#clojure – 2009-08-24

2009-08-24

02:09	hiredman	~ping
02:09	clojurebot	PONG!
03:02	alinp	hi
04:23	liwp	~ping
04:23	clojurebot	PONG!
04:28	Neronus	And clojurebot wins the game
05:30	raphinou	HI
05:31	raphinou	I'm still debugging this code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/85858
05:32	raphinou	how can I know the type of the arguments passed to an object's method? (it is addListener in the pasted code)
05:36	Licenser_	morning everyone
05:36	raphinou	HI Licenser_
05:38	Licenser_	hi raphinou I would love to help but I'm newer to clojure then you I geuss ;)
05:38	raphinou	:-)
05:39	raphinou	no problem Licenser_ , I'm searching further
05:40	Licenser_	some somart person here told me using (.. is uglish it's better to use (.<function> but I don't know if that is of any relevance for you
05:41	raphinou	no Licenser_, the code is running actually, but it's the type of arguments passed that seem to cause problem
05:41	woodz	raphinou: the type function does this for you: (type "foo") --> java.lang.String
05:41	raphinou	I also had the advice to use (-> ) rather than (.. )
05:42	raphinou	woodz: the problem is that it is not a clojure function I try to debug, but a method on a java object
05:42	raphinou	I'm looking at jswat, but as I'm new to the java platform I'm progressing slowly to put all pieces together
05:42	_crc	raphinou: A possibly useless suggestion: Can you try type hinting, the second argument to the addListener. I see that EventSignal has two addListener methods with same arity but varying types.
05:43	raphinou	_crc: yes, good suggestion. I'll try that!
05:43	woodz	Ah, right. You could use Java's reflection API to get a Method object, and call getParameterTypes on that.
05:44	_crc	I don't know how the clojure compiler resolves overloaded method calls. I guess people that know are asleep right now :)
05:45	raphinou	:-)
05:45	raphinou	I'm not sure how I add a type hint on the proxy object. Alls type hint I find are in the definition of a function.
05:47	raphinou	hmm, just found (cast )
05:50	Licenser_	I really would love how they handle closures in clojure
05:50	Licenser_	insert a 'to know' in there :P
05:56	tomoj	Licenser_: what do you mean exactly?
05:57	tomoj	,((let [a 2 b 3] (fn [] [a b])))
05:57	clojurebot	[2 3]
05:58	Licenser_	tomoj: I mean compiler wise
05:58	tomoj	oh, I see. I dunno about the internals
05:58	Licenser_	because I've trouble with that :P it's a really tricky thing for a compiler/interpreter
06:00	raphinou	_crc: shouldn't I be able to cast the proxy object to the expected class ?
06:05	_crc	raphinou: Type hinting didn't solve the issue?
06:06	raphinou	_crc: can I do type hinting on a method that is defined in the java class?
06:06	tomoj	Licenser_: a naive stack of bindings isn't sufficient?
06:06	raphinou	all type hinting I've found are in the definition of clojure functions
06:06	Licenser_	tomoj: I write on a VM/Interpreter/Compiler set since a while and closures are the thing that is most complicated for me / causes the most problems
06:07	_crc	well, what i mean is something like this (.. line-edit enterPressed (addListener wapp #^Signal$Listener (proxy [Signal$Listener]....
06:07	_crc	I am not even sure that works. But worth a try :)
06:08	raphinou	_crc: I'll try. What I tried without success is (.. line-edit enterPressed (addListener wapp (cast Signal$Listener (proxy [Signal$Listener]..
06:10	raphinou	seems equivalent to the (cast )
06:11	raphinou	exact same error
06:13	Chousuke	cast is pretty much a no-op in clojure
06:14	Chousuke	it just checks whether the object is treatable as whatever you're casting to.
06:15	_crc	raphinou: Hmm.. are you sure the first argument type is what it expects. I mean, the wapp object.
06:16	Chousuke	hmm
06:17	Chousuke	you're using .. there so it's (.addListener (.enterPressed line-edit) wapp ...)
06:17	raphinou	yes, the wapp is fine as I instanciate it as a WApplication, and it's inheriting from WObject
06:18	_crc	Chousuke: The .. operator doesn't need the (.method..)
06:18	raphinou	Chousuke: lemme check
06:19	Chousuke	_crc: I know, I just meant that's what it expands to
06:19	Chousuke	and it looks dubious
06:19	Chousuke	does (.enterPressed line-edit) really have an .addListener method?
06:20	Chousuke	.enterPressed looks like it returns a boolean but I guess it could be returning an event :/
06:20	raphinou	yes
06:20	_crc	The error apparently is "No matching method found: addListener for class eu.webtoolkit.jwt.EventSignal"
06:20	raphinou	enterpressed returns an SignalEven which such a method
06:21	Chousuke	Clojure REALLY should print the parameter types with that exception ;(
06:22	_crc	Chousuke: I agree.
06:22	_crc	raphinou: Are you working on trunk?
06:22	raphinou	I did a checkout last week and compiled it
06:23	raphinou	I didn't look further which version resulted in compiled form
06:46	Licenser_	The expetions really give very very little helpfull information
06:46	Licenser_	It does not even tell you where they occur :/
06:51	tomoj	in slime you get a backtrace
06:52	tomoj	and you can get a backtrace other ways too but I don't know how
06:54	Licenser_	slime is that emacs thingy?
06:57	tomoj	yeah
07:27	ole3	test
08:02	alinp	hi
08:02	alinp	is there a foldr in clojure ?
08:02	alinp	reduce has foldl functionality, at least this is what I noticed
08:03	Neronus	alinp: I don't think so, as sequences are possibly infinite
08:04	alinp	ok, in this case it seems ok
08:04	Chouser	I don't think there's a foldr, though you could use 'reverse;
08:04	alinp	thanks
08:04	alinp	that should do the trick :)
08:04	Chouser	or if you're working on a vector, maybe rseq
08:06	alinp	rseq is not returning a lazy seq
08:06	alinp	right ?
08:06	alinp	at least this is what the doc says
08:06	Chouser	it probably is, but it's over a non-lazy thing like a vector or map
08:06	alinp	,(doc rseq)
08:06	clojurebot	"([rev]); Returns, in constant time, a seq of the items in rev (which can be a vector or sorted-map), in reverse order. If rev is empty returns nil"
08:06	alinp	yeah, indeed
08:07	alinp	my q had no point, sorry :)
08:08	Chouser	so it's a seq but, right, calling it lazy doesn't mean much even if its true.
08:09	rhickey	Chouser: which patch files do I need to apply to test chunked for/concat? could you paste the timing code you were running?
08:10	Chouser	chunked-concat.diff and chunked-for.diff
08:13	Chouser	To test the timing I kept the old definition of 'for' as 'for1'
08:18	rhickey	Chouser: what code had a 2x variance?
08:20	Chouser	that's on the other computer. gimme a minute...
08:22	rhickey	Chouser: don't worry about it - I've got it running now here
08:22	rhickey	the 2x diff has to do with whether or not you get a gc during the run I think
08:23	Chouser	ok. the variance was not between the two versions, it was the same version on subsequent runs.
08:23	Chouser	yeah, ok
08:23	tomoj	is chunking what causes this?:
08:23	tomoj	,(dorun (take 4 (map println (range 10))))
08:23	clojurebot	0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
08:24	tomoj	seems to go over in increments of 32
08:25	rhickey	tomoj: ?
08:25	tomoj	(e.g. if you do that taking 4 and (range 100), it prints 0-31, while if you take 33, it prints 0-63
08:27	rhickey	tomoj: yes
08:27	Chouser	(time (into [] (for1 [a (range 1e6) :when (odd? a)] a)))
08:28	Chouser	I was doing "into []" in an attempt to get a chunked consumer (unlike doall or last)
08:29	rhickey	reduce is a chunked consumer too
08:29	Chouser	ah, of course.
08:30	tomoj	so due to chunking is it generally bad to have lazy seqs which cause side-effets on consumption?
08:30	Chouser	yeah, that's more stable.
08:31	Chouser	tomoj: if your lazy seq isn't chunked, nothing should have changed.
08:32	tomoj	ah, but range for example generates a chunked seq, then?
08:32	Chouser	tomoj: the "problem" with your example is having a side effect in 'map', which has never been recommended.
08:32	rhickey	tomoj: there will be a seq1 (name TBD) which will force non-chunked seqing of a possibly-chunked seq
08:32	tomoj	that's what I told the person asking about this the other day, I recommended doseq instead
08:32	tomoj	but then I saw it in ants.clj
08:33	Chouser	tomoj: exactly. doseq also does chunking now, but if you guard a loop with :while then your body will not be called when it shouldn't.
08:33	rhickey	tomoj: you saw the chunked side effect problem or just map of side-effecting fn?
08:33	tomoj	just a map of side-effecting fn
08:34	tomoj	no chunking problem I believe
08:34	tomoj	nah, cus the send-off needs to go to all ants anyway
08:38	Chousuke	hmm, why doesn't the clojure dev group have the lambda picture as its logo? :(
08:52	lisppaste8	raphinou_ annotated #85858 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85858#1
08:52	raphinou	it seems the wrong addListener method is called (same arity, different signature)
08:53	raphinou	any idea how I can tell that I want the other one to be run?
09:01	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "'for' timings" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85959
09:02	Chouser	so I guess the new 'range' cost a bit, but allows for better optimizations down the chain.
09:08	Chousuke	gah.
09:09	Chousuke	I was wondering why paredit behaved weirdly. then I noticed it was using an old version I had accidentally installed with elpa :P
09:09	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
09:35	Chousuke	hm, neat.
09:36	Chousuke	the next milestone for my reader was to read core.clj without exceptions. Turns out it already can :P
09:37	Chousuke	I doubt evaling things is going to go so well, though :/
09:40	LauJensen	Oh my. Did the previous discussion on chunks mean that when I call (take n coll) I cant count on getting n items back ?
09:40	Chouser	LauJensen: nope, nothing of the sort
09:41	LauJensen	phew - Got a little scared there for a bit
09:54	Chouser	could range provide a sort of lazy chunk?
09:55	Chouser	override .nth to do the math on demand rather than allocate an array?
09:56	Chousuke	hm
09:56	weissj	what's the easiest way to iterate thru a list of function symbols, and call each one with the same arg?
09:57	weissj	,(for [myfn '(inc dec)] (println (myfn 1)))
09:57	clojurebot	(nil nil)
09:57	weissj	,(for [myfn '(inc dec)] (myfn 1))
09:57	clojurebot	(nil nil)
09:57	Chousuke	I got as far as evaling the first 109 top-level forms of clojure.core
09:57	rhickey	Chouser: chunk consumers need the chunk size in order to allocate their own chunks
09:57	Chouser	,(map #((resolve %) 5) '(inc dec))
09:57	clojurebot	(6 4)
09:57	Chousuke	it breaks on / :)
09:57	Chouser	Chousuke: not bad!
09:57	Chousuke	which is not surprising at all, considering my symbol parsing is rather primitive still.
09:57	Chouser	rhickey: sure, it would still be Chunks of size 32, but instead of ArrayChunks they'd be RangeChunks
09:59	Chousuke	now my problem is that the error message is not very helpful :/
09:59	rhickey	Chouser: ah, so not really about laziness, just 'virtual', sure
09:59	Chouser	right, just for performance
10:00	rhickey	I thought you wanted to solve tomoj's chunked laziness granularity problem
10:00	Chouser	ah, no. that's not a problem. :-)
10:00	Chousuke	it simply says "Can't refer to qualified var that doesn't exist"
10:00	fdaoud	hi all
10:00	rhickey	actually, it is a problem, and a tricky one, not for side effects but for expensive calculations
10:00	Chousuke	and while I suspect / is the problem, I'm not sure what's wrong with it
10:01	fdaoud	hey, there is the Clojure elite here!
10:02	Chouser	fdaoud: welcome
10:03	fdaoud	thanks Chouser....congrats rhickey and all for Clojure. I'm reading Stu's book. Very cool stuff.
10:04	fdaoud	I've been interested in functional programming for years, but Clojure is the first time I see it all come together
10:06	Chouser	I just wanted macros and libraries, but rhickey foisted all this immutable stuff on me.
10:06	rhickey	:)
10:07	fdaoud	Now if I can integrate Clojure with Stripes, I'll be all set :)
10:16	Chousuke	hmm
10:17	Chousuke	,(map namespace ['foo (symbol "foo")]); curious behaviour
10:17	clojurebot	(nil nil)
10:17	Chousuke	huh. I get "" for the second case
10:17	Chousuke	hmm...
10:18	Chousuke	no wait, got confused
10:19	Chousuke	,(map namespace ['/ (symbol "/")]); this is when it happens for me :/
10:19	clojurebot	(nil "")
10:21	Chousuke	~def symbol
10:22	Chouser	,(range 1/2 5 1)
10:22	clojurebot	(1/2 3/2 5/2 7/2 9/2)
10:22	Chouser	,(range 1/2 5)
10:22	clojurebot	(1/2 3/2 5/2 7/2 9/2)
10:22	Chousuke	looks like a bug in Symbol/intern
10:22	Chouser	hm. In clojure 1.0 the latter gives (0 1 2 3 4)
10:23	Chousuke	if the name contains a /, it does "return new Symbol(nsname.substring(0, i).intern(), nsname.substring(i + 1).intern()"
10:24	Chousuke	which means the namespace will become "" instead of nil
10:45	raphinou	I'm lost here: I have a java object with the method addListener. Arity of addListener is 2, and it has 2 definitions differing by the type of its arguments. It seems the wrong one is called and I get an IllegalArgumentException....
10:46	raphinou	is there a way to specify the method to be used?
10:46	raphinou	the second argument is a proxy object, which can not be casted to the type expected by the method
10:50	Chouser	raphinou: I looked at your paste briefly, but didn't see what could be causing your problem.
10:51	Chouser	proxy self-hints with the class you're extending, Signal$Listener
10:51	raphinou	Chouser: I think the code is fine, but the way the java method to run is chosen is picking the wrong one. Ha, ok for the self-hint. I didn't know that
10:52	Chouser	from your stack frame it lokos like it's found the right class for wapp, jwt.EventSignal
10:53	Chouser	oh, wait -- where's your WObject?
10:53	raphinou	it's the wapp
10:53	Chouser	oh, right ..
10:54	Chouser	raphinou: I'm shooting in the dark here, but you might try turning on reflection warnings first, and make sure you're getting the call resolved at compile time.
10:54	Chouser	that sometimes helps bring out the real issue.
10:55	raphinou	hmm, I read something about reflection warnings this morning. Will try to find it back. Thx for the hint, I'll try that
10:55	Chouser	(set! warn-on-reflection true)
10:55	raphinou	ha, thx :-)
10:56	Chouser	insert that before the top level form that contains your erroring call
10:56	Chouser	the re-load or re-eval or re-compile or whatever you're doing
10:56	Chouser	then
10:56	raphinou	call to addListener can't be resolved!
10:56	raphinou	you're righ Chouser
10:56	Chouser	ok, not exactly shocking, but not an error in itself
10:57	Chouser	I guess try hinting the wobj?
10:57	raphinou	ok, I'll try that
10:57	Chouser	er, wapp
10:58	Chouser	is that the only reflection warning, or are there others, like for enterPressed?
10:58	Chousuke	~def mexpand-all
10:59	raphinou	Chouser: only warning, and type hint or cast do not resolve it
11:00	Chousuke	hmmhm
11:00	Chouser	doesn't resolve the warning or the runtime error?
11:01	raphinou	both
11:02	cark	raphinou : you're still stuck at the same point ?
11:02	raphinou	yes cark
11:02	cark	=(
11:03	Chouser	ok, so try (addListener #^WObject wapp #^Signal$Listener (proxy ...))
11:04	Chouser	the latter hint shouldn't be necessary, so I don't actually expect that to fix it.
11:04	Chouser	if it doesn't, it might be time to unpack that .. so we can see what's going on.
11:05	Chouser	(let [sig (.enterPressed line-edit)] (.addListener #^EventSignal sig #^WObject wapp (proxy ...))
11:06	Chouser	that let form really should not produce any reflection warnings.
11:06	raphinou	ok
11:07	Chouser	rhickey: why does IChunk have a reduce? Does it really perform that much better than having the reduce fn do a general loop on each chunk?
11:11	raphinou	same problem with type hints. chouser, you want me to put the let in the code of the app, that's it?
11:12	Chouser	yeah, using that 'let' instead of your .. form ought to remove any reflection warning from that line.
11:12	Chouser	you're saying it still generates a reflection warning?
11:12	Chouser	for addListener?
11:12	rhickey	Chouser: I don't recall, but I presume so, else I thought many would be writing that same loop over and over, or tempted to call reduce itself in their chunk fns
11:13	raphinou	both warning and exception are still there Chouser
11:13	Chouser	yeah. writing my first IChunk implementation here and I've got a bug in my reduce. :-P
11:14	Chouser	raphinou: bleh. try the hint on 'proxy' too then? If it still fails I'd start to doubt the javadocs
11:17	lisppaste8	raphinou_ annotated #85858 "let to remove reflection warning" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85858#2
11:17	raphinou	I posted the let as I still get the warning :(
11:18	raphinou	I hope I'm not doing something stupid and wasting your time....
11:20	Chouser	do you have clojure-contrib handy? repl-utils?
11:21	Chouser	(show EventSignal "addListener")
11:21	raphinou	clujure-contrib yes
11:22	raphinou	repl-utils I don't know
11:22	Chouser	just try that 'show' at the repl and see if it lists the addListener method you're trying to call
11:22	Chouser	(use 'clojure.contrib.repl-utils)
11:22	raphinou	hem, ok, just found out..
11:24	lisppaste8	raphinou_ annotated #85858 "show EventSignal addListener" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85858#3
11:24	Chouser	...and there's the problem
11:24	Chouser	oh
11:24	Chouser	wait
11:24	Chouser	bah
11:24	Chouser	(show EventSignal 0)
11:26	cark	mhh i should be using repl-utils more
11:26	lisppaste8	raphinou_ annotated #85858 "show EventSignal 0" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85858#4
11:28	krumholt	can someone help me understand what happens when i do ('+ 1 2) why does a symbol take arguments?
11:28	Chouser	ok, I'm completely stumped. I don't see how that method can exist and yet your call to it fails to resolve.
11:29	raphinou	:(
11:29	Chouser	krumholt: symbols look themselves up in a map when called.
11:29	Chouser	,('+ {'foo 1, 'bar 2, '+ 3})
11:29	clojurebot	3
11:30	Chouser	just like keywords do. A second arg is allowed for when the key is not found.
11:30	Chouser	,('+ {'foo 1, 'bar 2, '+ 3} :default-something)
11:30	clojurebot	3
11:30	Chouser	,('+ {'foo 1, 'bar 2} :default-something)
11:30	clojurebot	:default-something
11:32	cgrand	raphinou: try putting the proxy in a local and still fully hint the addListener call
11:33	raphinou	ok, trying
11:33	krumholt	Chouser, so the first argument to a symbol is a map to lookup its value and the second is the default value?
11:33	Chouser	krumholt: right. if the first arg is not a map, it returns the second arg or nil
11:33	Chouser	,('+ 5)
11:33	clojurebot	nil
11:35	krumholt	Chouser, ok thanks. i just stumbled upon this and wanted to understand it.
11:35	Chouser	krumholt: keywords act the same, and that pattern is rather more common
11:35	raphinou	cgrand: I get a class cast exception:
11:35	raphinou	clojure.proxy.java.lang.Object$Listener cannot be cast to eu.webtoolkit.jwt.Signal$Listener
11:36	cgrand	paste?
11:36	raphinou	coming
11:37	lisppaste8	raphinou_ annotated #85858 "class cast exception" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85858#5
11:38	raphinou	but warning has disappeared
11:39	cgrand	my guess that the warning was caused by macroexpansion eating the type hint on proxy
11:39	clojurebot	proxy is <Chouser> proxy teases with its ease of use, then suddenly betrays.
11:40	Chouser	but the ClassCastException doesn't make any sense, does it?
11:40	cark	looks like a bug to me
11:41	cgrand	no :-(
11:42	raphinou	would anyone be interested in a tarball with my code and all jars it depends on? It's about 8Mb. I can easily put it online
11:43	Chouser	raphinou: yeah
11:43	raphinou	ok, it's coming!
11:43	cark	maybe proxy doesn't know how to handle nested interfaces ?
11:44	Chouser	this is how the Greeks defeated Troy.
11:47	Chouser	cark: I was wondering the same thing, but I guess it's not that simple. This looks ok: (supers (class (proxy [Object javax.swing.text.AttributeSet$ColorAttribute] [])))
11:48	Chousuke	hmm
11:48	Chousuke	It looks like my reader can read clojure.core, but there are other problems with it
11:48	Chousuke	redefining clojure.core on the fly causes slime to barf, for example :P
11:49	Chousuke	after it gets to the point where it redefines print-method, something happens and boom
11:51	raphinou	okn the tarball is at http://www.raphinou.com/rb.tar.bz2
11:51	raphinou	I put a README in it to say how I run it
11:55	Chouser	should I get that ClassCastException?
11:58	raphinou	yes Chouser
12:00	lisppaste8	Chouser annotated #85858 "no error for me?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85858#6
12:01	raphinou	I get the error when requesting page at http://localhost:8080
12:02	raphinou	it prints my user agent, and the I have the exception printed
12:02	Chouser	ah, ok, I got it.
12:12	cgrand	could it be a classloader mess? two Signal$Listener classes loaded by two classloaders? (shooting in the dark)
12:13	raphinou	this is beyond my java knowledge, I have no idea
12:13	clojurebot	this is not a bug
12:22	rhickey	clojure.proxy.java.lang.Object$Listener looks funky
12:23	cgrand	raphinou: wow, your listener effectively implements Signal1$Listener and not Signal1$Listener: I think proxy caching got confused
12:23	cgrand	"and not Signal$Listener"
12:23	raphinou	ok
12:23	Chousuke	hmmh
12:24	Chouser	Signal$Listener inherits only from SignalImpl$Listener
12:24	Chousuke	apparently it's not possible to redef clojure.core in its entirety by reading and evaling the file. :/
12:24	Chouser	but the generated proxy class inherits from #{eu.webtoolkit.jwt.SignalImpl$Listener eu.webtoolkit.jwt.Signal1$Listener clojure.lang.IProxy java.lang.Object}
12:24	Chousuke	the repl barfs when you redef print-method
12:25	rhickey	Chousuke: yes, could you please submit an issue for that?
12:26	rhickey	Chouser: you can go ahead with chunked concat/for
12:27	Chousuke	okay. I'm using my own reader here though
12:27	Chouser	where do SignalImpl$Listener and Signal1$Listener come from?
12:27	Chousuke	but I suppose the problem is with eval
12:27	Chouser	rhickey: ok, thanks.
12:27	rhickey	Chousuke: try clojure's same prob
12:27	cgrand	Here is the culprit:
12:27	cgrand	be.nsa.server=> (proxy-name Object [Signal$Listener])
12:27	cgrand	"clojure.proxy.java.lang.Object$Listener"
12:27	cgrand	be.nsa.server=> (proxy-name Object [Signal1$Listener])
12:27	cgrand	"clojure.proxy.java.lang.Object$Listener"
12:27	Chouser	cgrand: ah, nice.
12:28	cgrand	so the second call to proxy retieves a cached class
12:28	raphinou	wow, good catch
12:29	Chouser	is there a limit on class name length? seems like proxy-name should include (and/or hash) the full package name of all implemented interfaces too
12:30	Chouser	does newnew use something similar?
12:30	raphinou	ok, so the problem happens if multiple nested interfaces have the same name?
12:30	cgrand	and should escape $ too
12:31	rhickey	cgrand: $ is an ok name component
12:33	raphinou	if I only define the second listener, and only import Signal$Listener, I still have the same problem
12:33	cgrand	I meant: if we are going to include full names, we should escape the $ characters in the full names to prevent collisions on pathological worst cases
12:34	rhickey	I think we should just use lastIndexOf '.' instead of getSimpleName
12:35	Neronus	Chouser: Class name lenghts have to fit into CONSTANT_Utf8_info in the constant pool. And the maximum length of such an entry is 2^16
12:35	Neronus	Class names have to fit into that entry, not their lengths
12:36	cgrand	if one uses two frameworks which each defines a Listener interface, proxy would still confuse them since it wouldn't include the package
12:36	rhickey	this is another why '.' as nested class separator is weak, and why the $ is used for the real JVM name
12:37	rhickey	cgrand: true, but I'd rather append the hash of full names than have a giant name
12:38	cgrand	rhickey: ok
12:50	weissj	does clojure have a facebook page? (like scala's here http://www.facebook.com/pages/Scala/62722535767?ref=mf )
12:51	weissj	would be nice if i could make myself a 'fan of' clojure for my programmer friends to see
12:52	drewr	there's a "Finding Clojure" group
12:52	drewr	and now there's apparently a "Clojure" group
12:52	weissj	drewr: yeah i saw that. but groups don't work the same as company/famousperson pages
12:55	Chousuke	rhickey: I created a ticket for the repl issue. I also created one for (namespace (symbol "/")) returning "" instead of nil (with patch)
13:07	cgrand	raphinou: in the mean time, you could work around by specifying a second useless interface (just to generate another name)
13:17	raphinou	cgrand: in java you mean?
13:17	raphinou	is there a ticket for this issue btw, so I can follow it and try again.
13:19	cgrand	raphinou: eg replace (proxy [Signal$Listener] by (proxy [Signal$Listener Comparable] it should work
13:19	raphinou	ho, I see
13:20	raphinou	but how comes the same problem arises when I import and define only the Signal$Listener ?
13:21	raphinou	it works by specifying a second interface. thx!
13:21	raphinou	and thx everyone who looked at this problem!
13:22	raphinou	hmm, it worked when adding the second interface when I had the first listener commented....
13:23	cgrand	which first listener? (proxy [Signal1$Listener] ?
13:24	raphinou	(.. (WPushButton. "Greet me" root) clicked (addListener....
13:25	raphinou	hmm, wait, checking I'm working on the right version....
13:30	raphinou	ok, it's working fine now...
13:30	raphinou	right on time, I need to go. bye!
13:31	cgrand	rhickey: should I open a ticket for the proxy-name bug?
13:33	rhickey	cgrand: sure
13:33	rhickey	thanks
13:43	devinus	i keep hearing people say that clojure has no objects
13:43	devinus	but other people saying that's BS
13:43	devinus	which one is it?
13:43	devinus	i'm assuming "objects" are just represented entirely different than in your standard OO language
13:43	Neronus	,(Object.)
13:43	clojurebot	#<Object java.lang.Object@e62f6>
13:44	Neronus	there you go :)
13:44	LauJensen	devinus: Read "Object Orientation is overrated" http://clojure.org/rationale
13:45	Neronus	While there are objects (everything is a java object, except the primitives), there is no need to think of objects except when doing java interop
13:46	fdaoud	Hi all. Does anyone know how to have a context path in compojure? I can't seem to find the info. The examples I find all have the app deployed under the root path.
13:47	Chousuke	gah.
13:47	Chousuke	Assembla sent me some mail and apparently it triggers a bug in Mail...
14:00	arbscht	fdaoud: you can associate servlets to non-root request paths in run-server, if I understand you correctly. also, git HEAD has `with-context', which trims context prefixes from the request
14:00	arbscht	fdaoud: pop into #compojure to discuss it further if you want :)
14:00	fdaoud	arbscht: thanks for the info! I didn't realize compojure had its own channel :)
14:18	rhickey	cgrand: your master still contains Arrays.copyOf calls
14:29	jensli	Hi all!
14:29	jensli	Can anyone recomand a book? Programming Clojure or The Definitive Guide to Clojure?
14:29	jensli	Maybe the latter isnt out yet...
14:30	cgrand1	it should be in print at the end of year
14:31	Chouser	right now the definitive guide is Programming Clojure. :-)
14:32	LauJensen	Who's writing 'the definitive guide' ?
14:33	Chouser	LauJensen: http://www.www.friendsofed.com/book/view/9781430272311
14:34	LauJensen	Luke Vanderhart, never heard of him
14:34	Chouser	he's posted to the group a couple times
14:35	LauJensen	What makes this book 'definity' and programming clojure, not ?
14:35	LauJensen	(since he's saying its the first)
14:35	hiredman	still haven't finished programming clojure
14:35	hiredman	LauJensen: it's bigger?
14:35	LauJensen	oh thats right, he's american :)
14:36	jensli	More pages but less weight!
14:36	jensli	In Defeniteve guide
14:36	Chouser	I guess "a few" is understating it a bit. google say 45 posts.
14:37	Chouser	He apparently works with the DC study group
14:37	LauJensen	I feel a soap coming on "Chouser Chen - Internet stalker"
14:38	jensli	This language running amok? Soon someone unheard of is going to release 2.0.
14:41	LauJensen	jensli: Why do you think so ?
14:41	hiredman	what?
14:41	hiredman	~what?
14:41	clojurebot	do you ? what is the benefit of lazy sequences
14:43	jensli	Someone you havent hear of released the Definitive guide, it might go on in that way...
14:44	LauJensen	Dont worry, Chouser has got it covered
14:45	Neronus	Or clojure for dummies
14:48	jensli	*** will that write "A brutal intro to clojure"
14:49	jensli	How does dynamic typing affect the possibility of IDE support?
14:49	jensli	Would it be possible to write a good rename tool for clojure?
14:49	jensli	For example...
14:50	rhickey	jensli: IntelliJ Clojure plugin does good renaming already
14:52	jensli	Allright, has to try that, have only played with it in eclipse, it rather spartan.
14:53	technomancy	it should be doable on top of slime's xref functionality, but afaik nobody's hooked it up
14:55	drewr	technomancy: I finally got swank loaded inside a persistent, non-repl jvm process
14:58	drewr	http://github.com/drewr/clot/commit/902272d69133e88b28147407e089733292511af8#L2L11
14:58	technomancy	drewr: slick!
14:59	drewr	swank really wants to be run from a repl, so you have to fake it
14:59	drewr	the repl stuff in clojure.main made it very easy -- thanks to whoever did that (scgilardi?)
15:35	weissj	anyone have any advice on how to get my repl to re-load java classes i'm developing without having to restart the jvm?
15:37	Chouser	generally the jvm doesn't allow loading a new definition for an existing class
15:38	Chouser	clojure lets you redefine any namespace, function, or proxy, though. You really need to reload a named Java class?
15:38	weissj	Chouser: hm ok, i had a feeling that wasn't possible (or easy at least). It's just clojure code that easy to change and debug in the same repl
15:38	Chouser	these are classes written in .java?
15:38	weissj	Chouser: yeah, my project here is basically a scripting environment for java classes
15:39	weissj	the script i can debug and update in the same repl, but if i have to change a java class,i have to restart the repl
15:39	hiredman	~google java rebel
15:39	clojurebot	First, out of 174000 results is:
15:39	Chouser	http://www.zeroturnaround.com/javarebel/
15:39	clojurebot	JavaRebel \| ZeroTurnaround.com
15:39	clojurebot	http://www.zeroturnaround.com/javarebel/
15:39	hiredman	nice
15:39	Chouser	yeah. you could try that, though I've not heard any reports of people using it with clojure
15:40	weissj	cool, i'm going to try that out
15:41	weissj	oh. hm, it's not really free
15:53	Chouser	rhickey: newnew doesn't currently try to create stable classnames, but will that change to support AOT?
15:56	Chouser	stable nor package qualified.
15:57	Licenser__	out of couriosity, what is newnew?
15:58	Chouser	Licenser__: I wrote a little about what it's for here: http://blog.n01se.net/?p=41
15:58	Licenser__	reads
15:59	Chouser	Licenser__: there's also a link there to rhickey's notes on the subject. There's also a branch "new" in the github repo with the work in progress.
15:59	Licenser__	ah okay new is a branch :)
16:01	Licenser__	hmm don't you have the hen egg problem when implementing a language in itself?
16:01	Licenser__	You will need a working implementation to implement it right?
16:01	Chouser	sure, but we already have one. The hen, probably.
16:01	Licenser__	But it would mean when somethign changes to change it twice, for the hen and for the egg that gives a new hen :P
16:02	Chouser	yep. standard compiler procedure.
16:04	danlei	Licenser__: you could always hand-compile (theoretically)
16:04	Licenser__	Chouser: hmm didn't knew that :) I'm quite new to compiler building :P
16:05	hiredman	whee
16:05	Chouser	Licenser__: the "normal" way to build gcc, for example, is to compile a minimal gcc using whatever c compiler you have handy.
16:05	Licenser__	ah I didn't knew that :)
16:05	Licenser__	I learn a lot here it seems
16:05	hiredman	the gcc build happens in stages, I believe
16:05	Licenser__	hmm clojurescript is very interesting too
16:05	hiredman	the last stage is to compile gcc with gcc
16:05	Chouser	Licenser__: that minimal compiler uses only the most widely supported C features so it's likely to work with your OS vendor's own compiler, or whatever.
16:07	Chouser	you go through two or three stages of using the previously built compiler to build a more featureful compiler needed for the next stage.
16:07	Licenser__	ah
16:07	Licenser_	I like this idea, it sounds very cool
16:07	hiredman	http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/Top-Level_Bootstrap
16:07	Licenser_	clojure-in-clojure
16:08	Chouser	you go through two or three stages of using the previously built compiler to build a more featureful compiler needed for the next stage.
16:08	Licenser_	You people are smartish :P
16:08	Chouser	er
16:08	Chouser	you go through two or three stages of using the previously built compiler to build a more featureful compiler needed for the next stage.
16:08	Licenser_	^^
16:08	Chouser	bah
16:08	Licenser_	You like to say that don't you?
16:08	Chouser	by the end you can have a gcc that was built from C source using all of gcc's own extensions and with gcc's most advanced optimizations.
16:08	Chouser	sorry
16:08	Licenser_	:P just teasing
16:09	Licenser_	makes kind of sense, oddly enough
16:09	Chouser	anyway, clojure-in-clojure isn't likely to be quite that extreme. For one, the .class files are already portable to anywhere that has a JVM, so you wouldn't generally need to distribute the original .java
16:10	danlei	first lisp was hand-compiled by steve russel, btw
16:10	hiredman	wow
16:10	hiredman	hand compiled from lisp?
16:10	danlei	yes
16:11	hiredman	I guess it bust have been
16:11	hiredman	jeez
16:11	Licenser_	I like to compile things myself, and I think distributins like gentoo would not be happy to only get .class
16:11	Licenser_	He had a lot of time and was very boored?
16:11	danlei	he took mccarthys "universal LISP function" and translated the whole thing by hand
16:11	Neronus	FWIW "LISP in small pieces" is probably enough to get one started (though I still have to read it :))
16:11	technomancy	lisp was a lot smaller back then. =)
16:11	technomancy	and he was a grad student
16:11	Chouser	Licenser_: I'm sure we'll keep the .java version around, and probably not just in the github history
16:11	hiredman	just have a shellscript that emits jvm bytecode
16:11	danlei	(mccarthy actually didn't even WANT that :)
16:13	Chousuke	I think it might be good to ship at least one version of Clojure with both the Java bits and the c-in-c bits whenever we get to that stage.
16:14	Chousuke	then it could be used to bootstrap itself, and the java bits could be dropped from the next version, requiring a previous version to compile.
16:14	Licenser_	makes sense
16:14	Licenser_	I like clojure, I really like it i must say =)
16:16	hiredman	I was kind if thinking, you could do a stripped down sort of stage one lisp, where the reading and compiler used java.util.* datastructures and then bootstrap clojure with that
16:16	Chousuke	or the java bits could be kept in, but moved out of the main namespace into clojure.bootstrap or something.
16:17	Chousuke	But I think first we need the actual c-in-c compiler :P
16:18	Licenser_	heh
16:18	Licenser_	yes that might be tricky
16:19	Chousuke	I should just get my reader to a state where I can introduce it to people ;(
16:20	Chousuke	still missing unicode escapes...
16:20	danlei	Chousuke: where is it?
16:20	hiredman	the whole bootstrapping thing makes my head spin when I try to think about it
16:21	Chousuke	also eval'ing clojure.core hit a roadblock with ns. apparently you can't redef "ns" in any namespace.
16:21	hiredman	clojure needs to have it's datastructures availble for clojure code to be read, but if the datastructures are written in clojure…
16:21	Chousuke	hiredman: heh.
16:21	hiredman	brain hurt
16:22	danlei	Chousuke: you have the source of your reader online?
16:22	Chousuke	hiredman: that's why you use an earlier compiler to compile the data structures first, and then recompile with the resulting compiler :P
16:22	Chousuke	danlei: yeah. http://www2.sandbox.google.com/search?q=clojure-reader
16:23	Chousuke	oops
16:23	Chousuke	wrong url.
16:23	Chousuke	http://github.com/Chousuke/clojure/commits/clojure-reader
16:23	danlei	Chousuke: thanks
16:23	Chousuke	not documented, optimised or organised in any way :P
16:24	danlei	that's ok, I'm just interested and wanted to take a look
16:26	Chousuke	I guess I should put some helper function in there to produce the reader input data structure from a string, for people who want to play with it.
16:26	danlei	github is slow as hell for me atm :\|
16:30	Chousuke	danlei: I pushed a helper function in there. should make it easier to play with.
16:32	LauJensen	danlei: Guess why people are moving to Gitorious
16:33	Chousuke	The Github people did blog about the slowness some time ago, didn't they?
16:33	Chousuke	apparently they're working on it :/
16:33	technomancy	we should at least have an auto-updating mirror on gitorious for the downtime/slowtime
16:33	LauJensen	I mailed them about it Chousuke, says they've been working on a fix since april, expect something big to happen "soon"
16:38	danlei	Chousuke: thanks
16:45	technomancy	I'll set up auto-pushes later: http://gitorious.org/clojure/clojure/trees/master
16:45	technomancy	for now it has master, 1.0.x, and new branches
16:52	danlei	hm, there was some feature like CL's * * (result of last evaluations) in clojure, wasn't it?
16:53	Chouser	1 2
16:53	danlei	aaah, thanks
16:54	Chousuke	technomancy: why don't you just push all the branches as they are from github to gitorious? :/
16:55	technomancy	Chousuke: only because I just haven't got a chance to look into automating it yet
16:56	ankou	hi is there a function which checks if an item is contained in a list?
16:57	hiredman	,(.contains '(1 2 3) 2)
16:57	clojurebot	true
16:57	hiredman	,((set '(1 2 3)) 2)
16:57	clojurebot	2
16:57	hiredman	,((set '(1 2 3)) 4)
16:57	clojurebot	nil
16:57	hiredman	~def set
17:00	hiredman	hmmm
17:00	danlei	Chousuke: after a first glance, I find it really nice :)
17:01	Chousuke	danlei: I tried to keep it that way. If it hadn't been fun to write I don't think I would've gotten this far :P
17:01	danlei	Chousuke: but I see you hardcoded the dispatch table, is that subject to change; will you expose the table to allow prefix-dispatch chars definition by the users?
17:02	Chouser	danlei: not if he wants rhickey to accept it
17:03	danlei	I mean, it's all there :) just add a char and define a method on a char
17:03	danlei	Chouser: I see
17:03	danlei	but it'd be trivial to do so
17:03	Chousuke	yeah, it would.
17:03	danlei	I understand rich's sentiments
17:03	danlei	reader macros tend to be ugly
17:04	Chouser	yes. also pretty simple to open up clojure's current reader to user defined reader macros
17:04	danlei	and clojure already has a lot of handy reader extensions
17:04	Chousuke	I just decided to emulate clojure behaviour for now.
17:04	Chouser	but once its available to users, it would be very hard to change or take away
17:04	danlei	anyway, nice piece of work, as far as I can tell (not trivial, just my first impression)
17:05	danlei	Chouser: yes, that's right
17:05	Chousuke	I won't be too disappointed if that reader ends up getting rewritten though.
17:06	Chousuke	it's still got many pieces that should be useful in any clojure reader implementation.
17:06	danlei	sure, I'll dive in a bit more, when I've got the time to do so
17:06	ankou	okay and is there another (maybe faster) way to check if there is any element in a list which satisfied a given predicate then just checking the size of the result of filter?
17:07	technomancy	(doc any?)
17:07	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
17:07	technomancy	,(doc any?)
17:07	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
17:07	technomancy	... =(
17:07	hiredman	,(doc some)
17:07	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns the first logical true value of (pred x) for any x in coll, else nil. One common idiom is to use a set as pred, for example this will return true if :fred is in the sequence, otherwise nil: (some #{:fred} coll)"
17:08	Chousuke	danlei: just be aware that it's still missing some bits. like unicode escapes :P
17:08	danlei	Chousuke: not a problem.
17:09	Chousuke	and #! and #_... hmm.
17:09	Chousuke	those ought to be trivial to implement though
17:09	danlei	well, #_ shouldn't be hard, what's #! again?
17:09	Chousuke	it's basically a comment too.
17:09	Chouser	#!/bin/clojure
17:09	danlei	ah, ok
17:09	danlei	for scripting, I see
17:10	Chousuke	they're so easy I just haven't bothered writing support for them :D
17:10	danlei	:)
17:10	hiredman	but I don't have a ca in
17:12	Chouser	hiredman: is that on purpose?
17:12	hiredman	no, I just hate mailing stuff
17:12	danlei	you're not alone :)
17:15	hiredman	I think I have the ca sitting on my desk at home (I definitely did before I cleaned up last weekend)
17:26	Chousuke	hmm.
17:26	Chousuke	now there is support for #! and #_ (though #_ probably could be smarter)
17:26	Chousuke	as it is, #_ actually reads the following form and then drops it...
17:28	danlei	yes, I see, creates an anonymous function without a body and calls it
17:29	hiredman	eh?
17:29	Chousuke	it does have a body, I used the function to avoid holding on to the old rh when consuming the ignored form
17:30	Chousuke	... though that may not help as my other consume methods are not as careful :)
17:30	Chousuke	but I intend to fix that.
17:32	Chousuke	,#_#=(clojure.core/println "foo")
17:32	clojurebot	EOF while reading
17:32	Chousuke	hm
17:32	Chousuke	,#_#=(clojure.core/println "foo")'a
17:32	clojurebot	a
17:32	clojurebot	foo
17:40	danlei	ah, misread that
17:47	ankou	the documentation talks about the read table as an extension system, so how can I access the read table?
17:48	hiredman	uh, what?
17:48	hiredman	which docs?
17:48	Chousuke	ankou: the read table is not accessible to users.
17:48	hiredman	rhickey specificly does not allow access to the read table
17:49	ankou	The behavior of the reader is driven by a combination of built-in constructs and an extension system called the read table.
17:49	Chousuke	yeah, but that extension system is only modifiable by the implementors.
17:50	Chousuke	it's that way because no-one has yet come up with an acceptable solution for conflicting reader macros.
17:51	hiredman	ankou: there are many threads on the google group that discuss this
17:51	ankou	okay
17:52	ankou	is it possible to include clojure as a library in any java program to use clojure as a scripting language for that program?
17:52	hiredman	sure
17:53	hiredman	I don't think there are any frame works to do it, but it should be relatively simple to setup
17:54	hiredman	you just initialize the clojure runtime, and fire it up
17:55	ankou	is there any documentation how to do that from java?
17:57	hiredman	http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Tutorials_and_Tips#Invoking_Clojure_from_Java
17:58	ankou	great, thanks
18:29	danlei	how can I access a non-public var from another namespace?
18:30	hiredman	:/
18:30	danlei	not at all?
18:30	hiredman	there are ways
18:31	danlei	for example?
18:31	hiredman	I forget
18:31	danlei	ok, but nothing like foo::bar I guess?
18:31	hiredman	some kind of mix of various reader macros
18:31	danlei	ok, ty
18:31	cemerick	#'other.namespace/foo will get you the var, regardless of its :public metadata
18:32	hiredman	#'clojure.core/throw-if
18:32	hiredman	,#'clojure.core/throw-if
18:32	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/throw-if
18:32	hiredman	,@#'clojure.core/throw-if
18:32	clojurebot	#<core$throw_if__5764 clojure.core$throw_if__5764@16909e0>
18:33	danlei	thanks!
23:20	JAS415	I have a question about mapping
23:20	hiredman	the map function?
23:20	JAS415	it seems that whenever I do a map operation rather than just evaluating the head of the sequence, it will evaluate an arbitrary number off of the head
23:20	JAS415	yeah
23:21	hiredman	uh
23:21	JAS415	so i'm doing mapcat on a function that does an api request to get a lazy seq of requests
23:21	hiredman	ah
23:21	hiredman	so you are not mapping
23:21	hiredman	you are mapcatting
23:21	JAS415	it'll do 4 requests, i want 1
23:21	JAS415	right but i would have expected that to be the same thing
23:21	hiredman	mapcat uses concat, and concat is not fully lazy
23:22	JAS415	oooh
23:22	JAS415	i didn't realize concat wasn't fully lazy
23:22	JAS415	that could be the root of many of my problems
23:22	hiredman	,(doc concat)
23:22	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x y] [x y & zs]); Returns a lazy seq representing the concatenation of the elements in the supplied colls."
23:22	hiredman	,(doc lazy-cat)
23:22	clojurebot	"([& colls]); Expands to code which yields a lazy sequence of the concatenation of the supplied colls. Each coll expr is not evaluated until it is needed. (lazy-cat xs ys zs) === (concat (lazy-seq xs) (lazy-seq ys) (lazy-seq zs))"
23:23	hiredman	lazy-cat is a macro though
23:23	JAS415	yeah i couldn't use it with an arbitrary number i suppose
23:26	JAS415	yeah switching to a straight map fixes it
23:27	JAS415	i'll just rearrange my code to accomodate that
23:27	JAS415	thanks!
23:29	tomoj	is concat partially lazy? what does that mean?
23:29	JAS415	well it seems to be chunked or something
23:29	JAS415	like
23:29	JAS415	do
23:30	JAS415	(apply concat (map fn seq))
23:30	cark	i think tha has to do with the multiple parameter lists
23:30	JAS415	it'll evaluate the first few of the seq from resulting map
23:30	cark	though you would see 3 elements realized instead of 4
23:52	technomancy	the mirror at http://gitorious.org/clojure/clojure should be fully automated now
23:52	technomancy	clojurebot: gitorious mirror is http://gitorious.org/clojure/clojure
23:52	clojurebot	In Ordnung
23:53	technomancy	for github's slow days