#clojure – 2009-08-26

2009-08-26

00:00	mebaran151	it seemed to work
00:00	mebaran151	clojure contrib with the old version
00:45	headius	mikem: clojure's using nailgun now too, eh?
00:45	headius	we need to get together and make some improvements
00:53	hiredman	vimclojure comes with a nailgun server
00:57	replaca	is anyone else getting errors building the latest contrib?
00:58	replaca	I'm getting compile_clojure: [java] java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/expect/test_is_adapter__init.class or clojure/contrib/expect/test_is_adapter.clj on classpath:
01:00	hiredman	yep
01:00	replaca	oh, just a typo in build.xml
01:00	replaca	one sec, i'll check in a fix
01:05	replaca	fixed, you can pull now
01:05	hiredman	neat
01:57	lowlycoder	how do i search for sample code taht uses letfn
01:58	LauJensen	lowlycoder: Google seemed to do the trick: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/a7aad1d5b94db748
01:59	lowlycoder	what did you search for?
01:59	LauJensen	"clojure letfn"
02:00	hiredman	~google clojure letfn
02:00	clojurebot	First, out of 68 results is:
02:00	clojurebot	letfn - mutually recursive local functions - Clojure \| Google Groups
02:00	clojurebot	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/a7aad1d5b94db748
02:00	hiredman	huh
02:11	lowlycoder	is there anyway I can use letfn on a proxy?
02:16	lowlycoder	in clojure, how can you create a proxy that will remove itself?
02:25	lowlycoder	this is weird; is it possible to define a macro (run-once ...) so that even if (run-once ...) is embedded in the function of a body, it's only executed once, even if the function is called multiple times?
02:27	hiredman	what are you doing?
02:27	lowlycoder	i'm doing something wrong (and re-engineering my solution to not need this)
02:27	lowlycoder	but now, i'm curious
02:37	lowlycoder	http://paste.lisp.org/+1UEG <-- is there a way to make this shorter / more idiomatic
02:38	hiredman	looks like you are re-implementing memoize
02:38	hiredman	~def memoize
02:38	lowlycoder	whoa, it happens only once?
02:38	lowlycoder	that's an interesting wya to use memoize
02:38	lowlycoder	no it's not
02:38	lowlycoder	i'm trying to remove the listener after it execs
02:39	hiredman	what
02:39	hiredman	this is ridiculous
02:39	hiredman	remove from what?
02:40	lowlycoder	i remove the listener after it exeutes once
02:40	lowlycoder	ideally i would use letfn and not have to deal with my-ref
02:40	lowlycoder	but i don't know how to use letfn with proxy
02:40	hiredman	have you read the docs for proxy?
02:40	lowlycoder	i have
02:40	hiredman	I suggest you do, there is a very simple way to do this
02:41	lowlycoder	it returns a class
02:41	lowlycoder	no mention of the function
02:41	lowlycoder	the this?
02:41	lowlycoder	hmm
02:41	hiredman	…
02:50	JAS415	~def proxy
02:51	JAS415	Each method fn takes an additional implicit first arg, which is bound to 'this.
02:51	lowlycoder	JAS415: yep; just got it working; thanks :-)
02:52	JAS415	cool
02:52	JAS415	this is very useful, i had the same type of problem until i found it
02:53	lowlycoder	yeah, i started out with a "solution" where I had a global ref that would change the first time i exec the handler and in future checks, it would ignore the handler
02:53	lowlycoder	then I moved on to what I pasted into lisppaste
02:53	lowlycoder	but this solution I like the best :-)
03:20	mebaran151	has anybody tried the new enclojure
03:21	mebaran151	REPL seems to be failing on me in Netbeans with the newest one
03:22	lowlycoder	does enclojure have vim intergration?
03:36	lowlycoder	i'm really starting to hate clojure's lack of continuations
03:36	lowlycoder	i'm seeing them everywhere
04:27	LauJensen	hiredman: feeling a little grumpy today ?
04:31	hiredman	?
04:31	hiredman	every day
04:31	lowlycoder	does clojure have a deque structure, where I append to the front and take from the end?
04:32	hiredman	,(doc butlast)
04:32	clojurebot	"([coll]); Return a seq of all but the last item in coll, in linear time"
04:32	hiredman	hmm
04:33	hiredman	,(doc subvec)
04:33	clojurebot	"([v start] [v start end]); Returns a persistent vector of the items in vector from start (inclusive) to end (exclusive). If end is not supplied, defaults to (count vector). This operation is O(1) and very fast, as the resulting vector shares structure with the original and no trimming is done."
04:33	lowlycoder	?
04:33	clojurebot	clojure-maven-plugin is http://github.com/talios/clojure-maven-plugin
04:33	lowlycoder	hmm, i'll just use reverse function
04:34	hiredman	,(conj [1 2 3] 4)
04:34	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
04:34	LauJensen	lowlycoder: If not, it wouldn't be difficult to make your own, and you can always take from the rear using last and append using (conj '(1 2 3) 4)
04:34	LauJensen	~(conj '(1 2 3) 4)
04:34	clojurebot	(conj {:a 1} (when true {:b 2}))
04:34	hiredman	,(subvec [1 2 3 4] 1)
04:34	clojurebot	[2 3 4]
04:34	LauJensen	w00t?
04:34	LauJensen	clojureb0t is b0rked
04:34	hiredman	LauJensen: what?
04:34	LauJensen	~(conj '(1 2 3) 4)
04:34	clojurebot	(conj {:a 1} (when true {:b 2}))
04:35	LauJensen	that should give me (4 1 2 3)
04:35	Chousuke	~conj
04:35	clojurebot	(conj {:a 1} (when true {:b 2}))
04:35	hiredman	LauJensen: ,
04:35	LauJensen	,(conj '(1 2 3) 4)
04:35	clojurebot	(4 1 2 3)
04:35	LauJensen	Oh - So I'm the noob :)
04:35	LauJensen	btw, all you danish reading compojure lovin' clojure fans, check out http://www.bestinclass.dk
04:35	hiredman	anyway subvec and conj will let you use a vector as a deque
04:36	Chousuke	hmm, doesn't subvec have performance issues if you stack it too much? /:
04:36	hiredman	last I heard it did not
04:37	hiredman	(doc subvec)
04:37	clojurebot	"([v start] [v start end]); Returns a persistent vector of the items in vector from start (inclusive) to end (exclusive). If end is not supplied, defaults to (count vector). This operation is O(1) and very fast, as the resulting vector shares structure with the original and no trimming is done."
04:37	hiredman	bah
04:37	hiredman	~def subvec
04:38	hiredman	~def c.l.RT
04:40	hiredman	~def c.l.APersistentVector
04:41	LauJensen	hiredman: Dont you worry that tinyurl will consider you a spammer?
04:43	hiredman	nope
07:05	gko	,(= (java.lang.Long. "123") (java.math.BigInteger. "123"))
07:05	clojurebot	true
07:06	gko	,(#{(java.lang.Long. "123")} (java.math.BigInteger. "123"))
07:06	clojurebot	nil
07:06	gko	why ???
07:14	gko	is that normal?
07:27	liwp	gko: I think set uses .equals() to find items whereas (=) uses numerical equality for numbesr
07:28	liwp	,(.equals (Long. "123") (java.math.BigInteger. "123"))
07:28	clojurebot	false
07:28	liwp	,(.equals (Integer. "123") 123)
07:28	clojurebot	true
07:29	liwp	,(#{(Integer. "123")} 123)
07:29	clojurebot	123
07:30	gko	liwp: so, set of number = pain ?
07:32	gko	or what should I use instead?
07:32	liwp	yeah, I think it tends to be uncomfortable unless you can guarantee that all the numbers are e.g. ints
07:33	liwp	I'm not sure what the recommended way of dealing with this is
07:33	liwp	if you do need to worry about BigIntegers, then you can of course make everything into a big-int before you add it to the set and look it up
07:34	liwp	,(doc bigint)
07:34	clojurebot	"([x]); Coerce to BigInteger"
07:35	liwp	,(#{(Long. "123")} (long 123))
07:35	clojurebot	123
07:35	liwp	,(#{(java.math.BingInteger. "123")} (bigint 123))
07:35	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.math.BingInteger
07:35	liwp	uhh
07:35	liwp	,(#{(java.math.BigInteger. "123")} (bigint 123))
07:35	clojurebot	123
07:36	liwp	gko: but yeah, you need to be careful
07:37	gko	yep.
07:50	raphinou	is there a way to avoid the repeat of (count args) in this code? (let [argsnum# (if (< 0 (count args)) (count args) "") ] some-code)
07:53	matley	raphinou, only if you write a macro if-negative-let afaik
07:55	raphinou	ok, thx matley. It's not worth it in my case
07:58	gerryxiao	hello
07:58	gerryxiao	how to change Graphics to Graphics2D in clojure?
07:59	gerryxiao	(Graphics2D g) seems not work
07:59	gerryxiao	g is Graphics
08:00	liwp	I assume you're calling a method on g that is only defined for Graphics2D instances?
08:01	liwp	try adding a type hint to the call site, e.g. (.foo #^Garphics2D g <rest of args>)
08:01	gerryxiao	nope
08:02	gerryxiao	i 'm use Canvas class to draw stuff
08:02	gerryxiao	paint(g)
08:03	gerryxiao	g is Graphics
08:03	gerryxiao	i want to change it to Graphics2D and use methods from Graphics2D
08:04	liwp	try this: (.paint canvas #^Graphics2D g)
08:04	matley	newbie question. I am trying to subclass a ListModel. In this case the subclass should have an additional state (a sorted-set). Is it right to do (let [state (ref ...)] (proxy [javax.swing.DefaultListModel] [] ... .... )) ?
08:04	arbscht	,(doc cast)
08:04	clojurebot	"([c x]); Throws a ClassCastException if x is not a c, else returns x."
08:05	gerryxiao	ok
08:18	gerryxiao	it works, thx
08:19	gerryxiao	liwp :-)
08:19	liwp	good
08:20	gerryxiao	but i think "#^Graphics 2D" is much ugly
08:20	liwp	I haven't really figured out yet what clojure's (cast) is good for
08:20	liwp	yeah, the type hinting does get a bit ugly
08:20	gerryxiao	i have to type it much times
08:21	liwp	there was some discussion about a macro that would allow something like g:Graphics2D in function definitions
08:21	gerryxiao	(let [g2d #^Graphics2D g]) can't work?
08:21	liwp	gerryxiao: if it is in the same function you can type hint a let binding and then use that
08:21	liwp	yep, that's it
08:23	gerryxiao	that's a bit better
08:25	gerryxiao	when will newnew be merged to master?
08:29	liwp	don't know
08:53	LauJensen	~max
08:53	clojurebot	max people is 164
08:53	LauJensen	~clojureql
08:53	clojurebot	clojureql is http://gitorious.org/clojureql
09:11	lpetit_	Hi I can't find a pre-existing function returning a (flat or not) list of filepaths (recursive from a root directory). Neither in core or contrib ? Do I miss something or do I have to (yet again) rewrite my own ?
09:12	cgrand	,(doc file-seq)
09:12	clojurebot	"([dir]); A tree seq on java.io.Files"
09:13	lpetit_	thx, I was searching on the wrong keyword (directory, folder)
09:20	gerryxiao	hello
09:20	gerryxiao	how to name static innerclass in clojure?
09:20	gerryxiao	classname/innerclass ?
09:20	Chouser	classname$innerclass
09:21	gerryxiao	ok
09:21	cark	carefull about importing the innerclass too, or use fully qualified names
09:22	gerryxiao	(import (java.awt.geom Line2D))
09:22	cark	nope you need the containing class as well
09:23	cark	(import (java.awt.geom Bleh$Line2D))
09:23	gerryxiao	oh
09:23	gerryxiao	thx
09:43	Chouser	some day I'll come up with a use for condp's :>> clause
10:00	Fossi	hey
10:02	Fossi	we want to call some java methods on an object dynamically, like (.. (Query. "foo") (addFilter "bar") (addFilter "baz"))
10:02	Fossi	with bar and baz coming from a map for example.
10:03	Fossi	we used reduce for a while which went ok, but it's getting more complicated as we want to call another method
10:03	Fossi	is there a simple way to do such things? can you for example somehow treat java methods as first class functions and put them into a map?
10:04	liwp	,(doc memfn)
10:04	clojurebot	"([name & args]); Expands into code that creates a fn that expects to be passed an object and any args and calls the named instance method on the object passing the args. Use when you want to treat a Java method as a first-class fn."
10:04	liwp	does that help
10:05	Fossi	quite some :)
10:06	rhickey	memfn predates #() and the latter is preferred
10:14	ankou	what's the difference between reader macros and vectorsyntax? As far as I can see they are not really like macros, but just other special syntax rules? what's the difference between [a b] as (vector a b) and '(a b) as (quote (a b)) ?
10:17	opqdonut	none really
10:17	rhickey	ankou: when the reader reads [a b] it reads a vector object containing 2 symbols, not (vector a b). When it reads '(a b) it reads the list (quote (a b)), where quote, a and b are symbols
10:17	opqdonut	oh, okay
10:17	rhickey	,'[a b]
10:17	clojurebot	[a b]
10:18	ankou	okay
10:25	rhickey	cgrand: let me know when you've tried the tweaks I posted, after that I think we're ready for a patch?
10:27	ankou	it would be nice to have some sort of tabcompletion in the repl
10:28	Chousuke	it's possible with rlwrap
10:28	Chousuke	or slime :P
10:28	rhickey	or enclojure
10:29	ankou	what is rlwrap or enclojure? I would like to use slime but I'm soo used to vim and viper wasn't that good. Slimv wasn't very nice either
10:30	ankou	the same problem with IDEs, I never saw a good vi-plugin
10:30	eevar2	enclojure is a netbeans plugin
10:31	liwp	ankou: rlwrap is utility that uses readline to provide any std io prompt with things like history and tab-completion
10:31	Chouser	ankou: vimclojure exists
10:31	Chouser	ankou: I'm psyching myself up to again try enclojure + jvi in netbeans
10:32	rhickey	Has anyone tried: http://jboss.org/hornetq.html ?
10:32	ankou	Chouser, with vi-plugin I meant something integrating vi in an IDE, not integrating closure in vim. I really missed splitwindows in jvi. I'm normally working with 4 codewindows and would really miss this
10:33	danlarkin	rhickey: do you have the power to invite a regular old email address to join clojure-dev? I want to join but not with a google account, which it seems is the only way google will let me
10:33	Chouser	ankou: look at vimclojure -- runs in real vim
10:33	cgrand	rhickey: gah! I didn't think of reusing the Box. I see you make room for two extra key-values pair when a bitmapnode grows. Did you try parallel arrays instead of the interleaved array?
10:34	ankou	Chouser: I'm currently using it
10:34	Chouser	ankou: and it doesn't do tab completion??
10:35	ankou	don't know, I was talking about the REPL.
10:36	rhickey	cgrand: I haven't tried 2 arrays, and think we can leave that idea for the moment. In my testing leafless is at least as fast as what we've got now, and sometimes faster, with better memory utilization. The last thing I haven't tested is seq perf
10:56	cemerick	rhickey: I just saw hornetq yesterday myself. It certainly sounds like a winner. I need some lightweight messaging library very shortly, so I'll probably put it through its paces.
10:56	rhickey	cemerick: cool let me know what you think if I don't get around to it first
10:56	cemerick	I'm suspicious of anything coming out of jboss, though. It sits next to spring et al. in my head.
10:56	rhickey	libs that this are what make Clojure so useful
10:57	rhickey	cemerick: heh, yeah, they seem to be bending over backwards here highlighting no deps other than the JDK etc, seems small enough
10:58	cemerick	I worry about 2 months from now, I'm using hornet, and then one little piece that would be helpful as an add-on comes out, but depends upon 18 spring libs.
10:58	rhickey	cemerick: the splitting off and packaging seems a quite deliberate effort to give it an independent life
11:00	cemerick	well, here's hoping. Once burned, etc...
11:02	rhickey	with these MQs it all comes down to lots-of-users + lots-of-fixes so it gets fully shaken out
11:03	cemerick	rhickey: what others have you taken a look at so far? I'm only now starting to look.
11:04	rhickey	ActiveMQ, OpenMQ, Joram, mostly reading, a little twiddling
11:05	cemerick	ah -- I'm definitely looking for something embeddable, useful for point-to-point stuff
11:05	rhickey	activemq and joram embed
11:05	cemerick	We use openmq serverside, which is fine enough.
11:05	cemerick	Haven't pushed it any though.
11:05	cemerick	ah, I saw openmq and assumed they were all server-side :-/
11:07	rhickey	joram has a kind of unique multi-peer strategy when embedded. If used persistently, a client can durably 'send' a message when not connected to the network, and will get to target server when reconnected
11:08	ankou	is there any form of destructuring for lists?
11:08	Chouser	ankou: vector destructuring forms work on all seqables
11:09	rhickey	,(let [[a b c] (range 3)] [c b a])
11:09	clojurebot	[2 1 0]
11:09	cemerick	rhickey: Oh, that's sexy.
11:09	cemerick	huh, JMS compliant and around since 2000.
11:09	cemerick	old code so much better than new code :-)
11:10	rhickey	cemerick: yeah, really cool design. Persistent perf is always the challenge, HornetQ is definitely teasing here
11:11	cemerick	The up-front mention of "POJO" is a warning flag. That often means "there's a lot of complexity under the covers so that setters are actually triggering messages/transactions/connections under the covers" in other libs.
11:12	rhickey	cemerick: I that what it means? I couldn't figure it out :)
11:12	cemerick	well, it means a lot of different things to different people.
11:13	cemerick	Many libs are annotation-driven these days, where you add a @Whatever to your class or field, and it decorates all your "POJO" methods with whatever machinery is appropriate. Hibernate comes to mind as a significant example.
11:16	rhickey	cemerick: isn't the problem/magic in the annotator rather than the annotatee?
11:17	cemerick	rhickey: definitely -- what I was saying was that "POJO" might mean that a lot of functionality is only available via annotations.
11:20	rhickey	cemerick: well, I like that you can create a configuration thingy in code. One thing about Joram is, even when embedded, needs some XML to configure, iirc
11:20	cgrand	rhickey: https://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/183-leafless-PersistentHashMap
11:21	cemerick	sure. Annotations aren't a good path AFAIC, though -- the less Java I need to continue to have around, the better.
11:22	rhickey	cemerick: agreed
11:22	rhickey	cgrand: cool, thanks
11:23	cemerick	I'm hoping someone with serious Java-fu comes along with a contrib to support annotations in clojure. That's probably the last significant interop hole left.
11:24	thickey	work in progress for new t-shirt: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tommyvulgar/3858634993/
11:25	liwp	thickey: nice!
11:25	danlarkin	I love the copy
11:27	thickey	thanks
11:27	cemerick	thickey: man, has that woodstock feel, even :-P
11:29	thickey	definitely inspired by rock posters
11:30	rhickey	cgrand: patch doesn't apply cleanly on master: Patch failed at 0017 replace copyOf with arrayCopy
11:31	rhickey	thickey: wild!
11:31	thickey	:)
11:37	cgrand	rhickey: try git am -3 leafless.patch
12:00	bitbckt	thickey: Love the shirt design.
12:01	thickey	thanks!
12:02	bitbckt	I look forward to buying one. :-)
12:02	rzoom	A+++ will order
12:08	rhickey	cgrand: patch applied - thanks!
12:23	Chouser	'into' on a finger-tree should keep the same order, so conj should add to the right, so then push could add to the left.
12:23	Chouser	pop would then remove from the left -- is there anything handy for removing from the right?
12:26	rhickey	Chouser: interesting. depending on if you look at a finger tree as a seq (possible), maybe cons/next for left and conj/pop for right?
12:27	Chouser	yeah, I had thought of that too. Not sure of the drawbacks of implementing ISeq directly...
12:29	Chouser	right now, cons never calls a method of the existing object
12:29	rhickey	writing a finger tree in new new?
12:30	Chouser	that's the plan. slapping it together with non-standard functions on top of vectors right now
12:30	Chouser	conjl/conjr, ft-seq/ft-rseq, etc.
12:30	rhickey	cool
12:31	rhickey	using delays for laziness?
12:32	cemerick	ah, compressed oops are default in jdk7 now
12:32	rhickey	compressed oops?
12:33	cemerick	ordinary object pointers
12:33	rhickey	this in 64-bit?
12:33	cemerick	yeah. Irrelevant in 32.
12:33	cemerick	ah: http://wikis.sun.com/display/HotSpotInternals/CompressedOops
12:34	rhickey	they were all excited about that at JavaOne
12:34	Chouser	I haven't groked the paper all the way to the end. My understanding is the only place I need laziness so far for seq, and lazy-cat's giving me that for free.
12:34	cemerick	the key changeset went in on Monday: http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk7/hotspot/hotspot/rev/82bd76d4d7f2
12:35	Chouser	it's entirely possible I as yet misunderstand the internal requirements to deliver the complexity promises. I'll do some testing at some point to make sure I'm not claiming it's a good finger tree if it's not.
12:35	rhickey	Chouser: I thought laziness was needed to get amortized time properties
12:36	Chouser	rhickey: yes, but I thought that was for the head/tail view stuff.
12:36	Chouser	ah, no, you're probably right.
12:36	rhickey	Chouser: maybe, I haven't looked at it in a while
12:37	Chouser	that's where they discuss it, but perhaps they're showing that the seq doesn't force the creation of the tree until needed.
12:38	Chouser	I'll read that again and make sure. This stuff is definitely stretching my understanding on several levels. Difficult but fun!
12:39	rhickey	you need to be careful as, for Clojure, we care about the amortized time characteristics in a persistent setting
12:39	rhickey	"The same bounds hold in a persistent setting if subtrees are suspended using lazy
12:39	rhickey	evaluation. This ensures that transformations deep in the spine do not take place
12:39	clojurebot	lazy is hard
12:39	rhickey	until a subsequent operation needs to go down that far. Because of the above prop-
12:39	rhickey	erties of safe and dangerous digits, by that time enough cheap shallow operations
12:39	rhickey	will have been performed to pay for this expensive evaluation."
12:40	ankou	is there a possibility to import a whole javapackage?
12:41	ankou	like import javax.swing.*; in java
12:42	rhickey	you can also leverage: "In a strict language that provides a lazy evaluation primitive, we need only suspend the middle subtree of each Deep node, so only Θ(log n) suspensions are required in a tree of size n."
12:43	rhickey	Chouser: finger trees would be an awesome addition - good luck!
12:44	Chouser	heh, thanks.
12:46	Chouser	My current plan is to support a map of measure/reduce functions, so you can do different kinds of searches on the same tree
12:48	rhickey	neat
12:49	technomancy	ankou: no
13:15	cark	clojure.test is not in 1.0 ?
13:16	hiredman	nope
13:16	cark	and test-is is not in contrib anymore ><
13:17	hiredman	there is a 1.0 compat branch of contrib
13:17	cark	oh well that's for simple stuff, i'll do ad hoc testing
13:17	cark	until clojure 1.1 !
14:08	cark	a generic pool library : http://github.com/cark/clj-pool
14:09	krumholt_	what is a good way to deliver a clojure application?
14:09	cark	smallish, but might be usefull to these database guys (clojureql hint hint)
14:10	cark	krumholt_ : make an executable jar
14:12	krumholt_	cark, i tried and failed. is there a better example then on the clojure.org website for how to do this?
14:14	cark	it take a couple hours of suffering to make a nice ant build file, then just copy it for each project =)
14:14	clojurebot	build is working
14:14	cark	i could send you one of my build files, but it wouldn't make sense without the projects themselves
14:15	krumholt_	cark, right now i am manually ordering everthing folder structure etc it is very annoying. maybe i try ant scripts
14:16	cemerick	krumholt_: clojure's jar itself is executable. You should be able to follow its build process as a template in that respect.
14:16	cemerick	yeah, doing it manually is a little insane :-)
14:17	technomancy	krumholt_: here's what I was using on an earlier project: http://github.com/technomancy/mire/blob/910d02c5d616672f46430625874cf7a68ed46eb2/compile.sh
14:17	hiredman	maybe someone should make a sort of skelton executable jar that executes a function based on a property file
14:17	krumholt_	technomancy, thanks
14:17	hiredman	technomancy: clojurebot should work with the latest fnparse now
14:18	technomancy	hiredman: awesome
14:20	cemerick	hiredman: shouldn't people just learn how to use the massive pile of tools that are out there?
14:21	cemerick	I'd hate to see some 5% solution become standard practice.
14:22	cark	well there's a fine line between adding another dependency and having enough functionality
14:22	cark	and sometimes those java libraries a heavy
14:22	cark	heavy to use i mean
14:23	cemerick	I wouldn't call ant 'heavy'. Not using some kind of build tool is like not using autoconf with a C build or something.
14:24	hiredman	cemerick: it would be kind of nice just to be able to copy your clj files somewhere, edit a properties file to note the namespace and name of the function to call, run ant, and have an executable jar
14:24	cark	cemerick : agreed
14:24	hiredman	but everyone hates autoconf
14:25	cemerick	hiredman: oh, I thought the properties file thing was to avoid ant. If ant is in there anywhere, why not just copy and paste any of the dozen executable jar recipes out there?
14:25	hiredman	cemerick: because you then have to copy and paste for every project
14:26	cemerick	hiredman: not if you use ant properly. That's what imports and macros are for.
14:30	technomancy	is getting nicer docstrings for namespaces targeted for 1.1?
14:30	technomancy	*nicer docstring syntax
14:33	saml	do you use emacs?
14:34	technomancy	saml: me? I do.
14:34	technomancy	http://technomancy.us/126
14:49	Chousuke	technomancy: hmm, maybe you should add to the instructions how to specify the encoding for SLIME to use. it seems to default to latin1 :/
14:53	technomancy	Chousuke: yeah, good point
15:11	rhickey	suggestions welcome for multimap reader syntax, a la #*{k v k2 #{vs ...} ...}
15:11	cschreiner	Looking for the slides from the Clojure for Lispers presentation
15:12	cark	rhickey : huh what is it for ?
15:12	cemerick	rhickey: what does that do?
15:12	jensli	Should a multimap really have special syntax?
15:12	rhickey	multimaps ar elike maps but can support more than one value per key
15:13	rhickey	jensli: do you want to be able to read/print it? I do
15:13	jensli	Shouldnt one be more conservative with special syntax, to reduce complexity?
15:13	Chouser	don't want to just repeat the key?
15:13	kotarak	ehm, what is the difference to a map of keys to sets?
15:13	cemerick	rhickey: isn't that just {:a #{1 2 3}}, or whatever?
15:13	rhickey	Chouser: will answer you in a sec
15:14	rhickey	,(seq {:a #{1 2 3}})
15:14	clojurebot	([:a #{1 2 3}])
15:14	cemerick	;-)
15:14	kotarak	hehe
15:14	Chouser	#*{[1 2 3] :key-1, [1 2 3] :key-2}
15:14	Chouser	cemerick: indeed.
15:14	rhickey	but for multimaps would be [:a 1] [:a 2] [:a 3]
15:15	Chouser	oops. #*{[1 2 3] :val-1, [1 2 3] :val-2}
15:15	cemerick	rhickey: and I assume assoc would add in an additional value to the pool for the given key, etc?
15:15	Chouser	I would have used multimaps somewhere if we had them. I foreget where that was though...
15:15	rhickey	there will be assoc* and dissoc*, which add/remove from the set
15:16	jensli	assoc-multi?
15:16	rhickey	Chouser: to your question, my design distinguishes keys that support multiple values from keys that don't
15:16	cemerick	I guess I'd say it doesn't excite me. assoc-in and update-in are very capable
15:16	Chouser	some keys in a multimap would still only have one value? overwriting?
15:17	rhickey	(assoc* #*{:a 1} :a 42)) = error multi-assoc to single-value key
15:18	rhickey	(assoc #*{:a #{1}} :a 42)) = error single-assoc to multi-value key
15:18	rhickey	so the literal needs to distinguish, thus {:a 1 :b #{1}} yields single-value :a, multi-value :b
15:19	jensli	Just be carefull to minimize the amout of code that consists of '*' and '#'...
15:19	cemerick	rhickey: is there a performance improvement compared to update-in on a regular map?
15:20	rhickey	cemerick: no
15:20	Chouser	seems like multi-value keys would be more common than single-value in a #*{} -- perhaps use syntax to indicate the single case instead?
15:21	rhickey	but there will be a (contains-entry? mm k v)
15:21	Chouser	#*{:a 1 :a 2 [:b 3]}
15:21	rhickey	count is a count of vals, not keys
15:21	rhickey	er, count of entries
15:21	rhickey	a multimap is not merely a map os keys to sets
15:22	cemerick	rhickey: I'm surprised you're considering special reader syntax -- seems like a pretty minor structure.
15:22	rhickey	Chouser: but don't forget that literals often have runtime holes - #*{:a 1 :b a -set-I-already-made}
15:23	rhickey	cemerick: I have big plans
15:23	Chouser	cemerick: shhh. Soon I'll be petitioning for finger tree literals #*++[:a :b :c]
15:23	cemerick	hah
15:24	cemerick	Chouser: I was about to say something about bit-set literals, but nevermind :-P
15:24	rhickey	Chouser: good point, I want to discuss the general problem of supporting more core structures, I think you might get #[...]
15:24	jensli	I dont know if I dare to learn a language where people have so big plans...
15:24	rhickey	cemerick: bitsets, now that is uninteresting :)
15:25	cemerick	LOL
15:25	Chouser	rhickey: there are already a lot of restrictions on runtime holes for maps
15:25	rhickey	jensli: you can use just lists and pretend it's an old-fashioned Lisp
15:25	cemerick	jensli: "In Rich Hickey We Trust" is the motto here :-)
15:25	Chouser	no way to do this currently, right? {:a 1 (thing-that-produces-key-and-vals)}
15:26	rhickey	Chouser: I don't see that as the same at all, trying to replace many things with one
15:27	rhickey	what I'm really asking about is the space before the {}, i.e. #*, ## etc?
15:27	rhickey	jensli: forgot :)
15:28	rhickey	but it's true, there's a limit to how much symbol overloading we can do
15:29	rhickey	it could have been #set{...} and everything else in the future could have names in there
15:29	rhickey	#multimap{...}
15:30	Chouser	that's pretty close to #=(multimap ...) territory.
15:30	Chouser	I guess the args are evalutated at a different stage.
15:30	rhickey	Chouser: except the latter won't work with read-eval turned off
15:30	Chouser	eh. yeah.
15:30	wtetzner_	what does #= do?
15:31	Chouser	wtetzner_: read-time eval.
15:31	wtetzner_	oh
15:31	Chouser	wtetzner_: it's used by print-dup to generate very specific container types
15:32	rhickey	it's not like there's a ton of core-ish data structures. Started with lists/maps/vectors, added sets, only looking at finger trees and multimaps at present
15:32	Chouser	,(binding [print-dup false] (prn (sorted-map :a 1 :b 2)))
15:33	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
15:33	cemerick	such valuable real-estate, though....
15:33	Chouser	,(binding [print-dup true] (prn (sorted-map :a 1 :b 2)))
15:33	clojurebot	#=(clojure.lang.PersistentTreeMap/create {:a 1, :b 2})
15:34	Chouser	cemerick: trying to think up contrasts for the vs. Scala thread? :-)
15:34	cemerick	Chouser: I've got it queued up, haven't read it yet.
15:34	dmiles_afk	clojure use a real live java.lang.Integer right?
15:34	cemerick	I've actually been keeping up on my group reading quite a bit though.
15:34	Chouser	cemerick: don't bother
15:34	cemerick	ut-oh
15:34	dmiles_afk	something scala did was heavy boxing avoidance
15:34	Chouser	,(class 5)
15:34	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
15:35	dmiles_afk	the way they did that was when they compiled a finction they added extra unboxed signatures
15:36	cemerick	rhickey: what's the plan when some group needs to make heavy use of an entirely separate set of (for them) core data structures? bit-sets, k-d trees, and skip lists, or whatever.
15:36	dmiles_afk	a java lisp i work on uses boxed types.. i think Clojure could be considered Duck Types
15:37	dmiles_afk	Scala does heavy boxing avoidance
15:37	rhickey	cemerick: what happens when I want to combine your code that uses reader and someone else's?
15:37	dmiles_afk	so.. where i am going is trying to decide if the java lisp i work on should adopt Clojure's Duck Types vs Scalas boxing avoidance
15:37	Chouser	dmiles_afk: Clojure can use primitives for locals and method calls and returns.
15:38	cemerick	rhickey: hey, you're the expert! ;-) I presume the reader to be used is ns-specific, and declared as such in the top-level ns form?
15:38	dmiles_afk	Clojures method can leverage very fast box/unbox of the JVM since it staying inside java.lang.Number/* .. but..
15:38	rhickey	cemerick: but I want to use both in my files
15:38	Chouser	dmiles_afk: I believe limited support for primitive clojure fn args and clojure collections are planned.
15:38	dmiles_afk	i dont know if its more or less effectient than a LispInt
15:39	rhickey	cemerick: nevermind the hassles of making the supporting custom reader code accessible and available in advance of use
15:39	dmiles_afk	Chouser: yeah that is probaby needed.. but makes me wonder how needed
15:39	cemerick	rhickey: well, that sounds a little nutty :-) One reader per ns seems perfectly reasonable, and addresses anyone's domain-specific requirements.
15:39	Chouser	dmiles_afk: depends on your task, I suppose. I hardly ever need even the primitive locals, let alone anything larger-scope.
15:40	dmiles_afk	Scala did that just in case .. "because they used ScalaInt"
15:40	cemerick	rhickey: I know, I know. I'm just looking out for the whole general-applicability angle.
15:40	dmiles_afk	o they were avoid a worse case
15:40	dmiles_afk	its possible that Cljojures worsecase is not that bad
15:40	wtetzner_	if i do (SwingUtilities/invokeLater (fn [] (run-code "asdf"))), does run-code use the binding in the swing thread?
15:41	dmiles_afk	,(+ 5 1)
15:41	clojurebot	6
15:41	wtetzner_	is there a way to set a thread-local binding in the swing thread?
15:41	dmiles_afk	thats clojures worsecase i think
15:41	dmiles_afk	the (+ 5 1)
15:41	wtetzner_	without having to rebind for every fn i send to it?
15:41	dmiles_afk	well what would be more worsecase is (+ 2555 2551)
15:41	Chouser	wtetzner_: the only way the swing thread would have a local binding in place is if you put it right there in your anonymous fn
15:42	Chouser	wtetzner_: in other words, "no"
15:42	wtetzner_	ok
15:42	Chouser	dmiles_afk: well, + is a clojure-inlinable fn, so it can actually be working on primitives.
15:42	wtetzner_	so if i want a way to access the main JFrame in my gui, i should store it in a ref or something?
15:43	Chouser	wtetzner_: yes, or a global var or atom, or maybe a promise if you want to get fancy.
15:43	wtetzner_	promise?
15:43	dmiles_afk	Chouser: (- 2555 (+ 2555 2551)) the result fn would need to be a primitive
15:43	rhickey	cemerick: I don't know that you need custom reader support for data literals like bit-sets, k-d trees, and skip lists, other than #your-factory-fn{...}
15:43	arbscht	wtetzner_: I like to create partial functions capturing that kind of context. see for an example http://gist.github.com/164652
15:44	dmiles_afk	,(class (+ 2555 2551))
15:44	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
15:44	Chouser	rhickey: ooh, I'd take #my-fn{...} in a second, esp. if I get to read the ... myself
15:44	dmiles_afk	well it will proably always say that ')
15:44	dmiles_afk	[12:44] <clojurebot> j
15:44	dmiles_afk	oops
15:44	cemerick	rhickey: you do if those (or whatever) are you bread and butter. What if you had to write #vector[...] every time you use one?
15:44	Chouser	#my-ns/my-fn{ ... } -- perfectly composable
15:45	dmiles_afk	well it will proably always say that 'java.lang.Integer' on (class...) becasue class takes an Object
15:45	cemerick	Chouser: ssshh, I'm swinging for the fences here! ;-)
15:45	dmiles_afk	would for instance (class...) have 8 differnt singatures?
15:45	rhickey	Chouser: it's not that simple:
15:45	rhickey	user=> (def a 42)
15:45	rhickey	#'user/a
15:45	rhickey	user=> {:b a}
15:45	rhickey	{:b 42}
15:45	Chouser	cemerick: but I don't want your uncomposable readers! :-)
15:46	dmiles_afk	(that what scala did.. but still)
15:46	dmiles_afk	actually maybe in the end scala and clojure would have 15 possibles
15:46	cemerick	Chouser: why not both? :-)
15:47	dmiles_afk	the [Z [B etc
15:47	rhickey	note how the compiler can generate a data literal expression that involves evaluation
15:47	cemerick	I know a couple of people for whom notation is everything, which is why I keep bouncing on this particular nerve
15:48	rhickey	cemerick: wanting something and providing an answer to these critical questions are two different things
15:48	Chouser	cemerick: yes, and those people would write a lib that required a notation that clashed with someone else's lib, and everyone would be stuck.
15:48	rhickey	also, there is distinguishing use in code from use in data files
15:49	rhickey	in practice, reader macros are not often used in CL and when used in libraries, widely despised, due to these issues
15:49	Chouser	dmiles_afk: repl-utils/expression-info lets you see when the Clojure compiler would emit code that uses primitives.
15:50	dmiles_afk	Chouser: yeah i betting sometimes the compiler can identify a all primitive situation pretty well
15:51	Chouser	well, #*{} is about as intuitive a choice as you'll find, i think, for multimap
15:52	cark	rhickey : reader macros are maybe bad for libraries but sometimes usefull at the application level
15:52	Chouser	though #{} for very value is pretty noisy and potentially misleading.
15:52	rhickey	Chouser: I thought so, given assoc* and dissoc*, but open to suggestions
15:53	cemerick	rhickey: would Chouser's #ns/fn{...} idea be potentially better in terms of library interop (regardless of the evaluation issues)?
15:53	rhickey	Chouser: true, in the 'all keys will support multi' it's very verbose
15:54	rhickey	cemerick: I don't know, I think Chouser wants more inside {} than I was talking about with #your-factory-fn{...}
15:55	rhickey	but the point I raised about evaluation of subcomponents is important. Right now, e.g. #= does not eval subcomponents/args
15:55	rhickey	so supports read-time constants only
15:56	rhickey	#your/fn[every one of these is evaluated] would be doable
15:56	rhickey	or #your/fn{every one of these is evaluated}
15:58	rhickey	that's different from #your/fn{gets to read this and return some arbitrary thing}
15:59	rhickey	but as I said, it's not that simple
16:00	rhickey	when I read {:fred ethel :ricky lucy} you get a map of keywords to symbols
16:00	rhickey	but the evaluator will in turn evaluate that map-as-code and try to resolve ethel and lucy
16:00	rhickey	getting the same for your data structures would be more involved
16:02	Chouser	yes, I want more in #my-fn{...} than rhickey wants to give me.
16:03	Chouser	rhickey: but perhaps I see your point -- the evaluator knows how to eval a map, but might not know how to eval a my-collection.
16:03	rhickey	Chouser: exactly
16:04	rhickey	(def a 42) #my-collection{a} == ?
16:04	rhickey	I presume you don't want a collection with a symbol in it
16:04	cemerick	I guess I keep thinking about it in terms of the clojure reader simply being a particular implementation that parses and evaluates things in a specific way...some other reader would have its own rules, but still apply them with the assistance of an evaluation mechanism that returns a value given a symbol.
16:05	rhickey	cemerick: reading and evaluation are separate
16:05	cemerick	oh, definitely...that's what I'm getting at
16:06	rhickey	but evaluation isn't just symbols, that's just my example. you could have calls, other nested data structures etc that need to be evaluated
16:07	cemerick	ah. See, I'm assuming that the userland reader would have to identify such things and hand them up to the default reader to be handled appropriately.
16:08	rhickey	cemerick: it's not happening at read time, but at evaluation time, later
16:08	Chouser	even without user reader macros, would you have similar questions about supporting more core collections?
16:09	rhickey	Chouser: it would be great to focus on collection extensibility right now, userland reader macros is an exhausting topic with no answers afaict
16:11	rhickey	for truly extensible collection support you need: extensible syntax, a way to get at code for read-time data collection construction, a way to get at code for evaluation of custom collection literals
16:12	rhickey	i.e. Expr support for your collection type
16:12	rhickey	the latter is not nothing
16:13	Chouser	does CL not have this issue because its only literal is the list?
16:13	Chouser	only literal collection
16:16	rhickey	Chouser: CL doesn't have any evaluation in data literals, only constants, and backquote, the latter is hardwired for lists and vectors
16:18	Howard	question about commiting changes to clojure-contrib
16:18	Howard	does Rich extend write access to the repository
16:18	Howard	or do we fork it, make changes, request a pull (via GitHub)?
16:18	Howard	(I'm on the contributor list)
16:19	Chousuke	for contrib, there are contributors, a handful of committers and rich
16:19	Chouser	Howard: http://clojure.org/patches
16:19	Chousuke	but most stuff is sent via patches, yes
16:19	Chouser	pull requests aren't used anywhere currently
16:19	kotarak	Pull requests require a high level discipline..
16:20	kotarak	Which makes them not very suitable for open contribution, I guess.
16:20	Howard	Sorry I missed that ...
16:20	Chousuke	you'll be fine if you just use git format-patch to generate the patches from your commits
16:20	Howard	Sure, seems like a lot of trouble though
16:20	Chouser	Howard: the list of people with commit access is at the bottom of this page: http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/tree/master
16:20	Howard	it means I can't really be self sufficient
16:21	Chousuke	Howard: sure you can. just commit to your own git repo as much as you want and do a git format-patch when you're ready to send in your changes.
16:21	Chousuke	the patch files generated contain git commit info so all important data is preserved.
16:22	Howard	It's just a bit different from the Apache way, where once you are accepted as a committer, you can commit
16:22	rhickey	Chouser: In CL, if you want to do the equivalent of [a b c] you need `#(,a ,b ,c)
16:22	Chouser	right, clojure has four levels: user, contributor, committer, and Rich.
16:23	Chouser	rhickey: ow
16:23	Howard	Ok, so just attach my patch to my ticket, then rich will apply it and close it
16:23	Chousuke	rhickey: is #() really equivalent to [] though? :/
16:23	Howard	And identify the ticket number is the commit message
16:23	rhickey	so Clojure is way ahead in having vectors/maps/sets with read/print/evaluation support
16:24	kotarak	Huge advantage! I really like the easy access to maps and vectors!
16:24	rhickey	Chousuke: no, that's my point CL #() is not Clojure []
16:24	Chousuke	Howard: you can add "fixes #nnn" to your commit message and assembla will autoclose the bug when it's committed :)
16:25	kotarak	Chousuke: which Rich doesn't really like, he prefers "refers #nnn"...
16:25	Chouser	Howard: if the patch is for contrib, you'll one of the committers will commit and close the ticket.
16:25	rhickey	nor is Clojure [a b c] == (vector a b c), because it reads as a true vector of symbols
16:26	Chousuke	yeah, that's what I thought.
16:26	Chouser	rhickey: it's that latter point that I'd not really internalized before.
16:27	Chousuke	Chouser: heh.
16:27	rhickey	Chouser: that's the key to print/read being a replacement for JSON/XML, useful when there's no eval at all
16:27	Chousuke	Chouser: it reads a data structure, then calls (vec stuff-that-was-just-read)
16:28	Chousuke	Chouser: or in my reader, I actually always read stuff into vectors (because they expand at the end) and then do (apply hash-map...) or (set ...) on it.
16:29	Chousuke	a bit wasteful but easy :P
16:30	Chouser	right, but I hadn't thought through the consequences of having things other than lists in what the reader produces. That is that eval has different behavior based on the type of thing that was read.
16:31	Chouser	I mean, I guess I knew that, but didn't understand all the consequences.
16:31	Chousuke	it has consequences with macros too.
16:31	Licenser	Hi everyone
16:32	Licenser	is there any list of the keywords Clojure has?
16:32	Chousuke	keywords? you mean special forms?
16:32	hiredman	they are listen on a side somewhere
16:32	hiredman	slide
16:32	hiredman	there are seven or so
16:32	Chousuke	def, fn* loop, let*, ., try, ... hmm. I forget.
16:33	Licenser	hmm yes the things I can put in the first argument of a () to do something, things like def and if
16:33	hiredman	Licenser: well you can put any function there
16:33	hiredman	or any IFn
16:33	Licenser	I hean the build in ones, not self defined ones
16:33	Licenser	so if yes but and not
16:34	kotarak	Licenser: (approximately) http://clojure.org/API
16:34	Chouser	Licenser: use the source!
16:34	Chousuke	ah, right, if of course.
16:34	hiredman	http://clojure.org/special_forms
16:34	Licenser	Use the source Luke!
16:34	Licenser	hiredman: thanks that is what I was looking for :d
16:35	hiredman	this is lisp, the difference between built in and built on is negligible
16:35	Chousuke	that page is lying anyway. some of the special forms listed are actually macros
16:35	Licenser	oi :/
16:35	Chouser	right, depends on why you want to know
16:35	Howard	at the risk of sounding stupid; after I've attached my patch, what action do I take on the ticket (i.e., "mark ready to test") and do I reassign it?
16:36	kotarak	But the star form is the special form, fn=>fn, let=>let
16:36	Chousuke	yeah.
16:36	Licenser	Chouser: for highlighting source ^^
16:36	Chouser	Licenser: use the source if you want the actual list of real builtins. Use the web page if you want to know what's promised.
16:36	Chouser	Licenser: ah. use the web page.
16:36	Chousuke	I wonder if newnew will cause fn* to go away.
16:36	kotarak	I highlight according to the web page.
16:37	Howard	I wonder if newnew will get a better name :-}
16:37	rhickey	so, back to multimaps - any feedback other than you're all disappointed you're not getting what you really wanted? :)
16:37	Chouser	the fact that fn is a macro but fn* is builtin is just an implementation detail -- may change at any moment.
16:37	rhickey	Howard: its has - reify
16:37	Chousuke	oh, right. you decided on that then? :)
16:37	cemerick	ah-ha, didn't know it was official :-)
16:37	hiredman	neato
16:38	rhickey	I could go with #mmap{...} pretending that one day #blah{} will be extensible
16:38	rhickey	but Chouser's point on verbosity with all-multi-keys is valid
16:39	hiredman	#mmap would require some adjustment to the reader, wouldn't it?
16:39	rhickey	hiredman: yes
16:39	Chouser	rhickey: you specicially want to support providing a set at runtime for multiple values?
16:39	rhickey	this would be a new core datatype
16:40	rhickey	Chouser: dunno, right now in the design I am supporting any collection as the init for a multikey
16:40	rhickey	i.e. you can't have a singlekey that maps to a collection
16:41	Chouser	ah, ok ... I was just trying to phrase that point. :-)
16:41	rhickey	so #*{:a 1 :b [2 3]} would work too
16:41	hiredman	hmmm
16:41	rhickey	this mostly for the evaluated case #*{:a 1 :b (a-seq-fn)}
16:42	Chouser	what about {:a 1 :b #*expr} ?
16:42	Chousuke	wait, what datatype is this?
16:42	hiredman	multimap
16:42	Chouser	that way {:a [1 2] :b #*[3 4]} would have :a as a single key, :b as a multi
16:42	rhickey	Chouser: nothing around {}? multimap triggered by #* inside?
16:43	Chouser	sure
16:43	rhickey	how do you make an empty multimap or one initialized with only single keys?
16:43	Chousuke	that would make my reader design rather ineffective :-(
16:43	Chouser	or both, I suppose. #{:a 1 :b #[2]} My main point was new reader support for the mutli-values
16:44	hiredman	rhickey: well assoc* on a regular map could return a multimap?
16:44	rhickey	Chouser: are you saying :b is a multikey or :a?
16:44	Chouser	that doesn't help remove clutter, but it makes single-value collections possible.
16:44	Chouser	rhickey: ooh, I meant :b as multikey, but the alternative is interesting.
16:44	rhickey	Chouser: I don't think I care about singlekeys mapping to collections
16:45	rhickey	lots of complexity elsewhere if supported
16:45	Chouser	#*{:a #.:single :b [:multi]} bleh.
16:46	wtetzner_	so a multimap is a map whose keys can hold multiple values?
16:46	rhickey	I am trying to address #*{:a [1] :b [2] :c [3] ...} when you want all the keys to be multi
16:46	Chouser	yeah, though even that is better than #{} for each value
16:47	rhickey	wtetzner: basically, with the twist that some keys can be non-multi, and that is enforced
16:47	kotarak	Why not making multi the default? #*{:a 1 :b 2 #1 :c 3} (with c single key.)?
16:48	wtetzner_	rhickey: oh, i see
16:48	wtetzner_	rhickey: so that's why a map of vectors isn't the same thing
16:48	Chousuke	#*[:a :b]{:a 1 :b 2 :c [1 2 3]}? :P
16:48	Chousuke	iffy.
16:48	rhickey	kotarak: taking colls in the literal is not bad, as (#*{:a 1 :b [2 3]} :b) -> #{2 3}
16:49	wtetzner_	are multimaps used often enough to give it reader syntax?
16:50	rhickey	wtetzner_: depends upon your domain
16:51	wtetzner_	maybe something like this: {:a 1 :b 2 \| :c [1 2 3] :d [4]}
16:51	rhickey	so far today they seem not so popular :(
16:51	wtetzner_	where single keys and multikeys are divided by a \|
16:51	Chouser	why not support both repeated keys and collection values to indicate multi.
16:52	rhickey	Chouser: repeated keys seem really painful
16:52	rhickey	and would never print that way
16:53	cemerick	rhickey: I just don't see the big deal given update/assoc-in, sorry. :-\|
16:53	cemerick	rhickey: you've got the vision thing, though, which trumps a lot
16:54	Chouser	ok, so the real clutter issue is when you when you want to declare a key as multi but have zero, one, or a runtime expression value.
16:54	rhickey	cemerick: there are differences in seq/count, can test for contains-entry
16:54	rhickey	Chouser: pretty much
16:54	rhickey	cemerick: do you do anything with RDF?
16:55	cemerick	ah-ha
16:55	cemerick	no, thank goodness
16:55	wtetzner_	rhickey: is it neccessary to have a special character at the front for it to be a reader macro?
16:55	Chouser	so now I'm liking wtetzner_'s suggestion
16:56	rhickey	Chouser: the problem with that (separator) is the asymmetry with whatever the factory fn will be
16:56	wtetzner_	why couldn't the factory function do something like that?
16:57	wtetzner_	is \| a legal symbol?
16:57	wtetzner_	i guess it might be bound to something though
16:57	rhickey	wtetzner_: take \| as an argument?
16:57	wtetzner_	rhickey: yeah, but i guess that's a bad idea
16:57	rhickey	very difficult, will mess up apply and composition in general
16:58	Chouser	#*[:a :b]{:c nil :d [1 2] :e 3 :b 5}
16:58	kotarak	rhickey: why do you need enforcement of single-keyd-ness?
16:59	wtetzner_	do reader macros require that the starting character is a special character?
16:59	Chouser	every key is multi unless noted in the []. (multi-map single-keys map-thing)
16:59	Chousuke	Chouser: heh, I suggested the same earlier ;P
16:59	wtetzner_	could you do something nicer like M{:a 1 :b 2 :c [1 2 3] :d [4]}
17:00	rhickey	Chouser: thinking through composition scenarios, I see needing to ask for single keys etc
17:00	Chousuke	wtetzner_: that makes symbol parsing a lot more complicated
17:00	Chouser	Chousuke: yeah, I saw that, but I thought you were listing the multis
17:00	saml	did you write a computer game in clojure? 2d or 3d with audio?
17:00	wtetzner_	ok
17:00	Chouser	Chousuke: though looking at it a again, perhaps you weren't. :-)
17:00	Chousuke	wtetzner_: it's easier to have some special character for use in reader macros
17:00	wtetzner_	but all of the special characters are starting to make it look too much like perl
17:01	wtetzner_	maybe #M{...}
17:01	Chousuke	Well, ^#'foo is pushing it, yes, but ....
17:01	Chousuke	it's nowhere near perl.
17:02	Chouser	$_=~/(.)$/ # perl
17:02	wtetzner_	haha
17:02	wtetzner_	i didn't say it was as bad as perl, just that i don't want it to get any closer to perl
17:03	Chousuke	but certainly alphanumerics are usable for reader dispatch, as long as the # remains in place :P
17:03	wtetzner_	ah
17:04	kotarak	When we drop the enforcement of single-keyd-ness, wouldn't then the hassle just disappear? #*{:a [1] :b [1 2 3]} ... Don't care for :a being single-key or not ....
17:04	rhickey	kotarak: It's an enhancement to the normal multimap thing, much easier to use these - without it there will always be some keys for which 'there should only be one' and manually enforcing that is tedious
17:04	rhickey	kotarak: well, you'd say #*{:a 1 :b [1 2 3]} in that case then
17:05	rhickey	only using coll when more than one
17:05	wtetzner_	what if you wanted a key to have a collection as its value?
17:05	wtetzner_	but only one collection
17:05	Chouser	zero-value case is annoying too.
17:05	rhickey	wtetzner_: can't
17:05	rhickey	Chouser: ?
17:05	JAS415	i don't get it, what does the * mean
17:06	rhickey	JAS415: placeholder for something indicating multimap
17:06	kotarak	rhickey: #*{:a [[1]] :b [1 2 3]} .... would allow that, again enforcing single-keyd-ness is the problem... (Just strip one set of [] to get the values...)
17:06	JAS415	oh
17:07	Chouser	#*{:a [1 2 3] :b [4] :c 5 :d nil} even if :a and :b are multis, and :c is single (ie. our clutterful option), what's :d? a single nil, or an empty multi?
17:08	wtetzner_	Chouser: if it was multi, wouldn't it be #*{:a [1 2 3] :b [4] :c 5 :d [nil]} ?
17:08	rhickey	Chouser: single nil, use [] for emtpy multi
17:08	wtetzner_	or that
17:08	Chouser	wtetzner_: [nil] would be a multi with currently just one nil.
17:09	Chouser	ok, so clutterful handles zero value case ok: nil vs. []
17:09	rhickey	clutterful, h? :)
17:09	kotarak	I don't like the "no vectors" taste... :(
17:10	Chouser	rhickey: can you eloborate re: thinking through composition scenarios, I see needing to ask for single keys etc
17:10	kotarak	Then multi-maps don't nest anymore with the rest of the collections ...
17:10	rhickey	Chouser: what happens when you want to make a new multimap out of others?
17:10	rhickey	kotarak: they nest in
17:11	rhickey	a key point of multimaps is the flattening that they do. As cemerick has pointed out, you can have mappings to sets right now
17:11	kotarak	rhickey: But I can't do #*{:a []} (single-key with empty vector value)
17:11	rhickey	kotarak: I understand
17:12	Chouser	oh, we don't even have a 'push'. sheesh.
17:13	rhickey	Chouser: heh, I just did (doc push) before :)
17:13	wtetzner_	maybe: #M{[:a 1 :b 2] [:c [1 2 3] :d [4]]}, with a constructor function (multi-map [:a 1 :b 2] [:c [1 2 3] :d [4]])
17:14	wtetzner_	or #M{(:a 1 :b 2) (:c [1 2 3] :d [4])}
17:14	Chouser	I think that's got the same composition problem that I'm trying to grok.
17:14	rhickey	wtetzner_: if you're not going to get out of :d [4] there's no point to separating them
17:15	rhickey	Chouser: what's the zipmap equiv for multimaps?
17:15	rhickey	keying off the collection-ality of the val is easy
17:15	rhickey	separate keysets is hard
17:16	Chousuke	metadata? :P
17:16	Chouser	what will conj do?
17:17	rhickey	personally, most handwritten map inits are small, so I think this might be a non-problem. I'll go with collection inits for multikeys in the first pass and we'll see if it is a real problem
17:17	Chouser	(conj #*{} [:a 1] [:a 2]) ; ok or not?
17:18	wtetzner_	how about #M{:a 1 :b 2 :c \|1 2 3\| :d \|4\|}, so you're not using the vector syntax
17:18	wtetzner_	although that has the constructor asymmetry problem
17:18	rhickey	Chouser: I think conj will do assoc*
17:19	rhickey	since :a is not already there and single, will be ok, build a multikey for :a
17:20	kotarak	Why not making all keys multi per default and require a constructor for single keys? (multi-map [:a :b] :a 1 :b 2 :c [1 2 3])?
17:24	krumholt__	if anyone is particularly bored maybe make a patch so that bit-or accepts an arbitrary number of arguments :)
17:30	JAS415	im having too much fun searching for lolcats on twitter :-P
17:33	Chouser	JAS415: maybe make a patch so that bit-or accepts an arbitrary number of arguments :-)
17:33	JAS415	hahaha okay i'll look at it
17:33	Chousuke	shouldn't be too difficult :/
17:34	JAS415	yeah it should be just like + or -
17:35	kotarak	Why do I get that: "java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.Namespace.importClass(Ljava/lang/Class;)Ljava/lang/Class;" when I try to compile c.c.lazy-xml?
17:37	kotarak	Hmm.. I tells me, it's from seq_utils.clj:24...
17:38	alrex021	Hi guys. Need some help please to review a snippet of code I wrote. I pretty sure it can be inmproved
17:38	alrex021	oops, trigger happy
17:38	kotarak	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/136443
17:38	kotarak	^^^ the stacktrace
17:39	Chouser	kotarak: doing anything unusual with classloaders?
17:40	kotarak	Chouser: not really. just setting up different compilation trees for the Ivy packages. Lazy-xml (/ seq-utils?) is the only package so far, where I see this-
17:41	melling	trying to get slime working. Get an error launching inferior-lisp... can't find swank.clj
17:41	melling	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: swank.swank (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
17:41	melling	what do I have to set in my .emacs.
17:41	melling	these files are in /opt/swank-clojure/swank
17:43	melling	thought this would do it.
17:43	melling	(setq swank-clojure-extra-classpaths (list "/opt/lib/java/clojure-contrib.jar:/opt/swank-clojure"))
17:43	kotarak	Chouser: Ok. Found the problem. For some reason, lazy-xml uses the clojure-1.0.0.jar, while the others use a more recent version.
17:44	kotarak	Argh... DRY caught me again.
17:45	alrex021	I have two vectors of user roles. new-roles and existing-roles. I must remove old roles that are not in new-roles and add any from new-roles that re not in existing-roles. (I know I could just replace the old ones in existing-roles...but I actually want to leave those intact.) I'm sure there are better ways to do this. any comments welcome. http://gist.github.com/175860
17:47	alrex021	I'm trying to compare some code I had to write today at work in pure java, quite a loop headache as compare to what I even have so far in clojure.
17:48	arohner	has anyone gotten slime to print test/is output in your slime window rather than the console when using slime-connect?
17:48	clojurebot	slime is icky
17:49	kotarak	alrex021: maybe you want sets?
17:49	arohner	alrex021: yeah, using vectors for this seems weird
17:50	arohner	I would use a set or a map
17:50	arohner	then you can use contains?
17:50	arohner	or set/difference
17:50	technomancy	arohner: try clojure-test-mode; it shows the test output in the test buffer itself.
17:51	arohner	technomancy: I don't have a clojure-test-mode, where do you get it?
17:51	JAS415	ok, i've made the changes to make it take multiple args
17:51	technomancy	arohner: http://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode
17:51	technomancy	haven't updated it for clojure 1.1 though. =\
17:52	JAS415	now i have to figure out assembla
17:52	melling	Put path in clj-server file: http://yusupov.com/blog/2009/basic-clojure-setup-part-2
17:52	melling	I'm done!
17:53	arohner	technomancy: oh wow my clojure-mode is old. 2008/11/13
17:54	technomancy	arohner: you're missing out!
17:55	drewr	whoa
17:59	JAS415	how do i add a ticket to assembla?
18:00	rhickey	https://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure-contrib/support/tickets
18:00	rhickey	https://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/support/tickets
18:00	JAS415	ah thanks
18:00	rhickey	if you are not a contributor
18:03	hiredman	~ticket #164
18:03	clojurebot	{:url http://tinyurl.com/kmlk4k, :summary "[PATCH] embedded constants", :status :test, :priority :low, :created-on "2009-08-02T03:20:33+00:00"}
18:04	hiredman	not that that has anything to do with anything, it just caught my eye
18:05	hiredman	~ticket #2
18:05	clojurebot	{:url http://tinyurl.com/l6lcfw, :summary "Scopes", :status :new, :priority :normal, :created-on "2009-06-15T12:35:58+00:00"}
18:07	alrex021	kotarak: here is an improved ver that uses sets with difference and intersection http://gist.github.com/175860
18:09	alrex021	not to sure if its smart to to do difference and intersection and then use into to conjoin them
18:10	hiredman	clojure.set operations use sequences internally anyway
18:10	hiredman	:/
18:14	hiredman	~ticket #112
18:14	clojurebot	{:url http://tinyurl.com/nbtghb, :summary "GC Issue 108: All Clojure interfaces should specify CharSequence instead of String when possible", :status :new, :priority :low, :created-on "2009-06-17T21:06:11+00:00"}
18:15	hiredman	##java seemed to think this idea was broken for some reason, bugs with handling charsequences in jvm?
18:16	hiredman	http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4838318 ooh "3-Accepted"
18:17	kotarak	alrex021: what you do now is only the identity, no? A = A \ B union A intersect B, which is exactly what you wrote there.
18:24	bitbckt	~latest
18:24	clojurebot	latest is 1382
18:24	Chousuke	hmm
18:24	Chousuke	that's somehow wrong.
18:24	hiredman	latest is left over from svn
18:24	hiredman	~commit
18:24	clojurebot	I don't understand.
18:25	hiredman	bah
18:25	bitbckt	I'm just exploring.
18:25	bitbckt	hehe
18:25	hiredman	~last commit
18:25	clojurebot	Huh?
18:25	JAS415	user=> (bit-xor 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)
18:25	JAS415	(bit-xor 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)
18:25	JAS415	11
18:25	hiredman	huh
18:26	hiredman	(doc bit-xor)
18:26	clojurebot	"([x y]); Bitwise exclusive or"
18:26	hiredman	JAS415: that throws an IllegalArgumentException for me
18:27	Chousuke	you need a CA to contribute though :/
18:28	Chousuke	even for trivial patches ;(
18:29	JAS415	yeah i need to submit the patch
18:29	JAS415	hm
18:29	JAS415	is there any reason to do (reduce / (x y) more)
18:29	JAS415	instead of
18:30	JAS415	(/ x (reduce * y more))
18:30	Chousuke	the two-argument versions are inlined
18:30	JAS415	yeah i think i got a patch for that too
18:30	Chousuke	and I think the former is neater.
18:31	JAS415	yeah but / is a lot less efficient than *
18:31	arohner	technomancy: when I install clojure-mode through ELPA, now C-c C-l (load file) doesn't work on new buffers created after I slime-connect
18:31	JAS415	just wondering if there was a situation where it was mathematically different
18:31	kotarak	ANd x is a function? (reduce / x (cons y more))
18:31	JAS415	like maybe with imaginary number or something
18:31	Chousuke	JAS415: hm, right.
18:31	technomancy	arohner: how about C-c C-k?
18:31	Chousuke	doesn't support imaginary numbers anyway
18:31	JAS415	(reduce / (/ x y) more)
18:31	Chousuke	er. /
18:31	JAS415	shuld be that, was a typo
18:32	arohner	technomancy: undefined
18:32	JAS415	okay
18:32	arohner	what function does that map to?
18:32	JAS415	i'll do it with the * anyway
18:33	technomancy	arohner: slime-compile-and-load-file
18:33	technomancy	arohner: does it show "Slime[clojure]" in the modeline?
18:33	arohner	no, it shows just (Clojure)
18:33	arohner	buffers that were open before the slime connect work fine
18:34	technomancy	arohner: try M-x slime-mode then
18:34	arohner	hrm. there may be some funkiness in my .emacs screwing with clojure-install
18:34	arohner	let me retest
18:34	technomancy	somehow the hook to activate that automatically must not be run
19:32	JAS415	assembla is pretty neat
20:16	arohner	If I want to access a nested class, its (Outer$Inner/method), right?
20:16	arohner	http://webdriver.googlecode.com/svn/javadoc/index.html?index-all.html
20:17	arohner	(WebDriver$Options/setSpeed Speed/SLOW) is not working for me
20:17	arohner	or am I missing something?
20:18	rhickey	setSpeed is not a static method
20:20	rhickey	arohner: what kind of driver are you using?
20:20	arohner	HtmlUnitDriver
20:21	krumholt__	if java expects null as a parameter can i just use nil?
20:21	rhickey	(-> (HtmlUnitDriver.) manage (setSpeed Speed/SLOW)))
20:22	rhickey	some .s in there
20:22	arohner	rhickey: ah, thanks
20:24	durka421	krumholt__: yes
20:24	krumholt__	durka42, thanks
20:25	Chouser	rhickey: so you'd be open to 'cons' calling a method on a collection. It never does that currently.
20:26	rhickey	,(doc cons)
20:26	clojurebot	"([x seq]); Returns a new seq where x is the first element and seq is the rest."
20:26	Chouser	I don't need a ruling immediately. :-)
20:26	rhickey	wouldthat still be true?
20:27	Chouser	yes
20:27	rhickey	then I think it's good
20:27	rhickey	finger trees are uber-seqs
20:27	Chouser	,(class (cons 5 '(1 2 3)))
20:27	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
20:28	Chouser	PersistentLists are also seqs, but don't get to participate in cons.
20:28	rhickey	,(class (cons 42 nil))
20:28	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
20:28	Chouser	whee!
20:30	rhickey	not sure this should be:
20:30	rhickey	,(class (cons 12 (cons 42 nil)))
20:30	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
20:30	Chouser	right
20:30	rhickey	but in any case cons makes no promise about the return type other than seq
20:30	Chouser	,(take 4 (map class (iterate #(cons 1 %) nil)))
20:30	clojurebot	(nil clojure.lang.PersistentList clojure.lang.Cons clojure.lang.Cons)
20:30	Chouser	(doc rest)
20:30	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a possibly empty seq of the items after the first. Calls seq on its argument."
20:31	Chouser	(doc next)
20:31	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a seq of the items after the first. Calls seq on its argument. If there are no more items, returns nil."
20:31	Chouser	I should be able to do those too.
20:31	rhickey	right
20:32	rhickey	otherwise you're not really a seq
20:32	Chouser	but that means my .seq will have to return this, while rseq can return a cursor object
20:32	rhickey	yes (identical? ft (seq ft)) -> true
20:33	Chouser	another thought I had was a .reverse that actually just flipped a switch to allow conj/pop from the other side.
20:33	rhickey	trickier will be wiring into concat
20:34	Chouser	IConcat? :-)
20:34	rhickey	could be
20:35	Chouser	I dunno thought, that would break the current docstring. not a lazy seq
20:35	Chouser	back in a minute...
20:40	Chouser	I would tend to think ft-concat is not the same thing as concat.
20:41	rhickey	why not?
20:41	rhickey	there's just nothing to be lazy about
20:42	Chouser	concat works on anything seqable. ft-concat only works on ft's with the same measure/reduce functions.
20:42	clojurebot	functions are maps
20:43	rhickey	Chouser: you'll have to explain those to me more
20:47	Chouser	their first example is a measure of size and a reduce of add
20:48	Chouser	so the measure is (constantly 1)
20:49	Chouser	and the reduce is +
20:49	Chouser	a node of 3 elements [1 2 3] would cache it's reduced measure of 3
20:50	Chouser	these operations are done when nodes are constructured, and then used for operations like split
20:50	Chouser	in this case, split can use these measures to ask for the nth element of the tree
20:51	Chouser	but you might have application-specific functions as well, for priority queues and such.
20:54	rhickey	ok, so concat could concat 2 non-conforming fts
20:55	rhickey	do your fts have to have measure/reduce fns?
20:55	Chouser	right, by walking them. but it would not produce a ft that you could split
20:56	Chouser	no
20:56	rhickey	ok, then separate ft concat
20:57	Chouser	but you can't split without measure, just conj l/r
20:58	rhickey	do you support multiple measure/reduce pairs at once?
20:58	Chouser	huh. the paper doesn't seem to define pop/next
20:59	Chouser	rhickey: I plan to. the paper supports multiples by combining functions -- my current plan is to allow a set of named measure/reduce pairs
20:59	rhickey	isn't pop whatthey ar ecalling deque?
21:00	Chouser	they define little triangles to the left and right, which are conj l/r
21:01	Chouser	then they define reduce and seq-like views
21:01	Chouser	I don't see an actual "deque" operation.
21:04	rhickey	I think pop/next are split
21:04	rhickey	?
21:04	Chouser	could be
21:06	Chouser	but split as they define it requires a measure fn, and I ought to be able to do pop/next without any measure/reduce.
22:12	Chouser	any reason delay is not IMeta?
22:29	Chouser	I can't tell if reductions must be delayed, or if that's even possible.
22:40	JAS415	hmm
22:41	JAS415	is binding as complicated as it seems to me?
22:43	Chouser	ok, I think can't be delayed.
22:44	Chouser	JAS415: are you referring to the use of thread-local bindings, or something else?
22:44	JAS415	i guess i am just kind of wondering how I know when I am in a specific thread
22:44	JAS415	in a swing app for example
22:45	JAS415	like I do a binding to something and call (main)
22:45	JAS415	then it seems like it gets unbound when I use menus and stuff
22:45	JAS415	possibly because they're creating threads under the hood?
22:46	Chouser	(binding [x 5] (foo)) will only have x bound until (foo) returns
22:47	JAS415	ooh
22:47	JAS415	okay
22:47	JAS415	so it has to do with when it returns
22:47	JAS415	hmm
22:48	Chouser	binding is very much a temporary kind of thing, for a particular dynamic excursion down the call stack.
22:49	JAS415	i was hoping i could create new threads with different bindings kind of enclosed in them
22:50	Chouser	if the thread stays busy in some kind of event loop, then wrapping a single binding around that will work.
22:50	tomoj	hmm.. would (Thread. (binding [x 3] foo)) work?
22:51	tomoj	or since you're returning a function there, the binding is ignored?
22:51	Chouser	(Thread. #(binding [x 3] (foo))) would work
22:51	JAS415	what was trying was (thread. #(binding [x 3] (foo)))
22:51	JAS415	problem was
22:52	JAS415	(foo) returns
22:52	JAS415	i still have the window open
22:52	JAS415	and nothing is bound anymore
22:52	Chouser	right
22:52	JAS415	so i just need to keep it from returning
22:53	JAS415	yeah so i can make it sleep
22:55	JAS415	hmm
22:55	JAS415	nope
22:55	JAS415	(new Thread #(let [[con prov](login xx
22:56	JAS415	xx)]
22:56	JAS415	(binding [tw/consumer con
22:56	JAS415	tw/provider prov]
22:56	JAS415	(main-window)
22:56	JAS415	(loop [] (recur)))))
22:56	JAS415	doesn't seem to work
22:56	Chouser	aren't all swing events sent to a single thread?
22:56	JAS415	well that would explain a lot :-P
22:56	wtetzner	yeah swing isn't thread safe
22:56	JAS415	bummer
22:57	wtetzner	so you need to use (javax.swing.SwingUtilities/invokeLater some-function)
22:57	wtetzner	and it sends some-function to the swing thread
23:00	wtetzner	does anyone know how the swing thread starts?
23:01	wtetzner	oh
23:01	wtetzner	nevermind
23:02	wtetzner	http://www.javapractices.com/topic/TopicAction.do?Id=153
23:06	JAS415	hmm
23:07	JAS415	maybe i'll try a different approach
23:11	wtetzner	i wonder if there's a way to intercept the creation of the swing event thread
23:11	wtetzner	to add bindings to it
23:12	Chouser	why not use lexical scope instead?
23:13	wtetzner	well, i was just thinking it would be nice to be able to bind the main JFrame to a swing var
23:14	wtetzner	since swing isn't thread safe, it feels wrong to store it in a global reference like a ref or atom, or global var
23:16	JAS415	ah
23:16	JAS415	well what i was hoping to do was have multiple logins
23:16	JAS415	which is actually kind of orthogonal to whether or not swing is thread safe
23:17	JAS415	just that the things that have to activate and interact with the logins have to be in a specific thread if I want to use thread-local bindings
23:17	wtetzner	well you can use (javax.swing.SwingUtilities/invokeLater some-function) to interact with swing
23:21	JAS415	reason i would rather not do lexical scope is that it seems like i'd be passing a lot of stuff directly
23:21	Chouser	could you close over it instead of passing it?
23:23	JAS415	yeah i was considering that
23:23	JAS415	generating all the functions when the person logs in and closing over the results
23:31	JAS415	what if i just created a seperate process?
23:32	Chouser	wow. big hammer.
23:32	JAS415	yeah i guess too big