#clojure – 2009-08-23

2009-08-23

00:48	elben	I'm confused by the apply function. Why does (apply + [1 2]) return 3, but (apply print [1 2]) return "1 2nil"? Aren't we applying the function + and print to each item in the given vector? Then, why did the first example add up 1 and 2?
00:49	cark	it prints 1 and 2 ...then returns nil
00:50	cark	you get the same result with (print 1 2)
00:50	cark	,(print 1 2)
00:50	clojurebot	1 2
00:50	cark	hum clojurebot refuses to show it =/
00:50	elben	i see it
00:51	elben	so what does apply actually do? calls the function on each item in the given arg right?
00:51	replaca__	I think clojurebot special cases print
00:52	lowlycoder	gl.glClear(GL.GL_COLOR_BUFFER_BIT \| GL.GL_DEPTH_BUFFER_BIT);
00:52	lowlycoder	how do I get bit or in clojure?
00:52	cark	(apply + [1 2 3 4]) is the same thing as (+ 1 2 3 4)
00:52	tomoj	,(bit-or 1 2)
00:52	clojurebot	3
00:53	elben	cark: I see.. kinda. My experinece w/ functional langs are virtually nil (a tiny bit of haskell is all ;)
00:54	tomoj	elben: (apply print [1 2]) returns only nil
00:54	lowlycoder	tomoj: thanks
00:54	tomoj	it prints "1 2", but because there's no newline, the return value is shown immediately afterward on the repl
00:54	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
00:55	elben	tomoj: yes that makes sense, thanks
00:55	cark	you'll get used to apply =)
00:56	replaca__	elben: compare apply to map. Map calls the function on each element of the sequence and returns a (lazy) sequence of the results
00:57	replaca__	apply call 1 func with n args, map calls the func n times with 1 arg (unless you give it multiple sequences)
00:57	replaca__	*apply calls ...
00:58	elben	replaca__: I just started learning clojure, and I haven't gotten to map yet =P
00:59	elben	but i assume it's the same as other languages
00:59	elben	or similar
00:59	replaca__	elben: yup, pretty much
00:59	replaca__	as is apply (or at least other lisps)
01:00	replaca__	clojure's laziness is a little different, though. Not as pervasive as Haskell, but more aggressive than most langs
01:01	elben	i'm sure i'll get to all that fun stuff eventually =)
01:01	replaca__	yup, it's all cool!
01:02	elben	going through pragmatic's book right now. I wished it went into more detail (for the benefit of those that do not know a lisp), but I suppose it will work for now
01:16	lowlycoder	user=> (import '(javax.media.opengl GLDrawableFactory))
01:16	lowlycoder	nil
01:16	lowlycoder	user=> (show GLDrawableFactory)
01:16	lowlycoder	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: show in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:17)
01:16	lowlycoder	how do I get clojure to show me all the functions of GLDrawableFactory ?
01:20	lowlycoder	user=> (import 'java.util.HashMap)
01:20	lowlycoder	nil
01:20	lowlycoder	user=> (show java.util.HashMap)
01:20	lowlycoder	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: show in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:22)
01:21	lowlycoder	why does the above not work?
01:24	replaca__	lowlycoder: you've gotta use c.c.repl-utils
01:24	lowlycoder	clojure.contrib ?
01:25	replaca__	yah
01:25	replaca__	http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/repl-utils-api.html#repl-utils/show
01:27	tomoj	lowlycoder: are you using slime?
01:27	lowlycoder	no
01:27	lowlycoder	vim user
01:28	tomoj	oh well
01:28	tomoj	in slime you can do C-c I, then type the class (or it guesses it if you're pointing at it), and you can browse all the methods/fields
01:29	tomoj	doesn't work too well for clojure stuff yet but gives you the signatures for java methods
01:29	lowlycoder	user=> GLDrawableFactory/getFactory
01:29	lowlycoder	java.lang.Exception: Unable to find static field: getFactory in class javax.media.opengl.GLDrawableFactory (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
01:29	lowlycoder	however, I also have:
01:29	lowlycoder	user=> (show GLDrawableFactory)
01:29	lowlycoder	=== public abstract javax.media.opengl.GLDrawableFactory ===
01:29	lowlycoder	[ 0] static getFactory : GLDrawableFactory ()
01:29	lowlycoder	so why can't I go GLDrawableFactory/getFactory ?
01:29	tomoj	getFactory is a method
01:29	tomoj	(GLDrawableFactory/getFactory)
01:29	lowlycoder	user=> (GLDrawableFactory/getFactory)
01:29	lowlycoder	#<X11GLDrawableFactory com.sun.opengl.impl.x11.X11GLDrawableFactory@45b34126>
01:29	lowlycoder	nice
01:29	lowlycoder	thanks
01:29	tomoj	http://clojure.org/java_interop
01:30	lowlycoder	yeah, it just confuses me that if (f) evalutes the function,
01:31	lowlycoder	f # won't give me "hey, this is a function"
01:31	tomoj	normally it would
01:31	tomoj	but the java interop is a bit different
01:31	tomoj	GLDrawableFactory/getFactory looks for a static field
01:53	lowlycoder	how can a function refer to itself?
01:54	lowlycoder	(let [my-fun (fn [] .... i want to refer to my-fun from in here)])
01:57	tomoj	lowlycoder: refer? for calling?
01:57	lowlycoder	yes
01:57	tomoj	you should use recur
01:57	lowlycoder	so this function my-fun does some stuff then stuffs itself into a callback function
01:57	lowlycoder	the last line of my-fun is:
01:58	tomoj	oh, then no
01:58	lowlycoder	(. display asyncExec my-fun)
01:58	tomoj	fn is hygienic I believe
01:59	tomoj	so it won't bind a special variable to refer to the function itself
01:59	lowlycoder	how do I express these idioms?
02:00	tomoj	are you doing continuation passing?
02:00	tomoj	just curious
02:00	lowlycoder	no, converint a swt/jogl app into clojure
02:00	tomoj	having a function that refers to itself seems pretty odd to me
02:01	lowlycoder	supose you have a timer function
02:01	lowlycoder	that wants to add itself to the callback at the end of the timer
02:01	tomoj	I think you might be able to do it with letfn though
02:01	tomoj	,(letfn [(foo [] foo)] (foo))
02:01	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval__2562$foo__2564 sandbox$eval__2562$foo__2564@169baee>
02:03	lowlycoder	tomoj: nice; thanks
02:05	tomoj	that function just keeps returning copies of itself I think
02:06	tomoj	yup
02:06	tomoj	pretty bizarre
02:41	lowlycoder	does clojure have it's own timer classes, or do i need to use java's?
02:41	lowlycoder	basically i want to create a thread and have it run at 30fps
02:41	lowlycoder	err, a function called at 30 fps
02:43	tomoj	the way the ants demo does it is by sending off to an agent that runs the thread
02:43	tomoj	and then within that, create a new thread that just sleeps for however many ms
02:45	lowlycoder	do agents / clojure automatically create threads behind my back, or do I manually create / manage threads?
02:47	tomoj	normally you manually create/manage threads
02:47	tomoj	agents can make their own though
03:22	lowlycoder	user=> Thread/NORM_PRIORITY
03:22	lowlycoder	5
03:22	lowlycoder	does this change per jvm run, or is iit failry static?
03:32	tomoj	it's always 5
03:32	tomoj	except maybe if you switch jvm versions
03:32	lowlycoder	so reading the java dos, is I have two threads, one of priority 6, one of priority 5, on a single CPU machine
03:32	tomoj	not sure if there are any historical differences or differences in other implementations
03:32	lowlycoder	and the priority 6 thread is while(1) { };
03:33	lowlycoder	then the priority 5 thread just starves?
03:33	lowlycoder	(assuming the JIT doesn't optimize that out)
03:45	tomoj	I suppose so
08:43	angerman	is there a fn that does ['a' 'b' 'c'] [1 2 3] -> ['a' 1 'b' 2 'c' 3] ?
08:44	mikem`_	angerman: isn't that zip?
08:44	mikem`_	,(doc zip)
08:44	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
08:45	mikem`_	,(find-doc zip*)
08:45	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: zip* in this context
08:45	mikem`_	,(find-doc zip)
08:45	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: zip in this context
08:45	angerman	,(zip ['a' 'b' 'c'] [1 2 3])
08:45	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: ]
08:46	angerman	hmm
08:46	angerman	,(zipmap ['a' 'b' 'c'] [1 2 3])
08:46	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: ]
08:46	mikem`_	,(doc interleave)
08:46	clojurebot	"([& colls]); Returns a lazy seq of the first item in each coll, then the second etc."
08:47	mikem`_	,(interleave ['a' 'b' 'c'] [1 2 3])
08:47	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: ]
08:47	kotarak	,(zipmap ["a" "b" "c"] [1 2 3])
08:47	clojurebot	{"c" 3, "b" 2, "a" 1}
08:48	mikem`_	,(interleave ["a" "b" "c"] [1 2 3])
08:48	clojurebot	("a" 1 "b" 2 "c" 3)
08:48	angerman	ahh. thanks
08:48	mikem`_	haha, took a few tries
08:50	kotarak	the correct delimiter for string is " not '
08:50	kotarak	,(macroexpand-1 ''x)
08:50	clojurebot	(quote x)
08:50	kotarak	,(macroexpand-1 '"x")
08:51	clojurebot	"x"
09:30	hamza	hey guys, if i create a file containing [ 1 2 3 ] and read this in to string is it possible to turn this into a vector?
09:31	cark	,(read-string "[1 2 3]")
09:31	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
09:31	hamza	,(doc read-string)
09:31	clojurebot	"([s]); Reads one object from the string s"
09:32	hamza	thank you can i use this to read a while snippet of code and execute it?
09:32	cark	,(eval (read-string "(println \"hello\")"))
09:32	clojurebot	DENIED
09:32	cark	eval denied =/
09:32	cark	but yes it works
09:33	hamza	thanks you.
09:33	hamza	*thank
09:33	cark	add a read and a loop, and you have your very own repl !
09:35	hamza	i was thinking to store state i would just write the object to disk as lisp statements and read them back to restore state is this good/bad practice?
09:36	cark	i do this as well
09:36	cark	but don't eval if you do this
09:36	cark	there is a limit to the size of what you can eval
09:36	cark	while reading has no size limitation
09:37	cark	prudence would also require you to disable read-eval
09:37	hamza	kk
09:37	cark	i mean read-eval
09:38	cark	mhhh let's see if we can cheat with clojurebot =P
09:38	cark	,(read-string "#=(eval (def x 3))")
09:38	clojurebot	#'sandbox/x
09:38	cark	hehe
09:38	cark	,x
09:38	clojurebot	3
09:39	cark	hiredmaaaan !
09:39	hamza	hehe
11:36	Licenser__	hmmm hmmm what is a good thing to start of with clojure
11:37	Chouser_	projecteuler
11:38	Licenser__	Chouser: my favourite channel user ^^. And that is a nice ida
11:38	Licenser__	*idea
11:38	Chouser	:-)
11:51	cark	mhh if i want to avoid too many side effects due to retries in a function in a dosync, would it be ok to temporarily memoize that function ?
11:51	cark	or should i avoid side effects alltogether ?
11:52	cark	sometimes you need to check the state of a ref, depending on it maybe do side effects, then update the ref
11:53	cark	or is it bad architecture ?
12:01	Chouser	I'd be suspicious of the desire to put any kind of side-effect in a transaction.
12:07	cark	yes =/
12:07	cark	but there are different kind of ..huh ... side effect severity
12:08	LauJensen	I would recommend you try, as far as humanly possible, to code without sideeffects. Its not hard to go back from, but its hard to get there.
12:09	cark	opening a database connection is side effect, and there's no way around it =)
12:09	Chouser	cark: yeah. don't do that in a transaction. :-)
12:09	cark	well
12:10	cark	if the function that returns the connection is memoized for the duration of the dosync
12:10	cark	i mean memoized around it
12:10	cark	then i get at worst one connection created
12:11	cark	or the transaction might fail, and then my connection is up for garbage collection
12:12	cark	that sounds hacky doesn't it ?
12:12	Chouser	why not open the connection before the dosync, use it inside, and close it after?
12:12	cark	the whole point is about creating connections, that's a connection pool i'm trying to do
12:12	Chouser	oh
12:13	Chouser	are you coordinating with other refs, or is there just the one pool?
12:14	cark	that's another thing i'm not sure about
12:14	cark	i'd like to have a count of in-use connections
12:14	cark	so that i can gracefully exit, waiting for all connections to be returned
12:14	cark	(to th pool)
12:15	cark	actually this last part is the reason why i need coordination, and risk problems if i'm not creating the connection inside the dosync
12:17	Chouser	just musing aloud here, but I wonder if it would help to have new connections be created by a lazy seq
12:17	cark	mhh
12:18	cark	it is truely some kind of memoization
12:18	Chouser	in your dosync you'd (alter connection-seq rest)
12:19	Chouser	if the transaction retries, you'll keep reusing the first of the connection-seq
12:20	cark	right this makes sense
12:20	cark	though the connection might become unavailable in the mean-time
12:20	Chouser	when it succeeds and commits that alter, your next transaction will cause the next new connection to be created when it callse (first connection-seq)
12:20	Chouser	hm
12:21	Chouser	well, connections can become unavailable at any point, couldn't they?
12:21	Chouser	that's just a general real-world failure case.
12:21	cark	right
12:21	cark	connetions are checked before handing these out to the caller
12:22	cark	and a new one might be recreated on failure
12:22	cark	so i guess that's a non-issue
12:23	cark	well thanks, i might go this direction =)
12:24	Chouser	it's still a side-effect in a transaction, I guess, but packaged up sufficiently safely. I hope. :-)
12:24	Licenser__	hmm I like this ^^
12:27	rhickey	http://dobbscodetalk.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Clojure-vs.-Scala.html&Itemid=29
12:27	Chouser	not dramatically different than your memoization idea, since that's what lazy seqs do for you anyway, but this allows the consumer to indicate when it wants to reuse the old one (on retry) vs. getting a new one (after commit)
12:29	cark	i think both memoization and lazy-seq are overkill, memoization has this hash-table stuff that i don't need for a no-parameter function, and lazy-seq all the lazy-stuff for a one-off
12:30	cark	rhickey : hey i'm working in telecoms ! i'm in the fortune 1bazillon bracket
12:31	Chouser	cark: (repeatedly create-connection) ; that's it
12:31	cark	chouser : right but i need to maintain a reference to the sequence
12:32	woodz	rhickey: interesting article, although I'm not sure about the "I think Scala's got the edge because I've never grokked Lisp" line of thinking.
12:32	woodz	Although I can imagine moving from Java to Scala being a gentler experience than Clojure.
12:33	rhickey	woodz: probably, I'm not too keen on the whole 'vs' way of thinking - the Java market is positively huge and has more than enough room for Clojure and Scala
12:33	woodz	Agreed. Language wars tend not to go anywhere.
12:35	Licenser__	I found the article pretty empty. It's a prefference there are hardly any facts at all presentet :/
12:35	Licenser__	Ruby isn't better then Clojure because I am more used to it either :P
12:37	rhickey	I think the fact that it is a question - whether or not a mostly functional Lisp will be a contender, that is most interesting
12:38	rhickey	Ultimately tools get adopted because people accomplish things with them, not due to any arguments for/against
12:38	rhickey	e.g. PHP gets not much love as a language in and of itself
12:39	cark	~paste?
12:39	clojurebot	lisppaste8, url
12:39	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
12:40	lisppaste8	cark pasted "once" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85905
12:40	cark	chouser : there !
12:41	LauJensen	rhickey: Hows newnew coming along ?
12:47	Licenser__	rhickey: PHP is a horrible language :/
12:47	rhickey	LauJensen: I hope to get back to it this week - only 2 things left - fabrication of bridge methods and non-reflective self calls
12:47	LauJensen	great
12:51	jwr7	Is there anything that would prohibit a dosync block inside a watch function?
12:52	jwr7	I have a watch function (added to an agent via add-watch) and I'd like it to update some refs. But it seems as though my dosync just quietly does nothing...
12:53	LauJensen	It can be tough to catch errors in threads, but dosync should work fine
12:53	jwr7	LauJensen: you mean there could be exceptions thrown without them being visible to me?
13:11	Licenser__	hrm clojugre gives errors that are about as helpfull as Java exception :/
13:11	Licenser__	what is this meaning: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Boolean (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
13:11	Licenser__	?
13:14	Licenser__	The code that caiuses it is: http://pastie.org/592293
13:15	woodz	(true) on line 10 doesn't look right.
13:15	Licenser__	never mind I found it ^^
13:15	Licenser__	woodz: yes exactly
13:15	Licenser__	I had the impression that I need to put everything in ()
13:16	woodz	Too many parentheses in a Lisp... Who'd have thought..? ;-)
13:16	Licenser__	:P
13:19	alinp	hi
13:19	Licenser__	hi alinp
13:20	alinp	something weird is happening here when using memoize function
13:20	alinp	(def x (memoize reduce))
13:21	alinp	and running (x + (range 0 99999999))
13:21	alinp	no improvement
13:21	alinp	I mean, running it for few times
13:22	alinp	when used for ... fib function for instance, everything is ok
13:24	LauJensen	jwr7: I appologize for the delay. Yes - I dont remeber ever seeing exceptions from threads in my lisp buffers
13:24	luis	alinp: how do you test for equality between two sequences?
13:24	jwr7	LauJensen: it seems you're right -- removing some println statements cured the issue.
13:24	alinp	luis: yeah ... now I'm starting to figure it out :)
13:25	alinp	(range 0 9999) will yield each time other object :)
13:25	alinp	so, different param
13:25	LauJensen	jwr7: k, cool. The one certain debug instance you have is (javax.swing.JOptionPane/showMessageDialog nil "foo")
13:25	alinp	true
13:25	alinp	thanks luis
13:25	luis	alinp: it wasn't a rethorical question, but glad I could help. :)
13:25	alinp	:)
13:26	alinp	luis: eq between 2 seq ... are eq if all elements are in the same order and the same elements
13:26	alinp	some naive comparator .. it would sould like this
13:26	alinp	right ?
13:26	luis	it would what?
13:27	alinp	s/sould/sound/g
13:27	alinp	:D
13:28	luis	,(== (range 0 1) (range 0 1))
13:28	clojurebot	false
13:28	alinp	so, it's using the java approach ? :)
13:28	alinp	comparing hashCode ?
13:29	luis	alinp: IIUC, == calls the equal() method.
13:29	Chouser	== is for numbers
13:29	Chouser	,(= (range 0 1) (range 0 1))
13:29	clojurebot	true
13:29	alinp	so, Chouser why my memoization doesn't work ?
13:30	alinp	(def x (memoize reduce))
13:30	alinp	(x + (range 0 99999999))
13:31	alinp	running it for few times -> no improvement
13:31	alinp	for sure I'm missing something, but don't know what
13:32	jwr7	I'm curious -- why do the watch functions (see add-watch) take a reference argument? You're not supposed to deref it anyway, and you are definitely not supposed to mutate it. So what is it for?
13:32	luis	alinp: see, I told you I didn't know how test for equality. :)
13:32	alinp	:)
13:33	Chouser	alinp: (hash (range 0 1e7)) takes a long time -- that has to be done even to get a cache hit
13:33	alinp	oh, I see
13:34	Chouser	it's probably taking almost as long to get the hash in order to do a lookup as it does to sum them
13:34	Chouser	hm
13:34	alinp	yeah
13:34	alinp	true
13:34	alinp	it seems so
13:35	alinp	,(time (hash (range 0 9999999)))
13:35	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
13:35	Chouser	oh, neat -- the assoc of a big range on a small map is fast because it's an array map and doesn't have to hash to insert
13:35	alinp	ok Chouser, it makes sense now
13:38	alinp	thanks also for hash function, didn't know about it
13:38	alinp	I used (. xxxx hashCode) :)
13:39	alinp	in fact, range returns a lazy seq ... ok
13:39	alinp	and .... in order to get the hash code, you need to evaluate all of it's elements
13:39	alinp	so, that's why I think it takes so long
13:40	Licenser__	hmm clojure is really nice for such nifty things as the problems on the project thing
13:43	luis	Licenser_: project euler?
13:44	Licenser_	http://projecteuler.net/ <- this one. Chouser was so nice to remind me of it, it's nice to get used a bit to the way you deal with things in clojure
13:44	Licenser_	I love how you can create a lazy sequence of prime numbers ^^
13:55	jwr7	java.util.concurrent.RejectedExecutionException -- hints, anyone?
13:56	Licenser_	Java feels rejected?
13:58	Chouser	need a stack trace
13:58	Chouser	I think thread pools throw that when you try to queue something after they've been stopped
13:59	jwr7	Chouser: are there any limits to the number of actions I can enqueue?
13:59	Chouser	dunno
14:00	jwr7	Chouser: I'm sending lots of agent actions (well, in the thousands) and there is something wrong with the code, so they might get queued somewhere...
14:08	LauJensen	jwr7: I think you should keep it below 2000 as a general rule of thumb
14:09	jwr7	LauJensen: uh-oh, then I might have a problem.
14:10	jwr7	Any reasons for this limit? I would love to be able to enqueue more, as this means less data structures in my application.
14:11	jwr7	ok, I think the exception was caused by bugs in the code and my testing session. Restarting clojure made it go away.
14:11	LauJensen	jwr7: Check out James Reeves reply in this post, his first one: http://groups.google.com/group/compojure/browse_thread/thread/1f0df9d6656fa069
14:11	LauJensen	According to him - And I've learned not to question what he says - Its a limitation of Java
14:12	Chouser	that's number of simultaneous threads, isn't it? That's not the same as number of agents or number of actions.
14:12	jwr7	LauJensen: oh, but he's talking about threads, and I mean actions.
14:13	jwr7	The thread pool is CPUs+2, from what I know. It's just that I expect to enqueue lots of agent actions.
14:13	LauJensen	I'm talking about threads as well.
14:13	Chouser	,(let [a (agent 0)] (send a #(do (Thread/sleep 3000) %)) (dotimes [i 1e4] (send a inc)) (await a) @a)
14:13	clojurebot	10000
14:13	Chouser	10000 actions, no problem.
14:13	jwr7	Chouser: oh, cool. I should be fine, then.
14:14	Chouser	,(let [a (agent 0)] (dotimes [i 4] (send a #(do (Thread/sleep 2000) %))) (dotimes [i 1e4] (send a inc)) (println "awaiting") (await a) @a)
14:14	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
14:15	Chouser	,(let [a (agent 0)] (dotimes [i 4] (send a #(do (Thread/sleep 1000) %))) (dotimes [i 1e4] (send a inc)) (println "awaiting") (await a) @a)
14:15	clojurebot	10000
14:15	clojurebot	awaiting
14:15	Chouser	you can't see the timing of it there, but if you run it yourself you'll see
14:16	Chouser	there I'm clogging up the send queue so that all the inc actions will queue up. You'll see "awaiting" almost instantly.
14:16	Chouser	oh, I didn't need that -- this is one agent, so my first example was sufficient.
14:22	stuarthalloway	am I crazy, or didn't somebody start writing seq-utils tests? Don't see them in contrib...
14:22	clojurebot	contrib is http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/tree/master
14:23	stuarthalloway	did I just accidentally invoke the clojurebot...
14:24	Licenser_	How is the regexp support in clojure?
14:27	Chouser	Licenser_: stellar
14:27	Chouser	stuarthalloway: he just chimes in on his own at times.
14:27	Chouser	Licenser_: er, I just meant that clojure has fantastic regex support.
14:27	Licenser_	oops oh okay
14:28	Chousuke	,(class #"foo")
14:28	clojurebot	java.util.regex.Pattern
14:28	Chousuke	like that.
14:28	Licenser_	Good start
14:28	Chouser	contrib str-utils2 has nice helper functions if what's in core is insufficient.
14:28	Licenser_	nods
14:29	Chousuke	It'd be really neat if regexps could be used as functions though :/
14:29	Chouser	Chousuke: would they act like re-seq or re-find or something else?
14:30	Licenser_	yes it would be nice if you could use them as functions something like: (/"/'/s string)
14:31	Chouser	(str2/replace string #"\"" "'")
14:31	Chouser	not quite as succinct as perl, I suppose
14:31	Licenser_	Chouser: yes but the other one would be nicer :P
14:32	Licenser_	I love how nice ruby (sorry I love the language) handles regexp's :P
14:32	Chousuke	Chouser: probably just returning the match or nil if none. could be used as a filter. hmm.
14:32	Chouser	Chousuke: both re-find and re-seq do that
14:33	Licenser_	hmm you could actually give back a lazs seq that gives all matches peace for peace if possible ^^
14:33	Chouser	Licenser_: that's re-seq
14:33	Chouser	:-)
14:33	Licenser_	ow
14:33	Licenser_	that is incredible nice
14:35	Licenser_	hmmm I really really like the lazy sequence idea is really really great
14:37	Chouser	I've done some experiments mmaping a large text file, then using re-seq on it to load and search only as much as needed until I have the matches I need.
14:37	Chouser	pretty fast
14:38	Chouser	(take 3 (re-seq #"this.*stuff" mmaped-file))
14:38	Licenser_	like the further thingy
14:39	Chouser	seque will do that for you.
14:39	Chouser	it allows a lazy-seq producer to, in another thread, get ahead of the consumer by however much you want to allow
14:39	Licenser_	neat
14:50	Chouser	chunking 'for' just passed all the regression tests. Now to see if it's actually any faster...
14:51	Chouser	oh, whoops, no it didn't...
14:51	Licenser_	I wonder why did they made up a new regexp syntax?
14:51	Chouser	Licenser_: who?
14:51	Licenser_	why not use /<regexp>/ but #"<regexp>"
14:51	Chouser	oh
14:51	Licenser_	clojure
14:52	Licenser_	I think that isn't a good step, it will scare some people
14:53	Chouser	it's hard to tell at read time if / foo / is a regex or the / symbol twice and the symbol foo in between
14:53	Chouser	in clojure # always indicates special reader behavior, the exact sort indicated by the following char
14:54	Chousuke	Licenser_: / would have complicated things a LOT.
14:54	Licenser_	hmmm but it would be nicer .p
14:54	Chouser	#^ is metadata, #_ a comment, #( an anonymous fn, #" a regex
14:54	Chouser	I guess one could make a case for #/regex/
14:54	Chousuke	though #/foo/ would perhaps have been a better... yeah.
14:54	Licenser_	I was about to say that
14:55	Licenser_	get out of my head :P
14:55	Licenser_	it's getting crowded in here
14:55	Chouser	heh
14:55	Licenser_	I think using // would be possible but I understand that it would make stuff a lot harder
14:55	Chousuke	for the reader, anyway :P
14:56	Licenser_	yes
14:56	Licenser_	I think people would understand stuff
14:56	Chouser	and there are always lots of readers. rhickey is wary of making up new parsing rules that make it hard for syntax coloring tools, etc.
14:56	Licenser_	and who would write if( / foo /)
14:56	Licenser_	I'm not even sur eif that would make any sense
14:56	Licenser_	or even be conform syntax
14:57	Licenser_	it is good syntax but it makes little to no sense
14:57	Licenser_	who would ever want to test /?
14:58	Chousuke	hmm
14:58	Chousuke	,/
14:58	clojurebot	#<core$_SLASH___4112 clojure.core$_SLASH___4112@9830bc>
14:58	Chousuke	that's actually the only symbol allowed to contain / :P
14:58	Chousuke	,foo/
14:58	clojurebot	Invalid token: foo/
14:58	Licenser_	so it is special
14:59	Licenser_	well you use it to seperate namespace and thing
14:59	Chouser	right
14:59	Chousuke	yeah. normally / is the namespace separator
14:59	Chousuke	,'core/foo/bar
14:59	clojurebot	core/foo/bar
14:59	Chousuke	hmm.
14:59	Chousuke	,'core/foo/
14:59	clojurebot	Invalid token: core/foo/
15:00	Chouser	,(namespace 'core/foo/bar)
15:00	Chousuke	apparently it's only forbidden at the end :/
15:00	clojurebot	"core/foo"
15:00	Licenser_	(ns/bla /) still would be non confusable since you can't call a namespace
15:00	Licenser_	you can use / within namespaces o.O
15:00	Licenser_	,(namespace 'core/fooµbar)
15:00	clojurebot	"core"
15:01	Licenser_	he does not like that :P
15:01	Chousuke	well, you can but I don't think it's supported :P
15:01	Licenser_	no unicode namespaces?
15:01	Chousuke	your namespace is core in that symbol
15:02	Chousuke	,(namespace 'cœre/foo)
15:02	clojurebot	"cœre"
15:02	Chouser	gah
15:02	Licenser_	heh
15:02	Chousuke	but I think that might not work when actually creating a namespace :P
15:02	Licenser_	nice
15:03	Licenser_	(ns µbla)
15:03	Licenser_	nil
15:03	Licenser_	1:48 µbla=>
15:03	Licenser_	weeh I can use µ as a namespace
15:04	Chousuke	,(namespace '　/　)
15:04	clojurebot	nil
15:04	Licenser_	I wonder if the rhickey here is the guy who started the whole thingy?
15:05	Chousuke	he is.
15:05	Licenser_	so we can pester him to make #" #/? dodges and hides
15:05	Chousuke	Well, you can but you'll probably fail :P
15:05	Chousuke	and I don't recommend trying.
15:06	gko	Hello: In SLIME, how do you interrupt a stuck REPL because of socket problem?
15:06	Licenser_	Oh apple will be happy:
15:06	Licenser_	,(ns )
15:06	clojurebot	nil
15:07	Licenser_	I like that you can make funky namespaces this way :D
15:07	Chousuke	I think most of unicode works.
15:07	Chousuke	Though I'm not sure if things beyond the BMP will
15:07	Licenser_	No idea
15:10	Licenser_	Hmm okay another question, clojure is really nice for one machine pralelism, but is there a build in way to utilize more then one system?
15:11	Chouser	it can take advantage of any of the several systems for spreading java work across multiple machines.
15:11	LauJensen	gko: slime-abort-connection
15:11	Licenser_	so nothing clojure intern thingy
15:11	Chouser	people are working to make several of them play as nicely with clojure as possible.
15:11	Chouser	right, nothing internal.
15:12	Licenser_	something like
15:12	Chouser	though the print/read stuff may be a nice way to send data around.
15:13	Licenser_	(register <ip>) or so would be nice when it then connects to a clojure on the other end and pmap or so automatically uses the second host
15:13	rathore_	chouser: i'm using print/read to send data between requesters and workers in swarmiji
15:13	icey	so... I've recently cocked up my emacs installation... who currently has the best dox on getting emacs + clojure up and running from scratch (on a mac if it makes a difference) technomancy is the one I used previously, I think
15:13	Chouser	rathore_: I've heard good things about swarmiji, but I haven't looked at it yet.
15:13	gko	LauJensen: Thanks!
15:13	Licenser_	what is swarmiji? (googeling for it too)
15:13	rathore_	chouser: thanks, maybe u will need it some day :)
15:14	rathore_	licenser_: swarmiji is a parallel, distributed computing framework for Clojure
15:14	Licenser_	Ah neatisch
15:14	rathore_	we use it at runa.com to split up computations in real-time
15:14	rathore_	http://swarmiji.org
15:16	Licenser_	ah neat
15:17	Licenser_	looks cool
15:18	Licenser_	it's nice how good clojure seems to be for paralelism
15:18	Chouser	hmph. chunked 'for' is right except it does an extra 'seq' in some cases.
15:19	rathore_	licenser_: it absolutely is... and with swarmiji you can go across jvms on different machines also
15:19	Licenser_	Yes that is like a perfectish thing
15:19	psmyth_	I'm trying to implement a Java interface using (proxy <class...> <args..> & <fns>)
15:20	psmyth_	sets up ok but some callbacks don't seem to get tripped
15:21	psmyth_	anybody have experience with this? maybe there are threading issues?
15:22	StartsWithK	what part of clojure.contrib.expect depends on 'immigrate'?
15:23	Chouser	psmyth_: threading shouldn't be an issue unless you're using proxy-super
15:25	psmyth_	almost like the API I am coding against isn't "grabbing" the callback methods.
15:25	Chouser	if you misspell a method, no error is generated
15:26	Licenser_	why is this happening:
15:26	Licenser_	,((first '(+)) 1 2)
15:26	clojurebot	2
15:26	Chouser	,(class (first '(+)))
15:26	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
15:26	psmyth_	gotcha
15:26	Licenser_	,(class +)
15:26	clojurebot	clojure.core$_PLUS___4094
15:27	Chouser	('+ {:a 1, :b 2, '+ 3})
15:27	Chouser	,('+ {:a 1, :b 2, '+ 3})
15:27	clojurebot	3
15:28	Licenser_	hmm how could I get this to work o.O
15:28	Chousuke	you want the function from the symbol?
15:28	Licenser_	yap
15:28	Chousuke	,(resolve '+)
15:28	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/+
15:28	Licenser_	ah nice
15:28	Chousuke	that way you get the var
15:28	Chousuke	which just forwards to the function
15:29	Licenser_	:D thanks
15:32	danlei	also (class (first (list +))), ' quotes
15:33	danlei	(or: (class (first [+])))
15:33	Licenser_	dankthanks
17:21	dave[csc]	Anyone suggest a good tutorial/howto on tearing apart a file in Clojure? What I've found so far isn't so helpful...
17:26	Chouser	mostly you use normal Java libs for IO
17:27	Chouser	there are a couple helpers, suchs line-seq and contrib's duck-streams, but it's still all built on Java libs.
17:34	dave[csc]	Chouser: I've looked in to duck-streams a bit... I guess I'll just have to stumble through. Thanks though
17:36	octe	whye does this: http://pastebin.ca/1540870 cause an infinite loop?
17:36	octe	i presume, because i get an outofmemory error..
17:38	Chouser	iterate creates an infinite seq
17:38	Chousuke	next returns a seq. :)
17:38	octe	yes. what does next to do a seq when it's trying to return a seq?
17:38	Chouser	all of which is fine, but the repl then tries to print that still infinite seq that 'next' returns
17:39	Chouser	,(next '(1 2 3 4 5))
17:39	clojurebot	(2 3 4 5)
17:39	octe	ah
17:39	clojurebot	Paul Graham is the creator of the other new lisp
17:39	octe	i see
17:39	Chousuke	Clojurebot's sudden interjection made me laugh :P
17:40	Chousuke	apparently "ah" matches graham :P
17:40	octe	i want to create a sequence that generates numbers like for example: 1,3,5,7,9,1,3,5,7 and so on
17:40	octe	i guess a sequence is what i'd want?
17:40	Chouser	,(take 20 (cycle [1 3 5 7 9]))
17:40	clojurebot	(1 3 5 7 9 1 3 5 7 9 1 3 5 7 9 1 3 5 7 9)
17:41	octe	nice
17:42	Chousuke	though remember that seqs are persistent, so if you have a reference to the head, you'll end up keeping all the generated numbers in memory.
17:42	octe	hmm
17:42	dave[csc]	clojurebot: Are you open source?
17:42	clojurebot	source is http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master
17:42	Chousuke	so doing (def foo (cycle [1 2 3])) is not recommended, because then foo will always hold onto the entire seq
17:42	dave[csc]	Outstanding ^_^
17:42	octe	well, that's bad
17:43	Chousuke	octe: but you can do (defn foo [] (cycle [1 2 3])) to have a function that returns a new seq
17:43	Chousuke	then pass that onto whatever needs it.
17:44	Chousuke	eg. (dostuff (foo))
17:44	Chousuke	then the dostuff code can avoid holding onto the entire seq
17:44	octe	cool
17:46	dmix	is there a function to check if a string contains another string or regex?
17:47	Chouser	,(re-find #"needle" "There is a needle in the haystack")
17:47	clojurebot	"needle"
17:47	Chousuke	there are regex functions. most string stuff is directly from java.
17:47	dmix	ty
17:53	krumholt	how can i check if clojure.contrib is loaded correctly?
17:55	danlei	(find-ns 'clojure.contrib) would be an indicator
17:55	danlei	but "loaded correctly" is a rather broad term
17:57	krumholt	ok that returns nil so i guess no it's not loaded
17:57	tomoj	yeah... e.g. I've been using stuff from it fine for weeks, but just realized my clojure.contrib.pprint is broken
17:58	danlei	krumholt: yes. for example: (find-ns 'clojure.contrib.monads) -> nil (require 'clojure.contrib.monads) -> nil (find-ns 'clojure.contrib.monads) -> #<Namespace clojure.contrib.monads>
18:00	dmix	has anyone found not knowing any java to be a significant drawback while using clojure?
18:00	krumholt	danlei, thanks
18:00	krumholt	danlei, no i know it found the jar files and added them to the classpath
18:01	krumholt	no/now
18:01	danlei	krumholt: but beware that it will still return nil for (find-ns 'clojure.contrib) after (require 'clojure.contrib.monads)
18:02	krumholt	danlei, yes i just wanted to check if the additional jar files are added to the class-path. i am trying to use the lightweight java gaming library
18:02	danlei	krumholt: there is something for this in contrib
18:03	krumholt	danlei, really? that would be nice
18:03	danlei	krumholt: clojure.contrib.classpath/classpath.jarfiles
18:03	danlei	krumholt: clojure.contrib.classpath/classpath-jarfiles
18:03	krumholt	danlei, thanks i look into that
18:03	danlei	you're welcome
18:16	cow-orker	dmix: I'd say so.... I don't know Java, what I know of it (the language that is) I don't line. I know common lisp well enough, but I find "learning clojure" (mostly the std java libs) fairly unpleasant. I wish more was wrapped in std libs :-)
18:17	cow-orker	/line/like
18:23	danlei	cow-orker: I somehow feel the same way, but wrapping is seen as against the "embraces the jvm" philosophy
18:28	cow-orker	yes, I guess... although I feel it should be possible to wrap more in std clojure libs and still embrace the JVM (but to a lesser extent the Java language). But thats just me!
18:30	ikitat	is anyone having problems getting clojure-mode + slime + clojure-swank working property in cocoa emacs 23? I can't seem to get my clojure results to echo in the REPL window, though they seem to compile.
18:30	danlei	atm I'm just using a little toolbox in which I collect my own little wrappers. In general I agree with you, but we're a minority. ;) (another thing I really didn't like was dropping nil-punning, but that's another story)
18:30	Chousuke	I think there aren't so many wrappers because it's still extra work.
18:31	Chousuke	and mostly redundant.
18:31	danlei	Chousuke: well, I pointed out a few things which really should be wrapped (for my taste at least) but there was not much positive response to that
18:32	Chousuke	it might be good to include some wrappers in contrib.
18:32	danlei	redundant, yes, if you are willing to "use java". it's more a personal taste thing I guess
18:32	tomoj	danlei: "nil-punning" means nil=='() ?
18:32	Chousuke	then it'd be easier to make a case for moving them to core :P
18:32	danlei	tomoj: (rest []) used to be nil
18:33	tomoj	don't like using next instead?
18:33	Chousuke	I don't miss nil punning, really. the (if (seq foo) ...) idiom is good enough.
18:34	tomoj	is (seq [...]) linear?
18:34	danlei	tomoj: no, because that only holds for restish things, not, e.g. ... map, or things like (filter zero? [1 2 3]). younow have to wrap them in seq. again, maybe it's only taste
18:34	clojurebot	for is not used often enough.
18:34	Chousuke	tomoj: seq is constant time.
18:34	tomoj	Chousuke: great
18:35	tomoj	danlei: ah yeah I see what you mean I think
18:35	danlei	Chousuke: it feels awkward to me. as I said, it's a taste thing, I guess. It just doesn't feel "right" to me (maybe because of CL background)
18:36	danlei	Chousuke: It's not a real show-stopper, just a change I didn't like
18:39	dmix	similar to re-find, is there a function to check if a string contains any values in a collection? (not exact match) for ex "cat in craddle" contains? ["cat" "dog" "bird"] equals true
18:40	dmix	or should I just write one? :)
18:40	Chousuke	hm
18:40	tomoj	dmix: you can use "some" in addition to whatever string thing you're using
18:41	tomoj	e.g.
18:41	tomoj	,(some #(.contains "cat in craddle" %) ["cat" "dog" "bird"])
18:41	clojurebot	true
18:42	Chousuke	hmm
18:43	Chousuke	~def contains?
18:43	Chousuke	Wonder if that will work on strings. /:
18:44	tomoj	if you're looking for indexes, yeah :)
18:44	tomoj	,(contains? "foo" 1)
18:44	clojurebot	true
18:44	Chousuke	right.
18:44	dmix	thanks tomoj
18:44	dmix	why does that bot use tinyurl?
18:44	Chousuke	the urls are long :P
18:45	dmix	ah github, true
18:58	danlei	hm
18:59	danlei	(xxx 'bar '(foo bar baz)) -> true (or bar)?
19:00	Chousuke	(some '#{bar} '[foo bar baz])
19:00	Chousuke	,(some '#{bar} '[foo bar baz])
19:01	clojurebot	bar
19:01	danlei	I see, or (.contains 'bar '[foo bar baz])
19:01	Chousuke	yeah.
19:01	danlei	so, thats a good example, where I would add "member" or "find"(taken) to my wrappers
19:02	tomoj	confused... you can't call .contains on a symbol
19:02	danlei	and that's pretty close to what I discussed a while ago. such things, in my opinion, should be in core, or at least contrib
19:03	danlei	tomoj: oh, you're right, sorry
19:03	danlei	tomoj: thaught it'd work
19:03	danlei	I mean, that's not something exotic
19:03	tomoj	I still don't understand what you're looking for
19:04	danlei	cl's MEMBER or FIND
19:04	danlei	(find 'foo '(foo)) -> foo
19:04	danlei	(member 'foo '(foo bar)) -> (foo bar)
19:05	danlei	Just wanted to show an example of (to my feelings) missing things in the core
19:05	clojurebot	show is clojure.contrib.repl-utils/show
19:05	tomoj	ah, I think I see what you mean
19:05	tomoj	contains? promises to be constant/log time so it can't do that
19:05	tomoj	you want a function that wraps the "some" idiom?
19:06	danlei	some is 2 steps more general
19:07	danlei	and it doesn't feel nice to have (some #{bla} '[bla]) to me
19:07	danlei	*just have
19:07	tomoj	(defn find-member [coll x] (some #{x} coll))
19:07	tomoj	:)
19:07	tomoj	but yeah I see what you mean
19:07	danlei	if I looked for this functionality, the first thing I would look for would be someting like find, or member
19:07	Chousuke	,(drop-while (complement '#{bar}) '(foo bar zonk)) the member equivalent is a bit less nice.
19:07	clojurebot	(bar zonk)
19:08	danlei	oh, thanks, but that I could have done myself
19:08	danlei	It's not about member specifically
19:08	Chousuke	using sets is a clojure idiom though so I think teaching people to use them is better than introducing a function for it. :)
19:08	tomoj	well, hmm
19:08	danlei	It's just that I often have to search java documentation on some classes for things I just except in a languages core
19:08	danlei	that's what I wanted to point out
19:09	danlei	maybe it was not the best example
19:09	tomoj	,(.contains '[foo bar] 'foo)
19:09	clojurebot	true
19:09	danlei	hehe
19:09	tomoj	oh, but that's boolean
19:09	danlei	yes, but it's ok
19:09	Chousuke	danlei: well, that's half-intended for clojure.
19:09	danlei	Chousuke: yes, I know
19:09	danlei	Chousuke: I'm always free to write my own toolbox of wrappers (and I do so)
19:10	danlei	but somehow it just ... sometimes really gets on my nervers ;)
19:10	danlei	*nerves
19:10	Chousuke	It might be possible to get these things into core through contrib though.
19:10	Chousuke	I doubt anyone would object to some more utility functions in contrib.
19:10	clojurebot	functions are maps
19:11	danlei	and, what's really bad about that: In some point in time, no other clojure user will understand my code, without knowing my whole wrapper toolbox
19:11	danlei	that's why I'd like this stuff at least in contrib
19:11	Chousuke	well, all you need is a CA and then a post to the mailing list for discussion :/
19:11	danlei	Chousuke: well, I'd surely appreciate that
19:11	danlei	ah, yes. that CA thingie
19:11	danlei	should maybe really do that
19:12	danlei	once I had some snipped I felt belonged in core
19:12	danlei	but thought it wasn't worth the CA
19:12	Chousuke	It doesn't take much, really.
19:12	danlei	s/core/contrib
19:12	danlei	yes, It's just a minor inconvenience, you're right
19:13	danlei	If I understand you right, even for contrib I'd have to "pass" some kind of "vote"(?)
19:13	danlei	I mean, you don't get an CA and can add what you want, can you?
19:14	Chousuke	danlei: well, yeah. contrib is not a dump for random things.
19:14	danlei	sure, but how exactly does it work?
19:14	Chousuke	but if enough people show interest in your library I think it'll get in. :P
19:14	danlei	so it's not clearly defined how you get things in?
19:14	Chousuke	I guess that's right.
19:14	danlei	hm, I see
19:15	Chousuke	you just need one of the committers to support you I guess.
19:15	danlei	you have that CA?
19:15	danlei	*done
19:15	Chousuke	yeah, though I'm not a contrib committere
19:15	Chousuke	-e
19:17	danlei	http://paste.lisp.org/+1UAQ is what I had in mind
19:17	danlei	I think there's nothing like that in contrib right now (last time I checked)
19:17	danlei	nothing earth-shaking but I sometimes have use for it
19:17	Chousuke	that would do fine in repl-utils I think.
19:18	danlei	I think I should just do that CA and try to convince at the list about my thoughts about wrappers
19:18	danlei	maybe some people would support that idea
19:19	tomoj	I get worried about old mappings left in my namespace when using slime
19:19	tomoj	that would be neat
19:19	Chousuke	I've been bitten by that a few times :P
19:19	Chousuke	once I had all the needed functions in my code, but in the wrong order :)
19:19	tomoj	jeez I hadn't even thought about order
19:20	Chousuke	then it broke when I "rebooted"
19:20	dmix	tomoj, in the code earlier (some #(.contains "cat in craddle" %) ["cat" "dog" "bird"]) is there a way to return which value it was? (cat) or is it limited to true/false because of some
19:20	tomoj	it's limited to true/false because of .contains
19:20	danlei	there we go :) cl:find is needed ;)
19:20	tomoj	but you could use find-first from contrib
19:21	dmix	thanks ill try it
19:21	tomoj	,find-first
19:21	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: find-first in this context
19:22	Chousuke	(doc find-first)
19:22	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.seq-utils/find-first;[[pred coll]]; Returns the first item of coll for which (pred item) returns logical true. Consumes sequences up to the first match, will consume the entire sequence and return nil if no match is found."
19:22	tomoj	,clojure.contrib.seq-utils/find-first
19:22	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.seq-utils
19:22	tomoj	:(
19:22	danlei	ah, and there it is ;)
19:22	tomoj	he has the docs but can't use the functions?
19:22	Chousuke	clojurebot's doc is a bit specia.
19:22	Chousuke	l
19:23	Chousuke	,(refer 'clojure.contrib.seq-utils)
19:23	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No namespace: clojure.contrib.seq-utils
19:23	danlei	,(require 'clojure.contrib.seq-utils)
19:23	clojurebot	nil
19:23	danlei	,(refer 'clojure.contrib.seq-utils)
19:23	clojurebot	nil
19:24	tomoj	,(find-first #(.contains "cat craddle" %) ["foo" "cat"])
19:24	clojurebot	"cat"
19:24	dmix	yeah it works :)
19:24	danlei	:)
19:24	tomoj	weird.. is clojurebot polluted with seq-utils now until it dies?
19:24	Chousuke	yes :P
19:25	Chousuke	though I suppose hiredman can always unmap the stuff.
19:25	tomoj	oh, there's a contains? for strings in str-utils2
19:26	tomoj	heh, http://is.gd/2vuhh
19:26	tomoj	(contains? s substr) == (.contains s substr)
19:26	tomoj	apparently someone agrees with you, danlei :)
19:27	danlei	:)
19:27	tomoj	also, there's includes? in seq-utils too
19:27	tomoj	,(includes? '(foo bar baz) 'bar)
19:27	clojurebot	true
19:28	Chousuke	hmm :/
19:28	danlei	bit confusing that they all share names. should maybe be generic functions, or someting
19:28	tomoj	wonder why it uses (fn [y] (= y x)) instead of #{y}
19:29	lowlycoder	since Thread/stop is being deprecated, what's the clojure way to stop a thread?
19:29	lowlycoder	to have the thread share a global ref with the main program? to use agents? ....
19:30	tomoj	ants.clj uses agents that check a global var
19:33	ikitat	uhg. Does anyone know why I can't get slime-repl clojure to display anything useful?
19:34	ikitat	it's just the user> prompt
19:34	ikitat	(+ 1 1) C-c C-c
19:34	ikitat	minibuffer says compilation finished 0 errors 0 warnings 0 notes
19:34	ikitat	REPL doesn't blink
19:34	danlei	you mean, (+ 1 1) <return> doesn't evaluate and print the result?
19:35	ikitat	danlei, I'm using clojure-mode in emacs and I'm C-c C-c'ing in a s ource file
19:35	ikitat	but it doesn't show the result in the repl
19:35	tomoj	the repl doesn't do anything when you compile..
19:35	ikitat	how can I get the code to show up in the repl?
19:36	tomoj	go over there and type it in :)
19:36	danlei	try C-c C-c'ing a defn and use it in the repl
19:36	tomoj	you can see the result in the minibuffer with C-x C-e
19:36	ikitat	heh.. oh, I swore I've seen videos of people just executing in the repl from their clojure buffer
19:36	tomoj	or C-M-x
19:36	ikitat	and though.. danm, that's cool
19:37	tomoj	I saw a trick someone had for that somewhere
19:37	tomoj	but afaik it's not built-in
19:37	ikitat	actually, I think it even did that for me in aqua emacs, but I've been stuck since going to cocoa emacs 23
19:38	tomoj	ikitat: http://bc.tech.coop/blog/070424.html
19:38	tomoj	that's old, maybe slime has something for it now
19:38	tomoj	I'm in aquamacs emacs, and it doesn't do that
19:39	tomoj	(by default)
19:41	tomoj	I've never really noticed because I don't usually have top-level forms in source files for which I want to see the result
19:41	danlei	so, no member in seq-utils. should get that CA and add something like (defn member [thing coll] (drop-while #(not= 'bar %) coll)) in there
19:41	Anniepoo	Is there a way I can run a clojure script from within a java program?
19:41	tomoj	I'd vote for a less CL-like name :)
19:42	tomoj	"member" doesn't really make sense to me as a name for that function
19:42	Chousuke	ikitat: the result of a C-x C-e is shown in the minibuffer.
19:42	ikitat	heh.. ok, you are all right, I must have been seeing things... :)
19:42	danlei	well, ... it looks for a member, but is restartable. what would you prefer?
19:42	ikitat	I just checked it in aquamacs again
19:43	ikitat	overall I'm pretty excited about emacs, I've used vim for over 10 years... I was probably hallucinating from excitement ;)
19:43	Chousuke	heh :P
19:43	danlei	btw, that's just a toy member function, it should also take test and key keyword args, to come close
19:43	danlei	:)
19:43	Chousuke	I used viper some when I went to emacs, but it doesn't play well with paredit so I'm using it less and less...
19:43	danlei	ikitat: was the same for me :)
19:44	danlei	btw, chosuke: you know a convenient way in paredit to "close all sexps"?
19:44	Chousuke	hmm :/
19:44	Chousuke	no.
19:45	tomoj	danlei: good point, I can't think of another name
19:45	ikitat	Chousuke, yeah, viper just doesn't cut it... I'd rather go cold turkey.. though it's hard I have a lot of built up vim knowledge. I'm still trying to pick up the things that I absolutely need to do a lot
19:45	Chousuke	the sexps should always stay closed though. But that's not what often happens
19:46	ikitat	remapping my brain is harder than it used to be
19:46	Anniepoo	danlei continues to rock for having gotten noobie me up on slime, swank, paredit, emacs, etc stack the other nite
19:46	danlei	Chousuke: well, in my case it's more that I used to close-all-sexp's before I started using paredit, I'm just looking for a convenient way to get to the end of a form quickly
19:46	danlei	Anniepoo: you're welcome
19:47	danlei	C-M-e would be a candidate, I guess
19:47	danlei	but it's not quite the same
19:48	danlei	Anniepoo: you like it?
19:48	Chousuke	danlei: end of a form? ctrl-k?
19:48	danlei	Chousuke: bound to paredit-kill for me, what is it bound to normally?
19:49	Chousuke	isn't paredit-kill what you want?
19:49	Chousuke	it kills whatever comes after point, but keeps the sexp structure intact.
19:49	danlei	no, I want to move point after the form I just entered
19:49	Anniepoo	so far I'm still in the 'I get all tangled up and eventually ctrl-alt-del kill it' stage
19:49	danlei	s/after/behind/
19:49	Chousuke	danlei: ah, I misunderstood you then. hmm.
19:49	Anniepoo	but am still willing to believe some day I'll love it
19:49	danlei	Anniepoo: :)
19:50	Chousuke	danlei: actually, it looks like ) should do that :/
19:50	danlei	Anniepoo: It'll take some time, but (for me) it was worth it
19:50	danlei	Chousuke: yes, what I want is like ) but it goes behind ALL closed parens
19:51	Chousuke	no idea then :/
19:51	Anniepoo	ok
19:51	danlei	Chousuke: atm I'm doing something like end-of-defun paredit-forward
19:51	danlei	Chousuke: thanks anyway
19:52	Anniepoo	I'm skeptical now because I don't see any ez way of navigating from file to file within it
19:52	Chousuke	Anniepoo: within emacs?
19:52	danlei	Anniepoo: C-x b in ido-mode is quite comfortable
19:52	Anniepoo	yes
19:52	danlei	Anniepoo: and did you check out M-.?
19:53	Anniepoo	no, but if it's got those tools, cool
19:53	danlei	M-. and M-, actually
19:53	Anniepoo	8cD
19:53	danlei	for quick buffer switching i recommend ido-mode
19:53	Anniepoo	ok
19:53	danlei	also helps for opening files
19:53	Chousuke	heh, yeah
19:53	danlei	it's build in, just try M-x ido-mode and switch buffers or open a file
19:54	tomoj	(or get the starter kit)
19:54	Anniepoo	I'm going to have to find a day and write some totally toy project where I can just focus on learning the dev env
19:54	Chousuke	most of the time I just type some part of the file name and emacs somehow magically finds it for me.
19:54	Chousuke	even if the path part is completely wrong.
19:54	danlei	that's what I do, too ;)
19:54	tomoj	sometimes I hate that
19:54	tomoj	I try to make a new file and emacs says, "hey, are you looking for this file in that other project?"
19:55	danlei	tomoj: maybe you don't like the fuzzy part of it
19:55	danlei	tomoj: ah :)
19:55	Anniepoo	question about JVM's - I'm running a java program, I want to execute some clojure within it and have them share the JVM
19:55	Chousuke	tomoj: heh, you don't type fast enough ;)
19:55	danlei	tomoj: you have to be quicker :)
19:55	danlei	pretty sure you can tweak the time, though
19:56	tomoj	I usually just switch to regular old find-file at that poit
19:56	Anniepoo	if I go clojure.main("path/to/myclojure.clj") will that be in the same jvm?
19:56	danlei	to make sure everyone knows about it: try C-SPACE to narrow search in ido, really convenient
19:57	Chousuke	hm, what an unconvenient keybinding
19:57	danlei	why unconvenient?
19:57	Chousuke	I have cmd acting as control and cmd-space is captured by OS X before emacs gets to it :P
19:57	danlei	aaah
19:58	danlei	that search function, innit?
19:58	tomoj	caps lock ctrl ftw
19:58	Anniepoo	not to mention that it's what initiates autocomplete in IntelliJ
19:58	Chousuke	danlei: it changes the input method for me, actually.
19:58	danlei	Chousuke: ah, ok
19:58	Chousuke	tomoj: I decided that caps lock is better as meta.
19:59	lowlycoder	how does send and send-off differ? send uses from a thread pool, wheras send-off creates its own thread?
19:59	danlei	(meta-right shift)
19:59	tomoj	lowlycoder: exactly
19:59	danlei	*left
19:59	lowlycoder	tomoj: in practice, why do I care about this difference?
19:59	tomoj	if the function you're sending blocks, you could lock up all the threads in the thread pool
20:00	dmix	how come when you press up in repl (in osx term) it doesnt bring up the last command?
20:00	dmix	I seem to do a lot of copy/pasting
20:01	tomoj	you probably need JLine or something
20:01	ikitat	dmix you need to set up rlwrap or jline
20:01	tomoj	(but really, switch to a real repl :))
20:01	dmix	real repl, like in emacs?
20:01	tomoj	yeah
20:02	dmix	i wad putting that off :)
20:02	dmix	i spend too much time playing around with my .emac file
20:02	ikitat	tomoj how do you pull up recent expressions in the repl on emacs?
20:02	tomoj	M-p/M-n
20:03	tomoj	and if you type a bit and hit M-p, it'll search for recent expressions starting with that
20:03	lowlycoder	is there a way in clojure to break on currenct function call w/o killing clojure; C-c tends to kill clojure as well
20:04	ikitat	hrm... is there a way to get it to do the search without anchoring it with a ^?
20:04	ikitat	eg
20:04	ikitat	user> (factorial 10)
20:04	ikitat	user> facM-p
20:04	ikitat	that doesn't find the previous expression
20:06	tomoj	hmm
20:06	tomoj	M-r lets you type in a regexp
20:07	tomoj	and then you can use M-p/M-n to navigate the results
20:07	ikitat	that works :)
20:09	tomoj	I think you'd have to write a new function to use the current input as the regexp
20:10	lowlycoder	(def blah (agent 3)) (send blah (fn [val] 4))
20:10	lowlycoder	(await blah) (println @blah)
20:10	lowlycoder	why do I get an error on the await?
20:12	tomoj	what's the error?
20:13	krumholt	how should i do an infinite loop in clojure?
20:16	tomoj	(while true ..) is an infinite loop
20:16	Chousuke	there is a while macro
20:16	Chousuke	you'll need some kind of a side-effect to break out of it, obviously.
20:16	Chousuke	an atom or a ref
20:16	lowlycoder	anyone actually have an example of how to use 'await' in clojure?
20:16	tomoj	lowlycoder: what's the error?
20:17	lowlycoder	java.lang.IllegalStateException: await in transaction
20:17	lowlycoder	(def blah (agent 3)) (send blah (fn [val] 4))
20:17	lowlycoder	(await 100 blah) (println @blah)
20:17	lowlycoder	is the code ... i don't see where the transation is
20:17	tomoj	what is "(await 100 blah)" ?
20:18	Chousuke	(doc await)
20:18	clojurebot	"([& agents]); Blocks the current thread (indefinitely!) until all actions dispatched thus far, from this thread or agent, to the agent(s) have occurred."
20:18	lowlycoder	err, sorry, let's retry this:
20:18	lowlycoder	(def blah (agent 3)) (send blah (fn [val] 4))
20:18	lowlycoder	(await blah) (println @blah)
20:18	lowlycoder	gives me: java.lang.IllegalStateException: await in transaction
20:19	tomoj	works fine for me
20:19	tomoj	you're doing that at the repl?
20:19	Chousuke	are you sure it's not in a dosync block? :/
20:20	lowlycoder	~/tmp:$ cat t3.clj
20:20	lowlycoder	(ns t3) (def blah (agent 3)) (send blah (fn [val] 4)) (await blah)
20:20	clojurebot	No entiendo
20:20	lowlycoder	user=> (use :reload-all 't3)
20:20	lowlycoder	java.lang.IllegalStateException: await in transaction (t3.clj:0)
20:22	tomoj	~def use
20:23	lowlycoder	ah, the problem is that (use ...) is in a transaction?
20:24	tomoj	doesn't appear to be to me
20:24	tomoj	but that's what I guess
20:24	tomoj	s/guess/guessed/
20:25	tomoj	but what you're doing looks strange to me anyway
20:26	lowlycoder	what i' doing is pointless; just trying to learn how agent works
20:26	tomoj	try putting it in a function and use then call the function
20:27	tomoj	oh, refer calls out to java stuff looks like, maybe the transaction is in there
20:35	lowlycoder	eturns nil if returning due to timeout, non-nil otherwise.
20:35	lowlycoder	so is returning 'false' fair game for this function?
20:37	tomoj	I think it's safe to assume "non-nil" means truthy
20:37	lowlycoder	tomoj: i'm getting false ... somehow
20:38	tomoj	weird
20:38	tomoj	are you awaiting-for your send there that just replaces it with 4?
20:38	lowlycoder	yes
20:38	lowlycoder	here, let me get a complete demo
20:40	lowlycoder	(ns t3) (def blah (agent 3)) (send blah (fn [val] 4))
20:40	lowlycoder	(defn mytest [] (println (await-for 0 blah)) (println @blah))
20:40	lowlycoder	user=> (mytest)
20:40	lowlycoder	false
20:40	lowlycoder	4
20:40	lowlycoder	nil
20:40	lowlycoder	the false is surprising :-)
20:40	tomoj	well.. why are you awaiting for 0ms ??
20:40	lowlycoder	because i want to just check if it's ready
20:41	lowlycoder	if it's ready, great; if not, i want it to return immediately
20:42	tomoj	well, await-for 1 then I guess
20:43	tomoj	the docs are wrong there, I think
20:43	tomoj	await-for returns _false_ if it times out
20:44	tomoj	otherwise it returns true
20:44	tomoj	but (await-for 0 ...) always times out
20:45	lowlycoder	lthat's too bad
20:45	lowlycoder	in erlang, the wait for 0 seconds is a non-wating way to check "is there data?"
20:46	Chouser	an agent always has data, doesn't it? though it can be nil
20:46	Chouser	just deref the agent to instantly see what its value is
20:47	tomoj	I think lowlycoder wants to get the data only if it's been updated
20:48	tomoj	but not sleep (even for 1ms) if it hasn't
20:48	Chouser	yes, so never sleep, just fetch the value, right?
20:49	tomoj	but then you get a value back even if the send-off hasn't completed
20:50	lowlycoder	http://paste.lisp.org/+1UAU <-- why does this continue to print out true 4
20:50	tomoj	I think it's an imaginary problem :)
20:51	lowlycoder	i was under the impressession that @ or deref would 'consume' a value ... if not; waht's the point of await?
20:51	tomoj	consume??
20:52	Chouser	no, an agent hold a value. That's what it does.
20:52	tomoj	deref doesn't change anything, that would break clojure
20:52	Chouser	it always has exactly one current value
20:52	lowlycoder	i'm completely misunderstanding agents
20:52	tomoj	send says "hey agent, use this function to update your value"
20:53	tomoj	await says "wait until the agent's done doing that"
20:53	lowlycoder	yeah; this looks very different from mailboxes
20:53	clojurebot	this is not a bug
20:54	tomoj	agents are not actors
20:54	Chouser	once upon a time I think Clojure called them actors, but rhickey changed it to help reduce the expectation that they would behave like erlang actors.
20:56	rhickey	Chouser: they were never called actors once implemented
20:57	Chouser	renamed Actor to IRef Dec 2 16:17:12 2007 -- That's just the interface then?
20:58	lowlycoder	rhickey: why aren't there continuations in clojure? not caputing java stack frames i understand, but being able t have continuations for just clojure code seems feasible
20:59	Chouser	lowlycoder: Someone wrote some macro stuff to do something like continuations for Clojure code.
21:00	lowlycoder	Chouser: have a link? :-)
21:00	lowlycoder	i would just write all my code in continuation passing style, ... but clojure doesnt have tail call optimiation either :-)
21:00	rhickey	Chouser: no one was supposed to use them prior to 1203/2007 :)
21:01	rhickey	12/03
21:01	rhickey	lowlycoder: when/if the JVM gets continuations Clojure will too, not before
21:02	Chouser	lowlycoder: I haven't looked at this beyond the description: http://github.com/swannodette/clj-cont/
21:02	lowlycoder	are trampolines expensive?
21:12	rhickey	ooh, much better group search via: http://groups.google.com/advanced_search?q=&
21:12	rhickey	select google groups radio button and specify clojure as the group
21:13	Chouser	even message id. nice.
21:13	cark	chhouser : after much thinging about this database ocnnection thing, i'll go with neither solution, agents instead of refs, and a blocking queue to make these actors
21:14	Chouser	cark: ok, that sounds sane.
21:14	cark	the side effect the clue
21:14	cark	was the clue
21:14	Chouser	ok, now 'for' passes all tests.
21:19	Chouser	huh, the timing is all over the place. but the average for chunked for is definitely better.
21:20	rhickey	Chouser: cool!
21:33	Chouser	seriously subsequent runs after plenty of warm up can still vary but about 2x
21:39	Chouser	ok, chunked concat and for are at http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/1