#clojure – 2010-04-14

2010-04-14

00:15	technomancy	hugod: what about that function specifically?
00:15	technomancy	just see that it makes sense?
00:17	hugod	ok, slime-autodoc works for me in slime head without the patch
00:18	technomancy	so it was just a temporary bug in an older slime head?
00:18	technomancy	the hackiness that's evident when looking at slime code makes me feel a little better about the hackiness of swank-clojure
00:20	technomancy	hugod: gotta take off; will sync up with you later.
00:20	hugod	technomancy: I'm making mistakes - time to sleep - it's hanging for me
00:20	technomancy	a fresh brain often helps =)
00:20	technomancy	bye
00:57	vIkSiT	hello all
00:58	vIkSiT	i was wondering - on a normal emacs-slime-clojure installation - how do you send a buffer where i'm writing code, to the repl for execution?
00:58	vIkSiT	i'm using aquamacs, but C-c C-k shows up as "not bound" for me.
00:58	tomoj	what mode are you in
00:59	tomoj	i.e. what's in parentheses in the modeline near the bottom
01:00	polypus	vIkSiT: try M-x slime-eval-buffer
01:01	vIkSiT	tomoj, ah - i've got a repl running in a split screen mode. the bottom contains [[(REPL)]] and the top has a clj file open which says [[(fundamental)]]
01:01	hiredman	should be clojure-mode
01:01	hiredman	or just clojuire
01:02	tomoj	did you install the clojure emacs stuff before or after opening the clj file?
01:02	vIkSiT	oh got it. clojure mode seems to send CcCk to the REPL.
01:02	vIkSiT	tomoj, ah, what i did was - typed in (println "foo") and then saved it as /tmp/foo.clj
01:03	tomoj	try C-x C-f /tmp/bar.clj
01:03	tomoj	if that buffer opens in fundamental mode, something's wrong with your installation
01:03	vIkSiT	looks like just M-xc lojure-mode will enable the mode, and I can then use Cc Ck
01:03	vIkSiT	tomoj, nope, its working now, I overlooked the clojure-mode!
01:04	tomoj	clj files should automatically turn clojure-mode on, though
01:04	vIkSiT	tomoj, indeed. just looking at me .emacs
01:04	vIkSiT	my*
01:05	vIkSiT	does anyone here use clojure for concurrency/parallel programming btw?
01:06	vIkSiT	(in the sense, they switched to it take advantage of agents, et al)
01:07	hiredman	omg
01:07	hiredman	incanter.latex
01:09	vIkSiT	sounds cool
02:49	zkim	,(conj [1 2] 3)
02:49	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
03:51	LauJensen	Morning crew
04:11	vIkSiT	hmm, I'm running clojure-mode on a file named 2.clj in emacs - but I don't seem to be getting auto indentation anywhere
04:11	vIkSiT	any ideas on what I can check?
04:14	LauJensen	(global-set-key "\r" 'newline-and-indent)
04:17	LauJensen	@ vIkSiT
04:17	vIkSiT	LauJensen, ah this in my .emacs file?
04:17	LauJensen	Yup - Put it in there and eval the expression
04:20	vIkSiT	LauJensen, awesome, thanks!
04:22	LauJensen	np :)
04:22	npoektop	how to compare sets by their content? i have #{{:id 1} {:id 2}} and #{id1 id2}, (= for them should say true.
04:26	LauJensen	npoektop: Why should it be true?
04:27	LauJensen	You could do something like
04:27	LauJensen	,(map = (vals {:id1 1 :id2 2}) #{1 2})
04:27	clojurebot	(true true)
04:27	LauJensen	And that would make a little more sense, but you compare a set of hashmaps to a set of symbols should not be true
04:30	npoektop	LauJensen, i'd like to dereference those symbols so this comparison would give true
04:31	LauJensen	Then you need to convert them. You want to compare a keyword and an integer, in a concatenated form, to a symbol.
04:32	npoektop	LauJensen, ok. How to convert them?
04:34	npoektop	LauJensen, id1 = {:id 1}, id2 = {:id 2}. How to compare #{id1 id2} and #{{:id 1} {:id 2}}?
04:34	LauJensen	Is the actual comparison (= 2 2) or (= 'id2 'id2) ?
04:34	LauJensen	does {:id 1} => id1 or 1
04:36	LauJensen	@ npoektop
04:38	npoektop	LauJensen, i do not understand what you mean(
04:38	LauJensen	I'm just trying to understand your data
04:39	LauJensen	Is this what you're trying to do
04:39	LauJensen	,(= (set (mapcat vals #{{:id 1} {:id 2}})) #{1 2})
04:39	clojurebot	true
04:39	npoektop	,(let [id1 {:id 1}] (= id1 {:id 1}))
04:39	clojurebot	true
04:42	npoektop	LauJensen, ok, another way. I have a function profiles-by-ids wich returns a vector of maps. I want to write a test that would check if '(id1 id2) = '({:id 1} {:id 2}). I thought coercing to set would work.
04:43	LauJensen	Ok, so you have a vector of maps ala {:id 1} {:id 2} and you want some way of testing if an id is represented somewhere in that vector?
04:44	LauJensen	(let [id2 {:id 2}] (contains? #{{:id 1} {:id 2} {:id 3}} id2))
04:44	LauJensen	...true
04:44	LauJensen	:)
04:46	npoektop	LauJensen, ok. But what if there are hundreds of ids? (contains? ... id1) ... (contains? ... idn)?
04:47	LauJensen	Then perhaps you'd want to filter out those ids
04:47	LauJensen	,(filter #{{:id 2}} #{{:id 1} {:id 2} {:id 3}})
04:47	clojurebot	({:id 2})
04:47	LauJensen	The predicate in that case, is just a set containing the relevant keys
04:53	npoektop	LauJensen, what should i do now with that vector?
04:53	npoektop	,(let [id1 {:id 1} id2 {:id 2}] (filter #{id1 id2} #{{:id 1} {:id 2} {:id 3}}))
04:53	clojurebot	({:id 1} {:id 2})
04:53	npoektop	s/vector/list. count it's members?
04:56	LauJensen	Factor it out into a predicate
04:56	LauJensen	(defn contains-ids? [ids coll] (not (empty? (filter ids coll))))
04:56	LauJensen	So if there are no hits, the filter returns empty (true) which we reverse with not.
05:01	npoektop	LauJensen, i don't know why it didn't work ten minutes ago. I tryed smth like this: (= (set (profiles-by-ids [...]) (set (list id1 id2)))
05:01	npoektop	now it works
05:02	LauJensen	Try it with real data on Clojurebot
05:04	npoektop	,(let [id1 {:id 1} id2 {:id 2}] (= (set '({:id 1} {:id 2})) (set (list id1 id2))))
05:04	clojurebot	true
05:07	npoektop	LauJensen, my question was a little tangled, i know) thank you for help
05:09	LauJensen	npoektop: Ah ok. This will fail if the number of arguments differ, I thought you needed to avoid that, ie
05:09	LauJensen	,(let [id1 {:id 1} id2 {:id 2} id3 {:id 3}] (= (set '({:id 1} {:id 2})) (set (list id1 id2 id3))))
05:09	clojurebot	false
05:09	LauJensen	But I'm glad you worked it out
05:15	npoektop	is there a way to make a variable global, but for one file?
05:15	LauJensen	The file concept is tricky, think in namespaces
05:16	npoektop	ok. how to make non-public def?
05:17	LauJensen	,doc defn-
05:17	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/doc
05:17	LauJensen	,(doc defn-)
05:17	clojurebot	"([name & decls]); same as defn, yielding non-public def"
05:18	npoektop	i'd like to def a variable
05:21	hoeck	(def #^{:private true} foo 10)
05:21	hoeck	or (clojure.contrib.def/defvar- foo 100)
05:22	LauJensen	Yea I was just about to say, check out contrib.def
05:37	_invis	guys could you help me to write this Graphics2D g2 = (Graphics2D) img.getGraphics(); on clojure in let ?
05:39	raek	(let [g2 (.getGraphics img)] (do-stuff g2))
05:41	raek	_invis: rhickey does some graphics in the example in the end of this talk: http://clojure.blip.tv/file/812787/
05:42	_invis	thank you
05:43	raek	(the "ants example" is available here: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/files look for ants.clj)
05:52	LauJensen	Also my blog has more than a few examples of graphics sims
06:05	npoektop	hoeck, LauJensen, thank you.
06:06	hoeck	npoektop: np :)
06:21	vegai	do the authors of The Joy of Clojure visit here?
06:21	LauJensen	they practically live here
06:21	vegai	ah :)
06:22	vegai	I was about to ask where to send corrections, but now I see that every single page has a like to a forum...
06:22	vegai	like/link
06:39	LauJensen	For the european (or travel happy) people in here: http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2010/04/clojure-meets-the-european-industry/
06:54	esj	LauJensen: nice choice - good beer.
06:54	LauJensen	esj: You should talk to cgrand, that was his argument as well :)
06:55	esj	i tried to sell him on Cambridge, but no dice.
08:12	Raynes	LauJensen: European training sessions huh? :p
08:13	LauJensen	Thats right - You flying in ?
08:13	Raynes	LauJensen: For 1200€ sessions? I think not. :p
08:13	LauJensen	I'll throw in a free cheese burger :)
08:14	Raynes	I'm sold.
08:14	Raynes	;p
08:15	LauJensen	Perfect
08:15	Raynes	I think the Rubylearning Clojure course guys like me.
08:16	LauJensen	Why wouldnt they ?
08:16	Raynes	Just sayin'. Stuff like this: http://twitter.com/IndianGuru/statuses/12158700306
08:17	Raynes	Sure know how to make a fella' feel warm and fuzzy inside. :p
08:17	LauJensen	AWwwww :)
08:18	AWizzArd	Is there already an idiomatic way to serialize (print + read) deftypes?
08:18	Raynes	That was after I made the comment that I'm a "teacher undercover as a student".
08:20	AWizzArd	Best way is to add a print-dup method for user defined types?
08:36	AWizzArd	chouser: You implemented the printing for deftypes yes?
08:41	Raynes	We need a Clojure window manager. ._.
08:41	Raynes	I want a window manager I can configure in Clojure.
08:51	LeNsTR	=)
08:52	@chouser	Raynes: yes. abrooks is working on it. :-)
08:52	@chouser	AWizzArd: yeah, the current (unreadable) format.
08:55	AWizzArd	chouser: who calls print-deftype in http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core_deftype.clj#L301 ?
08:55	AWizzArd	in core_print.clj i didn’t find the caller
08:57	rhickey	name game again
08:57	AWizzArd	uh oh ^_^
08:58	rhickey	I am trying to support stable names for deftype/defrecord even when used dynamically, using the same technique that definterface does
08:58	rhickey	this means that it will be useful to auto-import the class name, and thus would conflict with the current factory fns
08:58	AWizzArd	rhickey: you wrote about stable nam.. ah, this is what I wanted to ask
08:59	rhickey	in addition, there may be a facility for providing bodies for the factory fn(s), if so these wil end up as static method(s) of the generated class
08:59	AWizzArd	Stable names means: (defrecord Foo [a b c]), (class (Foo 10 20 30)) <--- will keep the same name even after restarting JVM?
09:00	rhickey	thus we need name for static factory method, and possble wrapper fn for same
09:00	rhickey	I like Foo/create
09:01	AWizzArd	yes, better than make-instance
09:01	rhickey	not sure about wrapper fn, could be create-Foo
09:02	AWizzArd	In what situations would the wrapper be used?
09:04	rhickey	AWizzArd: hopefully most - it gives you some encapsulation of the host-iness of it. Also would be a first class fn (e.g. mappable)
09:04	AWizzArd	Foo/create and create-Foo sound good and clear.
09:05	AWizzArd	Instead of create maybe "new" or "make" could be used, but I like create more.
09:05	rhickey	"new" can't be used as static method name - Java keyword
09:05	AWizzArd	ok
09:05	liwp	assuming we want to use the same name in both cases, new is out of the question
09:06	liwp	and Foo.make sounds weird in Java land
09:06	liwp	so I too would vote for create
09:06	AWizzArd	yes
09:07	AWizzArd	Also interesting is this new question from the Wiki: "record equality: basic map rules, or incorporate type?".
09:08	rhickey	AWizzArd: one question at a time :)
09:08	jfields	what's the easiest way to create a seq of lines from a file?
09:08	AWizzArd	io/read-lines returns a lazy seq
09:09	AWizzArd	jfields: This means your jvm memory will not explode even for 10gb files, but it also means that you have to completely consume the file to have it closed again.
09:09	jfields	AWizzArd, thanks.
09:10	rhickey	jfields: or you can use with-open and line-seq for more control
09:10	AWizzArd	make, create, instantiate, create!, produce... "create" seems to be the best option
09:12	AWizzArd	gen / generate
09:13	@chouser	AWizzArd: 5 lines before that, in the deftype macro. (defmethod print-method ~tag ...)
09:14	@chouser	AWizzArd: create seems nice for the static method name, but I'm tending to agree with whoever it was that suggested against generating vars with computed names.
09:14	@chouser	sorry, that wasn't specifically for AWizzArd
09:15	@chouser	(defrecord Foo [a b]) (create Foo 1 2) (create-rec Foo :b 2, :a 1)
09:15	rhickey	chouser: well, we were generating computed names with the factory fn before, with conflict now on class name
09:15	AWizzArd	chouser: okay, thanks for the hint with the 5 lines in the deftype macro.
09:16	rhickey	(record Foo ...) means records are more verbose than new sugar
09:16	rhickey	and don't have single mappable fn
09:16	rhickey	will we get a lot of (comp record Foo) ?
09:16	@chouser	AWizzArd: It's ((var print-deftype) ...) to allow the macro expansion to call a private fn
09:16	@chouser	rhickey: Hm, I suppose. But Foo-create feels like such a hack
09:16	AWizzArd	I think for such an important mechanism like defrecord it is okay to auto gen Foo/create and create-Foo
09:17	rhickey	chouser: Foo/create works tough?
09:17	@chouser	:-) yeah
09:17	rhickey	hrm
09:18	@chouser	Foo is a thing that Foo/create is a part of
09:18	rhickey	there still might be (record Foo k1 v1 k2 v2 ...)
09:18	@chouser	You can ask Foo for its methods and find create. This doesn't feel like a hack.
09:19	rhickey	but any data-driven (maker Tag ...) is going to have overhead vs a dedicated fn
09:19	@chouser	But Foo-create is not a part of Foo, it's this other thing that was produced as a side-effect of defining the type.
09:19	rhickey	chouser: it would never be F00-create, more like create-Foo
09:19	AWizzArd	How would we like to create instances of Foos? (Foo/create 1 2 3) or (create-Foo 1 2 3) or (create-rec Foo 1 2 3)?
09:20	rhickey	AWizzArd: are you just restating the question?
09:20	@chouser	so a separate create fn will be: slower, compilcate usage of ->, probably produce a lots of (partial create Foo), ... all in exchange for "feeling" a little less like a hack.
09:20	rhickey	Foo/create will be there, is hosty, and non-mappable (at present)
09:21	rhickey	create Tag ... has overhead, needs comp/partial to map
09:22	rhickey	also, there will still need to be a separate keyvals factory
09:22	rhickey	in my mind that was (record Foo ...)
09:23	@chouser	they might as well have the same shape, right? create-Foo and record-Foo ?
09:23	@chouser	or (create Foo v1 v2) and (record Foo k1 v1 k2 v2)
09:24	@chouser	there's got to be some third way
09:24	rhickey	you have to also consider what Foo designates in (create Foo ...)
09:25	rhickey	Foo will be a class name
09:25	rhickey	thus as an ordinary arg will designate a class
09:26	@chouser	Is the only strike against just using Foo/create that it's not a proper function?
09:26	rhickey	chouser: and hosty
09:27	@chouser	I can easily pretend its namespacy instead
09:27	wthidden	rhickey: Was/is there a problem with the way CLOS does this sort of thing that Clojure want's to avoid?
09:28	rhickey	note that falling out of this will be the ability to define deftypes of all static methods
09:28	AWizzArd	wthidden: the proposed way is more like CL structs I find
09:29	hoeck	what about generating a Foo/create static method and a Foo/create static field, where the latter contians the wrapper fn?
09:31	wthidden	AWizzard: now that I think more about it I agree its closer to CL structs.
09:31	rhickey	wthidden: CLOS does the data-driven approach, will not compete perf-wise with direct fns
09:31	rhickey	hoeck: sounds confusing
09:32	wthidden	rhickey: Ah yes, the seventeen levels of indirection before we actually do some work. Now I rememeber some of the CLOS pain.
09:34	AWizzArd	So far it sounds that for technical reasons create-foo has advantages over (create-rec Foo ...).
09:34	wthidden	well if I had my druthers I'd go more towards CL structs way of doing things, but then I'm a lisp weeny at heart.
09:35	kzar	So I built Compojure and put the compojure.jar inside ~/.swank-clojure/ directory, restarted Clojure but (use 'compojure) isn't working. What should I do?
09:37	rhickey	wthidden: I think the data-driven approach is not the best foundation - since each ctor is really unique code, forcing them to live behind a generic data driven interface means you can't ever reach that code directly, whereas if you have the direct fn, you can always build a generic data-driven thingy
09:39	npoektop	if i do (assoc map key val), it returns a new map. Is there a way to destructively assoc?
09:39	@chouser	npoektop: not really -- why do you think you want to?
09:40	npoektop	chouser, i want to insert a new key/val pair into map
09:40	npoektop	into existing map
09:40	@chouser	npoektop: part of the promise of Clojure's persistent maps is that if you have one, you can rely on the fact that it will not change on you. It is immutable.
09:41	@chouser	npoektop: why not create a new map and just start using that one instead of the old one?
09:42	hoeck	kzar: class-not-found exception?
09:43	hoeck	kzar: try (->> (System/getProperty "java.class.path") (.split #":") seq (map println) dorun) and look wether your .swank-clojure/compojure.jar is actually on the classpath
09:44	npoektop	chouser, how to bind (assoc my-map ...) to my-map?
09:44	AWizzArd	if my-map is state then it could be a ref
09:45	npoektop	AWizzArd, it's a variable
09:46	hoeck	kzar: maybe you have to restart emacs too (after putting jars into .swank-clojure or .clojure)
09:46	AWizzArd	npoektop: when it needs to get accessed from several parts of your program and is something that could in principle get stored in a db, then you can say (def my-map (ref {})) and assoc into it within dosync
09:47	kzar	hoeck: Yea when I do it says it couldn't find anything like clojure.clj etc. Doing that command does list compojure.jar as one of the items. I have restarted emacs
09:48	npoektop	AWizzArd, yeah. I've just read that section. But i need smth simpler. I know it's a lame question, but i can't find how to do (_bind_ my-map (assoc my-map ...))
09:48	@chouser	npoektop: it depends on your context. AWizzArd is correct, but often the "rebinding" can be done locally and so no reference type is needed.
09:49	@chouser	,(loop [m {}, i 0] (if (> i 5) m (recur (assoc m i (str i)) (inc i))))
09:49	clojurebot	{5 "5", 4 "4", 3 "3", 2 "2", 1 "1", 0 "0"}
09:49	hoeck	kzar: can you paste your error to lisppaste or gist.github.com?
09:49	AWizzArd	npoektop: for transient data you should follow chouser advice and rebind it locally, or use reduce or recursion.
09:50	@chouser	npoektop: there, each time through the loop, m and i are bound to a new value, even though the values themselves (a map and an integer respectively) never change.
09:51	hoeck	kzar: compojure has also some more dependencies in the deps/ directory, maybe you have to add them to .swank-clojure too
09:54	kzar	hoeck: hmm OK, here's the paste http://paste.lisp.org/display/97768
09:54	sexpbot	Execution Timed Out!
09:57	kzar	hoeck: brb, trying again now that the deps are there
09:59	jfields	is there a good example of using (-> ) anywhere?
10:01	kzar	hoeck: hey that worked, copied everything from compojure/lib into ./swank-clojure, restarted and it works :)
10:01	hoeck	kzar: great :)
10:01	Raynes	$(-> 3 (+ 4) (+ 1) (quot 3))
10:01	sexpbot	2
10:02	Raynes	jfields: Are you having trouble understanding it?
10:03	jfields	would prefer one example with each function, to help with understanding, I think I get it tho.
10:04	Raynes	My previous example would end up as (quot (+ (+ 3 4) 1) 3)
10:04	kzar	ah crap it didn't work I typed (use :compojure) by mistake which returned nil
10:06	Raynes	It's ignoring that link kzar posted, because it has "paste" in it, so it's odd that it just randomly timed out.
10:06	Raynes	kzar: Think you could drop in #clojure-causal for a moment and mention that link again?
10:07	hoeck	kzar: mhh, maybe your compojure.jar is corrupt? can you open it in midnight-commander and examine its contents?
10:11	hoeck	kzar: (or use jar -t compojure.jar on the commandline)
10:12	kzar	hoeck: Should that command take a long time?
10:13	hoeck	kzar: maybe, the jar command is slow, thats why I'm always using mc :)
10:14	kzar	hoeck: Heh ok, all this is new to me anyway. brb going to make some tea. Thanks for the help
10:14	kzar	so far
10:14	hoeck	kzar: unzip -l compojure.jar will also work, and its faster :)
10:37	kzar	still going heh
10:38	wlangstroth	jfields: http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html
10:38	wlangstroth	do a find for "(->"
10:38	wlangstroth	that's the clearest example I've found
10:38	hoeck	kzar: the jar -t ?
10:39	sexpbot	Execution Timed Out!
10:39	Raynes	Aha!
10:39	Raynes	Oh wait.
10:39	Raynes	Never mind. :\|
10:39	wlangstroth	ie (-> x f3 f2 f1) is the same as (f1 (f2 (f3 x)))
10:40	kzar	hoeck: Yea, just tried the other command on a different machine and that was instat. Pasted an annotation to my paste with the output
10:40	AWizzArd	((comp f1 f2 f3) x) is also an alternative
10:40	kzar	isntant*
10:40	kzar	ahh can't type
10:40	Raynes	That last one was because that article is huge and it didn't find a title in time.
10:41	Raynes	At least for URL grabbing.
10:41	hoeck	kzar: oh, there is something missing in your compojure.jar!
10:42	wlangstroth	AWizzArd: comp doesn't sit well with me, but maybe I have to warm up to it
10:42	kzar	hoeck: ah bugger, at least that 'splains it
10:42	Raynes	You don't like function composition?
10:42	Raynes	You'd hate Haskell.
10:43	wlangstroth	Raynes: no, it's the format - I prefer -> to comp
10:43	AWizzArd	wlangstroth: I also like -> because it lets us list the jobs in the order we think about them, while comp reverses this but reads like (f1 (f2 (f3 x))) === (comp f1 f2 f3)
10:43	hoeck	kzar: it should be about 0.5M in size, containing around 400 files
10:43	Raynes	Oh. I agree.
10:43	hoeck	kzar: maybe download it again or run ant/lein whatever to rebuild it
10:43	Chousuke	comp creates a new function though
10:43	kzar	hoeck: Yea I'll get a proper version, I know how to test it's good now as well
10:44	kzar	hoeck: Thanks for helping me
10:44	Chousuke	so ((comp x1 x2 x3) foo) is more wasteful than (-> foo x1 x2 x3)
10:44	hoeck	kzar: youre welcome :)
10:44	wlangstroth	Chousuke: haha - exactly
10:45	AWizzArd	Is something like reflection planned for defrecords? (defrecord Foo [a b c]), (reflect (create-Foo 1 2 3)) ==> {:class Foo, :create-fn #<ns$_create-Foo___36@e3ed>, :fields [a b c], :options {}}
10:46	Chousuke	you can always use the java reflection APIs :P
10:47	Chousuke	but hm.
10:47	Chousuke	I accidentally pressed Cmd-Q in emacs, and it then asked whether I want to quit, as there are processes running
10:48	Chousuke	I answered no, the dialog went away, and... emacs quit.
10:49	Chousuke	that's a wierd bug to have :P
10:49	Chousuke	weird*
10:50	rhickey	question #2 for the day - record equality can have either straight map semantics or include same-type check - preferences?
10:50	hoeck	Chousuke: mhh, doesn't he ask "there are active processes, still want to quit" yes/no?
10:50	AWizzArd	include same-type check please
10:50	Chousuke	hoeck: yes, it did. and I answered no, and it still quit :P
10:51	AWizzArd	rhickey: please allow me to ask if for Q#1 there is a descision yet.
10:51	Licenser_	lein search has now update (which updates used libraries :)
10:52	rhickey	AWizzArd: no
10:52	Chousuke	rhickey: would there be a way to compare records with map-semantics too then?
10:53	rhickey	Chousuke: dunno, but there is only one =
10:53	AWizzArd	I just see that there will be more usecases for included types.
10:55	cemerick	rhickey: map semantics please.
10:56	rhickey	cemerick: current deftype uses type tag
10:57	cemerick	yeah, I noticed :-)
10:59	cemerick	Mixing the type tag into equality seems decidedly contrary to the general approach; records are just bags of slots (expandable, even), protocols cut across all hierarchies as necessary, etc.
11:00	rhickey	cemerick: I don't get your point re: protocols
11:01	AWizzArd	the name defrecord already implies for me that type information is an important one
11:01	AWizzArd	first of all it is a specific kind of data collection, and only secondary it is a map
11:03	AWizzArd	(into {} (create-Foo 1 2 3)) ==> {:a 1, :b 2, :c 3}
11:03	Chousuke	I'm more inclined to think that a record is just a map that has been given a name
11:03	AWizzArd	if that were possible then it would be easy to compare with map semantics
11:03	sattvik	rhickey: Is there a significant performance penalty for one approach over the other? To a certain extent, I think that type checking vs. general seems somewhat analogous to equals vs. equalsIgnoreCase.
11:04	AWizzArd	Chousuke: (def x {:a 1, :b 2}) is in my opinion a named map, while (defrecord Foo ..) is more general, it categorizes maps of a specific kind.
11:04	rhickey	sattvik: perf shouldn't matter for this decision
11:04	AWizzArd	Leaving out the the type in comparisons would miss the point.
11:04	cemerick	rhickey: my point (hardly made) was that IMO, records are their slots, for which the type tag is merely a shorthand, and it seems that protocols take the same stance.
11:05	rhickey	cemerick: protocols don't seem subject to meaningful equality
11:05	cemerick	hrm, now I'm arguing with myself in my head
11:06	sattvik	cemerick: So would two types with equivalent content be equivalent?
11:06	cemerick	sattvik: that's what I've been suggesting, yes.
11:06	cemerick	wait, I'm going to go get a Snapple, and then be back with an astonishingly convincing argument.
11:07	rhickey	or recant :)
11:08	AWizzArd	In principle we would have to see how people are using it. If the place is scattered with (and (instance? Foo obj1) (instance Foo obj2) (= obj1 obj2)) something is wrong.
11:08	AWizzArd	But (= (into {} obj1) random-map) is not bad for the case without the type.
11:08	sattvik	Hmm.. should (= (create-Type1 1 false) (create-Type2 1 false))? From a Java perspective, this generally is not the case, but this is not Java...
11:09	wlangstroth	I'm going to avoid toolshedding entirely, but is there anywhere the defrecord issue is laid out in detail?
11:12	AWizzArd	Not implicating the type means in principle that a programmer is forced to manually check for the types explicitly in every single comparison, if he/she wants clean and self-documenting code.
11:13	sattvik	More specifically, should (= (create-RadialPoint 0.4 1.0) (create-CartesianPont 0.4 1.0))?
11:13	AWizzArd	type errors may get detected much later without implicit type checking
11:14	cemerick	sattvik: presumably, the names of the slots are different for those objects.
11:15	rhickey	cemerick: that's a weak standard
11:15	cemerick	yeah, I know
11:16	AWizzArd	cemerick: now that defrecords will possibly get a stable name we can get even more useful serialization (long-term that is, and over the network)
11:16	seths	rhickey: OT: how likely are breaking changes to deftype before Apr 22? I'm presenting labrepl then and want to be ready to update the code
11:16	cemerick	Once concern I have w.r.t. including the tag is it potentially makes interop between two established, related libraries more difficult.
11:16	rhickey	AWizzArd: they always got a stable name when AOTed
11:16	rhickey	cemerick: how so?
11:17	sattvik	cemerick: That's true. Or, at least, one should hope so. I am not sure I have a preference. The more general approach does seem more in line with how clojure handles value in general. After all (= [1.0] '(1)).
11:17	AWizzArd	rhickey: I mean more the "even dynamically" part of your update today :)
11:18	rhickey	AWizzArd: that won't hold since while the names might be the same, the classes won't necessarily, and thus the serialization won't be dynamically viable
11:19	AWizzArd	rhickey: ok, i see. And what about this example case: I don't aot my code and serialize instances of (defrecord Foo [x]), then restart the jvm and reload the code and try to deserialize. Would that work, if the fields of the class didn't change?
11:20	cemerick	rhickey: well, consider ring and compojure -- for some time, the latter produced "ring-compliant" objects (requests, responses, etc). In such a situation, where one wants to produce records that are functionally equivalent to another lib's records, one would have to use that other lib's defrecord types. That seems like an unnecessary barrier.
11:20	rhickey	cemerick: your extending this equality limitation to a greater extent, other than equality, they will be substantially interoperable
11:21	rhickey	you're
11:21	cemerick	I suppose it's largely irrelevant in a world where everyone's using protocols.
11:21	AWizzArd	cemerick: even when you use Protocols?
11:22	AWizzArd	what if in this scenario my defrecord is incompatible? Then this would go unnoticed, because for a short moment some other ring defrecord may contain the same data/fields, but generally is incompatible.
11:22	AWizzArd	cemerick: also if (= your-map (into {} some-ring-record)) worked or something similar it would still be fine.
11:23	cemerick	sure, but I'd like to be sure we don't need/want that wart :-)
11:23	AWizzArd	When I vote for "please include the type check" I don't want to forbid map-like comparisons.
11:23	AWizzArd	Just getting the default right.
11:23	cemerick	OK, let's get into stupid question territory: what are the types for? (a) protocol dispatch, (b) construction of an object matching the type's declaration, (c) ....?
11:24	AWizzArd	program correctness
11:24	cemerick	AWizzArd: meaning what?
11:24	rhickey	(c) interface implementation, (d) primitive fields, (e) fast accessors
11:24	AWizzArd	or filtering specific objects out of a vector of records
11:24	cemerick	rhickey: yeah, I was (perhaps foolishly) trying to stay away from impl details
11:25	AWizzArd	cemerick: I have no concrete case for that, I just think that objects may slip through comparisons as equal and produce some problems later on
11:26	sattvik	cemerick: Perhaps interop with host libraries? If I understand it correctly, you could deftype an EJB.
11:27	AWizzArd	Btw, will the newdeftype be able to do (deftype clojure.lang.PersistentVector ...)?
11:27	cemerick	sattvik: sure -- and in that case, you're sort of opting into the host type hierarchy.
11:27	cemerick	AWizzArd: OK; say you have type A with slots :start and :end, and type B with slots :start and :end -- if your operations are protocols, where does an "erroneous" equality check lead you astray?
11:28	rhickey	cemerick: I'd flip it around, doesn't the fact that protocols won't match a same-shaped thing already create a difference?
11:29	rhickey	i.e. equality alone doesn't break interop
11:29	cemerick	rhickey: yeah, that was what I was getting at with the ring/compojure interop thing not really being germane given protocols.
11:30	rhickey	cemerick: there is a huge amount of data manipulating stuff around maps that will still work, but I'm not sure entire-map-equality is that important an operation
11:31	rhickey	when manipulating things like records
11:31	cemerick	yeah, neither am I
11:31	rhickey	and when it is, you don't ever want apples = oranges
11:32	rhickey	maybe a-map-literal = an-orange
11:32	rhickey	but I'm hoping for a convenient literal form for orange
11:32	rhickey	#Orange{:a 1 :b 2} or something
11:33	cemerick	I'm just trying to ferret out what it means for types to be involved in equality in general, i.e. why (= #Bar{:a 5 :b 6} #Foo{:a 5 :b 5}) would be bad
11:33	rhickey	cemerick: when Foos and Bars are used as keys in a map?
11:33	AWizzArd	Although there exists one case where it would be comfortable to have a map-like comparison: we don't need to create artificial Foos just for comparisons, or otherwise hack some verbose code. (= some-foo {:a 1, :b2}) vs (= some-foo (create-Foo 1 2))
11:34	rhickey	cemerick: when Foos and Bars are placed in a set
11:34	rhickey	oops, some disappear
11:34	cemerick	rhickey: well, whether that's good or bad depends on one's preference w.r.t. equality semantics
11:35	AWizzArd	I already stumbled upon this with sorted-set-bys or sorted maps, don't remember, but I think it were sets. To get objects out of a set with subseq I had to artificially create deftype instances so that the comparator would work.
11:35	rhickey	cemerick: so, no oranges for me when I send you to buy groceries? :)
11:35	AWizzArd	I think rhickey got a point here, because that position is more safe. One may want another semantics, but then one should really write ones own comparator.
11:36	rhickey	cemerick: a common complaint when people were using metadata for types was that it didn't participate in equality
11:37	cemerick	the other side will be coming for you shortly :-P
11:37	rhickey	cemerick: likely
11:37	cemerick	Having to consider types at all is an odd-feeling reversion after a long time with just maps and multimethods.
11:37	rhickey	cemerick: but what were you using to distinguish your multimethods?
11:39	AWizzArd	I always added a :type slot sigh
11:39	cemerick	sometimes class or type, oftentimes existence of slots necessary to support the methods being dispatched to.
11:39	cemerick	Some would say the latter is "manifest typing". 0.0
11:39	cemerick	hrm, wrong emoticon
11:41	cemerick	so, given protocol dispatch, I'm now flipping to include type in equality.
11:41	cemerick	But there has to be a better solution for untyped equality than (= some-map (into {} foo-record))
11:41	AWizzArd	(:
11:41	cemerick	rhickey: the journey is the reward :-)
11:42	rhickey	cemerick: I agree, and it ends up type-including equality can be built on type-ignoring but not vice-versa
11:42	cemerick	plus, I got to scare AWizzArd a little ;-)
11:43	cemerick	rhickey: are we talking about anything fancier than a map-level = plus an instanceof?
11:44	Licenser_	Is the (theoretical Foo) here a java object or something else? Idnd
11:44	rhickey	cemerick: I appreciate the push-back. Now with defrecord distinct from deftype it would be possible to do something slightly less efficient with defrecord, if the flexibility was there
11:44	rhickey	cemerick: nope, just that
11:44	Licenser_	't joined early enough sadly
11:44	rhickey	cemerick: actually identical? classes
11:44	rhickey	not instanceof
11:44	cemerick	oh, right
11:45	rhickey	one nice thing about types as metadata was that it was easy to spoof a type on the fly
11:47	rhickey	otoh, there's no way to get the perf that deftype + protocols can deliver
11:47	moshisushi	hello tehre
11:47	moshisushi	noob question: http://pastie.org/919515
11:48	cemerick	moshisushi: you need to use clojure.contrib.duck-streams before you can invoke reader directly
11:48	cemerick	or, better yet, (require '[clojure.contrib.duck-streams :as io]) and then use io/reader
11:48	Licenser_	moshisushi: you - okay cem was faster
11:48	moshisushi	:>
11:50	moshisushi	cemerick: Could not locate clojure/contrib/duck_streams__init.class or clojure/contrib/duck_streams.clj on classpath
11:50	bsteuber	rhickey: I'm currently working on docstring-support for def - will there be a chance you accept the patch once I sent you the contributor agreement?
11:50	moshisushi	hmm
11:50	cemerick	moshisushi: what does your classpath look like?
11:50	moshisushi	just clojure.jar right now
11:51	Licenser_	ah you need clojure-contrib.jar too
11:51	cemerick	make sure it's the same corresponding version, though.
11:51	moshisushi	Licenser_: makes sense! sorry for bothering y'all with these lamey questions
11:52	Licenser_	moshisushi: you are not bothering at all
11:53	moshisushi	oh by they way... anyone knows of a "quotable" paper/article on clojure STM? i'm writing a bachelors essay on STM (in Haskell specifically), and would love to add a short comparison to the clojure dito
11:59	cemerick	rhickey: you replied "not yet" to Stu's question re: protocol dispatch precedence on the list last month. Should I read that as "coming soon" or "should be possible, but it's not on the table", or something in between? :-)
12:00	rhickey	cemerick: I really don't want to repeat "prefers"
12:01	cemerick	rhickey: what was wrong with prefers?
12:03	rhickey	cemerick: less a problem with prefers than with the situation it addresses (MI of interfaces and the ability to hook protocols up to interfaces). I don't have another solution at present
12:08	cemerick	good luck on that one :-)
12:08	Licenser_	rhickey: I'd watch out this practice is patented by Siemens
12:11	cemerick	Could just dispatch based on lexicographic order when there's ambiguity. Would make interface names a lot more amusing.
12:12	Licenser_	a0001Cow a0002Sheep a0003Dog
12:12	Licenser_	weeh for class names :P
12:12	rhickey	cemerick: but the problem is always pre-existing interfaces
12:12	cemerick	rhickey: sure
12:12	cemerick	that was a joke, there, son! :-P
12:12	Licenser_	can't you give the multi method a kind of 'compare' function?
12:13	cemerick	Licenser_: you can declare dispatch value priority.
12:14	Licenser_	so where is the problem?
12:20	rhickey	Licenser_: no similar capability for protocols yet
12:22	Licenser_	oh okay
13:39	borkdude	Guys, whenever I start swank-clojure-project in Emacs, it keeps polling forever
13:39	borkdude	what could be wrong?
13:41	bsteuber	Borkdude: check your inferior-lisp buffer
13:44	Borkdude	bsteuber: it starts a server
13:44	Borkdude	(do (.. java.net.InetAddress getLocalHost getHostAddress) nil)(swank.swank/start-server "/tmp/slime.2347" :encoding "iso-latin-1-unix")
13:44	Borkdude
13:45	Borkdude	And then this happens... Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/main
13:47	Borkdude	bsteuber: does swank-clojure-project use clojure+clojure.contrib from the project's lib directory?
13:47	polypus	Borkdude: yes it does
13:47	Borkdude	I have the lib directory at war/WEB-INF/lib
13:47	polypus	i don't think it'll find it there
13:47	cemerick	rhickey: Not sure if you're watching this, but this issue is a combination of mundane and really important: https://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/281-make-more-datastructures-serializable
13:48	sexpbot	#281 - Make more datastructures serializable (Test) \| Clojure \| Assembla
13:48	Borkdude	I am trying to run this project here http://github.com/sethtrain/beget
13:49	Borkdude	ah.. so swank-clojure-project doesn't really 'read' project.clj, it just supposes you use the same structure always?
13:49	Borkdude	that would explain
13:49	polypus	yep. that got me once too
13:54	s450r1	Borkdude: since you have a project.clj, I'm guessing you're using lein? If so, you can run "lein swank" and then connect from emacs with M-x slime-connect. Then you can use the jars in war/WEB-INF/lib, I think.
13:55	bsteuber	Borkdude: so maybe you should go with lein swank then
13:55	bsteuber	s450r1: oh, didn't see your post
13:55	Borkdude	s450r1, ah that sounds helpful
13:56	Borkdude	I now made a symbolic link from lib to the war dir which also works
13:56	Borkdude	but lein swank sounds cleaner
13:57	Borkdude	s450r1: borkdude@Ubuntu-VM:~/temp/beget$ lein swank
13:57	Borkdude	swank is not a task. Use "help" to list all tasks.
13:57	Borkdude
13:58	Borkdude	ah I see I need a plugin, sorry
13:58	bsteuber	yeah, they changed this
13:59	technomancy	no, it's always been a separate plugin
14:00	s450r1	Borkdude: oops, sorry, should have included that information
14:00	s450r1	http://wiki.github.com/technomancy/leiningen/emacs-integration
14:00	bsteuber	technomancy: oh - then I guess I used the plugin without realizing :)
14:01	Borkdude	s450r1: yup, it works, thanks!
14:06	s450r1	np, technomancy did all the work :-)
14:07	s450r1	technomancy: thanks for all your projects, I'm using a good number of them... oh wow, relax.el, I think I can use that right now. Sweet!
14:07	technomancy	s450r1: that makes one of us
14:08	technomancy	I haven't used it since I wrote it =)
14:09	wlangstroth	technomancy: lein is gold, though
14:10	wlangstroth	technomancy: I'm not trying to embarrass you or anything, but if I had to start with maven instead of being eased into the process with leiningen, that would have been painful
14:11	wlangstroth	so thanks from me, too
14:15	technomancy	great =)
15:20	Borkdude	How do I specify the namespaces to compile in a project.clj?
15:20	Borkdude	:namespaces [beget beget.templates] ??
15:22	Borkdude	I changed the beget/templates.clj file lein says all :namespaces already compiled
15:23	jweiss	is there a fn, maybe in contrib that will automatically (use 'blah.blorg :reload-all) when i save blah/blorg.clj?
15:28	LauJensen	jweiss: You aren't that PHP blogger by any chance, are you?
15:28	jweiss	LauJensen: PHP? good lord, no
15:28	LauJensen	Ok, then I'll be happy to help
15:28	jweiss	hehe
15:29	LauJensen	Clojure doesn't know when you're saving files, you if you want that kind of functionality, you need to work it into Emacs
15:29	LauJensen	(just kidding, I have no hate for PHP bloggers)
15:29	jweiss	LauJensen: yeah i figured it'd either have to run as a thread or agent from the repl
15:29	jweiss	but your emacs suggestion sounds interesting as well
15:40	programble	wow
15:40	programble	you guys arent pricks
15:41	heejp	hey
15:41	heejp	can anybody help me with something, please?
15:41	programble	fuckin #python pricks
15:41	programble	heejp: just ask :)
15:41	heejp	I'm having trouble with multimethod dispatch functions
15:42	heejp	I'm working on an object system called Fenrir
15:42	heejp	and here's my instance making function:
15:42	heejp	(defmulti new-obj #(:_fenrir_class-name %))
15:42	heejp	(defmethod new-obj ::fObject [fclass & kvals]
15:42	heejp	(with-meta (apply struct-map (conj kvals (:_fenrir_struct fclass)))
15:42	heejp	{:_fenrir_class (:_fenrir_class-name fclass)}))
15:42	kotarak	heejp: please paste somewhere and post the link here
15:42	LauJensen	~paste
15:42	clojurebot	lisppaste8, url
15:42	kotarak	eg. paste.lisp.org
15:43	heejp	sorry
15:43	LauJensen	programble: One of the tricks of keeping a calm and friendly community, is to avoid from foul language and dissing other groups - So appologize and move on :)
15:43	heejp	I'll take that into account next time
15:43	heejp	anyway
15:43	heejp	with that code snippet I pasted
15:43	heejp	when I do something like this:
15:44	heejp	(new-obj fGameObject :location 1 :sprite 2)
15:44	heejp	I get this error:
15:44	heejp	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$fn (repl-1:17)
15:44	kotarak	heejp: you dispatch function must take the same number of arguments. Try: #(:_fenrir_class-nam (first %&))
15:45	heejp	um...
15:45	heejp	I see
15:45	heejp	let me try it
15:45	hiredman	(comp :_fenrir_class-nam first list)
15:46	heejp	hey
15:46	heejp	it worked!
15:46	heejp	hehehehe
15:46	heejp	thanks, guys
15:58	dakrone	,(.replaceAll "foo\bar" "\\" "SLASH")
15:58	clojurebot	java.util.regex.PatternSyntaxException: Unexpected internal error near index 1 \ ^
15:58	dakrone	,(.replaceAll "foo\\bar" "\\" "SLASH")
15:58	clojurebot	java.util.regex.PatternSyntaxException: Unexpected internal error near index 1 \ ^
15:58	dakrone	,(.replaceAll "foo\bar" "\\\" "SLASH")
15:58	clojurebot	EOF while reading string
15:58	dakrone	,(.replaceAll "foo\bar" "\\\\" "SLASH")
15:58	clojurebot	"foo\bar"
15:58	dakrone	can someone tell me how to get the backslash replaced?
15:59	kotarak	,(.replaceAll "foo\\bar" "\\\\" "SLASH")
15:59	clojurebot	"fooSLASHbar"
15:59	kotarak	I think "\b" is bell, no?
15:59	programble	it is
15:59	programble	no wait
15:59	programble	isnt that \a?
16:00	kotarak	backspace, maybe?
16:00	programble	yes
16:00	dakrone	okay, why the 4 slashes for 1 regular slash?
16:00	kotarak	2 for the string, 2 for the regex
16:01	kotarak	regex requires \\, but \\ in a String is only one \.
16:01	opqdonut	the string "\\\\" is really the string "\\" which corresponds to the regex "\"
16:01	dakrone	ahh, so escaping for the reader, then escaping again for the regex
16:01	hiredman	,(->> #"" class .getMethods (map #(.getName %)))
16:01	clojurebot	("toString" "matches" "split" "split" "compile" "compile" "matcher" "quote" "pattern" "flags" "wait" "wait" "wait" "hashCode" "getClass" "equals" "notify" "notifyAll")
16:02	hiredman	split but no replace
16:02	opqdonut	dakrone: yeah, basically
16:02	kotarak	,(.toString #"\\")
16:02	clojurebot	"\\\\"
16:03	kotarak	,(str #"\\")
16:03	clojurebot	"\\\\"
16:03	Borkdude	And then suddenly 'lein swank' stopped working, no idea what happened
16:03	kotarak	,(.replaceAll "foo\\bar" (str #"\\") "SLASH")
16:03	clojurebot	"fooSLASHbar"
16:03	dakrone	how does http://gist.github.com/366261 look for stripping out Clojure reader chars
16:03	dakrone	am I missing any?
16:04	Borkdude	still have this in my project.clj: :dev-dependencies [[swank-clojure "1.1.0"]
16:04	Borkdude	[leiningen/lein-swank "1.1.0"]]
16:04	Borkdude	then it should just work, right?
16:04	LauJensen	dakrone: ^ ?
16:05	hiredman	dakrone: http://github.com/hiredman/clojure/blob/readerII/src/clj/clojure/reader.clj#L516
16:05	kotarak	^ is deprecated
16:05	hiredman	oh
16:05	LauJensen	I vote for undeprecating it!
16:05	hiredman	reader macros
16:05	LauJensen	Oh wait, we're not voting :)
16:05	hiredman	it's going to be used for type hinting
16:06	kotarak	"clojure is not designed by public voting" rhickey (or something like that) (and that's good, IMHO)
16:06	dakrone	LauJensen: thanks, I'll add that one
16:06	dakrone	hiredman: cool, thanks
16:07	LauJensen	kotarak: Of course its good
16:08	StartsWithK	there should be a secret voting then :)
16:08	LauJensen	StartsWithK: oh there is...
16:08	LauJensen	I'm pretty sure :)
16:09	hiredman	clojurebot: secrets?
16:09	clojurebot	I don't understand.
16:09	StartsWithK	hmm.. is there a secret handshake too.. we may never know
16:09	hiredman	I think polls have been on the todo list for clojurebot forever now
16:11	kotarak	StartsWithK: #^'~@ (<- secret reader macro)
16:12	StartsWithK	kotarak, hehehe
16:12	LauJensen	The secret is, that when you see the Clojure Logo in a mirror, it reads "PERL" in swirly 3d letters
16:13	StartsWithK	repl is a hidden clue :)
16:13	kotarak	I use Clojure as my secret weapon at work. Maybe we'll be able to hide clojure in perl programs to perfect this technique.
16:20	raek	what is recommended for signaling exceptions? deftype'd java exceptions? c.c.error-kit? c.c.condition?
16:23	StartsWithK	raek, gen-class is your only option if you want new exception name (or java)
16:23	raek	I want the ability do distinguish different kinds of errors
16:24	hiredman	condition has a niggling little bug that I don't think is fixed upstream yet
16:24	raek	...but not neccerarily by having a java class for each one
16:24	hiredman	the various java.lang exceptions aren't good enough?
16:24	Borkdude	Any idea why my 'lein swank' is not working anymore?
16:24	hiredman	clojurebot: exceptions!
16:24	clojurebot	http://paste.lisp.org/display/74305
16:25	Borkdude	It worked an hour or so ago...
16:25	hiredman	clojurebot: botsnack
16:25	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
16:25	bsteuber	Borkdude: what's the exact problem?
16:25	Borkdude	it says 'swank is not a task'
16:26	hiredman	have you run lien deps?
16:26	Borkdude	hiredman, yes, but I will do it now to be sure
16:26	hiredman	the swank plugin needs to be a dev dependency
16:26	hiredman	and deps will fetch it
16:28	Borkdude	ah I now get it
16:28	Borkdude	also with lein swank it doesn't support the lib directory to be something other than <proj-dir>/lib
16:29	Borkdude	even if specified otherwise in project.clj
16:29	Borkdude	even if > although I mean
16:39	slyphon	anyone else have slime sort of mysteriously change back to the 'user' namespace occasionally?
16:41	tomoj	when I tell it to switch into a namespace that doesn't exist, it goes back to 'user'
16:41	tomoj	that's the only time I've noticed it
16:41	slyphon	hmm
16:41	slyphon	oh, maybe it's when i open a namespace i haven't previously required
16:41	slyphon	or compiled
16:41	tomoj	yeah, that would do it
16:42	slyphon	ok, as long as i'm not just losing it :)
16:48	ztellman	,(assoc {} :octaves 3)
16:48	clojurebot	{:octaves 3}
16:48	ztellman	hmm, in 1.2.0 that throws an exception for that particular keyword
16:48	ztellman	anyone know why?
16:51	@chouser	ztellman: seems to work fine here
16:52	dakrone	yea, same here
16:52	ztellman	hmm, when I open a fresh repl it works fine for me too
16:53	ztellman	weird, dunno how I got into this state
16:53	tomoj	what's the exception??
16:53	ztellman	(class: example/opengl/marble$eval__70767, method: <clinit> signature: ()V) Incompatible argument to function
17:19	Licenser	is there a function to test if something is a map?
17:19	Licenser	aka hashmap
17:20	remleduff	associative? maybe
17:21	tomoj	well, there's map?
17:22	Raynes	$(map {})
17:22	sexpbot	Wrong number of args passed to: core$map
17:22	Raynes	$(map? {})
17:22	sexpbot	DENIED!
17:22	Raynes	Orly
17:22	Raynes	Must not have map? whitelisted.
17:22	remleduff	$(associative? {})
17:22	sexpbot	false
17:22	remleduff	Color me surprised
17:22	remleduff	$(associative? [])
17:22	sexpbot	true
17:23	Raynes	Whoda thunk it?
17:23	remleduff	$(doc associative?)
17:23	sexpbot	------------------------- clojure.core/associative? ([coll]) Returns true if coll implements Associative
17:23	tomoj	uhh
17:23	tomoj	here, (associative? {}) is true
17:23	Raynes	,(associative? {})
17:23	clojurebot	true
17:24	Raynes	Licenser: ^ That's kind of weird.
17:24	Licenser	no that my friend is a bug
17:24	Raynes	Oh.
17:24	Raynes	I thought so.
17:30	Licenser	thanks for the help and night people
18:00	maacl	Why would I get a null pointer exception if I try to do M-. (using emacs/SLIME) on a the name of a var in the same file as it is defined, while it works perfectly well if doing the same from within another file?
18:08	dnolen	maacl: that will only work if you ran compile file (C-c C-k) on that file, if you eval'ed a secpr with C-x C-e, M-. will not work
18:09	maacl	dnolen: ah, thanks
20:27	rhickey	it's alive! - first cut of defrecord is up
20:33	arohner	http://arohner.blogspot.com/2010/04/writing-jquery-code-with-scriptjure.html thoughts?
20:33	sexpbot	/dev/rohner: Writing JQuery code with Scriptjure
22:27	vIkSiT	hi all
22:27	vIkSiT	can anyone point me to some documentation on settings up slime / swank for a specific project started using lein?
22:30	slyphon	http://technomancy.us/126
22:30	sexpbot	in which are found tricks of the trade concerning clojure authorship - Technomancy
22:35	vIkSiT	slyphon, ah my problem is that once I do M-x swank-clojure-mode .. and point it to the proejct dir..
22:36	vIkSiT	I'm still stuck with a "Polling /var/folders.." message and slime never starts up.
22:36	slyphon	does "lein repl" work in your project dir?
22:36	clojurebot	http://www.thelastcitadel.com/dirt-simple-clojure
22:37	vIkSiT	hmm
22:37	vIkSiT	yes it does - but looks like it takes 1.1.0 rather than 1.2.0-master that I have otherwise
22:38	slyphon	1.2.0 hasn't been released officially yet, afaik
22:39	Raynes	1.2.0 master works with it.
22:39	vIkSiT	slyphon, ah yes, I mean that 1.2.0 is the JAR I'm using in my CP
22:39	vIkSiT	so I guess there are 2 issues : 1) lein repl picks up a 1.1.0 jar; and 2) swank doesn't connect to anything at all.
22:40	vIkSiT	so 1) can i specify a version of clojure for lein to use, and 2) is there a way to see the output of the swank-polling process to see where it hangs?
22:40	arohner	vIkSiT: the released version of lein starts the clojure version it's built with
22:40	arohner	sorry, the stable version of lein
22:40	vIkSiT	arohner, ohh I see.
22:41	arohner	that's fixed on lein HEAD
22:41	vIkSiT	that sucks
22:41	vIkSiT	do you recommend using the version of lein that runs 1.2.0?
22:41	arohner	I haven't tried it, but I think other people are using it successfully
22:42	vIkSiT	ah ok.
22:42	vIkSiT	and any ideas about question 2) ?
22:43	slyphon	slime-events buffer?
22:43	slyphon	i usually do lein swank
22:43	arohner	also check inferior-lisp
22:43	slyphon	and then connect using M-x slime-connect
22:43	slyphon	that way if there's a narsty stack trace i see it
22:43	slyphon	(it also lets you set properties on the command line)
22:44	slyphon	(more easily than the other way)
22:45	vIkSiT	wait, you do lein swank from the command line?
22:45	vIkSiT	is that a valid option?
22:45	slyphon	yes
22:45	vIkSiT	weird. It doesn't seem so in my case
22:45	slyphon	are you using a recent lein
22:45	slyphon	wait, hang on
22:46	vIkSiT	"swank is not a task. Use "help" to list all tasks."
22:46	slyphon	lein version?
22:47	liebke	make sure you have [leiningen/lein-swank "1.1.0"] in your project file in :dev-dependencies
22:47	slyphon	ah, that too
22:47	slyphon	it's a plugin
22:51	vIkSiT	one sec, checkingversion
22:51	vIkSiT	its 1.1.0
22:51	vIkSiT	I've added :dev-dependencies [[leiningen/lein-swank "1.1.0"]] to my project.clj now
22:53	vIkSiT	and now doing a lein deps.
23:07	arohner	so if I have a deftype/defrecord, and I get its constructor, java claims the constructor takes n+2 arguments, where 2 is the number of fields I have
23:07	arohner	lisppaste8: url?
23:08	hiredman	arohner: I imagine it also takes a map of metadata and maybe other stuff
23:08	arohner	hiredman: oh right, there are two
23:24	arohner	hiredman: btw, props again on naming c.c.java-utils/wallhack
23:24	arohner	I have a legitimate use for it now, and I smile each time I see the name
23:34	timcharper	Is there a way to map a collection of values across a function that has a side effect and still get the return value?
23:34	timcharper	Actually using the return value (somewhere down the line) is optional.
23:34	timcharper	(I'm mapping over a collection of hash maps and inserting records in a database, returning the results from those inserts)
23:35	timcharper	However, doseq, while successfully causing the side effects to occur, returns nil
23:36	arohner	timcharper: you can (doall (for [] ...))
23:36	arohner	or (doall (map...))
23:37	timcharper	Excellent! That's exactly what I'm looking for :-) thank you!