#clojure – 2008-12-05

2008-12-05

00:15	hiredman	clojurebot: latest is 1144
00:15	clojurebot	Alles klar
00:16	clojurebot	svn rev 1145; made RT.DEFAULT_COMPARATOR use Util.compare
01:05	bradbev	I'm having trouble using compile because of classpath reasons. I have /foo/ in my classpath, and my file is /foo/bar/main.clj (compile 'bar.main) gives "No such file or directory (main.clj):1) I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong :(
01:08	hiredman	do you have ./classes in your classpath?
01:08	hiredman	well
01:08	hiredman	it needs to be ./classes/
01:09	hiredman	I think the last slash in important
01:11	bradbev	hmm, I've just found that
01:11	bradbev	and, no
01:11	bradbev	so I guess I should fix that....
01:13	bradbev	ah, thanks - that was it
01:13	hiredman	np
01:43	bradbev	maybe I'm doing this wrong. What is the best way to compile AOT my clojure files? using (compile ...) or the standalone compiler?
06:38	blackdog	wherre can i find the syntax hilighter used on clojure.org?
07:53	rhickey	I'm considering - auto mem-fning - given Classname.methodname in value position, create (possibly arity-overloaded) fn
08:23	gnuvince	hello
08:26	rhickey	gnuvince: hey
08:27	tomhickey	blackdog: clojure.org is using Dan Webb's codehighlighter script, http://svn.danwebb.net/external/CodeHighlighter/
08:27	blackdog	ah thanks
08:27	gnuvince	rhickey: how's it going?
08:28	rhickey	well
08:28	blackdog	tomhickey, do you have a clojure style?
08:28	blackdog	for addStyle()
08:28	blackdog	no worries i'll find it one the site
08:29	tomhickey	blackdog: http://clojure.org/file/view/clojure.js
08:29	blackdog	ok, thanks!
08:29	tomhickey	it's not the best regex, but it works
08:30	blackdog	np
08:30	gnuvince	tomhickey: hopefully you had a script to generate that function regex ;)
08:31	tomhickey	gnuvince: with help from rich, yes ;)
08:47	Chouser	rhickey: cool! Constructors too? (map Integer. (.split "1 2 3"))
08:48	rhickey	Chouser: why not? (while we're talking vaporware ::)
08:48	Chouser	:-)
08:49	rhickey	Only considering this because if not overloaded on type for same arity, I can make non-reflective
08:50	rhickey	so you'll want to map Integer/parseInt
08:51	rhickey	hmm... longer than #(Integer. %)
08:51	Chouser	You can tell at compile time that map will be passing in one arg?
08:52	rhickey	No, I'll make an arity-overloaded fn for all arities for method
08:52	Chouser	yeah, I noticed that. But 80% less line noise.
08:52	Chouser	oh, sure.
08:52	rhickey	so, efficient, _and_ apply will work
09:10	AWizzArd	rhickey: what would the other solutions look like? One is efficient but doesn't work with apply?
09:11	rhickey	AWizzArd: ?
09:13	AWizzArd	you said it is efficient plus that apply will work
09:13	rhickey	AWizzArd: what more could you want?
09:13	AWizzArd	It sounded as if there was a solution where at least one of those two characteristics wouldn't be true.
09:13	AWizzArd	I like it :-)
09:13	rhickey	you can't apply methods now
09:14	AWizzArd	I am just curious what the alternative would be
09:14	AWizzArd	oh I see
09:14	rhickey	memfn is reflective
09:14	rhickey	as is jcall etc
09:59	AWizzArd	(def x {1 2 3 4}) <-- how can I flatten this into (1 2 3 4)?
09:59	Chouser	(apply concat x)
09:59	AWizzArd	sure, thx
09:59	Chouser	but the pairs might come out in a different order
10:00	AWizzArd	right
10:00	AWizzArd	although a key/value pair will always be together
10:00	Chouser	yes
10:06	AWizzArd	Is JavaFX interesting? Today I read the first time about it.
10:08	tomhickey	is there anything like merge that will also merge values if they are maps? e.g. i want (merge {:a {:x 1 :y 2}} {:a {:x 3 :b 2}}) to give me back {:a {:x 3 :y 2 :b 4}}
10:08	rhickey	Chouser: any better name for scanl for Clojure? just scan?
10:09	blackdog	it looks interesting but I'm a bit worried about the need to use a proprietary tool to create cross platform content, completely stupid - anyhoo, i think by using scenario.jar from clojure could get most of the same
10:09	RSchulz	tomhickey: It sounds like you want a multimap
10:09	rhickey	user=> (merge-with merge {:a {:x 1 :y 2}} {:a {:x 3 :b 2}})
10:09	rhickey	{:a {:x 3, :y 2, :b 2}}
10:09	RSchulz	It seems like multimap and multiset would be good things to have in Contrib.
10:10	AWizzArd	What is scanl doing?
10:10	Chouser	(scanl + 10 [1 2 3 4]) ==> (10 11 13 16 20)
10:10	gnuvince	Did you guys catch the nice quote from Raganwald in his Ruby.rewrite(Ruby) pr�sentation?
10:10	rhickey	RSchulz: I don't know that multimaps/sets are really different data structures, just functions that treat maps and sets a certain way
10:10	gnuvince	"Whatever feature your IDE gives you is a design flaw in your programming language"
10:11	tomhickey	rhickey: thanks
10:11	Chouser	Haskell's scanr doesn't seem very clojury, but just 'scan' reminds me of reading from stdin in C
10:11	RSchulz	Well, multisets have to count their members, so they could be implemented with maps, of course, and multimaps can be maps whose values are sets.
10:11	AWizzArd	I think scanl is not too bad.
10:12	rhickey	scanl = ick
10:12	AWizzArd	l stands for left?
10:12	Chouser	scanl is like reduce that emits a new item for each iteration
10:12	RSchulz	What is the "scanl" you're talking about. I don't see it anywhere.
10:12	stuarthalloway	why is the ordering in sets sometimes inconsistent when the sets contain identical data?
10:13	rhickey	RSchulz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/68046#3
10:13	stuarthalloway	I know you can't count on the ordering, but it surprises me that it changes from one run to the next with identical data
10:13	gnuvince	RSchulz: from Haskell
10:13	Chouser	'scan-reduce'?
10:13	AWizzArd	left-scan, scan-left, scan-reduce
10:13	RSchulz	What's the concept?
10:14	AWizzArd	RSchulz: (04:10:28 PM) Chouser: scanl is like reduce that emits a new item for each iteration
10:14	rhickey	reduce-seq?
10:14	RSchulz	How is it not map, then?
10:14	AWizzArd	RSchulz: how does the map for (04:08:17 PM) Chouser: (scanl + 10 [1 2 3 4]) ==> (10 11 13 16 20) look like?
10:14	Chouser	RSchulz: did you see my example run above? try writing it with just 'map'
10:14	rhickey	RSchulz: there's a propagation from one call to the next
10:15	RSchulz	I see.
10:15	rhickey	reduce-keep
10:15	RSchulz	The name is kind of arbitrary.
10:15	Chouser	I was actually using the name 'propagate' before rhickey reminded me we'd been over this before.
10:15	RSchulz	Yes, reduce-keep is at least somewhat descriptive. Scan certainly isn't.
10:15	rhickey	reduces
10:16	Chouser	ooh
10:16	Chouser	if that's not too subtle, I like it.
10:17	rhickey	reduces == as defined by my lazy scanl?
10:18	Chouser	sure, how else would it be defined?
10:18	AWizzArd	something with a ,,-" inside sounds lispy, but is long. So reduces looks nicer to me
10:18	rhickey	just asking, you had a strict one and had been playing with it
10:19	Chouser	oh, eager? no. lazy is good.
10:19	RSchulz	Maybe "reducing"?
10:20	AWizzArd	reducify :-)
10:21	AWizzArd	step-reduce
10:22	rhickey	reduce [f init coll] - "Returns a lazy seq of the intermediate values of the reduction (as
10:22	rhickey	per reduce) of coll by f, starting with init"
10:22	rhickey	er, reduces
10:23	rhickey	reduction?
10:24	AWizzArd	that sounds too much like reduce
10:24	AWizzArd	condense
10:25	gnuvince	What are we naming?
10:25	gnuvince	scanl?
10:25	AWizzArd	yes
10:25	Chouser	Does it make any sense for 'init' to be optional as it is in reduce?
10:26	rhickey	Chouser: yes - you sending patch?
10:26	Chouser	heh. can do.
10:26	gnuvince	continuously?
10:26	gnuvince	Nah, doesn't work...
10:26	rhickey	reduction
10:27	RSchulz	(As Marge Simpson said--funny, I was just thinking about that episode earlier--"Names are hard.")
10:27	gnuvince	Not sure about reduction; you have reduce which returns a single value, so you'd expect reduction to do something similar.
10:27	rhickey	I'm sure
10:28	AWizzArd	slash? taper?
10:28	rhickey	it describes the process of reducing
10:28	RSchulz	Crush?
10:28	Chousuke	accumulate? :/
10:28	RSchulz	Too side-effecty.
10:28	RSchulz	Actually, though, accumulate doesn't sound bad.
10:29	gnuvince	It's not bad, but again, I feel that htis conveys that you'll get a final, atomic value.
10:29	AWizzArd	gnuvince: it sounds very much like reduce, yes
10:30	rhickey	user=> (reduce + 0 [1 2 3 4])
10:30	rhickey	10
10:30	rhickey	user=> (reduction + 0 [1 2 3 4])
10:30	rhickey	(0 1 3 6 10)
10:31	RSchulz	"Peephole?"
10:31	RSchulz	Too risque?
10:31	AWizzArd	I personally think that reduce sounds more like producing (0 1 3 6 10) and reduction will return the final reduction of this expression.
10:32	AWizzArd	reduction gives you the reduction, while reduce as a verb sounds more active imo
10:32	gnuvince	I guess we can talk about this all day, but the BDFL has decided on reduction ;)
10:32	RSchulz	Is this function, whatever it ends up being called, going into Contrib? Core?
10:33	rhickey	AWizzArd: It's not a subjective thing - reduction: the action of making something smaller, reduce: to make something smaller
10:34	AWizzArd	What about minify? ;-)
10:34	Chousuke	maybe call it "reductions" as it produces the reduction of every subsequence.
10:34	AWizzArd	also nice
10:35	AWizzArd	bestest name so far
10:36	RSchulz	But nothing is being made smaller here, is it?
10:37	AWizzArd	"reductions" even has the flair of lazyness
10:37	RSchulz	There is no aspect of decreasing (-ness) about it, right?
10:37	rhickey	RSchulz: reduce does, reduction is the enumerated process of reduce
10:37	RSchulz	Yes, reduce does, but this new thing we don't want to call scanl does not.
10:38	RSchulz	Also, does it generalize in any way to larger scopes over which the individually applied actions operate within the target sequence?
10:38	RSchulz	Or is it strictly pair-wise?
10:38	rhickey	it is the intermediate results of reduce
10:39	rhickey	i.e. the reduciton
10:39	rhickey	reeduction
10:39	rhickey	reduction
10:39	AWizzArd	g
10:39	RSchulz	Nah. Spelling's only important to computers. And publishers.
10:39	AWizzArd	Btw, it is very cheap to rseq a vector yes? So reducing from the right side is no problem.
10:40	rhickey	AWizzArd: for anything reversible, including vector
10:43	RSchulz	I wonder if mapcat offers a naming precedence that should be respected?
10:43	RSchulz	_precedent_, that is.
11:17	drewolson	i'm having some AOT compilation issues. I'm trying to run a file consisting of unit tests. It's definitely in my path the java can't find it
11:18	drewolson	are namespaces with "-" an issue in AOT?
11:18	Chouser	drewolson: shouldn't be, but they are converted to "_" in class, file, and directory names.
11:18	drewolson	Chouser: yep, and i see the outputed classes are named exactly like that
11:19	drewolson	however, when i run java, it doesn't want to find my class files
11:19	drewolson	the command is basically:
11:19	drewolson	java -cp clojure.jar:clojure-contrib.jar:classes:test/classes org.drewolson.test-foo
11:20	drewolson	and the comipled test classes is sitting in test/classes/org/drewolson/foo
11:20	drewolson	s/comipled/compiled/
11:20	Chouser	try: org.drewolson.test_foo
11:20	drewolson	k
11:20	Chouser	java's expecting a class name there, which can't have "-"
11:20	drewolson	that did the trick, thanks :)
11:21	Chouser	np
11:23	drewolson	hrm, still not convinced i'm actually running the file
11:24	drewolson	no errors now, but i don't see any test output
11:24	drewolson	i should be able to include :gen-class in my ns macro and then call (run-tests) from -main, correct?
11:28	drewolson	i take that back, it's working fine
11:28	drewolson	ant just doesn't print output :)
11:40	Chouser	clojurebot: atom discussion is http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/fd0371eb7238e933
11:40	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
11:40	Chouser	clojurebot: brain dump?
11:40	clojurebot	brain dump is http://clj.thelastcitadel.com/clojurebot
11:42	Chouser	rhickey: you saw cgrand's timing tests of vector vs. closure creation?
11:44	drewolson	ok, i'm going crazy: http://gist.github.com/32396
11:44	drewolson	that runs fine, but outputs nothing
11:44	drewolson	the tests aren't running and i have no idea why
11:49	Chouser	drewolson: no output, or "Ran 0 tests"?
11:49	drewolson	Chouser: no output at all
11:50	Chouser	pre-compiled only, or also when run from .clj sources?
11:50	drewolson	how would i run this from the .clj sources?
11:50	drewolson	would main run?
11:51	drewolson	right now i'm running the compiled code
11:51	Chouser	you could start a clojure repl, then: (require 'org.drewolson.test-dragon) (org.drewolson.test-dragon/-main)
11:52	drewolson	let me give that a shot
11:53	Chouser	I think I'm reproducing your error, and I think it has to do with test-out
11:53	drewolson	hrm, i see
11:53	drewolson	Chouser: yes, tests do run from the repl
11:55	drewolson	Chouser: i take that back...i see output, but it says "0 tests run"
11:55	drewolson	somehow, running (run-tests) from main is not seeing the deftest declarations
11:57	Chouser	drewolson: yes, it looks like you have to say: (run-tests 'org.drewolson.test-dragon)
11:57	drewolson	ah, i see
11:58	drewolson	Chouser: ok, tests now run from the Repl, but still nothing running the compiled class from the command line
11:59	drewolson	Chouser: or, at least, i can't see the output, i'll look into test-out
12:00	Chouser	If i write directly to out and test-out from inside the compiled -main, I see neither.
12:00	Chouser	but prn works
12:00	drewolson	hrm, very strange
12:01	drewolson	i'm trying to get a feel for how i would unit tests apps in clojure, not sure how else to do it
12:02	Chouser	ah, manual flush is required
12:02	drewolson	Chouser: not sure I understand, can you pastie?
12:02	Chouser	http://gist.github.com/32403
12:02	drewolson	awesome, thanks
12:02	drewolson	god bless gist
12:03	drewolson	although hooks into irc would be nice. notification similiar to the lisp paste site you use
12:03	Chouser	yeah, I've not used it much. seems pretty nice, plus it even colors Clojure nicely.
12:03	Chouser	drewolson: yes, if it had that, I'd definitely prefer gist.
12:03	drewolson	yep.
12:04	drewolson	i'm wondering how i would create a test suite, roll all my tests into a single run
12:04	drewolson	but have them in multiple files
12:04	Chouser	drewolson: I've done nothing with test-is (or any other clojure test framework for that matter), so I'm the wrong one to ask.
12:05	drewolson	gotcha, thanks for the help
12:05	Chouser	if nobody else here chimes in, you could bring it up on the google group.
12:08	drewolson	maybe i'll see if i can actually write some code to solve it
12:09	dudleyf	I'm kind of leaning towards specjure for testing
12:09	dudleyf	but I haven't used it extensively
12:09	duck1123	does anyone know if there is a gist mode for emacs?
12:09	drewolson	duck1123: there is
12:09	drewolson	duck1123: http://github.com/defunkt/gist.el/tree/master
12:10	duck1123	drewolson: thanks. I'll check it out
12:10	drewolson	np
12:10	dudleyf	heh
12:10	dudleyf	The first result for "gist irc bot" is clojurebot
12:12	hiredman	clojurebot: copious is <reply>pffft, I'll give you copious, hiredmn's free time is copious
12:12	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
12:12	hiredman	clojurebot: waht can you tell me about the copious amount of russian spam I recieve?
12:12	clojurebot	pffft, I'll give you copious, hiredmn's free time is copious
12:14	RSchulz	And now it knows a typo forever...
12:16	RSchulz	Yeah, you reach inside its brainbox. Creepy.
12:16	hiredman	actually I just privmsg...
12:17	RSchulz	It's good you have such copious free time.
12:25	hiredman	lisppaste8: url?
12:25	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
12:25	blackdog	i want to start with a map then conj onto it based on a variet of predicates - is there a nice way of doing that? it's almost like a (when) but it returns the original map if the predicate is false
12:26	blackdog	i guess a short macro will do the trick
12:27	lisppaste8	hiredman pasted "chute example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71645
12:30	hiredman	oops
12:30	hiredman	I missed a spot there
12:31	lisppaste8	hiredman annotated #71645 with "missed a spot" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71645#1
13:13	AWizzArd	rhickey: What do you see as core parst that you still wish to see integrated into Clojure before 1.0?
13:54	rhickey	Chouser: I did see that - closure creation is fast, that's ok by me
13:56	Lau_of_DK	Good evening gents
13:56	gnuvince	I'm not an agent, I'm a ref!
13:56	gnuvince	</retarded Clojure-related joke>
13:57	Lau_of_DK	hehe
13:57	Lau_of_DK	gnuvince: I had a horrible experience at work, where I said "Its wonderful to work with streams that are infinate in length.... unless you accidentally print them", and then I almost choked laughing, and when I stopped, I realise nobody else thought it was funny / knew what a stream was :(
13:58	gnuvince	Hahahaha
13:59	technomancy	heh
13:59	gnuvince	Lau_of_DK: without wanting to diss your co-workers, isn't that the root of the problem in the computer software industry: people who don't know?
13:59	gnuvince	I'm not saying I'm better than other programmers, I'm definitely not.
14:00	gnuvince	But you wouldn't see a doctor asking what a CAT scan is...
14:00	Lau_of_DK	gnuvince: I think primarily the problem is actually religious attitude
14:01	Lau_of_DK	+s
14:01	Lau_of_DK	I have spoken with people who would defend PHP to death instead of looking twice at Lisp
14:02	Lau_of_DK	And Im not speaking CEO level or any such thing, but just programmers who have found their comfort zone, and love it
14:02	technomancy	Lau_of_DK: see the first quote on this page: http://technomancy.us/27
14:02	technomancy	Leo Tolstoy agrees!
14:03	gnuvince	Lau_of_DK: yeah, it is a problem too, though one that I can understand.
14:04	Lau_of_DK	technomancy: My goodness, what a wonderful insightful quote
14:05	Lau_of_DK	But I cant get annoyed, in the end it plays out to my advantage
14:05	gnuvince	If it doesn't turn into zeal, I guess it can be useful. "You can't do X in language Y" "Oh yeah?! <hack hack hack>"
14:06	Lau_of_DK	"Zeal is its own excuse"
14:08	hiredman	hmmm
14:08	Chouser	technomancy: great quotes!
14:08	hiredman	clojurebot look up needs to be case insensitive
14:09	technomancy	Chouser: thanks. I like the last one too. =)
14:09	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: Isnt ^i the regex suffix for case-ignorance?
14:09	hiredman	clojurebot: Richard Stallman is <reply>who?
14:09	clojurebot	Titim gan �ir� ort.
14:09	gnuvince	Lau_of_DK: /foo/i
14:09	Lau_of_DK	k
14:09	hiredman	Lau_of_DK: but I am using keys in a hash for lookup
14:09	Lau_of_DK	gnuvince: you cant to that in ASM
14:10	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: so you gotta run it all in lower-case?
14:10	hiredman	I think I will have to do that
14:10	hiredman	but, meh, later
14:10	Lau_of_DK	hhe
14:10	Lau_of_DK	+e
14:15	hiredman	http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/ads/Learn-Lisp-small.png <-- learn lisp, only $75
14:17	duck1123	W.L. Whipple likes it
14:18	duck1123	"Interactively and Write Real Programs with TransLISP for Only $75"
14:18	technomancy	what a deal.
14:19	technomancy	... and people wonder if you can go anywhere as a language using primarily proprietary implementations.
14:19	technomancy	"Sure you can, that's why everyone is using Smalltalk these days."
14:20	Lau_of_DK	I know this question has been asked a million times before, but besides viaWeb, what larger projects have been done in a Lisp ?
14:20	technomancy	Emacs. =)
14:20	technomancy	autocad is another big one
14:20	Lau_of_DK	technomancy: Emacs is written in C
14:20	technomancy	and there's that big airline scheduling system by ITA
14:20	AWizzArd	Emacs is written in Elisp
14:20	technomancy	Lau_of_DK: Emacs Lisp is implemented in C.
14:21	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd: Emacs is written in C, its a Elisp interpreter
14:21	Lau_of_DK	We're repeating each other, but the answer is still, its not written in Lisp
14:21	AWizzArd	some parts of it are written in c, yes
14:21	technomancy	ITA definitely has the biggest Lisp system in production to my knowledge.
14:22	duck1123	most of the cool stuff I use in emacs is written in elisp
14:22	technomancy	unless some other folks are keeping it secret for a competitive advantage.
14:22	AWizzArd	I think ITA employs around 100 Lisp developers.
14:22	Lau_of_DK	uuh, cool
14:24	technomancy	anyway, there's significantly more lisp in Emacs than C, and since lisp is more expressive, the amount of functionality that's actually implemented in C is pretty slim.
14:24	AWizzArd	Yes
14:24	AWizzArd	We can say that Emacs is not purely written in Lisp
14:25	AWizzArd	What about Clojure? Is it written in Java or Clojure?
14:25	AWizzArd	Which part is bigger?
14:25	AWizzArd	Currently it's both, but the Clojure part is growing.
14:25	technomancy	the java part is bigger, but it's much less expressive
14:26	technomancy	plus everyone uses clojure contrib; that's got to count for something.
14:26	AWizzArd	rhickey probably has his reasons why he does not want to rewrite the java parts in Clojure, now as its compiler is bootstrapped.
14:26	kotarak	There are two parts of Cojure: the Java part building the infrastructure and the core library running on the Java part.
14:26	duck1123	do you consider things like dired, erc, proced, etc. to be part of emacs, or applications that run on the emacs platform?
14:27	Chousuke	how much of emacs is non-elisp that doesn't actually involve interpreting elisp :P
14:28	duck1123	Chousuke: quite a bit, but I'm sure 3/4 of it could've been written in elisp
14:29	Chouser	Clojure is written in Clojure and Java. The JVM is written in C (or perhaps C++), right? C++ is written in C++, C, and assembly. Assemblers are written in C and assembly. What was the point of this again?
14:29	duck1123	man, it's amazing the stuff you learn when you actually sit down and read the slime manual
14:29	cemerick	duck1123: just imagine all the stuff you'll need to unlearn eventually ;-)
14:29	Chousuke	it'd be cool if clojure were written purely in clojure, but that brings all kinds of bootstrapping problems.
14:29	duck1123	I was looking for a function that would allow me to build something... it's already there
14:30	Chousuke	you'd still need a clojure implementation done in java to get it running :/
14:30	duck1123	Chousuke: but you only need one
14:30	duck1123	kinda like the head vampire
14:30	AWizzArd	in 2005 there was a study that analyzed in what languages programs for Debian where written in. Funnily Number one was C (57%), then came C++(16,8%), then Shell (9%) and on place 4 it was Lisp with 3% :-)
14:31	Chousuke	heh
14:31	Chousuke	that 3% was emacs.
14:31	hiredman	heh
14:31	hiredman	beat me to it
14:31	AWizzArd	yes, and sbcl + cumcl
14:31	AWizzArd	but mostly emacs
14:31	AWizzArd	http://www.dwheeler.com/sloc/
14:31	Lau_of_DK	guys this is really boring :)
14:32	technomancy	Chousuke: wow; nice.
14:32	hiredman	is anyone writing distrubuted message passing stuff for clojure?
14:32	technomancy	especially when you consider how much less verbose lisp is
14:34	hiredman	I am toying with something I will call "chutes and ladders" using xmpp
14:34	hiredman	http://paste.lisp.org/display/71645
14:34	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: check lisp paste, someone pasted something a couple of days ago
14:34	hiredman	example little session
14:35	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: you are the gui guy, I have a question and maybe you know more about it. Did you hear about this new JavaFX thing?
14:35	AWizzArd	As in http://www.javafx.com/
14:36	AWizzArd	My question is: can one use Clojure to write javafx apps, or is one forced to do it with JavaFX-Script?
14:37	hiredman	holy crap
14:38	hiredman	clojurebot is then less two weeks old according to lisppaste
14:38	Chousuke	AWizzArd: if you can use java to write them, you can use clojure
14:38	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd: Im sorry, Ive not heard about javaFX
14:38	technomancy	hiredman: I remember suggesting you write him right when I joined the channel two Fridays ago. =)
14:38	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: I also heard about it today for the first time. Seems interesting though, a flash/silverlight competitor
14:39	duck1123	I really like JavaFX's javadoc
14:39	AWizzArd	Chousuke: I am not so sure. For example when you want to use the web framework Rife, then this rule is not true.
14:39	Lau_of_DK	But I have made one of the most extensive .emacs known to man, incl. email, msn, irc, flymake, ya-snippet (intellisense), org-mode and much much :) When Im totally done, its back to Qt :)
14:39	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd: I'll check it out
14:39	AWizzArd	Chousuke: one can use .class files or .java files for Rife (as long the .class files where compiled with javac).
14:40	AWizzArd	yeah, please have a look at it, would be nice to know if this would be possible
14:40	Chousuke	so rife has some weird compiler dependencies then? :/
14:40	AWizzArd	I don't know this. I will maybe find out during the weekend.
14:40	AWizzArd	I just know that for Groovy they did some work, and since then Rife also can work with .groovy files.
14:41	Chouser	AWizzArd: so you've given up on Clojure + Rife?
14:42	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd: JavaFX looks wild
14:42	AWizzArd	Chouser: nope, not given up yet. I will write a detailed report (basically the description I showed you) to the Rife mailinglist. The author of Rife would like to reproduce it, to understand better what is going on.
14:49	Lau_of_DK	olgen: Hej Jacob, velkommen til
14:49	olgen	Laust?
14:49	Lau_of_DK	Nej
14:49	gnuvince	math question guys: natural numbers are the integers equal to and larger than 0? N = {x \| x <- Z, x >= 0}?
14:49	Lau_of_DK	S� bare en anden dansker og t�nkte jeg ville hilse p�
14:50	olgen	ah hehe
14:50	olgen	og tak
14:50	Lau_of_DK	gnuvince: I believe that group excludes 0
14:50	Lau_of_DK	olgen: np :)
14:51	hiredman	hold on to your hats
14:51	hiredman	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_number#History_of_natural_numbers_and_the_status_of_zero
14:51	Lau_of_DK	oops, blush
14:52	hiredman	Lau_of_DK: don't worry, I just did a quick edit to make you look wrong before pasting the url
14:52	Lau_of_DK	cool
14:52	Lau_of_DK	:)
14:52	technomancy	hiredman: I always wonder about that when people refer to wikipedia.
14:52	Lau_of_DK	Ive never claimed to be smart, but Ive faked it a few times
14:53	kotarak	gnuvince: I encountered the notation N for natural numbers without 0 and N_0 including 0.
14:54	gnuvince	That 0 is a real nuisance
14:54	gnuvince	We should do away with it
14:54	gnuvince	;)
14:55	kotarak	It was a major achievement to recognise it as "something".
14:55	kotarak	Since it represents actually nothing.
14:55	technomancy	kotarak: you mean like the empty list in CL? =)
14:56	kotarak	Hmm.. maybe more like nil? Don't know. Early notations from babylon showed a missing place as zero. But it was actually that: an empty place.
14:56	technomancy	kotarak: in CL nil is the same thing as the empty list
14:56	kotarak	Later on someone came to the idea, that zero is more than an empty place.
14:59	kotarak	Wow. I really have a talent to kill conversations...
14:59	Lau_of_DK	Yes you've always been good at that :)
15:00	kotarak	maybe I should go over to the lurker faction.
15:16	danlarkin	ok guys I just read the past 2 hours of conversation. technomancy: I love the quotes on that page, hiredman: chutes & ladders looks very neat!, kotarak: no! stay away from the dark side
15:17	Lau_of_DK	phew, danlarkin broke kotarak spell which paralyzed the channel for 20 minutes
15:18	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: Beware of the dark wizard. muhahaha
15:19	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: See? It works. :\|
15:22	lisppaste8	hiredman annotated #71645 with "code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71645#2
15:31	technomancy	is there an expected date for the JVM 7?
15:34	Chouser	blackdog: Sorry I didn't remember this til just now: (conj {:a 1} (when true {:b 2}))
15:37	Chouser	you can have multiple 'when's in a single conj.
15:37	Chouser	that only works on maps, though. your conj-when would also work on vectors, lists, etc.
15:39	lisppaste8	craigmcd pasted "Tracing Library" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71656
15:40	AWizzArd	rhickey: What do you see as core parst that you still wish to see integrated into Clojure before 1.0?
15:45	hiredman	AWizzArd: I think he that most of want he wants at this point is to get the code out so people can try it out at test it
15:45	Lau_of_DK	hehe
15:46	Lau_of_DK	You think "he that most of want he wants" ?
15:46	hiredman	2008:Dec:01:12:10:16 rhickey technomancy: it's really almost done, just want to let people use the latest changes a bit and incorporate any feedback
15:46	hiredman	has
15:46	hiredman	what ever
15:47	gnuvince	Should functions like every? accept more than one collection? So you could say: (let [coll [1 2 3 4]] (every? #(= (inc %1) %2) coll (rest coll)))
15:48	gnuvince	(though that'd be best written as (monotonic? #(= (inc %1) %2) [1 2 3 4])
15:48	AWizzArd	those colls could be concatenated
15:49	AWizzArd	oh, I see what you mean
15:49	gnuvince	?
15:49	Chouser	that's not what he wants, though. he wants it to work like map
15:49	gnuvince	Chouser: exactly
15:49	AWizzArd	well, then probably map+every
15:50	hiredman	that would be ugly
15:51	AWizzArd	I think the suggestion is nice, to have more than one sequence
15:51	AWizzArd	http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm
15:52	Chouser	(every? identity (map = (map inc coll) (rest coll)))
15:54	AWizzArd	Chouser: do you really want two maps here?
15:55	Chouser	I think so. Would you prefer:
15:55	Chouser	(every? identity (map #(= (inc %) %2) coll (rest coll)))
15:55	AWizzArd	I think that could be more efficient
15:56	Chouser	I prefer the former unless I'm sure I need some extra performance.
15:56	AWizzArd	Although the Common Lisp way to do it is allowing any number of colls to every
15:57	AWizzArd	Chouser: in a side effect free language the compiler could eliminate one map for us
15:58	AWizzArd	So you can write it with two maps, but the coll is only traversed once.
15:58	AWizzArd	In principle Clojure could do the same.
15:59	AWizzArd	But people who won't play after the rules of functional programming might run into some nasty bugs this way.
16:12	lisppaste8	gnuvince pasted "Something like that" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71658
16:15	Chouser	interesting. I think I could get used to using that.
16:15	gnuvince	The implementation could probably be improved
16:16	Chouser	yeah, it's probably a bit slower.
16:17	Chouser	I suppose you could do that for everything that takes a predicate and a collection.
16:18	gnuvince	Probably
16:18	gnuvince	I might check it out this weekend.
16:21	AWizzArd	gnuvince: and for example when you have an IF in Lisp that returns true/false then you can easily replace it with (when ...) or (when-not ...)
16:22	AWizzArd	for returning false I mean
16:22	triddell	blackdog: I just reviewed the jetty sample you put together for Lau. Did you write the iph.utils.servlets piece?
16:22	AWizzArd	your (if expr then true) can also be written as: (and expr then)
16:22	AWizzArd	(and tuples (if ...))
16:22	AWizzArd	(and tuples (when .. ))
16:23	gnuvince	AWizzArd: I find using explicit ifs clearer of my intentions than using and or or as control structures
16:23	AWizzArd	Rich explicitly defined that as idiomatic for Clojure
16:23	AWizzArd	I asked him some days ago about it.
16:24	gnuvince	I'll check it out during the weekend
16:24	AWizzArd	It is idiomatic to use when and make use of the implicit return value of nil
16:24	AWizzArd	of false
16:24	gnuvince	I'll use cond :)
16:25	gnuvince	No fighting!
16:25	Chousuke	if you have multiple different functions to use for "searching" an answer then I find 'or a very nice way of expressing that
16:26	Chousuke	especially if you have a default value.
16:26	lisppaste8	Chouser annotated #71658 with "or use a helper" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71658#1
16:28	Chouser	that way the current 'every?', 'any?', etc. can stay nice and fast, but you can easily get your multi-collection behavior just by tacking an 'apply-map' on the front.
16:29	AWizzArd	(every? identity coll) is basically (apply and coll), but as and is a macro...
16:29	Chouser	AWizzArd: yes, I know.
16:31	blackdog	triddell, yes i did
16:32	gnuvince	Going home
16:34	triddell	blackdog: I'm thinking about creating a simple json service layer in clojure for a GWT application using some Jetty servlets and maybe danlarkin's json library. Have you done anything similar? How are you doing database interaction?
16:35	blackdog	triddell, yes, that's exactly what I'm doing - no gwt, but danlarkin;s json lib and the servlet
16:35	blackdog	i'm using clojure.contrib.sql
16:35	blackdog	nothing fancy
16:37	triddell	blackdog: ok cool, thanks... I like the approach you took. looks nice. I also checked out the pure.js stuff which I hadn't seen before... that was interesting.
16:37	blackdog	well ihope to keep it as simple as possible
16:44	lisppaste8	blackdog pasted "servlets" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71662
16:44	blackdog	triddell, that's a newer version
16:45	lisppaste8	blackdog annotated #71662 with "jsonp example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71662#1
16:46	hiredman	clojurebot: servlets?
16:46	clojurebot	Titim gan �ir� ort.
16:46	hiredman	clojurebot: servlets is http://paste.lisp.org/display/71662
16:46	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
16:47	triddell	blackdog: thx. I'll try that one for a spin soon :-)
16:51	AWizzArd	Do you see a more idiomatic way to do (for [x (range 100)] [x (* x x)]) than doing it this way?
16:52	drewr	It doesn't look like I can throw an ad-hoc keyword arg in a binding form, can I?
16:52	Chouser	AWizzArd: looks good to me, for whatever that's worth.
16:52	drewr	Python: def foo(a, b, c=None): return (a, b, c)
16:53	Chouser	drewr: you mean to mix positional and keyword ... no.
16:53	drewr	I can call foo(1, 2, 3) or foo(1, 2), etc.
16:53	drewr	Chouser: OK, just making sure I wasn't missing something.
16:54	AWizzArd	drewr: in clojure you can have a function that takes keyword arguments, but then you must always specifiy all keywords. You could not say foo(1, c=4) but would have to say instead foo(a=1, c=4)
16:54	drewolson	hey all, how can i set compile-path from the command line?
16:55	AWizzArd	I would be interested to know how to set it in swank-clojure :-)
16:56	AWizzArd	currently I always do something like (binding [compile-path "my/path"] ...) in the repl
16:56	kotarak	The new repl-ln is awesome. :)
16:56	kotarak	Got Gorilla working with it. :)
16:56	AWizzArd	grats
16:56	dudleyf	drewolson: java -Dclojure.compile.path=/path ...
16:56	Chouser	you can do (defn foo [a b & kw] (let [{:keys [c]} (apply hash-map kw)] ...))
16:56	drewolson	dudleyf: thanks
16:57	AWizzArd	Chouser: yes, good
16:57	drewr	Chouser: I was thinking about something like that. Thanks.
16:57	AWizzArd	if one regularily makes use of it a macro (def-kwfn foo ...)
16:58	Chouser	I think someone wrote a macro already for it, perhaps with extra features
16:58	AWizzArd	to remove the leak out of this abstraction
17:03	drewr	defnk
17:04	drewr	defn+
17:04	Chouser	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/51bb53ca077154f8
17:04	Chouser	someone == Rich
17:04	drewr	rhickey is a freak with macros.
17:05	Chouser	he notes elsewhere "(note: that macro could probably be done more simply now...)"
17:06	AWizzArd	drewr a macro really makes sense here. I don't find this very freakish in that case.
17:07	AWizzArd	wb vince
17:07	Chouser	clojurebot: keyword arguments is http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/51bb53ca077154f8
17:07	clojurebot	c'est bon!
17:08	drewr	AWizzArd: I mean in general. Have you looked at for?
17:08	Chouser	'for' is indeed nuts. very useful, though!
17:08	AWizzArd	drewr: some weeks ago I read the full boot.clj
17:09	AWizzArd	Does clojure have something like a pipe operator?
17:09	kotarak	->
17:09	AWizzArd	(def x (-> #(+ 3 %) #(* 2 %) inc)) ==> Exception
17:10	kotarak	(-> x (+ 3) (* 2) inc)
17:10	AWizzArd	It's not really what I want
17:11	kotarak	comp?
17:11	AWizzArd	nope, but (def x (apply comp (reverse [#(+ 3 %) #(* 2 %) inc])))
17:11	drewolson	what is syntax for :methods in :gen-class, specifically the param types
17:11	AWizzArd	(pipe #(+ 3 %) #(* 2 %) inc)
17:12	AWizzArd	so that I can read from left to right
17:12	AWizzArd	similar to ->
17:12	kotarak	#(->% (+ 3) (* 2) inc))
17:13	kotarak	You can define your own pipe: (defn pipe [& fs] (apply comp (reverse fs)))
17:13	hiredman	AWizzArd: I wrote one of those too
17:14	AWizzArd	kotarak: your
17:14	AWizzArd	oops
17:14	AWizzArd	kotarak: your #(-> ...) is good
17:14	Chouser	drewolson: there's an exampe at http://clojure.org/compilation
17:14	AWizzArd	now it even looks like real currying :-)
17:14	kotarak	Beware: It always expans to (-> x (f y)) => (f x y).
17:15	drewolson	Chouser: all examples have no params it seems
17:16	AWizzArd	kotarak: that makes sense I think. Can you think of an example where one doesn't want that behaviour?
17:16	Chouser	drewolson: oh, I guess so. param types belong in those empty [] brackets. are you having a problem?
17:16	drewolson	Chouser: so if my argument is a java.awt.Graphics
17:16	AWizzArd	(def x #(-> % (+ 3) (/ 2) inc)) - I would think: add 3, divide this by 2 and inc it
17:16	AWizzArd	and yeah, it does
17:16	kotarak	AWizzArd: "(-> x (/ 3 %))"
17:16	Chouser	[foo [java.awt.Graphics] String]
17:17	AWizzArd	kotarak: but it is what you suggested first: #(-> % (/ 3))
17:17	drewolson	Chouser: hrm, that's what I tried
17:17	drewolson	let me try again
17:17	Chouser	drewolson: you got some kind of error?
17:18	kotarak	AWizzArd: that expands to (/ x 3), but what if you want (/ 3 x).
17:18	AWizzArd	this makes no sense for piping
17:18	AWizzArd	I want to divide the result of the previous operation by 3
17:19	drewolson	Chouser: yes ... No matching field found: getSimpleName for class clojure.lang.Symbol (dragon.clj:1)
17:19	drewolson	strange
17:19	Chouser	drewolson: can you paste your code and stack trace?
17:19	kotarak	AWizzArd: and maybe you want to divide 3 by the result of the previous operation sometimes.
17:19	drewolson	yes, one second
17:19	Chousuke	that doesn't look very functional in style though :/
17:20	drewolson	Chouser: http://gist.github.com/32532
17:28	Chouser	drewolson: Canvas already has a paint method with that signature.
17:29	drewolson	Chouser: right, we're trying to override
17:29	Chouser	no need to specify it in :methods
17:29	drewolson	Chouser: would i stil prefix the method with -
17:29	Chouser	yes
17:30	drewolson	alright, i've done that paint doesn't appear to be called at all
17:30	Chouser	"The :methods option defines a new method foo not present in any superclass/interfaces."
17:30	drewolson	maybe i should actually READ the documentation
17:32	Chouser	do you get a Canvas on the screen? my guess is no.
17:33	drewolson	Chouser: nope
17:34	Chouser	Are you sure you're using Canvas correctly?
17:35	drewolson	i thought so, but it's not looking like it
17:37	hiredman	clojurebot: gen-class?
17:37	clojurebot	No, hiredman, you want gen-interface + proxy
17:37	danlarkin	fancyyyy
17:42	danlarkin	re: blackdog and triddell from an hour ago: how important is it to either of you for me to add a decoder? I received a really nice email from someone with a (mostly) working decoder based on java's StreamTokenizer. I'm considering including it as an interim before I get a fancier one together
17:42	blackdog	yea, I think it's useful
17:44	blackdog	it would be better to have all in one package
17:44	Chouser	drewolson: either of these work for me: http://gist.github.com/32536
17:45	blackdog	i routinely use both
17:45	Chouser	I don't see text in the frame, but that's got to be a Java API issue, not a Clojure compilation or interop thing.
17:47	hiredman	I have yet to use gen-class for that kind of stuff
17:47	hiredman	I always use proxy
17:47	danlarkin	blackdog: what do you do for decoding ATM?
17:48	blackdog	hang on,let me check the file
17:49	blackdog	doesn't have a license, I think i got it off the group somewhere
17:49	danlarkin	ah sam colby's
17:50	RSchulz	Are all the modules in clojure.* meant to be (use)-able?
17:50	RSchulz	1:14 user=> (use 'clojure.zip)
17:50	RSchulz	java.lang.IllegalStateException: replace already refers to: #'clojure.core/replace in namespace: user (repl-1:14)
17:50	RSchulz	.../clojure/zip.clj starts with:
17:50	RSchulz	(ns clojure.zip
17:50	RSchulz	(:refer-clojure :exclude (replace remove)))
17:51	hiredman	RSchulz: yes, but that only excludes from the clojure.zip ns
17:51	RSchulz	But am I supposed to be able to (use 'clojure.zip)?
17:51	hiredman	you need to exclude replace
17:52	triddell	danlarkin: I'm just starting to think about a new project... but decoding support in the same package would be nice
17:52	RSchulz	So I'm expected to read the source of Clojure core module to be able to use it??
17:52	hiredman	actually
17:52	kotarak	RSchulz: I always use (require '[clojure.zip :as zip])
17:52	kotarak	RSchulz: certainly not.
17:52	RSchulz	When is (use ...) appropriate and when is (require ...) called for?
17:52	hiredman	RSchulz: looks like you defined your own function called replace in the user ns
17:53	RSchulz	(Not that I don't need to read a _lot_ of Clojure code!)
17:53	hiredman	er
17:53	hiredman	nm
17:53	RSchulz	Nope. I started again from scratch and did the (use ...) and got the same diagnostic.
17:53	hiredman	yeah
17:53	hiredman	I misread
17:53	kotarak	RSchulz: always require, use only with :only. As a rule of thumb.
17:54	RSchulz	It seems that clojure.zip should rename the conflicting functions in its public interface, no?
17:55	RSchulz	Because (if I'm not mistaken) that require _is_ part of its public interface.
17:55	danlarkin	triddell, blackdog: ok then, I think I'll include this contribution I was sent... at least until kotarak gets me a parser-combinator library I can use :)
17:55	RSchulz	And if not, it should be defined private, right?
17:55	drewolson	Chouser: sorry, was away
17:56	RSchulz	... Sorry, I meant to say "that (version of) _replace_ is part of the public interface".
17:56	kotarak	danlarkin: heavily working on the monad part.
17:57	kotarak	danlarkin: want to get this right. The parser code is currently a total mess.
17:58	danlarkin	kotarak: I fully understand :) I have subscribed to your updates on bitbucket
17:58	kotarak	:)
17:58	drewolson	Chouser: the first snippet from the gist works for me, however no text appears in the frame
17:59	hiredman	.repaint?
18:00	hiredman	I remember something like this
18:00	hiredman	maybe I called .pack and that made stuff render?
18:03	triddell	question: does slime/swank pickup jars from any default locations and add them to the classpath? I used to use (setq swank-clojure-binary "/path/to/script") to start slime. That just broke when I updated to the most recent. Using (setq swank-clojure-jar-path "/path/to/clojure.jar") works but it also includes jars in the classpath that I was previously using the script to include.
18:03	triddell	the included jars are in ~/.clojure directory
18:05	triddell	so, things seem to work but I'm wondering how it is picking up the jars for the classpath without me explicitly setting it up
18:08	hiredman	triddell: the clojure swank looks in ~/.clojure and adds the jars there to the classpath
18:08	gnuvince_	Damn...
18:08	gnuvince_	I just saw that map is defined in terms of every? :-/
18:09	triddell	hiredman: ok, thanks... thought I was crazy for a second
18:10	hiredman	clojurebot: please explain this whole "jar directory" thing to me
18:10	clojurebot	jar directory is -Djava.ext.dirs=$LIBS
18:20	gnuvince_	Chouser: I think we can forget the modification to every? for now
18:38	danlarkin	Why does (re-find #"[eE][+-]?" "4e+4") == "e+"? I expected + to need to be escaped, is it because it's inside [] that it doesn't?
18:40	RSchulz	danlarkin: Correct
18:40	RSchulz	Since + is positive closure which is not meaningful inside a character class, you don't have to escape it.
18:41	RSchulz	However, if you want to use a hyphen _literally_ inside a character class, you have to put it first.
18:41	RSchulz	... At least you used to in old ASCII-limited REs...
18:41	hiredman	huh
18:41	hiredman	good to know
18:42	hiredman	(- 3 2)
18:42	clojurebot	1
18:42	RSchulz	I guess that (the hyphen bit) is _not_ true in Java REs.
18:43	RSchulz	But do keep in mind that [a-z] means a, b, c, d, ..., x, y, z.
18:44	danlarkin	RSchulz: oh true, tricky. Makes sense that it should come first then
18:45	RSchulz	That was the old way. It used to be that if you left off the end of the range, it would default to "infinity" (the end of the ASCII 7-bit range).
18:45	RSchulz	Oh, the good old days.
18:45	hiredman	cute
18:48	danlarkin	so why does (re-find #"[eE][\+-]?" "4e+4") still match "e+"? Because it's looking for a backslash too? If that's the case why does (re-find #"[eE][+-]?" "4e\\4") only match "e"?
18:50	RSchulz	Because the ? is tighly binding. It applies only to the [\+-]
18:50	RSchulz	Wait. That's not right.
18:50	RSchulz	You can escape non-special characters. It just leaves them as they were.
18:51	danlarkin	ah, so the plus is a plus
18:51	RSchulz	Inside character classes, there are only two special character, the ^ when first (to invert) and the - when neither first nor last, to specify a range.
18:53	danlarkin	and \, right?
18:54	RSchulz	The java.util.regex.Pattern JavaDocs are a reasonable synopsis, but keep in mind that "Mastering Regular Expressions" is in its third edition. The 2nd ed. is 462 pages...
18:55	RSchulz	Backslash is significant only when it directly precedes one of the otherwise special occurrences.
18:55	danlarkin	:)
18:55	danlarkin	regular expressions master _you_
18:55	RSchulz	Actually, I lied (again)... There are more special character-class notations oriented around set arithmetic.
18:56	RSchulz	It can get pretty funky, but it's not that hard to understand, if you really need such esoterica. Check out the JavaDocs.
18:57	RSchulz	You know, I love REs and I've been using them for a very long time (since I started out on v6 Bell Labs Unix), and still I rarely get non-trivial ones right on the first go-'round.
18:58	danlarkin	our brains don't function well pretending to be state machines
19:00	RSchulz	Eh? My brain _is_ a state machine.
19:00	RSchulz	Last I checked...
19:00	RSchulz	Which explains all the bugs in my code, I suppose.
19:04	charlesg3	any chimp users out there?
19:04	RSchulz	I have one of those helper monkeys like Homer Simpson got once.
19:27	aperotte	hello all, I wanted to know if someone could help me out with the new gen-class
19:27	aperotte	I'm trying to extend an abstract class
19:28	aperotte	with one method that needs to be implemented and one ancestrally inherited field that needs to be exposed
19:29	danlarkin	charlesg3: I don't use vi/vim myself but there's a project called gorilla that you may want to check okut
19:29	danlarkin	s/okut/out
19:29	charlesg3	I just got chimp working... I was a little put off by the "expect problems" warning on the gorilla page
19:29	charlesg3	but I guess I may try that out well anyway, thanks though
19:31	hiredman	most of the dudes here about are emacs users
19:31	hiredman	clojurebot: what do you think of emacs?
19:31	clojurebot	uggada buggada
19:32	technomancy	what's that mean?
19:32	Chousuke	clojurebot probably doesn't think much
19:32	technomancy	true
19:50	Chouser	aperotte: it's not working?
20:03	aperotte	Chouser: I used (ns ... (:gen-class)) and that evaluated without any errors
20:03	aperotte	Chouser: but then I tried to define an instance of the class
20:03	aperotte	Chouser: and it gave me a java.lang.ClassNotFoundException
20:05	aperotte	Chouser: do I necessarily have to define the methods before creating a new instance?
20:09	aperotte	Chouser: I have to run, but thanks for offering to help.
20:27	rhickey	Chouser: thanks for writing up the watchers thing
20:28	Chouser	sure. I hope the point wasn't lost in my wordiness.
20:28	rhickey	no, it was very good
20:28	Chouser	ok, great. I nearly deleted the first half or so.
20:30	rhickey	I think that separation of concerns is important - I haven't liked how other sends have crept into my actions
20:30	rhickey	I want to refine and unify the watcher/reaction/effect concept to the other vars
20:31	rhickey	er, references, not vars
20:31	Chouser	:-) watchers on refs seem like they'd be very natural.
20:32	Chouser	pre-1.0 on that?
20:33	rhickey	I don't know - kind of wary of the import people are putting on 1.0. My main concern is to get past breaking changes, not freeze forward motion
20:33	mfredrickson_	what is the best way to create disjoint types in Clojure?
20:33	mfredrickson_	e.g. (my-type? x) => true
20:33	mfredrickson_	(list? x) => flase
20:34	rhickey	One breaking change is coming in this area - validators will be supplied with keyword args (ref 42 :validator blah), leaving room for other reference options
20:34	mfredrickson_	even if I really want my-type to be a list (for now)
20:34	Chouser	I'm asking, at least in this case, to get a sense of timing. I imagine the release will cause a bit of a stall because of doc updates, etc.
20:35	rhickey	I work on things given time and inclination - these days atoms, wrapping queues, watchers, maybe Class/method fns - small things
20:36	Chouser	ok
20:36	rhickey	reminds me I've got to get reduction in - did you match reduce on zero and one args?
20:36	Chouser	mfredrickson_: why do you need 'list?' to return false?
20:37	mfredrickson_	i suppose I don't. information hiding - the implementation
20:38	Chouser	rhickey: do you mean 2 and 3 args? collections with count of 0 and 1?
20:38	mfredrickson_	Chouser: not a big deal. mostly an idle thought
20:39	Chouser	mfredrickson_: have you looked at 'derive' and 'isa?'
20:40	mfredrickson_	Chouser: thanks. this is my first programming with Clojure. I'm porting a scheme lib I wrote
20:40	mfredrickson_	i'll take a look at those
20:42	Chouser	I haven't needed them for anything real, but they're pretty powerful.
20:43	Chouser	halloway's section on multimethods covers them really well.
20:43	Chouser	rhickey: have you seen that chapter yet? I was impressed.
20:44	Chouser	hm, looks like reduction with no init and a zero-length coll may be wrong.
20:46	Chouser	(reduce + []) ==> 0 but (reduction + []) ==> nil ... should that be (0)?
20:52	rhickey	Chouser: that's the question
20:53	rhickey	reduce with no args calls f with no args
20:55	rhickey	sorry not no args, no elements and no init
20:57	rhickey	copied that from CL, where I presumed it was there for a good reason. Probably no good reason to deviate from reduce with reduction, as then it can be described in terms of reduce
21:01	Chouser	in all other cases, though, reduction returns the same number of elements as the input collection. Should it deviate from that for zero-length collection?
21:02	Chouser	oh, that's not ture
21:02	Chouser	true
21:04	rhickey	I think you should follow reduce
22:02	Chouser	bother. that lastest reduction differs from haskell's scanl1
22:05	Chouser	with no init, scanl1 includes the first element of the coll
22:05	Chouser	which seems right to me
22:06	Chouser	amazing how much I can mess up so few lines of code.
22:06	hiredman	sounds good
22:17	heath	Is anyone familiar with the general procedure for getting something into clojure.contrib?
22:22	danlarkin	clojurebot: brain dump?
22:22	clojurebot	brain dump is http://clj.thelastcitadel.com/clojurebot
22:24	Chouser	heath: probably start with sending in a CA
22:25	heath	Sorry, the only acronym I'm coming up with is Certificate Authority :)
22:25	Chouser	heath: http://clojure.org/contributing
22:27	heath	Gotcha, saw that. I don't think I'm going to be a regular contributor - I just have a complete JSON lib that I think would be useful up there
22:28	Chouser	contrib requires the Contributor Agreement as well
22:28	heath	Though now that I think of it, if it's a liability issue then skirting the paperwork doesn't help anyone out I suppose
22:30	Chouser	once that's in, I'd try posting to the google group with your code attached
22:30	heath	Chouser: I asked a question about a week ago, but I noticed that you were in the middle of a conversation with rhickey
22:31	heath	More clearly, the question is this: I have a horrible, ugly function:
22:31	heath	(defn is-non-json-value? [value] (get {:comma true, :colon true, :end-object true, :end-array true} value))
22:31	heath	That I would like to replace
22:31	heath	For the life of me I can find the canonical way to determine if a value is a member of a collection
22:32	heath	%s/can/can't
22:32	Chouser	(def is-non-json-value? #{:comma :colon :end-object :end-array})
22:32	heath	This function takes all sorts of values, not just keywords
22:33	heath	My bad
22:33	heath	Just tried it, could have sworn that threw an exception when you sent a non-keyword value at it
22:33	heath	Thank you very much...
22:34	Chouser	sets, maps, and vectors can be using in function position.
22:34	Chouser	you're welcome
22:35	RSchulz	Keywords, too.
22:35	RSchulz	If their arguments are sets or maps.
22:35	Chouser	And Symbols!
22:36	RSchulz	Actually, regardless of their argument.
22:36	RSchulz	So simple. So elegant. So useful.
22:37	heath	This is what I did that made me think it could only handle keywords: (defn is-non-json-value? [value] (value #{:comma :colon :end-object :end-array}))
22:37	Chouser	ah, yep.
22:37	heath	That makes sense now. Very clever facility :)
22:37	RSchulz	Yes, not everything can be a function.
22:37	RSchulz	But keywords, maps and sets are functions of anything.
22:38	RSchulz	Total functions, in the mathematical sense.
22:39	heath	I realize that this has probably been hashed out before, but is there any plan in the Clojure community to have a central directory of non-clojure.contrib libraries?
22:39	RSchulz	You mean non-official contribute libraries?
22:39	heath	Yes
22:39	RSchulz	We don't really need non-Cojure code...
22:39	RSchulz	In a sense, the Google group file upload are is that.
22:40	Chouser	ick
22:40	RSchulz	And there's paste.lisp.org (if I have that name right).
22:40	RSchulz	And nothing stops people from just posting stuff.
22:40	RSchulz	And there's the Wiki.
22:40	Chouser	there has been talk of a project-hosting site targetting Clojure in particular.
22:40	RSchulz	The thing about the Clojure core and Contrib are that authors must file a contributor agreement with Rich, first.
22:41	RSchulz	It's much more of an official repository.
22:41	heath	Right
22:41	heath	When the community grows larger, I imagine that more and more people are going to try to avoid that bottleneck
22:42	RSchulz	Sure. And there will Google Code projects. And SourceForge projects. And magazine articles. And on and on.
22:42	RSchulz	I have little doubt that Clojure will have a long lifetime.
22:42	heath	I'm trying to think of other languages that have a 3rd party place for libs... I guess CPAN?
22:42	Chouser	RSchulz: 100 years? :-)
22:42	RSchulz	And many users and a lot fo open-source libraries and applications of various sorts.
22:42	heath	Not if Paul Graham has his way :)
22:42	RSchulz	Well, I don't make predictions about things that will outlive me...
22:43	RSchulz	Actually, I'm not much of a prognosticator.
22:43	RSchulz	But I think anybody in these parts is probably pretty confident that Clojure is not just a flash-in-the-pan, fad type thing.
22:43	RSchulz	Does Graham have something against Clojure?
22:43	heath	To put my previous question in context: JSON is a pretty important thing in a standard library these days
22:44	RSchulz	NIH, perhaps?
22:44	heath	Graham is shooting for Arc to be the 100 year language
22:44	heath	As far as I know there's no animosity, however
22:44	RSchulz	Sure. And JSON is eminently compatible with Clojure. I have a parser and writer for it.
22:44	walters	RSchulz: i'm pretty convinced at least that new languages are going to embrace a STM and readonly data structures
22:44	Chouser	both Graham and Yegge have acknowledged Clojure's existance while admitting they know nothing about it.
22:44	RSchulz	So in a sense, I have it supported in Clojure, though I'm working on eliminating the seams, right now.
22:44	heath	Have you released it anywhere?
22:45	RSchulz	No. So far, the bulk of my work is proprietary. We're a tiny operation, and have not yet decided to go open-source.
22:45	heath	I went looking for a JSON lib, and all I found were a couple of writers
22:45	danlarkin	heath: I also have one, http://github.com/danlarkin/clojure-json/tree/master -- doesn't have a decoder ATM but I'm working on it as we speak
22:45	RSchulz	Actually, the parser, which uses ANTLR, is derived form an open-source example from the ANTLR parser repository, so you could always start with that.
22:46	heath	danlarkin: Yes, that's one I found
22:46	RSchulz	After all, JSON is pretty simple to parse.
22:46	heath	Completely
22:46	RSchulz	Also, the underlying data structures are one-off, in a sense.
22:46	RSchulz	The parser is no good without them.
22:46	heath	Writing one was a great intro to Clojure, actually
22:47	heath	Anyway, but I was originally trying to get a CouchDB project going, got two steps in and then discovered that there's no JSON in clojure.contrib
22:47	RSchulz	walters: I think it remains to be seen how well STM scales. I am pretty certain that bare-bones threading as it exists in Java is _not_ going to be how we conquer concurrent l/ parellel programming.
22:47	Chouser	A directory or clojure libraries would be pretty useful.
22:47	RSchulz	What will supplant it, I don't know.
22:48	walters	RSchulz: right, well there is also distributed map/reduce hadoop type model that we'll likely see more
22:48	heath	Github is kind of my first place to look now
22:48	danlarkin	heath: interested in collaborating on that couchdb library? That's what motivated me towards a json library too
22:48	RSchulz	There's some kind of JavaScript something, I though. Some sort of Clojure -> JavaScript translator or something?
22:49	heath	There's a copy of clojure.contrib up on Github for some reason
22:49	heath	Which I think tells you something...
22:49	heath	danlarkin: Sure
22:49	heath	danlarkin: I was originally going to contact you with the parser side of your JSON lib
22:50	danlarkin	well the one I plan on committing soon uses StreamTokenizer which is less-than-optimal
22:50	heath	danlarkin: Got carried away :) Your writer is nicer than mine: indentation, and the writer option
22:50	danlarkin	so there's much room for improvement
22:50	Chouser	RSchulz: are you referring to ClojureScript?
22:51	heath	Mine basically just (first) and (rest)'s it's way through a string
22:51	RSchulz	I think it's tojs.clj
22:52	RSchulz	Yes. The package is apparently clojurescript.
22:52	Chouser	RSchulz: that's the one. poorly documented.
22:52	RSchulz	I don't know what it does, really.
22:52	heath	It's slow (about half the speed of an equivalent Python lib)
22:52	danlarkin	RSchulz: it's chouser's baby
22:52	RSchulz	Well, I'm like a broken record with Open Source projects on this point, but almost everything is poorly documented if you ask me...
22:52	mfredrickson_	how does one add methods to (* ...) ? Is it a multi?
22:53	RSchulz	; Reads Clojure code and emits equivalent JavaScript
22:53	RSchulz	...is not good enough documentation for you?
22:53	heath	danlarkin: here's the code in case you're interested: http://elesi.org/json.clj
22:53	Chouser	RSchulz: it's good enough for me. :-)
22:54	walters	that is one nice thing about FOSS Java, the culture has a strong doc bent
22:54	RSchulz	mfredrickson_: I think multiplication a plain function. You're going to be able to extend it using the multimethod approach unless you replace / supplant it entirely.
22:54	heath	danlarkin: To answer your question, yes, collabing on a CouchDB lib would be excellent
22:54	RSchulz	I'm not sure how practical that is for things in the core.
22:54	RSchulz	Woops.
22:54	mfredrickson_	RSchulz: did you miss a "not" in there? I think I follow
22:54	RSchulz	You're _not_ going to be able to extend it...
22:54	heath	danlarkin: I'm porting my site off of Google App Engine (holy unstable!), and it's a perfect fit
22:55	mfredrickson_	RSchulz: well shucks, but thanks
22:55	RSchulz	Holy... Some typos are a lot funnier than others.
22:56	danlarkin	heath: aye I know, it's a very smart design
22:56	RSchulz	I know of at least one core package that replaces two clojure.core functions, so I guess it's not impossible.
22:56	RSchulz	But you'd have to totall take over multiplication, including for rationals, primitives and BigIntegers.
22:57	kwertii	Is there any way to dynamically load .jars from within a Clojure program, or do you need to specify them in advance on the Java command line?
22:58	heath	danlarkin: Just realized, that code up there won't run. Halfway done integrating Chouser's function...
22:58	RSchulz	Check out (add-classpath ...)
22:59	RSchulz	Technically, only classes are dynamically loaded. JARs just supply one or more classes for when the classloader decides they're needed.
22:59	kwertii	RSchulz: awesome. thanks!
23:00	Chouser	be careful with add-classpath, though -- use it too much and rhickey might take it away. :-)
23:00	RSchulz	Nah. Just don't tell him about it.
23:00	mfredrickson_	RSchulz: do you think rhickey would take a patch to turn all math into multi methods? love it or hate it operator overload is here to stay
23:00	RSchulz	Unless you think he's got a snoopbot here...
23:00	Chouser	mfredrickson_: nope. too slow
23:00	RSchulz	Well, I can't say, but you'd want to discuss it on the list first. Probably not, though.
23:01	mfredrickson_	Chouser: JIT? but yes, i'll get on the list and ask
23:01	RSchulz	Exactly how much is the rock-bottom added overhead of a multimethod dispatch over a plain function call?
23:01	RSchulz	I figured at a minimum it's an extra function call, right?
23:02	Chouser	cold cache it has to do 'isa?' which I think involves some kind tree search.
23:04	RSchulz	Is the isa? part inherent? That's the basis of the comparison between the result of the dispatcher and the individual method signatures?
23:04	RSchulz	So there's at least two extra calls?
23:05	RSchulz	One to compute the dispatch value and another to check the isa? And the latter is done repeatedly until a success is found?
23:05	RSchulz	That does seem a bit excessive...
23:05	Chouser	but even with a hot cache it would have to check the cache and make antoher function call
23:05	kwertii	Chouser: one of the big selling points is dynamicity, no? must I know in advance what libraries my program may require? ;)
23:05	RSchulz	You could use one of the rapid sub-type tests. I implemented one for my theorem prover. The dispatch cost is amazinly low.
23:07	RSchulz	kwertii: Well, I think well in excess of 90% of all programs use fixed libraries. Only things like servers and servlet containers have dynamicity at that level.
23:07	RSchulz	But I doubt (add-classpath) or an equivalent will go away permanently.
23:08	RSchulz	And you can always go around Clojure and deal with the underlying JVM facilities directly, if necessary.
23:08	kwertii	another angle: what about REPL dev in SLIME? I will write many different programs; each one needs different libs... so without that, I have to go edit my .emacs to put whatever jars that particular program needs on the command line.
23:08	RSchulz	I don't know. You'll have to ask an Emacser.
23:09	RSchulz	Though once it's working, I guess the same issues will exist for Enclojure and whatever Peter Wolf comes up with for IDEA.
23:13	danlarkin	hiredman: this looks an awful lot like your room... http://www.viceland.com/int/v14n8/htdocs/anti/2_large.jpg