#clojure – 2009-02-04

2009-02-04

00:06	cooldude127	knapr: well, you can't even even change a
00:07	hiredman	cooldude127: well, a could be a mutable java something or other
00:07	cooldude127	oh, true
00:07	hiredman	:P
00:07	cooldude127	that would change x tho, wouldn't it?
00:08	hiredman	no, x is a ref(erence)
00:08	hiredman	x -> a
00:08	cooldude127	well, it would change the value of @x then
00:08	hiredman	@x is a
00:08	cooldude127	exactly
00:09	hiredman	but up is down
00:09	hiredman	@x is not x it is a, so mutating a somehow would not change x
00:10	cooldude127	true
02:44	yangsx	sorry, but what's the name for progn in Clojure?
02:49	yangsx	ok, it's do.
03:02	gordongecko	do you guys think hacking Lisp is more fun than programming other languages? I feel so now, Lisp has something hackish and something elegant over it at the same time. it feels very unbeauracratic, i can do what i want. i really like python but it doesnt feel as fun anymore. but maybe it is just me learning smething new when using Lisp.
03:04	jdz_	gordongecko: do you expect anything but a positive answer to the question?
03:04	jdz_	(note the channel)
03:13	adakkak_	can someone tell me what defmulti is closest to in the imperative world and whether there is something similar in lisp?
03:14	jdz	adakkak_: it's kind of similar to defgeneric/defmethod of Common Lisp
03:14	jdz	adakkak_: with a bit of hand waving
03:15	adakkak_	is it similar to haskell or erlang style pattern recognition (I should not have asked how similar it is to lisp, since I do not know lisp :)
03:18	jdz	i think it is similar to pattern mathing in those languages, but not in the sense of destructuring, but fixed argument value checking
03:19	adakkak_	what do you mean by destructuring?
03:20	jdz	look for "destructuring" in http://clojure.org/special_forms
03:21	gordongecko	how do i flatten?
03:22	jdz	gordongecko: type "/leave", that should do it.
03:22	gordongecko	concat and reduce conj, neither works
03:24	felzix	I'm having classpath problems. I read that I shouldn't use add-classpath. What is the preferred method?
03:24	adakkak_	,(apply concat '(1,2,3,4,'(1,2,3)))
03:24	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Integer
03:25	jdz	felzix: provide classpath when starting clojure?
03:25	felzix	I'm doing so through slime.
03:26	jdz	felzix: you're using swank-clojure-extra-classpaths, right?
03:26	adakkak_	,(apply concat (list (list 1 2 3) (list 1 2 3) (list 1 2 3)))
03:26	clojurebot	(1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3)
03:26	felzix	yes
03:26	felzix	does that work for .clj's?
03:26	jdz	well yes
03:27	felzix	ok, thanks. something else is wrong, then, so I will investigate after sleep
03:27	jdz	felzix: you don't have to add the .clj's to classpath, only the directories they are in
03:27	felzix	oh
03:28	jdz	and the namespace resolution also works with hierarchical directory structure (same as Java)
03:28	felzix	so should I match namespace and file name?
03:29	jdz	http://clojure.org/libs
03:30	felzix	ah, thanks
03:30	felzix	I think that's the problem
03:40	gordongecko	why are hashmaps O(log32) and not O(1)?
03:49	jdz	gordongecko: you fail at trolling.
03:50	gordongecko	im not trolling im gordon gecko
03:50	gordongecko	im askign a question how is that trolling?
03:50	gordongecko	is it because hashmaps are functional inc lojrue and not mutable?
03:51	jdz	gordongecko: where have you seen O(1) hashmaps? O(1) inserts or lookups?
03:52	jdz	gordongecko: and the answer is simple anyway: it's that way (i don't really know if it is) because it is implemented that way.
03:52	gordongecko	yes insert and lookups, i thought that was standard fo rhashmaps?
03:53	jdz	gordongecko: was that an answer to a question?
03:53	gordongecko	yes but then why is it implemented that way would be the natural follow-up question?
03:54	gordongecko	what?
03:54	jdz	hashtables have never been constant time insert/lookup
03:56	gordongecko	no not amortized constand but most of the time constant
03:56	gordongecko	os log32 worst case scarnio then?
04:00	Lau_of_DK	Java gurus, why does this fail (.exec (Runtime/getRuntime) (into-array "ls") nil (java.io.File. "/home/lau/")) ?
04:01	gordongecko	whats wrong with this syntax: (throw (Exception. "Matrices not of the same size.")) ?
04:02	jdz	Lau_of_DK: do you really mean (into-array "ls")?
04:02	Lau_of_DK	nothing gordongecko
04:02	Lau_of_DK	jdz: Yes
04:03	Lau_of_DK	wait
04:03	Lau_of_DK	jdz: No I dont
04:03	Lau_of_DK	thanks
04:08	gordongecko	what is the right exception to throw when someone triees to multiply to matrices that are not valid to multiply with each other?
04:08	gordongecko	illegalargumentexception?
04:10	Lau_of_DK	I guess thats correct, though not very descriptive
04:10	Lau_of_DK	Anyone here very comfortable with Javas Process class ?
04:13	jdz	the documentation looks sane
04:13	hiredman	Lau_of_DK: into-array takes some kind of seq
04:13	hiredman	(into-array "ls")
04:13	hiredman	,(into-array "ls")
04:13	clojurebot	#<Character[] [Ljava.lang.Character;@1846aed>
04:14	hiredman	,(into-array ["ls"])
04:14	clojurebot	#<String[] [Ljava.lang.String;@18b0b4a>
04:14	Lau_of_DK	It sure does, but when a process takes longer than 5 secs to complet, it seems that the process just hangs there, and I dont know how to debug it
04:14	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: We've left the into-array discussion, it was just a mistake
04:14	hiredman	so you have
04:14	jdz	Lau_of_DK: does the process produce output or wait for input?
04:15	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: try ERC
04:15	hiredman	or maybe just ignore joins/parts
04:15	Lau_of_DK	jdc it just fires "git log --numstat" in a very big repo
04:15	Lau_of_DK	So its supposed to run for 10 - 15 secs, and then I can pull the Inputstream
04:16	jdz	Lau_of_DK: you should start reading the strem earlier because i think the process blocks on standard output (buffer being full)
04:16	Lau_of_DK	oh you may be right
04:18	Lau_of_DK	(let [ pr (.exec (Runtime/getRuntime)
04:18	Lau_of_DK	"git log --numstat"
04:18	Lau_of_DK	nil
04:18	Lau_of_DK	(java.io.File. "/home/lau/coding/bigrepo/")) ]
04:18	Lau_of_DK	(apply str
04:18	Lau_of_DK	(pmap char (stream-seq (.getInputStream pr)))))
04:18	Lau_of_DK
04:18	Lau_of_DK	Shouldnt this be as fast as I can go ?
04:19	jdz	don't you want lines from the output?
04:20	jdz	anyway reading character by character is usually not a very good idea
04:20	jdz	and then, why do you use pmap?
04:20	jdz	i'd expect the resulting string to be a permutation of what was output by the process actually
04:21	Lau_of_DK	Hmm :)
04:21	Lau_of_DK	It worked, BUT it shouldnt have printed the output
04:21	Lau_of_DK	:)
04:21	Lau_of_DK	Thanks for the tip jdz
04:21	jdz	did it print the output, or just return it?
04:22	Lau_of_DK	It returned it, but its close to 65k lines, so I should just have (count x) it
04:37	Lau_of_DK	dk.bestinclass.gitdoc> (count (get-log))
04:37	Lau_of_DK	2698927
04:37	Lau_of_DK
04:37	Lau_of_DK	Thats quite a few lines
04:37	jdz	is it lines or characters?
04:42	Lau_of_DK	its chars :)
04:57	Lau_of_DK	(doc apply)
04:57	clojurebot	Applies fn f to the argument list formed by prepending args to argseq.; arglists ([f args* argseq])
04:57	Lau_of_DK	Lazy?
05:01	liwp	are you asking if apply is lazy?
05:02	cgrand	if the seq passed to apply is lazy then it's the applied function that will drives evaluation of the seq
05:04	jdz	i don't agree
05:05	jdz	apply must fully realize the sequence before passing it to the function
05:05	hiredman	nope
05:05	jdz	i might be wrong, ofc
05:05	hiredman	apply is lazy
05:05	hiredman	this comes up every other day
05:05	jdz	(off to reading documentation)
05:06	hiredman	,(let [f (fn [& x] (first x))] (apply f (interate inc 0)))
05:06	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: interate in this context
05:06	hiredman	,(let [f (fn [& x] (first x))] (apply f (iterate inc 0)))
05:06	clojurebot	0
05:07	hiredman	^- apply to an infinite seq
05:07	hiredman	tadda
05:07	cgrand	it's a good candidate for FAS
05:07	cgrand	FAQ
05:08	Lau_of_DK	Ok - So apply is lazy, disregarding the supplied function ?
05:08	jdz	hiredman: (apply #(+ %1 %2) (iterate inc 0))
05:08	hiredman	jdz: what about it?
05:09	jdz	hiredman: it's a counterexapmle to yours
05:09	hiredman	,(apply #(+ %1 %2) (iterate inc 0)
05:09	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:EOF while reading
05:09	hiredman	,(apply #(+ %1 %2) (iterate inc 0))
05:09	jdz	gz, you blew up clojurebot
05:09	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
05:09	hiredman	sure I did
05:10	hiredman	anyway, if that wasn't an infinite seq, that would throw an exception
05:11	hiredman	,(apply #(+ %1 %2) [1 2 3])
05:11	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: sandbox$eval--1445$fn
05:11	jdz	hiredman: yes, but since it is infinite, apply tries to realize it
05:11	jdz	and blows up
05:11	hiredman	yeah, but that is the function's fault
05:12	jdz	how?
05:13	hiredman	if the function behaved like the one I used then apply would be lazy
05:13	cgrand	realizing the whole seq is the default behaviour for non var-arg functions only
05:14	jdz	well, only a small fraction of the functions behave like your function
05:14	cgrand	,(apply (fn [x y & etc] (+ x y)) (iterate inc 0))
05:14	clojurebot	1
05:14	hiredman	"the functions"
05:14	hiredman	I submit that there are an infinite amount of functions
05:15	hiredman	so a small fraction is, infact, a lot
05:15	jdz	you are not suggesting making all functions taking variable number of arguments, do you?
05:16	jdz	and ignoring extra arguments
05:16	Lau_of_DK	hehe
05:16	jdz	not only ignoring, but dropping them into oblivion
05:16	Lau_of_DK	I really appreciate you guys duking it out - I'm really happy now, I did one better than contrib, again :)
05:17	jdz	we're just having a friendly discussion here
05:18	cgrand	it's a bug on the clojure part to not throw an exception when you pass an infinite seq of args to a bounded-arity function
05:18	jdz	cgrand: how can you tell if a sequence is infinite?
05:19	jdz	or finite, for that matter
05:19	cgrand	you can't but you can tell if a function is vararg or not
05:19	jdz	cgrand: apply already does that
05:19	jdz	as far as can be deduced from the effects
05:20	cgrand	jdz: not quite
05:20	cgrand	when you call apply on a non-vargarg function
05:21	cgrand	clojure tries to realize the twenty first items
05:23	liwp	so it seems that apply realizes all fun non-rest fun args and then passes the rest of the args list to the rest arg
05:23	cgrand	if it get less than twenty items then everything is fine and you get an error if you passed the wrong number of args
05:23	liwp	i.e. apply is not lazy
05:24	liwp	it just happens to not both to go through the remaining arg list after it has realized the non-rest args for the fun
05:24	liwp	s/both/bother/
05:24	cgrand	if it gets 20 items, it realizes the whole seq and pass it to the function (remember that we are in the non-vararg case, the programmer is not intended to pass an infinite seq)
05:24	liwp	that's right
05:24	liwp	which also implies that it's not lazy
05:25	Lau_of_DK	I can tell you have I've just made a parser, which uses apply #func 2 times during the parsing over 2.5 million characters, if both applys realized the whole stream, it would take forever, but it doesnt
05:26	liwp	surely you do not have a fn with 2.5M args?
05:26	Lau_of_DK	Its a stream
05:26	liwp	i.e. some of the fn args are either seqs or a rest arg
05:26	liwp	how do you call apply? can you show the code?
05:27	Lau_of_DK	(pmap #(apply concat %)
05:27	Lau_of_DK	(partition 2
05:27	Lau_of_DK	(partition-by #(re-seq #"^commit .*" %)
05:27	Lau_of_DK	(line-seq (BufferedReader.
05:27	Lau_of_DK	(StringReader.
05:27	Lau_of_DK	(apply str
05:27	Lau_of_DK	(pmap char (stream-seq
05:27	Lau_of_DK	(.getInputStream pr))))))))))))
05:27	Lau_of_DK
05:27	jdz	applying a function and calling it are different things
05:27	jdz	well, kinda
05:27	cgrand	liwp: yes it's lazyness for the rest arg (other args have to be computed, there's no thunks in Clojure)
05:27	Lau_of_DK	No comprende senior?
05:28	liwp	cgrand: AFAICT we're in agreement here...
05:28	Lau_of_DK	isnt that the definition of lazy? That the car is computed and the cdr (rest) is not ?
05:28	cgrand	liwp: I agree :-)
05:28	liwp	;)
05:29	Lau_of_DK	dk.bestinclass.gitdoc> (time (def all-commits (pmap build-struct (get-log))))
05:29	Lau_of_DK	"Elapsed time: 67989.686049 msecs"
05:29	Lau_of_DK
05:29	Lau_of_DK	This is a bit much though
05:29	Lau_of_DK	For 2.6M chars, 1860 commits.
05:30	cgrand	Lau_of_DK: why are you doing (apply str (pmap char... ?
05:30	achim_p	Lau_of_DK: are you sure you need pmap?
05:30	achim_p	:)
05:30	jdz	Lau_of_DK: how about (... (line-seq (new BufferedReader (.getInputStream pr)))?
05:30	Lau_of_DK	achim_p: It slows down alot without pmap
05:32	cgrand	Lau_of_DK: pmap does not guarantee the order of the result and your function (char) is inexpensive
05:32	Lau_of_DK	jdz, then it breaks
05:32	Lau_of_DK	k
05:33	Lau_of_DK	jdz: But at the time of breaking, I actually imagine apply str has realized the whole seq...
05:33	Lau_of_DK	cgrand: pmap => map gets it to 37 secs, instead of 67..... suprising to me
05:34	Chousuke	I don't think str is lazy :/
05:34	Lau_of_DK	achim_p: I appologize :)
05:34	Lau_of_DK	Chousuke: I think youre right
05:35	cgrand	pmap incurs a parallelization overhead which for such a simple function as 'char isn't worth it
05:36	Lau_of_DK	ok, I thought I had to consider both the function and the amount of data, and since the amount is unpredictable, so I opted for pmap
05:37	achim_p	Lau_of_DK: no need for that :)
05:39	cgrand	Lau_of_DK: can you paste the code somewhere?
05:39	jdz	(let [pr (.exec (Runtime/getRuntime) (into-array ["ls" "-l" "-h"]))]
05:39	jdz	(line-seq (new java.io.BufferedReader (new java.io.InputStreamReader (.getInputStream pr)))))
05:39	Lau_of_DK	2 sec
05:41	Lau_of_DK	cgrand: Its in engine.clj : http://github.com/Lau-of-DK/gitdoc/tree/master
05:41	jdz	there, no apply, no pmap, no waste
05:42	Lau_of_DK	cgrand: If you try to run it, to avoid the UI, just use ($set :path "/path/to/repo") and (get-log)
05:42	Lau_of_DK	or (pmap build-struct (get-log))
05:44	Lau_of_DK	jdz: look at the code on Github, yours is what I have, but it doesnt fit with my parser
05:45	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: If you cut'n'paste functions from contrib I think you need to identify the copyrights separately
05:45	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: the EPL states "Contributors may not remove or alter any copyright notices contained within the"
05:45	jdz	Lau_of_DK: where exactly is a code like mine?
05:46	Lau_of_DK	Chousuke: I think they're under the same license, both projects
05:46	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: they are, but there are numerous copyrights
05:46	Lau_of_DK	jdz: Where I pull the stream, I use BufReader/StrReader
05:46	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: and you can't remove those :/
05:46	Lau_of_DK	Chousuke: Ok, I'll rewrite it a little, so its no longer contribs :)
05:46	jdz	Lau_of_DK: what StrReader are you talking about?
05:46	Lau_of_DK	StringReader.
05:47	jdz	my code does not have any StringReader
05:47	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: I don't think that works :P
05:47	Lau_of_DK	oh..
05:47	Lau_of_DK	Chousuke: It'll work
05:47	Lau_of_DK	jdz: I see now
05:47	lisppaste8	cgrand pasted "get-log without map nor apply str" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74861
05:47	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: see, it would be much easier just to use contrib as a dependency.
05:48	Lau_of_DK	jdz: 1 sec, youre a genious
05:49	Lau_of_DK	Thanks cgrand, yours is similar to jdz's i see
05:49	jdz	(i fail to see similarity, though)
05:49	Lau_of_DK	You use InputStreamReader, he uses StreamReader
05:49	jdz	well, ok, i failed
05:50	jdz	yeah, i'm not used to all the Java stream{reade/writer}moreRandomStuff
05:50	cgrand	err StreamReader does not exist
05:51	cgrand	InputStreamReader is what I meant
05:52	Lau_of_DK	k, then to me they look the same, running at 1 sec
05:52	Lau_of_DK	thats an improvement of 66 secs... thats pretty wild
05:53	Lau_of_DK	How do I reach that conclusion myself the next time?
05:53	jdz	Lau_of_DK: try not to overengineer
05:53	jdz	i'm still not sure that function does what it should
05:54	Lau_of_DK	jdz: I really dont - If picture the solution, and write it up, then I usually hit 45 type-casting errors, and I try to accomodate = just to get it running
05:54	jdz	but that maybe because i have not yet used partition
05:54	Lau_of_DK	jdz: It works perfectly
05:55	jdz	Lau_of_DK: that approach of yours is wrong. if something does not work you first explain to yourself why it does not, then you should be able to fix it. if after fixing it it still fails, return to step one.
05:55	Lau_of_DK	That fits pretty well with something cgrand told me a while ago... its back to the basics I believe :)
05:55	jdz	randomly poking code until it seems to do what you want is what Perl coders do\
05:56	Lau_of_DK	that was cruel jdz, just plain cruel
05:56	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: you might also try breaking the function into smaller pieces
05:56	jdz	well, you don't want to associate yourself with Perl programmers, now do you? :)
05:56	Chousuke	for example, returning the line-seq should probably be separated from chopping it into commits.
05:57	Lau_of_DK	true, it needs refactoring
05:57	Chousuke	Though I take that to the extreme sometimes :P
05:58	Chousuke	I write 5 one-liner functions just so I can make the final function read easily and be small as well :P
05:59	Chousuke	I just find it easier to follow if each sub-operation has its own name that specifies what the sub-operation is, instead of just code that does it.
06:00	Lau_of_DK	Just remember, that when I read your code, I have to go look up all of your smaller function to understand to final cute function...
06:00	Lau_of_DK	Doesnt always work well in teams
06:00	Chousuke	well, that depends on how well I've named them :)
06:01	Chousuke	in functional programs you don't need to look them up if they're named well enough and you can be reasonably convinced that they work correctly.
06:01	Lau_of_DK	Yes I do, otherwise I'll violate cgrands principle, that I should understand every I do
06:01	Lau_of_DK	And I dare not do that
06:02	jdz	if you can't think of a name for a function you want to write then the function is wrong (and doomed to failure anyway)
06:02	jdz	(most of the time)
06:02	Chousuke	you wouldn't really understand anything useful by looking at how the functions are implemented.
06:03	Chousuke	if the naming is not a failure, your conclusion would be that it does what its name says :)
06:03	jdz	Lau_of_DK: also, the name of the function discussed here should be something like "get-commits"
06:04	jdz	because otherwise it contradicts with the function documentation
06:07	gordongecko	do you unittest or prove?
06:08	jdz	gordongecko: do you prove your unittests?
06:08	gordongecko	do you test your proofs?
06:09	gordongecko	i always found the idea of unittests a bit insane.
06:09	gordongecko	and stupid
06:09	jdz	why?
06:10	jdz	(i don't)
06:10	gordongecko	but i dont have the mathskills to prove all my code yet
06:10	knapr	and youd end up doing loads of work it turns out you dont have to
06:12	jdz	knapr: and then after 2 years of development you wish you had written those tests but can't afford to start doing it because all your code is a big pile of spaghetti
06:12	Lau_of_DK	jdz: Why bring Ruby into this?
06:13	jdz	huh, where?
06:13	Lau_of_DK	you said spagehetti code.. come on, keep up
06:13	jdz	i mean, it wasn't be :)
06:13	jdz	*me even
06:13	jdz	spaghetti code is language independent!
06:14	Lau_of_DK	ok, we'll cancel the jokes for today :)
06:14	p_l	jdz: And if written in certain way, can still be proven correct with little amount of testing :P
06:16	jdz	p_l: i thought that spaghetti code is a style of writing code in certain way. did not know there are still intricate ways in what the spaghetti code differs...
06:17	p_l	jdz: when most of it can be mathematically proven... why not? There's always "spaghetti on crack sprinkled with crackpot fiction in comments" style
06:17	jdz	oh, right. forgot about spaghetti code written in Haskell.
06:20	AWizzArd	Well, it is basically nonsense about this provability of code. Noone is sitting down, proving that his 20k LOC are correct.
06:20	AWizzArd	For type safety - sure, a lot can be done there.
06:21	AWizzArd	But if the program is actually doing what we want is very different.
06:21	jdz	any haskeller can tell you that if his program compiles it is correct
06:21	AWizzArd	;-)
06:22	AWizzArd	well, by that logic it is also true for any other program in any language.
06:22	AWizzArd	When a Clojure program compiles, it is also correct.
06:22	jdz	hence all ruby programs are incorrect because they don't compile! yay, proven!
06:23	AWizzArd	What did Morpheus say to Neo? "Welcome in the real world."
06:23	p_l	lol
06:28	p_l	as for "program in <lang. with very strong typesystem> is proven correct when it compiles"... it reminds of a joke about ML, where it was "It's proven bugfree when it compiles, however you never get rid of type errors so your program never compiles"
06:34	metaperl	Could someone please help me get slime and clojure working ... here is my problem - http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/39ff69778f8ac93a
06:39	Lau_of_DK	metaperl: How comfortable are you with emacs?
06:40	metaperl	Lau_of_DK: I have used it since 1992
06:41	Lau_of_DK	metaperl: Then you'll want this: http://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/tree/installer
06:41	Lau_of_DK	That'll try to download the latest clojure/contrib/clojure-mode/slime and configure them/suggest how to configure them
06:47	metaperl	Lau_of_DK: are you being serious? That is just a single .el file
06:47	gordongecko	if doing (def a (ref m)), does changing one of a or m chnage the other?
06:48	Lau_of_DK	metaperl: Yes I am, put the file in your load-path, require it, and M-x clojure-install
06:48	metaperl	oh
06:48	Lau_of_DK	gordongecko: @a will change if you change m
06:48	metaperl	wow, the file itself says none of that
06:49	Lau_of_DK	metaperl: Its a work in progress, the author camps in here, look at the very bottom for the definitions
06:50	Lau_of_DK	user> (def m 5)
06:50	Lau_of_DK	user> (def a (ref m))
06:50	Lau_of_DK	user> (def m 10)
06:50	Lau_of_DK	user> @a
06:50	Lau_of_DK	5
06:50	Lau_of_DK
06:50	AWizzArd	@a is a reader macro for (deref a)
06:51	metaperl	Lau_of_DK: the clojure website points you to this - http://github.com/jochu/clojure-mode/tree/master
06:57	metaperl	this is freakin weird. everytime I try to get technomancy's version, I pull down jochu's version instead
07:00	Lau_of_DK	Look at .git/config - It probably still point to Jochu
07:00	lisppaste8	gekko pasted "gauss jordan elimination" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74864
07:00	gordongecko	why isnt the ref being changed?
07:00	gordongecko	why isnt the ref being changed? ^^
07:01	ayrnieu	the second (def m 10) does not change the m of the first (def m 5); m's value is already irrelevant by the second def of m. (def a (ref m)) is simply (def a (ref 5)).
07:01	Lau_of_DK	(doc ref-set)
07:01	clojurebot	Must be called in a transaction. Sets the value of ref. Returns val.; arglists ([ref val])
07:14	gordongecko	was that for me?
07:14	gordongecko	i saw i had some errors (and somehow they were never acknowledged, makes me msis haskella little)
07:14	gordongecko	but it still doesnt work
07:14	ayrnieu	ask a question, then.
07:16	gordongecko	well, it seems nothing happens to the refs, and why sint stuff printed out?
07:17	ayrnieu	OK, I'll get right on using my psychic powers to see the program you're having trouble with, what you want to do, the refs you mean, the stuff you want printed, etc.
07:18	cgrand	gordongecko: for is not a loop, use doseq instead. But really there is too many mutations, you need to understand how tio turn imperative for loops into reduces
07:19	gordongecko	it was psoted above...
07:20	gordongecko	http://paste.lisp.org/display/74864
07:21	lisppaste8	gekko annotated #74864 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74864#1
07:21	ayrnieu	fine. Starting the top: (dosync alter maxrow (fn [] y)) should be (dosync (alter maxrow (fn [_] y))) . Or you can use set-ref instead of that fn
07:21	gordongecko	yeha i changed that, see annotation
07:22	ayrnieu	no, you changed one part of it.
07:22	gordongecko	what does _ mean?
07:23	ayrnieu	(fn [_] y) is equivalpent to (fn [a] y). It's just a throway binding.
07:23	ayrnieu	,((fn [_ x _ _] x) 1 2 3 4)
07:23	clojurebot	2
07:24	rhickey	gordongecko: If you really want to learn Clojure and functional programming, I'd advise you stay away from refs/vars/atoms/agents/set! at first
07:24	ayrnieu	the function your passing should take the present value of the ref as an argument.
07:24	ayrnieu	ugh. you're.
07:28	lisppaste8	metaperl pasted "How to get technomancy's clojure mode working under win32" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74865
07:31	Lau_of_DK	metaperl: Im glad it works - that approach goes for Linux as well
07:31	lisppaste8	gekko annotated #74864 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74864#2
07:32	metaperl	yes, I had to unzip the technomancy git directory...
07:32	metaperl	git clone simply would keep getting jochu's stuff! it was crazy
07:32	Lau_of_DK	Weird
07:33	cgrand	rhickey: (if you had time to look at it) can I open an issue (and attach a patch) for the bug with zip/remove?
07:34	rhickey	cgrand: yes, thanks
07:49	knapr	ah of cim not usign dorun
07:50	knapr	is doseq = dorun for?
07:51	rhickey	knapr: logically, yes, but doseq will be faster as it doesn't produce a lazy sequence that you don't need.
07:51	knapr	(dorun (for [x vlah] (do ....))) is that (doseq ...) ?
07:52	ayrnieu	,(doc doseq)
07:52	clojurebot	"([seq-exprs & body]); Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with bindings and filtering as provided by \"for\". Does not retain the head of the sequence. Returns nil."
07:53	gordongecko	a common idiom is (dorun (for (do /// how do i replace that?
07:53	gordongecko	doseq?
07:55	ayrnieu	,(doseq [x (range 10)] (print x))
07:55	clojurebot	0123456789
07:59	gordongecko	how the hell can:
07:59	gordongecko	(def a (ref 10))
07:59	gordongecko	(doseq [x [1 2 3]] (dosync (alter a (fn [y] (+ y @a)))))
07:59	gordongecko	user=> @a
07:59	gordongecko	80
07:59	gordongecko	?
07:59	lisppaste8	gekko annotated #74864 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74864#3
08:00	ayrnieu	gordon, what is y bound to?
08:00	durka42	the fn you pass to alter gets @a as its parameter
08:00	durka42	so you double a three times
08:01	durka42	10 * 2^3 = 80
08:01	rhickey	gordongecko: stop using refs
08:01	jdz	and the looping variable x is not used
08:01	gordongecko	im using + not *...
08:02	gordongecko	i see now
08:03	gordongecko	rhickey: well it is pretty hard to redo some stuff into functional stuff
08:04	AWizzArd	just requires some training.. after a while it will feel natural
08:04	AWizzArd	And it is difficult to not do it functional.
08:04	AWizzArd	Refs are cool for keeping state in your app. It is much easier than keeping it around in every function as a parameter.
08:04	rhickey	gordongecko: (reduce + 10 [1 2 3])
08:04	jdz	gordongecko: you will never learn to do it in functional style if you keep doing it in imperative style
08:05	AWizzArd	A few days ago I translated a Lisp program with 53 SETFs in it into Clojure. I did not need one ref.
08:05	jdz	AWizzArd: i'm pretty sure they were not needed in the original program either?
08:05	AWizzArd	Not needed, right.
08:06	jdz	one can program fortran in any programming language.
08:06	AWizzArd	But it just makes sense to write idiomatic (vs idiotic) code in the host lang.
08:07	Chousuke	gordongecko: you can't start looking for a functional approach by simply translating an imperative algorithm :/
08:09	Chousuke	I wrote a functional matrix multiplication thingy (it's probably too slow for real use because it uses vectors of vectors, but it seems to work)
08:13	Chousuke	http://gist.github.com/58093 like this
08:14	Chousuke	it might be faster to use a similar approach, but with java arrays and some copying.
08:14	rhickey	ILC registration open - no per diem rate, but conference early reg pretty cheap (IMO): http://www.regonline.com/builder/site/Default.aspx?eventid=688757
08:15	AWizzArd	Do you plan to talk about Clojure there?
08:17	rhickey	AWizzArd: I'm doing a full-day tutorial
08:17	AWizzArd	uh thumbs up
08:19	gordongecko	Chousuke: i did normal matrix mult, though using refs to, i giot it haskell usifn rlistcomprehensiosn though
08:21	Chousuke	try translating that haskell into clojure
08:21	AWizzArd	rhickey: is nil in the new lazy filter still false?
08:22	ayrnieu	(if nil 1 2) still evaluates to 2
08:22	rhickey	AWizzArd: you mean in the lazy branch? yes, nil is still false :)
08:22	AWizzArd	so would it support (filter #(re-find #"xyz") (duck-streams/read-line "myfile"))?
08:22	AWizzArd	ah good
08:27	lisppaste8	gekko annotated #74864 with "fixed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74864#4
08:27	gordongecko	there it is
08:27	gordongecko	unfunctional but functioning
08:28	gordongecko	not sure if it gives the right results though :)
08:28	rhickey	seeing code like that in Clojure makes me sad :(
08:32	Chousuke	refactored the matrix multiplication a bit, should be even easier to understand it now
08:35	AWizzArd	rhickey: you will see it more and more often, but at the same time the quality of code will also go up.
08:35	AWizzArd	The newcomers to functional programming or programming in general will have their problems.
08:36	Chousuke	though, hm... (count m1) is not probably correct for row-width for other than square matrices :P
08:36	AWizzArd	But luckily a person is a newbi only for the shortest amount of time of her programmer carreer.
08:39	AWizzArd	if you want to transpose a matrix you can do it in an elegant way, as Peter Norvig suggests.
08:39	AWizzArd	If you have (def some-matrix '[[1 0 0 0] [1 0 0 0] [1 0 0 0]])
08:39	AWizzArd	and (defn matrix-transpose [matrix] (when matrix (apply map vector matrix)))
08:39	AWizzArd	then you can simply (matrix-transpose some-matrix) ==> ([1 1 1] [0 0 0] [0 0 0] [0 0 0])
08:40	gordongecko	i use hashmaps
08:40	gordongecko	good later on for sparse ones
08:40	gordongecko	and seems to simplify some things too
08:41	gordongecko	inv(s.matrix([[2,3],[1,-1]])) -> array([[ 0.2, 0.6], [ 0.2, -0.4]]) in scipy, but i get: ((2 0) (0 -5/2))
08:42	gordongecko	hmm and the algorith i translated from gives: [[1, 0], [1, 1]]
08:42	gordongecko	bah!
08:42	AWizzArd	then the algorithm is not translated yet
09:11	cooldude127	gordongecko: what method are you using for inverses?
09:12	AWizzArd	When I have a list of vectors x and want to collect from each vector of x the 1st, 2nd and 5th element, is then (map #(vector (% 1) (% 2) (% 5)) x) the best approach?
09:13	cooldude127	AWizzArd: seems like the simplest
09:16	Chousuke	,(let [vectors [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]]] (for [x vectors] (map #(get x %) [0 2])))
09:16	clojurebot	((1 3) (4 6))
09:16	Chousuke	AWizzArd: ^
09:18	Chousuke	or #(x %) instead of #(get x %)
09:18	ayrnieu	,(map (fn [[a b _ _ e & _]] (vector a b e)) [[1 2 3 4 5 6] [-1 -2 -3 -4 -5 -6]])
09:18	clojurebot	([1 2 5] [-1 -2 -5])
09:22	AWizzArd	Chousuke: why you prefer it with get?
09:23	Chousuke	that was just the first thing that came to my mind :)
09:24	AWizzArd	rhickey: can we maybe also get ("012345" 2) ==> \2 ? :)
09:25	Chousuke	I think that's unlikely, as Strings don't implement IFn :)
09:27	Chouser	clojurebot should have a nice set of sample data pre-defined
09:27	gordongecko	user=> (map (partial apply +) [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]]) vs user=> (map #(reduce + %) [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]])
09:27	gordongecko	why partial apply?
09:28	Chousuke	I wonder. :p
09:28	gordongecko	cooldude127: gauss-jordan elim
09:28	rhickey	,(map (fn [{a 0 b 1 c 4}] [a b c]) [[1 2 3 4 5 6] [-1 -2 -3 -4 -5 -6]])
09:28	clojurebot	([1 2 5] [-1 -2 -5])
09:28	Chouser	,(let [vectors [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]]] (for [x vectors] (map x [0 2])))
09:28	clojurebot	((1 3) (4 6))
09:28	Chousuke	I edited the matrix thingy not to use (partial apply +)
09:28	Chousuke	I also fixed some bugs...
09:30	rhickey	ayrnieu: associative destructuring works on vectors too
09:30	rhickey	ayrnieu: easier than _s when you want the 17th thing
09:31	ayrnieu	:-)
09:33	zakwilson	I remember seeing an addon or patch for Arc that allowed user-defined behavior for any type when it appears at the head of a list. I thought it was a cool idea, though I have no idea how practical it would be to implement something like that in Clojure.
09:34	rhickey	zakwilson: I'm not doing that in Clojure for perf reasons - if you want to make a callable thing you can derive from IFn, but yes, that rules out adding callability to String
09:35	AWizzArd	ah okay, because Strings are final?
09:36	rhickey	AWizzArd: even if they weren't, you get Strings from others who wouldn't know to create a ClojureString for you
09:36	AWizzArd	ic
09:37	rhickey	It's an inherent weakness to 'just derive from my interface' design - no one outside of a captive audience will
09:37	Chouser	wasn't making regex's callable on the todo at some point?
09:38	rhickey	Chouser: it has come up - what would they do?
09:38	ayrnieu	,(proxy [java.util.regex.Pattern] [])
09:38	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission accessDeclaredMembers)
09:39	ayrnieu	OK. Or: java.lang.VerifyError: Cannot inherit from final class
09:39	Chouser	I've not been sure, but I think re-seq would be pretty good.
09:39	rhickey	Chouser: those are the 2 issues, it won't be a Pattern anymore, and what to do when called
09:40	rhickey	The process has stalled here every time :)
09:41	Chouser	re-seq would be a fine thing for it to do, but I'm not sure that's worth making it no longer a Pattern
09:43	gordongecko	why do you pople prefer clojure over haskell? for java interop?
09:44	AWizzArd	Because it is a Lisp, dynamic, is hosted on the more practical VM and because it is easier.
09:44	Chouser	I started learning Clojure before Haskell because I require macros.
09:44	zakwilson	For syntactic abstraction and dynamic typing.
09:44	zakwilson	Or, as AWizzArd said: because it's a Lisp.
09:44	ayrnieu	gordon - I despise Haskell.
09:45	zakwilson	I'd like to learn Haskell, actually. Still, I get the sense that its design isn't about me getting things done with as little fuss as possible.
09:46	knapr	then what is it?
09:46	knapr	it is about getting stuff done correctly and having your program perform well on several cores
09:46	zakwilson	Haskell, or Clojure?
09:48	AWizzArd	knapr: when we want stuff get done correctly, then we better come up with an AI system that is actually cappable of programming. Humans are so lousy at it, we will never get complex systems right without help.
09:49	Chouser	"correctly enough"
09:49	AWizzArd	right
10:32	gnuvince	zakwilson: I believe it's as little fuss as can be (currently) managed by a static typing system
10:37	AWizzArd	clojurebot: max people
10:37	clojurebot	max people is 137
10:44	AWizzArd	slightly offtopic: can one change event handler for swing objects during runtime? For example the action event for a button.
10:46	opqdonut	should be possible
10:46	achim_p	AWizzArd: you an dynamically add/remove listeners
10:46	opqdonut	there might of course be some concurrency issues
11:00	brianh	AWizzArd: if you haven't seen it, you need to check this out http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc/articles/threads/threads1.html#event_dispatching
11:19	Chouser	doesn't "continue" seem like a more accurate name than "restart"?
11:19	Chouser	though I suppose that's in danger of sounding like a continuation
11:20	brianh	Chouser: exactly what i was thinking
11:20	Chouser	which?
11:20	brianh	sounds like continuation
11:20	Chouser	"proceed"?
11:21	danlarkin	-1 for proceed
11:22	Chouser	"restart" is better? it sounds like something's going to be done over again, like a retry. But that's not accurate.
11:23	brianh	proceed sounds too much like a mutex/threading kind of thing
11:24	Chouser	uncatch
11:24	brianh	teleport
11:24	danlarkin	continue sounds fine to me imo
11:24	brianh	:)
11:24	Chouser	yeah, teleport gives about the right feeling.
11:24	Chouser	danlarkin: why is continue better than proceed?
11:25	brianh	beam as in 'Beam me up Scotty"
11:25	brianh	k i'll stop now...
11:26	brianh	is 'transfer' already taken?
11:27	danlarkin	Chouser: I guess just the aesthetics of the word
11:27	Chouser	well, I'll proceed with continue for now. We can restart this conversation later.
11:30	cooldude127	are sets in clojure ordered?
11:30	gnuvince	sorted-sets are
11:30	gnuvince	,(set [1 2 3])
11:30	clojurebot	#{1 2 3}
11:30	gnuvince	,(sorted-set [1 2 3])
11:30	clojurebot	#{[1 2 3]}
11:30	gnuvince	,(sorted-set 1 2 3)
11:30	clojurebot	#{1 2 3}
11:30	gnuvince	I guess my first example wasn't the best one
11:31	opqdonut	:D
11:31	cooldude127	eh, they probably aren't right for what i need
11:31	gnuvince	,(set [:a :b :c])
11:31	clojurebot	#{:a :b :c}
11:31	cooldude127	i think vectors may make more sense
11:31	gnuvince	damnit
11:34	Chouser	,#{-2 -1 0 1 2}
11:34	clojurebot	#{0 1 2 -2 -1}
11:35	cooldude127	ahhh something messed up clojure and slime?
11:35	cooldude127	it says evaluation aborted at every expression
11:36	cooldude127	java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/lang/StringSeq
11:37	jbondeson	cooldude127: are you running off of one of the branches?
11:38	cooldude127	jbondeson: i don't think so
11:38	cooldude127	i'm using clojure-install
11:38	jbondeson	i just did a full rebuild of everything and it works for me.
11:38	boxbeat	are there arrays in clojure?
11:38	cooldude127	boxbeat: vectors
11:38	boxbeat	make-array creates a java array
11:38	cooldude127	or you can use java arrays
11:38	boxbeat	how do i index it?
11:39	jbondeson	nth
11:39	boxbeat	or it is not for use in pure clojure just for java interop?
11:39	cooldude127	boxbeat: ,([1 2 3] 0)
11:39	cooldude127	,([1 2 3] 0)
11:39	clojurebot	1
11:39	jbondeson	or that shortcut
11:39	cooldude127	,([1 2 3] 2)
11:39	clojurebot	3
11:39	boxbeat	yes but the array
11:39	cooldude127	boxbeat: don't use it for pure clojure
11:39	cooldude127	use vectors
11:40	boxbeat	i want to create a videoplayer
11:40	boxbeat	is that hard?
11:41	cooldude127	boxbeat: probably
11:41	jbondeson	depends how heavily you lean on existing java media libraries
11:41	cooldude127	jmf might be helpful
11:43	jbondeson	you'll probably spend most of your time just with java interop and ui stuff.
11:43	jbondeson	video players are exactly a very functional problem.
11:43	cooldude127	jbondeson: found my problem. i had bad form in my file i had compiled
11:44	jbondeson	are -> aren't
11:44	jbondeson	cooldude127: sweet.
11:53	boxbeat	jbondeson: how come?
11:53	boxbeat	if im just doing the interface (not the decoding) then it is just heavy java interop no?
11:53	boxbeat	is doing the coding in Clojure a good idea(if doing it form scratch)?
11:54	Chouser	boxbeat: you're going to implement a video codec?
11:55	jbondeson	if all you're doing is the interface, then clojure isn't really your best bet. if you were implementing a new codec, then that would be more suitable to clojure (depending on the codec)
11:56	Chouser	jbondeson: you don't like Clojure for UIs?
11:57	jbondeson	haven't done much of it, but from what i've seen you're not exactly doing much different from java
11:59	Chouser	but at least you have macros to reduce repitition, unlike in Java.
11:59	jbondeson	true.
12:01	jbondeson	some of the cell stuff can be nicely integrated into UI as well.
12:01	jbondeson	i'm actually just about to put together some visualizations for my swarm code, so i guess i'll know first hand all the difficulties.
12:03	jbondeson	was there ever a consensus on the form removal reader macro?
12:03	boxbeat	i did an mp3player in clojure using swing +contrib-miglayout. while the code is prob shorter than it is in Java it felt like i was mainly wrapping java code and some things was hard to do from Clojure + I actually was missing checked exceptions.
12:04	boxbeat	I can call clojure code form Java if i do gen-class, right?
12:04	boxbeat	so codec in clojure, UI in Java...
12:04	jbondeson	yes
12:04	jbondeson	you could
12:04	djpowell	or you can call clojure code from java dynamically, in a similar way to clojure.lang.Script does
12:08	AWizzArd	In Java it is: new javax.swing.filechooser.FileNameExtensionFilter("JPEG file", "jpg", "jpeg"); Now I try in Clojure: (javax.swing.filechooser.FileNameExtensionFilter. "JPEG file" "jpg" "jpeg") which does not work. How can I make it work?
12:09	djpowell	it should work - what is the error?
12:11	AWizzArd	One can paste it into the repl.. it says it doesn't find a right constructor.
12:11	djpowell	ah
12:11	AWizzArd	In the javadocs Sun lists the method header as FileNameExtensionFilter(String description, String... extensions)
12:11	djpowell	i see, that method has varargs
12:11	AWizzArd	the ... looks strange
12:11	AWizzArd	yes
12:11	AWizzArd	I guess :-)
12:11	djpowell	varargs in Java are syntactic sugar for String[] extensions
12:12	djpowell	so you need to make an array for the last parameter
12:12	Chouser	(javax.swing.filechooser.FileNameExtensionFilter. "JPEG file" (into-array ["jpg" "jpeg"]))
12:15	jbondeson	that's a bit ugly
12:16	walters	seems like a clojure bug
12:16	AWizzArd	works though
12:16	AWizzArd	thx
12:18	jbondeson	you gotta love the ability to get a 25% increase by adding a 'p' in one place...
12:18	cooldude127	jbondeson: what?
12:20	jbondeson	just changed a map to a pmap in one of my functions to parallelize it
12:21	jbondeson	cut the runtime by 25%
12:21	AWizzArd	nice
12:21	jbondeson	my swarms are swarmier than ever
12:21	AWizzArd	what are you doing?
12:21	AWizzArd	simulation?
12:21	AWizzArd	GA? GP?
12:22	jbondeson	particle swarms
12:22	opqdonut	swarm optimization?
12:22	djpowell	i was wondering if wrapping a seque around some resultset-seq derived sequence might smooth out the doing cpu vs waiting on blocking io from the database, but i guess jdbc drivers do a load of buffering anyway
12:22	jbondeson	opqdonut: yes, one of the varieties.
12:23	opqdonut	sweet, what's the problem?
12:23	jbondeson	right now i'm just running on some test problems to make sure my port works.
12:24	jbondeson	I've used it for neural network training before, much faster than many BP methods
12:24	opqdonut	interesting, I guess I should try that
12:25	jbondeson	i did the NN+Swarm in C a couple years ago, going to try to put together a functional NN library in clojure. That should be fun.
12:25	jbondeson	for fun i'm going to see how the PS works with the mona lisa problem that's all the rage
12:27	opqdonut	be sure to blog about it ;)
12:27	jbondeson	oh so no.
12:27	opqdonut	(j/k)
12:27	BigTom	jbondeson: hasn't someone done a clojure version? (he saysjoining halfway througha conversation)
12:28	jbondeson	yeah, but he used a GA-ish algorithm.
12:28	BigTom	ah
12:28	jbondeson	just want to see how the PS would perform. it's good at numerical optimization, so the fun part is reworking the problem to be easily optimized by a PS
12:29	BigTom	PS?
12:29	jbondeson	sorry, particle swarm
12:29	BigTom	Ah, interesting
12:34	BigTom	Can everyone bear it if I ask another swank/slime question?
12:35	BigTom	I can do the basics now but I am having a problem with dependencies (in clojurebox on windows)
12:37	BigTom	I have put this in may .emacs (add-to-list 'swank-clojure-extra-classpaths "C:\dev\clojure\compojure\compojure\deps\fact.clj")
12:37	BigTom	as suggested in th ereadme
12:37	BigTom	and get - Symbol's value as variable is void: swank-clojure-extra-classpaths
12:37	AWizzArd	If you use Emacs+Slime+Clojure, can you please open a fresh repl and do: (javax.swing.JFileChooser.)
12:37	AWizzArd	What happens for you?
12:38	AWizzArd	Does it immediately return a JFileChooser object?
12:39	jbondeson	BigTom: I think you want the actual file name in the classpath like that, but I could be wrong...
12:39	AWizzArd	Or is it like on my system, that it crashes? Emacs won't respond to anything anymore?!
12:39	jbondeson	err don't think
12:39	jbondeson	sorry
12:40	jbondeson	AWizzArd: if i drop off irc, its because it hung my emacs
12:40	BigTom	AWizzard: it hangs
12:41	jbondeson	mine returns
12:41	Cark	awizard : you're on windows ?
12:41	AWizzArd	yes
12:41	AWizzArd	Windows here
12:41	Cark	i have the same problem
12:41	jbondeson	clojurebox?
12:41	AWizzArd	jbondeson: what Clojure version do you use?
12:41	jbondeson	i just updated
12:41	BigTom	emacs is ok, but I have a dead REPL
12:41	AWizzArd	Nope, my own emacs+slime setup
12:41	Cark	switch to the inferior-lisp and press enter a couple times
12:41	jbondeson	and i also just yesterday went to the most recent build of EmacsW32
12:42	BigTom	Cark: What is the inferior-lisp?
12:43	Cark	a buffer in emacs
12:43	Cark	=P
12:43	Cark	because of this problem i actally decided to do without emacs
12:43	Cark	i mean without slime
12:43	BigTom	The editing buffer?
12:44	Cark	that's another repl, not the slime repl
12:44	BigTom	ah, how do I fire it up?
12:44	jbondeson	the buffer will be called "inferior-lisp" and should have a prompt like "user=>"
12:44	jbondeson	if you hold control and right click you should get a buffer menu
12:44	BigTom	I guess I use "start inferior lisp"
12:44	Cark	C-X C-B should give you a list of buffers
12:44	jbondeson	err left
12:44	AWizzArd	cfunny behaviour
12:45	AWizzArd	jbondeson: do you also have newest versions of clojure-swank and clojure-mode?
12:45	jbondeson	AWizzArd: I do a full rebuild, so yes.
12:46	Cark	my understanding is that this is not a clojure problem, but rather a compatibility problem between emaxs and swing
12:46	Cark	you have the same without slime too
12:46	AWizzArd	jbondeson: what OS are you using? XP?
12:47	jbondeson	Vista
12:47	Cark	that's only under windows yes
12:48	BigTom	What is the difference between Slime and inferior-lisp?
12:48	Cark	the slime repl lives in a separate thread
12:49	Cark	inferior lisp is the direct pipe to the clojure process
12:49	Cark	at least that's how i understand it
12:51	AWizzArd	Cark: but jbondeson doesn't have our problem.
12:51	Cark	it works fine after it worked once
12:52	AWizzArd	yes :-)
12:52	Cark	still very annoying
12:52	AWizzArd	indeed
12:52	jbondeson	what jvm version are you targeting?
12:52	Cark	1.6 latest
12:52	AWizzArd	java 6 update 11 (server, 32 bit)
12:53	jbondeson	same
12:53	AWizzArd	k
12:53	Cark	so maybe it doesn't break under vista ?
12:53	jbondeson	seems to be the only real difference
12:53	AWizzArd	then I will now update to the newest Clojure, to the newest swank and emacs mode and see if that helps.
12:53	AWizzArd	I remember I did not have these problems one month ago.
12:54	Cark	i always had this problem
12:54	AWizzArd	or Cark, do you also have a fresh copy of all components for Clojure?
12:54	BigTom	I think it happened to me on the previous versions
12:54	Cark	awizzard : not right now
12:54	AWizzArd	jbondeson maybe has the more intense Windows. The fresher one. The one that simply feels better.
12:54	Cark	i learned to live with it
12:54	BigTom	I now have the latest clojurebox versions on XP and the SLIME REPL hung (emacs didn't)
12:55	AWizzArd	ah okay, so you have the clojurebox setup, while I am using my own install
13:01	BigTom	I'm going to have to go, reception is getting bad
13:10	jbondeson`	anyone know how to force a total reload of swank?
13:11	jbondeson`	I updated the extra-classpaths and it doesn't seem to want to take it when i kill buffers and reload.
13:12	Chouser	is there a better way to check if a var has been dynamically bound, other than (= @thevar (.getRoot thevar))
13:23	Lau_of_DK	Good evening everyone
13:29	Lau_of_DK	Design question. Imagine I have large quantities of data Im parsing by passing them through a map or something similar. How would I go about showing the progress to a UI?
13:29	jbondeson	most common way would be some form of callback at intervals in the processing
13:30	jbondeson	the other way would be some kind of mutable object that stores the current progress
13:31	Chousuke	I suppose you could wrap the function you're mapping in something that keeps a counter and notifies the UI
13:31	Chouser	or even more fun, create a generic seq filter that does it
13:32	Chousuke	not too difficult I suppose
13:32	Chouser	(map dowork (showprogress my-ui-obj (line-seq foo)))
13:33	Lau_of_DK	hmm, Chouser, thats blows the 'interval' idea doesnt it ?
13:33	Chouser	Hm, why aren't Vars Named? They clearly have names.
13:33	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: I don't think so
13:34	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: thought I suppose you'd have to tell it how much work to expect.
13:34	Chouser	though
13:34	Lau_of_DK	jbondeson: If you take a look at this system, where would you implement callbacks ? http://paste.lisp.org/display/74861
13:34	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: Thats a tough one
13:35	Chousuke	the imperative case is no different though. :)
13:35	Chouser	rhickey: may I add a Named implementation to Var? I want to use vars in a heirarchy.
13:38	Lau_of_D`	Sorry X froze on me, last thing I saw was my own question, any answers?
13:39	cooldude127	Lau_of_DK`: what'd ya ask?
13:39	jbondeson	Lau_of_DK: I'm trying to think how pmap is going to consume and process your file.
13:40	Lau_of_DK	Yes, I cant really visualize it
13:40	jbondeson	you may be able to add a call in the function pmap is using to map.
13:40	jbondeson	calculate, call, return calculation
13:40	Lau_of_DK	But you realize that pmap = map right?
13:41	jbondeson	yes.
13:41	Lau_of_DK	k
13:41	jbondeson	the biggest issue is adding in more side effects.
13:41	jbondeson	line-seq is lazy, right?
13:42	Lau_of_DK	Yea
13:42	jbondeson	well...
13:44	jbondeson	I think changing your work function in the map to signal "one more work item complete" would work.
13:45	jbondeson	you just have to deal with the concurrency problems with that
13:45	jbondeson	or if you don't mind have a mutable object you could just have an inc in that function.
13:45	jbondeson	not pretty, but it gives you what you need.
13:46	Lau_of_DK	I think actually, since the workload in size is practically unpredictable, the best think might be to increment a ref during mapping, and then doing the whole parse in a seperate thread, just keeping an eye on the ref
13:47	jbondeson	yeah.
13:48	Lau_of_DK	Alright, thanks for your input guys
13:49	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: http://gist.github.com/58262
13:49	Chousuke	my take at the side-effector :P
13:50	Chousuke	closures <3
13:51	Lau_of_DK	(doc swap!)
13:51	clojurebot	Atomically swaps the value of atom to be: (apply f current-value-of-atom args). Note that f may be called multiple times, and thus should be free of side effects. Returns the value that was swapped in.; arglists ([atom f] [atom f x] [atom f x y] [atom f x y & args])
13:51	Lau_of_DK	Same speed as commute?
13:51	Chousuke	probably faster.
13:51	Chousuke	works only on atoms though.
13:51	Chousuke	and you don't need a transaction :)
13:51	Lau_of_DK	cool
13:51	Lau_of_DK	Thanks man
13:53	jawolfe	Hi, anyone know if it's possible to efficiently get "the object that is held in the set which compares equal to x, if found" in a Java Set?
13:54	jawolfe	I can't find any corresponding method in the API
13:55	Chouser	jawolfe: wow. That seems like a bit of an oversight.
13:55	Chouser	you can do .contains, but then you just know you found something. getting the actual identity of the object in the Set doesn't seem possible.
13:55	Chousuke	hm, but if you already have an equal object, do you need the actual object in the set?
13:56	jawolfe	Well, I'm trying to extend Clojure contains? and get to work on Sets
13:56	jawolfe	and I believe the contract of "get" is that it should get the identical? object from the set
13:56	jawolfe	not just an .equal one
13:56	jawolfe	Chouser: Yeah, I'm surprised, but that looks like how it is
13:57	jawolfe	So, maybe this was Rich's way of making me find the answer to my question of why contains? doesn't work on Sets
13:57	jawolfe	:)
13:58	Chouser	jawolfe: :-) wouldn't shock me.
13:58	jawolfe	Am I right on the contract of Clojure "get"?
13:59	jawolfe	All I can find is from the data_structures page, where it says returns "the object that is held in the set which compares equal to the key"
13:59	jawolfe	which I take to mean the identical? object
14:01	Chousuke	hmm
14:01	jawolfe	this is way it currently works for clojure sets
14:01	jawolfe	'(let [x [1] y #{x}] (identical? x (get y [1])))
14:02	jawolfe	==> true
14:03	Chousuke	jawolfe: it uses .equals
14:04	Chousuke	jawolfe: I created a string that was not identical to a constant string, but still equal to it, and was able to retrieve it from a set containing a constant string
14:04	ayrnieu	,(let [x [1] y [1] z #{x y}] (map #(identical? % (get z [1])) [x y]))
14:04	clojurebot	(false true)
14:06	jawolfe	Chousuke: You mean it returns the actual object from the set, not the .equal query, right?
14:06	jawolfe	,(let [x [1] y [1] z #{x y}] z)
14:06	clojurebot	#{[1]}
14:07	Chousuke	jawolfe: yeah, it returns the thing in the set
14:07	jawolfe	So, right ... it does seem that "get" currently returns the actual (identical?) object from the set that's .equal to the query, not just an object .equal to the query
14:08	jawolfe	And it looks like there's no way to get this behavior in sublinear time from a java.util.Set
14:08	Chousuke	,(let [a "foo" b (apply str (seq "foo"))] [(identical? a b) (identical? a (get #{a} b))]
14:08	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:EOF while reading
14:08	Chousuke	oops
14:08	Chousuke	,(let [a "foo" b (apply str (seq "foo"))] [(identical? a b) (identical? a (get #{a} b))])
14:08	clojurebot	[false true]
14:09	jawolfe	So, the only question is whether this is the contract of "get" on sets or just an implementation artifact; from the wording, I suspect the former
14:10	jawolfe	So, I give up on this :) ... thanks all!
14:23	Mije	god bless shawn hoover
14:24	Mije	clojure box is a relief for the newbie :)
14:24	kefka	I have a problem where I include a .jar file in my classpath but can't load the classes into Clojure. I get the following error:
14:24	kefka	"java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: package/SQLCore (wrong name: SQLCore) (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)"
14:25	kefka	This is different from the error I get when the *.class is not supplied at all in the .jar, which is:
14:25	kefka	user=> (import '(package Foo))
14:25	kefka	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: package.Foo (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
14:26	kefka	What is happening here? What's behind the NoClassDefFoundError that fires when the *.class is, in fact, found?
14:26	hiredman	where is there a '/' in package/SQLCore?
14:26	hiredman	why
14:26	kefka	I called (import '(package SQLCore))
14:28	kefka	I'm not sure why it adds the '
14:28	kefka	the '/'
14:28	hiredman	kefka: that class is in the wrong package, it looks like
14:28	hiredman	http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/tomcat-users/200411.mbox/%3Cs19b6e5c.076@gwmail.media.utah.edu%3E
14:29	kefka	Ok. So I need to put it in a package?
14:30	hiredman	uh
14:30	kefka	I was hoping to avoid that. I don't like how the directory structure has to match the package structure exactly.
14:30	Chousuke	kefka: you can't avoid that.
14:30	Chousuke	it'll just keep your code organised anyway
14:30	kefka	hiredman, Chousuke: Ok, thanks.
14:31	Chousuke	you can always have files that are just included by other files, of course; they have no structure rules.
14:32	Chousuke	but in general it's good to have a clear namespace structure, and the directory layout has to match that at least for the files that declare a namespace.
14:35	technomancy	contrib committers: there's still a CPL.txt file in the contrib repo; shouldn't that be removed?
14:35	technomancy	also, it wouldn't hurt to maybe toss a README in there... =)
14:36	technomancy	heh
14:49	duck1123	clojurebot: CPL.txt is <reply>Pay no attention to the CPL.txt
14:49	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
15:16	jayfields	what do you use in Clojure similar to a ternary operator. (e.g. [ruby] foo = condition ? "1" : "0")
15:17	technomancy	jayfields: in Clojure if is pretty succinct
15:17	kotarak	(let [foo (if condition 1 0)] ...)
15:17	technomancy	jayfields: actually even more succinct than the ternary operator. =)
15:17	cooldude127	jayfields: if is the ternary operator :)
15:17	technomancy	The Original Ternary Operator.
15:18	jayfields	I was trying to do (.setSide (if (< quantity 0) "buy" "sell"))
15:18	technomancy	(literally; lisp was the first language to have an else clause with if)
15:18	jayfields	and getting a weird error
15:18	technomancy	jayfields: you're trying to call setSide on an object, but it looks like you're missing that object
15:18	technomancy	setSide is a method, right?
15:19	jayfields	yeah, I'm in a (doto ...)
15:19	kotarak	What is the error?
15:19	kotarak	Weird are many errors....
15:19	cooldude127	^ was about to ask
15:19	technomancy	oh, ok that's different then. more of a problem with how you're using doto than if
15:19	kotarak	lisppaste8: url
15:19	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
15:19	jayfields	(doto msg (.setSide (if (< quantity 0) "buy" "sell")))
15:19	kotarak	You can paste the problematic code and the error there.
15:19	ozy`	jayfields: if/then/else/end is an expression in ruby, too, you know :p
15:19	ayrnieu	,(doto "hi" (.contains (if (< 1 3) "h" "x")))
15:19	clojurebot	"hi"
15:20	ayrnieu	eheh.
15:20	kotarak	I'm still missing the error....
15:21	jayfields	one sec, I'll see if I can isolate and paste
15:21	technomancy	jayfields: doto is a macro, so your regular assumptions about evaluation order may not apply. (I haven't used it myself.)
15:22	jayfields	(doto msg (.setSide (if (< quantity 0) 1 0))) seems fine
15:22	jayfields	but if I try to replace 1 & 0 with enum values I get failure.
15:22	jayfields	*failures
15:22	technomancy	enum values?
15:22	technomancy	you mean strings?
15:23	jayfields	public class BuySellEnum {
15:23	jayfields	public BuySellEnum() {
15:23	jayfields	}
15:23	jayfields	public static final int BUY = 0;
15:23	jayfields	public static final int SELL = 1;
15:23	jayfields	}
15:23	kotarak	jayfields: please paste the code in question together with the exception you get. Like this is only guessing.
15:23	kotarak	lisppaste8: url
15:23	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
15:23	kotarak	Please there. ^
15:24	kotarak	(doto msg (.setSide (if (< quantity 0) BuySellEnum/BUY BySellEnum/SELL))
15:24	technomancy	jayfields: yeah, that sounds like your problem. strings are not the same as enums.
15:25	jayfields	I suck. I think it was a typo the whole time. sorry.
15:25	cooldude127	lol
15:26	jayfields	I had BuySellEnum/Sell instead of BuySellEnum/SELL
15:26	kotarak	jayfields: no problem. But be clear in how the code looks like. Otherwise others have a hard time to help. :)
15:26	jayfields	got it, next time I try the paste thing. Thanks.
15:26	jayfields	*I'll
15:27	technomancy	it helps a lot to get paste integration with your editor.
15:27	jayfields	do you have a link for IntelliJ integration, or should I google?
15:28	technomancy	I don't know about that, no.
15:28	kotarak	try to google in the google group of clojure.
15:28	kotarak	There you should find the announcement.
15:28	jayfields	cool. thanks. The clojure plugin for IntelliJ is pretty young unfortunately.
15:28	kotarak	http://code.google.com/p/clojure-intellij-plugin/
15:29	kotarak	Hopefully correct. :]
15:38	jbondeson	sorry about all the bouncing in/out today.
15:38	cooldude127	NO APOLOGIES ACCEPTED
15:38	jbondeson	;-;
15:39	cooldude127	lol
15:52	BigTom	technomancy?
15:53	technomancy	BigTom: ahoy
15:53	BigTom	technomancy: Hi, I saw your blog re Slime
15:54	BigTom	If I wanted to give it a go should I clean out my clojure box and start from straight emacs?
15:54	gnuvince	Is there a command-line debugger that I can use with Clojure?
15:54	BigTom	I don't have a big enough investment for that to be a problem
15:55	technomancy	BigTom: you shouldn't need to do that, no.
15:55	technomancy	but if you feel like starting from a clean slate, you could check out the Emacs Starter Kit.
15:55	kotarak	gnuvince: there is jdb...
15:56	hiredman	http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs/tooldocs/solaris/jdb.html
15:56	hiredman	^- manpage which for some reason I don't have, even though I have jdb
15:57	technomancy	BigTom: is this on Windows?
15:58	gnuvince	kotarak: great
15:58	gnuvince	thanks
15:58	gnuvince	hiredman: thanks to you too :)
15:58	BigTom	technomancy: I thought I would try it on Linux first
15:59	technomancy	BigTom: ok, that's the only thing I've tested on, though it sounds like it may only need small tweaks for win
15:59	technomancy	gnuvince: that or it means your test suite isn't good enough
16:00	BigTom	do I just follow the instructions in the top of clojure-mode.el
16:00	technomancy	BigTom: that should do it; yeah
16:00	gnuvince	technomancy: hold on to your chair: no tests for this part :)
16:00	technomancy	gnuvince: =(
16:00	gnuvince	technomancy: I'm not sure how I'm gonna handle them.
16:04	technomancy	gnuvince: getting started on tests can be the trickiest part. the project I was just on took a whole day to get the test suite even running; once I had that in place the implementation took only half a day. =\
16:04	technomancy	metaperl: hey, I heard you were using M-x clojure-install on Windows?
16:05	gnuvince	technomancy: I mean, it's all side effects stuff with packed binary data
16:05	metaperl	gnuvince: hi
16:05	metaperl	gnuvince: yes, it works
16:05	metaperl	technomancy: thank you for your work
16:05	gnuvince	metaperl: pardon?
16:05	cooldude127	wait, really? that works on windows?
16:05	metaperl	odd thing is, with windows git, I kept getting the old version of clojure-mode even though I was cloning from technomancy's archive
16:05	metaperl	oh
16:05	technomancy	metaperl: no problem. it sounds like you had to mess around with the path a bit? I pushed out a new version which should make that unnecessary.
16:06	metaperl	gnuvince: sorry
16:06	technomancy	metaperl: were you using the installer branch?
16:06	technomancy	I haven't merged to master yet.
16:07	lisppaste8	metaperl pasted "what worked for me" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74882
16:08	metaperl	technomancy: what is the installer branch? I tried git clone git://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode.git ... over and over and I kept ending up with the soure code in jochu's github instead... so I downloaded a zip of the git and unpacked it
16:08	metaperl	oh maybe that is why I kept getting his source code?
16:08	metaperl	it was frustrating :)
16:08	cooldude127	metaperl: there are two branches, master and installer
16:08	metaperl	i thought it was a bug with github or git win32
16:08	technomancy	metaperl: yeah, sorry... I want to communicate with jochu about the installer before I merge to master.
16:08	cooldude127	installer is the one with the cool stuff in it
16:09	metaperl	does the git hub page infer that somehow?
16:09	metaperl	what clone command would I use for that?
16:09	Chousuke	you should get both branches
16:09	technomancy	metaperl: anyway, it sounds like on windows probably nobody is going to use the default value of clojure-src-root anyway...
16:09	metaperl	i dont know how to do that?
16:09	Chousuke	just git checkout installer afterwards
16:09	Chousuke	(by default master is checked out)
16:10	hiredman	I am not sure what is more annoying, so much emacs talk, or irssi coloring all the nicks the same
16:10	metaperl	again, how do I look at the github page and see the fact that there are two main branches?
16:10	cooldude127	Chousuke: nope
16:10	cooldude127	Chousuke: only master is cloned by default
16:10	technomancy	metaperl: oh! I didn't realize that the github checkout instructions wouldn't mention the fact that you were on another branch
16:10	Chousuke	oh.
16:10	technomancy	I can see how that would be very confusing.
16:10	metaperl	technomancy: I did git clone
16:10	metaperl	git clone git://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode.git
16:10	technomancy	Chousuke: actually git clone only pulls master across by default iirc
16:10	Chousuke	well, git checkout -b installer origin/installer I guess :/
16:10	technomancy	metaperl: yeah, that's my bad; should have explained that.
16:11	metaperl	so you are saying I should h ave done a git checkout installer in the clojure-mode directory afterwards?
16:11	technomancy	metaperl: what Chousuke said
16:11	technomancy	but I will merge this into the master branch; this is too confusing
16:11	technomancy	and I'm pretty sure we'll want to keep it since it's been working out so well.
16:11	metaperl	he didnt say where to do it, but I'm assuming the root directory of what was checked out
16:11	technomancy	sorry for the confusion.
16:11	metaperl	ok I will wait for the merge
16:12	Chousuke	technomancy: better yet: swap the two brances ;)
16:12	Chousuke	branches*
16:13	Chousuke	though I guess you could just make a tag for the old master too, instead of a branch
16:13	metaperl	the git grandmasters hash it over :)
16:13	metaperl	i have perl professional work to do, so I will check in with you cats after 5pm
16:13	metaperl	(1 hr from now)
16:14	Chousuke	git actually makes a lot of sense once you get the basics
16:14	technomancy	metaperl: thanks for getting this working; nice to know it's cross-platform.
16:15	metaperl	:)
16:15	cooldude127	technomancy: it was cross-platform before, just not windows :)
16:15	technomancy	heh
16:16	technomancy	cooldude127: usually I have a "Windows support is entirely accidental" disclaimer on my codes.
16:16	cooldude127	i noticed
16:17	Chousuke	:)
16:17	cooldude127	technomancy: i saw it on mire too
16:18	Chousuke	I'd extend that to support of environments besides my own...
16:18	cooldude127	i make sure technomancy's code works on os x
16:19	technomancy	I delegate my OS X testing.
16:19	technomancy	since it's "illegal" for me to run a VM with it.
16:19	hiredman	eh?
16:20	technomancy	hiredman: I can't test on OS X without either buying a Mac or violating the EULA.
16:20	technomancy	which is pretty silly.
16:20	BigTom	technomancy: Its installing now
16:20	hiredman	ah
16:20	BigTom	I'll have a go with Windows tomorrow
16:20	technomancy	hiredman: even MS is not that restrictive. =\
16:21	Chousuke	MS mainly sells software though.
16:21	cooldude127	apple is a hardware company
16:21	technomancy	Chousuke: sure, they have their motivations. doesn't make it reasonable.
16:21	cooldude127	they'd be broke if you didn't have to buy a mac
16:21	technomancy	Chousuke: I'm trying to make things work better on OS X, and they are opposing me.
16:22	Chousuke	I can see your point.
16:22	technomancy	it's not as bad as the iPhone where you have to ask permission to enrich the developer and application ecosystem, but it still offendsn me.
16:22	Chousuke	maybe they should provide a "tester licence" for running in a VM for testing purposes.
16:22	technomancy	Chousuke: on the other hand, outsourcing cross-platform testing has been working out great for me so far. =)
16:23	Chousuke	:)
16:23	technomancy	so I can't complain too much
16:23	cooldude127	technomancy: i'm a good tester :)
16:23	Chousuke	At least OS X is pretty unixy
16:23	technomancy	cooldude127: you do indeed have a knack for finding my dumb mistakes. =)
16:23	Chousuke	so if you don't make any unreasonable assumptions it'll just work most of the time.
16:24	cooldude127	technomancy: i have a skill for spotting problems in other people's code
16:24	cooldude127	Chousuke: yeah that is true
16:24	technomancy	Chousuke: a lot of it is BSD-isms like the crazy behaviour of cp -r if you add a trailing slash to a directory entry
16:24	cooldude127	technomancy taught me to tell aquamacs to fuck off, albeit very indirectly and probably without his knowledge
16:25	hiredman	BSD is Unix, GNU is Not Unix
16:25	hiredman	:P
16:25	cooldude127	lol
16:25	hiredman	I mean, it even says so, right in the name
17:06	cads	has clojure ever been anything other than a lisp?
17:06	ayrnieu	it hasn't.
17:06	cads	thanks ayrnieu
17:07	Chouser	I believe in it's oldest form it was a common lisp program that generated Java and C# source code.
17:07	Chouser	its
17:08	ayrnieu	http://dotlisp.sourceforge.net/dotlisp.htm
17:09	kotarak	o.O
17:10	cads	wow :D
17:12	kotarak	So it was a Scheme. :)
17:14	technomancy`	nice; like half of lisp.reddit.com is clojure now.
17:15	Chouser	I really thought the compiler was originally in CL, but I'm not finding it now.
17:21	shoover	dotlisp was a different project. you can find clojure in CL in the svn history
17:26	Raynes	Clojure is gaining popularity fast. Looks like a JVM LISP is everyones dream.
17:26	technomancy`	Raynes: a modern lisp is the big draw for me.
17:27	technomancy`	just losing all the 80s-ish trappings (like the big hair and the synths)
17:27	turbo24prg	is there a "built-in" to find the entry for a value in a map?
17:27	ayrnieu	another JVM Lisp: http://common-lisp.net/project/armedbear/
17:27	hiredman	I was looking for a .Net lisp the first few times I stumbled across clojure
17:27	ayrnieu	,({1 2, 3 4} 1)
17:27	clojurebot	2
17:28	Raynes	technomancy`: The fact that the community is already huge, and that the language rocks, and that Rich actually hangs out in here, people are already working on IDE support for Clojure and a book is 2 months away from shipping did it for me.
17:28	hiredman	turbo24prg: java Map or clojure map?
17:28	Raynes	Did I mention the language rocks?
17:28	technomancy`	heh
17:28	hiredman	,(:a {:a 1 :b 2})
17:28	clojurebot	1
17:28	hiredman	,(get {:a 1 :b 2} :a)
17:28	clojurebot	1
17:28	turbo24prg	ayrnieu: with the value (like 2), not with the key
17:29	ayrnieu	the language is very cool, and the book (that you can already get on PDF, beta 6 now) does a very good job of showing this
17:29	Chouser	,(find {:a 1, :b 2} :a)
17:29	clojurebot	[:a 1]
17:29	kotarak	turbo24prg: (filter #(= (second %) value-to-look-for) the-map) untested.
17:29	turbo24prg	in cl you can give find a :test method
17:29	hiredman	turbo24prg: you want a bimap?
17:30	hiredman	look up keys with values, look up values with keys?
17:30	turbo24prg	right
17:30	hiredman	ick
17:31	durka42	you could use two maps...
17:31	hiredman	,(reduce #(assoc %1 (second %2) (first %2)) {} {:a 1 :b 2})
17:31	clojurebot	{2 :b, 1 :a}
17:31	Chouser	,((into {} (map (fn [[x y]] [y x]) {:a 1, :b 2})) 2)
17:31	clojurebot	:b
17:31	kotarak	turbo24prg: (merge (zipmap keys values) (zipmap values keys))
17:31	jbondeson`	kotarak has what you want.
17:32	kotarak	But with lots of assumptions.
17:32	kotarak	unique keys, unique values, ...
17:32	hiredman	(doc zipmap)
17:32	clojurebot	Returns a map with the keys mapped to the corresponding vals.; arglists ([keys vals])
17:32	turbo24prg	are strings stored multiple times then (when using two maps)?
17:32	hiredman	huh
17:32	Chouser	no
17:32	Chouser	not unless you try very hard
17:33	turbo24prg	Chouser: what does that mean? :)
17:33	jbondeson`	if you're not doing it a million times the previous filter statement works.
17:33	jbondeson`	the real issue is non-unique values.
17:34	Chouser	turbo24prg: string literals in Clojure are interned and objects are hardly ever deep-copied.
17:34	Chouser	,(identical? "foo" "foo") ; interned
17:34	clojurebot	true
17:35	turbo24prg	well, thanks for your help!
17:35	ayrnieu	,(let [d {1 2 2 3 3 2}] (map count [(set (keys d)) (set (vals d))]))
17:35	clojurebot	(3 2)
17:37	Chouser	,(let [a [1 "foo"] b [(second a) 2]] (identical? (second a) (first b))) ; copy reference, not object
17:37	clojurebot	true
17:37	Chouser	,(identical? "foo" (String. "foo")) ; explicit copy
17:37	clojurebot	false
17:37	gnuvince_	hiredman: trying to convert Haskellers to Clojure? :)
17:41	turbo24prg	so i don't have to role my own dictionary encoding when i use a string in several maps, because it actually stores references?
17:42	Chouser	turbo24prg: sounds right to me.
17:42	hiredman	gnuvince_: well, I would just sort of like all the haskell code out there to be translated to clojure so I can use it
17:42	technomancy`	hiredman: speaking of haskell... think you'll make it to seafunc or not?
17:43	ayrnieu	this is the only haskell code of note: http://www.willamette.edu/~fruehr/haskell/evolution.html
17:43	turbo24prg	awesome.
17:43	hiredman	technomancy`: nah, I have to go fix someones internet
17:43	technomancy`	hiredman: bummer
17:44	hiredman	I am really geting fed up with cheapo router/gateway/nat boxes
17:44	albino	time to by a soekris
17:44	albino	s/by/buy
17:46	hiredman	albino: price*4
17:46	hiredman	but yeah
17:46	hiredman	that would be best
17:47	hiredman	that would be awesome infact
17:47	technomancy`	I get out of a lot of that kind of stuff by saying that I haven't used Windows in over 5 years since that's usually where the problem lies.
17:47	albino	isn't it like $300 or something like that?
17:47	hiredman	$278
17:48	hiredman	technomancy`: nah
17:48	albino	hiredman: dude, you can make 80k+ a year hacking java, you should be able to afford it
17:48	technomancy`	albino: sounds like it's for someone else
17:48	albino	oh
17:48	albino	I thought it was for his house
17:48	hiredman	kwatz. I do not hack java so I do not make that kind of money
17:49	hiredman	anway, this is sort of off topic, I guess
17:49	albino	hiredman: stop painting start hacking :). 1) Obtain job hacking java 2) Sneak in clojure instead of java 3) profit
17:49	hiredman	although, I think sablevm is in the package repo for some of the opensource firmwares
17:50	hiredman	dunno if clojure runs on sablevm though
17:50	technomancy`	sablevm?
17:51	technomancy`	would make a good logo
17:51	technomancy`	*on
17:51	technomancy`	(heraldry jokes are not very funny.)
17:51	hiredman	NOTE: THIS PROJECT HAS MET ITS RESEARCH GOALS AND IS NOT ACTIVELY MAINTAINED ANYMORE.
17:51	hiredman	^- sablevm homepage
17:52	albino	ahh, that's where the academic world fails the real world
17:52	albino	where research goals are met
17:58	technomancy`	but it met its research goals! so it must be good.
18:26	BigTom	technomancy: Your install script works so far for me on Linux
18:26	gnuvince_	,(+ (byte 254) 3)
18:26	clojurebot	1
18:26	BigTom	I even ran one of those swing snake apps that were popular a few weeks back
18:26	gnuvince_	,(+ (int (byte 254)) 3)
18:26	clojurebot	1
18:27	technomancy	BigTom: great
18:27	BigTom	technomancy: I'll give it a go on Windows tomorrow, thanks
18:27	technomancy	cool
18:27	BigTom	g'night
18:28	cooldude127	technomancy: clojure-install is a hit!
18:28	technomancy	out of the park.
18:28	cooldude127	technomancy: is clojure-update in yet?
18:28	cooldude127	oh yeah it is
18:28	cooldude127	i'm forgetful
18:28	technomancy	cooldude127: it is, but the save-window-excursion I added wasn't working.
18:28	cooldude127	really?
18:29	technomancy	yeah, I may not have exactly what you wrote at first though.
18:29	cooldude127	technomancy: weird, cuz i think i'm using what you put in, and it works for me
18:30	gnuvince_	Is it possible to convert from byte to int?
18:30	technomancy	maybe I was using an older copy... sometimes I get confused since the my clojure-mode repo and starter kit aren't always in sync
18:30	cooldude127	technomancy: could be. i copied clojure-mode.el over from clojure-mode repo
18:33	cooldude127	technomancy: did you talk to jochu? your master has been merged
18:33	cooldude127	from installer
18:33	cooldude127	in your repo
18:33	technomancy	cooldude127: I've just sent a pull request; haven't heard back
18:34	cooldude127	oh ok cool
18:34	technomancy	I figured this stuff wasn't going away though.
18:34	cooldude127	yeah
18:34	cooldude127	everybody likes easy installers
18:34	Chousuke	hm
18:34	cooldude127	and this is definitely the kinda thing clojure can use
18:34	Chousuke	the new clojure-mode is not going to screw up my git-svn repos is it? :)
18:34	Chousuke	I see you have added automagixk
18:34	Chousuke	magicks*
18:35	cooldude127	Chousuke: if you don't use clojure-install or clojure-update
18:35	gnuvince_	,(byte 255)
18:35	clojurebot	-1
18:35	gnuvince_	hmmm
18:35	cooldude127	it shouldn't mess up anything
18:35	gnuvince_	Does Clojure have unsigned versions of its numerical types?
18:35	cp2	so, whats the story with lazy-cons?
18:35	Chousuke	java doesn't, so no.
18:35	cp2	is cons now lazy?
18:35	ayrnieu	http://darksleep.com/player/JavaAndUnsignedTypes.html
18:36	gnuvince_	damn
18:36	ayrnieu	cp2 - in the lazy branch, (first (cons 1 (repeat 1))) => 1
18:36	gnuvince_	I have a program that needs to read unsigned bytes
18:36	cp2	i see
18:36	ayrnieu	oh well, that's 1 in trunk as well.
18:36	technomancy	Chousuke: you can use clojure-install or clojure-update with a different src-root and it won't conflict. but if you don't touch those commands, there's no way it would mess you up.
18:36	technomancy	no side-effects. =)
18:37	cooldude127	Chousuke: and clojure-update assumes you are using git for all, as in it just does git pull in those directories
18:37	cp2	oh ayrnieu, i only brought that up because i thought it was removed
18:37	cp2	rhickey was here explaining a few days ago
18:37	cp2	it appears its still there
18:38	cp2	im using 1235 (from clojure box)
18:39	Chousuke	cooldude127: hm, maybe make that configurable?
18:39	Chousuke	I need git svn rebase :)
18:39	Chousuke	... for clojure and clojure-contrib
18:39	technomancy	Chousuke: it's more targeted at people who are just getting started... but that might make sense
18:40	technomancy	do you use git-svn because you need to be able to commit?
18:40	cooldude127	Chousuke: well, clojure-update is meant to be used after doing clojure-install
18:40	Chousuke	technomancy: nah. the git repo is just too lagged
18:40	cooldude127	gnuvince_: apparently you need to use a short
18:41	technomancy	Chousuke: the github one is updated manually?
18:41	Chousuke	maybe with a cron script or something; I don't know.
18:41	Chousuke	certainly not automatically when the SVN repo changes.
18:41	technomancy	Chousuke: hows about I replace "git pull" with "git pull \|\| git svn pull"
18:42	technomancy	err--rebase
18:42	technomancy	so if it fails it will fall back to git-svn
18:42	ayrnieu	clojurebot notices svn updates. Have it update a git repo :-)
18:42	cooldude127	clojurebot: latest?
18:42	clojurebot	latest is 1250
18:42	cooldude127	yeah github is 9 revs behind
18:42	technomancy	huh; didn't realize it was that bad
18:43	Chousuke	Google should implement git support for google code.
18:43	cooldude127	Chousuke: hell yeah
18:43	Chousuke	would be easier to persuade rhickey too :P
18:43	gnuvince_	cooldude127: so I'll need to convert all my data types up one level?
18:43	cooldude127	gnuvince_: looks like it based on the link that was on here
18:43	ayrnieu	gnuvince, it depends on what you're doing.
18:44	ayrnieu	gvunince - signed bytes and unsigned bytes are the same at the bit level, after all.
18:44	cp2	is the sf svn for clojure the "official" one
18:44	cooldude127	cp2: i think it's on google code now
18:45	Chousuke	it moved to google code a while ago.
18:45	cp2	i see
18:45	Chousuke	as did contrib
18:45	cp2	k, thank you
18:45	Chousuke	I see it as an improvement, but still wish it was git instead of SVN :)
18:45	cooldude127	should have gone to github :)
18:45	cp2	personally i like bazaar
18:45	Chousuke	or actually, any DVCS would do
18:45	Chousuke	hg, bzr, or even darcs I guess.
18:46	walters	Chousuke: i think it depends on Google internally giving up on improving SVN; last I heard they were still paying someone to do that
18:46	cooldude127	lol
18:46	ayrnieu	you can use svk with the existing svn repo.
18:46	cp2	Server Error
18:46	cp2	burn in hell google
18:46	cooldude127	ayrnieu: right now i think people are using git-svn
18:46	Chousuke	ayrnieu: I haven't heard good things about svk.
18:47	cooldude127	i don't like it
18:47	Chousuke	git-svn is great, though.
18:47	ayrnieu	svk was a little slow on my 412Mhz Zaurus.
18:47	technomancy	I heard the github guys gave a training talk at Google; don't know if that means they're using git-svn or considering going all-git on some teams
18:47	Chousuke	initial checkout is a pain, but after that it's like SVN was never there... at least for local stuff.
18:47	ayrnieu	Other people may dislike it for being written in Perl, or for not being something that they already prefer -- git, etc.
18:48	cooldude127	i have never used git-svn
18:48	gnuvince_	ayrnieu: I need to do an addition to specify a terminaision clause, and when it wraps to -100, it wreaks havoc
18:48	cooldude127	i think i'm just scared
18:48	Chousuke	cooldude127: do you use git though?
18:48	cooldude127	Chousuke: yes :)
18:48	cooldude127	all the damn time
18:48	Chousuke	then you should check out git-svn
18:49	technomancy	cooldude127: is that because you're a student and don't have to deal with Legacy Stuff? =)
18:49	cooldude127	technomancy: i think so
18:49	walters	ayrnieu: i think the argument against SVK is that it's sort of like trying to build a skyscraper on top of the foundations built for a house
18:49	cooldude127	technomancy: i can't think of anything i need to checkout from svn
18:49	jbondeson`	i still don't trust these new fangle-dangle dcvs things
18:49	cooldude127	lol
18:50	ayrnieu	walters - uh, OK.
18:50	Chousuke	jbondeson: you can use them like traditional VCS systems too!
18:50	technomancy	jbondeson: back in my day, we had to keep each file in its own RCS repository... and it was uphill both ways!
18:51	Chousuke	though using git with a SVN-like workflow is really not effective.
18:51	ayrnieu	jbondeson, watch the git screencasts.
18:51	jbondeson	it doesn't help that git on windows sucks
18:51	Chousuke	git is best used by committing often and cleaning up the mess later.
18:51	gnuvince_	jbondeson: git isn't the only DVCS
18:51	cooldude127	Chousuke: git rebase -i ftw :)
18:51	Chousuke	you don't need to worry about committing broken stuff, as long as you don't push it, which is a huge win :)
18:52	Chousuke	could probably make emacs autocommit on every save :/
18:52	cooldude127	Chousuke: but then your git log would suck
18:53	Chousuke	cooldude127, well, that's easy to fix.
18:53	Chousuke	just squash together the commits
18:53	cooldude127	damn i love git sometimes
18:53	Chousuke	and throw away the ugly development branch
18:53	technomancy	the peepcode on git is really good
18:53	Chousuke	and master will look like you never make errors (not even spelling errors in log messages)
18:53	cooldude127	AS IS THE ONE ON EMACS
18:53	technomancy	heh
18:54	technomancy	Chousuke: I wrote an Emacs mode that would autocommit to git on an idle-timer and then synchronize with other repos over zeroconf for near-realtime collaborative editing
18:54	technomancy	it were a blast
18:54	Chousuke	heh
18:54	cooldude127	geoffrey grosenbach is a screencasting bad-ass
18:55	technomancy	Chousuke: http://github.com/technomancy/conspire/tree/master
18:55	Chousuke	another thing I love about git is that I can actually make the commits meaningful
18:55	cooldude127	technomancy: i was looking at that code
18:55	Chousuke	log messages, rather
18:55	jbondeson	technomancy: why does that sound like it would be fun to screw with your coworkers using that...
18:55	technomancy	jbondeson: heh
18:55	cooldude127	technomancy: how good is the conspire code?
18:55	Chousuke	often, you end up making unrelated edits in a single commit, or during a series of commits
18:55	technomancy	cooldude127: i never actually tested it with more than two conspirators
18:56	Chousuke	git makes separating that mess into clean, well-labeled commits trivial
18:56	technomancy	so probably not very good. I'm sure the timing code needs improvement.
18:56	cooldude127	technomancy: does it work when you're on different networks?
18:56	technomancy	cooldude127: not currently; it autodetects peers using zeroconf
18:56	technomancy	aka bonjour
18:57	cooldude127	yeah
18:57	cooldude127	technomancy: wtf is roastbeef?
18:57	technomancy	cooldude127: it's just some lame checkout tool I wrote
18:58	technomancy	for compiling the absolute latest version of a program
18:58	cooldude127	oh
18:58	technomancy	Roast Beef is also a character in the excellent web comic Achewood.
18:58	cooldude127	i'm more interested in the first answer :)
18:59	technomancy	the second answer is probably more entertaining
18:59	cooldude127	lol
19:00	technomancy	you've got to start at the beginning with reading Achewood though. it's high-context humor.
19:05	Chousuke	hmm, running git gc every once in a while is useful
19:05	cooldude127	lol
19:06	Chousuke	my clojure repo went from 32MB to 11MB and contrib from 16MB to 4.7MB
19:06	technomancy	Chousuke: are you running clojure on your phone or something? =)
19:06	technomancy	that's not a lot of mega bytes
19:07	Chousuke	nah, operations weren't really getting slow or anything
19:07	Chousuke	but if this were a bigger project...
19:07	cooldude127	like...linux!
19:07	Chousuke	using 262MB right now
19:08	Chousuke	though it hasn't changed that much since I last repacked it. :/
19:08	cooldude127	emacs is a fatty
19:08	technomancy	a long-lived one at that
19:08	Chousuke	emacs contains a lot of software :)
19:09	bitbckt	just needs a decent editor
19:09	cooldude127	like tetris
19:09	Chousuke	bitbckt: M-x viper
19:09	bitbckt	I kid, I kid.
19:11	jbondeson	typing M-x viper is admitting defeat
19:11	Chousuke	defeat of what?
19:11	Chousuke	it
19:11	jbondeson	of mind, body, and soul!
19:11	Chousuke	it's just enabling a superior UI!
19:12	jbondeson	so sad...
19:12	Chousuke	the fact that it's possible to write vim in emacs proves that emacs is, as an editor, superior, but its UI is still crappy :/
19:12	cooldude127	lol
19:14	jbondeson	see the problem is you're thinking of it as a UI or editor, and not a full blown operating syste!
19:14	jbondeson	+m
19:14	Chousuke	or maybe I shouldn't call emacs an editor... it's more of a set of composable features
19:14	walters	emacs is a buffer-oriented toolkit
19:15	cooldude127	an awesome toolkit
19:15	cooldude127	made of composable awesome
19:15	Chousuke	emacs is kind of like maths; if you have 1 and 2, you can have 3, or 1/2, or -1
19:18	Chousuke	and then someone writes a bunch of elisp that does something no-one though of before and that is like a whole new branch of maths; and all the old stuff can be re-examined
19:18	Chousuke	thought*
19:19	cooldude127	lol
19:23	notyouravgjoel	how does one find the length of a list?
19:24	Chouser	(doc count)
19:24	clojurebot	Returns the number of items in the collection. (count nil) returns 0. Also works on strings, arrays, and Java Collections and Maps; arglists ([coll])
19:24	notyouravgjoel	thanks!
19:25	zakwilson	I read somewhere that emacs is a great operating system... it's just too bad about the text editor.
19:27	Chousuke	not everyone agrees that a text editor is best for code anyway :)
19:28	cooldude127	i happen to like the text editor, so...suck it
19:28	zakwilson	I saw some interesting new language that used some sort of flowchart-like interface constructed by drag-and-drop.
19:29	zakwilson	I can never remember what it's called.
19:29	Chousuke	I know what you're talking about
19:29	Chousuke	I forgot the name too
19:29	cooldude127	i wish i did
19:29	Chousuke	It seemed very cumbersome though
19:29	jbondeson	any interface that relies upon the mouse is inherently flawed =P
19:29	zakwilson	That was my first impression too.
19:30	danlei	there was something like that back when i had an amiga ...
19:30	danlei	i hated it :)
19:33	zakwilson	Maybe program code shouldn't always be text, but I have yet to see a compelling alternative.
19:33	Chousuke	well, lisp code is not text but I suppose you mean the visual representation :)
19:34	Chousuke	hmm
19:34	zakwilson	Lisp code is a bunch of object literals. Object literals are text.
19:34	Chousuke	no, the actual lisp code is a data structure
19:34	Chousuke	you never see it; you just see your textual representation of it.
19:35	peter_12	has anyone written a Clojure interpreter in JavaScript?
19:35	Chousuke	there's a translator.
19:35	Chousuke	ClojureScript, in clojure-contrib
19:35	danlei	i think the interlisp guys used structure editors, not textual representation of code
19:35	Chousuke	a work-in-progress though.
19:35	peter_12	I was specifically interested in an interpreter
19:36	Chousuke	write one in clojure! and then translate it with clojurescript.
19:37	peter_12	Chousuke: :-)
19:37	zakwilson	I suppose it depends on whether you're talking about in-memory code or source code.
19:37	Chousuke	zakwilson: well, I'm talking about what the compiler sees.
19:37	Chousuke	or the interpreter.
19:37	zakwilson	And I'm talking about what the reader sees.
19:38	Chousuke	well, that is text, yeah.
19:38	Chousuke	could be images as well I suppose.
19:38	zakwilson	Doesn't PLT have some support for images in source code?
19:38	Chousuke	cut and paste things together, scan it, use some kind of image recognition as the "reader"...
19:39	Chousuke	cut and paste in this case is to be taken literally.
19:40	zakwilson	http://docs.plt-scheme.org/drscheme/Graphical_Syntax.html
19:40	Chouser	what a pain
19:44	notyouravgjoel	is there any namespace stuff I have to do to use the set stuff?
19:44	cooldude127	i think sets are in core, so no
19:45	notyouravgjoel	the api says its in clojure.set
19:45	ayrnieu	,index
19:45	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: index in this context
19:45	cooldude127	,(doc union)
19:45	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: union in this context
19:45	ayrnieu	,clojure.set/index
19:45	clojurebot	#<set$index__5686 clojure.set$index__5686@1adceb8>
19:45	cooldude127	ok i was wrong
19:46	cooldude127	basic set structure is in core, but the operations are not
19:52	danlei	oh, that's interesting. i googled a bit for interlisp + structure editor and there's even a thread about it in the clojure group, which also has a link to xerox. nice ...
19:56	durka42	,(int (Byte/parseByte "3"))
19:56	clojurebot	3
19:56	durka42	,(.intValue (Byte/parseByte "3"))
19:56	clojurebot	3
20:11	ozy`	,(apply #'hack [the-internets])
20:11	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: hack in this context
20:13	ayrnieu	speaking of which, fun fact: no matter how well you obfuscate your JS, at some point the browser makes a tangible request.
20:27	jayfields	lisppaste8
20:27	jayfields	lisppaste8: url
20:27	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
20:28	lisppaste8	jayfields pasted "java - clojure running code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74893
20:29	lisppaste8	jayfields pasted "should.clj" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74894
20:30	lisppaste8	jayfields pasted "example.clj" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74895
20:30	ayrnieu	please use annotations instead of all these separate pastes.
20:30	jayfields	sorry, this is my first attempt at using pastie.
20:31	lisppaste8	jayfields annotated #74893 with "should.clj" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74893#1
20:31	lisppaste8	jayfields annotated #74893 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74893#2
20:32	jayfields	okay, so I'm trying to run the last annotated snippet
20:32	jayfields	which uses "should.clj"
20:32	jayfields	and the whole thing is launched via the Java code
20:32	jayfields	but I get java.lang.Exception: Can't refer to qualified var that doesn't exist (Example.clj:5)
20:33	jayfields	I assume because main is being defined on helpers.Should
20:33	jayfields	is there any way I can get around this?
20:33	ayrnieu	`(defn ~'main ...)
20:34	ayrnieu	,[`a `~'a]
20:34	clojurebot	[sandbox/a a]
20:34	jayfields	cool, thanks.
20:37	jayfields	okay, I can't figure it out from the examples, do you guys have any links to docs I can read?
20:38	ayrnieu	can't figure what out?
20:38	jayfields	if I change should to
20:38	jayfields	(defmacro should [form]
20:38	jayfields	`(defn ~'main [] ~@form))
20:38	jayfields	I get Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.contrib.test-is/is (Example.clj:5)
20:41	ayrnieu	two options. One: `(defn ~'main [] ~form) Two: (defmacro should [& form] ...)
20:42	ayrnieu	(macroexpand '(should (is (= 50 50)))) => (def main (clojure.core/fn is (= 50 50)))
20:42	timothypratley	silly question -> what's the equivalent of an enum in Clojure
20:42	ayrnieu	more idiomatic: [& exprs]
20:43	ayrnieu	timothy - symbols.
20:44	ayrnieu	jayfields, do you see the problem?
20:46	jayfields	it looks like 'is is expanding in a way that's causing me problems.
20:46	timothypratley	ayrnieu: I suppose I could create a macro that takes a sequence of symbols and defs them to a number:
20:46	jayfields	since I'm getting Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.contrib.test-is/is (Example.clj:5)
20:46	timothypratley	(myenum [foo bar baz])
20:47	ayrnieu	presently your macro takes its one argument, '(is (= 50 50)), and is flattening it onto the end of `(defn ~'main [] ...)
20:47	ayrnieu	timothy - or, you could think of symbols as already being named numbers.
20:48	jayfields	ah, right, thanks.
20:49	timothypratley	ayrnieu: they still need to be defed though right? So I figure if the enum is going to be put in a DB later for instance or sent over a wire... having a number would be handy...
20:49	durka42	you don't have to def keywords
20:49	timothypratley	I think I'm just dense
20:49	ayrnieu	timothy - for that, use a map.
20:49	timothypratley	ah keywords!
20:49	timothypratley	to the rescue
20:49	ayrnieu	,(class :a)
20:49	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Keyword
20:50	timothypratley	yeah ok so I can just use keywords and create a map if I need to translate them to external
20:50	durka42	right
20:50	timothypratley	thanks!!!
20:50	ayrnieu	hmph.
20:51	ayrnieu	,(map #(-> class ancestors count) ['a :a])
20:51	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: sandbox$eval--1633$fn
20:51	ayrnieu	,(map #(-> % class ancestors count) ['a :a])
20:51	clojurebot	(11 6)
20:51	ozy`	,cycle
20:51	clojurebot	#<core$cycle__3720 clojure.core$cycle__3720@45064f>
20:51	ozy`	,(cycle '(infinity))
20:51	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
21:11	ozy`	,(/ 0 0)
21:11	clojurebot	java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero
21:11	ozy`	,(/ 0.0 0.0)
21:11	clojurebot	java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero
21:11	ozy`	FINE
21:11	ozy`	be that way
21:13	Raynes	Why does Double/parseDouble throw a NumberFormatException? :(
21:14	Chouser	what arg did you give it?
21:14	Chouser	,(Double/parseDouble "x")
21:14	clojurebot	java.lang.NumberFormatException: For input string: "x"
21:14	cemerick	just out of curiosity, is r1155 when the (.staticFunction Classname args) form went away for invoking static functions?
21:14	Chouser	,(Double. "x")
21:14	clojurebot	java.lang.NumberFormatException: For input string: "x"
21:15	Chouser	cemerick: with just a quick glance at the patch, my guess is "no".
21:16	Raynes	Chouser: Doesn't matter what I give it.
21:17	cemerick	Chouser: Thanks for looking. I'm "porting" various projects up to clojure head (from pre-AOT clojure), and that change surprised me, I hadn't caught wind of it before
21:17	Raynes	,(Double/parseDouble "2.5")
21:17	clojurebot	2.5
21:17	Raynes	. . .
21:17	Raynes	Oh really?
21:17	Raynes	Hmmm
21:18	Raynes	I bet it's the version of Clojure I'm using. I'll have to check that.
21:18	Chouser	cemerick: git bisect is a decent way to pin down the exact commit that changed a behavior like that.
21:20	cemerick	Chouser: I'll check it out. I just did a quick commit-comment search using gitx, and 1155 is the only plausible one that mentions "static" in the last few months -- not that that means anything
21:20	cemerick	it's exceedingly ironic that we're now using git, after all of my pooh-poohing it :-P
21:22	Chouser	you're coming off of svn? has the transition gone well?
21:22	ayrnieu	the internet's a fad.
21:22	cemerick	pretty decently. The trick was figuring out a good time to flip the switch.
21:23	cemerick	We're actually in the middle of it now. This week is all about moving to git, "porting" to clojure head, and getting going with the new enclojure.
21:23	cemerick	oh, and moving from using ivy to git submodules for dependency management. That's been the trickiest needle to thread.
21:24	Chouser	hm, I don't know anything about git submodules.
21:24	cemerick	quite handy -- svn:externals for the most part
21:25	cemerick	they're sort of dumb for dependency management, but there's a good stopgap until we decide on what to use long-term among what's available: http://twitter.com/cemerick/status/1174146543
21:26	cemerick	s/there's/they're
21:29	vjr	howdy all!
21:29	notyouravgjoel	is there an any function that doesnt need clojure.parallel?
21:29	Chouser	notyouravgjoel: I can't imagine what you mean.
21:30	Chouser	vjr: hi
21:31	notyouravgjoel	sorry, the "pany" function in clojure.parallel
21:31	Chouser	gah, I'm getting dragged into writing some kind of object system. this is not what I meant to be doing.
21:31	Chouser	notyouravgjoel: ah, no, I think the only parallel fn in core is pmap
21:32	vjr	hello I'm using the riddell.us doco to setup slime. Getting Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: jline/ConsoleRunner?
21:32	notyouravgjoel	erm no no, I just wanted a simple way to return a random item from a list. not hard to implement, I know
21:32	vjr	The jar is in .closure
21:32	danlarkin	Chouser: re: object system: for conditions/restarts?
21:33	Chouser	danlarkin: :-/ yeah
21:33	vjr	sorry .clojure
21:34	danlarkin	Chouser: perk up!
21:34	Chouser	,(nth mylist (rand-int (count mylist)))
21:34	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: mylist in this context
21:34	notyouravgjoel	thanks though =)
21:34	Chouser	hah. yeah, anyway, like that. no builtin.
21:34	notyouravgjoel	haha, thats exacty what I did
21:35	notyouravgjoel	random note to the community: clojure is pretty sweet, I'm really enjoying using it
21:40	danlarkin	woo hoo, I have hash-map lookups working in my django templating language!
21:41	ryszard_szopa	what is the correct way to define an Exception class?
21:41	ryszard_szopa	gen-class?
21:41	Chouser	ryszard_szopa: I'm trying to make that unnecessary at this very moment.
21:42	danlarkin	ryszard_szopa: you've stumbled upon a mole-hill
21:42	Chouser	ryszard_szopa: but yes, gen-class or gen-interface
21:42	Chouser	and then you have to AOT compile
21:43	ryszard_szopa	Chouser: could you please expand AOT?
21:43	Chouser	Ahead Of Time
21:43	Chouser	http://clojure.org/compilation
21:44	Chouser	you need it for bullet 3 on that page: generate named class
21:45	Chouser	I'd recommend avoiding custom Exception classes if you can. There's a large number of builtin ones available.
21:45	Chouser	~exceptions
21:45	clojurebot	http://paste.lisp.org/display/74305
21:45	ryszard_szopa	hum, do I understand correctly that the present state of affairs regarding exceptions is not what most people would desire?
21:46	cemerick	IllegalArg, IllegalState, and IOException are generally sufficient for 90% of all error conditions
21:46	cemerick	IMvHO, anyway
21:48	ryszard_szopa	I don't know a lot about Java, so I'm a little puzzled
21:48	ryszard_szopa	in Python I am supposed to generate a new exception class every time I need it
21:48	ryszard_szopa	ie. when there's no exception defined for that specific situation
21:48	ryszard_szopa	is that not the case in Java?
21:49	walters	that is the case for Java (though reusing exceptions is also fine if there's one available)
21:50	Chouser	but generating a new named class in Clojure is often more trouble than its worth
21:50	cemerick	I think it depends on what circles you travel in. That approach can get pathological pretty fast, and has in various libraries. CannotConnectToCustomServerForThisReasonException, etc
21:50	Chouser	and there are better options, just not fully realized yet...
21:50	ryszard_szopa	Chouser: what did you mean when you said you were trying to make that unnecessary?
21:51	walters	cemerick: right, well i've seen people do exception + enum too
21:51	ryszard_szopa	Chouser: are you implementing a common lisp like condition/restart thing or something?
21:51	danlarkin	ryszard_szopa: I know what you mean about the difference coming from python
21:51	Chouser	Common Lisp has a condition/restart system that has a superset of the features of Java exception handling, and I'm working on a lib to provide many (most) of those features for Clojure.
21:52	Chouser	including defining new error (condition) types without requiring AOT compilation.
21:52	walters	a key difference with python is that python is source-interpreted (though it does have bytecode as a semi-implementation detail)
21:52	ryszard_szopa	Chouser: and how is it going?
21:53	Chouser	well, I've got the core of it sketched out, but now i'm on an object-system tangent that I don't like
21:53	Chouser	I've only been working on it for a couple evenings.
21:53	cemerick	walters: that's just as crazy to me. Who's writing recovery paths for all of these statically-defined error conditions?
21:54	ryszard_szopa	Chouser: doesn't the normal exception-handling mechanism interfere with what you are trying to do?
21:54	Chouser	possibly. :-)
21:55	walters	cemerick: there weren't a lot; i forget where i saw it though
21:56	cemerick	walters: I've seen some pretty pathological stuff. For that matter, http://paste.lisp.org/display/74305 is pretty bad as it is.
21:57	walters	cemerick: well, a large chunk of those are implementation bits
21:57	ryszard_szopa	Chouser: good luck then. I am counting on you ;-)
21:57	cemerick	walters: sure, but I won't let that blunt my rhetoric! ;-)
21:57	walters	cemerick: =)
21:58	walters	cemerick: but yeah, it's a valid point
22:25	notyouravgjoel	is there an else for cond?
22:26	Chouser	any true value will do. :else is conventional
22:26	notyouravgjoel	thanks
22:34	cemerick	notyouravgjoel: use :else as the always-true last "predicate" for cond
22:39	notyouravgjoel	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList (hello-world.clj:0) any ideas?
22:40	cooldude127	paste it
22:42	lisppaste8	notyouravgjoel pasted "class exception problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74902
22:42	notyouravgjoel	http://paste.lisp.org/display/74902
22:42	notyouravgjoel	=)
22:43	vjr	Is jline worth it?
22:43	notyouravgjoel	the last line is the problem, I believe
22:43	notyouravgjoel	or, that's what causes it to fail
22:44	danlarkin	vjr: I use rlwrap
22:44	vjr	danlarkin: thanks, i'll check it out
22:45	notyouravgjoel	ah
22:46	notyouravgjoel	i think it is the cons
22:47	arbscht	notyouravgjoel: yes, you're calling (currently-on) as a function
22:47	notyouravgjoel	oh my nevermind. That was moronic
22:47	vjr	finally got jline to work. Not the worst hair puller by far but still annoying.
22:48	danlarkin	vjr: what platform are you on?
22:48	vjr	danlarkin: mac os x
22:49	danlarkin	vjr: mmhmm, I've heard of annoyances on osx, that's why I use rlwrap and avoid it all together
22:49	danlarkin	sorry, altogether
22:49	vjr	danlarkin: gotcha. so much to learn so little time.
22:49	arbscht	notyouravgjoel: incidentally, for fns that are not overloaded, you can omit the extra parens. i.e. (defn foo [x] ...) instead of (defn foo ([x] ...))
23:01	notyouravgjoel	,-1/2
23:01	clojurebot	-1/2
23:09	vjr	danlarkin: rlwrap works very nicely. Thanks.
23:09	cemerick	anyone know why gen-and-load-class is commented out?
23:10	danlarkin	vjr: cheer
23:10	danlarkin	cemerick: replaced by :gen-class in the ns macro
23:11	cemerick	danlarkin: hrm, not entirely, especially if one is generating a lot of classes and impls progammatically....
23:15	Chouser	cemerick: generating classes is now only allowed when compiling.
23:15	Chouser	named classes, that is.
23:17	cemerick	Chouser: That's OK I think. I just need to have some shell of the class being generated loaded as well so that I can have type-hints right afterwards in the implementation fns.
23:18	Chouser	well, you can call gen-class directly (you don't have to use :gen-class in the 'ns' macro)
23:18	cemerick	that's the plan -- but by my reading, gen-class doesn't load the generated bytecode in addition to saving it...
23:20	Chouser	I think you're right. I wonder if that's intentional. Everything else that happens during compile is available for use immediately.
23:21	Chouser	wait, I've done this.
23:23	Chouser	well, I can't find it now, but I think I was doing type hints in the same .clj file as I did the :gen-class
23:26	cemerick	yeah, we've been doing that, but it required using gen-and-load-class as well as gen-and-save-class at "compile" time in order for the subsequent import and type hinting to not fail
23:26	cemerick	if gen-class does load the generated bytecode (perhaps while it's on its way through the compiler itself), then all will be well
23:27	Chouser	I'm having a hard time thinking of why it shouldn't, but I don't see in the code anywhere that it does.
23:31	cemerick	yeah, that's why I was asking :-)
23:31	cemerick	I guess I'll just jump in and see how it goes
23:33	cemerick	Or, maybe: has anything developed of late in terms of being able to have some designated map instances automagically implement javabean properties based on key/value pairs?
23:34	cemerick	I wouldn't mind not bothering with my "genbean" gizmo if something better has come along in the interim.
23:34	danlarkin	heh, un-bean
23:35	Chouser	cemerick: I don't think so, but Rich won't take any patches to struct maps. I think he wants it to do all your fanciness for you.
23:36	cemerick	Chouser: I guess I got my patch into PersistentStructMap just in time, then :-)
23:38	Chouser	this one's just sittin' there: http://code.google.com/p/clojure/issues/detail?id=46
23:39	cemerick	Chouser: is there any particular reason why struct maps are a DMZ at the moment? Big plans?
23:40	cemerick	I remember he mentioned generating slots in struct maps as java fields, which would be pretty slick.
23:41	cemerick	...though Object.clone isn't the fastest thing in the world (probably slower than consing an array and doing arraycopy, actually)
23:41	Chouser	yeah, I seem to recall it was something along those lines.
23:42	Chouser	I don't know if he has solid plans or not, but I think he's pretty busy redoing seqs right now
23:43	cemerick	I'm much too far away from that to be happy or sad about it.
23:44	Chouser	I ought to try the lazy branch and see how much of my code breaks with nil punning gone, but I'm too ... lazy.
23:44	cemerick	we're producing a lot of code lately, so I'm just trying to keep from tripping over breakage everywhere
23:44	cemerick	yeah, the loss of nil punning is going to be quite a shock, I think
23:45	cemerick	I almost feel like problems are being solved that I simply don't have, but I'm going to end up having to work with the solutions anyway, etc.
23:46	cemerick	'course, I barely figured out how to open the code editor after this last hiatus of mine :-)
23:47	Chouser	yeah, I understand that. I think it's telling though that both streams and lazier seqs require giving up nil punning.
23:47	Chouser	but that's just about the only thing that either of them break
23:47	cemerick	see, I can't even conceptualize the difference between the two. My own little blub paradox.
23:48	Chouser	which makes nil punning itself seem like a bit of a fragile construct that we might be better off without anyway, to future proof our code.
23:48	Chouser	oh, they're very different. I can understand if you don't want to put in the time to grok them at this point though.
23:48	Chouser	did you see the comparison Rich posted?
23:49	Chouser	http://paste.lisp.org/display/74721
23:49	cemerick	no. my unread clojure list folder has 1125 messages in it right now :-(
23:50	Chouser	streams are very stateful, like normal-language iterators with 'next!' functions and such
23:50	cemerick	gack
23:51	Chouser	yeah. he packaged them all up so they're pretty safe, and apparently they run 2x faster than seqs
23:51	cemerick	see, lazy-cons and lazy-cat serve me very well. Pythonesque generators don't interest me much at the moment.
23:52	Chouser	the lazy branch is a pretty minor tweak on what seqs already do. lazy-seq instead of lazy-cons, and you're not as likely to consume more than you need, even with deep pipelines.
23:52	cemerick	I guess I've got to be zen about it and all. Otherwise, I'm one of the arses that would go off and try to create "Common Clojure" or some nonsense. ;-)
23:52	cemerick	bad analogy, but it's late
23:52	blbrown	what does 'code should equal data' really mean. For example, http://paste.lisp.org/display/74903 here this data structure looks like a CSV file. Looks good to me, but at the same time, I feel like it contains bad desgn, say if I have to refactor the code.
23:53	Chouser	I haven't tried the lazy branch yet, but I don't think lazy-cons is going away in either branch. these are just new alternatives the provide performance and/or more laziness.
23:53	Chouser	nil punning is just about the only victim
23:54	cemerick	I'm guessing that, barring hitting a bug, we'll be sitting on the current head for a while. Lot of deep diving into domain-specific stuff over the next month or so.
23:54	cemerick	I'm glad things are moving along so nicely though, community and organization-wise. I wish I could do more (or, anything), but things have been nuts for a while.
23:58	blbrown	cemerick, contribute by writing code and talking about it. That is what I am doing.
23:59	cemerick	blbrown: the code flows aplenty. We're still trying to be mostly stealthy about things until we figure out a variety of tech and business issues, though.
23:59	cemerick	I talk up clojure pretty constantly locally, though, via http://wmassdevs.com and other forums