2010-03-05
| 00:01 | joshua-choi | And I use a plain text editor: sometimes TextEdit; lately TextWrangler. I've been trying NetBeans-Enclojure lately, but it makes my laptop pretty hot even idly. |
| 00:01 | technomancy | anecdotally: everyone I know who uses clojure uses a repl |
| 00:02 | dnolen | technomancy: heh :) yes I suppose I meant REPL oriented development. compile a little bit. type expr a REPL, correct, repeat. |
| 00:03 | joshua-choi | How do you do it? When you modify a library's code, what do you do in a REPL? Just evaluate test expressions? Doesn't that get tedious without factoring them into a test file? |
| 00:03 | danlarkin | how can you not write clojure interactively? it's like... giving up half the benefit of a lisp? crazy! |
| 00:04 | joshua-choi | I'd love for someone to write a tutorial for the *philosophy* of REPL-driven Clojure development. I'd read it voraciously. |
| 00:04 | Raynes | joshua-choi: You just play with stuff. You can use an REPL as a debugging tool by evaluating pieces of code until you find hte problem. You can write expressions just to see what they'll do, look up documentation, etc. |
| 00:04 | Raynes | the* |
| 00:05 | joshua-choi | Can you evaluate pieces of code other than top-level functions? |
| 00:05 | Raynes | It's not just static test expressions. |
| 00:05 | Raynes | You can evaluate any code. |
| 00:05 | Raynes | Have you ever used an REPL before? |
| 00:05 | joshua-choi | Yeah, but just a standalone one, like clojure.main. |
| 00:06 | joshua-choi | When I tried using it, I'd (require my-library) (do-something top-level-fn), but I'd reload and re-evaluate over and over again. |
| 00:07 | joshua-choi | Whenever I changed my library. Right now I figure that just running a test script in my terminal is less tedious. But there's got to be something that I'm missing. |
| 00:07 | Raynes | It's not just for evaluation test expressions. You can try out anything in an REPL, like I said, just to see if it works. Find out what things to, and know if something is going to work /before/ you write it. |
| 00:07 | Raynes | evaluating* |
| 00:07 | Raynes | do* |
| 00:07 | Raynes | Wow, I can't type today. :\ |
| 00:08 | joshua-choi | You mean, running bits of code and then putting them together? |
| 00:08 | joshua-choi | How do you deal with lexical contexts? |
| 00:08 | joshua-choi | And isn't it annoying to copy and paste code you put in REPLs in your actual library code? |
| 00:08 | Raynes | Not really... |
| 00:08 | joshua-choi | Mmm. Maybe using an actual IDE would make it better. |
| 00:09 | Raynes | You can def code that you want to save for use in later code. Also, the last expression evaluated is saved in *1, and so on until *3. |
| 00:09 | Raynes | Meh, IDEs don't have anything to do with it. I think you might just be missing the point. Maybe this is something you need to do before you'll understand the reason behind it. |
| 00:10 | joshua-choi | Yeah. I feel like I need to figure this out, and that it'd make me a lot more productive. |
| 00:10 | joshua-choi | I'm just using a text editor and a terminal. |
| 00:10 | joshua-choi | Well, here's one thing: how do you deal with reloading libraries? |
| 00:11 | joshua-choi | I'd have to paste "(require [blah.blah :as blah])" every time I changed my library even a little bit. |
| 00:11 | Raynes | Stuff like Emacs and other IDEs make it easier to load code into the REPL with keybindings. |
| 00:11 | joshua-choi | Do you just not modify your actual Clojure file often? |
| 00:11 | joshua-choi | I see. |
| 00:12 | rickmode | joshua-choi: sounds like you need to embrace Emacs + SLIME + Swank |
| 00:12 | joshua-choi | I'm very afraid of Emacs. |
| 00:12 | rickmode | it's a bit of a mind bender at first, but it'll pay off quick |
| 00:13 | rickmode | I'm using Aquamacs which mashes up Emacs with the usual mac os'isms |
| 00:14 | joshua-choi | Perhaps. When I mucked in Emacs for the first time, it wasn't the bindings that were that hard—it was the buffers. I'd do something accidentally, and something really weird and apparently destructive happens to my screen. |
| 00:14 | joshua-choi | Aquamacs? |
| 00:14 | rickmode | but you'll hit some fun wonky stuff getting swank-closure set up properly with the stable version of aquamacs |
| 00:14 | joshua-choi | There's a Cocoa version of Emacs? |
| 00:14 | rickmode | Aquamacs is built on top of Emacs |
| 00:15 | rickmode | there's a couple... aquamacs seems the most user-friendly (to me at least) |
| 01:00 | DeusExPikachu | joshua-choi, I use emacs/slime but I use a repl only for really short one liners. Stuart Halloway's trick of having a temp buffer and just evaluating stuff from there is soo much better then trying to navigate the history of the repl. Also the keybindings are different in the slime-repl rather then a full blown slime / clojure-mode / paredit buffer |
| 01:03 | DeusExPikachu | think of emacs as firefox with a bunch of tabs, but to switch between the tabs, use the key sequence C-x b. Most of emac's behavior is nondestructive, just switch back to the old buffer, nothing happened to your data |
| 03:02 | robink | Is it possible to have a JVM run quickly on a machine without hardware float? |
| 03:06 | TheBusby | or a broader question, does the JVM run quickly on any machine that isn't a desktop PC or server? Based on experiences with Android I wouldn't say it was very quick on an embedded device... |
| 03:07 | hiredman | well, android isn't a jvm |
| 03:07 | Fossi | do you really mean a jvm on android? |
| 03:07 | TheBusby | it's a platform partially built on top of a jvm |
| 03:08 | Fossi | it's got it's own vm, dex |
| 03:08 | Fossi | and it's gc sucks ;D |
| 03:08 | Fossi | especially for clojure ;) |
| 03:09 | TheBusby | sorry, I consider a virtual machine that runs Java to be a JVM |
| 03:12 | hiredman | TheBusby: it doesn't even use java bytecode |
| 03:12 | TheBusby | and a turing machine doesn't use electricity |
| 03:12 | hiredman | we aren't talking turing machines |
| 03:13 | TheBusby | I was hoping you'd see the connection |
| 03:13 | TheBusby | jvm's don't necessarily have to use bytecodes, or be stack based |
| 03:13 | TheBusby | I guess sun may have a different definition for their trademark though |
| 03:13 | hiredman | TheBusby: the jvm spec says different |
| 03:14 | TheBusby | and xerox says that only machines made by them can be called "xerox machines", same with cleanex |
| 03:14 | hiredman | well, it at least says it has to implement bytecodes that operate on a stack |
| 03:15 | hiredman | TheBusby: the jvm is not just a brand, it has a spec, which is what allows others to make jvms |
| 03:15 | TheBusby | I understand your point hiredman, and I know what you're trying to say |
| 03:15 | TheBusby | I just don't agree |
| 03:16 | hiredman | you seem to be confusing java the language with the jvm |
| 03:17 | hiredman | calling the dalvik vm a jvm is like calling an arm cpu a x86 because if you run an x86 binary through the right translation programming it will run on an arm machine |
| 03:17 | TheBusby | no I just think than JVM is the acronym for any java virtual machine, and that one of those is the branded "jvm" we all know and love |
| 03:18 | hiredman | there are others too |
| 03:18 | TheBusby | hence "one of those" |
| 03:18 | hiredman | but the dalvik vm is not one of those |
| 03:18 | hiredman | it's not a matter of branding |
| 03:19 | hiredman | the architecture is completely different from any jvms |
| 03:19 | TheBusby | correct |
| 03:19 | TheBusby | I was simply saying that I consider the term JVM to encompass all java virtual machines, not just the ones that meet the sun VM spec. I realize there can be significant differences |
| 03:20 | hiredman | as I said, that is ridiculous |
| 03:20 | hiredman | like saying an arm cpu is a x86 |
| 03:20 | gregh | a VM that doesn't meet the Sun JVM spec is simply *not* a JVM |
| 03:20 | TheBusby | so you call it a "java virtual machine", but you can't use the acronym? |
| 03:21 | adityo | hey did you guys read this http://bit.ly/d040Aw, and who is codemonkey |
| 03:21 | hiredman | no |
| 03:21 | hiredman | it's not a java virtual machine |
| 03:21 | TheBusby | what would you call it then? |
| 03:22 | hiredman | a dalvik virtual machine |
| 03:22 | TheBusby | I think that's fine too |
| 03:23 | TheBusby | this is all semantics really |
| 03:23 | TheBusby | and I realize my use of JVM is unclear |
| 03:23 | hiredman | is an x86 a jvm? I mean you could translate java bytecode into machine code (this is exactly what the jit does) |
| 03:23 | TheBusby | I understand your point, which is why I mentioned turing machines earlier |
| 03:24 | hiredman | yes |
| 03:24 | hiredman | you obviously don't understand my point |
| 03:24 | TheBusby | it's all semantics and depends on how detailed you want to be |
| 03:24 | gregh | and how easily you need to communicate with other developers |
| 03:24 | gregh | it's not "just semantics" |
| 03:25 | TheBusby | you're right in that it does depend entirely on your audience |
| 03:25 | hiredman | to run Java The Language on a dalvik vm, you have to compile to java bytecode and run a translation tool that turns it into dex bytecode |
| 03:26 | hiredman | to say that the dalvik vm is a jvm is equivalent to calling an arm cpu a x86 |
| 03:27 | TheBusby | I understand what you're saying, I wish you'd believe that |
| 03:27 | hiredman | this is totally isomorphic, I demand that if you are going to call dalvik a jvm that from now on you call arm cpus x86 cpus |
| 03:30 | TheBusby | so to return the core topic, can you get great performance on embedded platforms? |
| 03:30 | hiredman | I doubt it |
| 03:30 | TheBusby | ignoring android for the moment, I haven't seen any good examples in the cellphone market in the past 10 years. I haven't been looking too closely either though |
| 03:31 | hiredman | the delbik vm doesn't have a good gc regardless |
| 03:31 | hiredman | dalvik |
| 03:31 | TheBusby | I know for a lot of embedded applications they require taking advantage of CPU specific calls to handle different things |
| 03:31 | gregh | some arm cpus can run jvm bytecodes directly, they're probably better placed to be faster than an interpreter |
| 03:31 | hiredman | you might be able to find some kind of openjdk build, but you might be stuck with something like jamvm, which also is not a huge performer |
| 03:31 | TheBusby | I can't imagine that's well suited for something like a vm |
| 03:32 | hiredman | jazelle? |
| 03:32 | hiredman | TheBusby: depends |
| 03:32 | hiredman | there is jni "stuff" |
| 03:32 | TheBusby | hiredman: it certainly depends because you see such a huge variation in platform characteristics across the market |
| 03:32 | gregh | yeah, jazelle is what I'm thinking of |
| 03:33 | TheBusby | for example, two different platfroms using the same CPU can have wildly different performance relating to memory access |
| 03:33 | hiredman | the idea of a jvm in hardware is very interesting |
| 03:34 | TheBusby | didn't sun try that 10-15 years back? |
| 03:34 | hiredman | azul does it now |
| 03:34 | hiredman | and jazelle is some kind of hybrid if I recall |
| 03:36 | TheBusby | In regards to universal compatibiltiy, I haven't seen anything comparable to pure old C with all the types/calls abstracted out to #defines |
| 03:37 | TheBusby | I'm waiting for the day that isn't true... :) |
| 04:30 | Licenser_ | greetings parenthethie friends |
| 04:46 | timothypratley | can someone help me out (brain not working): http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/java/javadoc/com/google/appengine/api/datastore/Query.FilterOperator.html |
| 04:46 | timothypratley | How do I reference EQUAL from there? |
| 04:47 | timothypratley | like com.google.appengine.api.datastore.Query.FilterOperator.EQUAL but with $ and or / in there or something. |
| 04:49 | esj | hey Licenser_ |
| 04:51 | timothypratley | ah nm I remember now.... com.google.appengine.api.datastore.Query$FilterOperator/EQUAL |
| 04:52 | esj | really rolls off the fingertips |
| 04:52 | timothypratley | :) |
| 05:09 | Licenser_ | hi esj :) |
| 06:31 | powr-toc | I'm using leiningen, and have just updated and lein installed swank-clojure... However changing the dev-dependency to 1.2.0-SNAPSHOT attempts (and fails) to download it; despite the fact that it's already installed locally... any ideas? |
| 06:36 | robink | I'm not sure I'd want something handled with c-type #defines. |
| 06:40 | powr-toc | doh... I'm mixing up swank-clojure and lein-swank! |
| 07:00 | mattc | Clojure and Java newbie question: how can I call a Java constructor with variadic args from Clojure? |
| 07:00 | mattc | I've tried just passing args, passing them as a vector, a list, a seq constructed from a vector... all give errors e.g. ClassCastException |
| 07:01 | esj | apply ? |
| 07:01 | esj | that's just a guess |
| 07:01 | mattc | apply: "java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found for class ..." |
| 07:02 | rhickey_ | mattc: Java doesn't have real variadics. just language sugar for array creation. To use from Clojure. you need to pass the array. you can make the array with into-array or to-array |
| 07:02 | esj | dunno, not done much java interop |
| 07:02 | mattc | ok I'll give that a go, thanks! |
| 07:02 | the-kenny | Is there something like when-comp? Like comp, but with nil-checking |
| 07:03 | the-kenny | (I know this is a maybe-monad... but I think c.c.monad is too much for this) |
| 07:03 | mattc | you seem to know a bit about clojure ;-) that worked perfectly, thanks Rich. |
| 07:04 | the-kenny | mattc: No... rhickey_ is a total newbie in clojure.... ;) |
| 07:04 | mattc | "(LocalServiceTestHelper. (into-array [(LocalDatastoreServiceTestConfig.)]))" |
| 07:04 | mattc | :-) |
| 09:24 | powr-toc | Does anyone know how to get leiningen to AOT compile your source? It keeps saying "No namespaces listed for compilation in project.clj" |
| 09:25 | bsteuber | lein compile does the job for me |
| 09:25 | spariev | powr-toc: you should add :namespaces - a list of namespaces on which to perform AOT-compilation |
| 09:26 | spariev | see README at http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen |
| 09:26 | bsteuber | spariev: is that specific to the new leiningen version? |
| 09:26 | spariev | yep, I believe it's specific for 1.1.0 |
| 09:27 | bsteuber | ic |
| 09:27 | spariev | s/for/to/ |
| 09:28 | spariev | must improve my English :) |
| 09:32 | powr-toc | spariev: I have that |
| 09:32 | powr-toc | spariev: and it still reports the error |
| 09:34 | powr-toc | Ok, it means a literal list... it doesn't work for a vector... should that really be the case? |
| 09:36 | spariev | not sure, http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/src/leiningen/compile.clj#L16 yere it just checks if it's collection |
| 09:36 | spariev | try :namespaces :all |
| 09:41 | jcromartie | I almost took this Compojure app and said "screw it" and did it in Rails, but then I realized that my data validation rules were way more powerful than they'd ever be in Rails |
| 09:43 | powr-toc | spariev: cheers... it seems to work... but now I have some horrible exceptions... I wish clojure's stacktraces were a little easier to debug |
| 09:44 | spariev | np, glad I could help |
| 09:45 | powr-toc | it's odd... my program seems to run ok... but compiling it causes it to barf |
| 09:45 | powr-toc | (during compilation I mean) |
| 10:06 | tjg | hi there! i'm listed as a clojure contributor but my membership on the clojure-dev forum is pending, though i applied a couple times... is this expected, or am i supposed to do something else like email a moderator? (i don't mean to rush anyone, just curious.) |
| 10:08 | chouser | tjg: how did you apply? |
| 10:09 | rhickey | tjg: you should be all set now |
| 10:09 | tjg | rhickey: Thanks! |
| 10:10 | tjg | chouser: I just pushed the googlegroups button to apply, wrote a little note and.. waited. ;) |
| 10:10 | chouser | rhickey: is that all you need in general? |
| 10:10 | rhickey | tjg: sorry, I had neglected the PO box for a bit, just added a bunch of contributors |
| 10:11 | tjg | chouser: oh yeah, and of course snailmailed in the CA to pleasantville. ;) |
| 10:11 | rhickey | chouser: yeah, CA, and the apply button asks people to state they've submitted a CA. I still get a lot of applications from people who haven't, dunno what they expect |
| 10:12 | tjg | rhickey: yeah, my last PO box was terminated because it overfilled since i neglected to check it. ;) good thing I wasn't using it for anything important... |
| 10:12 | Licenser_ | clojure really really takes advantage of the high number of cores it's incredible |
| 10:13 | rhickey | tjg: it would be nice if they didn't put junk/bulk mail in PO boxes - what's the point? My post office has a stack of circulars taken out of PO boxes - such waste |
| 10:14 | wthidden | ,(apply (first '(+ 10 10)) nil (rest '(+ 10 10))) |
| 10:14 | clojurebot | java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: Symbol |
| 10:14 | wthidden | so what am i missing? |
| 10:15 | zmila | wthidden - paren just after ' |
| 10:15 | zmila | open paren |
| 10:15 | rhickey | wthidden: the symbol '+ is not the function + |
| 10:15 | wthidden | fhrump. |
| 10:16 | wthidden | i was hoping that was not the case. thanks |
| 10:18 | zmila | sorry, i'm wrong about paren |
| 10:20 | wthidden | ,(apply (resolve (first '(+ 10 10))) (rest '(+ 10 10))) |
| 10:20 | clojurebot | 20 |
| 10:20 | wthidden | zmila: np. |
| 10:26 | powr-toc | How do people structure clojure.test unit tests with leiningen? |
| 10:27 | powr-toc | (or more generally clojure.test) ... Presumably the test namespaces and filenames mirror those defined in src/ |
| 10:28 | joshua-choi | It was always kind of weird |
| 10:28 | joshua-choi | On the one hand, clojure.test tests seem to be intended to be integrated in vars' metadata |
| 10:28 | joshua-choi | But a lot of people put tests in separate vars in src/test/ directories |
| 10:29 | joshua-choi | I think Leiningen goes for the latter...I think. |
| 10:29 | joshua-choi | Oh, wait; "lein test [TESTS] # run the tests in the TESTS namespaces, or all tests", according to its readme. |
| 10:30 | powr-toc | yeah... looking at lein's test source code, they pull in the namespace to test with :use |
| 10:31 | joshua-choi | Really? That seems a little fragile, but maybe there's a reason |
| 10:31 | powr-toc | joshua-choi: yeah... it does... also I can't get lein's tests to run at all |
| 10:32 | powr-toc | oh no... It just has... |
| 10:32 | powr-toc | looks like it failed though :-\ |
| 10:38 | spariev | joshua-choi: just wanted to say "thank you" for FnParse |
| 10:38 | joshua-choi | Oh, no problem |
| 10:38 | spariev | joshua-choi: it's awesome |
| 10:38 | joshua-choi | I'm still writing FnParse 3 though, and it looks quite different |
| 10:38 | joshua-choi | But FnParse 2 is fine too |
| 10:39 | joshua-choi | Just warning you though :P |
| 10:42 | spariev | can't believe FnParse could be made even better :) |
| 10:44 | chouser | rhickey: would it be better for deftype to catch when you define `valAt instead of 'valAt (for example), and not generate conflicting definitions? |
| 10:44 | joshua-choi | spariev: If you have questions on it in the future, feel free to message me on GitHub or something |
| 10:44 | rhickey | chouser: I'm working on a non-magic solution to that stuff right now |
| 10:45 | rhickey | something like :mixin [(impl-X ...) (impl-Y ...)] |
| 10:45 | chouser | rhickey: ok |
| 10:45 | chouser | ah! sounds nice |
| 10:45 | spariev | joshua-choi: oh, thanks |
| 10:45 | rhickey | where impl-X and impl-Y generate forms for use in body, that get spliced in |
| 10:46 | rhickey | can be passed names of fields |
| 10:46 | rhickey | or anything else they need |
| 10:46 | rhickey | just trying to figure out how to make the basic cases small, also how to avoid lots of repetition of field list |
| 10:47 | rhickey | since many mixins will need it, also the class name or some recipe for self-construction |
| 10:49 | rhickey | all without replacing one set of magic with another :) |
| 10:49 | chouser | heh, right. |
| 12:18 | wthidden | can an un-interned symbol have meta data? |
| 12:19 | hiredman | symbols are not interned |
| 12:20 | hiredman | ,(identical? 'a 'a) |
| 12:20 | clojurebot | false |
| 12:22 | wthidden | so symbol 'silly can't have any meta data associated with it, correct? |
| 12:22 | hiredman | why not? |
| 12:23 | wthidden | then how? |
| 12:23 | hiredman | how do you normally attach metadate to something? |
| 12:24 | wthidden | not very well it seems at the momement.. would like to do it.. but need to go get lunch first.. be back in 30 min or so. |
| 12:31 | drewr | ,(meta (with-meta 'foo {:really 'bar})) |
| 12:31 | clojurebot | {:really bar} |
| 12:39 | duncanm | is there a variant of str so that (str-varient 1 2 3) => "1 2 3" ? |
| 12:39 | duncanm | cuz (str 1 2 3) => "123" |
| 12:40 | chouser | pr-str |
| 12:40 | duncanm | thanks |
| 12:40 | rsenior | I'm having some difficulty using clojure.contrib.sql to do an insert into a column that does not have a standard integer or character value |
| 12:40 | rsenior | it's a special oracle data type called "SDO_RDF_TRIPLE_S" |
| 12:41 | rsenior | I've been able to do inserts using jdbc, but not clojure.contrib.sql |
| 13:04 | MononcQc | I'm thinking of picking up clojure, coming from Erlang (and some scheme) without any java experience. Is Stuart Halloway's book something I should seek out? |
| 13:06 | dakrone | MononcQc: I found his book very informative and useful |
| 13:06 | dakrone | and I still refer to it occasionally |
| 13:07 | MononcQc | I had heard that clojure changed quite a while since it got out and otherwise it seemed to be very focused for people using Java |
| 13:08 | MononcQc | in fact it's pretty much as if every tutorial out there assumes the programmer has Java experience |
| 13:08 | stuartsierra | that's true |
| 13:08 | stuartsierra | Clojure integrates tightly with Java. |
| 13:09 | stuartsierra | It is not really intended to stand on its own. |
| 13:09 | stuartsierra | At the very least, you'll need to be familiar with standard JDK libraries. |
| 13:09 | dakrone | in my opinion, learning Java from Clojure inter-op is easier than learning Java from Java |
| 13:09 | MononcQc | egh, that's a bt annoying then. I wouldn't really feel like learning Java just to learn clojure |
| 13:09 | nDuff | easier environment for experimentation |
| 13:10 | nDuff | MononcQc, Java-the-library is not nearly as annoying to learn as Java-the-language. |
| 13:10 | dakrone | you're not really "learning" it so much as leveraging a really bit library base |
| 13:10 | dakrone | *big |
| 13:10 | technomancy | MononcQc: it's true to a degree; the example project in Programming Clojure doesn't make a lot of sense without prior experience on Java |
| 13:10 | MononcQc | yeah. I guess knowing the libs will be useful for whenever I do have to learn the language itself |
| 13:10 | technomancy | but I found the rest of the book to be helpful even with zero Java experience |
| 13:10 | hiredman | it's not like java is hard to pick up |
| 13:11 | chouser | I had barely ever used java before I started learning clojure. |
| 13:11 | dakrone | it's possible to avoid Java almost entirely with Clojure, but you'd be missing out on a lot of well-done stdlib sort of functions |
| 13:11 | MononcQc | Oh, I'm just relatively busy writing my own book about stuff, so I try to save time where I can ;) |
| 13:11 | MononcQc | doesn't mean I won't try and go around that |
| 13:11 | dakrone | what are you writing about? |
| 13:11 | MononcQc | http://learnyousomeerlang.com |
| 13:12 | dakrone | cool |
| 13:13 | rickmode | I have a simple question related to this paste: http://paste.lisp.org/display/95972 |
| 13:13 | MononcQc | I was mainly thinking of learning clojure to see the concepts and then probably work with incanter (I plan on buffing up on stats and whatnot) and Erlang's pretty bad at that. |
| 13:13 | MononcQc | But I don't know, I'm kind of thinking R would be fine for the stats too |
| 13:13 | defn | Clojure *can* be done without knowing any java, but in the end you'll need Java. The most important thing is to just be able to read javadocs. |
| 13:13 | rickmode | Seems like I should using a closure around the sever returned by run-server rather than a global |
| 13:13 | defn | If you can do that you'll be able to do most of what you need to do in Clojure. |
| 13:13 | rickmode | thoughs? |
| 13:14 | nDuff | for my purposes, R's library is more complete than what's available for Incanter presently |
| 13:14 | MononcQc | defn, I'm usually alright with reading docs, so it'd not be too bad |
| 13:14 | MononcQc | I like docs. |
| 13:15 | MononcQc | also the GUI programming seems to be pretty interesting with Clojure, rather than Erlang's WX drivers |
| 13:17 | MononcQc | I guess I'll get Stuart's book. Any other interesting guide? |
| 13:19 | dakrone | the video presentations by rhickey on blip.tv would be good |
| 13:19 | rickmode | I agree - the videos on clojure.blip.tv were great - especially the first two |
| 13:20 | technomancy | there's also the peepcode video, which doesn't assume any Java experience |
| 13:20 | technomancy | (disclosure: I wrote it) |
| 13:20 | nDuff | there are a few books in the MEAP program from Manning Publications, but they're unfinished as of yet, so not so good for anyone in a hurry. |
| 13:20 | Raynes | technomancy: No vested interests here. ;) |
| 13:20 | MononcQc | technomancy, that would be interesting to me |
| 13:21 | dakrone | technomancy: peepcode charges for those, right? |
| 13:21 | MononcQc | well I'm alright with people linking to their own stuff given I linked to my own in Erlang :B |
| 13:21 | technomancy | yes, it's $9 for an hour-long video |
| 13:21 | dakrone | technomancy: I'm curious, do you get a pretty good % of the proceeds for that? |
| 13:21 | technomancy | dakrone: yes, peepcode is very generous as a publisher. |
| 13:21 | dakrone | that's good to know |
| 13:22 | technomancy | the video from around the clojure 1.0 days, but the only thing that is obsolete is the segment on building your project. |
| 13:22 | MononcQc | uh, that sounds important |
| 13:22 | technomancy | yeah, but there's a good video on Full Disclojure that does a good job of explaining the up-to-date way to do it. |
| 13:22 | technomancy | and it's free |
| 13:23 | MononcQc | I see. |
| 13:23 | rickmode | $ lein new my-project |
| 13:23 | technomancy | http://vimeo.com/8934942 |
| 13:23 | dakrone | oh yea, the full disclojure series is good: http://vimeo.com/channels/fulldisclojure |
| 13:23 | technomancy | +1 |
| 13:23 | Raynes | +2 |
| 13:24 | MononcQc | ah that looks good |
| 13:25 | powr-toc | I know you guys are probably gonna beat me up for this... but is there a way to reload namespace from a file? i.e. I want to ship a product with some default configs in a namespace foo.config, but if the user includes a config.clj in that defines a namespace called foo.config, I want to allow the redefinition of the specified vars |
| 13:25 | dakrone | and free :) |
| 13:25 | chouser | reloading namespaces is nothing to be ashamed of |
| 13:26 | pdk | we won't tell your parents |
| 13:26 | powr-toc | pdk: lol |
| 13:26 | chouser | I think 'load' is what you want, or perhaps 'load-file' |
| 13:26 | powr-toc | chouser: ok... how do I stop it bitching about the vars being already defined? |
| 13:26 | powr-toc | chouser: I'm using load-file right now |
| 13:26 | chouser | hm... something's not right. |
| 13:27 | chouser | what's the error? |
| 13:28 | powr-toc | chouser: "Name conflict, can't def *foobar* because namespace: foo.main refers to:#'foo.config/*foobar* |
| 13:29 | rickmode | Any takers on my global question? http://vimeo.com/channels/fulldisclojure |
| 13:29 | powr-toc | essentially I want to provide the option of overriding a few configuration constants... And I want to refer to those constants in other namespaces |
| 13:29 | rickmode | sorry http://paste.lisp.org/display/95972 |
| 13:29 | chouser | powr-toc: oh, that's something else... |
| 13:30 | rickmode | I'm wondering if there's a more idiomatic way to capture the result of an expression between two function calls |
| 13:30 | chouser | hm... hmm... try: (binding [*ns* (find-ns 'foo.config)] (load-file ...)) |
| 13:30 | MononcQc | thanks for the help. |
| 13:31 | chouser | rickmode: yeah, don't use 'def' inside a function like that. Best would be to have whoever calls jstart store the value and pass it to jstop |
| 13:32 | chouser | but if you're really sure you'll only ever have one *server* per JVM and don't want to make your user do that, you could have *server* be an atom or ref. |
| 13:32 | chouser | lunch. bbl. |
| 13:32 | rickmode | chouser: the use of *server* should be internal something only jstart and jstop care about |
| 13:33 | rickmode | I'm trying to break out my OO thinking.... |
| 13:34 | powr-toc | chouser: ahh it's ok... I think it works... During refactoring I'd forgot to remove some symbol definitions from my foo.main namespace |
| 13:34 | powr-toc | they were clashing |
| 13:34 | dakrone | rickmode: I annotated it with a suggestion, but I don't know about the correctness of it |
| 13:34 | dakrone | it's kind of a weird way to do it |
| 13:37 | rickmode | dakrone: I was wondering if there was something like (let [foo nl] (defn func1 [] (set! foo "a")) (defn func2 [] (printf foo)))... basically use a closure of some sort to capture something in func1 to be used later by func2. In my case (the compojure case) there is very likely only one *thing* at any one point. |
| 13:37 | powr-toc | chouser: is that kinda namespace/config overriding bad style? |
| 13:38 | powr-toc | chouser: It's pretty much the first thing that my code does... |
| 13:39 | dakrone | rickmode: I was trying to avoid mutating any kind of state in my example |
| 13:43 | rickmode | dakrone: well I dont' really need mutable state. what i need is to use the output of one later in another... *and* hold this expression within a file. The alternative would be to force the caller of jstart to do something like (def *server* (jstart)) then later (jstop *server*). |
| 13:44 | dakrone | I'm afraid I don't understand, you need the server declared in jstart as well as what else? |
| 13:47 | rickmode | really I just want to hold some state internal to one namespace |
| 13:47 | rickmode | private global state ... such that use of jstart and jstop does not expose this internal state |
| 13:48 | rickmode | and it seemed like the use of a global, while possible, might not be the best approach |
| 13:48 | dakrone | so, the example I annotated keeps the server between the jstart and jstop functions, but doesn't expose it as a global |
| 13:49 | rickmode | dakrone; looking (attempting to grok...) |
| 13:55 | dakrone | rickmode: off to lunch, hopefully the annotation is self-explanatory |
| 14:02 | jcromartie | OK so one of the best selling games on Steam is Java... |
| 14:02 | nteon | how can I check out the Java code gen-class is producing? |
| 14:02 | jcromartie | that should be inspiring to anybody wanting to try games in Clojure |
| 14:04 | hiredman | nteon: it doesn't produce java code, it generates bytecode |
| 14:04 | hoeck | nteon: use sth. like http://java.decompiler.free.fr/ on the generated .class files |
| 14:13 | jcromartie | where's somnium when you need him |
| 14:15 | rickmode | dakrone: i see where you solution is going, however evaluating your version of jstop causes the server to start since it defines itself as the evaluation of jstart |
| 14:24 | nteon | hiredman, hoeck: thanks, that of course makes sense. I suppose my problem is that I want to make the equivalent of a static method in clojure which I can call from java |
| 14:28 | hiredman | sure |
| 14:29 | hiredman | you just add :static true to the metadata of the method signature in the gen-class form |
| 14:32 | hoeck | nteon: maybe this helps too: http://berlinbrowndev.blogspot.com/2009/03/java-clojure-interoperability-calling.html |
| 14:50 | konr | I've got a (defn play-mp3 [file]). How can I call it to play an mp3 file inside the jar, and how can I include such mp3 file? |
| 14:51 | jcromartie | konr: just include it in the jar, and use resource loaders to find i |
| 14:51 | jcromartie | it |
| 14:53 | konr | jcromartie: hmm, but how can I include it using lein, for example? |
| 14:53 | tomoj | lein will automatically include everything in resources/ |
| 14:54 | jcromartie | resources |
| 14:54 | jcromartie | ^what tomoj said |
| 14:54 | jcromartie | standard java junkz |
| 14:55 | jcromartie | classes and resources |
| 14:55 | tomoj | then you can use (.getResourceAsStream (clojure.lang.RT/baseLoader) "filename") |
| 14:55 | jcromartie | hm, maybe a (resource name) function could make it into clojure core at some point |
| 14:56 | tomoj | at least contrib |
| 14:56 | konr | thanks, guys! |
| 14:57 | tomoj | a function for serving up resources from a root based on a path and not allowing functions outside the root would be nice too |
| 14:57 | tomoj | er |
| 14:57 | tomoj | not allowing resources outside the root to be returned, I mean |
| 15:03 | joshua-choi | That's weird |
| 15:03 | joshua-choi | According to clojure.org/reader, symbols "can contain alphanumeric characters and *, +, !, -, _, and ?". |
| 15:03 | joshua-choi | But what about -> and ->>? |
| 15:05 | hiredman | ,(let [♥ 1] ♥) |
| 15:05 | clojurebot | 1 |
| 15:05 | chouser | and > < >= <= = == / ? |
| 15:07 | hiredman | ,(let [x 1 x |
| 15:07 | clojurebot | EOF while reading |
| 15:07 | hiredman | er |
| 15:07 | hiredman | ,(let [x 1 x′ (inc x)] x′) |
| 15:07 | clojurebot | 2 |
| 15:12 | joshua-choi | hiredman: Yeah, I know that currently all non-indicator Unicode characters are allowed in symbols |
| 15:13 | joshua-choi | But it seems that Rich Hickey made an informal limitation on symbol characters in clojure.org/reader |
| 15:13 | joshua-choi | But that rule doesn't allow -> and ->>, which is weird |
| 15:14 | joshua-choi | I needed to know if < and > are allowed in symbols or not; since -> and ->> exist, I guess they are, and there's no danger of < and > becoming indicator characters in the future |
| 15:15 | hiredman | joshua-choi: indicator? |
| 15:16 | joshua-choi | Like (, [, ^, #, etc. |
| 15:16 | joshua-choi | Reader macro characters |
| 15:16 | hiredman | reader macro I understand |
| 15:16 | joshua-choi | I suppose http://clojure.org/reader just needs to be updated |
| 15:17 | joshua-choi | To allow < and > in symbols too |
| 15:18 | joshua-choi | I'm planning to use <foo> in my parser's rules |
| 15:19 | joshua-choi | By the way, how do you do that IRC thing? "hiredman |
| 15:19 | joshua-choi | likes to use <foo> for structs". |
| 15:19 | hiredman | /me |
| 15:20 | joshua-choi | Cool |
| 16:38 | jcromartie | only the best languages can claim an IRC bot that speaks that channel's topic language :) |
| 16:39 | jcromartie | In fact that's pretty much my main criteria for choosing a new language to leanr. |
| 16:39 | jcromartie | (joking) |
| 16:49 | the-kenny | jcromartie: Then you should choose clojure. It's the language of the future - When clojurebot became skynet |
| 16:49 | the-kenny | clojurebot: skynet |
| 16:49 | clojurebot | I will become skynet. Mark my words. |
| 16:50 | jcromartie | OH GOD NO |
| 16:50 | jcromartie | I'm kind of surprised there's no equivalent bot in #ruby |
| 17:01 | rads | is there a way to prevent the REPL from printing a line? |
| 17:02 | Raynes | (remove #(= \n) s) ;p |
| 17:02 | rads | I mean if I'm evaluating a form and I don't want it to be printed out in the REPL |
| 17:03 | bsteuber | ,(do 42 nil) |
| 17:03 | clojurebot | nil |
| 17:03 | rads | bsteuber: that works, thanks |
| 17:20 | derefed | does clojure have something similar to python properties? |
| 17:21 | hiredman | what are those? |
| 17:23 | derefed | something like accessor methods |
| 17:23 | derefed | like |
| 17:23 | derefed | I want to be able to retrieve a piece of data from a clojure struct |
| 17:23 | jcromartie | you can use keywords |
| 17:23 | hiredman | structs are just maps |
| 17:24 | jcromartie | ,(:foo {:foo "bar"}) |
| 17:24 | clojurebot | "bar" |
| 17:24 | the-kenny | ,(get {:foo "bar"} :foo) |
| 17:24 | clojurebot | "bar" |
| 17:24 | the-kenny | ,({:foo "bar"} :foo) |
| 17:24 | clojurebot | "bar" |
| 17:24 | derefed | but later on, if I decide that the implementation of getting a particular value from the struct should change, I don't want to have to change all the calling code |
| 17:24 | the-kenny | Three ways to access the data :) |
| 17:24 | jcromartie | ,(-> {:foo {:bar "bat"}} :foo :bar) |
| 17:24 | clojurebot | "bat" |
| 17:24 | derefed | yeah I know |
| 17:24 | derefed | I wasn't finished ;) |
| 17:24 | hiredman | derefed: then write a function |
| 17:24 | derefed | right but |
| 17:24 | hiredman | but what? |
| 17:24 | derefed | not finished |
| 17:25 | derefed | gimme a minute lol |
| 17:25 | derefed | I don't want it to devolve into making an accessor function for everything like in java |
| 17:25 | hiredman | java has methods not functions |
| 17:26 | derefed | you're splitting hairs |
| 17:26 | hiredman | I am not trying to be pedantic there, it is a reminder that clojure is not java |
| 17:26 | derefed | I mean in clojure, writing accessor functions |
| 17:27 | derefed | what I want is the power of accessors without the ceremony of typing each and every one out like in java |
| 17:27 | derefed | does clojure have something like that? |
| 17:27 | dakrone | isn't that what doing (:foo {:foo "bar"}) is? |
| 17:27 | derefed | no |
| 17:28 | derefed | with a bare accessor, yes |
| 17:28 | hiredman | dakrone: he wants an additional layer of indirection in case he desides to change the name of the :foo key |
| 17:28 | derefed | but later on I may decide to add logic to the retrieval |
| 17:28 | hiredman | lisppaste8: url? |
| 17:28 | hiredman | nuts |
| 17:28 | dakrone | I'm not familiar enough with python, how does python do it without writing a method? |
| 17:28 | derefed | not because I want to change the name, but the logic in the retrieval |
| 17:29 | derefed | well |
| 17:29 | hiredman | derefed: logic should be in functions |
| 17:29 | derefed | you still have to write a method |
| 17:29 | dakrone | so what's wrong with (defn get-foo [m] (:foo m)) then? |
| 17:29 | derefed | but callers don't have to change their code to call that method if they were just grabbing the value originally |
| 17:29 | derefed | hiredman: right I'm not arguing with that |
| 17:30 | derefed | for instance |
| 17:30 | hiredman | derefed: then go forth and write functions |
| 17:30 | jcromartie | I can't seem to serve up a PNG image from compojure |
| 17:30 | derefed | in python, say you had a class Foo |
| 17:30 | hiredman | jcromartie: are you using the correct mime-type |
| 17:30 | jcromartie | I set the Content-Type header but the browser interprets it as a document |
| 17:30 | derefed | and an object of Foo, f |
| 17:30 | derefed | and it had a member variable bar |
| 17:30 | jcromartie | it looks like a charset is getting tacked on |
| 17:30 | hiredman | derefed: no classes, no objects |
| 17:30 | hiredman | a struct is a map |
| 17:30 | derefed | hiredman: I'm talking about python |
| 17:30 | jcromartie | :headers {"Content-Type" "image/png"} |
| 17:31 | derefed | hiredman: I'm explaining it to dakrone |
| 17:31 | derefed | in python you could say f.bar = 100 |
| 17:31 | derefed | and it would just set bar |
| 17:31 | derefed | but later on, you could add a property, or accessor method |
| 17:31 | derefed | let's say the new setter just adds 10 to the incoming argument before setting bar |
| 17:32 | derefed | so I write the method to perform the + 10 |
| 17:32 | derefed | but instead of having to change the caller to this: f.setBar(100) |
| 17:32 | derefed | I can leave it like this: f.bar = 100 |
| 17:32 | jcromartie | (defn assoc-bar [x bar] (assoc x :bar (+ 10 x))) |
| 17:33 | konr | Is it particularly bad to slurp a 10-100MB file? Should I use open it as a Stream? |
| 17:33 | jcromartie | because you don't really set, unless it's a ref/var/atom |
| 17:34 | derefed | right but what I'm getting at here is that I can go from directly accessing the value to providing a layer of logic WITHOUT having to change what the caller does |
| 17:34 | jcromartie | hiredman: I'm getting this header in the actual response: Content-Type:image/png; charset=UTF-8 |
| 17:34 | rads | derefed: you just use a function |
| 17:34 | dakrone | so it sounds like syntactic sugar for doing something like (defn get-foo ...), correct? |
| 17:35 | derefed | no |
| 17:35 | hiredman | jcromartie: what makes you think the charset bit is the problem? |
| 17:35 | jcromartie | hiredman: because I get the right data back, but the browser/curl interprets it as utf |
| 17:35 | derefed | joshua-choi: yeah I think that's what it'd have to be... overridable keyword functions |
| 17:35 | dakrone | how is it not? behind the scenes it's doing the same thing calling a function before setting the value |
| 17:36 | rads | derefed: (defn get-foo [m] (:foo m)) / if you want to change the logic, you just change the function |
| 17:37 | rads | you could write a macro to define it for you but you don't end up needing it too much |
| 17:37 | joshua-choi | The problem is, that's not the default |
| 17:37 | rhickey | keyword accessors explicitly say - the data is the interface. If you want something else to be the interface, write functions or use a protocol in the first place. If you always want the flexibility to change things, always use functions |
| 17:37 | derefed | dakrone: it's not that it makes the programmer avoid typing out the (defn), it's that it makes the caller avoid changing how he retrieves values |
| 17:37 | hiredman | if you want a function, write one, maps(structs) are datastructures(containers) meant to be operated on by functions |
| 17:37 | derefed | dakrone: it is syntactic sugar, but not for defn I guess is what I mean |
| 17:38 | dakrone | okay, so in that case, you're going to end up having to create a function for it |
| 17:38 | derefed | rhickey: so there's no sort of shortcut like python does with properties? |
| 17:38 | dakrone | I don't think that (having the suger) fits into the kind of paradigm Clojure promotes for that datatype |
| 17:39 | derefed | probably not |
| 17:39 | derefed | I'm still trying to figure out how to do the things I do in clojureworld ;) |
| 17:39 | bsteuber | defered: I think you're trying to do what everyone else here does - try to map the clojure world to the concepts you know |
| 17:40 | derefed | true |
| 17:40 | bsteuber | but actually there is not always a mapping, and in fact you don't need it, because clojure solves the deeper problem differently |
| 17:40 | derefed | I guess I just don't know any other way |
| 17:40 | jcromartie | so is there a way to NOT set the charset in Compojure? |
| 17:40 | jcromartie | because I think it's kinda messing me up here |
| 17:40 | hiredman | derefed: a few people have told you to write functions |
| 17:41 | hiredman | over and over |
| 17:41 | derefed | right but in my eyes that isn't solving the problem |
| 17:41 | derefed | I'm interested in seeing how clojure does it differently |
| 17:41 | rhickey | for public interfaces, using keywords might not be a good idea. Just because they are there doesn't make them the right thing in all cases. In practice, properties/getters are rarely redefined, but if you do that often you might want a protocol for the outer interface |
| 17:41 | derefed | but until a few minutes ago I felt like you guys didn't understand what I meant so I kept going |
| 17:42 | bsteuber | maybe you should give us some more details about the problem you actually want to solve using accessors |
| 17:42 | bsteuber | I mean, you can give some code snippets or stuff |
| 17:42 | derefed | there is no concrete problem |
| 17:42 | derefed | I'm trying to figure it out before I go in coding |
| 17:43 | hiredman | bsteuber: it doesn't reall matter, the answer is write functions |
| 17:43 | rhickey | one thing about morphing keywords into getter fns is whether or not the entire map interface morphs as well, e.g. contains?, dissoc etc |
| 17:43 | derefed | I just know that I use interfaces a lot and find it convenient to be able to change the logic in the interface |
| 17:43 | hiredman | you want to reach into a datastructure and pull out data, write functions |
| 17:43 | bsteuber | hiredman: yeah, I think you're right |
| 17:44 | bsteuber | but I think for most cases, directly using a keyword is |
| 17:44 | bsteuber | fine |
| 17:44 | dnolen | derefed: also I wrote this, http://github.com/swannodette/accessors |
| 17:45 | rads_ | derefed: (defn foo [m] (:foo m)) is equivalent to an accessor with no logic. if you do this a lot, a macro for defining them would be pretty trivial |
| 17:45 | dnolen | derefed: however nobody seems interested in this functionality |
| 17:45 | dnolen | it's automatically generates setters and getters. |
| 17:45 | dnolen | you can free provide your implementation for a particular property to override the default |
| 17:45 | bsteuber | I'd probably just start with trivial functions and refactor if I happen to change implementation somehow |
| 17:46 | derefed | dnolen: yeah, that's basically what I was looking for |
| 17:46 | bsteuber | I mean, just use the data structures clojure gives you and don't think of replacing them unless needed |
| 17:47 | derefed | bsteuber: right, but I'm just afraid about what will happen when I do need to replace them |
| 17:47 | bsteuber | but will you? |
| 17:47 | rads_ | in practice you don't have to replace them too often |
| 17:47 | derefed | and all the code previously written depends on the old stuff |
| 17:47 | bsteuber | also, there's refactoring |
| 17:48 | derefed | I don't know I've run into it before... I guess it doesn't happen often but it happens |
| 17:48 | bsteuber | yeah, but are you really calling this from a hundret places? |
| 17:48 | derefed | no but still |
| 17:49 | derefed | even if you have to change ten places |
| 17:49 | derefed | doesn't that go against The Right Way? |
| 17:49 | derefed | seems like it goes against everything I've learned about lispy programming |
| 17:50 | rads_ | if you expect the interface to change you should use a function, not the keyword, like rich said |
| 17:50 | derefed | I agree |
| 17:50 | derefed | I was just wondering if there was a shortcut like properties |
| 17:50 | derefed | dnolen's library looks like the answer |
| 17:50 | derefed | I guess now I'm wondering what you guys do |
| 17:50 | hiredman | I write functions |
| 17:51 | dnolen | and my accessors library writes those functions for you, it's really a matter of style |
| 17:51 | bsteuber | and I don't care unless I'm sure I'll want change it |
| 17:51 | hiredman | upon functions, ye until seven orders of functions |
| 17:51 | dakrone | it seems like one of those trying design before you have a problem things |
| 17:51 | bsteuber | and have unit tests that save my ass in that case :) |
| 17:52 | hiredman | dnolen: |
| 17:52 | rads_ | if you don't need the flexibility of dnolen's library, writing a macro to generate getter functions is pretty trivial |
| 17:52 | hiredman | sure |
| 17:52 | derefed | hiredman: so do you have to write out get-foo, get-bar, etc. etc. for all the data structure interfaces? |
| 17:52 | derefed | rads_: I suppose I could do that too |
| 17:53 | hiredman | derefed: depends, I think mostly I use keywords |
| 17:54 | derefed | have you ever run into a situation where you had to change from keyword access to function access? |
| 17:54 | jcromartie | hiredman: looks like it was a deficiency in my understanding of curl, after all :P |
| 17:55 | hiredman | derefed: there have been times when I have written functions instead of using keywords |
| 17:56 | hiredman | I think the key point here is clojure datastructures don't have behaviour outside of their datastructuryness |
| 17:56 | derefed | good point |
| 17:56 | hiredman | your data just flows in and out of them, manipulated by functions |
| 17:57 | hiredman | don't expect the datastructures to do stuff |
| 17:57 | derefed | well I think you guys have given me some good stuff to think about... thanks for all your help |
| 17:58 | rads_ | I do usually write a setter function for changing mutable data |
| 17:58 | rads_ | but since you don't have too much mutable data in clojure you don't need those setter functions often |
| 17:59 | rads_ | and if for example you wanted to add 10 every time you accessed a field, you would just add 10 when you create the data structure |
| 18:01 | dakrone | derefed: good luck with your clojure projects, hope you stick with it :) |
| 18:02 | derefed | thank you -- oops he left |
| 18:06 | bsteuber | btw. is there any way to attach hooks to refs? |
| 18:06 | bsteuber | so that thay do something I specify when they change |
| 18:06 | bsteuber | I mean obviously I can def my own dosync-with-hook-xy |
| 18:06 | bsteuber | but I wondered if there's something builtin |
| 18:08 | hiredman | ,(doc add-watch) |
| 18:08 | clojurebot | "([reference key fn]); Experimental. Adds a watch function to an agent/atom/var/ref reference. The watch fn must be a fn of 4 args: a key, the reference, its old-state, its new-state. Whenever the reference's state might have been changed, any registered watches will have their functions called. The watch fn will be called synchronously, on the agent's thread if an agent, before any pending sends if agent or ref. Note that |
| 18:10 | bsteuber | thx |
| 18:21 | hiredman | last I checked it didn't need building |
| 18:21 | hiredman | you can just jar up the source |
| 18:21 | hiredman | you can also just grap the jar from clojars and forget about it |
| 18:22 | robink | Heh, OK |
| 18:22 | robink | I'd like to try to build the jar. |
| 18:22 | robink | It's good practice (I run Gentoo) |
| 18:23 | hiredman | that's too bad :) |
| 18:23 | hiredman | anyway, I think the guy who wrote it uses netbean's build stuff |
| 18:23 | hiredman | so the best bet is for you to go compile netbeans :) |
| 18:23 | robink | Heh, hm |
| 18:24 | robink | I could try |
| 18:25 | hiredman | robink: I'm telling you, jar -cvf fnparse.jar -C src/ . is all you need |
| 18:25 | hiredman | this could all be over, and you could quit shaving yaks right now |
| 18:26 | robink | must...shave...yaks! |
| 18:39 | hiredman | robink: what benefit do you think you are going to get compiling vs. just jaring up the source? or even just grabing a jar from clojars? |
| 18:45 | robink | hiredman: Compiling a jar would make it faster than just bundling the source. Grabbing a jar from clojars would work just as well but then I'd be stuck the next time I needed to build a Clojure app with ant. |
| 18:46 | hiredman | robink: the speed difference is almost nothing |
| 18:46 | hiredman | and only at load time |
| 18:46 | robink | hiredman: It may end up running on embedded hardware. |
| 18:46 | robink | hiredman: Load time is still a small factor. |
| 18:46 | hiredman | fnparse's ant setup is very different |
| 18:46 | robink | Oh, OK |
| 18:46 | robink | hm |
| 18:47 | hiredman | it is basically a bunch of ant xml generated by netbeans as far as I know |
| 18:47 | hiredman | I don't know of any other clojure project that uses that |
| 18:48 | robink | hiredman: Ah, OK |
| 18:48 | hiredman | almost everything is using lein these days except for some larger older projects |
| 18:48 | rickmode | lein is mean |
| 18:49 | robink | I don't like Maven |
| 18:49 | hiredman | joshua-choi: you can namespace stuff you upload to clojars so it is possible to publish a jar there even if you aren't the maintainer |
| 18:49 | robink | I've been trying to wrestle with it to only use distro-installed dependencies. |
| 18:49 | joshua-choi | Just wondering, what version of FnParse did you build? |
| 18:49 | robink | git trunk |
| 18:50 | hiredman | joshua-choi: it claims to be 2.2.4 |
| 18:50 | joshua-choi | Okay |
| 18:50 | hiredman | I try not to think about it :) |
| 18:51 | hiredman | http://clojars.org/org.clojars.hiredman/fnparse |
| 18:51 | joshua-choi | I see; that's nice |
| 18:51 | joshua-choi | I'm worried though that I'll cause some confusion when I wrap up FnParse 3 |
| 18:52 | joshua-choi | Oh well |
| 18:52 | hiredman | well the version number is right there |
| 18:52 | joshua-choi | Oh, right, it is :P |
| 18:52 | hiredman | and you could push a cannonical fnparse to clojars |
| 18:52 | joshua-choi | How does that work? Canonical libraries on Clojars |
| 18:53 | hiredman | they aren't namespaced |
| 18:53 | hiredman | http://clojars.org/lein-gae |
| 18:54 | robink | There we go |
| 18:54 | joshua-choi | Oh, I see |
| 18:54 | robink | Compiled |
| 18:55 | robink | Installed |
| 18:56 | hiredman | actually, fnparse is leiniszed these days, so "lein jar" will build and jar it |
| 18:56 | robink | Ah, OK |
| 18:59 | nteon | heh, leiniszed |
| 19:01 | robink | I met the guy who wrote leiningen |
| 19:01 | hiredman | I was there :P |
| 19:02 | robink | hiredman: Oh! Hi! |
| 19:03 | hiredman | I was the one in green |
| 19:03 | hiredman | on the otherside of the guy with the n900 |
| 19:04 | robink | hiredman: Right. Well immediately opposite the guy with the N900 was Phil, right? |
| 19:04 | robink | Were you to Phil's right? |
| 19:04 | technomancy | robink: hi. =) |
| 19:04 | robink | ! |
| 19:04 | technomancy | <= phil |
| 19:04 | robink | Hi :-) |
| 19:04 | robink | Wow, this is cool |
| 19:04 | hiredman | no no |
| 19:04 | robink | technomancy: Yeah, I know. |
| 19:04 | robink | hiredman: OK, I think I remember you now. |
| 19:05 | hiredman | not on the otherside of the table |
| 19:05 | robink | Oh, gotcha |
| 19:05 | robink | Yeah, OK |
| 19:05 | technomancy | ascii-art diagram? |
| 19:05 | hiredman | robink | n900 | hiredman |
| 19:05 | robink | hehe |
| 19:05 | robink | I get it |
| 19:06 | robink | and then opposite going the same direction (N, not R) was Brian, technomancy, guy-whose-name-i-can't-remember |
| 19:06 | robink | and then the guy who showed up later. |
| 19:07 | hiredman | the shaver |
| 19:07 | robink | No, he was to Brian's...wait, oops |
| 19:08 | robink | OK, towards the back of the coffee shop is N, right? |
| 19:09 | robink | Oops, that's S |
| 19:09 | hiredman | oh, right, the other guy who came later |
| 19:09 | robink | Yeah. |
| 19:10 | robink | Awesome, lein errored on me. |
| 19:10 | robink | Maven just sucks in a dependency if it thinks you don't have it. |
| 19:11 | robink | lein is doing exactly what I want it to do. Not sure why the clojure POM file is missing. |
| 19:12 | robink | Oh, huh, it's a Maven thing |
| 19:12 | robink | Still, leiningen is behaving more like what I want. |
| 19:13 | robink | Which is to never (ever) pull in a dep |
| 19:13 | technomancy | deps only get pulled in if you explicitly ask for them or if the lib/ dir is empty IIRC |
| 19:14 | technomancy | so you don't have to always remind it to stay offline like you do with mvn |
| 19:14 | robink | Oh, good |
| 19:14 | robink | Not sure where I get a Clojure POM file. |
| 19:14 | technomancy | lein pom |
| 19:14 | robink | Hah |
| 19:14 | technomancy | what do you need it for? |
| 19:14 | robink | Awesome |
| 19:15 | robink | When I do 'lein jar' on fnparse, it says it needs the Clojure POM file. |
| 19:15 | robink | Clojure was installed by MacPorts, not Maven. |
| 19:15 | robink | Same POM error |
| 19:17 | robink | Could be an issue with the way fnparse's project.clj is written. |
| 19:18 | robink | Ah, fixed |
| 19:18 | robink | Ack! |
| 19:18 | robink | It's trying to install Clojure! |
| 19:18 | hiredman | sure |
| 19:18 | hiredman | if it depends on it, it will grab it |
| 19:18 | technomancy | clojure dependencies aren't system-wide like rubygems or apt-get |
| 19:19 | robink | I thought it would check the root fs and classpath for something ...oh |
| 19:19 | robink | That's...bothersome |
| 19:19 | robink | It's going to make writing an ebuild tricky. |
| 19:20 | technomancy | yeah, debian builds of JVM tools are notorious for that reason. |
| 19:20 | robink | Of course I can just use ant with fnparse, but Compojure is all Maven-based, and Maven definitely wants to pull something in if it thinks it's missing. |
| 19:22 | robink | The Java-hosted languages are new to Portage, generally, so there's not a whole lot of infrastructure to support them. |
| 19:23 | robink | I imagine eventually it might be possible to have a 'baselayout' or -common ebuild for these guys so that you could hint Maven to where things truly were. |
| 19:23 | robink | Maybe folded into the main ebuilds themselves, I'm not sure. |
| 19:23 | hiredman | uh, unless it changed very recently compojure is not maven based |
| 19:24 | robink | hiredman: No, it's not, but Maven doesn't think it exists. |
| 19:24 | robink | hiredman: There has to be a way to tell Maven "Compojure is here!" |
| 19:24 | robink | hiredman: Without installing another concurrent copy. |
| 19:25 | hiredman | robink: that has nothing to do with maven |
| 19:25 | robink | hiredman: Well, no, but it has to do with the build process that ultimately involves Maven. |
| 19:25 | hiredman | I think you are conflating lein and maven because lein uses some of mavens machinery |
| 19:26 | robink | hiredman: No, I see that Lein is better. |
| 19:26 | hiredman | but they are not the same thing |
| 19:26 | technomancy | some of the leiningen output makes it looks like it's coming from maven. that should be cleaned up. |
| 19:27 | robink | technomancy: OK |
| 19:28 | hugod | technomancy: I have a prev/next problem implementation for clojure test mode, and a working run test at point |
| 19:29 | technomancy | hugod: nice! I will pull tonight. |
| 19:29 | hugod | ok, I'll fork and push to a branch |
| 19:30 | technomancy | if you would rather just mail a patch that's fine too |
| 19:30 | hugod | ok, can do |
| 19:47 | nteon | can anyone suggest a more lispy form for this function? http://fpaste.org/9Y7i/ |
| 19:50 | nteon | ah! -> |
| 19:50 | hiredman | ,(assoc {} :a 1 :b 2) |
| 19:50 | clojurebot | {:b 2, :a 1} |
| 19:50 | _ato | nteon: assoc can take many arguments |
| 19:51 | nteon | _ato, yes but in my silly example i need to refer to the value of :time-step in d to generate e. |
| 19:56 | _ato | I'd probably just do: http://gist.github.com/323376 |
| 19:59 | _ato | oh wait, are you trying to set the save-step to the previous time-step? |
| 19:59 | _ato | (in which case your code has a bug) |
| 19:59 | nteon | _ato: no, not the the previous |
| 20:01 | nteon | _ato: I think I like what you outlined in that gist, thanks |
| 20:52 | defn | _ato! |
| 20:52 | defn | You're back! |
| 20:53 | defn | I have a question-- I'm pulling tweets from the "firehose" and I'm wondering if it's possible to conditionally return items during the execution of a function |
| 20:54 | defn | in english: im consuming some massive sequence, is it possible to return items which match a condition, and still continue consuming the sequence? how do you do that? |
| 20:55 | technomancy | if you return a lazy sequence, the caller of your function can read the first few elements of the seq while later elements are still being processed |
| 20:55 | technomancy | is that what you mean? |
| 20:56 | defn | maybe... im trying to understand what you're saying there |
| 20:57 | defn | okay, yeah that sounds kind of like what im thinking |
| 20:57 | defn | I was just sort of imagining a console where this sequence is being consumed, and whenver it finds something that matches X, it returns that match, and continues to consume |
| 20:57 | defn | what you're saying makes sense |
| 20:58 | technomancy | if "consuming" has side-effects then you probably don't want to mix it with laziness though |
| 20:58 | defn | yes i was just considering that :) |
| 20:58 | technomancy | what about sending matching elements to an agent instead of returning them? |
| 20:58 | defn | that's a great idea |
| 20:58 | defn | thanks technomancy |
| 20:58 | technomancy | np |
| 21:03 | nathanmarz | anyone know if "fine-grained locals clearing" is available in 1.1? (http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/9b4e268b85c20cd6) |
| 21:05 | technomancy | nathanmarz: pretty sure it's not. |
| 21:07 | nathanmarz | is the plan to get that into 1.2? |
| 21:07 | technomancy | it's in the 1.2 snapshot, yeah |
| 21:07 | nathanmarz | cool |
| 21:07 | nathanmarz | gratzi |
| 21:22 | konr | Is there a function that prints a number like 1234567.89 as 1,234,567.89? |
| 21:23 | hiredman | ,(doc pprint) |
| 21:23 | clojurebot | "([object] [object writer]); Pretty print object to the optional output writer. If the writer is not provided, print the object to the currently bound value of *out*." |
| 21:25 | konr | hmm, cl-format does the trick too... should have checked before: (cl-format nil "~:d" 1234567.89) |
| 21:53 | tomoj | suppose you inherit a bunch of clojure code that's written with variable names in some foreign language |
| 21:54 | defn | suppose the internet has translators available |
| 21:55 | tomoj | can you automatically correctly rename them? not doing automatic machine translation, but just prompting you for a translation once per unique name needing to be translated? |
| 21:55 | defn | i highly doubt it |
| 21:55 | defn | consider rand vs random |
| 21:55 | tomoj | how is that a problem |
| 21:55 | defn | rand-var vs random-variable |
| 21:55 | tomoj | I still don't understand how that is a problem :( |
| 21:56 | defn | rand isnt a word in either language? |
| 21:56 | tomoj | yeah, so what |
| 21:56 | defn | so how do you automatically rename that |
| 21:56 | tomoj | if "splurgenfrach" means "random" and they just write "splurg", that's ok |
| 21:56 | hiredman | I don't think you understood what he said |
| 21:56 | tomoj | I don't think so either |
| 21:56 | hiredman | he wants a refactoring tool |
| 21:57 | tomoj | I mean, now I can't really think of any big problems |
| 21:57 | tomoj | but I feel like there would be tricky issues |
| 21:57 | defn | 80/20 |
| 21:58 | hiredman | it woudl be tempting to read in the code as a datastructure and manipulate symbols |
| 21:58 | hiredman | but you would lose formating when printing it back out |
| 21:58 | defn | im going to be the naysayer and say that it's completely impossible to write a good tool for that |
| 21:58 | tomoj | hmm |
| 21:58 | tomoj | I think losing formatting might be OK |
| 21:58 | defn | the edge cases will continue to erupt |
| 21:58 | hiredman | defn: I think you could write a tool that did a decent job |
| 21:59 | tomoj | as long as you can walk the data structure and the raw code in parallel |
| 21:59 | defn | maybe... |
| 21:59 | tomoj | need a new reader to do that? |
| 21:59 | hiredman | :D |
| 21:59 | hiredman | I happen to have a read written in clojure |
| 21:59 | hiredman | reader |
| 21:59 | defn | i just have a hard time imagining a tool which could accurately refactor within a single lnaguage (english) let alone 10 of them |
| 21:59 | defn | it would be a mess |
| 22:00 | tomoj | the only thing you'd need to match with the raw code is the positions of the symbols |
| 22:00 | tomoj | so you could stick that in the metadata maybe? |
| 22:00 | DuneMan | Fairly basic question (starting out with clojure today). I have a lein project.clj defined that includes clojure-1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT and clojure-contrib-1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT. |
| 22:00 | DuneMan | when I do lein "deps" the correct libraries are copied from my maven dir (~/.m2) into my project's lib. |
| 22:00 | hiredman | defn: you are getting to hung up on the "different language" thing |
| 22:00 | DuneMan | However, when I bring up a repl and do (System/getProperty "java.class.path") both the clojure and clojure contrib jars show up in my classpath. However, doing a (require clojure.contrib.str-utils2) fails (or any other namespace that's supposed to be in clojure contrib). |
| 22:01 | tomoj | defn: it's really just variable renaming |
| 22:01 | hiredman | you want to rename all instances of symbol X in scope Y to W |
| 22:01 | tomoj | but doing it over and over again once per unique symbol |
| 22:01 | tomoj | across a list of source files |
| 22:01 | DuneMan | (bringing up a repl using lein repl, to make sure the class path is correct) |
| 22:01 | tomoj | without changing the program |
| 22:01 | hiredman | I no stuartsierra really wants a namespace renaming tool |
| 22:01 | DuneMan | this also fails in VimClojure+Nailgun |
| 22:01 | tomoj | DuneMan: lein repl uses the clojure that leiningen has |
| 22:02 | tomoj | ~/.swank-clojure I think |
| 22:02 | clojurebot | That is the one thing Clojure can not do. |
| 22:02 | hiredman | DuneMan: what version of contrib? |
| 22:02 | DuneMan | 1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT |
| 22:02 | hiredman | in master a lot of stuff got renamed |
| 22:02 | DuneMan | same as the version of clojure |
| 22:02 | DuneMan | I've also tried it with 1.1.0, and 1.2.0 |
| 22:02 | tomoj | do you even need to maniplate symbols? |
| 22:02 | DuneMan | (1.2.0 seems to make Vimclojure + nailgun not work at all) |
| 22:02 | tomoj | or can you just have something which scans the raw code looking for symbols |
| 22:02 | DuneMan | (\sr just stops doing anything) |
| 22:03 | DuneMan | oh, I'm also on MacOS. |
| 22:03 | tomoj | hmm, no, if you change a name, you must change it in every other file that references the symbol |
| 22:03 | tomoj | "The repl task will use the version of Clojure and Contrib that Leiningen uses, not the one specified by your project." |
| 22:04 | tomoj | I dunno if that's your problem, but |
| 22:04 | DuneMan | hm... that is interesting. |
| 22:04 | DuneMan | Where was that in the docs? |
| 22:04 | tomoj | on http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen |
| 22:04 | defn | DuneMan: change your includes to clojure "1.1.0" |
| 22:04 | tomoj | "known issues" |
| 22:04 | DuneMan | (one would think that the nailgun task would use the correct version) |
| 22:04 | defn | and clojure-contrib "1.1.0" |
| 22:04 | tomoj | one would indeed |
| 22:05 | tomoj | lein-swank does |
| 22:05 | DuneMan | defn: That's what I had it as before, and had the same problem. I'll try again. |
| 22:05 | defn | those are a better bet than what you're using |
| 22:05 | tomoj | I think there are pretty difficult problems in that area of lein |
| 22:05 | defn | AFAIK no one has been using those snapshots for awhile |
| 22:05 | tomoj | subclassloaders oslt |
| 22:06 | tomoj | yet lein new still generates a project.clj with them, correct? |
| 22:06 | defn | depends on what version of lein |
| 22:06 | tomoj | oh, I see, no |
| 22:06 | tomoj | "1.1.0" |
| 22:06 | tomoj | nice |
| 22:07 | DuneMan | yes, it generates them with 1.1.0 |
| 22:07 | DuneMan | and yeah, same problem. Start nailgun, open vim, and get a huge slew of errors about not being able to find seq-utils |
| 22:07 | tomoj | DuneMan: how does it fail? pastie the error |
| 22:07 | tomoj | and, which jar for contrib do you see in the classpath? |
| 22:08 | tomoj | (the one in your project's lib/?) |
| 22:08 | DuneMan | lib/clojure-contrib-1.1.0.jar from my project's lib |
| 22:08 | DuneMan | #<CompilerException java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: seq-utils (parsers.clj:9)> |
| 22:08 | DuneMan | when doing \ef |
| 22:09 | DuneMan | Even though seq-utils is in the 1.1.x branch docs on github... |
| 22:09 | tomoj | how many contrib jars do you see in your lib dir |
| 22:09 | DuneMan | just that one. I blasted lib/ |
| 22:09 | tomoj | well shit |
| 22:10 | DuneMan | it just makes no sense. |
| 22:10 | tomoj | oh |
| 22:10 | tomoj | hehe |
| 22:10 | tomoj | paste the exact code that's failing |
| 22:10 | DuneMan | I've been complaining about clojure all day because of this ;-) (stupid jvm) |
| 22:10 | tomoj | (require clojure.contrib.str-utils) ? |
| 22:10 | defn | does nailgun f--- with the classpath at all? |
| 22:10 | DuneMan | (ns beansprout.parsers |
| 22:10 | DuneMan | (:import java.util.Date |
| 22:10 | DuneMan | java.text.DateFormat) |
| 22:10 | DuneMan | (:require [clojure.contrib.str-utils2 :as string] |
| 22:10 | DuneMan | [clojure.contrib.seq-utils])) |
| 22:11 | slyphon | DuneMan: uh, pastebin? |
| 22:11 | DuneMan | defn: If it did one would think that doing (System/getProperty ...) within the nailgun repl would be getting the right classpath from the urrent jvm instance |
| 22:11 | tomoj | well, the contrib jar is on the classpath when he checks from the repl, yes? |
| 22:11 | tomoj | yeah, exactly |
| 22:11 | tomoj | DuneMan: it blows up on seq-utils? |
| 22:11 | DuneMan | slyphon: woop, sorry. |
| 22:12 | DuneMan | tomoj: yes. But if I'm in the repl and do a simple (require clojure.contrib.seq-utils) it also fails, also with (require clojure.contrib.str-utils2) |
| 22:12 | tomoj | those would naturally fail |
| 22:12 | DuneMan | why naturally? |
| 22:13 | tomoj | in (require clojure.contrib.seq-utils), the "clojure.contrib.seq-utils" is evaluated as a var |
| 22:13 | DuneMan | aha |
| 22:13 | tomoj | not sure I'm using the right words there |
| 22:13 | tomoj | but, you need to quote when using require et al manually rather than through the ns macro |
| 22:13 | tomoj | so (require 'clojure.contrib.seq-utils) |
| 22:15 | tomoj | however |
| 22:16 | tomoj | putting that code in src/beansprout/parsers.clj, it works fine for me |
| 22:16 | tomoj | and I can see the functions that were pulled in |
| 22:16 | DuneMan | huh. |
| 22:17 | tomoj | can you pastebin/gist/whatever 1) the error you get when you try to load the code with the ns macro 2) the error you get when you (require 'clojure.contrib.seq-utils) ? |
| 22:17 | DuneMan | maybe my jvm install is screwed somehow |
| 22:17 | tomoj | are they the same? |
| 22:17 | DuneMan | When I do the latter I don't get an error, it returns nil (which I think means success?) |
| 22:18 | DuneMan | but then it says it can't resolve the symbol, e.g. flatten |
| 22:19 | DuneMan | ah... |
| 22:19 | tomoj | brandonw: hey |
| 22:19 | tomoj | maybe you can help DuneMan :) |
| 22:19 | DuneMan | I have to fully qualify that. |
| 22:19 | tomoj | DuneMan: yes |
| 22:19 | tomoj | and (require '[clojure.contrib.str-utils2 :as string]) |
| 22:19 | hiredman | require doesn't make alias in the current namespace |
| 22:20 | DuneMan | yeah, already did that with :as string... |
| 22:20 | tomoj | then you should be able to (string/whatever) |
| 22:20 | tomoj | use use if you want to just pull in all the functions |
| 22:20 | tomoj | (but I don't like doing this) |
| 22:20 | tomoj | except like (use '[foo.bar :only (baz bim bang)]) |
| 22:20 | tomoj | which will pull in baz, bim, and bang from foo.bar |
| 22:21 | DuneMan | Aha, so it was all because I wasn't FULLY qualifying that. |
| 22:21 | tomoj | lein-nailgun and/or vimclojure must be screwing up |
| 22:21 | tomoj | but, you still get the error trying to load that file, right? |
| 22:21 | DuneMan | ... no. |
| 22:22 | DuneMan | *looks back at his old errors* |
| 22:22 | tomoj | oh, the error was only that you were referring to the functions incorrectly after loading the file? |
| 22:22 | DuneMan | No, the error I was getting was about not being able to find the seq-utils class file |
| 22:23 | DuneMan | But now... it appears to work magically? |
| 22:23 | tomoj | hah |
| 22:23 | tomoj | well, grats |
| 22:23 | DuneMan | Thanks :-) |
| 22:23 | tomoj | you might feel the need to meditate deeply on the docs for ns, use, require, etc |
| 22:24 | tomoj | they confused me when I was new to clojure |
| 22:24 | DuneMan | I've read them a few times now but I'm still very confused by them. |
| 22:25 | DuneMan | The language that is used to talk about these things are unfamiliar to me. |
| 22:25 | dnolen | DuneMan do you know Python? |
| 22:25 | DuneMan | yes. |
| 22:25 | dnolen | use -> import * |
| 22:26 | dnolen | require -> import foo.bar |
| 22:27 | DuneMan | Ah, okay. And :import ~> from foo import bar (but only for java classes) |
| 22:27 | rickmode | duneman i've hit a similar thing with these... the language is correct but unfamiliar. A laymans writeup would definitely help. Something giving the "why" along with canonical / idiomatic usage to go along with the theory |
| 22:28 | DuneMan | Might be good to write up a blog post about it or somesuch, after wrestling with it for a day |
| 22:28 | DuneMan | took me forever to get lein working |
| 22:28 | tomoj | I plan to do that but with a focus on emacs |
| 22:29 | rickmode | I would like to see a unification of the java things with the clojure things so there isn't as much of a difference |
| 22:29 | rickmode | things like import and the extra dot notation are a bit odd and smell like a hack. I could be wrong though. |
| 22:30 | tomoj | I kind of like the extra dot |
| 22:30 | tomoj | because it shows clearly when you are using a function and when you are using some java method |
| 22:30 | rickmode | as far as the differences between ns, in-ns, use, requrire and refer, I am getting a feel for them after a few days |
| 22:31 | DuneMan | I think a lot of this is just normal stumbling through a new set of tools |
| 22:31 | tomoj | java methods will rarely (but maybe increasingly more often with 1.2.0 features?) behave in ways that make me want to think of them as functions |
| 22:31 | DuneMan | but it's particularly frustrating because its new language foo + the awful mess that working with the jvm always is. |
| 22:32 | tomoj | yeah :/ |
| 22:32 | tomoj | I think the jvm is overall a good thing though once you stumble through it |
| 22:32 | tomoj | for clojure, I mean |
| 22:32 | DuneMan | Oh, it's a wonderful product, hotspot rocks, etc. Using it is... a pain, though. |
| 22:32 | tomoj | yeah |
| 22:33 | DuneMan | anyway, I think you helped me stumble into something that works... |
| 22:33 | tomoj | I think without an easy-to-interop-with host, clojure would suffer |
| 22:33 | rickmode | Part of the attraction of a lisp dialect and clojure specifically is the lack of unneeded syntax. Something like this: (.getCanonicalPath (File. "public" "main.css")) just feels odd in a lisp. How can I anticipate where the dots go? |
| 22:34 | tomoj | by understanding the interop syntax, I guess :( |
| 22:34 | rickmode | but it's a small thing... I am *totally* digging this language |
| 22:34 | tomoj | I think it's worth it, though, because I don't want jvm interop to look like clojure code |
| 22:34 | tomoj | it should look different because it will likely not behave in clojure-ish ways |
| 22:34 | rickmode | tomaj: ah.. you are totally right... if it's different , emphasis the difference |
| 22:34 | tomoj | your clojure wrapper can still look clojure-ish |
| 22:35 | tomoj | but when you are doing things that could be Evil, I think a different syntax is good |
| 22:35 | tomoj | but the ability to do Evil is a great boon to clojure :) |
| 22:36 | rickmode | well so long as it doesn't reintroduce mutable collections... ;) |
| 22:37 | tomoj | that's the thing |
| 22:37 | tomoj | all of the available options with good library support are Evil, I think |
| 22:38 | tomoj | so unless you want to write everything from scratch, you're going to have to do interop with stuff that uses mutable collections or whatever |
| 22:38 | tomoj | and as long as you're doing that, better to have a slighly different syntax for that stuff |
| 22:39 | hiredman | ,(macroexpand '(.foo bar)) |
| 22:39 | clojurebot | (. bar foo) |
| 22:39 | hiredman | ,(macroexpand '(foo. bar)) |
| 22:39 | clojurebot | (new foo bar) |
| 22:44 | DuneMan | btw, vimclojure = ghetto |
| 22:45 | DuneMan | vim is not meant to host a repl... and it works like it |
| 22:45 | DuneMan | heh |
| 22:47 | rickmode | thanks, hiredman... i honestly hadn't quote got the classname. syntax |
| 22:48 | rickmode | er... quite got... |
| 22:51 | tomoj | DuneMan: slime... :P |
| 22:51 | DuneMan | Yeah... I don't know emacs... will probably need to learn it if I ever actually want to code in this. |
| 22:51 | tomoj | I think a lot of people use vim with success |
| 22:52 | tomoj | (but personally I love slime/clojure-mode/lein-swank) |
| 22:52 | rsh | is there a good way to include free variables in macroexpansions w/o getting "can't use qualified name as a parameter" exception? |
| 22:53 | rsh | an intentional free variable, so a gensym will not work |
| 22:53 | tomoj | can you show what you're trying to do? |
| 22:53 | DuneMan | tomoj: Using the repl is painful... you have a vim buffer so doing movement expressions moves you within the buffer instead of doing readliney stuff |
| 22:54 | tomoj | ah, slime takes care of the readliney stuff very nicely in my opinion |
| 22:54 | DuneMan | yeah, emacs is good for this... it was designed for this |
| 22:54 | rsh | tomoj: is there a better way to show you a code snippit than pasting it directly in here? |
| 22:55 | tomoj | rsh: yes, any pasting service will do |
| 22:55 | tomoj | gist, pastebin, whatever |
| 22:55 | tomoj | I think the bot can help but I don't know how to ask it |
| 22:55 | tomoj | clojurebot: paste? |
| 22:55 | clojurebot | lisppaste8, url |
| 22:56 | tomoj | rsh: anyway, I think I might understand your problem |
| 22:56 | tomoj | consider this macro |
| 22:56 | rsh | tomoj: http://pastebin.com/5M7Cz1Q5 |
| 22:56 | tomoj | (defmacro with-foo [& body] `(let [~'foo 3] ~@body)) |
| 22:56 | tomoj | (with-foo foo) macroexpands to (clojure.core/let [foo 3] foo) |
| 22:57 | rsh | yeah that is the same concept |
| 22:57 | tomoj | you need to syntax-quote the body of the macro |
| 22:57 | tomoj | continuation framework? |
| 22:57 | rsh | yep! |
| 22:57 | rsh | thanks for your help |
| 22:57 | rickmode | I used http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure earlier .. but you need to mention the URL here |
| 22:57 | tomoj | sounds interesting |
| 22:58 | tomoj | tell us if you share it |
| 22:58 | dnolen | there's also clj-cont, http://github.com/swannodette/clj-cont, my port of the CL continuation library :) |
| 22:58 | dnolen | never had a reason to use it yet tho :P |
| 22:59 | rsh | I saw that actually. Will probably take a look at it later after I play around with it some on my own to learn a little |
| 23:00 | dnolen | rsh: feedback appreciated. continuations are fun. |
| 23:00 | hiredman | lisppaste8 needs to be voiced |
| 23:02 | rsh | can someone explain to me or point me to some further reading why clojure has this issue with macroexpanding free variables into ns qualified names but common lisp macros do not have problems doing this? |
| 23:02 | DuneMan | okay, so... when I do (string/partition "a b c" #"\s")) I get: "java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number" |
| 23:03 | DuneMan | .... anyone have a clue why that would occur? partition takes 2 arguments, a string and a pattern. |
| 23:03 | DuneMan | according to all the web pages and (doc ...) [which, I'll note has a broken example] |
| 23:04 | dnolen | rsh: Clojure rules simply prevent you from shooting yourself in the foot. You can however accomplish what you want. |
| 23:05 | rsh | I see |
| 23:07 | tomoj | rsh: is ~' really so bad? |
| 23:08 | tomoj | I quite like it, it makes unhygienic macros a bit harder to write |
| 23:08 | tomoj | and the auto-gensyming makes up for it by making hygenienic macros easier to write |
| 23:08 | rsh | what would be the consequences of actually having a namespace qualified function parameter (if it were allowed)? |
| 23:08 | tomoj | s/hygen/hyg/ |
| 23:09 | dnolen | rsh: it wouldn't make any sense. |
| 23:09 | tomoj | I don't even know what that means :( |
| 23:10 | dnolen | a namespaced qualifier would usually refer to some definition in a namespace, using that as a fn parameter name doesn't make sense. |
| 23:10 | tomoj | DuneMan: hmm |
| 23:10 | tomoj | the example in the docs works for me |
| 23:10 | dnolen | what you want for =defn is (defn ~f [~'*cont* ~@parms] ~@body) |
| 23:10 | tomoj | (clojure.contrib.str-utils2/partition "abc123def" #"[a-z]+") returns exactly what the docs say |
| 23:10 | DuneMan | heh. The stars are not aligning says my coworker bob. |
| 23:10 | dnolen | rsh: I actually did PG cont stuff in Clojure as well. |
| 23:11 | tomoj | DuneMan: just wait a bit longer! |
| 23:11 | tomoj | the stars will align after a while, I predict |
| 23:11 | rsh | dnolen: how did it work out? |
| 23:12 | DuneMan | haha. if I cut-n-paste the line that you just pasted, I get a classnotfound exception |
| 23:12 | DuneMan | wonderful |
| 23:12 | tomoj | DuneMan: yes |
| 23:12 | tomoj | paste the whole file? |
| 23:12 | tomoj | at least the ns declaration and the call to partition |
| 23:12 | dnolen | rsh: small tweaks here and there. had to use ~'. And you need to use an atom since you need *saved* to mutate. |
| 23:12 | tomoj | by paste I mean on some pastie webapp, of course |
| 23:13 | DuneMan | ah, I know what was wrong. I did :as string when I import str-utils2 |
| 23:13 | tomoj | that's fine |
| 23:13 | DuneMan | and that... somehow messed up something in the namespace. if I require it as str-utils2 |
| 23:14 | tomoj | you should then be able to string/partition |
| 23:14 | DuneMan | then the partition works right |
| 23:14 | tomoj | I get an IllegalArgument exception when I try to call clojure.core/partition with those arguments |
| 23:15 | DuneMan | yeah, as would be expected. |
| 23:15 | DuneMan | since core/partition is different. |
| 23:15 | tomoj | the problem might be that str-utils2 also uses this name, and that you were accidentally calling clojure.core/partition? |
| 23:15 | tomoj | or not? |
| 23:15 | DuneMan | I was actually calling string/partition |
| 23:15 | DuneMan | explicitly. |
| 23:15 | tomoj | and you're sure string was clojure.contrib.str-utils2 then? |
| 23:15 | tomoj | that should work fine |
| 23:16 | tomoj | I just did it myself with the ns macro you pasted earlier |
| 23:16 | DuneMan | Yeah, it should work fine. But it didn't. And after I killed my repl and did the require again and used the fully qualified name it works |
| 23:16 | DuneMan | and now my original source works. |
| 23:16 | DuneMan | *shrugs* |
| 23:16 | tomoj | I blame vimclojure and/or lein-nailgun |
| 23:16 | DuneMan | That was actually just happening in a normal command line repl |
| 23:16 | tomoj | these kinds of problems don't happen to me |
| 23:16 | DuneMan | :-) |
| 23:16 | tomoj | well, shit |
| 23:17 | DuneMan | that I've been cutting and pasting into |
| 23:17 | tomoj | it may just be easier to stay sane about the repl's state when using slime? |
| 23:17 | DuneMan | yeah, who knows. thanks again |
| 23:17 | tomoj | not to imply that you screwed up, but maybe it's a possibility? I can't think of any way that could happen |
| 23:19 | DuneMan | No, I'm certain I'm screwing up somehow, I just can't figure out *how* |
| 23:19 | DuneMan | The toolset, when not using slime, at least, is... confusing. |
| 23:21 | DuneMan | Is there a better way to test this stuff in the repl than using load-file and then requiring the namespace? |
| 23:21 | DuneMan | I just did (eval (read-line (slurp "filename"))) so that it doesn't pop me out of the namespace |
| 23:22 | DuneMan | suppose you could load-file and then (ns ...) to put myslf in that namespace? |
| 23:28 | tomoj | DuneMan: yes |
| 23:28 | tomoj | load-file, then use in-ns |
| 23:28 | tomoj | (doc in-ns) |
| 23:28 | clojurebot | "([name]); Sets *ns* to the namespace named by the symbol, creating it if needed." |
| 23:29 | tomoj | then the repl will be in that namespace |
| 23:32 | tomoj | DuneMan: slime looks like this http://tomojack.com/stuff/sshots/slime.png |
| 23:32 | tomoj | you can see that the repl prompt changes when I switch to working on namespace/examples.clj |
| 23:33 | DuneMan | yeah, suppose I could learn emacs :-) |
| 23:33 | tomoj | you can C-c C-k when editing a clj file to compile and load that file into the repl |
| 23:33 | DuneMan | Go play with a symbolics machine... |
| 23:33 | tomoj | then there is a slime command which changes the repl's current namespace |
| 23:34 | tomoj | I have C-c n look at the current source file's path, figure out the clojure namespace from that, and then switch to it in the repl |
| 23:34 | tomoj | also C-c C-n looks at the source file's path and inserts a skeleton ns declaration with the appropriate namespace |
| 23:34 | tomoj | (for lein-style projects only) |
| 23:34 | tomoj | but that is ok because everything I work on is a lein project |
| 23:35 | tomoj | plus, it works with 1.2.0 |
| 23:35 | tomoj | and if you learn emacs lisp (heh) the sky's the limit |
| 23:35 | DuneMan | Yeah, we'll see if use clojure long enough to make it worthwhile. |
