#clojure – 2010-03-25

2010-03-25

00:00	defn	brandonw: you may well be right, and your solution is fine
00:00	defn	im just curious
00:00	brandonw	yeah, it seems like the destructuring docs of let says that you can only destructure a vec on anything that supports nth
00:01	brandonw	so if you have a map as an input, you wouldn't be able to destructure it into a vec
00:02	brandonw	your best bet would be to destructure the specific value you want, and then wrap it in a vector in an additional binding
00:02	brandonw	,(let [{i :foo} {:foo {:bar 1 :baz 2}} output-val [i]] i)
00:02	clojurebot	{:bar 1, :baz 2}
00:02	brandonw	hmm that didn't work
00:03	brandonw	oh right
00:03	brandonw	,(let [{i :foo} {:foo {:bar 1 :baz 2}} output-val [i]] output-val)
00:03	clojurebot	[{:bar 1, :baz 2}]
00:05	brandonw	http://pastie.org/885990
00:05	brandonw	with a little better indentation and a def to make it more concise
00:06	brandonw	{i :foo} grabs the value mapped to the :foo key in test-val
00:06	defn	brandonw: im sorry if this is a poor quesiton but im still abit lost on how to implement it
00:06	defn	let's say we have...
00:06	brandonw	binding output-val to [i] just wraps that val in a vector
00:06	brandonw	and then you can return the vector
00:06	defn	,(def k 5)
00:06	clojurebot	DENIED
00:06	defn	ah darn
00:06	brandonw	yeah, no defs in clojurebot
00:06	brandonw	except in a let :P
00:07	brandonw	unless hiredman fixed it...?
00:07	defn	brandonw: i have learned that probably a 1000 times, but there is always the hope :)
00:07	brandonw	,(let [f (def x 1)] f)
00:07	clojurebot	DENIED
00:07	brandonw	yes he did! :)
00:08	defn	brandonw: so let's say you have {:x {:y 1 :z 2}, :xx {:yy 3 :zz 4}}
00:09	defn	how would you create a [{:y 1 :z 2} {:yy 3 :zz 4}] with destructuring -- my first thought is an anonymous function maybe?
00:10	shales	brandonw: looking at the special forms page, I think that :ivec is just one of the keys in the init-expr map that follows, just as :j and :k are. It's not a special part of let's syntax.
00:10	defn	shales: good catch, thanks
00:11	brandonw	(let [{out1 :x out2 :xx} {:x {:y 1 :z 2} :xx {:yy 3 :zz 4}} full-output [out1 out2]] full-output)
00:11	brandonw	,(let [{out1 :x out2 :xx} {:x {:y 1 :z 2} :xx {:yy 3 :zz 4}} full-output [out1 out2]] full-output)
00:11	clojurebot	[{:y 1, :z 2} {:yy 3, :zz 4}]
00:11	brandonw	shales: thanks, i thought i had missed something
00:11	brandonw	defn: wrapping a vector around two keys isn't possible in the destructuring, i don't think
00:12	defn	im trying to get a big map which is structured like the above
00:12	brandonw	you can destructure the two individual keys in a binding, but in order to wrap them in a vector, you need to explicitly create a vector with the two previously bound keys
00:12	defn	and turn it into [{:x 1 :y 2} {:xx 3 :yy 4}...]
00:12	brandonw	basically, if you have a map as your input, you can't destructure and end up with a vec i don't think
00:13	brandonw	right, i don't think you can destructure directly into that
00:13	brandonw	i think the closest you can get is destructuring into the {:x 1 :y 2} and {:xx 3 :yy 4} as two separate values
00:13	brandonw	and then create a vec inside that binding
00:13	brandonw	err in the scope of that binding
00:14	defn	heh -- i need to get my head straight
00:14	clojurebot	the world <reply>what the world needs is more higher order functions
00:17	shales	defn: if you just want a vector of all the values of a map you can do (vec (keys m))
00:17	shales	,(vec (vals {:x {:y 1 :z 2}, :xx {:yy 3 :zz 4}}))
00:17	clojurebot	[{:y 1, :z 2} {:yy 3, :zz 4}]
00:18	defn	bahahaha
00:18	defn	shales: thanks
00:18	brandonw	yep, that would definitely be much easier :)
00:18	brandonw	that isn't technically destructuring though, right?
00:18	defn	brandonw: thanks for indulging my stupidity
00:18	defn	:)
00:18	brandonw	we're all learning :)
00:19	shales	no it's not destructuring at all
00:19	brandonw	i liked going through that just for the sake of getting some practice with destructuring
00:19	brandonw	i haven't had a reason to use it yet... i don't think...
00:19	shales	yeah, I've not destructured a map yet either
00:20	defn	me either! :)
00:21	defn	one really handy one listed in the docs:
00:22	defn	,(let [{:keys [:fred :ethel :lucy]} m] m)
00:22	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unsupported binding form: :lucy
00:22	defn	,(let [{:keys [fred ethel lucy]} m] m)
00:22	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: m in this context
00:22	defn	why god, why?
00:22	brandonw	the name you want to bind to comes first in a map binding
00:23	brandonw	plus, you need to have m defind as something
00:23	brandonw	:)
00:23	defn	brandonw: :keys is a directive
00:23	defn	http://clojure.org/special_forms
00:23	brandonw	ohhhh right
00:23	brandonw	oh interesting
00:23	brandonw	so you could get what you originally wanted, a vector of the keys in a destructuring
00:23	brandonw	cool!
00:24	defn	,(let [m {:keys [fred ethel lucy]}] m)
00:24	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: fred in this context
00:24	defn	if i knew how to tie my shoes...
00:26	brandonw	actually nevermind
00:27	brandonw	that only allows you to basically do what i did, without having to do {t1 :x t2 :xx}
00:27	brandonw	instead you can just do {:keys [t1 t2]}
00:27	shales	yeah, just avoids redundancy
00:27	brandonw	,(let [{t1 :x t2 :y} {:x "hello" :y "goodbye"}] [t1 t2])
00:27	clojurebot	["hello" "goodbye"]
00:28	brandonw	,(let [{:keys [t1 t2] {:x "hello" :y "goodbye"}] [t1 t2])
00:28	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: ]
00:28	brandonw	,(let [{:keys [t1 t2]} {:x "hello" :y "goodbye"}] [t1 t2])
00:28	clojurebot	[nil nil]
00:28	brandonw	hmm
00:29	brandonw	,(let [{:keys [t1 t2]} {:t1 "hello" :t2 "goodbye"}] [t1 t2])
00:29	clojurebot	["hello" "goodbye"]
00:29	brandonw	there we go
00:29	shales	keys in the map must be keywords with the same name
00:29	shales	yep
00:29	brandonw	forgot you had the values in the vector have to be the same as the keywords
00:30	brandonw	clojure is fun
00:30	brandonw	too bad i can't use it at work yet
00:31	shales	there's similar directives for keys that are symbols or strings too
00:31	shales	,(let [{:syms [t1 t2]} {'t1 "hello" 't2 "goodbye"}] [t1 t2])
00:31	clojurebot	["hello" "goodbye"]
00:31	fanatico	just need to convince them that you want to use a new Java library called "clojure" ;)
00:31	brandonw	:(
00:31	shales	,(let [{:strs [t1 t2]} {"t1" "hello" "t2" "goodbye"}] [t1 t2])
00:31	clojurebot	["hello" "goodbye"]
00:31	brandonw	i don't even use java at work yet :(
00:31	brandonw	heck, i'm making a web app and we don't even use an mvc framework yet
00:32	fanatico	brandonw: php?
00:32	shales	What doesn't this print anything? (.start (Thread. (fn [] (println "Other thread" (Thread/currentThread)))))
00:32	brandonw	c# asp.net forms :(
00:32	brandonw	wow it is already 12:30 i should be asleep
00:32	brandonw	good night
00:32	zaphar_ps	use the clr library named clojure then :-)
00:33	brandonw	well we are going to port everything over to java eventually
00:33	brandonw	but we just need to finish it so it can replace the crap that is in use now
00:33	brandonw	which would do pretty well on the dailywtf i think :)
00:33	brandonw	goodnight
00:33	zaphar_ps	just think of all the code that will port over unchanged if it was in clojure
00:33	bmason	I notice in the compojure source some "defn-" calls... what's the difference between this and "defn" ?
00:34	shales	defn- is private
00:34	zaphar_ps	defn- make s a private function
00:34	shales	although I'm not sure what the implications are
00:34	bmason	so not accessible to things using/referring to the namespace?
00:34	zaphar_ps	it won't get exported when the namespace is used/required
00:34	bmason	cool cool
00:34	bmason	good to know
00:35	bmason	hmm, would be kinda nice to have a reader macro for that
00:35	zaphar_ps	basically it just does (with-meta fun {:private true}) to the function
00:36	zaphar_ps	bmason:
00:36	bmason	gotcha
00:37	zaphar_ps	which you can do with the #^{:private true} reader macro to shorten a bit
00:38	zaphar_ps	you can do a lot of fun stuff with metadata on clojure code
00:38	zaphar_ps	:-)
00:38	bmason	I guess that's not too bad
00:39	bmason	in fact more descriptive than C++'s "private"
00:39	zaphar_ps	lol
00:39	bmason	since you're explicitly setting meta data
00:40	bmason	instead of performing some magic
00:43	shales	hmm, when I run this in my slime repl (.start (Thread. (fn [] (println "Other thread" (Thread/currentThread))))), nothing is printed. Running the same thing in a command line repl does print the "Other thread" message.
00:45	shales	why would that be?
00:45	zaphar_ps	shales: the command line repl's threads all go to the same stdout
00:45	bmason	did you check your inferior lisp buffer?
00:45	bmason	I've had stuff come out on that
00:45	shales	bingo!
00:45	zaphar_ps	but the swank repl's spawned thread goes to the lein-swank buffer probably
00:46	zaphar_ps	heh bmason beat me to it
00:46	zaphar_ps	inferiror lisp buffer in your case since mine is a little customized
00:47	shales	that's good to know. Thought I was going a little crazy
00:47	bmason	yeah, it had me scratching my head
00:47	zaphar_ps	it's because swank sets up a special out for slime but your thread didn't use it
00:47	shales	Know how to direct the stdout to the same buffer?
00:47	bmason	emacs has taken some getting used to
00:48	zaphar_ps	shales: not off the top of my head I'm not sure if the two threads can share the same out var
00:49	bmason	you should be able to bind out to the correct stream, I would think
00:49	bmason	but I'm not sure how you would identify the correct stream
00:49	shales	had same idea. this works: (.start (let [out out] (Thread. (fn [] (binding [out out] (println "Other thread" (Thread/currentThread)))))))
00:49	zaphar_ps	bmason: capture the value of out in the first thread and use it in second thread
00:50	bmason	shales: check out with-out-str
00:50	bmason	oh, actually that's a nice one shales
00:51	bmason	makes sense
00:57	shales	ah, similar story for err
00:59	shales	but Thread.run catches and prints exceptions to stderr _outside_ the binding in the function. Don't think I can do anything about that one except catch and print all exceptions.
01:14	defn	How would I merge something like [{:count 2 :country "US"} {:count 5 :country "US"} {:count 4 :country "DK"} ...] so it would be [{:count 7 :country "US"} {:count ...}...]
01:16	defn	in other words, combine all the maps which contain :country "US", reducing on the val of :count
01:23	hiredman	defn: your maps are wrong
01:23	hiredman	they should be {"US" 2} {"DK" 4} etc
01:23	hiredman	merge-with +
01:24	defn	hiredman: this is a slow evolution of a structure
01:24	hiredman	well, it's wrong :)
01:25	defn	originally it was like {:ip-address {:count 5 :country "US"} :ip-address-b {:count 3 :country "RU"}...}
01:25	defn	err actually it was originally {:ip-address 5, :ip-address-b :3}
01:25	defn	then i added countries into the map, then i removed the ip address from the map, blah blah -- it's wrong! :)
01:25	defn	i think i need to rewrite all of this because this is clearly garbage
01:26	hiredman	(apply hash-map ((juxt [:country :count]) {:country "US" :count 1}))
01:27	hiredman	,(apply hash-map ((juxt [:country :count]) {:country "US" :count 1}))
01:27	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Key must be integer
01:27	hiredman	er
01:27	hiredman	,(apply hash-map ((juxt [country :count) {:country "US" :count 1}))
01:27	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: )
01:27	hiredman	gah!
01:27	hiredman	anyway, if you writing it correctly it will work
01:29	hiredman	your data is your schema, and schemas evolve
01:30	defn	my end goal here is to make a bar graph with incanter which shows the number of instances of IPs from all of the country codes, and then in a key have all of the IPs and the number of times they each occurred somewhere beside it in a key or something
01:30	hiredman	you could just it do with reduce
01:34	hiredman	,(reduce (fn [a {:keys [country count]}] (merge-with + a {country count})) {} [{:count 2 :country "US"} {:count 5 :country "US"} {:count 4 :country "DK"}])
01:34	clojurebot	{"DK" 4, "US" 7}
01:39	hiredman	,(map (fn [[country count]] {:country country :count count}) {"DK" 4, "US" 7})
01:39	clojurebot	({:country "DK", :count 4} {:country "US", :count 7})
01:48	defn	hiredman: thanks man -- that's very helpful
02:45	ihodes	hey all, I'm a bit of a Clojure newbie (coming from Java and some scheme and Python...) and am having trouble converting a list of strings to a list of chars (strings include "a" "{" etc)
02:45	ihodes	could someone please point me in the right direction?
02:46	hoeck	,(map seq ["a", "a-{", ")-"])
02:46	clojurebot	((\a) (\a \- \{) (\) \-))
02:47	hoeck	,(mapcat seq ["a", "a-{", ")-"])
02:47	clojurebot	(\a \a \- \{ \) \-)
02:47	hoeck	ihodes: ^^ is that what you want?
02:47	ihodes	that's superb! thanks!
02:48	hoeck	np :)
02:48	ihodes	how does that work? looks somewhat tricky
02:50	hoeck	,(seq "my String")
02:50	clojurebot	(\m \y \space \S \t \r \i \n \g)
02:50	ihodes	ah, of course... haha thank you so much!
02:50	hoeck	seq returns a sequence of characters from a string
02:50	hoeck	and mapcat calls seq on each string in the vector and concatenates the result
02:51	ihodes	that makes sense
02:51	ihodes	i've got one more question – i can convert from char to an int, but back to a char from int is proving more difficult without trusty typecasting–is there a nice way to do that?
02:52	hiredman	,(char 98)
02:52	clojurebot	\b
02:52	defn	how many core clojure fns are there nowadays?
02:52	ihodes	,(int \a)
02:52	clojurebot	97
02:52	ihodes	splendid :) thanks!
02:53	hiredman	clojurebot: ping?
02:53	clojurebot	PONG!
02:53	defn	,(count (ns-publics 'clojure.core))
02:53	clojurebot	503
02:53	defn	is that right? 500 core clojure fns?
02:55	hiredman	,((ns-publics 'clojure.core) 'print-level)
02:55	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/print-level
02:55	hiredman	not a fn
02:55	defn	ah right
02:55	defn	lots of special vars and such in there
02:55	hiredman	not that many
02:57	_ato	,(count (filter #(and (.isBound %) (fn? @%)) (map val (ns-publics 'clojure.core))))
02:57	clojurebot	464
02:57	defn	,(count (filter () (ns-publics 'clojure.core))) gah beat me to it
02:57	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
03:04	ihodes	hmmm... how can you convert a list of chars to a String? (java.lang.String. '(\a \b \c)) doesn't work, nor does (str '(\a \b \c)) or mapcat str
03:05	hiredman	why would (String. '(\a \b \c)) work?
03:05	hiredman	~jdoc String
03:06	ihodes	because you can construct a String from an array of chars, right? thought it was worth a try
03:06	hiredman	a list is not an array
03:06	hoeck	,(apply str '(\a \b \c))
03:06	clojurebot	"abc"
03:06	ihodes	that's true, but as i'm new to clojure, i wasn't sure if it'd correctly convert :\ was worth a try.
03:06	robink	Hello
03:07	hoeck	hi robink
03:07	ihodes	thanks hoek – that, again, makes sense. i need to get the right mindset here.
03:10	hoeck	ihodes: a list would work if the java.lang.String constructor allowed java collections of Chars
03:10	ihodes	ah ok, so I could, hypothetically, "convert" the collection to an array and then use String. that way?
03:10	ihodes	though, obviously, using apply makes more sense
03:14	_ato	,(String. (char-array [\a \b \c]))
03:14	clojurebot	"abc"
03:14	hoeck	,(String. (into-array Character/TYPE '(\a \b)))
03:14	clojurebot	"ab"
03:15	hoeck	char-array is new to me :)
03:25	ihodes	oh neat
03:28	ihodes	so if i have a list of string, is there a better way of making them into chars than (map seq '("a" "1" "3"))? that gives me a nasty list of lists deal
03:29	hoeck	ihodes: with mapcat you get one big list of all chars
03:29	_ato	,(mapcat seq ["a" "1" "3"]) ; as hoeck demoed above ;-)
03:29	clojurebot	(\a \1 \3)
03:30	ihodes	gah, so sorry. i need to get some sleep. thank you all so much–i'll idle around here in the fture so i can help future newbies and save you the trouble :)
03:31	hoeck	:)
03:32	LauJensen	Morning guys
03:38	defn	morning lau
03:41	zmila	good
03:42	defn	how to turn ({:x 1} {:x 2}) into [{:x 1} {:x 2}]
03:43	noidi	,(into [] (list {:x 1} {:x 2}))
03:43	clojurebot	[{:x 1} {:x 2}]
03:43	hiredman	(doc vec)
03:43	clojurebot	"([coll]); Creates a new vector containing the contents of coll."
03:44	defn	(doc vector)
03:44	clojurebot	"([] [& args]); Creates a new vector containing the args."
03:44	noidi	ah, right
03:44	defn	ah, that's where i went wrong
03:44	LauJensen	,(vec '({:x 1} {:y 2}))
03:44	clojurebot	[{:x 1} {:y 2}]
03:45	defn	(vector '({:x 1}))
03:45	LauJensen	Would be considered more idiomatic
03:45	defn	,(vector '({:x 1}))
03:45	clojurebot	[({:x 1})]
03:45	defn	,(vec '({:x 1}))
03:45	clojurebot	[{:x 1}]
04:10	defn	anyone familiar with incanter?
04:10	defn	im trying to build a histogram using [{:x 1} {:y 2} {:z 3}]
04:12	defn	(doto (incanter.charts/histogram (keys (above-structure)) :legend true) view (incanter.charts/add-histogram (vals (above-structure))))
04:14	Chousuke	is the histogram object mutable? :/
04:15	defn	im just going off of the example here
04:41	Licenser	defn: greetings, I'll have to run for work in a few but I'll fix the walton thing today
04:43	mitkok	Hey, guys. Just installed swank-clojure from ELPA, but when I run slime on clj file it fires the repl with error : https://gist.github.com/5f1f24a67550ca0bb4c6
04:43	defn	Licenser: no worries
04:43	defn	Licenser: have you worked with incanter at all by chance?
04:45	Licenser	Nope never used it
04:45	_ato	mitkok: how are you runng slime? just M-x slime? take a look into ~/.swank-clojure -- you should have 3 jars: clojure, clojure-contrib and swank
04:46	defn	bah this is driving me nuts
04:47	mitkok	_ato: Yep, just 'slime'. I have those three under ~/.swank_clojure
04:50	_ato	hmm
04:51	_ato	mitkok: maybe try doing this from the command-line just to check it: java -cp "$HOME/.swank-clojure/*" clojure.main -e "(use 'swank.swank)(-main)"
04:51	Linnk	Hey guys, just started going through the Clojure reference to learn the language. Does #^ always designate a hashmap?
04:51	defn	Licenser: {} is a hash map
04:51	defn	err Linnk: {} is a hash map
04:51	Licenser	I was about to ask why you tell me that :P
04:52	Linnk	Hehe :P
04:52	defn	#^ is a type hint, Linnk
04:52	defn	(defn my-fn [#^String some-text] (println some-text))
04:53	Linnk	defn: Aha, that explains a lot
04:53	mitkok	_ato: I was $CLOJURE_EXT=~/.clojure ( there were my clojure jars ), but when I remove it gives me the same error as executing your command: https://gist.github.com/b755bae0059c4d44db12
04:55	Licenser	#^ is helpfull if you need performance in java interop
04:55	Licenser	it makes it way faster ;) defn can sing a song about that I guess
04:56	_ato	mitmok: that's strange, so from the command-line it can't find the jars at all. What version are the jars you have in ~/.swank-clojure and what version of java do you have?
04:56	_ato	I have: % ls ~/.swank-clojure
04:56	_ato	clojure-1.1.0-master-20091202.150145-1.jar clojure-contrib-1.1.0-master-20091212.205045-1.jar swank-clojure-1.1.0.jar
04:57	mitkok	_ato: the same as you, java version "1.6.0_18"
04:57	mitkok	_ato: may be I need to set path or classpath or something, I\m pretty new
04:58	_ato	you normally shouldn't need to add any configuration to emacs
04:58	_ato	and that java command I asked you to run should have worked
04:58	_ato	hmmm
05:04	defn	weird -- Incanter doesnt show anything in the frames it creates
05:05	_ato	mitkok: 'fraid I'm out of ideas. Unless perhaps you've got some corrupt jars. http://gist.github.com/343335
05:05	_ato	I guess you could try deleting ~/.swank-clojure and rerunning M-x slime so it downloads them again
05:09	mitkok	_ato: I've deleted the dir and the reinstall it from emacs, same error :(
05:10	_mst	'java -jar ~/.swank-clojure/clojure-1.1.0-master-20091202.150145-1.jar' might be good for a giggle too
05:12	defn	man this is weird
05:12	defn	incanter just refuses to produce any image in the frame it creates
05:12	mitkok	_mst: Invalid or corrupt jarfile clojure...
05:14	_mst	ah hah! interesting :) what does 'file ~/.swank-clojure/clojure-1.1.0-master-20091202.150145-1.jar' think it is?
05:16	mitkok	_mst: Zip archive data, at least v1.0 to extract
05:17	_ato	truncated maybe?
05:17	_mst	hm, so there's at least a zip file header there :)
05:17	_mst	yeah, I wonder
05:18	_mst	does 'jar tvf ~/.swank-clojure/clojure-1.1.0-master-20091202.150145-1.jar' report any errors?
05:19	mitkok	_mst: java.util.zip.ZipException: invalid END header (bad central directory offset)
05:19	_mst	ah, yick :) so it does look like those .jar files are corrupt
05:20	_ato	perhaps delete them and download manually: wget http://build.clojure.org/releases/org/clojure/clojure/1.1.0/clojure-1.1.0.jar http://build.clojure.org/releases/org/clojure/clojure-contrib/1.1.0/clojure-contrib-1.1.0.jar http://clojars.org/repo/swank-clojure/swank-clojure/1.1.0/swank-clojure-1.1.0.jar
05:22	mitkok	at last, it's working :)
05:23	mitkok	thanks _mst and _ato :)
05:23	_mst	huzzah
05:23	_ato	:)
05:25	defn	uh oh
05:27	esj	indeed !
05:52	licoresse	Can I undefine something in the repl?
05:56	hoeck	licoresse: (ns-unmap (find-ns 'the-namespace) 'the-symbol)
05:56	Chousuke	ns-unmap can help
05:57	hoeck	or (ns-unmap ns 'blah)
05:57	licoresse	great
06:34	bb_oz	so - anyone else new to clojure?
06:36	zmila	me new :)
06:36	zmila	relatively
06:37	bb_oz	why clojure?
06:39	underdev	power, sumplicity, java integration
06:39	zmila	"why" for whom? for me or for you?
06:39	underdev	simplicity
06:40	bb_oz	sorry - 'why' for you
06:40	bb_oz	simplicity is one. STM is another
06:40	Linnk	<- barely started, so kinda' new
06:42	cypher23	bb_oz, Power, Flexibility, Concurrency
06:42	marten	for me, because i wanted something functional, and lisp is a mess with way to many implementations, and haskell is too impractical with its purity
06:42	marten	s/lisp/common lisp/
06:45	bb_oz	@marten: lisp. Had been toying with sbcl and ccl for a while. beautiful.
06:53	bb_oz	I was actually hopeful about abcl, but was unsure about the java 'match'
06:54	underdev	you just can't beat clojure's integration
06:55	bb_oz	it certainly appears to be that way. I'll shed a tear for CL though :)
06:57	underdev	its hard to compare a language spec designed in the 80s with one in the late 2ks
06:58	underdev	must have been the 80s, because i first used allegro CL in 91
07:01	bb_oz	lisp language spec is much older than the 80's
07:01	bb_oz	and clojure is a lisp-1 :)
07:04	Chousuke	Sometimes it feels like the fact that lisp is standardised is holding it back
07:04	Chousuke	CL, I mean
07:05	underdev	yeah, 1956 i believe
07:05	underdev	i meant CL
07:06	bb_oz	@underdev: ah ok - sorry :)
07:06	Chousuke	the standard is missing many things that are needed in a modern language, and then those things are implemented differently between implementations, which is counterproductive.
07:06	underdev	well, you could almost feel the lightbulbs going off in the crowd when rich was doing the "Clojure for lisp programmers" talk when he was discussing programming to abstract sequences instead of reified lists
07:07	bb_oz	@chousuke: clojure should see a lot more development. There's a few books out there as well.
07:07	Chousuke	bb_oz: Clojure's still fairly young as programming languages go, though.
07:12	underdev	my only reservation coming to clojure was that there is so much syntatic sugar (i've spent a decade in tcl, where there is exactly one grain of it). I thought i would be avoiding it, but it turns out i like it.
07:12	underdev	usually
07:13	underdev	i've seen a few functions that look "write only" to me, but very few
07:13	Chousuke	I really don't see most things in clojure as syntactic sugar anymore :P
07:13	bb_oz	so what are you using clojure for in your profession?
07:14	Chousuke	#() is, though.
07:14	Chousuke	but the syntax for vectors and maps isn't sugar, it's necessary.
07:14	underdev	to a tcl programmer '() is syntactic sugar :)
07:14	Linnk	#^{} is weird too, for a beginner :)
07:15	Chousuke	Linnk: that's kind of required too. there's no other way to attach read-time metadata to symbols
07:15	underdev	(list 1 2 3) (vector 1 2 3) (map :foo "bar")
07:15	underdev	not necessary
07:15	Chousuke	underdev: those are not equivalent to the [] versions
07:16	Chousuke	you can't do (defn foo (vector a b c) ...)
07:16	underdev	oic. like i said, i thought i wouldn't like it, but i do, and use them
07:16	underdev	:)
07:16	Chousuke	you'd need (defn foo #=(vector 'a 'b 'c) ...) :P
07:17	underdev	one could conceive of a clojure in which they aren't necessary, at least :)
07:17	Chousuke	hm, probably without quotes though. I forget it's the reader
07:17	Linnk	Chousuke: probably right, but it's not very verbose (not implying that verbosity is a good thing), so it took me some time to understand what it actually meant
07:17	Chousuke	underdev: well, yes. But I like having more syntax elements than just lists :)
07:18	Chousuke	underdev: it allows you to write more expressive macros for oen
07:18	Chousuke	one*
07:18	underdev	rt. i didn't think i would, but i do too
07:19	underdev	i love the time i spent programming in perl, but it scared my psyche somehow
07:19	underdev	HOMOGENY! GIVE ME HOMOGENY!!!
07:19	spariev	lol :)
07:19	Chousuke	the simplicity of having just lists is appealing, I admit, but the pragmatic benefits of vectors and maps as part of syntax outweighs giving up that simplicity.
07:20	underdev	Chousuke: agreed
07:20	zmila	missing one more brace-type for sets :) maybe <:a :b :c> instead of #{:a :b :c}
07:21	Chousuke	zmila: nah, those need to stay as symbol characters because of > and <
07:21	Chousuke	and others
07:22	bb_oz	goodnight people
07:32	dmiles_afk	i been imlmenting a full common lisp in java.. unlike ABCL i dont use java object ypes... i use interfaces...
07:32	underdev	neat! so what do YOU think of clojure?
07:32	dmiles_afk	my hope is sometimes i can go thru clojures code and add this LispString LispSequence interfaces to clojures objects
07:33	dmiles_afk	well i like its invokation syntax
07:33	dmiles_afk	well i love its invokation syntax
07:34	dmiles_afk	and the lack of extra work arround using any pre-existing libraries/jarts
07:34	dmiles_afk	jars
07:34	dmiles_afk	i actually for a bigish secondlife project use clojures intial prototype
07:35	underdev	cool.
07:35	dmiles_afk	so i love it.. but i also like common lisp.. i want both
07:35	dmiles_afk	i still have a learning curve to leverage certain concurrency features
07:36	dmiles_afk	what are these thnigns called?
07:37	underdev	rt
07:38	Chousuke	dmiles_afk: what things?
07:38	Chousuke	you mean the reference types?
07:38	Licenser_	defn: I think I fixed the no result problem
07:38	dmiles_afk	sorry other people in house talking to me.. looking it up
07:39	underdev	Chousuke: i think he was saying..
07:39	underdev	nm
07:40	dmiles_afk	Refs and Transactions
07:40	underdev	i thought he was trying to say its somewhat hard to pick which reference type and why. not hard, just keeping them sorted out. Haven't needed clojures concurrancy yet
07:41	dmiles_afk	All reads of Refs will see a consistent snapshot of the 'Ref world' as of the starting point of the transaction (its 'read point'). The transaction will see any changes it has made. This is called the in-transaction-value.
07:41	dmiles_afk	all tht stuff.. i havent epxored it yet ;)
07:41	dmiles_afk	but they must be usefull!
07:41	dmiles_afk	when someone says refernce types my mind goes : Class<Object>
07:41	dmiles_afk	non pimtives
07:43	Chousuke	dmiles_afk: there are other reference types besides refs :)
07:44	dmiles_afk	oh but what i meant is using ibteraces is adding http://larkc.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/larkc/branches/LarKC_CommonLisp_Extensions/platform/src/com/cyc/tool/subl/jrtl/nativeCode/type/core/LispObject.java?revision=458&view=markup to clojures holder objects
07:44	Chousuke	they all have differing concurrency semantics
07:44	dmiles_afk	ibteraces/interfaces
07:44	Chousuke	eep. SVN ;(
07:44	Chousuke	do yourself a favour and learn git :)
07:44	Chousuke	or any DVCS, really.
07:44	dmiles_afk	i work from Murcurial.. but LarKC is the downstream
07:45	underdev	in my current project i finally came up with a workable architecture, where various expert systems with varying degrees of information with be in contention with one another, with observers determining which systems make the better choices... i think i'm going to be needed all that cool concurrancy stuff pretty soon
07:45	Chousuke	ah, right.
07:45	zmila	let's start rel-war about hg-git vs svn :)
07:46	dmiles_afk	http://code.google.com/r/logicmoo-invoke-interface/source/browse/src/com/cyc/tool/subl/jrtl/nativeCode/type/core/LispObject.java?r=78adc38de481044a64f2bbc85b2ef6f62cccb1f1
07:46	dmiles_afk	ok DCVS :)
07:46	underdev	zmila: you mrsn hg vs svn-git, right ?
07:46	underdev	:)
07:46	Chousuke	zmila: I can think of one scenario where svn ends up being better than git, and that's when you want to store binary files in version control
07:47	dmiles_afk	oh but the cool part is the common lisp compiler targets anyhting that implments that interface
07:48	vy	xk
07:48	dmiles_afk	but there are a ton of helpers to make it easy
07:48	zmila	yes, git and hg and distributed is ok. but when you are in project whith 30 other people skilled only with svn...
07:48	dmiles_afk	i mean helper classes so clojure doesnt have to implment all 253 methods for each of its datatype ;)
07:48	Chousuke	that's a heavy interface :\|
07:49	dmiles_afk	hehe i realized that after i showed it
07:49	Chousuke	I suppose it approaches the same as Clojure's interfaces, but I don't see why it's all in one
07:49	dmiles_afk	most are supposed to return a classcast excetiom like toStr()
07:50	dmiles_afk	toNumber() etc
07:50	dmiles_afk	so like intValue() is coded as toNumber().intValue()
07:50	Chousuke	Clojure's interfaces are split up so that for example, to support being invoked as a function you only need to implement IFn
07:51	dmiles_afk	but most caller expect to hit intValur() in case you are already its right class
07:52	dmiles_afk	yeah.. that kind of need to be donewith this lisp.. that IFn thing is sane ;P
07:52	dmiles_afk	oh one more url for you Chousuke: http://code.google.com/r/logicmoo-invoke-interface/source/browse/src/com/cyc/tool/subl/jrtl/nativeCode/type/core/SubLObject.java?r=78adc38de481044a64f2bbc85b2ef6f62cccb1f1
07:52	dmiles_afk	that what it will look like when its done
07:53	dmiles_afk	(LispObject.ava that is will look more like SubLObject.java .. i know i know still heavy)
07:53	dmiles_afk	but more what you described
07:54	dmiles_afk	but clojure tightens it up even saner
07:54	Chousuke	There are probably reasons why the interfaces are so huge, but I can't think of any :P
07:55	dmiles_afk	to avoid casting.. the compiler already vetted the methodcalls will not throw a abstractimplmentationerror
07:55	dmiles_afk	which is still legal to emit classes that dont fully implment an interface
07:56	dmiles_afk	(yet creatable)
07:56	Chousuke	hmm
07:56	dmiles_afk	AbstractMethodError is throw i guess
07:56	Chousuke	Clojure has AFoo things to match IFoo, so you can derive from AFoo to get default implementations
07:57	Chousuke	and many of the interfaces actually extend the smaller interfaces, so I guess you do end up with a "huge" interface in the end
07:58	Chousuke	Hm, I wonder where that clojure interface graph chouser did is.
07:58	dmiles_afk	IFoo and IBar extends IObject but maybe IOjbect isnt as big
07:58	dmiles_afk	oh but IFoo + IObject is really what IFoo is
07:59	Chousuke	http://github.com/Chouser/clojure-classes/raw/master/graph-w-legend.png This is how it was at one point, but that's probably fairly out of date
08:00	dmiles_afk	not horrid .. just well loved
08:01	dmiles_afk	though StringSeq might be big
08:02	Chousuke	That graph will have to be updated when protocols start being used seriously though.
08:02	Chousuke	most of the interfaces will be replaced with protocols I think
08:02	dmiles_afk	oh diamonds not that big actualy
08:02	dmiles_afk	one protcol per interface
08:02	dmiles_afk	+?
08:02	clojurebot	5 (for large values of 2)
08:03	Chousuke	:P
08:03	dmiles_afk	or on protocal per method?
08:03	Chousuke	dmiles_afk: probably not exactly. The interfaces might get refactored in the process
08:03	Chousuke	dmiles_afk: protocols are basically a group of functions
08:03	dmiles_afk	on/one
08:04	dmiles_afk	do two protocals share the same functions sometimes?
08:04	Chousuke	eg. "Sequence" would be a protocol of first, rest at least
08:04	dmiles_afk	so it might overlap with COns protocol slightly
08:05	Chousuke	I think the idea is that you're not supposed to think of protocol fns as anything special
08:06	Chousuke	they're just normal functions; the protocol construct just allows efficiently implementing and extending them to work on numerous types
08:06	dmiles_afk	ok.. just becaue they share first() it dont mean that first() is some specific expected implmention
08:07	Chousuke	right. the interface is the clojure function "first". it might be part of a protocol, a multimethod, or a normal function. ideally you shouldn't need to care
08:07	dmiles_afk	makes sense. just like a java interface
08:08	Chousuke	protocols can be extended to work on types retroactively though
08:08	Chousuke	eg. Strings can implement a seq protocol like (extend java.lang.String PSeq {:seq somefn-that-returns-a-string-seq})
08:09	dmiles_afk	so can a text file of chars..
08:09	Chousuke	currently. there are many ifs in the java source to special-case seq to work on strings and other non-clojure types
08:09	dmiles_afk	so that means we can construct copy-to simpler?
08:10	Chousuke	protocols just allow that to be done without a mess of if-elseif-elseif...
08:10	dmiles_afk	i mnean to copy-from the string sequnce of the file that is a seq of chars
08:10	Chousuke	dmiles_afk: it wouldn't really change how seq works
08:10	Chousuke	dmiles_afk: just how it's implemented
08:11	dmiles_afk	i see.. so what you end up with is map of type<->method
08:11	dmiles_afk	(maps instead of ifthenelses)
08:11	Chousuke	kind of. with caching and other performance tricks
08:13	dmiles_afk	i hink lispers need o be able to do clojure inline to their code easier ;)
08:13	Chousuke	as a bonus, there's one fewer explicit dependency on the JVM.
08:13	dmiles_afk	hink
08:13	dmiles_afk	ttthink
08:13	dmiles_afk	good point about the dependancies
08:13	Chousuke	protocols could be implemented on various hosts in various ways
08:16	dmiles_afk	something i strive for sometimes is .NET.. actally .net provides "events" like VB6 used to
08:17	dmiles_afk	well basically subscriptions.. java has that.. its avaiblme
08:17	dmiles_afk	but just not used as pervasivly
08:17	Chousuke	you mean the delegate/event syntax?
08:18	dmiles_afk	yeah
08:18	dmiles_afk	in clojure i can set a field with a IFn?
08:18	dmiles_afk	and it calls my method when some event happens?
08:19	Chousuke	dmiles_afk: well, you don't set a field in Clojure usually.
08:19	Chousuke	dmiles_afk: because that's imperative
08:19	Chousuke	but the reference types do have a watcher mechanism
08:20	dmiles_afk	oh righ thtat unmodifiable as much as can get away with it
08:20	dmiles_afk	(more unmodifable now.. the faster it will be later)
08:21	Chousuke	hopefully :)
08:22	tomoj	does anyone happen to know the appropriate size for a video screencast to be put on vimeo?
08:22	dmiles_afk	sometimes the event delegate thing can be overdone. just like too much of anything
08:22	dmiles_afk	but it makes visualzing a solution for a problem easier at time
08:22	dmiles_afk	s
08:23	Chousuke	events are a bit problematic in functional programming though :/
08:23	tomoj	frp?
08:24	AWizzArd	Chousuke: can you please tell me a bit more about what you mean?
08:24	Chousuke	tomoj: yeah, that was my first thought. But I havne't quite been able to grok it. :P
08:25	Chousuke	AWizzArd: I think events are difficult to model functionally as they fundamentally have "time" associated with them.
08:25	tomoj	http://www.haskell.org/frp/publication.html#fruit
08:25	tomoj	reading that
08:28	noidi	tomoj, interesting, thanks for the link!
08:28	Chousuke	I get the basic idea of signal -> function -> other signal but what do you do about stateful UI things like modal windows that pop up as a result of a certain signal? :/
08:29	Chousuke	hmmhm
08:29	dmiles_afk	well event subcription.. is like when you modify how some object B implments a method.. when that object gets somethng called on it from A.. it then reacts by calling the evenets subscribers C... the event subscribers C effectivly changed how the orignal A implments itself
08:30	dmiles_afk	C subscribes to B
08:30	Chousuke	dmiles_afk: in an imperative language it's not a problem since you can just go and change thigns
08:31	Chousuke	dmiles_afk: but in a functional model you need to explicitly model the transformation somehow.
08:31	Chousuke	I suppose you can model it as a transformation of the graph of signal connections. new signal sources and connections appear and disappear as a result of other signals (open window, close window)
08:32	dmiles_afk	yeah .. though heck there is gotta be a clean way to model it functionally
08:33	tomoj	have you both read the paper?
08:33	tomoj	I just started
08:33	dmiles_afk	model the transformation.. i wonder if you have to model both states
08:33	dmiles_afk	or three states or four
08:33	Chousuke	dmiles_afk: well, Clojure already has a model for time-varying identities
08:33	Chousuke	dmiles_afk: though not purely functional
08:34	chouser	I'm jumping in late here, but have you looked at dgraph?
08:34	chouser	http://github.com/gcv/dgraph
08:35	dmiles_afk	or http://github.com/gcv/dgraph/blob/master/src/dgraph.clj
08:42	_invis	look what I found in Labrepl
08:42	_invis	(defn zipm-4
08:42	_invis	2 [keys vals]
08:42	_invis	3 (apply hash-map (interleave keys vals)))
08:42	_invis	Why apply here ?
08:43	_invis	we can define same function without it
08:43	chouser	that looks a lot like zipmap
08:43	Chousuke	_invis: because you don't want to use the seq as the parameter, you want to use the items in the seq as the parameters
08:44	Chousuke	_invis: thus you need apply
08:44	_invis	but result the same
08:44	Chousuke	huh? no it's not :/
08:45	Chousuke	,(hash-map '[a b])
08:45	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: [a b]
08:45	Chousuke	,(apply hash-map '[a b])
08:45	clojurebot	{a b}
08:45	_invis	,(hash-map (interleave [:a :b] [1 2]))
08:45	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: clojure.lang.LazySeq@1038a40f
08:45	_invis	emm
08:45	_invis	in my emacs it is work :)
08:46	Chousuke	it should not
08:46	_invis	(defn zipm-4
08:46	_invis	2 [keys vals]
08:46	_invis	3 (apply hash-map (interleave keys vals)))
08:46	Chousuke	you're probably doing something different
08:46	_invis	works
08:46	Chousuke	yes, that's fine
08:46	_invis	fuq
08:46	Chousuke	it has apply
08:46	_invis	I mean without apply
08:46	_invis	(defn zipm-4
08:46	_invis	[keys vals]
08:46	_invis	(hash-map (interleave keys vals)))
08:46	Chousuke	that will fail
08:47	Chousuke	if it appears to work, there's something else wrong
08:47	Chousuke	are you sure you evaluated it?
08:47	_invis	ohh yep
08:47	_invis	my fail :(
08:47	_invis	I used zipm-3... :)
08:47	_invis	that have the same effect
08:50	defn	added support for associative destrucuring for seqs by pouring them into a
08:50	defn	map first, thus supporting associative destruring of & args
08:50	defn	cool
08:55	_invis	why zipmap looks like http://gist.github.com/343522
08:56	_invis	(defn zipmap
08:56	_invis	[keys vals]
08:56	_invis	(into {} (map vector keys vals)))
08:56	_invis	Is second better ?
08:56	_invis	and simpler
08:56	Licenser_	defn: I'll push a new walton in a few
08:56	defn	Licenser_: you do too much!
08:57	Licenser_	defn: :P
08:57	defn	Licenser_: what piece of code that you added slowed things down considerably, out of curiosity?
08:57	defn	is it the evaluation of code in the sandbox?
08:57	Licenser_	I think the extract-exps thing is the evil doer, bit it gives better results
08:58	Licenser_	http://playground.licenser.net:3000/walton.html
08:58	Licenser_	when you run nit as a service you can just use some kind of cache foir all exps found which will make stuff a lot faster again
08:58	chouser	_invis: yours is certanly simpler, but it also allocates a vector and lazy-seq for every pair, where core's version does not.
08:59	rhickey	name game again...
09:00	rhickey	so, using mixins for getting a full implementation of map is tricky and complicated, I think now the simplest thing will be for there to be a deftype based defstruct replacement that does that
09:00	rhickey	deftype would only provide hash+equals
09:00	chouser	_invis: on the other hand 'into' uses transients while core's zipmap does not (yet)
09:01	chouser	rhickey: deftype wouldn't do ILookup?
09:01	rhickey	nope
09:01	defn	Licenser_: ah yes, I didn't consider just finding the entire sequence of real expressions
09:01	rhickey	def___ would do full defstruct-style map impl
09:02	Licenser_	:)
09:02	rhickey	plus gives you named type and ability to implement protocols etc
09:02	defn	Licenser_: I must say that part of me is okay with results which don't run in the sandbox
09:02	rhickey	deftypedmap?
09:02	defn	particularly IO functions
09:02	_invis	chouser: so the core's variant if badly ?
09:02	rhickey	defmap?
09:02	rhickey	defstruct2-the-revenge?
09:02	AWizzArd	oh that sounds interesting!
09:02	Licenser_	defn: with the last update it shows you everything it found when it can't poass it through the sandbox
09:02	chouser	"map" is pretty overloaded already
09:03	defn	Licenser_: ah, cool!
09:03	rhickey	I'd love to just replace defstruct, but it does a few things that would be difficult to replace
09:03	AWizzArd	rhickey: what such a defmap allow better/automatic error detection?
09:03	AWizzArd	what ==> would
09:03	rhickey	AWizzArd: what error detection?
09:03	AWizzArd	ok ;)
09:03	defn	Licenser_: how goes clicki?
09:03	Licenser_	defn: pushed
09:03	Licenser_	quite well
09:03	chouser	yeah, struct is a good name
09:03	defn	Licenser_: do you intend to keep up this pace with clojure indefinitely?
09:04	defn	you seem like you've been really digging in, in the last week or two
09:04	Licenser_	I love clojure
09:05	defn	yeah it's really a fantastic language -- speaking of which...
09:05	defn	Anyone have any suggestions on "selling" clojure to management?
09:05	chouser	"typed struct"?
09:05	Licenser_	defn: I know it will be slower again at some point
09:05	chouser	deftstruct
09:05	Licenser_	defn: I don't seel it, I just use it :P
09:05	defn	Licenser_: My goal is to build this particular tool for work so well, and make it so fast, that they cannot turn it down
09:06	defn	however, I think there still might be a manager or two who is scared of it
09:06	raek	defrecord
09:06	rhickey	chouser: wow, that's subtle, I can hardly see that t
09:06	Licenser_	rhickey: by the way. thumbs up again for this nice languae
09:06	defn	rhickey: yes I didn't see it either
09:07	rhickey	although they would be deft
09:07	defn	haha
09:07	chouser	could go the other way. deftypeds
09:07	defn	daftstruct
09:08	bsteuber	I like deft :)
09:09	hoeck	deftype*
09:09	Licenser_	defn: cool :)
09:09	Licenser_	what tool do you plan to build if I may ask?
09:09	rhickey	Licenser_: thanks!
09:10	chouser	deftypedmap
09:11	Licenser_	rhickey: thank you
09:11	Licenser_	:)
09:11	cgrand	defmaptype
09:11	hoeck	defr, defs, defp
09:11	lpetit	please, a synthesis on what exact beast is about to get a name ?
09:11	rhickey	I'd like to avoid "record"
09:12	lpetit	I don't understand the difference from plain usage of deftype
09:12	rhickey	lpetit: moving map impl capability into a deftype based macro, rather than the magic now in deftype
09:12	chouser	lpetit: essentially what deftype is now if you specify IPersistentMap but don't implement it
09:12	raek	record seems to be a rather unused synonym for struct
09:12	raek	defrecord would be a simple, pronounceable name
09:13	Licenser_	ls- l
09:13	fogus	rhickey: you mean avoiding the whole (deftype foo IPersistentMap ...)?
09:13	defn	. .. bin/ lib/ src/
09:13	fogus	ah nevermind... I see
09:13	rhickey	fogus: yes
09:13	lpetit	rhickey: a kind of macro inheritence :-)
09:14	hoeck	deftype* for the limited deftype, and deftype for the one implementing IPersistentMap
09:14	rhickey	lpetit: not really, just like def* on def etc
09:14	defn	hoeck: i dont like that
09:14	defn	too confusing IMO
09:14	defn	not as pronounceable either
09:14	rhickey	defmap
09:14	defn	rhickey: i like that
09:15	rhickey	deftypedmap is most descriptive, but long
09:15	lpetit	rhickey: (was joking for macro inheritence). Aren't there really 2 aspects to the problem : the implementation was "magic", ok. But should the "end user" of deftype really bother having 2 different defxxx ? Or could it still be an option of deftype ?
09:15	rhickey	I like including map, since the whole point is to get a map-like object for data
09:16	rhickey	lpetit: it ends up option for deftype is more complex to specify and use
09:16	cemerick	so many "map" things... :-/
09:16	fogus	defmappything, defprototype, defstructure, defbasemap ... I stink at naming
09:16	rhickey	cemerick: but this is a map thing
09:16	lpetit	rhickey: could one still do anything he could with deftype, or would some restrictions also come with "defmap" ?
09:17	rhickey	lpetit: deftype would only provide hash/=, everything else on the user
09:17	rhickey	no magic impls
09:17	defn	deform?
09:17	lpetit	ok
09:17	chouser	deftype would still get some kind of mixin feature?
09:18	rhickey	chouser: maybe, but doing this first will get the magic out of the way and pave the way for a release
09:18	lpetit	and "defmap" would be an out-of-the-box map-like type maker ?
09:18	cemerick	rhickey: {} are maps, so are struct-maps. defmap, should it exist, implies a superset relation to all other maps. shrug
09:18	cemerick	of course, it's a totally different thing.
09:18	chouser	I quite like "typed map" as a concept name, even if deftypemap is too long
09:18	rhickey	I've done a bunch of work on mixins, a fundamental challenge is that in order to fully implement map etc for someone, you need to be able to construct instances, communicating everything needed to the mixin in order to do that is a huge complexity
09:18	cemerick	deftmap is no good?
09:19	rhickey	whereas most abstrct impls never need to do that, basing everthing instead on one or two methods left to derivee
09:20	rhickey	but that would make the defstruct-like case one of mixing in and providing some core fns, begging for a detmap macro anyway
09:20	rhickey	defmap
09:20	rhickey	cemerick: I don't see that implication
09:21	lpetit	"defmap" : map in the "type" sense, or in the "instance" sense. The name is confusing, I guess
09:21	rhickey	cemerick: huh, deftmap is surprisingly more readable than deftstruct
09:21	lpetit	defmaptype
09:21	defn	i like deftmap
09:21	lpetit	-1 for deftmap
09:22	defn	hey you can't do that!
09:22	chouser	lpetit: hm, good point. It is defining a type not an instance.
09:22	lpetit	how often will one use "defmap" / "deftypedmap" etc. ? No that often, so let's the name maybe be a bit self-explanatory, he ?
09:22	defn	lpetit: you could stil think of it as "define a type of map"
09:22	AWizzArd	defmaptype could also be an alternative
09:23	chouser	nearly every mature codebase will use this thing
09:23	lpetit	defn: that is a lot of implicit meaning on the letter t :-)
09:23	cemerick	chouser: but how many times? lpetit's got a point. def-typed-struct then. :-P
09:23	AWizzArd	I use it often.
09:24	djpowell	So what will the difference between reify, and slimmed down deftype be?
09:24	lpetit	Let's think a little bit about others willing to create "type builders". The name we're trying to invent may well show the path to how name such "type builders"
09:24	AWizzArd	that is, deftype + IPersistentMap (without providing an implementation)
09:24	chouser	djpowell: deftype will still not create closures
09:24	lpetit	AWizzArd: which percentage of your codebase ? :)
09:25	AWizzArd	yeah sure, only a fraction, but I use it in lots of files
09:25	chouser	cemerick: yeah, I wouldn't fight that proposal at all.
09:25	cemerick	They've been semi-deprecated from the start, really.
09:25	rhickey	cemerick: I thought about magically interpreting the second arg to defstruct if a vector
09:25	rhickey	so compatible move
09:26	rhickey	but...
09:26	djpowell	so how will you access fields in the new deftype without ILookup?
09:26	rhickey	,(defstruct foo [] () {})
09:26	clojurebot	DENIED
09:26	AWizzArd	cemerick: what are "they"?
09:26	rhickey	,(foo)
09:26	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context
09:26	chouser	never used defstruct anyway, and I'm all about breaking other people's code.
09:26	cemerick	AWizzArd: structs
09:26	AWizzArd	I used defstruct very often, but no replaced virtually every occurrence with deftype.
09:27	rhickey	so (defstruct foo [a b c] ...) gets newness
09:27	bsteuber	so is there anything defstruct can do that can't be done with deftstruct?
09:27	cemerick	rhickey: I think that piece of naming real estate is too valuable for something like defstruct to occupy forever.
09:27	rhickey	bsteuber: yes, see above, defstruct can have arbitrary keys, runtime creation
09:27	cgrand	djpowell: (:foo x) but no (x :foo)
09:28	stuarthalloway	let defstruct be the comprehensive thing
09:28	defn	stuarthalloway: thanks for making labrepl free
09:28	stuarthalloway	r/defstruct/deftype
09:28	cemerick	stuarthalloway: structs really shouldn't provide implementations tho
09:29	cemerick	conceptually, I mean
09:29	stuarthalloway	and then name the primitive thing something that suggests its primitive/rawness
09:29	stuarthalloway	cemerick, sorry, meant deftype
09:29	rhickey	cemerick: really?
09:29	rhickey	cemerick: struct == no impls?
09:29	chouser	deftypedmap won't support arbitrary keys?
09:29	rhickey	but defstructs do implement a lot
09:29	stuarthalloway	please not deftypedmap. ick.
09:30	rhickey	chouser: yes it will, full expando
09:30	cemerick	rhickey: no, I mean user-provided impls. Should conceptually just be a bag of slots.
09:30	chouser	ok, then I misunderstood "defstruct can have arbitrary keys"
09:30	stuarthalloway	defmap w/b better (sorry late to the conversation, know I am retreading ground here)
09:30	AWizzArd	yes, what does that mean? Arbitrary keys?
09:30	rhickey	cemerick: hmm, well that rules out its use here, as this new thing will allow impls
09:31	lpetit	I vote for cgrand's proposal. We're talking about a flavor of deftype. Let's call it defmaptype. Or prune defstruct, long live new defstruct ! :-)
09:31	rhickey	does anyone else agree with cemerick that struct implies no impls?
09:31	stuarthalloway	yes
09:31	stuarthalloway	(I am now everyone)
09:32	djpowell	i would assume that
09:32	cemerick	rhickey: I'm having trouble reconstituting the context now. Can you restate the objectives, moving pieces?
09:32	chouser	no
09:32	chouser	C++ structs can have implementations.
09:32	stuarthalloway	argument by appeal to C++? Isn't that a category of fallacy? :-)
09:32	chouser	what etymology of "struct" rules it out?
09:32	cemerick	chouser: then by all means... groan ;-)
09:33	rhickey	this new thing will be a deftype with full map impl - meta, expando keys, etc, while retaining deftype's ability to implement protocols and interfaces
09:33	stuarthalloway	defawesome
09:33	chouser	ha!
09:33	chouser	rhickey: Will it come with IFn for lookup?
09:34	cemerick	rhickey: ah, so a simplification avoiding IPersistentMap explicitness.
09:34	raek	I believe struct/record implies map-like-thingy with fixed set of keys, too
09:34	rhickey	chouser: yes, everything that destructs have (except maybe the k/v factory) + a type
09:34	Chousuke	I think there will soon be too many defblahs :P
09:34	AWizzArd	And if one would not add key/value pairs at runtime of keys that were not specified in the definition, would it retain deftypes access speed?
09:34	rhickey	cemerick: yes, that's the prime objective - magic removal
09:34	defn	i dont like pruning defstruct
09:35	rhickey	one use case for defstruct remaining is resultset-seq and its ilk
09:35	lpetit	rhickey: sorry to repeat myself, but "a deftype with full map impl" == "defmaptype" :)
09:35	stuarthalloway	people will learn what it is, so I would rather have a short, pronounceable name
09:35	djpowell	id love a resultset-seq that returned deftype things
09:35	rhickey	lpetit: defmaptype is still a candidate, but it seems no one likes it or anything else much, yet
09:36	rhickey	djpowell: that would require eval and runtime code gen
09:36	lpetit	grmlml
09:36	djpowell	ah yeah
09:36	raek	I agree with stuarthalloway, pronounceability is a big deal
09:36	defn	rhickey: im not averse to defmaptype, but i agree with stuart that it'd be nice if it were more pronounceable and quick to talk about, defmaptype brings to mind three different concepts
09:36	defn	all of which apply, but dont capture the "essence" IMO
09:37	AWizzArd	I suggested defmaptype and would not find anything bad about typing in these few letters 'type'. No productivity stopper.
09:37	defn	im going back to deftmap
09:37	rhickey	I think that it is important not to disturb defstruct needlessly, and that something with mapo in it is more indicative of what is happening that defstruct was - defstruct only made sense once you read that it produced struct-maps
09:37	Chousuke	please, no :P
09:37	Chousuke	arbitrary abbreviation is just not cool
09:38	AWizzArd	deftmap is not my favourite
09:38	defn	deftmap has my voice -- it's memorable, unique
09:38	lpetit	let's do it piece by piece
09:38	defn	vote*
09:38	lpetit	we all agree on a "def" prefix :-p
09:38	cgrand	going latin: defres
09:38	AWizzArd	I would say it should also include "map"
09:39	AWizzArd	or struct or record
09:39	chouser	I think my favorite is to replace defstruct. But if not that, defmaptype -- when you call the ctor you get a "typed map"
09:39	marten	cgrand: defres sounds more like it defines a result or something
09:39	defn	defrec
09:39	cemerick	chouser: +1
09:39	cemerick	I'm still very wobbly on the notion of structs having user-defined impls tho.
09:40	AWizzArd	Yes, I would also say: 1) defmaptype, 2) defstruct, 3) defmap, 4) deftypedmap
09:40	cemerick	That's a class, or a type, but not a struct.
09:40	chouser	just because C++ does it, doesn't mean its wrong. :-)
09:40	defn	haha ive been thinking that this whole time!
09:40	defn	i thought i might be the only one
09:40	djpowell	does map really capture the key/value pairness of it. something like props or something?
09:40	cemerick	chouser: no, but in my head, class < type < struct
09:41	cemerick	w.r.t. complexity / "completeness" of implementation
09:41	rhickey	huh
09:41	AWizzArd	or.. defclass
09:41	cemerick	shite. class > type > struct, I mean
09:41	cgrand	I agree with chouser's motion: destruct or else defmaptype
09:41	defn	defmaptype then for me
09:42	chouser	"class" is bad for this. Hosts will already have the name "class" and we'd do best to let them have it.
09:42	defn	but going back to what stuart mentioned, it's just not very, i dont know, something just doesnt fit about it for me
09:42	rhickey	well, if we are saying that types get these dynamic names, and can implement protocols+interfaces, this is plainly more than struct was, and you'll just be explaining destruct as creating a mao-like type
09:42	AWizzArd	chouser: agreed
09:42	rhickey	map-like
09:42	rhickey	so, keeping type in there is good
09:43	chouser	defstructtype :-/
09:43	AWizzArd	uh ;)
09:43	defn	deftap
09:43	cemerick	chouser: yeah, I wasn't suggesting 'class' for anything.
09:43	AWizzArd	cemerick: i suggested "defclass", but also don't really like it
09:43	djpowell	defmaptype doesn't seem bad. it's got arbitrary slots (map) and is typed (for protocols).
09:44	defn	are there any other def*s which are as long as defmaptype?
09:44	rhickey	what about Stu's idea that this gets the simpler name - deftype, and the primitive one gets another name
09:44	cemerick	defprotomap? :-/
09:44	chouser	Are hash-map and array-map exampels of map types?
09:44	defn	it just seems overly descriptive to me "defmaptype"
09:44	AWizzArd	I just hope that the main thing I need to do will be: rename (nearly) all my deftypes with defmaptype and remove the IPersistentMap and be done :)
09:45	rhickey	chouser: sort of
09:45	chouser	well, they are types of map, but not maptypes. :-/
09:45	AWizzArd	defn: is it bad to have a self documenting name?
09:45	defn	rhickey: im on board with stuart
09:45	cemerick	rhickey: everything we're talking about will respond true to (map? ...)?
09:45	defn	AWizzArd: no i just think it is actually somewhat confusing in that it is overly descriptive
09:45	marten	+1 for defmaptype
09:45	chouser	I'm ok with stuart's idea, we just need the simpler-thing name. defsimpletype ?
09:46	chouser	defcoretype
09:46	chouser	defminitype
09:46	defn	beating a dead horse... deftmap
09:46	marten	i don't really like deftmap in that i'd like to keep "type" in full in there
09:47	Chousuke	t is just arbitrarily abbreviated
09:47	djpowell	are these going to probably be the core thing that people will mostly use for modelling, and the minimal ones will be mostly used for implementing bits of clojure and stuff? If so, then maybe deftype would be snappier for the expando ones
09:47	lpetit	defrawtyp
09:47	defn	Chousuke: and def isn't?
09:47	lpetit	defrawtype
09:47	Chousuke	defn: no, it's not.
09:47	defn	defn isn't?
09:47	AWizzArd	is defrawtyp really much better that defmaptype?
09:47	Chousuke	defn: nope :)
09:47	chouser	AWizzArd: it's for the other thing.
09:47	cemerick	Might be time to put a page on assembla with descriptions of the different fns. The simpler/primitive/core concepts have gotten twisted.
09:47	stuarthalloway	yes, because it is on the less-often used thing
09:47	cemerick	rhickey: ^^
09:47	Chousuke	defn: those are "fundamental" IMO.
09:47	esj	a struct and a map - > defstrap. Just kidding.
09:47	Chousuke	defn: the t in deftmap is just weird.
09:48	stuarthalloway	+1 to djpowell
09:48	defn	Chousuke: it's two pronounceable english words
09:48	cemerick	Chousuke: you can blame me for that idea :-/
09:49	raek	defrecord, anyone?
09:49	rhickey	cemerick: I don't see how, deftype makes a raw type with hash/=, and you can implement protocols and interfaces with it, the new thing will implement a full persistent map
09:49	defn	raek: would you settle for a defrec?
09:49	lpetit	chouser: me too am not "at home" with the dichotomy between what could be viewed as "technical types" (e.g. hash-map, array-map, linkedhashmap), and "domain types"
09:49	rhickey	raek: I'd rather not add another term
09:50	AWizzArd	defrec / defrecord are possible, but so far Clojure never had "records"
09:50	AWizzArd	Is an instance of a defrecord a record?
09:50	rhickey	defbasetype
09:50	Chousuke	rhickey: I assume you want to encourage user-defined types to be map-compatible?
09:50	raek	defn: I generally don't like abbreviations, but maybe, yes
09:50	stuarthalloway	the base thing should have a simple name: defraw? deft?
09:50	rhickey	Chousuke: I want to encourage types used for data to be maps, yes
09:50	stuarthalloway	deft is actually kinda cool
09:50	Chousuke	rhickey: I think in that case deftype and deftype* would be okay.
09:50	defn	deft is more than cool
09:50	defn	it's awesome
09:51	Chousuke	rhickey: deftype would be the default, and deftype* for those who know what they want. :P
09:51	rhickey	types used for things like e.g. data structures and the reference types
09:51	stuarthalloway	deft is my favorite, deftype/deftype* is ok too
09:51	defn	deft is annoying in that it's so obvious IMO
09:51	rhickey	deft + deftype - too cute?
09:51	defn	rhickey: no, i love it
09:52	hoeck	deft is nice, quite short and fundamental, like defn
09:52	AWizzArd	would one of those be like the current deftype?
09:52	defn	hoeck: are you referring to me or the macro? :)
09:52	rhickey	AWizzArd: nothing is like the current deftype
09:52	defn	are you calling me short and fundamental?
09:52	rhickey	base and base+map
09:52	stuarthalloway	deft is base
09:52	Chousuke	deft looks like an abbreviation of deftype though... it might not be immediately obvious that they are variants of the same thing :/
09:52	stuarthalloway	deftype is base+map+etc.
09:53	seths	defn: you're just a macro which expands to def
09:53	defn	Chousuke: i disagree -- it seems pretty obvious to me
09:53	Chousuke	hm, if it's that way around it might make sense
09:53	defn	seths: that hurts, man. take it back.
09:53	hoeck	defn: short, fundamental and nice :)
09:53	raek	which one is the most used? base or base+map?
09:53	rhickey	when people see 'record' do they think more of data than they do with 'type'
09:53	AWizzArd	yes
09:53	underdev	stuarthalloway: been going through labrepl, all day yesterday, should be done today. very cool man!
09:53	stuarthalloway	underdev: thanks
09:53	defn	rhickey: yeah, i immediately think of a database
09:53	rhickey	for me, one crime of OO is when people wall up ordinary data in Employee etc classes
09:54	rhickey	making things maps makes them amenable to generic handling via the standard lib
09:54	bsteuber	maybe rename defstruct to defrecord and use its name
09:54	bsteuber	if the only normal case for old defstruct is databases
09:55	rhickey	OTOH, there's no reason for a Ref/Atom/PersistentVector implemented with deftype to have a map-like impl
09:55	lpetit	stuarthalloway: yeah, labprel is an amazing piece of work, both from the technical and the pedagocial sides
09:55	AWizzArd	rhickey: do you mean that in general data objects should be stored in maps instead of classes?
09:55	rhickey	how would you all categorize the difference between them and Employee?
09:55	stuarthalloway	lpetit: amazing is a bit strong, I'll settle for "useful" :-)
09:55	defn	rhickey: (inc labrepl)
09:55	defn	err sorry, not directed at you
09:55	lpetit	stuarthalloway: don't be so modest :-)
09:56	defn	stuarthalloway: is it possible to have tests run over and over again? or do you need to call script/test every time?
09:56	AWizzArd	I don’t understand that part of walling up ordinary data in classes such as “Employee”.
09:56	etate	how do you guys know which versions of libraries to use with others?
09:56	lpetit	stuarthalloway: the last piece of work is to have mini-repls right in the webapp, I guess :)
09:57	seths	lpetit: he can steal the code from http://lotrepls.appspot.com
09:57	stuarthalloway	domain entities should rarely be classes
09:57	rhickey	defentity
09:57	lpetit	stuarthalloway: with possibility to "reset" them so that you can work on a subject without having succesfully worked on the previous ones on which they are built
09:58	rhickey	definformationholderthingy
09:58	etate	as in even with leiningen you still need to specify the right versions of all libs you'll use in the dproject.clj
09:58	Chousuke	defdata :P
09:58	AWizzArd	I would slightly prefer defentity over definformationholderthingy
09:58	etate	so what am i missing?
09:58	etate	:D
09:58	AWizzArd	rhickey: could you say a few more things about this example of Employees storing data?
09:58	Chousuke	or the ultimate: "dwim"
09:59	defn	stuarthalloway: i realize you're very busy, but if you get a chance in the next couple weeks I would love to see a video + blog post about getting started on circumspec. I've been really interested in finding an autotest-like tool for clojure, and circumspec is as close as it gets
09:59	lpetit	did we switch subject, or is defentity ... related to deftype/deftype*/deft ?
10:00	stuarthalloway	deft is for the deft
10:01	stuarthalloway	defn: you can run the tests within the repl at any time. Just (use 'circumspec) (watch)
10:01	rhickey	lpetit: I'm trying to tease out the difference between types used as program entities (data structures, reference types etc) and types used as information holders. The latter should always use the map-like type. So, if that distinction works, then maybe there are names that imply the difference
10:01	stuarthalloway	defn: (1) I am hoping that Sierra will take circumpec's skin and put it over lazttest's guts, so I wouldn't do the tutorial yet
10:02	stuarthalloway	(2) let's talk Sean Devlin into doing the tutorial
10:02	seths	stuarthalloway: way to delegate :-)
10:02	rhickey	does anyone understand what I am talking about above?
10:02	stuarthalloway	rhickey: warming to the distinction
10:03	cemerick	rhickey: when you separate reference types from "information holders", not really.
10:03	rhickey	one reason Clojure wen out without objects is bacuase I wanted everyone to put their information in maps
10:03	underdev	rhickey: as the leader of our cult, we'll accept it by faith
10:03	lpetit	rhickey: I think I do
10:03	rhickey	your app has some structures associated with the implementation, and some with the information
10:03	stuarthalloway	use defentity to build concretions, and deftype to build abstractions
10:03	rhickey	a vector is the former, an Employee is the latter
10:04	stuarthalloway	and now, with my preferred names:
10:04	stuarthalloway	deft is used to build abstractions, like vectors
10:04	lpetit	rhickey: defentity seems too "oriented" to me. To specific. deftype would see more "evident" business app usage
10:04	stuarthalloway	deftype is used to build concretions, like Employees
10:04	rhickey	forget defentity
10:04	fogus	defknowledge
10:05	defn	stuarthalloway: im on board with you 100%
10:05	defn	i dont think ive disagreed with a single thing you've said thus far actually, heh
10:05	rhickey	fogus: it's more raw than knowledge
10:05	cemerick	My conceptualization is that I have structs (simple, expandable maps), types (maps that have some callable impls attached), and references (such as atoms, which can hold structs and types). Mix fns that operate over all of them.
10:06	stuarthalloway	separate but related issue: we need to tell the concretion/abstraction story, which this may help us do
10:06	rhickey	cemerick: what would you use to implement PersistentVector?
10:06	cemerick	ah, now I see where you're coming from
10:07	cemerick	rhickey: what I'm calling types, minus the map impl, plus fields.
10:07	rhickey	cemerick: that's not distinct enough in my mind
10:08	rhickey	stu is making the point here that the base thing is for library devs, and thus confusing for app devs who normally just find that already there, but library devs need lang support too
10:08	rhickey	the latter my point
10:09	defn	im not sure i follow rhickey
10:09	Chousuke	I think I would like defrecord for plain data + map interface, deftype for the "lower" level. but then defstruct becomes obsolete
10:09	defn	specifically the "and thus confusing for app devs who normally just find that already there"
10:09	cemerick	rhickey: It seems like the array of options one might want (map impl or no, fields or no, impls or no) points towards having a single configurable entry point.
10:10	rhickey	vector/map/atom/String etc are programming construct, Employee, Roster, SalesReport etc are domain data entities
10:10	rhickey	cemerick: you're trapped in implementation details, I think
10:11	bsteuber	how about defdata, then? :)
10:12	rhickey	bsteuber: maybe
10:13	rhickey	defprogramconstruct
10:13	rhickey	definformationconstruct
10:13	cgrand	coretypes and types?
10:14	cemerick	domain type
10:14	fogus	Digging back into my dusty CLIPS store... deftemplate
10:14	rhickey	definfotype
10:14	hoeck	deftype (base+map) and defbasetype (base only)
10:15	bsteuber	defmodel
10:15	noidi	cgrand, I like coretype vs type
10:15	rhickey	models are usually bigger things
10:15	bsteuber	okay
10:15	stuarthalloway	coretype isn't bad if you really want to type that many chars :-)
10:15	noidi	I assume that won't be too often?
10:15	esj	defdataform
10:15	rhickey	core implies central or important, doesn't get at key distinction
10:16	stuarthalloway	but if I keep saying deft/deftype long enough you will all surrender eventually
10:16	cgrand	impltype
10:16	defn	yeah, ive taken to naming the file which contains my -main, "core.clj" -- that is a "core" AFAICT
10:16	sbt	what is conc in clojure?
10:17	cemerick	basetype
10:17	cemerick	inittype
10:17	raek	is the map vs Employee class thingy what stuarthalloway referred to as something like "data-as-contract" in one of his talks?
10:17	noidi	isn't the main distinction between abstract and concrete types?
10:17	fogus	template
10:17	bsteuber	My votes at this point would be 1. defstruct (old defstruct -> defrecord) 2. defdata 3. defrecord 4. defmap
10:17	noidi	vectors and such are abstract while employees are concrete
10:18	bsteuber	but I'll leave now - so good louck with finding a good conclusion
10:18	raek	...if so, where can I read more about this philosophy?
10:18	defn	raek: which talk?
10:18	stuarthalloway	noidi: or maybe code domain vs. problem domain
10:18	raek	it was for a ruby audience
10:18	stuarthalloway	raek: data as contract is just about "don't hide data"
10:19	rhickey	code domain/ information domain
10:20	stuarthalloway	raek: once data is immutable, protecting it with accessors is (even more) silly
10:20	stuarthalloway	and as soon as you serialize or persist you commit to supporting a data format, not a programmatic interface
10:21	rhickey	defcodetype, definfotype
10:21	raek	ah, yes. I see
10:21	noidi	rhickey, and the latter implement the map interface, while the former don't?
10:21	rhickey	right
10:22	raek	defdatadatatype
10:22	noidi	what if I want to add a new map-like type, which one would I use?
10:23	noidi	for code
10:23	noidi	I think the names should reflect the semantics, not the most common use cases of each function
10:26	raek	(found the talk: http://rubyconf2009.confreaks.com/21-nov-2009-10-25-clojure-for-ruby-programmers-stuart-halloway.html)
10:26	noidi	for that reason I liked the defmaptype/deftype proposal
10:26	noidi	although to make the former shorter, to suggest that it's the common case, I think it should be shortened to deft (to match defn)
10:28	rhickey	cgrand: defimpl good, maybe defimpl, definfo
10:29	cgrand	I like deftype for the common case (definfo)
10:29	fogus	My fav at the moment is definfo
10:29	cgrand	,(meta (let [i 1] #^{:foo i} [i])) ; can this be relied upon?
10:29	clojurebot	{:foo 1}
10:31	rhickey	yeah
10:31	esj	deffacts
10:32	fogus	hrm... I find it fun to say
10:34	defn	rhickey: way OT but did I hear right that you were a professional musician in one of your introductions?
10:34	defn	i was just curious what instrument
10:35	noidi	cemerick, yeah, it sounds like pig latin :)
10:36	noidi	I don't know how a native speaker would pronounce it, but I have trouble placing the emphasis on any syllable without "definfo" sounding weird and foreign
10:37	noidi	it sounds too much like a single word
10:41	defn	go down on the def sound
10:42	defn	like a falling tone in chinese
10:42	defn	raek: thanks for the link
10:47	esj	nobody told me about @(future (:Mephistopheles))
10:50	etate	hmm.. i finally got clojure setup adequately and now when i slime-connect and type a form, it blocks indefinitely
10:50	etate	anyone else experience deadlock like this?
10:51	qbg	But slime-connect is successful?
10:51	etate	yes, i get a REPL
10:51	etate	after pressing y to the version incompatibility
10:52	etate	i should probably also point out that the version of slime i'm using is from cvs
10:52	etate	not from ELPA
10:52	qbg	How recent?
10:52	etate	2010-03-21
10:53	etate	4 days old
10:53	etate	works fine with common lisp
10:54	etate	also it seems to work when i type in numbers, just not when i type in forms
10:54	qbg	I know that at least not too long ago recent versions of slime would not work with Clojure
10:56	rhickey	bbl
10:56	etate	qbg: indeed, i just tried with an earlier version and it works
10:56	etate	qbg: the 2009 (ooold) version in ELPA works but not cvs slime
10:56	qbg	etate: I just tried the 2010-03-21 version, and it seems to work for me.
10:57	etate	qbg: what was your (slime-setup) ?
10:57	etate	qbg: also are you using the maven plugin or are you using lein swank?
10:58	qbg	I'm using (slime-setup '(slime-repl)), and so far I just tested using M-x slime
10:58	etate	qbg: i was using (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-repl)), and lein-swank v 1.1.0
10:59	qbg	Seems to work with lein-swank also
10:59	etate	qbg: which version of lein swank?
10:59	qbg	1.1.0
11:00	etate	qbg: and you tried typing (+ 1 2 3) ?
11:01	etate	qbg: i just tried with the same slime setup as you, same lein-swank, version 2010-03-21 and its deadlocking
11:01	qbg	In my case, (* 4 2)
11:02	etate	the only other thing i can think of is that i have jline included as a dependency
11:02	qbg	Try removing that
11:03	etate	qbg: nope, makes no difference
11:04	qbg	Appeasing the SLIME gods is hard...
11:05	etate	qbg: indeed, oh well i'll just use an old version of slime :)
11:06	Crowb4r	At first I read that as SLUM gods.
11:06	Crowb4r	lol
11:17	npoektop	hi! whould you help me with a macro? http://pastebin.com/MyKFdyFp
11:18	npoektop	it says: "Can't use qualified name as parameter: com.nnn.server.tests.local/tst"
11:19	hiredman	` qualifies symbols
11:19	hiredman	,`a
11:19	clojurebot	sandbox/a
11:19	Chousuke	npoektop: don't quote the macro parameters
11:19	Chousuke	npoektop: and you can use (fn [tst#] ...), an autogensym
11:20	Chousuke	npoektop: but really, that doesn't need to be a macro :P
11:20	Chousuke	or hm, was require a macro or a function? :/
11:20	Chousuke	,require
11:20	clojurebot	#<core$require__6458 clojure.core$require__6458@1ef63f9>
11:21	Chousuke	right.
11:21	npoektop	a function?
11:22	defn	fogus: Clojure as a Johnsonian (Robert) model of programming.
11:22	npoektop	ok
11:22	Chousuke	npoektop: yes
11:23	Chousuke	just (defn rt [& namespaces] (doseq [n namespaces] (require n) (run-test n))) (rt 'foo 'bar)
11:47	Crowb4r	Is there a google api lib for clojure at all?
11:47	chouser	which google api?
11:49	Crowb4r	chouser: Just any in general. I've seen the charts one, but I was just wondering if there was one for docs or anything else.
11:49	Mec	Is there any simple way to do a reduce that short circuits on nil
11:52	raek	reminds me of -?>
11:52	raek	http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/core-api.html
11:52	raek	like ->, but short circuits on nil
11:52	Mec	yes
11:53	hiredman	Mec: take-while
11:53	noidi	the beauty of lazy seqs :)
11:53	hiredman	,(reduce + (take-while identity [1 2 nil 3 4 5]))
11:53	clojurebot	3
11:53	noidi	maybe swap reduce and take-while there?
11:54	noidi	so that it short circuits if the reduction is nil
11:54	Mec	It may be the case that there is no nil in the seq but the function applied by reduce returns nil, in which case it needs to stop as well
11:54	chouser	reduce is eager though, so that wouldn't work
11:54	chouser	Mec: and just return nil?
11:54	noidi	chouser, ah, ok
11:55	Mec	chou
11:55	Mec	chouser, yes
11:55	chouser	Mec: perhaps you could build something on clojure.contrib.seq/reductions
11:56	Licenser	greeetings
11:56	noidi	any reason why reduce is not lazy?
11:56	chouser	noidi: can't be
11:56	raek	it should be fairly straight forward to do this with exceptions or c.c.error-kit, but I don't know if that's good style
11:56	Mec	reduce only returns 1 value, so theres nothing to be lazy on
11:58	chouser	right. while reductions returns a lazy seq of each iteration of reduce, so you can take the last value, or nil whichever comes first
11:58	noidi	d'oh, of course
11:58	Mec	chouser: ok, i'll look into reductions
12:00	raek	(try (reduce #(if (nil? %2) (throw (Exception.)) (+ %1 %2)) [1 2 3 nil 4]) (catch Exception e nil))
12:00	chouser	:-(
12:00	raek	beware of hairy code...
12:01	raek	man, that's ugly... forget I wrote it... :)
12:02	Chousuke	,(reduce + (take-while (complement nil?) [1 2 3 nil 4])) :P
12:02	clojurebot	6
12:02	Chousuke	hmm, I suppose that's not good enough
12:03	Mec	,(reduce #(if (= %2 5) nil (+% %2)) (range 10))
12:03	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
12:04	Mec	more like that
12:06	chouser	,(loop [a 0, s (range 10)] (if (empty? s) a (let [a (+ a (first s))] (when-not (= a 5) (recur a (next s))))))
12:06	clojurebot	45
12:07	chouser	oh, that's not right
12:07	Mec	The nil test is based off of the cumulitive value from the reduce, so a maping function wont work
12:07	chouser	oh, that is right. but (= a 6) is needed to see the nil result
12:08	chouser	it seems strange to me that when the test is true you want to return nil instead of the result so far.
12:09	AWizzArd	An if that returns nil is less idiomatic than using when or when-not.
12:10	Mec	my example was poorly contrived
12:12	chouser	(defn reduce-if-not [pred f init s] (loop [a init, s s] (if (empty? s) a (let [a (f a (first s))] (when-not (pred a) (recur a (next s)))))))
12:17	Mec	is (last (reductions f coll)) = (reduce f coll) ?
12:17	chouser	yes
12:17	noidi	maybe something like this? http://gist.github.com/343741
12:23	Mec	(defn reduce-if-not [pred f init s] (let [r (reductions f init s)] (when-not (some pred r) (last r)))
12:24	Mec	hmm does that look right
12:24	chouser	Mec: just so you're aware, that will hold the head of the reductions seq and walk it a second time, so may fail for large seqs where reduce would work fine.
12:25	Mec	I think im back to the same problem with that one
12:35	raek	,(let [[f & r] [1]] (class r))
12:35	clojurebot	nil
12:35	Mec	(last (take-while pred (reductions f init s))) seems promising but that wont end at nil
12:38	noidi	Mec, did you try chouser's or my suggestions?
12:39	noidi	although I understand if you want to solve it yourself, that's why I wrote that snippet without looking at what chouser wrote :)
12:39	Mec	I'm using chouser's idea, just seeing if theres something simple
12:46	noidi	,(let [r (reductions + (range 5))] (if (some nil? r) nil (last r)))
12:46	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: reductions in this context
12:46	noidi	,(use '[clojure.contrib.seq-utils :only [reductions]])
12:46	clojurebot	nil
12:46	noidi	,(let [r (reductions + (range 5))] (if (some nil? r) nil (last r)))
12:46	clojurebot	10
12:47	noidi	reductions is lazy, and I assume some is too, so I think that should short-circuit
12:47	Mec	It will, but its holding onto the head of a lazy seq
12:48	noidi	argh, of course some is eager as it returns a single value
12:48	noidi	again
12:48	noidi	note to self: when too tired to think, hacking doesn't help
12:49	kylesmith	Has anyone tried using clojure-install recently? It gets halfway through the install, and says clojure-contrib doesn't have a build.xml file.
12:49	Mec	i needs a take-while or a drop-while that can somehow return nil
12:51	technomancy	kylesmith: clojure-install is deprecated; see the swank-clojure readme.
12:54	noidi	,(loop [[x & xs] (reductions + (range 5))] (if xs (if (nil? x) nil (recur xs)) x))
12:54	clojurebot	10
12:54	noidi	I don't know if that's any simpler than what's been proposed, but that's a variation :)
12:56	noidi	I've made so many stupid mistakes today that I'm not sure about anything anymore, but that should walk the lazy seq of reductions without retaining head, returning nil if it encounters a nil reduction, or the final reduction otherwise
12:58	noidi	you could abstract that out and just do a (nil-or-last (reductions ...))
12:58	kylesmith	technomancy: README.md? I see no mention of clojure-install.
12:59	Raynes	That's the point.
12:59	Mec	noidi: thanks for the effort ;p
13:00	Mec	I do like extracting out nil-or-last
13:00	noidi	Mec, here's the function with some nicer formatting http://gist.github.com/343818
13:04	noidi	(nil-or-last (cons nil (reductions + (range 999999999999999999)))) returns instantly, so it seems to be lazy as it should
13:05	Raynes	,(let [result (take-while true? [false true true false true])] (if (empty? result) nil result))
13:05	clojurebot	nil
13:05	Raynes	orly
13:06	noidi	argh, now I'm checking if reductions is lazy like it says in the doc string. now I'm really shutting down the computer and getting some rest :)
13:06	Mec	heh, night
13:06	esj	Raynes: I think it makes sense, results is never gets populated ?
13:07	Chousuke	(if (empty? result) nil result) can be condensed to (seq result) :P
13:07	Raynes	esj: HuH?
13:07	Raynes	Huh*
13:07	Raynes	Chousuke: shh.
13:08	Raynes	,(seq (take-while true? [true true true false true]))
13:08	clojurebot	(true true true)
13:08	Raynes	,(seq (take-while true? [false true true true false true]))
13:08	clojurebot	nil
13:09	Raynes	Seq is a multitasker.
13:09	Mec	if you pass seq a sequence or nil its just like identity
13:10	Raynes	Never would have thunk it.
13:11	defn	Does anyone know in incanter, when you have an x axis that has very long names, how you grow the graph to make them fit?
13:11	Mec	clojure.contrib.seq isnt new is it?
13:11	Raynes	defn: Water it.
13:11	Raynes	Mec: It's the renamed seq-utils
13:11	Mec	ah thats what i've got still
13:12	Raynes	Mec: Likewise, because it doesn't look like anybody is going to fix the contrib master builds on Hudson until clojure 3.0 is out. ;)
13:12	Mec	I just finally got emacs working happily and im not screwing with it
13:13	defn	Raynes: good advice. it worked
13:13	Raynes	defn: ;)
13:13	liebke	defn: there are :width and :height options to view. Or you can just drag the corner of the window :)
13:13	kylesmith	Has swank-clojure been updated to use leiningen? What happened to swank-clojure-autoload?
13:14	defn	liebke: it doesn't seem to be auto resizing, perhaps because i set the :width and :size ?
13:14	liebke	defn: really? which chart are you using?
13:15	defn	bar
13:15	defn	liebke: sorry i should clarify
13:16	defn	it auto-resizes, but honestly it might not be including labels for the x-axis
13:16	defn	i thought those tick marks were just tightly packed text
13:16	liebke	defn: do you have some example code I can see?
13:17	liebke	defn: the x-axis labels for bar-charts are the values of the first argument passed to bar-chart
13:17	defn	(defn build-graph [] (incanter.core/view (incanter.charts/bar-chart countries values :x-label "Countries" :y-label "Number of Denials")))
13:18	liebke	defn: so each of the bars should be labeled with the values of the countries sequence. Is that not what you're seeing?
13:18	defn	liebke: one sec please
13:20	defn	liebke: my structure looks like what we discussed earlier -- [{:country "USA", :count 10} {...} {...}]
13:20	liebke	defn: you can also set the :vertical option to bar-chart to false, to create a horizontal chart, which works better for long labels
13:21	defn	is my structure there correct?
13:22	liebke	defn: yeah, to pass that structure to (to-dataset your-map-array)
13:22	liebke	defn: then you can call (bar-chart :country :count :data (to-dataset your-map-array))
13:23	defn	ahhhhh
13:25	Raynes	Leiningen gets no love: http://muckandbrass.com/web/display/~cemerick/2010/03/25/Why+using+Maven+for+Clojure+builds+is+a+no-brainer
13:26	defn	it's been around for about a day
13:26	defn	besides, you can use maven AND leiningen
13:26	Raynes	defn: If it was more than two days old, it would be OFN.
13:26	defn	OFN?
13:27	Raynes	defn: Old f***ing news.
13:27	defn	heh
13:28	cemerick	defn: what does such a combination look like?
13:28	defn	Raynes: is it evil to \n the crap out of your clojre code?
13:28	defn	cemerick: like rubygems and ant for jruby
13:28	cemerick	yeouch
13:29	defn	cemerick: i dont think there is a magic bullet, but what i do know is that bits and pieces of doing stuff with maven could be built into a tool like leiningen
13:30	defn	and that would be handy, and nice
13:30	Chousuke	I'm looking forward to some kind of clojureish wrapper for maven appearing
13:30	cemerick	Chousuke: from the makers of maven: http://polyglot.sonatype.org/clojure.html
13:30	defn	it's logic programming
13:30	defn	people who write clojure like that sort of thing
13:30	defn	:)
13:31	cemerick	defn: I guess I'm left wondering what such a tool would look like, other than being maven + sexprs.
13:32	defn	cemerick: headius was in here yesterday talking about how closely ant and rubygems work together -- it's not messy, rubygems runs the show and is almost completely written in ruby IIRC
13:32	defn	i am probably misquoting him, but it didnt sound like a bad place to be
13:32	cemerick	defn: yeah, I was here when he said that.
13:33	headius	it's getting there
13:33	headius	hopefully in the next week we'll have a maven repo live that appears to be just a rubygems repo
13:33	headius	gem install org.clojure.clojure
13:33	cemerick	I'm not saying it's messy, I'm saying that I'm not particularly interested in scripting-oriented approaches to doing builds anymore.
13:33	defn	now that is just awesome.
13:33	headius	that will be a nice step toward rubyifing maven on the project side as well
13:34	defn	cemerick: ah, don't you think most people still operate with scripts first, customization second?
13:34	cemerick	And, again, mining the maven plugin ecosystem is simply too fruitful to ignore IMO.
13:34	defn	i mean there comes a point where you just get in there and do what you need to do i guess
13:34	kylesmith	Can anyone give me a link to updated instructions for how to setup emacs/leiningen/swank-clojure?
13:34	defn	kylesmith: mine or sort of up to date :X
13:34	cemerick	defn: scripting is custom from the start. That's the first big win with maven (or other convention-over-configuration approaches).
13:35	headius	cemerick: any rubified maven we do would leverage all existing stuff...we wouldn't reimpl maven
13:35	defn	kylesmith: http://devinwalters.com/posts/24
13:35	headius	just like the rake+ant integration just merges the two spaces
13:35	cemerick	headius: sounds like a winner
13:36	headius	I like what the buildr guys have done, but they don't use any of maven proper
13:36	headius	I'm too lazy for that
13:36	cemerick	I don't really care what gets used, as long as people can stop reimplementing silly stuff like shell exec, javac compilation, building .war files, etc.
13:37	defn	.war files, ugh
13:37	cemerick	defn: ?
13:37	stuartsierra	I wonder what a clojure syntax for ant would look like?
13:38	headius	probably a lot like xml :)
13:38	stuartsierra	yeah
13:38	defn	only less noisy
13:38	headius	(project (target ...
13:38	defn	cemerick: disregard
13:38	headius	rake+ant looks like rake, so it's not a good comparison
13:38	cemerick	defn: that's not a reason to not use XML BTW :-)
13:38	stuartsierra	cemerick: agreed
13:39	defn	cemerick: label me a hopeless aesthete
13:39	stuartsierra	Heck, Ant has macros, doesn't it?
13:39	headius	sort of
13:39	headius	they're really just function defs
13:39	cemerick	stuartsierra: danger, will robinson!
13:39	stuartsierra	ah
13:39	headius	not really contextual
13:39	defn	stuartsierra: i think im supposed to bug you about circumspec?
13:40	stuartsierra	defn: are you? Did halloway put you on it?
13:40	defn	s.halloway said something along those lines to me
13:40	defn	:)
13:40	cemerick	I probably would still be using ant if its scripts were composable and if it had baked-in dep mgmt.
13:40	stuartsierra	defn: Are you at relevance?
13:40	kylesmith	defn: Am I supposed to get massive warnings when installing everything?
13:40	defn	stuartsierra: no sir, just caught him in irc earlier and complimented him on labrepl, asked about circumspec
13:41	Raynes	I <3 Leiningen.
13:41	defn	he pointed me at you and sean devlin :)
13:41	defn	kylesmith: that will happen yes
13:41	defn	kylesmith: it's okay
13:41	stuartsierra	defn: Ok. I talked to Halloway about Circumspec and lazytest last week. Working right now on merging features from both.
13:42	defn	stuartsierra: one big thing ive been really itching for is a demonstration and blog post with the setup process
13:42	stuartsierra	Just trying to settle some syntax wars going on inside my head.
13:42	defn	im not entirely sure how to get the beast moving
13:42	stuartsierra	what, circumspec?
13:42	defn	i generally edit using swank-clojure-project
13:43	defn	open my source and C-c C-j
13:43	defn	C-k*
13:43	defn	how do i get circumspec into the mix
13:43	stuartsierra	no idea :)
13:43	defn	haha
13:43	stuartsierra	that will come, first we have to finish writing it
13:43	defn	oh...right!
13:43	kylesmith	defn: I got several errors while installing. As far as I know, I'm using standard emacs 22 from the ubuntu repos, and I wiped out my .emacs and .emacs.d
13:43	defn	kylesmith: get 23
13:43	defn	it's in your best interest
13:44	defn	i like to compile emacs from source on linux
13:45	defn	but IIRC there are packages for ubuntu 9.10 now
13:45	defn	stuartsierra: thanks for working on it, anyway -- it looks like it will be fantastic
13:46	stuartsierra	here's hoping
13:47	defn	liebke: still no luck with (view (bar-chart :country :count :data (to-dataset (to-incanter-structure))))
13:48	defn	liebke: to-incanter-structure returns [{:country "X" :count 5} {...} {...}]
14:00	liebke	defn: what's it doing?
14:01	defn	I've got it working now, my only remaining question is how to make the bars wider
14:02	liebke	defn: I'm afraid I can't help you there, they are typically as wide as there is room
14:03	defn	liebke: I have about 182 bars
14:06	liebke	defn: yeah, unless you consolidate some of the bars, I don't have a way to make them bigger
14:06	defn	liebke: okay, thanks
14:14	fogus	cemerick: nice screencast. I'm sold
14:18	cemerick	fogus: Thanks :-)
14:20	cemerick	I thought about doing a more elaborate example, but the OS X bundling bit seemed like it had some visual impact to it.
14:20	kylesmith	defn: I'm still getting an error during install on emacs 23: "swank-clojure.el:47:1:Error: Symbol's function definition is void: slime-control-modified-char"
14:21	fogus	I liked it. It was perfect length, perfect example. I didn't care for the soundtrack though. ;-)
14:23	cemerick	fogus: what, you don't like endless yammering and opining while you're watching projects build?!?!!11!
14:23	cemerick	that was a ;-) of course
14:23	chouser	there's no audio, right?
14:23	fogus	cemerick: Nothing wrong with the yammering, although I had imagined your voice to be more like Barry White. :p
14:24	chouser	instead of completely silent, as it is?
14:24	cemerick	chouser: no, there's audio
14:24	chouser	hmph
14:24	cemerick	fogus: time for those voice lessons, get me down a few octaves :-D
14:26	chouser	ah, there we go.
14:34	chouser	clojure build system hotness as defined by cemerick's use of it
14:34	cemerick	heh
14:34	cemerick	chouser: dude, that's just the tip of the iceberg.
14:35	chouser	is the rest of the iceberg also XML?
14:35	chouser	sorry, couldn't resist.
14:35	Raynes	I'd rather use a crappy build system than stare at XML for any length of time.
14:35	Chousuke	you can write poms in clojure though
14:36	Chousuke	and translate them to xml poms
14:36	cemerick	chouser: that depends on how long it takes the polyglot maven stuff to bake
14:36	chouser	nah, xml rocks
14:36	cemerick	but I'll likely stick with the XML bits for quite a long time given the tooling
14:36	Chousuke	Raynes: you have to admit that what cemerick showed blows lein right out of the water :P
14:37	Raynes	I didn't want what cemerick showed.
14:37	cemerick	Did I show something I didn't mean to? ;-)
14:37	Raynes	And it wouldn't make me stop using Lein in any case. It's all I need at this point.
14:37	cemerick	Sorry, you gotta go the long way around the barn for that one.
14:37	chouser	seriously, I've got build files here written in cmake's custom language, gnumake's custom language, and I've worked with qmake -- xml is beautiful compared to those.
14:38	cemerick	fogus: there's lots of us, we just don't jump up and down so much
14:39	chouser	I actually expect cemerick's demo and attitude to be meaningful to a lot of people.
14:39	cemerick	chouser: w.r.t. plugins, the maven native plugin will probably make your socks roll up and down.
14:39	cemerick	i.e. lots of gcj, jni bits
14:39	Raynes	It would be sad to see Leiningen die as a project at this point, but judging why what I've seen here, looks like it might happen. :\
14:39	Raynes	by*
14:40	Chousuke	fogus: I'm rather pleased that maven is so declarative :)
14:40	mattrepl	why is lein dying?
14:40	fogus	Raynes: Seen here?
14:40	Raynes	Looks like everybody is perfectly happy with maven.
14:40	mattrepl	I use lein, don't like maven
14:40	cemerick	Raynes: I'm the outlier at the moment, FYI. Just trying to get people into tools that work today.
14:40	Chousuke	Raynes: lein just needs to change to utilise maven more :)
14:40	Raynes	mattrepl: Obviously, cemerick will change your mind.
14:41	fogus	Raynes: I doubt you'll find perfect happiness associated with anything, must less Maven
14:41	Raynes	;)
14:41	Raynes	Just saying. I thought Leiningen was the big awesome around these parts, but today has really given me a new perspective. I never knew this many people were this happy with maven.
14:41	chouser	I doubt that many people would avoid maven purely based on the xml. It's a combination of unfamilier terms (artifact, phase, groupId, pom), complex-looking pom file content, its desire to manage its own user- or system-wide repo, the xml itself, and all that up against a sense of "that's a lot of junk, why should I bother? The tool I have (make, ant, now lein) works fine!"
14:42	Chousuke	Raynes: leiningen is great, but it can't compare with maven
14:42	Chousuke	Raynes: maven has simply had too much development put into it
14:42	cemerick	chouser: that's part of the "everyone's got their own 20%" syndrome.
14:42	Raynes	Chousuke: It's also a very young project that could become a lot more.
14:42	fogus	Honestly, my exposure to Maven and Lein are almost non-existent. But after spending the past 3 years wrestling with a yak-shaved build system at work I'm very very tired of thinking about build tools
14:43	Chousuke	Raynes: but that lots more still doesn't compare to maven :)
14:43	chouser	so a demonstration of what maven will buy you can go a long way to understanding why it's worth adopting maven's set of pain.
14:43	Raynes	But it could do more with maven.
14:43	cemerick	Raynes: who's going to build all those tools? I'm asking, seriously.
14:43	Chousuke	Raynes: indeed. lein could become a thin, clojureish maven frontend
14:44	mattrepl	it kind of is
14:44	technomancy	Chousuke: it already is that, basically
14:44	chouser	I have used lein exactly once to build ring, and maven exactly once to build contrib. ...roughly similar pain.
14:44	technomancy	more for the deps than other things. I've thought a bit about a plugin adapter for maven since we've been using the appassembler stuff for deployment at work, and it does the job pretty well.
14:45	Chousuke	I think maven scares people mostly because it downloads the internet :P
14:45	Raynes	technomancy: Don't be discouraged by these rebels! We shall rule zeh world!
14:45	fogus	I saw a funny tweet the other day that said something like "mvn clean just downloaded 3 jars"
14:46	cemerick	Yup. World domination through maven screencasts, that's me. 9.9
14:47	Raynes	Looks like you're succeeding. :p
14:47	kylesmith	I'm still having trouble using elpa to install stuff in emacs. grep -R slime-control-modified-char .emacs.d returns nothing. Anyone have any ideas?
14:51	Raynes	cemerick: Can I do mvn swank?
14:51	technomancy	Raynes: it works, but it AOTs everything up front
14:52	technomancy	so you can't use it to fix a problem that causes compilation errors. =(
14:52	Raynes	technomancy: Ew.
14:52	Raynes	Not sold. :\|
14:52	cemerick	Raynes: yes, see here: http://github.com/talios/clojure-maven-plugin
14:52	cemerick	technomancy: even if you don't bind the compile goal?
14:52	technomancy	it also doesn't work if you have swank-clojure test-scoped
14:53	technomancy	cemerick: we don't have any explicit config for swank in our pom
14:53	technomancy	maybe you can unbind it; I haven't looked into it closely.
14:54	cemerick	technomancy: you mean it's set up in a parent somewhere?
14:54	technomancy	I mean we declare it as a dependency and that's it
14:56	hiredman	I think we need to stop worrying about buildsystems and instead build time machines so we can reclaim all the time lost waiting for builds
14:56	stuartsierra	hiredman: But then when would we goof off?
14:57	hiredman	(or hop on irc)
14:57	hiredman	stuartsierra: we'll multiplex
14:57	Raynes	stuartsierra: During the time it takes cemerick to write our maven poms for us.
14:57	hiredman	live for two or three days each real time day
14:57	hiredman	this could get complicated
14:59	stuartsierra	We need some concurrency control mechanisms.
14:59	stuartsierra	You know, put ourselves in Refs or something.
15:01	cemerick	stuartsierra: atoms, please. It hurts when future states of me have to get rebuilt because of contention.
15:02	stuartsierra	heh ):
15:02	stuartsierra	:)
15:03	stuartsierra	Although having a completely safe way to try new things might be useful.
15:05	kylesmith	I found someone else who has the same problem as me: http://pastebin.com/xhPHszg4 I also just realized I have slime version 1:20080223-2 installed. Will that cause problems?
15:06	technomancy	kylesmith: if you've got a system-installed version of slime it might interfere
15:07	kylesmith	Hmm, my sysadmin says it can't be uninstalled for some reason. Can I set some sort of precedence?
15:08	technomancy	kylesmith: but elisp-level compilation errors don't necessarily mean the elisp failed to install
15:08	technomancy	you can still run it in interpreted mode
15:12	technomancy	cemerick: I think you might have a bit of a misconception about how lein works since you mentioned people "reimplementing javac, shell exec, etc." ... that stuff is all handled through the ant API that lancet exposes.
15:13	kylesmith	interpreted mode is fine, I guess. Do you have a link for that?
15:13	technomancy	it comes out to around 700 LOC if you exclude lancet.
15:14	technomancy	basically two weeks worth of work plus contributions that have accumulated since then
15:15	technomancy	kylesmith: I don't know of any link. just ignore the compilation warnings and proceed as per instructions.
15:16	cemerick	technomancy: I wasn't exclusively talking about lein, but I do see stuff like this, which is really troubling. http://github.com/alienscience/leiningen-war/blob/master/src/leiningen/war.clj
15:16	kylesmith	I did. Reload emacs, M-x slime -> "slime-presentation-init-keymaps: Symbol's function definition is void: slime-control-modified-char"
15:16	kylesmith	which is one of the compile errors
15:16	cemerick	technomancy: You're right that I wasn't aware of the lancet part, but the point is a general one, I think.
15:17	technomancy	cemerick: I see... yeah, I'm sure that plugin could be rendered unnecessary with a good plugin adapter.
15:18	technomancy	since my own needs are simple I haven't looked into it much
15:18	cemerick	FWIW, There was some very lengthy discussion about shell exec w.r.t. lein in here a few weeks ago that wow'ed me in the same way, so I inferred from that. :-(
15:19	kylesmith	technomancy: Well, I have to go for now. Thanks for the help so far.
15:19	technomancy	kylesmith: definitely an old version of slime left around somewhere on your system; check C-h v load-path to debug further
15:20	cemerick	technomancy: BTW, I certainly mean you no ill will (I know people can get personal about projects, etc). Just trying to provide some...perspective? ;-)
15:22	technomancy	cemerick: sure, understood. I think it's good that people be aware of what's out there and leverage existing tools, especially for people with slightly more exotic needs like OS X apps or .war files.
15:23	cemerick	technomancy: it's a favorite saying of mine lately that everyone says "I only need 20% of that", but everyone's 20% is different.
15:23	cemerick	though I'd say just about everyone needs .war files :-)
15:24	technomancy	(sorry)
15:24	stuartsierra	heh
15:24	cemerick	I cling to them for exactly the same reason! :-D
15:24	cemerick	war, cargo, done.
15:25	technomancy	the sweet spot for leiningen adoption so far has been higher up the stack... for libraries that aren't meant to be deployed but just used for other applications to depend upon.
15:26	technomancy	where requirements are rather uniform
15:27	technomancy	I wonder how much plugin support the maven-ant-tasks library provides.
15:28	technomancy	I tried to interop with maven itself, but the dependency injection framework it was using seemed to be pretty hostile to outside use.
15:28	cemerick	technomancy: just out of curiosity, remind me again why lein and not clj polyglot?
15:28	technomancy	(in the immortal words of alex payne: "Curl up and DI.")
15:28	technomancy	cemerick: tired of waiting, mostly
15:29	technomancy	it was literally usable within two weeks of weekends and evening hacks
15:30	stuartsierra	technomancy, cemerick: lein does seem to make the simple case easy. Maybe someday we can unite our efforts.
15:30	technomancy	it's significantly smaller than clojure-maven-plugin still, though of course since that's implemented in Java it's hardly apples-to-apples. =)
15:34	technomancy	I guess you could load the file and then subtract the line-count of the docstring of each var; heh
15:37	mattrepl	build tools should build, not sure why deployment would be expected. perhaps it's just semantics. or perhaps it's certain expectations of build tools since maven does more than just build.
15:55	gfodor	I'm getting some very weird behavior with converting from byte arrays to strings and back
15:55	gfodor	here's an example to highlight it
15:55	gfodor	,(count (.getBytes (String. (byte-array [(byte -62) (byte -113) (byte 80)]) "UTF8")))
15:55	clojurebot	3
15:56	gfodor	on my machine, that returns 2!
15:56	gfodor	(mac osx)
15:58	lancepantz	what do i pass to get a repl with a script loaded?
16:00	programble	<gfodor> (mac osx)
16:01	programble	i read that
16:01	programble	as
16:01	programble	clojure code
16:01	Raynes	,(mac osx)
16:01	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: mac in this context
16:01	Raynes	:(
16:01	programble	lol
16:01	gfodor	hah -- anyone with a mac get that to return 2?
16:01	fogus	gfodor: does for me too
16:01	gfodor	that seems horribly wrong, right?
16:02	gfodor	in JRuby on mac osx, it worsk
16:03	headius	mac java has a fux0red default encoding
16:03	headius	we force it to utf-8
16:03	headius	(we jruby)
16:03	headius	it's MacRoman by default but nothing renders MacRoman right
16:04	Chousuke	you shouldn't care about the number of bytes in a string unless you're working with encodings :/
16:04	gfodor	yeah I am doing BER-packing
16:04	gfodor	(hey Charles :))
16:04	gfodor	reimplementing JRuby's pack("w")/unpack("w")
16:04	headius	gfodor: hiya
16:04	headius	ahh for perf or a bug?
16:04	headius	or for clojure?
16:04	gfodor	just so I can read packed strings from clojure packed by a jruby script
16:04	headius	ahh
16:05	headius	good old pack
16:07	gfodor	oh, I figured it out
16:08	gfodor	you need to supply the encoding to getBytes also
16:08	gfodor	why is that? It's it just, er, bytes?
16:08	headius	it uses default external encoding if you don't
16:08	headius	which would be macroman if you don't specify it on OS X
16:08	headius	hence, OS X java iz dum
16:08	gfodor	right, surely I'm just being dumb here, but why do you need to supply the encoding to get the bytes out?
16:09	Chousuke	gfodor: all strings are stored as UCS-2 internally by java
16:09	gfodor	oh
16:09	gfodor	sigh
16:09	gfodor	ok, the world makes sense, thanks
16:09	fogus	,(count (.getBytes (String. #^bytes (byte-array [(byte -62) (byte -113) (byte 80)]) "UTF8") "UTF8")) ;; yuck
16:09	clojurebot	3
16:09	gfodor	yeah
16:10	gfodor	any desire for BER packing code for clojure.contrib? :)
16:10	Chousuke	UCS-2 was a horrible choice for the internal encoding though :P
16:10	Chousuke	but, hindsight ;P
16:11	Chousuke	I bet many string ops in java would be much faster if strings were UTF-8 internally
16:17	gfodor	hey headius, here's some jruby fun
16:17	gfodor	[2000].pack("w").to_java_string.to_s.size == [2000].pack("w").to_s.size
16:17	gfodor	false
16:24	headius	gfodor: what is 'w' again?
16:24	gfodor	BER-compressed
16:24	gfodor	nice int packing for small ints
16:24	gfodor	the problem is basically that hopping through java String "corrupts" the byte array
16:25	gfodor	I believe you guys keep the raw bytes in the RubyString so if you stick to the Ruby side of things everyting is cool
16:25	gfodor	as such, clojure is not going to have the ability to pack into Strings
16:26	headius	yeah, that's why we don't use Java strings
16:26	headius	you can't easily represent arbitrary byte arrays
16:26	technomancy	mattrepl: not necessarily that build tools should perform the deployment, but that they should build artifacts that are deploy-ready
16:27	mattrepl	technomancy: completely agree
16:27	technomancy	for our use at least, a jar is not enough; you want /etc/init.d/ scripts to go with it and at least some basic shell scripts for interaction
16:27	technomancy	we have actual deployment happening with chef
16:29	mattrepl	why not have chef handle deploying the scripts and jars, where the scripts are either static files or being generated from a template on the chef side? don't have experience w/ chef, so maybe preprocess steps, such as generating scripts, can't be done
16:31	technomancy	mattrepl: we probably would if we were using leiningen, but maven did offer some plugins that gave us scripts out of the box.
16:32	technomancy	I'm bad at shell scripting, so I'm predisposed against writing my own. =)
16:35	mattrepl	heh. I'd think no longer, post-lein
16:36	technomancy	all the .sh in leiningen is either copied from a known-good source or written by contributors. =)
16:40	slyphon	i'm trying to use JYaml, and when it parses a file, it returns a java.util.HashMap. is there an easy way of turning that into a clojure hash-map?
16:42	technomancy	slyphon: sure, try (into {} java-hashmap)
16:42	slyphon	oh, duh
16:42	slyphon	ah, almost, it only went one level, but i can take it from there
16:48	alexyk	liebke: the latest incanter on clojars returned by search is 1.0-master. That brings in the snapshot of 20091226... surely old?
16:53	slyphon	hmm
16:54	slyphon	(prn-str) because every language should have a "porn star" function
16:54	KirinDave	Are seq's thread safe?
16:54	KirinDave	I mean, like line-seq
16:54	liebke	alexyk: yeah the version on Clojars is obsolete. Go to http://repo.incanter.org
16:54	alexyk	liebke: so you chose not to clojar anymore?
16:55	liebke	alexyk: it wasn't by choice, it was necessary due to Incanter's build structure. Clojars doesn't support modular maven projects
16:55	alexyk	liebke: got it, cool
16:56	technomancy	KirinDave: the same seq shared across multiple threads should cache itself so changes to the underlying source (file, array, etc) should not interfere
16:56	KirinDave	technomancy: Okay, so that's all done magically for me.
16:56	KirinDave	technomancy: So if i write a lexer into a lazy seq, so long as it uses lazy seq and no state between the calls, it will Just Work™
16:56	slyphon	argh
16:56	slyphon	recursion hurts my brain
16:57	technomancy	KirinDave: I believe so
16:57	KirinDave	technomancy: That's cool.
16:57	alexyk	liebke: you may want to remove the old incanter from clojars then; or setup a cron job to push the new jars there just in case :)
16:58	technomancy	yep =)
16:58	alexyk	slyphon: get a recursive brain, you'll be ok
16:58	liebke	alexyk: last time I checked there wasn't a way to remove projects from clojars
16:58	Raynes	Recursion is awesome.
16:58	chouser	slyphon: are you sure you need clojure maps?
16:58	Chousuke	slyphon: recursion is easy, you only need to understand recursion
16:59	alexyk	technomancy: is it OK to just git pull in the leiningen dir once it was hacked as specified, with a symlnk pointing into the git guts?
16:59	slyphon	chouser: it would make life easier, i believe
16:59	technomancy	alexyk: not sure what "hacked as specified" means here
16:59	chouser	slyphon: if you're going to do persistent updates then you need to convert, otherwise you might not.
17:00	slyphon	nah, this is read-only
17:00	slyphon	it's for configuration
17:00	chouser	java maps still do all the seq stuff properly
17:00	slyphon	hmm
17:00	alexyk	meaning, bootstrapped with static, then that used to build git checkout
17:01	alexyk	then bin/lein from that checkout is used; so if I want a newer, I just git pull, nothing else? no magic>
17:01	alexyk	?
17:01	slyphon	it's situations like this that the -> macro totally rocks my world
17:01	technomancy	alexyk: oh, I see; the bootstrap directions from the readme. that's right; git pull should be all you need to get up to date.
17:02	technomancy	the symlink being from src/leiningen/bin/lein to somewhere on your path
17:02	alexyk	liebke: you can sternly implore _ato to nuke the old crap
17:02	alexyk	technomancy: so basically it pulls whatever jar it needs, no need to rebuild it right?
17:03	technomancy	alexyk: yes, currently there's no AOT necessary
17:03	alexyk	hey people, why would I want to edit my project.clj to update 1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT to 1.2.0-...that? is there some yummy stuff in 1.2.0 already?
17:04	technomancy	alexyk: well you should at least move to 1.1.0 stable. =)
17:04	alexyk	I mean irresistably yummy, de rigeur for any true #clojure-ian?
17:05	technomancy	but 1.2.0 has lots of goodies like fine-grained locals-clearing even if you aren't interested in the Big Exciting protocols, reify, deftype, etc.
17:05	alexyk	technomancy: I thought SNAPSHOT is ahead of the stable, with bug fixes and such, no?
17:05	alexyk	say 1.1.0 is released, is 1.1.0-master branch ahead of it?
17:05	technomancy	alexyk: no, SNAPSHOT is always behind stable of the same version number
17:05	Raynes	albino: deftype, reify, NAMED ARGUMENTS, etc.
17:05	technomancy	SNAPSHOT just means stable hasn't been released yet
17:05	alexyk	Raynoceros: thx
17:06	alexyk	NAMED ARGUMENTS! now we're talking
17:06	Raynes	Named arguments: they're that important.
17:06	technomancy	get it while it's hot; only a couple days old
17:08	alexyk	yay! I love named arguments since Ada 83
17:08	alexyk	a language without named arguments is pfft
17:10	chouser	named arguments without a language is worse
17:10	alexyk	named arguments: what name did you just call my mama?
17:10	alexyk	by reference?
17:11	alexyk	chouser: how's that MEAP coming along? Now that I payed for it, I expect speedy updates! :)
17:11	The-Kenny	alexyk: I think I read something on Twitter about this
17:12	The-Kenny	But I can't remember what it was :/
17:12	alexyk	The-Kenny: about chouser?
17:12	The-Kenny	about the meap updates, propably it was written by him
17:13	alexyk	ah! at least I want one without typos! :)
17:13	alexyk	I mean c'mon, we got 2 authors and lots of typos! they can cross-proofread!
17:14	alexyk	Manning has people to proofread, with all the ripping-off and whatnot!
17:14	alexyk	the guy who finds strangely clothed men for the covers can do it in between finds
17:15	underdev	lol
17:16	Raynes	chouser: Yeah. Leave this channel immediately and continue writing. I wants updatez.
17:16	alexyk	chouser: ignore Raynes, I'll take live advice any time over the written word
17:17	Raynes	chouser: Ignore alexyk, you can teach us more in the book than you can teach us here.
17:17	Raynes	We have hiredman if we need help.
17:17	alexyk	chouser: doubly ignore Raynes, do both!
17:17	Raynes	Run along now.
17:17	alexyk	the hiredman is hired and not for any more hire
17:18	Raynes	alexyk: That was poetic.
17:18	The-Kenny	Yay! Github is using <canvas> for the network graph now :) http://github.com/blog/621-bye-bye-flash-network-graph-is-now-canvas
17:18	alexyk	Raynes: indeed
17:22	chouser	ha, you guys are funny.
17:23	chouser	we've submitted several updated and new chapters, and are just waiting for manning to do what they do to them before they go up on the MEAP.
17:23	chouser	so "any day now"
17:25	technomancy	probably waiting on those lazy reviewers
17:25	underdev	chouser: i read some tweets that they were soon coming, but have been checking and they weren't there. Waiting for a little more content to pull the trigger...
17:26	Raynes	underdev: I'll put some grease on the trigger.
17:26	chouser	underdev: that's fine. there will be a mostly-new chapter 1 soon, which may allow you to better evaluate the book.
17:26	alexyk	(lazy-seq reviewers)
17:27	underdev	"pull the trigger"... hanging out on slickdeals too much...
17:29	alexyk	underdev: just pull the damn trigger already, or it will get rusty
17:30	alexyk	manning had 47% off recently
17:30	alexyk	the way to do it is to sign for their list, wait for a ridiculous uneven discount like 42% for two books, and get chouser's and say hadoop
17:31	alexyk	or two chouser's, one for you, one for the kids!
17:31	alexyk	one for grandma
17:31	chouser	45% right now http://twitter.com/chrishouser/status/10990587934
17:32	alexyk	wow! divisible by 5! incredible!
17:33	programble	lol
17:34	underdev	chouser: i actually tried it early today, and it wasn't taking my coupon code
17:34	chouser	underdev: hmph.
17:34	underdev	so i guess i did try to pull the trigger
17:34	underdev	me too
17:35	chouser	I got it from the bottom of this page: http://tinyurl.com/ygo3654
17:36	chouser	maybe being mentioned in slot 10 of the bestselling meap list isn't sufficient?
17:36	alexyk	IRC: Collective Intelligence in Inaction
17:37	alexyk	chouser: that list is just bestsellers! the special deals on top do not grep it
17:38	alexyk	the top 10 are always there for reference...
17:38	alexyk	but, they say "mentioned in this mailer"
17:38	chouser	it says "any book mentioned in this mailer" in bright red giant font
17:38	alexyk	yes
17:38	chouser	so .. I thought ... but perhaps I was wrong.
17:38	chouser	sorry
17:38	alexyk	someone has to explain them what "mentioned" means -- it's a contract in the US
17:39	alexyk	I'll testify in small claims court
17:39	underdev	yeah, when i hit apply with code m3145, the price doesn't change
17:39	alexyk	notary-certify grep results of page source \| grep clojure certify found
17:39	alexyk	hence they owe the discolunt
17:40	alexyk	discount
17:40	alexyk	btw looks like 3145 are the digits of π
17:40	alexyk	almost
17:41	slyphon	you guys know if there's a way to recursively search back through the history in the slime-repl clojure buffer?
17:41	slyphon	like C-r in readline?
17:41	danlarkin	recursively? ...what
17:42	slyphon	incrementally
17:42	slyphon	sorry, brain-fart
17:43	danlarkin	C-r does an isearch-backward
17:43	slyphon	i know you can just do C-r and search up through the buffer, but if you don't have the buffer saved..
17:43	danlarkin	which is probably what you want
17:44	danlarkin	oh, I see what you mean
17:44	slyphon	there's C-<up arrow>, which goes through the history entries one-by-one
17:44	slyphon	yeah
17:44	slyphon	just curious, i can live without it
17:44	danlarkin	there's M-p-r
17:45	underdev	yeah, code no good
17:45	slyphon	ooh
17:45	slyphon	that looks promising
17:45	slyphon	danlarkin: thanks
17:47	alexyk	underdev: just sign up for the email, it's usually 40+% every other week
17:48	alexyk	sometimes for 2 books, you can get another as an excuse for getting the discount
17:53	alexyk	Lucene/Hadoop/Mahout/Intelligence are all good for 2 books
17:55	ihodes	anyone have an easy way to copy something to the clipboard? java.awt.datatransfer isn't working for me too well
18:02	miltondsilva	,(interleave {:a :b} {1 2})
18:02	clojurebot	([:a :b] [1 2])
18:03	Licenser	,(interleave [:a :b] [1 2])
18:03	clojurebot	(:a 1 :b 2)
18:03	miltondsilva	:(
18:03	Licenser	might be better to understand that way :)
18:03	Licenser	what did you expect it to do?
18:03	miltondsilva	{:a 1 :b 2}
18:03	Licenser	wow but that is a very different thing
18:04	miltondsilva	I always forget coll isn't a map
18:04	Licenser	,(seq {1 2}
18:04	clojurebot	EOF while reading
18:04	Licenser	,(seq {1 2})
18:04	clojurebot	([1 2])
18:04	Licenser	,(flatten {1 2})
18:04	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: flatten in this context
18:04	kotarak	,(zipmap (mapcat identity {:a :b}) (mapcat identity {1 2}))
18:04	clojurebot	{:b 2, :a 1}
18:04	kotarak	But what would be the use?
18:04	Licenser	kotarak was faster :)
18:05	kotarak	You can't guarantee key order. (in general)
18:05	Licenser	especially since there is no order in maps
18:05	miltondsilva	I'm processing *.obj files
18:05	miltondsilva	need to get vertices and faces
18:06	Licenser	miltondsilva: but why map keys values from two maps?
18:06	miltondsilva	now that you mention it.. I see it's useless
18:07	kotarak	,0xff
18:07	clojurebot	255
18:07	miltondsilva	oh
18:07	miltondsilva	no
18:07	miltondsilva	it's no from to maps
18:07	kotarak	,0o77
18:07	clojurebot	Invalid number: 0o77
18:07	miltondsilva	two*
18:07	Licenser	bit {} is a map
18:07	kotarak	,077
18:07	clojurebot	63
18:07	Licenser	*but
18:07	Licenser	,007
18:07	clojurebot	7
18:07	Licenser	I want that to be fixed to "Bond" :(
18:08	miltondsilva	it's someting like this (vertices faces) -> {:vertices vertices :faces faces}
18:09	Licenser	ah I see
18:09	Licenser	reduce it?
18:09	Licenser	I don't know what exactly vertices or faces are but I have somethign that looks a bit like that
18:10	kotarak	,(zipmap [:a :b :c :d] [1 2 3 4])
18:10	clojurebot	{:d 4, :c 3, :b 2, :a 1}
18:10	cemerick	mabes: ping?
18:10	Licenser	http://github.com/Licenser/clj-sandbox/blob/master/src/net/licenser/sandbox/tester.clj#L51 look at this?
18:11	mabes	cemerick: hey! you don't mind if I ask you some noob java deployment questions do you?
18:11	Raynes	Licenser: If you don't have any use for the 'new' branch, I'm going to go ahead and delete it since it's been merged.
18:11	Licenser	Raynes: please do :) I forgot how to do it :P
18:12	Raynes	Licenser: git branch -d <branchname>
18:12	Raynes	;P
18:12	Licenser	I tried that :( didn't worked
18:12	Licenser	it deleted it locally but on on github
18:12	mabes	cemerick: are you using jetty in production? if so, are you using embedded jetty?
18:13	cemerick	mabes: no, not in production yet -- embedded jetty in dev environments tho
18:13	Licenser	I just read the google groups massage about the build tool and I think there is a entire different question we didn't asked: Do we actually need/want a build tool?
18:13	kotarak	Licenser: (reduce #(update-in %1 [(:type %2)] conj (:tests %2)) {} definitions)
18:13	Licenser	kotarak: :( that is too easy
18:13	miltondsilva	Licenser, kotarak: thanks but I see now that I don't need to do it. but if theres a better way of doing this let me know :) http://clojure.pastebin.com/WRB5GH89
18:14	cemerick	mabes: did you get my /msg?
18:14	Raynes	Licenser: git push origin :new <-- Deletes a remote branch.
18:14	Licenser	I mean (@the build tool thing) the JVM has a great JIT, so what is wrong with just using .clj files and calling them. It saves the entire silly -main stuff to
18:15	Licenser	jruby comes a long way with that and I don't see much of a drawback, or actually any important need for compiling clojure code (save for libs callable from java)
18:15	Raynes	Licenser: Also, I added a few new functions to the whitelist, so be sure to pull before your next push.
18:15	Licenser	aye
18:16	cemerick	Licenser: I really don't know where to start. Customers don't like running stuff from the command line, and you can't reasonably run a site with a pile of shell scripts to manage jvm instances manually.
18:16	headius	clojure doesn't seem to have a way of referencing files normally
18:16	headius	not like Ruby's "require"
18:16	headius	that might be a problem for running without a precompile
18:16	clojurebot	not a problem, the average bid for it on getacoder is $821.00
18:16	Licenser	then lets add that?
18:17	hiredman	headius: load-file?
18:17	Licenser	I mean it should not be a problem to - eww okay it already exists
18:17	headius	hiredman: does that work once you've precompiled everything
18:17	Licenser	just give it a nicer less scary name :P
18:17	Licenser	but why precompile?
18:17	hiredman	,(doc load-file)
18:17	clojurebot	"([name]); Sequentially read and evaluate the set of forms contained in the file."
18:17	hiredman	,(doc load)
18:17	clojurebot	"([& paths]); Loads Clojure code from resources in classpath. A path is interpreted as classpath-relative if it begins with a slash or relative to the root directory for the current namespace otherwise."
18:17	Licenser	I mean 90% of the stuff can run without it right?
18:18	headius	there's some duality here about being a file versus being a class though, no?
18:18	headius	load-file won't load clojure code compiled into classes I presume
18:18	headius	will load load files?
18:18	cemerick	load loads classes preferentially to .clj files
18:18	hiredman	headius: in RT at least it has some functionality to load a file or class, whichever is newer, dunno how it is exposed
18:18	headius	and is there no conflict between naming of classes versus files?
18:18	hiredman	cemerick: whichever is newer
18:19	headius	that's the issue we have
18:19	cemerick	hiredman: ah, right.
18:19	headius	files can have arbitrary paths and filenames that aren't valid class names
18:19	Licenser	in a ideal world doing something like clj src/my-main-file.clj and java -jar my-jar.jar should do the same
18:19	headius	Licenser: right
18:19	Licenser	that is what we should aim to get
18:19	kotarak	miltondsilva: another approach http://clojure.pastebin.com/6Hym772L
18:20	headius	it's just hard to support that seamlessly because filesystem paths may differ from package+class
18:20	headius	in jruby we try to mangle paths both ways... / becomes _, + becomes _plus_
18:20	headius	but it's hard
18:20	miltondsilva	kotarak: much better :)
18:21	Licenser	but it is kind of important to give the entire thing a 'it just works' feeling, and that is important in my eyes
18:21	headius	like how do you make a .clj be loadable as either a class or a file with one line of code if it's in a dir structure like blah/foo/1.0.5/whatever
18:21	kotarak	miltondsilva: but not tested...
18:21	miltondsilva	yes but the idea ;)
18:21	headius	that's been the challenge for jruby
18:21	headius	I'd love to brainstorm solutions
18:22	Licenser	hmm brute force: take your class path map the files which classes they have
18:22	Licenser	silly but not impossible solution
18:23	Licenser	this makes the startup for projects from the commandline (a bit?) slower but it seems jars are preffared anyway
18:23	Licenser	if you've a FS with meta data you youd even stuff such things in the meta data
18:23	headius	getting pretty wild now
18:23	headius	it needs to be simple and work everywhere
18:24	Licenser	you've a relative path, some how
18:24	Licenser	I guess
18:24	Licenser	so scanning the files in that path once and mapping class -> file(s) should not be impossible
18:24	miltondsilva	kotarak: you had a very small typo (fload) apart from that it works very well
18:24	Licenser	for small to medium sized projects I doubt the time for that would be even notable
18:25	kotarak	miltondsilva: ah. 23:23 o'clock here, typos are allowed. ;P
18:25	Licenser	in clojure a class = a namespace right?
18:25	Licenser	just to get sure, I'm not a clojure expert
18:25	kotarak	Licenser: no
18:25	Licenser	what do we actually want then?
18:25	headius	it's especially weird for jruby since require can do things like require '~foo/bar/../baz/quux'
18:25	headius	what class name do you look for there?
18:26	Licenser	hmm hmm
18:27	Licenser	I am confused now
18:27	kotarak	,xff
18:27	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: xff in this context
18:28	cemerick	,0xff
18:28	clojurebot	255
18:29	Raynes	<Nilium> I think the one thing we got out of lisp was emacs, and that's akin to a war crime.
18:29	Licenser	headius: off topic question, do you have a highlight on jruby? :P
18:29	kotarak	cemerick: I know. I wondered whether the 0 is necessary (and of course it is, because xff is a symbol, but it's already late here ...)
18:30	cemerick	:-)
18:30	kotarak	cemerick: btw: wau wau grrr woof woof woof - oh, you mentioned it. My mistake. ;)
18:30	headius	Licenser: jruby and duby, yes :)
18:30	Licenser	will ther be jduby?
18:30	cemerick	kotarak: dude, I totally missed that one. :-)
18:31	Licenser	:)
18:31	Licenser	sneaky headius, sneaky
18:31	headius	probably something like that once I start to look into type hints for jruby
18:31	Licenser	^^
18:33	kotarak	,0xffM
18:33	clojurebot	Invalid number: 0xffM
18:33	kotarak	k
18:34	Licenser	0xdeadbeef
18:34	Licenser	m,0xdeadbeef
18:34	Licenser	,0xdeadbeef
18:34	clojurebot	3735928559
18:34	Licenser	geez I suck :(
18:42	headius	,(/ 1 0)
18:42	clojurebot	java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero
18:42	headius	dang
18:42	programble	um
21:46	defn	i wish there was a way to generate a bit of test data by intelligently parsing a function and determining what it expects for its vars
21:47	_ato	type inference?
21:48	hiredman	clojurebot: deft?
21:48	clojurebot	deft is http://gist.github.com/128259
21:48	defn	awesome! named it deft?
21:49	hiredman	it's old and not very good
21:50	defn	hiredman: i think the consensus today was to use deft and deftype
21:51	hiredman	deft for the struct like map thing ontop of deftype?
21:51	defn	yes
21:51	defn	there was a lot of talk about calling it defmaptype
21:51	defn	or pruning defstruct
21:51	defn	but in the end i got the impression that it would be called deft and deftype
21:52	defn	i dont fully understand how it all works yet so dont quote me too literally on that
21:53	defn	hiredman: i created a basic clojure interface for maxmind's geoip java library. is that a clojure library? I almost feel guilty publishing it because it is just a transcription of java to clojure...
21:55	hiredman	shrug
21:57	defn	i suppose it oculdnt hurt anyone
21:57	defn	i just feel sort of like a fraud publishing it
21:57	defn	there's no original work in it
22:02	defn	17:28 < kotarak> cemerick: btw: wau wau grrr woof woof woof - oh, you mentioned it. My mistake. ;)
22:02	defn	gah, sorry
22:04	cp2	hiredman: pardon for rolling through your gists, but... http://gist.github.com/223246
22:04	cp2	what is this for, heh
22:04	cp2	i mean, its pretty obvious what it _does_
22:04	cp2	not so much _why_
22:05	Mec	Anyone know a good tutorial that shows all the different types of swing components?
22:08	sattvik	Mec: I thought there were some Swing demos that shipped with the JDK, you could look for those.
22:08	dsop	is there a function in clojure on contrib which doesnt add the reuslt of a map to the new list of the result is nil
22:10	dsop	so to say it ignores the result value if it's nil
22:11	sattvik	dsop: What do you mean by the result of a map? Are you talking about (map fn data)?
22:12	miltondsilva	you could filter the result?
22:12	dsop	sattvik: yes (map fn data)
22:13	Mec	(map fn (filter identity data))
22:14	sattvik	,(filter (complement nil?) (map identity [1 2 nil 4]))
22:14	clojurebot	(1 2 4)
22:15	miltondsilva	,(remove nil? (map identity [1 2 nil 4]))
22:15	clojurebot	(1 2 4)
22:16	dsop	hm
22:16	dsop	thx
22:17	sattvik	miltondsilva: That's even better. I wondered if there was a way to avoid the complement.
22:17	miltondsilva	:)
22:20	dsop	Mec: hm i'm not sure if i understand why identity doesn't map nil
22:20	miltondsilva	,(map identity [1 2 nil 4])
22:20	clojurebot	(1 2 nil 4)
22:20	Mec	(filter identity [1 2 nil 4])
22:20	Mec	,(filter identity [1 2 nil 4])
22:20	clojurebot	(1 2 4)
22:20	miltondsilva	it does... but you then remove the nils
22:21	dsop	ah ys
22:22	Mec	its about equivalent but i prefer (remove nil?) it says more what you want to do
22:26	slyphon	uhm
22:30	brian__	Hi, I'm just learning about java interopt, I'm not sure I understand how java objects are used, ie in Java: Tclass t = new Tclass() , what is the equivalent to "t" in clojure? Thanks
22:31	miltondsilva	brian__: http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html#JavaInterop
22:34	brian__	ok
22:56	brandonw	if i am having problems figuring out exactly what something is called in clojure.contrib, is there a way to list all namespaces available in clojure.contrib?
22:59	Mec	brandonw: http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/index.html
23:01	brandonw	right, but theoretically if there isn't any documentation
23:01	brandonw	or i don't have access to it at the moment
23:01	brandonw	is there any way to enumerate symbols in a namespace from within clojure?
23:01	Mec	There is, but i'm not sure how to do it
23:06	Mec	The namespace section of the cheatsheet has some that might work
23:07	brandonw	perfect: all-ns does the trick
23:07	brandonw	that's what i was looking for, thanks :)
23:07	Raynes	brandonw: There is also grep. :>
23:08	brandonw	yes, but i don't like to leave clojure, it is too nice :)
23:08	brandonw	Raynes from reddit?
23:08	Raynes	brandonw: Aye, sir.
23:08	brandonw	i am the annoying one talking to you about vimclojure ;)
23:09	Raynes	And I'm the annoying one complaining about VimClojure.
23:09	brandonw	:) i only wanted to help because i didn't realize you already had emacs; i thought you were trying out vim from nothing
23:10	brandonw	definitely no reason to deal with vimclojure's problems if you already have something perfectly workable, not to mention emacs' support is significantly better
23:10	Raynes	Naw. I'm persistent enough that I could figure everything out if I really needed to. I just wanted to try it out a while back.
23:11	brandonw	yeah. it isn't so much that vimclojure rivals emacs' clojure support (it is reasonably close, but still noticeably worse)
23:11	Raynes	I'm fairly certain that once Meikel gets the build stuff and documentation for such worked out, it will be much simpler.
23:11	brandonw	it is more amazing what meikel did with vim (which is much harder to extend for something like swank-clojure)
23:11	brandonw	yeah
23:11	Raynes	I imagine. VimScript makes my eyes burn.
23:11	Raynes	@_@
23:12	brandonw	i am still amazed at his vim/clojure prowess. i've tried several plugins for different filetypes in vim
23:12	brandonw	and they all had the basics, and some attempted stuff like auto-complete
23:12	brandonw	but nothing has come even close to vimclojure in terms of a fully working repl, completion, viewing source, going to definitions, auto-completion
23:12	brandonw	with only vim-script to work with, it truly astounds me :)
23:13	Raynes	Agreed.
23:14	Mec	wooo lich king dead finally
23:15	Mec	now back to programming
23:15	brandonw	a blizzard fan
23:15	brandonw	you wouldn't happen to have a starcraft 2 beta key you could accidentally PM me with :D
23:15	Raynes	Probably because Diablo II is so god-awful hackable.
23:15	Mec	no :x havnt gotten one myself
23:16	brandonw	yeah, i'm actually working on a bwapi-proxy port to clojure as an exercise in learning clojure
23:16	brandonw	not to mention making it easier to interface with :)
23:16	Raynes	brandonw: Hilariously, it was teh blizzhackers that got me into programming. I still hang around #bhdev on SynIRC.
23:17	Raynes	I assume you probably know of them.
23:17	Raynes	If you're a blizzard fan.
23:17	brandonw	that's pretty cool :) what were they doing when you first started programming?
23:17	brandonw	yeah, they are the ones responsible for the sc2 beta crack :)
23:17	brandonw	which i for some reason haven't tried yet...
23:17	Raynes	It was when the 1.12 patch was released a couple of years ago.
23:17	Raynes	They were mostly doing map hack and tppk.
23:18	Raynes	cough#clojure-casualcough
23:19	phren0logy	Is anyone else using LabREPL?
23:19	Raynes	miltondsilva: Hit-and-run channel joins are frowned upon. ;P
23:19	Raynes	It's more active during the day. We're growing slowly.
23:20	miltondsilva	:) I was just checking to see if there was much activity
23:23	Raynes	brandonw: You should totally join. If only to check out my bot.
23:23	Raynes	:p
23:23	brandonw	#clojure-casual?
23:23	Raynes	Indeed.
23:23	brandonw	i thought i checked to see who was in it, and i didn't see anyone
23:23	brandonw	i guess i typed the wrong channel :)