#clojure – 2009-02-02

2009-02-02

00:50	ricree	Hi. I'm new to clojure, and I'm having a tough time figuring out how to get it to work with java libraries. I've been trying to work through this post (http://briancarper.net/2008/10/31/qt4-in-lisp/), but when I try the import commands I keep getting ClassNotFoundException. Can anyone point me to a good resource for figuring out what I'm doing wrong here?
00:53	cp2	ricree are you using -cp when you invoke java or are you using add-classpath in the code
00:54	ricree	-cp
00:55	ricree	although I tried it in slime when I added the .jar files to my .clojure directory, and I get similar results
00:55	ricree	when I print out the classpath with (println (seq (.getURLs (java.lang.ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader)))) , it shows the jar files
00:56	cp2	i had a similar problem a few days ago, and it was because i was using both -cp and -jar
00:56	cp2	although im not entirely sure
00:57	durka42	when i had this problem i was running an old jvm, and the jars that wouldn't import were marked newer
00:58	ricree	I suppose that part of the problem is that I'm new to both clojure and java. I'm honestly having trouble sometimes keeping straight where exactly these things are supposed to be getting loaded from at times
01:00	durka42	ricree: join the club. classpaths are the bane of java programming
01:02	xitam	is there any way to use a sorted-map with a custom comparator? or some way to make a comparable object out of a struct?
01:04	xitam	what i'm trying to do is implement a-star search as sort of a beginner project with clojure, and i guess typically the "open set" of search nodes is implemented with a priority queue
02:44	cads	!seen rhickey_
02:45	cads	hrm
02:46	replaca	cads: it's three in the morning where he is
02:46	replaca	cads: insn't it?
02:46	cads	hehe
02:46	cads	I need to hang out here at american hours then
02:49	cads	I read somewhere where he writes, of the question "should I learn clojure through SICP?", that SICP is great for learning programming but that it won't really help with the task of learning the clojure toolset (I'm paraphrasing and might be wrong).
02:49	cads	And I was wondering what path would be recommended for someone learning clojure as a first language.
02:49	replaca	cads: yeah, that's about right
02:50	replaca	cads: what do you know already?
02:50	replaca	no programming yet?
02:50	cads	I know enough programming to make my way through the tutorials I can find
02:51	replaca	what languages do you know?
02:51	cads	but I have a friend I'd like to recommend lisp to
02:51	cads	I know ruby and haskell
02:51	replaca	For you, I'd do Stuart Holloway's book
02:52	cads	the one in beta?
02:52	replaca	you might want to do SICP and "On Lisp" for context
02:52	replaca	yeah
02:52	replaca	for your friend, I would think that Clojure would be a tough place to start
02:53	replaca	just cause I don't think the clojure-specific starter doc is there yet
02:53	replaca	and there's the extraneous confusion of a new language
02:53	cads	I'm tempted to recommend stuff like SICP and graham's "On Lisp" but that was frustrating to me, when my goal was to play with clojure
02:53	BigTom	cads: stu halloway's book is pretty good
02:54	BigTom	he has just added a chapter on functional programming
02:54	replaca	yeah, like rhickey said, they're not directly related
02:54	cads	what helped was the getting started guide, and rich's talk on clojure for lisp programmers
02:54	BigTom	I am working through SICP (very slowly!)
02:54	cads	which I wanted to complement him on
02:54	replaca	cads: that's what I used too, but I knew lisp & java coming in
02:55	BigTom	I knew java and was familiar with scheme
02:55	cads	I know lisp more from theory papers than playing with it, and it's great that clojure in many ways feels like a purer lisp than CL, while being more practical than scheme
02:56	replaca	you could say that (though others would flame you) :-)
02:56	BigTom	I love it :-) I finally get a Lisp that I can do at work
02:57	replaca	rhickey has made some great design decisions
02:57	cads	replaca: most CLers are all about CL, rather than the abstract ideal of lisp, I've found
02:57	replaca	CL is still fighting wars from the 80s so it feels clunky now, IMO
02:58	replaca	well they like the standard and the library
02:58	replaca	I can't blame them entirely
02:58	cads	but it's an old library and standard
02:58	replaca	after all, I'm the guy you implemented the CL format func for Clojure :-)
02:59	replaca	yeah, that's part of the problem
02:59	replaca	*you => who
03:00	cads	I have a hard time feeling like I could axiomatize CL like I've seen done in purer settings in papers
03:01	cads	and at the same time I have a hard time seeing how something that could be grasped mathematically by a single person would also be a pragmatic language to do programming in
03:01	replaca	yup, though Clojure may have some similar problems (cause of the Java interop)
03:01	replaca	in any case, gotta crash here in California!
03:01	cads	take care replaca
03:01	replaca	goodnight all!
03:32	Lau_of_DK	Top of the morning gents
03:32	Raynes	Good morning.
03:41	cgrand	Hello
03:55	Lau_of_DK	cgrand: Did you notice my new project on Github?
03:57	cgrand	not yet :-)
03:58	Lau_of_DK	I ripped your partition-by for it :)
03:58	Lau_of_DK	Along with shell-out
04:05	cgrand	you don't want to depend on contrib?
04:06	Lau_of_DK	No, not really
04:08	cgrand	Can't you load git.ui from the classpath? (Just asking, I don't know Jambi)
04:09	Lau_of_DK	I was fiddling with that last night, but maybe I was too tired
04:09	Lau_of_DK	I'm looking into just passing the content of the file to the UI loader
04:11	cgrand	What you call a port of Jambi to clojure is the end of engine.clj + slot.clj. Right?
04:11	Lau_of_DK	Yea, and as Chousuke reminded me, its not a port, its bindings. I need to update the README
04:12	cgrand	I like the tone of it (the README)
04:13	Lau_of_DK	Im glad you like it - because its informal ?
04:14	Lau_of_DK	Or because I actually took the time to write quality instructions for windows users?
04:17	cgrand	its informality... which instructions for windows users?
04:20	cgrand	be kind, I'm still uncaffeinated
04:21	Chousuke	is a dependency of contrib really that bat?
04:21	Chousuke	bad*
04:21	Chousuke	kind of defeats the point of contrib if people don't use it :/
04:22	Chousuke	having it as a separate dependency relieves you from the burden of maintaining the code, too :)
04:23	Raynes	Kind of like saying you don't want to depend on a languages standard library :\|
04:23	Raynes	language's*
04:25	Chousuke	well, clojure kind of has two standard libraries.
04:25	Lau_of_DK	Chousuke: To me Contrib is big, its not optimal in all regards (like, for obvious reasons I dont want to associate with contrib.sql), and I just dont want to fiddle with more namespaces, I dislike that system, so its easier just to cut/paste 100 lines and mention where I took them from
04:25	Lau_of_DK	cgrand: The instructions at the very bottom of the readme
04:26	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: if you compile your code though you won't get anything other than the parts you used from contrib :/
04:27	Lau_of_DK	I know - I said 'associate' :)
04:27	Chousuke	and frankly, caring about contrib.sql being there is just silly :)
04:28	Lau_of_DK	I think its a big dependency to force on your users
04:28	Lau_of_DK	I think I'll just make standard loot.clj with the snippits I need
04:29	Chousuke	it's not that big, is it. 632K with everything compiled in. :P
04:29	Lau_of_DK	Thats pretty huge compared to my entire project being 28k
04:29	Chousuke	it
04:29	Chousuke	it
04:29	Chousuke	gah
04:29	Chousuke	it's just a compile-time dependecy.
04:30	Chousuke	+n
04:30	Chousuke	though hm
04:30	Chousuke	never mind :P
04:30	Chousuke	thought of something that might be a problem, but isn't.
04:31	Lau_of_DK	haha
04:31	Lau_of_DK	I think the whole point of IRC is that you can have what we call a "reflection" without nessarcily sharing it, in case its useless :)
04:34	cgrand	To me Jambi appears to be a bigger dependency than contrib...
04:34	Lau_of_DK	It is
05:39	Chousuke	ooh, when did the clojure site get the "related functions" thingy? very nice.
05:49	leafw	is there any way to call "this"? In a proxy, or when creating a function to pass as a Runnable to a new Thread, I have no means of calling isInterrupted() from within the body of the thread, unless I do some hoops such as declaring first a "self" ref to nil and then altering it to contain the thread, and in the fn that works as Runnable, call (.isInterrupted @self)
05:49	leafw	example here: http://github.com/acardona/xmms2-clj/blob/c4745f0e19c75e67a08ae6fb7c1a8500f0663d93/xmms2.clj#L95
05:50	leafw	even though the dereferencing is not done in the context of the dosync transaction, it looks like and it is an ugly workaround.
05:54	achim_p	leafw: can't you use let?
05:54	achim_p	(let [runnable (fn [] (println "blah"))
05:54	achim_p	thread (Thread. runnable)]
05:54	achim_p	...)
05:54	leafw	achim_p: I tried, but it failed with null pointer
05:55	leafw	no, the problem is that isInterrupted is as a method of Thread, not interface Runnable. I would have to call (.isInterrupted Thread/currentThread)
05:55	leafw	which is not tragic, but looks silly
05:56	leafw	it would certanly simplify things ...
05:56	leafw	there's no need for a transaction in there.
05:56	Chousuke	the first argument to a proxy method is "this" isn't it? or was it automatically bound...
05:56	leafw	sorry, this is not a proxy. So in a proxy it's possible?
05:57	leafw	Chousuke: I think the first argument of any function in a proxy is the first argument of that function, not "this"
05:57	Chousuke	Each method fn takes an additional implicit
05:57	Chousuke	first arg, which is bound to 'this
05:57	leafw	oh really!
05:57	leafw	that is good news.
05:57	leafw	thanks.
05:58	Chousuke	that's in a proxy; with fns I don't think there's a way to refer to the thread you run the fn in, other than through Thread/currentThread
05:58	leafw	that's ok
05:58	leafw	I'll use that.
05:58	leafw	with the let [runnable suggestion.
05:58	achim_p	leafw: hmm, i don't really see why you can't instantiate the thread in a let form and call .isInserrupted on the let-bound symbol you assign the thread to ...
05:58	ayrnieu	(.start (Thread. (proxy [Runnable] [] (run [] (println (str "this: " this))))))
05:58	ayrnieu	this: clojure.proxy.java.lang.Object$Runnable@d22889
05:59	leafw	as always, clojure offers 3 ways to do something
05:59	leafw	thanks ayrnieu
05:59	Chousuke	probably more :)
05:59	Chousuke	the problem is finding the best.
06:00	leafw	I agree.
06:01	Chousuke	I think a closure will do as well, (let [t (Thread. #(do (something) (something-with t)))] (.start t))
06:02	ayrnieu	,(let [a #(list a 1)] (a))
06:02	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context
06:03	Chousuke	hm :/
06:03	achim_p	leafw: forget what i said, it's too early in the morning :) let doesn't work of course - mutual references
06:03	leafw	achim_p: no problem. I had tried that.
06:04	leafw	proxy is overkill. The runnable path is nice.
06:16	leafw	much cleaner now. Thanks guys.
06:21	lisppaste8	ayrnieu pasted "defmethod takes a MultiFn as its first argument (as opposed to: the name of one)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74717
07:44	turbo24prg	ayrnieu: that's tricky, but it makes sense, of course
07:49	ayrnieu	it's useful.
07:49	ayrnieu	Compare http://gist.github.com/56893 to http://gist.github.com/54950
08:15	Chousuke	ayrnieu: why don't you use autogensyms in the actor macro? :/
08:17	ayrnieu	in the second one? I didn't know about them.
08:17	Chousuke	you do now though? :)
08:18	ayrnieu	yeah, I use them in the ! !! arecur macros in the first one.
09:40	AWizzArd	rhickey: did you already decide if lazy-cat is an issue, with having the empty sequence being nil?
09:47	rhickey	AWizzArd: I'm working on laziness issues in a branch, and not going to spend any time on current laziness issues that will go away if the branch work becomes core
09:48	Chouser	are the fully-lazy branch and streams branch completely orthogonal?
09:51	AWizzArd	rhickey: makes sense
09:53	rhickey	Chouser: yes, basically I am still on the fence about streams. finding them, even when made safe as I have done, ugly,
09:53	Chouser	rhickey: really, that's interesting.
09:54	rhickey	but integrating streams means dealing with the ISeq/more issue, which opens the door to fully lazy sequences, which are very beautiful and Clojure-like
09:55	rhickey	so in the lazy branch I am fiddling with ISeq, with much success, in terms of backwards compatibility and full laziness, having made Clojure itself work with fully-lazy filter/map/concat replacements
09:56	rhickey	I was working on performance over the weekend, since full laziness requires another indirection in inner loops
09:56	ricree	can anyone point me in the right direction for using java libraries besides the core java libs? I've been trying to play around with some examples in jambi and java-gnome, but I can't seem to get at the library classes. As far as I can tell, the .jar files are in the classpath
09:57	rhickey	but it looks like making (rest x) == (seq (more x)) is a good recipe for backwards compatibility
09:59	ayrnieu	ricree, what are you trying to do that is failing?
09:59	rhickey	Chouser: streams are ugly since many of them will need state
09:59	rhickey	Chouser: their only attribute is performance at this point
10:00	Chouser	rhickey: yep, the contention there seems pretty inherent. You've got it bottled up pretty tight, but it still feels like you have to think about the statefulness inside.
10:01	rhickey	Chouser: the lazy branch has a major enhancement relating to clearing closed-over objects on a tail call of a one-time function, the key to avoiding accidentally hanging onto head when recursing
10:02	rhickey	I've been clearing locals for a while, but the closed-overs were a tricky problem the user can't solve
10:03	Chouser	very cool. did that require more analysis of the code to see what could be cleared?
10:04	rhickey	Chouser: I'm not yet sure how I'll expose it, if at all, but essentially you can adorn a fn* as :once-only, meaning it will only be run once, as is the case in delay and the new lazy-seq - the compiler picks up this once attribute and generates closed-over clearing code at the same point as local-clearing code
10:05	Chouser	ah.
10:05	rhickey	I need the attribute since clearing it depends on its being invoked only once, true for any call-and-cache mechanisms
10:06	Chouser	unexposed would mean only a few builtin cache mechanisms could use it?
10:06	rhickey	Chouser: right, at least initially
10:07	ricree	ayrnieu: well, trying to import anything is giving me trouble. For example, I've been trying to go through the example at http://briancarper.net/2008/10/31/qt4-in-lisp/ , and I can't get the initial import statement to work right. It gives me a NoClassDefFoundError
10:07	rhickey	delay being one of them, and the most likely to be used other than lazy-seq, which is very special at this point, giving generated fns new superclasses (i.e. other then AFn/RestFn)
10:08	AWizzArd	hmm
10:08	Chouser	ricree: try pasting your exact import line and java command-line, maybe someone can spot the error.
10:09	ricree	(ns clojure-qt4-demo
10:09	ricree	(:import (com.trolltech.qt.gui QApplication QPushButton QFont QFont$Weight)
10:09	ricree	(com.trolltech.qt.core QCoreApplication))
10:09	ricree	this is taken straight from the example on the site I linked
10:11	ayrnieu	That should work. You can try typing in just: com.trolltech.qt.gui.QApplication
10:12	ayrnieu	or you could look at (System/getProperty "java.class.path") to see if it really points to these jars.
10:12	Chousuke	ricree: you're not just adding the directory containing the jars to the CP, are you?
10:13	Chousuke	ricree: because it doesn't work that way.
10:13	ricree	The jars seem to be included when I print out the classpath
10:13	AWizzArd	Oh btw, can Clojures trampolines be used to provide stack-safety for all kinds of mutual recursive calls?
10:14	AWizzArd	I was not sure if they can be applied in any situation, or if there exist cases where they can't protect from stack overflows.
10:14	Chouser	AWizzArd: the function you give to 'trampoline' returns a function instead of making a tail call
10:14	AWizzArd	Chouser: yes, I understand that
10:15	Chouser	AWizzArd: so you have to write the function specifically to be used by 'trampoline'
10:15	AWizzArd	right
10:15	AWizzArd	But maybe there exist some really crazy cases of tail calls where this can't be done.
10:15	gnuvince	thickey_: I showed your site to the webdesigner I work with; he likes the way you show the websites :)
10:15	AWizzArd	I don't think so, but in a discussion with a mathematician (and known c.l.l troll) I was not so sure anymore.
10:15	ricree	Chousuke: I did, but I'm currently running this from slime, and my understanding was that it would load whatever .jars were in my ~/.clojure directory. That seems to be the case when I print out the classpath. Am I missing something?
10:16	Chouser	well, my point is that it has to be a well understood discrete system.
10:16	Chousuke	hmm :/
10:16	Chousuke	ricree: maybe one of the classes is misnamed in the article?
10:16	Chouser	AWizzArd: if you know your function is being called by 'trampoline', then sure -- any tail call you would make you simply replace with returning a closure.
10:17	Chousuke	ricree: you sure you have the correct JARs in the first place? :)
10:18	AWizzArd	In fact this other guy could not deliver an example so far, so I come to think that all cases can be mapped to trampolines.
10:20	ricree	Chousuke: I think so, but I'm not 100% sure. Just putting qtjambi-4.3.jar and qtjambi-linux32-gcc-4.4.3_01.jar into the classpath should be sufficient, right?
10:20	Chousuke	I guess :/
10:21	Chousuke	ricree: try running java manually?
10:21	Chousuke	ie. manually specify the java classpath and start a clojure repl.
10:22	ricree	I have, but I'll go ahead and give it another go to make sure
10:22	rhickey	AWizzArd: the argument there was that it wasn't a universal TCO if it had to be a discrete system (invoke specially by trampoline), which is true, trampoline is not universal TCO, just a la carte TCO for subsystems
10:24	AWizzArd	oki, I see
10:24	rhickey	AWizzArd: so, not a limitation of trampolines as an implementation technique for TCO (as was pointed out, it is quite commonly used by Scheme implementations), just that trampoline, as a library fn, is not universal TCO, and I never said it was
10:26	AWizzArd	ok
10:26	AWizzArd	thx
10:28	rhickey	AWizzArd: remember, don't feed trolls :)
10:28	ricree	Chousuke: I tried the command "java -cp qt-jambi-4.4.3_01.jar:qtjambi-linux32-gcc-4.4.3_01.jar:clojure.jar:jline-0.9.94.jar jline.ConsoleRunner" from the directory with the jar files. I get the following error when I tried to just type out one of the classes "java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: com.trolltech.qt.gui.QApplication (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)". I was able to get to classes like javax.swing.JFrame, so it looks like it's just having trouble
10:29	Chousuke	hmm
10:30	Chousuke	ricree: that's weird, it should exist :/
10:34	ricree	when I was trying to figure this out last night, someone suggested that it might be an older version of the java runtime. I checked, and everything is up to date from the Ubuntu repositories. Think it would be worth it to try installing things manually to make sure it is as up to date as possible?
10:34	gnuvince	recur sends you to the nearest recursion point, there's no way to arbitrarily choose one, right?
10:35	ricree	although I haven't been able to get it to work with any other jar files, so that doens't seem likely to be the problem
10:35	AWizzArd	What I find nice is that I get private mails of CLers who got interested in Clojure, asking questions and such
10:37	AWizzArd	gnuvince: right
10:37	ricree	ah well, I have to get ready for class. I'll try to figure this all out when I get done today. Thanks for the help, it's appreciated
10:38	gnuvince	AWizzArd: thanks
10:38	Cark	awizzard : there's again an argument about clojure on c.l.l ?
10:39	AWizzArd	Cark: well, every few days some known trolls try to convince Lispers that Lisp sucks. I show them some Clojure code and usually outperform their examples in Ruby or such. So, enough talk is going on in c.l.l
10:40	Cark	may i ask who you are on cll ?
10:40	AWizzArd	/who AWizzArd
10:40	Cark	i've been i follow this newsgroup for a couple years =)
10:41	Cark	ahh right
10:41	Cark	they've been pretty harch to you
10:42	Chousuke	what does c.l.l stand for? :P
10:42	AWizzArd	comp.lang.lisp
10:42	cooldude127	mhm
10:42	ayrnieu	http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp is one way to get there.
10:42	Chousuke	you know, I realised that about half a second after I asked.
10:42	cooldude127	lol
10:42	AWizzArd	;-)
10:44	cooldude127	b-trees suck
10:46	MarkVolkmann	I need to pass a string to a macro. I have the string in a variable created with def. How can I force the symbol created by def to be evaluated to its string value when I pass it to the macro?
10:46	Chouser	MarkVolkmann: you want to use the value of that def as it stands at compile time?
10:46	Cark	(defmacro bleh [var-name] `(println ~var-name))
10:47	MarkVolkmann	Yes
10:47	Cark	oh
10:47	Cark	so scratch that
10:47	MarkVolkmann	It's really a constant string in my usage.
10:47	Chouser	MarkVolkmann: you're willing to assume that the thing passed in to the macro is always the name of a Var?
10:47	MarkVolkmann	It's a URL path being passed the GET macro in Compojure.
10:48	cooldude127	MarkVolkmann: unless the macro already evaluates what you pass to it, you can'
10:48	cooldude127	t force it to
10:48	MarkVolkmann	I can't modify the macro.
10:48	Chouser	oh
10:48	MarkVolkmann	The macro wants a string.
10:48	ayrnieu	`(eval (annoying-macro ~myvar))
10:49	Chouser	hm, do you have a link to the macro?
10:49	ayrnieu	it's OK to use eval if you resent it!
10:49	Chouser	heh
10:50	Cark	(defmacro bleh [var-name] (let [a# var-name] `(println ~a#)))
10:50	Cark	?
10:51	MarkVolkmann	Remember though that I can't change the macro since it's supplied by Compojure.
10:51	Cark	that's not right anyways
10:52	MarkVolkmann	Are suggesting that I should override the GET macro?
10:52	Chouser	MarkVolkmann: do you have a link to the specific macro you're trying to use?
10:53	MarkVolkmann	It's defined in compojure/http/routes.clj. I'll see if I can find a URL that provides the source.
10:53	MarkVolkmann	http://github.com/weavejester/compojure/blob/87d9d6591bb5649e9ac99733eddfff992b33c7b4/src/compojure/http/routes.clj
10:54	Chouser	it's the GET macro?
10:54	MarkVolkmann	The parameter in question is "path".
10:54	Cark	i would wrap the macro in a function ... (defn call-the-macro [var] (the-macro var))
10:56	Cark	then you can either call (call-the-macro "coucou") or (call-the-macro coucou)
10:58	Chouser	Cark: I don't think that'll work.
10:58	lisppaste8	rhickey pasted "fully-lazy sequences vs. streams" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74721
10:58	Chouser	here's a simplified example: (defmacro ick [p] (let [x (str "<" p ">")] x))
10:58	Cark	didn't check the macro itself
10:58	Chouser	I can call: (ick "hi") and get "<hi>"
10:58	rhickey	fully-lazy sequences vs. streams - which would you rather write?
10:59	Chouser	but if I call (ick myvar) I get "<myvar>" rather than the contents of myvar
10:59	Cark	right
11:01	Cark	rhickey : the lazy-seq is easier on the eye
11:01	ayrnieu	blech: http://gist.github.com/56945 - actors, 'non-blocking' I/O, and an echo-server rough with debugging hooks. But it works until a client disconnects :-) I think I can do something with this.
11:04	rhickey	suggestions for alternatives to 'more' still welcome, you can look at that paste for typical usage. I had also considered 'etc'
11:05	Chouser	'more' is relatively common as a local name following &
11:05	rhickey	Chouser: yeah, etc too :(
11:06	Chouser	anyway, the lazy-seq is much easier for me to think about. Perhaps that would change if I grew accustomed to looking at stream code.
11:07	Chouser	for the lazy-seq version, I feel like I'm keeping track of two objects: the lazy-seq itself and the cons
11:07	rhickey	Chouser: actually map is one of the more straightforward stream code, being stateless
11:07	ayrnieu	MarkVolkmann - see clojure.contrib.apply-macro
11:07	rhickey	Chouser: lazy-seq might not be the best name, it's more of a lazy-seqable, or lazy-coll
11:08	ayrnieu	(let [hum "hi"] (apply-macro ick [hum])) => "<hi>"
11:08	ayrnieu	oh, that just uses eval. Nevermind.
11:08	Chousuke	ayrnieu: how's iterator-seq! different from iterator-seq?
11:08	Chouser	for the stream version, there's the coll, the iter, the stream, and the eos.
11:08	ayrnieu	Chousuke - the .remove is important.
11:09	Chousuke	hmm
11:09	Chousuke	oh, and in conds, I think :else is more idiomatic than "true"
11:09	thickey_	gnuvince: thanks =)
11:09	Chouser	the 'if' packs a surprising amount of mental complexity into one line.
11:11	ayrnieu	:else looks nice, thanks.
11:18	Chouser	MarkVolkmann: it looks to me like apply-macro's about as good as you're going to get.
11:19	Chouser	MarkVolkmann: but you might take it up with James Reeves, and see if he'd be willing to provide a less restrictive API.
11:19	MarkVolkmann	Thanks. Maybe I'll suggest to James Reeves that ... yeah, what you said.
11:20	Chouser	I think that if compile-ruote's call to compile-path-matcher were inside the syntax-quote instead of outside, you'd be able to use names that resolve to string instead of only string literals.
11:21	Chouser	presumably the reason it is this way instead is for performance.
11:22	Chouser	but that could be obtained by caching at runtime instead, I would think. There may be other solutions as well.
11:54	WizardofWestmarc	that was strange, got a "you are banned from the channel" message first time I tried to connect to the room
11:55	danlarkin	odd
12:01	rhickey	cycle has a nice def in fully-lazy land:
12:01	rhickey	(defn cycle
12:01	rhickey	"Returns a lazy (infinite!) sequence of repetitions of the items in coll."
12:01	rhickey	[coll] (lazy-seq (seq (concat coll (cycle coll)))))
12:01	AWizzArd	hmm, is concat lazy?
12:02	rhickey	AWizzArd: this is in the fully-lazy branch
12:02	AWizzArd	yeah nice
12:03	AWizzArd	Clojure gives people great training in thinking lazy
12:03	AWizzArd	I got some private mails from long-time lispers who asked me how my code worked.. they wonedered because lazyness what not in their minds.
12:03	rhickey	AWizzArd: Clojure is only a tiny bit lazy, compared to Haskell
12:05	AWizzArd	it's nice though
12:05	AWizzArd	full lazyness could perhaps sometimes result in strange behaviour, regarding memory at runtime.
12:06	ayrnieu	,(first (concat (repeat 1) (repeat 2)))
12:06	clojurebot	1
12:07	Chousuke	hmm.
12:08	ayrnieu	wizard, mibbit.com has been used for spamming.
12:10	WizardofWestmarc	ayrnieu: ah ha
12:14	WizardofWestmarc	may have to install an irc client again then.
12:18	cgrand	rhickey: can't cycle be similarly defined in current Clojure with lazy-cat?
12:23	clojurebot	svn rev 1243; [lazy] interim checkin
12:23	clojurebot	svn rev 1244; [lazy] moving off of lazy-cons - remove, takes, drops
12:26	rhickey	cgrand: probably, but this has no macro-fu
12:27	rhickey	e.g. maybe lazy-cat can go away when all sequence fns are fully lazy
12:28	kotarak	Huh? Big things going on?
12:29	gnuvince	what replaces it? Just cons?
12:29	AWizzArd	Hi K�te
12:29	rhickey	kotarak: this in the lazy branch only for now
12:29	Chouser	I think rhickey enjoys breaking ClojureScript even more than I enjoy breaking everyone else's code.
12:29	AWizzArd	;-)
12:39	cgrand	rhickey: ok it's nice but I don't understand the seq in (lazy-seq (seq (concat ...)))
12:41	rhickey	cgrand: lazy-seq may not be the best name, what is does is define a logical collection in terms of the seq returned by the body, since concat (and all the sequence fns) now returns a logical collection (e.g. not a seq necessarily) you need to call seq on it
12:42	rhickey	user=> (concat [] [] [])
12:42	rhickey	()
12:42	rhickey	user=> (seq (concat [] [] []))
12:42	rhickey	nil
12:43	AWizzArd	rhickey: (def x (concat [] [] [])) ==> will concat end immediately without even looking at the first arg?
12:43	rhickey	basically the body of lazy-seq must always yield a seq
12:43	Chouser	without the seq, cycle would return an infinite seq of empty things?
12:43	Chouser	could
12:44	replaca	Q: from a method in a :gen-class, how do I call a method in the superclass (skipping my own)? I.e., I have a method .write in my class, but I want to call (.write (super this)) instead of (.write this).
12:45	LordOfTheNoobs	Would it be rude of lazy-seq to wrap its body in a implicit seq?
12:45	Chouser	replaca: see :exposes-methods in the gen-class docstring
12:45	ayrnieu	clojure.core/proxy-call-with-super proxy-super supers
12:45	replaca	Chouser: I don't think that's what I want. I have a write method in my class already.
12:45	rhickey	Chouser: , no, you'll get ClassCast exception since the return value of concat is not an ISeq
12:46	replaca	ayrnieu: I'm not using proxy, but (ns (:gen-class))
12:46	Chouser	ayrnieu: that's for proxy, not gen-class
12:46	rhickey	all the sequence fns return Seqables, not ISeqs
12:47	Chouser	replaca: yes, but if you want to get at the super-classes write method, you can use :exposes-methods to get a new name for it, so you can call it.
12:47	replaca	Chouser: ahh, ok, let me read doc :-)
12:49	rhickey	AWizzArd: yes, in fully-lazy land all sequence fns consume only when absolutely necessary:
12:49	rhickey	user=> (def x (concat (map #(doto % prn) (range 10)) (map #(doto % prn) (range 10))))
12:49	rhickey	#'user/x
12:49	rhickey	user=> (first x)
12:49	rhickey	0
12:49	rhickey	0
12:49	replaca	Chouser: yup, that's it. Thanks! (This syntax feels a little unnatural)
12:50	Chouser	rhickey: oh, lazy-seq demands an ISeq, not just a Seqable?
12:52	replaca	Q: do call the exposed method as (.super-write this ...) or (super-write this ...)?
12:52	rhickey	Chouser: right, it creates a closure that implements seq for its return value, so body must yield ISeq, lazy-seq yields Seqable
12:53	Chouser	replaca: former, I believe.
12:53	rhickey	(lazy-seq body) -> x, (seq x) calls body
12:53	rhickey	and caches
12:54	replaca	Chouser: thanks
12:55	Chouser	which brings me to LordOfTheNoobs' question -- why can't lazy-seq call seq on its arg? That's usually pretty cheap if you already have an ISeq, and would be quite handy if you don't.
12:56	technomancy	is anyone in the Seattle area going to SeaFunc this week?
12:57	rhickey	Chouser: it could do - I'm trying to do without that at present
12:57	technomancy	looks like an interesting meeting
12:59	hiredman	sounds interesting, but it might interfere with my social reclusing, and it is, well downtown
12:59	technomancy	hiredman: you're in Seattle?
13:00	hiredman	north seattle
13:00	technomancy	it's in the University district... not really downtown
13:00	technomancy	but that doesn't mean the parking is decent
13:01	rhickey	LordOfTheNoobs: sorry, I missed your q about lazy-seq calling seq, it could, I'll look into the perf...
13:01	technomancy	heh: "The merits of the FP approach are highly debateable. Much more clear, is that people who debate these issues are interesting."
13:01	Kerris7	actions vs words
13:02	technomancy	hiredman: looks like it bounces around to different locations, but this one is at Ruby restaurant in the U district.
13:02	hiredman	technomancy: I am looking at the google streetview
13:07	hiredman	technomancy: I work up in south shoreline (looking at the clojure google map)
13:10	rhickey	perf looks ok, now lazy-seq calls seq on body, so:
13:10	rhickey	(defn cycle
13:10	rhickey	"Returns a lazy (infinite!) sequence of repetitions of the items in coll."
13:10	rhickey	[coll] (lazy-seq (concat coll (cycle coll))))
13:11	technomancy	hiredman: oh cool; I'm right on 155th.
13:11	technomancy	but I work downtown
13:12	hiredman	danlarkin: took me a while to
13:12	hiredman	too
13:13	danlarkin	hiredman: care to share? :)
13:13	hiredman	you have to click "edit" on the side bar, and then there is a menu sort of thing across the top
13:13	hiredman	with a pin icon
13:13	rhickey	only 9 lazy-cons calls left...
13:13	clojurebot	svn rev 1245; [lazy] moving off of lazy-cons, lazy-seq calls seq on body
13:14	danlarkin	hiredman: ohhh, I bet I have to bed logged in to google. that'd explain it
13:15	hiredman	huh
13:15	hiredman	SeaFunc (a group of Seattle functional programmers formerly known as SeaLUG - Seattle Lisp Users Group)
13:15	technomancy	guess they wanted to avoid being called SLUG
13:16	kotarak	Guys from Denver, shouldn't take over the idea: DeFunc....
13:17	WizardofWestmarc	haha that'd be great
13:17	WizardofWestmarc	I'd have to go simply because of the awesome name
13:22	duck1123	hmm... I wonder if anyone likes MiFunc
13:22	Lau_of_DK	Hi all
13:23	ayrnieu	duck, do you mean clojure.lang.MultiFn ?
13:23	WizardofWestmarc	heya Lau
13:23	ayrnieu	oh, nevermind.
13:25	cooldude127	WOOHOO i can take a break from stupid java homework, my b-tree works
13:26	Lau_of_DK	woohoo :)
13:28	AWizzArd	Hi the Lau
13:29	ayrnieu	,(let [mi (new clojure.lang.MultiFn (fn [a & _] a) :default)] (doto mi (defmethod :add [_ a b] (+ a b)) (defmethod :sub [_ a b] (- a b))) [(mi :add 2 3) (mi :sub 2 3)])
13:29	clojurebot	DENIED
13:36	WizardofWestmarc	here I thought it was just a net split
13:39	cooldude127	technomancy: yay, imenu is working with clojure-mode
13:42	technomancy	cooldude127: great!
13:42	technomancy	have you tried the installer?
13:43	cooldude127	technomancy: no, not yet, i'm afraid to mess with my setup
13:43	cooldude127	i'm using clojure-slime-config tho
13:44	technomancy	cooldude127: M-x clojure-install won't touch your current setup if you give it a test location when it asks you where to install
13:44	technomancy	cooldude127: I ask just because I'd like to get it tested on more systems than my own
13:44	cooldude127	technomancy: yeah ok i can test
13:49	cooldude127	technomancy: can haz bugs
13:49	cooldude127	it tried to check everything out into ~/.emacs.d
13:50	technomancy	cooldude127: what location did you give it when prompted?
13:50	cooldude127	technomancy: ~/sr
13:50	cooldude127	c
13:50	cooldude127	~/src
13:50	clojurebot	Excuse me?
13:50	technomancy	heh
13:50	cooldude127	clojurebot: this doesn't involve you
13:50	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
13:50	technomancy	cooldude127: what's the value of clojure-src-root then?
13:51	cooldude127	technomancy: i set that to ~/src as well before i did this. normally it's ~/lisp/clj
13:53	cooldude127	technomancy: somehow that (cd src-root) isn't doing its job
13:53	technomancy	cooldude127: that's really strange; there's no mention of ~/.emacs.d anywhere in the code
13:54	technomancy	clearly
13:54	technomancy	maybe I need to move the cd inside the shell-command call
13:54	cooldude127	technomancy: maybe, cuz it depends on which buffer i'm in, the result of (pwd) is different
13:56	cooldude127	technomancy: it doesn't make sense tho. if i do M-: (cd clojure-src-root), then do M-! pwd, i get ~/src (expanded)
13:57	technomancy	yeah; I'm not sure how that works. it seems like putting it in shell-command would be pretty foolproof though.
13:57	cooldude127	technomancy: yeah, like adding (shell-command src-root) before the dolist ?
13:58	cooldude127	cuz i could try that real quick
13:58	technomancy	cooldude127: I was thinking (shell-command (format "cd %s; %s" src-root cmd))
13:59	cooldude127	technomancy: oh that works
13:59	cooldude127	let me try that
14:01	cooldude127	technomancy: that is working, i think, emacs kinda freezes up, but that's its fault, it's checking out into the right directory
14:01	ryszard_szopa	Hi, I've got a question about classpaths and clojure
14:01	technomancy	cooldude127: yeah, the slime checkout takes forever because there's so much history
14:01	technomancy	cooldude127: considering using CVS for that, but I hate CVS, so it's a rock and a hard place.
14:01	ryszard_szopa	I understand that I am supposed to set the classpath at the command line
14:02	cooldude127	technomancy: i think i got a timeout on that git repo tho
14:02	cooldude127	last time
14:02	ryszard_szopa	but what should I do when developing in the REPL?
14:02	ryszard_szopa	add-classpath seems to have no effect
14:02	technomancy	cooldude127: I could do a shallow clone, but IIUC that means you wouldn't be able to do an update in the future.
14:02	hiredman	clojurebot: add-classpath
14:02	clojurebot	add-classpath is bad, avoid it. I mean it!
14:02	cooldude127	ryszard_szopa: are you using the command-line repl or slime?
14:02	technomancy	I thought it was ok on the repl
14:02	ryszard_szopa	slime
14:03	technomancy	as long as you promise you're just screwing around. =)
14:03	technomancy	ryszard_szopa: set the swank-clojure-extra-classpaths variable
14:03	cooldude127	ryszard_szopa: you should configure your swank-clojure-extra-classpaths
14:03	cooldude127	technomancy: i hate you
14:03	technomancy	heh
14:03	technomancy	it should be a list of all the jars/dirs you want apart from clojure.jar itself
14:04	ryszard_szopa	cooldude127: no way of doing that via something like ,l in slime?
14:04	cooldude127	ryszard_szopa: not that i know of
14:04	technomancy	ryszard_szopa: I think you will need to restart slime
14:05	ryszard_szopa	Huh... I am not sure I like the idea of restarting the repl each time I realized I need to use yet another library...
14:05	technomancy	kill all the slime-related buffers as well as the inferior-lisp buffer
14:05	technomancy	ryszard_szopa: it's annoying, but that's how the classpath works.
14:05	gnuvince	ryszard_szopa: see my blog: http://gnuvince.net
14:05	cooldude127	ryszard_szopa: well, i haven't really noticed it as a problem, i don't really work with too many other libraries besides clojure-contrib, at least in the middle of a project
14:05	gnuvince	ryszard_szopa: I posted a clojure-add-classpath command for Emacs.
14:06	gnuvince	ryszard_szopa: you run it before starting SLIME (or else you need to stop and start it again)
14:06	cooldude127	technomancy: i have problems again. now it checks everything out, but slime won't load. no classdeffound clojure/main
14:07	technomancy	crapp�
14:08	cooldude127	technomancy: i think i know why, clojure didn't compile
14:08	cooldude127	i think it's the same problem as the other stuff
14:08	technomancy	if clojure didn't compile, it should complain with a message and stop
14:08	cooldude127	technomancy: well it didn't, cuz i don't have any jars
14:10	cooldude127	technomancy: oh wait, maybe that's not it, but one problem is that those (cd ...) lines use clojure-src-root instead of src-root
14:10	ryszard_szopa	gnuvince: I see, thanks. So it seems that Clojure is more like than like CL in terms of loading libraries.
14:10	technomancy	gnuvince: are you sure you don't want that function to use add-to-list on swank-clojure-extra-classpaths instead?
14:11	cooldude127	ryszard_szopa: if you were saying more like java than CL, then yes it is
14:11	technomancy	cooldude127: oh, of course... that's the problem
14:11	cooldude127	technomancy: yeah my clojure-src-root was my original one this time
14:12	cooldude127	technomancy: shit it's doing it wrong again
14:12	ryszard_szopa	cooldude127: yeah, that's what I was saying ;-)
14:13	cooldude127	technomancy: now it's checking it out into my home folder, wtf!?
14:13	gnuvince	technomancy: what would it change?
14:13	technomancy	cooldude127: yow.
14:14	technomancy	cooldude127: comment out the slime line for testing the checkout stuff; should make it quicker
14:14	cooldude127	technomancy: this time i didn't type anything, i just accepted the default ~/src. could it possibly be misreading the default and using "" ?
14:14	cooldude127	k
14:14	technomancy	cooldude127: that's possible
14:15	technomancy	cooldude127: yeah, it doesn't handle default values correctly. which of course I never tested because I already had a checkout in ~/src. =)
14:15	cooldude127	technomancy: how do we fix?
14:16	shoover	can someone please tell clojurebot why add-classpath is bad?
14:16	shoover	(and by extension, tell the rest of us)
14:16	cooldude127	technomancy: ok well it's definitely the default, cuz entering it in does it right
14:17	technomancy	cooldude127: (if (string= src-root "") (setq src-root clojure-src-root))
14:17	cooldude127	technomancy: what's that last parameter of clojure-src-root in the read-from-minibuffer call?
14:18	technomancy	cooldude127: it's supposed to provide a default value, but it doesn't.
14:19	cooldude127	technomancy: "However, in the usual case (where read is nil), read-from-minibuffer ignores default when the user enters empty input and returns an empty string, """
14:19	technomancy	wtf... the default value only works if you're reading a lisp object. that's... not useful.
14:19	cooldude127	technomancy: lol
14:20	cooldude127	technomancy: what about read-string?
14:20	technomancy	cooldude127: i'm just going to force the default value afterwords if there's an empty string
14:20	cooldude127	technomancy: it looks like read-string tho is what you want
14:21	technomancy	cooldude127: just pushed out a new version to my clojure-mode "installer" branch on github
14:21	technomancy	oh?
14:21	cooldude127	http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/elisp/html_node/Text-from-Minibuffer.html
14:21	ryszard_szopa	when I do (setq swank-clojure-extra-classpaths '("/Applications/Processing.app/Contents/Resources/Java")), clojure slime refuses to start
14:21	technomancy	oh, that's more like it
14:22	ryszard_szopa	it says: java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: clojure.lang.RT (basic.clj:261) and some "No such var" exceptions
14:22	technomancy	ryszard_szopa: the classpath might be picky about trailing slashes
14:22	technomancy	but it shouldn't cause that kind of error. =\
14:23	cooldude127	technomancy: so it looks like it should be (read-string (concat "Install Clojure in (default: " clojure-src-root "): ") nil nil clojure-src-root)
14:23	technomancy	cooldude127: sounds good; will push out that fix
14:23	cooldude127	technomancy: i'm doing it right now to test
14:24	hiredman	ryszard_szopa: I think I have seen that before
14:25	hiredman	can you pastebin the whole exception?
14:25	hiredman	lisppaste8: url?
14:25	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
14:25	cooldude127	technomancy: yeah the default value is working now
14:26	lisppaste8	ryszard pasted "clojure won't start, classpath issues" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74730
14:26	technomancy	cooldude127: the format invocations are horribly wrong though
14:26	cooldude127	technomancy: are they? mine work
14:26	technomancy	the ones I pushed, I mean
14:27	cooldude127	yeah, you forgot your s's
14:28	cooldude127	technomancy: i actually didn't even need to do a (format) for the ant ones
14:28	cooldude127	which is weird as hell
14:28	technomancy	so the cd lisp function works for ant but not for git?
14:28	cooldude127	technomancy: yeah wtf?
14:30	technomancy	cooldude127: ok, I found another box to test it on; seems to work fine there though it's also an ubuntu system. what are you running?
14:30	cooldude127	technomancy: i've been doing my work in my emacs-starter-kit code, let me push it and you can see what i have working
14:30	cooldude127	technomancy: this is emacs 23 cocoa on OS X
14:31	technomancy	cool. will want to test in 22 as well, but that makes me feel better that it works on Macs
14:31	hiredman	ugh
14:31	hiredman	he left
14:32	hiredman	ryszard_szopa: there is some member of clojure.lang.RT that used to be public, but became private that swank-clojure is trying to call
14:33	cooldude127	technomancy: http://tinyurl.com/amvszn
14:35	technomancy	looks good
14:35	cooldude127	technomancy: yeah seems to work, at least for me
14:36	ryszard_szopa	hiredman: oh... so do you think svn-up swank-clojure may help?
14:36	cooldude127	more like a git pull
14:36	cooldude127	swank-clojure is on git isn't it?
14:36	hiredman	ryszard_szopa:
14:36	hiredman	maybe
14:37	hiredman	you can change clojure.lang.RT/ROOT_CLASSLOADER to (clojure.lang.RT/baseLoader) in basic.clj
14:37	hiredman	maybe
14:39	ryszard_szopa	git pulling made it work. Thanks!
14:40	technomancy	cooldude127: what do you think about switching to CVS for slime? the git clone takes a long time...
14:41	cooldude127	technomancy: i think it might be a good idea, git doesn't really gain much in this case
14:41	cooldude127	if you're installing this way, you're probably not hacking on slime
14:41	duck1123	I think that's the first time I've heard CVS recommended over git because git was too slow
14:41	cooldude127	lol
14:41	cooldude127	cvs doesn't carry a bunch of history
14:42	technomancy	right; the only downside is that it would depend on four things instead of three (git, jvm, ant)
14:42	duck1123	can't you tell git to not dl all the history
14:42	cooldude127	duck1123: then you can't update apparently
14:42	duck1123	ahh... I've never tried it
14:42	cooldude127	me neither, technomancy said it :)
14:43	cooldude127	i think i'm gonna install with this for real now, not just testing
14:44	technomancy	never tried it; that's just what I've heard
14:45	duck1123	shallow coppies can't be cloned or fetched from or pushed to/from
14:45	duck1123	you should still be able to fetch/pull into
14:45	cooldude127	duck1123: then how do we do such a thing?
14:45	cooldude127	i'm about to run it, i want to make this happen :)
14:45	duck1123	git clone --depth 2 git://....
14:45	technomancy	duck1123: ah; I must have misunderstood
14:46	Chousuke	I find git to be faster despite the fact it clones the whole history.
14:46	duck1123	I just checked the docs
14:46	technomancy	Chousuke: I haven't actually tried this; it's just a hunch
14:46	technomancy	slime has lots of history though
14:46	cooldude127	Chousuke: in general, yes, but with something like slime, it's slow as crap
14:46	duck1123	I wonder if you can pull in more history after the fact
14:46	Chousuke	cooldude127: it took a few minutes for me.
14:46	Chousuke	not exactly slow.
14:46	Chousuke	emacs took a bit longer.
14:47	duck1123	I had problems git cloning slime on friday, I might try this as well
14:47	cooldude127	Chousuke: cvs doesn't take nearly that long tho, and this clojure-install thing makes emacs hang until it's odne
14:47	cooldude127	*done
14:48	Chousuke	hmm, I might just test it
14:48	duck1123	doing it right now
14:49	Chousuke	github is usually slow though. ./
14:49	Chousuke	or well, slowish
14:49	technomancy	just pushed out a fixed version that uses a shallow clone for slime
14:50	technomancy	http://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/blob/9219f13d87f4e98feeca01dc6079c1c558b907d6/clojure-mode.el
14:50	Chousuke	... slow internets, only 6kB/s \|
14:50	Chousuke	not a git problem though.
14:50	technomancy	if anyone else could test this I'd appreciate it
14:51	cooldude127	technomancy: i don't know if it actually made it any better
14:51	Chousuke	the whole slime repo seems to be about 3MB
14:51	Chousuke	with full history.
14:51	duck1123	--depth 2 seems like it is still downloading a lot
14:51	technomancy	Chousuke: 33MB for me
14:51	Chousuke	technomancy: unpacked?
14:51	cooldude127	WOO i have up-to-date slime and stuff
14:51	technomancy	Chousuke: from git://git.boinkor.net/slime.git
14:52	cooldude127	clojurebot: latest?
14:52	clojurebot	latest is 1245
14:52	technomancy	Chousuke: .git itself is 30MB. haven't packed it; this is a fresh clone.
14:52	Chousuke	technomancy: the transported size is about 3MB
14:52	technomancy	with --depth 2 it took 5.350 secs
14:52	Chousuke	or maybe closer to 4 actually.
14:53	cooldude127	technomancy: so the git repo for clojure can be a few revs behind
14:53	Chousuke	Receiving objects: 28% (3867/13438), 1.10 MiB \| 6 KiB/s
14:53	Chousuke	why are my intertubes so clogged right now :/
14:53	cooldude127	lol. brb
14:54	duck1123	I'm doing an offlineimap sync of my gmail account as well
14:54	Chousuke	and then sometimes it looks like my ISP decides to put me on low-speed zone.
14:54	Chousuke	completely randomly.
14:56	duck1123	what git repos are you pulling from nablaone's on github?
14:56	Chousuke	yeah
14:59	technomancy	should work in 22 now
15:03	duck1123	so you guys were able to clone slime recently, or no? I'm still getting "Cannot obtain needed blob abe81d1e64ba1dba47e4a1d81ee2c83a124615f4"
15:04	technomancy	duck1123: you could try git://git.boinkor.net/slime.git
15:04	technomancy	but the github one works for me with depth 2
15:05	duck1123	ah ha. --depth works over git:// but not http://
15:06	duck1123	The firewall at my work blocks the git:// port
15:06	technomancy	weak
15:07	rhickey	One more lazy-cons to go - in for
15:07	duck1123	I was trying to set up all of my dependencies for my dotfiles as submodules in git, and I needed Url's that would work both at work and home
15:10	cooldude127	technomancy: so is clojure-install now pretty much finalized?
15:11	technomancy	cooldude127: I'm happy with it as long as it works on 23, 22, gnu/linux, and OS X.
15:11	technomancy	if it works on w32 then great, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. =)
15:11	cooldude127	yeah i wouldn't
15:11	technomancy	anyway, I'll probably send a pull request to jochu to see if it can get merged upstream
15:11	technomancy	then I'll ping the mailing list and toss up a blog post.
15:12	cooldude127	cool
15:12	cooldude127	i'm happy to have up-to-date stuff
15:12	technomancy	oh right; well there still needs to be an update function; this just does the initial clone.
15:13	technomancy	but that should be easy to write.
15:13	cooldude127	technomancy: yeah, just git pull in each dir
15:13	technomancy	and recompile
15:13	technomancy	but yeah
15:13	cooldude127	oh yeah that too
15:14	technomancy	if you've got some spare cycles... patches are accepted. =)
15:14	technomancy	preferably to the clojure-mode repo rather than the starter-kit
15:14	cooldude127	Chouser: you get your custom-print stuff in yet?
15:14	cooldude127	technomancy: i'll see if i have time, but my elisp skills are quite bad
15:15	technomancy	cooldude127: well this seems like a great place to get started
15:15	cooldude127	lol true
15:16	cooldude127	well, i'm just in health class, so i got time, let's see what i can do :)
15:16	Chouser	rhickey: ha! 'for' only took you an hour to knock out the first time, right?
15:17	Chouser	cooldude127: nope, haven't even brought it up on the group yet.
15:17	cooldude127	technomancy: why don't i get the installer branch when i clone the repo?
15:17	Chouser	cooldude127: do you have a good (simple?) use case?
15:17	cooldude127	Chouser: ok, just wondering, i'm still using my crappy hack
15:18	cooldude127	Chouser: um, i don't know if it's simple, but i'm writing some code that deals with matrices, and i have it so they print out in columns and rows
15:18	cooldude127	kind of like matlab
15:20	rhickey	Chouser: heh - for should be a lot easier now, but...
15:20	technomancy	cooldude127: git clone just clones master; you need to add it as a remote
15:20	technomancy	cooldude127: or use the github gem; it's pretty handy for stuff like this
15:20	cooldude127	technomancy: i think git checkout --track worked for me
15:21	technomancy	oh, right
15:21	rhickey	its full of workarounds for partial laziness as is
15:21	rhickey	it's
15:23	cooldude127	technomancy: clojure-update probably doesn't need a src-root, shouldn't it just use clojure-src-root, since it would assume it's already setup correctly?
15:24	technomancy	cooldude127: that sounds like a good assumption
15:24	technomancy	cooldude127: would be good to provide a helpful error message if it hasn't been set correctly (or if the install hasn't happened) though.
15:25	cooldude127	yeah i was gonna check if the appropriate directories were there
15:25	technomancy	might be enough just to check the return value of shell-command
15:25	cooldude127	oh yeah maybe
15:25	technomancy	it'll be zero if it succeeded
15:26	cooldude127	yeah
15:26	cooldude127	emacs lisp is like cl, where let is not sequential, that's let*, right?
15:26	ayrnieu	right.
15:27	cooldude127	k
15:27	gnuvince	right.
15:29	Chouser	cooldude127: oh, that is a good example. still readable by 'read', just \newline instead of \space in a few places.
15:29	cooldude127	Chouser: not exactly
15:29	Chouser	oh
15:30	cooldude127	not readable by read at all
15:30	Chouser	well, that could be my example anyway. :-)
15:30	cooldude127	lol
15:30	cooldude127	that works then
15:31	Chouser	cooldude127: out of curiosity, though, why do you need prn and friends to print in this format, instead of just having a new function?
15:31	cooldude127	Chouser: i want the repl to print it this way, instead of having to call a function everytime
15:31	Chouser	oh, sure.
15:31	cooldude127	that's how i did it at first, but it was infuriating
15:32	cooldude127	technomancy: i have something here that i'm about to test for the update function
15:32	ayrnieu	,(doc repl)
15:32	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: repl in this context
15:32	ayrnieu	,(doc clojure.main/repl)
15:32	clojurebot	"([& options]); Generic, reusable, read-eval-print loop. Reads from in and writes to out. in must either be an instance of LineNumberingPushbackReader or duplicate its behavior of both supporting .unread and collapsing CR, LF, and CRLF into a single \\newline. Options are sequential keyword-value pairs. Available options and their defaults: - :init, function of no arguments, initialization hook default
15:32	ayrnieu	:print is one of the options
15:33	cooldude127	ayrnieu: but how do i make that happen in the normal slime repl?
15:34	ayrnieu	I don't know what slime does.
15:34	hiredman	clojurebot: slime?
15:34	clojurebot	slime is icky
15:35	cooldude127	technomancy: i think i have something that works, but it displays a buffer with the ant results, why doesn't yours do that? i ripped your compiling code verbatim (except for a variable name change)
15:35	cooldude127	ayrnieu: ok
15:35	cooldude127	well this is working for me at the moment
15:38	technomancy	cooldude127: it could be related to the length of the output
15:38	technomancy	check the shell-command docstring
15:39	cooldude127	technomancy: i can send you a patch of what i have for a clojure-update function
15:39	cooldude127	and you are right, it's long enough now to show
15:39	cooldude127	i guess
15:40	technomancy	if you wrap it in a save-window-excursion, it will probably suppress the buffer being shown
15:40	technomancy	cooldude127: no need for a patch if it's just a single new function; you can just lisppaste it
15:41	cooldude127	technomancy: ok i will after i try the save-window-excursion
15:42	cooldude127	technomancy: that's probably better, the diff is weird cuz i used your little C-c n shortcut and it changed a lot of indentation
15:42	cooldude127	technomancy: ok save-window-excursion suppressed it, i'll paste it real quick
15:44	technomancy	yeah, definitely don't want to clean up whitespace in the same commit as real features
15:45	kefka	Which do you recommend for accessing MySQL: SBCL + CLSQL or Clojure + JDBC?
15:45	lisppaste8	cooldude127 pasted "clojure-update emacs function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74734
15:45	cooldude127	technomancy: lisppaste for emacs is soooo cool
15:46	technomancy	that it is. =)
15:46	cooldude127	technomancy: i find that the autoloads for it don't work tho
15:46	hiredman	well, obviously, the one with clojure...
15:46	kefka	Assume I can do it with either Clojure or SBCL
15:46	cooldude127	like when i try to just use one of the lisppaste functions, it says it can't load the file
15:46	technomancy	cooldude127: yeah, I think that's a bug in elpa
15:47	cooldude127	technomancy: it works once i explicitly load the lisppaste.el file
15:47	technomancy	cooldude127: i'd collapse your let* into a let with a single variable
15:47	kefka	I started down the SBCL + CLSQL road, but CLSQL has a lot of missing features that are pissing me off... plus it seems not to be a very "lively" project in terms of development
15:47	cooldude127	technomancy: you're welcome to, i did it for clarity in my development, which i expected to be longer
15:47	cooldude127	lol
15:47	ayrnieu	I think that Java doesn't have very solid libraries for accessing MySQL. It's an undernourished language with few developers or business use, you see.
15:48	cooldude127	ayrnieu: jdbc does work tho
15:48	WizardofWestmarc	I think he was joking
15:48	technomancy	cooldude127: sure; I'll make the change.
15:48	technomancy	thanks for the codes.
15:48	cooldude127	technomancy: no problem, that didn't take very long. i love it
15:48	kefka	WizardofWestmarc: I hope so...
15:48	WizardofWestmarc	at some point I want to play with sqlite in clojure, but haven't gotten around to it
15:48	kefka	WizardofWestmarc: I took ayrnieu seriously, because I thought "it" meant MySQL
15:48	cooldude127	i like sqlite
15:48	cooldude127	yeah me too
15:49	WizardofWestmarc	um, mysql is a pretty heavily supported codebase...
15:49	kefka	WizardofWestmarc: e.g. MySQL undernourished compared to enteprise products
15:49	kefka	WizardofWestmarc: Cool.
15:49	kefka	cooldude127: How hard is JDBC to learn?
15:49	technomancy	it's too bad mysql isn't more closely connected with Sun... then it would get better Java support.
15:50	WizardofWestmarc	technomancy: it may get there with time, it's only been what, a year since they bought the company?
15:50	cooldude127	kefka: not too hard i think
15:50	technomancy	WizardofWestmarc: (it was a joke)
15:50	WizardofWestmarc	:P
15:50	WizardofWestmarc	I didn't think they'd tightened integration yet
15:50	WizardofWestmarc	hence still needing JDBC
15:50	cooldude127	nothing like a good joke to reveal how much none of us know what we're talking about :)
15:51	ayrnieu	kefka: http://www.jdbc-tutorial.com/
15:51	WizardofWestmarc	�_�
15:51	hiredman	kefka: there is also clojureql
15:51	hiredman	which I think is maybe sort of like clsql
15:51	cooldude127	hiredman: hopefully with less suck
15:52	hiredman	I guess
15:52	WizardofWestmarc	well it's actively being worked on
15:52	hiredman	I haven't really used either
15:52	WizardofWestmarc	so that's an automatic plus ;)
15:52	technomancy	there's nothing quite like being able to bother the author on IRC if something goes wrong
15:53	hiredman	last I checked clojureql did not work well with postgres
15:53	cooldude127	technomancy: that's what i love about emacs-starter-kit ;)
15:54	cooldude127	i just go on irc and bug you when something's wrong
15:56	technomancy	heh
15:57	cooldude127	hmm, great health class is over and i actually accomplished something. thank you for that, i wouldn't have done shit otherwise
16:08	gnuvince	,(let [x (short 0)] ({0 "zero"} x))
16:08	clojurebot	nil
16:08	gnuvince	,(let [x (short 0)] ({0 "zero"} (int x)))
16:08	clojurebot	"zero"
16:09	rhickey	gnuvince: why are you using shorts?
16:09	gnuvince	rhickey: getting them from a buffer.
16:09	gnuvince	(.getShort byte-buf)
16:10	rhickey	gnuvince: use a sorted map if you want fuzzy compares
16:11	rhickey	,(let [x (short 0)] ((sorted-map 0 "zero") (int x)))
16:11	clojurebot	"zero"
16:12	ayrnieu	,((shorted-map 0 "zero") 0M)
16:12	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: shorted-map in this context
16:13	ayrnieu	,((sorted-map 0 "zero") 0M)
16:13	clojurebot	"zero"
16:14	gnuvince	,[(/ (Math/log 10000) (Math/log 32)) (/ (Math/log 10000) (Math/log 2))]
16:14	clojurebot	[2.65754247590989 13.28771237954945]
16:15	cooldude127	eww
16:15	cooldude127	what is that?
16:16	gnuvince	cooldude127: can't specify the base with Math/log
16:16	rhickey	gnuvince: it can't be otherwise and retain compatibility with java.util.Map, which is quite important to some people, so either normalize your keys or use sorted-maps
16:16	gnuvince	rhickey: I'll normalize.
16:17	gnuvince	It's not a chore, it's just a pitfall I keep falling into.
16:17	cooldude127	gnuvince: oh, change of base, got it
16:17	rhickey	gnuvince: Clojure once had its own numbers and Java interop was much more painful and pitfall-ful
16:18	gnuvince	I can imagine.
16:19	cooldude127	making clojure.lang.Ratio work with other numbers is weird enough. it doesn't fall into the hierarchy
16:19	cooldude127	gnuvince: what was the problem you were running into?
16:20	gnuvince	I have some litteral maps with integers as keys, and when I use shorts (that I get from reading a ByteBuffer) and try to fetch a value, I got nil because I forgot to convert to int.
16:20	gnuvince	This illustrated the problem:
16:20	gnuvince	,(let [x (short 0)] ({0 "zero"} x))
16:20	clojurebot	nil
16:21	cooldude127	oh, i see
16:24	clojurebot	svn rev 1246; [lazy] got rid of lazy-cons
16:25	rhickey	ok, lazy branch safe for the intrepid
16:25	Chouser	wow
16:25	cooldude127	woahh! where did lazy-cons go?
16:25	rhickey	i.e. those willing to try living without lazy-cons
16:25	durka42	i guess i missed a huge discussion about what replaces it
16:25	Chouser	out moded, out dated, downsized, replaced.
16:26	cooldude127	what's done instead?
16:26	ayrnieu	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
16:26	rhickey	the important thing to note, at least until I get to doc, is that sequence fns return logical sequences, not (necessarily) ISeqs
16:26	Chouser	specifically: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2009-02-02.html#09:47
16:26	rhickey	use lazy-seq, cons and more in lazy fns, all of core has been changed over and should serve as an example
16:27	Chouser	so no nil-punning on anything except 'rest'?
16:27	rhickey	Chouser: and seq!
16:28	Chouser	ah. right.
16:28	rhickey	http://code.google.com/p/clojure/source/browse/branches/lazy/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#409
16:28	gnuvince	What's nil punning again?
16:28	Chouser	but not concat, filter, map, etc?
16:28	rhickey	http://code.google.com/p/clojure/source/browse/branches/lazy/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#1408
16:28	rhickey	Chouser: right
16:29	rhickey	amazingly, after I got lazy-seq in, I didn't have to change any consumer code of the lazy-sequence fns, only the fns themselves, so I expect the vast majority of code is using seq or rest, which work as always
16:29	hiredman	hmmm
16:29	rhickey	http://code.google.com/p/clojure/source/browse/branches/lazy/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#1441
16:30	rhickey	http://code.google.com/p/clojure/source/browse/branches/lazy/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#1459
16:30	rhickey	etc, search for lazy-seq
16:31	rhickey	everything should be truly lazy now, if not it's a bug
16:31	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: If I start producing code that works with that branch, what are the odds that I ahve to throw it all away in a month or two ?
16:31	Chouser	is (apply concat coll) still greedy on the first couple elements of coll?
16:32	rhickey	user=> (def x (apply concat [(map #(doto % prn) (range 10)) (map #(doto % prn) (range 10))]))
16:32	rhickey	#'user/x
16:32	rhickey	user=> (first x)
16:32	rhickey	0
16:32	rhickey	0
16:33	rhickey	fully lazy everywhere, or it's a bug
16:33	Chouser	:-) sweet
16:34	rhickey	Please try it out and let me know - I'll try to write up a little doc + treatise later tonight
16:34	rhickey	gotta run
16:41	hiredman	xD
16:42	hiredman	I take that back
16:42	hiredman	:(
16:42	hiredman	for a second I thought a Runnable was also a TimerTask
17:03	hiredman	what is better: mutiple atoms holding state, or one atom holding a map of state?
17:04	Cark	i adopted this rule : if you start using atoms/refs all over the place, the you can as well program in java
17:04	Cark	then*
17:05	hiredman	:P
17:05	hiredman	as it happens I am proxying a java class
17:05	hiredman	the javadoc has all kinds of reference to state, most of which I will ignore
17:05	Cark	ah the beast is lurking below, trying to take you in the mutation depths
17:06	ayrnieu	I have refs all over the place for debugging agents.
17:06	hiredman	I think it will end up with two pieces of state
17:06	Cark	yep when using agents i too have refs showing up
17:07	hiredman	one for cancel() so if the TimerTask is canceled it will no longer run, and one for scheduledExecutionTime
17:07	hiredman	to keep track of the last execution time
17:08	Cark	why not a single ref with both values ?
17:08	hiredman	atom
17:09	Cark	ah right
17:09	te	i cant get clojure mode to do syntax hilighting
17:09	te	where have i failed as a father
17:09	hiredman	Cark: that is what I am doing right now
17:09	hiredman	(atom {})
17:09	te	i have: (add-to-list 'load-path "~/.clojure/clojure-mode") (require 'cojure-mode)
17:09	te	do i need more?
17:09	hiredman	the time at which the most recent execution of this task was scheduled to occur, in the format returned by Date.getTime(). The return value is undefined if the task has yet to commence its first execution.
17:09	durka42	te: you chose emacs over vim :p
17:10	te	eventually yes
17:10	te	i havent played with emacs much since we last talked
17:10	hiredman	brilliant spec there
17:10	te	but i have some time to kill today
17:10	ayrnieu	te - (global-font-lock-mode 1), something like.
17:10	te	oh that will turn on hilighting and shite?
17:10	te	ill try it
17:11	ayrnieu	Also look at http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki?ColorTheme
17:11	Cark	hiredman : heh, last time i had a ref being a map with one field being the agent, when this field was nil the agent was supposed to stop
17:12	Cark	pretty much the same thing
17:18	hiredman	ok
17:29	nsinghal	I have classpath with "classes" and "src" directory of a java project in that order. When i do (require :reload-all 'org.cc.file) - it is not reevaluating the file. Does clojure not look for the changed clj file if it finds the file__init.class?
17:31	hiredman	hmmm
17:31	hiredman	I am pretty sure I read somewhere that it picks whichever is newest, .class or .clj
17:52	hiredman	hmmm
18:05	technomancy	te: it should be on by default unless you're on a really old version
18:07	ricree	I'm slightly confused by defining classes in clojure. If I wanted to do something like this jambi tutorial where they define a custom QT widget (http://doc.trolltech.com/qtjambi-4.4/html/com/trolltech/qt/qtjambi-tutorial5.html), what would be the best way to go about it in clojure?
18:13	ayrnieu	(proxy [QWidget] [] ...), I'd expect.
18:17	ricree	thanks, ayrnieu.
18:22	djpowell	what happens when you send or send-off to an agent from inside the agent?
18:23	djpowell	does it reuse the same thread?
18:23	ayrnieu	Nothing obviously special. I don't know if it reuses the same thread.
18:24	djpowell	ok. The docs say that they are ordered though
18:24	ayrnieu	they are ordered from the caller's POV.
18:25	hiredman	djpowell: send and send-off are held till either the end of the action, or they are explicitly released
18:26	hiredman	sends happen on a fixed size thread pool
18:26	ayrnieu	that is to say, multiple threads can send to an agent and these sends can be interleaved, but the sends from each thread will still be in their own order.
18:26	hiredman	cores + 1 I think
18:26	ayrnieu	do send-off spawn their own thread?
18:27	hiredman	it is another threadpool, maybe it grows dynamically?
18:27	hiredman	dunno
18:34	ayrnieu	send-off creates a new thread; send uses the thread pool
18:34	hiredman	oh
18:35	hiredman	hmm
18:35	ayrnieu	er, no, I'm confused.
18:35	ayrnieu	final static ExecutorService soloExecutor = Executors.newCachedThreadPool();
18:35	ayrnieu	this is what it uses.
18:36	hiredman	http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/Executors.html#newCachedThreadPool%28%29
18:36	hiredman	ok
18:36	hiredman	clojurebot needs java doc url lookups
18:37	durka42	gorilla has such a function that i bet you could steal
18:37	ayrnieu	so the difference is that send-off may create a new thread, but send will stick to
18:37	ayrnieu	Executors.newFixedThreadPool(2 + Runtime.getRuntime().availableProcessors());
18:37	hiredman	durka42: hmmmm
18:37	hiredman	,(System/getRuntime)
18:37	clojurebot	java.lang.NoSuchFieldException: getRuntime
18:38	durka42	,(Runtime.getRuntime)
18:38	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: Runtime.getRuntime
18:38	hiredman	,(Runtime/getRuntime)
18:38	clojurebot	#<Runtime java.lang.Runtime@14275d4>
18:38	hiredman	,(Runtime/getRuntime/availableProcessors)
18:38	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: Runtime/getRuntime
18:38	ayrnieu	use clojure.contrib.javadoc
18:38	durka42	(.. Runtime getRuntime availableProcessors)
18:38	durka42	,(.. Runtime getRuntime availableProcessors)
18:38	clojurebot	1
18:39	durka42	,(use 'clojure.contrib.javadoc)
18:39	clojurebot	java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError
18:39	durka42	that was not supposed to happen
18:40	hiredman	ayrnieu: seems pretty bare
18:40	durka42	=> (find-javadoc-url "java.lang.String")
18:40	durka42	"http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/lang/String.html"
18:40	ayrnieu	it gets URLs; what else did you want?
18:40	hiredman	I must be looking at an old rev
18:41	hiredman	hmm
18:41	hiredman	none if the 'clojure.contrib.javadoc verions I a can find have find-javadoc-url
18:42	durka42	rev 430
18:42	hiredman	I am looking at trunk on google code
18:43	ayrnieu	are you looking at the master svn repo, or a github copy?
18:43	ayrnieu	OK. I have 432, trunk, and see ./src/clojure/contrib/javadoc.clj:(defn find-javadoc-url
18:43	hiredman	I am look at it in the google code web interface
18:44	hiredman	ah
19:31	ricree	when defining a function from a gen-class call, what is the clojure equivelent of "this"
19:32	Chouser	ricree: if you're using gen-class (not proxy) then each function's first argument will be the value of "this" -- you can name it whatever you want.
19:32	ricree	oh, thanks. Out of curiosity, what is it when using proxy?
19:32	Chousuke	this
19:32	Chousuke	it's just auto-bound
19:33	ricree	ok. thanks
19:50	ayrnieu	QApplication::exec: Must be called from the main thread <- bah.
19:51	Chouser	yes, Qt is a bit touchy to get working the way you'd want in Java and/or Clojure.
19:52	ayrnieu	http://gist.github.com/57210 follows the java, but - at least in OSX - the created window gives me the color wheel.
19:53	durka42	the spinning beach ball of death you mean? :p
19:53	ayrnieu	SBoD, yes.
19:54	durka42	are you trying to .show() a button like it was a window? i don't know Qt at all but that seems wrong
19:54	ayrnieu	that's what http://doc.trolltech.com/qtjambi-4.4/html/com/trolltech/qt/qtjambi-tutorial1.html has
19:55	durka42	hmm, so it does
20:20	thearthur	hello all
20:20	thearthur	im attempting to use clojure with mvn
20:20	talios	'lo
20:20	thearthur	and cant get clojure-contrib into the classpath
20:21	talios	how are you using it with mvn?
20:21	thearthur	mvn seems overly complicated for clojure (hainv to create a stub java class to start clojure and all)
20:21	thearthur	http://pupeno.com/blog/how-to-create-a-clojure-application
20:21	ayrnieu	aha, for the SBoD I just needed -XstartOnFirstThread
20:21	talios	I made a simple mojo plugin for the compiler the other night, will probably add something to run the repl shortly
20:22	ricree	can you create an instance of a class in the file where it is defined with gen-class?
20:22	thearthur	what should the clojure-contrib.jar be named and where should it be
20:23	thearthur	so the loader-thing will find it?
20:23	Chouser	ricree: yes
20:26	cpath	Is this normal? After starting clojure repl, I replaced, added or changed jar or java classes. However it doesn't affect anything until restarting it.
20:27	cpath	I'm looking for :reload-all for java classes.
20:27	thearthur	when do i use a '.' and when do i use a '/' in (use 'bla.bla/foo)
20:28	durka42	thearthur: just make sure clojure-contrib.jar is in the classpath
20:28	durka42	/ is for java class static members
20:28	durka42	and for namespace/function i believe
20:28	ayrnieu	foo.bar.baz is always for packages named 'foo.bar.baz'. These never refer to methods. Separate .foo .bar are methods. foo.bar.baz/quux calls the static method quux under foo.bar.baz
20:29	thearthur	should I put clojure-contrib under the maven root, or assume everyone building this will have it?
20:29	ricree	For some reason, I'm getting "Unable to resolve classname" errors with this code http://pastebin.com/d6d2de890 . Can anyone spot what I'm doing wrong here?
20:30	durka42	which classname
20:30	hiredman	wew
20:30	hiredman	when it rains it pours
20:30	durka42	hmm i thought you were supposed to put gen-class in the ns macro nowasdays
20:30	ayrnieu	thearthur - the .jar is only 111K. I've seen projects on github that just include clojure.jar and such
20:30	durka42	nowadays*
20:31	ayrnieu	ricree, where do you get it?
20:31	cpath	Do I have restart clojure REPL whenever I change java classes, even though they are in classpath?
20:31	hiredman	cpath: I am pretty sure you do
20:32	metaperl	at the REPL, I typed something and got back (quote foo) instead of just foo ... if I type 'foo I get back just foo and that is what I see on my screen, but I must've typed a hidden character
20:32	ayrnieu	(.. QFont$Weight Bold value) <-- huh. I just did (.setFont (doto (QFont. "Times" 18) (.setBold true)))
20:32	ricree	when I call load-file on it in slime. it's coming from the (new BlockClass) at the end
20:32	hiredman	there are seperate java frameworks that do class reloading and stuff
20:32	metaperl	hi ayrnieu, you are into haskell arent you?
20:32	ayrnieu	metaperl - no.
20:32	metaperl	I thought I knew you from somewhere
20:32	talios	anyone here working woth OSGi at all?
20:32	hiredman	ricree: I am pretty sure (gen-class ...) only generates a class if you (compile ...) the namespace
20:33	cpath	hiredman, Thank you.
20:33	ricree	hiredman: is there a good alternative for what I'm trying to do here?
20:34	ricree	I've been trying to follow along with the qt tutorials. in particular (http://doc.trolltech.com/qtjambi-4.4/html/com/trolltech/qt/qtjambi-tutorial5.html )
20:34	hiredman	ricree: make a seperate namespace with gen-class and (compile ...) it
20:35	thearthur	how dose maven choose the class path?
20:35	hiredman	that is the only way to really extend a class
20:35	hiredman	thearthur: I would check to see if maven has it's own irc channel were you can ask maven specific questions
20:35	talios	thearthur: class path is based on your declared dependencies
20:35	Chouser	ricree: you might need the fully qualified name of your new class.
20:36	ricree	should this be done in a separate file from the other code? can I use multiple namespaces in one file.
20:36	thearthur	no #maven,#mvn,#maven2 ... that i could find
20:36	ricree	Chouser: I tried that, didn't seem to work
20:37	durka42	thearthur: they're on irc.codehaus.org
20:38	thearthur	ok, :)
20:39	talios	thearthur: not sure if it
20:39	talios	thearthur: not sure if it'll help, but over on http://www.talios.com/clojure_running_successfully_under_osgi.htm I describe how I'm attempting to use clojure with maven, using the mojo I wrote
20:40	talios	just added a repl mojo, but not tried it yet as waiting on clojure to checkout on this machine to compile it first ;)
20:40	Chouser	ricree: you know that you have to compile that file for the gen-class to work?
20:41	thearthur	talios, :) /me looks at that
20:41	ricree	no, I didn't.
20:41	durka42	what's mojo?
20:42	durka42	~mojo
20:42	clojurebot	excusez-moi
20:42	talios	durka42: a mojo is a maven plugin
20:42	durka42	moldy old java object :)
20:42	durka42	oh ok
20:45	Chouser	ricree: if you're not adding any methods in your new subclass, and you don't need the name of the class to be anything particular, 'proxy' is easier to use.
20:48	thearthur	how will the loader know to look in clojure-contrib.jar for clojure.contrib.duck-streams
20:49	hiredman	thearthur: the jvm looks through all jars for classpaths
20:49	hiredman	clojure.contrib.duck-streams is actually a classpath/directory structure in the jar
20:50	hiredman	clojure/contrib/duck_streams.clj
20:50	o_	I just saw Making Clojure Lazier on clojure.org. very interesting stuff. can someone explain what "nil punning" means there?
20:50	hiredman	,(seq [])
20:50	clojurebot	nil
20:50	thearthur	nil punning is the result of (good? (gen-pun 'joke))
20:51	thearthur	:)
20:51	o_	;-)
20:51	o_	but really
20:51	thearthur	sorry, i dont actually know
20:51	hiredman	I think nil punning is what rhickey calls it when (seq) of an empty thing is nil
20:52	hiredman	so when you see stuff like (if n foo bar)
20:52	hiredman	and n is a seq
20:52	o_	but isn't a seq of an empty thing an empty sequence ()?
20:52	hiredman	,(seq [])
20:52	clojurebot	nil
20:53	hiredman	^- no
20:53	o_	oh
20:54	o_	well, then no nil punning is a good thing, no?
20:54	Chouser	nil punning is when you assume the return value of a fn is nil instead of an empty collection.
20:55	Chouser	yes, it's very convenient
20:55	o_	chouser: but only if you (seq) it, no? otherwise it's still an empty seq.
20:55	ayrnieu	,(nil? (seq []))
20:55	clojurebot	true
20:56	ayrnieu	is clojurebot running the fully-lazy branch?
20:56	o_	ayrnieu: according to the new docs, no.
20:57	hiredman	ayrnieu: nope
20:58	o_	does the new lazy branch means sequences behave more like functions and less like data-structures?
21:03	hiredman	o_: eh? not from what I have seen
21:04	hiredman	(which, granted is not much)
21:04	hiredman	I think it mostly just means more explicit calls to seq
21:04	Chouser	in both trunk and lazy, (seq foo) will return nil for empty foo
21:05	rhickey	lazy notes in progress: http://clojure.org/lazier
21:06	Chouser	in trunk, all functions that return seqs (map, filter, concat, etc.) return nil instead of anything empty, but in lazy branch they may return a non-nil empty thing, such that you have to call 'seq' on them to test if there's something there.
21:09	o_	I'm trying to figure out when I last used or assumed that map/filter/concat return nil when applied to an empty sequence but I can't. anyone got an example of idiomatic use of nil punning?
21:10	o_	this is important. otherwise I won't know whether I should be excited or alarmed following the latest developments. :-)
21:11	ayrnieu	I just installed lazy and saw that what I was just doing still worked. That was pretty calming.
21:14	Chouser	If I understood what rhickey was saying earlier, he wasn't relying on nil punning as much as he thought. Perhaps not at all (except for with 'rest' which will still work)
21:16	ayrnieu	(rest x) == (seq (more x))
21:20	te	So I'm using clojure-mode with swank clojure/slime
21:21	te	basically i open up slime, and then M-x clojure-mode
21:21	te	the syntax turns on, but then when I hit return it doesn't interpret the block i just typed in
21:21	te	it just keeps going to the next line, as if i never hit enter
21:22	cooldude127	te: don't use clojure-mode in slime buffer
21:22	cooldude127	s
21:22	cooldude127	slime as it is is fine, it uses repl-mode
21:22	cooldude127	clojure-mode is for .clj files
21:22	te	it doesnt do any hilighting though
21:23	cooldude127	highlighting isn't really important at the repl
21:23	te	or does it?
21:23	te	yeah i know its not that big of a deal
21:23	te	but it would be nice while im learning
21:23	te	im very visual
21:23	cooldude127	te: it's not supposed to highlight the repl
21:23	te	i understand
21:23	cooldude127	te: you can type all your code into a file, and then eval it
21:23	te	im just making a comment
21:23	cooldude127	C-M-x evaluates a top-level form
21:24	thearthur	what is the best method/framework for turning clojure code into a program that can ship?
21:25	hiredman	what do you mean by ship?
21:25	thearthur	ie: what is better than maven
21:25	thearthur	and by better i mean easier to use
21:25	hiredman	if you mean "make a jar" most people use ant
21:26	hiredman	I cannot say I am fond of maven or ant
21:26	thearthur	maven is hard to get right this classpath issue on clojure-contrib has stopped me
21:26	hiredman	make works fine
21:26	talios	I found maven quite easy to work with
21:26	ayrnieu	does a gen-class tutorial exist?
21:27	hiredman	clojurebot: compile?
21:27	clojurebot	Excuse me?
21:27	hiredman	ayrnieu: there is http://clojure.org/compilation
21:27	talios	thearthur: you just need to declare clojuire-contrib as a dependency in your pom.xml - if its not in a repository (local or otherwise), you could use a system dependency and specify the path
21:27	ayrnieu	yeah, I've seen that.
21:28	hiredman	there are that, and the doc string for gen-class
21:28	ayrnieu	... huh. Nevermind.
21:30	thearthur	thanks talios
21:30	thearthur	i will try to figure out how to do that
21:30	thearthur	mvn is not intended it seems for the java newb
21:31	cooldude127	thearthur: go with ant if you're a beginner
21:31	talios	I wouldn't say that - I'd just say it sounds like you've not yet learnt how dependencies work.
21:33	thearthur	they are quite mysterious actually
21:33	thearthur	talios, if i understood how the classpath was constructed things i think would get better
21:34	lisppaste8	ayrnieu pasted "lazy fail" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74760
21:34	ayrnieu	with trunk, that compiles
21:36	ayrnieu	OK, lazy rev 1247 compiles it.
21:42	ricree	honestly. compiling is kind of confusing
21:43	Chouser	it is a bit, and it certainly has more moving parts
21:43	Chouser	I avoid it whenever possible
21:43	ricree	the most frustrating part is how easy the documentation makes it look
21:44	hiredman	you almost never need to (compile ...) stuff
21:44	hiredman	clojurebot: I am using gen-class
21:44	clojurebot	No entiendo
21:44	hiredman	bah
21:44	ayrnieu	now I have two problems?
21:44	hiredman	is that it?
21:44	hiredman	:P
21:45	ricree	so with defining a new widget in that QT example I was working with earlier. is there some way I should be doing this that avoids gen-class/compile?
21:46	Chouser	ricree: if you're not adding any methods in your new subclass, and you don't need the name of the class to be anything particular, 'proxy' is easier to use.
21:46	ricree	and that doesn't require compiling?
21:47	Chouser	correct
21:47	ayrnieu	(def widget (doto (proxy [QWidget] []) (.setFixedSize 200 120) ...))
21:50	ricree	by the way. thanks a ton for all the help, everyone. I know I've been making a pest of myself in this channel today, and I appreciate all the help I've gotten
21:54	Chouser	on behalf of all the other people who actually answered your questions, you're quite welcome. :-)
21:55	lisppaste8	ayrnieu pasted "qt4 - this seems about right" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74761
21:56	gnuvince_	Is it just me or is the hardest part of "Clojure" when you are dealing with a mutable Java object and you wonder how the hell you're going to use it cleanly?
21:57	ayrnieu	I for one praise Java's ByteBuffers.
22:00	duck1123	evening folks
22:00	duck1123	I bought Programming Clojure tonight. I'm happy.
22:02	cooldude127	gnuvince_: um, i would say the hardest part is doing things you're used to doing with mutable data when that isn't possible
22:02	ricree	I've been thinking about getting it, if for no other reason than as a sign of appreciation for the posts he did translating examples from PCL to clojure
22:02	ricree	it's been a tremendous help getting started with clojure
22:03	hiredman	the hardest part is when you find a java interface that is almost exactly the same as Runnable, but clojure functions don't implement it
22:03	cooldude127	lol
22:04	hiredman	I really should write a mk-interface macro to avoid writing proxy all the time
22:04	walters	hiredman: i wonder if invokedynamic could make the performance cost of auto-implementing single-method interfaces acceptable
22:05	walters	seems like it could; you'd only pay to do the reflection once
22:05	danlarkin	hiredman: gen-interface?
22:06	hiredman	danlarkin: nah
22:07	hiredman	just a macro that generates the proxy form for me
22:09	gnuvince_	ayrnieu: they're actually what I'm dealing with now.
22:15	yangsx	,(reduce (fn [result entry] (if (even? (count entry)) (conj result entry) (conj (butlast result) (concat (last result) entry)))) [] [[1 2] [3 4] [6 7]])
22:15	clojurebot	[[1 2] [3 4] [6 7]]
22:16	yangsx	,(reduce (fn [result entry] (if (even? (count entry)) (conj result entry) (conj (butlast result) (concat (last result) entry)))) [] [[1 2] [3 4 5] [6 7]])
22:16	clojurebot	([6 7] (1 2 3 4 5))
22:16	yangsx	Can anyone help me understand the difference between the above two?
22:18	yangsx	The second result is unexpected to me.
22:20	yangsx	Is it a bug with reduce or butlast, or am I doing something wrong?
22:20	Chouser	I'll look at it
22:20	ayrnieu	,(concat [1 2] [3 4])
22:20	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
22:21	ayrnieu	,(vec (concat [1 2] [3 4]))
22:21	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
22:23	Chouser	oh, were you expecting butlast to return a vector?
22:25	yangsx	Chouser: yes, but I may be wrong?
22:25	Chouser	,(butlast [1 2 3])
22:25	clojurebot	(1 2)
22:26	Chouser	butlast returns a seq
22:28	Chouser	you can pour it back into a vector using 'vec', as perhaps ayrnieu was demonstrating
22:31	yangsx	Thanks, it seems I have to pay for the seq interface :) and that's not the first time I forgot it.
22:31	ricree	proxy returns a new instance, right?
22:31	Chouser	ricree: yes
22:31	Chouser	yangsx: you may be interested in subvec
22:32	lisppaste8	ayrnieu pasted "qt5 - but the style bothers me." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74762
22:33	ayrnieu	so (blocks) returns a new QWidget each time, but they bear no relation to each other as the Java example has it.
22:33	Chouser	yangsx: or if you're going to do a lot of pushing things onto one end of the collection and pulling them off the other, you might like clojure.lang.PersistentQueue
22:34	ayrnieu	hm. /me &
22:37	yangsx	Thanks, I'll try that if my program is too slow.
22:37	ricree	hehe. nice to know I'm not the only one working through those examples
22:39	hiredman	this mk-interface is proving more difficult then I had hoped
23:06	ricree	is there a way to have a function call in a macro expand without a namespace?
23:06	gnuvince_	Don't use `?
23:07	dnolen_	ricree: what are you trying to do?
23:08	cooldude127	ricree: use ~'blah
23:08	hiredman	lisppaste8: url?
23:08	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
23:09	cooldude127	ricree: actually, that might not work in your case
23:09	lisppaste8	hiredman pasted "mk-interface" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74764
23:10	hiredman	it can end up being just as verbose as proxy
23:11	ricree	I'm trying to write a macro that lets you use an anonymous function as the callback for a qt connect call. I'm doing it by using proxy on the base object class and then calling a function from proxy's return value
23:11	lisppaste8	ricree pasted "connect macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74765
23:11	hiredman	but if it is a single method interface...
23:11	hiredman	still some issues
23:12	ayrnieu	,(doc connect)
23:12	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: connect in this context
23:14	ricree	clojurebot seems to be having trouble tonight. I don't think I've seen even half of the calls to it succeed
23:14	hiredman	clojurebot: give more is <reply>please don't just say it doesn't work, exceptions are not just noise, so please pastbin code+the exception it generates
23:14	clojurebot	Alles klar
23:14	hiredman	~give me more
23:14	clojurebot	Pardon?
23:14	hiredman	clojurebot: bite me
23:14	clojurebot	Huh?
23:14	hiredman	~give more
23:14	clojurebot	please don't just say it doesn't work, exceptions are not just noise, so please pastbin code+the exception it generates
23:15	ayrnieu	ricree, it isn't having problems.
23:18	hiredman	,(loop [] (recur))
23:18	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
23:18	hiredman	xD
23:28	eyeris_	I am writing fact tests for clojureql. clojureql uses a keyword ::AnyDB. I want to pass that to a function from my test module. If I use ::AnyDB it resolves it to my namespace, as I'd expect. I've require'd the clojureql namespace as sql. When I try sql/:AnyDB I get the error: No such var sql/:AnyDB. How can I use :AnyDB from outside the clojureql module?
23:29	hiredman	eyeris_: :sql/AnyDB
23:29	hiredman	,::AnyDB
23:29	clojurebot	:clojure.core/AnyDB
23:29	eyeris_	Ahh!
23:29	eyeris_	That makes sense, sort of :)
23:30	hiredman	weird that that ends up in clojure.core
23:30	ayrnieu	,ns
23:30	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
23:30	hiredman	hmmm
23:33	eyeris_	The multi-method still dispatches on :dk.bestinclass.clojureql/AnyDB though
23:33	eyeris_	What is strange is that it doesn't respect the alias of :sql/AnyDB
23:34	hiredman	sql is just an alias
23:35	eyeris_	Right, I know.
23:35	hiredman	,(doc alias)
23:35	clojurebot	"([alias namespace-sym]); Add an alias in the current namespace to another namespace. Arguments are two symbols: the alias to be used, and the symbolic name of the target namespace. Use :as in the ns macro in preference to calling this directly."
23:36	eyeris_	What I'm saying is that, since clojure knows sql is an alias for dk.bestinclass.clojureql, it should be able to resolve :sql/AnyDB as :dk.bestinclass.clojureql/AnyDB before passing it to the multi-method.
23:36	hiredman	uh
23:43	blbrown	my lisp is a little rusty. If I want to apply a function to all members of a sequence. I am assuming I use 'apply'. e.g. (apply println ["a" "b"]) ?
23:44	hiredman	depends
23:44	blbrown	forexample, using 'println' as an example
23:44	hiredman	(apply println ["a" "b"]) is the same as (println "a" "b") if that is what you want
23:46	blbrown	OK, bad example
23:46	hiredman	not really
23:46	hiredman	(apply + [1 2 3 4]) is the same as (+ 1 2 3 4)
23:46	hiredman	you may want map
23:47	hiredman	(map println ["a" "b"]) is like (println "a") (println "b")
23:47	hiredman	except map is lazy
23:47	hiredman	so you need to wrap it in doall or dorun
23:48	hiredman	(if you are running it for side effects)
23:48	hiredman	there is also doseq
23:48	cooldude127	hiredman: or in the case of println, probably dorun
23:48	cooldude127	oh nvm
23:48	cooldude127	you said that already
23:48	cooldude127	lol
23:48	hiredman	which I rarely use, but is like a foreach loop
23:48	hiredman	:P
23:49	hiredman	,(doseq [i (range 10)] (print i))
23:49	clojurebot	0123456789
23:50	hiredman	,(dotimes [i 10] (print i))
23:50	clojurebot	0123456789
23:52	blbrown	,(doseq [i ["a" "b"]] (print i))
23:52	clojurebot	ab