#clojure – 2009-10-07

2009-10-07

00:00	rongenre	somnium: i'd use that to reduce all the vectors?
00:01	arbscht	sorry, I'm not familiar with R dataframes. can you describe the structure?
00:01	rongenre	um. Basically a named set of equal-length vectors
00:01	rongenre	they function a lot like a relational table
00:03	arbscht	can you give an example of what you want to accomplish in clojure?
00:06	rongenre	Say it's account information. User name, password, last login, stuff like that. I want to find everyone who logged in in the last 30 mins.
00:06	somnium	,(filter (fn [x] (some #(> % 7) x)) '([1 3 5] [2 4 6] [3 5 7] [4 6 8]))
00:06	clojurebot	([4 6 8])
00:07	somnium	rongenre: some composition of filters and preds should get you where you want
00:08	rongenre	Is there a way.. if I get the indexes of values in one vector to extract the values in all the other vectors? Like nth which takes a vector of indices as an argument
00:09	rongenre	Or alternately a boolean vector which I can apply to another one of the same side and pull out those which are true. That's kind of like a filter.
00:09	somnium	sure
00:11	somnium	,(map (fn [[x y z]] [x z]) '([1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]))
00:11	clojurebot	([1 3] [4 6] [7 9])
00:12	rongenre	Gotcha. So if I could make [x z] take a vector of booleans I'd be good.
00:12	somnium	I'm sure there's more than one way
00:12	rongenre	That's helpful though, thanks
00:12	arbscht	rongenre: if you described your actual problem, we might be able to give an idiomatic solution :)
00:13	clojurebot	"There is no problem in computer programming which cannot be solved by an added level of indirection." -- Dr Maurice Wilkes
00:13	rongenre	Let me go make it up..
00:17	slashus2	,(mapcat vals (keys (clojure.set/index #{[1 2 3] [4 5 6]} [0 1])))
00:17	clojurebot	(5 4 2 1)
00:18	slashus2	rongenre: Something like that?
00:19	rongenre	say I have this: (def db {:c1 (vector (range 10)) :c2 (map (fn [x] (rand)) (range 10))})
00:20	rongenre	I want to find the c1 values where c2 < 0.2
00:20	rongenre	sorry, (vec (range 10))
00:24	rongenre	slashus2: does that make sense?
00:26	somnium	, (filter (fn [[x y]] (< y 0.2)) [[:a 0.1] [:b 0.2]])
00:26	clojurebot	([:a 0.1])
00:26	slashus2	,(filter #(if (< (second %) 0.2) [(first %) (second %)]) (apply zipmap (vals {:c1 (vec (range 10)) :c2 (map (fn [x] (rand)) (vec (range 10)))})))
00:27	clojurebot	()
00:27	slashus2	or that...
00:27	somnium	(map (fn [[x y]] x) '([:a 0.1]))
00:28	somnium	if you split it out into separate transformations and filters
00:28	somnium	it should compose in a very understandable way
00:28	slashus2	The zipmap thing works I suppose.
00:29	slashus2	So as a combination of our solutions..
00:29	slashus2	,(filter (fn [[x y]] (< y 0.2)) (apply zipmap (vals {:c1 (vec (range 10)) :c2 (map (fn [x] (rand)) (vec (range 10)))})))
00:29	clojurebot	([3 0.08506635579071331] [6 0.03744368136130927] [9 0.05586704315213442])
00:30	rongenre	nice. Let me look at that more.
00:34	konr	hmmm, I have two functions defined, (defn foo [] 1) and (defn bar [] (foo)), but if I declare bar before foo, evaluating the file will raise an exception. Is this a way around this?
00:35	somnium	konr: put them in the right order?
00:35	konr	somnium: well, besides that :P
00:39	slashus2	declare?
00:40	slashus2	(declare foo)
00:41	konr	hmm, this will work! Thanks!
00:42	slashus2	You are welcome.
00:52	Makoryu	,(doc 'declare)
00:52	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol
00:52	Makoryu	,(doc declare)
00:53	Makoryu	Pffft
00:53	clojurebot	"([& names]); defs the supplied var names with no bindings, useful for making forward declarations."
01:43	namor	nick namor
01:43	namor	oups
03:05	LauJensen	Morning gents
03:07	Fossi	hi
04:03	snowwhite	how do i use compojure in the existing clojure project?
04:08	snowwhite	ping
04:11	LauJensen	eh?
04:12	LauJensen	snowwhite, could you clarify?
04:14	snowwhite	LauJensen, Thanks, just got the solution
04:21	adityo	hey snowwhite
04:21	snowwhite	pong
04:22	snowwhite	adityo, pong
05:28	LauJensen	Any regex junkies here today?
05:35	voldern	LauJensen: just ask your question
05:38	LauJensen	,(re-find #"<([A-Z][A-Z0-9])\b[^>]>(.*?)</\1>" "foo bar <title>quux</title> baz 1 2 3")
05:38	clojurebot	nil
05:38	LauJensen	Why am I not trapping quux ?
05:39	jdz	nice, regexps. used for parsing. i'm not reading your next blog entry lau, no way.
05:39	LauJensen	haha
05:44	raek	#"<([A-Za-z][A-Za-z0-9])\b[^>]>(.*?)</\1>"
05:44	raek	,(re-find #"<([A-Za-z][A-Za-z0-9])\b[^>]>(.*?)</\1>" "foo bar <title>quux</title> baz 1 2 3")
05:44	clojurebot	["<title>quux</title>" "title" "quux"]
05:45	raek	small letters... :)
05:48	LauJensen	aaah, good catch, thanks
05:48	LauJensen	so we got it worked out and as usual, no thanks to jdz :)
05:49	jdz	i'm not taking part of increasing the number of regexp-wielding monkeys in the world.
05:56	raek	,(re-find #"<([A-Za-z][A-Za-z0-9])\b[^>]>(.*?)</\1>" "foo bar <p>quux</p><p>foo-foo foo-bar</p> baz 1 2 3")
05:56	clojurebot	["<p>quux</p>" "p" "quux"]
05:57	raek	ah, (.*?)
06:08	crios_	,(eval (list '+ 2 8))
06:08	clojurebot	DENIED
06:08	crios_	well, anyway: is there a shorter way to do it?
06:08	Chousuke	(+ 2 8)? :P
06:08	clojurebot	suffusion of yellow
06:09	crios_	yes Chousuke :) besides that
06:09	crios_	I mean, executing a dinamically created list
06:09	crios_	I was guessing ((list '+ 2 8))
06:09	crios_	but it does not work
06:09	Chousuke	no, you need eval
06:10	Chousuke	though using eval is often suspicious. what are you doing :)
06:10	Chousuke	+? :P
06:12	crios_	well, sort of studying, following some Scheme example: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-16.html#%_sec_2.3.2
06:12	crios_	there you find: (define (make-sum a1 a2) (list '+ a1 a2))
06:13	Chousuke	ah, well, studying eval is okay I guess.
06:14	Chousuke	helps you understand why you shouldn't use it too often :P
06:15	crios_	yes; just wondering why that Scheme example works without an explicit "eval" function, but maybe there is some different approach to the "executing step"
06:15	Chousuke	hmm
06:15	jdz	,(let [l '(2 8) f '+] (apply f l))
06:15	clojurebot	8
06:16	jdz	huh?
06:16	Chousuke	'+ is a function, but it's not + :)
06:16	jdz	oh, right
06:16	Chousuke	,('+ '{+ 1})
06:16	clojurebot	1
06:16	jdz	,(let [l '(2 8) f +] (apply f l))
06:16	clojurebot	10
06:16	Chousuke	,('+ '{- 1} 2)
06:16	clojurebot	2
06:17	jdz	,'+
06:17	clojurebot	+
06:17	jdz	,(apply '+ :foo)
06:17	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Keyword
06:17	jdz	,(apply '+ '(:foo))
06:17	clojurebot	nil
06:18	Chousuke	'+ looks itself up in whatever associative thing you give it
06:18	jdz	hmm, clojurebot should add evaluation numbers so we can refer to them in the chat :)
06:18	Chousuke	or returns its second argument (which is nil by default)
06:20	jdz	i'd probably expect that from keywords, but from ordinary symbols...
06:20	crios_	So, if you were implementing in Clojure the some "derivate" example in http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-16.html#%_sec_2.3.2 (Representing algebraic expressions), would you use "eval" ?
06:20	crios_	or some other trick?
06:20	Chousuke	crios_: the (+ a1 a2) list in that code is not evaluated at any point. it's just a data structure used by the derivation function
06:21	crios_	yes, but when actually doing the (deriv '(+ x 3) 'x)
06:21	crios_	it is evaluated
06:22	Chousuke	where is deriv defined?
06:22	Chousuke	oh wait, duh
06:23	Chousuke	no, it's not evaluated :)
06:23	Chousuke	if it were, there would be a call to eval
06:24	crios_	it is defined in "The differentiation program with abstract data"
06:24	crios_	and used when sum? is true
06:24	crios_	sum is true when the operator is +
06:25	crios_	it seems to me that in Scheme you (in that example) don't need to call an "eval"
06:25	jdz	crios_: it seems to you wrong
06:26	Chousuke	crios_: it never looks for the function +. all it deals with are symbols
06:26	crios_	jdz: :) I was guessing it, but why?
06:26	jdz	crios_: if there is no need for eval in scheme code, you don't need it in Clojure code
06:27	Chousuke	oh damnation, my emacs is broken
06:27	crios_	Chousuke: so you mean it never really do a real sum?
06:27	crios_	ok, I understood :)
06:27	Chousuke	crios_: yeah.
06:27	jdz	crios_: you can define function make-sum like (define (make-sum a1 a2) (list 'this-is-a-plus-symbol a1 a2))
06:28	jdz	crios_: and change the sum? function accordingly
06:28	Chousuke	crios_: deriv only transforms the list '(+ x 2) to '(+ 1 0)
06:28	crios_	ok, I see that. Pardon for causing confunsion
06:28	crios_	thanks
06:29	Chousuke	you can eval those to get the sum, but that's not relevant to deriv :)
07:44	pixelman	how can i check if a variable exists?
07:45	pixelman	like (isset? debug)
07:48	pixelman	,(resolve 'debug)
07:48	clojurebot	nil
08:07	benns	how do i install swank-clojure manually ?
08:08	eevar2	benns: git clone
08:08	benns	everything i found out so far says to run clojure-install from emacs
08:08	benns	eei mean the configuration bit
08:10	benns	i mean who came up with that crap anyway
08:11	benns	i don't want to download clojure/etc/etc i have them installed
08:11	eevar2	my .emacs looks something like this: http://pastebin.com/m64f9ee22
08:11	benns	ok thanks
08:12	noidi	i followed these instructions to install slime/clojure http://riddell.us/tutorial/slime_swank/slime_swank.html
08:13	noidi	just used my own paths instead of dumping everything under /opt
08:14	noidi	nothing ubuntu specific in the tutorial, despite the title
08:19	G0SUB	what's the best way to recursively modify the values of a map (they themselves can be maps)? (I am fine with creating a new map)
08:25	chouser	it's good that you're ok with that, because maps are immutable, so you must create a new one.
08:27	benns	how do i start clojure from emacs ?
08:27	benns	i have other lisps in slime-lisp-implementations
08:27	ambient	M-x slime
08:27	benns	slime runs clozure cl
08:27	ambient	ah, then I don't know. i have only clojure installed
08:27	benns	the guy who wrote swank-clojure should be hanged
08:29	chouser	,(letfn [(double-value [m] (zipmap (keys m) (map #(if (map? %) (double-value %) (* 2 %)) (vals m))))] (double-value {:a 1, :b 2, :c {:d 3, :e 4, :f {:g 5}, :h 6}}))
08:29	clojurebot	{:c {:h 12, :f {:g 10}, :e 8, :d 6}, :b 4, :a 2}
08:29	chouser	G0SUB: ^^^
08:30	eevar2	benns: did you read the docs? -- http://github.com/jochu/swank-clojure mentions something about running clojure alongside cl
08:30	benns	i did that
08:31	benns	basically swank-clojure-config is broken
08:31	benns	he should simply say what configuration options exist and let _me_ set them up
08:31	benns	instead of assuming things that do not exist
08:32	ambient	well you could fix it if you know so much about it for the benefit of the rest of us?
08:34	benns	no dude i won't waste my time with this pile of crap
08:34	benns	if he can't be bothered to release stuff that works, i won't do his job for him
08:35	benns	i have 4 cl implementations working perfectly with slime and swank-clojure fucks everything up because he can't be bothered to document his own stuff
08:45	danlei	benns: what I do is: just compile swank.clojure.jar, use swank.swank/start-server in the clojure repl, and connect via slime-connect. (ymmv)
08:47	benns	this is an option, but clojure-mode depends on swank-clojure being loaded
08:47	benns	so i can't even get the first without the second
08:47	danlei	bens, a sec
08:47	G0SUB	chouser: wow. thanks.
08:48	danlei	benns: I require (in that order) clojure-mode, swank-clojure, and swank-clojure-autoload in my .emacs. that's all I have set-up, and it works
08:49	danlei	benns: and I don't like clojure-install either, I compiled swank.clojure.jar via maven
08:49	G0SUB	chouser: so that calls the function recursively. that's stack consuming, right?
08:50	chouser	G0SUB: yes
08:51	G0SUB	chouser: ok. thanks for reminding me about zipmap. that's awesome. many thanks.
08:51	chouser	but it consumes stack relative to the depth of the map nesting, not relative to the size of each map
08:51	chouser	np
08:52	G0SUB	right.
08:54	chouser	and it's necessary to keep the partially-complete higher-level maps somewhere while working on lower-level ones. Using the JVM stack is by far the most convenient.
08:56	chouser	if you maps can be deeper than the JVM stack allows (and increasing the size of the JVM stack isn't acceptible), you have to build up an accumulator either with tail-recursive calls or 'reduce'. More code, harder to get right, and likely slower.
08:59	benns	danlei: the problem i have here is that he assumes i do not have slime installed and configured
08:59	benns	i tried clojure-installed, not even that works
09:03	danlei	benns: hm. I'm not sure why it won't work. I use jochu's clojure-mode and swank-clojure repos, both are up-to-date. If you want to take a look at my .emacs, it's at http://github.com/danlei/emacs/ if you want to take a look. I can assure you, I never ran clojure-install, just what's in my .emacs and compiled swank-clojure with maven ... hth
09:09	benns	danlei: how do you start clojure instead of clisp though ?
09:09	benns	M-x slime starts ccl here
09:09	benns	M-- M-x slime clojure does not exist
09:09	danlei	benns: as I said, I use swank-connect exclusively
09:10	pixelman	how can I loop a collection and have access to the current index? I want to track progress
09:15	danlei	benns: s/swank-connect/slime-connect/
09:17	jdz	pixelman: how do you loop?
09:18	pixelman	jdz: dorun, but now I am re writing with loop/recur it'll work
09:18	pixelman	jdz: I was searching for a construct like rubys .each_with_index
09:18	jdz	pixelman: well, if you use map, like (map my-function collection)
09:19	pixelman	jdz: I want to prinnt out 45% done etc.
09:20	jdz	pixelman: then you can instead do (map my-function-that-takes-item-and-index collection (iterate inc 1))
09:20	Chousuke	map is probably not the best choice though
09:20	chouser	clojure.contrib.seq-utils/indexed
09:20	Chousuke	because it's lazy
09:21	jdz	Chousuke: well, i saw pixelman uses dorun at the moment
09:21	pixelman	chouser: indexed will fit the bill!
09:22	pixelman	just noticed today the documentation for clojure contrib
09:22	pixelman	http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/seq-utils-api.html#seq-utils/indexed
09:22	pixelman	I like that it's possible to click to the source
09:37	benns	ok i managed to make it work
09:37	benns	thanks danlei
09:38	danlei	benns: slime-connect or M-- M-x slime?
09:38	danlei	benns: welcome
09:38	benns	M-- M-x slime
09:38	benns	or M-x slime-clojure
09:38	liwp	benns: did you have to fix something in swnak-clojure or was it just a pain to configure it?
09:38	benns	as this is the scheme i'm using with the rest of the lisps
09:38	danlei	I see
09:38	danlei	did you have to do something besides what's in my .emacs, if yes, what?
09:39	benns	i will paste the relevant bits
09:39	danlei	thanks
09:42	benns	http://paste.lisp.org/display/88333
09:43	benns	the clojure binary is the one he gives with modified classpath to include swank-clojure
09:43	benns	s/binary/script
09:47	danlei	benns: ok, ty
09:55	jdz	http://paste.lisp.org/display/88333#1
09:57	Chousuke	hm. something has gone wrong with my emacs
09:57	Chousuke	the option key seems to have stopped working
09:58	Chousuke	makes it kinda difficult to write clojure code, as I can't type [ or { :P
09:58	benns	jdz: it would be good if he would put these examples in the docs for swank-clojure
10:07	jfields	how do I take an argument passed to a macro and make it a string? I tried (defmacro foo [x] `(println "~x")) but that printed ~x
10:08	chouser	try 'str'
10:08	jdz	jfields: why do you want a macro?
10:09	jdz	oh, nvm. misunderstood the question.
10:09	jdz	i think.
10:09	jfields	jdz I'm being lazy for a function that I use all the time and I don't want to type the quotes anymore.
10:09	jfields	chouser cool. thanks.
10:21	ngoc	Hi, how to create interdependent namespaces?
10:21	Chousuke	I don't think you can.
10:22	cemerick	ngoc: you'd have to control the load order explicitly, which is generally a sign you're doing something wrong
10:22	cemerick	e.g. factor out the base functionality into its own ns, and have the two existing ns' refer to it
10:23	ngoc	Functions in namespce a use functions in namespace b and functions in namespace b use functions in namespace a
10:23	chouser	right. stop doing that :-)
10:23	cemerick	then it sounds like there shouldn't be two namespaces
10:24	cemerick	~max
10:24	clojurebot	max people is 182
10:24	chouser	ngoc: it could probably be made to work, but it seems likely there's a better way
10:25	cemerick	we have one spot where there's an interdependency -- in that case, namespace a sets up an empty atom which is reset by a dependent namespace when it loads
10:25	cemerick	not ideal, but it had to happen, and I regret it immensely :-\|
10:31	ngoc	I think "resolve" form can be used to evalutate namespace/function dynamically?
10:32	cemerick	yes, that's the fn used to look up vars dynamically
10:32	Chousuke	but do you really want that?
10:32	cemerick	it's definitely intended to be used sparingly
10:33	Chousuke	and I really wish we had some "canonicalize" function for symbols :P
10:33	Chousuke	and keywords
10:33	cemerick	outside of the normal interning?
10:34	ngoc	I "factor out the base functionality into its own ns, and have the two existing ns' refer to it" <-- but the functions in the new one has to call functions in the 2 others, so the problem remains?
10:34	Chousuke	cemerick: I had a need to figure out the full namespace-qualified form of a given. turns out it's not exactly trivial
10:34	Chousuke	a given symbol
10:35	cemerick	ngoc: the objective is to eliminate the ns interdependencies. If that can't be done, why have just one namespace?
10:37	cemerick	I mean, why not have just one namespace?
10:37	Chousuke	cemerick: the way to do it is try resolve first, then if it succeed, extract the namespace and name strings from the var and reassemble them into a symbol, or if it fails, see if the symbol has a namespace part that is an alias for some other namespace, and if so, expand it. unless you're done by now, you either need to add the current namespace to the symbol OR leave it as it
10:37	Chousuke	is...
10:39	cemerick	I remember writing a fn to get a ns-qualified symbol from a var.
10:39	cemerick	It wasn't pretty.
10:39	Chousuke	I still haven't implemented this fully for my syntax-quote macro because I (obviously) can't use any functions that depend on macros using syntax-quote... :P
10:39	cemerick	Chousuke: by 'alias', do you mean symbol mappings in ns declarations?
10:39	ngoc	cemerick: OK, if in a same namespace, function f1 calls f2, and f2 calls f1, some kind of "forward definition" is used?
10:40	Chousuke	cemerick: the :as stuff, yeah
10:40	Chousuke	ngoc: declare works
10:42	triddell	ok, I'm the one who wrote the tutorials at http://riddell.us for clojure, slime/swank, etc. They are out of date right now but I'm trying to update them this morning. question: what repository is everyone pulling swank-clojure from these days?
10:44	eevar2	triddell: git://github.com/jochu/swank-clojure.git
10:45	eevar2	clojure-mode is git://github.com/jochu/clojure-mode.git
10:46	Chousuke	I use technomancy's repos for both
10:46	triddell	eevar2: ok, I thought I saw something about technomancy forking it and other using that
10:46	eevar2	^^ seems some do
10:47	danlarkin	I believe technomancy has been a more active maintainer
10:48	Chousuke	the repos do merge periodically though
10:49	triddell	but is his mostly for the clojure-install method of installation, where he keeps versions in sync
10:50	triddell	my install is manual and just takes each repos current HEAD
10:51	triddell	which could have mixed results depending on when it's done
10:51	triddell	well, I'll just try with jochu today and see if that works
10:53	danlarkin	it seems jochu maven-ized swank-clojure, which I don't really get
10:56	Chousuke	well, most of it is clojure, isn't it? it could be used with apps other than emacs
10:58	danlarkin	Hm I suppose that's true
11:00	Fossi	triddell: a hint on your (excellent, thanks) page that there is now clojure-install would be great
11:10	tmountain	the first two articles on hacker news are both clojure related ... gaining some mindshare !
11:14	cemerick	yeah, things have really picked up lately...of course, right as I had to step away! :-/
11:17	tmountain	I wonder what the numbers look like regarding downloads of Clojure over the past year
11:39	ngoc	Is it true that ;;; is used for namespace comments, ;; for function comments, ; for comments inside functions?
11:42	Chousuke	ngoc: that's the convention
11:43	ngoc	Sometimes I see that ;; is used for comments inside functions. Is this worse than ;?
11:43	ngoc	; ?
11:43	stuartsierra	ngoc: emacs will right-align comments starting with ;
11:56	ngoc	How often are you all using gotapi.com? Is there any plan to add Clojure doc to it?
11:56	stuartsierra	don't use it
11:57	ngoc	Is there a better place? (find-doc keyword)? :D
11:57	chouser	never heard of it
11:58	stuartsierra	every web-based javadoc search I've tried is slower than google
11:59	chouser	I like (javadoc x)
11:59	ngoc	Is there an easy way to join elements of an array together?
12:00	chouser	ngoc: into a string?
12:00	mtm	I've been using kiwidoc.com (caveat: written by a friend of mine)
12:00	ngoc	yes, like ["a", "b"] and ", " into "a, b"
12:00	danlei	technomancy: are you there?
12:01	chouser	ngoc: that's a vector not an array, but either way you can use str-utils/str-join, str-utils2/join, or apply str/interpose
12:02	technomancy	danlei: yeah, hi
12:02	ngoc	Is a vector a fix-sized array?
12:03	chouser	ngoc: no
12:03	chouser	ngoc: a vector is an indexed persistent collection
12:04	chouser	ngoc: http://clojure.org/data_structures#Vectors
12:05	danlei	technomancy: hi, I tried to set up swank-clojure under windows, and it appends "/src" to my swank-clojure-path, which I set to [...]/swank-clojure/target/classes/, which breaks everything for met. (since slime-lisp-implementations tries to call java -cp [...]/swank-clojure/target/classes/src/, which won't work
12:05	ngoc	There are str-utils and str-utils2. Will str-utils be removed in the future?
12:05	danlei	technomancy: I do appreciate that clojure-install makes things easier for newbies, but somehow it's getting in my way pretty much (I remember that I had this working some time ago)
12:06	stuartsierra	ngoc: probably, time unspecified
12:07	chouser	stuartsierra: I don't think I've heard a single person suggest they'd like str-utils to stick around, so that's good.
12:08	stuartsierra	'k
12:09	chouser	I guess they might come out of the woodwork if 'require'ing it started to print warnings. :-)
12:10	ngoc	Is there a way to create a normal Java array? Or is a vector must be created first, then casted into Java array?
12:10	stuartsierra	,(doc make-array)
12:10	clojurebot	"([type len] [type dim & more-dims]); Creates and returns an array of instances of the specified class of the specified dimension(s). Note that a class object is required. Class objects can be obtained by using their imported or fully-qualified name. Class objects for the primitive types can be obtained using, e.g., Integer/TYPE."
12:10	chouser	vectors and arrays aren't really related
12:10	arohner	can I get quick opinions on a name I'm thinking of for a clojure library?
12:10	arohner	scriptjure
12:10	tmountain	isn't there an issue with namespace collissions and str-utils2?
12:11	stuartsierra	tmountain: it's a feature :)
12:11	danlei	technomancy: worse than that, under cygwin it even prepends "/home/danlei/" to my set-up paths ("c:/cygwin/home/danlei/.../blabla" -> "/home/danlei/c:/cygwin/..."), can't it just leave my paths as I set them?
12:11	chouser	tmountain: yeah, don't 'use' it. (require '[clojure.contrib.str-utils2 :as str2])
12:11	tmountain	stuartsierra: ahh, of course
12:11	tmountain	as an aside, I'm a big fan of str-utils... use it all the time
12:23	triddell1	FYI: I've updated my clojure and slime/swank tutorials: http://riddell.us/blog/2009/10/07/tutorials-updated.html
12:23	triddell1	I still see a lot of reference to them and they were very out of date
12:25	chouser	triddell1: updating old docs isn't fun, but I'm sure it'll help a lot of people. thanks for doing it!
12:29	triddell1	chouser: np, this route maybe passe with most people using the clojure-install method but there's no sense in having a broken tutorial out there for those new to clojure
12:31	danlei	triddell1: ah, using s-c-extra-classpaths for swank-clojure :)
12:31	danlei	triddell1: that's an option
12:32	triddell1	danlei: yes, that is the part I needed to figure out today!
12:33	triddell1	danlei: wasn't sure what another would be
12:33	triddell1	danlei: option that is
12:33	danlei	triddell1: well, basically it's jumping through hoops, I guess
12:34	danlei	triddell1: look at slime-swank-implementations, it adds the path itself, but /wrong/ (at least for me)
12:34	danlei	triddell1: so basically, this /shouldn't/ be neccessary
12:36	danlei	triddell1: oh, slime-lisp-implementations, i meant
12:36	abbe	hi everyone
12:36	abbe	how to generate API documentation like the one on clojure-contrib site ? is it downloadable ?
12:37	triddell1	danlei: yes, the path changed for swank.clj and it wasn't in the classpath... this is the only way I could fix that (or atleast the first way I found)
12:37	danlei	triddell1: yes
12:38	abbe	I think its gen-html-docs, is there any script using that ?
12:38	triddell1	danlei: but yes, it shouldn't be necessary
12:38	danlei	triddell1: in my opinion, just setting swank-clojure-path should suffice
12:38	abbe	oh, got it, from gh-pages branch
12:38	danlei	triddell1: but for me, it adds a /src at the end of the path, which gets passed as -cp in slime-lisp-implementations, which breaks it
12:39	danlei	danlarkin: so your hack is the rescue :)
12:39	danlei	danlarkin: oops
12:39	benns	why does it add stuff in slime-lisp-implementations by itself
12:39	benns	this is what broke it here
12:39	danlei	benns: to be convenient, I'd say
12:39	danlarkin	danlei: my hack?
12:40	benns	wel that's fine if it describes how to do it manually
12:40	benns	but as it is now it doesn't
12:40	triddell1	danlei: good!, ping me later if you find this step unnecessary
12:40	danlei	danlarkin: sorry, name got copletet wrongly
12:41	danlei	triddell1: well, it should be unneccessary, but atm it is neccessary :)
12:41	triddell1	danlei: right, in the future though :-)
12:41	danlei	triddell1: at least it words
12:41	danlei	*works
12:41	danlei	triddell1: ok
12:43	technomancy	danlei: sorry, was on the phone
12:43	technomancy	you're using jochu's fork?
12:43	danlei	technomancy: np, we're talking about jochus anyway, but I
12:43	danlei	technomancy: yes
12:44	technomancy	man... I tried to look at that yesterday, but I couldn't get it to work either. =
12:44	technomancy	=\
12:45	danlei	technomancy: adding it to extra-classpaths, as tridell1 did gets around the problem
12:46	technomancy	shouldn't be necessary in my fork, but if you got it to work that's cool
12:46	danlei	technomancy: C-h v slime-lisp-implementations helps a lot there
12:46	technomancy	the automated install uses my fork now since there was too much confusion about these kinds of things
12:48	danlei	it's really a mess, at least if you don't use clojure-install
12:50	danlei	e.g. it wants it's swank-clojure-jar-path set, even If I just want to connect via M-x slime-connect, ohterwise it barfs. that's weird (doesn't even matter what the path is set to)
12:51	technomancy	heh; I don't even have a swank-clojure-jar-path
12:52	danlei	either swank-clojure-jar-path or wank-clojure-binary must be set, if I remembercorrectly
12:52	danlei	anyway, at least it works .. somehow
12:55	ngoc	Hi, thanks all for all your help these days. I was able to create a very simple chat server as a Clojure exercise: http://github.com/ngocdaothanh/telchat. I'm newbie, comments are very welcome.
13:19	avital	Hello friends. Is [] just a reader macro for (vector)? It seems not: If I eval the following: (ns clojure.core) (defn vector [& rest] "YES") (vector 1 2 3) I get "YES" but if I then eval [1 2 3] I get [1 2 3]. Is there any way to modify []'s behavior? What actually is [] then?
13:24	Chousuke	avital: no, it's not. it's a real vector
13:24	danlei	avital: it's a "reader form" and there is no way to modify it I knew of
13:24	Chousuke	,(read-string "[]")
13:24	clojurebot	[]
13:24	Chousuke	so it's not (vector)
13:25	Chousuke	if it were (vector ...) then you should be able to do (defn foo (vector a b c) ... ) but that of course fails :)
13:26	avital	Right.
13:26	avital	I'll try to explain what we're trying to do.
13:26	avital	We'd like to allow for a purely functional way to do something similar to logging but not exactly that. It is part of work we are doing on a google wave robot.
13:27	avital	Our idea was to have all functions always return results with metadata containing the "log" information
13:27	avital	Then we wrap all functions with something that concatenates all the logs of the arguments and returns a result with that concatenated log as its metadata
13:27	avital	This way we hoped that any function call would end up returning the full log in its metadata
13:27	Chousuke	problem 1: not everything can have metadata ;/
13:27	avital	(Of course there are issues with primities, etc - we are aware of this.)
13:30	avital	As far as I understand, if we make an assumption that all values in our program are not primitives then other than reader forms, this solution would work.
13:30	avital	Even macros would magically work because they eventually call functions and if we redefine vector, map, ... that would work.
13:31	Chousuke	that sounds like way too much magic
13:31	Chousuke	but you can't modify the reader. it's written in java and exposes no hooks to itself
13:32	Chousuke	you'd need your own reader
13:32	danlei	or chosuke's ;)
13:32	Chousuke	if it were complete :P
13:32	avital	Right, I get it that it's impossible but I'd like to understand this in a quasi-theoretical way
13:32	danlei	:)
13:33	Chousuke	avital: so what are you actually not understanding here?
13:34	avital	Is there a purely functional way to do something that is like logging, but is _not_ logging (meaning I can't use print). I want it to be purely functional because it is actually applicative and i need to be able to unit test it etc (so I don't want to use thread-local vars).
13:34	avital	Not in clojure
13:34	avital	This is a general question about functional programming
13:35	avital	I'm sorry if this seems like a strange question the way it's posed but this is truly a specific issue we are having now, we can work around it now but we are going to have difficulties with it.
13:35	avital	We'll end up using thread-local vars but that will make testing more difficult.
13:35	Chousuke	well, for haskell there is the monad that allows you to "write" arbitrary information to an accumulator.
13:35	Makoryu	avital: Sure, there's a monad-based solution some Haskell folks came up with
13:36	Chousuke	with clojure you could do the same, but you'd probably have to pass around the accumulator explicitly
13:36	Chousuke	unless of course, you use the clojure monad library :)
13:36	Makoryu	avital: Are you familiar with the concept of monads?
13:36	avital	Makoryu: Not enough - isn't it just a wrapper for side-effect causing code?
13:37	Chousuke	no
13:37	Makoryu	avital: Nope
13:37	avital	Ok I'll go read a bit.
13:37	Makoryu	avital: The fact that Haskell has an IO monad (which is exactly that) is incidental to the idea of monads in general
13:37	avital	Does this accumulator monad have a name?
13:38	Chousuke	my current high-level definitions of monads is that they provide a way to define how functions in a category are composed
13:38	Chousuke	and probably something else too
13:38	Chousuke	it's like function composition, except you get to define what the composition operation is
13:39	noidi	this might be a stupid idea, but maybe you could put your log information in a map stored in a ref, which uses the "things" as keys?
13:39	Chousuke	and thus you can do all kinds of things like enforce serial execution or whatever
13:40	noidi	so that you could check (@log return-value-of-a-function) for the logging information
13:40	danlei	like monad-comprehensions -> list-comprehensions
13:40	avital	noidi: It should not be shared between threads
13:41	Chousuke	avital: put it in a ref with a nil root binding
13:41	Chousuke	er
13:41	Chousuke	regular def I mean
13:41	noidi	avital, threads can shere refs
13:41	noidi	share
13:41	avital	Chousuke: That will work, and will probably be what we'll end up doing but that will make it non-functional and this harder to test.
13:41	avital	noidi: No, I meant I don't want our log data to be shared between threads
13:42	noidi	ah, I missed the "not" :)
13:42	avital	Again, this is not really logging - it is the list of operations to return to the wave server. It is actual applicative code and must be unit tested
13:46	noidi	I haven't really understood monads (yet), but from the little I did understand, they might be what you want
13:46	noidi	like Chousuke and Makoryu suggested
13:47	avital	Yes, I am reading about it now and it seems to be exactly what we are looking for.
13:47	avital	So where is this clojure monad library again? ;)
13:47	noidi	http://onclojure.com/2009/03/05/a-monad-tutorial-for-clojure-programmers-part-1/
14:00	ambient	it's also in clojure.contrib afaik
14:08	technomancy	stuartsierra: did you catch the second patch for #194?
14:09	technomancy	first one had the tests not really testing anything
14:13	stuartsierra	clojurebot: #194
14:13	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
14:14	stuartsierra	technomancy: got it; will test later
14:14	technomancy	ok, cool
14:15	chouser	~ticket #194
14:15	clojurebot	{:url http://tinyurl.com/y8nhyty, :summary "clojure.test use-fixtures function composes fixture functions repeatedly", :status :test, :priority :normal, :created-on "2009-10-07T17:54:39+00:00"}
14:42	phpwner	anyone in south florida? a CTO buddy of mine is looking for a hire
14:47	phpwner	PM me
14:57	ambient	php work for 7 bucks an hour ;)
15:00	mgarriss	can i ask a function what it's arity is?
15:02	pixelman	how can I get read-line to work from emacs?
15:03	pixelman	I type many newlines but not much happens
15:14	phpwner	ambient: no clojure work for probably $30-40/hr
15:14	kotarak	mgarriss: not programmatically. You get the arglists in the docstring however
15:15	mgarriss	bummer
15:15	kotarak	mgarriss: why do you need to know?
15:15	chouser	mgarriss: also can reflect on the invoke methods of function class
15:16	mgarriss	kotarak: i'm writing something that randomly puts together a function out of fn and data symbols i pass it
15:17	mgarriss	chouser: is that a java call?
15:18	chouser	yeah, it's a bit of a mess. somebody put together a nice function
15:19	kotarak	mgarriss: and you need to know how much arguments to pass to the fn?
15:20	mgarriss	kotarak: yeah
15:21	mgarriss	the fn that builds the new fn needs to know the arity of the fn's it can choose from
15:21	mgarriss	i think i'm going to just enforce an arity requirement on the passed in fn's
15:22	mgarriss	but that kind of sucks
15:22	kotarak	mgarriss: it depends.
15:23	kotarak	mgarriss: What's the purpose of the random generation?
15:23	chouser	mgarriss: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/d9953ada48068d78/1823e56ffba50dbb?q=argument+count+group:clojure#1823e56ffba50dbb
15:24	chouser	gah. sorry, that's a horrible url
15:25	mgarriss	i'm rewriting an old aLife sim i wrote in c++, each "cell" in the sim had a byte string that was interpreted as a mini language, new cells might mutate that little program. clojure/lisp allows me to write the little programs in clojure itself. i'm excited about it
15:25	Chousuke	heh
15:25	Chousuke	genetic programming, huh?
15:25	mgarriss	yeah
15:26	mgarriss	i think it cold be very cool in clojure
15:26	mgarriss	*could
15:26	phpwner	need clojure programmers in sofla. pm me
15:27	mgarriss	chouser: awesome, thanks for the link
15:31	nathanmarz	hey all
15:31	nathanmarz	are there any continuations-based web application frameworks being developed in clojure?
15:45	mgarriss	that arities fn works well
15:55	kotarak	dnolen, cgrand: did you continue your discussion on template inheritance? My idea (stolen from eg. blogofile) was to have two types of templates, pages and snippets. Pages basically nest and are put into the place of a <content/> tag in the parent page template. Snippets may be used in arbitrary positions with maybe a <snippet name="xxx"/> to invoke the xxx snippet at that position. After each snippet (or page template) is expanded a special
15:55	kotarak	snippet expands and snippet tags.
15:55	ambient	i have a dream, dream in which clojure runs flawlessly on both .NET and JVM, using portable code
15:55	kotarak	dnolen, cgrand: I'm not sure this really works, but I'll probably give it a try.
15:56	chouser	ambient: and the browser and on the iPhone.
15:56	dnolen	kotarak: not yet, still thinking about it myself. but I was thinking along those lines as well.
15:57	eyeris	I get a compilation error while trying to compile current clojureql from gitorious against clojure 1.0.0. Has clojureql moved away from clojure 1.0.0?
15:57	kotarak	eyeris: good question. I wouldn't think so. Let me check.
16:00	technomancy	nathanmarz: clojure doesn't have continuations
16:01	kotarak	eyeris: nope, works for me with 1.0.
16:01	kotarak	eyeris: what specific problem do you have?
16:01	eyeris	I will paste the stacktrace. Give me one sex.
16:01	eyeris	sec*
16:03	eyeris	http://pastebin.ca/1602299
16:03	eyeris	Maybe it's expecting me to have Derby installed?
16:03	kotarak	you need the Derby jar.
16:03	kotarak	Yes. You need it for compilation.
16:03	kotarak	Or you manually disable the backend in the build.xml.
16:04	eyeris	Where do I put the derby jar?
16:05	kotarak	Into the lib directory.
16:05	kotarak	If you use Ivy it's fetched for you.
16:10	eyeris	After upgrading my code to the newest clojureql, my (ns (:require...)) fails with this dump: http://pastebin.ca/1602318
16:11	kotarak	eyeris: I had such errors with messed up builds. Try a clean and then a compile. Also check that, there is not a second clojure.jar with a different version.
16:14	emacsen	Anyone here going to the Clojure class in Reston
16:14	kotarak	too far away
16:15	leafw	actually only 30 min from here -- what class is that?
16:15	leafw	if we mean Reston, VA
16:15	emacsen	http://pragmaticstudio.com/clojure
16:15	kotarak	yes, class with Rich and the book Stuart
16:15	emacsen	"The book Stuart" hehe
16:16	leafw	xD
16:16	leafw	for $1500 I know enough already.
16:16	ambient	the channel 9 clojure talk is really nice
16:17	kotarak	emacsen: well, there are several Stuarts. Eg. Stuart Sierra.
16:18	emacsen	true
16:18	emacsen	channel 9?
16:19	emacsen	like NY Channel 9?
16:19	emacsen	WWOR
16:19	ambient	http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going+Deep/Expert-to-Expert-Rich-Hickey-and-Brian-Beckman-Inside-Clojure/
16:19	emacsen	Oh. I was more in favor of something on Channel 9
16:20	emacsen	maybe a Rich Hickey, Uncle Floyd show
16:20	technomancy	that guy liked to talk about how much he knew about obscure languages. =)
16:20	technomancy	but yeah, it was pretty good
16:32	eyeris	haha!
16:32	eyeris	It works!
16:32	eyeris	Thank kotarak
16:32	kotarak	eyeris: what was the problem?
16:35	kotarak	man, clojure's compilation model sure is resistant to easy handling.
16:35	chouser	kotarak: in what way?
16:36	kotarak	because you have to specify namespaces.
16:36	chouser	instead of files?
16:36	kotarak	You either have to specify them manually, or you need some discovery mechanism.
16:36	kotarak	Yes
16:36	kotarak	I'm currently writing a Gradle plugin.
16:37	kotarak	Where Java and Groovy just say "Look there is this src dir. Compile the stuff there.", I have to jump through hoops with Clojure.
16:37	kotarak	Compile could figure out the namespaces itself.
16:38	kotarak	I could read all files and check the first form for ns or in-ns. But that would be best done with Clojure. Maybe I should use Clojure to write the plugin....
16:39	leafw	kotarak: I agree. Compiling clojure is still a pain.
16:39	LauJensen	ztellman, you here?
16:39	ztellman	LauJensen: yeah
16:39	LauJensen	ztellman, your tetris game throws this: Can't take value of a macro: #'penumbra.opengl/color
16:39	LauJensen	I just got it from Github - am I doing something wrong?
16:39	ztellman	um, I changed around some stuff in opengl.clj
16:39	eyeris	Yeah, it's especially strange that it requires a namespace as an argument because the files are named the same as the namespace.
16:39	kotarak	eyeris: not necessarily
16:40	kotarak	You can also (load) subfiles.
16:40	ztellman	changed color into a function that targets color-3 and color-4
16:40	kotarak	eyeris: I actually used this in several projects now.
16:40	ztellman	search for color-3 in src/penumbra/opengl.clj
16:40	ztellman	my guess is that it's not there, for whatever reason
16:41	eyeris	kotarak: What I mean is that the argument to compile, while a namespace, will always match the filename path.
16:41	chouser	kotarak: I think you could (binding [compile-files true] (load-file "foo.clj"))
16:41	LauJensen	ztellman, You gotta fix that, you just got linked by disclojure.org :)
16:41	kotarak	chouser: ??? I don't understand.
16:42	ztellman	LauJensen: I think the problem is limited to you
16:42	ztellman	other people have already gotten it working
16:42	LauJensen	so a git clone will fix it?
16:42	ztellman	that's my belief
16:42	LauJensen	pull even
16:42	chouser	kotarak: look at the source of 'compile' -- you could do what it does, but load a file by name instead of namespace.
16:43	wooby	hi, i've got this simple web server working: http://gist.github.com/203329
16:43	kotarak	chouser: but how about the (load) case? I have to load the master file and ignore the children.
16:43	wooby	however, when a client disconnects abruptly a socketexception is thrown that kills it... and i'm not sure how to fix it
16:44	LauJensen	ztellman, I wasted your time, sorry, git pull solved it
16:44	ztellman	LauJensen, no problem at all
16:44	Guest70798	hi there, i need some help with setting up emacs with clojure
16:44	ztellman	don't hesitate in the future to bother me about this kind of stuff, next time I really might have broken something
16:44	LauJensen	:)
16:44	Guest70798	i installed everything right, slime mode is working
16:45	Guest70798	only my setq swank clojure extra classpaths command
16:45	Guest70798	is not working
16:47	technomancy	Guest70798: if you're working with the latest git version, the variable changed to the less verbose swank-clojure-classpath
16:47	hiredman	wooby: use try/catch to handle the exception
16:47	Guest70798	technomancy
16:47	technomancy	although extra-classpaths should still be aliased to the new variable
16:47	Guest70798	gotta be that
16:47	Guest70798	ah ..
16:47	Guest70798	i'm gonna test
16:48	Guest70798	but has the setq command to be placed in a special place in the .emacs ?
16:48	Guest70798	or just hanging in there ?
16:48	technomancy	Guest70798: as long as it gets executed before you launch slime you're OK
16:48	kotarak	chouser: I'll just go about it and read the first form for every file. If it's in-ns, ignore the file, otherwise compile it. Does that sound reasonable?
16:49	Guest70798	yay
16:49	Guest70798	techno, the aliasing wasn't working apparently
16:49	Guest70798	now i have my full cp
16:49	Guest70798	thank you very much
16:49	technomancy	Guest70798: thanks for letting me know; I'll see if I can fix that.
16:49	Guest70798	great :)
16:50	chouser	kotarak: you're trying to compile every .clj file in a directory tree, with no further direction or configuration?
16:52	kotarak	chouser: I want to hook up as much as possible in the existing gradle infrastructure. There everything is file based with the usual includes/excludes clauses based on filename. And I don't want to specify the namespaces manually all the time.
16:52	wooby	hiredman: cool, got it, thank you
16:53	hiredman	someone should spin out a nice namespace extraction library
16:53	ambient	hmm, what I'm missing? both clojure.jar and clojure-contrib.jar are in classpath: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/def__init.class or clojure/contrib/def.clj on classpath: (opengl.clj:9)
16:54	kotarak	hiredman: there is c.c.find-namespace
16:54	hiredman	,(doc find-namespace)
16:54	clojurebot	Excuse me?
16:54	hiredman	oh
16:54	hiredman	right
16:54	kotarak	c.contrib.f-n
16:55	hiredman	well dang
17:02	gosub80	hi
17:02	gosub80	i was playing with clojure
17:03	gosub80	and there is something I can't understand
17:03	gosub80	can anybody explain to me why (remove #(Character/isDigit %) "test123") works while (remove Character/isDigit "test123") raise an exception?
17:04	hiredman	Character/isDigit is not a clojure function
17:04	chouser	unfortunately. :-/
17:04	hiredman	it is a java static method
17:05	gosub80	ok, but then why works inside the anonimous function?
17:05	hiredman	so generally it is not a value, so you cannot really pass it to other functions
17:05	gosub80	uhm
17:05	gosub80	so it resolves as a function only as the first element of a list?
17:06	hiredman	not really
17:06	hiredman	but more or less
17:06	rstehwien	hmm, this works for me in slime
17:06	rstehwien	user> (remove #(Character/isDigit %) "test123")
17:06	rstehwien	(\t \e \s \t)
17:06	rstehwien	user>
17:06	hiredman	rstehwien: correct
17:06	gosub80	yes, for me too
17:07	hiredman	Character/isDigit never is a function
17:07	hiredman	and it never "resolves" as one
17:07	gosub80	so why it behaves as one in #(Character/isDigit %) ?
17:07	rstehwien	ah but I wouldn't be able to pass it around as a "real" clojure function?
17:07	gosub80	is a trick in the reader?
17:08	rstehwien	unless I wrapped it
17:08	hiredman	yes
17:08	hiredman	,(. Character (isDigit \1))
17:08	clojurebot	true
17:08	gosub80	ok
17:08	gosub80	so, another question...
17:09	gosub80	is there a standard function to turn a sequence of characters into a string?
17:09	kotarak	Java methods were born a second class citizens...
17:09	hiredman	,(apply str (seq "foo"))
17:09	clojurebot	"foo"
17:09	hiredman	kotarak: I guess you could turn them into values via reflection
17:17	gosub80	I think it would be prettier if map, filter and reduce returned strings when applied to strings, like in Haskell, but this is just an helper function away
17:18	chouser	gosub80: that's interesting. how would map in (map f1 (filter f2 "mystring")) know it's supposed to return a string?
17:19	kanak	hi, can anyone tell me how to add my directory to swank-clojure's classpath?
17:19	technomancy	kanak: (add-to-list 'swank-clojure-classpath "/path/to/foo.jar")
17:20	technomancy	use swank-clojure-extra-classpaths on older versions of swank-clojure
17:20	kanak	technomancy: how do i know if i'm using an older version?
17:20	technomancy	kanak: if swank-clojure-classpath is defined in Emacs, you're using a newer one
17:20	gosub80	chouser: in Haskell the String type is just syntactic sugar for [Char], a list of Char
17:21	chouser	Haskell has a static type system
17:21	kanak	technomancy: thanks. Is "~/Code" allowed or do i need to expand the "~" part?
17:21	gosub80	I know
17:23	gosub80	there should be two internal String types, one as a Java String and one as a list of chars, freely and transparently interchangable
17:23	gosub80	i don't know if something like this is even possible :)
17:25	Chousuke	it's not :p
17:25	Chousuke	because you can't have another string type that is compatible with String
17:26	Chousuke	so you'd lose a lot of interoperability with Java if you started using something that's not String
17:26	chouser	it would also break complexity guarantees of the various collection types.
17:27	chouser	(next x) is O(1), but if it returned a String it would have to be O(n)
17:27	hiredman	chouser: well, if you did have two types, it would return the [String] type
17:28	hiredman	er [Char]
17:28	chouser	or if it returned a string-like thing that wasn't a String, turning it into a String could perhaps be transparent, but it would not be free
17:28	hiredman	CharSequence
17:28	hiredman	~ticket search CharSequence
17:28	clojurebot	("#112: GC Issue 108: All Clojure interfaces should specify CharSequence instead of String when possible" "#98: GC Issue 94: \t (ancestors ClassName) does not include tag ancestors of ClassName's superclasses ")
17:28	chouser	in order to be consistent you'd have to be able to do the same thing with vectors and maps
17:29	hiredman	chouser: really?
17:29	chouser	there's no way to do (-> (next my-vec) (conj my-vec)) and end up with a vector in O(1)
17:30	chouser	...without retaining the earlier part of the vector anyway.
17:31	chouser	hiredman: if (map foo "astring") returns a string, shouldn't (map foo [1 2 3]) return a vector?
17:31	hiredman	chouser: it wouldn't return a String it would return a StringSequence or some nonsense
17:32	hiredman	well
17:32	chouser	that you could call String methods on, right?
17:33	hiredman	chouser: hey, I'm not say this would work and I am not advocating it, I am just saying, the lynch pin is merely compatibility with Java's String, if there was a run around that, this would all just sort of fall together
17:34	Chousuke	hmm
17:35	Chousuke	but for (map foo "string") to return a CharSequence, you'd have to know that foo is Char -> Char :/
17:35	gosub80	what I was thinking was:
17:35	hiredman	Oh
17:35	Chousuke	(instance? CharSequence (seq "foo"))
17:35	Chousuke	,(instance? CharSequence (seq "foo"))
17:35	clojurebot	false
17:36	Chousuke	hmm
17:36	Chousuke	maybe that should be fixed.
17:37	Chousuke	though... is it useful? :P
17:37	hiredman	that would be kind of cool
17:37	hiredman	except everyone specifies String everywhere
17:37	Chousuke	how often would you call seq on a string and pass it onto something excepting CharSequence...
17:37	Chousuke	especially since a String is a CharSequence
17:37	hiredman	Never
17:38	hiredman	and nothing takes CharSequences
17:38	Chousuke	yeah :(
17:38	gosub80	if strings, in the general sense, are sequences they should be naturally operated on with functional operations, like maps and reduces. The fact that they return sequences of chars instead of other strings is just to retain interoperability with Java.
17:39	Chousuke	interop with Java is important :)
17:39	Chousuke	practicality trumps purity in this case
17:41	gosub80	yeah
17:42	chouser	my point is that each collection type has functionality that depends on its internal representation, which it may not be able to provide with the same performance profile after you've done seq'y stuff on it.
17:42	gosub80	but maybe there is a way to retain interop and not lose purity :)
17:45	gosub80	chouser: I do agree, in the end if you need to convert this hypotethical string representation to Java String, there is a performance hit.
17:51	gosub80	to have a transparent HypotheticalCharSequence, Java String should not be a Class, but an Interface :)
17:52	technomancy	there's not really a way to get a seq for items that come from a resource that must be closed, is there?
17:52	technomancy	I guess if you force the user of the seq to fully consume it you could close it once you detect the last item
17:53	technomancy	but without that contract you'd end up leaking resources
17:56	hiredman	~ticket #2
17:56	clojurebot	{:url http://tinyurl.com/l6lcfw, :summary "Scopes", :status :new, :priority :normal, :created-on "2009-06-15T12:35:58+00:00"}
17:56	hiredman	:/
17:57	Chousuke	gosub80: I guess making String an interface would prevent many useful optimisations :/
17:58	Chousuke	for example string interning.
18:35	mgarriss	is there any wrappers for basic AWT work? i just need to build an image and be able to grab a mouse click
19:03	technomancy	stuartsierra: do you think it'd be possible to have some kind of use-fixtures invocation that would run once for every new "testing" block?
19:03	technomancy	we're using the nested style a lot at work now, and fixtures would clean it up a fair bit
19:04	stuartsierra	hmm
19:05	technomancy	you'd have to tweak the testing macro a bit... not sure how that would work
19:05	stuartsierra	Maybe. I'd have to think about it.
19:05	technomancy	do you use that macro?
19:05	stuartsierra	almost never
19:05	stuartsierra	I just put it in there to keep the RSpec fanatics quiet. :)
19:05	technomancy	I hate asking for features that the maintainers never use. =)
19:06	technomancy	it's awesome how simple the implementation is though
19:06	technomancy	just doesn't play well with fixtures
19:06	technomancy	it'd be easy if you didn't mind wrapping the body in a new function
19:06	stuartsierra	That was my next question
19:06	technomancy	that would be the only way you could do it, actually
19:07	stuartsierra	Are you calling other test functions inside (testing ...) or just assertions?
19:07	technomancy	definitely more than just calls to "is" if that's what you mean.
19:08	stuartsierra	I mean something like (deftest foo...) (deftest grouped (testing "foo tests" (foo)))
19:08	technomancy	oh, I see. no, I don't do that.
19:08	stuartsierra	ok
19:08	technomancy	but I don't know if it's fair to disallow it just because I don't use it myself
19:08	stuartsierra	So would the fixture be attached to a particular (testing ...) block?
19:09	technomancy	I was thinking of it like one level deeper than :each
19:09	technomancy	running for every testing block
19:09	stuartsierra	Oh, I see.
19:10	stuartsierra	But (testing...) can be nested!
19:10	technomancy	yeah, I'm not sure if that really makes sense
19:10	technomancy	it's probably not a problem for clojure.test
19:11	stuartsierra	At one point I tried to figure out how to do multi-level hierarchies of tests, with fixtures attaching at any level.
19:11	stuartsierra	I gave up because it seemed too complicated.
19:11	technomancy	I can see that.
19:11	stuartsierra	And I couldn't find any other test framework that could do that.
19:12	stuartsierra	Even RSpec only does fixtures at the class level.
19:12	technomancy	you could make it so adding fixtures inside a testing block makes it run for all enclosed ones
19:12	technomancy	but it's probably not worth it.
19:12	stuartsierra	I think it would have to be a new construct...
19:13	stuartsierra	(deftest foo (with-each-feature feature-fn (testing ...) (testing ...) (testing...)))
19:15	stuartsierra	(with-feature :each\|:once feature-fn & exprs) would eval exprs wrapped in the given feature-fn.
19:15	stuartsierra	I mean with-fixture
19:38	icey	is there a clojure web framework that is particularly well suited for ajax / comet / web application style development? (or one that's better suited for that style of development than others)
20:37	replaca_	getting ready to start the bay area clojure group meeting in SF!
20:38	ju\|io	next one in MV?
21:07	replaca_	ju\|io: I think so. The idea is to alternate
23:53	itistoday	Is Rich's "A deconstruction of object-oriented time" talk available in video from?
23:53	itistoday	*form?
23:54	hiredman	which talk was that?
23:54	itistoday	http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=829268
23:55	hiredman	doesn't sound familiar, so maybe no
23:55	hiredman	the jvmlang talks were supposedly videoed and will be made available
23:56	itistoday	does hickey frequent this channel often? perhaps he knows?
23:57	hiredman	~seen rhickey
23:57	clojurebot	rhickey was last seen quiting IRC, 6396 minutes ago
23:57	hiredman	,(int (/ 6396 60))
23:57	clojurebot	106
23:57	itistoday	,(int (/106 24))
23:57	clojurebot	Invalid token: /106
23:57	hiredman	so like four or five days ago
23:57	itistoday	,(int (/ 106 24))
23:57	clojurebot	4
23:58	itistoday	thanks :-)
23:58	hiredman	~seen rhickey_
23:58	clojurebot	rhickey_ was last seen joining #clojure, 6442 minutes ago
23:58	itistoday	any reason he has two names?
23:58	itistoday	or is that some irc thing meaning I'm away or something?