure
20:40	technomancy	but that was with Maven's, not Spring
20:41	hiredman	wow
20:41	slyphon	i even grabbed the standalone jdk distro from sun and same thing happens
20:41	slyphon	(just to make sure it wasn't the package maintaner being cute)
20:42	slyphon	also
20:43	slyphon	when i run lein repl, and run the tests (how that bug gets triggered) it works fine
20:43	slyphon	it's only from slime that it throws that exception
20:43	slyphon	which is interesting
20:44	hiredman	perhaps you need to restart slime?
20:45	slyphon	tried that
20:45	slyphon	couple of times
20:45	slyphon	it's really strange that swank-clojure "causes" the issue
20:45	hiredman	what about slime connecting to lien swank?
20:46	slyphon	that's the thing
20:46	slyphon	that is when the issue happens
20:46	slyphon	lein repl it works fine
20:46	hiredman	and what about swank-clojure-project?
20:47	slyphon	that i dont' have set up because i need to pass properties on the command-line
20:47	slyphon	i guess i could get around that by loading them when i init my stuff
20:49	technomancy	swank-clojure-extra-vm-args may also do it
20:49	slyphon	only thing that's kind of annoying about that is there doesn't seem to be a way of making that per-project
20:50	technomancy	you can use .dir-locals to set it in elisp
20:50	technomancy	if you're on emacs 23+
20:51	slyphon	on linux i'm using 22, font rendering is AFU in ubuntu in 23
20:51	slyphon	spent a few hours chasing this one down: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=517272
20:52	technomancy	weird; never seen that one. is that the emacs-snapshot package?
20:52	slyphon	nope
20:52	slyphon	wlel
20:52	slyphon	both, actually
20:52	slyphon	emacs23 and emacs-snapshot
20:52	slyphon	and i checked out the code and built by hand, but i pulled from a git repo, and i think it was an old cut of the code
20:55	slyphon	hrm
20:55	slyphon	what happened to java-utils in clojure-contrib?
20:56	technomancy	it got split up into a number of other nses
20:56	slyphon	ah
20:56	technomancy	c.c.io, c.c.properties, possibly more
20:56	slyphon	ahh
21:00	slyphon	oh ffs
21:06	slyphon	hiredman technomancy: running it with swank-clojure-project works...
21:07	technomancy	so lein swank runs in a subclassloader in order to keep leiningen's deps separate from your project's
21:08	technomancy	repl hasn't been fixed to do this yet (though that's a bug)
21:08	technomancy	so there must be something about the root classloader that isn't getting propagated to the project classloader
21:08	technomancy	the only other time this has been an issue is with OS X gui classes
21:08	slyphon	and how is swank-clojure-project different?
21:09	slyphon	it's java.lang.reflect.Proxy.getProxyClass()
21:09	slyphon	referenced in a number of other posts
21:09	technomancy	swank-clojure-project calculates the classpath in elisp rather than clojure
21:09	technomancy	so it lets your project use the root classloader
21:09	slyphon	ahh
21:09	technomancy	you can force leiningen to fork a new JVM for your project instead of using a subclassloader
21:09	technomancy	it'll be slow, but it will probably sidestep the problem
21:10	technomancy	you can do it by setting a dummy value for :native-path in project.clj
21:10	slyphon	hm
21:11	slyphon	well, i'm ok with running swank-clojure-project
21:11	slyphon	so
21:11	slyphon	emacs question
21:11	slyphon	do you have to set swank-clojure-extra-vm-args inside the "custom-set-variables" sexp
21:11	slyphon	?
21:11	slyphon	or can you just do setq ?
21:12	technomancy	setq is fine
21:12	slyphon	mm'kay
21:12	technomancy	gotta jet; hope you get it figured out
21:12	slyphon	yeah, thanks for the hlep
21:12	slyphon	:D
21:12	technomancy	you can post to the lein mailing list if you get stuck
21:12	slyphon	kk, tyvm
21:30	defn	how do we use the new version of contrib? im using clojure-contrib 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT
21:30	defn	how do i add the one in which we have .io instead of .duck-streams, etc.
21:30	hiredman	lose the master
21:31	defn	wonderful -- thanks
21:32	Raynes	defn: Did you ever checkout irclj?
21:32	Raynes	check out*
21:32	defn	Raynes: that question i just asked is directly related to me playing with irclj :)
21:32	defn	I needed to get the new SNAPSHOT to use .io etc.
21:33	Raynes	Ah. :p
21:33	slyphon	argh
21:33	Raynes	defn: If you see anything obvious that needs added, leave me a $mail or something. It's definitely lacking right now. At least it's enough for sexpbot for now. :>
21:33	slyphon	anti-aliasing is the worst idea
21:34	defn	in emacs 23? respectfully disagree.
21:34	slyphon	no no
21:34	slyphon	firefox
21:34	defn	oh
21:34	defn	Raynes: I will definitely do that
22:07	slyphon	is the stderr output captured when you do swank-clojure-project?
22:08	slyphon	oh, nvm
22:15	defn	slyphon: you fixing up swank-clojure-project?
22:15	slyphon	well, i got it workin' for me
22:15	defn	slyphon: i believe there is a problem with it picking up the resources directory -- not sure if that's in the scope of things you're messing with
22:15	defn	but that'd be a nice thing to fix
22:16	slyphon	hrm, i just link the stuff i need from resources/ into classes/ which is probably The Wrong Way
22:16	slyphon	i only have 1-2 properties files i use
22:16	defn	nod
22:17	slyphon	i think you should be able to put that in swank-clojure-extra-classpaths
22:19	defn	slyphon: oh right, that makes sense
22:21	slyphon	i mean, it'd be nice if it picked that up automagically, but i dunno how to do that without reading through the .el
22:27	defn	no worries, just thought id ask
22:53	slyphon	hrm
22:59	slyphon	sooo, if i want to tweak one or two methods on c.test/report, what's a good way to do that?
22:59	slyphon	"methods" look like Special Creatures
23:08	slyphon	is it possible to copy a method impl?
23:09	slyphon	or rather a "multi", then tweak your version, like "subclassing"
23:29	technomancy	what kind of things could cause the JVM to exit even after shutdown-agents is run?
23:29	technomancy	maybe some rogue thread kept alive?
23:29	slyphon	to not exit?
23:30	slyphon	usually it's a rogue non-daemon thread
23:30	slyphon	in my experience
23:30	slyphon	technomancy: do you know if it's possible to override a single defmethod ?
23:30	slyphon	like, if you wanted to override clojure.test/report :end-test-var
23:31	technomancy	I think you can just defmethod over the same dispatch value
23:31	technomancy	but I don't know how to preserve the old one
23:31	slyphon	yeah, i'm actually writing a post to the group about that
23:31	slyphon	it doesn't seem possible, really, looking at c.t.junit
23:31	slyphon	and reading the defmulti code
23:31	technomancy	you could probably do it with some Java calls
23:32	technomancy	yeah, not great
23:34	technomancy	you could just write a defmulti whose default method just calls the old one
23:34	slyphon	HMM
23:35	technomancy	nothing wrong with that apart from one extra call
23:35	slyphon	yeah, but i have to bind over clojure.test/report
23:35	slyphon	before running the tests
23:35	technomancy	oh, can't do that in 1.2
23:35	slyphon	can't do what?
23:35	technomancy	oh, never mind
23:36	slyphon	maybe aliasing the original?
23:36	technomancy	direct binding inhibits you from rebinding most functions bound to vars beginning with "clojure"
23:36	technomancy	but clojure.test/report is explicitly excluded
23:36	slyphon	ah
23:38	technomancy	remleduff: hey, are you going to submit that repl patch as an assembla issue?
23:39	remleduff	I don't have a CA in place at the moment, go ahead if you want to :)
23:39	technomancy	ok, cool
23:53	slyphon	technomancy: w00t!
23:54	slyphon	technomancy: http://gist.github.com/369247
23:59	technomancy	heh; what's harpo?
23:59	slyphon	oh, heh, that's my project i'm working on, i name all our major infrastucture projects after Marx Brothers