#clojure – 2009-02-03

2009-02-03

00:39	durka42	so -- what is a "logical collection"?
00:39	durka42	is it different from "a seq or nil"
00:40	durka42	or is it just a duck that promises to turn into a seq or nil when you call seq on it
00:55	gordongecko	could a reader macro allow something like ([1][1,2,3]) -> 2
00:55	gordongecko	could a reader macro allow something like (#[1][1,2,3]) -> 2
00:55	gordongecko	could a reader macro allow something like (#[1:3][1,2,3,4,5]) -> [2,3]
00:58	durka42	no, probably, and probably
00:58	durka42	but clojure doesn't have reader macros
00:59	gordongecko	is there a slice function?
00:59	durka42	subvec
00:59	durka42	(doc subvec)
00:59	clojurebot	Returns a persistent vector of the items in vector from start (inclusive) to end (exclusive). If end is not supplied, defaults to (count vector). This operation is O(1) and very fast, as the resulting vector shares structure with the original and no trimming is done.; arglists ([v start] [v start end])
01:00	durka42	,(subvec [1 2 3 4 5] 2 3)
01:00	clojurebot	[3]
01:00	durka42	,(subvec [1 2 3 4 5] 1 3)
01:00	clojurebot	[2 3]
01:00	durka42	also
01:00	durka42	,(range 5)
01:00	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4)
01:00	durka42	,(range 3 700 50)
01:00	clojurebot	(3 53 103 153 203 253 303 353 403 453 503 553 603 653)
01:15	hiredman	,(use '(clojure.contrib.repl-utils))
01:15	clojurebot	nil
01:15	hiredman	,show
01:15	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: show in this context
01:15	hiredman	,(use 'clojure.contrib.repl-utils)
01:15	clojurebot	nil
01:15	hiredman	,show
01:16	clojurebot	#<repl_utils$show__1120 clojure.contrib.repl_utils$show__1120@688954>
01:16	hiredman	,(source for)
01:16	clojurebot	Source not found
01:16	hiredman	:(
01:18	durka42	,(source subvec)
01:18	clojurebot	Source not found
01:18	durka42	it does that if you've updated clojure.jar out from under the running program
01:19	hiredman	hmm
01:19	hiredman	I have not
01:19	durka42	hmm
01:19	durka42	security crap preventing it from opening files?
01:19	hiredman	ah
01:19	hiredman	Yes
01:20	durka42	,(File. "/")
01:20	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: File
01:20	durka42	,(java.io.File. "/")
01:20	clojurebot	#<File />
01:21	durka42	,(.listFiles (File. "/"))
01:21	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: File
01:21	durka42	,(.listFiles (java.io.File. "/"))
01:21	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.io.FilePermission / read)
01:21	durka42	good
01:24	hiredman	hmmm
01:24	hiredman	the sandbox should really be using java.util.concurrent.Executors
01:29	gordongecko	im gonna sin
01:30	durka42	are you asking forgiveness? :p
01:36	gordongecko	im gonna go !
01:36	gordongecko	for-loops naturally encourage sideeffects
01:36	gordongecko	im tryong to translate gaussjordan elimination from python to clojure
01:38	hiredman	,(doc dotimes)
01:38	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); bindings => name n Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with name bound to integers from 0 through n-1."
01:38	hiredman	,(doc doseq)
01:38	clojurebot	"([seq-exprs & body]); Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with bindings and filtering as provided by \"for\". Does not retain the head of the sequence. Returns nil."
02:25	lisppaste8	gekko pasted "gauss jordan elimination" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74770
02:25	gordongecko	anyone could take a look at that and point me to the right direction? this is typical for the problems i have with functional langs
02:26	gordongecko	it uses a lot of for loops at state and it alwyas becomes so messy when doing in a pure way
02:43	Lau_of_DK	Good morning everyone
02:48	knapr	how do you nest loop/recur? does recur always recur to the closest loop? there is no magic there?
02:49	Lau_of_DK	I believe it always recurs to the closet loop
02:50	hiredman	knapr: recur always recurs to the closest frame
02:50	hiredman	which maybe a loop or a fn
02:50	hiredman	if you use a macro that makes fns around statements this can lead to unpredictable results
02:52	knapr	is there no function-global def?
02:52	hiredman	huh?
02:53	Lau_of_DK	def is global
02:53	knapr	i want to use def inside a function, can prevent that variable form becoming global to the program?
02:53	hiredman	nope
02:53	hiredman	def != schemes define
02:54	hiredman	you can sometimes emulate that behaviour with let
02:57	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: He left before you answered :)
02:57	hiredman	so he did
02:57	Lau_of_DK	For local-scope defs he should probably use defn- from contrib
02:57	hiredman	erm
02:58	gordongecko	i thought defn- was in core
02:58	hiredman	defn- is not from contrib
02:58	Lau_of_DK	Fair enough, but you get the picture
02:58	Lau_of_DK	I think defn- originated from contrib
02:59	hiredman	defn- is not local
02:59	hiredman	it is private
02:59	Lau_of_DK	oh, thats not quite the same
02:59	gordongecko	yes
02:59	Lau_of_DK	Then his option is using bindings ?
02:59	hiredman	nah
02:59	hiredman	let
03:00	hiredman	and the fn in defn closes over what is bound with let
03:01	Lau_of_DK	Ok, I see that binding is primarily for redefining something which is already bound to a value
03:01	hiredman	...
03:03	hiredman	,(.codePointAt "..." 0)
03:03	clojurebot	8230
03:03	hiredman	,(int \...)
03:03	clojurebot	8230
03:06	hiredman	,(short \...)
03:06	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
03:06	hiredman	hmmm
03:45	AWizzArd	Hi
03:48	Lau_of_DK	Hey AWA
03:53	AWizzArd	clojurebot: max people
03:53	clojurebot	max people is 137
03:53	AWizzArd	uh :-)
03:53	AWizzArd	hi cg
03:53	cgrand	hi!
04:26	newb12345	how good is clojure for real world computing? stuff like parsing html files
04:33	cgrand	newb12345: at least as good as Java :-) for parsing html you can use TagSoup for example. In the mailing list, there are examples of integrating TagSoup + zippers
04:36	newb12345	zippers? as in haskell/functional zippers?
04:38	cgrand	I'm not an Haskeller, but zippers as in functional artifacts to navigate/mutate trees
04:38	newb12345	whoa
04:39	newb12345	so clojure is elegant like lisp, but practical like java?
04:39	AWizzArd	indeed
04:39	newb12345	to play devil's advocate
04:40	newb12345	why hasn't it taken over the world yet?
04:40	AWizzArd	because Clojure 1.0 is not published.
04:40	AWizzArd	In October there were around 70-80 people in this room.
04:40	AWizzArd	clojurebot: max people
04:40	clojurebot	max people is 137
04:40	newb12345	how do i get the size of a channel?
04:40	AWizzArd	with about 750 members in the Google Group
04:40	metaperl	when using 'ant' to build Clojure, what advantage does that give you? I dont have much java background.
04:41	AWizzArd	newb12345: depends on your irc-client
04:41	newb12345	for yours, what is it?
04:41	newb12345	i'll just try it in mine
04:42	AWizzArd	metaperl: in a project of 619 files you won't need to type 619x javac, but only one time ant.
04:42	AWizzArd	And don't forget dependencies.
04:42	metaperl	does it make it easier to use clojure from the command line?
04:43	metaperl	right now, I downloaded clojure to a temp directory and run the REPL from there... I'm wondering if using 'ant' will perform a 'system install' and make clojure available from any directory.
04:44	AWizzArd	metaperl: http://www.google.com/search?q=ant
04:44	cgrand	metaperl: ant is make for java
04:48	Lau_of_DK	<newb12345> how good is clojure for real world computing? stuff like parsing html files
04:48	Lau_of_DK	This is a classic quote :)
04:48	Lau_of_DK	cgrand: Why are you always pushing SoupBox, did you make it?
04:50	cgrand	no Mr Lau, it's just my reflex answer to "how to parse html in javaland"
04:51	cgrand	and its author created this irc channel :-)
04:53	Lau_of_DK	uuuh :)
04:54	Lau_of_DK	Still funny: real world computing = parsing html
04:55	gregh	you never know when you're going to be walking down the street and trip over some unclosed tags!
04:55	Lau_of_DK	thats certainly true
04:55	Lau_of_DK	cgrand: And you primarily a Git man, or an Svn girl ?
04:58	cgrand	Lau_of_DK: I'm agnostic
04:59	Lau_of_DK	Thats odd
05:01	cgrand	plus, I don't answer sexist questions :-)
05:02	Lau_of_DK	oh man, you really are french!
05:03	cgrand	warum?
05:03	Lau_of_DK	hehe, Im not german. It just matched my stereotype of a french person, react that way to a git/svn joke :)
05:07	cgrand	Seriously, having to work crossplatform, I tried hg two years ago but it's quite recently that I tried git again
05:22	Lau_of_DK	cgrand: Git is pretty well supported for Windows isnt it?
05:23	cgrand	Lau_of_DK: except git-svn, it seems to work well
05:24	cgrand	(but cygwin/git-svn works ok)
05:30	Lau_of_DK	Ah ok
05:39	Lau_of_DK	cgrand: But to me its primarily a business case: Which gives minimal overhead without loss of relevant features? Git was a clear winner, and since our migration at the company, the feedback has been 100% positive
05:41	gordongecko	is there a function to update a vector at a specific pos?
05:42	cgrand	gordongecko: assoc
05:42	gordongecko	ah assoc works there too
06:00	lisppaste8	gordongecko pasted "matrix update" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74776
06:00	gordongecko	can ^^ be improved to something shorter and more clear?
06:02	Chousuke	is your matrix a vector of vectors?
06:02	Chousuke	if so, use assoc-in
06:03	Chousuke	,(assoc-in [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]] [1 1] :a)
06:03	clojurebot	[[1 2 3] [4 :a 6]]
06:03	gordongecko	ok
06:03	gordongecko	is assoc O(1) ? so if i want to make a matrix it is efficient to sue evctirs?
06:03	gordongecko	vectors
06:03	Chousuke	the performance of assoc depends on the data structure.
06:04	Chousuke	vectors might not be the most efficient matrix representation, at least for large matrices.
06:05	gordongecko	wellf or sparse amtrices i guess id use a hashmap but for dense ones?
06:05	Chousuke	assoc is not O(1) for vectors, but close enough.
06:06	Chousuke	log32 or something. :)
06:08	gordongecko	how would you do the equivalent of: a={} for r in rows: for c in cols: a.update{(r,c): 0} ?
06:09	gordongecko	ie nest for loops and accumulate to a variable that is global in the function
06:12	Chousuke	you want to zero the array? :/
06:13	Chousuke	that doesn't really make sense in clojure, unless you're dealing with mutable data.
06:16	Chousuke	gordongecko: you could simply define A to be full of zeros to begin with, for example, (vec (take rows (repeat (vec (take cols (repeat 0))))))
06:17	AWizzArd	in Clojure in principle evrything are constants
06:18	Chousuke	compared to traditional languages, I suppose.
06:18	AWizzArd	yes
06:18	Chousuke	in clojure a constant would be a name that always is bound to the same value.
06:19	AWizzArd	you mean that the value is bound to the name?
06:19	Chousuke	or that.
06:19	AWizzArd	;-)
06:21	Chousuke	gordongecko: it's important to keep in mind that once you have a value, there's no way to change it, if it is one of the clojure basic data types (and not some java stuff). You can only create new values based on the old one.
06:34	knapr	i want to generate all pair-combinations of 2 ranges, like (range 1) (range 1), should gen [0 0] [0 1] [1 0] [1 1]
06:37	AWizzArd	knapr: (for [a (range 2) b (range 2)] ...)
06:38	AWizzArd	(for [a (range 2) b (range 2)] [a b])
06:45	knapr	can you map over a hashmap somehow?
06:45	knapr	do soemthing to eahc value i mean
06:48	Chousuke	yeah
06:48	Chousuke	just use map
06:48	Chousuke	each key-value pair will be given to your function as a [k v] vector
06:50	AWizzArd	knapr: you can map over (vals your-map)
06:51	Chousuke	,(apply hash-map (map (fn [[k v]] [v k]) {:a 1 :b 2}))
06:51	clojurebot	{[1 :a] [2 :b]}
06:51	Chousuke	hm
06:51	Chousuke	not quite :/
06:51	AWizzArd	(map #(+ 7 %) (vals my-mep))
06:52	Cark	awizzard : been reading cll again, i think trampolines are just perfect, the parser combinator think mentioned by JH makes no sense, the user of your library would of course need to adapt his programing style to use trampolines as well
06:52	Chousuke	,(int0 {} (map (fn [[k v]] [v k]) {:a 1 :b 2}))
06:52	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: int0 in this context
06:52	Chousuke	gah
06:52	Chousuke	,(into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [v k]) {:a 1 :b 2}))
06:52	clojurebot	{2 :b, 1 :a}
06:53	AWizzArd	Cark: yes, for nearly (and maybe all) practical cases Trampolines should be enough.
06:58	AWizzArd	newb12345: I use irssi, and for me the command is /names
07:15	gordongecko	but lets say i want to keep some metadata like rows and cols to make some calcs faster, how would you do that? pass that along a s a struct or can you have metadata ona hashmap?
07:16	AWizzArd	you should not put cache data into the metadata
07:17	AWizzArd	instead you can memoize your function
07:17	gordongecko	yes but for a matrix it makes sens e to just pass around the matrix-hashmap and rows and cols
07:17	gordongecko	asa struct
07:17	gordongecko	no?
07:17	Lau_of_DK	gordongecko: I would say so
07:39	gordongecko	does clojure have something like haskells show?
07:40	AWizzArd	gordongecko: (str your-object)
07:40	AWizzArd	(str 10) ==> "10"
07:41	AWizzArd	,(str {"key" 'value})
07:41	clojurebot	"{\"key\" value}"
07:41	gordongecko	how can I map println without nil?
07:42	AWizzArd	gordongecko: don't use map for side-effects. Use (doseq [obj collection] (println obj))
07:43	gordongecko	hmm?
07:43	gordongecko	(doseq println [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]])
07:43	gordongecko	ah
07:44	Lau_of_DK	,(doseq [idx (range 10)] (println idx))
07:44	clojurebot	0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
07:55	clojurebot	svn rev 1248; [lazy] added sequence?
07:56	gordongecko	does clojure have something like haskell's show? so if i have a struct X i can write a function show for it so when you do x int he repl it shows not X but some other version of X, a prettyprinted one?
07:57	AWizzArd	you mean you want your own printed representation of an object?
07:57	durka42	gordongecko: print-method is a multimethod that dispatches on class
08:01	durka42	see Chouser's recent patch: http://clojure.googlecode.com/issues/attachment?aid=3251654005916676481&name=print-iref.patch
08:07	Cark	with the upcoming changes regarding nil punning, would it be safer to use the empty? predicate to test if a collection is empty ?
08:07	Cark	or take the doc advice of using seq instead
08:08	rhickey	Cark: please no! empty? is still defined as (not (seq x)), and the preferred Clojure idiom is still (when (seq coll) ...)
08:09	Cark	thank you rhikey
08:11	Cark	see i have this trie library, and sometimes need to use the data as a seq, using the high order functions and lazy-cons is 10x slower than using loop recur to build a vector
08:11	Cark	actually no, it's 5 times slower
08:11	Cark	but still =/
08:13	rhickey	but if you are a die-hard Schemer or prefer termination conditions first, you can (cond (empty? x) foo :else bar), but not my preference
08:13	rhickey	I am interested in reports of actual nil puns in the field broken by the lazy branch
08:14	AWizzArd	rhickey: so concat now has the role of lazy-cat?
08:14	bakkdoor	hi
08:15	AWizzArd	hey bak
08:15	rhickey	AWizzArd: lazy-cat still exists, because, as a macro it suspended the entire argument expressions, but if those expressions are just other sequence calls, there's no need for lazy-cat, just use concat
08:16	bakkdoor	i'm somehow having a problem with the clojure-contrib.jar. it doesnt show up within my repl in emacs, i mean the namespace doesnt. do i need to tell it somehow to load it? i use jline, have that installed and have the clojure.conf in my home folder as described in the tutorial. i also have the clojure-contrib.jar in ~/.clojure (with my jline.jar) and loading clojure with jline seems to work
08:16	rhickey	user=> (macroexpand '(lazy-cat xs ys zs))
08:16	rhickey	(concat (lazy-seq xs) (lazy-seq ys) (lazy-seq zs))
08:17	AWizzArd	ah okay, so lazy-cat was also adopted to the new lazyness
08:17	rhickey	so if xs ys and zs are already sequence calls, they're already fully lazy and lazy-cat is redundant
08:17	gordongecko	is ther eno function forturning a vector into a hashmap?
08:17	ayrnieu	bakkdoor - (.contains (System/getProperty "java.class.path") "clojure-contrib.jar") ?
08:17	AWizzArd	gordongecko: with keeping all indexes?
08:18	bakkdoor	=> true
08:18	bakkdoor	ayrnieu: => true
08:19	gordongecko	if i have this common idiom in my functions for (defstruct matrix :repr :rows :cols) where i take the repr, do soemthing ot it, then do (struct matrix new-repr (m :repr) (m :cols)), could i abstract that out? with -> perhaps?
08:19	ayrnieu	(use 'clojure.contrib.javadoc) (javadoc String) ?
08:19	bakkdoor	this is my classpath: "/home/bakkdoor/opt/clojure/clojure.jar:/home/bakkdoor/.clojure/clojure-contrib.jar:/home/bakkdoor/.clojure/jline.jar"
08:20	bakkdoor	hm works, opens my browser
08:20	ayrnieu	so what are you trying that doesn't work?
08:20	AWizzArd	gordongecko: if you do this often you could think about having a ref/agent/atom on your structured-map
08:20	bakkdoor	now it also shows the clojure.contrib.javadoc.browser and hell-out when tab-completing
08:21	gordongecko	AWizzArd: well then i make it mutable, thats not what iw ant
08:21	AWizzArd	the map is still immutable
08:21	AWizzArd	only the ref is mutable
08:22	bakkdoor	ayrnieu: i wanted to use clojure.contrib.math.expt.. but after doing (use 'clojure.contrib.math) it now works.. hmm so is there a way to also load the stuff in clojure.contrib to be displayed with tab completion like the clojure.jar stuff is by default?
08:25	ayrnieu	bakkdoor - you could cache tab-completion emacs-side; you could load all of the contrib modules.
08:27	bakkdoor	where would i put this? will it check for a .clojurerc file in my home directory or something where i can put some code i want it always to run when starting?
08:28	ayrnieu	you can have your 'clj' script load ~/.clojurecl if it exists: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages/clojure-svn/clojure-svn/clj
08:28	ayrnieu	~/.clojure.clj , there
08:28	clojurebot	clojure is the bestest programming language available.
08:29	bakkdoor	ah alright, thanks ;)
08:40	clojurebot	svn rev 1249; [lazy] restore step fns in filter/drop
08:42	leafw	is there any clojure contrib in git, officially endorsed
08:42	leafw	kevin oneil's doesn't load.
09:03	cemerick	Good morning, all. I've been away for a while. I was hoping someone could clue me in on the latest "stable" rev in svn (e.g. the lastest prior to any experimental additions rolling in)...?
09:05	ayrnieu	clojurebot: latest
09:05	clojurebot	latest is 1249
09:05	ayrnieu	the eperimental additions are rolling into the lazy branch.
09:07	cemerick	wow, branches in a clojure svn? Shocked, I am! ;-)
09:09	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: Did you get that pic I sent you regarding the trunk ?
09:09	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: no - where?
09:09	cemerick	rhickey: I may have forgotten all of my svn-foo by then. ;-) We moved to git over the holidays, despite all of my anti-git agitations.
09:10	Lau_of_DK	hang on
09:10	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: http://images.nonexiste.net/irc/2008/10/13/git_two.jpg
09:11	danlarkin	Lau_of_DK: I don't get it?
09:11	Lau_of_DK	you dont? Git has no trunk, SVN has everything in trunk...
09:11	danlarkin	oh.... :-/
09:11	ayrnieu	(what you gon' do with all that origin? All that junk inside your origin?)
09:20	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: I take it you dont appreciate that kind of humor?
09:22	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: I don't git it at all
09:22	Raynes	Lol'd.
09:30	clojurebot	svn rev 1250; [lazy] more returns Sequence
09:31	rhickey	http://clojure.org/lazier enhanced - feedback wanted, it is making sense?
09:51	cgrand	rhickey: what is the problem with loop in filter/drop?
09:51	rhickey	cgrand: consumes memory while skipping
09:54	cgrand	rhickey: ah yes, thanks!
09:54	LordOfTheNoobs	Would it be odd for `if' to call `seq' on any `(sequence? x)'? Conditionals would then consume at least one item from any sequence submitted to them, `(when (filter pred coll) foo) would consume coll until pred, etc. That would restore nil punning, no? Testing to see if our collection is populated rather than that we have a lazy collection that is potentially populated seems the better default. Maybe that is just me. (when (seq
09:54	LordOfTheNoobs	(filter pred coll)) foo) seems likely to introduce errors, and is, to me, somewhat unintuitive.
09:55	rhickey	cgrand: I explain the new closed-over clearing at the bottom of: http://clojure.org/lazier
09:56	rhickey	LordOfTheNoobs: adding any overhead to something as primitive as 'if' would be unacceptable
09:58	rhickey	LordOfTheNoobs: also would mess with your ability to distinguish something empty from nothing
09:58	cemerick	rhickey: I just finished a first read/skim of /lazier and /streams. Looks nifty, and I don't have much to add. FWIW, it seems like we're almost to #t and #f for truthiness.
09:59	cemerick	...which I'm mostly neutral about, so it's a wash for me for the most part
10:01	rhickey	cemerick: It may seem so on the surface, but there is still quite a bit of leverage to nil, using whens as seq bodies, when-first et al
10:02	rhickey	cemerick: seq/nil much more useful than #t/#f
10:03	cemerick	rhickey: yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of formal advantages to it. Of course, I'm one of those who like to have termination conditions first, so I do a bunch of (if-not ...) anyway, which I know you hate :-P
10:04	rhickey	cemerick: eah, I much prefer (when something-to-do do-it)
10:04	cemerick	I certainly will miss the current behaviour, just from a syntax/usability perspective. Python introduced me to empty-is-false, and I'll miss it.
10:05	cemerick	rhickey: well, I'm not much of a programmer, so don't pay any attention to me
10:05	rhickey	cemerick: 'empty' is false still for seqs, were you doing much (if (filter foo) ...)?
10:05	ayrnieu	(defn only-for-vecs ":(" ([[]] 0) ([_ & xs] (+ 1 (only-for-vecs xs))))
10:06	Chouser	ayrnieu: trying to do pattern matching?
10:06	cemerick	rhickey: I can't say one way or the other right this minute. I've been away from programming for a solid month, so I can't even remember where I put my keyboard.
10:09	ayrnieu	Chouser - I was trying to show that destructuring isn't seq-agnostic, but that example fails for other reasons.
10:13	ayrnieu	(defmulti length empty?) (defmethod length true [_] 0) (defmethod length false [[_ & xs]] (+ 1 (length xs)))
10:16	Chousuke	ayrnieu: I'd call that abuse of multimethods :P
10:17	Chouser	or clever
10:17	ayrnieu	well, enjoy rewriting your less-robust code when lazy hits :-)
10:18	Chouser	ayrnieu: I'm still not sure what you're trying to show there.
10:18	ayrnieu	how would you write that for a PersistentList?
10:19	Chouser	(length '(a b c)) returns 3 for me on trunk
10:19	Chouser	does it not on lazy?
10:21	ayrnieu	huh. OK, nevermind.
10:27	jkantz	anyone have an example use-case for with-local-vars?
10:29	ayrnieu	http://github.com/search?language=clojure&q=with-local-vars
10:30	cgrand	rhickey: hmm since LazySeq extends AFn can we have named lazy-seqs? (defn cycle[coll] (lazy-seq this (concat coll this))) :-)
10:34	lisppaste8	ayrnieu pasted "named lazy-seq" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74786
10:37	cemerick	Given an class with static members (e.g. an enum), referring to a non-existent member ends up throwing a "No such namespace" error. I understand that the Classname/Membername syntax has to fall back to checking for namespace/var-name, but it seems like if a class with the given name is in scope, an error message should be emitted that assumes that the code was referring to the imported class.
10:37	Chousuke	not just (defn cycle [coll] (lazy-seq (concat coll (cycle coll)))) or something?
10:37	jkantz	so when using with-local-vars are is closing over the local vars disallowed?
10:37	Chousuke	I think rhickey demonstrated something like that earlier.
10:38	Chousuke	I guess the name makes it a bit simpler :/
10:52	rhickey	cgrand: I'm not promising that derivation (from AFn)
10:53	rhickey	just an allocation optimization right now
10:54	LordOfTheNoobs	During a break I switched some personal code ( a parser combinator ) to use the lazy branch. The inability to nil pun isn't much fun in `if-let's and recursive function application through nested lazy sequences. :p
10:57	rhickey	LordOfTheNoobs: any examples of changes you had to make that you could paste?
11:00	jayfields	has anyone use clojure to generate JUnit tests? I can't find anything on the web.
11:00	jayfields	(other than an old edition of Stu's book which has a gen-and-save-class example, but I was looking for something more dynamic)
11:21	gordongecko	how do i throw an exception?
11:21	cooldude127	gordongecko: (throw (Exception. "blah"))
11:22	AWizzArd	It seems gordongecko is about to learn all of Clojure within 1 or 2 days...
11:23	LordOfTheNoobs	rhickey: I was on a break at the time, sorry for the delay. I've github'd the code for the curious. Most `problems` will be easily solved when lazy merges. I'll just code some `if-seq-let` type functions.
11:23	LordOfTheNoobs	http://github.com/knome/clojure-parser-combinator/blob/39604ab7f0a24f442da1b6ef40caebce544eea9e/parser.clj
11:25	gordongecko	gordongecko is out of jail for inside trading ready to take over the world
11:40	paramond	Hi! Does anybody know how to load a Java class file at the repl? Something like (load-class "MyJavaClass.class")
11:41	Chousuke	paramond: you can't load class files directly, but you can add directories and jars to the classpath
11:41	Chousuke	(doc add-classpath)
11:41	clojurebot	Adds the url (String or URL object) to the classpath per URLClassLoader.addURL; arglists ([url])
11:41	Chousuke	Though I guess that could work for class files directly too :/
11:42	paramond	Thanks, i will try that out.
11:43	cooldude127	is there a way to split a namespace into multiple files?
11:45	jayfields	how do I get an environment variable? (the equivalent of System.getenv("USERNAME"))
11:46	Chousuke	cooldude127: sure; you can just declare the namespace in a master file and use (load-file)
11:46	cooldude127	Chousuke: ok thank you, my file is getting big but i don't want to split the namespace
11:46	Chousuke	cooldude127: load-file is like include I suppose :)
11:48	rhickey	cooldude127: look at the end of core.clj where it loads the proxy/print and genclass stuff
11:48	cooldude127	ok
11:48	Chousuke	jayfields: System/getenv; though apparently that's deprecated.
11:48	cooldude127	how is that deprecated?
11:48	Chousuke	it says in the docs you should instead use properties
11:49	jayfields	thanks
11:49	cooldude127	oh lamer
11:49	cooldude127	*lame
11:49	Chousuke	well, it's more portable I guess.
11:49	cooldude127	eh, since when does java care about portability ;)
11:49	Chousuke	:P
11:52	shoover	paramond: you will need your class's directory on the classpath and then call import to get the class. at the REPL: (import '(my.package MyJavaClass)), where the parent of directory my/package is on the cp
12:08	paramond	shoover: should i left my.package out if i didn't declare MyJavaClass in a package?
12:09	Chousuke	paramond: you need to declare it in a package I think
12:10	paramond	paramond: but isn't there something like an unnamed package in java?
12:10	paramond	shoover: but isn't there something like an unnamed package in java?
12:13	kotarak	which is discouraged to be used in java land....
12:14	paramond	of course
12:14	duck1123	Won't it end up in some default package? like 'user or some such.
12:14	duck1123	or is that only in a repl
12:14	nsinghal	I have classpath with "classes" and "src" directory of a java project in that order. When i do (require :reload-all 'org.cc.file) - it is not reevaluating the changed clj file. If i delete the classes files (file__init.class) than the new clj is getting loaded.
12:15	gordongecko	java.lang.IllegalStateException: No transaction running (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
12:15	gordongecko	why not?
12:15	duck1123	is the clj file newer than the classes?
12:16	nsinghal	yes
12:16	kotarak	nsinghal: this is a known issue.
12:16	cooldude127	gordongecko: if you're doing something that needs a transaction, you probably need to wrap it in (dosync ...)
12:17	nsinghal	kotarak: thanks. is it being considered for fix?
12:17	kotarak	nsinghal: it's in the tracker: http://code.google.com/p/clojure/issues/detail?id=38
12:19	kotarak	nsinghal: so that tracker mainly consists of issues approved by rhickey it's probably fix at some point.
12:19	nsinghal	kotarak: thanks again. i will keep an eye on it
12:22	kotarak	But probably not after a working day...
12:24	gordongecko	if im nesting 3 for loops fo i need to dorun on all?
12:25	kotarak	gordongecko: for is not a loop. If you do this for side effects use doseq
12:26	kotarak	gordongecko: if you are interested in the results and still need side-effects, wrap the for in a doall.
12:27	Chousuke	does doall realise the seqs recursively?
12:27	Chousuke	for somewhat unfortunate naming; but if you ask me, it's C that uses the name "for" wrong :P
12:27	kotarak	hehe
12:28	gnuvince	Chousuke: more succinctly: C is wrong.
12:28	gnuvince	;)
12:28	kotarak	gordongecko: do you have some code?
12:28	Chousuke	nah
12:28	kotarak	lisppaste8: url
12:28	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
12:28	Chousuke	C is nice.
12:28	Chousuke	C++ is wrong :(
12:28	kotarak	here's a place to put it. Looking at an example might help to help you.
12:29	gnuvince	Chousuke: I guess that's subjective, but there are a lot of things wrong with C.
12:30	Chousuke	Well, yeah
12:30	replaca	C is a very nice portable assembly language
12:30	Chousuke	but if you keep it simple, it does the job it's supposed to.
12:30	kotarak	Chousuke: I think it depends on how the for's are nested. if the inner for produces a seq for the outer for it's evaluated I think. If the outer for generates a seq containing the inner for as elements....
12:32	lisppaste8	gekko pasted "sideeffecting problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74798
12:32	lisppaste8	gekko annotated #74798 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74798#1
12:32	kotarak	gordongecko: you want doseq instead of for
12:33	Chousuke	using a ref like that looks wrong.
12:33	gordongecko	anyone could take a look at that? i thnk imdoing the same as the java-code
12:33	Chousuke	it's simulating mutation; you need to figure out a more functional way to do it.
12:34	gordongecko	yes but it should work anyway right?
12:34	kotarak	gordongecko: as I wrote, you want doseq instead of for
12:35	gordongecko	yes i mgihtn want that but what im saying it should work like this too no?
12:36	Chousuke	it should, I guess.
12:36	Chousuke	assuming assoc-inc is just a typo in the paste :)
12:37	Chousuke	but that's really not a good way of doing it.
12:39	lisppaste8	gekko annotated #74798 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74798#2
12:39	gordongecko	http://paste.lisp.org/display/74798#2
12:39	gordongecko	assoc-inc is my own fucntion
12:40	kotarak	gordongecko: I suspect get-at also
12:41	cooldude127	gordongecko: funny, i'm also working matrices in clojure :)
12:41	cooldude127	except it's all functional. no refs or any mutation at all
12:42	gordongecko	im only using mutation here
12:42	gordongecko	i wrote the damn thing in haskell first
12:42	gordongecko	worked nicely
12:43	gordongecko	u know there is colt(java lib) for hardcore matrix stuff right?
12:43	gordongecko	both sparse and dense
12:43	cooldude127	no i didn't, but part of the reason i'm writing it is educational
12:43	cooldude127	help myself learn the stuff i'm doing in my calc 3 class
12:44	cooldude127	just coded up some really shitty row reduction code
12:44	cooldude127	but i need to go, i'll be back on soon
12:45	gordongecko	calc uni or hs?
12:58	Chousuke	gah, I can never quite remember how matrix multiplication works :(
13:00	Chousuke	I always get confused about the order in which to multiply the component vectors :/
13:09	durka42	doesn't seem like you should need side effects for matrix multiplication
13:21	jbondeson	the more code i write in C# the more i love immutable datatypes
13:21	Nafai	jbondeson: Why do you say that? I'm not closely familiar with C#
13:23	jbondeson	just happen to be writing a new datatype and keeping track of data changing is a bitch. soooo much cleaner when your enclosed type can't change.
13:23	gnuvince	Either he uses mutable data structures which cause him endless problems, or he uses immutable data structures which don't give him nearly as many problems.
13:24	Nafai	Heh
13:25	jbondeson	what's really annoying is having to realize that structs and classes are treated so much differently by the CLR, not to mention that sometimes structs are immutable in the BCL, and sometimes mutable.
13:26	jbondeson	makes you want to throw your hands up in despair and just code some more clojure
13:27	cooldude127	jbondeson: clojure is my relief from my data structures class in java
13:27	cooldude127	i wrote a b-tree, then did some clojure code to make me feel better
13:27	jbondeson	heh
13:29	cooldude127	i think i just made myself a lot more productive in emacs by simply switching to the bar cursor instead of a box
13:30	cooldude127	apparently i spent a lot of time wondering what stuff was underneath my cursor
13:30	technomancy	you can't see through it?
13:30	cooldude127	no, i guess my theme doesn't have it that way
13:30	jbondeson	The box is more explicit for me, especially in insert mode
13:30	technomancy	maybe your graphics card doesn't have enough transparency support
13:32	cooldude127	technomancy: i doubt that
13:32	cooldude127	jbondeson: insert mode?
13:33	cooldude127	i used to be able to see through it, not sure when that stopped happening. i like the bar anyway tho
13:41	Lau_of_DK	Good evening gents
13:42	cooldude127	good afternoon lau
13:42	duck1123	I used to use the bar cursor, but I lost it a couple revisions ago when I was cleaning up my .emacs
13:44	cgrand1	good evening Mr of_DK
13:44	Lau_of_DK	:)
13:44	jbondeson	cooldude127: sorry, in emacs it's "Overwrite" mode
13:44	jbondeson	as in after you hit the "INS" key
13:44	cooldude127	jbondeson: oh, that. never used it :)
13:44	duck1123	I've disabled it
13:44	jbondeson	hah
13:45	cooldude127	mac doesn't even have an ins key, so i forgot about it
13:45	jbondeson	i use it for correcting capitalization, which as you can tell my my dislike of the shift key, happens quite a bit
13:45	duck1123	(put 'overwrite-mode 'disabled t)
14:08	jayfields	is there a target date for Clojure 1.0?
14:09	cooldude127	technomancy: wooo! my clojure-update function actually did its job! i just got some updated slime
14:10	gnuvince	cooldude127: what function?
14:10	durka42	slimier than ever!
14:10	danlarkin	jayfields: no
14:10	cooldude127	gnuvince: an emacs function to complement technomancy's clojure-install function
14:10	technomancy	cooldude127: high-five!
14:10	cooldude127	updates your copies of clojure, clojure-contrib, swank-clojure, and slime
14:10	technomancy	I committed it to clojure-mode btw
14:10	gnuvince	nice
14:11	cooldude127	oh and recompiles clojure
14:11	cooldude127	technomancy: cool
14:11	gnuvince	I got a python script to update swank-clojure, slime and clojure-mode and I do clojure and clojure-contrib by hand.
14:11	technomancy	cooldude127: I took out the part that runs ant in clojure-contrib though since I realized it's unnecessary; just add clojure-contrib/src/ to the classpath instead.
14:11	cooldude127	technomancy: does clojure-slime-config take care of that?
14:11	technomancy	yups
14:11	cooldude127	cool
14:12	cooldude127	technomancy: i notice you haven't pushed that yet
14:12	technomancy	cooldude127: not to master, no
14:12	cooldude127	technomancy: installer on github doesn't include it either
14:12	technomancy	oh crap
14:12	technomancy	you are correct
14:12	technomancy	done
14:14	cooldude127	technomancy: i think i spot an erro
14:14	cooldude127	r
14:14	cooldude127	(concat clojure-src-root "/clojure-contrib/clojure-contrib/src/")
14:15	cooldude127	why two clojure-contribs?
14:15	cooldude127	i only have one in my checkout
14:15	technomancy	you are right
14:15	cooldude127	wooo i'm on a roll today
14:15	technomancy	that's one way to think of it.
14:15	technomancy	(the other being that I'm losing it.)
14:15	cooldude127	lol
14:16	cooldude127	technomancy: you are really quick
14:16	technomancy	it's not a hard fix. =)
14:17	cooldude127	true
14:17	cooldude127	technomancy: i was going to ask why clojure-update didn't get an autoload, but then i realized that if you're using clojure-update, you probably already called clojure-slime-config
14:18	technomancy	aye
14:21	cooldude127	technomancy: you killed off the save-window-excursion part tho
14:22	technomancy	cooldude127: oh dang; I was playing around with it and forgot it
14:22	cooldude127	lol
14:22	technomancy	you had it around the compilation part, right?
14:22	cooldude127	yeah
14:22	cooldude127	in the normal case, the update part doesn't need it, they are one-liners
14:22	technomancy	will put that back in
14:22	cooldude127	cool
14:29	cooldude127	got the fix
14:39	BigTom	Where can I get a gentle intro into swank/slime etc?
14:39	BigTom	I seem to spend all me time lookin for how to do things rather than doing Clojure
14:39	BigTom	so I'm back to JEdit and a REPL again
14:41	BigTom	I had more luck with Erlang so I don't think its Emacs (though I stumble around with that to some extent)
14:41	cooldude127	BigTom: what's going wrong for you?
14:42	BigTom	Its not 'going wrong' as such, I just cannot seem to get anything going I'm trying clojure box so It should have installed ok
14:43	cooldude127	BigTom: you on windows i figure if you're doing clojurebox?
14:43	BigTom	yup
14:43	BigTom	my work machine
14:44	cooldude127	i probably won't be too much help, but technomancy's clojure-mode fork has some good support for installing and setting up clojure and slime. don't think it will work well on windows tho
14:45	BigTom	maybe I'll try it on my linux box
14:45	BigTom	Once I get over this hump
14:45	cooldude127	well i g2g
14:46	technomancy	BigTom: let me know if it works for you
14:46	BigTom	I have a bad habit of pissing time away on dev environments rather than learning the language so I am being a bit conservative
14:46	technomancy	if you can get it working on w32 I'd take some patches, but I don't think I could help much with it myself
14:46	BigTom	technomancy: thanks
14:46	jbondeson	BigTom: http://www.pchristensen.com/slimecommands.pdf
14:46	technomancy	BigTom: well this should be a single command, so it shouldn't take long to see if it works or not
14:47	BigTom	jbondeson: that looks good
14:48	jbondeson	C-c C-l is the big one, it load and evaluates a file
14:48	jbondeson	C-c C-c evaluates a form
14:48	jbondeson	if you just changed on form
14:49	jbondeson	one thing to realize is that you need to save your file before C-c C-l
14:49	jbondeson	also some of those commands may not be available with swank-clojure
14:52	technomancy	jbondeson: there's another command that just loads w/o prompting you like C-c C-l
14:53	jbondeson	yeah, C-c C-k
14:54	BigTom	ok, I have clojurebox slime running, I have loaded a file and load it (C-c C-l)
14:54	BigTom	Then I display the REPL
14:54	jbondeson	also, i don't know how clojure-box comes set up, but you can split a window horizontally with C-x 3, and vertically with C-x 2
14:55	BigTom	how do I get the REPL to execute? It just gives me a new line.
14:55	jbondeson	depending if you have a namespace defined, you may have to do a (in-ns) at the repl
14:55	jbondeson	you're not getting results?
14:56	BigTom	no, just working my way down the REPL
14:58	jbondeson	when you type in a form it's not displaying the results?
14:58	BigTom	nope
14:58	jbondeson	o_O
14:58	jbondeson	what does your repl say?
14:59	BigTom	A new 'unloaded' REPL works
14:59	jbondeson	I'm not quite following you.
15:00	BigTom	Does clojurebox have its own Clojure.jar?
15:00	jbondeson	I believe clojure-box comes with a clojure.jar and clojure-contrib.jar
15:01	BigTom	jbondeson: First time round the REPL was a bit dead, seems healthier now
15:01	BigTom	(after restart)
15:01	BigTom	I am going to have to replace the clojure jars, I need the new watchers
15:02	jbondeson	you can open up the .emacs file and change the location
15:02	BigTom	jbondeson: Ah, thanks
15:02	shoover	BigTom: how old is your clojure box? the one on the site matches clojure svn r1235
15:03	BigTom	shoover, I think I grabbed it a couple of days back
15:03	BigTom	jbondson: I take it I need my own .emacs, I don't have one yet, hang on
15:04	shoover	I would recommend grabbing again. I just uploaded yesterday
15:04	BigTom	ah, will do
15:04	shoover	you don't need .emacs. clojure box handles the initialization. but if you do have .emacs, it could mess up clojure box
15:04	shoover	(if you change settings it wants a certain way)
15:04	hiredman	hmmm
15:05	hiredman	someone renamed the google map
15:05	BigTom	shoover: ok
15:05	jbondeson	BigTom: Sorry, I thought it simply came with a preconfigured .emacs file.
15:05	hiredman	the clojure google map has been renamed to "William Hidden"
15:05	shoover	it comes with a preconfigured default.el in the site-start directory
15:05	BigTom	shoover: I got it from bighugh, is that the right place?
15:06	shoover	BigTom: yes
15:06	shoover	hiredman: I don't blame that person... adding a point is hard to figure out
15:06	hiredman	yeah
15:18	BigTom	shoover: Hi again
15:18	shoover	and?
15:19	BigTom	shoover: I have the latest and it compiles stuff and the REPL works out of the box
15:20	shoover	good
15:20	BigTom	The current problem is that I cannot run expressions from a file I have loaded (Unable to resolve symbol)
15:20	shoover	hmm, I just did a C-c C-l on fnparse and it resolved ok
15:20	cooldude127	BigTom: using clojurebox?
15:20	BigTom	how do I sort the classpath out?
15:21	BigTom	cooldudel27: yes
15:21	hiredman	does the file declare a namespace at the top? are you in the namespace declared by the file?
15:21	cooldude127	oh
15:21	BigTom	hiredman: yes
15:21	hiredman	yes to both?
15:22	BigTom	clojurebox and namespace in file
15:22	BigTom	filename euler.clj namespace euler
15:22	cooldude127	BigTom: and it does (ns euler) at the top?
15:23	BigTom	coldudel27: yes (ns euler)
15:23	cooldude127	hmm
15:23	BigTom	how do I work out "where" the REPL thinks it is?
15:24	shoover	run ProcMon :)
15:24	Chousuke	hmm
15:24	Chousuke	there was some java property
15:24	Chousuke	maybe user.dir
15:25	cooldude127	BigTom: like what directory?
15:25	cooldude127	cuz that shouldn't matter in this case
15:25	BigTom	cooldudel27: ok, thanks, so the file location doesn't matter?
15:26	shoover	I can access symbols with a namespace-qualified name, but I can't use or require the namespace
15:27	BigTom	everything I do with my code gets ; Evaluation aborted
15:27	shoover	BigTom: how are you trying to access the symbols from the loaded file? use? require? fully-qualified?
15:28	hiredman	clojurebot: what do you think of emacs?
15:28	clojurebot	"Learning Emacs and SLIME was just about the most painful computer experience I've ever been through."
15:28	BigTom	I've tried (use 'euler) and (euler-euler-1 100)
15:28	shoover	euler/euler-1
15:29	cooldude127	yeah
15:29	BigTom	I mean(euler.euler-1 1--)
15:29	shoover	use a /
15:29	shoover	or you can (do (refer 'euler) (euler-1 100))
15:29	BigTom	shoover: Doh!
15:29	Ariens	clojurebot: what do you think of textmate?
15:29	clojurebot	Huh?
15:29	BigTom	(euler/euler-1 100) worked
15:29	hiredman	,(.codePointAt "..." 0)
15:29	clojurebot	8230
15:30	shoover	for use and require, you will have to (add-classpath "file:///path/to/eulers/parent")
15:30	cooldude127	BigTom: apparently you just had the wrong namespace separator
15:30	hiredman	clojurebot: how about that add-classpath?
15:30	clojurebot	classpath is (System/getProperty "java.class.path")
15:30	hiredman	clojurebot: add-classpath?
15:30	clojurebot	add-classpath is bad, avoid it. I mean it!
15:30	shoover	clojurebot: why?
15:30	clojurebot	why not?
15:30	BigTom	cooldudel27: at the end, I think the add-classpath will be the trick
15:31	BigTom	hiredman: is that bad then?
15:31	hiredman	BigTom: it is unreliable
15:31	cooldude127	BigTom: but really, if this is your own code, with slime you just load the file with your code, and run C-c C-k which compiles all your code into the repl
15:31	cooldude127	i've never once used add-classpath
15:33	BigTom	cooldude127: How do you invoke your expressions?
15:34	cooldude127	BigTom: when i first load slime, i run C-c C-k to load a file for the first time. after that, when i change a function, i run C-c C-c to compile just that function (or macro or any other toplevel expression)
15:35	BigTom	cooldude127: when you are testing them do you call them from the REPL with fully qualified names?
15:36	shoover	BigTom: try (refer 'euler). Normally that would be done as part of the ns at the top, but from the REPL refer should work after C-c C-k
15:36	cooldude127	BigTom: no, i usually change into the namespace they are in with ,!p
15:36	cooldude127	comma performs slime commands
15:36	cooldude127	!p is an abbreviation for change-package
15:37	BigTom	cooldude127: that got it, thanks
15:37	cooldude127	cool
15:37	BigTom	cooldude127: when yoy say it would normally be done as part of the ns, am I missing something?
15:37	BigTom	cooldude127: in my code?
15:38	cooldude127	well shoover said that, but he means in code, you wouldn't use (refer blah), as that would be done in your (ns) declaration at the top. but for the repl, you don't have one, so (refer) is ok
15:39	BigTom	cooldude127: thnaks
15:39	cooldude127	no problem
15:39	technomancy	you can call ns in the repl
15:39	BigTom	One last question, if I want to load a load of dependent jars (I am playing with compojure) what is the most convenient way?
15:39	technomancy	but if you'd rather not; yeah just call use or refer etc.
15:40	cooldude127	technomancy: you can, but it's usually easier to use the others if you're just messing around in user
15:40	technomancy	BigTom: I add them to swank-clojure-extra-classpaths before launching slime
15:40	cooldude127	BigTom: configure swank-clojure-extra-jars
15:40	cooldude127	BigTom: listen to technomancy, i was guessing
15:41	technomancy	cooldude127: the advantage of running IRC in Emacs is you can type swank-clojure- followed by M-/, and it will autocomplete from all loaded lisp symbols. =)
15:42	cooldude127	technomancy: you're right, the thought to do that didn't even occur to me :)
15:42	BigTom	technomancy: that's in swank-clojure.el?
15:42	cooldude127	yes
15:42	technomancy	it's called intelligence augmentation. =) some of us need a little more help than others.
15:43	cooldude127	technomancy: apparently today you do ;)
15:43	technomancy	"I'm not... normally like this..."
15:43	cooldude127	lol
15:43	cooldude127	i have my own problems today
15:43	BigTom	And on that note I will go and do family stuff
15:43	cooldude127	i have no idea why my code to compute matrix inverses isn't correct, but i do know it's wrong
15:44	BigTom	Thanks everyone for all the help
15:44	cooldude127	no problem
15:44	shoover	BigTom: you're welcome. Read the README.rtf in c:\program files\clojure box for how to customize that variable
15:45	jbondeson	cooldude127: because computing the inverse of matricies is friggin' evil.
15:45	ayrnieu	really? I don't know how anyone could find http://mathworld.wolfram.com/MatrixInverse.html unclear.
15:46	cooldude127	jbondeson: i have two ways of doing them, and one of them is very wrong for anything more than 3x3
15:46	cooldude127	but then apparently that method doesn't work for that
15:47	cooldude127	which i didn't know
15:47	jbondeson	anything over 3x3 (which mean 99.999% of the time) needs to use more advanced linear algebraic methods.
15:48	jbondeson	friggin' LU Decomposition
15:48	cooldude127	jbondeson: i have LU sort of working
15:48	cooldude127	it doesn't handle the bad cases well tho
15:48	cooldude127	0's kind of trip it up
15:49	cooldude127	stupid row reduction
15:50	ryszard_szopa	I already know add-classpath is evil. Can anybody explain me why? (apart from the fact that it doesn't seem to work;))
15:50	cooldude127	ryszard_szopa: that's probably it
15:50	jbondeson	that would probably be a good reason it's evil...
15:51	ryszard_szopa	well, I guessed that if that was it I would see people complaining and other fixing stuff...
15:52	ryszard_szopa	*other people
15:52	cooldude127	ryszard_szopa: naw, we just ignore it
15:52	cooldude127	pretend it's not there ;)
15:54	jbondeson	it's useful at the repl, but otherwise should be treated like a leper at a party: kept away from the chip bowl
15:55	technomancy	ryszard_szopa: apparently the JVM makes it impossible to implement correctly
15:55	technomancy	I think that's the Official Story
15:55	technomancy	even though somehow JRuby manages it...
15:55	jbondeson	ruby involves deep magic... best not dwell upon it
15:56	cooldude127	i believe the underlying philosophy of ruby is magic
15:57	technomancy	the underlying philosophy of Ruby is "you can do it at runtime"... which can often mean magic. =)
15:57	cooldude127	lol
15:57	hiredman	jruby most likely has more layers of indirection between it and the jvm, so it has room to shuffle stuff around
15:58	ryszard_szopa	well, I know next to nothing about Java (I have mainly Common Lisp and Python experience), and being able to poke around and see how some Java libraries work would probably help me a lot.
15:58	technomancy	whereas with Java it's like, "What do you mean you don't know your classpath at boot time? Haven't you held the requisite planning meetings to decide what jars you're going to use?"
15:58	jbondeson	it still kills me that ruby on the jvm is faster in many cases than ruby on it's own vm
15:58	technomancy	jbondeson: that was true two days ago... =)
15:58	cooldude127	technomancy: lol
15:58	technomancy	jbondeson: before Ruby had its own VM. now with its own VM it's usually faster than JRuby
15:59	ryszard_szopa	the present implementation of add-classpath is around 6 lines long
15:59	ryszard_szopa	do you think it is really that hard to fix?
15:59	hiredman	the jvm is pretty cool and my respect for all the tools in the java runtime grows and grows
15:59	jbondeson	technomancy: ruby: when you're starting to look bad, make some breaking change that'll slow down the opposition?
16:00	technomancy	hehe
16:00	hiredman	ryszard_szopa: it doesn't seem to bother people enough to try and fix it
16:02	jbondeson	i just avoid the whole problem by rolling one nice big jar with clojure and contrib in it (for my own stuff, no distribution)
16:03	kotarak	clojurebot: macro
16:03	clojurebot	macro help is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/macro.html
16:08	ryszard_szopa	OK, so how can I check what is the current classpath, ie. if add-class has worked?
16:08	ayrnieu	,(System/getProperty "java.class.path")
16:08	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.util.PropertyPermission java.class.path read)
16:08	ryszard_szopa	(. System (getProperty "java.class.path")) seems to show me what was specified at the command line
16:09	technomancy	ayrnieu: that only gives you the boot classpath
16:09	technomancy	ryszard_szopa: AFAIK there's no way to get anything other than the boot classpath
16:09	technomancy	sad but true
16:10	ryszard_szopa	technomancy: does this mean there's no way of checking if add-classpath has succeeded?
16:10	technomancy	ryszard_szopa: apart from trying an "import" and seeing if it fails, no
16:11	technomancy	ryszard_szopa: it sucks to maintain your classpath list manually... the best I've been able to come up with is to have a jars directory and construct your classpath dynamically from its contents.
16:11	technomancy	but AFAIK there's no getting around restarting the JVM. which is sad.
16:11	ayrnieu	the jars directory is what I do. CLASSPATH is not unlike C's LD_LIBRARY_PATH , ldconfig , etc.
16:12	technomancy	I've fought this fight... it's not worth it. accept the annoyance and move on; you'll have more fun.
16:12	ayrnieu	it's just that the small bit of architecturing you have to do for CLASSPATH, your OS already does for C.
16:12	ayrnieu	and perhaps your expectations are higher. Of course C doesn't let you switch between clojure-trunk and clojure-lazy at runtime.
16:13	technomancy	ayrnieu: I've been spoiled by other lisps.
16:13	Raynes	Is there a function to get Console input in Clojure?
16:13	ryszard_szopa	does writing a shell script to maintain a sane classpath count as fighting the system? ;-)
16:13	ayrnieu	well, let the advantages of jars spoil these other lisps for you in other respects :-) Then you'll be too bitter to use anything.
16:13	technomancy	ryszard_szopa: btw, I think the problems with add-classpath only apply to jars that contain java... it might be fine to use it with directories full of clj files.
16:14	ryszard_szopa	and, are there any drawbacks of having a large classpath?
16:14	rhickey	technomancy: do you know about java.ext.dirs?
16:14	durka42	,(.. clojure.lang.RT getRootClassLoader getURLs)
16:14	clojurebot	#<URL[] [Ljava.net.URL;@77a748>
16:14	durka42	,(map prn (.. clojure.lang.RT getRootClassLoader getURLs))
16:14	clojurebot	nil
16:14	durka42	the above is not a stable API
16:14	technomancy	ryszard_szopa: as long as your shell script doesn't enumerate each jar but builds it up from a glob, I'd say you're good
16:14	durka42	but that is where add-classpaths go
16:14	ayrnieu	ryszard, I have eight lines of CLASSPATH in my ~/.zshrc, and three add every .jar in a specific directory to it. I also have a Makefile that I say 'make lazy' 'make trunk' to, to swap out .jars
16:15	technomancy	rhickey: have read about it but haven't used it yet. does it allow you to add in a jar after the JVM has booted?
16:15	technomancy	vs building a static list at boot time
16:16	AWizzArd	where again can I find the roadmap for Clojure?
16:17	ayrnieu	java -Djava.ext.dirs=/directory/of/jars ...
16:17	StartsWithK	why not java -cp "lib/*" clojure.lang.Repl
16:18	StartsWithK	loads all jars under lib/
16:18	durka42	so only specifically mentioned (or globbed) jars are added to the classpath, but everything in the extdirs?
16:18	technomancy	StartsWithK: right, but you can't add anything after you've booted
16:19	technomancy	if java.ext.dirs allows for that, then that would pretty much take care of my issues
16:19	technomancy	it's a little inside-out from what I'm used to, but it'd still allow for what you need.
16:21	Chouser	I think people have had some issues with java.ext.dirs. something about it being meant for extensions (native libs?) not regular .jars.
16:22	rhickey	http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/guide/extensions/spec.html#deployment
16:23	ryszard_szopa	ayrnieu: do you think that generating my classpath with something like `mdfind -onlyin /usr/ "kind:jar"` would be overkill? ;-)
16:24	rhickey	Chouser: I think it is specifically for the kind of "installed on my machine" use you always wanted
16:24	rhickey	with a single indirection
16:24	rhickey	vs a true global install
16:31	Chouser	This is the message I was thinking of: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/7f0c9775ba70d169
16:32	Chouser	or perhaps this one: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/f65dd874f779b15c
16:32	Chouser	in which case the only issue may be if your OS is already assuming (or has set) a java.ext.dir for you.
16:33	Chouser	in which case it might be better to simply install your jars there instead of resetting java.ext.dir
16:43	hiredman	does import not work with classes in jars added with add-classpath?
17:01	lisppaste8	ryszard_szopa pasted "memfn for static methods?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74820
17:01	ryszard_szopa	is there something like memfn for static methods?
17:03	Chouser	ryszard_szopa: that last example is what I always do
17:06	ryszard_szopa	Chouser: well, it works, but somehow it doesn't seem "right". otoh from the character count point of view #(Foo/bar %) may be optimal...
17:08	Chouser	I think it should be possible for the compiler to recognize a static method reference in a value position and generate a little fn wrapper on the fly.
17:08	Chouser	dunno if rhickey would take a patch for that or not.
17:08	Chouser	hm, seems plausible that it could even recognize the .foo syntax and write #(.foo %) for you, though I guess that's a rather less common scenario
17:10	Chousuke	I think he mentioned possibly auto-memfn:ing java methods in value position once.
17:12	Chouser	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-11-19.html#21:00a-21:04
17:16	rhickey	Chouser: the problem with the auto-memfning is overloads, once you need to distinguish #() wins
17:19	Chouser	arity overloading, right?
17:19	durka42	couldn't overloads be handled as normal?
17:20	durka42	,(map #(Math/ulp %) [(float 1.23) (double 1.23)])
17:20	clojurebot	(1.1920929E-7 2.220446049250313E-16)
17:20	Chouser	because it's unlikely that you'd be able to avoid reflection anyway
17:23	rhickey	Chouser: you can type-hint %
17:23	Chouser	right, but you'd have to do it explicitly on the arg.
17:23	rhickey	?
17:23	rhickey	user=> (set! warn-on-reflection true)
17:23	rhickey	true
17:23	rhickey	user=> #(Math/ulp %)
17:23	rhickey	Reflection warning, line: 9 - call to ulp can't be resolved.
17:23	rhickey	#<user$eval__29$fn__31 user$eval__29$fn__31@2db45934>
17:23	rhickey	user=> #(Math/ulp (float %))
17:24	rhickey	#<user$eval__36$fn__38 user$eval__36$fn__38@7be4d80b>
17:24	Chouser	the compiler's not going to infer the type for the arg based on the seq passed to 'map', for example.
17:24	rhickey	that doesn't mean reflection is unavoidable
17:25	rhickey	you can pick the overload with the type hint
17:25	Chouser	yes, I was too vague
17:27	Chouser	I just meant that #(Math/ulp %) by itself would use reflection. You have to add something to that expression itself to avoid the reflection.
17:28	Chouser	So is the occasional need for #(Math/ulp (float %)) a good enough reason to never allow Math/ulp by itself?
17:29	rhickey	Chouser: I came to that conclusion
17:30	rhickey	putting in un-hintable reflective sugar seems a false benefit
17:30	rhickey	I guess the sugar could reject type-overloaded methods
17:30	Chouser	even if someone else wrote the patch for you? :-)
17:31	rhickey	will the patch author answer all 'how do I speed up (map Math/udp ...) questions? :)
17:32	rhickey	I had worked on this, including gen-class style Math/udp-float discrimination syntax
17:33	Chouser	oh. ew.
17:33	rhickey	well, without that or a prohibition on type-overloaded methods I think it's a non-starter
17:34	Chouser	It seems to me the transition from Math/ulp to #(Math/ulp (float %)) is not that much bigger a hurdle than from #(Math/ulp)
17:34	rhickey	by the time you are mapping a method you are atthe point where you are calling it often enough to care about the reflection costs
17:34	Chouser	either way you have to be thinking about reflection and type hints
17:35	rhickey	maybe so
17:35	Chouser	But (map Integer. (line-seq my-file)) is so pretty.
17:35	rhickey	#(Math/ulp #^Float %) works too, less of a change if you were doing #(Math/ulp %) already
17:36	rhickey	Chouser: I agree completely about the prettiness, but there are limits to pretending a thing (method) is something it's not (a fn)
17:37	rhickey	I just though it would encourage a lot of inefficiency, and that seems to be a focus of the community right now, for better or worse
17:38	Chouser	Yeah, I don't know if it's for better or worse, esp. in the long run. But it's a mismatch with my personal interests, so I'm occasionally annoyed by it.
17:39	rhickey	yeah, certainly the microbenchmarks are tiresome
17:39	hiredman	:(
17:40	Chouser	the only performance metric that I'm at all unhappy with is startup time, and I think that's been addressed as much as possible.
17:40	Chouser	I intend to play with nailgun at some point and see how that feels.
17:40	rhickey	so, while you may say ew at Math/udp-float, it makes the construct hintable. Alternatives for that would be welcome too
17:41	hiredman	Chouser: the solution to that is, start once and run forever
17:41	rhickey	disallowing type-overloaded methods would disallow many methods
17:41	Chouser	Hints already strike me as a (sometimes) necessary evil. I don't mind the extra #(%) noise if I'm also going to have type-hint noise.
17:42	rhickey	It's one thing to adorn what you've already got, another to have to switch constructs
17:43	rhickey	you are giving up too easily
17:44	Chouser	it's 5 characters. If they weren't all puncutation I would have given up sooner.
17:44	rhickey	:)
17:45	Chouser	still no pricing up on ILC 2009. I can't decide if it's worth the trip out there.
17:45	ayrnieu	translating Java to Clojure, I like the hints for documentation. I actually do a lot of "what type is this?!" reading Java; it helps to cache the lookups.
17:46	rhickey	Chouser: are you using exceptions for conditions?
17:46	rhickey	I had conditions in an early prototype of Clojure
17:46	rhickey	but exceptions are the only non-local flow control, and user catches can interfere
17:47	rhickey	still, I had to use them for transactions
17:47	Chouser	rhickey: well, I don't think I'm going to do a straight port, but yeah I have to use exceptions in some places.
17:48	Chouser	I'm reading about CL's system, trying to make sure I at least have an excuse for any features I leave out.
17:49	rhickey	Chouser: fwiw, I used exception (actually Error) object identity for handler matches, custom derive your own Error type and neuter fillInStackTrace
17:50	Chouser	why neuter fillInStackTrace?
17:50	hiredman	performance?
17:50	ryszard_szopa	rhickey: do you plan to make to make Clojure more Java (as in Java-the-language, not Java-the-vm-and-platform) independent in the future? Most of the time I spent learning Clojure consisted of reading about Java :-)
17:50	rhickey	because it's a huge overhead you don't need
17:50	Chouser	ah. hm.
17:51	rhickey	Chouser: it's a standard technique when using exceptions for flow control
17:51	hiredman	there was something on reddit yesterday about exceptions that mentioned it
17:51	Chouser	well, my #1 goal is a simple compile-free way to "throw" and "catch" custom "exceptions"
17:52	ayrnieu	hiredman - this? http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7u3jc/languages_on_the_jvm_can_implement_nonlocal/
17:52	hiredman	ayrnieu: looks like it
17:52	rhickey	Chouser: really, that's all?
17:52	Chouser	but once starting down that road it seems a shame to leave out any useful features from CL's condition system, at least the ones that anyone ever uses.
17:52	Chouser	rhickey: yeah, I don't know CL well enough to have any larger ambitions
17:52	Chouser	:-)
17:53	durka42	wait, what do you mean compile-free
17:53	ayrnieu	Chouser, you could a variant of 'try' that rethrows the type of exception that you use for this other purpose.
17:53	rhickey	The main point of conditions is to allow code to intervene before the stack unwinds
17:53	Chouser	yes, and I've got that already
17:53	Chouser	no Exceptions needed
17:53	hiredman	durka42: no need to gen-class and (compile ...)
17:53	Chouser	http://paste.lisp.org/display/72867
17:54	Chouser	durka42: yeah, what hiredman said
17:54	Chouser	but if you want to restart anywhere other than the lowest level, or not restart at all, then I don't see how to avoid an Exception.
17:54	Raynes	read-line if broke in whatever version of Clojure Programming Clojure's sample code is using.
17:56	ayrnieu	Raynes, where do you see read-line ? I don't see it in the book or in the sample code.
17:56	gnuvince_	,(/ 25000 365)
17:56	clojurebot	5000/73
17:56	gnuvince_	,(double (/ 25000 365))
17:56	clojurebot	68.4931506849315
17:56	Raynes	ayrnieu: I was using read-line, with his version. It's not in the book.
17:56	hiredman	clojurebot: clojurebot is also like life: you make trade-offs
17:56	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
17:56	Raynes	Also, *is in my previous statment.
17:57	hiredman	ugh
17:57	hiredman	stupid completeion
17:57	Raynes	statement*
17:57	Raynes	-.-
17:57	hiredman	clojurebot: clojure is also like life: you make trade-offs
17:57	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
17:58	danlarkin	Raynes: testbuttsecks.clj? jeez...
18:00	Raynes	danlarkin: :\| You try to think of a namespace name at 2 am after being awake for 36 hours :\|
18:01	ayrnieu	just go with 'no namespace'.
18:01	Raynes	The file name is main.clj, the package is testbuttsecks
18:01	danlarkin	Raynes: :) nah I don't blame you, I'm still nameless for a project I've been working on for a few weeks
18:01	technomancy	I bet that's awkward.
18:01	ayrnieu	clojurebot: jure words
18:01	clojurebot	http://gist.github.com/54847
18:01	technomancy	oh no, please no. =)
18:02	technomancy	we have enough *jure projects already
18:02	technomancy	except injure. that would be awesome.
18:03	hiredman	clojurebot: Xiphojura?
18:03	clojurebot	2009:Jan:29:16:03:17 <hiredman> I call Xiphojura
18:03	danlarkin	hahaha oh man
18:03	danlarkin	inure
18:03	danlarkin	injure rather
18:03	danlarkin	that's the only acceptable -jure name
18:03	durka42	antipleajure
18:04	durka42	seijure
18:04	durka42	that's enough of that i think
18:04	Raynes	Heh, you should see the Haskell project names :\|
18:04	Raynes	They all start with an H :\|
18:05	technomancy	ruby projects all started with R until about 2005
18:06	danlarkin	oh it's the same with everything, kde/gnome were all k--- and g---
18:07	technomancy	I think a language outgrows that after a while. Hopefully with Clojure it can happen sooner rather than later.
18:07	duck1123	what do you think of a clojure-based identi.ca clone named indenjure
18:07	ryszard_szopa	suo-jure would be a good name for a project that is something in its own right
18:08	duck1123	I wanted to contact the .ar registar to get spec.tacul.ar
18:24	hiredman	clojurebot: two cents is <reply>�
18:24	clojurebot	c'est bon!
18:25	kotarak	clojurebot: this is not a bug
18:25	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
18:26	hiredman	,0800
18:26	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:Invalid number: 0800
18:26	hiredman	,0700
18:26	clojurebot	448
18:26	hiredman	weird, yes?
18:27	Chouser	what's wierd?
18:28	Chouser	weird
18:28	danlarkin	hiredman: prefixing a number with 0 means octal
18:29	hiredman	oh
18:29	hiredman	of course
18:39	danlarkin	Chouser: I came to the conclusion that clojure-json does belong in contrib. Or rather that contrib should have a good json library.. which it does, certainly, just that clojure-json has a few more features, but stephen's version is so much simpler, so I donno
18:41	Chouser	hm...
18:42	Chouser	have you talked to him about it at all?
18:42	danlarkin	no I haven't
18:43	danlarkin	probably should :)
18:44	ozy`	what's the word on efforts to get clojure featured in a hip new anime?
18:45	ozy`	you know, to compete with common lisp
18:45	technomancy	ozy`: there was talk of using it to replace VB for creating a GUI to track IP addresses...
18:46	danlarkin	technomancy: re: IP GUI: I'm all over that
18:46	hiredman	the first gui stuff I did with clojure was making a fake "TCP Flow Control Panel"
18:48	ozy`	technomancy: "serial experiments lain" was a -bit- more tech-savvy than CSI ;)
18:49	ozy`	I would like to make one of those interfaces where you type random keys into a window and it displays random lines and circles all over the screen
18:49	ozy`	that would be a neat prop to confuse my friends with
18:50	hiredman	ozy`: I think that is called "unicode font browser"
18:50	hiredman	,(char 3424)
18:50	clojurebot	\?
18:50	hiredman	hmm
18:50	ozy`	hiredman: well played....
18:52	hiredman	,(char 1342)
18:52	clojurebot	\?
18:52	hiredman	hmm
18:53	ozy`	technomancy: played Uplink recently? that's an even niftier hacking GUI... you could remake that with 3D graphics and it would be a blast
18:53	ozy`	:p
18:53	ozy`	,(char 1492)
18:53	clojurebot	\?
18:53	hiredman	,(char 1111)
18:53	clojurebot	\?
18:54	hiredman	,(char 911)
18:54	clojurebot	\?
18:54	ryszard_szopa	,(char 666)
18:54	clojurebot	\?
18:54	mudphone	technomancy: we'll probably need angelina jolie to help out too.
18:54	ayrnieu	that character does not warrant its code.
18:55	ryszard_szopa	,(char 777)
18:55	clojurebot	\?
18:55	ozy`	,(map char (range 666 700))
18:55	clojurebot	(\? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \� \�� \?)
18:56	Hun	oh noes. my unicode font has a hole
18:56	ryszard_szopa	well, apparently phonetics is evil
18:57	Chousuke	regarding the technical realism in CSI... didn't they use photo manipulation in one episode to look behind a corner or something? /:
18:57	Chousuke	I think that's awesome.
18:57	ozy`	yeah, I hear they do that on a regular basis
18:57	Hun	blade runner did that first
18:57	hiredman	infinite resolution security cameras
18:57	ozy`	but with blade runner he was looking under the edge of a framed photo, wasn't he?
18:57	Hun	numb3rs had some steganography a while ago
18:58	Hun	they hid text in jpgs
18:58	ayrnieu	,(java.util.Date. (long (* 1000 1234567890)))
18:58	clojurebot	#<Date Fri Feb 13 15:31:30 PST 2009>
18:58	Chousuke	or getting the face of the attacker from the reflection in the victim's eye.
18:58	ozy`	D:
18:58	Chousuke	though that's almost believable.
18:58	Hun	and the cooldudes found it by zooming infinity plus one times in to read it
18:59	Hun	ergo zoom a single black pixel to make it become a tiny `o'
18:59	ozy`	I think it was 24 (didn't see it, only heard about it) where someone takes a guard's picture, magnifies it in a copier, and holds it up to a retina scanner to get through a oor
18:59	ozy`	*door
18:59	Hun	awesome. i need one of those xeroxen
18:59	Chousuke	heheh
19:00	technomancy	you sure that wasn't Space Quest IV?
19:00	Chousuke	see, unreal computer tech in movies is a GOOD thing.
19:00	Chousuke	endless source of amusement.
19:00	ozy`	Chousuke: and of "interesting" deadlines from easily amused management... ;)
19:00	Hun	a few years ago in cobra 11 (german police series), the goodguys had a picture of the car of one of the badguys
19:01	Hun	but a tree was blocking the sight of the license plate
19:01	Hun	so they photoshopped the tree away to read it
19:02	ryszard_szopa	do you think it would be possible in Clojure to have sql queries behave like lazy sequences? So that you could do eg. (drop 5 some-query), and that would return a query like the original but with offset 5?
19:02	danlarkin	Hun: I wish I could do that!
19:03	hiredman	ryszard_szopa: sure, just need someone to write it
19:03	Chousuke	well, hmm
19:03	ozy`	Hun: they should take that to its logical conclusion. some spies need to look inside a safe, so they take a picture from the other side of town and then photoshop it so it shows the room with the safe
19:03	Chousuke	you could write something that executes the query when realised I guess
19:03	hiredman	you have an sql query, that has a custom seq
19:03	ozy`	and then when they have trouble shooping the safe open, someone has to flip a switch from "magic" to "more magic"
19:04	Hun	ozy`: oh yays :)
19:04	ryszard_szopa	hiredman: yeah, but how to implement stuff like filter?
19:05	Hun	ozy`: and they photoshop the case away to see where the single wire to that switch goes
19:05	ryszard_szopa	hiredman: I was thinking of having some map that would get serialized to the argument right after select
19:05	Chousuke	ryszard_szopa: that sounds like you'd be better off creating a DSL with its own filter and drop functions.
19:06	ryszard_szopa	Chousuke: well yeah, but lazy seqs are so cool ;-)
19:06	Chousuke	you could still expose it as a lazy seq I guess.
19:07	Chousuke	I guess it'd be like a resultset-seq; only your DSL would allow you to manipulate the query in a functional style before you execaute it.
19:07	Chousuke	execute*
19:08	Chousuke	implementing such a system doesn't sound trivial though :/
19:09	danlarkin	this is like how django QuerySet objects behave
19:09	ozy`	ants.clj has an internally inconsistent function definition style.... sometimes the docstring is before the arglist, sometimes after
19:09	ozy`	is there any semantic difference there?
19:10	danlarkin	Model.objects.all()[4:10] is offset 4 limit 10
19:11	Chousuke	danlarkin: does that modify the query itself? :/
19:11	ryszard_szopa	danlarkin: yeah, exactly... but in Python is just enough to implement a __getitem__ method
19:11	danlarkin	Chousuke: yes, django QuerySet objects are lazy
19:11	ryszard_szopa	collections just have first, rest and something else I don't remember
19:11	ayrnieu	ozy, (arglist docstring) is more common across languages, but it doesn't also work with multi-arglist functions.
19:13	ayrnieu	I found (docstring arglist) off-putting, but it puts [name list & more] closer to your (name (more (list ...)))'ing code.
19:13	technomancy	yeah, I found the different locations of the docstring kind of weird too
19:14	technomancy	makes sense why it's necessary though.
19:14	Chousuke	so wait, it works after the arglist in some cases? /:
19:14	technomancy	I have a hard time remembering to do it the clojure way
19:14	technomancy	Chousuke: I don't think so.
19:14	ozy`	technomancy: looks like rhickey does, too :p
19:15	ayrnieu	(defn foo [] "doc" ...) works, yes.
19:15	ozy`	to be clear: this code is switching back and forth between (defn foo [args] "doc" (only-one-body)) and (defn foo "doc" [args] (still-only-one-body))
19:15	ryszard_szopa	that's kinda funny...
19:16	ayrnieu	you don't have to stick to in-function docstrings, though; you can add the documentation in a later step.
19:16	ryszard_szopa	I guess it would be saner if the lisp/python way didn't work
19:17	ryszard_szopa	oh, but if you do it the docstring-after-args way doc doesn't show the docstring
19:18	ayrnieu	oops.
19:18	technomancy	ryszard_szopa: you can put a string anywhere in a function body if you want. =)
19:19	technomancy	it's just not a docstring
19:20	ozy`	@stuff splices the contents of 'stuff into the current (arg)list, right?
19:21	Chousuke	,'@x
19:21	clojurebot	(clojure.core/deref x)
19:21	Chousuke	so, no. :)
19:22	ayrnieu	,`(def x [~@(list 1 2 3)])
19:22	clojurebot	(def clojure.core/x [1 2 3])
19:22	ayrnieu	,`(def x [~(list 1 2 3)])
19:22	clojurebot	(def clojure.core/x [(1 2 3)])
19:27	ryszard_szopa	technomancy: so the docstring after args way doesn't work, after all. so it's sane. :)
19:28	ayrnieu	,(.setMeta #'+ (assoc (meta #'+) :doc "Returns the sums of nums. (+) should never be used."))
19:28	clojurebot	nil
19:28	ayrnieu	,(doc +)
19:28	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns the sums of nums. (+) should never be used."
20:11	gnuvince_	Wow
20:11	gnuvince_	An operation on 100 files took 188 seconds
20:11	gnuvince_	I added a type hint to some of the called functions
20:11	gnuvince_	dropped to 60 seconds
20:13	ozy`	see, the static typing people aren't -that- crazy :p
20:13	gnuvince_	Who said they were crazy?
20:14	danlarkin	gnuvince: use (set! warn-on-reflection true) to find all places you're having to reflect
20:15	gnuvince_	danlarkin: do I need to put one per file?
20:15	danlarkin	gnuvince_: no
20:15	ayrnieu	you can set it once and then load all of your files.
20:20	gnuvince_	I'm gonna need to find more efficient ways to improve performance
20:29	gnuvince_	hmmm
20:29	gnuvince_	3 3.89% 23.43% 2216296 304693 sun.reflect.ReflectionFactory.copyMethod
20:30	gnuvince_	2.2M calls to copyMethod, is that usual in Clojure?
20:33	darrint	I "need" a loop to call setPosAt in Qt many times. Where do I find how to do that?
20:35	Chouser	dotimes, doseq, loop/recur
20:35	ayrnieu	dorun
20:35	darrint	dotimes looks like what I need. Much thanks.
20:36	Chouser	That's listed here under Looping: http://clojure.org/macros
20:36	sohail	hey how is the Qt interface going? is it still fugly
20:37	darrint	Hope you aren't asking me. It's prettier from here than raw C++. That's all I know.
20:38	Chouser	several people have taken swings at it
20:38	danlarkin	Chouser: pun intended?
20:39	darrint	I'm trying to make Graphics View work. So far so good.
20:39	Chouser	danlarkin: nah, but I'll take it. :-)
20:41	gnuvince_	grrr!
20:45	darrint	"Hello World!" moving diagonally. w00t!
20:46	darrint	tomorrow, the world.
20:46	dreish	Was that in Acorn BASIC?
20:46	ayrnieu	(doto world greet conquer)
20:46	dreish	If not, too bad. I love Acorn BASIC.
20:47	dreish	Though it might be better with macros.
20:48	ayrnieu	doto: http://paste.lisp.org/display/74762
21:04	darrint	Ok. It there a quick way to get from a vector of some objects to a java array of that object?
21:04	Chouser	(into-array myvector)
21:06	hiredman	that was pretty quick
21:06	darrint	thanks.
21:08	ayrnieu	,[(into-array Integer/TYPE [1 2]) (into-array [(int 1) (int 2)])]
21:08	clojurebot	[#<int[] [I@15cd9a> #<Integer[] [Ljava.lang.Integer;@145d424>]
21:09	ayrnieu	oh, you don't need the (int %) in the second case. Instead:
21:09	ayrnieu	,(into-array [1 2 "3"])
21:09	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: array element type mismatch
21:10	Chouser	right, you can't put primitives in a Clojure container.
21:10	hiredman	auto-bbbbbboxing
21:11	ozy`	,`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`a
21:11	clojurebot	clojure.core/a
21:12	hiredman	I should figure out why clojurebot evals that to clojure.core
21:12	ozy`	,'a
21:12	clojurebot	a
21:12	ozy`	,''a
21:12	clojurebot	(quote a)
21:12	Chouser	I think if you run Script, it defaults to clojure.core instead of user
21:12	ayrnieu	clojure.core vs. sandbox, ozy.
21:12	ozy`	,'~'a
21:12	clojurebot	(clojure.core/unquote (quote a))
21:12	ozy`	weird
21:12	ayrnieu	,ns
21:12	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
21:12	ayrnieu	,`~ns
21:12	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
21:13	hiredman	Chouser: I run Repl
21:13	Chouser	hm... oh, new thread?
21:13	ayrnieu	,::a
21:13	clojurebot	:clojure.core/a
21:13	Chouser	bindings go back to root
21:13	hiredman	yeah, but ns is bound to (create-ns 'sandbox)
21:14	hiredman	,ns
21:14	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
21:14	Chouser	before you 'read'?
21:14	hiredman	oh, I see
21:14	cp2	does anyone here have experience with lisp while on lsd?
21:17	hiredman	,~`a
21:17	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var clojure.core/unquote is unbound.
21:17	hiredman	,`~`a
21:17	clojurebot	sandbox/a
21:17	hiredman	shaza
21:26	Chouser	hiredman: good job!
21:30	ozy`	cp2: that would be fascinating, I'm sure...
21:30	ozy`	,`~`~(exit)
21:30	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: exit in this context
21:33	metaperl	could someone share their .emacs config to use clojure-mode.el?
21:33	metaperl	is command-line-args in the package user?
21:34	ayrnieu	http://paste.lisp.org/display/74008
21:34	ayrnieu	,(var command-line-args)
21:34	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/command-line-args
21:34	darrint	Is (connect) part of the clojure api?
21:34	cp2	ozy`, i havent done it, but it would be interesting
21:35	cp2	i remember the first time i used a computer while using lsd, it seemed like everything made sense
21:35	cp2	but of course i didnt remember many details, so meh ;(
21:35	ayrnieu	darrint - no.
21:36	darrint	How can I instrospect on the symbol and figure out where it came from?
21:36	ayrnieu	,(var command-line-args)
21:36	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/command-line-args
21:36	ayrnieu	,(meta (var command-line-args))
21:36	clojurebot	{:name command-line-args, :macro false, :doc "A sequence of the supplied command line arguments, or nil if\n none were supplied", :ns #<Namespace clojure.core>}
21:37	darrint	thanks
21:37	metaperl	ayrnieu: thank you, however, it appears that slime is under cvs version control - http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/ ... where did you get a git clone?
21:38	ayrnieu	metaperl - I didn't, but see http://github.com/search?q=slime
21:38	metaperl	your .emacs says ; git clone next to your load of slime
21:39	ayrnieu	that isn't mine.
21:39	metaperl	oh :)
21:39	darrint	now I get it.
21:50	lisppaste8	metaperl pasted "(require 'clojure-auto) is failing" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74844
21:53	ayrnieu	does ~/emacs-contrib/clojure-mode/clojure-auto.el exist?
21:53	hiredman	clojurebot: emacs?
21:53	clojurebot	but I like using notepad++!
21:54	durka42	clojurebot: vim?
21:54	clojurebot	Excuse me?
21:54	ayrnieu	oh, you don't need clojure-auto anyway; you already have the autoloads in your .emacs
21:54	durka42	clojurebot: vim is <reply>Gesundheit!
21:54	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
21:55	darrint	Is there a way to force gc from clojure?
21:55	ayrnieu	,(System/gc)
21:55	clojurebot	nil
21:55	durka42	i suppose Runtime.getRuntime().gc() would work
21:55	durka42	that too
21:55	hiredman	if there is a way from java there is from clojure
21:55	metaperl	ayrnieu: no ... I think that would be generated by the `update-directory-autoloads' function ... which I did not run
21:56	dreish	Occasionally I find microbenchmarks improve after a (System/gc) by more than the time (System/gc) itself took.
21:56	darrint	thanks
21:56	darrint	dreish, Occasionally I find that Qt apps hang for several seconds unless I call (System/gc) right after they exit. (maybe...)
21:57	dreish	Ooh. That's unfortunate.
21:57	dreish	At least there's a workaround.
21:57	darrint	I just keep putting (do (load-file "testqt.clj") (testqt/hello-graphics-view) (System/gc)) in the repl to test my app.
21:58	darrint	Well, got the long hang despite the gc. Mystery remains...
21:58	cooldude127	hey what shell does everybody use?
21:58	dreish	zsh
21:59	dreish	Bash has pretty much caught up thought.
21:59	cooldude127	dreish: i'm thinking about switching to zsh
21:59	dreish	s/t\././
21:59	durka42	i use zsh because i read this blog post about how awesome it is, but i haven't really found anything that's incredibly awesome
21:59	dreish	It's nice. I think Bash still only has one of the two =() <() forms.
21:59	durka42	the smarter tab completion is annoying as often as it's helpful
22:00	ayrnieu	I used to like zsh because I thought it cute to put my directory in RPROMPT; nowadays I do nothing special with the shell.
22:01	cooldude127	anyone have a good resource on how to customize zsh?
22:02	dreish	http://www.amazon.com/Bash-Z-Shell-Conquering-Command/dp/1590593766
22:02	ayrnieu	http://www.dotfiles.com/index.php?app_id=4
22:03	lisppaste8	metaperl pasted "java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/main" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74845
22:12	hiredman	ugh
22:13	hiredman	cooldude127: there are a few websites devoted to sharing .zshrc tips
22:13	cooldude127	http://www.wunjo.org/zsh-git/ this is pretty cool
22:13	hiredman	http://zshwiki.org/home/
22:14	hiredman	huh
22:15	hiredman	thats right, there is a zsh channel on freenode
22:16	cooldude127	that sounds right
22:20	cooldude127	holy jesus this is the most informative prompt i've ever seen
22:20	hiredman	:P
22:21	hiredman	the most important bit is a. hostname completion based ssh's known_hosts b. completiong of remote files for scp and rsync
23:11	metaperl	I'm not sure what the point of running ant was --- the downloaded clojure already had a clojure.jar in it...
23:13	cooldude127	lol
23:27	newb12345	user=> (use '[clojure.contrib.str-utils :onl (str-join)])
23:27	newb12345	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/str_utils__init.class or clojure/contrib/str_utils.clj on classpath: (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
23:27	newb12345	how do I make this work?
23:29	durka42	is clojure-contrib.jar on the classpath?
23:31	durka42	newb12345, how did you set up contrib
23:35	cooldude127	newb12345: (System/getProperty "java.class.path") <- what does that give you?
23:35	newb12345	I run it from a dire that contains both clojure.jar and clojure-contrib.jar
23:36	cooldude127	newb12345: that doesn't add them to the classpath
23:36	durka42	in that case make sure the classpath contains "." (the current dir)
23:36	durka42	also you should spell :only correctly, but that isn't the error
23:36	cooldude127	durka42: that won't include the jars
23:36	durka42	oh
23:36	durka42	meh
23:36	cooldude127	he needs to explicitly specify the jars
23:36	durka42	i need to update smuggler to take note of that
23:37	durka42	is there a comprehensive reference on this stuff, along with extdirs
23:39	cooldude127	i don't know one
23:39	cooldude127	this is just built-up experience
23:39	durka42	extdirs is recursive though, yes?
23:39	cooldude127	i have no idea
23:41	newb12345	user=> (System/getProperty "java.class.path")
23:41	newb12345	"clojure.jar"
23:41	cooldude127	newb12345: there is problem
23:41	durka42	how are you running clojure?
23:41	newb12345	java -jar clojure.jar
23:41	durka42	try:
23:42	durka42	java -cp clojure.jar:clojure-contrib.jar -jar clojure.jar
23:42	cooldude127	durka42: i'm not positive, but i think those options conflict
23:43	newb12345	x@x:~/build/clojure$ java -cp clojure.jar:clojure-contrib.jar -jar clojure.jar
23:43	newb12345	Clojure
23:43	newb12345	user=> (use '[clojure.contrib.str-utils :only (str-join)])
23:43	newb12345	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/str_utils__init.class or clojure/contrib/str_utils.clj on classpath: (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
23:43	durka42	oh, they do
23:43	durka42	java -cp clojure.jar:clojure-contrib.jar clojure.main
23:44	cooldude127	durka42: that one's a winner
23:44	durka42	(they conflict silently... java just ignores the classpath. classy.)
23:44	newb12345	works now
23:44	cooldude127	lol
23:44	newb12345	durka42: thanks
23:45	durka42	in fairness, the behavior is documented on the man page
23:46	cooldude127	durka42: no, that is not enough
23:57	knapr	if id o (let [x (ref a)] ...) and then change x or a, i dont change the other rght?
23:57	knapr	any plans on porting clojure to its own vm or to make it selfhosted?
23:58	durka42	as to the second question
23:58	durka42	i don't think so