#clojure – 2009-10-06

2009-10-06

01:13	slyrus_	hmm... what's the idiomatic approach when one feels like the would normally use CL's return-from construct?
01:56	konr	should I read Let Over Lambda? Is it relevant to clojure programming?
02:00	sdeobald_	I don't have stu's book in front of me and my googling is failing me. How can (may?) I bind an anonymous function so that it can call/recurse on itself?
02:03	slashus2	(fn functionname [] (functionname))
02:04	slashus2	sdeobald: ^
02:04	sdeobald_	Thanks.
02:05	slashus2	Or you can use recur
02:06	sdeobald_	I'm actually making a weak attempt at converting an SICP exercise, so recur might be cheating and/or going too far.
02:11	hiredman	well, if you are doing sicp you might want to find a copy of the Y combinator
02:30	sdeobald_	hiredman: is there a book/paper by that name, specifically? Or do you just mean the concept in general?
02:31	sdeobald_	If anyone's interested: http://github.com/deobald/sicp-clojure/blob/master/1.1/sec_1_1_8.clj
02:31	sdeobald_	I'd love to hear thoughts on how to make the re-binding of 'sqrt-iter' go away.
02:37	hiredman	no paper, I think someone implemented a clojure version on the google group
02:38	sdeobald_	Cool, thanks.
02:38	hiredman	well, no paper I was specifically refering to
02:38	sdeobald_	Gotcha
03:13	Fossi	hi
03:41	jdz	sdeobald: what rebindingL
03:41	jdz	?
03:41	jdz	sdeobald: and i'm pretty sure you want to use recur
04:13	Maddas	sdeobald: If you want to read up on the Y combinator, there's a paper titled "The Why of Y"
04:47	konr	What do you think of Common Lisp?
04:49	Chousuke	I tried it when I first heard about lisp but I never really got into it :/
04:52	LauJensen	konr: Coming from C# to CL it has very thrilling. Coming from Clojure to CL it will feel very out dated and moronic
04:52	LauJensen	s/has/was
04:53	jdz	well, after doing some work stuff in Clojure for last 3 or so months coming back to CL seems like a dream come true, really
04:54	jdz	i never thought i would be so happy seeing a real backtrace
04:54	LauJensen	jdz, why ?
04:54	Raynes	I saw that coming.
04:54	jdz	with restarts
04:54	jdz	just my experience, yours will vary
04:54	yason	konr: It's more complex than I would desire from a language, and practically has no standard environment and libraries to run with (think Python, Java). But it has good, novel things too, if you're willing to immerse into it.
04:55	Raynes	I've got everything I need with Clojure. <3
04:55	jdz	except a backtrace you can find useful information in :/
04:56	Chousuke	backtraces in Clojure are horrible, yes :P
04:56	Raynes	jdz: I don't need that.
04:56	Raynes	\o/
04:56	Chousuke	my reader (which I still have to finish) have me exceptions wrapped in about 20 layers of RuntimeException for some reason ;(
04:57	Chousuke	I wish I had more time to work on Clojure stuff now
04:57	Chousuke	I'm always getting distracted by something else I need to do
04:58	Raynes	Chousuke: Let's build that time machine I designed back in '02, and we can do just that.
04:58	Chousuke	Raynes: we can go back in time and incorporate cool Clojure features in Common Lisp.
04:59	Raynes	Chousuke: Or we can kill all those associated with the creation of Common Lisp and create a Lisp with Clojure characteristics in it's place, and then return to the future to see how we modified the future.
04:59	Chousuke	that's a bit drastic.
05:00	Raynes	Yes, but what do we have to lose?
05:00	Raynes	We can just go back and not kill them.
05:00	Raynes	Besides that, they shall not die in vain.
05:00	Chousuke	The creators of CL are still smart people. they would be more useful if we brainwashed them
05:01	jdz	Raynes: if you see Common Lisp around like it is, it means you have not gone back from the future and have not corrected the past
05:01	jdz	easy as that
05:02	Chousuke	actually, if you changed the future you would forget that it ever was different
05:02	Chousuke	so you'd think you had failed.
05:02	Maddas	Clearly none of you saw Star Trek (the recent movie).
05:02	Raynes	Not necessarily.
05:02	Raynes	There would be new versions of ourselves when we return to the future, but we should still remain.
05:02	Raynes	Anyways, I'm actually going to bed, goodnight <3.
05:03	konr	bye
05:07	LauJensen	jdz, I must say I'm surprised that after using STM, atoms, agents, java libs and vector bindings that you would want to go back to CL
05:07	jdz	LauJensen: in the application domain i use i have no use for those, really. like, interfacing with a foreign code that is not thread-safe
05:08	jdz	and java libs suck balls
05:08	jdz	oh, did i say that out loud?
05:36	Chousuke	gah :(
05:37	Chousuke	terminal crashed while I was compiling emacs
05:50	LauJensen	Chousuke, where's your reader?
05:51	Chousuke	still on github :P
05:52	LauJensen	link?
05:53	Chousuke	lazy, huh :P
05:53	Chousuke	http://github.com/Chousuke/clojure/tree/clojure-reader
05:54	Chousuke	the next step would be to make Clojure actually use it but that requires messing with the java code and I'm not quite sure how to proceed :/
05:54	LauJensen	lazy?? What does it take nowadays to search for 'Chousuke', then bring up your 'clojure-reader' project, 10 minz?
05:55	LauJensen	Chousuke, I'm sure the Group can answer that question, ie. Rich is there
05:56	LauJensen	I see you didn't do a reader.clj - which files have you worked with ?
05:56	Chousuke	it's in src/clj/clojure/lang/reader.clj :P
05:56	LauJensen	aah gotcha :P
05:57	Chousuke	it's also based on my syntax-quote-macro modification of core.clj, which is on its own in the sq-macro branch
05:58	LauJensen	Why black-hole ?
05:58	Chousuke	I just needed something I could conj onto that ignores the item
06:00	LauJensen	Chousuke, Are you away that you can actually put documentation directly in the source, the so-called doc-strings? When you have function names like 'make-rh', 'quick-rh', etc, it really speeds up reading for other people looking at your source
06:00	LauJensen	s/away/ware
06:00	LauJensen	s/ware/aware
06:00	Chousuke	yes. I might document it later.
06:00	Fossi	"might" xD
06:00	Chousuke	the make-rh stuff will probably go away anyway
06:01	LauJensen	I'll commend you on your brevity of source, but it's really lacking in 1) no documentation, 2) an abundance of 'magic' numbers
06:02	Chousuke	you mean the parameters to the advance function?
06:03	LauJensen	More like "(<= 0xD800 ch 0xDFFF)" "(and (== 5 (count string)) (try (Integer/parseInt (subs string 1) 16)" "(not (<= 0 ch 0377))" etc
06:03	Chousuke	oh, right. that.
06:03	Chousuke	that's directly copied from the Java Reader. :)
06:03	Chousuke	though hm, I think it had comment s :P
06:03	Chousuke	-s
06:03	Chousuke	er, -' ' I mean
06:03	LauJensen	hehe
06:05	Chousuke	the symbol resolution stuff in the keyword handling is icky
06:06	Chousuke	there seems to be no good way to resolve a symbol to its full form without many conditionals ;/
06:10	Chousuke	hmm
06:10	Chousuke	I'm using #() in the definition of the #() implementation function :P
06:10	Chousuke	I wonder if I'll have to fix that.
06:14	danlei	not if you're compiling clojure to clojure :p
07:58	licoresse	What is the best tool for looking up stuff in java doc?
07:58	LauJensen	I recommend: Your eyes
07:59	licoresse	haha
07:59	LauJensen	;)
07:59	licoresse	I remember a site, in the beginning of 2000, that let you search for keywords and presented examples where the keyword was present
08:00	licoresse	it was a great tool
08:00	LauJensen	Google you mean ?
08:01	licoresse	LauJensen: no... not goggle
08:02	konr	What's the clojure equivalent of CL's find-all?
08:04	konr	select!
08:14	LauJensen	licoresse, I can't determine if you're being serious or not - What tool could you want to go through a Javadoc? You always know which classes your looking, and a simple search gives you the description. What more is there?
08:15	licoresse	Ah, my point was examples
08:15	LauJensen	aaah
08:15	licoresse	getting related examples to the Canvas class f.ex
08:15	licoresse	hehe
08:16	licoresse	eyes
08:16	chouser	http://www.google.com/codesearch?q=Canvas+lang:java
08:17	licoresse	ah nice!
08:18	LauJensen	The first example is real nice, couldn't be any clearer than a one-liner
08:19	chouser	yeah, it's an excellent example of Java
08:19	chouser	public static final i forgot what i was doing...
08:46	LauJensen	It's funny that my first version of brians brain attracted thousands of readers, but my transient rewrite has barely had 200 views :)
08:47	ambient	it might have something to do where it was linked
08:47	ambient	visibility is king
08:48	LauJensen	I know - But I don't do anything to promote it, except put it on dzone, just to see what happends naturally
08:49	Chousuke	LauJensen: I don't see you in the clojure pipe ;(
08:50	LauJensen	There's a Clojure pipe? :)
08:50	Chousuke	yes
08:51	ambient	the original post is linked on reddit, the second one is not
08:51	LauJensen	Yea, I wonder why
08:57	konr	Hmmm, should I change a value set by (bindings)?
08:57	konr	*(binding)
08:57	LauJensen	konr, in which situation ?
09:02	konr	LauJensen: I'm adapting some CL code that has several functions that access global variables. These variables can be overridden at a main function, so I'm not sure whether I should override them with (binding) or use references, setting them at the main function
09:03	LauJensen	konr, I think you need to think the design through before you start coding, a 1-to-1 translation will probably give you very bad looking clojure code. If you're loading settings, it might be better to stuff them all in a hash-map, rather than have 100 global defs etc.
09:05	Chousuke	if your code is (or will be) threaded you must also take that into account.
09:10	LauJensen	yes, then you're looking at refs or atoms
09:14	Chousuke	I guess you could use alter-var-root though :/
09:14	Chousuke	if it really is one-time configuration
09:17	LauJensen	,(doc alter-var-root)
09:17	clojurebot	"([v f & args]); Atomically alters the root binding of var v by applying f to its current value plus any args"
09:17	LauJensen	Never used that
09:20	Chousuke	chouser showed a neat use of it on the group
09:20	Chousuke	hmm
09:21	LauJensen	got link ?
09:21	Chousuke	well, it was just (alter-var-root #'somefunc memoize)
09:23	Chousuke	,`defang
09:23	clojurebot	sandbox/defang
09:23	Chousuke	not visible in the sandbox I guess ;(
09:23	Chousuke	clojurebot: source
09:23	clojurebot	source is http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master
09:24	Chousuke	,`de-fang
09:24	Chousuke	hm.
09:24	clojurebot	sandbox/de-fang
09:24	Chousuke	,#'hiredman.sandbox/de-fang
09:24	clojurebot	#'hiredman.sandbox/de-fang
09:25	Chousuke	,(alter-var-root #'hiredman.sandbox/de-fang (fn [x] identity))
09:25	clojurebot	#<core$identity__4657 clojure.core$identity__4657@1e07f4b>
09:25	Chousuke	,(defn foo [x] x)
09:25	clojurebot	Wrong number of args passed to: core$identity
09:25	Chousuke	oops
09:25	Chousuke	:(
09:25	Chousuke	hiredman: sorry, I broke clojurebot
09:25	Chousuke	hiredman: but you need to fix that hole
09:29	Chousuke	hiredman: you need to make the defang function and the bad-forms global local to the sanbox-eval function :P
09:32	Chousuke	hmm
09:32	Chousuke	,#=(alter-var-root #'hiredman.sandbox/de-fang (fn [x] (fn [form _] form)))
09:32	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Var
09:34	Chousuke	,#=(alter-var-root #=(var hiredman.sandbox/de-fang) (fn [x] (fn [form _] form)))
09:34	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
09:34	Chousuke	,#=(alter-var-root #=(var hiredman.sandbox/de-fang) #=(fn [x] (fn [form _] form)))
09:34	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
09:34	Chousuke	gah
09:34	Chousuke	,#=(alter-var-root #=(var hiredman.sandbox/de-fang) #=(fn [x] #=(fn [form _] form)))
09:34	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
09:35	Chousuke	I suppose I can't fix it :(
09:36	Chousuke	,#=(alter-var-root #=(var hiredman.sandbox/de-fang) #=(fn* [x] #=(fn* [form _] form)))
09:36	clojurebot	Can't resolve fn*
09:37	Chousuke	,#=(alter-var-root #=(var hiredman.sandbox/de-fang) #=(eval '(fn [x] (fn [form _] form))))
09:37	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
09:38	Chousuke	,#=(alter-var-root #=(var hiredman.sandbox/de-fang) #=(eval (fn [x] (fn [form _] form))))
09:38	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval__2941$fn__2943$fn__2945 sandbox$eval__2941$fn__2943$fn__2945@1ab5e85>
09:38	Chousuke	hmm
09:39	Chousuke	,4
09:39	clojurebot	4
09:39	Chousuke	hooray
09:42	Chousuke	this particular security hole is really nasty though :(
09:44	Chousuke	might be better to kill Clojurebot before anyone really exploits it :P
09:50	liwp	Chousuke: remind me: what does #= do?
09:50	Chousuke	read-time evaluation
09:50	Chousuke	that's not the main security hole though.
09:50	liwp	nope
09:50	Chousuke	the real hole is that I can override the sanboxing function...
09:51	Chousuke	sandboxing*
09:51	liwp	I was just trying to figure out how you fixed clojurebot
09:51	liwp	after breaking it
09:51	Chousuke	well, I notice that clojurebot doesn't bind read-eval to false
09:52	Chousuke	I'm still contemplating whether I should just kill Clojurebot or wait till hiredman responds ;(
09:53	Chousuke	noticed* ;P
09:54	Chousuke	I think it would be useful if you could mark vars as truly immutable
09:54	liwp	definitely in this case
09:55	Chousuke	but there are problems with that, too I guess.
09:55	liwp	it's also against the dynamic nature of lisp
09:55	liwp	but that's more of a philosophical argument
09:56	Chousuke	I wonder if the bound-fn macro could help.
09:56	liwp	I haven't really been following the bound-fn conversation so far
09:56	liwp	I've never really been bitten by laziness in clojure so I haven't cared
09:57	Chousuke	though because you can basically change any var to anything it won't help much ;(
09:57	Chousuke	and somehow I doubt there's a way to disallow all possible ways of changing a var without crippling clojurebot completely
10:03	Chousuke	hmm
10:05	Chousuke	,(alter-var-root #'hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms (constantly {}))
10:05	clojurebot	{}
10:06	Chousuke	(alter-var-root #'hiredman.sandbox/de-fang (fn [form notallowed] (if (list? form) (when (not (some notallowed (tree-seq seq? #(let [a (macroexpand %)] (or (and (seq? a) a) (list a))) form))) form) form))))
10:06	Chousuke	,(alter-var-root #'hiredman.sandbox/de-fang (fn [form notallowed] (if (list? form) (when (not (some notallowed (tree-seq seq? #(let [a (macroexpand %)] (or (and (seq? a) a) (list a))) form))) form) form))))
10:06	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: sandbox$eval--2954$fn
10:06	liwp	Did you just disable all sandboxing from clojurebot?
10:06	Chousuke	no
10:06	Chousuke	I'm trying to fix it
10:07	Chousuke	the sandboxing was alredy disabled :P
10:07	Chousuke	,1
10:07	clojurebot	1
10:07	liwp	I mean the (constantly {}) bit
10:07	liwp	fair enough ;)
10:07	Chousuke	,(alter-var-root #'hiredman.sandbox/de-fang (fn [form notallowed] (if (list? form) (when (not (some notallowed (tree-seq seq? #(let [a (macroexpand %)] (or (and (seq? a) a) (list a))) form))) form) form)))
10:07	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: sandbox$eval--2966$fn
10:07	Chousuke	gah
10:07	Chousuke	the defang function is too complex
10:08	Chousuke	,(alter-var-root #'hiredman.sandbox/de-fang (constantly (fn [form notallowed] (if (list? form) (when (not (some notallowed (tree-seq seq? #(let [a (macroexpand %)] (or (and (seq? a) a) (list a))) form))) form) form))))
10:08	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval__2978$fn__2980 sandbox$eval__2978$fn__2980@ca1465>
10:08	liwp	don't you need an extra layer of fn in that, because alter-var-root takes and fn that is applied to the var?
10:08	Chousuke	okay, now the defang thingy should be working
10:08	liwp	exactly
10:09	liwp	so what does it do exactly?
10:09	liwp	filters out bad forms?
10:09	Chousuke	,(alter-var-root #'hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms assoc 'this-is-a-test)
10:09	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$assoc
10:09	liwp	one more arg
10:10	Chousuke	gah, it was a set originally...
10:10	liwp	heh
10:10	Chousuke	,(alter-var-root #'hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms (constantly #{'this-is-a-test}))
10:10	clojurebot	#{this-is-a-test}
10:10	Chousuke	,this-is-a-test
10:10	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: this-is-a-test in this context
10:10	Chousuke	hmm.
10:11	Chousuke	,eval
10:11	clojurebot	#<core$eval__5182 clojure.core$eval__5182@4d8040>
10:11	Chousuke	sigh
10:11	Chousuke	maybe I should just give up
10:12	liwp	can you rebind alter-root-var and thereby plug the hole?
10:12	liwp	for the time being
10:12	Chousuke	that might break other things though
10:12	liwp	OTOH the bot is broken in any case so you can't really make things worse that way...?
10:13	Chousuke	,(eval '5)
10:13	liwp	it's gone to bed?
10:13	clojurebot	5
10:14	Chousuke	nope :(
10:14	Chousuke	,(this-is-a-test '5)
10:14	clojurebot	DENIED
10:14	Chousuke	ooh
10:14	Chousuke	okay, now I can perhaps fix it
10:14	liwp	so now you need to add all the bad forms to your set
10:15	liwp	maybe remove your this-is-a-test as well ;)
10:15	Chousuke	,(alter-var-root #'hiredman.sanbox/bad-forms (constantly #{'intern 'eval 'def 'catch 'load-string 'load-reader 'clojure.core/addMethod 'hiredman.clojurebot/bot}))
10:15	clojurebot	Chousuke: Excuse me?
10:15	Chousuke	,(alter-var-root #'hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms (constantly #{'intern 'eval 'def 'catch 'load-string 'load-reader 'clojure.core/addMethod 'hiredman.clojurebot/bot}))
10:15	clojurebot	Chousuke: Huh?
10:15	Chousuke	garr
10:16	liwp	,(this-is-a-test '0)
10:16	clojurebot	DENIED
10:17	liwp	,(+ 1 1)
10:17	clojurebot	2
10:17	Chousuke	,(var-set #'hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms #{'intern 'eval 'def 'catch 'load-string 'load-reader 'clojure.core/addMethod 'hiredman.clojurebot/bot})
10:17	clojurebot	Chousuke: excusez-moi
10:18	liwp	I've never looked at the bot source, but it looks like that's not ever getting to the evaluator
10:19	Chousuke	fortunately the channel is rather quiet at the moment :P
10:19	Chousuke	other than this bot-trickery
10:22	Chousuke	,(var-set #'hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms '#{intern eval def catch load-string load-reader clojure.core/addMethod hiredman.clojurebot/bot})
10:22	clojurebot	Chousuke: Pardon?
10:22	Chousuke	:(
10:22	liwp	,(var-set + +)
10:22	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.core$_PLUS___4443 cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Var
10:23	liwp	,(var-set #'+ #'+)
10:23	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Can't change/establish root binding of: + with set
10:23	Chousuke	I wonder if the set thing is confusing it.
10:23	liwp	good
10:23	liwp	try using set
10:23	Chousuke	,(alter-var-root #'hiredman.sandbox/*bad-forms conj 'catch)
10:23	clojurebot	Chousuke: Titim gan éirí ort.
10:24	Chousuke	,(alter-var-root #'hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms conj 'catch)
10:24	clojurebot	Chousuke: Huh?
10:24	liwp	I don't think it likes you
10:24	Chousuke	heh
10:24	rsynnott	Why does the bot speak Irish?
10:25	liwp	rsynnott: it's a polyglot, it speaks french as well
10:25	Chousuke	,#=(alter-var-root #=(var hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms) conj catch)
10:25	clojurebot	Chousuke: Titim gan éirí ort.
10:25	liwp	Chousuke: since you're messing with the both, you might as well add finnish error messages
10:25	Chousuke	,#'hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms
10:25	clojurebot	#'hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms
10:26	rsynnott	Particularly unusual language for evil robots, though :)
10:26	Chousuke	??? I'm confused
10:26	liwp	Chousuke: aren't you getting the args in the wrong order with conj here, i.e. it'll become (conj foo #{})
10:26	Chousuke	liwp: it's an altering function so it'll pass the thing to be altered as the first parameter
10:26	liwp	ok
10:26	Chousuke	and any user-supplied args after that
10:27	Chousuke	but it seems it's even more broken now.
10:27	liwp	,(#'hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms 'this-is-a-test)
10:27	clojurebot	DENIED
10:28	liwp	,this-is-a-test
10:28	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: this-is-a-test in this context
10:28	liwp	,'this-is-a-test
10:28	clojurebot	this-is-a-test
10:28	liwp	duh
10:35	Chousuke	ah, now I know why it doesn't like me
10:35	Chousuke	,catch
10:35	clojurebot	Chousuke: It's greek to me.
10:36	Chousuke	,(alter-var-root #'hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms (constantly #{'intern 'eval 'def 'load-string 'load-reader 'clojure.core/addMethod}))
10:36	clojurebot	#{intern load-reader load-string clojure.core/addMethod eval def}
10:36	Chousuke	~def alter-var-root
10:37	Chousuke	,(alter-var-root #'hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms conj 'alterRoot
10:37	clojurebot	EOF while reading
10:37	Chousuke	,(alter-var-root #'hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms conj 'alterRoot)
10:37	clojurebot	#{alterRoot intern load-reader load-string clojure.core/addMethod eval def}
10:37	Chousuke	,(alter-var-root #'hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms conj 'alter-var-root)
10:37	clojurebot	#{alterRoot intern load-reader load-string clojure.core/addMethod eval alter-var-root def}
10:37	Chousuke	,(alter-var-root #'hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms conj :test)
10:37	clojurebot	DENIED
10:37	Chousuke	,(.alterRoot #'hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms conj :test)
10:37	clojurebot	DENIED
10:38	Chousuke	excellent
10:42	avital	Hello Chous{er,uke} and friends. It seems that pr is supposed to print a value in the exact way the reader can read it. But (pr '(1)) prints (1) instead of '(1). Is this a bug?
10:42	avital	,(pr '(1))
10:42	clojurebot	(1)
10:44	Chousuke	avital: it's not a bug. pr is a function, so its parameter is evaluated
10:44	Chousuke	and if you read "(1)", you indeed get '(1)
10:44	Chousuke	,(read-string "(1)"
10:44	clojurebot	EOF while reading
10:44	Chousuke	,(read-string "(1)")
10:44	clojurebot	(1)
10:45	Chousuke	,(read-string "'(1)")
10:45	clojurebot	(quote (1))
10:54	liwp	Chousuke: good job with the bot
10:55	Chousuke	yes. first I break it and then I fix it :P
10:55	Chousuke	all publicly on IRC
10:55	Fossi	that's the spirit
10:55	liwp	you should've PM'd it
10:55	liwp	in the privacy of your own irc client
10:56	Chousuke	I don't know if it listens to PMs :/
10:56	Fossi	it does
10:56	liwp	it does
10:56	Fossi	it's more fun in public though :D
10:56	liwp	so what was wrong with (alter-var-root #'hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms conj 'catch)?
10:57	Chousuke	liwp: it turned out that an earlier function tests whether the message string contains "catch". :P
10:57	liwp	auts
11:35	adityo	ola guys!
11:36	adityo	how do i remove a key/value pair from a map ..say {"lisp" "mcarthy", "Clojure" "Hickey"} and i want to remove lisp/mcarthy
11:37	stuartsierra	(dissoc the-map "lisp")
11:39	adityo	cool, was thinking of writing somethings in the line of remove-if in CL
11:41	adityo	thanks
11:42	stuartsierra	np
11:52	chouser	hiredman: thanks for mentioning "Evolution of Lisp". It's fascinating.
11:52	chouser	"This situation of unexpected performance is prevalent with Lisp."
12:09	ambient	one thing that really bothers me about functional programming and immutability is the performance issue
12:10	ambient	but that's not such a huge thing because of the versatility. python is about 60 times slower than C. people (and I) still use it because it gets things done a lot faster
12:12	stuartsierra	With any language, you write the code you want, then optimize a few critical sections, often by rewriting in another language. Clojure->Java, Java->C, C->assembly
12:14	ambient	i'd rather just use one language :/ but perhaps that's a pipe dream if i want both dynamicality(?) and performance
12:14	chouser	ambient: keep the dream alive
12:15	stuartsierra	Write a better compiler. Or a better VM.
12:15	stuartsierra	It happens, just slowly. Almost no one writes assembly any more; C compilers are good enough.
12:16	stuartsierra	Java is getting there.
12:16	chouser	falling back to mutable structures (like arrays) and sufficient use of macros (and other possible features like reify) we can hope to get very close to java speed while retaining many of clojure's abstractions, even in the small pieces of code where performance is most critical.
12:46	tmountain	as far as VM are concerned, hotspot is actually one of the best IMO
12:54	konr	Isn't there a version of (binding) that creates the variables, if they don't exist?
12:54	technomancy	(doc with-local-vars)
12:55	Chousuke	I haven't found much use for local vars :/
12:56	technomancy	yeah, it seems like the wrong answer
12:57	stuartsierra	konr: the variables still have to be (declare ...)'d if you want to use them in other functions.
13:03	technomancy	stuartsierra: I'm looking at your swank-clojure changes
13:03	technomancy	I'm not really understanding the clojure-maven-plugin
13:03	technomancy	why does it take eleven Java classes just to perform clojure compilation?
13:04	stuartsierra	It doesn't.
13:04	stuartsierra	clojure-maven-plugin does a bunch of different things -- compile source, compile tests, run main, run tests, run repl, run swank, generate docs...
13:05	stuartsierra	Each "goal" in Maven-speak needs its own class
13:06	technomancy	ok, that's more than I've been using maven for so far.
13:06	stuartsierra	Most of them are small classes that call the methods in AbstractClojureCompilerMojo
13:07	technomancy	it would be nice if this stuff didn't have to be written in Java, but I've had a nasty time trying to gen-class maven stuff due to the wackiness in its classpath
13:08	technomancy	*class loader
13:08	stuartsierra	It could be done, but then clojure-maven-plugin would have a dependency on Clojure, which is almost circular.
13:09	stuartsierra	Mostly the plugin just invokes clojure.main with different arguments.
13:09	technomancy	as long as I'm not the one writing / reading it
13:09	technomancy	can't you do that from the pom though?
13:09	stuartsierra	technomancy: not really, and not conveniently.
13:09	technomancy	we do that at work; seems a lot simpler
13:09	technomancy	for AOT and test running
13:10	stuartsierra	The point of Maven plugins is to keep the POM simple and declarative, not full of the procedural-type scripting one does with Ant.
13:11	technomancy	ok, I'll try this out
13:11	stuartsierra	The plugin code really isn't that bad; I was able to add the SWANK stuff without knowing much about Maven internals.
13:11	technomancy	cool
13:11	technomancy	did you say something about wanting to start a repo for OSS clojure projects?
13:12	stuartsierra	It was a half-formed idea to set up a Maven repo and encourage Clojure library developers to use it.
13:12	technomancy	sounds good to me
13:12	stuartsierra	First I think we need to get swank-clojure and clojure-maven-plugin 1.1 into central.
13:13	technomancy	once clojure 1.1 is out?
13:13	stuartsierra	Not necessarily.
13:13	stuartsierra	Then we need a Maven archetype for new Clojure projects, and get THAT into central.
13:13	technomancy	you'd need a VPS or something to allow each contributor to have a user account, right?
13:13	technomancy	so they can push out releases
13:14	stuartsierra	Dunno; I'm not that familiar with Maven deployment setups.
13:15	technomancy	I guess you could accept pubkeys from contributors all hooked up to the same user as long as you trust them
13:15	stuartsierra	Basically, I want to lower the barrier to creating & releasing Maven-enabled Clojure libraries, so that everyone does it.
13:15	technomancy	yes
13:16	stuartsierra	So my plan of attack is 1. SWANK, 2. plugin, 3. archetype, 4. repository.
13:19	technomancy	I feel a little uneasy that jochu has a "start server refactoring" commit on the master branch with no further commits referencing it. =\
13:19	technomancy	yeesh; the centralized repos are slow.
13:20	stuartsierra	you might want to ask jochu about that; maybe he has an older version that's stable enough for a 1.0
13:21	konr	Isn't it awesome? Clojure is even more concise than CL: http://scorciapino.com/pub/fotos/clj-vs-cl.png
13:23	stuartsierra	On a related note, does the swank server target a particular version of SLIME? It would be nice to have that documented somewhere.
13:23	technomancy	stuartsierra: slime doesn't really have versions
13:23	technomancy	well... no, it has 1.0, and that's it
13:23	technomancy	I think they've decided they don't do "releases"
13:24	stuartsierra	charming
13:24	technomancy	basically I have a fork of slime, and I set M-x clojure-install to use my fork, and I only update it when I've confirmed it works.
13:25	stuartsierra	Ok. What if SLIME were packaged with swank-clojure?
13:25	technomancy	that's actually not a bad idea
13:25	technomancy	since it's just a single .el file
13:25	technomancy	actually, that's a great idea
13:26	technomancy	most of the code in slime is CL that's irrelevant anyway
13:26	technomancy	I was thinking about asking if they wanted to merge swank-clojure into slime, but I don't think that would ever happen
13:26	technomancy	why not go the other way...
13:27	Raynes	technomancy's brain is about to explode.
13:27	stuartsierra	Emacs couldn't load the .el code from a Maven JAR, but you could still tell Clojure users to get SLIME from the swank-clojure zip/tar distribution.
13:28	technomancy	stuartsierra: well swank-clojure already bundles a .el file anyway
13:28	stuartsierra	Right.
13:28	stuartsierra	So it should be easy enough.
13:29	technomancy	clojure-maven-plugin failed after twenty minutes of downloading asking for a gpg passphrase. =\
13:29	stuartsierra	Hit enter.
13:29	technomancy	right; that made it fail
13:29	stuartsierra	weird, haven't had that problem
13:29	technomancy	gpg: no default secret key: secret key not available
13:30	technomancy	I guess I need to generate one
13:30	technomancy	I just want to install it though. =\
13:30	technomancy	there we go
13:30	technomancy	this is why we need this in a centralized repo somewhere
13:31	stuartsierra	Or comment out the key-signing stuff in the clojure-maven-plugin POM
13:31	stuartsierra	I think you only need that to publish releases in central.
13:32	technomancy	bug filed
13:34	technomancy	stuartsierra: is there a way to see what goals are defined?
13:34	technomancy	like rake -T ?
13:36	stuartsierra	For a single plugin, yes: "mvn help:describe"
13:36	stuartsierra	For all plugins, no.
13:36	stuartsierra	mvn help:describe -DgroupId=com.theoryinpractise -DartifactId=clojure-maven-plugin -Dversion=1.1-SNAPSHOT
13:36	sproingie	what a horrible horrible ui
13:36	sproingie	in a sane world that might be "mvn-help -p clojure"
13:37	technomancy	don't forget the -o "don't download the Internet again" argument. =\
13:38	sproingie	worst thing it would do is download the plugin itself which tends to be small
13:38	stuartsierra	It never downloads the internet again.
13:40	technomancy	hmm... I can't get any of these goals to run
13:40	sproingie	might have to be mvn-help -g com.theoryinpractise -p clojure
13:40	technomancy	I'll have to come back to this later
13:40	stuartsierra	ok
13:40	sproingie	but maven seems to have some way of figuring out groupIds of plugins automagically
13:41	sproingie	probably some kind of index on <x>-maven-plugin
13:41	stuartsierra	if they're built-in or defined in the <plugins> section of your current project, it's just "mvn help:describe -Dcmd=clojure:..."
13:41	stuartsierra	sproingie: that's exactly what it does
13:42	LauJensen	stuartsierra, did you sort out file posting in your http agent yet ?
13:42	stuartsierra	no
13:42	stuartsierra	I seriously doubt I'm going to.
13:42	LauJensen	oh, why the change of heart ?
13:43	stuartsierra	I looked at what it entails. There's Base64 encoding, MIME headers, etc.
13:43	stuartsierra	The Apache HTTP library handles that well already. I'm not going to reimplement it.
13:43	LauJensen	Softened your knees a little bit, did it? :)
13:43	stuartsierra	exactly.
13:43	LauJensen	It's fine, apache libs work without problems anyway
13:44	stuartsierra	maybe someday I'll rewrite HTTP agent based on Apache's client, but I've got bigger fish to fry right now.
13:45	LauJensen	Alright
13:45	technomancy	that'd have to wait till Dependencies Work anyway
13:45	stuartsierra	truth, hence my recent enthusiasm for Maven
13:46	LauJensen	Are you guys working on something with Maven ?
13:49	stuartsierra	(1:16:42 PM) stuartsierra: Basically, I want to lower the barrier to creating & releasing Maven-enabled Clojure libraries, so that everyone does it.
13:49	stuartsierra	(1:16:47 PM) technomancy: yes
13:49	stuartsierra	(1:17:37 PM) stuartsierra: So my plan of attack is 1. SWANK, 2. plugin, 3. archetype, 4. repository.
13:53	ambient	reading through clojure.core this sentence really took a long time to parse :P "Evaluates exprs one at a time, from left to right. If a form returns a logical true value, or returns that value and doesn't evaluate any of the other expressions, otherwise it returns the value of the last expression. (or) returns nil."
13:55	hircus	I think parenthesizing or quoting the first "or" would help readability a lot
13:57	LauJensen	stuartsierra, thanks, I'm awake now
13:57	LauJensen	Let me know when you have something we should try out
13:58	stuartsierra	You can try the latest from github: http://github.com/jochu/swank-clojure and http://github.com/talios/clojure-maven-plugin
14:01	LauJensen	I'll have a look
14:04	LauJensen	stuartsierra, looks like you're filling a void in clojure-land, weee :)
14:04	liwp`	~library
14:04	stuartsierra	falling into the void, more like
14:05	liwp`	huh, where's clojurebot? did hiredman take it off-line for patching?
14:27	LauJensen	liwp, yea he's probably in the shop :) Chousuke messed him up a little bit
14:28	LauJensen	liwp or actually looking through my log, its possible he just didn't recover from the ircd's restart
14:28	Chousuke	LauJensen: clojurebot already returned ;P
14:29	Chousuke	though now I have to fix him again
14:29	LauJensen	Chousuke, so you're saying, check the user list before analyzing logs? :)
14:29	hiredman	I did nae restart it, just had it reconnect and rejoin
14:29	Chousuke	or hm, I suppose the process itself survivved.
14:30	Chousuke	,(alter-var-root error)
14:30	clojurebot	DENIED
14:30	Chousuke	-v
14:40	dnolen	cgrand: been thinking a little bit about enlive again, specifically nesting template/snippets. You said this would be slow. Would it make sense to cache the fast representation to disk?
14:40	cgrand	dnolen: I saw you forked it again :-)
14:41	cgrand	I don't remember what was your use case.
14:42	dnolen	just dynamically selecting sub templates from a template.
14:42	dnolen	template inheritance is what I wanted i realize.
14:46	dnolen	cgrand: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/4469f364b0b7c09f
14:46	dnolen	this was your response
14:48	cgrand	dnolen: thx
14:51	cgrand	there are two things that makes a dynamic snippet like the one in your sample code slow: parsing and pre-serializing. Parsing overhead is easily worked around by loading your html once.
14:51	dnolen	cgrand: does it make sense to cache the parsed content to disk?
14:53	cgrand	dnolen: I don't think
14:53	wooby	hello, would anyone happen to know why this gives me 'malformed member expression?' (.. os write (to-byte-array file) 0 (.. file length))
14:53	dnolen	cgrand: k, what do you mean by pre-serializing?
14:56	liwp`	wooby: (..file lenght) seems broken to me
14:56	liwp`	you should avoid the .. forms if you can
14:56	liwp`	use -> instead
14:56	wooby	ah, does that do the same thing?
14:57	liwp`	in effect yes
14:57	liwp`	so something like (-> os write (to-byte-array...))
14:57	kotarak	But it also allows for clojure functions and macros... (-> x .methodCall clj-fun (a-macro with other args))
14:58	cgrand	dnole; once a html tree is loaded, each node is annotated with its serialization. Hence when Enlive serilaizes the output of a transformation, if a node is untouched by the transformation it can skip walking it and directly emits the cached serialization.
14:58	cgrand	dnolen: that's for you ^^
14:58	wooby	i see... thank you
14:58	liwp`	wooby: the 0 in the middle of your .. form looks suspect as well
14:59	wooby	liwp: what i'm trying to do is write a file's contents to a socket's output stream
14:59	liwp`	are you trying to call write on os and everything else is just a set of arguments to the write call?
14:59	wooby	it's entirely possible i'm going about it entirely the wrong way
14:59	wooby	correct
14:59	dnolen	cgrand: i see. so how would you handle template inheritance using Enlive? :)
15:00	liwp`	wooby: you should have something like (.write os <args>)
15:00	wooby	http://gist.github.com/203318 that's the whole thing so far... forgive the style, i'm sure it sucks
15:00	wooby	but i appreciate any and all feedback
15:00	liwp`	let's see: (.write os (to-byte-array file) 0 (.length file))
15:00	liwp`	try that
15:00	cgrand	dnolen: could you be more specific on what you call template inheritance?
15:01	liwp`	wooby: so whenever you want to call a method you should use (.method object)
15:01	liwp`	except for static methods it would be (Class/method ...)
15:02	liwp`	wooby: I see a lot of .. forms in your code and most of them are wrong, e.g. (.. sock close) should be (.close sock)
15:02	cgrand	but this annotation phase can be moved out of snippet* and put into html-resource, this would make dynamic snippets lighter
15:02	liwp`	wooby: I guess the .. form works as well, but it's not idiomatic
15:02	wooby	ok thanks, it's what i'm aiming for
15:02	wooby	just going off the book so far
15:03	ambient	it looks like a lot of .java in clojure/src/jvm is machine generated?
15:03	liwp`	ambient: nope
15:03	ambient	huh, weird
15:03	liwp`	or possibly some of the invoke defs
15:04	dnolen	cgrand: for example, 3 column layout. that's one template. then I have a nav template. In one app I'd like to put this in column 1 in the base 3 column template. Nav template supports showing different widgets. Each widget is itself a template.
15:05	liwp`	wooby: in the past people used to write (.. my-obj meth1 meth2 meth3), (. my-obj method) and (new Foo). These days the fashion is to write (-> my-obj m1 m2 m3) (.method my-obj) and (Foo.) instead
15:06	cgrand	dnolen: have to go, can we continue by mail? Can't you achieve what you describe by function composition?
15:06	liwp`	wooby: the (.. os...) form seems to be the only broken bit in the gist (haven't tried running it)
15:06	wooby	liwp: got it, thank you
15:06	kotarak	cgrand, dnolen: would keep also informed?
15:06	kotarak	I'm also interested in this!
15:07	wooby	liwp: thanks, i managed to fix it thanks to your help, now working on another bug
15:07	Chousuke	the .. form is still fine sometimes though.
15:07	dnolen	cgrand: you're probably right, I've just started thinking about this again.
15:07	Chousuke	you can't access statics through -> IIRC.
15:07	Chousuke	or hm
15:07	Chousuke	,(-> Math .PI)
15:07	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: PI for class java.lang.Class
15:07	Chousuke	right.
15:07	kotarak	Chousuke: ,(-> Math/PI)
15:07	kotarak	,(-> Math/PI)
15:07	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$--GT-
15:08	kotarak	,(-> Math/PI identity)
15:08	clojurebot	3.141592653589793
15:08	Chousuke	kotarak: yeah, but that won't work if it's nested somehow... on second thought, is that even possible? :P
15:08	kotarak	nested?
15:08	Chousuke	never mind. I don't think it's possible :)
15:09	kotarak	I don't understand the nested.
15:09	raek	my first library: http://github.com/raek/clojure-sandbox/blob/master/src/com/github/raek/xml_with_xmlns.clj
15:09	Chousuke	I mean (-> foo .bar .static ...)
15:09	raek	extending clojure.xml with xml namespaces
15:09	kotarak	Chousuke: You mean .bar returns a class, which you want to use as part in front of the "/"?
15:10	liwp`	Chousuke: shouldn't that just work, i.e. can't you just call the static method on the instance rather then the class?
15:10	Chousuke	liwp`: yeah, I guess you can
15:11	raek	{:tag :foo:bar :attrs {:xmlns:foo "http://example.com/ns"}} => {:tag :http://example.com/ns/bar :attrs {}}
15:12	kotarak	,(-> "123" Integer/valueOf (.valueOf "567"))
15:12	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: valueOf for class java.lang.Integer
15:15	liwp`	kotarak: so you can't call a static method on an instance...
15:15	chouser	uh
15:15	kotarak	liwp`: It seems like this is not possible, no. Any Java gurus around?
15:15	raek	(anyone here using clojure.xml and/or xml namespaces?)
15:16	crios	in Java you can call a static methond on an instance
15:16	wooby	sweet, this little webserver totally works now... thanks everyone for your help
15:16	wooby	http://gist.github.com/203329
15:17	kotarak	,(.valueOf 5 "123")
15:17	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: valueOf for class java.lang.Integer
15:17	kotarak	hmmm
15:17	liwp`	kotarak: in java you're definitely allowed to write Foo f = new Foo(); f.staticMethod();
15:17	liwp`	it's not good style, but it's allowed
15:17	kotarak	I believe you. But it obviously doesn't work in Clojure.
15:17	liwp`	yep
15:19	mgarriss	(n00b warning) why does this: http://pastie.org/644262 produce this error: "java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: recur arg for primitive local: x must be matching primitive"
15:21	kotarak	mgarriss: Math/pow is double, while (/ x y) is maybe integer? (Just guessing)
15:22	chouser	pow returns a primitive double. / will only return a primitive double if both x and y are also
15:23	chouser	So (double (/ x y)) or (/ (double x) (double y))
15:23	kotarak	The code is (/ x 10). So maybe (/ x 10.0)?
15:23	raek	anyway, if you are interested in taking a look at a newbie's code: http://github.com/raek/clojure-sandbox/blob/master/src/com/github/raek/xml_with_xmlns.clj
15:24	raek	all kinds of comments are welcomed
15:25	mgarriss	hmm, the (/ x 10.0) didn't work
15:25	kotarak	mgarriss: try chouser's tip
15:26	mgarriss	that was it!
15:26	Chousuke	(/ x (double 10)) should be enough, since x is already double
15:26	mgarriss	thx all
15:26	chouser	Chousuke: yep, hadn't read the paste yet. :-{
15:26	chouser	er, :-P
15:29	mgarriss	i guess i'm not clear as to why i needed to do that
15:30	liwp`	,(class (/ 10 2))
15:30	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
15:30	liwp`	,(class (/ 10 2.0))
15:30	clojurebot	java.lang.Double
15:30	chouser	mgarriss: when you create a local (via let or loop), if the value assigned to it will be a primitive, the local itself will be a primitive.
15:30	mgarriss	but shouldn't have x already been a double?
15:30	chouser	yes, x was indeed a primitive double.
15:31	chouser	so the problem was the recur, where you were trying to assign the result of (/ x 10) back to x
15:32	chouser	numeric literals in Clojure are boxed, so / sees a primitive double (x) and a instance of Integer (10)
15:32	mgarriss	boxed?
15:32	chouser	that causes / to compile to a form that would return a Number
15:33	chouser	boxed means non-primitive -- an instance of a Class that extends Object vs. a primitive which isn't an instance of any class type, it's a special built-in Java primitive.
15:34	mgarriss	this is all in an attempt to learn some more clojure and to prove this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaprekar_constant
15:35	mgarriss	i love clojure already, ruby is paying the bills but driving me nuts
15:37	crios	a "boxed" object lives in the "heap" memory, and it is garbage collected. A primitive datum lives in the stack
15:37	hoeck1	mgarriss: mhh, strange, it disappears when wrapping the first recur form in a double: (recur (double (/ x 10)) ....)
15:38	crios	and it is not collected
15:38	chouser	so (double (/ x 10)) or (/ x (double 10)) should work.
15:39	mgarriss	chouser: i used the former
15:39	chouser	you can experiment with repl-utils/expression-info to see details about the return types including (primitive or not) of expressions.
15:39	chouser	mgarriss: the latter probably has slightly better performance, if that matters.
15:39	mgarriss	it does, i was just about to ask about that
15:40	chouser	(double (/ x 10)) will box the x, do the math, return a Double (boxed), and then unbox it to a double
15:41	chouser	(/ x (double 10)) will use an unboxed 10, do primitive math on it and use the result directly.
15:41	mgarriss	new version (i also had to subtract 1 from number of digits): http://pastie.org/644313
15:41	Chousuke	I think (dec x) is more idiomatic than (- x 1)
15:42	mgarriss	good call
15:42	mgarriss	is dec more efficient then (- x 1) ?
15:42	mgarriss	i imagine it is
15:43	chouser	probably.
15:43	Chousuke	~def dec
15:43	mgarriss	it's certainly easier to read
15:43	chouser	you should test any performance claims, as the JVM can do unexpected magic (or fail to perform expected magic)
15:43	Chousuke	well, apparently it uses some java magic... so maybe
15:44	chouser	but having said that, it looks like (double 10) may be unboxing that Integer every time.
15:45	chouser	you might try (def digits (let [ten (double 10)] (fn [number] ... (/ x ten) ...)))
15:46	crios	so the unbox occurs just one time?
15:48	chouser	right. the closure stored in digits would then close over the primitive 'ten' which would be used in the loop. Surely the JVM can perform magic on that. :-)
15:48	chouser	but again, you'd have to test on a fully warmed-up JVM to be sure
15:49	spuz	I'm having a bit of a weird problem with a method on a class not being found. Is there a way to enumerate all of the instance and static methods on a class from clojure?
15:49	herdrick	Hi. I'm wanting to use union and intersection for Maps (hashes).
15:50	chouser	spuz: try clojure.contrib.repl-utils/show
15:50	technomancy	spuz: in slime it's C-c I
15:50	herdrick	It looks like I can use clojure.set.project to make something that works like this but it's ugly
15:50	technomancy	or use repl-utils
15:50	herdrick	Like this:
15:50	herdrick	(project [map1 map2] (intersection (set (keys map1)) (set (keys map2))))
15:50	mgarriss	ugh, now i need an undigits that undoes digits
15:53	hiredman	I was just reading a pdf that discussed the chaotic nature of performance on today's platforms
15:56	crios	maybe too many layers
15:57	hiredman	well, you get chaotic (extremely sensitive to initial conditions) performance behaviour from cpus even, but I'm sure the jvm's optimizing (or not) doesn't help
15:58	herdrick	part of the problem is that what I want isn't really just an intersection of the keys of the maps,
15:59	herdrick	but rather new maps of a subset of each original map
15:59	clojurebot	new Class(x) is (Class. x)
16:01	herdrick	sorry: new maps, each a subset of one of the original maps,
16:01	herdrick	using the keys found in both
16:04	crios	cloning the values of those keys?
16:06	kotarak	herdrick: this are probably not well-defined operations. What happens in this case: (hypothetical-map-union {:a 2 :b 3} {:b 4 :c 5})?
16:07	mgarriss	undigits was much easier: (defn undigits [numbers] (reduce + (map #(* %2 %) powers-of-10 (reverse numbers))))
16:08	chouser	could use * instead of #(* %2 %)
16:08	kotarak	herdrick: union is merge, btw. intersection can probably be done with select-keys.
16:08	herdrick	kotarak: sorry, i think my irc client is doing something funny with your code. What's the second key of your second Map?
16:09	kotarak	herdrick: colon c (or (keyword "c"))
16:09	kotarak	,(merge {:a 2 :b 3} {:b 4 :c 5})
16:09	clojurebot	{:c 5, :a 2, :b 4}
16:09	herdrick	Also, yes, map-union would need to be like merge or merge-into
16:09	kotarak	,(select-keys {:a 2 :b 3} [:b])
16:09	clojurebot	{:b 3}
16:10	kotarak	(where [:b] is the intersection of the keys of the two maps)
16:11	kotarak	,(let [m1 {:a 2 :b 3} m2 {:b 3 :c 4}] (select-keys m1 (clojure.set/intersection (set (keys m1)) (set (keys m2)))))
16:11	clojurebot	{:b 3}
16:12	mgarriss	chouser: good call, not sure what i was thinking there
16:14	herdrick	kotarak: but you are only preserving the values for m1 there
16:15	herdrick	kotarak: i want both
16:15	crios	,(class (seq []))
16:15	clojurebot	nil
16:15	kotarak	herdrick: that's where the "not well-defined" comes into play.
16:15	herdrick	kotarak: the code I pasted in above does that
16:15	crios	Why is it nil? Shouldnt'it be an empty sequence?
16:15	herdrick	here it is again:
16:15	herdrick	(project [map1 map2] (intersection (set (keys map1)) (set (keys map2))))
16:15	chouser	crios: seq on an empty collection returns nil
16:15	hiredman	crios: what does (seq []) return?
16:16	herdrick	kotarak: well, it only takes a careful definition... :)
16:16	herdrick	but thanks,
16:16	kotarak	herdrick: then it's not "intersection" of maps
16:16	kotarak	herdrick: your code must return something different
16:16	herdrick	right, it returns two maps
16:16	crios	seq [] returns null, mm thank you
16:17	herdrick	so it isn't really an intersection
16:17	herdrick	it
16:17	herdrick	it's something else
16:17	herdrick	BTW I just used clojure.set/project because it seems to do what I wanted but I don't really understand the short description of it
16:18	kotarak	,(let [m1 {:a 2 :b 3} m2 {:b 3 4} intersected-keys (clojure.set/intersection (set (keys m1)) (set (keys m2)))] (vector (select-keys m1 intersected-keys) (select-keys m2 intersected-keys)))
16:18	clojurebot	3
16:19	kotarak	,(let [m1 {:a 2 :b 3} m2 {:b 3 :d 4} intersected-keys (clojure.set/intersection (set (keys m1)) (set (keys m2)))] (vector (select-keys m1 intersected-keys) (select-keys m2 intersected-keys)))
16:19	clojurebot	[{:b 3} {:b 3}]
16:22	herdrick	,(let [m1 {:a 1 :b 2} m2 {:b 3 :c 4}] (clojure.set/project [m1 m2] (clojure.set/intersection (set (keys m1)) (set (keys m2)))))
16:22	clojurebot	#{{:b 2} {:b 3}}
16:22	herdrick	kotarak: that's the way i was doing it
16:23	kotarak	herdrick: well, ... when it works. :) It's shorter.
16:23	herdrick	kotarak: but your way is possibly superior
16:23	herdrick	kotarak: thanks for the help
16:23	kotarak	herdrick: maybe, maybe not. But it's good to know select-keys :)
16:24	herdrick	kotarak: it sounds like you know more about sets in Clojure than me. Can you tell me about clojure.set/project ?
16:24	herdrick	I don't get what xrel is in the docs
16:24	kotarak	herdrick: oehm... actually never used it :P
16:24	kotarak	Let's see.
16:24	kotarak	(doc clojure.set/project)
16:24	clojurebot	"([xrel ks]); Returns a rel of the elements of xrel with only the keys in ks"
16:24	herdrick	kotarak: me neither until now
16:25	kotarak	Just watching Joshua Bloch's "How to Design a Good API and Why it matters": don't use cryptic abreviations....
16:26	herdrick	kotarak: indeed
16:28	kotarak	Well. It simply maps select-keys over the xrel part.
16:28	kotarak	And turns the result again into set. (Which might not be what you want.)
16:28	kotarak	,(let [m1 {:a 1 :b 2} m2 {:b 2 :d 4}] (clojure.set/project [m1 m2] (clojure.set/intersection (set (keys m1)) (set (keys m2)))))
16:28	clojurebot	#{{:b 2}}
16:28	herdrick	kotarak: yeah, except for the "turns the result again into set" part
16:29	herdrick	kotarak: that breaks my code when the two new maps are the same
16:29	kotarak	exactly
16:29	herdrick	kotarak: exactlt!
16:29	herdrick	sorry, exactly!
16:29	herdrick	lol
16:29	herdrick	kotarak: i'm going with your version
16:29	herdrick	kotarak:thanks
16:30	kotarak	herdrick: np
16:37	mgarriss	how do i combine 2 vectors into one?
16:38	chouser	,(into [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
16:38	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 6]
16:38	mgarriss	thx
16:39	hircus	,(reduce conj [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
16:39	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 6]
16:39	mgarriss	how do i create a vector of some given size containing all zeroes?
16:39	clojurebot	with style and grace
16:40	chouser	into should use transients while reduce conj I think would not.
16:40	mgarriss	i don't really understand the reduce method
16:40	chouser	,(vec (repeat 12 0))
16:40	clojurebot	[0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0]
16:41	hircus	for each element in the second sequence, it applies conj to the first sequence and that element, and then repeats with the resulting sequence and the rest of the second sequence
16:41	hircus	,(doc reduce)
16:41	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f val coll]); f should be a function of 2 arguments. If val is not supplied, returns the result of applying f to the first 2 items in coll, then applying f to that result and the 3rd item, etc. If coll contains no items, f must accept no arguments as well, and reduce returns the result of calling f with no arguments. If coll has only 1 item, it is returned and f is not called. If val is supplied, returns the r
16:42	mgarriss	i see, very cool
16:42	hircus	mgarriss: this is probably a more obvious example: ,(reduce * [1 2 3])
16:42	hircus	,(reduce * [1 2 3])
16:42	clojurebot	6
16:42	kotarak	hilarious : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAb7hSCtvGw#46m0s
16:43	kotarak	rather http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAb7hSCtvGw#t=46m0s
16:43	hiredman	clojurebot: botsnack
16:43	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
16:44	hircus	or defining factorial this way
16:44	hircus	,(reduce * (take 5 (iterate inc 1)))
16:44	clojurebot	120
16:49	mgarriss	i can see myself using reduce a lot in the future
17:13	rosejn	What's the best way to look at err while in the repl?
17:14	tomoj	rosejn: I'm not sure that makes sense
17:14	rosejn	hmmm, ok
17:14	ambient	*e
17:14	tomoj	oh, now I get it. been awake too long. :(
17:14	ambient	?
17:14	rosejn	I'm trying to use clojure.contrib.logging
17:14	ambient	(i dont even know what err does)
17:15	tomoj	it's STDERR, no?
17:15	rosejn	It's just like another standard out, but for errors
17:15	ambient	ok
17:15	rosejn	a pipe you can connect to things
17:15	tomoj	you mean the slime repl or a plain old repl?
17:15	rosejn	vimclojure repl
17:16	rosejn	I've inserted (log :debug "my msg here...") messages, but it seems that clojure.contrib.logging is sending stuff to err
17:17	rosejn	it's also not clear how to set the log-level...
17:17	tomoj	I suppose that's vimclojure's business, not clojure's? (the former)
17:17	mgarriss	i need a function that returns any repeating pattern in a vector: (foobar [3 4 19 2 4 2 4 2 4 2]) ==> [2 4]
17:17	mgarriss	or i should say the first repeating pattern found
17:18	lisppaste8	crios pasted "ternary if" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88306
17:19	crios	sure do exits a better way than my "ternary if" in http://paste.lisp.org/display/88306
17:19	crios	*exists
17:19	chouser	crios: you want :else ?
17:20	crios	mmm I think so. but can I put an if inside cond?
17:21	crios	BTW, why (memq 'n '(a b c) ) throw a StackOverflowException?
17:21	hiredman	cond checks for true values
17:22	hiredman	not nil and not false
17:22	chouser	crios: 'rest' always returns a seq, perhaps an empty one
17:22	chouser	you probably want 'next'
17:22	hiredman	:else is not nil and not false, so it can be used as a catch-all there
17:23	technomancy	so... it looks like the use-fixtures function is not really intended for interactive development since it keeps wrapping more and more fixture functions around the test functions rather than being idempotent
17:23	technomancy	I wonder if there's a way to fix that
17:23	chouser	,(some #{'b} '(a b c))
17:23	clojurebot	b
17:23	crios	chouser: mmm ok, I check that
17:23	chouser	crios: is that what you want?
17:24	crios	yes :-(
17:24	technomancy	you could store the fixtures as a set, but then you lose the ability to order it.
17:25	crios	chouser: but also studying this: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-16.html , just for "set the stage"
17:25	crios	[memq example is there, written in Scheme]
17:36	lisppaste8	crios annotated #88306 "goes in StackOverflow" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88306#1
17:37	crios	another try: I'm using next in this implementation, but I get a StackOverflow
17:38	lisppaste8	Chouser annotated #88306 "some other versions" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88306#2
17:40	crios	thank Chouser; I'll study it. But why :else is not documentated here http://clojure.org/API#toc161 ?
17:41	chouser	crios: it's just convention -- any true value will do
17:41	crios	ah ok, it is a keyword which evalutes to true, isn't it?
17:41	chouser	crios: right
17:43	crios	an other question: in your second example, (recur calls memq itself, right?
17:43	chouser	crios: yes
17:43	chouser	but without cosuming a stack frame, so no stack overflow
17:46	crios	it seems that the trick is the (when function:
17:47	chouser	(when x y z) is just (if x (do y z))
17:47	lisppaste8	crios annotated #88306 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88306#3
17:48	crios	I mean, that last implemention doesn't go in StackOverflow
17:48	crios	(thought your is sure better)
17:49	crios	*though
17:52	chouser	(next x) returns nil when x has zero or 1 items left. nil acts as false so we stop looping
17:52	chouser	gotta go.
17:57	crios	so here http://paste.lisp.org/display/88306#1 memq is infinitely called with arguments (item nil) ?
17:58	crios	Using when, the recursive call with (item nil) is not tried
17:58	crios	I think it makes sense
18:08	MetaReilly	Are there current instructions for setting up slime and swank manually (NOT using clojure-install)?
18:09	spaceman_stu	is there a way to iterate over a transient vector? something like (doseq [i (transient [1 2])] i)?
18:09	technomancy	spaceman_stu: I don't know if you're supposed to use transients while they're still transient
18:10	mgarriss	let's say i wanted to use clojure to draw a fractal. is the AWT my best bet here for the actual displaying?
18:10	technomancy	mgarriss: clj-processing is probably the easiest
18:10	spaceman_stu	technomancy: get and nth work. Those are along the same lines, no?
18:11	hiredman	spaceman_stu: you would need to use some kind o reduce operation
18:11	hiredman	of
18:11	spaceman_stu	I don't understand why
18:12	mgarriss	MetaReilly: here is the clojure section of my .emacs, i just started using clojure so it probably has issues but it might help you: http://pastie.org/644604
18:13	MetaReilly	mgarriss: thanks
18:13	hiredman	spaceman_stu: because you are supposed to keep the result of the transient mutation operations
18:13	MetaReilly	mgarriss: i was using the old slime/swank setup from before the new automated install and find the automated setup annoying
18:13	mgarriss	MetaReilly: you'll have to build the swank-clojure jar using maven first
18:14	mgarriss	MetaReilly: me too
18:14	MetaReilly	mgarriss: Thanks
18:14	technomancy	MetaReilly: you could read the source to clojure-install. =)
18:15	MetaReilly	technomancy: I had started to do that and decided that it would be worth asking if somebody had a recipe handy
18:15	hiredman	clojurebot: transient is <reply> Don't bash in place
18:15	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
18:20	mgarriss	technomancy: clj-processing looks perfect, thx for the lead
18:20	clojurebot	technomancy is to blame for all failures
18:21	hiredman	~laugh
18:21	clojurebot	ha ha
18:21	technomancy	clojurebot: maybe so, but hiredman is to blame for all errors
18:21	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
18:21	technomancy	wait, did that just do what I think it did?
18:21	technomancy	clojurebot: hiredman?
18:21	clojurebot	hiredman is lazy
18:22	technomancy	clojurebot: maybe so, but hiredman?
18:22	clojurebot	maybe so, but hiredman is to blame for all errors
18:22	technomancy	clojurebot: forget maybe so, but hiredman
18:22	clojurebot	I forgot maybe so, but hiredman
20:43	herdrick_	l
20:49	enderoute	how do you set a breakpoint in jswat for a running clojure repl? I see all my functions in the "classes" list to the left, i right click and add a breakpoint, but it doesn't seem to stop when i call the function from the repl
23:32	jaiganesh	hi
23:32	jaiganesh	i have a problem
23:33	jaiganesh	i am trying to use lcm function but getting this error
23:33	jaiganesh	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: lcm
23:33	jaiganesh	i have use clojure.contrib.math dont hsi
23:34	jaiganesh	i have included the namespace "use clojure.contrib.math"
23:36	jaiganesh	anyone?
23:37	jaiganesh	hi room
23:37	jaiganesh	i have aproblem
23:37	jaiganesh	i am trying to use lcm function but getting this error
23:37	jaiganesh	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: lcm
23:37	jaiganesh	i have included the namespace "use clojure.contrib.math"
23:43	jaiganesh	hi room
23:48	adityo	hey
23:54	rongenre	Looking for an idiom: I have a bunch of vectors, all equal length. Want to treat them like a table, search, select based upon it. Like in R with dataframes
23:57	arbscht	,(doc filter)
23:57	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); "
23:58	rongenre	well sure. I can filter one vector
23:58	arbscht	,(filter (comp odd? first) [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9] [10 11 12] [13 14 15]])
23:58	clojurebot	([1 2 3] [7 8 9] [13 14 15])
23:58	rongenre	But I want to use it to index the rest.
23:59	somnium	rogenre: something like (filter identity (map #(filter pred vec) bunch-of-vecs)) ?
23:59	rongenre	so it'd take that to [1 3] [4 6] [7 9] [...]