#clojure – 2010-03-03

2010-03-03

00:00	brandonw	how can it use two different version of clojure at once?
00:00	brandonw	swank-clojure itself doesn't specify a specific version of clojure as a dependency
00:00	brandonw	unless it is somehow agnostic to which version you use...?
00:02	brandonw	well, i will have to attack this tomorrow
00:02	brandonw	i am up way too late (again) :)
00:02	brandonw	clojure has the habit of making me do that... heh
03:21	vy	Isn't it possible to make "intern" guess the ns from the ns of the caller?
03:55	LauJensen	Morning guys
03:55	LauJensen	All set for Open Source Days this friday ? :)
04:00	esj	Morning folks
04:03	adityo	afternoon folks
04:04	zmila	beforenoon :)
04:05	lpetit	morning :)
04:11	spariev	morning )
04:42	ordnungswidrig	mornig
05:13	pjackson
05:29	bsteuber	I wonder how github knows about the language of a project - counting known language names in the docs?
05:32	gregh	probably something simpler, like file extensions
05:32	bsteuber	sounds reasonable :) silly me
05:44	LauJensen	bsteuber: When you push into a project, your IP is logged - Github then scours through Google Groups, IRC logs, Fora etc trying to match your IP, once it finds your posts it does some textual analysis on the finds, trying to assert which language you have spoken the most about, in the days and hours leading up to your commit. Its quite simple really
05:45	esj	its only simple because the wrote it in clojure
05:46	esj	otherwise, whew.... nightmare.
05:46	LauJensen	True .. oh yea, and then theres the whole file extension thing :)
05:47	eevar2___	afaik there's actually some parsing going on. or maybe that's ohloh
05:51	dsop	at least it doesnt detect javascript inside java as in gwt, soeople ary only stabbed once for using java and not twice for java and javascript :)
05:53	vy	I define the fooproj ns in fooproj.clj file. How can I make (ns fooproj ...) to load/require fooproj/util.clj, fooproj/main.clj also?
05:53	Chousuke	don't define single-segment namespaces
05:54	Chousuke	but (ns foo.bar (:use foo.bar.util ...))
05:54	vy	Chousuke: So what should I do instead of using single-segment namespaces?
05:55	Chousuke	use a multi-segment namespace :)
05:55	vy	I couldn't understand. Can you given an example please?
05:55	Chousuke	instead of (ns foo) use (ns foo.bar). It's that simple
05:55	Chousuke	single-segment namespaces end up in the default package which causes problems in some cases
05:56	vy	Chousuke: I'm already using something like that. tr.edu.bilkent.cs.vyazici. Are all those multi-segments enough? :D
05:56	Chousuke	ah, that will do :)
05:57	vy	I just want my tr/edu/bilkent/cs/vyazici.clj to load the files I specified under tr/edu/bilkent/cs/vyazici/ directory.
05:57	Chousuke	you can use :load in the ns form
05:58	Chousuke	the files should contain an appropriate (in-ns 'tr.edu.bilkent.cs.vyazici) call though. Just to make sure all the defs end up in the correct namespace
06:00	vy	Chousuke: That's already done. But this time I have to append a "vyazici/" prefix to every file I specify in the :use clause. How can I avoid that?
06:01	Chousuke	hm, what do you mean?
06:02	vy	Here is my ns clause in tr/edu/bilkent/cs/vyazici.clj file: (ns 'tr.edu.bilkent.cs.vyazici ... (:use "vyazici/util" "vyazici/graph" ...)) See those "vyazici/" prefixes?
06:03	Chousuke	shouldn't that be :load?
06:03	Chousuke	but, I don't think there's any way around it.
06:03	Chousuke	it's just a bit of extra typing
06:03	vy	Oops... Yup, I meant :load, not :use.
06:05	Chousuke	you could of course call load manually like (apply load (map #(str "vyazici/" %) '[util graph ...])))
06:05	Chousuke	but I don't think that's much better.
06:10	vy	Chousuke: I wish stu's ticket about ns macro would get approved.
06:12	Chousuke	It'll probably get reworked at some point.
06:36	bsteuber	laujensen: just read the github/google interpretation you gave an hour ago - yeah, that sounds very reasonable to me :)
06:53	zmila	is there an efficient way to map and return only not-null results? other then use mapcat and wrap result into list (mapcat (fn [item] (if (,,,) (list newitem) nil) coll)
06:55	esj	could try for with a :when clause ?
06:58	zmila	thx esj! it works :)
06:58	esj	np
07:12	Maddas	(filter identity ...) should work too
07:13	esj	even nicer !
07:14	Maddas	:)
07:14	AWizzArd	If you only want to remove nils from your coll (and keep 'false') then (remove nil? coll) is even better.
07:14	AWizzArd	,(filter identity [1 2 nil 3 4 false 5 true 6])
07:14	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 true 6)
07:14	AWizzArd	,(remove nil? [1 2 nil 3 4 false 5 true 6])
07:14	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 false 5 true 6)
07:14	zmila	i want map and remove nils
07:15	Maddas	Oh, sorry, I misread that.
07:15	AWizzArd	Then I suggest you to (remove nil? (map ...)). This documents your code best.
07:16	zmila	(remove (map )) does two iteration over the coll, don't?
07:20	bsteuber	zmila: I don't think so - lazy sequences kick ass =)
07:23	zmila	bsteuber - yes, you're right! (remove nil? (map ,,,)) works even quicker than (for :when ) in my case
07:24	esj	so, while we're on this, I use a (for :while) to processing to stop when a nil is hit. Is there another way ?
07:25	esj	an until ?
07:34	bsteuber	,(doc take-while)
07:34	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of successive items from coll while (pred item) returns true. pred must be free of side-effects."
07:36	bsteuber	(take-while (complement nil?) collection) seems a little verbose, though
07:38	esj	merci !
07:45	zmila	could smbd show example of using (when-let )?
07:47	esj	check out cgrand's kickass solution on this thread: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/49bd20eb4bcba20c/269d55e544d3a55a?lnk=gst&q=kata#269d55e544d3a55a
07:47	esj	he uses a when-let
08:00	AWizzArd	esj: do you know about :when?
08:00	AWizzArd	In a for.
08:01	esj	your asking question altered my state...
08:01	esj	i guess I don't, what's the catch ?
08:02	AWizzArd	I just wanted to mention it. It can add a filtering effect to for.
08:02	esj	hmmm..... like my suggestion at 11:55 ?
08:06	AWizzArd	Ah, 12:55
08:07	esj	aaah, timezones
08:07	bsteuber	haha
09:20	powr-toc	What's the idiomatic way to evaluate a symbol?? Should I do (eval '+) or is there something more specific I can use?
09:22	lpetit	powr-toc: wanna give more context ?
09:23	chouser	you can get similar results in that particular case with (deref (resolve '+)), but yeah it'd be good to know what you're trying to do.
09:23	chouser	or perhaps why
09:24	powr-toc	lpetit: sure... I have a function, that currently takes a value as an argument... I want to modify it to take the symbol, so I can look up some metadata on it and then resolve the symbols value
09:24	powr-toc	I think derefing is what I'm wanting
09:25	rhickey	symbols don't have values
09:25	powr-toc	rhickey: yeah, I mean resolving the symbols var and derefing that :-)
09:25	chouser	resolve find the value of a Var named by the symbol. If you mean for the symbol to name a local, resolve won't work.
09:26	chouser	actually, resolve just finds the Var. deref gets its value.
09:26	powr-toc	chouser: yes, I think that's what I want to do
09:26	rhickey	powr-toc: but you could instead pass a var instead of a symbol
09:26	powr-toc	rhickey: good point!
09:26	rhickey	since the metadata you want is probably on the var anyway
09:27	powr-toc	rhickey: it is
09:28	powr-toc	rhickey: thanks for that :-)
09:29	praptak	Is there a cat that is more lazy than lazy-cat? Something that yields a lazy sequence that is a concatenation of a lazy sequence of sequences?
09:31	rhickey	praptak: (apply concat lazy-sequence-of-sequences)
09:31	praptak	Thanks!
09:31	AWizzArd	Experts of combinatorics, here is a nice riddle for you: For which FOO will we get (foo [[1] [2 3] [4] [5 6]]) ==> ([1 2 4 5] [1 2 4 6] [1 3 4 5] [1 3 4 6])?
09:32	AWizzArd	foo must be a function. The FOR macro can do it:
09:32	AWizzArd	,(for [x1 [1], x2 [2 3], x3 [4], x4 [5 6]] [x1 x2 x3 x4])
09:32	clojurebot	([1 2 4 5] [1 2 4 6] [1 3 4 5] [1 3 4 6])
09:33	AWizzArd	Foo should not be a function that constructs and evals a for loop :)
09:35	eliantor	,(doc extends?)
09:35	clojurebot	Huh?
09:36	eliantor	,(doc defprotocol)
09:36	clojurebot	Pardon?
09:36	lpetit	,(source for)
09:37	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
09:37	lpetit	~source for
09:38	eliantor_	I posted clojure group but my message doesn't seens to appear
09:39	chouser	AWizzArd: clojure.contrib.combinatorics/cartesian-product
09:39	eliantor_	oh well i reloaded the page once more and it's posted now
09:39	eliantor_	does clojurebot understands protocols and datatypes functions?
09:40	AWizzArd	chouser: 100 points
09:41	chouser	AWizzArd: cool! Can I redeem those points for plane tickets to Clojure conferences?
09:41	chouser	,`defprotocol
09:41	clojurebot	sandbox/defprotocol
09:41	chouser	eliantor_: looks like it doesn't.
09:42	chouser	,(clojure-version)
09:42	clojurebot	"1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
09:42	eliantor_	oh thanks
09:42	chouser	huh. pre-1.1 even
09:42	eliantor_	i just downloaded the nightly build
09:43	eliantor_	and trying to use extends? extenders and satisfies, but they dont seem to work
09:43	eliantor_	they always return nil
09:44	AWizzArd	chouser: we can talk about this if you plan to visit Europe as a speaker on a Clojure Con :)
09:46	chouser	eliantor_: hm... I think you're running into a sort of impedence mismatch between protocols and deftype. If you use extend instead of deftype, I think you'll see what you're expecting.
09:46	chouser	(extend-class String P (foo [x] (str "This is a string: " x))
09:46	chouser	(extends? P String) ;=> true
09:47	chouser	dunno if the behavior of (satisfies? P T) is going to change or not
09:48	chouser	oh
09:48	chouser	(satisfies? P (T)) ;=> true
09:49	chouser	eliantor_: 'satisfies?' wants an instance of the the object to check against a protocol.
09:49	eliantor_	it's the only one i didn't tried
09:50	eliantor_	i don't remember exactly the docs but i think they are not clear on this
09:56	S11001001	clojure 1.1: (defn- helper [] ...) (defmacro the-thing [] `(helper)), then, in another module, (module/the-thing) => "IllegalStateException: var: #'module/helper is not public". Any way around this other than publishing helper?
09:57	chouser	`(#'helper) might do it
10:03	S11001001	thanks, unfortunately, nth not supported on this type: Symbol
10:03	S11001001	oh, I was macroexpanding the wrong thing, it worked. Thanks again chouser
10:04	chouser	np
10:12	eliantor_	if i define a protocol (defprotocol P (foo [x] )) (type P) i get clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap, so protocols don't have a type of themselves
10:13	eliantor_	what if i want to know something like (protocol? P) ?
10:15	chouser	a protocol is currently just a map. You really have an object that at runtime might be a protocol or might be something else?
10:16	eliantor_	no, i was just trying to understand :)
10:16	chouser	you can look at a protocol and glean useful info from it. You tried just P at the repl?
10:16	eliantor_	yes
10:16	eliantor_	it gives me a map
10:17	chouser	right.
10:17	eliantor_	i'm not on my machine so i'cant try it again
10:17	chouser	the one you've defined by whatever combinations of defprotocol and extend you've invoked
10:18	rhickey_	protocols are currently opaque other than what is provided by the api, everything else representation-wise could change
10:19	chouser	heh, perhaps "should be treated as" rather than "are"? Because the thing is a map the nicely prints all kinds of stuff about itself.
10:43	zmila	am I missing: what multi-line comments in clojure? besides (quote ...)
10:44	lpetit	rhickey_: hello. did you work on this issue that was talked about in the ml ? http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/a8b4a1a00fe8d0f2/9f0ba0234487b00b?lnk=gst&q=engelberg#9f0ba0234487b00b
10:44	a_strange_guy	zmila: #_
10:44	rhickey_	lpetit: yes, I have some ideas involving macros in deftype/reify
10:45	a_strange_guy	,(+ 1 2 #_(ignored until) 3)
10:45	clojurebot	6
10:45	lpetit	rhickey_: cool. was just a checkpoint, thanks :)=
10:45	lpetit	:)
10:45	rhickey_	hopefully I'll get to that within the next week or so
10:46	rhickey_	I'm definitely not satisfied with how it is now
10:48	zmila	a_strange_guy, thanks, but #_ requires that the next form be valid clojure syntax? what if i want paste some unstructered text and hide it from reader?
10:49	chouser	zmila: there's no true multi-line comment in clojure. Just put ; at the front of each line for text that's can't be read by the reader
10:49	chouser	zmila: many editors provide a convenient way to do this
10:49	stuartsierra	Or write #_ "comments in a string"
10:50	chouser	which is ok until you want quotes in you comment. :-/
10:50	zmila	chouser, yes. but eclipse plugin still not :)
10:51	a_strange_guy	i actually noticed that almost anything is valid for the reader
10:52	a_strange_guy	just use #_ and parens-matching
10:54	lpetit	chouser: what is "a convenient way" ? if hitting Enter and quitting a comment line, automatically add a ; at the right indentation level in the newline ?
10:58	chouser	lpetit: I use vim. with just a few keystrokes I can add ; to the front of a block of text, with a few less I can tell it I'm going enter a bunch of text for which I'd like it to insert ; at the front of each line.
10:58	lpetit	ah, ok, this one. I thought "while typing"
10:59	lpetit	chouser: the second part is interesting. I'm not sure there's an equivalent in eclipse
10:59	lpetit	chouser: how do you "end" the sequence ?
10:59	chouser	lpetit: I'm not quite sure what you're asking. If I'm on a line that starts with a ; and in insert mode press <enter>, the next line gets a ; automatically
11:00	chouser	if I don't want that ; there, I just backspace over it and go back to writing code
11:01	lpetit	chouser: ok
11:29	Licenser	is there something good for a REST web framework in clojure?
11:29	chouser	for the server side I like ring
11:30	Licenser	hmm ring, the doesn't ring a bell - I'll ask Mr. G. oogle
11:32	chouser	http://github.com/mmcgrana/ring
11:34	Licenser	ah found it :) thanks chouser
11:50	danlei	chouser: btw, I think you were right yesterday, "let block" is actually used. (but the hyperspec example you posted was something different)
11:51	chouser	I don't think I posted a hyperspec link. Perhaps Chousuke did.
11:51	danlei	ah, ok
11:53	chouser	,(case Integer/MAX_VALUE Integer/MAX_VALUE :good)
11:53	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: case in this context
11:54	chouser	oh. anyway, apparently static final fields don't work as case test-constants
12:04	brandonw	hmm perfect timing
12:05	brandonw	technomancy: i had some questions on how swank-clojure works
12:05	brandonw	is swank-clojure agnostic of the clojure version you specify as a dep in your project?
12:05	technomancy	brandonw: it should be
12:06	brandonw	how do you manage that?
12:06	technomancy	brandonw: it doesn't use any 1.1+ features and doesn't have AOT'd classes
12:06	technomancy	so it's compatible across versions even up to a year old
12:06	brandonw	ah, that is what i was thinking
12:07	brandonw	i finally got around to finishing a lein-nailgun plugin that mimics your lein-swank plugin, but for vimclojure
12:08	brandonw	but it has some dependency issues on specific clojure versions. i'll have to check out the vimclojure source to see how hard it would be to take out any 1.1+ stuff and see if there are any AOT'd classes
12:09	technomancy	AOT is the biggest problem. supporting 1.0 is not as big of a deal.
12:11	brandonw	yeah, looking through the clojure source of vimclojure real quick i don't see anything 1.1+
12:11	brandonw	do you not have any deps on contrib at all either?
12:14	technomancy	I think they are optional.
12:15	brandonw	yeah, especially for something like supporting quick pprint usage, i would think
12:17	S11001001	technomancy: I was reading jar.clj, and was wondering why you defined a method on copy-to-jar for nil instead of saying (write-jar project jar-file (remove nil? filespecs)).
12:19	technomancy	S11001001: that does sound strange. I don't remember why it's done that way.
12:19	technomancy	patches welcome. =)
12:20	brandonw	technomancy: when you say that you don't use AOT, is that because it hasn't always existed in clojure (pre-1.0)? or is it because there have been changes in how AOT works since 1.0?
12:23	chouser	case doesn't macro-expand its test-cases does it?
12:24	chouser	oh it can't because parens means "or"
12:46	technomancy	brandonw: using AOT locks you to a specific version of clojure. libraries AOT'd with 1.1 will not work with other versions.
12:48	brandonw	okay
12:48	brandonw	i looked a little into the vimclojure group and meikel has made changes in the current dev version that tries to reduce dependency on a specific clojure version
12:48	brandonw	so it is in the pipeline :)
13:03	hiredman	clojurebot: ping?
13:03	clojurebot	PONG!
13:06	gregh	,'PONG!
13:06	clojurebot	PONG!
13:10	esj	sssh cb, people are trying to work here.
14:00	Licenser	Hy I've a project which I'd love to release, so I am not sure about which license to choose I thought about what I want but I really have a problem to decide which license is best fitting for me. Main problem might be that I have a very hard time to read the juristic english and understand it. What I want is: 1) The code shall stay open source. 2) Everyone can modify & use etc the code 3) It may be used commercially (as long as code stays OS)
14:00	Licenser	when it is used the user should note it somewhere (as in acknowledge the work done) 5) I don't want to hold any warrenty.
14:04	stuartsierra	Licenser: GPL will do that.
14:04	hiredman	:(
14:04	hiredman	only if you are willing to go to court over it
14:04	gregh	well that depends on what exactly you mean by (3)
14:04	Licenser	stuartsierra: commercial use? I don't like the GPL
14:05	chouser	but you can't mix GPL code with clojure code.
14:05	Licenser	that validates 2) :P
14:06	chouser	Licenser: I think for a clojure project, you should go with EPL unless you can point out some way in which it is deficient.
14:06	chouser	and from my rather weak understanding of the EPL and your requirements, it'll do.
14:07	Licenser	chouser: my problem is I read the EPL but didn't understood a work
14:07	Licenser	*word
14:07	chouser	yeah. :-/
14:07	bilts	what's the issue with mixing GPL code and Clojure code?
14:07	programble	Licenser: what do you license? :P
14:07	Licenser	programble: A) a engine for game combat B) a JS framwork to visualize the fights
14:08	Licenser	A) is written in clojure
14:08	programble	Licenser: cool
14:08	Licenser	I know it's not really a topic for the channel but people here are more helpfull then in most other channels :P
14:08	programble	lol yeah
14:08	programble	most people in freenode help channels are assholes
14:09	programble	very rude and tell you you are stupid type
14:09	chouser	GPL only may be mixed with something that amounts to GPL, and EPL is not exactly that. So GPL effectively excludes EPL, and Clojure is EPL.
14:09	Licenser	I am the stupid type!
14:09	programble	lol
14:09	technomancy	chouser: depends on your definition of derived of course.
14:09	programble	but people in here will liekly not tell you that
14:10	Licenser	I don't think that counts, I can compile GPL code with VisualStudio
14:10	programble	license your code under teh WTFPL
14:11	hiredman	Licenser: but vs is not under a viral license
14:11	Licenser	What I don't want: Someone use my code without telling anyone and claiming my work. Someone using my code and making it better without recontributing to the world. I won't mind someone using it in a game for example.
14:11	Licenser	is clojure?
14:11	hiredman	no
14:11	Licenser	see :P
14:11	fanatico	a recent writeup on what "derivative" means: http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/11/why-the-gpl-does-not-apply-to-premium-wordpress-themes/
14:12	fanatico	"The Galoob court rejected Nintendo’s argument. In order to be considered a derivative work, the alleged derivative must “physically incorporate a portion of a copyrighted work… [or] supplant demand for a component of that work.”"
14:12	stuartsierra	Licenser: Enforcement of GPL/EPL tyep licenses is very weak; you're better off just asking nicely.
14:12	Apage43	quickly learning not to just toss parenthesis all willy-nilly in when code doesn't compile due to a mismatch.. it makes it compile but severely changes the behavior.
14:12	fanatico	I don't think using clojure in a gpl'd project fits that definition.
14:12	programble	is the WTFPL GPL compatible?
14:13	S11001001	yes
14:14	Licenser	I know stuartsierra but what I certenly done't want is that I violate my own license in the future
14:14	programble	WTFPL is good for small things that don't matter much, i go with GPL otherwise
14:14	Licenser	I don't like the GPL :(
14:14	Chousuke	I think the MIT licence is better than the WTFPL
14:14	Licenser	I agree less aggressive
14:15	programble	...
14:15	programble	wut
14:15	programble	how is anything less aggressive than WTFPL
14:15	Chousuke	And it incorporates a warranty disclaimer, and more legally sound language :)
14:15	programble	lol
14:15	Licenser	So generally there is no good license to use?
14:16	chouser	Again, for maximum Clojure compatibility, I'd recommend going with EPL unless you know it doesn't fit somehow.
14:16	stuartsierra	Licenser: You can't violate your own license. You created it, you own the copyright, you can do whatever you want.
14:16	Chousuke	wouldn't EPL work for you?
14:16	Licenser	Chousuke: I am not sure what the EPL exaclty does :P
14:16	technomancy	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_Public_License
14:17	Chousuke	it's kinda like the GPL, but doesn't propagate itself to works linked against EPL code
14:18	programble	GPL is kinda annoying that way
14:18	Chousuke	ie. someone who modifies your code has to distribute their changes, but any code they develop and distribute alongside an unchanged binary of your code, can be licenced in whatever fashion they like.
14:18	Licenser	So if someone wants to use my code and make money with it, it's fine. But would they be allowed to do so 'secretly'?
14:18	Licenser	Chousuke: that is EPL?
14:18	Chousuke	I'm not sure if the EPL requires attribution.
14:19	Chousuke	I'm not a lawyer, so don't count on me for legal advice, but that's my impression :)
14:19	danlarkin	use use 3-clause BSD :)
14:19	danlarkin	s/use/just/
14:19	SynrG	is it necessary to make code compatible with the license of the interpreter that runs it?
14:19	programble	just use public domain :P
14:19	Chousuke	the public domain is problematic :P
14:20	SynrG	for most of my projects i favour GPL. i wouldn't deliberately choose a license that's not compatible
14:20	danlarkin	programble: it's questionable whether it's possible to put something in public domain in the US :)
14:20	programble	well why not?
14:20	programble	public domain makes it so no one has to worry about it
14:20	chouser	SynrG: probably not. But Clojure is not an interpreter -- clojure programs must be "linked" (by the JVM) to clojure.jar. I believe this violates vanilla GPL
14:20	programble	no legal anything
14:21	Chousuke	it's still a legal thing
14:21	Chousuke	loosely, it means the absence of copyright holders
14:21	programble	a legal thing with nothing really about it
14:21	Chousuke	in some countries, you can't place things in the public domain.
14:21	danlei	how about putting clojure in ones own jar? is that already a modification?
14:21	Chousuke	you simply can't give away your rights.
14:21	Chousuke	danlei: probably not.
14:21	danlei	ok
14:21	SynrG	chouser: so i would need to GPL with a linkage exception
14:22	chouser	SynrG: that might do it, yes.
14:22	Chousuke	danlei: and still, it would only require you to distribute the clojure sources :)
14:22	programble	Chousuke: what about things like the song "Happy Birthday"
14:22	danlei	Chousuke: I see, thank you!
14:22	programble	that are in public domain because the copyright holders are unkown
14:22	danlarkin	programble: ha! funny you use that as an example
14:22	SynrG	chouser: still just learning. i think i'd want to have a talk with debian-legal first, as most of my code is targetted specifically at debian
14:22	Chousuke	programble: things end up in the public domain. the question is whether you can intentionally place things there
14:22	danlarkin	happy birthday is _not_ in the public domain
14:23	Licenser	I'll try to find some explenation of the EPL
14:23	SynrG	they are bound to have some particular views on it
14:23	Chousuke	programble: in the US that's probably possible, but elsewhere it might not be.
14:23	fanatico	programble: Time Warner owns "Happy Birthday".
14:23	chouser	http://www.snopes.com/music/songs/birthday.asp
14:23	fanatico	seriously.
14:23	fanatico	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Birthday_to_You#Copyright_status
14:24	programble	damn
14:24	programble	w/e
14:24	programble	you know what i mean
14:24	programble	very old songs and things
14:25	programble	old stuff
14:25	programble	so wait
14:25	programble	...
14:25	programble	is it legal to sing happy birthday?
14:25	fanatico	did you pay your public performance royalties?
14:26	programble	>_> no
14:26	programble	although
14:26	programble	i wouldnt call it public
14:26	programble	so... i think im fine
14:27	fanatico	Any reason deftype doesn't support vararg-style constructors?
14:28	programble	to annoy you
14:29	chouser	fanatico: if your deftype mentions IPersistentMap, you can assoc onto instances after creation.
14:29	chouser	(deftype Foo [a b] clojure.lang.IPersistentMap) (assoc (Foo 1 2) :x 3 :y 4) ;=> #:Foo{:a 1, :b 2, :y 4, :x 3}
14:30	Licenser	hmm after reding some FAQ about the EPL Ikind of like it
14:31	programble	Ikind? is that an interface?
14:33	technomancy	my biggest complaint with the EPL is the word "Eclipse"
14:33	programble	lol
14:33	chouser	(extend-class Licenser Ikind (like [x] true))
14:33	Licenser	^^
14:36	Licenser	hmm do I have to put a header in the code for EPL?
14:38	technomancy	I certainly hope not.
14:38	Licenser	okay fine fine :)
14:39	dakrone	is the EPL compatible with the LGPL?
14:39	technomancy	I think that's just something that people do because they're used to working in Java where you already have a bunch of boilerplate anyway. =)
14:39	Licenser	^^
14:40	programble	shouldnt you at least have a one liner'
14:40	programble	; License under the EPL
14:40	Chousuke	or ; see LICENCE file for details
14:40	technomancy	programble: that goes in the readme
14:40	technomancy	or license
14:40	technomancy	doesn't have to be spewed across every single file.
14:40	programble	if the files get separated?
14:41	Chousuke	I think a simple licence header should be in every file
14:41	Chousuke	makes things easier in case someone inspects just one of the file
14:41	Chousuke	s
14:41	technomancy	programble: then they're still under the same copyright as before; nothing changed
14:42	programble	^ like Chousuke said
14:42	Chousuke	technomancy: yes, but it's an issue for people who need to know what the licence is :)
14:42	technomancy	Chousuke: hopefully they can tell from the ns clause what project the file is a part of and do the legwork to track it down.
14:42	technomancy	they're the ones wanting to use the code; they can do a little more work to figure it out. =)
14:42	Chousuke	Yes. unless the project was relicenced in the meantime.
14:43	Chousuke	or a number of other funky things happened
14:43	Chousuke	A header doesn't take much space, and makes things simpler, so I would include one in any case, just to be safe.
14:43	programble	funky thigns
14:45	technomancy	btw: someone with commit rights to contrib should remove this file: http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/blob/master/CPL.TXT
14:48	rads	how do I sort a query with congomongo? use the java api?
14:48	chouser	technomancy: done, thanks.
14:48	tomoj	rads: I think there is no other way yet
14:48	tomoj	I was going to write a patch for that but haven't had time yet
14:52	rads	how do you even sort with the java api? can't seem to find it
14:53	rads	oh, it's part of DBCurosr
14:53	rads	DBCursor*
15:08	reburg	hey, i'm having a problem where JSwat doesn't show line numbers in clj files, and i'm unable to set breakpoints. google dug up a few other people with a similar problem, but i couldn't find any solution.
15:08	hiredman	reburg: how are you loading the clojure code?
15:10	reburg	i'm connecting to a remote (actually local) running java process, manually setting the sourcepath.
15:11	hiredman	reburg: did you see http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/267cc5cc6cef6403
15:13	reburg	hiredman: i should try it in a less cockamamie setup... the thing i'm debugging is a java embedded in another application, and i've hacked clojure to use a funny classloader
15:14	Drakeson	is (fn [x] (when (pred x) x)) defined somewhere?
15:15	Drakeson	actually, I meant (fn [pred x] (when (pred x) x))
15:16	tomoj	how about (if x x y)
15:17	Drakeson	tomoj: that is "or"
15:17	tomoj	oh, (or x y)
15:17	tomoj	yep :)
15:17	tomoj	thanks
15:17	kotarak	tomoj: beware if nil and false are valid values
15:17	tomoj	thanks, they aren't
15:18	hiredman	Drakeson: when-let?
15:18	hiredman	bleh actually it's and
15:18	hiredman	(and (pred x) x)
15:19	Drakeson	,(defn assure [pref x] (when (pred x) x))
15:19	clojurebot	DENIED
15:19	hiredman	,(and (even? 2) 2)
15:19	clojurebot	2
15:19	hiredman	,(and (even? 1) 2)
15:19	clojurebot	false
15:19	Drakeson	hiredman: the whole point is to have just one "x"
15:20	hiredman	shrug
15:20	Drakeson	(defn assure [pref x] (when (pred x) x)) (assure not-empty? (some computation))
15:22	Drakeson	or maybe even better, (assure coll? not-empty? nice? high-quality? (some calculation))
15:31	fliebel	I don't want to start a language war, but I'd like to hear some opinions about other lisps, I never did any lisp before clojure, are they very different?
15:32	danlei	they all share sexps
15:33	danlei	(but some have surface syntax, like dylan)
15:33	hiredman	fliebel: http://clojure.org/rationale there is a section on lisp
15:38	fliebel	thanks
15:40	fliebel	I'm looking for a Clojure internship in The Netherlands, but I only found one for Common Lisp.
15:47	Drakeson	wasn't there a variation of -> that stops when any intermediate result is nil?
15:47	tomoj	-?>
15:47	tomoj	in contrib
15:47	tomoj	(I think)
15:47	ordnungswidrig	tomoj: yes.
15:48	tomoj	clojure.contrib.core/-?>
15:50	Drakeson	thanks :)
15:52	reburg	hiredman: ok, i've now tried it in a vanilla kind of setup. i still get no line numbers in jswat's source window, and can't set any breakpoints
15:52	hiredman	:(
15:53	hiredman	vanilla as in you followed th instructions in that post?
15:55	reburg	hiredman: yeah. i made a simple namespace "cycljng.hello" with one method, started a clojure instance with the debug-related stuff on the command line and clojure.jar and the directory w/ the cycljng directory in the classpath, did (load "cycljng/hello"), then attached jswat
15:56	hiredman	reburg: yeah, no
15:57	reburg	hiredman: "yeah, no" meaning i did it wrong?
15:58	hiredman	reburg: I think you'll need to aot compile your code
15:58	reburg	ok, well i actually did that first
15:58	dnolen	how can one download jars directly from clojars?
15:59	reburg	dnolen: clojars.org/repo
15:59	reburg	hiredman: but it didn't seem to work. since the link you pointed to said to load the file at the repl, i did that
15:59	hiredman	hmmm
15:59	hiredman	ok, sorry, I dunno then
16:00	reburg	hiredman: thanks anyhow. i'm gonna maybe try a 3.x version of jswat
16:01	reburg	although the jswat page complains that there's some bug w/ jdk6u11+ and older versions...
16:04	reburg	initial success! jswat 3.16 shows the line numbers! now i try breakpoints.
16:06	reburg	aaaand it works. apparently the moral is that updating your software is bad.
16:26	cljneo	hi, how can I add a specific directory to the classpath before launching slime/swank to start a repl
16:33	mabes	For logging in a compojure app what is the popular method? Use org.mortbay.log.Log or clojure.contrib.logging? Totally new to both so I don't know what the potential tradeoffs would be...
16:33	mabes	or maybe c.c.logging can be used with org.mortbay.log.Log?
16:35	arohner	cljneo: are you using lein?
16:35	arohner	cljneo: or starting manually?
16:35	cljneo	yes but I don't need to create a project. I just want to launch a repl to experiment with a library
16:37	cljneo	arohner: I see some functions in swank but I don't know how to use them. Like swank-clojure-classpath
16:37	arohner	cljneo: the easiest way is probably to just make a simple project.clj
16:38	arohner	and dump your library .jar in lib/
16:38	Chousuke	I think you can just do (add-to-list 'swank-clojure-classpath "somepath")
16:38	Chousuke	then start swank
16:38	arohner	if you're already using lein
16:38	arohner	if you're using lein
16:38	cljneo	let me try that
16:38	reburg	cljneo: if you're using slime, making a lein project file and then running lein swank is probably just as simple as configuring swank
16:43	cljneo	I tried Chousuke's form but got (void-variable swank-clojure-classpath)
16:49	Chousuke	hmm
16:49	Chousuke	you need to have swank required, of course.
16:49	Chousuke	let me check my config :P
16:50	Chousuke	yeah, at least I didn't get the variable name wrong :)
16:52	Chousuke	Though it might be that the variable won't exist even after clojure-swank is loaded. I guess you'll have to do (setq swank-clojure-classpath (list "paths")) or something then :/
16:52	cljneo	I'll try that
16:52	Chousuke	make sure you include the clojure jar in the paths :)
16:55	cljneo	even if swank is loaded, the classpath does not change. Doesn't the jvm support dynamically adding to the classpath?
16:58	Licenser	there shall be releases!
17:01	technomancy	cljneo: it does not.
17:01	brandonw	cljneo: http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure look under Usage after step 4.
17:03	cljneo	I see. I searched and found it cannot be done (changing classpath) except with a hack
17:04	cljneo	like the one here http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t148021-dynamically-change-the-classpath.html
17:30	nathanmarz	technomancy: leiningen q for you
17:57	technomancy	nathanmarz: oh?
18:00	nathanmarz	so my app is dependent on hadoop, but i can't include hadoop as a dependency using the normal mechanisms
18:00	nathanmarz	for two reasons: one, i'm using uberjar to distribute my jobs and can't include hadoop in there
18:00	nathanmarz	second, i need to set some configs in hadoop to get my local setup working correctly
18:01	nathanmarz	i ended up hacking leiningen so that project.clj could include something like ":external-libraries [(System/getenv "HADOOP_HOME")]"
18:01	nathanmarz	what are your thoughts on that / should i be doing this a different way?
18:02	tomoj	it seems 'lein test' has a 0 exit code when the tests fail
18:04	technomancy	tomoj: yes, it's impossible (afaict) to return an exit code from the subclassloader in which the tests run.
18:05	technomancy	nathanmarz: maybe put hadoop configs in resources/?
18:05	tomoj	technomancy: that sucks
18:05	tomoj	guess I should grep it?
18:06	technomancy	tomoj: there might be a way to do it with some more digging into the ant API, but I couldn't find a way when I looked.
18:06	technomancy	nathanmarz: oh, I see what you mean. yeah, I remember hadoop configuration being pretty disastrous.
18:07	nathanmarz	yea, i don't want to distribute the configs i have locally - that's just for testing stuff locally
18:13	tomoj	"! lein test \| grep -q FAIL" seems to work
18:30	jcromartie	It seems to me that Clojure would be a great place to build a rules engine.
18:49	dcnstrct	hi. Question: when you compile a clojure program down to .class files.. the bytecode that is produced... is it relatively trivial to decompile these .class files and reverse engineer them just like normal java bytecode ? or is the code significantly obfuscated ?
18:50	a_strange_guy	dcnstrct: pretty impossible to do so
18:50	arohner	dcnstrct: it's not intentionally obfuscated
18:50	arohner	how readable it is depends on how good at assembly you are :-)
18:51	dcnstrct	so would you say it's at least as obfuscated as jruby bytecode ?
18:51	programble	why does it matter?
18:52	arohner	if you're curious about how readable it is, just go look at one
18:52	dcnstrct	well I'm thinking of building consumer application that I will have to ship to customers and I would rather keep the program from being cracked for a while if I can
18:52	dcnstrct	good idea arohner
18:53	arohner	basically every DRM system ever created has been cracked. It's just a question of motivation
18:54	dcnstrct	yes :) I know DRM never even worked in theory much less in practice.
18:54	a_strange_guy	dcnstrct: if they are motivated, they could start a repl inside your program and poke around
18:56	dcnstrct	I just wanted to make sure clojure byecode didn't decompile into prestinly readible java class files. These crackers are not goin to go through the trouble to learn clojure. Besides poking around in my program from a repl would not be much of a problem that would not help them defeat the licensing system.
18:58	a_strange_guy	the classfiles rarely decompile into legal java
18:58	arohner	I have a deftype that implements IPersistentMap. I want to print its contents in an exception message, but I the string 'foo__3857@df0f7c2" appears
18:59	arohner	rather than the output that (pr foo) would generate
18:59	a_strange_guy	arohner: don't use toString
19:00	a_strange_guy	,(print-string (map str '(1 2 3 4 5)))
19:00	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: print-string in this context
19:02	a_strange_guy	,(pr-str (map str '(1 2 3 4 5)))
19:02	clojurebot	"(\"1\" \"2\" \"3\" \"4\" \"5\")"
19:02	arohner	a_strange_guy: thanks
19:02	a_strange_guy	,(str (map str '(1 2 3 4 5)))
19:02	clojurebot	"clojure.lang.LazySeq@47ed8d2"
19:05	{newbie}	,(doseq (str (map str '(1 2 3 4 5))))
19:05	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: doseq requires a vector for its binding
19:06	{newbie}	,(doall (str (map str '(1 2 3 4 5))))
19:06	clojurebot	"clojure.lang.LazySeq@47ed8d2"
19:07	a_strange_guy	{newbie}: i was just demonstrating the difference between print and .toString
19:08	{newbie}	a_strange_guy: and I was trying to do a retarded thing
19:08	a_strange_guy	;)
19:08	a_strange_guy	lazy strings
19:09	{newbie}	yeah
19:09	{newbie}	I didin't look at the "s
19:09	{newbie}	around lazyseq
19:18	slyphon	how do you "append" an element to the end of a vector?
19:18	slyphon	assoc?
19:18	technomancy	conj'll do it
19:18	slyphon	oh, duh duh duh
19:18	slyphon	of course
19:19	slyphon	awesome
19:22	slyphon	hrm
19:22	slyphon	there's no built-in way to uniq a (non-infinite) sequence?
19:23	technomancy	slyphon: you can convert it into a set.
19:23	technomancy	,(set [2 2 2 34 4 5])
19:23	clojurebot	#{2 34 4 5}
19:23	slyphon	yeah, and lose ordering...
19:23	technomancy	true
19:24	slyphon	oh, sorted-set
19:24	slyphon	no
19:24	slyphon	hrm
19:24	slyphon	i guess i can just do includes? before adding the item
19:37	slyphon	heh, from the Dept. of Helpful Documentation:
19:37	slyphon	array-map: Constructs an array-map.
19:37	slyphon	thanks!
19:51	hiredman	,(doc split-with)
19:51	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns a vector of [(take-while pred coll) (drop-while pred coll)]"
19:52	hiredman	^- implementation in docstring
19:52	hiredman	,(doc distinct)
19:52	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the elements of coll with duplicates removed"
19:56	slyphon	oh, that'll do it
19:58	hiredman	~def distinct
20:01	programble	how can i tell if a value is in a list?
20:01	programble	,(some? \a "aeiou")
20:01	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: some? in this context
20:01	programble	er
20:01	programble	,(some \a "aeiou")
20:01	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
20:02	programble	agh im so n00b
20:02	programble	lol
20:02	programble	,(some #(= % \a) "aeiou")
20:02	clojurebot	true
20:02	programble	that works, but is there an easier/shorter way?
20:05	a_strange_guy	,(some #{\a} "aeiou")
20:05	clojurebot	\a
20:07	programble	excuse my n00bness...
20:08	programble	some takes a predicate or a set?
20:09	arohner	programble: sets, and maps, can operate as functions
20:09	arohner	({:a 1 :b 2} :b)
20:09	arohner	returns 2
20:09	arohner	,({:a 1, :b 2} :b)
20:09	clojurebot	2
20:09	arohner	,({:a 1, :b 2} :bogus)
20:09	clojurebot	nil
20:10	programble	oh yeah
20:10	programble	cool
20:10	rhickey_	,(some {:a 1, :b 2} [:z :b])
20:10	clojurebot	2
20:10	programble	i basically wanted it to check if something was a vowel
20:12	rhickey_	(def vowel? #{\a \e \i \o \u})
20:14	programble	oh that would work too
20:19	programble	hiredman: around?
20:21	hiredman	programble: yes
20:21	S11001001	programble: there are different vowels for different languages, you may want to check a unicode database instead ;)
20:22	programble	S11001001: i think aeiou will do fine for my purposes
20:22	programble	hiredman: i am supposed to ask you how to make a /secure/ clojure eval bot
20:23	S11001001	programble: hmm, you wouldn't happen to be writing a servlet with compojure, programble, would you?
20:23	programble	S11001001: im writing a simple piglatin translator :P
20:23	hiredman	clojurebot: sandbox
20:23	clojurebot	sandbox is http://calumleslie.blogspot.com/2008/06/simple-jvm-sandboxing.html
20:24	programble	thanks
20:24	hiredman	the sandboxing will stop IO, that kind of stuff
20:24	S11001001	then you might want to count w as a vowel
20:24	programble	hm...
20:24	hiredman	but you can still do stuff like putting the bot into an infinite loop
20:24	programble	water -> aterway
20:24	programble	works fine
20:24	S11001001	aterway -> ater
20:25	S11001001	since ater -> aterway
20:25	programble	um...
20:25	programble	no
20:25	hiredman	different dialects of p. latin
20:25	S11001001	madness!
20:27	programble	im going with the food -> oodfay so water -> aterway
20:27	S11001001	apple -> ...
20:29	programble	apple
20:29	programble	thats why i check for vowels
20:29	programble	(some #{(first s)} "aeiou")
20:29	programble	s
20:37	technomancy	so clojure.test has extensible assertion reporting, right?
20:37	technomancy	(is (= [...])) has special equality checking that (is bool) doesn't
20:37	technomancy	I wonder if it could be extended to be smarter about checking equality of maps
20:37	technomancy	so it would only show the keys/values that were different
20:45	S11001001	technomancy: I'm doing that with clojure.test
20:45	technomancy	S11001001: you're extending it to support that?
20:46	S11001001	technomancy: not exactly, but the semantics are similar: (defmethod assert-expr 'has-assocs? [msg [_ map assocs]] `(report ...))
20:46	technomancy	interesting
20:46	technomancy	that's already supported?
20:46	S11001001	the generated expr should evaluate to return {:type ... :message ... :expected ...}; the exact format of these can be seen in the other examples in test.clj
20:46	S11001001	as of 1.1
20:47	technomancy	cool
20:48	technomancy	I guess since those methods aren't first-class they don't have high visibility
20:49	technomancy	S11001001: that's not present in my checkout of 1.2
20:50	S11001001	technomancy: it's there in b497cbb
20:52	technomancy	S11001001: is this in a brach or something?
20:52	technomancy	no mention of it in http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/commits/master/src/clj/clojure/test.clj
20:55	S11001001	technomancy: it's the head of master in richhickey's clojure
20:56	S11001001	technomancy: oh, are you looking for 'has-assocs?
20:57	S11001001	sorry, I meant to say that is how I extended `is' in a module for better reporting.
20:59	technomancy	S11001001: gotcha. any plans to submit it upstream?
21:01	S11001001	I'll ask Jeff Straszheim, a contributor I work with, if he thinks it would be generally useful
21:01	S11001001	it actually tests that arg0 has a superset of arg1's assocs, so is not quite what you're looking for :/
21:01	technomancy	actually that would work here
21:01	technomancy	but a more general diffing solution would be nice too
21:07	S11001001	technomancy\|away: http://paste.lisp.org/display/95904
21:22	Raynes	Are there any instructions anywhere for running your own clojurebot?
21:26	hiredman	it takes a wily cunning and nerves of steel
21:27	programble	in other words, you designed it in a way that does not facilitate running it on any other machine except the one you are running it on
21:31	hiredman	uh, well, I wouldn't say it was designed that way
21:31	hiredman	I just don't run any other instances so that is not an itch I've scratched
21:31	programble	but it wasn't designed with anyone in mind except for yourself
21:32	Raynes	If anyone replied to me /after/ I asked that question, I didn't get said reply.
21:32	programble	not a good way to design software
21:32	programble	Raynes: <hiredman> it takes a wily cunning and nerves of steel
21:32	programble	rogramble> in other words, you designed it in a way that does not facilitate running it on any other machine except the one you are running it on
21:33	Raynes	Aye.
21:33	Raynes	I'd just rather not have to write my own. ;)
21:41	programble	hiredman: is it possible?
21:42	jcromartie	probablyCorey: you're doing Clojure now too?
21:42	jcromartie	a man of good tastes
21:43	hiredman	programble: yes
21:43	hiredman	you just need to rip stuff out until it works, I guess
21:44	programble	oh nice
21:44	Raynes	It appears there needs to be a clojurebot.properties file.
21:44	Raynes	Where should that be, and what exactly should go in it?
21:52	hiredman	Raynes: on the classpath somewhere
21:53	hiredman	to say it needs it is kind of uh, well I use it to store passwords that I don't want to git commit, but it is very possible, and I did for a long time, to run the bot without it
21:54	hiredman	it's only used from hiredman.clojurebot
21:55	Raynes	hiredman: Yeah, I removed all that stuff. I have it working, though it did give me an error.
21:56	Raynes	Whatever it was, it doesn't appear to have broken the bot.
21:56	hiredman	feel free to share errors
21:57	Raynes	http://gist.github.com/321353 I'm surprised it works at all. I removed all the stuff that didn't /look/ important. :)
21:57	hiredman	at some point I'd like a proper -main and being able to run it from a jar with a config file
21:58	Raynes	That would be cool.
21:59	hiredman	ah
21:59	hiredman	that is the max people thing
22:00	Raynes	What is this factoid server stuff?
22:01	hiredman	it's an http/json interface for querying the factoid database
22:02	Raynes	What do I need to remove to keep it from spamming github commits on startup? :o
22:02	hiredman	the github entry in the :require in hiredman.clojurebot should do it
22:03	hiredman	and it should only spam the first time or so
22:03	Raynes	Oh.
22:03	hiredman	the plugins are loaded there
22:04	Raynes	This is easier than it looked, assuming I don't break it.
22:04	hiredman	or you can remove the (hiredman.clojurebot.github/start-github-watch mybot "#clojure")
22:05	Raynes	More than I've already broke it, that is. :>
22:24	Raynes	,(def x 2)
22:24	clojurebot	DENIED
22:31	slyphon	uh, how do you compile a clojure file w/o running the repl?
22:32	slyphon	oh
22:32	slyphon	google knows everything
22:32	hiredman	I usually use -e "(compile 'foo.bar)"
22:33	slyphon	what does that full cmdline look like?
22:33	slyphon	clj -e "(compile 'foo.bar)"?
22:33	hiredman	java clojure.main -e …
22:33	slyphon	ah, k
23:50	slyphon	the "implicit 'this' arg" for a gen-class method means that i can "just use it" without having to do (defn -meth [this] ...) ?