#clojure – 2010-03-04

2010-03-04

01:46	konr	test
01:55	TheBusby	You are about to enter another dimension. A dimension not only of sight and sound, but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land of imagination. Next stop, the Twilight Zone!
01:55	TheBusby	(which is the hours the US West sleeps, until EU awakes)
02:08	zmila	pre-US awaken
02:09	gregh	it's prime time for down under
02:23	langtree	Does anyone know who supports the Ubuntu clojure package ?
02:37	cads	langtree: seems to be a guy named peter collingbourne: http://packages.debian.org/sid/devel/clojure
02:38	cads	langtree: also, this is the first time I've heard of this, thanks!
02:41	langtree	No problem. It needs to get the readline type thing integrated.
04:03	esj	Good Morning Parentherati
04:09	zmila	u 2
08:48	esj	i'm trying to define a macro that returns a function who's name is constructed, but I'm failing: (defmacro alter-name [name] `(defn (symbol ~name) [x#] x#)). Any hints ?
08:49	cgrand	esj: (defmacro alter-name [name] `(defn ~(symbol name) [x#] x#))
08:51	esj	splendid, thanks.
08:58	aldebrn	Shot-in-the-dark noob question: to implement a distributed linear algebra algorithm (conjugate gradient solver, on an implicitly-defined matrix, such that there will be some inter-node communication), should one look at Cascading/Hadoop?
09:01	esj	potentially uninformed answer: but conj-grad is pretty serial in nature, ie after each iter you get to a point in spcae, and recalc your gradient. Hadoop is better for batch jobs, ie where you calculate a bunch of stuff in parallel and the bring it all together. So I don't think its a good match. No doubt somebody can correct me, though ;)
09:05	esj	maybe I misunderstood - if the gradient calculation based on your implicitly defined matrix is what you're looking to do in parallel, then it makes more sense. I'm not sure what the overhead in living in Hadoop for that would be.
09:09	aldebrn	esj, all your intuitions are right. The matrix itself is implicitly defined and is pleasingly parallel, and the solution vector that's being solved for is too large to fit on one node. So each node would store a chunk of the solution vector, and code for the implicit operation.
09:10	esj	wow, that's some serious crunching.
09:11	aldebrn	My HPC colleagues are going to jump on this and do it in their custom MPI-like frameworks, but I'd like to learn more about using Cascading/Clojure on such problems.
09:13	aldebrn	Yeah, if y=Ax, y is "short" and each node has that; x is very "tall" and has to be distributed-stored. A is short-and-fat, and is basically an FFT matrix (with a pre-multiplier). And I will need to do CG repeatedly, changing that pre-multiplier till convergence.
09:13	esj	enjoy
09:13	aldebrn	I meant, A is a concatenation of multiple FFT matrixes, /fix
09:26	esj	If I understand, you can definitely do this is a Hadoop setup. Your distributed calculation looks like Ax = A_1x_1 + ... + A_nx_n, where each i happens on a machine in the cluster. So the map part is A_i*x_i, and the reduce is the sum. Then you have Ax. Is that what you're after ?
09:29	esj	so you do that, fiddle your A according to CG or whatnot, distribute it to the cluster, wash, repeat.
09:39	powr-toc	Does clojure have a bidirectional map at all?
09:50	powr-toc	ok, I can make one with: (let [m {:foo "foo" :bar "bar"}] (merge m (apply hash-map (mapcat (fn [[a b]] [b a]) m))))
09:51	aldebrn	esj, quite right. That's encouraging. I've been searching for some literature on math + hadoop/cascading (I'd rather use Cascading), nothing yet, besides some matrix-multiply examples from Hama and an example for computing digits of pi with Hadoop
09:52	chouser	,(into {} (for [[b a] {:foo "foo" :bar "bar"}] [a b]))
09:52	clojurebot	{"foo" :foo, "bar" :bar}
09:52	esj	aldebrn: this might have some interesting stuff http://lucene.apache.org/mahout/
09:55	aldebrn	esj, quite so, I was slightly discouraged though by this statement there, 'They are not intended for applications requiring vectors or matrices that exceed the size of a single JVM, though such applications might be able to utilize them within a larger organizing framework.'
09:55	aldebrn	It does seem like that could be a part of the solution
09:56	esj	bummer, it was a stab in the dark, sorry.
10:06	powr-toc	is there anyway for a function to know the name of the symbol or var it is bound to?
10:07	powr-toc	or do I need to do a big search of ns-interns?
10:14	powr-toc	Infact, is there a way for a function to get a hold its own value... i.e. is there a concept of this or self?
10:17	chouser	you can name a function locally and then use that name
10:24	stuartsierra	,((fn thisfn [] (prn thisfn)))
10:24	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval__11043$thisfn__11045 sandbox$eval__11043$thisfn__11045@c6344f>
10:28	powr-toc	chouser: cool
10:29	powr-toc	chouser: can you reuse the names?
10:29	powr-toc	without overwriting function definitions?
10:29	powr-toc	i'm guessing you can
10:33	chouser	they're local names -- same scope as the fn's parameters
10:40	jcromartie	I've got compojure set up to serve files with (GET "/" (or (serve-file (: params)) :next))
10:40	jcromartie	and public/404.html exists, among other things
10:41	jcromartie	but I still get java.io.FileNotFoundException for any route
10:41	jcromartie	I have (ANY "*" (page-not-found)) set up too
10:42	jcromartie	slime seems to be running in my home directory
10:42	jcromartie	hmm
10:46	jcromartie	what's the proper way to start swank-clojure-project so that the current directory of the clojure process is the project dir?
10:50	jcromartie	I think I just have to run my dev REPL from the command line?
10:52	spariev__	are you using lein ? lein swank + slime-connect work flawlessly for me
10:53	jcromartie	ah, I haven't used that before
10:53	jcromartie	I'll try it
10:55	bsteuber	jcromartie: I ran into a similar issue with swank-clojure-project - when loading a file, my current directory was src, not the project root
10:56	bsteuber	so I wrote a function that recursed outwards until I was at the project root
10:56	bsteuber	which smells very fishy, of course :)
10:56	jcromartie	ah, yes
10:56	jcromartie	yes it does
10:56	jcromartie	I mean ideally we'd not be depending on the current directory at all
11:00	spariev__	I wish Clojure was free of all these Java oddnesses while keeping wast amount of libs and reliable VM :)
11:00	bsteuber	:)
11:01	bsteuber	maybe swank-clojure-project and lein swank should set something like project-directory
11:01	bsteuber	or maybe they do already and I don't know
11:03	jcromartie	spariev__: I just see it as a working directory thing
11:03	jcromartie	all processes have to deal with it
11:03	jcromartie	but I guess other processes can cd
11:03	jcromartie	java can't?
11:03	spariev__	yep, you're right
11:05	spariev__	http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4045688 - here's relevant bug with WontFix resolution
11:09	DeusExPikachu	i can't import java.util.concurrent, is there something I need to change in my classpath?
11:09	DeusExPikachu	my java version is 1.6.0
12:25	stuartsierra	DeusExPikachu: you can't import a package.
12:27	DeusExPikachu	stuartsierra, ok, I see my problem now
12:42	esj	I was puzzling around an equivalent of the GoF Decorate pattern for Clojure. I've put together an idea of what it could look like http://gist.github.com/321938. Any thoughts ?
12:44	esj	doubtless it can be done my a clueful person in 3 lines :)
12:44	chouser	did you consider storing the decorations in the collection's metadata?
12:45	esj	i had not. i'm not sure they're orgothonal though. will need to think about that.
12:46	chouser	not sure either. I don't quite see what decorators are doing yet. :-)
12:52	esj	yeah, its probably totally twisted up. The idea is just to have a polymorphic function which composes itself based on an attribute of the state passed in.
12:53	esj	So in my work you have a collection, and an add function. Now for some collections you want them to be db-backed, and or of fixed size. So you decorate the collection such that (add ...) will add data, write to the db, resize etc according to the collections decorations.
12:55	mattrepl	technomancy: any reason not to add "resources/" to classpath in `swank-clojure-project`?
12:55	esj	this was the first time I've actually used macros, so that was quite fun
12:57	mattrepl	esj: that sounds very side-effect-y
12:58	esj	actually its all functional
12:58	esj	everything is threaded
12:58	esj	no side-effects at all
13:00	esj	ok, other than writing to the DB, but that's just in the example
13:00	mattrepl	ah, I was thinking of 'add' in the sense of math operator. yeah, that part is difficult to avoid and get thing done though. =)
13:02	technomancy	mattrepl: I think it does now
13:02	chouser	esj: in your examples you're mutating test-fn, aren't you?
13:03	esj	chouser: this is true, in the exact sense that (def-method ...) mutates a multimethod.
13:03	mattrepl	technomancy: in elpa?
13:04	mattrepl	I'm looking at 1.1.0 from elpa
13:05	esj	chouser: woops, I'm wrong. test-fn just calls the a multifunction, once defined its not altered. The macros just add methods to the multifunction
13:08	duncanm	anyone good with Swing here? I'm adding a component to a JToolbar, how can I set the size (width) of the component so it doesn't span the entire toolbar?
13:15	arohner	I think I remember hearing someone wrote an (assert) function that printed the arguments when the assert failed. Is that true?
13:15	arohner	i.e. (assert (foo? bar)) would print the eval'd value of bar in the assert exception message
13:19	technomancy	mattrepl: no, I haven't released a new version
13:19	technomancy	so far it's just in git
13:19	technomancy	I hope to give it some attention and maybe a new release soon
13:21	mattrepl	technomancy: cool, thanks for maintaining it
13:21	technomancy	maintaining is probably too strong a word for what I'm doing with it, but sure. =)
14:14	stuartsierra	arohner: clojure.test does that, more or less
14:46	wthidden	I have a list of keys and a list of values how do i transform this pair of lists to a hashmap?
14:47	wthidden	i thought there was a function that did this nicely, but I forgot where?
14:47	_fogus_	,(doc zipmap)
14:47	clojurebot	"([keys vals]); Returns a map with the keys mapped to the corresponding vals."
14:47	bosie	how would one go about using a immutable data structure for a concurrency program?
14:48	_fogus_	wthidden: ^^^^^^^^
14:48	wthidden	ah.. no hash in the function name what so ever.. :) thanks _fogus_
14:52	_fogus_	wthidden: my pleasure
14:53	technomancy	bosie: like this: (send (agent []) conj 1)
14:53	technomancy	but that is a pretty vague question.
14:54	bosie	technomancy: right. but isn't that pretty much the same as using threads in java?
14:54	bosie	technomancy: at that point
14:55	technomancy	bosie: that example is so trivial that it's meaningless to compare it to non-FP approaches, yes.
14:55	bosie	technomancy: ?
14:55	bosie	technomancy: whatever you do, if the datat structure is immutable i have to enforce thread isolation
14:56	technomancy	I just mean your initial question is so broad as to be difficult to give a useful answer for.
14:56	technomancy	you don't have to enforce thread isolation with immutable data structures, no.
14:56	bosie	sorry i meant mutuable
14:56	bosie	since i won't use the datastructure from clojure
14:57	technomancy	oh, I see. yes, that's much trickier. putting it in an agent will enforce thread isolation.
14:58	technomancy	there are other ways, but that's the most straightforward I think.
14:58	chouser	well, not really. putting it in an agent and promising to not change the value outside the agent does work.
14:58	chouser	but calling it enforcement might be a bit much.
14:59	technomancy	true, it's not actually isolation. you just have to promise to always modify it inside send.
14:59	chouser	using a cell comes closer to enforcement, but they're not fully baked yet
15:02	bosie	great
15:04	bosie	that takes the fun out of clojure
15:04	triyo_	Any work or thoughts happening around Clojure and support for actor model for distributed programming?
15:05	chouser	trying to do multithreads with uncontrolled mutable objects isn't fun in any language
15:06	bosie	chouser: true but is there any documentation out there in clojure?
15:06	bosie	chouser: because at least java is documented/has a concurrency book out that is rather decent
15:07	_fogus_	bosie: I assume you mean the Goetz book no?
15:07	bosie	yes
15:08	chouser	all the Java concurrency features are available, and if you're using someone else's mutable objects, applicable.
15:09	bosie	chouser: COLT :/
15:09	chouser	Incanter?
15:10	bosie	chouser: yea maybe, but the features of incanter aren't looking that impressive so far
15:10	chouser	I just wondered if you were using it, as there might be examples of what you want there.
15:11	hiredman	and the problem with using colt directly is what?
15:11	chouser	you're asking me?
15:11	hiredman	anyone
15:11	bosie	hiredman: wouldn't that give me mutable data structures?
15:11	chouser	oh. I assume just that colt's matrix objects are mutable
15:11	bosie	chouser: yea me too
15:12	_fogus_	bosie: I'm not sure that Incanter was written to solve the problems of concurrent programming.
15:12	hiredman	bosie: yes, and?
15:12	hiredman	as chouser said all the java concurrency stuff is available for use with java style mutable objects
15:12	bosie	hiredman: but why bothering with clojure then?
15:14	Chousuke	because it's better in other ways too :)
15:14	chouser	clojure's agents and cells (if you're feeling adventurous) can be helpful and more convenient than similar constructs in Java.
15:14	hiredman	because even when using locking instead of the stm clojure still has all the benefits of a lisp
15:14	chouser	Also macros, REPL, seq abstraction, multimethods, etc.
15:14	bosie	hiredman: being slow? ;)
15:14	hiredman	code as date & macros, much nicer to read and write than java
15:14	hiredman	bosie: why do you think lisp is slow?
15:15	bosie	hiredman: not lisp, just clojure
15:15	hiredman	why do you think clojure is slow?
15:15	bosie	just a feeling i get ;)
15:15	hiredman	well, you feel wrong
15:15	bosie	looking at some blogs i guess i am right
15:16	technomancy	bosie: reflection is slow, and clojure can use a lot of reflection.
15:16	technomancy	but that doesn't mean clojure can't be fast.
15:16	hiredman	bosie: so it's not a feeling, it's from some blog posts you've read
15:16	bosie	technomancy: i can make ruby fast too by using inline C, but that ain't ruby
15:17	bosie	hiredman: and when i think about it. how can one outperform another language if its written in the language and adds tons of features?
15:17	technomancy	I can make ruby fast too by putting it on a train going at a high speed, but that is also irrelevant to the discussion.
15:18	bosie	technomancy: i am open to any articles you have about how you get performance out of clojure
15:18	technomancy	clojurebot: google ato benchmarking wide finder
15:18	clojurebot	First, out of 833 results is:
15:18	clojurebot	jessenoller.com - Python Threads and the Global Interpreter Lock
15:18	clojurebot	http://jessenoller.com/2009/02/01/python-threads-and-the-global-interpreter-lock/
15:18	technomancy	clojurebot: no botsnack for you!
15:18	clojurebot	da da king of the road
15:18	hiredman	bosie: speed is about the generated bytecode
15:18	hiredman	and what the jit does with it
15:19	technomancy	bosie: if you're in the mood for a long, in-depth read: http://meshy.org/2009/12/13/widefinder-2-with-clojure.html
15:19	chouser	or: speed is about algorithms and having the time and ability to implement good ones.
15:19	technomancy	clojurebot: widefinder is optimized by _ato: http://meshy.org/2009/12/13/widefinder-2-with-clojure.html
15:19	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
15:20	bosie	technomancy: by optimize you mean rape a dynamic language by providing type hints?
15:20	chouser	bosie: is there something we can help you with?
15:20	bosie	chouser: not really
15:22	bosie	but if anybody wants to have a crack at it: http://leon.bottou.org/projects/sgd
15:23	_fogus_	bosie: Is that your project?
15:23	bosie	no
15:27	bosie	_fogus_: does that matter?
15:28	_fogus_	bosie: not at all
15:31	bosie	technomancy\|away: in the 'final thoughts' of your link: "We can’t compete with a lower-level language like C or C++ on this sort of data crunching"
15:32	chouser	bosie: if you'd like to use C, by all means please do.
15:33	bosie	chouser: i won't. just wanted to paste that line because i got attacked before for even thinking clojurer was slow
15:33	bosie	yea ok not 'attacks'
15:34	joegg	Is there any particular place to announce clojure meetings? I setup a Pittsburgh Clojure Users Group on meetup.com, and I'd like to get the word out.
15:34	bosie	corrections
15:34	mattrepl	joegg: the mailing list and here
15:36	_fogus_	joegg: If you tweet it then it might get picked up by http://disclojure.org/
15:37	joegg	mattrepl: Okay, thanks! In that case:
15:37	joegg	I'd like to invite everyone to the first meeting of the Pittsburgh Clojure Users Group.
15:37	joegg	http://www.meetup.com/Clojure-PGH/
15:37	joegg	We're meeting next Wednesday at 7pm at The Library (a bar).
15:37	mattrepl	awesome bar name
15:37	hiredman	http://github.com/texodus/saturnine <-- oooo
15:37	joegg	In addition to a great language, we have a nifty logo.
15:39	Chousuke	arr, there needs to be some kind of public announcement discouraging single-segment namespaces
15:39	hiredman	"Common functionality built-in, including Handlers for Bytes, Strings, (simple) streaming XML, HTTP, JSON, XMPP and Clojure forms." :D
15:40	chouser	Chousuke: there are people still advocating it
15:41	mattrepl	Chousuke: ns.core or com.somedomain.ns or either?
15:42	hiredman	I think the most recetn lein release defaults to projectname.core
15:43	Chousuke	mattrepl: either.
16:17	dnolen	nice, http://enfranchisedmind.com/blog/posts/what-killed-lisp-could-kill-haskell-as-well/#comment-37144
16:40	arohner	to disable pre/post conditions, assert needs to be false at compile time, right?
16:40	arohner	or run time?
16:44	chouser	compile time
16:50	arohner	,(alter-var-root (var clojure.core/assert) (constantly false))
16:50	clojurebot	DENIED
16:51	arohner	that doesn't seem to work
16:55	arohner	aha, it was also bound in my thread
17:12	DeusExPikachu	I'm trying to implement the Executors interface using proxy and I'm getting the "No matching ctor found for..." error, How should i go about this?
17:13	kotarak	DeusExPikachu: paste the problematic code?
17:14	hiredman	DeusExPikachu: are you strying to call a constructor?
17:14	hiredman	trying
17:14	DeusExPikachu	I'll get the code pasted, one sec
17:18	DeusExPikachu	http://paste.lisp.org/+220Z
17:19	kotarak	How can defaultThreadFactory be called on a Interface?
17:20	kotarak	Maybe you have to pass some arguments to the constructor of Executors?
17:20	DeusExPikachu	kotarak, huh that's not the interface, I just need that for the method execute
17:20	DeusExPikachu	from the java API docs, there are not required args to the constructor for Executor
17:21	DeusExPikachu	http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/Executor.html
17:21	duncanm	when did clojure.contrib.io got accepted?
17:22	technomancy	duncanm: mid-february?
17:22	kotarak	DeusExPikachu: Executors does not have a public constructor it seems. Maybe you meant Executor in the proxy?
17:22	hiredman	DeusExPikachu: Executors and Executor are different
17:22	DeusExPikachu	oh crap, figured out problem, there's a difference between Executors and Executor
17:22	DeusExPikachu	yeah
18:11	DeusExPikachu	is there a given way to get all the thread names or do I have to track that myself?
18:13	technomancy	,(Thread/getAllStackTraces)
18:13	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission getStackTrace)
18:13	technomancy	DeusExPikachu: ^
18:14	hugod	technomancy, what can I do to get an updated package regexp into swank-clojure?
18:15	technomancy	hugod: if you're interested in helping out I can give you commit rights to put it in directly
18:15	hugod	ok, I could do that
18:16	technomancy	would allow you to bypass the fact that I'm a pretty crappy maintainer when it comes to swank.
18:16	aedon	could anyone give me a cannonical way to add folders to classpath when using swank/slime/clojure from elpa? or is elpa discouraged?
18:17	hugod	technomancy: better a maintainer than no maintainer
18:17	technomancy	aedon: no, elpa is great. but how the classpath is calculated depends on how you launch slime.
18:17	aedon	technomancy: so far I was doing m-x slime
18:17	aedon	but I tried slime-project? too
18:17	technomancy	aedon: you can set the emacs swank-clojure-classpath defvar to a list of jars/directories; just be sure it includes the path to clojure.jar and swank-clojure.jar
18:18	hugod	I have to projects that I might get round to with swank - debugging with jdi, and restarts for error-kit
18:18	technomancy	hugod: are you hugoduncan on github?
18:18	hugod	I am
18:18	mattrepl	there's also swank-clojure-extra-classpaths
18:18	aedon	technomancy: does it matter where in your .emacs you set that?
18:18	technomancy	hugod: cool; added
18:18	hugod	technomancy: thanks
18:19	technomancy	mattrepl: they're actually aliases for each other
18:19	technomancy	-extra is the old name
18:19	technomancy	aedon: shouldn't matter
18:19	mattrepl	oh, didn't know that changed
18:19	technomancy	btw: if anyone else wants to help out with swank maintenance please let me know
18:20	technomancy	hugod: if you can keep work out of the master branch until it's well-tested that would be great.
18:20	technomancy	hugod: I like to run it by at least one other person before merging as a rule.
18:20	aedon	technomancy: thanks for the help
18:20	hugod	technomancy: sounds wise to me
18:22	technomancy	hell of a regex you got there
18:22	technomancy	(for detecting metadata-having ns forms)
18:23	hugod	if you have other suggestions....
18:23	technomancy	not at all, just commenting on the verbosity of the elisp regex flavour
18:23	technomancy	plus it's a tricky thing to have to match.
18:23	hugod	it's not overly reliable in the face of {} in the doc string, or escaped quotes
18:24	technomancy	might end up being cleaner using something like forward-sexp
18:24	technomancy	but this is definitely an improvement
18:24	hugod	at least it picks up a few more cases
18:24	technomancy	yep, good stuff.
18:26	DeusExPikachu	technomancy, does Thread/getAllStackTraces print out blocking threads? It seems to be missing some threads I believe should exist
18:27	technomancy	hugod: feel free to merge the ns detection regex patch; consider it reviewed
18:28	technomancy	and thanks for putting that together
18:31	hugod	technomancy: will do in while - I have to go cook for the kids...
18:32	technomancy	have some good noms.
18:32	Apage43	man
18:32	Apage43	i've been secretly using clojure at work
18:33	technomancy	DeusExPikachu: hrm; I think it does, but I'm not sure. You could try just spinning up a few manually to check.
18:33	Apage43	great way to learn =P
18:33	the-kenny	Does this patch does something like (clojure.core/select<TAB> -> (clojure.core/select-keys ? If so, it would be the second-best addition to swank I can think of.
18:34	technomancy	the-kenny: uh... that already works. =)
18:35	the-kenny	technomancy: huh? Not with fuzzy I think. It just expands to (clojure/core
18:35	the-kenny	s/\/\./
18:35	technomancy	works for me using tab in the repl and dabbrev in regular buffers
18:35	technomancy	oh... I don't remember if I have fuzzy enabled
18:36	the-kenny	Maybe it's a problem with fuzzy
18:49	DeusExPikachu	for some reason (loop [] (when foo (recur))) does not increase my cpu usage when I run it and foo is true, is there some optimization going in the background?
18:51	DeusExPikachu	crap nm, I realized I'm running it remotely... hehe
18:59	tomoj	how would you deal with a java library which expects you to use synchronized statements?
19:00	hiredman	synchronizing is locking
19:00	hiredman	,(doc locking)
19:00	clojurebot	"([x & body]); Executes exprs in an implicit do, while holding the monitor of x. Will release the monitor of x in all circumstances."
19:01	tomoj	great
19:01	tomoj	I hadn't ever seen locking before
19:01	technomancy	hiredman: you coming to Zoka tonight?
19:01	tomoj	thanks
19:02	hiredman	technomancy: yessir
19:02	technomancy	cools
19:03	technomancy	I'm staking out the table as we speak.
19:08	hiredman	excellent, have to beat the rush...
19:21	kotrin	trying to make a shoutbox with clojure/compojure and when i submit the form it does not update the shouts listing until i restart the jetty server. anyone know why? not much on google... code: https://gist.github.com/1179a9055eea507867f6
20:40	maxhodak	has anyone here used allegrograph?
21:14	technomancy	hugod: went ahead and applied your ns-with-metadata patch to swank; thanks.
21:15	technomancy	err--never mind
21:15	hugod	technomancy: I think I beat you to it
21:16	technomancy	yup; nice
21:31	hugod	technomancy: looks like you've been busy...
22:57	technomancy	hugod: mostly just cleanup
22:57	technomancy	old branches to prune
22:58	hugod	technomancy: anything pressing that needs doing?
23:01	technomancy	hugod: I really want to get the debug-repl working in swank
23:03	technomancy	but it's currently getting confused about inputstreams
23:03	hugod	technomancy: is it on a branch?
23:04	technomancy	no, I haven't done anything towards that yet.
23:05	hugod	by debug-repl you mean using the new env support?
23:05	technomancy	yeah
23:05	technomancy	http://georgejahad.com/clojure/debug-repl.html
23:06	hugod	I'll take a look...
23:06	technomancy	that would be great!
23:06	technomancy	right now it only works from the inferior-lisp buffer
23:07	hugod	I get very frustrated with the lack of inspection in the stack trace
23:07	technomancy	yeah, that's been another top complaint
23:10	technomancy	integrating the clj-stacktrace prettification library would be a big win too
23:11	hugod	and adding a 'go to the end of the exception cause chain' option
23:14	technomancy	that would be great
23:31	pdk	test
23:37	rickmode	I'm using swank-clojure-project and leiningen. Do path and filenames need to match up with namespaces for (require 'foo) and (require 'foo.bar) to work?
23:39	rickmode	actually I used (use 'foo) just not instead of (require 'foo)... I'm a little unclear about the distinction there as well
23:43	dnolen	rickmode: file name and directory path has to match.
23:44	rickmode	dnolen: is that true in general, or just with use with leiningen?
23:44	dnolen	rickmode: true in general
23:44	rickmode	ic
23:45	rickmode	dnolen: similar to java then. not a bad idea... keeps things easy to find
23:45	dnolen	I think it is actually imposed by Java (always forget). also note that dash becomes underscores.
23:45	rickmode	for some reason I though the namespace marker in a file trumped
23:45	dnolen	com.foo.bar.my-file -> com/foo/bar/my_file.clj
23:45	rickmode	that - to _ is odd, but easy to remember
23:46	dnolen	again Java thing, - not allowed in file names.
23:46	dnolen	if something seems wack in Clojure 99% of the time it's because you can't work around it because it's imposed by Java.
23:47	rickmode	dnoles I guess that's the price we pay vs. CL's package madness.
23:47	dnolen	of course there's _plenty_ of goodness from Java as well.
23:47	dnolen	rickmode: CL package madness always blew my mind.
23:48	dnolen	at one point I understood it and thought, super powerful but too many subtleties
23:48	rickmode	I really wanted to use CL and gave it an honest shot.
23:48	dnolen	I also chanced upon Clojure because of dabbling in CL.
23:49	rickmode	what got me in the end was more that there didn't seem to be enough hackers involved to keep things going. Plus the ASDF thingy doesn't really deal with versions of dependences like leiningen (and maven in java)
23:49	rickmode	at least not as far as I could see
23:50	rickmode	anyway - can you explain the practical difference between the use and require forms? I get that a source file ought to use ns, but in the REPL, which one and why?
23:51	dnolen	rickmode: use bring all definitions in the library into your namespace, require brings those things in but you have to use the whole namespace to refer to something.
23:51	dnolen	use is convenient but name clashes likely. require with an alias is common if you want to avoid typing
23:51	dnolen	(:require [some.cool.lib :as cool])
23:51	rickmode	dnolen... aaaaah... is that it? sheesh.. I"m overthinking it
23:52	dnolen	also
23:52	dnolen	(:use [some.coo.lib :only [foo bar]]) handy
23:54	rickmode	ya... i think i see why i got confused... both allow aliases but "require" aliases packages while "use" aliases symbols
23:54	rickmode	... it hink
23:54	rickmode	... er ... i think
23:54	dnolen	personally I don't see the point of alias + use, but perhaps somebody knows better.
23:54	dnolen	for me its' either, use, use + only, require, require + as
23:57	joshua-choi	How many people here use REPLs to develop Clojure?
23:57	joshua-choi	Like, actually? I've always just run tests, and I've never figured out how to really productively integrate the REPL into my programming.
23:57	Raynes	I'd venture a guess that everybody does. If you use Clojure without an REPL, I'm not sure how you get anything done.
23:58	joshua-choi	Yeah, sometimes I wonder that myself. :P
23:58	Raynes	I don't think I'm capable of coding in a language without one anymore. :o
23:58	joshua-choi	Whatever project I'm working on has a script full of tests that refer to my actual project code. I just run it every time I modify my project.
23:59	joshua-choi	I just don't "get" the REPL right now. Maybe it's because I'm not using an IDE.
23:59	Raynes	Neither am I.
23:59	dnolen	joshua-choi: i only use REPL, but Emacs makes it easier. Enclojure's REPL support seemed passable.
23:59	Raynes	I use Emacs.