#clojure – 2008-12-04

2008-12-04

00:31	chavo_	clojure.contrib.fcase/in-case macro uses private function in-test-case. When it is expanded in a different namespace the compiler throws an exception. Is this a bug?
00:32	timothypratley	(defmacro while[v cnd & body]
00:32	timothypratley	`(loop[~v ~cnd] (when ~v ~@body (recur ~cnd))))
00:33	timothypratley	<-- what is wrong with the v
00:34	hiredman	uh
00:34	timothypratley	(while msg (.readLine input)
00:34	timothypratley	(println "Read " socket msg))
00:34	hiredman	you are evaling it twice?
00:34	timothypratley	<-- doesn't work
00:35	timothypratley	hiredman: oh damn
00:35	hiredman	:)
00:50	replaca	Question - in "regular" lisp, to create an accumulator, the idiom is to cons up a list and reverse it, in clojure you can create a vector and just conj to it, skipping the reverse step. What's the trade-off?
01:00	timothypratley	replaca: isn't that just a fundamental trade-off question between lists and vectors in general? ie: list pop is faster than vector pop, list push is faster than vector push - ie: nothing specific to clojure or lisp as it relates to the data structure?
01:06	replaca	well, yeah, but in lisp that's not going to be the usual idiom cause
01:06	replaca	you don't have first class vectors
01:06	replaca	in clojure you can hardly avoid them
01:08	replaca	so the question is: what's the penalty for ([...] conj x) vs. (cons x (...))
01:08	replaca	if the former is close to constant time it seems nice
01:09	replaca	(THat is, when used over an accumulator, are they both clsoe to O(n) time?
01:09	replaca	or is the vector going to be a lot more expensive?
01:11	notallama	the vector is technically something like O(n log(n)), i think. but that's log base 32, so the constants quite possibly make it faster in practice than list + reverse. i dunno, though.
01:11	fyuryu	replaca: appending to the end of a vector is cheap
01:11	replaca	cool. And does that tend to be the idiom folks are using?
01:12	replaca	it does make the code a little cleaner
01:12	fyuryu	replaca: from what I've seen, yes
01:12	replaca	I find I use vectors just cause the syntax encourages me to, which makes me a little nervous :-)
01:13	replaca	Thanks!
01:13	fyuryu	at worst, appending to a vector is log32(n)
01:13	replaca	which for small things is fine
01:14	fyuryu	I say at worst, because I don't remember if there's an optimization just for appending
01:14	replaca	yeah
01:14	fyuryu	I looked at the implementation some time ago, don't remember now, sorry
01:15	replaca	that's OK -> I'm looking for idiom & not being stupid more than precise performace
02:00	timothypratley	user=> (str [1 2 3 4])
02:00	timothypratley	"[1 2 3 4]"
02:00	timothypratley	user=> (str 1 2 3 4)
02:00	timothypratley	"1234"
02:01	timothypratley	how can I make mystr behave like the 2nd when passed the 1st?
02:01	lvijay	(apply str [1 2 3 4]) ?
02:01	timothypratley	great! :)
02:01	timothypratley	thanks
02:48	Lau_of_DK	Morning gents
02:57	replaca	I'm new to #clojure, but I've already learned that when Lau shows up for the morning in DK, it's time for me to go to bed in San Francisco :-)
02:58	stuarthalloway	in that case I better go to be in North Carolina...
02:58	stuarthalloway	(bed)
02:58	replaca	oh yeah, you're up way too late!
02:59	replaca	but I have a little boy to take to school in the morning so there's no sleeping in
03:00	stuarthalloway	:-) night all
03:01	replaca	night!
03:15	Lau_of_DK	replaca: :)
03:18	timothypratley	I have a thread which pops messages off a queue and processes them using a multimethod which dispatches on 'message type'. Trouble is that in order for it to access outside information, I put the message definitions inside the processing thread. So when I make multiple processing threads, the functions get redefined [I stupidly thought they would be local functions but they aren't].
03:19	timothypratley	So I have some options... I could persist with the 'local functions' but using a let, but I can't see how I can make multimethods work inside that.
03:19	timothypratley	Or I could make the functions global and pass in the extra information... but again I can't add extra arguments to multimethods
03:21	timothypratley	Kind of a bit hard to explain I could paste the code it is about 50 lines
03:21	Lau_of_DK	Cant you simply put the shared information in a global ref to a hash-map ?
03:22	timothypratley	Lau: but how will the method know what to look up? each thread has a different 'information'
03:23	timothypratley	Mind if I paste it?
03:23	hiredman	lisppaste8: url
03:23	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
03:24	lisppaste8	timothypratley pasted "MR" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71566
03:25	timothypratley	ooo neato thanks
03:26	timothypratley	So yeah if you take a look there you might see what I'm trying to do, and where I've gone wrong
03:27	timothypratley	The important part is that client is required to process the messages
03:27	hiredman	why can't you just pass client?
03:28	timothypratley	maybe I can :) I tried modifying the multimethod example given on the website (using shapes)
03:28	timothypratley	adding an extra argument caused them to fail
03:28	hiredman	oh
03:29	hiredman	you just need a slightly more complex dispatch function
03:29	timothypratley	ah....
03:29	timothypratley	so I make a function that takes 2 args
03:29	timothypratley	and just dispatches on the first?
03:29	hiredman	yes
03:29	timothypratley	Hmmm great!
03:29	timothypratley	thanks.
03:29	hiredman	clojurebot: multimethods?
03:29	clojurebot	multimethods is what separates the boys from the men.
03:29	timothypratley	:)
03:30	hiredman	<-- lame
03:31	hiredman	for my multimethod stuff I just make a struct and put everything I could possibly need in it
03:36	timothypratley	hmmm actually that might be more convenient for me too
03:36	timothypratley	I could just assoc the extra data to the message
03:37	timothypratley	I'll have a look at both ways
07:31	Chouser	rhickey: good morning.
07:32	Kerris7	Good morning Chouser
07:32	Chouser	Kerris7: good morning!
07:32	rhickey	hi
07:33	Chouser	I replaced a couple (dosync (commute ...))s with (swap! ...)s last night
07:33	Kerris7	I've been writing 90% of my Java homework using (tail) recursion and constructive instead of destructive updates :V
07:33	Chouser	it took me a while to realize I was relying on the return value of the dosync
07:33	Chouser	Kerris7: excellent!
07:33	rhickey	ah
07:33	Kerris7	this functional paradigm is catching
07:35	Chouser	Kerris7: have to be careful of those stack overflows in Java, though, no?
07:35	Kerris7	yeah, been running into a lot of those lately
07:36	rhickey	java -Xss
07:37	Chouser	so now have (do (swap! foo ...) @foo)
07:37	rhickey	CL programmers just set a stack appropriate for their data
07:37	Chouser	seriously? amazing.
07:38	rhickey	Chouser: yeah, I held off on returning val just to give myself some more time to think about it
07:38	Chouser	atom's nice and fast, though.
07:38	Chouser	rhickey: sure. Don't rush on my account.
07:38	rhickey	I think atom is an important addition
07:39	rhickey	fits in the reference model nicely
07:40	Chouser	yep. I simply replaced 'ref' with 'atom' and then made the 'set!' substitiution. Everything else used @ already -- very simple change.
07:46	rhickey	people were having to use refs for truly isolated things like memoization caches, which is overkill
07:49	rhickey	svn 1143: swap! returns new value
07:55	hoeck	are there some more docs on atom and swap (besides (doc ..))?
07:55	chavo_	/
07:57	rhickey	hoeck: not yet
07:57	rhickey	do you have a question on them?
07:58	Chouser	rhickey: yes, that was exactly my case here. my little prime stream seems to be about twice as fast with atom vs ref/dosync
07:58	clojurebot	svn rev 1143; swap! returns new value
07:58	rhickey	Chouser: wow - that's a testament to dosync
07:59	hoeck	rhickey: what are their use cases, where do they replace a ref?
08:00	rhickey	anyway, the decision shouldn't be about perf, but independence. There's no way to coordinate changes to atoms, so they better be independent forever. refs are for coordinated change
08:01	rhickey	hoeck: if you imagine a grid with independent/coordinated axis and async/sync on the other...
08:02	rhickey	agents: independent + async
08:02	rhickey	refs: coordinated + sync
08:02	rhickey	atoms: independent + sync
08:02	rhickey	and coordinated + async makes no sense
08:03	lisppaste8	cemerick pasted "loop destructuring happening in recur's lexical scope?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71571
08:03	clojurebot	svn rev 1144; made APersistenVector.compareTo use Util.compare on elements
08:06	rhickey	cemerick: binding is not lexical scope
08:07	hoeck	rhickey: thanks!
08:07	cemerick	rhickey: well, within a single thread it is, no?
08:07	rhickey	no, it's dynamic scope
08:07	cemerick	I didn't actually consider this an issue with binding, but with the destructuring of loop happening in recur
08:08	rhickey	you'll have to show me a problem not involving binding
08:09	AWizzArd	Btw, atom is not yet in the api description on clojure.org right? What is it good for?
08:09	rhickey	if you use an expression involving blah it means what ever the value of blah is at the time
08:11	cemerick	rhickey: right -- and my intuition about recur is that it pushes the arguments provided back into the in-context loop (or fn) -- in the provided example, doesn't that mean that the binding of dec to fn has been popped off by the time that arg gets to loop's destructuring?
08:13	AWizzArd	What is an atomic reference?
08:13	rhickey	cemerick: dynamically, no - imagine it was a tail call
08:14	rhickey	(defn foo [] ... (binding ... (foo)))
08:14	cemerick	having never done any scheming, I'll have to think about that for a little while...
08:15	cemerick	rhickey: ah, so effectively, recur "carries forward" the body of the loop, so each recur maintains recur's lexical scope...
08:16	rhickey	you have to stop talking about lexical scope with binding - binding is not lexical
08:16	rhickey	that it's problem/benefit
08:16	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "primes using atom" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71572
08:17	Chouser	AWizzArd: ^ an example of atom and set!
08:17	Chouser	sorry, swap!
08:17	cemerick	it's amazing how far one can get without truly understanding things!
08:17	rhickey	cemerick: :)
08:17	AWizzArd	oh, swap! is also new
08:17	cemerick	Short of recur, then, I'm unclear about how binding != let given a single thread of execution
08:18	rhickey	dynamic binding can be confusing
08:19	lvijay	so atoms are unsynchronized mutable objects?
08:19	rhickey	cemerick: because any use of a dynamic var anywhere means 'the current dynamic value', not the value at the point the code was written
08:19	AWizzArd	atom is more or less like an agent, but it runs in the same thread yes? And we don't (send) an atom, but (swap! it).
08:19	rhickey	lvijay: not at all, that is why they only support swap! - it is atomic and not subject to race conditions
08:20	rhickey	but it is CAS sync, not monitor sync
08:20	lvijay	ok now i'm confused
08:20	AWizzArd	what is a cas sync?
08:20	lvijay	what is CAS synch?
08:20	rhickey	compare-and-swap
08:21	rhickey	is an atomic operation
08:21	lisppaste8	cemerick annotated #71571 with "perhaps finally understanding bindings" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71571#1
08:21	AWizzArd	compare with what?
08:21	lvijay	is the code for atom in src/clj/clojure/core.clj?
08:22	rhickey	internally swap! uses a cas spin, essentially read, make new value, try to swap it in, if when swapping it is found that the value has changed, don't replace it, try again
08:22	rhickey	core_proxy.clj
08:22	AWizzArd	10k retries?
08:22	rhickey	AWizzArd: ?
08:22	lvijay	is it like: value=atom; synchonized (lock) { if (lock == value) swap(atom, new_value); }
08:23	AWizzArd	dosync retry 10k times before they give up
08:23	lvijay	pseudo java
08:23	rhickey	AWizzArd: no retry limit
08:23	AWizzArd	You said swap! retries if it sees that the value has changed (from some other thread)
08:24	lvijay	ok, spin lock.
08:24	lvijay	got it
08:24	lvijay	now i look at the code
08:24	lvijay	are there any example uses?
08:24	cemerick	rhickey: so, is it right to say that, conceptually, binding just set!'s the vars with the values initially provided, and then resets them to their pre-binding values upon exit?
08:24	lvijay	example code, i mean
08:25	AWizzArd	cemerick: but only for this specific thread
08:25	rhickey	cemerick: dynamically, yes, it's a stack discipline
08:25	AWizzArd	other threads still see the original binding
08:25	cemerick	right, I'm only talking about single-threaded execution here
08:26	cemerick	well, that clarifies things quite a bit :-)
08:26	lvijay	ah so it uses AtomicReference
08:26	lvijay	neat
08:27	rhickey	lvijay: yes, just wraps AtomicReference in Clojure abstraction, and makes easy to use, supports deref/@, validators
08:27	Chouser	lvijay: I just posted an example of atom and swap! http://paste.lisp.org/display/71572
08:28	Chouser	probably the simplest possible use case
08:28	lvijay	Chouser: you call that simple???
08:29	Chouser	well, I mean the use of atom is simple.
08:29	Chouser	no compare-and-set! no validator.
08:29	rhickey	memoize would probably be simplest use
08:29	rhickey	no prime logic
08:30	Chouser	true.
08:30	AWizzArd	for? :-)
08:30	rhickey	Chouser
08:30	rhickey	to write memoize
08:30	rhickey	:)
08:30	lvijay	:)
08:31	abrooks	heh.
08:31	hoeck	:)
08:31	lvijay	ok my repl just hung because of the paste
08:31	abrooks	Chouser: No pressure. :)
08:32	cemerick	I think a simple example of some code set!-ing a var within the lexical scope of a binding form would help to clarify things for any other pikers like myself who come across http://clojure.org/vars
08:32	abrooks	You know.. the problem with identifiers that allow exclamation points is that I spent a moment trying to figure out why people were so excited about swap!
08:33	lvijay	:)
08:33	cemerick	Until now, I've only thought of binding as being a handy way to thread a value across fn calls, but clearly I've not been using everything available to me.
08:33	rhickey	cemerick: the best example of the power of binding is out
08:34	AWizzArd	What is the main difference between atoms and agents? That atoms don't run in their own thread?
08:34	cemerick	rhickey: which I've used a good deal, but even then, it still just feels like a cross-fn let with a globally-available storage location
08:34	rhickey	although set! is interesting as a way to communicate up the stack
08:35	rhickey	cemerick: I see
08:35	cemerick	I think the set! example is really what exemplifies the mechanics of what's going on
08:36	gnuvince	Hello
08:36	cemerick	that is the mechanism for bubbling up data from many frames down, though, right?
08:36	rhickey	cemerick: yes
08:37	lisppaste8	lvijay annotated #71572 with "this returns nil?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71572#1
08:39	lvijay	can someone comment on the above paste? I replaced Chouser's (iterate inc 3) with (range 1 100)
08:43	lisppaste8	rhickey pasted "memoize with atom" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71574
08:44	lvijay	rhickey: thanks.
08:44	lvijay	that was easier to understand
08:52	lisppaste8	lvijay annotated #71572 with "this works" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71572#2
08:55	Lau_of_DK	Is anyone working on a Clojure Yansippet?
08:55	Lau_of_DK	s/Yansippet/Yasnippet
08:55	AWizzArd	rhickey: if-let :-)
08:55	lisppaste8	rhickey annotated #71574 with "forgot about if-let" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71574#1
08:55	AWizzArd	uh!
08:59	lvijay	Lau_of_DK: what's yasnippet?
08:59	Lau_of_DK	Its something that comes close to Intellisense for Emacs, speeds things up quite a bit
09:00	cemerick	are snippets at all useful in a lisp where boilerplate is slight to nonexistent?
09:00	lvijay	i was writing something like that
09:00	Lau_of_DK	http://code.google.com/p/yasnippet/
09:00	Lau_of_DK	Check out the screencast
09:00	lvijay	i posted it to the groups yesterday
09:00	lvijay	oh wait
09:00	lvijay	intellisense
09:00	Lau_of_DK	cemerick: Somebodys who's made the attempt will have to answer that
09:00	lvijay	that's a nifty thing
09:01	cemerick	I just can't think of any repetitive code patterns I run into shrug
09:02	AWizzArd	how can send a thread sleeping for n milliseconds?
09:03	Lau_of_DK	cemerick: There are a few things where tab completion would speed it up, like you type map<tab> and you get (map % %) to quickly enter. Im not sure how good the idea is, thats why I asked
09:03	lvijay	(Thread/sleep n)
09:03	AWizzArd	thx
09:04	cemerick	I think the biggest wins will be sexpr navigation/editing primitives and completion of java names (in enclojure, hopefully :-))
09:05	Lau_of_DK	Javanames would be nice
09:05	lvijay	so that's what i submitted (incompletely) to the clojure group yesterday
09:05	lvijay	let me see if i can find it
09:08	lvijay	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/5595e9597e14c8b3/cce596f2aa248408
09:10	cemerick	lvijay: I'm sure ericthorsen and crew have that sort of thing on the drawing board
09:10	lvijay	that's good to know
09:10	lvijay	will it help with emacs?
09:10	cemerick	the church of emacs is likely on its own ;-)
09:11	lvijay	my plan was to write this in clojure, inspect a clojure file for Java-styled symbols (camel case, starts with caps...) and build import statements where possible
09:12	lvijay	emacs thru swank would use this to import files
09:12	lvijay	but i got bored :)
09:12	cemerick	yeah, some standard modules to support IDE functionality are surely welcome. I know the enclojure and eclipse plugin teams have talked (at least briefly) about sharing some base functionality.
09:14	RSchulz	Good morning...
09:14	RSchulz	Who checked in the current clojure-contrib/trunk/build.xml?
09:14	RSchulz	It's broken.
09:14	RSchulz	BUILD FAILED
09:14	RSchulz	/repo/JT/clojure-svn/clojure-contrib/trunk/build.xml:62: The <jar> type doesn't support the nested "path" element.
09:14	RSchulz	Or is my version of ant outdated?
09:15	drewolson	RSchulz: i'm fairly sure that should be classpath, but i didn't check it in :)
09:15	lvijay	RSchulz: ant works for me
09:15	lvijay	i'm on svn 1144
09:15	drewolson	RSchulz: works for me too
09:16	RSchulz	Which SVN rev are you at? I just did an "svn up" this morning before the failing build.
09:16	RSchulz	That's the SVN for Clojure. I'm talking about Clojure-Contrib.
09:16	RSchulz	Rev is 273.
09:16	drewolson	RSchulz: 273
09:16	lvijay	sorry, i missed that bit. i'm on some old clojure-contrib
09:16	RSchulz	Which version of ant are you using?
09:16	drewolson	1.7.1
09:17	RSchulz	I'm using 1.6.2
09:17	drewolson	hrm, that might be the issue
09:17	RSchulz	Time to upgrade, I guess...
09:18	lvijay	RSchulz: since ant 1.6.2 The nested indexjars element specifies a PATH like structure. Its content is completely ignored unless you set the index attribute of the task to true.
09:18	lvijay	http://ant.apache.org/manual/CoreTasks/jar.html
09:19	RSchulz	Ha. Somewhere along the line, I already downloaded the tarball!
09:25	RSchulz	OK. That was it. Sorry for the noise.
09:44	Chouser	I was going for classy, but I think I ended up with cheesy: http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/clojure-conc.png
09:44	Chouser	oh well. there's the concurrency graph that rich described.
09:45	rhickey	typo: s.b. independent
09:46	rhickey	colorful!
09:47	cemerick	it's very SICP-esque :-)
09:50	Chouser	fixed, thanks.
09:50	gnuvince	heheh :)
09:51	Chouser	certainly not up to tomhickey standards, is it. :-P
09:51	rhickey	Chouser: thanks, I think that graph is the way to think about refs
09:51	rhickey	er, references
09:52	Chouser	of course var is missing to make it a complete clojure-supported-mutable chart. We might have to go 3d for that.
09:53	rhickey	Chouser: the other D is shared/isolated, complicated by the shared root bindings of vars
09:53	Chouser	if they were forced into that chart, I guess Var would be synchronous/independent?
09:54	gnuvince	What does atom do?
09:54	Chouser	gnuvince: doesn't the chart answer your question?
09:54	Chouser	:-)
09:55	gnuvince	Chouser: I guess I don't see why independent data needs to be synchronized
09:56	Chouser	it can be independent of other state, but still shared by multiple threads.
09:57	Chouser	In C: x = x + 1 has a race condition, even if x is independent of any other state
09:58	Chouser	ref and dosync can do the job, but that's more work than needed if not coordinating multiple refs.
09:58	Chouser	so atom provides a thread-safe mutable solution for a piece of state that stands alone.
09:59	gnuvince	more work for the programmer or more work for the run-time?
09:59	Chouser	both
09:59	Chouser	(dosync (alter x inc)) becomes (swap! x inc)
10:00	Chouser	...and the runtime has to do much less work.
10:00	gnuvince	ok
10:05	rhickey	Chouser: the graph you have is the shared plane, the isolated plane would have only var in sync/independent, but the async/coordinated flavors make no sense in that plane anyway
10:07	Chouser	yeah, ok. async within a single thread -- I guess not.
11:04	Chouser	hm! I only just now noticed that def doesn't support destructuring.
11:08	danlarkin	how would it? (def [a b] [1 2])?
11:10	Chouser	why not?
11:20	danlarkin	not saying it shouldn't
11:32	danlarkin	but it could only destructure as a vector? how would a map work
11:32	AWizzArd	danlarkin: same as everywhere else
11:33	drewolson	is there an easy way to turn ([1 2] [3 4]) into {1 2 3 4}
11:34	rhickey	drewolson: (into {} [[1 2] [3 4]])
11:35	AWizzArd	(let [{val1 :key1, val2 :key2} {:hallo 10 :key1 30 :key2 40 :x :y}] ...)
11:36	Chouser	danlarkin: for the record, I'm not saying it should, I was just surprised to notice it didn't.
11:36	AWizzArd	danlarkin: check also http://clojure.org/special_forms#toc4
11:36	Chouser	I've never wanted it before, and even in the case where I just thought of it it would have been a poor choice.
11:36	AWizzArd	Yeah, I also thought that destructuring works everywhere, where bindings are made
11:37	AWizzArd	Chouser: you basically wanted something like (in Python) a, b, c = 10, 20, 30
11:37	Chouser	AWizzArd: yes
11:38	Chouser	The reason I didn't want them separate is I wanted them to share a lexical scope.
11:38	AWizzArd	is it for def's not always the global scope?
11:39	Chouser	(def [a b] (let [x ... y ...] [(fn f1 ...) (fn f2 ...)]))
11:39	Chouser	this would create global 'a' and 'b' that each closed over the same 'x' and 'y'
11:44	dthomas	Can you not turn that inside out? (let ... (defn ...) (defn ...))?
11:45	Chouser	yeah, I guess that would be okay. def's anywhere other than the top level scare me.
11:45	Chouser	well, not scare -- make me uncomfortable.
11:49	drewolson	rhickey: thanks
11:50	AWizzArd	sure, one can work around this of course
11:50	AWizzArd	destructuring nothing but syntactic sugar
11:50	AWizzArd	+is
12:21	hiredman	clojurebot: latest?
12:21	clojurebot	latest is 1144
12:34	danlarkin	clojurebot: you're so rad
12:34	clojurebot	I don't understand.
12:34	danlarkin	you wouldn't... :-/
12:43	RSchulz	Does clojurebot have to be told the latest SVN rev?
12:51	duck1123	RSchulz: I think it automatically updates that value, but if you tell it the latest is something else, it will announce back up to the latest
12:51	RSchulz	Spiffy
12:57	technomancy	RSchulz: yeah, he polls it every five minutes.
12:57	technomancy	clojurebot: latest?
12:57	clojurebot	latest is 1144
12:57	RSchulz	So clojurebot _is_ a he, eh?
12:57	technomancy	heh... officially an it, but I can't keep things straight.
12:58	duck1123	I think the general consensus has been to refer to it as male
14:19	hiredman	clojurebot: alter is <reply>no, you mean commute
14:19	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
14:19	clojurebot	Roger.
14:20	hiredman	uh oh
14:20	ozy`	clojurebot: info
14:20	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
14:20	ozy`	clojurebot: stats
14:20	clojurebot	excusez-moi
14:21	hiredman	ugh
14:22	hiredman	side effects in my transactions
14:28	Chouser	the only high-order functions that provide any state from previous iterations are reduce and iterate, right?
14:29	rhickey	Chouser: I think so
14:30	Chouser	and of those only iterate can produce a lazy sequence
14:31	Chouser	I probably should just use lazy-cons
14:32	AWizzArd	How can I select (filter) every nth element of an collection into a new one?
14:33	Chouser	AWizzArd: take-nth
14:33	Chouser	which is essentially a special case of partition
14:34	rhickey	?
14:34	AWizzArd	In the mathematical sense?
14:35	Chouser	(defn take-nth [n c] (map first (partition 1 n c)))
14:36	rhickey	that's not a case of partition
14:36	rhickey	that's a use of partition
14:36	Chouser	yes, of course you're right.
14:36	Chouser	I've forgotten the 'map first' detail before too.
14:37	rhickey	I thought you had some way to do take-nth with just partition :)
14:37	Chouser	I did too. :-P
14:39	rhickey	anyone planning on attending ILC 2009 in Boston this March 22-25?
14:40	rhickey	and would you sit through a full day Clojure tutorial if there was one?
14:41	Kerris7	why do all the cool things happen on the other side of the pond :(
14:41	Chouser	...and half-way across the continent.
14:42	rhickey	Kerris7: I'm speaking at QCon in London in March also
14:42	Kerris7	:O
14:43	Kerris7	crumbs I'll have to put that down on my timetable
14:47	rhickey	half day Clojure tutorial?
14:47	rhickey	hate Boston?
14:47	Kerris7	rhickey: you'll be doing the Functional and Concurrent Programming Languages Applied track?
14:48	rhickey	Kerris7: no - Emerging languages in the enterprise - http://qconlondon.com/london-2009/tracks/show_track.jsp?trackOID=231
14:48	Kerris7	Alright, thanks.
14:49	Chouser	rhickey: can't get to Boston.
14:50	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: One thing I dont remember if you commented on before. I understood why you picked functional programming and concurrency as main focus points for clojure. But what made you settle on Lisp ?
14:50	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: Lisp is right
14:52	Lau_of_DK	So would you say its primarily an emotional decision? :)
14:53	rhickey	no
14:55	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: Lisp can do what the other languages also can. But on top of it, you don't write programs as strings, but instead as something like parse trees. That gives you additional control that is harder to get in other languages.
14:55	gnuvince	Lau_of_DK: small core, very extensible, code can manipulate code
14:56	ozy`	Lau_of_DK: plus the parentheses look really neat
14:56	gnuvince	Lau_of_DK: the alternatives are slim
14:56	Kerris7	the QCon registration fees are impressive .__.
14:56	ozy`	(if you're going to do functional programming but you don't want to do lisp, the alternatives are basically ML and Haskell)
14:56	AWizzArd	The parens are there mostly because we have functions that take any number of args, and to make writing macros easier.
14:56	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: you could propose specific alternatives for us to shoot down. :-)
14:56	AWizzArd	ozy`: Erlang and F#
14:57	Lau_of_DK	gnuvince, AWizzArd, thanks good points
14:57	ozy`	AWizzArd: you're right, there's Erlang. F# is basically ML though
14:57	Lau_of_DK	But Im really interesting in what you mean rhickey, when you say that Lisp is right, what do you base that on ?
14:57	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: Ive always been fond of the x86 Assembler language, its very concise and clean of misunderstandings and bloat
14:58	gnuvince	Lau_of_DK: the design has been pretty stable for 50 years and (most) other languages still don't have the capabilities that Lisp can provide.
14:58	rhickey	among other things, code is data
14:58	rhickey	or should be
14:58	AWizzArd	Lau: you just got the reasons what makes Lisp special. Usually it takes most people several years to understand this.
14:58	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: lisp allows you to add new language primitives. Assembly does not. Next?
14:59	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd: I know and Im familiar with Lisp and its history, so when I ask Rich its because I was interesting in his view on the subject specifically. Not because I dont have my own oppinion.
14:59	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: HAHA
14:59	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: I think C# coupled with Visual Studio provides awesome development speeds.
15:00	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: lisp allows you to add new language primitives. C# does not. Next?
15:00	Chouser	:-)
15:00	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: after Rich said it was not an emotional descision it means it must be something that Lisp has and most languages don't. So, the question was implicitly answered by then.
15:00	AWizzArd	Lau: it is not C#, but the libraries of .NET.
15:00	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd: Thanks alot
15:01	AWizzArd	Reusing code is the productivity boost number 1.
15:01	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd: wrong, Emacs is always #1
15:01	AWizzArd	If you just need to say (foo 1 2) instead of writing 10-2000 LOC you are more productive.
15:02	Chousuke	basing a language on lisp also lets you not worry that much about what the syntax will be like, because it's extensible. After all, every decision you have to make limits what the programmer can (easily) do.
15:02	rhickey	Syntax is generally language fail
15:02	AWizzArd	C# does not offer anything important that Lisp doesn't. So in general you can't outperform Lisp with C#, language wise.
15:03	AWizzArd	As soon libs come in the game is different. But Rich solved this problem, by giving Clojure all jvm libs.
15:03	Lau_of_DK	I said C# coupled with Visual Studio
15:03	AWizzArd	An IDE can help.
15:03	rhickey	BTW, I did not say only Lisp is right
15:03	rhickey	But C# is definitely wrong
15:04	rhickey	:)
15:04	Lau_of_DK	<rhickey> Lau_of_DK: Lisp is right
15:04	Kerris7	I just like the way how functional languages tend to encourage people to think before coding, rather than spending time sifting through APIs</anecdotal evidence>
15:04	AWizzArd	But currently the AI in VS is smaller than the natural intelligence of most humans. So, VS won't help too much.
15:04	AWizzArd	As soon Visual Studio becomes about as intelligent as humans, then languages won't matter any longer.
15:04	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: if C# with an IDE is nice, try to imagine clojure with an equally good IDE. :p
15:05	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd: When was the last time you tried VS?
15:05	Lau_of_DK	The intellisense there is insane nowadays
15:05	Lau_of_DK	Chousuke: I am trying... hard :)
15:05	Lau_of_DK	My Emacs is almost up to speed now :)
15:05	AWizzArd	Lau: x = a+8; how can the ide help me here?
15:05	AWizzArd	I wanted to say x = a+9
15:05	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd: I think you need to go to #newbies to have that answered :)
15:06	AWizzArd	No Lau, the IDE can't understand humans and their intentions. It does all it do mechanically, without any thinking involved.
15:06	AWizzArd	And lot's of stuff that IDEs can do are not needed in Lisp anymore.
15:07	leadnose	speaking about intentions, i found this a rather nice read: http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/18047/page1/
15:07	AWizzArd	The ide has to provide this stuff, because otherwise languages like C# and Java would be impossible to write programs in.
15:09	Kerris7	Chousuke: do you use enclojure?
15:09	AWizzArd	What do we need setters/getters for in Clojure? It is nice that an IDE can insert the code for them, but they are useless.
15:10	Chousuke	Kerris7: no
15:10	AWizzArd	The wizards, that insert good bits of code are basically trying to simulate what macros do in Lisp.
15:10	Chousuke	Kerris7: just SLIME
15:10	gnuvince	rhickey: are there other languages that you find "right"?
15:10	Chousuke	AWizzArd: heh. macros are more readable too
15:11	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd: I disagree
15:11	Chousuke	AWizzArd: mostly because there's less to read.
15:11	AWizzArd	Lau: with a few more years of Lisp experience you wouldn't, so let's talk in 2011 again
15:12	Chouser	gnuvince: if there were, I imagine he'd be using them instead of creating Clojure :-)
15:12	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd: Actually it might be you who need a little experience, but only time well tell
15:13	rhickey	gnuvince: compromises abound. Haskell has its own conceptual rightness, but is syntactically wrong
15:13	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: IDE code generation is basically manually copy-pasting expanded macros into your code :/
15:14	kib2	rhickey: why do you think Haskell is syntactically wrong ?
15:14	Chousuke	if you wanted to make some stuff expand differently after a while, that's impossible to do with generated code. You'll have to rewrite all expansions manually :/
15:14	gnuvince	kib2: probably because the syntax cannot be manipulated
15:15	gnuvince	Chouser: there can be others which are just not his cup of tea. I find Factor interesting for example, but don't see me writing code with anytime soon
15:15	leadnose	there is always template haskell and liskell :)
15:16	rhickey	leadnose: I definitely need to check out Liskell - does it come with a translator that turns ordinary Haskell into sexprs?
15:16	kib2	gnuvince: right, but I've heard of a project to handle sort of macros in haskell
15:17	leadnose	I haven't actually tried it, just seems a neat idea with the type checking of haskell and flexibility of lisp and macros
15:17	gnuvince	kib2: TemplateHaskell. It's possible, but it's definitly a whole lot messier than Lisp
15:17	kib2	gnuvince: that's it !
15:17	AWizzArd	TemplateHaskell only showes that some Haskell coders think that something is missing with the Haskell syntax.
15:18	rhickey	haskell simply does too much with adjacency, you constantly have to parse, apply precedence etc. currying is too subtle
15:18	kib2	There's another interesting language : factor. It has macros, seems really powerfull but lacks docs.
15:18	gnuvince	kib2: there's a guy writing a tutorial that's pretty good
15:18	gnuvince	http://elasticdog.com/2008/11/beginning-factor-introduction/
15:19	leadnose	I've found that haskell is sometimes kind of hard to read, it requires lot's of good taste to know how to write it neatly
15:19	gnuvince	Very interesting language, very smart creator, but I have problems designing a solution with stacks
15:19	kib2	gnuvince: nice, thanks a lot.
15:19	hiredman	clojurebot: what is the latest revision?
15:19	clojurebot	what is the latest revision is 1144
15:19	rhickey	yeah, I just can't think that (stack) way all the time
15:19	danlarkin	postfix syntax makes me think of the computer lab from university in which we had to write projects in postscript... bad memories
15:19	hiredman	hmm
15:20	gnuvince	I once tried to write map in Factor
15:20	kib2	gnuvince: I totally agree
15:20	technomancy	did factor move off or on to the JVM?
15:20	gnuvince	It's a piece of cake in any applicative language; in Factor, it was very hard.
15:20	kib2	technomancy: off
15:20	gnuvince	technomancy: it was implemented in Java originally, it's now only in C.
15:20	technomancy	ah, interesting
15:20	gnuvince	The Java version isn't supported anymore.
15:25	Lau_of_DK	gnuvince: why this fascination with stack ?
15:27	gnuvince	Lau_of_DK: my fascination or in general?
15:28	Lau_of_DK	in general, what do these guys seek to accomplish with this focus on stack ?
15:28	gnuvince	Lau_of_DK: it's another way to organize a program, and it has some advantages over applicative languages.
15:29	Lau_of_DK	How so?
15:31	gnuvince	For instance, you read it from left-to-right instead of inner-to-outer. It's easy to return multiple values, just push them onto the stack. It also makes combining words (functions) that return multiple values and consume multiple values easier.
15:32	notallama	meddling with continuations seems like it'd be trivial.
15:32	Lau_of_DK	Thanks gnuvince
15:32	kib2	Lau_of_DK: stack is a simple concept, but you can make really beautiful things with it, ie look at the Postscript language
15:32	Lau_of_DK	I'll have a look see
15:33	Chousuke	hm
15:33	gnuvince	Lau_of_DK: look at the elasticdog posts on Factor
15:33	Lau_of_DK	I read it
15:33	notallama	in my c class, my assignments generally have to produce postscript as output. i quite like it. most of my class does not.
15:33	gnuvince	Lau_of_DK: ok
15:34	Lau_of_DK	gnuvince: To me, it just looks like a dumb way to work with data, forcing a complexity on you which the language should actually remove
15:37	gnuvince	I wouldn't call it dumb, although I would agree that it imposes a cognitive load on the programmer that we could do without.
15:38	danlarkin	Oh jeez... just ran the numbers on this calculation I'm doing. At the current rate it'll finish in 6 years :-o Time to refactor
15:38	gnuvince	danlarkin: what calculation is that?
15:38	Lau_of_DK	gnuvince: ok, what if we do this (def dumb "force a cognitive load on a programmer")
15:38	Lau_of_DK	Would you say its dumb then ?
15:38	Lau_of_DK	:)
15:38	Chousuke	all languages do that to an extent :P
15:39	Lau_of_DK	hehe
15:39	danlarkin	gnuvince: something for work, 191 million calculations + store to the DB
15:40	gnuvince	danlarkin: heh :)
15:40	nsinghal	I have a vector (def v [4 5 6 7]) what is the function to remove value 6 from the vector?
15:40	Lau_of_DK	filter?
15:40	danlarkin	gnuvince: and my boss thought this was going to be nightly cronjob :)
15:40	Lau_of_DK	(doc filter)
15:40	clojurebot	Returns a lazy seq of the items in coll for which (pred item) returns true. pred must be free of side-effects.; arglists ([pred coll])
15:40	gnuvince	Lau_of_DK: I wouldn't do this in the first place, I'd use a more appropriate var name ;)
15:40	Chouser	nsinghal: vectors only grow/shrink effeciently on the right-end
15:41	gnuvince	danlarkin: are you under a strict NDA, or can you tell us what these calculations are?
15:41	Chouser	(remove #{6} [4 5 6 7]) ==> (4 5 7) ...but that returns a seq
15:42	Chouser	nsinghal: you can wrap it in (vec ...) to build a new vector from the results, but that's O(n)
15:43	nsinghal	i probably use map where i am using vector - that list will really be changing frequently
15:43	notallama	a c style language force a load on programmers and compilers without much of any benefit. a stack language puts a load on humans, but very little on the computer, so it allows you to reason about what parts of the code generation you can automate, much like a lisp, but with some differences.
15:44	Chouser	nsinghal: 'remove' returns a lazy seq, which should work nicely if you're passing in a lazy seq from 'map'
15:45	danlarkin	gnuvince: can't really say much, just a domain-specific algorithm designed by the client. At least it can be written as a pure function and easily parallelized
15:45	gnuvince	danlarkin: ok
15:46	nsinghal	Chouser - thx i will try to change my vector and use other data structure
15:46	Chouser	nsinghal: if you're doing a lot off adding/removing from the middle you might like a hash-set or sorted-set
15:47	Lau_of_DK	Does anyone else wonder a little about CGrandes latest blogpost/ understand why it is so ?
15:47	nsinghal	i will read up on hash-set and sorted-set - never used them
15:57	kib2	I just buy "Programming with Clojure". Hoping it's a good book.
15:57	technomancy	it is
15:57	kib2	technomancy: thanks
16:06	AWizzArd	http://pragprog.com/podcasts/show/24
16:08	RSchulz	kib2: The book is definitely good, even though it's just beta 3, right now. And you can find the author here and on the Clojure Google Group / mailing list.
16:08	kib2	whaoo...my old "clojure.jar" was 1.18 Mo, it's now 1.80 Mo : I should have missed a lot of new things !
16:09	kib2	RSchulz: yes, from what I'm currently reading, it misses some chapters, but the first 5 are here :)
16:09	RSchulz	Stuart expects the next beta fairly soon.
16:09	RSchulz	He knows we're chomping at the bit.
16:09	danlarkin	kib2: what's an Mo?
16:10	RSchulz	Megabyte
16:10	RSchulz	In French...
16:10	danlarkin	ah
16:10	RSchulz	Megaoctet
16:10	danlarkin	I see
16:10	kib2	danlarkin: MegaOctet
16:12	danlarkin	octet makes a lot more sense than byte
16:13	RSchulz	Especially since there are computers out there with, say, 10-bit bytes.
16:13	RSchulz	Univac is 36-bit word, 9-bit byte.
16:13	notallama	it also sounds cooler.
16:13	RSchulz	I don't know if they're still made, though.
16:13	RSchulz	We had one back in school.
16:14	RSchulz	Batch mode. Card readers. Very old-school.
16:14	RSchulz	And there are nybbles, too: 4 bits.
16:18	danlarkin	we read about univacs in history books in school :)
16:23	kib2	is someone here using a Win XP os with Clojure ? I've got problems in setting my CLASSPATH correctly (from the book)
16:23	mehrheit	danlarkin: is that an emacs variant?
16:24	Chouser	I don't think there's currently a foo such that (foo + [1 2 3 4 5]) ==> (3 6 10 15), right?
16:24	danlarkin	mehrheit: ha! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIVAC_I
16:24	RSchulz	kib2: Are you using Windows-style CLASSPATH syntax? Semicolon separators, in particular?
16:24	kib2	RSchulz: yes
16:24	RSchulz	What symptom are you getting?
16:25	mehrheit	danlarkin: well, the plural sounds similar
16:26	kib2	RSchulz: "could not find the main class : clojure.lang.Repl"
16:26	RSchulz	mehrheit: Univac is a mainframe computer from the 70s and before.
16:26	rhickey	Chouser: no
16:26	RSchulz	(or maybe _was_)
16:26	RSchulz	How sure are you that your CLASSPATH is correct?
16:26	RSchulz	And are you sure it's established as an environment variable?
16:27	RSchulz	Are you using CMD.exe or Cygwin?
16:27	kib2	The book told me to make a bat file with "SET CLASSPATH=/jars/clojure.jar;/jars/clojure-contrib.jar;etc." but what is "/jars" supposed to be ?
16:27	Chouser	rhickey: ok, thanks.
16:27	kib2	RSchulz: CMD.exe (via Console2)
16:27	rhickey	Chouser: http://www.zvon.org/other/haskell/Outputprelude/scanl_f.html
16:28	RSchulz	That's just an example You have to use the actual drive letter and directory in which you have your Clojure JAR file.
16:28	RSchulz	I strongly recommend Cygwin for programmers using Windows.
16:29	notallama	windows powershell looks like it's fairly non-horrible too.
16:29	kib2	RSchulz: sure, that's what I've did but it does not work.
16:29	Chouser	rhickey: excellent, thanks.
16:29	RSchulz	Check by taking the file names from the CLASSPATH and checking that you can access them by that name.
16:30	rhickey	Chouser: deja vu: http://paste.lisp.org/display/68046#2
16:30	notallama	kib2: does it work with the -cp flag, instead of setting the global classpath?
16:30	Chouser	sheesh
16:31	RSchulz	It should.
16:32	hiredman	clojurebot: scanl is http://paste.lisp.org/display/68046#2
16:32	clojurebot	Ok.
16:33	hiredman	stupid functional programming stuffs being so useful
16:33	hiredman	Chouser: that inits thing you mentioned yesterday is now used in clojurebot for fuzzy matching stuff
16:33	hiredman	the doc string for the inits function says "this is chouser's fault"
16:34	Chouser	hiredman: gah. I can't remember a thing. Did I post an implementation or something?
16:35	hiredman	you were looking for inits, then remembered you had looked for it before
16:35	hiredman	then pasted a url for irc logs, where you had pasted a link to an implementation
16:35	Chouser	oh, right. but it was my implementation, not rhickey's. I coulda sworn he wrote a better one...
16:36	hiredman	clojurebot: please pontificate on the subject of multimethods
16:36	clojurebot	multimethods is what separates the boy from the man.
16:37	RSchulz	Maybe you need some pithy noun-oriented vs. verb-oriented programming aphorism in there...
16:37	lisppaste8	kib2 pasted "batch file" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71603
16:38	technomancy	man... the next time I do anything like that I'm flagging it with huge FIXME/HACK comments.
16:38	kib2	I've now got the REPL, but typing "(require :verbose 'clojure.contrib.str-utils)" raise an error
16:38	RSchulz	Some of the nastiest bugs I've written have been in "mostly immutable" data structures. That 1% mutability can kill you...
16:39	technomancy	RSchulz: actually this is not a clojure project, it's just a project that would be way simpler in clojure.
16:39	hiredman	kib2: you don't have clojure.contrib in the cp
16:39	technomancy	this is my jruby stuff from work
16:39	RSchulz	And the bugs I mentioned were in Java code. (Of course.)
16:39	technomancy	heh
16:39	hiredman	-cp %CLASSPATH%;%CLOJURE_DIR%
16:39	technomancy	the worst is when the problem is in your test fixtures and you think it's in the implementation
16:39	hiredman	and you are playing pretty fast and loose with / v. \
16:39	kib2	hiredman: I've got a line "set CLASSPATH=%CLOJURE_DIR%\clojure-contrib.jar"
16:40	hiredman	kib2: yeah, well, that is being ignored for whatever reason
16:41	RSchulz	You might try sticking an "echo" in front of the Java invocation so you can see precisely what's being passed.
16:41	hiredman	clojurebot: how can I have a "jar directory" where I can put all my libs and have java pick them up?
16:41	clojurebot	a is b
16:42	RSchulz	Don't let an objectivist hear you say that.
16:42	hiredman	curse you fuzzy matching
16:42	hiredman	clojurebot: how can I have a "jar directory" where I can put all my libs and have java pick them up?
16:42	clojurebot	a is b
16:42	RSchulz	Is clojurebot speaking without being spoken to?
16:42	hiredman	hmmm
16:42	hiredman	no
16:43	RSchulz	Oh. There it is.
16:43	hiredman	clojurebot: how can I have some "jar directory" where I can put all my libs and have java pick them up?
16:43	clojurebot	jar directory is -Djava.ext.dirs=$LIBS
16:43	kib2	hiredman: "cp %CLASSPATH%;%CLOJURE_DIR%" --> my system tells me it needs more arguments
16:43	hiredman	so the fuzzy matching needs tuning
16:44	ozy`	hint for people using clojure on a mac: put the jar in /Library/Java/Extensions
16:44	RSchulz	kib2: Is that an invocation of "cp"?
16:44	kib2	RSchulz: yes
16:44	hiredman	kib2: just do "java -Djava.ext.dirs=%CLOJURE_DIR%" and forget about your classpath
16:45	RSchulz	Well, you need to give individual names, not PATH-like syntax and a destination, of course.
16:46	hiredman	RSchulz: the java.ext.dirs= thing works with a directory
16:46	hiredman	and you just dump your jars in there
16:46	RSchulz	Yes, that's handy.
16:47	RSchulz	Is there a provision for multiple directories using -Djava.ext.dirs? Comma-separated list, maybe?
16:47	hiredman	I think that is correct
16:47	RSchulz	Or maybe the local platform's native PATH-style syntax?
16:48	hiredman	colon seperated
16:48	RSchulz	But colon-separated would be a big problem on Windows!
16:49	lisppaste8	kib2 annotated #71603 with "fixed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71603#1
16:49	kib2	Finally got it ! :)
16:52	RSchulz	The answer is here: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/guide/extensions/spec.html
16:52	RSchulz	It is indeed the platform-specific PATH separator.
16:53	RSchulz	kib2: What was amiss?
16:57	hiredman	ugh
16:58	RSchulz	You can't kill Java. It's immortal.
16:58	technomancy	that or undead.
16:58	kib2	RSchulz: I don't know really. I've "set CLOJURE_CONTRIB=" then "java -cp %CLOJURE_CONTRIB%;%CLOJURE_JAR% clojure.lang.Script %1" and it works
16:59	technomancy	RSchulz: the two are easily confused
16:59	RSchulz	technomancy: Yeah. It's as likley the latter.
17:00	RSchulz	Well, we need the JVM, after all.
17:00	technomancy	right. I've aliased "java" to "jvm" in my shell just to avoid confusion between the runtime and the language
17:09	hiredman	ugh, one of the first things I wrote in clojure was a xmpp repl bot, and I am revisting xmpp, but now the smack library just wants to sit there and throw exceptions
17:43	olgen	hi, i have a small problem with namespaces in my clojure installation
17:43	olgen	i downloaded the svn version (rev. 1144)
17:44	olgen	i have a problem getting access to the names in the clojure namespce
17:44	olgen	which boils down to:
17:45	olgen	Dingo:~/local/clojure/trunk jacobm$ java -cp clojure.jar clojure.lang.Repl
17:45	olgen	Clojure
17:45	olgen	user=> (clojure/refer 'clojure)
17:45	olgen	java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: clojure (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
17:45	olgen	user=>
17:45	olgen	anyone knows what i am doing wrong?
17:46	danlarkin	clojure.core
17:46	hiredman	clojure is now clojure.core
17:48	olgen	user=> (clojure/refer 'clojure.core)
17:48	olgen	java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: clojure (NO_SOURCE_FILE:7)
17:48	olgen	i guess thats not what i should do?
17:50	dudleyf	olgen: No, clojure.core is already 'refer'ed for you
17:51	olgen	yes it works in the repl, but when i try working in my own namespace, i loose access to the clojure functions in the clojure.core namespace
17:51	olgen	i read somewhere that i then had to (clojure/refer 'clojure) after the (in-ns 'mynamespace)
17:51	dudleyf	olgen: If you're creating a new namespace, you should use the ns macro
17:52	dudleyf	(doc ns)
17:52	clojurebot	Sets ns to the namespace named by name (unevaluated), creating it if needed. references can be zero or more of: (:refer-clojure ...) (:require ...) (:use ...) (:import ...) (:load ...) (:gen-class) with the syntax of refer-clojure/require/use/import/load/gen-class respectively, except the arguments are unevaluated and need not be quoted. (:gen-class ...), when supplied, defaults to :name corresponding to th
17:52	olgen	oki thanks
17:52	dudleyf	The clojure/refer stuff is out of date
17:52	olgen	ok
17:54	dudleyf	olgen: BTW, the refer function is clojure.core/refer now
17:55	dudleyf	namespace/name
17:55	olgen	oki, thanks for the help guys
17:55	dudleyf	np
18:07	kib2	good night, thanks for all
18:38	technomancy	does the clojure-mode author hang out in here?
18:39	dudleyf	technomancy: Not that I know of
19:26	hiredman	clojurebot: well?
19:26	clojurebot	Excuse me?
19:27	danlarkin	clojurebot: get your act together
19:27	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithsc�al?
19:31	clojurebot	svn rev 1145; made RT.DEFAULT_COMPARATOR use Util.compare
19:33	duck1123	did clojurebot just die?
19:33	duck1123	I have my parts hidden
19:39	RSchulz	clojurebot: how many things do you know?
19:39	clojurebot	Excuse me?
19:39	RSchulz	clojurebot: what do you know?
19:39	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
19:39	RSchulz	clojurebot: how much do you know?
19:39	clojurebot	I know 80 things
19:39	hiredman	clojurebot: latest?
19:39	clojurebot	latest is 1145
19:39	technomancy	sounds like he's suffered a blow to the head
19:39	RSchulz	I think clojurebot's alive and ... speaking.
19:46	clojurebot	svn rev 1145; made RT.DEFAULT_COMPARATOR use Util.compare
19:46	hiredman	clojurebot: now keep doing that
19:46	clojurebot	Excuse me?
19:51	clojurebot	svn rev 1145; made RT.DEFAULT_COMPARATOR use Util.compare
19:53	hiredman	uh
20:02	danlarkin	every 5 minutes?
20:02	danlarkin	:)
20:03	danlarkin	oh, nevermind I guess that was over 5 minutes ago
20:12	gnuvince_	Those videos are awesome :)
20:12	duck1123	took a while to download
20:13	duck1123	the direct download was faster than the torrent
20:19	RSchulz	Watching? Lectures?? SICP??? Where do I find these lectures?
20:20	danlarkin	ditto
20:22	RSchulz	Perhaps this? http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/legal-info.html
20:23	RSchulz	Or, maybe, this: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/
20:23	RSchulz	Oh, NO, Mr. Wizzard!!!
20:41	danlarkin	I dig the opening music
20:46	mortis`	thos are good lectures, the book is good too
20:52	RSchulz	danlarkin: You need to check out Wendy / Walter Carlos' recordings!
20:54	RSchulz	Or, perhaps, more conventional recordings of Bach's music.
20:54	RSchulz	Bach is, of course, eternal!
20:54	danlarkin	OH I hear about him/her on NPR the other day
20:55	danlarkin	I can't recall on which program
20:55	RSchulz	Really? I missed that one. I have vinyl of both "Switched-On Bach" and "Switched-On Bach II" (from my high school days)
20:56	danlarkin	ever listen to p d q bach aka Peter Schickele?
20:57	RSchulz	Yeah. Once upon a time. Not lately.
20:58	danlarkin	I love his sense of humor
21:02	RSchulz	Glenn Gould once wrote of Wendy's Bach recordings (incidentally on the back of her Well Tempered Synthesizer LP), "Carlos's realization of the Fourth Brandenburg Concerto is, to put it bluntly, the finest performance of any of the Brandenburgs--live, canned, or intuited--I've ever heard."
21:03	RSchulz	I listened to those albums over and over. I'm glad how reverently I treated my LPs. They're probably still in good condition, though I lost track of my last turntable many years ago...
21:04	RSchulz	You think if Bach were reincarnated today he'd be a Lisp programmer?
21:05	danlarkin	I doubt he'd be playing music
21:06	RSchulz	Well, not as a profession.
21:07	RSchulz	I learned at least one two-part invention. It helped me realize that music was _not_ my future...
21:07	RSchulz	But music does seem to have very salient effects on young people's brains.
21:12	Chouser	rhickey: typo at http://clojure.org/atoms "needs" should be "need"
21:32	rhickey	Chouser: fixed - thanks
21:47	larrytheliquid	http://clojure.org/vars "provides 3 distinct mechanisms for doing so in a controlled manner - Vars, Refs and Agents. "
21:47	larrytheliquid	^ should be 4 now
21:51	jeremy__	larrytheliquid: really? what's the fourth?
21:51	Chouser	jeremy__: http://clojure.org/atoms
21:52	jeremy__	ah thanks
22:15	duck1123	jhtff7
22:15	duck1123	huybg7uhuy7buyughb y ihgyibgho g cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc
22:17	duck1123	I am sorry about that, my daughter got ahold of the computer
22:18	notallama	my frend's cat sent me a screenshot of her desktop over msn once. it was pretty fancy.
22:48	johnwayner	tomhickey: on http://clojure.org/api the section for (gensym) has "the prefix is 'G<u>'." which is causing the entire rest of the page to be underlined. Probably want <u>
23:29	hiredman	clojurebot: please explain map to me
23:29	clojurebot	map
23:29	hiredman	hmm
23:29	hiredman	clojurebot: tell me about map
23:29	clojurebot	map
23:31	hiredman	clojurebot: tell me about map
23:31	clojurebot	map is LAZY
23:31	hiredman	oh
23:56	danlarkin	nice