#clojure – 2009-10-05

2009-10-05

00:00	arbscht	consider passing keyword arguments as a hash-map instead
00:01	rongenre	Yeah I can do that also. Although it makes the function calls look a bit weird, don't you think?
00:01	somnium	you could write a kwfn macro the binds them in a let for you
00:01	somnium	though that might be getting carried away
00:02	rongenre	Ah.. here I go http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/51bb53ca077154f8
00:04	arbscht	rongenre: defnk is in clojure.contrib.def
00:04	arbscht	but I've never seen it used in the wild
00:05	rongenre	Gotcha -- trying to get a feel for what's idiomatic. Is the usual idea just not to use optional params?
00:05	arbscht	I have seen the hash-map of options, though, and it doesn't really look bad
00:05	arbscht	generally, optional args are taken care of with arity overloading
00:06	poet	Anyone using VimClojure have a problem where everything works but the local keybindings?
00:06	poet	function completion, rainbow paren, everything but the local keybindings that are supposed to be set when a .clj file is opned
00:07	rongenre	arbscht: thanks!
00:08	arbscht	clojure code tends to use simple function protocols. there's not much benefit in keyword args, since binding forms inside the function can destructure a hash-map just the same, and it's easy to construct them with literal syntax
00:09	rongenre	Sure, or even a (let [foo (args :foo def) [...]]) looks ok
00:11	arbscht	,((fn [{:keys [a b]}] [a b]) {:a 1 :b 2})
00:11	clojurebot	[1 2]
02:54	LauJensen	asd
02:55	LauJensen	oops - Morning guys
03:17	G0SUB	Hmm, so I am trying to parse an XML structure like this using c.c.lazy-xml http://pastebin.com/d18385f13
03:17	G0SUB	(zfxml/xml-> test-xml :item :email zfxml/text)
03:17	G0SUB	(zfxml/xml-> test-xml :item :name zfxml/text)
03:18	G0SUB	these work fine for me.
03:18	G0SUB	but I want to get the data out in groups all at once.
03:18	G0SUB	instead of ("Foo" "Bar" "Fubar" "Baz") and ("a@b.com" "x@b.com" "s@b.com" "q@b.com"), I want it like (["Foo" "a@b.com"][][]), etc.
03:18	G0SUB	any tips?
03:24	konr	G0SUB: well, you can create a map, I guess
03:24	konr	something like
03:24	konr	,(map #(vec (list %1 %2)) (range 1 10) (list "foo" "bar" "baz" "bak"))
03:24	clojurebot	([1 "foo"] [2 "bar"] [3 "baz"] [4 "bak"])
03:25	G0SUB	konr: yeah, but I was wondering if it can be avoided. I am not too well acquainted with the xml lib.
03:44	Fossi	hi
03:47	wooby	hello
04:26	snowwhite	Is there any debugging tool for clojure?
04:29	LauJensen	~google clojure debugging
04:29	clojurebot	First, out of 12900 results is:
04:29	clojurebot	Clojure - getting_started
04:29	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/getting_started
04:29	Fossi	snowwhite: any java remote debugger will more or less work
04:33	snowwhite	Fossi, ok
04:34	Fossi	i rarely debug though. do people around here do it?
04:34	Fossi	tests and log messages are so much more useful with a lisp imho
04:35	LauJensen	Yea the only time I go out of Emacs is for profiling... but Im thinking now, that there probably is a 'java-profiler-mode' for emacs
04:50	Raynes-	I've never used a debugger.
04:50	Raynes-	Ever.
04:52	Raynes	Whoa, loloh has Factor listed in their languages, but not Clojure. O.O
04:54	jdz	lolwhat?
04:57	Fossi	ohlo i guess
04:59	Raynes	Oops.
04:59	Raynes	ohloh*
04:59	Raynes	jdz: Sorry, I never even noticed I did that. It's quite late here.
05:41	wooby	how would one generate a lazy sequence of random nums?
05:41	wooby	i think i need to use iterate but i'm not sure
05:41	jdz	,(doc repeatedly)
05:41	clojurebot	"([f]); Takes a function of no args, presumably with side effects, and returns an infinite lazy sequence of calls to it"
05:41	wooby	awesome thank you
05:41	jdz	that was just a guess :)
05:42	wooby	i'm still working on my guessing skills ;)
05:47	LauJensen	~def memoize
06:13	LauJensen	Who was it that expressed an interesting in seeing an optimized version of Brians Brain ?
06:24	G0SUB	clojurebot: help
06:24	clojurebot	http://www.khanacademy.org/
06:33	namor_	Hmm, #clojure has more people in it than #scala.
06:34	arbscht	namor: how many bots does #scala have?
06:35	namor	Good question, I have no idea.
06:39	wooby	2 that i know of
07:10	konr	Guys, am I setting a constructor when I extend a class with (def foobar-extension (proxy [Foo] [] (foobar-extension ....)))?
07:12	konr	Also, how can I call the superclass function?
07:12	LauJensen	no and you cant - if I understand proxy correctly
07:13	LauJensen	(doto (foo-extension. ctor1 ctor2) (proxy [foo] (bar foo)) ... will pass a constructor and return an object with the overridden method
07:22	konr	LauJensen: where ctor1 and ctor2 are the arguments of foo or foo-extension's constructor functions?
07:23	LauJensen	foo
07:26	konr	so there is no way to write a constructor function for the extended class?
07:28	LauJensen	~proxy
07:28	clojurebot	proxy is <Chouser> proxy teases with its ease of use, then suddenly betrays.
07:28	LauJensen	Proxy has some show-stopping limitations, when you need to get around them use gen-class or 'new new', which Im not is ready yet
07:29	LauJensen	sgtzx_, licoresse and anyone else who read Brians functional brain, I have a follow up post: http://www.dzone.com/links/brians_transient_brain.html
07:31	licoresse	yup
07:31	licoresse	:-)
07:33	LauJensen	Constructive critisms are as always discouraged :)
07:33	LauJensen	(kidding ofc)
07:54	licoresse	my clojure does not understand transient
07:54	licoresse	,(doc transient)
07:54	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a new, transient version of the collection, in constant time."
07:54	LauJensen	please update :)
07:56	licoresse	trying now
07:56	LauJensen	I'm just in a regular git clone && ant version
07:57	licoresse	I'm not that advanced
07:57	licoresse	after a M-x clojure-update it's all the same
07:57	LauJensen	oh
07:58	licoresse	this is a mess
07:58	licoresse	clojure-version does not mention alpha though
07:59	licoresse	so I guess I need to go over to an alpha-jar or something
08:03	Fossi	LauJensen: nice read, definitely another tool to look forward to
08:04	Fossi	(not being on latest/greatest)
08:04	LauJensen	Yea
08:04	LauJensen	I actually thought this got into 1.0, but it seems I'm so bleeding edge I don't even notice it anymore
08:04	Fossi	then again we haven't even used type hints yet
08:05	LauJensen	we haven't ?
08:05	liwp	LauJensen: have you done something to your syntax highlighting on the blog? Changed a font maybe?
08:05	Fossi	as in, me and my collegue
08:05	LauJensen	liwp - Yea, font-family: mono
08:05	licoresse	LauJensen: It's too small
08:05	liwp	the old one looks better IMO - on windows
08:05	liwp	then again it's all subjective isn't it
08:06	licoresse	liwp: agree, on mac too
08:06	LauJensen	ok - I changed it because of comments actually, so I'll see what people say this time
08:07	liwp	LauJensen: you could try not using bold faces and / or increasing the size a bit...
08:07	LauJensen	liwp, Could I trouble you to email me a screenshot ?
08:08	liwp	LauJensen: sure, give me a minute. DO I have your email address? PM me.
08:08	LauJensen	If not it's in the right column on the blog
08:08	liwp	ahh :)
08:11	Fossi	yeah, monospace fonts are very different size on linux/mac/win :(
08:11	LauJensen	So what do people use? In Emacs I use inconsolata, but that's not gonna fly on the web
08:12	Fossi	can't do much about it really
08:12	liwp	I have no idea what my emacs font is. Is there an easy incantation to find it out?
08:12	liwp	ahh, got it
08:12	LauJensen	oh man that's ugly liwp
08:12	liwp	it's courier
08:13	LauJensen	From now on my blogposts will be a 800x9000 jpeg :)
08:14	liwp	I use courier on putty as well. I tried using other fonts, e.g. inconsolata, but courier seems to look better on an LCD without antialiasing or cleartype
08:14	liwp	I think I use monaco at home on OS X
08:21	licoresse	how can I stop the simulation without restarting slime?
08:21	licoresse	LauJensen: ^^
08:21	LauJensen	change (while true...) to (while @running ..) and set a global atom to true, you can the use (ref-set! running false) to stop it
08:21	licoresse	thx
08:22	LauJensen	np :)
08:23	arbscht	,(doc reset!)
08:23	clojurebot	"([atom newval]); Sets the value of atom to newval without regard for the current value. Returns newval."
08:24	LauJensen	that's the one :)
08:24	licoresse	you're always so helpful!
08:32	mathias`	I am using the clojure.contrib.shell-out package to execute a shell command. How can I make it asynchronous?
08:33	LauJensen	,(doc future)
08:33	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions and yields a future object that will invoke the body in another thread, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent calls to deref/@. If the computation has not yet finished, calls to deref/@ will block."
08:33	chouser	mathias`: It doesn't support asynchronous [yet]. For now you can look at its code and use the Java libs directly as it does.
08:34	mathias`	LauJensen: Will try that.
08:34	chouser	mathias`: what's your use case? I'm still thinking about the best way to add async support.
08:34	ambient	LauJensen thanks for yet another great blog post :)
08:34	LauJensen	ambient, thanks :)
08:36	mathias`	chouser: I have a small compojure app running (started as a service, as root) and want to start mplayer within it. And when I do that I do not get the REPL back (I am using SLIME to connect to the server) until the player is done. To be able to control it (pause, quit etc) I need to get it released so that I can send it commands.
08:37	mathias`	chouser: future seems to work great though
08:37	chouser	mathias`: you don't need to collect output from it along the way?
08:37	mathias`	chouser: nope
08:37	mathias`	chouser: this is just for playing movies via a small web app
08:37	chouser	ah, yep. "future" it is. Or perhaps "agent"
08:43	mathias`	LauJensen: works, thanks!
08:44	LauJensen	sweet, np
10:30	rosejn	Can anyone recommend a good way to block and wait for an asynchronous operation to occur? I'm writing a network client, and in some situations I want to block waiting for a response message. How is this best done in Clojure?
10:31	rosejn	A message handler thread gets all incoming messages, and then somehow I need to forward it to a waiting thread and wake it up.
10:31	rosejn	It doesn't seem like awaiting agents or watcher functions or futures as they are setup in Clojure work for this case...
10:34	rosejn	?
10:34	Fossi	patience... ;)
10:35	duck1123	couldn't you just use an agent, have that agent perform the action that blocks on the IO, and then have it do something (send another agent) once it gets the data?
10:35	duck1123	or is that a bad thing to do in clojure
10:35	duck1123	um, I think it's send-off though
10:36	rosejn	Sorry, I wasn't sure if I was connected to the room since it was so quiet...
10:36	rosejn	The problem is that there isn't an action to perform
10:36	rosejn	I need to wait on a network packet
10:37	rosejn	so I can't use a future or an agent, because there isn't any code to execute.
10:38	rosejn	I can just use something from Java, like wait/notify or some kind of java.util.concurrent queue or something, but I was wondering if there was something that would be cleaner using clojure constructs...
10:39	cgrand	rosejn: promises?
10:39	cgrand	,(doc promise)
10:39	clojurebot	"([]); Experimental. Returns a promise object that can be read with deref/@, and set, once only, with deliver. Calls to deref/@ prior to delivery will block. All subsequent derefs will return the same delivered value without blocking."
10:39	cgrand	,(doc deliver)
10:39	clojurebot	"([promise val]); Experimental. Delivers the supplied value to the promise, releasing any pending derefs. A subsequent call to deliver on a promise will throw an exception."
10:39	rosejn	awesome!
10:40	rosejn	Exactly what I was looking for.
10:40	rosejn	Thanks cgrand. I guess I'd need to be checking diffs of the git tree to know about this?
10:41	rosejn	If only it had a timeout option...
10:44	cgrand	rosejn: you can combine future and promises to mimick timeout
10:44	duck1123	hmm... You could send off an agent thet sleeps, then tries to deliver a null value to the ref. (catching the error on both sides)
10:46	cgrand	rosejn: (.get (future @my-promise) timeout unit)
10:47	rosejn	very cool
10:48	rosejn	I hadn't thought about composing the reference type functionality like this... let alone promises. Thanks
10:52	cgrand	rosejn: or you can poll the future with future-done?
10:53	rosejn	cgrand: how do you know about all of these secret functions?
10:55	rosejn	I guess I should be perusing core.clj...
10:55	Fossi	everybody should :D
10:56	cgrand	rosejn: read core.clj once and then stay up to date by reading commit logs and grepping irc logs -- it works for me
10:57	Chousuke	heh
10:58	rosejn	sounds good.
11:02	ngoc	How to compile a Clojure code to a class that has a static "main" method, so that I can run the method from command line?
11:03	tomoj	ngoc: see http://asymmetrical-view.com/2009/06/22/executable-clojure-jars.html
11:07	vy	ngoc: Also see http://clojure.org/compilation
11:10	ngoc	Thank you, vy's link is much easier to follow
11:32	ngoc	How to access a static class inside a class? Like this one: http://jboss.org/file-access/default/members/netty/freezone/api/3.1/org/jboss/netty/handler/codec/http/HttpHeaders.Names.html
11:34	ngoc	Names is not a function, so HttpHeaders/Names does not work
11:35	stuartsierra	The real Java name for that class is HttpHeaders$Names
11:55	ngoc	stuartsierra: Thanks a lot, this is really tricky
11:56	stuartsierra	np
12:04	ngoc	When doing "assign then process then assign then process", I use (let [x = 1, y = 2...] (process1) (process2) ...). But this seems to create too many nested "let"s. How to solve this problem?
12:16	stuartsierra	let is sequential
12:16	stuartsierra	(let [x 1, y (process1 x), z (process2 y)]...)
12:24	Chousuke	if you don't need the intermediate values, you can do (-> x process1 process2) too
12:24	Chousuke	or just (process2 (process1 x)) :P
12:24	snowwhite	How can i check if "foo" is present in '("bar" "foo")
12:25	Chousuke	anyway
12:25	snowwhite	Chousuke, ?
12:25	Chousuke	snowwhite: you can use the .contains method
12:25	Chousuke	(provided by the Collection interface IIRC)
12:25	snowwhite	Chousuke, checked it only works on maps?
12:26	Chousuke	not contains?, .contains
12:26	ngoc	Chousuke: Do you mean (let [x 1, y (process1 x), (-> x process1 process2)]...) is valid? Sometimes I do not want to assign the result to anything.
12:26	Chousuke	,(.contains '("foo" "bar") "foo")
12:26	clojurebot	true
12:27	Chousuke	ngoc: no
12:27	snowwhite	Chousuke, contains?
12:27	Chousuke	snowwhite: "contains?" does something entirely different from .contains
12:28	chouser	,(contains? #{"foo" "bar"} "foo")
12:28	clojurebot	true
12:28	chouser	,(contains? '("foo" "bar") "foo")
12:28	clojurebot	false
12:28	ngoc	Chousuke: How to write like in C: x = 1, y = 2, do_some_thing(x, y), z = 3, do_some_thing2(y), ...
12:29	mtm	'contains?' vs. '.contains' seems to be a common point of confusion
12:29	chouser	ngoc: you really don't care about the return values of the do_some_things? They're side-effecty?
12:30	ngoc	yes
12:30	Chousuke	ngoc: side-effects are generally bad, but if you don't care about the return values, you can assign them to _
12:30	Chousuke	which conventionally means "I don't care"
12:31	Chousuke	eg, (let [x 1, y 2, _ (evil-fn), z (+ x y)] ...)
12:33	ngoc	For serial programs, is "let" the most used form in Clojure?
12:33	Chousuke	let is very common in any kind of program :P
12:34	Fossi	and yet, you wouldn't need it at all
12:34	Chousuke	true. you can use fn to do most of what let does
12:35	danlei	most?
12:35	Chousuke	not all, because fn doesn't support primitive locals.
12:35	danlei	"primitive"?
12:35	Fossi	"int" etc
12:35	Chousuke	as in, not Object or descendant :P
12:35	technomancy	danlei: unboxed
12:35	danlei	ah, ok
12:36	tomoj	ngoc: serial programs? :(
12:36	ngoc	tomoj: I mean x = 1, y = 2, do_some_thing(x, y), z = 3, do_some_thing2(y), ...
12:36	Fossi	imperative
12:36	ngoc	I feel that most programs are in this way
12:37	Fossi	ngoc: why use a funtional language then?
12:37	Chousuke	most programs in Clojure should not be like that. except locally :)
12:37	Chousuke	you do need some side-effects for every program
12:37	Fossi	with a very good escuse
12:38	Chousuke	but it's not difficult to keep most of the code functional.
12:38	Chousuke	well, hm. not after you get used to it, at least :P
12:38	tomoj	let is such a beautiful thing
12:38	tomoj	I feel you are trying to rape it
12:39	Chousuke	ngoc: let is sometimes useful like that, but you shouldn't see it as a tool to write imperative programs in Clojure.
12:39	raek	(do (side-effects1) (side-effects2) ...) is common when interfacing with imperative code
12:39	raek	like printing or using java classes
12:42	ngoc	Thank you all, I think I must write more in Clojure to feel convenient with the syntax
12:43	Chousuke	I don't think the syntax is the issue. what you need to learn is a whole different way of thinking about your programs :)
12:44	Chousuke	functional programs don't tell the computer what to do, they tell it what you want. :P
12:45	chouser	I've heard that before, but I'm still not sure I buy it.
12:45	Chousuke	of course, this being the real world and all, you often need to pay attention to what the computer actually does, too, eg. when dealing with performance.
12:55	ambient	i dont see any other differenct in functional programming except that mutation is just an implementation of time. with functional programming one has to model time separately
12:56	Chousuke	I don't know if imperative programming languages model time either :/
12:56	Chousuke	it just exists, and you have to deal with it.
12:56	ambient	well they have state and state by definition exists in a point of time
12:57	Chousuke	Rich makes a good point in his newest presentation why having variables is a broken model for state :)
12:58	jfields	I'm trying run a Clojure script with java -classpath "/path/to/jars/*:" clojure.main my_file.clj and I get Exception in thread "main" java.io.FileNotFoundException: my_file.clj (No such file or directory) - my_file.clj is in a jar file that's in the dir that my -classpath points to. Any ideas?
12:59	chouser	jfields: try @my_file.clj instead
12:59	ngoc	How to refer to Java's "this" in a proxy method?
12:59	Chousuke	ngoc: it's "this"
12:59	ngoc	:D
12:59	Chousuke	ngoc: the symbol is implicitly bound inside a proxy form
13:00	jfields	chouser: thanks
13:00	clojurebot	chouser is ruthless about breaking other people's code
13:00	chouser	clojurebot: botsnack
13:01	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
13:01	rsynnott	heh
13:03	ambient	i wish there was a video archive of clojure talks. i hate to use flash :/
13:03	technomancy	+1
13:03	technomancy	sorry, inc
13:04	chouser	how would the archive be distributed?
13:04	ambient	bittorrent if no else
13:04	chouser	ah
13:05	technomancy	youtube and bitly let you download the videos
13:05	technomancy	well, you have to use a script for youtube, but it beats watching it in the browser
13:07	ngoc	Why when declaring a namespace, we write (ns a.b), but when using a namespace we write (use 'a.b) (with a quote?)
13:07	technomancy	ngoc: ns is a macro, while use is a function
13:07	technomancy	so the args to use get evaluated
13:08	ngoc	Why not make them all macros or all functions? So that Clojure looks consistent.
13:09	technomancy	ngoc: you're not supposed to use "use" directly; you should use the ns macro
13:09	sproingie	ns is the thing making it consistent :)
13:12	hiredman	blip.tv lets you download the talks as well
13:12	hiredman	the only clojure talks you cannot download are the ones on infoq
13:12	chouser	import used to be a function but is now a macro
13:14	chouser	The package-importing API isn't finallized yet, I think -- there's been some talk of replacing both 'require' and 'use' with something else, maybe called 'uses'
13:14	hiredman	chouser: it's finalized for 1.0
13:14	chouser	hiredman: so true!
13:14	chouser	probably for 1.1 as well
13:29	danlei	what would the semantics of that "uses" roughly be like?
13:29	danlei	since require and use are quite distinct to me
13:30	chouser	most of what use and require do are in common (finding a clj or class file for a given namespace, loading that and making the namespace available)
13:31	danlei	well, use is a superset of require, ok
13:31	chouser	both even support :as for aliasing the namespace
13:31	danlei	but still they do different things and I can't imagine atm how they shall be merged
13:31	danlei	or, if it's feasible to merge them
13:32	danlei	I always felt about require more as a "module" thing, whereas use is more "namespace" to me
13:32	danlei	(not well said, but maybe it's comprehensible)
13:33	chouser	so the weaknesses I see are (1) use by default refers in all the foreign var names, but I think this should be discouraged, and (2) require doesn't provide any way to refer in specific vars
13:34	chouser	so I'd want a single thing that discourages refering all vars but makes it easy to refer specific vars and/or alias the whole namespace.
13:34	danlei	hm ... I do follow clojure-user but somehow I completely missed this discussion :)
13:35	danlei	I see the point, though
13:35	konr	The first version of my code has 109 lines. A simple java widget that I'm import has almost the triple.
13:35	chouser	there's also been talk of having a default alias per namespace, so perhaps (uses clojure.zip) would be default use the alias zip ... and I like that except that then new words may show up without ever explicitly declaring their origin.
13:35	konr	*ing
13:36	chouser	konr: but half the .java lines are blank except for close-curly-brace. You might have to let those slide. :-)
13:36	danlei	I somehow like that idea (default alias)
13:37	danlei	on the otherhand, typing :as ... doesn't bother me that much
13:37	chouser	danlei: this conversation has come up once or twice here -- I don't think it's ever made it to email.
13:37	danlei	ah, ok
13:37	G0SUB_	Is there any way to write a http client which downloads files in parellel using agents?
13:42	danlei	chouser: about use referring all vars; how about a more "traditional" approach, in that vars are local to a namespace and must be exported in order to be referred by use?
13:42	danlei	s/exported/explicitly exported/
13:43	chouser	danlei: well, that's sort of how it is now. defn creates a "public" var, and defn- a private one -- only public vars are pulled in by 'use'
13:43	danlei	yes, but I'm talking about switching the semantics of defn- and defn
13:43	danlei	or intruducing an (export ...) facility
13:43	chouser	my problem with it is if you 'use' a namespace (or worse a few of them) and then I'm trying to read your code, I can't tell what most of your functions are.
13:44	chouser	that is, I read (fix-up foo) and I have no idea which namespace is providing fix-up
13:44	technomancy	slime helps a lot with that
13:44	stuartsierra	GOSUB_: that's exactly what clojure.contrib.http.agent is designed to do
13:44	G0SUB_	stuartsierra: cool.
13:44	danlei	hm ...
13:45	chouser	technomancy: yes, once you've downloaded and installed all the dependencies, and loaded up the source you're trying to read, right?
13:45	technomancy	chouser: well that's a whole nother mess
13:45	technomancy	a lousy build process is orthogonal to readability
13:46	technomancy	not that I don't think that's important; it bugs me how people act like it's not a problem
13:46	chouser	my point is a perfect build process is orthogonal to readability. :-)
13:47	technomancy	I do agree that it's better to be readable to the un-augmented reader as well; I'm just saying what works for me.
13:48	chouser	technomancy: I'm looking forward to someone solving the dependency and build problem. But even then, all it takes is for some code I'm trying to help with or borrow to use a single proprietary namespace and a few 'use' calls, and I no longer have any clue at all what's going on.
13:49	technomancy	yeah. I tend to do that for "glue" namespaces only. (the shell-zapper namespace calls shell commands on zap-related data, etc.)
13:49	danlei	chouser: I guess I'd prefer aliases to explicitly listing all imported vars as far as that is concerned. I still think that making exported vars the special case and private the default would be feasible.
13:50	chouser	danlei: I don't have an opinion on that -- either default seems fine to me at the moment, I would just like people to be explicit about where they're getting their functions from.
13:51	danlei	chouser: I see ... I already have that problem in my mud client, which is split in 5 namespaces, and I think I'm going to switch to short aliases
13:52	chouser	danlei: yes, I find that to be a nice solution for app-specific namespaces. 3-letter (or even 2- or 1-letter) aliases
13:53	danlei	*nods
13:56	danlei	(btw, that's one thing I really dislike about CL's packages: aliases are there written in the package definition, not when using that package)
14:00	G0SUB_	stuartsierra: is it possible to somehow put some extra meta data in the http-agents? I could use that info in the handler to determine the file name to save the reponse to.
14:10	jfields	what's the correct way to convert "2" to 2?
14:10	jfields	Integer/parse?
14:10	drewr	,(Integer/parseInt "2")
14:10	clojurebot	2
14:10	LauJensen	,(Integer. "2")
14:10	jfields	thanks.
14:10	clojurebot	2
14:10	drewr	,(type (Integer/parseInt "2"))
14:10	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
14:11	stuartsierra	GOSUB_: not sure what you mean
14:11	drewr	oh I didn't realize there was constructor for string
14:12	G0SUB_	stuartsierra: the handler function takes only one arg (the agent). I am dealing with many agents and want to save each response in a different file.
14:13	G0SUB_	stuartsierra: for that purpose I thought I would keep some extra data in the agent itself.
14:13	G0SUB_	stuartsierra: right now, I am doing this (:file-name (:clojure.contrib.http.agent/options @ag))
14:14	G0SUB_	stuartsierra: to access the file name. is there a better way?
14:14	stuartsierra	hmm, I intended the agent to be an opaque object.
14:14	G0SUB_	I need to download data from a bunch of URLs.
14:14	stuartsierra	I'd recommend making your handler function a closure, and creating it with the file name
14:14	G0SUB_	stuartsierra: makes sense.
14:20	wooby	has anyone tinkered with neural networks in clojure?
14:22	G0SUB_	stuartsierra: worked fine. many thanks for the awesome work.
14:23	stuartsierra	welcome
14:32	namor	Hmm, why does println not work from within an agent?
14:32	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
14:33	chouser	,(let [a (agent 42)] (send-off a println))
14:33	clojurebot	#<Agent@916ab8: 42>
14:33	chouser	hm. worked here.
14:33	chouser	namor: happen to be using slime?
14:33	LauJensen	namor, in SLIME it'll show up in the inferior-lisp buffer
14:33	namor	Ah, that's the reason! Yes, I'm using slime. Thanks.
14:34	jfields	is there something in clojure similar to Ruby's array.join?
14:34	technomancy	jfields: str-join in contrib's str-utils, I think
14:34	jfields	technomancy: thanks
14:35	chouser	jfields: or join in clojure.contrib.str-utils2
14:35	LauJensen	,(apply str (interpose "," ["foo" "bar" "baz"]))
14:35	clojurebot	"foo,bar,baz"
14:36	hiredman	chouser: clojurebot's out and such are setup in a binding, so you need to lexically capture and setup a new dynamic binding in the agent action
14:36	LauJensen	jfields, or roll your own
14:36	chouser	hiredman: yeah, I figured.
14:37	hiredman	I still wading through the evolution of lisp
14:37	hiredman	I am
14:38	G0SUB_	stuartsierra: is there any way to limit the number of agents running in parallel? the webserver supports upto 15 parallel connections.
14:39	stuartsierra	GOSUB_: not explicitly. The Clojure agent thread pool will limit it to something like 2 * number_of_cores, though
14:39	chouser	but that limit is only for 'send' not 'send-off'
14:39	chouser	no limit at all on 'send-off'
14:40	stuartsierra	oh, then never mind
14:40	G0SUB_	stuartsierra: that formula doesn't seem to be working, as the server bails out quickly.
14:40	stuartsierra	If you need to control the number of agents/threads, you're probably better off creating your own fixed-size pool of agents and calling an HTTP client (like Apache's) within the action functions.
14:41	G0SUB_	stuartsierra: I can understand. but that's too much pain for an one-off thing like this.
14:41	stuartsierra	I don't know what else to offer.
14:42	stuartsierra	got to go, for now
14:42	G0SUB_	stuartsierra: see you.
14:43	G0SUB_	Is partition lazy?
14:43	chouser	G0SUB_: yes
14:43	G0SUB_	cool
14:45	kotarak	When was intern added?
14:46	kotarak	chouser: neat, alter-var-root trick, btw. :)
14:46	chouser	I think it's very old
14:46	chouser	itern, I mean. alter-var-root is newish
14:46	kotarak	Hmm.. I would have expected it the other way around. alter-var-root old and intern new...
14:46	chouser	intern is in 1.0 -- you need more detail than that?
14:47	kotarak	No.
14:47	kotarak	:)
14:47	chouser	hm, alter-var-root is in 1.0 as well. :-)
14:49	chouser	...and you may be right. "added intern" Nov 26 2008
14:52	chouser	alter-var-root showed up with "isa-based multimethods, a la carte hierarchies" Jul 28 2008
14:53	kotarak	Hehe... I was right for some suitable definition of "new". ;)
14:55	G0SUB_	I have a vector of agents. how do I run await on them?
14:55	G0SUB_	(await [vec1 vec2]) gave an error
14:55	G0SUB_	(await [agent1 agent2]), rather
14:57	hoeck1	GOSUB: maybe: (doseq [a agents] (await a))
14:58	G0SUB_	hoeck1: hmm, would have been great if the vector could be spliced somehow and passed to await all at once.
14:58	megane	or (apply await vec-of-agents)
14:59	G0SUB_	megane: better
15:01	chouser	ah, the implementation of await is so beautiful and simple
15:04	kotarak	Well, it certainly is asynchronous.
15:09	drewr	does clojure.main prefer class files over clj?
15:09	hoeck1	chouser: somehow, I never really enjoyed reading other peoples code, clojure changed this for me by 180 degrees
15:09	kotarak	drewr: it prefers clj if they are newer. If reading from a jar, I think, it always prefers clj.
15:10	kotarak	drewr: at least there was some issue, that, when reading from a jar, it prefered always on over the other. But it may also be the other way around...
15:12	drewr	kotarak: yeah, I was thinking in a jar
15:12	drewr	confusing that it's not consistent
15:17	rosejn	,(doc use)
15:17	clojurebot	"([& args]); Like 'require, but also refers to each lib's namespace using clojure.core/refer. Use :use in the ns macro in preference to calling this directly. 'use accepts additional options in libspecs: :exclude, :only, :rename. The arguments and semantics for :exclude, :only, and :rename are the same as those documented for clojure.core/refer."
15:43	Jetien	hi! is there a reason why the PersistentQueue hasn't made it to the standard api yet?
15:47	chouser	Jetien: my understanding is that it could be easily abused with polling and multi-threading.
15:48	chouser	I think it may also be that there are plans for more general queuing API, and I'm not sure how that might influence how PersistentQueue is exposed.
15:49	chouser	but using PersistentQueue/EMPTY and conjing onto it should be pretty stable.
15:49	Jetien	it's just that sometimes it's mentioned in the api - i.e. in the doc for (peek) - but you can't easily create one
15:49	Jetien	yeah, found your post http://markmail.org/message/brvozelsgmr5a3ba :)
16:06	ambient	hoeck1 what have you read? i'm thinking that would be a good way to learn clojure for me also
16:08	arbscht	ambient: clojure core is a good read
16:09	hoeck1	ambient: clojure code
16:10	hoeck1	ambient: clojure.* and clojure.lang..java, especially the Persistent data structure implementations
16:11	ambient	ok, will do
16:12	wooby	for something like a condp, is there a way to do some kind of pattern matching?
16:13	wooby	a la scala's _
16:13	kotarak	wooby: there are libraries, but Clojure does not provide pattern matching out of the box. let-like things provide destructuring, though.
16:14	kotarak	wooby: what do you want to do with condp? Maybe we can give you a tip
16:15	wooby	kotarak: cool thanks, here's what i'm playing with: http://gist.github.com/202421
16:18	wooby	kotarak: by the way, are you the vimclojure guy?
16:18	kotarak	wooby: And you want more something like #(condp = [(mod % 3) (mod % 5)] [0 0] ... [_ 0] ... %)?
16:18	kotarak	wooby: yes
16:18	wooby	kotarak: thanks! it's awesome
16:19	kotarak	wooby: good to hear you find it useful. :)
16:19	Guest92834	vimclojure <3
16:19	clojurebot	vimclojure is http://kotka.de/projects/clojure/vimclojure.html
16:20	wooby	kotarak: and yes... that's how i'd go about it in scala more or less
16:20	kotarak	wooby: No. That's not possible in Clojure. At least not that I am aware of...
16:21	Chousuke	anything is possible with enough macros :)
16:21	wooby	that's true
16:21	kotarak	Chousuke: hehe, yes. And I know there are libraries doing that.
16:21	wooby	the whole macro thing has been mindblowing
16:22	wooby	i'd never gotten far enough with lisp to get into them... been enjoying the holloway book
16:22	Chousuke	syntactic abstraction is neat, yeah :)
16:25	wooby	i ran into something the other day i thought might be related
16:25	wooby	a macro called condt
16:25	wooby	but i can't find it now
16:25	wooby	anyone heard of it? i think it's in contrib somewheres
16:25	kotarak	it's in clojure.contrib
16:26	kotarak	It uses stuartsierras template thing, IIRC.
16:26	kotarak	It was a possible other version for condp.
16:26	kotarak	Before condp was included.
16:27	wooby	i see
16:39	technomancy	is there a function that combines these two calls? (var-get (ns-resolve 'my-ns 'foo))
16:39	kotarak	@(ns-resolve 'my-ns 'foo)?
16:39	technomancy	(and don't say comp) =)
16:39	technomancy	you can deref vars?
16:39	kotarak	yes, think so.
16:40	technomancy	who'd of thought.
16:40	technomancy	thanks
16:41	kotarak	technomancy: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/603c9e832e855b20 scroll down to Stephen's reply.
16:45	Chousuke	Vars are one of the reference types, so I suppose it makes sense that you can dereference them. :P
16:45	Chousuke	makes me wonder why there is a var-get though.
16:45	Chousuke	since @ works
16:46	technomancy	I never thought of them as references, but it makes sense
16:46	technomancy	I guess I don't work with raw vars hardly at all
16:46	kotarak	Chousuke: maybe it predates the IDeref stuff?
16:46	Chousuke	probably
16:46	kotarak	technomancy: Rich called them in his recent infoq talk a "special case". (or something along the lines...)
16:47	kotarak	I hardly ever use Vars besides definitions.
16:47	perdalum	I've just tried to run a simple example from clojure-neo4j, but I get a java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: javax/transaction/TransactionManager (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0) error in the REPl. Any ideas of what I'm doing wrong?
16:47	kotarak	(There were some cases in the Compiler for the line info of the VC Repl, but that is exceptional case, I guess)
17:01	perdalum	I thought that javax.transaction.* was available without any special (imports …)?
17:03	perdalum	and why can't I import it with (import 'javax.transaction.TransactionManager)? Well, it'll have to wait until the Sn rises again...
17:11	sfuentes	hey chouser
17:11	chouser	sfuentes: hi [I'm barely here]
17:14	sfuentes	was just curious if you have completely abandoned any use of scala
17:18	ambient	capitalization is just useless metadata, really
17:19	sfuentes	ambient: can be classified as shouting ....
17:20	Chousuke	it does make a difference in real writing though :P
17:21	chouser	it helps differentiate chouser from Chousuke
17:22	kotarak	pfff.. not for Colloquy :/
18:02	sfuentes	its so quiet in here
18:05	raek	is there an opposite to (filter)?
18:05	chouser	remove
18:05	raek	ah, thanks!
18:06	hiredman	(filter (comp not …
18:07	technomancy	isn't there already an HOF for (comp not %) ?
18:07	technomancy	complement
18:08	hiredman	comp not is shorter
18:08	technomancy	true
18:09	sfuentes	chouser: so any comment to the scala question?
18:10	chouser	sfuentes: yes, abandoned scala
18:10	hiredman	for great justice
18:15	ambient	you know what you doing.
18:23	wooby	so i'm working on a bitty http server here, running into some io situation if anyone would care to help
18:23	wooby	http://gist.github.com/202551
18:24	wooby	i'm not getting anything from the input stream until the client kills the connection... is this a buffer flush situation?
18:24	wooby	thanks in advance for any help
18:34	hiredman	wooby: println is waiting to realise the entire lazy-seq
18:35	hiredman	(doseq [line (line-seq rdr)] (println line))
18:35	wooby	hiredman: i tried throwing a doall in there to no avail... is there a preferred way to do it?
18:35	wooby	aha
18:36	hiredman	println is trying to print the whole seq at once, so it is waiting until the seq is complete
18:36	wooby	i see
18:36	wooby	and that works perfectly, thank you sir
18:36	hiredman	my pleasure
18:47	technomancy	I hate it when a macro-expansion runs, but it doesn't work as a regular macro call. =\
19:01	hiredman	did you see the other day where the dude was makeing symbols that started with a colon in his macro? and then expansion of his macro expected keywords, so it failed to run, but of course when he pasted the expansion it worked, because the reader read the symbols starting with a colon as keywords
19:01	hiredman	amazing
19:11	chouser	hiredman: that's a bit freaky. It'll be nice to have such kinks worked out
19:12	hiredman	chouser: worked out as in not let people make symbols that start with colons?
19:14	wooby	hiredman: so, the part of the seq i'm trying to realize is the first element... not sure how to do it
19:15	chouser	right
19:15	wooby	i have this: (doseq [path (first (line-seq rdr))] but it's unrolling the first line into a character for each body call
19:15	hiredman	right
19:15	hiredman	forget the doseq
19:15	wooby	which makes sense i suppose, but since doseq itself returns nil... not sure how i get at that first line
19:15	hiredman	(first (line-seq rdr))
19:16	hiredman	that will return the first line "foo" which is handed off to doseq in your example there
19:16	hiredman	and doseq calls seq on it and gets (\f \o \o)
19:16	wooby	oh wow, duh
19:16	hiredman	:)
19:17	wooby	i was getting all caught up in forcing it but i guess if i just ask for the first it hooks me up
19:17	wooby	thanks again man
19:17	wooby	this is so much fun
19:18	lisppaste8	technomancy pasted "bizarre binding behaviour" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88259
19:18	technomancy	that snippet results in "Var minions/info is unbound."
19:18	technomancy	or I guess user/info if you run it there
19:18	technomancy	but clearly binding is getting called
19:19	hiredman	lisp paste error
19:19	technomancy	weak sauce. here it is again: http://p.hagelb.org/bizarre-bindings.html
19:21	sfuentes	its very uncommon to try to do OOP in clojure, correct?
19:21	dysinger	no
19:21	dysinger	:)
19:21	hiredman	unfortunately not
19:22	dysinger	what I meant is that java interop is OOP
19:23	hiredman	technomancy: info# or ~'info in the macro
19:23	hiredman	~'info I guess
19:23	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
19:23	hiredman	clojurebot: buzz off
19:23	clojurebot	No entiendo
19:23	technomancy	hiredman: yeah, we want symbol capture I guess is the problem
19:24	sfuentes	well i mean "pure" clojure ...
19:25	dysinger	sfuentes: yeah I haven't seen any OOP clojure
19:25	sfuentes	ok. thought so, but was curious.
19:25	hiredman	~google clojure socrates
19:25	clojurebot	First, out of 46 results is:
19:25	clojurebot	#clojure log - Dec 01 2008
19:25	clojurebot	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-12-01.html
19:26	hiredman	ha ha
19:26	technomancy	hiredman: ~'info just makes it bind info in the caller namespace rather than the ns that contains the macro, right?
19:26	technomancy	if you're in the same ns, it shouldn't make a difference
19:35	wooby	is there a way to get the argument list as a vector?
19:36	lisppaste8	danlei pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88261
19:36	danlei	oh ... too late
19:36	hiredman	technomancy: eh?
19:37	hiredman	(binding [~'info @(ns-resolve the-ns# 'info)] …)
19:38	danlei	well ... look at my paste
19:38	danlei	isn't that what you wanted?
19:38	danlei	I'm not sure, but just 'info would expand to user/info
19:38	danlei	and I'm not sure if that's wanted
19:39	hiredman	,`'info
19:39	clojurebot	(quote sandbox/info)
19:39	hiredman	hmmm
19:39	danlei	`'~'info
19:39	danlei	,`'~'info
19:39	clojurebot	(quote info)
19:39	danlei	ugly as hell, but ... shrug
19:40	technomancy	ah; quote-unquote-quote on the _other_ info
19:40	technomancy	gotcha
19:40	technomancy	wow
19:41	danlei	:)
19:42	technomancy	what's the difference there then?
19:42	technomancy	they look like they macro-expand to the same thing
19:43	hiredman	really?
19:43	technomancy	according to macroexpand-1
19:44	danlei	what exactly expands to the same thing?
19:44	technomancy	'~'info vs 'info
19:44	danlei	'foo -> user/foo, ~'foo -> foo, '~' -> 'foo
19:44	danlei	at least in my macroexpand-1
19:45	hiredman	technomancy: it's syntax quote that qualifies symbols
19:45	hiredman	so you need to include syntax quote (like in the macro) to see what is going on
19:45	hiredman	,`info
19:45	clojurebot	sandbox/info
19:45	hiredman	,`~'info
19:45	clojurebot	info
19:46	hiredman	,`'~'info
19:46	clojurebot	(quote info)
19:46	hiredman	hmmm
19:46	danlei	hmmm?
19:47	hiredman	I don't think you need '~' there
19:47	hiredman	just ~' again
19:47	danlei	hm
19:47	danlei	well, if it should expand to 'foo, then you'd have to, I guess
19:47	hiredman	,(cons '2' (seq 4))
19:47	clojurebot	(2 seq 4)
19:47	danlei	and ns-resolve takes a symbol
19:47	technomancy	hiredman: cool; thanks for the explanation
19:47	technomancy	yeah, I need the double-quote
19:48	hiredman	danlei: ooooh
19:48	hiredman	macros :)
19:48	danlei	:)
19:48	technomancy	just when you think you understand 'em...
19:48	danlei	... you should use macroexpand ;)
19:49	technomancy	danlei: macroexpand told me it was just info
19:49	technomancy	not user/info
19:50	danlei	I just wanted to make your sentence complete :)
19:50	technomancy	oh... crap
19:50	danlei	in your case it was ` that caused confusion
19:50	technomancy	slime's macroexpand does the wrong thing
19:50	technomancy	it conflates user/info with info
19:50	technomancy	gah!
19:50	danlei	huh?
19:51	sfuentes	anyone use a mac in here?
19:51	technomancy	danlei: slime's macroexpand gives me (do (binding [info @(ns-resolve 'clojure.contrib.logging 'info)] info))
19:51	technomancy	where the second-to-last info there is actually 'user/info
19:51	technomancy	I guess it assumes they're the same thing.
19:51	technomancy	yuck
19:52	danlei	I just tested on cygwin, latest slime and it does 'foo for the '~', and user/foo for plain 'foo in the macro
19:52	danlei	so it works here
19:53	technomancy	danlei: using C-c RET?
19:53	danlei	well, M-x slime-macroexpand-1
19:53	technomancy	looks like the same thing
19:53	technomancy	weird
19:53	technomancy	are you on clojure 1.1?
19:54	danlei	built it yesterday
19:55	danlei	btw is there a way to get the clojure version from the repl?
19:55	technomancy	,(clojure-version)
19:55	clojurebot	"1.1.0-alpha-SNAPSHOT"
19:55	danlei	ah, thanks
19:55	technomancy	danlei: quite strange; I can't duplicate that behaviour.
19:55	danlei	hm
19:56	danlei	strange indeed
19:56	danlei	clojure is alpha-snapshot, cygwin emacs, slime/swank-clojure/clojure-mode built yesterday or the day before
19:57	technomancy	danlei: jochu's swank-clojure or mine?
19:57	danlei	jochu's
19:57	technomancy	hmm... I haven't been paying attention to his
19:59	danlei	I'll double-check, just to be sure
20:00	danlei	definitely works over here
20:00	technomancy	I need to take a look at his branch anyway.
20:01	danlei	he recently merged with stuart(?)
20:01	technomancy	yeah, he pulled in a big wad of maven dependencies
20:01	danlei	yes
20:01	technomancy	that's why I've been putting it off. =)
20:01	danlei	:)
20:01	technomancy	(I like maven better than the alternative, but you can use maven and keep it simple.)
20:01	danlei	I had some trouble yesterday
20:02	danlei	because I don't like that clojure-install stuff, and don't know much about maven
20:02	danlei	then I got it to build, but my completion was gone
20:02	danlei	don't ask me how I got it working ...
20:02	danlei	but now it works again
20:03	technomancy	you just like handling the checkouts yourself, or is it something else about M-x clojure-install?
20:04	danlei	well, it said my clojure was already installed and broke of. besides, I want to know what's going on, and I connect via swank.swank/server-start anyway
20:05	danlei	so I just want to build my swank.clojure.jar and that's it
20:06	danlei	swank.swank/server-start & slime-connect, to be correct
20:06	danlei	*start-server
20:08	danlei	but I'm still not sure why my completion wouldn't work
20:09	danlei	I think it was that ;(remove-ns 'swank.commands.completion) line in swank.commands.completion, but I'm not sure
20:09	danlei	rebuilt it after messing around and it worked
20:22	danlei	technomancy: btw. are you aware of the (read)/(read-line) problem under win? If I do a (read) or (read-line) in the slime-repl, It will hang
20:23	technomancy	danlei: it's not just a windows thing; swank just plain doesn't connect in right
20:23	danlei	hm, is there a way to get around that?
20:23	technomancy	probably... I kind of inherited swank-clojure without really understanding large portions of it
20:23	clojurebot	clojure is a language to use if you want to up your game
20:23	technomancy	it could be trivial to fix; I just haven't written any programs that use in yet. =)
20:23	danlei	I see
20:24	danlei	ok, I don't understand large portions of swank-clojure either atm
20:24	danlei	but if I get the time to investigate and find a solution, I'll let you know
20:24	technomancy	I think only jochu does, and he doesn't write clojure any more. =\
20:24	technomancy	cool
20:25	danlei	it used to work, some time ago
20:25	danlei	anyway, I think I should call it a day
20:39	slashus2	What happened to jochu?
21:56	somnium	is anyone aware of any projects or wrappers for BerkeleyDB? I found one mailing list post but the repository seems to have vanished.
21:56	somnium	just wondering before I start rolling my own
23:36	hiredman	clojurebot: tupac is <reply> when I write functions I go blind and let the lambda do its thing
23:36	clojurebot	Ok.