#clojure – 2009-10-04

2009-10-04

00:15	lisppaste8	steiger pasted "Can someone explain to me this behavior?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88140
00:23	steiger	seems like a bug to me
00:26	hiredman	what does dist-map say now?
00:28	steiger	test> dist-map
00:28	steiger	#<Ref@7673a2: {}>
00:28	steiger	if I remove the last exp, (prn @dist-map), the function works as expected
00:29	hiredman	anyway
00:30	hiredman	it works here on 1.0 and a snap shot of git master
00:31	hiredman	I'd restart your repl and try again
00:31	steiger	i'm running clojure-box and it doesn't work here. (clojure-version) shows "1.0.0-"
00:31	steiger	i guess i'll update
00:32	hiredman	I tried it on 1.0.0- (the download from clojure.org) it worked like expected
00:33	hiredman	if you haven't yet, restart the repl and try from scratch
00:34	konr	Where can I find clojure examples of java interoperability, particularly, uses of the proxy macro?
00:36	steiger	hiredman did it. still not working. this is very weird
00:36	hiredman	http://delicious.com/clojurebot/pastbin
00:37	hiredman	I'm tempted to just blame emacs (being a vim guy)
00:40	briancarper	steiger: map is lazy, so I think the guts of initialize-dist-map are never evaluated in your second version of init.
00:41	briancarper	Try using dorun or doseq.
00:42	steiger	briancarper hmm.. makes sence
00:42	steiger	*sense
00:43	steiger	briancarper worked :) thanks
00:43	steiger	hiredman thankyou also
00:45	hiredman	ah
00:45	hiredman	I wasn't reseting dist-map between runs
00:45	hiredman	no wonder
01:38	mikem	The repl started in VimClojure (with <LocalLeader>sr) doesn't like to output test results (functions defined with deftest from clojure.test). The clojure REPL launched from the command line does.
01:39	mikem	has anyone encountered this before?
03:00	adityo	(import '(java.math sqrt))
03:00	adityo	what am i doing wrong?
03:00	slashus2	adityo: You can do just (Math/sqrt 5)
03:01	adityo	slashus2: okie so i dont need to import it?
03:01	slashus2	no
03:01	slashus2	That is correct.
03:02	adityo	okie thanks
03:03	slashus2	You are very welcome.
03:07	hiredman	there is no java.math, iirc
03:07	hiredman	it is java.lang.Math
03:07	hiredman	and Math is not a namespace, it is a utility class
03:08	hiredman	which means it is a class with a lot of static methods
03:08	adityo	allright..much clearer now
03:12	hoeck1	hiredman: there is a java.math package, it houses the BigDecimal and BigInteger classes
03:15	hiredman	hoeck1: pardon me
03:47	konr	How can I turn `e.getActionCommand( ).equals("Metal")` into clojure? (.. e getActionCommand equals "Metal")?
03:53	hoeck1	konr: or (-> e .getActionCommand (.equals "Metal))
03:54	hoeck1	konr: or (= "Metal" (.getActionCommand e))
03:57	konr	hoeck1: thanks!
04:01	hoeck1	konr: the dotted-methodname syntax is preferred these days, and (. ) is only used in macros expanding to method calls
04:10	milep	can I assign multiple variables like in Ruby x, y = [1, 2]?
04:11	slashus2	,(let [[a b] [1 2]] [b a])
04:11	clojurebot	[2 1]
04:12	milep	ok, thanks
05:03	konr	Should a (println "foo") print "foo" on the repl everytime it is evaluated, or the output can be redirected somewhere?
05:11	LauJensen	konr the output can be redirected, and in slime/emacs this sometimes happends without you asking for it, ie when using threads :)
05:11	LauJensen	,(with-out-str (println "hi there"))
05:11	clojurebot	"hi there\n"
05:18	konr	LauJensen: haha, I knew! Thanks!
05:53	namor	Hmm, I found this fibonacci example from wikibooks, but I get the error message: Unable to resolve symbol: lazy-cons in this context
05:53	namor	Where did lazy-cons go?
05:56	hoeck1	namor: it has been replaced by lazy-seq some time ago
05:57	hoeck1	namor: lazy-cons was too eager, it always computed the first value of the lazy seq
05:59	namor	I see. But I don't understand lazy-seq from just reading the api docs.. Lazy-cons was somewhat obvious if you come from lisp.
06:00	namor	How would you recursively build a list with lazy-seq?
06:03	lisppaste8	hoeck pasted "lazy-seq fib" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88148
06:03	hoeck1	namor: like ^
06:04	namor	Thanks!
06:04	hoeck1	namor: so you basically wrap your list building code with lazy-seq
06:21	angerman	can I ask clojure for a list of all files in ./*/.wav?
06:28	yason	angerman: use file-seq and filter what you need from there
06:39	konr	I'm using swing, so it's hard to see the exceptions. Is there a way to capture every one of them and save in a file, or something like that?
06:47	konr	Is Java's System.exit(0) the same as ((. System exit) "0"))?
06:49	Chousuke	no
06:49	Chousuke	it's (. System (exit 0))
06:49	Chousuke	or, better: (System/exit 0)
06:50	Chousuke	. is a "low-level" operator and it's usually better to instead use the sugary forms provided. :)
06:52	Chousuke	ie. (.method obj args...) for methods and instance fields and (Class/staticMethod args...) for static methods or fields
06:52	Chousuke	,Math/PI ; no parens needed for static fields, either
06:52	clojurebot	3.141592653589793
07:00	konr	Chousuke: hmm, so in the case of System.err.println("foo"), I can use (System/err/println "foo")?
07:00	Chousuke	konr: no, that's different.
07:00	Chousuke	err is an object
07:01	Chousuke	so (.println System/err "foo")
07:03	Chousuke	or (binding [out err] (println "foo")) :P
07:08	konr	interesting! Can I bind out to a file?
07:09	konr	(handle)
07:10	Chousuke	any Writer object
07:10	Chousuke	(doc with-out-str)
07:10	clojurebot	"([& body]); Evaluates exprs in a context in which out is bound to a fresh StringWriter. Returns the string created by any nested printing calls."
07:11	Chousuke	you could make a similar macro, but for a file :)
07:47	cypher23	hello all, I put my clojure startup script online, maybe someone will find this useful: http://blog.nuclearsquid.com/writings/clj-startup-script
08:57	angerman	did anyone write a sould play wrapper for clojrue?
09:22	LauJensen	In Rich's description of transients .org/transients, he says that the return value must be captured and that thusly transients are not meant to be 'bashed into place', but why then, does this work? (def t (transient [1 2 3])) (assoc! t 1 10) (persitent! t) ?
09:24	hoeck1	LauJensen: by accident?
09:25	LauJensen	Its a bug?
09:25	angerman	how would I do something like reading from one stream and writing to another with clojure?
09:25	angerman	with java one would usually take some byte buffer, and loop until all is thogh
09:25	hoeck1	LauJensen: no, you just shouldn't do it this way, its not expected to work
09:26	LauJensen	so now that we can see that it does - that must constitute a bug, or a least unintended behaviour
09:27	hoeck1	LauJensen: of course, we could ad numerous modifiers to the language to forbid certain uses of things
09:29	hoeck1	LauJensen: to me, its roughly the same like (while (< x 10) (def x (inc x))), you shouldn't do that too, but its not a bug that it works
09:29	LauJensen	Ok - I don't see it that way
09:30	yason	angerman: check out clojure.contrib.duck-streams, there's (copy ...) for that
09:38	danlei	I see that swank-clojure's build.xml is gone. how would I just build swank-clojure.jar without using that clojure-install stuff now?
09:54	angerman	yason: thanks :)
09:54	angerman	how do i instantiate a static class?
09:54	angerman	this one: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/javax/sound/sampled/DataLine.Info.html
10:01	dliebke	angerman: (javax.sound.sampled.DataLine$Info. lineClass format)
10:06	angerman	dliebke: ohh thanks.
10:06	angerman	forgot about the $ notation
10:07	angerman	hmm, how can I call a multimethod straight?
10:07	angerman	I want to use copy.
10:07	angerman	but copy is a multimethod that switches on the types of the classes
10:08	angerman	but I know I want to call (defmethod copy [InputStream OutputStream] ...
10:09	dliebke	hmm, that's a good question. I don't know if you can call a multimethod directly (like you can in R)
10:10	angerman	hmm. well. looks like I'm gonna copy'n'paste :)
10:10	angerman	it's not clean though. I like the protocol idea better. why not make sure both objects just adhere to those methods you want to call with the given signature?
10:11	blitz_	how do I use clojure-contrib from within slime? it seems I have to add it to the classpath. but how?
10:12	angerman	blitz_: doing that post-init is not really possible i think.
10:12	angerman	you have to tweak your init paths
10:12	danlei	blitz_: add-classpath from the repl ("post-init") or swank-clojure-extra-classpaths in your .emacs
10:12	angerman	danlei: does that add-classpath really work?
10:12	blitz_	thx
10:12	danlei	yes, it works
10:13	angerman	danlei: hmm... i must have made something wrong then
10:13	danlei	it's considered bad style for anything but playing around though
10:13	blitz_	danlei: it is already in my classpath... strange
10:13	danlei	use it like this (add-classpath "file:///c:/.../my.jar")
10:15	danlei	it's in your classpath and doesn't work?
10:15	blitz_	danlei: sorry. it works. don't know what I did wrong
10:15	danlei	ok
10:16	angerman	http://gist.github.com/201412
10:16	angerman	whee :)
10:17	angerman	finally
10:17	angerman	now I just need to figure out how to work with unicode filenames :(
10:17	angerman	user> (.getName file-obj);; => "?.wav"
11:02	angerman	how can I make clojure handle japanese characters in the repl?
11:05	raek_	angerman: where are you using the REPL? in a terminal? emacs?
11:06	angerman	emacs
11:06	angerman	i though it should support unicode
11:06	angerman	so the int value of the charater is 12354
11:06	angerman	being the unicode codepoint for あ
11:07	raek_	I have no problem using UTF-8 encoded unicode characters in the REPL in my UTF-8 configured terminal
11:07	raek_	,"åäö"
11:07	clojurebot	"åäö"
11:07	raek_	,"あ"
11:07	clojurebot	"あ"
11:07	angerman	but for some reason when I do (prn my-str) it fails.
11:07	angerman	raek_: well, I'm not entering it that way. it's the filename
11:08	raek_	,(prn "あ")
11:08	clojurebot	"あ"
11:08	raek_	ok
11:09	raek_	maybe java doesn't know which coding your filenames are in
11:09	danlei	how I love it ... an innocent "git pull" in swank-clojure, and nothing works anymore :)
11:09	raek_	to me, this looks like a java issue
11:10	raek_	angerman: what happens when you run (seq (.getName file-obj)) ?
11:11	raek_	does it treat the character boundaries right?
11:11	angerman	,(prn "\u3042")
11:11	clojurebot	"あ"
11:11	angerman	hmm ok.
11:11	angerman	so it must be something with my repl-emacs bridge
11:12	angerman	raek_: no, it seems the file is read correctly
11:14	angerman	basically when I enter (prn "\u3042") at the repl in emacs I get a "?"
11:20	angerman	wow
11:20	angerman	here we go
11:20	angerman	(set-language-environment "UTF-8")
11:20	angerman	(setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix)
11:20	angerman	why that wasn't default ... puzzledme
12:24	crios	hello. I don't understand this.
12:24	crios	:
12:24	crios	,(cons '2' (seq 4))
12:24	clojurebot	(2 seq 4)
12:24	crios	but:
12:24	crios	,(seq 4)
12:24	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Integer
12:25	crios	How is 'cons' working there?
12:28	ambient	cons isn't probably trying to evaluate seq as a functino
12:29	ambient	it just directly takes the list as input
12:30	ambient	which is weird because (cons 2 (df ij gh)) doesnt really work
12:31	crios	,(cons '2' ((seq 4)))
12:31	clojurebot	(2 (seq 4))
12:31	crios	yes, I understand your point ambient, but it is weird
12:33	crios	(doc cons)
12:33	clojurebot	"([x seq]); Returns a new seq where x is the first element and seq is the rest."
12:35	crios	so, if the second parameter would be evaluated, the doc would say "and seq is an expression which after evaluation become the rest"?
12:45	hiredman	crios: clojure doesn't single quote strings
12:45	hiredman	(cons '2' (seq 4)) => (cons '2 '(seq 4))
12:46	hiredman	,('seq 4)
12:46	clojurebot	nil
12:46	hiredman	er
12:46	hiredman	,'(seq 4)
12:46	clojurebot	(seq 4)
12:46	crios	so the second parameter (seq 4) is read as a string?
12:47	hiredman	no
12:47	hiredman	it is quoted
12:47	crios	ah ok, the second '
12:47	hiredman	,(cons "2" (seq 4))
12:47	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Integer
12:47	hiredman	,(cons 2 (seq 4))
12:47	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Integer
12:47	hiredman	,(cons 2 '(seq 4))
12:47	clojurebot	(2 seq 4)
12:48	crios	my first argument should be a character
12:48	crios	'2'
12:48	hiredman	no
12:48	crios	at least, my intention
12:48	hiredman	characters are preceded by \
12:48	hiredman	\2
12:48	hiredman	,(class \2)
12:48	clojurebot	java.lang.Character
12:49	crios	,'2'
12:49	clojurebot	2
12:49	hiredman	no
12:49	hiredman	try calling class on that
12:49	hiredman	(you cannot do it)
12:50	hiredman	'a' is not a character literal
12:50	crios	yes, you are right
12:50	hiredman	it is a quoted symbol followed by another quote, so the following form will also be quoted
12:51	crios	I have to refresh that basic topic! (too much different languages lately!)
12:51	crios	thanks
12:52	Kototama	hi, i want to sort a list of list by length, can somebody explain me why (sort-by count '('(a b c) '(xx) '(aa bb cc dd) '(oo)) ) dont' do the job?
12:52	hiredman	(cons '2' (seq 4)) is kind of trippy, it took me a beat or two to realize what was going on
12:52	hiredman	Kototama: that's an aweful lot of qouting
12:53	hiredman	,(sort-by count '((a b c) (xx) (aa bb cc dd) (oo)))
12:53	clojurebot	((xx) (oo) (a b c) (aa bb cc dd))
12:53	hiredman	,''(aa)
12:53	clojurebot	(quote (aa))
12:56	Kototama	oh ok
12:56	Kototama	thx you :)
13:49	ambient	how do i autocomplete stuff that is in clojure.contrib in emacs?
13:50	dmiles_afk	rhickey wrote dotlisp yers ago . and now write clojure.. clojure is alot better?.. but i am seeing some things in .NET like event that JVM doesnt support.. i wonder about ClojureCLR if it will have these things
13:51	dmiles_afk	ClojureCLR > DotLisp > Clojure
13:51	dmiles_afk	">" greater than
13:51	hiredman	eh?
13:51	dmiles_afk	right now i am up in the air about: DotLisp "what is here?" Clojure
13:52	dmiles_afk	DotLisp was in my interpretation the prototype of clojure
13:52	hiredman	are you actually writing any code?
13:52	dmiles_afk	mostly interpreting users code
13:52	ambient	i heard .NET supports TCO
13:52	dmiles_afk	but written a bit of DotLisp
13:53	dmiles_afk	which is clojure basically
13:53	hiredman	eh?
13:54	dmiles_afk	well i am trying to decide.. if i should replace the DotLisp.dll with Clojure
13:54	hiredman	there are surface syntax similarities
13:55	dmiles_afk	then trying to decide between ClojureCLR vs CLojure.IKVM.Compile
13:55	dmiles_afk	then trying to decide between ClojureCLR vs CLojure.IKVM.Compiled
13:55	hiredman	are you sure you want to go with the clr over the jvm?
13:55	dmiles_afk	Clojure.IKVM.Compiled (i tested this one and it basically works)
13:56	dmiles_afk	well the rest of the project is CLR.. but really i love the JVM more
13:56	dmiles_afk	and the only reason .NET/CLR sucks is the perfomarnce.. deep down is a little better
13:56	hiredman	I would go with the actaully port of clojure to clr over ikvm
13:57	dmiles_afk	so i live with performance degrdation for the ValueType feature
13:57	hiredman	a minivan has more cup holders than a ferrari
13:57	dmiles_afk	yeah i probly a mini van guy
13:58	dmiles_afk	ok i shall really give ClojureCLR a chance
13:59	dmiles_afk	just was scared its going to (eventualy if not now) get neglected
14:00	dmiles_afk	(when something neat happens the the Clojure JVM world - not propogate)
14:01	notallama	i think the plan is to rewrite clojure in itself. so in the long run at least, the ports shouldn't get hurt.
14:02	dmiles_afk	yet ClojureCLR has chances at features regular Clojure wishes the JVM could provide
14:02	cypher23	anyone knows why this happens: java.lang.SecurityException: class "javax.media.opengl.GL"'s signer information does not match signer information of other classes in the same package (core.clj:9)
14:03	cypher23	I get this while trying to use Penumbra (http://github.com/ztellman/penumbra), and typing "(use 'examples.gears)" in the REPL
14:03	dmiles_afk	"rewrite clojure" - less progress in the shortterm but stll a good thing
14:03	cypher23	I'm on Snow Leopard, Clojure is the latest version from GitHub
14:05	notallama	is mono any good? my plan is to avoid clr like the plague anyway, but i'm curious.
14:07	Guest92834	why avoid it? it kicks ass
14:07	Makoryu	notallama: The big issue looming over Mono right now is the conservative garbage collector
14:16	notallama	it's bassically that it comes from microsoft. microsoft stuff costs money, so if i'm not being paid to use it, i'm not going near it.
14:18	dmiles_afk	mono is only 1/2 th speed of the jvm usually
14:19	dmiles_afk	well sometimes 1/4 .. but other than that it uses less memory for the same tasks
14:19	hiredman	how are you measuring that?
14:20	dmiles_afk	i large Lisp app framework (like larkc)
14:20	dmiles_afk	a large Lisp app framework (like larkc) .. originaly written in java.. it compiles lisp code to .java files... but also targeting .cs
14:21	notallama	could it be that it's more aggressive when compiling to .java?
14:22	dmiles_afk	so the comarison is slightly skewed.. but when we rewrite parts (not translatated) we end up feeling this way
14:22	dmiles_afk	it is.
14:22	dmiles_afk	the unbaiser is that more of the .cs was hand written
14:23	dmiles_afk	so even though the the .java is more mature.. the .cs is sometimes better done
14:23	notallama	that doesn't sound terribly scientific
14:24	dmiles_afk	so times a human wrote both.. you end up going.. wow "mono sure uses up less memory.. god i wish it was fast as java"
14:24	hiredman	how are you measuring that?
14:24	hiredman	by that I mean the memory use
14:24	raek_	cypher23: I got a similar problem when I tried to use compojure
14:24	cypher23	raek_, did you solve it? how?
14:25	hiredman	mono tends to be more dynamic about memory use
14:25	raek_	in my case the problem was that I had multiple versions of jetty
14:25	dmiles_afk	for instance the FIXNUM cache in java is 500mb .. in csharp 0mb
14:25	raek_	so java loaded som classes from one place and other from another place
14:25	hiredman	dmiles_afk: how are you measuring that?
14:25	raek_	so the signatures didn't match package-internally
14:26	dmiles_afk	hiredman: that 500 vs 0 mb.. just in profilers.. the speed is more some benchmarks
14:26	dmiles_afk	the profiling though for mono was more ran .NET (not really mono)
14:26	dmiles_afk	but the memory consumption ti start the app framework in jjava is 6GB and in Mono onlly 1.5 mb
14:27	raek_	I had installed jetty with apt-get, and the other version was included with compojure
14:27	dmiles_afk	but thats of course our fault the java is that big.. the methoogy can be changed slightly
14:27	hiredman	I would be surprised if under load the memory usage was that different, but the jvm tends to hang on to unused memory (incase it needs it again)
14:27	raek_	but when I removed jetty from my system and used the jar supplied by compojure, everytihng worked
14:28	dmiles_afk	hiredman: difference is ValueTypes vs Objects representing Data
14:28	raek	so I guess that you have duplicate jars somewhere, cypher23
14:28	cypher23	raek, k. I'll search for that
14:28	raek	if your problem is the same as mine, that is
14:29	dmiles_afk	in mono we get to not have to use objects.. unstead .. byvalue structs
14:29	dmiles_afk	instead .. byvalue structs
14:29	hiredman	makes sense I guess
14:29	hiredman	if only ram were dirt cheap...
14:29	dmiles_afk	in java every float/integer has to be an object
14:30	dmiles_afk	in clr.. they are just a byvalue thing
14:30	hiredman	still an object, just an object on the stack instead of the heap?
14:31	dmiles_afk	yeah.. they are not on heap.. but ctually they are TAGGED type
14:31	dmiles_afk	like a Union
14:31	dmiles_afk	some union values denote objects
14:31	dmiles_afk	some numbers
14:32	notallama	the jvm decides it it should allocate on the stack or heap, right? or does it always go for heap?
14:32	dmiles_afk	right JVM has locally stacked up objects
14:32	dmiles_afk	they might end up on heap if the program make them
14:33	dmiles_afk	our app startup makes a in memory table of 4 million rows times 10 columns.. bwe foree you even get a REPLK
14:33	hiredman	I could wrong but I am pretty sure the jvm allocates on the heap
14:34	dmiles_afk	our app startup makes a in memory table of 4 million rows times 10 columns.. beforee you even get a REPL
14:34	hiredman	at least hotspot
14:34	hiredman	I think jrockit does some kind of escape analysis to allocate on the stack
14:35	dmiles_afk	yeah jrocket find places to keep them off the heap
14:35	hiredman	the same place I heard that jrockit does that I also heard it doesn't make a big difference
14:35	dmiles_afk	where the sun thing might make them pass thru gen0
14:36	dmiles_afk	yeah surprisingly just the standard sun jvm still kicks their butts
14:36	dmiles_afk	or less than 0.1% differnce
14:36	hiredman	♥ hotspot
14:37	dmiles_afk	i cant say for sure.. i think java is finalyl doing it right.. where .. mono/.NET has huge room for imporvemnt
14:37	dmiles_afk	but once they catch up (4 more years?) jvM will be wishing for ValueTypes
14:37	hiredman	the jvm has been around a lot longer
14:38	dmiles_afk	jvm has built in ValueTypes int,int[],float,float[],Object, etc
14:39	dmiles_afk	but .NET lets users define more
14:39	notallama	i'm cooking up a toy vm/language of my own right now. i somehow doubt it will be as nice as hotspot, though
14:40	jmork	hello, I have a very basic enclojure question and haven't had much luck from their google group or #enclojure so I figured I'd ask here since someone may know. Should my clojure program stop on a line breakpoint set within the clojure source if I run it in debug mode?
14:42	dmiles_afk	notallama: include stucts and ValueTypes and unions ;)
14:43	dmiles_afk	*structs
14:45	chouser	unions? really?
14:46	dmiles_afk	well so people can use {int mytype, ...somepadding...}
14:46	dmiles_afk	or whatnot
14:46	hiredman	:(
14:46	hiredman	padding? really?
14:47	dmiles_afk	yeah not the best design.. but at least the user has the rope
14:47	hiredman	unless you calling out to C all the time...
14:47	milep	how can I have a sorted map by values? (keys are structs and values integers and all integer are not unique)?
14:47	hiredman	defining interfaces based on the size of structures in memory :(
14:48	dmiles_afk	i know bad actually that is why the java version of the app framework runs 40% faster than the C version
14:48	dmiles_afk	the C versio is always tearing down its local allocations
14:49	notallama	my vm will be pretty crude in that sense. structs and pointers. no unions.
14:49	dmiles_afk	(the app framework i refered to earlier)
14:49	hiredman	I cannot see why you would to "pad" a datastructure in java
14:49	dmiles_afk	right the C version does.. not the java verion
14:49	dmiles_afk	the java version cant :)
14:49	hiredman	I know, but even if you could, what would be the point?
14:50	hiredman	my brain hurts just trying to reason out how that would work and why you would want it
14:50	dmiles_afk	in C, evryone hoped the C compiler could do really smart things .. so they "just got used"
14:51	dmiles_afk	the C version was written by john mccarthy 30 years ago
14:51	notallama	c is fun stuff.
14:51	notallama	except the infix.
14:51	dmiles_afk	i think when he worked for Cycorp.. that was all that was available
14:51	hiredman	C will eat your children
14:52	Chousuke	hiredman: you need to have the binary interface at some level. :P
14:52	hiredman	sure
14:52	notallama	that's what i want. a non-garbage collected lisp that has 3 data types: chars, ints, and pointers
14:53	hiredman	Chousuke: cinc paired with llvm
14:53	Chousuke	are chars going to be 8 bits? if so, call them bytes ;P
14:53	hiredman	notallama: that is crazy
14:53	dmiles_afk	in the last 9 years people been slowing porting it to run in java instead... but the differnce is the java memory footprint for Objects is indeed much much larger than the "C unions"
14:53	hiredman	lisp has always had gc
14:54	hiredman	gc was one of the reasons some people (in antiquity) called java an acceptable list
14:54	hiredman	lisp
14:55	hiredman	although something as direct as C with a nicer syntax might be nice
14:55	notallama	yeah, but gc doesn't play nice with pointers. given the choice, gc is probably the sane one, but i like pointers.
14:55	pixelman	is there work on getting better error messages in clojure?
14:57	hiredman	notallama: I have an idea
14:57	notallama	oh?
14:58	hiredman	do it as a concatenative language
14:58	hiredman	instead of a lisp
15:00	notallama	probably a good idea. it doesn't need parens around everything if functions have fixed arity.
15:00	ambient	functional lisp is kinda concatenative
15:00	ambient	because it can be transformed into postfix notation :p
15:01	hiredman	concatenative languages seem to be more explicit about the stack, which seems like it would mix well with low level stuff where you care about the stack
15:05	cypher23	raek, turns out I had also included some jars from processing, which collided with the penumbra jars. Removing those from the classpath made the error go away
15:05	cypher23	thanks for your help
15:14	milep	is there any helper functions to sort map by values?
15:16	johnmn31	maybe sort-by. I'll have to look.
15:19	johnmn31	if you're using keywords, no
15:19	johnmn31	(sort-by #(< 1 (key %)) {:a 1 :b 2})
15:19	johnmn31	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
15:20	johnmn31	but if you're using comparable items as keys:
15:20	johnmn31	(sort-by #(< 1 (key %)) {2 :a 1 :b})
15:20	johnmn31	([1 :b] [2 :a])
15:20	hiredman	johnmn31: that is not a sorted map
15:20	milep	ok, thanks, sort-by might do it, I have structs as keys and integer values
15:21	johnmn31	or you you could do:
15:21	johnmn31	(sort-by #(< 1 (val %)) {:a 1 :b 2})
15:21	johnmn31	([:a 1] [:b 2])
15:21	hiredman	…
15:21	johnmn31	hiredman: what do you mean?
15:21	hiredman	johnmn31: that is not a sorted map
15:22	hiredman	you are taking a map and returning a sequence
15:22	johnmn31	oh, of course.
15:22	johnmn31	maps have no order
15:22	johnmn31	is there a sorted-map in clojure?
15:23	hiredman	yes
15:23	hiredman	,(doc sorted-map)
15:23	clojurebot	"([& keyvals]); keyval => key val Returns a new sorted map with supplied mappings."
15:23	johnmn31	indeed there is
15:24	johnmn31	and as long as the object implements comparable?
15:25	johnmn31	is there a way to do something like a seq on an array?
15:25	Chousuke	just call seq on it
15:26	Chousuke	,(seq (int-array 1 2 3))
15:26	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$int-array
15:26	Chousuke	hm
15:26	Chousuke	well, anyway
15:28	johnmn31	,(int-array 1 2 3)
15:28	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$int-array
15:28	johnmn31	,(int-array [1 2 3)
15:28	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: )
15:28	johnmn31	,(int-array [1 2 3)
15:28	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: )
15:28	johnmn31	,(int-array [1 2 3])
15:28	clojurebot	#<int[] [I@10cdec1>
15:28	johnmn31	butter fingers
15:28	johnmn31	,(seq (int-array [1 2 3]))
15:28	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
15:28	johnmn31	hmm
15:29	danlei	anyone else having problems with completion in latest slime (using swank.swank/start-server, installed without clojure-install)?
15:31	milep	hmm, is there somewhere example how to use sorted-map-by?
15:32	danlei	I used to just run ant after git pull and everything worked, but since the past few days everything seems to have changed. used maven now to get my swank.clojure.jar, but completion refuses to work.
15:34	johnmn31	,(sorted-map-by #(< %1 %2) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8)
15:34	clojurebot	{1 2, 3 4, 5 6, 7 8}
15:34	johnmn31	,(sorted-map-by #(> %1 %2) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8)
15:34	clojurebot	{7 8, 5 6, 3 4, 1 2}
15:35	danlei	,(sorted-map-by > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8)
15:35	clojurebot	{7 8, 5 6, 3 4, 1 2}
15:36	johnmn31	,true
15:36	clojurebot	true
15:36	milep	so the sorted-map-by comparator gets keys as arguments?
15:38	johnmn31	milep: I think it sends both the key and the val to the function
15:39	johnmn31	sends both the key and val to the comparator, that is.. I'm not sure though
15:39	milep	,(sorted-map-by #(compare %1 %2) :c 1 :a 3 :b 2 :d 2)
15:39	clojurebot	{:a 3, :b 2, :c 1, :d 2}
15:40	milep	that got only keys?
15:40	danlei	(sorted-map-by compare :c 1 :a 3 :b 2 :d 2), no need for wrapping
15:41	johnmn31	I guess so
15:41	milep	but if I want to compare values?
15:46	johnmn31	hmm. I remember once seen a trick to reverse the keys with the vals in a map, but I don't remember how it's doene
15:47	milep	johnmn31: that doesn't help, because I lose values if they are equal
15:47	johnmn31	true
15:47	milep	tried that allready :)
15:48	johnmn31	(well, if you didn't mind ending up with vectors...
15:48	johnmn31	,(sort-by #(< 1 (val %)) {:a 1 :b 2})
15:48	clojurebot	([:a 1] [:b 2])
15:49	milep	can I make a map from that?
15:50	milep	I don't mind if it is temporaly list of vectors
15:51	johnmn31	should be able to
15:52	milep	I think so also, but haven't found the syntax yet
15:54	danlei	(into {} (sort-by #(< 1 (val %)) {:a 1 :b 2}))
15:55	danlei	but that would loose order again :)
15:56	milep	danlei: thanks, it doesn't matter I need the order only temporaly
15:58	milep	but the sorted-map would be better...
16:00	Chousuke	there's a sorted-map-by
16:01	milep	Chousuke: yes, but I didn't figure out how to use it to sort by values
16:02	johnmn31	should be a way to feed a vector of [:a 1] into hash-map
16:02	johnmn31	I was thinking desctructuring, but I don't really know how to use it
16:02	Chousuke	there is :p
16:02	Chousuke	(into {} [[:a 1] [:b 2]])
16:02	danlei	ugliest in town: (apply sorted-map (mapcat identity (sort-by #(< 1 (val %)) {:a 2 :b 1}))) :)
16:02	Chousuke	,(into {} [[:a 1] [:b 2]])
16:02	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
16:03	raek	,(conj {} [:a 1])
16:03	clojurebot	{:a 1}
16:03	Chousuke	,(into (sorted-map) [[:r 1] [:b 2]])
16:03	clojurebot	{:b 2, :r 1}
16:03	danlei	Chousuke: :)
16:08	johnmn31	oh. so:
16:08	johnmn31	,(into {} (sort-by #(< 1 (val %)) {:a 1 :b 2}))
16:08	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
16:09	danlei	(into {} (sort-by #(> 1 (val %)) {:a 1 :b 2})) ≡ (into {} (sort-by #(< 1 (val %)) {:a 1 :b 2}))
16:11	johnmn31	,(let [a (sort-by #(< 1 (val %)) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 5 :d 0})] (pr a) (into {} a))
16:11	clojurebot	{:a 1, :d 0, :b 2, :c 5}
16:11	clojurebot	([:a 1] [:d 0] [:b 2] [:c 5])
16:12	johnmn31	hmm, 1 is not less than zero, though
16:13	johnmn31	,(sort-by #(< 1 (val %)) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 5 :d 0})
16:13	clojurebot	([:a 1] [:d 0] [:b 2] [:c 5])
16:13	johnmn31	?
16:13	johnmn31	oh, I'm sorting by 1
16:14	danlei	oh :)
16:14	milep	,(sort-by #(val %) {:c 1 :a 3 :b 2 :d 2})
16:14	clojurebot	([:c 1] [:b 2] [:d 2] [:a 3])
16:14	Chousuke	#(val %) = val :P
16:15	johnmn31	Chousuke keeps trying to tell us
16:16	johnmn31	,(let [a (sort-by val {:a 1 :b 9 :d 0})] (pr a) (into {} a))
16:16	clojurebot	{:d 0, :a 1, :b 9}
16:16	clojurebot	([:d 0] [:a 1] [:b 9])
16:16	johnmn31	there we go
16:18	Chousuke	johnmn31: do not trust that result
16:18	Chousuke	johnmn31: maps do not maintain order except by accident :)
16:18	johnmn31	oh I know, that's why I spit out a
16:19	johnmn31	the ordered data, for use
16:20	johnmn31	that map being ordered wasn't my intention
16:22	milep	Is there a way to access values in sorted-map-by comparator?
16:23	milep	,(sorted-map-by #(compare (val %1) (val %2)) :c 1 :a 3 :b 2 :d 2)
16:23	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry
16:25	Guest92834	forgot the {}
16:25	Guest92834	?
16:25	Chousuke	it only has access to the key, for obvious reasons :P
16:26	milep	so, it's not going to be easy to have sorted map by values
16:26	danlei	(sort '((a 1) (b 2) (c 3) (f 0)) #'< :key #'cadr) :P
16:27	Chousuke	that's not a map :P
16:27	johnmn31	true, you might want to use a different datastructure
16:27	hiredman	keep two maps
16:28	hiredman	one the inverse of the other
16:28	danlei	well, i'd call it the poor-cl-mans map :p
16:28	milep	hiredman: won't I lose some values if they are identical?
16:29	hiredman	yes
16:29	johnmn31	you could use a set of key-val pairs
16:30	Chousuke	and you wouldn't be able to look up by key then /:
16:30	danlei	just use a good old alist
16:33	hiredman	http://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/HOPL2-Uncut.pdf "The Evolution of Lisp" is pretty neat, if anyone hasn't seen it
16:35	danlei	also of (not only) historical interest: http://tinyurl.com/ye3tlko
17:00	MarkVolkmann	Technically speaking, is a Var considered to be one of the "reference types"?
17:01	Chousuke	MarkVolkmann: yes.
17:14	raek	wow. prxml is really neat.
17:15	raek	i've always wanted to generate xml and html in a lispy way
17:16	raek	(prxml [:element {:attribute "value"} "content" [:subelement "sub"] "more text"])
17:17	raek	prints: <element attribute="value">content<subelement>sub</subelement>more text</element>
17:19	raek	btw, has anyone made a version of clojure.contrib.xml/parse that handles xml namespaces?
17:20	raek	i've seen some ideas in the mail archive, but have anyone implemented this?
17:20	hiredman	,(doc clojure.xml/parse)
17:20	clojurebot	"([s] [s startparse]); Parses and loads the source s, which can be a File, InputStream or String naming a URI. Returns a tree of the xml/element struct-map, which has the keys :tag, :attrs, and :content. and accessor fns tag, attrs, and content. Other parsers can be supplied by passing startparse, a fn taking a source and a ContentHandler and returning a parser"
17:20	raek	cause I'm thinking about doing it myself
17:21	hiredman	seems like that is something to be taken care of with the startparse bit
17:21	hiredman	huh
17:21	hiredman	maybe not
17:22	raek	i was thinking about a funktion that just takes the output from xml/parse, looks for xmlns attributes, and "updates" tag and attribute names
17:23	raek	that is, returning a new xml tree
17:24	hiredman	tree map
17:25	hiredman	I wonder why clojure.zip doesn't define a map
17:25	hiredman	clojurebot: transform?
17:25	clojurebot	transform is http://github.com/hiredman/odds-and-ends/blob/8a84e6ddbad9d71f714ba16c3e1239633228a7eb/functional.clj
17:26	hiredman	transform is basically a map over a zipper
17:26	raek	{:tag :html :attribs {:xmlns "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"}} => {:tag #^{:namespace "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"} :html}
17:26	raek	or something similar
17:26	hiredman	heck
17:27	raek	to have maps that share structure is really awesome
17:28	raek	especially if you have to keep track of an environment with some sort of bindings when traversing data structures
17:28	raek	like xml namespace prefixes
18:04	ztellman	what's the proper way to reference an internal class?
18:04	ztellman	A$B ?
18:09	danlei	ztellman: yes
18:09	zaphar_ps	out of curiosity are there any clojure http-server libraries?
18:10	danlei	ah, finally I got my completion back
18:10	ztellman	danlei: it looks like you have to give the full classpath to have the inner class notation work
18:10	ztellman	is that true, or am I just doing it wrong
18:12	danlei	ztellman: no, you don't have to. for example: (DefaultEditorKit$CopyAction.)
18:12	ztellman	danlei: well, this is for an enum rather than a class
18:12	ztellman	maybe that makes a difference, I dunno
18:12	danlei	hm
18:12	danlei	I'm not sure
18:12	ztellman	it's not a big deal
18:12	danlei	but I don't think that makes a difference
18:14	danlei	I had to import them like this though: (javax.swing.text DefaultEditorKit$CopyAction DefaultEditorKit$PasteAction DefaultEditorKit$CutAction), maybe that helps
18:15	ztellman	danlei: I'll try that, thanks
18:53	poet	what's the usual turn around time for a new post on the clojure mailing list being approved ?
19:09	somnium	is there a standard java/clojure way to get all subdirs of a dir?
20:10	aja	What is the clojure idiom for a simple for loop? As in: For the values 1 to 20, I want ot call function foo with that value as the argument?
20:11	somnium	,(for [x (range 20)] (* x x))
20:11	clojurebot	(0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 121 144 169 196 225 256 289 324 361)
20:11	aja	somnium: Heh. Thanks. Once again, I bounce off the bloody square brackets.
20:12	somnium	youll get used to 'em
20:12	aja	somnium: I used to be annoyed by lisp newbs who complained about all the brackets -- I now have new empathy./
20:13	somnium	they make binding expressions more readable than common-lisp, imo
20:14	aja	somnium: Yeah -- I seee the point. I just have to re-train the part of my brain that was devoted to parsing that stuff.
20:16	aja	somnium: Seems to work a charm. Thanks.
20:16	aja	(Note to self: When in doubt, consider that the things that might be lets should be inside [])
20:53	danlei	shomehow I never got used to all the square brackets and curly braces. i still don't like them that much. they also don't help making anything more readable for me (that's what indentation is about imho), but rather distract ... but as long as that is the only thing I complain about, clojure remains one of my top five languages.e
20:54	somnium	you really prefer (hash-map :a :b :c :d) to {:a :b :c :d} ?
20:54	danlei	I didn't say it wasn't convenient
20:54	danlei	I still dont like the look
20:54	danlei	so, optically, yes i prefere the latter
20:54	somnium	or (let (a (hash-map :a :b :c :d)) ...
20:54	danlei	but still use the former
20:55	danlei	*prefer
20:55	danlei	i don't even mind the additional parens in the other lisp
20:55	somnium	I'm trying to think of an example using destructuring without brackets, but there's no way Ill get the parens right
20:55	danlei	that was never something I minded
20:55	danlei	well, in CL there's destructuring bind, but it's less general
20:56	somnium	for me its not the parens, its the lack of visual cues to distinguish types of expressions
20:56	danlei	anyway, I wasn't complaining about the language, it's just a more or less aesthetic thing. taste, if you will.
20:57	somnium	,(for [{x [_ y]} {:a [1 2] :b [3 4]}] [x y])
20:57	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: _ in this context
20:58	danlei	I hate those visual cues somehow
20:58	somnium	:)
20:58	danlei	i like the ... hm
20:58	danlei	the "harmony" of just symbols and round parens
20:58	somnium	ok, but I don't know how I could write that and understand it without the reader macros
20:58	danlei	well, in the other lisps that is not much of a problem
20:59	danlei	since the usual destructuring (as in CL) just operates on lists
20:59	somnium	,(for [{x [z y]} {:a [1 2] :b [3 4]}] [x y])
20:59	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: z in this context
20:59	danlei	there are libs though which manage that without reader macros
20:59	danlei	I just don't use them
20:59	danlei	for example cl-unification
21:00	danlei	it's actually more ...
21:00	danlei	but again: no complaints, it's purely subjective, I know
21:00	somnium	well, I never did anything substantial with a lisp before clojure, so I guess I don't haven anything to compare it to
21:01	somnium	but it has most of the literal sugar I'm used to from languages like python or ruby
21:01	danlei	and it really is convenient (and a very nice language in general)
21:02	danlei	I always felt that the sequence abstraction in CL should be more general
21:02	danlei	along came clojure ... :)
21:09	somnium	,(apply merge (for [[x [y z]] {:a [1 2] :b [3 4]}] {x (+ y z)}))
21:09	clojurebot	{:b 7, :a 3}
21:09	somnium	I guess it is kind of noisy, what is equivalent with destructuring bind?
21:11	danlei	as I said, there is no real equivalent, since dest-bind operates on lists
21:11	danlei	you'd have to use something like metabang-bind or cl-unification, which I don't do usually. You'd just bind with lets.
21:12	somnium	metabang-bind is a nice name for a function
21:12	danlei	:)
21:15	danlei	also, when playing around or prototyping, you'd often use alists or plist, which could be destructured with destructuring-bind. of course there is a penalty for doing everything with lists, and the drawback is that when you want to optimize later and use hast-hables vectors &c, the code gets more ugly
21:18	danlei	then again ... I still find let-binding easier to read sometimes. depends ...
21:21	somnium	I think I like least calling java from clojure code, despite the power it gives. I always have a desire to wrap any java interaction in a clojure function to get the . .. dotos out of the code
21:22	danlei	me to :)
21:23	chouser	somnium: how long have you been using Clojure?
21:23	somnium	not long :)
21:23	somnium	maybe 5 months since I discovered it?
21:23	chouser	you're in a well known stage.
21:23	chouser	:-)
21:24	chouser	1. "oh! Java!?" 2. "Eww! Java!" 3. "Ah... Java..."
21:25	chouser	danlei: is apparently in a stage all his own. :-)
21:25	somnium	I used jruby before, but that is really grafted onto java, contorts java into its own syntax
21:26	somnium	maybe I'm just wanting to recreate that experience :)
21:27	somnium	,(doc atom)
21:27	clojurebot	"([x] [x & options]); Creates and returns an Atom with an initial value of x and zero or more options (in any order): :meta metadata-map :validator validate-fn If metadata-map is supplied, it will be come the metadata on the atom. validate-fn must be nil or a side-effect-free fn of one argument, which will be passed the intended new state on any state change. If the new state is unacceptable, the validate-fn should return
21:28	somnium	if you have some mutable java thing in an atom that you can only alter with a side-effect causing method, what's the correct procedure?
21:32	chouser	bleh. probably not much point in putting it in an atom if it mutates on its own.
21:32	chouser	If you're willing to make a full copy each time you change it, you could do that -- pretend it's an immutable value.
21:33	somnium	hmm, was thinking of opening/closing sockets on a server
21:33	chouser	yeah, I don't know how to handle that. I've done it, but I'm not sure I did it right.
21:34	chouser	the statefulness of that socket tended to leak out into the rest of my program -- hard to keep it contained.
21:34	somnium	perhaps cinc will lead to a functional server
21:35	chouser	you could put it in an agent instead, and only operate it on it by sending functions to the agent
21:35	chouser	this would serialize access to the socket
21:36	danlei	chouser: well, my state is, that (loop for (k v) on '(:a (1 2) :b (3 4)) by #'cddr append (list k (apply #'+ v))) is not "worse" than (apply merge (for [[x [y z]] {:a [1 2] :b [3 4]}] {x (+ y z)})) (not 100% equivalent), but different. I kinda like both, both have pros & cons. about java: I like the well tested libs and that there are so many of them and I like the ease of clojure interop, but I would welcome a few more wrappers, and
21:36	danlei	end up wrapping relatively often. again, that's just taste.
21:36	somnium	when to use send vs. send-off?
21:41	chouser	somnium: if your function is CPU bound, use send. If it blocks on anything else, IO for example, use send-off.
21:42	chouser	danlei: I did learn CL, but it never "stuck" for me. libraries were a big issue, but so was the difficulty I had reading CL code.
21:44	chouser	I was surprised at how much easier Clojure seemed for me to read, but I think not that it may be mostly because if you see (foo a) in Clojure, an overwhelming majority of the time it's calling something named foo with arg a.
21:44	chouser	In CL, it might be that, or it might be a variable binding of some sort, or an expression in a cond form, or who knows what.
21:45	chouser	and if you're reading inside-out as is often required, that means you have to read further "ahead" to an outer form to even know vaguely what's going on.
21:46	chouser	In Clojure, the [foo a] clearly says it's not a function call. It leads to fewer dead-ends while trying to read a block of code.
21:46	slashus2	oo I just learned about transients.
21:46	chouser	All that said, though, of course it's a matter of taste, as you said.
21:49	danlei	chouser: I follow you, and as far as the libraries are concerned: pretty hard to beat java, there we agree. about the visual thing: I just don't have that problem in "traditional" lisps, so clojure here doesn't solve a problem for me. (but still I value the more general seq abstraction, compared to CLs "sequences", and it sure is convenient)
21:54	slashus2	chouser: I have read a little bit about newnew. Is the clojure in clojure effort and newnew coming along pretty well?
22:06	sproingie	i think my problem with CL is mostly IDENTIFIERS-THAT-LOOK-LIKE-COBOL-TO-DO-BASIC-THINGS
22:07	danlei	well, I prefer it to id/l->cob :)
22:08	sproingie	there's a happy medium
22:08	danlei	and since you use java in clojure more or less daily, you often have a similar effect, lest you wrap
22:08	danlei	s/lest/unless
22:09	danlei	but yes, there are a few long identifiers, sure
22:09	sproingie	macros help
22:09	danlei	on the other hand, I prefer list to l for list variables
22:10	sproingie	i special-case that one and use L
22:10	danlei	which starts another flame: lisp-1 vs lisp-2 ;9
22:10	sproingie	i like lisp-1
22:10	sproingie	<3 scheme
22:10	danlei	I like both, I always miss something, no matter which one I am using
22:10	sproingie	my other lisp is elisp which is also a lisp-1
22:11	danlei	here the freedom of identifier choice, there the ease of dealing with 1st class funs
22:11	arbscht	none of these things bother me in either CL or Clojure
22:11	danlei	elisp?
22:11	sproingie	emacs lisp
22:11	danlei	(setq foo (lambda () 'hallo))
22:11	danlei	(foo)
22:11	danlei	try it
22:12	sproingie	hm. except i'm always throwing around functions without #'
22:12	sproingie	oh nevermind those aren't functions
22:12	sproingie	been a while since i last hacked elisp :p
22:12	danlei	np
22:13	danlei	arbscht: well, I miss the freedom in variable naming more than lisp-1 ness. I guess I tend towards lisp-2
22:14	sproingie	static scope tends to make accidental shadowing less an issoe
22:14	clojurebot	scope is at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73838
22:14	sproingie	issue
22:14	sproingie	macros have hygeine problems either way
22:16	danlei	I don't even see why it should be impossible to allow (setq foo (lambda () 'blah)) (foo) -> blah
22:16	danlei	(in a lisp-2)
22:21	sproingie	because you're setting the value slot
22:21	danlei	doesn't work because it doesn't work? :)
22:22	sproingie	because the spec only looks at the function slot when it sees (foo)
22:22	danlei	sure, but why can't the first symbol in a list be evaluated and if it evaluates to a function, call it. like ((lambda () ...) ...) works too
22:22	danlei	yes, I know the way it is
22:22	sproingie	falling back to the value slot might be interesting but probably infeasable
22:22	danlei	I just don't understand the reason
22:23	danlei	probably
22:23	danlei	but I'm not sure why it would be
22:24	sproingie	consistency i guess. don't have to introspect values for callables
22:24	danlei	of corse it would just be for convenience ...
22:24	danlei	maybe performance issues ... dunno
22:24	sproingie	if you look into values you pretty much have a lisp-1
22:24	danlei	well, yes
22:24	sproingie	lisp-1 with some dual nature to be sure
22:25	danlei	the "default" for funs would be the symbol-function, but symbol-value would work for convenience
22:26	danlei	probably there is an obvious reason why it is like it is and I just don't know enough about the subject
22:26	sproingie	traditiooooooon ... tradition!
22:27	danlei	:)
22:31	danlei	but I remember some people arguing that they actually liked funcall, for similar reasons chouser likes [] for data vs () for code. they like to "see" that something "different" happens
22:32	danlei	so maybe yes, tradition, culture, taste. like often.
22:44	somnium	what is the preferred way to set config vars when using libraries? presumably not (do (in-ns foo) (def config bar))
23:06	hiredman	" About this time, the Scheme community
23:07	hiredman	starts denying that Scheme is a dialect of Lisp, claiming closer bonds to Algol.
23:07	hiredman	"
23:07	hiredman	brilliant, pure gold
23:07	chouser	somnium: wouldn't work anyway.
23:07	chouser	you can use 'binding' for thread-local setting, or perhaps alter-var-root
23:14	chouser	hiredman: what's that from?
23:15	hiredman	the evolution of lisp
23:16	somnium	chouser: it seemed to work (do (in-ns 'foo) (def bar baz) (in-ns 'old-namespace))
23:26	chouser	somnium: hm, indeed.
23:57	rongenre	Hi .. looking for a decent example a defn with optional keyword arguments
23:57	arbscht	defn doesn't take keyword arguments
23:58	rongenre	I meant creating a function with optional keyword args
23:58	arbscht	functions don't, either :)
23:59	arbscht	you can pretend they do by applying hash-map to the args, I guess
23:59	rongenre	Really. So I need to do the &rest thing and do a hash-map yeah
23:59	rongenre	Ok, just trying to be idiomatic
23:59	arbscht	,((fn [& args] (apply hash-map args)) :a 1 :b 2)
23:59	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
23:59	rongenre	awesome. Thanks!