#clojure – 2010-03-24

2010-03-24

00:01	psykotic	seriously. torus trooper.
00:02	tomoj	mabes: in the solitaire I know, you can only see the cards that get turned face up, not the whole deck
00:03	tomoj	that paper discusses "Thoughtful Solitaire" where you can see the whole deck?
00:04	defn	Licenser: you around?
00:06	mabes	tomoj: right with Thoughful Solitaire you can see every card.. no matter where it is. That way you can try to strategize your moves and it leaves things less up to chance
00:10	mabes	hrm.. so if I rename my protocol to IStupid it works.. maybe there is an issue with the type being Card and the protocol being ICard?
00:19	Raynes	clojurebot: sexp > you
00:19	clojurebot	<monads> is "yea, though I should walk in the valley of imperative code, I shall fear no evil, for your monad comforts me" - seen in #haskell
00:19	Raynes	sexpbot*
00:46	rem7	at the beginig of the "Programming Clojure" book there is an exercise where you say "hello back" to a user when he is already in a ref. You can 'alter' the ref with 'conj'... how do you do the opposite? say I wanna remove a user...
00:46	technomancy	rem7: depends on what's inside the ref
00:46	psykotic	rem7: if you use a set, you can use disj
00:47	rem7	another ref...
01:03	rem7	psykotic: thanks that worked
01:44	joshua-choi	Is anyone using a bare REPL with JLine and no IDE? I'm encountering a weird bug where (assuming I have a history) if I press up twice and down once, my cursor skips to the left and starts overwriting incorrectly.
01:45	defn	ahhh, to parse 300MB of text for IP addresses and then count the number of occurrences for each unique
01:45	defn	any tips?
01:46	joshua-choi	I know how I'd try doing it in Java (with Scanners)...but I don't know if there are any better Clojure ways.
01:46	defn	that's sort of the path im looking at (doing it in pure clojure)
01:46	joshua-choi	I should really look at clojure.contrib carefully someday
01:47	defn	ive read through alex osbourne's widefinder 2 implementation, and while it looks like it works beautifully -- im not comfortable using that code without knowing how it all works. there is a lot of java going on which I don't fully understand
01:47	defn	I'm trying to do something "good enough" with just clojure and a sprinkle of java
01:48	joshua-choi	Have you looked at clojure.contrib.io/read-lines?
01:48	joshua-choi	It seems to create a lazy sequence of a file's lines
01:48	joshua-choi	Though I don't know how that'll perform with 300 MB
01:50	defn	nod
01:51	defn	my main problem so far has been tallying uniques
01:52	defn	(count (read-lines (java.io.File. "myfile"))) is enough to hang me it seems
01:52	joshua-choi	That's unfortunate...I wonder why—if it's lazy, shouldn't it be fine?
01:53	joshua-choi	Oh, you're using count.
01:53	defn	Is there a better way to know the length?
01:53	joshua-choi	Well, hang on...does count hold onto the head?
01:53	Chousuke	it shouldn't.
01:53	joshua-choi	Hmm
01:53	defn	im running 1.1.0 FWIW
01:54	defn	it's definitely a lazy-seq
01:55	joshua-choi	How does count work anyway? Does it increment a number while discarding each element?
01:55	joshua-choi	I can't tell from the source
01:58	defn	perhaps I need a line-seq
02:00	joshua-choi	What do you mean?
02:00	defn	I'm just grasping at straws here :)
02:01	psykotic	joshua-choi: it's technically container specific. LazySeq does the equivalent of (loop [s (seq coll), n 0] (if s (recur (next s) (inc n)) n))
02:01	defn	,(< 0 (.indexOf "abc" "b"))
02:01	clojurebot	true
02:01	defn	,(< 0 (.indexOf "abc" "q"))
02:01	clojurebot	false
02:01	joshua-choi	Okay, so LazySeq's count method does increment and discard.
02:02	joshua-choi	Why would it hang, then?
02:02	joshua-choi	defn: Does your JVM run out of memory?
02:02	ynef	newbie question: I want to return the number of days in a month for a given year. I already have a function called "is-leap-year?". How should I write the "(defn days-in-month [year month] ..." function? (this is not homework, btw: I'm learning Clojure by doing ProjectEuler problems)
02:03	defn	joshua-choi: i think it may just break my REPL -- it's not clear what is going wrong -- I just get "Evaulation Aborted" in my REPL after awhile
02:03	defn	I've sent print-length sufficiently low to avoid the printer from going nuts and killing something
02:03	defn	s/sent/set
02:05	ynef	my idea way "make a list of numbers and for february do a (if (is-leap-year? year) (29) (28)) and return 'eval' on (nth month) on that list" -- however, that did not work, since "year" cannot be referenced at that point(?)
02:05	ynef	s/way/was
02:05	ynef	(also, pardon my English, not a native speaker)
02:06	psykotic	defn: how big is 'myfile'?
02:06	defn	300MB
02:06	joshua-choi	ynef: I'd (def regular-month-days {1 31, 3 31, 4 30, ...}) (defn february-days [year] ...) (defn days-in-month [year month] (or (regular-month-days month) (february-days year)).
02:07	psykotic	defn: i posted my trace-seq on the mailing list. did you see that?
02:07	psykotic	it always use it for things like this, to monitor progress.
02:07	defn	psykotic: i did not see that but i will check it out immediately
02:08	psykotic	i'll gist it
02:08	ynef	joshua-choi: that's really nice, thanks!
02:08	defn	psykotic: thanks buddy
02:09	noidi	bleh, freenode sucks
02:09	noidi	Irssi: Your nick is owned by (my name)
02:09	noidi	#clojure Cannot change nickname while banned on channel
02:09	defn	yeah i find that a bit annoying as well noidi
02:09	noidi	and I couldn't identify as myself for having the wrong nick
02:11	noidi	for the guy asking about his date functions, you could build the map in the function, then you could use the year variable in your map
02:11	noidi	(I lost my lastlog when freenode made me part the channel) :P
02:14	defn	psykotic: ping me when you've gisted please
02:14	psykotic	ok
02:15	joshua-choi	I am now fully convinced of the REPL's usefulness after having used it with JLine for a week
02:15	joshua-choi	I don't know how I survived by running tests repeatedly
02:15	defn	ill be more convinced of the REPL's usefulness once it quits breaking on me ;)
02:16	joshua-choi	Is there a way to monitor the JVM's memory in realtime?
02:17	defn	good question
02:18	bobo_	jconsole/jvisualvm
02:18	joshua-choi	Ah
02:24	defn	psykotic: any luck? I can't seem to find it with google
02:24	ynef	noidi: how would I do that (I'm the date function guy)? I'm a complete newbie in all things related to LISP :-)
02:24	psykotic	defn: i'm having a bad internet connection right now, so gist is difficult. i'll privmsg you, it's only a few lines
02:31	noidi	ynef, (defn days-in-month [month year] ({1 31, 2 (if (is-leap-year? year) 29 28), 3 31, ...} month))
02:31	noidi	or something like that
02:32	joshua-choi	I have a question on iterate and lazy-seq, at http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/blob/49a7d6b8e14050a45df5332e768ba6647752215d/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L2012
02:32	joshua-choi	iterate calls itself within a lazy-seq form. Does iterate increase the stack for every element in the sequence it's called with?
02:32	noidi	ynef, of course you could extract the map generation into its own function and just do ((days-in-months 2010) 3)
02:37	psykotic	joshua-choi: no. think about when the lazy-seq thunk is actually called.
02:37	psykotic	joshua-choi: in effect, the "stack" is reified as the lists that cache the lazy-seq cells. if you throw away the head as you traverse it, there's no increasing memory consumption.
02:39	joshua-choi	psykotic: Yeah, I see. Thansk.
02:39	joshua-choi	Well, calling (->> 3 (iterate inc) (drop 100000000) first) still seems to freeze my REPL. I wonder if it's because of memory or if it's just taking a long time for some reason.
02:39	psykotic	i can see why that isn't totally obvious because of lazy-seq's implicit thunking
02:40	psykotic	joshua-choi: you're having to traverse a 100 hundred cons cells and associated lazy generation logic.
02:40	psykotic	err, 100 million
02:40	joshua-choi	I see
02:40	joshua-choi	It's because of object creation
02:41	joshua-choi	Wait, no...um, is that right?
02:41	psykotic	well, even if there was no heap allocation, you're still looking at a hundred million iterations of something
02:41	psykotic	even adding a hundred million numbers takes a bit of time, and this is heavier weight
02:41	joshua-choi	I see
02:42	joshua-choi	I've been trying to figure out how to create my own lazy sequences
02:42	psykotic	it's not that different from creating eager sequences.
02:42	joshua-choi	Namely, I have a parser, and I want to be able to get a lazy sequence of all the matches inside a string.
02:42	joshua-choi	I don't want to have to resort to state monads.
02:43	joshua-choi	I'm going to sleep now. Thanks a lot for your help.
02:43	psykotic	sounds like... the list monad :)
02:43	joshua-choi	Well...
02:43	joshua-choi	What does the list monad do?
02:43	psykotic	the usual parser monad is state + list, but you can retain the list part and be explicit about the state plumbing (the remaining chars to parse)
02:43	psykotic	it effectively does backtracking search
02:43	joshua-choi	Oh
02:44	joshua-choi	Yeah, that's what I'm talking about
02:44	joshua-choi	Though it's vectors in clojure.contrib.monads, I think
02:44	psykotic	clojure's for macro is basically 'do' notation for the list monad
02:44	joshua-choi	Wait, no
02:44	joshua-choi	Ah
02:44	joshua-choi	You're talking about the seq monad
02:44	psykotic	yes
02:44	joshua-choi	Which is...the same thing, right
02:44	joshua-choi	:)
02:44	psykotic	modulo the abstraction, yeah,
02:44	psykotic	i was trying to use a term you might have heard elsewhere
02:45	psykotic	anyway, you don't need to use the monadic magic for this, you can do it manually.
02:45	joshua-choi	Yeah
02:45	joshua-choi	Though I'm going to have to sketch this out yeargh
02:45	joshua-choi	Thanks a lot; have a good night
02:45	psykotic	for example, let's say you write your parser functions as taking the sequence of outstanding characters and returning a vector of the result and the new outstanding characters (i.e. with the consumed ones unconsed)
02:45	psykotic	then you can do something like this:
02:46	joshua-choi	Hmm
02:46	psykotic	(for [[m s] (parse-number s)
02:46	psykotic	[n s] (parse-number s)]
02:46	psykotic	[(+ m n) s)
02:46	psykotic	that would parse two successive numbers and return their sum, while consuming the parsed characters
02:46	joshua-choi	What does parse-number return?
02:47	psykotic	with something like parsec in haskell, the 'threading' of the s value would be implicit (that's what the state monad does).
02:47	joshua-choi	Ah, I never realized that
02:47	psykotic	like i said, a vector of two elements: the first the integer it parsed (assuming success), and the second the remainder of the parsed string
02:47	joshua-choi	Well, I know about that—but I never thought about the list monad in that way
02:47	psykotic	hehe
02:48	Chousuke	heh
02:48	joshua-choi	Well, I'm actually not seeing how your code works
02:48	psykotic	it annoys me when people poo poo monad. they're not some crutch, they're an abstracting way of very common boilerplate patterns like this.
02:48	Chousuke	I wrote a toy monad implementation which allowed extending ISeq to the monad protocol:P
02:48	joshua-choi	It looks like it would return something like ([1 (3 2)] [3 (2)] [2 nil])
02:48	Chousuke	it was fun to write ((lift +) '(1 2) '(3 4))
02:49	psykotic	joshua-choi: here's a quick example.
02:49	psykotic	let's say the initial s is "42 8"
02:49	ynef	noidi: when I tried that with lists (sorry for the late response) rather than a map, it didn't work -- is that because lists are evaluated immediately and maps aren't or something?
02:49	psykotic	after binding [m s] (parse-number s), m would be 42 (the integer, not the string containing 42), and s would be " 8"
02:49	psykotic	after binding [n s] (parse-number s), n would be 8, and s would be ""
02:49	Chousuke	ynef: it's the other way usually.
02:49	psykotic	get it?
02:50	Chousuke	ynef: lists can actually be lazy sequences, maps can't
02:51	psykotic	chousuke: although i think there is a map implementation in contrib that has lazy values. (lazy keys aren't useful since any operation on a map requires forcing all keys).
02:51	ynef	Chousuke: ok, thank you :-)
02:51	ynef	I'm already learning a lot here :-)
02:52	joshua-choi	Hang on, sorry. Let's say (parse-number "32 1") returns [32 " 1"]. Shouldn't the for macro iterate over both 32 and " 1"?
02:52	psykotic	sorry, i should emphasize that these functions actually return _seqs_ of parses
02:53	psykotic	so in the case of an unambiguous parse, it would return [[32 " 1"]]
02:53	psykotic	in which case the 'for binding' is really the same as a let
02:53	psykotic	but when there are multiple parses, it tries all of them
02:53	joshua-choi	Oh, we're dealing with ambiguous grammars now. Yay. :P
02:53	psykotic	well, you mentioned you wanted to return a lazy seq of all parsers
02:54	joshua-choi	Ah, I was unclear
02:54	psykotic	err parses
02:54	joshua-choi	More in the vein of regular expressions
02:54	joshua-choi	As in...
02:54	psykotic	ah. yeah, that's somewhat different. :)
02:54	joshua-choi	(find parse-number "32astienrat1aienrsitenst5") -> (32 1 5)
02:55	joshua-choi	That would be the first step to...
02:56	joshua-choi	substitutions like (substitute inc parse-number "s32arsien5##2") -> (\s 33 \a \r ...)
02:56	joshua-choi	Someone actually requested that I implement something like that, like regexes
02:56	psykotic	right, i understand, the usual rex thing
02:56	joshua-choi	It's hard, though :(
02:56	psykotic	well, you can just try parsing starting at each prefix, et
02:56	psykotic	although it depends on whether you accept overlapping parses
02:57	joshua-choi	I don't want to do it at every character, though
02:57	joshua-choi	Yeah, no overlapping
02:57	joshua-choi	I don't think that's what's usually wanted
02:57	joshua-choi	So I was thinking that I'd have to use a state monad
02:57	psykotic	you never _need_ to use a state monad :)
02:58	psykotic	usually explicit threading (e.g. the usual tail-recursive accumulator pattern) is better, if it suffices
02:58	joshua-choi	Yeah...
02:58	joshua-choi	Yeah.
02:58	defn	im getting some really radically variable (time ...) results from a function... it is operating on the same data but still manages to jump between 0.5ms to 18.0ms
02:58	defn	even with successive calls, so the JVM should be primsed
02:58	joshua-choi	Are you using -server? :P
02:58	noidi	ynef, vectors can be used as functions, but lists can not
02:58	noidi	,([1 2 (+ 2 2)] 2)
02:58	clojurebot	4
02:58	psykotic	joshua-choi: anyway, i have to do some stuff, i'm sorry i rambled on this stuff with minimal relevance to your actual problem, as it turns out
02:58	noidi	,((list 1 2 (+ 2 2)) 2)
02:58	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
02:58	joshua-choi	No, it's fine
02:58	joshua-choi	You helped a lot
02:59	joshua-choi	Have a good night
02:59	joshua-choi	If that's where you live.
02:59	psykotic	i'm in bali right now, it's 3 pm :)
02:59	joshua-choi	Okay. Good day.
02:59	psykotic	later.
03:00	defn	from a performance standpoint should I be treating IPs as numbers or as strings?
03:01	Chousuke	I think usually they're stored as numbers, but of course you need the string representation sometimes
03:01	noidi	numbers are easier to validate
03:02	defn	im parsing from a logfile, so i need to have them as strings at first
03:02	defn	but im wondering if at a certain point it makes sense to turn them into numbers
03:02	Chousuke	if you're going to do any processing on them, then yes.
03:03	Chousuke	but if you're just reading and counting occurrences or collecting other stats, maybe not.
03:03	Chousuke	though numbers take up less space than strings
03:03	psykotic	defn: my answer would be, sequences of numbers :)
03:03	Chousuke	psykotic: actually an IP address is a single number. :/
03:04	defn	here's basically the problem im struggling with... i have a big 300MB logfile. I go through and create a lazy-seq of lines which contain the word "Deny", now I would like to find all of the unique IPs which have been denied, so I think I am planning on creating a set which contains all of the uniques in the collection, finally, I am going to create a map where the keys are all of the elements of that resulting set
03:04	psykotic	Chousuke: yeah, i guess storing 4 bytes is just base 256 and not much more useful than base 2 :)
03:04	defn	then i am going to go back through the original data before it was turned into a set, and add up the occurrences in the map
03:04	defn	does that sound like a good way to go about it or am I crazy?
03:05	Chousuke	why create a set? you could just create a map.
03:05	Chousuke	a key in a map is unique
03:05	defn	actually i dont think that's true
03:06	Chousuke	and if you need to associate data with it anyway, the set is kind of redundant.
03:06	defn	,{:a 1 :a 2 :b 3}
03:06	clojurebot	{:a 1, :a 2, :b 3}
03:06	psykotic	he's trying to count duplicates/uniques
03:06	Chousuke	defn: that's not a valid map
03:06	psykotic	i think you want a multimap/multiset
03:06	psykotic	fortunately it's easy to implement by just having sequences as keys
03:06	Chousuke	or a map of IP -> integer
03:06	psykotic	err, values
03:08	defn	http://gist.github.com/342052
03:09	defn	that's pretty much as far as I've gotten -- kind of sad really heh -- whenever i add maps into the mix thing sjust get dog slow
03:15	defn	idk, maybe im out of my league here
03:27	defn	Chousuke: any tips on implementing a multimap?
03:28	defn	ohhhh!!! I think I see...
03:29	defn	something like (defn add-to-multimap [multi key val] (assoc multi key (conj (get multimap key #{}) val))) ?
03:58	Mec	aside from the fact that print is a bad choice is there anything wrong with: (defmacro debug-> [& xs] `(-> ~@(interleave xs (repeat 'print))))
04:05	defn	sorry to be a bother, but anyone have any experience with multimaps and want to help me out for a moment?
04:09	Mec	My net crashed, did I actually send that last question?
04:10	defn	Mec you did
04:10	defn	aside from the fact that print is a bad choice...
04:11	defn	i wish i could help you, but you seem like you're probably better off without my help :)
04:11	Mec	lol ok
04:11	Mec	I dont have a clue what a multimap is so we're even ;p
04:13	defn	Mec -- im not 100% either ;)
04:13	defn	Mec: FWIW I think it works like this...
04:13	defn	,{:a 1 :a 2 :b 2}
04:13	clojurebot	{:a 1, :a 2, :b 2}
04:14	defn	having two :a keys is a bad thing for our map, so what a "multimap" allows us to do, is to give :a the values #{1, 2}
04:14	Mec	looks like you might be able to just make each key a set
04:14	defn	Mec: yeah i think that would be heavy handed though
04:15	defn	I'd like to keep a single unified sequence
04:15	defn	preferably a map
04:19	LauJensen	Morning gang
04:20	defn	hi LauJensen
04:21	defn	LauJensen: I'm struggling a bit with building something in clojure which will parse a 300MB logfile for IPs in a specific context in each line in the file, and then create a map which contains the unique IPs in a map, where the value of the unique IPs == the number of times the IP occurs in the file
04:21	defn	the file is approx 2,000,000 lines -- someone has suggested multimap, but im a bit fuzzy on implementation
04:22	LauJensen	Which part of the implementation is tricky ?
04:23	LauJensen	I mean, are you designing or have you something running but needs improving?
04:23	defn	i guess im just sort of stuck looking at stuart sierra's multimap code, not fully understanding it
04:23	defn	let me show you where im at currently...
04:23	LauJensen	Ok - I haven't checked it out myself. For 300 MB I would just go with a hash-map, would take 10 minutes to implement and 5 minutes to run
04:24	defn	LauJensen: http://gist.github.com/342095
04:24	Mec	ya a map of sets, thats what i was thinking
04:25	defn	if you could offer a "next step" given my current code, that'd be very much appreciated, even a minor tweak -- i think i need a break
04:25	LauJensen	ok, lemme look, M-x gist-fetch FTW!
04:26	defn	M-x gist-buffer :)
04:26	defn	err region in this case :)
04:26	Mec	How come you need a multimap if youre just tracking IP and count
04:26	LauJensen	Mec, not a map of sets, a map where the key is an int representing the IP and the value being the number of occurances
04:26	LauJensen	That would be most lean I think
04:26	Mec	Ya that would just be a regular map
04:26	LauJensen	Yep
04:27	defn	LauJensen: my feeling was that it would break given:
04:27	defn	,{:a 1 :a 2 :b 2 :c 3}
04:27	clojurebot	{:a 1, :a 2, :b 2, :c 3}
04:27	defn	the multiple keys sort of scared me
04:27	defn	so i was led to multimaps/sets
04:27	hiredman	defn: why would you need a multimap
04:28	hiredman	defn: that is a, uh, bit of undefined behaviour in arraymap
04:28	hiredman	you should never have the same key multiple times in a map literal
04:29	LauJensen	defn: http://gist.github.com/342097
04:29	hiredman	I'd suggest parsing using a line seq, then process the line-seq
04:29	LauJensen	I think you were over complicating. If you check out that simple formula, you can pass that a seq of the IPs and it will give you a map counting the number of occurances
04:30	hiredman	,(merge-with + {"10.0.0.1" 1} {"10.0.0.1" 1})
04:30	clojurebot	{"10.0.0.1" 2}
04:31	LauJensen	defn: and that make-seq-of-IPs could just be your re-find statement
04:31	LauJensen	Would that work for you ?
04:33	lpetit	hello all
04:34	LauJensen	Morning lpetit
04:35	lpetit	Morning Lau Jensen
04:38	defn	LauJensen: sorry, im back -- looking...
04:43	defn	LauJensen: so in my code this would look something like (defn to-counted-map [] (reduce #(assoc %1 %2 (inc (get %1 %2 0))) {} (parse-outside-ips (find-lines-in-file "Deny tcp src outside" logfile))))
04:44	defn	LauJensen: that code is a lot faster than i had imagined...
04:44	LauJensen	So you're up and running?
04:45	defn	I crashed my emacs, but it looks like it worked beautifully
04:45	defn	I will probably try something to increase performance somehow
04:45	LauJensen	Great
04:45	defn	Thanks much -- I'm surprised it was so simple :\
04:46	LauJensen	300Mb shouldn't be a problem, in my climate program (IIRC) nearly 50 GB were cooked down to a map which all came through a single reduce
04:46	LauJensen	(I'll admit, that could be optimized) :)
04:48	defn	I guess I've just seen things like ato's widefinder 2 implementation
04:48	defn	and it makes me want to optimize the hell out of things
04:49	LauJensen	I'll put my vote on the Optimize-Only-When-u-need-to strategy - its a tedious task
04:49	LauJensen	And for something which need to go very fast, you need to mutate and I'd like to avoid that 99.99% of the time
04:57	defn	Evaluation aborted that time...
04:58	spariev	is it true that with protocols it will be possible to monkeypatch existing java classes ?
04:58	LauJensen	defn: I think you'd want something between -Xmx768m and -Xmx1024m at the very least
04:59	defn	LauJensen: Xmx?
04:59	psykotic	spariev: no monkeypatching is involved, but there is open extensibility, yes, and in a much more controlled form than what passes for open extensibility in the ruby and javascript world.
05:00	LauJensen	defn: java -Xms512m -Xmx1024m -cp clojure.jar clojure.main yourscript.clj
05:00	LauJensen	That'll give you 512 MB of Ram to start out with, and allow it to grow to 1 Gb
05:00	defn	ah ha, thanks LauJensen
05:01	spariev	psykotic: great! I should upgrade to 1.2 and add all c.c.strings fns to java.lang.String :)
05:03	defn	LauJensen: would it make sense to use something like atoms to speed this up?
05:04	Mec	i have 2 macros: `(a b) and `(c b) is there a way to abstract out that the only difference is the first symbol (which is a macro)
05:04	LauJensen	defn: You're reading from a single file and everything is going through the same reduce pass, so if you want to speed it up, either paralleize that reducer pass, or make 2 - 4 chunks of the file and then finish with (merge-with + chunks)
05:05	defn	yeah i was thinking about chunking
05:05	defn	LauJensen: thanks again for all the help
05:05	defn	i know it's sort of a boring topic :\
05:05	LauJensen	not at all - and it was np to help :)
05:24	defn	how do i change the key in a map
05:25	psykotic	defn: you can dissoc/assoc
05:26	LauJensen	defn: sure you need to ?
05:26	defn	LauJensen: well, im going to go through every value in the resulting map that we created above, and get the geolocation of the IP from a binary DB
05:27	LauJensen	Yea?
05:27	defn	id'd like to have the IP, country code, and number of occurrences -- obviously i cant have all three in the map, right?
05:27	defn	maybe a second map makes more sense
05:28	LauJensen	defn: depending a little on the size of the map, I think it makes sense to associate those data with the IP itself
05:28	defn	could you show me what the structure would look like in your mind?
05:29	defn	{{:code :ip} 5}
05:29	defn	something like that?
05:29	LauJensen	{:127.0.0.1 {:country "DK" :x y :z 3}}
05:30	defn	ah right
05:30	LauJensen	(assoc-in m [:127.0.0.1 :country] "DK")
05:32	defn	LauJensen: wow you rule.
05:32	LauJensen	hehe :)
05:33	Licenser1	u
05:34	defn	uh oh Licenser_ is here
05:34	defn	;)
05:34	Licenser_	hi defn
05:34	defn	good morning
05:35	spariev	what's the most up to date tutorial on developing appengine apps with clojure/compojure ?
05:35	Licenser_	defn: I read your query and I know the 'problem'
05:37	defn	Licenser_: cool -- i figured you would since it looks related to the sandbox :)
05:41	Mec	How do you cast an object to a string?
05:41	spariev	,(str 123)
05:41	clojurebot	"123"
05:42	Mec	well duh
05:42	spariev	but it's not exactly a cast
05:42	spariev	more like Java's toString()
05:50	defn	I keep getting a no matching method found for getCountry for class com.maxmind.geoip.LookupService
05:52	LauJensen	How are you calling it?
05:53	psykotic	defn: make sure you're passing the right argument. the compiler isn't very specific about what 'no match' means. it could mean no method by that name, or that the name exists but no overload of the right signature exists.
05:53	Licenser_	defn: the problem is that if the method you look for themself fail the sandbox nothing is found
05:54	defn	I (:import [com.maxmind.geoip LookupService]) (def database (LookupService. database-path))
05:55	defn	then (defn country-code [#^String ip] (-> database (getCountry ip) (.getCode)))
05:55	defn	err .getCountry ip
05:57	LauJensen	Have you tried manually calling (.getCountry li "Googles ip") ?
05:57	defn	Oh yeah definitely, it runs fine in that context
05:57	defn	(.getCountry "200.200.200.200") => "XYZ"
05:57	defn	errr (country-code "x.x.x.x") => "XYZ"
05:58	defn	it seems like it might be a thread issue
05:58	_mst	is ip definitely a string? not a keyword or something?
05:58	defn	_mst: could that produce a no matching method?
05:58	_mst	the wrong argument type could, yep
05:59	defn	I mean, I created this sequence, and it doesn't seem likely
05:59	LauJensen	defn, that was psykotics point
05:59	_mst	yeah, just saw Lau's example above using a keyword. Wasn't sure if that's what you were doing too
05:59	LauJensen	,(name :127.0.0.1)
05:59	clojurebot	"127.0.0.1"
05:59	defn	it is a massive sequence though, it's possible one of the strings in the sequence is screwy
06:00	Mec	is it bad form to error check by exception rather than using if ;p
06:00	LauJensen	(try (get-country...) (catch Exception e "NO COUNTRY"))
06:01	defn	where are try/catch?
06:01	LauJensen	in cor
06:01	LauJensen	e
06:02	defn	1.1.0? I don't have either of them :X
06:02	LauJensen	,(try (/ 5 0) (catch Exception e "Div by Zer0"))
06:02	clojurebot	LauJensen: Pardon?
06:02	LauJensen	eh
06:03	LauJensen	They have been around as special forms for over a year
06:06	lpetit	,(doc try)
06:06	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
06:08	defn	my mistake LauJensen && Company -- for some reason swank doesn't complete on those
06:08	LauJensen	ok, I wonder what clojure bots problem is
06:09	spariev	try is a special form
06:09	psykotic	LauJensen: de er skoere, de gallere
06:09	lpetit	,(doc def)
06:09	clojurebot	DENIED
06:09	lpetit	,(doc fn)
06:09	clojurebot	"([& sigs]); (fn name? [params* ] exprs) (fn name? ([params ] exprs)+) params => positional-params , or positional-params* & next-param positional-param => binding-form next-param => binding-form name => symbol Defines a function"
06:10	lpetit	fn is a special form, non ?
06:10	Mec	fn is just a macro
06:10	defn	,(doc pre)
06:10	clojurebot	I don't understand.
06:10	lpetit	a special form currently implemented as a macro, I guess
06:11	lpetit	,(doc loop)
06:11	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); Evaluates the exprs in a lexical context in which the symbols in the binding-forms are bound to their respective init-exprs or parts therein. Acts as a recur target."
06:11	lpetit	,(meta (var loop))
06:11	clojurebot	{:macro true, :ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name loop, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 2985, :arglists ([bindings & body]), :doc "Evaluates the exprs in a lexical context in which the symbols in\n the binding-forms are bound to their respective init-exprs or parts\n therein. Acts as a recur target."}
06:11	lpetit	,(meta (var fn))
06:11	clojurebot	{:macro true, :ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name fn, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 2931, :arglists ([& sigs]), :doc "(fn name? [params* ] exprs)\n (fn name? ([params ] exprs)+)\n\n params => positional-params , or positional-params* & next-param\n positional-param => binding-form\n next-param => binding-form\n name => symbol\n\n Defines a function"}
06:12	lpetit	,(source fn)
06:12	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
06:12	lpetit	ok ok
06:12	Mec	,(clojure.contrib.repl-utils/source fn)
06:12	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/fn
06:13	Mec	weird
06:14	LauJensen	~source fn
06:14	defn	,(assoc-in {"1" 4 "2" 8} ["1" :country] "US")
06:14	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Associative
06:15	defn	,(assoc-in {:x 4 :y 8} [:x :country] "US")
06:15	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Associative
06:15	defn	,(assoc-in #{:x 4 :y 8} [:x :country] "US")
06:15	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Associative
06:15	defn	bah
06:16	LauJensen	,(assoc-in {:127.0.0.1 {:country nil :code 404}} [:127.0.0.1 :country] "DK")
06:16	clojurebot	{:127.0.0.1 {:country "DK", :code 404}}
06:16	LauJensen	If you're not doing a nested call, use assoc, if its a nested structure, use *-in
06:17	defn	well it wasn't a nested structure, before, but now i need it to be
06:18	Licenser_	clicki :D
06:20	licoresse	I am looking for a swank-clojure library that allows me to dump strings onto a console in emacs for debugging purposes
06:20	licoresse	is there such a thing?
06:20	LauJensen	,(let [m {:127.0.0.1 5} ip :127.0.0.1] (assoc m ip {:occurences (ip m) :country "DK"}))
06:20	clojurebot	{:127.0.0.1 {:occurences 5, :country "DK"}}
06:22	defn	LauJensen: my god man i need to sleep this is getting worse and worse
06:22	defn	i think ive done this before 3-4 times
06:22	LauJensen	slept?
06:22	LauJensen	:)
06:22	defn	in the last 7 days yeah ;)
06:22	LauJensen	Ok, go to sleep, nothing worse than trying to code when the brain isn't playing along
06:23	defn	nod
06:23	defn	see you all in a bit
06:23	noidi	licoresse, I don't have an answer for that question, but this might be relevant http://
06:23	noidi	measuringmeasures.blogspot.com/2010/01/agony-of-clojurehadoop-logging-
06:23	noidi	http://measuringmeasures.blogspot.com/2010/01/agony-of-clojurehadoop-logging-and-how.html
06:23	licoresse	nodidi: thanks, I think something like that could be useful!
06:27	noidi	licoresse, but basically if you println from the main thread, it is shown on the slime repl in emacs, and printlns from other threads go to the terminal in which you ran "lein swank"
06:28	licoresse	I don't use lein swank, might be worth a try
06:28	licoresse	but, println does not emit anything on my repl
06:29	noidi	licoresse, then check the buffer called inferior-lisp
06:29	licoresse	noidi: oh, it does!
06:30	licoresse	:)
06:30	licoresse	great!
06:31	licoresse	and all those exceptions! good stuff, now I am not blind
06:31	noidi	hehe
06:31	defn	clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry
06:31	defn	what could cause that?
06:36	hoeck	defn: ,(key {})
06:36	hoeck	,(key {})
06:36	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry
06:37	defn	crap
06:38	licoresse	This system is making me SO HAPPY!!
06:41	powr-toc	Is clojure.org hosted on wikispaces?
07:16	Mec	Whats the best way to wait a certain amount of time and then do something?
07:19	Mec	oh nvm think i got it
07:20	SynrG	curious. my jline history has some nulls in it for clojure and when i uparrow to those it messes up where jline thinks the cursor is (off by one for each null encountered)
07:20	SynrG	how'd they get in there and how can i prevent this?
07:21	Licenser_	darn :(
07:24	Licenser_	hmm I've found a very sneaky problem
07:25	Licenser_	(read-string) only reads the first s-exp of a string, is there any way to read all of them?
07:27	esj	slightly off topic - but what do you guys use to format somebody else's html ? I'm trying to scrape a page and want to figure our the logical structure, but the text itself is. Emacs html mode doesn't seem to have an auto-format !
07:28	Licenser_	esj: I simply don't :P
07:28	spariev	Licenser_: maybe wrap whole string in parens ?
07:29	esj	Licenser_: i like your solution
07:30	spariev	,(read-string "(+ 1 2) (- 3 2)")
07:30	clojurebot	(+ 1 2)
07:30	spariev	,(read-string "((+ 1 2) (- 3 2))")
07:30	clojurebot	((+ 1 2) (- 3 2))
07:33	Licenser_	esj: thank you :)
07:33	Licenser_	spariev: but that alters the code sadly
07:37	spariev	,(doc read)
07:37	clojurebot	"([] [stream] [stream eof-error? eof-value] [stream eof-error? eof-value recursive?]); Reads the next object from stream, which must be an instance of java.io.PushbackReader or some derivee. stream defaults to the current value of in ."
07:38	spariev	maybe you could try to wrap string in PushbackReader and feed it to read, then
07:39	Licenser_	spariev: nods that is my current atempt just that I have to handle the EOF error :P but thanks to your nice doc it seems I can skil this
07:39	Licenser_	skip
07:39	noidi	what's wrong with wrapping the string in parens?
07:40	noidi	it doesn't really alter the code, as you always get a list and always iterate through the items
07:40	noidi	so each item still appears as it was
07:41	noidi	,(str (read-string "foo bar"))
07:41	clojurebot	"foo"
07:41	noidi	,(map str (read-string "(foo bar)"))
07:41	clojurebot	("foo" "bar")
07:43	Licenser_	hmm I am not entirely sure what is the best aproach for a general sandbox
07:43	Licenser_	hmm hmm hmmm
07:43	Licenser_	but with () it weould try to evaluate the first expression as function
07:44	spariev	it just reads it, not evaluate
07:45	Licenser_	yes but next part is to evaluate it :P
07:46	hoeck	just (map eval ....) to evaluate all toplevel forms ?!
07:48	defn	http://inspiration.sweyla.com/code/
07:48	defn	very nice
07:48	licoresse	When running lein jar I get this clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Named error, but no indication where the error occured other than inside compiler.java, is there a way to get a more descriptive message from lein, or something else?
07:49	hoeck	Licenser_: load does sth. along the lines of: http://gist.github.com/342217 (no need to wrap the string in parens)
07:50	licoresse	ls
07:51	Licenser_	hoeck: I figured to solve it on application level instead of library level
07:51	Licenser_	the sandbox tax a s-exp period
07:51	Licenser_	if you have more then on in you source you've to deal with that
07:52	Licenser_	since only the application can actually know how to handle this
07:52	licoresse	my project.clj file could have some nonsense, need to read on that...
07:57	licoresse	of course it was riddled with nonsense, never mind...
07:58	arnihermann	Can someone take a look at this macro weirdness: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/193221/
07:59	arnihermann	I can't figure out why it's trying to resolve a symbol
07:59	arnihermann	which is inside a map
07:59	Mec	I'm playing around with clipboard manipulation, anyone know what might be wrong with http://gist.github.com/342221
08:00	psykotic	why does clojure does quasiquoting in the reader?
08:00	psykotic	it makes advanced macro-writing macros using nested quasiquotes a bit of a problem
08:00	Chousuke	psykotic: it's easier
08:01	Chousuke	psykotic: implementing syntax-quote as a macro is rather problematic
08:01	Chousuke	psykotic: at least, difficult enough that I gave up trying to do it :P
08:02	Chousuke	psykotic: I kept finding more and more corner cases.
08:02	psykotic	no-one said it was easy but there are papers out there like alan bawden's that everyone has read
08:02	psykotic	okay, maybe not everyone, but the semantics are well documented by now
08:03	Chousuke	syntax-quote does autogensyms and namespace resolution though.
08:03	psykotic	autogensyms is a 15 line macro
08:04	psykotic	in fact, i'm trying to implement it right now as a demonstration, and i'm running up against the apparent lack of support for properly nested quasiquotes
08:04	Chousuke	might be. though I ran into some nesting issues when I implemented it.
08:05	Chousuke	namespace resolution was horror though
08:05	psykotic	yeah, i can imagine that might be the tough part
08:05	Chousuke	I think I have that stuff on github somewhere
08:06	psykotic	right now i've been doing the ~'foo thing explicitly to punt on it
08:07	Chousuke	http://github.com/Chousuke/clojure/blob/clojure-reader/src/clj/clojure/lang/reader/internal.clj
08:08	Chousuke	that probably could be simplified considerably but hm
08:08	Chousuke	that's just the function version that the reader uses. as a macro, it just doesn't work.
08:09	arnihermann	can anyone figure out why clojure tries to resolve key in a map from inside a macro: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/193221/
08:10	Chousuke	you're doing (symbol ":" ...)
08:11	arnihermann	ah
08:11	arnihermann	crap
08:11	Chousuke	the :y in the expansion is not a keyword, it's a symbol
08:11	arnihermann	I always fall into that trap
08:11	arnihermann	right
08:11	arnihermann	thanks
08:11	arnihermann	this is the second time in 2 days or so
08:11	arnihermann	I manage to pull something like this off :)
08:11	Chousuke	also the double parens after the and look suspicious
08:12	Chousuke	it'll probably be your next error :)
08:12	Chousuke	you probably meant to type (and ~@constraints)?
08:13	arnihermann	yup
08:13	arnihermann	Chousuke: indeed
08:13	arnihermann	thanks :)
08:14	hoeck	Mec: mind to paste more context, e.g. your imports and the Exception you get or a description of what went wrong?
08:14	Mec	hoeck: sure 1 sec
08:17	licoresse	my project depends on some bitmaps, can these be included in the jar using lein?
08:18	Mec	hoeck: http://gist.github.com/342221
08:19	licoresse	perhaps this is what :resources-path is used for?
08:26	defn	At work on my laptop with 1/4th as much RAM and half as many cores I am able to run some code in my REPL, but when I get home and try to run the same thing I get Java Heap Space
08:27	Mec	Must be running different jvm settings
08:28	defn	Is there any way to specify what slime uses?
08:29	hoeck	m-x customize-group swank-clojure
08:30	Mec	no match
08:31	hoeck	or m-x customize-variable swank-clojure-extra-vm-args
08:31	hoeck	and then set it to (list "-Xmx1G")
08:32	hoeck	(for 1 gig)
08:32	hoeck	but works only if you start clojure from within emacs, don't know how lein handles it
08:32	defn	Debugger entered--Lisp error: (void-variable -Xmx1G)
08:32	defn	you sure?
08:33	defn	oh nvm im sorry
08:33	defn	you said (list "...")
08:34	Mec	Is there any way to see if that setting is being applied?
08:34	defn	we'll know on my next run ;)
08:35	hoeck	Mec: jvisualvm show the jvm args, and maybe there is a System/getProperties entry which shows them too
08:36	hoeck	Mec: your setContent code somehow works, at least after a call to .getContent a different Transferable is returned
08:36	fogus	Mec: Thanks for the catch on my blog post. (that was you no?)
08:37	Mec	fogus: yes indeed, the same error was at the bottom but I didnt notice that one :D
08:38	hoeck	Mec: oh, it actually works, it clears my clipboard (running jdk6 + ubuntu)
08:38	Mec	hoeck: weird, it doesnt do anything on windows jdk6
08:38	defn	Mec: that setting is definitely being applied
08:39	defn	I was barely cracking 200MB before and now it baloons up to 400 when the time is right
08:39	hoeck	but it appears not to work within emacs, as emacs has its own yank-buffer and mostly ignores the clipboard or caches it
08:40	Mec	oh maybe thats why
08:40	Mec	Wow, it does work outside of emacs
08:40	SynrG	nobody have ideas about why jline in my repl has nulls at the ends of some lines, messing up cursor positioning?
08:41	Mec	hoeck: thanks, i would have never thought to check it outside of emacs
08:41	SynrG	it's really annoying
08:42	hoeck	Mec: yw
08:43	Mec	in a ns def can you do (import ...) or does it have to be (:import ...)
08:43	hoeck	SynrG: mhh, different encodings between your shell and clojure?
08:44	SynrG	locale says en_CA.UTF-8 ...
08:44	Chousuke	java has its own encoding
08:45	SynrG	gnome-terminal says UTF-8 ...
08:45	SynrG	where does it determine encoding?
08:45	Chousuke	it's some property which I can't remember
08:45	Chousuke	file.encoding perhaps?
08:45	Chousuke	,(System/getProperty "file.encoding")
08:45	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.util.PropertyPermission file.encoding read)
08:45	Chousuke	damn :P
08:46	Mec	Mine says "Cp1252"
08:46	Chousuke	you can change it on java startup via -Dfile.encoding=...
08:47	SynrG	mine says UTF-8
08:47	SynrG	so i think all is well
08:47	SynrG	any other ideas?
08:47	SynrG	when i check the jline history file for clojure ...
08:48	SynrG	some lines have a single null at the end of them
08:48	defn	oh god thank you for showing me the jvm settings
08:48	SynrG	if i up-arrow to that line, the cursor is now off by one
08:48	defn	this is so much less painful
08:48	SynrG	the end of the line is the only place i have ever seen these nulls
08:48	licoresse	defn: when searching this channel, I saw that you had a question regarding where to put images/pictures when using leiningen, did you figure that out?
08:48	SynrG	and only on two out of several lines. i have no idea what might have caused them :(
08:49	defn	licoresse: IIRC the resources dir is not working per technomancy
08:49	licoresse	defn: I see, any workarounds?
08:50	defn	i havent looked into it to be honest, things may have changed recently
08:50	defn	,(first {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})
08:50	clojurebot	[:a 1]
08:51	licoresse	defn: ok, I'll keep searching
08:51	defn	Can assoc/disassoc be mapped over a map?
08:52	defn	or does the [:a 1] upset it somehow?
08:54	Mec	seems like filter would be more natural, what are you trying to do?
08:55	defn	Mec: take a very large map like: {"some-key" 5...} and turn it into {"some-key" {:count 5 :other-val 3}...}
08:57	Mec	(reduce (fn [m [k v]] (assoc m generate-sub-map)) {} your-large-map)
08:57	defn	I'm doing something like: (map #((let [mykey (first %) cnt (rest %)] (assoc % mykey {:count cnt :other-val (some-fn mykey)}))
08:59	Mec	ok (Reduce (fn [m [mykey cnt]] (assoc m mykey {:count cnt :other-val (some-fn mykey)})) {} your-map)
08:59	Mec	and that will give you a resulting map, rather then a seq of maps
09:01	defn	Mec: thanks so much that's exactly what I've been trying to put together
09:06	Licenser_	there we go
09:06	defn	Mec: would it be too much to ask you to explain how that is put together? namely that destructuring...
09:06	Licenser_	clicky is waaay better now
09:06	defn	Licenser_: linki?
09:06	Licenser_	http://82.210.31.97:8080/
09:06	Licenser_	my playground!
09:07	Chousuke	(into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k {:count v :upcase (.toUpperCase k)}]) {"foo" 3, "zonk" 4}))
09:07	Chousuke	,(into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k {:count v :upcase (.toUpperCase k)}]) {"foo" 3, "zonk" 4}))
09:07	clojurebot	{"foo" {:count 3, :upcase "FOO"}, "zonk" {:count 4, :upcase "ZONK"}}
09:07	Chousuke	using into is preferable to reduce because you get transients for free :)
09:08	Mec	I thought into was only good for 2 maps
09:08	Mec	oh nvm, misread it
09:08	Chousuke	into just conjs every item in a sequence into whatever you give as a first arg
09:09	Chousuke	and [k v] is a map entry
09:09	Chousuke	,(conj {} [:foo 'bar])
09:09	clojurebot	{:foo bar}
09:09	seths	anyone for/against a clojure-dev discussion on reducing the difficulty getting started with Clojure?
09:09	defn	,(let [a [:b :c]])
09:09	clojurebot	nil
09:09	defn	,(let [a [:b :c]] a)
09:09	clojurebot	[:b :c]
09:09	seths	that seemed to be the main point behind the "chosen not to employ..." flashpoint
09:10	seths	it seems like everyone is reimplementing bin/clj [.sh\|.bat]
09:10	seths	it might be nice to include a basic one (with jline!) as part of a download
09:11	Mec	clojure needs a simple editor written in clojure for noobies
09:11	seths	Mec: even before you get into the editor tho
09:11	defn	ive heard good things about enclojure and clojurex
09:11	Chousuke	Mec: I think that's false.
09:11	Chousuke	Mec: good integration with existing editors is much more important.
09:11	Mec	I've never used netbeans or enclojure or emacs, so i was kind of sunk until i spent a week learning emacs
09:12	Chousuke	people are already likely to use them, and introducing another editor is just a waste of time
09:12	seths	I would dearly love to see a kitchen-sink download for Clojure 1.2
09:12	Licenser_	the 'choosen not to employ' stuff was half bogus, I remember back when PHP was fresh it was a minor hell to get it running with apache and mysql propperly
09:12	seths	including bin/clj with contrib & jline
09:12	Chousuke	if they are not using one of the well-integrated editors, then they have an incentive to learn one :)
09:12	seths	possibly also copy of the docs
09:13	Chousuke	Licenser_: I thought it had some good points, but they were all horribly presented
09:13	seths	java -cp clojure.jar is great, but it's a little too simple maybe?
09:13	Mec	by all means there should be good integration, but having to learn to use a massive system just to start hacking isnt very fun
09:13	Licenser_	Chousuke: it had some horrible points but this one wasn't good, at least the example was very flawed
09:13	Licenser_	clojure apps are incredible easy to deplay way easyer then any other application I know of
09:13	Chousuke	Licenser_: also the fact that he announced he would ignore all replies sounded rather arrogant to me.
09:14	defn	I think part of the problem is that so many of the people who use currently use clojure are a) people who know how to teach themselves, hence emacs has not been a large barrier for a majority of the community. b) the tools that already existed in other editors, while somewhat quirky to setup for someone brand new to clojure, have a host of tools that is just hard to find in same mix in other editors
09:14	Licenser_	there is little easyer deployment as lein uberjar; java -jar app-standalone.jar
09:14	seths	Licenser_: not so
09:14	Chousuke	Licenser_: uberjar creates bloat though ;(
09:15	seths	or partly not so, Lein is still awkward on windows
09:15	Chousuke	Licenser_: might not be bad for a one-off deployment but it's not fit for distribution
09:15	Mec	I'm dreading when i finally finish my program here and try to get it actually deployable
09:15	Licenser_	you also can just copy the content of lib
09:15	defn	i didnt know to run standalone at first -- i think that's a bit confusing to newbies. i think it's also confusing to use java -jar xxx.jar, it seems sort of archaic even if it would be in many minds superfluous to include a bash script or something to launch java -jar app-standalone.jar
09:16	Licenser_	and yes lein is horrible to use on windows, but nearly everything is
09:16	Chousuke	Licenser_: unless, perhaps, you want to create some kind of a self-contained "platform" that is supposed to be updated as one.
09:16	seths	yes, but manual dependency management is awful
09:16	defn	"patches welcome"
09:16	Chousuke	It's sad that maven seems to be the best tool around to handle dependecies ;/
09:16	defn	;)
09:16	Chousuke	it's so damned verbose.
09:16	Licenser_	Chousuke which is a good practice to guarantee compatibility and effects
09:16	seths	Chousuke: polyglot maven looked interesting
09:17	seths	http://polyglot.sonatype.org/clojure.html
09:17	Chousuke	and it fills the repository with all kinds of crap and doesn't provide means of trimming it, as far as I can tell.
09:17	seths	the "pom.xml" looks like a lein project.clj
09:17	defn	what makes dependency management so difficult -- why doesn't the clojars/lein combo work the same way things like ruby/gems/rake work?
09:17	Chousuke	defn: it does, doesn't it?
09:17	defn	well, sort of
09:18	Licenser_	defn rubygems are great but also not perfect
09:18	Chousuke	defn: it downloads deps using maven.
09:18	Licenser_	one problem is that maven can be confusing
09:18	chouser	maven ant tasks, which is not maven itself I think
09:18	Licenser_	and that - as so foten - documentation is sparse for lots of stuff
09:19	defn	Sort of ironic all the incidental complexity is in the configuration of your build environment...
09:20	Chousuke	I think maven should be good enough for Clojure use in the java world but some work on polyglot definitely needs to be done.
09:20	seths	defn: rake & gem would be more awkward if they were OS-specific scripts like lein
09:20	Licenser_	what would be good is a one shot installer for clojure that gets you running like clojure box
09:20	Licenser_	lein goes a long way but that it requires internet is .. ann oying
09:21	seths	Licenser_: I'm all for a one shot installer, but that's a large task
09:21	Licenser_	yes I know but it'd be good
09:21	seths	a zip file with bin/clj and contrib/jline on the classpath would be a nice midpoint
09:21	Licenser_	something that is like 1 file that gives you bin/clj bin/lein perhaps even emacs or something
09:22	seths	ClojureBox is that sort of thing for Windows
09:22	Chousuke	a Clojure "SDK" installer could come with a dependency on maven (or bundle it) and some custom wrapper to provide access to common functionality with a more clojure-focused interface.
09:22	rrc7cz-hm	has anyone looked at Ivy for dep management?
09:22	seths	Chousuke: I like the "sdk" term
09:22	chouser	jline has caused some people problems. I think a little GUI editor+REPL with contrib loaded would be nice.
09:23	Licenser_	well rubygems is su successfull since it lets you really manage deps with close to no hassle
09:23	Chousuke	seths: need something to differentiate from just installing the clojure core libraries
09:23	chouser	But I need to look at labrepl -- that may be better
09:23	Licenser_	I still find leiningen way more complicated, error prone
09:23	Chousuke	seths: that would be the CRE :P
09:23	seths	Chousuke: CRE? sorry
09:23	Chousuke	a pun on JRE
09:23	seths	:-)
09:23	seths	chouser: labrepl is a lein app
09:23	seths	it's nice, the mini-browser demos very well
09:23	defn	leiningen is really nice. it's great. i think it still has a lot of potential. it just needs TLC. How long has it been around, anyhow?
09:24	chouser	defn: about 3 weeks
09:24	chouser	:-)
09:24	Chousuke	I think leiningen could be retrofitted to work completely on top of maven though
09:24	chouser	Chousuke: have you seen polyglot maven?
09:24	Chousuke	so even if you were to promote use of maven there's no need to just throw away lein
09:24	Chousuke	chouser: yes
09:25	cemerick	ah, I was about to beat that dead horse
09:25	Licenser_	the question is, is maven good?
09:25	chouser	Licenser_: perhaps. Or maybe the question is: what's better than maven?
09:25	cemerick	Licenser_: almost like asking, is the jvm good?
09:25	Chousuke	Licenser_: It's rather verbose but it's probably better than anything we can come up with by ourselves :P
09:25	seths	rrc7cz-hm: never looked at Ivy, what is it built on?
09:26	Chousuke	Licenser_: and with polyglot people with XML-allergy can also use it.
09:26	defn	Chousuke: you're a bigger man than i for admitting it
09:26	Licenser_	Chousuke: I'm not sure I'd like a gem like solution more\
09:26	Chousuke	I'm not really familiar with ruby gems
09:26	defn	i've always liked ruby gems
09:26	Chousuke	in my mind it basically does what maven does.
09:26	seths	I looked at clojuresque a bit last night, not sure I like mixing Groovy into this discussion tho
09:27	Licenser_	Chousuke: it can do a bit more, you canspecify versions directly in your code, keeps stuff in a global place isntead of adding a gazillion libs to a folder and stuff like that
09:27	SynrG	new information on my jline problem. it's not that nulls in the history cause the problem. it's that just exercising the arrow keys a lot eventually causes the problem. somehow a null is introduced, and then i'm left on a line that looks corrupted, and when i press enter on that line (which previously was valid) i get an exception
09:27	seths	defn: gems are pretty mature, even platform specific gems work out pretty well
09:27	defn	im far less familiar with maven than rubygems -- it was just such an easy to use thing when i started playing with gems.
09:27	Chousuke	Licenser_: versions how, exactly? :/
09:27	SynrG	so the nulls are an effect, not a cause
09:28	Chousuke	Licenser_: and you can have a systemwide repository with maven too
09:28	Licenser_	Chousuke: of a library
09:28	Licenser_	I can say something like (syntax m ight be off) require mylib, ">1.0.0"
09:28	seths	anyone tried http://freshmeat.net/projects/rlwrap instead of jline?
09:28	sattvik	For linux-based users, one very important thing is to integrate well into their chosen distribution. For Gentoo, a source-based distribution, maven has been a huge problem for integrating Java apps and libraries.
09:28	Chousuke	Licenser_: ah, well, that's ruby-specific I guess.
09:28	Licenser_	Chousuke: but as soon as I do lein deps it stuffs everything I need or it thinks I mighyt need when my grandmother dies next sunday in lib/
09:29	Chousuke	Licenser_: that's lein, not maven :/
09:29	Licenser_	Chousuke: why, I find it quite generic. if I've a library and know my application works with version 1.0.0-1.2.0 I should be able to say I tepend on this versions
09:29	sattvik	Ultimately, Linux users probably want to install Clojure application similarly to other packages in their system.
09:30	Licenser_	gems allow executables
09:30	Licenser_	I can do say: gem install coderay
09:30	Licenser_	then I have a coderay executable I can use
09:30	Licenser_	another cool thing
09:30	defn	gem install somegem, emacsclient "myfile.rb", require 'somegem', Blah.methods -- by contrast -- read disclojure.org, search on clojars.org, page through github, install leiningen, edit project clj, lein deps, lein repl, (use 'how.do.i.include.this.with.no.java.namespace.experience)
09:30	SynrG	aha! more specifically ...
09:31	rrc7cz-hm	seths: it's an apache project, much like Maven but without all the project management stuff. It's pure dep management. I haven't worked with it, but anyone looking for a maven alternative certainly should
09:31	defn	some of that is just a part of these tools not having been around long enough, but the pain points on the clojure side far outweigh the ease of getting started with a funky library in ruby
09:31	SynrG	1. in repl with jline support, up-arrow twice. left-arrow to go back one character. now down-arrow, up-arrow, down-arrow again. each time i do that, the lines get progressively more corrupted.
09:32	seths	rrc7cz-hm: thx, I'll check Ivy out some more
09:32	rrc7cz-hm	seths: the key thing is that it can draw from Maven repos natively, so it shouldn't set you back
09:32	Licenser_	gem list --remote alib > lists versions of this lib I can get; another nice feature
09:32	SynrG	can anyone reproduce this? clojure 1.1, jline 0.9.94
09:32	Licenser_	I see why maven has an advantage, it lets you include java stuff too
09:33	cemerick	defn: insofar as clojure is a JVM environment, that will be the case.
09:33	Licenser_	but it isn't nice, people want nice, one of the biggest reasons for ruby's sucecss is that a lot of stuff is just dead simple. Clojure is like that in some points but dep management is certenly not the case
09:34	Licenser_	I was trying to get a compojure app running yesterday I was trying like an houre to find the right versionm of the compojure jar and all the deps for it
09:34	defn	cemerick: I disagree that some of that is necessary.
09:34	Licenser_	that is just a situation that is unbarable in a long run
09:34	seths	hmm: http://ant.apache.org/ivy/history/2.0.0/release-notes.html
09:34	drewr	ruby's dep management is not any easier than clojure's, IMO
09:34	Licenser_	I want to do lein dep compojure -> gets me compojure and all the required libs for that
09:34	seths	drewr: how so?
09:34	cemerick	defn: given typical tools, certainly not. Rubbing together twigs with a command line is another story.
09:34	seths	cemerick: lol
09:35	SynrG	whatever it is, it's not just the repl. in jirb i can eventually cause the problem too.
09:35	Licenser_	drewr: I can do gem install rails and I get all I nee.
09:35	Chousuke	Licenser_: that can still be built on top of maven.
09:35	sattvik	I'd rather use Ivy than Maven. Maven is simply too bloated. The whole "downloading the Internet" is a bit of a put-off just to get a few JARs. And that's if your lucky. What if you are behind a firewall or proxy? Also, from a corporate development point of view, a lot of IT staff won't be happy with software that installs and updates other software automatically.
09:35	cemerick	seths: FYI, ivy is an evolutionary dead end, at least IMO.
09:35	drewr	Licenser_: I've had gem break plenty of things
09:35	defn	cemerick: id be happy with one or two sticks.
09:36	defn	rubygems is just a big twig, too, after all...
09:36	Licenser_	drewr: sure it can happen but lein /mvn /whatever is doing it. Is just broken in that area
09:36	Chousuke	sattvik: I don't think that'll be a problem. After all, Java is fairly successful
09:36	Chousuke	sattvik: Java's dependency handling situation is no better, fundamentally, than Clojure's :P
09:37	Licenser_	I did not even know that java has a dependency handling ...
09:37	seths	cemerick: Ivy only offering dependency management is not valuable enough? Confused.
09:37	cemerick	Licenser_: it does -- maven. Seriously, it's the accepted standard.
09:38	Licenser_	cemerick: java is an accepted standard it stull sucks in my eyes :P
09:38	defn	leiningen with the ability to search and retrieve meta info on libraries, install versions from the command line, provide executables
09:38	Licenser_	at this note my spelling is a accepted standard and definetlyt sucks
09:38	cemerick	seths: No, it's not. How about handling deployment? Multiple build profiles? Massive plugin ecosystem?
09:39	defn	and a uniform easy-to-understand way of using libraries you download in your clojure code out of the box
09:39	cemerick	defn: You're quite honestly talking about maven, as it sits today.
09:39	seths	I was hoping to avoid unraveling this into a build tool discussion
09:39	Licenser_	All I say is, in the long or midrun, to be successful clojure needs something good to handle it's own libraries
09:39	Chousuke	defn: I still think all of that can be built on top of maven :P
09:39	sattvik	Chousuke: I agree. But Java tends to live outside the ecosystem set up by Linux distributions and the like. With the Jigsaw project stuff, I hope that the situation will get much better and we can take the dependency management aspects out of build tools. Or at least, simplify the situation.
09:39	defn	oh -- well like i said, i dont know anything about maven, cemerick & Chousuke -- that's really what I'm looking for TBH
09:39	seths	if no one hates the idea of discussing an official "clojure sdk" download with a bin/clj [bat/sh] I will post something to the dev list
09:39	cemerick	seths: I'm not sure how to avoid it. a la carte "systems" are painful, I don't want to deal with them anymore.
09:40	seths	cemerick: I wish we could all go bak to using GNU Make
09:40	cemerick	oh, fer sure! :-P
09:40	defn	i am often upset that i need to open a .jar and find out how to use the library in my code -- i wish there was some way to make them more uniform. it'd be nice if other people's releases of a jar to clojars were kept in the same folder instead of being strewn about
09:40	Chousuke	psh, shell scripts!
09:40	seths	or even "imake", an abstraction over makefiles
09:41	cemerick	seths: oh, you were being serious...
09:41	seths	cemerick: yes, I am a GNU Make fanboy. served me well on a multi-platform C++ project years ago
09:41	Chousuke	defn: I think that might just be lein silliness. Maven really does put the things it downloads just where you tell it to put them. that can be a private repository or a global one.
09:42	sattvik	The thing I like about lein is that it has the potential to define a simple interface, the 'project.clj' file. You could then write different back-ends to handle the dependency management.
09:42	cemerick	seths: yeah, not sure that's an endorsement. :-)
09:42	seths	,#($%)
09:42	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: $ in this context
09:42	cemerick	sattvik: you're looking for polyglot maven. Regardless, don't confuse syntax and such with the platform underneath.
09:42	defn	Chousuke: Hmm, maybe we're talking about different things?
09:42	seths	er
09:42	seths	,#(&%)
09:42	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: & in this context
09:42	Chousuke	defn: I'm not sure. maybe :P
09:42	seths	sigh
09:42	seths	,#(%&)
09:42	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval__7906$fn__7908 sandbox$eval__7906$fn__7908@15e8c9d>
09:42	Licenser_	Chousuke: the problem wiuht ein here is it puts the stuff it downloads in ~/.m2 and <project>/lib
09:43	defn	Chousuke: I don't like downloading enlive [enlive "1.0"] (in my project.clj), and then finding out when i get to my repl that it's net.cgrand.enlive-html
09:43	Chousuke	Licenser_: why it puts things under /lib I don't understand :/
09:43	defn	as a newb that was an "ugh" moment for me
09:43	Chousuke	defn: maybe there could be a "lein describe" command
09:43	defn	that'd be nice
09:43	Licenser_	Chousuke: even worst it does not delete old stuff
09:44	mattrepl	the local repo, ~/.m2, is useful for using custom builds of project dependencies
09:44	cemerick	defn: clojars is certainly not the tidiest maven repo, for sure.
09:44	Licenser_	if you update a lib and don't delete the old one by hand it seems to randomly decide which one to use
09:44	Chousuke	Licenser_: that's my primary complaint about it.
09:44	Chousuke	Licenser_: but I suppose it wouldn't be impossible to write a mvn cutleaves plugin
09:44	defn	yeah it's a big annoying cemerick -- like 10 versions of compojure up there, all in different directories, you need to do different things to use them in your project, etc.
09:45	Licenser_	I don't mean to say how it is bad how it is, or that we need to reinvent the wheen just that there is a lot of room for improvement and a good depmanagement/build platform is incredible important
09:46	cemerick	defn: See, if compojure had a regular maven pom, it would have specific and canonical coordinates, as well as a definition of where to deploy it when cgrand did a build. Just sayin.
09:46	Chousuke	Another thing maven has done wrong IMO is that it defaults to downloading things from the internet.
09:46	defn	On that note it's worth mentioning again that lein is really good for how young the project is.
09:46	defn	cemerick: interesting. i like that.
09:47	cemerick	defn: this is my point. All this stuff is built already.
09:47	defn	I've heard people in here from a couple different linux distro communities asking how to build a clojure package without using the internet
09:47	cemerick	welcome them to the 21st century.
09:47	stacktracer	is there a way to say "(if x x :default)" that doesn't require repeating x?
09:47	Chousuke	(or x :def)
09:47	defn	cemerick: heh i think it is the result of build guidelines they are following -- i tend to agree with you
09:48	stacktracer	Chousuke: wow, that seems obvious now that you've said it
09:48	stacktracer	thanks
09:48	cemerick	defn: otherwise, maven has an offline build mode (-o)
09:49	defn	so what is polyglot maven, how does that remove the "suck" from maven? I've heard so many snarls about maven over the last 8 months...
09:50	Chousuke	defn: it's really just for the xml-allergic
09:50	Chousuke	defn: allows you to write the pom files in any language.
09:50	defn	i don't like XML -- noisy lisp etc. etc.
09:50	defn	Chousuke: ah
09:51	defn	does everyone need to install some thingamajig to use that functionality?
09:51	Chousuke	well, the polyglot plugin, probably :P
09:51	defn	so removing a pain point, but adding another layer of complexity
09:52	Chousuke	but you probably can do it by writing your pom in clojure and automatically translating it to XML
09:52	cemerick	defn: try to not base your tool choices on heresay. Otherwise, you'd be avoiding the LISP relics.
09:53	Chousuke	I think XML is an okay format for transporting pom files but it's not a good format for editing them ;/
09:53	defn	cemerick: you seem to get the impression that I'm not willing to use maven. Everything you've said makes a lot of sense to me, and if the XML crud is removed I think it'd be great.
09:53	defn	I was just echoing a sentiment I've heard many times lately
09:53	defn	for sake of argument
09:53	Chousuke	XML is disparaged more than it deserves sometimes
09:54	defn	I don't have any problem with key/value pairs, but after you've seen how easy it is do build a similar datastructure with a syntax that makes it easier to edit, it does seem a bit archaic and weird
09:54	cemerick	defn: Sure. I'd only say, care about what really matters. What really matters with build tools is ecosystem/community and capability. Stuff like XML vs. sexprs is not a valid discriminator given the relative importance of other factors.
09:55	defn	cemerick: well said
09:55	Chousuke	its value is mostly in the vast number of tools surrounding it though. parsers, automatic syntactic and semantic validators based on schemas, XML transformers etc.
09:57	defn	Chousuke: I think the hardest thing here is trying to find a balance between people new to clojure, and people who want to really push the envelope
10:01	defn	not even to push the envelope... This is going to come off as incredibly subjective and perhaps a bit naive, but, I just feel like there are a lot of opportunities for a new language to define their own culture
10:01	defn	s/their/its
10:02	alexyk	I launch 8 agents on an 8-CPU box and give them chunks of a database to process. Each will hold a vector of results. How do I do a barrier sync to get all chunks when ready and concat them?
10:03	sattvik	In my opinion, I think what is most helpful for people new to Clojure is to be able to install Clojure the same way they do other software. For Linux users, this means using apt-get, emerge, or whatever their distro uses. For Windows users, it means having an installer that will install a JRE, the Clojure JARs, and a link on the desktop to the REPL.
10:03	cemerick	defn: given that clojure is at its roots a hosted language, it only makes sense to use the orthogonal tools provided by the given host or prevalent in the community. I presume ClojureCLR will use NAnt or whatever the build tool of choice is in .NET-land.
10:04	mattrepl	alexyk: await? http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/await
10:04	defn	cemerick: Is Maven a JVM build tool or a Java one?
10:05	alexyk	mattrepl: thx!
10:05	cemerick	defn: decidedly the former.
10:05	defn	Does jruby use ant?
10:05	alexyk	defn: there'sa polyglot maven now too
10:05	alexyk	http://polyglot.sonatype.org/
10:05	alexyk	has a clojure logo in it
10:05	headius	jruby uses ant, but partly through rake+ant integration
10:06	headius	hopefully eventually entirely through rake
10:06	cemerick	defn: I've no idea what they use. But then, they have an existing community they want to be compatible with.
10:06	defn	see that seems like something we want headius, i dont know the answer...
10:07	seths	ok, message was posted to the dev list. Hope to provoke some useful discussion.
10:08	headius	I think our next step is to do maven integration as well, but I'm partial to just using ant and structuring my projects the way I want to
10:11	sattvik	headius: That's the thing. Doubtless, Maven is a powerful tool; but it's very complex. I prefer to keep things simple and transparent, and Ant provides that for me.
10:12	headius	in an effort to help java folks adopt jruby, we're integrating all that crap...but I haven't swallowed the maven pill yet
10:12	headius	maybe a jruby-based maven tooling would change my mind
10:12	headius	the rake+ant stuff is really nice
10:13	cemerick	Funny enough, I had my own irrational maven hatred until last fall, ~ 14 months into using clojure.
10:13	cemerick	That, as a way of saying, maven is a generalized build solution, not a Java-specific tool.
10:14	defn	headius: that sounds like the ideal solution to me just because it lets you "ease" into ant, but it's still ant.
10:15	headius	defn: we also do two-way integration, which I don't think any other ant wrappers do
10:15	defn	This discussion started on "new users". I think if new users have no prior knowledge of java they should still be able to pick things up and have some idea of what's going on
10:15	headius	so you can call both ways
10:16	defn	headius: cool
10:16	defn	headius: did you know a lot of java prior to picking up clojure?
10:16	headius	heh
10:16	chouser	headius: have you ever heard of ruby?
10:17	chouser	;-)
10:17	headius	I don't really use clojure, I'm just a spy from ruby-land
10:17	headius	and yes, I've done a bit of java
10:17	headius	I'm one of those rare polyglots that doesn't think java's all that bad
10:17	defn	headius: I remember your from #ruby-lang sometime back -- c nutter?
10:17	headius	defn: yup
10:17	defn	ah, good to see you again :)
10:18	sattvik	cemerick: The #1 problem is that it's a build tool that takes a lot of custom development to integrate it into a larger building ecosystem. Maven has been a big problem with integrating more Java packages into Gentoo. It's too difficult to get Maven's dependency management to cooperate with Gentoo's. It's probably possible to create the appropriate plugin or something like that, but it's not a project anyone has taken up.
10:18	defn	headius: are you sympathetic to the "use maven, but give people an easy way to do maven without doing maven"?
10:19	headius	yes
10:19	cemerick	sattvik: Apologies ahead of time, but everything has trouble cooperating with Gentoo!
10:19	headius	I think the danger is in straying too far from maven proper, like buildr seems to do
10:19	headius	you don't want to reimplement all of maven in another tool...it would be better to just wrap it with a better exterior
10:19	defn	headius has rvm caused any spike in the number of people using jruby, or has it been growing consistently regardless?
10:20	headius	like git wrappers do for git
10:20	headius	defn: hard to tell
10:20	headius	jruby can be fetched from lots of locations
10:20	defn	headius: ive been using jruby all the time. i dont see why id use ruby proper at this point...
10:21	cemerick	cemerick: More seriously, gentoo is such an edge case in so many ways. If jvm stuff can be made to work there, then so can clojure, but until that's the case, us changing any kind of approach to accommodate gentoo seems to me like a spectacular distraction.
10:22	defn	after i saw your performance graphs practically a year or maybe two years ago now, i was fairly skeptical, but it's just ruby -- and it's fast. i really love it. :)
10:22	Licenser_	jruby runs on more platforms
10:22	defn	cemerick: yeah i tend to agree. RHEL, Ubuntu -- those take precedent over gentoo IMO.
10:22	Licenser_	getting ruby run on sparc solaris is a seriouse PITA
10:23	rsynnott	cemerick: what, the JVM doesn't work on gentoo?
10:23	headius	jruby's arguably the best windows ruby right now also
10:23	cemerick	rsynnott: No idea.
10:23	headius	and we get the weirdest bugs
10:23	cemerick	From what I hear, a lot of stuff doesn't work on gentoo. shrug
10:23	headius	I thought nothing would top the EBCDIC bugs until OpenVMS bugs started to show up
10:23	rsynnott	oh, it's just a build system impedence mismatch
10:23	defn	by a long shot headius. i had to slap something together on windows the other day and I use jruby. it's the default in netbeans now isn't it?
10:23	headius	defn: I think it always was
10:24	defn	ah, either way, very cool :)
10:24	sattvik	cemerick: Well, I am biased, but I'd argue that's FUD. And Gentoo isn't the only the system to use source-based packages. There is BSD's ports and Macports. Java works just fine on Gentoo, and I have clojure/clojure-contrib ebuilds that work just fine, too.
10:24	cemerick	defn: Windows, OS X, Ubuntu, RHEL are the key targets. Beyond that, one has to assume people know what they're doing, and are happy to fix stuff that goes awry.
10:24	underdev	rsynnott: i'm fond of this one lisp dialect on that runs on the jvm
10:25	rsynnott	sattvik: however, not all things on MacOS are expected to be built using ports
10:25	SynrG	headius: hi
10:25	headius	yo
10:25	SynrG	headius: speaking of OpenVMS bugs :)
10:25	rsynnott	sattvik: is the problem just that gentoo's build system doesn't get on with maven?
10:25	SynrG	Ben Armstrong, OpenVMS bug submitter
10:25	cemerick	sattvik: Fair enough. Of course, macports is a horrible, miserable thing to work with. Regardless, if we have a solution that addresses the four platforms I just mentioned, but gentoo ends up being out in the cold, I can't say I'd care much. Sorry again. :-\|
10:26	SynrG	headius: incidentally, clojure runs on VMS too :)
10:26	headius	SynrG: hah, hello there :)
10:26	rsynnott	(it was a java thingy)
10:26	headius	yes, I'd assume clojure runs on openvms too
10:27	SynrG	haven't done anything with it yet, tho. and jruby ... well, that's going to be a big project for us to make everything work. i'm just hoping Uso Thierry can do things with it before I have to dirty my hands with it
10:28	headius	if I had a way to help, you know I would :) some bugs are out of my reach
10:28	SynrG	sure. well, with Uso interested, at least we're no longer alone like we were with the MRI port
10:29	headius	I think the bugs you filed were largely in the lower-level process stuff we do, which I don't think any other JVM langs have attempted
10:29	headius	it's fun and exciting to implement libc-like process control on top of java.lang.Process...no really
10:29	SynrG	i have since then learned a thing or two about the controls for filename handling
10:29	SynrG	in a different context, umm ...
10:30	headius	I never knew vms, so everything in that bug was totally baffling to me
10:30	headius	I think enebo understood some of it
10:30	sattvik	rsynnott: The problem is that Gentoo and Maven is that they both do dependency management. If you're just installing binary jars, it doesn't really matter what Maven does since you don't really need it to install programs that are built with Maven. However, since Gentoo compiles all programs, it needs to use Maven to compile. Unfortunately, Maven doesn't know about all of the jars already installed on the system and tries to download t
10:30	Licenser_	to distract you people: http://82.210.31.97:8080/index
10:30	rsynnott	sattvik: but a gentoo user could happily just install clojure outside the gentoo package management system, no?
10:31	SynrG	headius: ah, solr!
10:31	SynrG	lucene, to be more precise
10:31	rsynnott	this sounds more like a problem for the gentoo people to fix than a reason not to use maven
10:31	SynrG	it was misfiring on filenames with no extension
10:31	cemerick	rsynnott: Indeed.
10:31	SynrG	"filename" would end up as "filename."
10:32	chouser	actually, that's a problem for every runtime-specific dep manager (gems, cpan, etc.) on every distro (redhat, debian, gentoo)
10:32	chouser	afaik, each combination is "solved" slightly differently, to slightly different values of "solved"
10:32	Mec	what is wrong with (reduce #(assoc %1 (inc (get %1 %2))) {} coll) that im getting NullPointerException?
10:33	headius	SynrG: ahh interesting
10:33	SynrG	headius: anyway, your appearance here mentioning OpenVMS reminds me to revisit the bugs to see if any of what i learned with lucene can be applied to those bugs
10:33	sattvik	rsynnott: Yes, as with any distro, a user can do whatever they want independent of the build system. However, it'd be ideal if it could be integrated into the system.
10:33	headius	SynrG: yes, it would be nice to get those resolved at some point :)
10:33	headius	it was definitely path-parsing in at least one of the bugs
10:33	SynrG	yup
10:33	headius	the other was the use of sh to run subcommands I think
10:34	SynrG	mhm
10:34	rsynnott	sattvik: but that would be an issue important largely to people who use gentoo (which is not many), and so something that the gentoo people should sort out rather than expecting third parties to accomodate something with minimal market share
10:34	Mec	nvm there was a lot wrong with that, time for bed methinks
10:34	SynrG	headius: hmm, and i have clojure to cross-check these things with. surely there are equivalent constructs?
10:34	sattvik	chouser: Exactly, there are Gentoo wrappers for dealing with CPAN, CTAN, and Ruby, at least. Maven hasn't been tackled yet.
10:35	headius	http://jira.codehaus.org/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&jqlQuery=project+%3D+JRUBY+AND+%28summary+%7E+openvms+OR+description+%7E+openvms+OR+comment+%7E+openvms%29
10:35	headius	looks like there was at least one other person who filed openvms-related bugs
10:35	SynrG	headius: speaking of jruby, you wouldn't happen to know why jline sometimes cocks up and starts dropping characters. this seems to affect both clojure and jirb on debian sid.
10:36	headius	I do not...somehow I became an admin on jline though, so it's probably my fault in some way
10:36	sattvik	rsynnott: Perhaps, but so long as I have a voice, I'll try to push for solutions that are easy to integrate into source-based distros.
10:37	SynrG	headius: my reproducible test case: start clojure repl. up-arrow a couple of times. left-arrow once. then a bunch of up/down/up-arrows until the lines start to get corrupted
10:37	SynrG	same with jruby only it took a bit longer to eventually drop characters
10:38	headius	I think you or someone else brought this up and it seemed to only be a problem in xterm or rxvt
10:39	headius	I was able to reproduce it using OS X xterm, but not Terminal
10:39	headius	some terminal emulation oddity wrt jline
10:44	djpowell	With maven, if I want to do something like run a java command-line to generate a file that is required by the build, how would I go about doing it?
10:44	SynrG	headius: aha. yeah, i was beginning to investigate this, but so far had only tried: gnome-terminal, lxterminal, xterm
10:44	djpowell	I get the feeling that it is more than one line of code?
10:44	SynrG	headius: my next test was going to be in console
10:45	defn	,(type {:x 1})
10:45	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
10:47	SynrG	headius: nope. screws up in console too (TERM=linux)
10:48	headius	djpowell: it's probably eight lines of XML, knowing maven
10:48	defn	are big arraymaps coerced into hashmaps?
10:48	defn	persistentarraymaps vs persistenthashmaps
10:49	headius	gotta run, bbl
10:50	Licenser_	hmm now to join a list?
10:50	defn	cons, concat?
10:50	Raynes	I think you want concat.
10:50	Licenser_	I mean like ["a" "b" "c"] -> "a,b,c"
10:51	Raynes	Or flatten.
10:51	sattvik	Licenser_: interpose?
10:51	defn	clojure.contrib.seq-utils
10:51	defn	/flatten
10:51	Raynes	,(apply str (interpose "," ["a", "b", "c"]))
10:51	clojurebot	"a,b,c"
10:52	Raynes	,(clojure.contrib.seq-utils/flatten ["a" "b" "c"])
10:52	clojurebot	("a" "b" "c")
10:52	Raynes	Doesn't do what he wants here.
10:52	Raynes	:(
10:52	Raynes	I mean, it wouldn't anyway without interposing ",", but still.
10:52	Licenser_	I like the interpose thing
10:56	Raynes	Licenser_: By the way, good morning (depending on what time it is wherever you live. ;))
10:56	defn	,(let [[x y z] ["a" "b" "c"]] (str-join "," [x y z]))
10:56	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: str-join in this context
10:56	alexyk	how do you update a global (def a 1) from within a defn?
10:56	Licenser_	afternoon :(
10:56	Licenser_	:)
10:56	defn	,(use 'clojure.contrib.str-utils)
10:56	clojurebot	nil
10:56	defn	,(let [[x y z] ["a" "b" "c"]] (str-join "," [x y z]))
10:56	clojurebot	"a,b,c"
10:56	Chousuke	alexyk: you should not
10:56	Chousuke	alexyk: but alter-var-root
10:57	alexyk	Chousuke: ok
10:57	alexyk	but I won't :)
10:57	Chousuke	unless you mean dynamic rebinding, which is sometimes useful
10:57	Chousuke	using the binding macro
10:58	alexyk	I just want to declare some (def agents []) on top, and do actual (<reassign> agents <actual creation>) in a defn
10:58	alexyk	so I have agents in the repl for inspection
10:58	Chousuke	alexyk: that might be an okay use for alter-var-root
10:58	alexyk	Chousuke: I'm relieved :)
10:59	Chousuke	alexyk: just make sure not to make it a habit. :P
10:59	alexyk	I'll try :)
11:00	Chousuke	another way to do it might be to write a function that returns a vector of agents and then just do (def agents ...) though.
11:08	gko	Hello
11:10	lpetit	chouser: the community is wanting (also has not yet understood it's what it wants) your lightweight graphical REPL (with auto-indentation, bracket matching, and code completion, of course :-) ) to be delivered as an alternative to the current clojure.main & clojure.contrib.repl_ln textual REPLS !
11:12	Licenser_	lpetit: tgat wouold be cool
11:13	gko	How do you define functions that calls each other? I have this exception: "Unable to resolve symbol: decode-grouped-values in this context" because some function is calling decode-grouped-values, which itself calls this function...
11:14	lpetit	Licenser_: yes, because the other great current approach for noobs is : everything packaged in a zip, but those zips would be no less than a hundred megabytes, and that could stop noobs too :-)
11:14	Chousuke	gko: declare it first
11:14	Chousuke	just (declare foo)
11:14	conradbarski	...
11:15	gko	Chousuke: OK
11:16	conradbarski	Hi- Anyone know a paredit trick for changing bracket types in a complex expression? i.e. to change "(((2 2) (1 1)) 3)" to "([(2 2) (1 1)] 3)" or similar changes...
11:16	gko	Chousuke: thanks!
11:17	fogus	lpetit: Have you seen the Beanshell graphical REPL? It's quite nice (caveat... I've only played with it briefly). I would love to see something like that for Clojure
11:17	lpetit	No, haven't seen it
11:18	lpetit	fogus: quick link ?
11:18	lpetit	~google Beanshell graphical REPL
11:18	lpetit	~search Beanshell graphical REPL
11:18	hiredman	oh
11:18	hiredman	I need to auth clojurebot
11:19	hiredman	~google Beanshell graphical REPL
11:19	hiredman	~google Beanshell graphical REPL
11:20	clojurebot	First, out of 248 results is:
11:20	clojurebot	A Taste of 2.8: The Interactive Interpreter (REPL) \| The Scala ...
11:20	clojurebot	http://www.scala-lang.org/node/2097
11:22	_invis	Guys plz tell me how to set emacs working directory
11:23	lpetit	~google Beanshell scripting environment
11:23	clojurebot	First, out of 4110 results is:
11:23	clojurebot	BshServlet and Servlet Mode Scripting
11:23	clojurebot	http://www.beanshell.org/manual/servletmode.html
11:23	lpetit	arg
11:23	cemerick	mmm, I'm going to make this clojure+maven post into a screencast.
11:23	_invis	thanks
11:23	fogus	lpetit: http://www.beanshell.org/manual/desktop.html
11:24	lpetit	fogus: thx
11:25	fogus	lpetit: np. So you're going to write something like this for Clojure right? ;-)
11:25	lpetit	fogus: grmlml
11:25	lpetit	fogus: yes, after having finished ccw :-p
11:26	fogus	lpetit: So you're saying there's a chance? :p
11:26	lpetit	fogus: If, like cats, I have several lifes :-)
11:27	lpetit	fogus: I guess I remember chouser talking about something like that, once
11:28	lpetit	fogus: something using minimal dependencies but what the plain JDK API provides (aka swing)
11:28	fogus	Chouser's REPL-thingy could probably serve as the basis of a Beanshell-type environement
11:28	fogus	Right. Nothing external.
11:28	lpetit	fogus: so that a handful of clj files suffice to have something good enough for testing the language/working on small projects
11:30	fogus	My thoughts exactly. A no-thought way for new-comers to play with Clojure out of the box, but that is more than just the raw REPL.
11:31	zaphar_ps	any moderators for the clojure mailing list on here right now?
11:31	fogus	Ohhh, that happens to work one all OSes. But not an IDE
11:33	_invis	Guys plz tell me how to set emacs working directory
11:33	noidi	_invis, M-x cd
11:33	_invis	omg
11:33	noidi	but in emacs the working directory is per-buffer
11:33	_invis	thanks
11:34	noidi	and the default in each buffer is the directory of the file that you've opened in that buffer
11:34	_invis	ok
11:34	Raynes	Your working directory will be the directory of the file you're currently working on, afaik.
11:34	noidi	yes, unless changed with M-x cd
11:35	noidi	usually when I have to do something with a specific working directory, I just visit the directory in a new buffer with C-x C-f and then do the thing with the buffer active
11:45	arohner	what's the difference between (foo bar) and (#'foo bar)?
11:45	arohner	I'm trying to write a macro, and I think I need the first, but I'm getting the second
11:46	arohner	oh, that's a var...
11:48	Licenser_	okay anyone interested in trying to break a sandbox?
11:48	zmila	lpetit and fogus - this shell seems to be very similar to newLisp's GUI
11:49	lpetit	zmila, fogus: if only eclipse was not based on swt . Or if only the JVM shipped with both swt and swing :-)
11:51	fogus	Sounds like a JSR is in order... then we just wait a decade or so.
11:52	joshua-choi	If I have (defn f [s] (when (seq s) (lazy-seq (cons (inc (first s)) (f (nnext s)))))), does f hold onto s's head while computing?
11:53	joshua-choi	Do I need to surround (f (nnext s)) with a lazy-seq form too?
11:53	Raynes	Licenser_: Can we add lein-swank as a dev-dependency?
11:53	Licenser_	Raynes: of cause
11:53	hiredman	clojurebot -> hornetq -> openvpn to laptop -> growl notifications of irc
11:53	hiredman	ready for the enterprise
11:54	chouser	heh
11:54	Raynes	Licenser_: Thank you.
11:54	lpetit	chouser: heh
11:54	Licenser_	ah nothing to thank me
11:54	Licenser_	:)
11:55	_invis	Is anyone here know why I cant slime-connect to Labrepl ??
11:55	_invis	Have this message: open-network-stream: make client process failed: connection refused, :name, SLIME Lisp, :buffer, nil, :host, 127.0.0.1, :service, 4005
11:56	lpetit	joshua-choi: I guess your code should look like (defn f [s] (when-let [s (seq s)] .... ) , but this does not answer your question :-)
11:57	lpetit	,(doc nnext)
11:57	clojurebot	"([x]); Same as (next (next x))"
11:57	lpetit	joshua-choi: I'm pretty sure your code doesn't hold onto s head
11:58	Licenser_	so people who are named lloyd are actually (loyd (loyd))?
11:58	lpetit	Licenser_: yes, they were created with the Y operator :-p
11:58	Licenser_	:D
11:59	somnium	so that's what the Y is for...
12:01	joshua-choi	lpetit: Hopefully. But how can that be? s is referred to inside the lazy-seq code...When (f (nnext s)) is called, s is still in the lexical scope.
12:07	lpetit	joshua-choi: so you created a Seq instance with an object for first ready to be computed (holding a ref to s), and an object with code for computing the next seq, also holding s. You call next/rest on the seq, and you create the next Seq instance, which will hold the (nnext s) head
12:09	lpetit	joshua-choi: make the cal to (lazy-seq) be the first form of your method body, too
12:10	Licenser_	hey defn the way to fix the 'nothing found' problem is rather simple, if the sandbox test returns an empty list just show the other list ;)
12:10	lpetit	joshua-choi: (defn f [s] (lazy-seq (when-let [s (seq s)] ...
12:10	joshua-choi	Ah, right...the lazy-seq form returns immediately. But s is still in lazy-seq.
12:10	joshua-choi	Would it be better if I (let [first-thing (first s), remainder (nnext-s)] (lazy-seq (cons (inc first-thing) (f remainder))))?
12:12	lpetit	joshua-choi: not needed, take a look at "take" implementation:
12:12	lpetit	~source take
12:12	Licenser_	woooh why is clojurebot pink?
12:20	SynrG	Licenser_: notice
12:20	Licenser_	SynrG: what should I notice?
12:20	Licenser_	ahhh sneaky pink people around!
12:20	SynrG	/notice #clojure feeling in the pink
12:21	joshua-choi	I get it now, I think. When the lazy seq evaluates itself later, whenever it's needed, it evaluates (f (nnext s)), creating another lazy sequence, but the head of s is free to drop off, since (f s) has already been called a while back.
12:25	lpetit	yes
12:26	SynrG	hmm. a debian colleague just indicated she has uploaded a cute game written in haskell for debian: http://raincat.bysusanlin.com/
12:26	SynrG	clojure needs something like this :)
12:28	somnium	wow, it looks like a Miyazaki Haiyou short film
12:29	somnium	/s/Haiyou/Hayao
12:30	SynrG	next she's packaging something by the same authors, this time in "Stackless Python using SFML" (huh?) ... anyway: http://hobocat.bysusanlin.com/
12:30	SynrG	somnium: ya :)
12:31	SynrG	somnium: my little girls, ages 8 and 12, really love raincat. though i don't think i could effectively use that as a hook for learning haskell :)
12:31	Licenser_	but we have clicki! :P
12:31	somnium	SynrG: I can see how that would be challenging :)
12:33	somnium	that reminds me of a yegge blogpost comparing Scheme, ELisp, and CL. Scheme was a sports car with no radio or AC, ELisp was a Subaru compact, and CL was Howl's Magic Castle.
12:33	Chousuke	SynrG: if they manage to learn haskell, they should have little trouble in maths class ;P
12:33	SynrG	hehe
12:33	somnium	which raises the question, what vehicle is Clojure?
12:33	SynrG	Licenser_: clicki? whazzat?
12:34	dpritchett	Could someone help me udnerstand why (macroexpand-1 (->> 5 (- 3))) returns "-2" rather than "(- 5 3)"?
12:34	Licenser_	SynrG: my newest crazy inventiojn of cause!
12:34	zaphar_ps	somnium: the minivan
12:34	zaphar_ps	it gets stuff done
12:34	SynrG	somnium: how's moving castle, oo. nice :)
12:34	dpritchett	... this is in re: fogus's blog from yesterday
12:34	zaphar_ps	and takes you places
12:34	Licenser_	A real wiki program (as it nearly entirely editable on the web)
12:34	SynrG	howl's
12:34	Chousuke	dpritchett: you're not quoting the expression
12:34	SynrG	clever. but cute?
12:34	Chousuke	dpritchett: you're passing 2 to macroexpand
12:35	Chousuke	dpritchett: and it returns the macroexpansion of 2, which is 2
12:35	Licenser_	SynrG: you can make it cute ;)
12:35	Chousuke	only, with minuses
12:35	dpritchett	Chousuke: indeed, thanks! I have read a few chapters/posts on Clojure macros but I haven't actually used enough to remember the proper syntax. Thank you!
12:35	SynrG	:)
12:35	Licenser_	just toss in a few cat pictures here and there :P
12:35	SynrG	hehe
12:36	Chousuke	dpritchett: it's not really a syntax thing. macroexpand just expects clojure code as an argument, and you were passing just a number :)
12:36	Licenser_	SynrG: make it cute :P - since you can edit about everything it i - http://82.210.31.97:8080/index
12:36	dpritchett	Just out of curiosity is there ever a case where someone would want to automate the use of macroexpand to compose larger functions and not quote out the argument? Would it be possible for the macroexpand macro to autoquote in case of noobs forgetting?
12:37	Chousuke	dpritchett: well, macroexpand shouldn't really be a macro because then it would have to expand itself with itself...
12:37	SynrG	Licenser_: a) no artistic talent here :p b) still can't see my little girls giving it rave reviews, even with cute cats
12:38	Chousuke	dpritchett: better just get used to the fact that you can pass code to functions. it's neat when you really finally get it.
12:38	dpritchett	Good point Chousuke, I don't know why I thought macroexpand was itself a macro.
12:38	Licenser_	Meh why not? They can edit the cute cats in clojure! Making more cute and cuter cute cats!
12:39	SynrG	<insert joke about cute cats and tail recursion here>
12:39	Chousuke	dpritchett: though in clojure the macroexpand function could be made a macro because it doesn't actually do the macro expansion for the compiler (there is a java method for that)... but that might someday change :)
12:39	Licenser_	I mean with 8 they are in the right age to learn something fundametnal like clojure!
12:39	chouser	can't run raincat -- maybe it's 32bit-only?
12:39	SynrG	humm ... debian now has packages for 32 and 64-bit ...
12:39	Licenser_	SynrG: we don't have automatic tail recursion :)
13:27	_invis	Guys I need a correct calculus with PI, but dont know how :(
13:27	_invis	,(* 180.0M 3.7)
13:27	clojurebot	666.0
13:27	_invis	,(+ 180.0M 1)
13:27	clojurebot	181.0M
13:28	chouser	,Math/PI
13:28	clojurebot	3.141592653589793
13:28	_invis	i know
13:28	_invis	but it will not be BigDecimal
13:28	_invis	,(* 5 Math/PI)
13:28	clojurebot	15.707963267948966
13:29	_invis	,(* 5.0M Math/PI)
13:29	clojurebot	15.707963267948966
13:29	_invis	so how I can take correct calculus ?
13:30	chouser	It sounds like you're asking for infinite precision.
13:30	_invis	,(* 5.5M Math/PI)
13:30	clojurebot	17.27875959474386
13:30	_invis	,(* 5.5 Math/PI)
13:30	clojurebot	17.27875959474386
13:30	_invis	the same result
13:31	_invis	not infinite, but more correct
13:31	chouser	how much more correct?
13:31	_invis	look
13:31	chouser	http://blog.objectmentor.com/articles/2009/08/05/generating-pi-in-clojure
13:31	defn	use one of the algorithms to approximate it
13:31	_invis	,(* 5.5622322313254324131542313M 180)
13:31	clojurebot	1001.2018016385778343677616340M
13:32	_invis	,(Math/PI)
13:32	clojurebot	3.141592653589793
13:32	_invis	,(* 5.5M 3.141592653589793M)
13:32	clojurebot	17.2787595947438615M
13:32	_invis	,(* 5.5M Math/PI)
13:32	clojurebot	17.27875959474386
13:33	_invis	I want first
13:33	chouser	so you want more digits of pi than is shipped with Java or Clojure.
13:34	_invis	why
13:34	chouser	I gave you a link above to code that generates pi to arbitrary precisions
13:34	_invis	same digits in the last 2 examples
13:34	chouser	why do you want more? I have no ida.
13:34	_invis	I think your link will help me
13:34	_invis	*hope
13:35	_invis	afk
13:42	Chousuke	_invis: you can't do correct calculus with doubles because it simply doesn't have the needed precision. You need BigDecimal
13:43	Chousuke	_invis: and multiplying a bigdecimal with a double produces a double because it can't be guaranteed that there is no loss of precision, so the answer is given in a form that doesn't pretend to be accurate.
14:19	ag90	Question about apply. Can it be used on static functions from Java stdlib? I'm trying to do (apply BorderFactory/createTitledBorder (list of arguments)) but it complains about not being able to find "static field: createTitledBorder in class javax.swing.BorderFactory". Any way around this?
14:20	chouser	apply only works directly on clojure functions, but there are a couple ways to get what you want.
14:21	chouser	One is to do something like (apply #(BorderFactory/createTitledBorder %1 %2 %3) mylist)
14:21	ag90	Yeah I considered that but the number of arguments is not known.
14:21	chouser	...where you must supply exactly the number of %'s as the size of mylist.
14:21	chouser	ok
14:22	chouser	in that case you have to use reflection
14:22	ag90	Alright. Thanks.
14:23	chouser	something like (clojure.lang.Reflector/invokeStaticMethod BorderFactory "createTitledBorder" (to-array mylist))
14:23	ag90	Oh yeah that would do.
14:23	chouser	ag90: is createTitledBorder variadic itself?
14:24	ag90	createTitledBorder can take 0, 1, 2, 4, 5 and 6 arguments.
14:24	chouser	ok, what I pasted above should work.
14:24	ag90	No wait not 0.
14:24	ag90	Cool
14:24	ag90	Thanks
14:52	shales	What's the equivalent of a static main method in clojure?
14:54	vegai	shales: no such thing, is there?
14:54	Chousuke	you can write a static main method :P
14:54	vegai	really? Sick. :P
14:54	shales	I think I'm missing something
14:54	vegai	what?
14:54	clojurebot	what is wrong with you
14:55	vegai	clojurebot: heh. Touche.
14:55	Chousuke	using gen-class, you can generate a class from your namespace, and the namespace can have a function that corresponds to the main method
14:55	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
14:55	Chousuke	but if you don't use gen-class, then clojure has no such thing as a main method :)
14:55	Chousuke	things are simply evaluated in order
14:55	shales	I'm using leiningen to build a jar and it appears to be running the function call I have in a clj file when I run 'lein jar'
14:56	shales	I was using this function call as my "main" equivalent when I ran that script
14:56	Chousuke	that would happen, yes
14:56	shales	but I don't understand why it runs when I use lein jar
14:56	Chousuke	because the code is executed
14:56	Chousuke	the entire file. including the function call.
14:57	shales	ya, clearly, but why is executing it necessary to build a jar file?
14:57	Chousuke	it's necessary because to build a jar file you need to evaluate the code that makes up the jar file
14:58	chouser	(def foo 10) (defmacro bar [] `(list foo)) (defn bash [] (bar))
14:58	Chousuke	Clojure differs from Java and other statically compiled languages in that in java the compiler reads code, compiles it, generates bytecode, and there is a static entry point.
14:58	chouser	in order to compile bash, bar must be evaluated. In order to evaluate bar, the value of foo must be evaluated.
14:58	Chousuke	but clojure starts by reading one expression, compiling it, executing it, then reading the next expression, compiling it, and executing it...
14:59	shales	oh, I'd thought the jar would contain the clj source and that would be compiled when it was eventually run.
14:59	Chousuke	well, that could happen too
14:59	Chousuke	chances are you're telling lein to precompile things
15:02	shales	so is it a better to not precompile or to use gen-class with a static main method
15:02	shales	?
15:02	chouser	in general I'd recommend avoiding external side-effects in top-level code. Then you can do either.
15:03	technomancy	shales: it's best not to precompile unless you have a specific need that's forcing you to do it
15:03	technomancy	but making executable jars is a decent reason if you're distributing to end-users
15:04	slyphon	wow, this is bizarre, i'm getting a "wrong number of args passed to blah" exception, but i'm like, so not
15:05	slyphon	does having a {} as the last argument do something funky?
15:05	drewr	it counts as one, so no
15:05	shales	Ok, but it sound like even if I'm making a exectuable jar I should still use gen-class. I'll give that a shot.
15:05	kotarak	slyphon: paste the code?
15:05	slyphon	kotarak: one sec
15:07	slyphon	kotarak: https://gist.github.com/b2f6b5577b32099e1062
15:07	slyphon	i gotta run out for lunch
15:07	slyphon	bbiafm
15:07	slyphon	kotarak: it's on line 43
15:07	slyphon	i'm calling it like (canonicalize-params (Date.) "12345" {})
15:08	drewr	slyphon: is it possible the exception is referring to something else?
15:08	kotarak	most likely
15:23	slyphon	hrm
15:24	ynef	newbie question: this works: (filter #(zero? (rem 12 %)) (range 2 (inc (/ 12 2)))) but this does not: (defn divisors [n] (filter #(zero? (rem n %)) (range 2 (inc (/ n 2))))) and then calling (divisors 12)
15:24	slyphon	oh, ffs
15:24	ynef	why?
15:24	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
15:24	slyphon	kotarak: it's on line 56
15:25	slyphon	no, shit
15:25	kotarak	slyphon: the map!
15:25	chouser	ynef: both return (2 3 4 6) for me
15:25	kotarak	#(lsajdflkj %1 %2) wants two arguments
15:26	ynef	chouser: that's really interesting, since I get something different :-/
15:26	kotarak	slyphon: you have to use (fn [[a b]] (... a b))
15:26	slyphon	oh, shit, yeah
15:26	slyphon	kotarak: good catch
15:26	ynef	chouser: nevermind, it was a problem with my eclipse plugin not reloading since I did some changes
15:26	chouser	or maybe #(str-join "=" %)
15:27	chouser	ynef: np
15:27	ynef	thanks anyway, you helped me regain some sanity :-)
15:27	slyphon	chouser: oh, yeah, i'll try that
15:27	slyphon	chouser: yep, worked, thanks
15:27	slyphon	kotarak: thanks
15:28	kotarak	yw
15:30	Raynes	technomancy: "Q: What's the difference between Ant and Maven? A: The creator of Ant has apologized."
15:30	Raynes	Good show.
15:31	slyphon	HAH
15:37	Raynes	You know, Rich Hickey appreciation day is coming up soon.
15:38	Raynes	Oh shit. We missed it.
15:38	Raynes	It was the 20th.
15:38	Raynes	It's hilarious how you can forget a mock holiday you yourself created
15:40	shales	Question about work flow. I'm using emacs, swank and leiningen. I'm creating a little toy app that has a couple clojure libs and a main class. I can build a jar with lein and execute that fine. Now what is the best way to rerun and test things without building a jar?
15:41	shales	I haven't figured out how to run the main function using 'java -cp ... clojure.main'
15:42	kotarak	clojure.main -e "(main)"
15:46	shales	If the function is namespace is this the best way? clojure.main -e "(use 'bonjure.main) (-main)"
15:46	shales	is in a namespace
15:47	Raynes	clojure.main -e "(bonjure.main/-main)"
16:01	ynef	I get a "ClassCastException" -- is there any way of getting more details about an exception? like what caused it?
16:01	ynef	This is what gives me problems: (defn abundant [limit] (filter #(> (reduce (+ (divisors %))) %) (range 3 (inc limit))))
16:01	ynef	I thought that would be reasonable :-)
16:02	chouser	reduce wants a fn -- (+ ...) probably doesn't return a function
16:03	chouser	maybe (apply + (divisors %)) ?
16:04	chouser	instead of (reduce ...)
16:07	underdev	how do i check the version of clojure that's running in a repl. I'm trying to use labrepl within emacs, but i think i'm using my original 1.1.0 clojure
16:07	chouser	,(clojure-version)
16:07	clojurebot	"1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
16:07	chouser	^^^ that actually means something before the 1.1 release
16:07	underdev	nope, i'm good
16:08	underdev	thanks chouser
16:47	raek	how can I make sure a function is always runned in a transaction?
16:47	raek	simply suround its body in a dosync?
16:48	raek	I want to make sure that all the refs are read at the same time
16:49	raek	but these functions will be building blocks that other code will use inside transactions
16:49	marten	hmm, is it possible to catch the exception thrown when an assertion fails?
16:50	marten	(try (some-fn-with-assertion) (catch Exception _ "exception occurred")) doesn't seem to cut it
16:51	marten	, (try ((fn [] {:pre [false]} "fn returned")) (catch Exception e "exceptioned"))
16:51	clojurebot	marten: Pardon?
16:52	slyphon	clojurebot: who are you, richard nixon?
16:52	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
16:52	slyphon	well, i guess he told me
16:53	chouser	(doc io!)
16:53	clojurebot	"([& body]); If an io! block occurs in a transaction, throws an IllegalStateException, else runs body in an implicit do. If the first expression in body is a literal string, will use that as the exception message."
16:53	chouser	oh, that's backwards.
16:54	chouser	raek: yeah, use dosync. they nest fine.
17:01	shales	If I have two namespaces, A and B, where B has a (:use A), and I move function from A to B, how do I reload these namespaces in slime?
17:02	shales	I get "Name conflict" errors when I try to C-c C-k the clj file for namespace B.
17:02	shales	How do I get it to recognize the function was removed from A?
17:05	Drakeson	if I replace a .jar and re-evaluate the (ns ...) importing it, possibly with :reload-all, will the new .jar be used?
17:06	kotarak	Drakeson: no
17:06	Drakeson	thanks
17:06	kotarak	Drakeson: put the contents in a directory. files may change and the changes are picked up
17:07	Drakeson	put the ".class"es in a directory? e.g., jar xf foo.jar?
17:08	kotarak	Drakeson: the class files can be loaded only once, but clojure source files can change.
17:09	Drakeson	the thing I want to reload is unfortunately java. I guess I have to suck it up and restart the vm
17:09	marten	shales: try (remove-ns 'A)
17:09	marten	destroys the entire namespace though
17:09	kotarak	Drakeson: that the most straight-forward thing. You could fiddle with class loaders or use jrebel & friends.
17:09	kotarak	shales: ns-unmap
17:12	slyphon	hfm, you can't do (is (not (thrown? ))) ?
17:12	slyphon	(is (thrown? )) works
17:13	shales	marten: thanks, getting a different compiler error now but may not be related
17:14	shales	kotarak: that's for individual symbols only? does remove-ns essentially do the same thing for all of the symbols?
17:14	marten	oh, doh. to answer my own question, java.lang.AssertionError is not a subclass of java.lang.Exception, so catching Exception doesn't help catching failing preconditions
17:15	kotarak	shales: I though you just want to remove the single function from the namespace A. But now that I think about it, you'll probably have to unalias things in B two. Does (require :reload-all 'B) help?
17:16	rys	hmm, brain fail: how would I take every nth pair of items from a seq, until the seq is completely evaluated?
17:18	kotarak	rys: quick guess (take-nth 2 (partition 2 ...))
17:18	kotarak	,(take-nth 2 (partition 2 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12]))
17:18	clojurebot	((1 2) (5 6) (9 10))
17:19	rys	sweet, just what I needed
17:19	rys	thanks
17:25	erikcw1	When I try to use SLIME commands (such as C-c C-x) from aquamacs, I get "Symbol's function definition is void: lisp-eval-last-sexp". I'm using M-x slime-connect in conjunction with "lein swank". Anyone have any ideas as to why my keybinding aren't working?
17:28	slyphon	aquamacs is Emacs 0.22.x, i think there's a note that says the swank-clojure thing is written for 0.23.x
17:30	erikcw1	slyphon: I'm on emacs 23 - -I'm using 2.0
17:30	erikcw1	aquamacs 2.0 that is
17:30	slyphon	hrm
17:30	slyphon	weird
17:30	slyphon	dunno then
17:37	shales	kotarak: the (require :reload-all 'B) didn't work. It's as you suspected though. After moving the function foo from A to B and doing C-c C-k in A's buffer, there is still this (get (ns-refers 'B) 'foo) => #'A/foo
17:38	kotarak	(doc ns-unmap=
17:38	clojurebot	EOF while reading
17:38	kotarak	(doc ns-unmap)
17:38	clojurebot	"([ns sym]); Removes the mappings for the symbol from the namespace."
17:39	kotarak	shales: you could simply try ns-unmap for foo in B.
17:39	kotarak	shales: or ns-unalias
17:40	shales	yeah, I did. ns-unmap works, but it's a pain to remember what was moved and do that for each symbol
17:40	kotarak	I don't know whether this refers to namespace aliases, though
17:41	slyphon	so, with defmacro, if there's a &blah in the params, there must be more params?
17:43	kotarak	slyphon: no
17:43	slyphon	kotarak: https://gist.github.com/c969b7ac480d5d663e5e
17:44	arohner	Is there anything I can do to reduce the occurrence of PermGen errors?
17:44	slyphon	arohner: yes
17:44	slyphon	one sec
17:45	slyphon	http://blog.headius.com/2009/01/my-favorite-hotspot-jvm-flags.html
17:45	slyphon	-XX:MaxPermSize=512M
17:46	arohner	slyphon: but I'm leaking if I run out of permgen, right?
17:46	slyphon	hm?
17:46	slyphon	well
17:46	dnolen	it seems like Clojure is really picking up steam in Japan from all the tweets.
17:46	slyphon	there's another arg i use with jruby
17:46	slyphon	one sec
17:46	arohner	what typically happens is I'll leave a repl open, and after several hours of developing, I hit the rmGen error
17:46	slyphon	oh
17:47	slyphon	well, yeah, you're generating a lot of class garbage
17:48	slyphon	i use -XX:+UseConcMarkSweepGC -XX:+CMSClassUnloadingEnabled
17:48	slyphon	that really helped with long-running jruby processes, might help with clojure
17:50	kotarak	slyphon: maybe something like this? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/193515
17:50	arohner	slyphon: thanks!
17:50	slyphon	arohner: sure
17:50	slyphon	kotarak: ahh, that looks promising
17:51	slyphon	kotarak: thanks
17:51	kotarak	np
17:51	noss	is there any killer app in clojure that is not related to being a dev tool on clojure projects?
17:53	arohner	noss: you mean a killer app of clojure, aside from developing in the language?
17:53	noss	arohner, yeah
17:54	noss	im sitting here as an erlang programmer, feeling a bit skeptical about the concurrency primitives in clojure. I want to see it used in a complex app.
18:00	Raynes	No.
18:00	Raynes	Not in the traditional "killer app" sense.
18:01	Raynes	I'm sure there is a complex concurrent app around somewhere though.
18:02	noss	any real-life things then? a web app? a wiki... etc?
18:02	dnolen	noss: I think Penumbra is pretty interesting, it's for OpenGL. But you can safely and easily update the world state from multiple threads of execution, even though OpenGL itself is single threaded. but that applies to any app reall.
18:02	dnolen	noss: web apps are not a good real world case since, http is stateless anyway. perhaps a complex web service, but not your average web app.
18:03	noss	web apps do more than communicate over http.
18:05	slyphon	kotarak: works like a charm, thanks!
18:06	kotarak	slyphon: :)
18:11	Drakeson	what is the current way for generating a [named] class dynamically?
18:15	Chousuke	Drakeson: is that even possible?
18:16	Drakeson	I don't know how dynamic it can be.
18:16	kotarak	Drakeson: you can do it once, but when the class is loaded it is put in concrete. (At least this is my understanding)
18:17	Drakeson	that is still [kinda] OK.
18:18	kotarak	Drakeson: but this is only a vague understanding on my side. Take with grain of salt.
18:34	joshua-choi	Is there any value in writing a Clojure parser in pure Clojure—that is, without any calls to Java methods—as opposed to having Java methods here and there?
18:34	Chousuke	joshua-choi: that would be quite the feat
18:34	joshua-choi	You mean, yes?
18:35	programble	where java isnt broke, clojure doesnt fix it
18:35	joshua-choi	Oh, "feat". I read is as fact. :)
18:35	Chousuke	it might be useful for non-java clojures too, so maybe. :P
18:35	programble	its on the JVM, feel free to use the Java API
18:35	joshua-choi	Chousuke: That's what I was thinking of.
18:35	joshua-choi	I'm wondering if it would be useful for any bootstrapping
18:36	joshua-choi	But if there's no point, I won't bother, since Java methods are really fast
18:36	Chousuke	I wrote a reader in clojure a while back but it didn't turn out that good :)
18:36	joshua-choi	I have a finished product
18:36	Chousuke	it was pretty ad-hoc
18:36	joshua-choi	But I'm wondering if it would be worth testing and debugging
18:36	Chousuke	does it use only core clojure? :/
18:37	Chousuke	ie. no external libraries
18:37	joshua-choi	And clojure.contrib.monads and clojure.template, which do not use any Java methods to my knowledge.
18:37	Chousuke	(java counts as core clojure :P)
18:37	joshua-choi	Yeah...
18:38	Chousuke	I would really like to see any of the java parts in clojure replaced with a clojure solution, so I'm supportive
18:38	joshua-choi	Would a Clojure parser that uses Java methods still be useful?
18:39	Chousuke	probably
18:39	Chousuke	it will have to use java methods at some point anyway
18:39	Chousuke	what matters is just how well it's hidden
18:39	joshua-choi	Well, I'm assuming that clojure.core's functions are the bottom line
18:39	joshua-choi	But that might not be a useful distinction, maybe...
18:40	Chousuke	you can't do IO or string operations with just clojure.core though :)
18:40	joshua-choi	At least until Clojure isn't unique to the JVM anymore
18:40	joshua-choi	Yeah, I'm starting with strings only
18:40	Chousuke	but once it's mostly clojure, wrapping the java parts should be trivial if the need arises to port it to another host
18:40	joshua-choi	String inputs, I mean
18:40	joshua-choi	Yeah, that's right
18:41	mitkok	Anyone using swank-clojure without package.el ( elpa ) ?
18:41	Chousuke	I think I am. :P
18:41	joshua-choi	It's things like Integer/parseInt and Character.toUpperCase anyway
18:43	joshua-choi	Well, I'll keep the pure Clojure version around as a proof-of-concept, I guess; for showing off my library, if nothing else :)
18:43	Chousuke	heh.
18:44	Chousuke	I don't think it would hurt to ask what Rich and others think about it.
18:45	Chousuke	and it might turn out to be useful for IDE plugins or something
18:46	Chousuke	but, sleep. later.
18:46	joshua-choi	Good night. If it's night.
18:47	Raynes	Nighttime is constant. Day is an illusion.
18:47	joshua-choi	Java question: does Character/isDigit accept non-ASCII digits such as Devanagari and fullwidth digits?
18:48	joshua-choi	I can't test it on my REPL
18:48	Drakeson	Can I access a not-AOT-compiled clojure function or class from java? (i.e., does the class have to be on the disk?)
18:48	arohner	mitkok: yeah, I am
18:49	arohner	Drakeson: you can get at it through the var
18:49	arohner	Drakeson: I don't have a running repl at the moment, but it's something like v = Var.find("foo"); v.invoke();
18:50	arohner	invoke takes the same args that the clojure fn takes
18:50	Drakeson	how do I get at the namespace? Var.find("the.namespace.foo") ?
18:51	kotarak	Or v = RT.var("the-namespace", "the-var")
18:51	Drakeson	thanks
18:51	mitkok	arohner: Can you show how you load it, I used to load it like this: http://github.com/mitkok/emacs/blob/master/defunkt/clojure.el, but now it gives me error on (require 'swank-clojure-autoload)
18:51	kotarak	When would one use == instead of =?
18:51	mitkok	arohner: I'm using joshu swank-clojure and clojure-mode, not technomancy's
18:52	arohner	I do (add-to-list 'load-path "~/Programming/swank-clojure")
18:52	arohner	(require 'slime)
18:53	arohner	I have a separate script that starts up my clojure process, and then I connect through M-x slime-connect
18:53	arohner	kotarak: when you want fast integer compares
18:54	arohner	mitkok: which slime are you using?
18:55	arohner	CVS Head slime is known not to work for clojure
18:55	mitkok	arohner: I have a clone of git://git.boinkor.net/slime.git
18:55	arohner	mitkok: I'm using technomancy's github mirror of slime, and technomancy's swank-clojure and clojure-mode
18:56	mitkok	arohner: but doesn't these repos depend on package.el ?
18:56	arohner	maybe? I don't know
18:56	arohner	I think I have elpa installed, but I'm not using it for any clojure stuff
18:57	mitkok	because in the readme you have to geto the repos and install it with M-x package-install-from-buffer
19:14	alexyk	I have a sequence of vectors, each of pairs. I can convert each into a map with (into {} v), that'll do transients for me. But what about several such v's, [v u]?
19:17	_mst	maybe reduce?
19:17	_mst	,(reduce into {} [[[:a :b]] [[:c :d]] [[:e :f]]])
19:17	clojurebot	{:a :b, :c :d, :e :f}
19:19	alexyk	I was thinking about that, should be ok
19:19	alexyk	can you deref in #(..) as #(.. @% ..) ?
19:19	alexyk	or have to use (deref %) ?
19:20	_mst	yep, @% should work
19:26	alexyk	how do you destructure struct's?
19:27	alexyk	if you do
19:28	The-Kenny	Just like hashmaps I think
19:29	_invis	In the labrepl:
19:29	_invis	Our first reduce example showed using reduce to perform repeated addition. But in Clojure, the + function can itself perform repeated addition! What advantages does reduce offer over implicit reduction within a funtion?
19:29	_invis	Could you tell me what they mean ?
19:31	alexyk	The-Kenny: yep. thx
19:31	qbg	_invis: Why would you use (reduce + coll) instead of (apply + coll)
19:31	The-Kenny	alexyk: structs are just maps with some special, more efficient backend
19:31	qbg	?
19:32	_invis	qbg: dont know
19:34	_invis	qbg: what authors mean when told What advantages does reduce offer over implicit reduction within a funtion? ??
19:36	qbg	I'm not sure that there is much of a difference....
19:36	qbg	I know why you wouldn't want to use (apply + coll) in CL, but that doesn't apply here
19:37	_invis	emm so why ?
19:37	qbg	_invis: Why in CL?
19:38	_invis	yes
19:38	qbg	CALL-ARGUMENTS-LIMIT
19:38	_invis	I just dont know what the difference between apply and reduce. So I dont care what to use.
19:39	programble	apply is like
19:39	programble	(apply + (1 2 3))
19:39	programble	makes
19:39	programble	(+ 1 2 3)
19:39	clojurebot	suffusion of yellow
19:40	programble	(reduce + (1 2 3))
19:40	programble	would be
19:40	_invis	,(apply + '(1 2 3))
19:40	clojurebot	6
19:40	programble	well
19:40	programble	same in this case
19:40	_invis	,(reduce + '(1 2 3))
19:40	clojurebot	6
19:40	programble	bad example
19:40	programble	lol
19:41	qbg	(reduce + (1 2 3)) == (+ (+ 1 2) 3)
19:41	_invis	,(apply + (1 2 3))
19:41	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
19:41	_invis	,(reduce + (1 2 3))
19:41	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
19:41	_invis	you wrong
19:42	_invis	I think )
19:42	qbg	,(reduce + '(1 2 3))
19:42	clojurebot	6
19:42	programble	need the '
19:42	_invis	so what the different with apply ?
19:42	programble	(reduce + '(1 2 3)) == (+ (+ 1 2) 3)
19:42	_invis	yes I know
19:42	programble	(apply + '(1 2 3)) == (+ 1 2 3)
19:42	_invis	:)
19:43	_invis	reduce is recursion that's it ?
19:43	qbg	I think the only real question is which one is more idiomatic
19:43	_invis	I ask you not about apply :0
19:43	_invis	*:)
19:43	_invis	What advantages does reduce offer over implicit reduction within a funtion?
19:43	noss	,(reduce #(list 'x %) '(1 2 3))
19:43	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: sandbox$eval--3729$fn
19:44	noss	hmm.
19:45	qbg	I'd think that explicit reduce would be more idiomatic
19:45	joshua-choi	noss: The function needs two arguments. If you didn't know. :)
19:46	noss	,(reduce #(list 'x %1 %2) '(1 2 3))
19:46	clojurebot	(x (x 1 2) 3)
19:48	_invis	is this advantage about authors told ?
19:50	qbg	I don't know what the authors are looking for.
19:51	_invis	hmm ok
19:51	_invis	ty
20:04	_invis	(reverse "foobar")
20:04	_invis	Why is reverse's behavior the right thing to do, even for strings, and what options can/should be provided for String->String functions?
20:04	_invis	O_o
20:04	Raynes	,(apply str (reverse "foobar"))
20:04	clojurebot	"raboof"
20:04	_invis	thanks
20:05	programble	raboof lol
20:05	_invis	the same as reduce
20:07	alexyk	I'm debugging agents. They have errors. How do I terminate whatever an agent was doing?
20:07	alexyk	or reset it
20:09	alexyk	or, how do I inspect which errors an agents has?
20:10	seths	,(find-doc #"agent.+error")
20:10	clojurebot	------------------------- clojure.core/agent-errors ([a]) Returns a sequence of the exceptions thrown during asynchronous actions of the agent. ------------------------- clojure.core/clear-agent-errors ([a]) Clears any exceptions thrown during asynchronous actions of the agent, allowing subsequent actions to occur.
20:34	alexyk	seths: you did it again
20:34	seths	wow, I must have superpowers that I don't know about
20:34	seths	magic net-splitting powers
20:35	alexyk	magic incantation is "uh oh"
20:35	alexyk	Bill Gates rebooted the internet again
20:36	seths	lol
20:40	defn	Licenser: around still?
20:40	defn	Licenser: had a chance to fix that issue with walton? I'm going to work on performance for awhile tonight I think
20:53	defn	whoa. i think im close to figuring out how to get circumspec working! :)
21:05	seths	defn: have you checked out labrepl?
21:05	seths	it has a working config, even with file-system watchers to rerun tests after app code changes
21:06	seths	http://github.com/relevance/labrepl
21:10	defn	oh sweet
21:10	defn	thanks seths
21:12	hiredman	clojurebot: ping?
21:12	clojurebot	PONG!
21:12	hiredman	excellent
21:12	defn	,(doc try)
21:12	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
21:13	hiredman	special forms are special cased in the real doc function, but I haven't done it in clojurebot's doc
21:18	defn	oh nevermind seths -- looks like that's for netbeans only
21:18	defn	nvm
21:18	seths	defn: labrepl is a leiningen app
21:18	defn	nod i see that now -- i just hadnt read beyond a couple headings :)
21:18	seths	when I used it in the Clojure training course I was running it from Emacs / swank-clojure
21:18	defn	oh man I wish I could have went to that
21:18	defn	how much $ was it?
21:18	seths	we were Stu's guinea pig
21:19	seths	company paid, but at least $1500 I think, depending on alumni discount
21:19	seths	another course in May
21:19	seths	Stu and Rich autographed my copy of Programming Clojure :-)
21:19	seths	best training ever
21:19	seths	,101r3
21:19	clojurebot	Invalid number: 101r3
21:20	qbg	,3r101
21:20	clojurebot	10
21:20	seths	ah, ty
21:21	alexyk	how do you use doto to compress: (.print System/err s) (.flush System/err) ?
21:21	qbg	(doto System/err (.print s) .flush)
21:21	alexyk	thx
21:22	defn	holy labrepl dependencies batman
21:23	seths	lol
21:23	qbg	Not having tried it, it doesn't look that bad...
21:23	seths	maven is your friendly internet backup tool
21:23	seths	it backs up the internet to your computer
22:23	qbg	Why can't I destructure in the arglist in the implementation of a protocol method in deftype?
22:25	brian__	hi, I am trying congomongo, I create the database , then when I do this: (insert! :robots {:name "robby"}) , i get com.mongodb.MongoException$Network: can't say something (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
22:26	seths	qbg: I asked that to Rich
22:27	shales	Should a recur work in one of the result-expr of a case? I'm getting a "Can only recur from tail position" error
22:27	seths	trying to remember what he said
22:27	shales	this doesn't compile (defn foo [] (case 1 1 (recur)))
22:29	seths	my take on what he said was that the [bar baz] in (deftype Foo [bar baz]) defined a list of fields
22:30	seths	it's not a function call at that moment
22:30	seths	a factory method (and constructor for Java) is defined for that list of fields
22:30	seths	and the factory method seems like a good place for destructuring
22:31	seths	but not sure how to add that between listing the type's fields and defining the factory function?
22:31	qbg	I'm talking about something like (deftype Rect [p1 p2] Shape (contains [[x y]] ...))
22:31	seths	I am probably misrepresenting Rich horribly
22:31	qbg	I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing
22:31	underdev	does anyone know a command to clear the repl of the functions used in the current session
22:31	qbg	(I'm talking about the contains part)
22:31	underdev	?
22:32	qbg	underdev: Before I've just removed all of the interned vars from the namespace
22:32	seths	ah, I was talking about p1 p2
22:32	qbg	I don't like having to do (contains [point] (let [[x y] point] ...))
22:33	seths	qbg: so you want something like (deftype Rect [[x1 y1] [x2 y2]] (contains [x1 y1] ...)) ?
22:33	seths	roughly?
22:34	qbg	No, just destructuring in the function/whatever definition
22:34	seths	ah ok
22:34	qbg	The arity is already known, so I don't see why it couldn't be provided.
22:34	seths	I didn't ask that question :-)
22:35	seths	sorry for the confusion
22:35	qbg	no problem
22:36	qbg	underdev: Something like (map #(ns-unmap ns %) (keys (ns-interns ns)))
22:52	underdev	qbg: thanks, i was having a collision. I just changed the namespace.
22:53	underdev	qbg: clever idea though~
22:54	qbg	Actually (doseq [sym (keys (ns-interns ns))] (ns-unmap ns sym)) would be more correct
22:58	defn	anyone here familiar with incanter?
22:59	liebke	defn: what's up?
22:59	defn	oh nothing really at the moment -- i was thinking about cheating and asking someone to solve my problem for me but then thought better of it
23:00	liebke	ah :)
23:00	defn	BUT...since I have the man himself here... I have a structure that looks like {"1.1.1.1" {:count 5 :country "US"}}
23:00	defn	only it is much larger obviously
23:00	defn	im interested in graphing some of that in incanter and was wondering where a good place to start might be
23:01	defn	sort of an open ended question i know, but if you don't have a good answer I can experiment for a bit
23:01	defn	<--first time incanter user
23:02	defn	liebke: perhaps a more fitting question would be to ask which clojar i should be using :)
23:02	liebke	defn: if you converted that structure into an array of maps, like {:count 5 :country "US"}, you'd pretty much have an incanter dataset, which you could use in bar-chart (or line-chart)
23:03	liebke	what do you mean by which clojar?
23:03	defn	err, there are several incanters on clojars.org
23:03	defn	was just wondering which is the "right" one
23:03	defn	im using [incanter "1.0-master-SNAPSHOT"] IIRC
23:03	liebke	ah, don't use the version on clojars, they are old. go to http://repo.incanter.org
23:04	defn	awesome -- thanks
23:05	liebke	defn: I'm about to sign off, but if you have more questions, just send an email to the Incanter Google group
23:20	brandonw	is there a way to have an atom be a seq, and then change the atom such that it equals the second half of a call to split-at, while retaining the first half of split-at for something else?
23:20	brandonw	or should i just use a ref for that type of thing?
23:21	defn	(:use [clojure.contrib.duck-streams :exclude (copy)]...
23:21	defn	that should work right?
23:22	defn	copy already refers to: #'clojure.contrib.duck-streams/copy in namespace: geoip.core
23:22	brandonw	i guess what i need to do isn't truly an atomic operation
23:23	arohner	brandonw: what do you mean "while retaining the first half"?
23:23	brandonw	i would have to do something more like a loop that continually takes the first x items out of the seq
23:23	brandonw	for example
23:23	brandonw	say i have an atom containing the value [1 2 3 4 5 6]
23:23	arohner	you can always do (swap! atom #(split-at x %))
23:23	brandonw	and i want to swap! the atom to be [5 6], but then operate on [1 2 3 4] separately
23:23	brandonw	yes, but then i wouldn't know what the first part is
23:23	arohner	ah
23:23	brandonw	i think i do need to use a ref
23:23	arohner	what do you want to do with the first half?
23:24	brandonw	i basically have a queue that i add items to
23:24	brandonw	and then every 'tick' i want to take the first x items and send them through a proxy
23:24	brandonw	and set the new queue to be the rest of the items
23:24	arohner	ther e two reasons to use refs over atoms: 1) you want multiple refs to have coordinated changes 2) you're doing something where the performance is important
23:24	arohner	err #2 is a reason to use atoms over refs
23:24	brandonw	yeah, that is what i was thinking
23:25	brandonw	i don't think i would classify what i want to do as coordinated
23:25	arohner	what is your proxy?
23:25	brandonw	since i only need to do a single change to the value
23:25	brandonw	well it is basically a vector of structs
23:25	brandonw	i want to take the first x maps, convert them into a string form to send over an actual network proxy
23:25	arohner	oh, that's important
23:26	arohner	refs and atoms are extremely likely to retry their operations
23:26	defn	(ns my.ns (:use [clojure.contrib.duck-streams :exclude (copy)] (incanter core charts))) -- even when excluding copy it is complaining that duck-streams already refers to copy
23:26	brandonw	and retain the rest of the elements for the next 'tick' (so that i never send more than a certain number at a time in order to not overload the receiver)
23:26	arohner	the things you do inside swap! or alter should be side-effect free
23:26	brandonw	right
23:26	brandonw	i am not doing the side effect in the swap
23:26	brandonw	only the splitting of the partition
23:26	arohner	you could send the other part to an agent
23:27	brandonw	but how would i get the other part from the swap! operation?
23:27	arohner	in that case, you would use a ref
23:27	arohner	the STM sends all outstanding agent sends when the transaction succeeds
23:28	arohner	(dosync (let [[first second] (split-at)] (alter foo (constantly second)) (send my-agent first)))
23:28	brandonw	if i can only do (swap! queue (second #(split-at x %)))
23:28	brandonw	right
23:28	brandonw	that's what i was thinking
23:28	brandonw	so is this actually considered a coordinated change?
23:28	brandonw	even though i technically am only performing a single operation on the atom?
23:29	arohner	if you want the agent send thing, I think you need to use a ref
23:29	brandonw	well, ignoring the agent piece of it
23:29	brandonw	forget i said anything about a proxy or anything else
23:29	arohner	yes (swap! queue (second #(split-at x %))) is a single change
23:29	brandonw	if i had something like (swap! queue (second #(split-at x %))) to modify the queue in the atom, is there any way to retain the first piece of that split-at?
23:30	arohner	a second atom, but that's a little weird
23:30	brandonw	how is it weird exactly?
23:31	brandonw	this is my first foray into the threading pieces of clojure, i'm just trying to make sure i have the foundations right
23:31	arohner	actually
23:32	brandonw	how would you even do it with a second atom? it seems like the process of swapping the atom means there is no way to retain the first piece of the split-at call
23:32	arohner	(let [[first second] (split-at...) (swap! a (constantly first)) (swap! b (constantly second)))
23:32	brandonw	since the function call to swap it has to be within the context of the swap! call, and if i split them before the call to atom, then i risk the atom being modified after i bind a local var to the result sof the split-at but before i call swap!
23:33	arohner	is this called from multiple threads?
23:33	arohner	I guess that's a bad question in clojure
23:33	brandonw	yes, there will be other threads
23:33	arohner	if it matters, You're Doing It Wrong
23:33	brandonw	i should have mentioned that at the start
23:33	brandonw	yeah, that's true
23:34	brandonw	i think i'll use a ref, it seems like what i am trying to do requires a little too much coordination to fit into an atom
23:34	arohner	yeah
23:34	brandonw	i am actually porting something to clojure
23:34	brandonw	and realistically, i don't think the queue element limit will ever even be reached
23:35	brandonw	so it probably won't even matter. i might as well just skip the split and just swap! to a new emtpy seq, and pass the current value of the atom through the proxy :D
23:35	brandonw	but.. i shouldn't be lazy, haha
23:35	brandonw	i'll do it right :)
23:40	brandonw	whoaaaaa
23:40	brandonw	i'm a dope
23:40	brandonw	i just realized... it's a queue
23:40	brandonw	anything added after i get a value of the atom won't matter
23:41	brandonw	i can split it up beforehand, because as long as i only remove the number of elements in the seq i split, then it will still be consistent
23:42	brandonw	so i could do like you said: (let [first-piece (split-at x @atom-var)] (swap! atom-var #(drop (count first-piece) %)))
23:42	brandonw	and that would work perfectly
23:42	defn	How would I use destructuring to get {:foo {:bar 1 :baz 2}} => [{:bar 1 :baz 2}]?
23:45	defn	,(let [[_ [bar baar baz baaz]] {:foo {:bar 1 :baz 2}}] bar baar baz baaz)
23:45	clojurebot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: PersistentArrayMap
23:45	defn	hmm
23:50	brandonw	i definitely need to learn destructuring; haven't used it much yet
23:50	defn	yeah im struggling with it
23:50	defn	:\
23:53	defn	it seems like this should be a lot easier than im making it
23:55	brandonw	i think (with almost no experience destructuring) that the correct way would be:
23:55	brandonw	,(let [{i :foo} {:foo {:bar 1 :baz 2}}] [i])
23:55	clojurebot	[{:bar 1, :baz 2}]
23:56	defn	huh... how does that work...
23:56	brandonw	the part where you add a vector to the value-- i don't think you can do that in destructuring, since a vector isn't part of the initial structure
23:56	defn	i think you can with :ivec maybe
23:56	brandonw	basically, you pull the value corresponding to the :foo key of the arg, and wrap a vector around it
23:57	brandonw	what is :ivec?
23:57	brandonw	haven't heard of it
23:57	defn	im about to find out :)
23:57	defn	im just reading the special_forms doc on clojure.org
23:58	defn	,(let [{i :foo} :ivec {:foo {:bar 1 :baz 2}}] i)
23:58	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: let requires an even number of forms in binding vector
23:58	defn	hmm that's not it
23:59	brandonw	only docs i find on :ivec is on the special forms page, and i can't figure out at all what it does
23:59	brandonw	i think my solution would work though
23:59	defn	brandonw: i think it is short for internal vector
23:59	brandonw	if you have a map as an input, i'm not sure if you can destructure it into a vec, since a vec isn't part of its initial structure