#clojure – 2009-08-27

2009-08-27

00:07	lowlycoder	this really bit me: are vars created via defn and def dynamically, rather than lexicallys coped?
00:07	lowlycoder	are bindings created via let lexically scoped, or are they somehow dynamicallys coped too?
00:20	rathore	let is lexically scoped
00:21	JAS415	uh
00:21	JAS415	let is lexical
00:21	JAS415	def and defn are dynamic
00:21	JAS415	(vars)
00:21	JAS415	binding form can alter a var's.. binding
00:31	lowlycoder	anyone here running clojure on the mac?
00:46	tomoj	yeah
00:51	durka42	me too
00:59	rathore	me too
01:01	rathore	development on mac, all deployments on ubuntu
01:02	durka42	rhickey uses a mac too, doesn't he
01:04	tomoj	I've seen him use a mac in presentations
01:04	tomoj	and emacs :)
01:10	JAS415	im use ubuntu
01:51	adityo	good morning folks
01:54	adityo	why do we use #^ before a form? reading some code, seen it in a couple of places
02:00	adityo	okie got it! works as metadata keys
04:15	tomoj_	YEEESSS http://skitch.com/tomoj/bhhw5/terminal-java-80x24
04:15	tomoj_	now to get this working with clojure :D
04:20	Fossi	weird :D
04:23	tomoj_	it's not ideal for my purposes but I think it's better than writing my own ncurses or ansi stuff
04:24	Fossi	it would be fun to port swing to that
04:26	tomoj_	some other implementations I found sortof did that
04:26	tomoj_	swing-like APIs
04:26	tomoj_	couldn't get them to work
04:27	tomoj_	I don't want swing-like anyway really
04:37	tomoj_	:D http://skitch.com/tomoj/bhhsj/terminal-java-80x24
04:39	noidi	cool :)
04:58	lowlycoder	since clojure only provides the ACI in ACID, what should I use for durability?
05:02	dosync	lowlycoder: Have you looked at clojure.contrib.sql for working with sql databases?
05:02	lowlycoder	i don't want to touch sql
05:04	Fossi	lowlycoder: schema free databases work pretty well for us. couchdb, google appengine datastore and such
05:05	lowlycoder	does couchdb actually require erlang to run?
05:05	Fossi	well, as much as apache requires C to run
05:07	tomoj_	I got it running on my mac without much trouble if I remember correctly
05:08	tomoj_	sudo port install couchdb
05:08	lowlycoder	hmm; best solution so far looks like sqljet
05:08	tomoj_	thought you didn't want to touch sql?
05:08	lowlycoder	my bad
05:08	lowlycoder	i don't want an external server
05:08	lowlycoder	horribly said
05:09	lowlycoder	somehoq mentally i group sql with mysql and postgresql and oracle
05:09	lowlycoder	but not with sqllite
05:09	lowlycoder	my fault definitely
05:09	Fossi	ah, that's another story then
05:09	lowlycoder	oh; explain
05:09	tomoj_	well looks like sqljet actually doesn't have a sql interface..
05:09	tomoj_	:)
05:11	lowlycoder	does clojure have 'builtin' serialization/deserialization?
05:12	tomoj	well.. the basic data structures are readable
05:14	tomoj	,(read (java.io.PushbackReader. (java.io.StringReader. "[1 2 3]")))
05:14	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
05:15	lowlycoder	,(java.io.StringReader. "[1 2 3]")
05:15	clojurebot	#<StringReader java.io.StringReader@111c3f0>
05:15	tomoj	but you can't serialize structmaps that way yet without some extra steps
05:27	lowlycoder	why does def write to the global environment rather than the local environment?
05:27	tomoj	if I understand what you mean, the latter is impossible in clojure
05:28	tomoj	there are no local assignable variables
05:28	lowlycoder	(defn bar [] (defn foo [] ...))
05:29	tomoj	use let or letfn
05:29	lowlycoder	why can't i have this become (defn bar[] (let [foo fn [] ...] ..))
05:29	lowlycoder	as scheme/lisp tends to interpret it as
05:29	lowlycoder	what's the motivation behind clojure's def goes to global env?
05:29	tomoj	it looks like imperative programming
05:30	lowlycoder	clojure or scheme?
05:30	tomoj	using def in the way you want
05:30	tomoj	e.g. a clojure newbie might want to write (def x (inc x))
05:30	tomoj	where they would write x=x+1 in an imperative language
05:30	lowlycoder	whereas in this way, when I execute bar, it redefiens foo on the fly
05:30	lowlycoder	and breaks all my code
05:31	tomoj	I'm not sure the code you wrote above makes sense
05:31	tomoj	defn returns a function, it doesn't execute the body
05:31	tomoj	(defn bar [] (defn foo [] ...)), even if it "wrote to the local env", wouldn't be equivalent to (defn bar [] (let [foo (fn [] ...)] ...))
05:32	lowlycoder	why ot?
05:32	lowlycoder	not
05:32	tomoj	the latter executes the body of the let form
05:32	tomoj	the former just returns a function
05:33	tomoj	defn doesn't say "define foo to be this function and then do this with it"
05:33	tomoj	it just says "define foo to be this function and return it"
05:33	tomoj	you would need (defn bar [] (defn foo [] ...) (<something that uses foo>))
05:33	tomoj	and that's evil
05:34	tomoj	defn is supposed to be toplevel, if you want to lexically bind something, use the lexical binding forms :)
05:34	lowlycoder	are there any besides let nad letfn?
05:34	lowlycoder	i just don't wnat the following code to be indented
05:35	tomoj	it should be indented imo
05:35	tomoj	it's in a new context
05:35	lowlycoder	scheme/lisp doesn't do it that way; old habits die hard
05:35	tomoj	loop and for do lexical binding, there may be others
05:36	tomoj	how does lisp do it?
05:36	lowlycoder	well, I can say things like
05:36	lowlycoder	(define (foo ...)
05:36	lowlycoder	(define (bar1 ...) .... )
05:36	lowlycoder	(define (bar 2 ...) ... )
05:36	lowlycoder	... some code involving bar1 and bar 2 ... )
05:36	lowlycoder	without bar1 bar2 becoming global forms
05:36	lowlycoder	whereas in clojure I have to do
05:37	lowlycoder	(define foo [...]
05:37	lowlycoder	(letfn [[bar1 [] ....]
05:37	lowlycoder	[bar2 [] ....]
05:37	lowlycoder	]
05:37	lowlycoder	... more code ... ))
05:37	lowlycoder	the identing just looks more uglier and mucm more to the right
05:38	_mst	common lisp is the same--you would have to use flet/labels to get the effect you're after (as in clojure)
05:38	lowlycoder	okay; scheme then :-)
05:38	tomoj	that seems evil to me
05:38	Chousuke	I suppose defn could be made context-aware.
05:38	Chousuke	but it'd be weird.
05:39	lowlycoder	why?
05:39	tomoj	I don't think it's the defn equivalent that's special in scheme, just guessing
05:39	tomoj	because apparently those defines can only come at the beginning of the body
05:40	Chousuke	hmm :/
05:40	tomoj	let would need to be made aware that defs at the beginning of its body are really lexical bindings
05:40	tomoj	well, let and defn and etc
05:40	tomoj	but I think a form that's using lexical bindings should be contained in the forms that set up those bindings
05:40	tomoj	lowlycoder: you could always write a macro
05:41	Chousuke	well, defn could just check a bound var and emit a letfn instead of def if it is bound to true, and bind it to true if it's false
05:41	lowlycoder	i can't express this as a macro
05:41	lowlycoder	tomoj: how would this macro look like? macros have to 'contain' the parts in them
05:41	lowlycoder	the define i want needs to run to the end of the currnt environment
05:41	tomoj	you would need to use the macro at the toplevel
05:41	tomoj	e.g. use silly-defn instead of defn
05:42	tomoj	which goes through and replaces defs with lexical bindings
05:42	lowlycoder	hmm; this could be interesting
05:43	lowlycoder	looks like the keyword define isn't taken up either :-)
05:43	Chousuke	clojure has a peculiar feature btw.
05:43	lowlycoder	what's that?
05:44	lowlycoder	binding to vars rather than values?
05:44	Chousuke	user=> (def def 1) -> #'user/def, user=> def -> 1, user=> (def foo 1) -> #'user/foo
05:44	lowlycoder	wt
05:44	lowlycoder	f ... isn't clojure a lisp 1?
05:45	Chousuke	yes
05:45	tomoj	I guess you would have to go through the forms in the body and macroexpand, and take-while the car is def, then convert those into a let that you wrap around the rest of the body
05:45	lowlycoder	how does this work?
05:45	Chousuke	special forms are special only in operator position
05:45	Chousuke	otherwise, they're just symbols
05:45	Chousuke	,let*
05:45	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: let* in this context
05:46	Chousuke	this is probably a half-bug, but rather harmless anyway
05:46	lowlycoder	(def def (fn [x] (println x))) (def 20)
05:46	Chousuke	lowlycoder: that will give an error :)
05:47	lowlycoder	not the definition, but the (def 20)
05:47	Chousuke	yeah
05:47	lowlycoder	i feel like clojure has great ideas
05:47	lowlycoder	but has some ugly hacks
05:47	Chousuke	can't avoid them sometimes.
05:50	Chousuke	purity is sacrificed for practicality if it's more beneficial than maintaining purity.
05:51	lowlycoder	why is this defn more practical?
05:51	Chousuke	well, it's easier for one.
05:51	Chousuke	to implement.
05:52	Chousuke	but also easier to use, because it doesn't have context-dependent effects.
05:53	Chousuke	though the scheme-style define is rather nice.
05:53	liwp	I find the current semantics confusing after scheme, but I guess that's cause I'm used to the scheme semantics
05:54	liwp	like lowlycoder I find the letfn forms noisy
05:54	lowlycoder	i actually thougth i had a race condition ....
05:55	liwp	I wrote a toy scheme once and I don't remember enclosed defines being any more difficult to implement than the top-level define...
05:55	lowlycoder	until I learned the real semantifs of defn today
05:55	Chousuke	I usually just do (let [foo (fn ...)] ...)
05:55	liwp	yeah, denf can really bite you
05:55	liwp	s/denf/defn
05:55	Chousuke	hmm, I don't have a scheme background so I can't relate to that. :/
05:55	Chousuke	I just use defn on the toplevel
05:56	Chousuke	never occurred to me to use it elsewhere.
05:56	liwp	in the end it's not a big deal after you realize what the semantics are, I was just surprised
05:56	lowlycoder	(defn foo [] 3) (defn bar [] (defn foo [] 4)) ... (bar) ... (foo) -> 4 ... WTF??? :-)
05:56	liwp	Chousuke: if you have a look at SICP they use inner defines all over the place
05:57	Chousuke	I suppose common lisp people would be equally surprised by nesting defines if they had no knowledge of scheme :)
05:57	tomoj	I was
05:57	liwp	yep :)
05:59	tomoj	it would be very weird to me for defn to mean something different when it's at the beginning of a let/defn/etc body
06:00	liwp	I just think it's a really nice way to define helper functions that are not used anywhere else
06:00	lowlycoder	liwp: so how do you handle this now? just using let and letfn?
06:00	liwp	yep
06:01	liwp	to be honest I haven't really had to deal with it much
06:01	liwp	so it's not really a problem at all, just an observation
06:03	Chousuke	I suppose the extra indentation caused by letfn is unnecessary in a way, but I don't think it's that bad otherwise :)
06:06	Chousuke	lowlycoder used vectors earlier to contain the function bodies but I use the form (letfn [(foo [x y z] ...) (bar [] ...)])
06:07	Chousuke	I like the scheme define for one other reason though, which is that the function definition looks like you're defining the value of a function call :)
06:09	Chousuke	eg. (define (f x) whatever) looks like it's defining (f x)
06:09	clojurebot	x is w
06:10	AWizzArd	xhatever?
06:18	tomoj	I like the body of letfn indented
06:19	tomoj	it shows me visually that that body is being executed within a special context
06:22	Fossi	how do i get the class for a Class? as in String.class
06:22	clojurebot	for is not used enough
06:22	Fossi	(class String) says java.lang.Class
06:22	clojurebot	☕
06:23	febeling	is there a way a know the name of the function that currently executes?
06:24	liwp	,(.getClass "foo")
06:24	clojurebot	java.lang.String
06:24	liwp	is that what you want?
06:24	Fossi	liwp: i can't create the object
06:24	liwp	,(type "foo")
06:24	clojurebot	java.lang.String
06:24	Fossi	as in, i don't have an instance
06:24	liwp	ahh
06:24	liwp	what do you have?
06:24	Fossi	a name ;D
06:24	liwp	you have to use Java's classForName magic
06:25	liwp	give me a minute
06:25	Fossi	i need to pass (DocumentListFeed.class) to an api
06:26	liwp	,(Class/forName "java.lang.String")
06:26	clojurebot	java.lang.String
06:26	liwp	that can possibly throw all kinds of evil exceptions <http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/Class.html#forName(java.lang.String, boolean, java.lang.ClassLoader)>
06:27	liwp	Fossi: does that help?
06:27	Fossi	it's evil (tm) ;)
06:28	liwp	indeed
06:28	tomoj	so there's no way to get from a literal classname to a class object?
06:28	liwp	I have no idea if Clojure gives you some nicer way to get the class
06:28	tomoj	(without instantiating)
06:29	liwp	tomoj: Class.forName gives you the class, no instance required
06:29	tomoj	,(class Math)
06:29	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
06:29	tomoj	liwp: yeah, but you have to use a string
06:29	liwp	oh yeah
06:29	liwp	missed dthat
06:29	tomoj	Fossi: I guess you already tried just passing DocumentListFeed?
06:35	liwp	,(.newInstance String)
06:35	clojurebot	""
06:36	liwp	so it seems that class names work as class literals in clojure, cool
06:36	tomoj	seems to work fine to me
06:36	liwp	this is probably obvious if I think about it a bit...
06:36	tomoj	,(.isAssignableFrom Number Integer)
06:36	clojurebot	true
06:37	tomoj	I don't like this idea that there's a separate class object which isn't the class itself
06:39	tomoj	I wonder how clojure gets the class object
06:41	liwp	what is (cast) good for?
06:42	tomoj	throwing exceptions I guess
06:42	liwp	yeah, that's what I think as well...
06:42	liwp	,(source cast)
06:42	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
06:43	liwp	urgh
06:43	achim	hmm, as far as i know, all classes are Class objects in java, there's not really a distinction. class names evaluate to Class objects in clojure
06:44	achim	,(instance? Class Number)
06:44	clojurebot	true
06:45	tomoj	right, but class names don't evaluate to class objects in java
06:45	tomoj	that's what I don't like
06:45	liwp	tomoj: you don't like that in Java?
06:45	tomoj	calling a static method should just be calling a method on the class object
06:45	tomoj	liwp: rubyist..
06:46	liwp	tomoj: ahh, got it
06:59	Chousuke	java has primitives in addition to classes too, which complicates things :/
07:00	AWizzArd	Is there something like a lazy slurp in Clojure?
07:00	AWizzArd	For reading/parsing huge files?
07:00	Chousuke	well, there's line-seq
07:01	AWizzArd	but if the line separator is not \n but instead a more complex regex?
07:01	Chousuke	hmm
07:02	Chousuke	maybe you'll need your own sequence then :/
07:02	AWizzArd	yup, oki
07:30	cschreiner	Any work done on integrating Clojure with cocoa?
07:30	cschreiner	and if not, is this interesting?
07:45	achim	cschreiner: are you thinking about a clojure port or a cocoa bridge?
07:45	cschreiner	achim: yes
07:45	cschreiner	both
07:45	cschreiner	but first, a bridge
07:47	achim	well, there's rococoa, but no clojure-specific project i know of
07:47	achim	https://rococoa.dev.java.net/
07:52	Fossi	clojures error messages are so not helping if you have an outdated api documentation
07:53	Fossi	is there an easy way to get a classes' inherited methods?
07:55	tomoj	I think show from c.c.repl-utils might do what you want
07:57	tomoj	count is constant time on vectors, right?
07:59	Fossi	ah, excellent
07:59	Fossi	i also discovered that reading helps
07:59	achim	tomoj: yes, constant time for everything "counted?"
08:00	tomoj	achim: ah, thanks
08:04	achim	rhickey: the docs of clojure.zip/down promise to return nil if there are no children, but that doesn't seem to be guaranteed, actually
08:05	achim	,(-> [1] clojure.zip/vector-zip clojure.zip/down clojure.zip/down)
08:05	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Integer
08:05	achim	rhickey: may i create issue + patch for this?
08:06	Chouser	achim: is that the same as http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/135
08:08	achim	Chouser: ah, yes, this patch will fix it
08:09	Fossi	how do you read a simple string from the repl while running a program?
08:13	Chouser	achim: is that causing you an actual problem, or is it just a discrepency with the docstring?
08:16	AWizzArd	For big files (do (def x (lazy-seq (slurp "/big.file"))) (count x)) gives me a stack overflow, while the same thing without lazy-seq doesn't. Can anyone confirm/explain that please?
08:21	AWizzArd	Instead of confirming this it would also be good to know if it works for you without stack overflows.
08:30	achim	Chouser: well, it's not something i can't work around, but yes, it would make things simpler if it just returned nil on leaves
08:37	Chouser	but that patch doesn't return nil, it throws an exception.
08:40	rhickey	this was discussed here previously
08:42	Chouser	achim: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2009-06-23.html#16:27b
08:42	Chouser	there you go. go for it.
08:44	rhickey	don't neglect: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2009-06-23.html#17:00
08:45	rhickey	rhickey: children could check if node is branch and throw if not
08:45	rhickey	kotarak: rhickey: should it throw or return nil?
08:45	rhickey	rhickey: throw
08:45	rhickey	Chouser: thanks for pulling that up so fast!
08:46	achim	Chouser: thanks!
08:46	Chouser	the throw is #135 which has a patch. achim's seeing the earlier issue, which the log seems to claim is #134, but that doesn't match.
08:49	Fossi	a
09:15	saml	==> (+ 1 2)
09:15	saml	!bot
09:16	Chouser	,(apply str (reverse "lmas"))
09:16	clojurebot	"saml"
09:17	AWizzArd	does anyone else also get an exception for counting the chars in big files that were slurped in a lazy-seq body? See my example above, from one hour ago.
09:17	saml	,(apply str (interleave ["nicely, "] ["done"]))
09:17	clojurebot	"nicely, done"
09:28	Chouser	,(class (first (lazy-seq "abc")))
09:28	clojurebot	java.lang.Character
09:28	Chouser	,(class (second (lazy-seq "abc")))
09:28	clojurebot	java.lang.Character
09:28	Chouser	,(class (next (lazy-seq "abc")))
09:28	clojurebot	clojure.lang.StringSeq
09:30	Chouser	,(class (lazy-seq "abc"))
09:30	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazySeq
09:30	Chouser	,(counted? (lazy-seq "abc"))
09:30	clojurebot	false
09:31	Chouser	AWizzArd: there's your problem. LazySeqs and StringSeqs are not counted, so require
09:32	Chouser	hm
09:33	liwp	is there a zip function in clojure that produces tuples?
09:34	liwp	or vectors I guess would be more appropriate
09:34	Chouser	,(map vector '(a b c) '(d e f))
09:34	clojurebot	([a d] [b e] [c f])
09:34	liwp	ah yes
09:34	liwp	why didn't i think of that...
09:34	Chouser	AWizzArd: counting a seq like that will at least be O(n), so you should do that. But I think it ought not overflow the stack.
09:35	AWizzArd	I am also surprised that it overflows.
09:35	Chouser	liwp: in clojure, map is _the_ way to walk more than one collection in lockstep.
09:36	liwp	AWizzArd: I thought that the problem might be holding on to the head of the seq with the def, but again that should cause an OOM error rather than overflow the stack
09:36	liwp	Chouser: fair enough
09:37	liwp	Chouser: I quite like the way how you can give map more than one seq to walk, unlike haskell and friends that only do one seq at a time
09:37	Chouser	liwp: I guess there are others, but it's certainly the one to reach for first. The other is loop/recur and things built on one or the other (zipmap, contrib indexed)
09:37	lpetit_	hello
09:38	liwp	Chouser: I'm just used to looking for zip and couldn't find it so I used map, but didn't think of using vector as the map operation
09:38	Chouser	lpetit_: g'morning.
09:40	lpetit_	brainstorming : is the general problem of coupling STM with a database transaction solved?
09:40	cemerick	Chouser: any take on this: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/a0f30c25122cd232
09:43	Chouser	,(count (lazy-seq (apply str (range 1e5))))
09:43	clojurebot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
09:44	cgrand	AWizzArd: looks like a bug StringSeq is counted but doesn't implements count() so ASeq/count() causes the stack overflow
09:45	cgrand	Chouser: same pb if you use seq instead of lazy-seq
09:45	AWizzArd	Sounds plausible.
09:45	Chouser	cemerick: I imagine zip was writen before ::foo worked.
09:46	rhickey	Chouser: right
09:47	dmix	does anyone know of any good open source clojure apps with a command-line interface?
09:47	Chouser	cgrand: yep, you nailed it. anything that implements IndexedSeq should provide a count() method.
09:48	rhickey	patch welcome
09:48	cemerick	rhickey: seems like that should get fixed?
09:48	cemerick	oh, sure :-)
09:48	cemerick	rhickey: I didn't know if you wanted to keep those slots the way they are for compatibility purposes.
09:49	rhickey	cemerick: I meant patch welcome for StringSeq, let me look at your thing...
09:50	cemerick	ah :-)
09:50	cemerick	it's not a problem really, just a slight inconsistency
09:50	rhickey	cemerick: so you just want to use ns-ed keywords in zip?
09:50	cemerick	makes sense to me shrug
09:51	cgrand	rhickey: patch ready for StringSeq, I'm checking all classes implementing Counted
09:51	cemerick	there is no 'zip' ns, after all
09:51	rhickey	that's fine by me, definitely predated ::
09:51	cemerick	OK, I'll set up a ticket and patch
09:52	AWizzArd	cgrand: very nice, thanks. Good good, another bug eliminated :)
09:53	Chouser	cgrand: probably in 1.0 as well
10:05	AWizzArd	regexperts: how can i split a string on a comma when the comma is not between the markers ( and )? Example: "1,2,3,(4,5),6" should result in ["1" "2" "3" "(4,5)" "6"].
10:06	Chouser	AWizzArd: need to handle nested parens?
10:06	AWizzArd	no
10:09	Chouser	,(re-seq #"(?:\(.+\)\|[^,]+)+" "1,2,3,(4,5),6")
10:09	clojurebot	("1" "2" "3" "(4,5)" "6")
10:09	Chouser	that won't include an empty string if you have ,, in the input
10:10	AWizzArd	uh, thanks. Funny write-only regex
10:11	Chouser	,(re-seq #"\(.+\)\|[^,]+" "1,2,3,,(4,5),6")
10:11	clojurebot	("1" "2" "3" "(4,5)" "6")
10:11	Chouser	that's the same, just shorter.
10:11	Chouser	bah, also broken.
10:11	Chouser	,(re-seq #"\(.+\)\|[^,]+" "1,(2,3),,(4,5),6")
10:11	clojurebot	("1" "(2,3),,(4,5)" "6")
10:12	Chouser	,(re-seq #"\(.*?\)\|[^,]+" "1,(2,3),,4,(5,6),7,8")
10:12	clojurebot	("1" "(2,3)" "4" "(5,6)" "7" "8")
10:12	Chouser	there
10:12	AWizzArd	danke
10:12	durka42	"\(.*?\)" match anything between two parens, but non-greedily, so you get the shortest match possible instead of the longest. "[^,]+" match a string of things that aren't commas. "\|" allow either of them.
10:14	liwp	,(re-seq #"\(.*?\)\|[^,]+" "1,(2,3),,4,(5,6)foo,7,8")
10:14	clojurebot	("1" "(2,3)" "4" "(5,6)" "foo" "7" "8")
10:14	liwp	is that desired? (see foo)
10:16	liwp	so the first pattern should probably be something like \(.?\)[^,]
10:16	liwp	,(re-seq #"\(.?\)[^,]\|[^,]+" "1,(2,3),,4,(5,6)foo,7,8")
10:16	clojurebot	("1" "(2,3)" "4" "(5,6)foo" "7" "8")
10:17	liwp	,(re-seq #"\(.?\)[^,]\|[^,]+" "1,(2,3),,4,bar(5,6)foo,7,8")
10:17	clojurebot	("1" "(2,3)" "4" "bar(5" "6)foo" "7" "8")
10:18	Chouser	,(re-seq #"(?:\(.*?\)\|[^,()]+)+" "1,(2,3),,4,bar(5,6)foo,7,8")
10:18	clojurebot	("1" "(2,3)" "4" "bar(5,6)foo" "7" "8")
10:20	liwp	Chouser: hmph, now I have to try to understand what that actually does ;-)
10:20	liwp	what's the ?: in the beginning? Something to do with Java's regexp support?
10:20	Chouser	hehe
10:21	Chouser	(?: ) is a non-capturing group
10:21	liwp	ah, ok
10:21	Chouser	perlism, if I had to guess.
10:21	liwp	why do you care in this case? or do you?
10:21	liwp	isn't everything related to regexps a perlism...
10:22	Chouser	I need to group so that I can say + at the end, that is any number of paren or non-comma-nor-paren sections, alternating 1 or more times
10:22	liwp	but do you care whether it captures or not?
10:23	liwp	I mean wouldn't (...) work just as well?
10:23	Chouser	I need to avoid capture because re-seq will emit seqs instead of strings if there are any captures.
10:23	liwp	ah, got it
10:23	Chouser	,(re-seq #"(.)." "12345")
10:23	clojurebot	(["12" "1"] ["34" "3"])
10:23	Chouser	I mean vectors. :-)
10:23	liwp	makes sense, thanks
10:24	liwp	so the regexp mathes everything that is in parens or that is not a comma or a paren
10:24	liwp	just verbalising it for myself
10:46	Chouser	(aget #^bytes buffer 0) ; will 0 be unboxed for each call? that is, would (int 0) be any better?
10:48	Chouser	my guess is that (int 0) would indeed be better.
10:50	stuartsierra	I thought all Clojure functions receive boxed argument.
10:50	Chouser	aget is inlineable
10:52	Chouser	so when called directly (not passed as an arg to something), it acts like a macro, expanding in-place to a java static method call
10:52	stuartsierra	Then I would assume the arguments to the static method call are boxed.
10:52	Chouser	in this case (clojure.lang.RT/aget #^bytes buffer 0)
10:53	Chouser	the aget method has several overloads, all of which take a primitive int as the second arg
10:54	Chouser	so that int must be unboxed before being passed to the java method. My question is whether 0 gets unboxed once at compile time, or once per call at runtime.
10:59	liwp	Chouser: IIRC people have been reporting that they get better performance with (int i) in agets
11:00	liwp	e.g. http://groups.google.co.uk/group/clojure/msg/59161c122a29233e?hl=en
11:00	danlarkin	I seem to remember a while ago there was talk of an abstract representation of a queue, with a producer & consumer, does anyone remember/know what became of that?
11:03	Chouser	liwp: ah, very good. thanks.
11:07	liwp	Chouser: there was some blog post which was a bit more informative (can't find it now), but in any case it seems that coercing indices when dealing with arrays is a good thing at the moment
12:39	liwp	ping
12:39	liwp	~ping
12:39	clojurebot	PONG!
12:49	liwp	mock objects
12:49	liwp	piffle
12:49	liwp	~mock objects
12:49	clojurebot	Your mock object is a joke; that object is mocking you. For needing it. -- rhickey
12:49	liwp	maybe expect should not be renamed mock after all ;-)
12:50	rhickey	Is that name under consideration? - ick
12:50	liwp	I think Stu renamed it already in contrib
12:51	cemerick	har har
12:51	cemerick	rhickey: when did you throw off that gem?
12:52	rhickey	cemerick: I don't recall - at a talk a while ago
12:52	cemerick	I've never gotten into the deep waters of testing. Seems like a lot of work.
13:54	maacl_	Does anyone have example code that uses clojure-couchdb ?
14:15	wtetzner_	if i want to use clojure code the way you would use json, can i just use the (print ...) function, or do i need to use some special printer to ensure i can read it back in?
14:16	Chousuke	I think you need to use pr
14:16	Chousuke	(doc pr)
14:16	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x & more]); Prints the object(s) to the output stream that is the current value of out. Prints the object(s), separated by spaces if there is more than one. By default, pr and prn print in a way that objects can be read by the reader"
14:17	wtetzner_	ok
14:17	wtetzner_	thanks
14:17	wtetzner_	(doc prn)
14:17	clojurebot	"([& more]); Same as pr followed by (newline). Observes flush-on-newline"
14:27	wtetzner_	(doc pr-str)
14:27	clojurebot	"([& xs]); pr to a string, returning it"
14:30	wtetzner_	being able to print and read clojure data structures is really nice
14:30	rathore_	do you guys think its OK to send a clojure job posting on the google-mailing-list?
14:30	wtetzner_	it's perfect for use as a data format in a client-server application
14:32	rathore_	wtetzner_: i use exactly that in swarmiji - to send job information back and forth between requesters & workers
14:32	rathore_	,(doc pr-str)
14:32	clojurebot	"([& xs]); pr to a string, returning it"
14:41	Chouser	rathore_: there has been one or two before. I would guess it's ok.
14:44	rhickey	rathore: yes, fine by me
14:46	cemerick	heh, I didn't notice the prior job postings. Good to see :-)
14:52	rathore_	rhickey: thanks
14:56	rhickey	rathore_: sure, glad to see it!
15:27	cemerick	are there any recommended idioms for implicit bindings established by macros?
15:28	Chousuke	other than "don't" and "document"? :P
15:28	cemerick	heh
15:28	cemerick	Chousuke: I just knew that was going to be the response. :-D
15:30	Chousuke	I'm not aware of any idioms
15:30	Chouser	do you mean dynamic bindings, like the with-* macros?
15:32	cemerick	no, implicit bindings, like 'this' in proxy method impls.
16:13	jensli	I had a job writing C# for a big, evil corporation. Now that has ended and I have placed an order for "Programming Clojure", Im going to spend my time hanging in cafes with my laptop, learning to lisp functionlly.
16:15	arbscht	good luck. perhaps you can contribute to the clojure-clr project, too :)
16:19	jensli	Im going to keep far away from clr.
16:25	Chouser	ha! delaying the middle of each finger tree also removes the threat of stack overflow.
16:33	wavister	... so if you want to give someone the middle finger, it might take a while?
18:13	hiredman	http://www.thelastcitadel.com/images/clojurebot.png
18:15	wavister	not sure why i'm looking at your inbox...
18:15	danlarkin	it's a _wave_
18:15	durka42	lower right corner
18:16	danlarkin	maybe?
18:16	danlarkin	no
18:16	danlarkin	nevermind
18:16	wavister	... xmpp transport from wave to the irc clojurebot?
18:16	danlarkin	I redact my wave comment
18:20	hiredman	no
18:20	hiredman	just clojurebot via xmpp
18:22	wavister	spiffin!
18:25	wavister	why is this so:
18:25	wavister	,(= (long 1) 1)
18:25	clojurebot	true
18:25	wavister	,(clojure.set/union #{(long 1)} #{1})
18:25	clojurebot	#{1 1}
18:26	rhickey	,(.equals (long 1) 1)
18:26	clojurebot	false
18:26	wavister	ack. is there a way to do sets using = instead of .equals?
18:26	rhickey	in order for Clojure sets to be java.util.Sets, they need to use .equals
18:26	wavister	oh
18:59	tomoj	huh?
18:59	tomoj	I don't get it
18:59	tomoj	,(= #{1 2 3} #{3 2 1})
18:59	clojurebot	true
18:59	tomoj	oh, you mean the elements I guess
19:16	wtetzner_	so is java.util.Set an interface?
19:17	hiredman	~jdoc java.util.Set
19:22	wavister	hiredman: can I add clojurebot to my friends list?
19:23	hiredman	clojurebot@thelastcitadel.com
19:23	wavister	spiff
20:23	Chouser	why people think it would be better to allow similar out-of-order definitions in .clj files is beyond me.
20:29	krumholt__	i would like that :)
20:31	krumholt__	i program a function than i think of some helper function i might need and then i have to write that function above the the one i am writing. i like to order my code so that i see the main functions first and can read up on the helper function when i need to
20:33	wavister	i've thought about that... you'd have to have a future pointing to a perhaps never defined function in the ns, and in parallel def your functions later to fulfill that future
20:35	krumholt__	wavister, load-file could just order the functions before evaluating them?
20:35	cemerick	Chouser: is the haskell just masochism or something justifiable? ;-)
20:35	Chouser	it's solvable technically, but you'll end up with big ol' jumble
20:35	wavister	what if there was a with-futures function similar to the with-local-vars, which just took a list of symbols to define within the clojure
20:35	clojurebot	function is <Chouser> there is one class per fn, one instance of it per closure
20:36	Chouser	wavister: 'declare'?
20:36	wavister	in with-futures, each line would be evaluated in parallel rather than sequentially
20:36	Chouser	cemerick: trying to understand the finger-tree paper.
20:37	cemerick	ah
20:37	cemerick	I can read ML and its kin, but haskell is just unintelligible to me.
20:37	wavister	Chouser: i haven't messed with declare. maybe...
20:43	cemerick	whoa, I just typed 'disclosure' as 'disclojure'
20:45	wavister	muahaha
23:37	technomancy`	I've got a macro that generates a proxy form, but it's complaining "Caused by: java.lang.Exception: No such var: sketchbook.applet/this" when I try to bind this
23:37	technomancy`	http://p.hagelb.org/applet.clj.html
23:38	technomancy`	what's the trick to writing a macro that can do that?
23:43	technomancy`	hmm... (declare this) fixes it... but now I get an error running the macro even though running the macroexpansion works fine. I didn't think that was possible.
23:44	technomancy`	"Can't refer to qualified var that doesn't exist" when I try to run the macro. =\
23:45	cark	did you try ~'this ?
23:45	cark	in the macro definition
23:46	technomancy`	cark: that solves the first problem; thanks
23:46	technomancy`	I think the second problem is due to the fact that my macro first defs a var and then tries to refer to the var in a defn inside the same macro
23:47	technomancy`	on second thought I don't really need the second defn to be inside the macro.
23:47	cark	i'm not sure you're right
23:48	cark	mhh
23:50	cark	the macro produces the code, then the defs are avaluated in order
23:51	cark	so that's exactly the same as having the macroexpansion in your source file
23:52	technomancy`	that's what I thought except... well... it's not the same.
23:52	cark	did you try evaluating the macro-expansion ?
23:53	technomancy`	cark: that's what I mean, the macro-expansion works
23:54	cark	mhh i would call this a bug then ... though that seems hardly possible on such common stuff
23:56	technomancy`	actually my alternate approach breaks since proxies can't have metadata. boo.
23:56	hiredman	uh
23:56	hiredman	if they proxy IMeta
23:56	hiredman	…
23:57	technomancy`	hiredman: oh, doh.
23:57	technomancy`	good call
23:57	cark	~paste?
23:57	clojurebot	lisppaste8, url
23:57	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
23:58	lisppaste8	cark pasted "well that works" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86170